President-elect Trump recently outlined his goals for reforming public education in the early days of his administration. Number five on the list? “Bringing back prayer to our schools.”
Prayer is currently not prohibited in public schools, but it's also not mandatory. Students are free to pray privately, and religious clubs are a common sight on many campuses. But many have interpreted the president-elect’s statement as an intention to bring back mandatory morning prayer sessions to schools across America - which were ruled unconstitutional in 1962.
Should prayer come back to public schools, and what does that mean for Christians and non-Christians alike?
The History of School Prayer
For centuries, Christian prayer was a common sight in schools across the United States. From the nation’s founding until the mid-20th century, many schools opened the day with a public prayer and a reading from the Holy Bible.
This wasn’t always left up to the state, schools, or individual teachers - By the 1950s, a dozen states legally required a daily prayer in classrooms, with another dozen allowing "optional" Bible readings.
The first significant pushback against school prayer was led by Catholics in the 1860s and 1870s, who objected not to prayer itself, but to the chosen text. In an effort to convert Catholic kids to Protestantism, many schools adopted the Protestant Bible - which Catholics naturally objected to.
Two Supreme Court cases effectively ended school prayer in the United States. The first was in 1962, when the New York Board of Regents created a prayer intended for use in the state's public schools. Although students were under no obligation to recite the prayer, its implementation in at least one school district sparked controversy. Steven Engel, a Jewish parent and co-founder of the New York Civil Liberties Union, along with other parents from Long Island, filed a lawsuit challenging the prayer, arguing that it constituted a violation of freedom of religion under the First and Fourteenth Amendments. This case, Engel v. Vitale, made its way to the Supreme Court, where the Court ruled that the mandatory prayer was indeed unconstitutional.
The second was Abington School District v. Schemp, in which Unitarian Universalist Edward Schemp sued his son's Pennsylvania school district over mandatory daily Bible readings and prayers. In his majority opinion, Justice Tom Clark wrote of the mandatory prayers that "they are religious exercises... in violation of the command of the First Amendment that the Government maintain strict neutrality, neither aiding nor opposing religion."
The Push to Bring God Back to School
In recent years, a number of activists, educators, and politicians have been increasingly emboldened in their efforts to bring Christianity back to public schools. And from the Pacific Northwest to the deep south, they’ve largely been successful.
- A Washington state football coach won the right to pray on the 50-yard line after the Supreme Court sided with him
- Oklahoma is putting Bibles in every public school classroom
- Louisiana requires the Ten Commandments in every public school classroom (though this was recently halted by a judge)
And most recently, Oklahoma Education Superintendent Ryan Walters recorded a video of himself praying for President-elect Trump - and mandated every classroom in the state play it for students.
In many instances, these efforts to inject Christianity into schools are done under the legal justification that these documents are important to the nation’s founding, history, and ethics - an argument many critics don’t buy.
Is Trump’s plan just ripping the Band-Aid off? And is that a good thing?
What do you think? Should mandatory prayer return to the classroom, and will President Trump be the one to bring it back? Or is this simply, as many critics argue, Christian nationalism?
243 comments
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Mark Stephen Edwards
Donald J. Trump is an unusual character: a womanizer (maybe worse), a con artist, and a loving father. He is a sinner and a human being.
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Daniel Gray
Oh, so Biden showering with his own daughter (according to her and her own diary) Allowing his son Hunter to carry on an affair with his dead son's widow, refusing to acknowledge his own grandchild, lying to the American people and almost bankrupting them (remember that when Trump was voted out of office in 2020, the national debt was high, BUT it was able to be managed (22 Trillion) And now we have just crossed into 35 Trillion meaning according to the math and the records from the US Treasury, Biden put over 15 Trillion dollars onto the debt.
But I guess this is all ok with you
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Mark Stephen Edwards
A vigorous rant. I bet you feel relief.
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Daniel Gray
since when is stating fact and proved fact now according to you as being classified as a rant?
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Mark Stephen Edwards
Oh, to be precise, your rant was an emotional catharsis, effluent.
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Wilberta M. Berry
Daniel Gray, you do know that the creature was convicted of state crimes. You do know SCOTUS has no jurisdiction over state crimes. You are a prime example as to why schools are necessary for secular education. Religion must be taught in churches and Bible studies. You need to revisit your education because, you have zero facts in all of your discourse.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry but the SCOTUS DOES have jurisdiction when its appealed to them, it goes local court, state court of appeals, state supreme Court, federal court of appeals, US Supreme Court. Unless its classified as an emergent need and then they can bypass all the other courts but this is very difficult to get.
And sorry for you but this is fact and is taught in every prelaw and law school in the US.
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Wilberta M. Berry
One must also be mindful that in America with freedom of religion written into our Constitution, there are many religions that do not adhere too, or believe in school prayers not to mention, who's prayers. We have Muslims, Buddhist, Mormons, J Witnesses, Agnostics, Atheist and people who adhere to being Spiritual without identifying with Christians. Are they to be forced into school prayers?. This whole this is ludicrous.
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Mark Stephen Edwards
My conservative Luther synod does not want school prayer for obvious and constitutional reasons.
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Thomas G. Satterly
Should mandatory prayer return to the classroom? Nope.
Will President Trump be the one to bring it back? Perhaps
Or is this simply, as many critics argue, Christian nationalism? Simple christian nationalism? I wonder what that is.
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Mark Stephen Edwards
What about the Home Schooled pagans? (Satire)
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Rev. BH
I want an equal but opposite mandate forcing churches to promote STEM from the alter. No separation of Church and State, in both directions, right?
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Mark Stephen Edwards
STEM is important, perhaps No. 1. However, improved literacy and appreciation of the subject are needed first.
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Rev. BH
Mark, my comment was obviously satirical. But if you want to teach literacy in church too, (or anything useful) I'm all for it.
Prayer and the commandments in school, the Three R's in church - only fair, right? ;^)
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Mark Stephen Edwards
Hey, Rev. My bad. I botched the phrase using "SUBJECT are (is) needed first." Appreciation and competence in English are (is) first. Oh, alter sounds right. The proper spelling is the altar. What do I know? Very little.
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Rev. BH
My apologies for the misspelling of alter. The failure of Spell Check and my brain.
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Mark Stephen Edwards
Satire once worked well. Today, it only confuses me.
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Anthony Allen King
This is most awesome and should totally be apart of a child's schooling and I think the stories from the new testament should be considered to be taught in early history classes for kids since in fact the Bible is proven history..
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Michael Hunt
The Bible is not proven historical fact.
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Mark Stephen Edwards
Much of textbook history does not pass the Spit test.
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Mark Stephen Edwards
The Torah is a myth. The Old Testament used literary terms most people do not recognize or acknowledge. John Crosson ( Former Christian & Jesus Seminar) explains the New Testament as parables.
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John Ash McCormick
Very glad to see someone agrees that part of the Torah is myth, perhaps Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, all of which are part of the Torah?
A lot more is history, and a lot is Jewish law.
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Rudolph M Garza
Although Thomas Jefferson was a deist, I do not think “separation of church and state meant for the U.S. to be “officially” neutral or atheist. Just over 240 years ago, the American culture was dominated by one form Christianity or another.
Christianity was practiced in both chambers of Congress when America was founded, and the U.S. Capitol was used as a church for many years. The Founding Fathers began the First Continental Congress with prayer and included Christian principles in their state's affairs. They also proclaimed days of fasting, prayer, and thanksgiving during the Revolutionary War. Real history and their culture speaks in the 1700’s volumes. What the founding fathers didn’t want see was another government imposed Anglican Church as oppressive as it was in England.
Since Christianity remains the dominant religion of American culture, I do not see why “prayer” in school should be problem, especially if there is an allowance made for others to pray in accordance with whatever religion they follow.
This all or nothing attitude is immature and leads to oppression. Any government threads on dangerous ground when “freedom” from one thing leads to oppressive or restrictive laws to eliminate it.
I maintain a free society must leave room for compromise, tolerance and respect for ALL if it to succeed as a more harmonious society with a resolution that all Americans can be happy with.
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Mark Stephen Edwards
Thanks for your generous opinion.
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Cameron Lewis
I believe in the total separation of church and state PERIOD. The Bible should only be taught in the same context as any other book of myth. I know many of you here view the pages of the bible as a truth, but alas it has been corrupted so bad it is nothing but fantasy driven by politics. We as Reverends job is to help our flocks understand spiritual being in relationship to the planet, the stars, nature and other humans.
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Mark Stephen Edwards
In England, the Bible is taught as a form of literature and tradition. Myth is essential to the Torah, and the New Testament is replete with Jesus' parables. I'm just saying.
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John Ash McCormick
Unless I am badly misinformed as to the past 1000 years of history, in England the head of the church is the nominal head of the government.
Yes, yes, I know how it all works, but traditionally since Henry VIII the monarch has been considered the head of the CoE which is definitely the official religion.
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Coleen Gay Walker
Can I pray to Allah? How about Satan? Do I have to pray to the Demiurge or can I pray to a tree? If all of that doesn't sound just dandy to you, the we should keep formal prayer out of the public schools.
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Mark Stephen Edwards
In the privacy of your mind, do as you please.
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Stephen James Oder
We do not, and never will, at the great peril of theocrats, live in a theocracy.
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John Ash McCormick
Rev. Oder wonderful thought but history, including that of the past few decades show it is nothing but a wish. We are rapidly moving from a representative democracy (The US was never a democracy, read the Constitution, especially the parts about elected representatives) and unfortunately liberals saw how Europe was going in a non-religious way and thought the U.S. could never become a theocracy. So they/we, let up, coasted along on our comfy feelings and the religious right slowly took over elected offices, starting with the ones few people wanted like school boards. Almost all anti-science is religious based, fear of people learning that not every word of the Bible (whatever their particular one is) is factual. If you don't think we are entering the final stages of a full blown theocracy just look at the topics in these blog discussions, or at how virtually every, every single one, of the current political arguments are religious based. Most religions are totally against female participation other than as wombs and kitchen slaves. Just ask any honest nun. And not just Catholics. How many female S. Baptist bishops are there? ZERO, females aren't permitted to talk to god on their own.
So most strict/fanatical religions fight against women having any power even over their own bodies.
if debating abortion rights, prayer in public school, ten commandments in public buildings and schools, etc. aren't signs of a THEOCRACY, what would you consider an indication?
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Kenneth Kling
No ..... prayer shouldn't be mandatory ......... providing a "Moment of Silence" to say a prayer of your choice, or not, would be ok.
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Rev. Kameelah Stewart
If this were concerning religious schools that are represented by the faith of the religion such as Catholic Schools etc, then yes under that particular religious doctrine. But in a place where many religious children from any different religious households then no. There is a saying amongst Muslims that state "I do not worship what you worship. Nor are you worshippers of what I worship. Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship. Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship. For you is your religion, and for me is my religion.” No one is compelled to believe in God, he wants us to come to him freely that is why that we are the only creatures that God has given "Choice" to in the first place. We are a people of many faiths none is to take precedence over another because all faiths should lead to God. And the complications of having prayer in schools will lead to Which one? Muslim, Jewish, Baptist, Hinduism, I mean seriously? Thought we were supposed to separate of Church and State?
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Mark Stephen Edwards
Why do my 4 posts have (delete comment) after them?
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John Ash McCormick
Rev. Edwards, it is part of the software, that option is beside every ones own posts it isn't singling you out.
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Mark Stephen Edwards
Thank you for setting me straight.
M. Edwards
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Mark Stephen Edwards
School prayer must not be compulsory for obvious reasons.
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Terry Trixxie Smith
From all the hate filled criticism here in the comments, is disheartening to think we're all ordained ministers.
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Grand Poobah M
I brought my popcorn as I read through this post........should be golden.
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Daniel Todd Kamm
And I agree... for me, absolute separation of Church and State; both states and churches that violate should be sanctioned.
Render unto g-d, and render unto "Caesar...."
I can never figure out why that is not the measurement of a healthy multi-cultural society.
These churches that take political stances from the pulpit, direct or implied, should be taxed per the law when they step outside the "church" which is a very wide definition. (Examples: pro-life signs in the church school-yards, church-school-organized rallies with children protesting various social issues, etc. : this is politics, not worship.)
States too, should be sanctioned for exceeding their authority and imposing religious imperatives, including who to pray to, how to pray to, what to pray to , what to display, and making the playing field constitutionally level.
Sorry I forgot that the legislatures, the courts and many administrations have handed over their constitutional duties, subverting the Constitution... and eventually their own freedoms... and for what? A snake oil salesman. Please.
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George Pitagorsky
Prayer to God, of any denomination, does not belong in public schools. A moment or two of silent aspiration for the well-being of all, silent prayer to any deity one chooses, or just silence would be a great substitute for mandatory (Christian) prayer.
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Mary
But Which god? "Our Dark Lord, Who art in Hell Unholy be thy name, Thy Empire come, Thine own will be done, On Earth as it is in The Inferno."
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Mark Stephen Edwards
Sehr gut, but that logical remedy may not work for everyone.
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Delayne Charles Smith
The thing about reintroducing prayer into the classroom, is that when it was prevalent in the classrooms it was based out of one Bible it was known as the King James version most all public schools acknowledge that version unless you was in a private school such as possibly a Lutheran or some other Protestant religion but nowadays they have Rewritten the Bible from what it was originally saying they've changed the wording so it's debatable. I believe what's more important is having students more knowledgeable in the areas of constitutional law and our rights as citizens of the nation where they live. They should be more informed as to how the political system and economic system work, because it's the two most important things in their futures their money and their freedoms
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James Bullard
Re-written from what the KJV was originally saying? The King James version is not "the original bible". It is an English translation of the Latin Vulgate Bible which is the Catholic Bible of the middle ages with changes to make it compatible to Protestant belief. The Vulgate Bible is not the same as the Eastern Orthodox Bible and all of them are collections of anchient books mostly written in Greek or Hebrew. The choice of which of those books and the translations of them was made to accord with the beliefs of those in the ruling heirarchy of their particular branch of Christianity. "The Bible" did not exist before the 300s when Empiror Constantine decided that a new religion that was percolating would make a good tool for unifying his empire so he commanded the bishops of the disparate branches to get their act together and come up with one religion. There was never an "origional bible". It has been in flux as far back as written records go.
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John Ash McCormick
and, of course, the KJV bible was created to follow the beliefs of, guess who, could it be King James? He might have had an excellent reason to have a bible which tended to promote obedience to authority. Does anyone else here ever read history? Rev. Bullard obviously does.
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Anisahoni
James, along with your posted historical facts, it appears the ancient Sumericans who wrote about creation, the creators of homo sapiens sapiens were the Anunnaki. Many of the stories of the OT are acutually plagerized from the Sumerian Clay Tablets, written thousands of years prior. Zechariah Sitchen interpreted the tablets along with other linguists and the stories are amazingly written later in the OT with names somewhat diffferent. Just read Genesis, "Let us manke man in our image" for starters.
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Mark Stephen Edwards
Show the children movies about religions.
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Mary
"Our Dark Lord, Who art in Hell Unholy be thy name, Thy Empire come, Thine own will be done, On Earth as it is in The Inferno."
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Mark Stephen Edwards
DCS
Do not scare the schoolchildren, please.
M.S. Edwards
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Daniel Todd Kamm
Donald Trump is a snake oil salesman and a charlatan. And he is a convicted felon: as by a jury of his peers. Full stop.
Common People re-elected him according to their own needs and perceptions. Fine. They have a lot of irons in the fire, and there is no fire.
Enter the legislative and judicial branches.
Neither the legislatures nor the courts seem to have any stomach for their constitutional duties, short of a re-election bid, to check and balance the executive branch which has handed Trump and other criminals alleged or adjudicated, free reign... nothing like criminals in high offices.
That presents a problem much bigger than school prayer.
I have worked in many schools over the years as an embedded mental health provider, and I feel confident that parents, administrators, teachers etc. will not endorse. confirm, or conform, at least in my city and school district to any such measures.
We have prayerful people here, but prayer is kept in the context in which it is appropriate in a public school. Personal.
Of course, I can't speak to all schools / districts, especially where people feel the need to enforce their own beliefs on everyone, disavow the individuals who do not conform, who teach a discredited version of american and other histories, and who are more than willing to not only surrender themselves, but others, to a very disreputable state.
Though we are quickly approaching it, we do not want to be known as the "Disreputable United States of America."
Okay... now can someone recommend giving all the states we took from Mexico after the war back to Mexico?
Peace, out tk
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Mark Stephen Edwards
Convicted by his peers; not so. Trump has few peers. Again, his peers did not convict him in court.
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John Ash McCormick
Peers, as anyone should know, stems from British law and merely means lords get tried by lords and commoners by commoners. Everyone in the US is, like it or not, a commoner and hence all trials in the US are by peers except in the military which is a very different situation.
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Mark Stephen Edwards
Thanks for the light and for being correct, as far as I can guess.
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Mark Stephen Edwards
However, God built inequality and predation and other things that we eschew into His creation. All are equal under the law, but a different measure judges the rich and the elites in court.
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Kenneth Kling
Wow Mr. Kamm-Are you OK? .......Phew ........ So many untrue statements in a row .......
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Mary
"Our Dark Lord, Who art in Hell Unholy be thy name, Thy Empire come, Thine own will be done, On Earth as it is in The Inferno."
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Daniel Gray
repeating your myth twice does not make it so.
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Daniel Todd Kamm
Donald Trump is a snake oil salesman and a charlatan. And he is a convicted felon: as by a jury of his peers. Full stop.
Common People re-elected him according to their own needs and perceptions. Fine. They have a lot of irons in the fire, and there is no fire.
Enter the legislative and judicial branches.
Neither the legislatures nor the courts seem to have any stomach for their constitutional duties, short of a re-election bid, to check and balance the executive branch which has handed Trump and other criminals alleged or adjudicated, free reign... nothing like criminals in high offices.
That presents a problem much bigger than school prayer.
I have worked in many schools over the years as an embedded mental health provider, and I feel confident that parents, administrators, teachers etc. will not endorse. confirm, or conform, at least in my city and school district to any such measures.
We have prayerful people here, but prayer is kept in the context in which it is appropriate in a public school. Personal.
Of course, I can't speak to all schools / districts, especially where people feel the need to enforce their own beliefs on everyone, disavow the individuals who do not conform, who teach a discredited version of american and other histories, and who are more than willing to not only surrender themselves, but others, to a very disreputable state.
Though we are quickly approaching it, we do not want to be known as the "Disreputable United States of America."
Okay... now can someone recommend giving all the states we took from Mexico after the war back to Mexico?
Peace, out tk
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Daniel Gray
you have to be sentenced to be a convicted felon, and he was not. Full stop.
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Tom Herman
NO! It doesn't get any simpler than that. There is separation of church and state for a reason.
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Daniel Gray
No there is no such thing as Separation of church and state. Constitution was ratified in 1787 and the very first mention of this myth was in 1802 a good 15 years AFTERWORD. Now in every Constitution ever printed it clearly states that the ONLY way for you to change the constitution is by a constitutional amendment. Now if you can kindly show us when this myth was ever presented and sent to the states and passed and sent back to Congress for their approval and then signed by the President, I am sure people would appreciate it as that is the ONLY way this myth can be in the Constitution.
Your turn.
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James Bullard
When I was in grade school in the1950s we did not pray. We were schooled in manners, how to show respect for and get along with our fellow humans with the least friction. It is my observation that in the years since then, some Christians have pushed for prayer, the Ten Commandments, etc. in our schools. I haven't seen or heard of other religions doing that but I have seen a backlash from non-Christians and even many Christians.At the same timeit appears that the lessons on basic manners have all but disappeared from our schools and largely from society. We in the US live, like it or not, in a multicultural country and any introduction of religion into our schools will inevitably involve the question of 'whose religion?'. I would rather see a return to manners that help us respect and get along than the divisiveness of trying to indoctinate each other into any particular religion.
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Mary
I went to a Catholic private school 70's and 80's and we never prayed at school. I agree with everything you have said.
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El Gringo
I am guilty too. Reading the comments in today's messages reminded me of two parables that I have used to explain my lack of interest in all these types of arguments. My father died and went to heaven and met St Peter who expressed his admiration for the many good deeds my father had done especially with the children he had encouraged and put on the right path. "But I am sorry you can't come in. You belonged to the wrong church." The second story is the last supper where the disciples started arguing like many of today's churches as to is the most important. Jesus began to wash their feet. By his actions he was showing them that it is not about them. It is about him.
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Noe Domingo Martinez
Bring a prayer back to school may not be a bad thing.
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Mary
Our Dark Lord, Who art in Hell Unholy be thy name, Thy Empire come, Thine own will be done, On Earth as it is in The Inferno.
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Daniel Gray
a moment of silence would allow you to say this to yourself.
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Rev. Carol M Anaski-Figurski
Yes its a great idea. Bring prayer back to the classrooms & add diversity to it. one day a Christian prayer, one day a Jewish prayer, one day a Islam prayer etc. Multi faith based religion has every right to be expressed in the classroom. Are they still doing the pledge of allegiance.?
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JaZe
A prayer does not have to include religious elements.
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James Bullard
- prayer
- 1 of 2
- noun (1)
- ˈprer
- often attributive
- Synonyms of prayer
- 1
- a
- (1)
- an address (such as a petition) to God or a god in word or thought said a prayer for the success of the voyage (2)
- a set order of words used in praying b
- an earnest request or wish 2
- the act or practice of praying to God or a god kneeling in prayer 3
- a religious service consisting chiefly of prayers —often used in plural 4
- something prayed for 5
- a slight chance
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Matthew W Meister
As all politicians frequently do, the former President said a LOT of things to get votes that he has no intention of doing. Whether prayer in schools is one of those, or if he truly intends to reinstate public prayer remains to be seen. If he does, I have a very simple solution. Each day, the prayer should be offered by a different denomination, religion or someone of no particular religious belief. I don't give it two weeks before those who are currently clamoring for prayer in schools come around to separating church and state once and for all. The moment they hear that a Muslim, Jewish, Wiccan, Orthodox, Catholic or any other prayer which is not from their particular background has been broadcast over a loudspeaker to their child, wait and see how fast the protests start!
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Randy Mark Christopherson
I would love to be a fly on that Bible Belt public school classroom wall when the Muslim call to prayer is broadcast over the school announcement system. I can imagine the cries of outrage. Those of us in the know can state in all truth to those who are objecting that 'It is what you voted for; but you didn't think it through to its logical conclusion'.
The constant budget cuts to the public education system led to the degradation of critical thinking. No funding for the arts, but it's okay to toss money at athletic programs (nothing wrong with athleticism or team spirit, but it's fine to build monster-sized stadiums for high school sports? That is a bit over the top).
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Daniel Gray
dream on as that is a school sponsored activity and cannot be done. A moment of silence allows ALL faiths to pray or not depending on their teachings.
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Andrea Helene McCormick
we're going to have a version of the Philadelphia Bible Riots, since these Christians can't agree on what version of their religion is the "right" one.
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Mary
And they never will. If they aren't fighting with non-christians they are fighting with each other.
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Thomas Edwin Peterson
I'm thinking a few minutes of silent contemplation would be good before classes begin. It would be for whatever silent prayer or task that could be accomplished without rising from the seat.
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El Gringo
Comment removed by user.
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Nancy Richards-Marcus
Yes prayer in school is wonderful, it is the foundation of all spiritual traditons and will improve focus, compassion for the fellow student, introspection, and decrease the hate, ramp up the love. Why not? our kids are already rated 26 in the world in terms of education, we have to do something, and directing the focus within is long over due. One Nation Under God.
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Mary
O you, the wisest and fairest of the Angels, God betrayed by destiny and deprived of praise, O Satan, take pity on my long misery!
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Lion on the Beach
So enjoyable to watch and listen to unhappy individuals scream and rant upon things they have no control over.
!) If any child or a group of children wish to pray, you and no one else can stop them.
2) If you have children in public schools, remove them immediately.
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Amber Fry
The question isn't about a moment of silence to chose to pray or not. As long as nobody is singled out for not being Christian or not being religious I don't see a problem with that. It's about being led in a specific religious prayer by mandate that is an issue. That's unconstitutional. No public school should be forced into guided prayer from any one religion and if we include them all there would be no time for actual learning. Religion should be left to family and church, and private religious schools, not public schools.
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Thomas P. Davis
I remember when this was an issue in the early nineties, they were asking the children what they thought. Their answer was if they want to pray, they will lay down their head and pray and could care less about what anybody says.
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Victor Wayne Sweatman
Religion should be a choice and not forced on anyone. There are children in our public schools that are not Christian, they're Hindu, Muslim and many other faiths, they should not be subjected to this indoctrination. Especially with trump Bibles.
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Daniel Gray
so? a moment of silence fits the bill for all of them.
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Geoffrey C. Olive
Church schools OK! Public schools must/should conform to the separation of church and state! That is fact and is not up to individual schools or teachers to ignore!
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Robin Anne Hannon
When I was young there was prayer in schools. I would just sit quietly and use it as a time to regroup, meditate, and take a breath. It is probably true that other religions will insist on equal time. Prayer is fine, but if you open it in a public venue like a school you will get different faiths, and different forms of prayer along with Christian prayer. This is not going to result in a completely Christian theocracy. IMHO leave the doors closed and it won't be an issue, or be prepared for an influx of many forms of prayers from different cultures and ideas.
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Mary
I went to a private Catholic school and we never prayed in class, ever.
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Lady Mutt Cat
I absolutely support prayer in schools. And this Witch will demand equal time for Wiccan prayers in those same schools.
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Daniel Gray
which is why I suggested a moment of silence so you could have your prayers if you wanted.
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Mrknowitall
Hmmmm, prayer of Drag Shows ??? I go with God all day !
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arawngraalrd
I support Prayer in Schools, as Montessori did, but I don't support Government Endorsement.
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James Bullard
The question here is whether there should be mandatory prayer in schools supported by tax dollars. How do you square having prayer in those schools but without "government endorsement"
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arawngraalrd
I have grave concerns, about a Department of Education contributing Congressional Money to Public Education. State Money might be subject to the 14th Amendment, and I'm not sure that should stand. If we're to have Public Funding for Parochial School, maybe in proportion to what is taught, are we going to dock such funding for teaching Misinformation? Should Parents receive their potion for Home Schooling? What if a school teaches that Adolph Hitler was an angel of the Lord?
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Mary
Years ago we did the homes chooling at K12 but I fear they could even add prayer and/or religion in there. We really need to fight this all the way. When you home school you have to follow the states curriculum.
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Michael Burton
The question is "mandatory". I don't care is schools want to allow time out of the cirruclum to let students go off to some corner of the school to practice their religious rites. But mandating "prayer" violates the First Amendment. Other comments cover the questions about which religion woud be mandated,etc.
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Lady Mutt Cat
As if the incoming crowd gives a hoot for the First Amendment if that speech doesn’t follow the party line.
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Wayne Edward Kilmer
I find myself disappointed in some members of the ULC. I do support the right of people to express their opinion and understand that there will always be trolls. I just don’t understand the motivation of some to be so obnoxious.
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Lawrence A. Benson
Wayne Edward Kilmer, just a thought. Maybe the "motivation" of some to be so "obnoxious" is because "some" of us are so sick and tired of the constant lies being told to the people of our great country and the world for that matter, by him (TRUMP) and his backers, that there is no longer any room for doubt. I know, everyone deserves a second chance and maybe even a third chance, but unfortunitly Donald J. Trump is nothing more than a hypocritical grifter. His track record of robbing from the poor and enhancing pocketbooks of not only himself, his wealthy family members and his wealthy friends is on the record. God knows I've tried to find some good in that man, but I have found that his MAGA followers aren't helping him, they are "enabling" him. Even Jesus had his limits with Satan. "Begone Satan" As Holy people we have to recognize evil when we see it.
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David Booth
You're right Lawrence,as Holy People of God and the Lord Jesus Christ we recognize evil call it and know that we have to resist the temptation his Idea of a better America, Mandatory school prayer will not stop the Devil's Evil plans to use weak minded people to fulfill his plots to take over this world Before God Our heavenly Father sends His Son Jesus back " Donald J Trump" Anti Christ... The Elects can not be Deceived because The Holy Sprit is with Us Always ....
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Nicholas J Page
Prayers are for the individual and not mandatory
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Merlin
2 Corinthians 11:13-15 ESV
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds
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John Ash McCormick
Lucifer did not disguise himself, he WAS, according to Christian theologians a thousand years ago, the angel of light who fought and fell from grace, such as it was.
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Theresa C. Marquess
It didn't 'hurt' any of us who started our school day with the Pledge of Allegiance and prayer. If anything, it reinforced our parents teaching us love and respect for God and country.
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Michael Howard Schrader
What about atheists? I guess they don't have any rights.
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Theresa C. Marquess
Yes, they do have rights that are covered when everyone can take a moment of silence to reflect on whatever it is they want to think about. Having religion or not is a personal choice, each and everyone of us has his or her own version of religion. I don't believe that any two are alike. Just take the time to think and reflect on your own day and how it is progressing. Isn't that what the ULC is all about?
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Amy Varela
Please tell that to IQ45 and his MAGAt minions. If a child really needs to take a moment of silence to reflect on whatever it is they want to think about, why does it have to be a mandated moment of silence in school? Until someone - anyone at all - can provide absolute evidence of their god, nobody should have to be subjected to anyone else's beliefs or faith. I respect the right of everyone to believe whatever they want to believe, no matter how ridiculous I may think their beliefs are. I do not have to respect what they believe, and neither I nor my children should have to be exposed to it. If parents are not teaching their children about a god, it is because they do not want their children to learn about that god. What about the whole "parents should have the right to participate in their child's education" nonsense from IQ45's people? Is that only for parents who believe the same as they do? They do not care about personal choice, as evidenced by their hypocritical "pro-life" nonsense. If parents want their children to pray, they can do it at home. If they want their children to have a religious education, they can send them to a religious school. In reality, they want to do away with education altogether, since they love the uneducated. Uneducated people are so much easier to manipulate.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
Aside from differences in biblical issues, I can agree again. I respect that others have the right to choose the path that speaks to them. I can respect their right to their beliefs whether I agree with them or not.
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Theresa C. Marquess
Amy, Your immature response to my comment does not warrant an answer from me, but since we are in a time of Thanksgiving, I wish you well and happiness.
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Daniel Gray
Supreme Court and lower US District Courts have already ruled that a moment of silence in schools in NOT unconstitutional. Have fun now trying to discredit their decisions
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Asa William Sprague, II
I question your qualifications to speak for those children who were being raised in a Jewish home, or an Atheist home, or a Catholic home, or a Buddhist home, or a Hinduism home, or a Presbyterian home, Methodist home, Lutheran home or Episcopalian home.
Historically, only Evangelical Christians support directed prayer in public schools.
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Theresa C. Marquess
Asa dear, I have to wonder whether you read my two posts on this subject. Though it is none of your business, I was born and raised a Roman Catholic, however, life directed me to be a participant/member of a number of faiths, including Jewish, Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, Berean Baptist, Southern Baptist, Christian Missionary Alliance, Lutheran, and probably several others that aren't coming to mind at the moment; and I have been a ULC minister since being ordained in 1977. No, I am not an expert in all faiths, however, I've learned enough in life to have made the prior two comments on this subject that I posted. I accept all people of all doctrines, as we all should.
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Asa William Sprague, II
Theresa honey, how could I possibly have read your two other posts when they were added after my comment was made? Check the date/time stamps on our respective comments. Your personal life experience is not at issue. At issue is your seeming confidence in claiming that people of faiths different than yours were not 'hurt' when forced to participate in Christian prayer and a recitation of the pledge of allegiance to the United States of America while attending public school.
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Theresa C. Marquess
Good morning Asa, Yes, please check the time and date stamps. Our classrooms were filled with people of all different faiths. I had friends of all different faiths, and still do. No one ever objected to the quiet time that the morning prayer afforded all of us. All participated with no qualms, their parents, and mine, did not object and act like a bunch of scaredy-cat pantywaists. You were looking for an answer to my qualifications? And yours are? It's okay, Asa, and by the way, I surely do enjoy bantering with you!
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Asa William Sprague, II
Good afternoon, Theresa.
"Yes, please check the time and date stamps."
Your first post is the one I responded to; and, at the time I responded to your first post, your second had not appeared in the thread yet because ULC has significant lag time between the time a person hits "post" and the time their comment actually appears in the thread.
As for my qualifications, my only relevant qualification for this back and forth between you and I is that I, also, have known many people of different faiths; and not all of them were comfortable with the pledge of allegiance and mandatory prayer time during school. One example: I had a peer in fourth grade who felt painfully excluded from the class over the fact that his parents forbade him from reciting the pledge and from being in the room during class prayer time. He had to go out in the hall with two or three other children whose parents forbade their children from participating in those activities due to religious reasons. This classmate was also forbidden by his parents to attend class room parties held in celebration of any holiday.
Your reference to people with religious concerns as "scaredy-cat pantywaists" seems unfortunate as it gives the impression that you don't really respect people of faiths that are different from yours.
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John Ash McCormick
I personally have an objection to the pledge. It was used off and on for many years but only became official during WWII. It is badly written and I substituted my own words when I gave my pledge during monthly emergency management training. I object to pledging any Allegiance to a piece of cloth. That leads to nonsense about not burning a flag in protest. The same people who demand punishment for burning, which isn't in the flag code, applaud violations of the flag code which includes not displaying it horizontally as many sporting events have done. "The flag should always be carried aloft and free, and never flat or horizontally"
I happily and willingly pledge Allegiance to the Constitution which is how you are sworn in as a government official. I don't know why your 4th grader was told not to make the pledge, perhaps they were Quakers? Quakers, to my knowledge are pacifists and have no fixed prayers. of course there are always outliers, for instance one of the worst war mongering presidents was a lapsed Quaker, R. Nixon. Should you really pledge to a piece of cloth instead of the Constitution which is what really matters. Any former military who object to my saying that should check what The Pentagon has to say. Although burning is designated desecration in 18 U.S. Code § 700 the Supreme Court said it violates the First Amendment to prohibit burning. I go into this in detail because it is less controversial than objecting to the many flaws in forced prayers.
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Theresa C. Marquess
How sad that your 4th-grade friend had such a bad experience because he was told by his parents that he could not participate in the pledge, prayer time, or classroom holiday gatherings. People need to think twice about the damage that it can cause their child when they stop the child's participation in school functions. I have never encountered a child being set aside when parties, celebrations, the pledge, or prayer occurred in the child's class. I am a great-grandmother and have seen quite a few generations in my own family go through the public and private school systems. None of which has ever come home with stories of a classmate who was not allowed to participate in normal school functions with the rest of his/her class. Your friend was most unfortunate to have missed out on fun, laughter, and the brotherhood that forms when children can relax and be themselves in a classroom setting. There are times when participation is much better than restriction because it aids the child in the development of their own opinions, rather than the restrictive opinion that is displayed in his/her home. I reiterate, Asa, I find our banter delightful! Looking forward to hearing from you again!
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Lady Mutt Cat
I refused to stand for the pledge when I was 9 or 10. The only country I have any love or respect for is the Kingdom of Hawai’i, and that country was stolen by the USA. Settler colonialism at its finest.
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Mary
Yes it does hurt us not only am I not going to make a pledge to the christian god but it's also a form of brainwashing. My pledge is to my country not someone elses god.
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Theresa C. Marquess
Hi Mary, I agree with you that you Do Not have to pray to a Christian God, instead, you can take a moment of silence to think of whatever or whomever you choose. And yes, the Pledge of Allegiance is to the United States and is something that I take very seriously.
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Rev. BH
The Pledge of Allegiance "to the flag..." no longer means what it once did to me. I've seen more flags in front of Trump supporters homes and gone to tatters on the front of pick up trucks with gun racks, which heralds a new divisive meaning to the flag. I used to fly it in front of my home, but it's jingoist use by Trump (hugging it!) belittles it into MAGA propaganda symbol. It no longer represents decent Americans.
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Theresa C. Marquess
I'm sorry for you, Rev BH for politics does not enter into the Pledge. I respect the flag and all that it stands for. My father was in the Navy during WWII, my cousins fought in Korea, my friends fought in Vietnam, and my son is a disabled Army Vet. Maybe that is the difference between you and me. I feel very strongly about my allegiance to my country and the flag as its symbol. Think long and hard about the men and women who fought for that flag so that you have the freedom to make your comment before you say anything about politics which you may not know enough about.
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Rev. BH
A thoughtful reply, Theresa. And I have nothing but respect for our veterans. I said nothing belittling about them nor the decent Americans our flag was created to represent.
I am seeing upside down flags, black and white flags, flags with gold fringe, thin blue line flags, Sovereign citizen flags, the U.S. Civil flags (on and on) - all representing something concerning. I'm sure the vets you refer to did not fight and die to ensure the continuous creation of new "American" flags.
And I do know a great deal about politics, which I have followed for years, and which is why I fear the current direction of an America we both grew up loving.
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Theresa C. Marquess
Rev BH Yes, our veterans did fight and die for the rights and freedom of those of us who proudly fly our American flag. But also of those citizens who choose to fly the flags that you and I object to. I pray for our Country, that it can be turned around and restored to the values and self-worth that existed when I was a young adult.
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Clay Serenbetz
Prayer in school pales in comparison to the Donald's other drawbacks. The Donald is a felon (over 30 counts), a man who has bankrupted 6x, a man who is a serial liar and philanderer, a man who a judge said raped one woman, a man who was held liable for lying about it twice to the tune of tens of millions of dollars, a man who admitted to serially assaulting women, a man who was impeached twice in his previous Presidency, a man who is under indictment in several jurisdictions, both state and Federal, a man who has promised 20% ruinous tariffs on imported goods, a man who will damage our nation's standing in the post-WWII world order with potentially horrific results, a man who will deport illegal aliens despite its certainty to cause a huge recession and crippling inflation due to the inability to replace the workers in necessary jobs such as meat packing, for example, a man who has picked for AG someone who is credibly accused of sexual assault of underage age girls, a man who has no science background for the top medical job, a man who seeks to use yhe military to seek revenge on his political opponents.
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Daniel Gray
poor child, you really should stop listening to the left. Smiths case in DC has been stipped, the case in NY has two options, one they have to sentence him before you can say he is a felon and they cant do that under the recent SCOTUS decision as they would have to go through each case to see if it violates the SCOTUS ruling and they dont have the time as NY law clearly states that you cannot just hold a sentencing over someones head for 4 years https://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article70.php#p70.00 Or they need to throw all of them out.
And no he didnt rape anyone. Seems there are no police reports nor hospital reports nor any video of Him even being in the same store. Then you have the fine that violated the 8th Amendment of the US Constitution for excessive bail, and it wasnt the Judge, it was an all Democrat Jury.
The Impeachments are in the process of being overturned as in the investigation it clearly showed that Pelosi used a discredited and clearly fake file
And no again the cases you are talking about are the ones that they tried to kick him off the ballot and were ALL overturned by federal courts.
And if they are illegals, then they have no legal or constitutional right to be here to start with
And again Gantz had all these cases and claims DISMISSED by the DOJ because they found no credible evidence they ever happened. Heck even The View (ABC's harpy show) Sunny Hosted had to deliver a legal apology when she made this statement right in the middle of the show or she would have been fired on the spot as ABC cannot allow their own people to make a slanderous statement on a show without facts and she had none.
And I guess then you would say the same about the Sec of Health who before they were appointed had no medical background? Dont believe me then go to the Senate archives and watch their hearing where they ADMITTED it in front of cameras. Or maybe we can consider the guy who was put in charge of nuclear material only to find out he had no experience and had to resign after he was caught stealing suitcases from airports?
And finally I guess you are ok with Biden trying to make a department of Truth so they could remove items from the internet that they didnt like or using the US DOJ as a form of enforcement against Trump? Or maybe thats why Alejandro Mayorkas has or is being impeached or our present USAG Merrick B. Garland has had impeachment papers filed against him as well?
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Robert Gagnon
Nothing wrong with a few moments of silence to stop and contemplate your place in the world, meditate or say a prayer if it makes you feel better. I would rather see the pledge of allegiance and star spangled banner verbalized in the classroom.
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Amy Varela
I would rather children spend their time in school focused on learning facts about science and math, learning to read and appreciate literature, learning about actual US history and civics, and spending time outdoors getting exercise.
I have no problem with the original pledge, other than we do not have "liberty and justice for all" right now. And let them learn about all 5 verses of the Star Spangled Banner, especially the verse that talks about how the "hirelings and slaves" died while they were forced to save the flag.
America will never be great until we teach real history, allow people to feel badly about how others were treated, and promise to be better humans. It's not going to happen with mandated prayer in schools.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
This I can agree with. This world does need to move forward in all the sciences and humanities studies.
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John Ash McCormick
nothing wrong perhaps, but certainly nothing right about it either.
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John Ash McCormick
Seeing it endorsed by teachers even by suggestion should turn most of the kids against Christianity who aren't already nauseated by the thought of a state endorsed religion.
To see how well that works just vacation in Israel, Iraq, S.A. or Afghanistan.
But, just a suggestion, don't take a Trump bible with you to Iraq or Afghanistan and don't take any female to either one.
Have any of the pro school prayer group ever notices that despite God being for all humans, they all seem to follow the same religion as their parents, at least those who were tamed early and long enough?
If they have, do they have any explanation, any at all? Note I didn't even ask that it be a rational explanation.
Does your particular jealous god not care about the billions who believe otherwise?
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Amber Fry
Depends on the age group. Younger children are often more likely to want to please the teacher whereas older kids tend to think it's ridiculous. They know this. Why do you think they want it in the lower grades in particular?
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William E Muldrew
Praying is personal and should not be forced on any one by no means. I do agree there should be a time for silence to reflect, but not a forced group participation act.
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Rev. BH
Silence and reflection at home.
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Daniel Gray
Supreme Court said this can be done in school, sorry BH
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Rev. BH
They did say it canbe, not it must be. Isn't prayer between you and your god? Why make it a social function? Dan, do you need to be seen praying to legitimize it?
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Daniel Gray
So since you admitted that SCOTUS said they can do this, whats your major malfunction when a states does what the SCOTUS said they could do?
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Michael Hunt
There's a difference between SCOTUS saying it's okay to pray in public schools and having mandated prayer time during the school day.
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Daniel Gray
Not really. If the SCOTUS says it ok then the State has the right to do it no matter what you think
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Michael Hunt
Please show the class the SCOTUS ruling stating that it's okay for a state to mandate prayer in public school.
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Daniel Gray
Engel v. Vitale, 370 U.S. 421 (1962). It said that Teachers and School officials cannoit make a moment of silence, BUT it also says that if the Children want to do it unsupervised by School officials, they CAN do it.
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Michael Hunt
Correct, the state cannot mandate prayer in school. Students have the right to pray personally but the state cannot mandate it.
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Daniel Gray
So you are admitting I am correct, oh be still my heart...will wonders never cease.
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Rev. BH
Comment has been removed.
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Ipsissima: Leonora
IMO, if Christian prayer is allowed, then all other forms of prayer and supplication - including the Credo Novalis - should be allowed, too.
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Dr. Melly M.
Absolutely in agreement with you. 👌🏽😎
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Alexander Clarke
All or nothing! I vote for nothing.
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Daniel Gray
So just have a moment of silence, that should solve your unfounded worries.
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Reverend Paula Copp
You know what, gray? I have yet to see you say anything pleasant to anyone. Please shock everyone by being nice on occasion.
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Daniel Gray
why? I state fact and its people like you that get all in a tizzy
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Michael Hunt
Except when you don't state facts but easily disproven falsehoods.
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Daniel Gray
and when I post something Hunt I back it up, unlike you. So whats your worries?
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Michael Hunt
I'm pretty sure you know that I have backed up the majority of my claims with credible sources while you rarely provide any sources at all and often provide sources that discredit your stance.
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Daniel Gray
Really, I guess you are just upset when your left wing sources are proved wrong....
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Matthew W Meister
Danny Boy, I think that would be the very definition of the word troll. Especially when the "facts" you state are not factual.
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Daniel Gray
No that would be you and Paula. And I would not be surprised if they didnt show pictures
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arawngraalrd
I think a "Moment of Silence," is the perfect illustration of what's wrong with having a public policy, on School Prayer. Quakers would appreciate a moment of silence, while Black Churches traditionally make a joyful noise unto The Lord, so what looks like a universal solution to you, won't look the same to me, and you're trying to be objective. I favor School Choice, but that will have its own complexities. School Prayer is too important, for any public decision. Get the Public out of School.
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Rev. BH
"Get the Public out of the Schools"? Well, there goes the PTA. And aren't the kids themselves part of the public? No Parents, no Teachers, no kids? Empty schools with AI prayers coming over the Public Address system? Wait a minute - no public to operate the Public Address system, either! Talk about complexities.
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Mary
And paganism but we would have to try forcing this as christians do. These poor kids will have no time to learn actual studies if this continues.
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arawngraalrd
Has The Bible ever raised objection to Paganism? The Worship of Jesus is just as pagan as anything older. We should respect and remember our Pagan Gods, but it would be religious to remember the Divinity of our Neighbors.
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John P Maher
ITs ALL B S !
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Rev. BH
JPM, what is all BS?
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Geoffrey C. Olive
Religion!
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Wilberta M. Berry
This is so fake. A convicted felon and an adjudicated s3xaul abuser is talking about bringing school prayers back. The person who did a photo op holding the Bible upside down and backwards? Is continuing in his con artist ways. As Jesus said " it is easier for a Camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven". I think the felon should concentrate on building his own relationship to God and leave everyone else's alone.
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Ellen B. Wentzel
Right on!
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Rev. BH
Wilberta, well said.
Trump promoting prayer is hypocritical from a man who separated helpless children from their parents. Or RFK Jr. as head of Department of Health and Human Services.
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Daniel Gray
Um correct your post there BH, it was OBAMA that did the separating. And there are even pictures of him standing and looking at the kids.
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Rev. BH
"U.S. Customs and Border Protection explains on its site and in a flyer that border-crossing families will be separated.
The policy was unique to the Trump administration. Previous administrations did not, as a general principle, separate all families crossing the U.S. border illegally."
Nice try, but wrong as usual Dan.
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Daniel Gray
Nice try BH but wrong as usual, all you had to do was something foreign to you and look, but since you dont want to here ya go https://www.businessinsider.com/migrant-children-in-cages-2014-photos-explained-2018-5 or here https://www.npr.org/2014/06/23/324857970/child-detention-centers-a-headache-for-the-obama-administration
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Matthew W Meister
Daniel Gray, you are a one of a kind troll. Brilliant to add links to your B.S. comment, knowing that almost all who see them will never take the time to read them. Apparently, you haven't read them yourself, or just assumed I wouldn't. I would ask you to go back and read the links, but I have seen enough of your posts to know that reading the facts will not convince you that you are incorrect. The pictures from 2014 were of unaccompanied minors that came across with no place to go. The policy of separating parents and children was a policy of the Trump administration. Your own links say so. How about finding a political site to troll people on with your political comments and keep your comments on this site limited to more spiritual pursuits?
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Daniel Gray
dont like it when your beliefs are proved false do you?
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Rev. BH
Dan, I looked and the first sentence in one of your articles is this "U.S. officials are detaining thousands of immigrant children who tried to cross the U.S.-Mexico border alone (not separated from parents) Nice try, and wrong as usual you like to say.
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Daniel Gray
Nice 5try, but I guess you missed the dates they placed in the story that were well before 2016
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James Bullard
A quote from BH's link, "There, thousands of undocumented and unaccompanied children are being held in detention centers." Note that it is talking about 'unaccompanied children'. IOW children who came across the border alone. The Obama administration did not separate them from their parents but took responsibility for their welfare. That is very different from Trump's deliberately separating families as amethod of discouraging migrants. "If you come here we will take your children away from you."
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Daniel Gray
So accvording to BH, then we should put teens and children in prison along with adults where they could be harmed or worse? I mean there are hundreds if not thousands of reports where women and girls are raped...is that what you are wanting?
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Rev. BH
Did I say that, Dan? Let me check -- nope.
Please keep my initials out of your lies.
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Daniel Gray
You didnt need to say it, all one has to do is read your posts where the children are removed from the adults to make sure this does not happen and yet here you are throwing a fit that it happens
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Rev. BH
A fit? Where's that?
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Reverend Paula Copp
The orange menace believes he is god. This is how America dies…
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Lori-Ann Neeb
Ms. Copp, is it amazing how ok he is with the counts when they say he won. He isn't crying vote fraud now
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Daniel Gray
and you are just mad because he won. Sorry about your luck
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Rev. BH
Comment removed by user.
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Daniel Gray
And you do know Wilberta, that the charges in NY have been set aside to see if they are in conflict with the SCOTUS decision so he legally has not been convicted of anything. The DC cases have been Stopped completely and the charges in Georgia are legally tainted under the law and have been instructed that they cant be used wither.
Dont pay much attention to the news do you?
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Joseph Grieco
Uh, no they haven't. All that happened in NY is the Judge has postponed sentencing pending the outcome of the election. As Trump has been elected, jail time is likely off the table, but he is likely to still face millions of dollars in fines. The Supreme Court cannot touch this until it makes its way through the NY Court system and then the Federal appeals process. I expect charges to be dismissed in DC by the pedophile he is appointing to Attorney General. Georgia is a State case, not a federal case, and it could easily occur again. So, thank you for supporting someone for President who brags about violating at least 9 of the 10 commandments on almost a daily basis.
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Daniel Gray
Um yes they have, just like the ones in DC and just like the ones soon to be shut down in Georgia. Bragg and James are on their last legs and they know it.
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Amy Varela
He has been convicted in NY. His sentencing was put on hold, not his conviction. Sentencing is now tentatively scheduled for January, 2029... if he's still alive. I'm sure they'll move that date up if Vance implements the 25th Amendment.
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Daniel Gray
And according to NY State Law, you CANNOT put any form of sentencing off for 4 years as the legal stated amount is 45 days. Now tell me how they can hold off for 4 years? They cant. So their only other option is to just stop it all together.
And Even if they dont want to, the Appeals court has already signified that they are heading tword overturning all of these fake convictions. Smith in DC has quit and shut his fake investigation down and now the poor sap and Garland are both facing a 1 Billion dollar lawsuit from Trump, one they cant win.
And in Georgia, James is ORDERED to appear before Congress and explain herself for her actions.
So yea its pretty much over for all of them
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Amber Fry
Not fox news, no. If you actually listen to reports from the courts, the lawyers and the judges involved you would know better.
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Daniel Gray
first to be convicted you have to be sentenced, and Trump has not been. The charges in NY HAVE been set aside as you cant sentence a sitting President. And under NY State law you cant wait 4 years to sentence anyone so the only thing is to just close them out completely, thats the ONLY thing they have.
And as for the Georgia charges, sad for you it seems that nothing they have can be used as its legally tainted since she got the info from her boyfriend. So much so she is facing disciplinary hearings at the State ethics board which could very well cost her her legal license, not to mention that she would also have to go after Biden as there are pictures of Biden driving his car out of his garage and right in the upper left corner is a bunch of boxes that are clearly marked as Top Secret. And by his own admission he read some of them over the phone to his ghost writer. All of this is and has been documented and validated by the DOJ. So you might want to be careful about throwing around fake claims.
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Udo Hoffmann
Learn the law... sentencing is NOT a requirement of being convicted it is the addendum to it.
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Daniel Gray
How about you learn the law especially since what I said was taken directly from the NY State Code.
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Mary
This is how some of them hide!!
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Johnny Mac
Hallelujah!! Amen. The 10 Commandments should also be displayed in School Rooms and on Buses! And the Christian flag should be flown with the American Flag! Anyone caught destroying any Christian or American flag should be treated to the same thing! Amen
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
Matthew 6:6 - "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen; then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."
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Reverend Paula Copp
Thank god you’re not in government, Johnny! The America I grew up in was not embroiled in some sort of religious movement like the conservative christians now want. This was meant to be a COUNTRY OF LAWS, not some dictatorial theocracy! The Constitution is the highest law of the land, not the bible! It’s amazing how much you resemble a Pharisee…
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Daniel Gray
No that is what you are doing paula and doing a damn good job of it.
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Reverend Paula Copp
Do you have anything edifying to say, gray? Oh, I forgot. You’re the resident bully. I don’t do well with obnoxious people, gray, and you are one of the most obnoxious people I’ve ever dealt with. Please address to blustery comments to someone who cares.
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Anisahoni
He has beem here with the same nasty trolling attitude and behavior for a long time. It's sad and pathetic. Such an unhappy person. Guess no one loves him. Have a lovely day. No mandatory christrian prayers in schools.Period.
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Daniel Gray
No I state fact, which always has you seemingly in a tizzy, and if you didnt care then why are you replying?
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Keith Ramsey
There were no facts in your posts. Just allegation.
Your posts make you seem like you are trying to come across as a bully.
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Matthew W Meister
Keith and Paula, I know you are trying to be polite, but the word bully is probably not the appropriate term here. I believe the contemporary term I believe you are looking for is "troll".
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Daniel Gray
far more facts in my posts then the fantasy they are trying to claim
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Daniel Gray
So I see that you are refusing to listen to SCOTUS decisions. Good, now we know how to respond to your myths
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Wilberta M. Berry
Daniel the Supreme Court rule government sanctioned school prayers unconditional in 1962. Engle vs Vitale. These are the facts that you are obviously unaware of. Learn more talk less.
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Daniel Gray
no its clearly you who are unaware. They said in the decision that schools CANNOT SPONSOR the prayer, they never said that students couldnt pray. Nice attempt at smoke and mirrors.
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Daniel Gray
sorry but fact is fact even if you dont like it
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Anisahoni
Misogynists and trolls are weak little man/boys who always seem to magnify their misogyny on this site. You are not appreciated here and would do well to learn how to be respectful. Women and enlightened men will always stand up against bullying and un christian like behavior.
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Udo Hoffmann
Wait a minute... "unChristian like behaviour"? If I recall the inquisition, the crusades, the burning times and the finding and conquest of this continent correctly... that was ALL christian behaviour. :(
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Anisahoni
I agree with you Udo. You missed my tongue on cheek approach to christianity and the hypocrisy of their behavior. I know all about their dasterdly actions. Am a recovered Roman Catholic and survived..
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Lori-Ann Neeb
I can't speak for ms. COPP SINCE I DO NOT KNOW HER Personally, but maybe for the same reason other people do. You are an irritant that j st ha that be scratch is me times.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Daniel, Paula, please stop and read the instructions for leaving posts. They appear after the box you type in and before the "Post Comment" button.
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Deborah Jane Vogel
(Thank you, Patricia, for your effort to return these exchanges back into the discussions they are meant to be.) Wow! Let’s all take a deep breath. This country and the world need all of us to practice and cultivate the skills of listening, discussing, patience, and compassion, not rage and denigration. I was raised in the Christian faith, remember well the legal battle lead by Madeline Murray O’Hare (an avowed atheist, although, I suspect, an unhappy person) to outlaw mandatory school prayer, and (in my view) the correct court decision to ban mandated school prayer. I try to live my life following A) #’s 5 thru 10 of the 10 commandments, B) the Buddhist's Noble Eightfold Path, C) state & federal laws that recognize the value of each person & our responsibility to treat them with civility and respect, and D) when I have the opportunity and the means, trying to live up to my responsibility to spiritually or economically lift up someone in need. In my view, legislating mandatory school prayer does none of these. It does reflect its proponents’ fear of “the others” and a failure to acknowledge the many different paths our fellow humans may follow to become good citizens and good people.
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Daniel Gray
I respond exactly how I am responded to. Maybe they should take a look at what they are posting first?
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Victor Wayne Sweatman
No sir, you do not state facts, you state opinions just for the sake of bullying others who you know will disagree. Makes it easy to understand your agenda. It's not to discuss as much as it is to disrupt.
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Daniel Gray
No sorry, I post facts and give links where I found them, If you cant see that then no skin off my nose
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Mark Stephen Edwards
Whew, after reading and scanning the last mess of comments, WHO LET THE DOGS OUT?
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Rev. Rory
The Bible never actually tells us how to divide up the list to get ten distinct commandments. Catholics combine the Protestant First and Second Commandments into the First, and split the Tenth into the Ninth and Tenth, distinguishing coveting of people (wives) from coveting of property. And many Christian churches use a flag, but not all.
So my question is what version of the 10 Commandments do you propose, and what flag do you propose that represents only certain denominations AND why should any of that be in a public school? We now live in a country with a leader that broke all 10 of the Commandments. I can provide examples, but I think we all know about it. So, should the new leader be used as an example of HOW to break the commandments? In schools, of course not. Do you propose forcing children raised in other religions be forced to say prayers daily from a Christian religion that is not their own?
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Lawrence A. Benson
Excellent reply Rev. Rory, I couldn't have said it better. Perhaps they could incorporate "post and pray" into the U.S. History curricullium to teach our children the new criteria to becomming a U.S. President. I like to believe that in most religions teaching "tolerance" to their followers is what any "God" would want us to do. But I can see from the results of this last election, I was mistaken.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
Mr.Mac, the issue was never prayer in school. It has always been and issue of one faith trying to force its prayers down everybody's throats. Any student can send out a silent prayer to whatever they refer to as their faith diety anytime.. The Christian prayer can be a child's choice but the religion has no right forcing everyone to say them. What is the issue Christians have anyway.? There has always been one diety and He has answered to many names to different groups. But the fact remains it is still the same diety no matter what a person calls him. The fixation on names is a human hang up not God's.
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Amy Varela
Sorry, there are hundreds of deities. Even the god of the bible knows it. Evidence: the first of the 10 commandments: "I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt have no other gods before me." That was Yahweh telling the Jewish people not to worship the Egyptian, Celtic, Norse and other deities.
The fun thing is, all of them are characters in stories. There might be a few real people in the stories, but there's no evidence that any of the deities ever actually existed.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
Amy Varela, why do people continue to spew Bible versus when they are informed from the get go that the person they reply to considers that book to be a man made publication published by a corrupt church at the time with its own agenda. They picked and chose what to include or not then edited that over and over until a Pope at some point declared no more changes ever be made. And if you want to reference a version, why is it always a single most misused and misinterpreted version over the many other versions that exist? That is why I disregard any reply that relies on spewed verses, just because the Bible says, etc. so if you have anything useful that is not from your Bible please say so or admit that you have nothing to say. Also, scholars have questioned the truth of your ten commandments. Moses was raised Egyptian and the list of commandments is very close to an Egyptian rules list which Moses would have known very well. God would never say he wanted His children to fear him. He is all love and forgiveness. The fact that that is listed proves the list was human created. Most likely Moses saw the people misbehaving in his absence and wrote them himself to try to scare the people back in line. So he most likely borrowed 10 of the commandments from the Egyptian Book of the Dead to suit his purpose.
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Daniel Gray
So just have a moment of silence, I am sure you cant find fault with that
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Rev. Rory
"Anyone caught destroying any Christian or American flag should be treated to the same thing!"
And what would that be?
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Joseph Grieco
So, you want to force Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Sikhs, Hindus, Ba'hai, Jain, Shinto, Taoists, 7th Day Adventists, Christian Scientists, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. to comply with your version of prayer, even thought the First Amendment commands the Government to not establish a religion. If you want someone's children to have to pray as part of their school day, send them to a school run by a religious organization. Don't demand children attending Public School to comply with your view of worship. I don't know when the last time was you actually walked into an Elementary Public School, but the entire religious spectrum can usually be found in one. How about you try this - go on to a Native American Reservation, like the Navajo Nation in Arizona/New Mexico or Cherokee lands in Oklahoma, go into one of the schools there and make the same demand. You will be laughed off the Res. For over 100 years the Federal Government allowed Evangelical Christianity to be shoved down their throats. It was the greatest failure possible.
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Bond Wright
Mr. Greico: with all due respect--also include Pagans. Thank you.
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Joseph Grieco
My apologies. I did not mean to exclude Pagans or Wicca - I do consider them separate groups.
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Daniel Gray
and who says its against their religions for a moment of silence? And who said that this isnt legal federal courts have ruled that it is.
U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit (2009) Upheld a Texas law that allowed students to take a moment of silence at the beginning of the day.
4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals (2001) Upheld Virginia's law that required children to begin the school day with a minute of silence for "meditation, prayer, or engage in silent activity"
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Mary
Pagans
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Rev Ned
Let’s all sing the hymn, 🎼 Jesus loves me, but, He can’t stand you.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
Just picture one of the old testament stories of "God's people" being told to go out and kill everyone from another group. First of all , God loves all his children and would never send one group of his children out to kill another group. Those were acts committed by men later trying to justify them by saying God ordered it. God would never call one person aside with something like "you guys are ok but those people over there are getting on my last nerve. Get 'em!"
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Amy Varela
So, you worship a piece of cloth? Good to know.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
And you spew memorized verses from a known inaccurate publication with absolutely nothing else to back anything up.
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Daniel Gray
And you can prove that or is it just your opinion?
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Michael Fredrick Jubinsky
No, no, no! JFK wrote quite clearly on this when the country had a panic attack about the papists taking over the country. The separation between church and state should be absolute! The 1st Amendment to the Constitution (surprise, there are other parts of the Constitution than just the 2nd Amendment) clearly states: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;”. The Constitution does not make mention of God as a part of the governing of the country. That was by design. A number of the “Founding Fathers” were deists and saw how the merger of organized religion into the governing political entities in Europe led to flagrant abuses of power and erosion of personal freedoms. The 1797 Treaty of Tripoli clearly and succinctly states that “the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” The treaty was initiated by George Washington, signed by John Adams and ratified unanimously by the Senate, which included a majority of signers of the Constitution.
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Mary
"Our Dark Lord, Who art in Hell Unholy be thy name, Thy Empire come, Thine own will be done, On Earth as it is in The Inferno."
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Joseph Grieco
I can literally hear the pearl clutching at that one!
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Mary
"Our Dark Lord, Who art in Hell Unholy be thy name, Thy Empire come, Thine own will be done, On Earth as it is in The Inferno."
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Johnny Mac
Hallelujah!! Amen. The 10 Commandments should also be displayed in School Rooms and on Buses! And the Christian flag should be flown with the American Flag! Anyone caught destroying any Christian or American flag should be treated to the same thing! Amen
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Danielle Elizabeth Ostach
The incredible power and meaning of the American flag is the freedoms it represents, the strong nation that respects free speech and freedom of religion. The flag stands for the right to burn it and the fact that it doesn't strengthens its meaning.
Every time some idiot tried to burn a flag as a message they are showing the strength of our political system and our freedoms and undermining their own message. Go ahead and burn the flag, we can make more and will be stronger.
As for christianity, This nation has citizens of many religions: Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, Jewish, Islamic, Wiccan, dozens of factions and demonination of Christianity, quakers, and more. No religion is allowed to be established by the government and forced on others in public schools or government centers. I do not want persecution or proslytizing by any religion in our schools and it is all or nothing. PRayer belongs in church, it belongs in the home with parents. It belongs in your behavior every day but does not belong being forced into schools. Please note, there is no rules that prevent a student from praying in school. They can do so freely. The school just can't post the icons of religion as a requirement.
Silent prayer is something of christian/jewish tradition. so few minutes of silent contemplation is trying to force prayer which does not belong.
That said, I can see putting 10 commandments on wall next to picture of koran, bible, torah, Buddha and other religious icons in a classrooom dedicated to teaching comparative religions and history. This is not teaching faith but teaching about the diversity of our country. The strength of our country comes from our diversity all adding to whole weave that makes up our culture. The sharing of ideas to make things stronger.
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Mark A. Fear
Just before I can out of High school , in 1990. Our school proclaimed a person was not allowed to carry a Bible and a student prayer group was improper. My sister lead a prayer vigilant around the American flag out front, the following Friday. I was never more proud of her . Took me years to tell her. Now a minister myself, I understand it was even more important than I knew at the time.
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Danielle Elizabeth Ostach
Comment removed by user.
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Bond Wright
Johnny: "Treated to the same thing"--what would that be?
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Mary
I think someone needs to report your comment to the local authorities as that sounds very much like a threat of violence maybe even terrorism.
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Mark Stephen Edwards
Dear Mary,
Could you let me know if you are being contrary?
Mark
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Mary
“Let us stand now, unbowed and unfettered by arcane doctrines born of fearful minds in darkened times. Let us embrace the Luciferian impulse to eat of the Tree of Knowledge and dissipate our blissful and comforting delusions of old. Let us demand that individuals be judged for their concrete actions, not their fealty to arbitrary social norms and illusory categorizations. Let us reason our solutions with agnosticism in all things, holding fast only to that which is demonstrably true. Let us stand firm against any and all arbitrary authority that threatens the personal sovereignty of One or All. That which will not bend must break, and that which can be destroyed by truth should never be spared its demise. It is Done." Hail Satan
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Daniel Gray
Wow, so you are posting from a book that has nothing to back it up with and yet you are complaining about Christians doing the same thing? Hypocritical much?
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Oh god not again. We will need to have Buddist Baio ceremonies, Hindu Puja locations, Jewish mitzbas, Muslim prayer sessions three times a day..all of this leaving no time for teaching ABCs and all that basic stuff...