A war is brewing in Oklahoma between the state’s education superintendent and local school districts over whether or not the Bible will be taught in lesson plans this fall.
Earlier this year, Oklahoma State Superintendent of Public Instruction Ryan Walters issued a mandate demanding that all Oklahoma public schools teach the Bible in American history classes. Walters argued that the Bible is a crucial foundation for understanding the nation’s founding, legal system, and ethics, on par with the Constitution and Declaration of Independence in its importance and contribution to American society - and that it needs to be taught to Oklahoma's public school students.
But some of the state’s largest school districts disagree, and are now pushing back against the mandate, stating that they have no intention of forcing teachers to incorporate the Bible into their lesson plans.
With less than a month left until the start of the 2024-2025 school year, which side will win out?
Oklahoma’s Bible Mandate
In June, Oklahoma’s Superintendent of Public Instruction, Ryan Walters, ordered all public schools to incorporate the Bible into history lessons for grades 5-12 starting in the next school year.
Oklahoma’s highest education official first unveiled his mandatory Bible plan in June. “The Bible is an indispensable historical and cultural touchstone,” Walters stated at the time. “Without basic knowledge of it, Oklahoma students are unable to properly contextualize the foundation of our nation which is why Oklahoma educational standards provide for its instruction.”
He told schools across the state they’d have until the next school year’s start in September to incorporate the Bible in relevant lesson plans, including subjects as wide-ranging as history, English, music, philosophy and art.
In recent weeks, Walters’ office has released additional guidelines on what, exactly, that will look like. Notably, the state will require every classroom in Oklahoma to have a Bible on-hand, and for instructors to examine the Bible's "historical, literary and secular benefits" when relevant.
Schools Push Back
That all isn’t sitting well with officials from some of Oklahoma’s largest school districts, who plainly stated they have no intention of teaching the Bible in class. Many of the state’s largest school districts have so far refused Walters’ orders, including ten of the school’s twenty largest districts.
“I’m just going to cut to the chase on that. Norman Public Schools is not going to have Bibles in our classrooms, and we are not going to require our teachers to teach from the Bible. The standards are clear and our curriculum is very clear. And we’re not going to deviate from that,” said Norman Public Schools Superintendent Nick Migliorino.
And Bixby Public Schools Superintendent Rob Miller issued a similar statement. “I would tell my teachers to just keep doing what they’re doing, teach the Oklahoma academic standards,” he said. “Don’t worry about some of the things that are being said at the state department in terms of repercussions or discipline or anything else.”
“Go to California”
In the wake of criticism from district heads, Walters is doubling down on his messaging. He says that “rogue” school districts “will comply, and I will use every means to make sure of it.”
“Adherence to this mandate is compulsory,” he said.
Walters also accused his critics of going woke. "I'm going to tell these woke administrators, if they're going to break the law and not teach it, they can go to California," he said. "Here in Oklahoma schools, we're going to make sure that history is taught."
What’s unclear is if Walters actually has a way to legally compel schools to follow his mandate. Many school administrators in objecting districts say that despite Walters’ directive, state law on the Bible in classrooms is very clear. Per Oklahoma law, individual districts have full discretion over curriculum, and Oklahoma's current education standards already allow for instructors to teach the historic origins and cultural impacts of a wide array of faiths and philosophies, including Christianity.
What does seem clear is that both sides think they are right, and with neither side backing down and the next school year only a month away, it seems this issue is only going to heat up in the coming weeks.
What do you make of Oklahoma’s Bible mandate? Do Oklahoma teachers need to incorporate the Bible into their lesson plans to accurately teach history and the humanities? Or is it Christian nationalism, as critics say?
Does the Bible belong in the classroom?
193 comments
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Pastor George Day
I applaud you, Nick Migliorino! BINGO!!
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Jannetje Eleanore Van Went
Education is about learning new things, its about progressive thought and innovation, history teaches religion.
Evolution only happened because times like 500 BC came, the people learned and it ended, so we can move forward, not because it was held in a gridlock.
No I disagree, children can learn about religion on their own after they are taught it in history, spirituality is such a personal experience, your mass force of it has dragged it into places that hurt it or the people that believe it.
Spirituality is a personal choice not a mass group focus. children need to learn to prepare for a future not a past!
Why have people like this never challenged the information from the bible to be updated to something that relates to the stories and struggles of spirituality today, instead of something that reminds us of a past we are ashamed of that we did not have control over. RE-Boot!
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Pastor George Day
Jannetje Eleanore Van Went,
Evolution should be taught in school as scientific speculation - since that's factually what it is - whereas the Bible should be taught as a fact!
A historic record is the key here!
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Brien
This argument is ridiculous. It is like a bunch of children fighting over who the best super hero is. Religious beliefs, all of them, are many made constructs that were created to instill fear and to get people to blindly obey. Admittedly during those ancient times there was a need to create common thought amongst a somewhat out of control population. Then these constructs turned into a means of power enslaving, punishing, and killing all in the name of a fictional deity. Man has advanced alot since then, and no longer lives in superstitious fear of fictional beings. We also believe differently than one another. The zealots complain about things being taught in school, (no proof of any mandated beliefs being taught), and yet they wish to teach their own personal beliefs and bigotry. The trouble with that is if you agree to teach bigotry, then you will have to teach, what do you call it.. oh yeah wokeness and acceptance. This country is a fine balance of fairness that must be kept. Or, you could just stop trying to indoctrinate children in the classroom. There is NO version of this that ends with zealots winning this battle. Make no mistake, it is a battle. I always hope for common ground, yet I never see it. That's what happens when you argue fiction. It is always up to interpretation.
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David Buck
I cannot help but wonder in the current climate if somebody mandated that they teach Islam, whether there would be the same push-back? There seem to be a lot of double-standards at work these days. It's OK to lambaste Christianity, but say one even remotely critical thing about Islam and suddenly you are branded a racist (funny how the political left seems to see Islam as a race).
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Melaine Rae Thompson
Actually, since Jesus was Jewish, Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism, the same way the Lutheran church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. If they want to really teach what Jesus taught, then they would need to use the Torah. That being said, I don’t think any religion should be taught in school unless it to clarify something in history class.
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Danielle Elizabeth Ostach
I agree the bible needs to part of the history but reading the bible and its verses but rather pointing out how the bible and religion were important parts of the founding of this country. The pilgrims and puritans came to this country to escape persecution because of their reading of the bible, the quakers too. The Mormans and their text played a role (don't need contents of the book but how it inspired movement).
Some passages might be important as I think they were quoted as part of constitutional and declaration of independence debate and speaking how those specific instances swayed formation.
Then again, Koran is important to history to talk about some of the african american movements and organizations and their impact on civil rights movement as much as the baptists churches,
The jewish torah, koran, bible and others for comparative religions class (yeah I did have one of those in high school).
Teach bible or any religious text from a religious context is against constitution but It does play a part in the historical context for saying how it influences founding fathers.
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Paul Edward Nunis
There's more than 1 take on history. Pretty well documented that the Puritans came here, because England wasn't doing enough (in their view) to persecute Catholics. Once here, they actually hung Quakers for reading the Bible.
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Danielle Elizabeth Ostach
While there are many takes and a huge depth to history. The point is that you can't when teaching history ignore the impact the various religious texts had on history. You don't teach the faith, you don't teach bible is word of god or its rules and its good and bad. you teach its impact on history and how it influenced things from crusades to red cross. From the mega churches to the small ministries.
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Paul Edward Nunis
Again... which 'The Bible'?? Greek? Hebrew? Catholic? Protestant? Deist? Dead Brirish royalty forgery? Upside down one with the 2 guys from Corinth and the Shakespeare Commandments?
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Pastor George Day
Paul Edward Nunis,
What non-sense!
There's only ONE Bible!
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Rev. Michelle Love
Whoever made this mandate clearly never read the Bible in its entirety as it was not written for children. I challenge Ryan Walters to pick up his Bible and just read the titles of every chapter in it and, if he still feels that it is appropriate to discuss such heavy topics such as murder and death, prostitution and slavery, disease and bodily discharges without the consent of their parents, then be prepared to find funding for additional school counselors and possibly therapists for the children who are not ready to handle this type of content.
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Ari Joseph Bertine
So they aren't thinking about the fact that forcing non-Christian teachers to teach the Christian bible is infringing upon their religious freedom? Isn't there another article in this same newsletter about a guy winning his legal case for his company forcing him to do something that impinged on his religious freedom? Well...play stupid games, win stupid prizes, I guess. They will learn.
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Michael S. Russell
I am sorry if I offend anyone, but religion is NOT history as this governor would like you to believe. Religion is FAITH BASED. And it is something that can be embraced for those that choose that religion. But forcing a religion onto others and calling it "history" is outright wrong and destroys the illusion that everyone has the right to follow their own religion. This push to make America a Christian Theocracy is an affront to our forefathers and a direct violation to the Constitution of the United States of America. I VOTE NO.
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Rev. Laurie G. Cleveland RN
This is against the First Amendment. This country came into being on Religious Freedom. Therefore, this is nothing more than what decision I was forcedcto make between the Southern Baptist youth groip that I often attended and the Congregational Church that I got confirmed in. I went to one of those youth rallies and they are very effective in making the decision to turn your life over to Chist. Well, if it stopped there, fine, but it didn't. You were expected to go out and preach the Word of God tobeverybody. I had a problem with that. Actually a very big one. Here I am and my great grandmotger on my mum's side was a SPIRITUALIST the hall that they used was the old Boston Spiritualist Church. My fatger's grandmother was raped by a priest ip in PEI and nobody would believe her, so she came down to Boston and could re-write history as there had been a wR and she could always make up dome cock and bull story because back then, you were shunned or worse if you gound out thst you were prenant out of wedlock. While people came for religious freedom, they didn't extend it to the Native Americans who were much more spiritually minded than any of these idiots will ever be. Truth bevtold, you have the black slaves who came over and forcibly converted. Their religions weren't taken into account. The catholics used the New Testament and primarily Psalms. You have Wiccan, pagans and people from ddifferent religions including Islam and others. By making teachers add The Holy Bible to American History. They are trying to forve a viewpoint that is far from correct. Yes, a lot of the forefathers were christian, jewidh or an interesting amalgam called UnitRians and if you have ever been to one of their services, they are just plain weird. There are those who practice Zorasterism. That, Christianity and Islam all appeared around the sMe time. Then we have Gnostics, atheidts and my least non-favoriite group zsatanidts. There are Hindus and Sihks. In short my beliefs are really differentbthan what this Bible thumping superintendrnt wants to happen and itvis bestvtaughtbin Sunday Schjol and church, not public school. We got away from the Lord's Prayer and hhadcacmoment of silence just becausevof this alone. Thrn you have anotger nutjob that wants the 10 commandments in school. They took them out of the courts where tgey would have been more to the point. Again, if you are dealing with a religious school than you cannmake a case forveither ofvthem, but zi draw the line at this. I don't line that Roe v. Wade got overturned because ofva relatively small pRt of the country's people didn't agree eith it. Talk to me when your dsughter gets raped or gets pregnant and you want her to have an sbortion or forve her yo give ip a child becayse she's an embarassment. What about the boy or man? It takes two and the Republicans lost both my mum and I over the republucal platform for pro-life. I listed as an Independendent, but now it's avpolitical party do uou have to do undecided. Honor your mother and your father. Thst's really good since they have been brainwashing kids to rat out their parents if they don't agree with the discipline that they used. Thou shalt not kill. What has this country been doing since it's inception? Just two of them. Idk who decided to pull all of this crap, but my daughter got pregnant and she wasn't married and hsd no experience with kids. None. She lied about the codome breakingband waited to tell me until the baby's heartbeat could be heard. Too late. Had it been the next day, I knew how to fix the problem. Obviously, she knew that. Thst'sxehat hsppens when mum is s home health RN and a damned good one! No, if you want your kids to learn religion, uou take them to Sunday School and Church or whatever. Give them a basis. Let them decide their pathway. God wouldn't have spoken to different groups unless He/Dhe wanted to be heard. Both are way outvof line and Roe v. Wade needsxto be put backbon the books who would rathercsee a mum who has to make a very difficult decision because she has been diagnosed with cancer and the treatment would hurt or kill the unborn baby. We went through that and this group has jonbusiness tellingveverybody how to worship in a public school. Totally inappropriate.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Laurie G. Cleveland RN,
Abortion = Nazi extermination of babies
You don't need religion to figure that out.
One day history will tell, as was the case with Hitler!
Shalom
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Tamika L.Joiner
No I am going to say a a RELIGIOUS Leader myself. You CAN NOT FORCE your BELIEFS on EVERY OTHER RELIGION 🙏🏼. Maybe their should be a RELIGIOUS HOUR for EVERY FAITH 🙏🏼. May GOD BLESS YOU ALL with Peace, Comfort, and Understanding. In JESUS NAME AMEN.
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Daniel Todd Kamm
Sorry... "tense frustration" ... that should have been: "haven't" corrected the ills... It's all good... tk.
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Daniel Todd Kamm
Today was the first day back at the school where I am embedded ... I work for a private behavioral health company that provides services in many of our area's public and private schools.
By virtue of my role, and my agencies guidelines, my state's licensing guidelines, and my profession's ethical guidelines, I fully respect my clients' diverse personal beliefs, practices, etc. etc. No problem for me, full stop.
Yesterday, there was an announcement over the school's PA system asking that all staff assemble outside the front of the building for a prayer before the start of the school year.
I did not attend.
The organizers thought, wrongly, that conducting the prayer outside the school building was sufficient, after all it wasn't "in the school."
And that's where it starts... small, seemingly innocuous intrusions... versus the full frontal payload of states like Louisiana and others.
Religion, I feel, is best kept in the heart, in the home (preferably over food!) , and in the house of worship one chooses. This nation is not a theocracy and it does not take a study of history or politics to see where religious intrusions often do lead.
On Friday, I am going to give the school Principal (because the "Principal is your 'pal' ") a dose of the laws in this state... which, while often Red, turns Purple then Lavender under pressure.
Keep that religious junk out of the classrooms and out of the teachers, kids, the parents, and other folks' faces ... if the "Word" and all the other "words" hasn't corrected the ills of the world by now, they aren't going to ... ever...
And, on another note, it's illegal... except in certain states that still don't understand or accept the word "racism."
Peace, Out.
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Pastor George Day
Daniel Todd Kamm,
With utmost respect, this is absolute nonsense!
Religion is a heritage of the people that form our countries. You don't have to embrace any of that, but they still have the right to express it.
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Maria Elisa Koch
I thought that church and state(school) was suppose to be separate? In the 60-70's we had CCD on Wednesdays and went to a religious school for our learning. Who is pushing for the schools to do this?
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Paul Edward Nunis
The Bible? Which one... (historically speaking, of course)?
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Michele Marie Miles
When I was in 10th grade college prep English, we did a unit on 'world literature.' The very first story in the unit was noted as the 'greatest love story of all time' and it was found in the book of Genesis. The teacher handled it well and taught it per what the textbook went over. The literary aspects. The story. Nothing to do with religion or foundational history of man. Just, a plain old love story. At the time, I found it interesting in that it was taught from a literature perspective and not a religious perspective. It did make sense to me that, being I was in a public school, it was taught that way. There was no bible in the school. It was in the textbook itself. The only reference to the bible was that was where the story was pulled from. This is how it should be done and not in the manner this representative is mandating and being ugly about it is not the right way to go about things. Further, the Constitution itself mandates separation of church and state and this representative is severely blurring the lines.
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Pastor George Day
Michele Marie Miles,
As a Christian myself, I think you make a very valid point.
Thank yu for the length in expanding it.
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Shane Michael Westerbur
This is a very touchy subject, on one hand you have the need to teach the philosophy that prevails throughout history. On the other hand if used incorrectly can be used to indoctrinate students to a set of beliefs. There is a very thin line on how teaching this would be very beneficial. Which are schools have been designed to indoctrinate a collective belief for a long time now and it has slowly turned into what we would call "woke". Now I have a suspicion that they want to swing the pendulum to the other side. We know that for every action is an equal and opposite reaction and that is what we are starting to see here. Somewhere in the middle is the correct answer.
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Shane Michael Westerbur
I see after posting that my autocorrect doesn't know the proper use of are and our.
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Max Peter Grilly
If I were an Oklahoma teacher I would find this compulsory instruction a violation of state law and the US Constitution. That said, teachers might as well have fun with it and teach those 5th graders all about Lot and his daughters. Spicy stuff!
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Michael S. Russell
I like your way of thinking! Christianity is not my religion of choice, but I did read it and found the story of Lot and his daughters fairly messed up. Not to mention the the full story of Abraham and Rebecca is horrifying and "God" played along.... for the most part. That should be taught along side the story of Lot!
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Danielle Elizabeth Ostach
The problem I have is that the original article doesn't discuss the actual context that it is supposed to be taught. Taught as bible influenced these people that they spoke out in this way and it affected formation of country is legit. Reading the bible and teaching the faith in it is not.
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Cheryl Pettijohn
Ryan Walters wants to groom children to believe as he does.
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Ronaldo
You cannot teach history in detail without bringing up the influence that religious documents and beliefs had on past events. Without religion being mentioned, the Crusades would make little sense to students. History students would not be able to understand why our Founding Fathers made some of the choices they made if they were unaware of how these men were influenced by the Bible. Teaching students the importance of the Bible in American history does not mean they actually have to teach from the Bible.
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Martin L Stigleman
Exactly what "choices" did the Founding Fathers make based on the Bible? The only DOCUMENTED choice was in the First Amendment, which states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." George Washington stated that the government “gives to bigotry no sanction” and “to persecution no assistance.".This supports the principle of separation of church and state, advocated by Dr. John Clarke, Roger Williams, William Penn, James Madison and Thomas Jefferson. At NO TIME did the Founding Fathers base their decision on any religion. The entire precept of the Constitution was based on Freedom and Human Rights.
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Danielle Elizabeth Ostach
The concept of Christianity IS enshrined in one of the country's founding documents. This needs to be discussed and addressed even if we don't teach the religion.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." So there is mention of Creator or God in a way and that is part of the thinking. Don't need to teach the bible but reference it as source for thought by founding fathers.
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Joseph Walter Kasper
Our Founding Fathers were Mason, not Christian. That's EXACTLY why they left people's faith freely to themselves. Side-note: The cover-page illustration got the quote wrong in the first place, Jesus taught, as we're told, we are ALL the children of God . . . so saying "one and only Son" goes counter to the truth. Religious freedom in America is the freedom OF and FROM religion. We were not established as a Christian nation, we are a free nation. The Universal Life Church embraces ALL expressions of faith without exception . . . That's what Universe means. UNI = One Verse = Expression It does not mean one version as Oklahoma may try to enforce. I have explored wisdom teachings from around the world and they all offer that golden thread of Truth. It is well known among those of us who look, "The spokes of a wheel get closer, the nearer the hub". Each of us experience the divine in different ways so argument is as the fruitless fig tree. Nothing can come of it. Understanding the Universality of it all, sectarianism is a diminutive process. It diminishes us.
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Pastor George Day
Joseph Walter Kasper,
John 3:16 refers to Jesus as uniquely being the Son of God, ie one of a kind. There is no Engish adjective for that, hence the transliteration: one and only...
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Catherine Anderson
One of the biggest gifts God gave to humans was freedom of choice. Christianity is but one pathway to God. It is not the only, path. America was founded on various principles, ideas and philosophies not just one. I t was a collaboration between many different perspectives of people. People originally invaded America in flight away from religious persecution via their homelands. Or simply because they were different.
Yet as history purveys, there is no such thing as religious freedom. Nor does there seem to be any fundamental form of acceptance of those who choose for themselves or think for themselves.
In a country where only 37% of the population is actually Christian faith, this tactic of using the law to force an ideology onto others is not ethical.
An age old wisdom would certainly be more accurate in this case: “Nothing makes a child dislike a religion more than forcing them to be taught it, in an attempt or agenda of another, than at being forced to taught it during their youth against their own families culture choice. For they will grow to learn as adults to despise it. Thus turning it to use in their destructive hatred of others.”
I have to say I am truly grateful for being allowed choice to choose what I believe. A choice which I will continue to advocate for others of all ages.
Just a thought.
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Rev. T
The only way a State can mandate the teaching of Christianity in public schools and remain consistent with the Separation Clause of the Constitution is to teach it side-by-side with all other religions. This should be acceptable to everyone, unless their goal is to fragment the Union in the name of their religion, or "states rights". $.02
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Steven Ferrell
If teachers are made to teach the LBG…alphabet agenda, they should also teach the Bible. If they don’t want to teach the Bible, then don’t teach the trans or LGB whatever the rest of the alphabet agenda is. That agenda is very offensive to many people, yet many school districts will not allow a student to be excused from hearing that garbage.
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Cheryl Pettijohn
There is no LGBT agenda other than to be allowed to live authentically.
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Russel A. Kester
Cheryl, that's not true. There is an agenda by the far-left, wokeism to teach various critical theories (by whatever name) which seek to indoctrinate children. They use the idea you wrote as a cover for their propaganda. It's ingenious, and it's a lie.
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Bond Wright
Actually one SHOULD take out all sexist, racist and harrnful (like it's good to take slaves) texts to avoid further harming people. Common sense.
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Russel A. Kester
Bond, what is your idea of harmful? For example, ancient Roman soldiers took youth from the Germanic tribes and sold them into slavery at Roman slave auctions. Did learning that harm you?
According to Google AI, "Based on available historical sources, it can be clearly established that women in ancient Greece had an inferior position to men. They were primarily viewed as 'species-extending beings'. In none of the Greek city-states did women have political rights and were not considered as citizens." Does that knowledge of ancient Greek society cause irreparable harm or does it help to better understand why ancient Greece had the society it did?
Having an accurate understanding of history is not harmful, and no text should be modified to fit current sensibilities as doing so distorts history and creates false historical narratives.
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Shane Michael Westerbur
Comment removed by user.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
The state wants to teach all students about one particular branch of sci-fi, kkkristyinsanity. Why would a jewish, or muslim, or hindu child want to be exposed to the kkkristofascist manifesto? It's not like any other religions are going to be taught (equally or otherwise).
This entire "act" has been designed especially for the blow back. The instigators of this theocratic mandate specifically intended it to be handed up to the SC, it's how the kkkristofascists are working to get their sharia-esque beliefs into the law of the(ir) land.
And let's not forget that the gov(?) of OK thinks that the bible will help the children of OK to learn more about how something something something...because with a national ranking of #49 in education, you would think that the gov(?) of OK would be less concerned about pushing his kkkristofascist agenda on the state and more concerned making sure the children of OK can read. At least teach them to read so that you can then force feed them your prehistoric, ignorant goat herder nonsense.
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Catherine Anderson
Agreed. Also, is the state also forgetting the thousands of Native Indigenous People who live there too? Ones who had whole families wiped out by Christianity? Are they going to teach how they used their faith and the bible to send them away to the equivalent of concentration camps, abused the children, forced them into slavery? Etc?
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Ealdormon Piparskeggr Robinson
When I was in high school, we had an elective class we could take, which I did: The Bible as Literature. As I recall, which I admit is faulty, we used the 1st edition of the New International Version from 1973..
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Russel A. Kester
That is interesting to know. Was your school a public school?.
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Ealdormon Piparskeggr Robinson
Yes, it was. I think I received a very good education therefrom.
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Cheryl Pettijohn
I have heard that this was an excellent course.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
Fine, they want to teach religion in schools? Then they MUST teach about all religions, not just one. They must have courses on being Muslim, AND being Catholic AND being Christian, AND being Pagan, AND being Taoist, AND being of the Satanic churches, etc.
The United States of America is a Secular nation. As such, in the 1st amendment, it very clearly states that no law, anywhere, will be made that will enforce, or recognize, any one religion. These states making laws enforcing the teaching of religion in public schools are 100% unconstitutional according to the 1st amendment.
The ONLY way that these laws would be constitutional, is if they taught ALL religions, not just one. But of course, that's not what the zealots want. They want THEIR one religion, biased and filled with hate, to be the only one taught. That is why this school will WIN their fight against the state's new laws.
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Russel A. Kester
But Bridget, the texts of those other religions did not inform and form our Western civilization. However, if one were in Saudi Arabia, then the Koran would hold such a position of importance in that society. Geography and history are important in this context.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
Actually, those texts of other religions DID help inform, and form our western civilization. And the koran does hold a position of import even here in the USA.
For example, the mathematics we teach kids? Where do you think it came from? Simple, from the Hindu-Arabic numeral systems. And what do they worship? That's right, Islam and multiple other religions including the Hindu religion. Simply put, all of our modern mathematics started in the Middle East. And as such, that religion is just as valid as Christianity, or Judaism. And I am talking of history and geographical significance as well.
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Pastor George Day
Bridget Kielas-Fecyk,
Interesting you include Satanism.
So, have you heard of the Bestie di Satana?
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
As a matter of fact I have heard of the Bestie di Satana. However, what does a group of serial killers have to do with making sure ALL religions are accounted for in the studies?
You ARE aware that the modern church of satan does NOT actually worship satan, and encourages people to be kind to others, to be accepting, and mandates that harming others, outside of self-defense, is absolutely anathema to their beliefs, do you not?
Do you know anything about the group at all?
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James Riggle-Johnson
Walter’s mandate is vague. Public schools already teach how the bible has influenced western civilization in an historical context. Its effect on laws, art, and literature. I would not want a schoolteacher to teach specific passages in the bible without an understanding of what those passages actually mean. They don’t have the experience or education to do so. They aren’t Pastors, Priest, or Theologians.
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
What’s most irksome about those, such as Oklahoma’s State Superintendent of Education, is that the Bible he wants to force all of Oklahoma’s public school students to be confronted with, is the King James Bible, and King James was an avid opponent of democracy, who did everything he could possibly do, to keep, what is now the USA, under the complete control of the British monarchy, where there was no Bill of Rights, a Constitution, and, perhaps most importantly, firearm possession was denied to the common people, but not the British aristocracy. You’ll have to ask Walters himself, why he wouldn’t use the patriotic Thomas Jefferson Bible; if that is, there is to be any Bible-reading in Oklahoma’s public schools at all.
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Russel A. Kester
There is nothing patriotic about the Jefferson Bible. Thomas Jefferson didn't like anything related to the divine or to miracles and bastardized the Bible to meet his personal beliefs. His thoughts were much in alignment with many of the elite of his time who were influenced by the enlightenment. However, the masses did not share their values or beliefs. Much about the enlightenment was good but not everything.
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Lionheart
Sounds very much like what Emperor Constantine did at Nicaea, who was very Pagan for much of his life. He clearly had his own ideas as to what he wanted people to see and believe. Much like those early scribes of the Old Testament with their fallacious stories of Adam and Eve, and a talking snake, and talking ass. No one will be gullible enough to believe those stories now though will they?
Oh…..but wait. 🤭
🦁❤️
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart,
I suppose you'd call me gullible...
What does that even mean?
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Lionheart
It depends, Sir George, if you want to believe in a talking Snake (Sepent), a talking Ass, and Adam and Eve, as stated in the Bible. You can add a unicorn to that list, a man parting the Red Sea, and a woman turned into a pillar of salt. 🤭
🦁❤️
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart,
Of course, I believe that but the theological take goes deeper than the fairy tale approach.
Did you notice that all demons (aka Egyptian gods) are portrayed as serpents?
Even Lillith, the first woman created by God who made herself a demon by her own choice (this story is in the Talmud and identifies Lillith as the woman of the first Genesi creation account) handles a snake!
That i a portrait of evil entities.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Why? Because it strips the Bible of its most superstitious elements to focus on Christ’s teachings of honoring the golden rule and loving your neighbors? The idea of natural being used in the enlightenment period would be in later years debunked and shown incomplete. He stripped that book of fiction and made into a better philosophy. Jefferson may have been a flawed man, but he was to see through sham of miracles and divine superstition.
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Russel A. Kester
Because one does not alter ancient texts to fit a personal agenda. Just as it's wrong for queer or feminist theologians to rework biblical texts and prayers to conform to their own perspectives and beliefs.
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Daniel Gray
whats more irksome then a fake Bishop spewing nonsense and hoping people will accept these lies.
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Pastor George Day
Daniel Gray,
Who's the fake bishop?
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Daniel Gray
Bishop William Dusenberry, DD. Or the person who posts under this name. At no time has this group had a title of Bishop so why he makes this false claim only he knows.
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Pastor George Day
Daniel Gray,
Thank you for replying :-)
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Diane Minna LaFave
While in the Elementary school I was one of several that read the Bible over the intercom . In class we said the Lord's Prayer . In the 9th grade we had a great Teacher that educated us in many Faiths. I thank him for that for it opened my mind and heart to all Faiths and being so made me a better person, Pastor and Missionary. Remove the fear of ignorance . Learn from others ; we have more in common than we have in difference. We all want freedom, to be able to raise our Children , Spiritual and physical needs. God wins , we win ! DmL
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Stacey Owens
Though you experenced the understanding that allow you to have a spiritual relationship. It wasn't under a mandate. You experenced your relationship with God and the Lord Jesus Christ freely. The time we live in now will be under rule of law without the spirit of love. The spirit of truth will not be in it and the life of Jesus Christ will not be revealed. The mandate will cause weakness, like punishment not fulfillment. For through the offence many feel rejection. The schools will create condemnation and confusion causing fear. God is not the author of confusion nor can you please God in fear. Its impossible to please God without faith. As it is written, "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of condemnation." In other words, with out the spirit of Jesus Christ, it won't succeed. Because everyone will fall short.
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Stacey Owens
Schools can not fulfill the law themselves. He didn't take it to the thorn of grace. This is not about faith. They will need a mandate to honor the law they are imposing. It's a two head coin. Without the power of God they will find themselves as criminals as well. Teachers will have to be God's elect to transform and fulfill, so that the laws He mandated can be fulfilled. The 10 commandments is the of the flesh. Jesus Christ is the fulfilling of the 10 commandments. He is the life God mandated to make one white as snow. Without the spirit of life, the mandate will not be fulfilled. Because those that created as law will be held accountable. As it is written, vengeance is mine says the Lord.
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ServantOfJudgement
I wish people could see that if it's not ok to teach the Bible in school then it's not ok to teach and enforce LGBTQIA++/woke philosophy in school.
I promise you, if I were forced to teach or entertain wokeness in my classroom, all of my students would walk away free of wokeness and have a firewall against it installed and active. Guaranteed.
I'm opposed to teaching Christianity in public school for this reason. Only a Christian is qualified to teach Christianity. Otherwise you'll end up with garbage and foolishness from the teachers mouth.
However, teaching the hypothesis of evolution should be accompanied with general creation. Some students are smart and inquisitive enough to ask unanswerable questions regarding evolution and creation alike. Both are scientifically impossible and unprovable by mankind.
That said, with the ever present effort to instill foolishness and insanity in our children across the globe, teaching the world's best antidote seems to be an appropriate response.
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Robert James Ruhnke
False equivalency, woke is just a red herring buzzword for things you don’t like. Teaching kids to accept lgbtq+ sing woke, it’s basic manners and teaching kids that it’s okay to be different. Nothing more. Christianity is nothing more than popular cult which should taught solely at home. Don’t like it, send you kid to a private religious academy. It’s amazing how you admit your cult is foolish and insane. Keep going, SOJ. You’re on a role.
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James Riggle-Johnson
They do not teach LGBT+++++ in schools. I have never heard of a class covering it. They may be mentioned in a history book here and there, but not a specific subject. Perhaps there are college level courses on LGBTQ history, but I’m betting that would not be a required course.
Also, they do speak about religion in school but it’s all religions. I agree with you a lay person should not be teaching people about religion or bible study. They are not qualified.
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Pastor George Day
James Riggle-Johnson,
Sexual Education may not be a school subject but it's still embedded in each curriculum. I'm a former teacher. I know.
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James Riggle-Johnson
I was not speaking of sexual education. I was talking about courses explaining graphic detail of what homosexuality is. Not everything about a homosexual or heterosexual is about having sex. It is about attraction.
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Pastor George Day
James Riggle-Johnson,
I am homosexual, so I would agree with that.
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James Grainger
If you teach religion in schools, then we can do away with the churches, won't need them anymore. Are you going to teach all religions or just Christianity?
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Nicholas J Page
No one has the right to force Bible studies on anyone.
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Samuel Tamayo
One nation Under God 🇺🇲 .
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James Riggle-Johnson
Added in the 1950's and is not in the constitution.
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Najah P Tamargo
Najah Tamargo-USA First...which Bible??? There are more than one. Second...religious belief comes from home, NOT school (unless your child is enrolled in a parochial school). Third....OK has a large Native population. Are they going to teach Native beliefs too??? Or just try to further indoctrinate them with the religion of the people that stole their lands? Fourth...the Founding Father's were pretty clear on separation of church and state. States run schools, so forcing "Bible Teach" is a huge NO NO!!!
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Pastor George Day
Najah P Tamargo,
There's only ONE Bible, just different translations.
Separation from Church & State isn't meant to blot out the Bible but simply to have no established denomination like in European countries (with the exception of Sealand, my own country).
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Robert James Ruhnke
Bravo to these patriots and hearty rebels. They understand what they are facing, and it is a mountain of ridiculous superstition based ignorance. I am hoping the Reservations get involved and keep from happening what was done to them all those years ago. The religious zealots of Oklahoma need to get some prescriptions for medical cannabis, it might settle them down some.
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Mark A. Bartholomew Sr.
If everyone is so worried about the separation of Church and State, offer the course as an elective. Teach it to those students that choose to learn the historical significance. Not giving our children the opportunity to decide in and of itself is control.
If we truly want our education system to work, we should support our past as much as our present otherwise we ourselves ae also guilty of control.
Knowledge is a gift to be shared, not removed because it no longer conforms to the social norm.
Minister Mark
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Daniel Gray
what separation of church and state? that has never appeared in the constitution even to this day and the very first mention of this myth was made in 1802 a good fifteen years AFTER the Constitution was made supreme law of the land, meaning that its going to take a constitutional amendment to put it in the constitution, not a letter from Jefferson to his Danbury Baptist detractors.
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Pastor George Day
Mark A. Bartholomew Sr.,
Very well said!
BINGO!
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
The Republicans are hell bent on turning America into a theocracy. I vote no.
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Larry Wayne Worley
You must be a Democrat. Democrats are famous for accusing Republicans of the very thing they themselves are doing. Lol
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Michael Howard Schrader
Unfortunately, my grandchildren will be force fed Christianity, because their school district is too spineless to stand up and be counted. Oklahoma keeps outdoing itself on how low it can go. Technically, most of the state is under tribal control as the original tribal jurisdiction was reestablished by SCOTUS (championed by Gorsuch), so the state really doesn't have jurisdiction. It will be interesting to see how the tribes, whose children were kidnapped and placed in religious schools in the name of The Bible to assimilate them, will react.
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Daniel Gray
they wont have to. A Reservation is its own little country. It has its own leaders and its own laws and the State (no matter whats left of it) has no legal authority to force this issue on them
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Ann Elizabeth Schurman
We are all one. We’ve forgotten our own divinity which allows each person to be guided by our hearts with love. Anything outside of this is separation. Religion is a device of control. School is as well. And control is outside side of our divinity. All is love. No law governs man. Only love
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Ann Elizabeth Schurman
We are all one. We’ve forgotten our own divinity which allows each person to be guided by our hearts with love. Anything outside of this is separation. Religion is a device of control. School is as well. And control is outside of our divinity. All is love. No law governs man. Only love. Listen to the hundreds of thousands of NDE’s (near death experiences. They all share this common thread. It’s not in a book.
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Ann Elizabeth Schurman
We are all one. We’ve forgotten our own divinity which allows each person to be guided by our hearts with love. Anything outside of this is separation. Religion is a device of control. School is as well. And control is outside side of our divinity. All is love. No law governs man. Only love
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Russel A. Kester
Ann, you wrote, "Religion is a device of control." I don't have that understanding of religion. Religion is how we share spiritual understandings and beliefs as communities. Do you think that Wiccans use Wicca as a device of control? If so, who are they controlling?
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Robert James Ruhnke
Wiccans don’t, the right wing abrahamics, right wing Jews, Christians, and Muslims do though. They use their religion as a cudgel, sword, shield, a true Swiss army cult of a tool. You yourself have tried weirdly using it as such too. Especially as you try to gaslight and lie in your arguments. Your understanding of religion is one sided and you only ever use other religions as lesser comparisons to your own superficial sense of faith. At one time or another in the last 5000 years, each of these abrahamic faiths has been weaponized lethal and turned on its neighbor. Wiccans shed their religion ages ago. It’s too bad the abrahamics dont. I suppose the thought of absolute power is too tempting to them. They have their own hang ups like all faiths do, but I don’t see them trying to push legislation which chokes others of their rights.
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ServantOfJudgement
Robert, you're telling me witchcraft can't be used to harm, control and manipulate other humans?
Really?
I'll go get a cup of coffee while you think of a way to say it can't be, won't be and never was.
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Paul
Witchcraft isn't real; it cannot possibly work no matter how much people claim it can. Conjuring tricks, mumbo jumbo, sleight of hand, a scam, childish nonsense that shouldn't be taken seriously. It has, at most, a placebo effect, and totally harmless unless you let yourself become stressed and anxious, in which case it's self-harm.
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Russel A. Kester
Paul, I'd hoped that over the weekend a minister who practices witchcraft would have responded to your challenge. Seeing that none bravely rose to the challenge, I'll step into the breech however inadequately. The foundation for witchcraft is the connection between consciousness and our experience of reality. The famous double-slit experiment showed that a conscious observer affects whether light acts as a wave or a particle. For over sixty years experiments have been carried out in well respected universities and similar organizations which have shown the effects of mind on matter as well as other psi claims. For those who like reading books written by very detailed, scientifically minded souls, Dean Radin, PhD has written several books on this subject with appropriate references and data. So the foundations of witchcraft has a basis not only in reality but in science as well.
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Bond Wright
Paul: Speaking of mumbo-jumbo, hocus- pocus. conjuring, childishness..Christianity has some of this, too:
1). Getting people down on their knees and feeding them grape juice and claiming it is the blood of their Christ then passing out carbohydrates wafers and claiming it's the body of J.C. 2). Claiming that their god, one day descended down to earth and visited Mary, had sexual intercourse with her--without touching her-then even more of a preposterous outcome--she gets pregnant and delivers a child. Sure. 3). Torturing a human being on a cross- like structure to death and then three days later he gets up alive and he walks away alive. Absolutely.
4). Claims there is one woman and one man and then their "god" says: go "forth and multiply." With who? How? Nobody is around except them. 5). Claiming J.C, he has two fishes and three loaves of bread and he feeds thousands. Say what? If that isn't hocus pocus, I don't know what is.
6). Gathered two of every kind and puts them on a ship while a big flood comes. There are millions of animals on this planet. Preposterous. ight Well, I could go on and on and on. There are many, many more examples. Good luck. Rev. Bond Wright-
Russel A. Kester
Bond, this topic was about witchcraft which you ignored in order to engage in bashing Christianity. However, your comments show a complete lack of understanding the Christian faith or its theologies. You're like the people laughing at Fulton's folly or that people could ever fly in airplanes. Casting dispersions on what one doesn't understand isn't a sign of intelligence. Seeking understanding is.
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Brien
Actually, Bond is correct. Every word.
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Bond Wright
When a Christian minister confronted Chief Seattle to shun his "pagan ways" and accept Christianity, the Chief said; Why should I exchange my myths for your myths? I'll take the Chief's myths any day to your myths as outlined in my first writing. Frankly, Christian bullies are a bore. And, other spiritual visions are better. Period. Thank you to Universal Light Church for making this forum available and to Rev. Hensley for creating this democratic church. So many have benefited!
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Russel A. Kester
Bond, you have every right to follow the beliefs of Chief Seattle. But do you? Based on what you've written, I don't think so. It seems your comment was sophistry intended to speak evil of Christianity of which your comments show a lack of understanding. I encourage you to get a good book on Christian theology to deepen your understanding.
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Pastor George Day
Paul,
If you have never experienced the bad side effects of witchcraft, you should minimize it in a general way. It disregards those who have highly been burnt by it.
I suggest you study some books by Fr Gabriele Amorth.
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Pastor George Day
CORRECTION: I meant, you should not...
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Robert James Ruhnke
All beliefs are tools, SOJ. Can be used for good or bad, Right? I’m not seeing mass movements of wiccans or witchcraft practitioners arming themselves to harm non believers. So your question is a disingenuous deflection from 2000 years of Christian harm done on humanity.
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ServantOfJudgement
Robert absolutely you're right. The quality of character will dictate what they do with their beliefs. People can get brainwashed too.
If wiccans were to organize and become a political power or global movement we'd expect the same sort of atrocities from them as we do from any other group at one point or another.
I personally have no desire to harm anyone or stop them from living the life they choose. God willing, I'll be treated the same way until they throw dirt on my face.
Christianity gave us penicillin and vaccines. Shall we attempt to tally the lives saved by these alone?
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Brien
What??? Scientists and doctors discovered those medications, not some make believe deity nor brainwashed zealots. Being Christian had nothing to do with it.
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ServantOfJudgement
Brien, they were Christian scientists, doctors and physicists. I continually read here and across the Internet atheists say christians are anti science. Christians brought us many many scientific advancements we all rely on today.
I'm just letting the people here know that Christian scientists brought us the things we rely on every day. That's all I'm doing. I'm correcting a false claim.
It won't be remember or even entertained though. The claim isn't presented as a fact but an insult and insults need not be true to get traction.
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Brien
SOJ, The private beliefs of the doctors or scientists had nothing to do with their contributions to medicine. Their hard work, dedication, and education is what created the medicines. I am not discounting their beliefs as they had the freedom to believe however they wished. But because they were christian, (according to you), had nothing to do with the discoveries. I wonder just how many jewish people helped out in those discoveries. Hmmmmm?
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Pastor George Day
Robert James Ruhnke,
Demonic possessions have been on the increase because of widespread wiccanism
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Pastor George Day
Robert James Ruhnke,
It's funny you say that LOL!
Vatican City State (aka Holy See) is a sovereign country with Swiss Guards as their mercenary national army!
Well spot on!
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Rev. Rory
Anyone can be a criminal when they are targeted by a law. The Health Department, The School Boards, local commissions, etc. all become criminals when they are targeted by state laws. My main issue Walters is that he wants to make thousands of people "the other." This makes some people, educators & students, into criminals because they believe in a separation of church and state. This is not freedom. Like Florida, OK wants to chase away the "woke." Woke means empathy and inclusion. It's very Christ like. If an entire state wants a theocracy, I suppose they can do so as long as there are free states. Should this become the law of the land, the US will officially be a theocracy. "The other" will be the enemy. They will be bullied, they will fall outside of the mainstream, and that is cruelty wrapped in a Bible. So sad.
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Russel A. Kester
Rory, yours is one definition of woke. But it's not the one people resist. It's the other definition of an ideology that is aggressive, far-left fascism. It is over the top absurdities and narratives worthy of its cult followers. I didn't see anything being presented that is akin to a theocracy. However, we would all benefit if anyone were able to actually find access to the requirements made by the state. At least then, we would understand the specifics in this conflict.
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ServantOfJudgement
Rory,
What you say about anyone being a criminal when targeted by the government is frighteningly true. Laws create criminals where there were none prior even though we need do laws. Here we all are arguing over which form of tyranny we prefer to live and die under. God help us all see truth.
Jesus has a personality that most aren't willing to look at face on at face value.
I can snip the parts I like and plug them into my philosophy or movement then call it righteous but that's about as close as I'd get to righteousness.
Jesus is all these nice flowery things we give him credit for. Forgiving, loving, merciful, compassionate with long lasting patience. He's also just and righteous. He's jealous for mankind as a loving husband is jealous for his wife. He's also in agreement with flooding the earth to destroy absolute wickedness and depravity, rejecting those who reject him and will deliver billions that hate him into a damnation they've chosen. He is judgement incarnate, the Lord's strange work.
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Robert James Ruhnke
lol it’s funny SOJ how you try push Christ as being the same as Jehova when that’s just a pagan interpretation of your supreme deity talking. Though I applaud you for admitting you plug your bigotry and hatefulness into your deity to feel a sense of self righteousness for condemning people who aren’t into your weird cult. So brave of you to admit it.
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ServantOfJudgement
Robert, it's not me pushing anything. I'm just repeating what the Bible says. Jesus the Christ and God are interchangeable in thought, attitude and directive.
We can dispute the origin of the Bible or how it's been recorded and translated. That's fair ground to stand on. We can't dispute what it says as written though. I'm just making sure that when people scream Jesus said love love love, he also will execute judgement, so says the Bible. That me and that you. I'm not worried for you friend, I'm worried for me, I've got my own hangups. You're fate is your own.
As far as you assuming I'm hateful and bigoted I wish you know me as those around me do. I have beers with gay and lesbian coworkers same as the straight ones. I gave some hand made maple whiskey from tap to flask to a fine gal that digs gals. There's a lot of work that goes into that. Ya don't just give that effort away to anyone that comes along man.
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Pastor George Day
ServantOfJudgement,
Which set of beliefs has the good news of a God choosing to become incarnate to share our poverty and even die for us?
I have looked around but I've only found that in Christianity.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Rory,
What you describe is already happening in Bosnia both with LGBT persons and with Jewish visitors. Very sad indeed!
I was a victim of homophobia an antisemitism all at once! Go figure!
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Russel A. Kester
Well this is exciting. I do hope the Supreme Court is able to consider the case as quickly as possible if any challenges are made through the court system. Walters should bring to bear every arsenal he has including revoking the licenses of districts that do not comply. This is a matter decided by the legal representatives of the people of Oklahoma and no school district has a right to disobey a lawful directive.
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Echo
Please, stop. Anger and hate don't have a place here.
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Russel A. Kester
Stop calling anything with which you disagree hate. If you have an argument to make, make it.
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Robert James Ruhnke
This is a matter of human rights, Kester. Not sportsball teams, not toppings on pizza, but fundamental human rights which begin when we are born. Which means trans youth have every right to be left alone by fundie wannabe Christians like yourself. You are a hateful liar, and I am not the only one who sees this behavior. You can’t lie or gaslight your way out of this. We aren’t being hateful either. We are holding you and your bigotry accountable by calling it out. These laws will end up targeting more cis gendered people than it will trans, especially those who do not fit the superficial and blind made cookie cutter gender essentialist views you push. Right wing Christians for the last 3 weeks have demonstrated they do not know biology or physiology for that matter. They’re calling anyone who disagrees with them trans and are doing it to their own. Whilst is ironically hilarious, though extremely dangerous as the right continues to grow even more unhinged as time goes by.
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Daniel Gray
and as usual, you use smoke and mirrors Ruhnke. how do you even start to think bringing in "trans rights" into a conversation or teaching American History? The only one who is dangerous here is you and your off kilter claims.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Notice how my comments have more votes than yours usually do, Grey. Seems to me the rest of blog typically agrees more with what I have to say than that do your. Your idea of American of history is half a story in its most comic book fashion. I’ve been studying this continent’s history going back 10’000 years, while you studying how to be a pretindian in order to dress up your out of context arguments about the constitution lol. Trans rights and the struggle to obtain them are part of our country’s short history. Saying I’m danger is just a confession on your part. Nice try though, Grey.
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Daniel Gray
And thats the problem. You just admitted you come here to stir up the pot and try and get people to believe your posts instead of debating. And that Runhke is why you get ripped apart in these threads and sorr by nobody cares how many time you uptick your own posts
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Brien
You and those like you are zealots and you have NO RIGHT forcing your fictional beliefs on children. You may teach your beliefs at home or in PRIVATE religious schools.
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Daniel Gray
SCOTUS says different in at least 6 recent decisions. They say that religious teachings ARE allowed in schools as long as they do not become a religious service.
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Brien
Religious teachings are a fictional beliefs and if you represent one, you must represent all of them. Forget about teaching anything real like math, sciences, and real history, let's just teach make believe, will that be ok with you Daniel?
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Daniel Gray
Oh really Brian, then please show which religions are fake according to you.
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Brien
All of them. Constructs created by man.
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Daniel Gray
you can keep saying that till you are blue in the face, but until you can actually prove it, then its your opinion and nothing more.
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Brien
Man made constructs with zero proof of mythical beings or places. Trying to create fact by zealots using modern tech still produces zero proof. Please by all means bend your knee and live in fear. I never will, nor will any of mine be brainwashed. I honestly don't care what you believe. I just care when zealots try to indoctrinate children with it. If you're a parent, then you understand when I say stay away from mine.
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Daniel Gray
yet again you post your own OPINION and dont give any factual data to back it up. So thats not thunder you hear, but the laughter of people at your posts.
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Brien
No, Daniel, it is the mythical god things that zealots try to pass as fact. So much so that the zealots want it taught in public schools. You may teach your children whatever lies you wish. You will leave mine alone. That IS a fact.
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Daniel Gray
Again since you refuse to prove anything about God being mythical, all you are doing is posting your OPINION and nothing more.
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Brien
The burden of proof doesn't fall to me but to you to prove fact. Until then, it is fiction. You are very backwards in your thoughts.
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Daniel Gray
No sorry, you claim there is no deity, so its up to you to provide proof of same. Your CYA smokescreen isnt working
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Tecla Caryl Loup
SCOTUS are nuts. It's impossible to trust their judgments these days when their biases are so blatantly visible, not to mention the illegal perks that they have been receiving. Having survived parochial school, I can say that while I did get an excellent education in many areas, e.g., grammar, arithmetic, etc., plenty of other topics of interest were ignored so that we could receive religious indoctrination. It would have been beneficial to at least some of us to have had more exposure to art and unbiased history and sciences among others.
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Daniel Gray
You DO know that 99% of the pro religious decisions were made when the SCOTUS still had a majority of the left on it right? That means they were made before 2016
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Russel A. Kester
Brien, such hostility. I am not forcing my beliefs on anyone. The people of Oklahoma are promoting their values as a community through their duly elected representatives. It's called democracy, something the left really doesn't seem to like as it interferes with their ability to propagate their hate and fascist ideologies.
As for private religious schools, I'm all for it! Let's all be sure to support universal vouchers nationwide so that all parents can send their children to good schools. That was a good idea, Brien.
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Brien
The only hostility I have is when people try to force their fictional beliefs on children or anyone else. The Nazis did that and killed a lot of people. Public schools are not personal pulpits where you tell people what and how to believe. The religious posturing is nothing more than brainwashed bigotry. I think my reaction to zealots attacking public schools is appropriate and justified.
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Russel A. Kester
When you say that you don't want people forcing their fictional beliefs on children, I agree which is why we must stop the wokeism which teaches children that man can be a woman or a woman a man and so many other things. Resisting these zealots from attacking public schools is appropriate and justified. So, how do we do that?
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Brien
Russel, I will not be pulled into another ideology. Schools, public schools, need to be free of ideology and stick to the reading, math, sciences and real history. I don't promote the teaching of ANY beliefs. Beliefs are taught at home, or in whatever private institution the PARENTS wish to use. Why is this so hard to understand?
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Russel A. Kester
Brien, I'm not trying to bust anyone's chops here, but I do wonder if it's possible to avoid ideologies in society as well as in schools. For example, somewhere around the late 70's America's school system was changed by the Federal Department of Education to respond to the higher percentage of boys going to college than girls. So, the system was feminized to make it more accommodating to girls. The result is that today more girls are going to college than boys by a greater margin than the supposed crisis in the 70's. And when school districts began to experiment to achieve greater equality in outcomes they were sued by the ALCU, the American Association of University Women and several other feminist organizations to prevent any changes in any public school across America. So a feminist ideology affected public schools across America with negative affects on boys. Even how children should be educated come from ideological perspectives.
As an aside, preliminary studies show that boys do better in single sex classes which the groups I mentioned above resist. The links below reflect a law suit in 2006 and another in 2014 so this issue is always on the ACLU's radar.
https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/aclu-wins-major-lawsuit-against-sex-segregated-school-louisiana
https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/aclu-files-federal-complaint-challenging-single-sex-class-program-rooted-stereotypes
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Shane Michael Westerbur
Sorry to tell you this but they aren't fascist they are marxist. Either way they support totalitarian authority. The right wing are the fascists. Mind you I am talking about extremists which seem to be dominating the news cycles, making it appear like we are way more polarized than we really are.
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Russel A. Kester
Shane, I agree the far-left is based in Marxist ideologies. I came across the idea of the fascist left and like it since, as a group, it shares many similar characteristics such as being a political ideology and movement, having a dictatorial style, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy (aka the hierarchy of victimhood), and subordination of individual interests (aka identity politics) which we attribute to fascist regimes.
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Robert James Ruhnke
lol take out all accusations of leftists and you have a perfect picture of the religious right and agenda to force their religious views on everyone. Every accusation of yours is a confession, Kester. Christians have been doing all of those things so long they fear the repercussions of their 2000 year old evil practices. Christians have been the ultimate identity politics of victimhood in order to push their more evil practices on everyone non Christian. The irony of it all is what I find most hilarious abiyt your attempted arguments.
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Tecla Caryl Loup
I do not believe that private schools should siphon off public funds. Those who choose this option should pay for it themselves.
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Russel A. Kester
Why should my tax dollars be spent in a failing educational system? Far better to allow my tax dollars to go where kids are educated better. Even then some of my tax dollars make their way to the public system. Maybe you can think of a better way for citizens to get to decide to which system their tax dollars will go.
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oy_gevalt
No state has a right to pass, let alone enforce, unconstitutional statues. I do not count on this Supreme Court to uphold the constitution, though, especially if King Don tells them not to.
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ServantOfJudgement
The federal government if forbidden from directly taxing citizens either. Oy There are countless things our government does to us that are illegal.
It's illegal to enter our county outside a port of entry.
It is however legal for the department of defense to test chemical and biological agents on citizens in public without their knowledge. It's in the fed code.
What's your point?
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
Sorry SOJ, but the Feds are NOT forbidden from directly taxing citizenry. And what does Taxes, undocumented migration, or ANY of that have to do with shattering the 1st amendment and ramming religion down the throats of those that don't believe in it?
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Patricia Ann Gross
SOJ, Read the 16th amendment to the constitution establishing the federal income tax. Therefore it is constitutional and not forbidden.
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ServantOfJudgement
That's a constitutionally illegal amendment Patricia. Too many words but it violates preceding verbiage.
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Patricia Ann Gross
SOJ, That's why it's called an amendment (to the constitution.) If you are that passionate about it, start a campaign to recind it, because it is part of the constitution, therefore, by definition, it is constitutional. The 18th amendment outlawed the sale and use of alcohol (aka prohibition), and it took another amendment (the 21st) to recind it (i.e., make it legal again).
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Daniel Gray
what constitutional statutes are you speaking of? The Separation of Church and state does not now nor ever has appeared in the Constitution no matter how you wish it otherwise and yet again the SCOTUS has already ruled at least 6 times recently that you can have religion in the schools. So your attempt to bring politics into this has failed and blew up in your face.
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Reverend Paula Copp
Mr. Kester, with all due respect, are you out of your mind? Are you one of those fundamentalists who thinks that earth history is only 6,000 years old and that dinosaurs either didn’t exist or walked alongside the apostles?. That makes as much sense as teaching the bible in school, which makes no sense at all!
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Russel A. Kester
Ms. Copp, I'm so glad that your questioning my sanity was done with all due respect (LOL). I am not a fundamentalist nor an evangelical nor a Pentecostalist. But I do believe in democracy and the rule of law. For the record, teaching some parts of the Bible either for literary purposes or to help students to understand better the references to biblical themes in classical literature is good. I assure you my sanity is safely intact. After all, would an insane person not say so?
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Brien
What about other religions? Will they be taught as well? What about the parents rights not to have their children taught such a bigoted and poorly translated belief? Will you take away their children if the parents do not comply? No matter how you sugar coat it, it still comes out bad.
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Russel A. Kester
What other religions are referenced in Western classical literature? As classics go, the Bible has been an enduring one. The KJV is a classic in a literary way by its composition in the Queen's language, showing how the language was used in passages such as the Psalms which were an ancient type of poetry. I swear that even the mention of the Bible or Christianity sends some people over the edge as if you'd just declared the bubonic plague.
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Brien
I'm sorry, you do know that the USA is the world's melting pot, right? You obviously also realize that as such we have a mix of beliefs in this country, right? Or do you believe that the western beliefs are the only ones? Hate to pop the zealot bubble but there are many beliefs, so the question stands. Will you teach them all? Will you ensure that all beliefs will be represented? How about making certain that only those qualified in all the different theologies are the only ones that will teach these classes? And just how do you propose to pay the millions if not billions of extra dollars it will take to do this? Just what reality are you looking at?
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Russel A. Kester
America derived from Western civilization not from any other. That is our history. Part of that history is how the Bible was understood, used, and affected society and its leaders. We do not need to know how North Korea developed as we do not live in North Korea. Yes, our society is a melting pot, not a salad. All who legally immigrated here chose to become citizens and our heritage becomes theirs. That is what makes us one people regardless of where our ancestors lived. So, no we don't need to spend money teaching Middle Eastern heritage and values. We teach those specific to us. I remember learning some things about other countries in social studies class so those topics are not ignored. But the Koran has had no influence on our history nor has Arabic.
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Brien
I didn't ask how America came to be, but thank you for the smoke and mirror update. There are MANY different beliefs in this country and many different cultures. Just because somebody becomes a citizen does NOT mean they give up their culture or their right to their own spiritual beliefs. How dare you proclaim otherwise. You truly are a zealot of the worst kind. You use flowery comments to hide the bigotry. Please, save your Internet for someone else. The more you say the more you prove my point.
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Russel A. Kester
First you wrote that America was a melting pot with which I agreed. Then you said that America has many different cultures. Those are contradictory concepts.
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Brien
How so? It is the mix of cultures that make our melting pot the greatest in the world. It is the freedom to pray or not to pray, the freedom to believe or not to believe. Not forcing beliefs onto others. You keep trying the zealots trick of changing the subject. It doesn't work with me.
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Russel A. Kester
Now you've returned to the symbolism of a melting pot with various cultures mixing in together. That's right. So when people's come here from other places they need to mix into the culture that's here. They need to be Americans. That means accepting our culture and heritage, our Western heritage.
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Brien
And once again you keep trying to change the subject. People are free in this country to believe and be as they wish, not as you and those like you tell them to be. Not to have your beliefs forced upon their children. Now, see how I brought us back to the current topic? Remember when I told you that zealot smoke and mirror tricks don't work on me? You are off on a tangent on trying to place your incorrect definition as to what this country is in order to justify your need to indoctrinate children. Won't work with me.
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Robert Gagnon
I think he means an incomplete emulsion.
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Pastor George Day
Russel A. Kester, You make a very valid point!
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Tecla Caryl Loup
Hey, what about those "apocryphal" books that have been kicked out of many biblical editions??? Like the story of my patron saint, e.g..
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Russel A. Kester
Ya, I wish they'd been included in the Protestant scriptural canons even if just in an appendix. But they're in the Catholic Bible or can be found in other books. But the decision on scriptural canon was made before our time and is also a part of our history. Those missing books show the effect the reformation had on Christianity and the Bible. And the reformation is a significant part of our Western heritage.
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Robert Gagnon
Don't see a problem with the Old Testament referencing ancient history, as long as Homer is also used when teaching about the Persian and Trojan wars. Such a shame that the early Christians destroyed the Alexandrian library. It was the most complete history of human facts and inventions ever compiled up until 2k years ago.
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Patricia Law
the bible is not literature or factual and to force children to read about killing people to take their lands wives or whatever else they desire, why????
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Russel A. Kester
Patricia, if you think that the only things written in the Bible are about killing people and taking their lands, wives, or whatever then you haven't read the Bible and you haven't read a good history book either.
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Brien
I would say the Bible represents death very well. I mean the great mythical being did commit genocide against the entire world, right? It also teaches fear, the whole get on your knees thing. I bow to noone and I certainly never taught my children to bow either. You may do so with yours but leave mine alone.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Not true, Kester. She’s just read more books than you, giving her the whole story. Not just the highlights which are apologist in nature. We know the true nature of your cult’s predatory practices. You won’t till it’s too late. In many Christian circles a gay man preaching the word of their god is an apostate thing to do.
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Pastor George Day
Patricia Law,
You pick and choose pars of the Bible that need to be put in context.
The Bible is the foundation of our Western heritage. All it takes to understand is studying history.
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Pastor George Day
Paula Copp,
History is 5784 years old, dinosaurs did exist (aka dragons) but did not walk alongside the apostles - they disappeared with the flood.
You believe whatever you like, but we Jews have a long tradition that goes back to Kabalah.
Shalom
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Asa William Sprague, II
"This is a matter decided by the legal representatives of the people of Oklahoma and no school district has a right to disobey a lawful directive."
Maybe you missed this part: "Per Oklahoma law, individual districts have full discretion over curriculum,.."
Which would indicate the state’s education superintendent ran afoul of state law when he told local school districts: “Adherence to this mandate is compulsory.”
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Russel A. Kester
Asa, per a local radio station, "The State Board of Education is requiring all schools to incorporate the Bible into lesson plans for students starting in the 5th grade." which I found here, https://www.khits.com/story/667de91188d2259633d3c04a/state-board-of-education-mandates-bible-in-curriculum-lawmakers-criticize-decision
Per Google AI, "The Oklahoma State Board of Education (OSDE) has the authority to adopt academic standards for public schools, which establish a framework for what students should know by the end of each school year. These standards cover a variety of subjects, including language, math, science, social studies, communication, and health and physical education. However, the OSDE's academic standards don't dictate how teachers should teach, mandate a specific curriculum, or require new instructional materials. Instead, the standards are intended to help educators ensure that students meet certain competencies in different areas."
My reading of the above is that the OSBE has the right to dictate what will be taught but not how as in establishing specific curriculums. But the districts must cover the topics and subjects so mandated. The State Superintendent is enforcing the directive of the board. So, yes, school districts which do not comply are disobeying a legal directive from the State Board of Education.
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Brien
Ahhh yes, que the Nazis. Let the brainwashing begin.
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Russel A. Kester
Nazis? Really? Nazis did not favor Christianity. It got in their way with its talk of loving others and caring for the poor and the sick. But the far-left has infiltrated our schools and are brainwashing children which should be stopped.
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Brien
If you can't see the similarities then you are every bit the brainwashed zealot I thought you were.
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Russel A. Kester
Brien, if you don't see the differences, then you are not looking hard enough.
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Brien
Sorry Russel, there are no differences. Forcing one belief above all else is the beginning. It truly frightens me that full grown people can't or won't see it.
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Russel A. Kester
It is astounding that anyone would equate having a Bible in a classroom for reference purposes to the atrocities committed by the Nazis. Either one has no idea how violent, hatred, and murderous the German Nazis truly were or such a person is out of touch with reality.
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Brien
So, when your mythical god thing committed genocide against the whole planet that was a good thing?
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Russel A. Kester
What does your disbelief in God have to do with your comparison of the presence of a book in a classroom to Nazis killing Jews, gays, Poles, the mentally handicapped, and others? What does it have to do with the millions killed because of the war the Nazis' started? It's a book sitting on a reference shelf not an atomic bomb, but you compared it to the Nazis. Bizarre.
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Brien
Once again, as a zealot does you continue to change the subject. Allow me to help you. 1. The discussion is religious beliefs taught in a classroom mandated by the PUBLIC school board governing body. 2. I NEVER said anything about banning the fictional book from any library, nor anything about allowing a child to read it. 3. The Nazis also tried to force their beliefs upon adults and children and committed horrific crimes against humanity. Ok, I have dialed us back in. Your welcome.
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Tecla Caryl Loup
Now that's a load of bull.
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Russel A. Kester
How so?
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Pastor George Day
Brien,
Have you come across the story of St Maximilian Kolbe?
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Minister Ralph Krebbs,
Let us be correct! As a believer and a follower of Jesus Christ. I am commanded to teach my children the ways of the Lord my God. This is the requirement of being a good father, which can rear up his child, children of this world. The Bible of God and Jesus Christ is the only Book approved to be a guide in life. I approve the bible for this purpose. To include, it helps as a continue life example in all matters that one may come in contact within this world.
Minister for the Kingdom