The following guest sermon was submitted by ULC minister Z. D. Caballero. All ULC Ministers are invited to contribute their own sermons for consideration/publication. To submit a sermon, please email it to sermons@ulc.org.
Although I have only been an official ULC minister for a little under 4 and a half months, it seems I have been ministering to others my whole life, or at least since age 10. Ever since that age, folks just sit next to me and vent about whatever is going on in their lives. In time, this evolved in them asking for advice after the venting would occur. In a very natural, unconscious way, everything I have studied and done in my life has prepared me to be their minister or spiritual counselor.
Having people, sometimes complete strangers talk to me is quite normal, for me at least. At age 10, in elementary school, a fellow student sat next to me in the school yard one day and started talking about what was going on in his life and his dreams for his future. This continued with other kids and adults. At age 15 my girlfriend confessed her fears about being ugly and her bulimic tendencies, a brave thing to do. At 18, a fellow classmate talked to me about a great decision he had to make: whether to start a family with his now pregnant girlfriend or go to college. At age 30, an elderly man sat next to me and told me all about his worries for his children: he was near death and worried about their future. Every day this goes on. Every day.
In time, people, after spilling their hearts to me, would ask my opinion or advice. Should I leave my wife/husband and seek my dreams? What do you think, is my boss coming on to me? I feel like ending it all, you know; am I crazy? I am afraid of dying, kid; do you think I will go to Hell? As you can see, this would seem overwhelming to a 10, 11, or even 30, 40 year old person.
I felt a sense of responsibility toward these people, felt I had to prepare to be helpful. Since where I live, most folks are of a monotheistic faith, I first learned from those Scriptures: Bible, Torah, and Quran and Hadith. As I studied the Scriptures, histories, and other literature, questions arose, so I asked elder ministers of those faiths for clarification. They would point out books and commentaries, which led to more history books, and I learned those lessons as well. This led to curiosity on my part for other non-ministry related skills, so I took courses for those skills too. One of them is listening. As I listened to those who talked to me, I learned from them about all sorts of human experience, perspectives, world-views, etc. I became the eternal student.
Therefore, and pardon the long story, does this mean I was born a minister, or became one? Truthfully, most of these ideological conflicts we hear about: nature vs. nurture; church vs. state; science vs. religion vs. philosophy vs. theology are truly moot to me. They are non-conflicts, really.
They are just issues of perspective. But, back to nature vs. nurture as it regards ministry: I know, at least in my experience, that both sides are right.
I was born with the potential to become whatever, a tabula rasa as it were. But my experiences, my upbringing, all the good and bad things that happened, all my decisions and actions (good and bad) led me down a path that ended where I am now: I minister (that is, serve) those who feel lost, powerless, without the will or energy to go on because of their experiences, decisions and actions led them to where they are now. So in my nature there was the potential of a minister, and my nurture molded that natural potential into the minister I am today. It’s all good!
All that said, whatever the reason for which you became a minister, in whatever faith or tradition it is you serve, thank you for letting yourself be led to where you are, and may you continue to be of help and inspiration to those who call on you to be so! May all have an excellent, lovely and blessed life, no matter what happens in your days!
90 comments
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John P Maher
I DO NOT HAVE THE FOGGIEST IDEA ???
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Rev. Elizabeth
Just hit ya one day. Heh?? I was 6yrs old when it hit me and in a totally different religion. Catholic to Methodist. God Did it. He stopped important things in my life and He led me to my new church and religion. I was home. It felt so right.
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Lionheart
Do you have any evidence that a god did it? I’ve heard similar stories by others that a god led them to Mormonism, and a similar story from a Hindu friend of mine. 🤷🏼
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Brien
I was born a human being. No label, no misunderstanding. I realize that is boring by today's standards. Peace ✌️
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Sounds like you were born a minister. Or that you have run into people that like to talk.
Myself, ‘nature’ spits us out of the womb with various genetic makeups. Of course the world nurtures, or stifles (negative nurturing??), those tendencies. My tendencies are toward learning about and understanding how the physical world works. The soft sciences of sociology and psychology have always been interesting to me but the frequent lack of objectivity in those studies limited my interest. And an example of that lack of objectivity is the nature vs nurture issue.
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Rev. Elizabeth
I was always going to church since my first memory with my parents. Then it was just me and my Mom. I don’t know why I was chosen. Many people were going to church and heard the Priest and yet I declared I have to work for God. It was innate. Like you said, people are born with different traits and talents. Why can’t it be accepted that God chose me to work for him? I asked a lot of questions as a young child. I would just sit and ask my parents about people compared to the Bible people I called them. My whole dang family serves the Lord in many different ways. Many amounts in my grandparents relations, many working for God. No one ever told me that about them. When I declared I have to work for God, then I was told how many Nuns were in my family, a couple of Priests as well. The best way I can tell you, it was innate. I was born to work for God and I don’t think that is a bad trait to be born with. It’s innate.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Sounds less like a magical being ‘calling’ you or more like ‘your whole dang family’ exposing you to religion.
That’s what ‘nurture’ is all about.
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Sharrell Ronald Taylor
I absolutely agree and feel the same way. All my life I’ve had this feeling and urge to help others and the more I do the more I realize I was born for this. I’m now ordained and still helping. God bless
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Why didn’t you become a doctor if you wanted to help people?
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Rev. Howard Slayton
Not everyone can become a doctor.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Rev. Howard Slayton Yet anyone can become a pastor or minister including sexual predictors, rapists, child molesters, con men, scammers and liars.
What are the credentials to become a minister? Have a pulse. And if you really want to dupe members of your congregation you can get a PhD from an unaccredited universities so you can say you are a PhD.
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Rev. Elizabeth
Why are you so angry?
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Rev. Elizabeth How can one not be angry with all of the lies and false teaching Christians, Mormons and Muslims are spreading in the name of God. Christians and the Mormons are by far the worst. Just take a look on YouTube and TikTok to see the flat out lies these people of God are spreading.
Maybe you like being scammed and lied to, but I do not.
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Rev. Elizabeth
The Devil is ever present on earth. It’s his right now. He’s going to do his best to have people believe the Bible is all lies and God is a lie. But he’s not. He’s here when we call for him. He’s ever present as long as you call upon him in Jesus name. As long as you believe the propaganda that Satan puts out there, of course you won’t believe in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I can’t change a mind that doesn’t want to believe. What I do for you is give you to God. In Jesus name, I give you to God so you may know the truth.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@ Rev. Elizabeth
I have a mind that is open to charge and what you presented has changed my mind about Christians. The devil like God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are all mythical beings as are leprechauns, unicorns, fairies and boogie men why would you are anyone believe they are real?I am not aware of any propaganda Satan puts out there. Can you share some of it with us?
Do you believe God loves you? Let’s see what the Bible tells us.
https://youtube.com/shorts/DWmOD2yDOzo?feature=share
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Why is asking why you didn’t become a doctor if you wanted to help people indicative of ‘anger’. That question is another ‘nurture’ aspect of religiously delusional people.
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Rev. Elizabeth
It’s the nature of your question. It could have been said; “Alright, you say to help people, why not become a doctor instead?” See why I said to me it felt like anger. To answer that, I have a degree in Pastoral Care which is mental therapy. Patients came to me through their church. They were more comfortable with a therapist that has God in their heart. The private sector you are not allowed to let your patient know how you feel with our religion, our higher being. Even thought it is the Christian God like most of my patients were. So you see, I was not a doctor but I wasn’t that far off. I said many times on this subject, I knew I had to work for God and that is where he put me on my journey. I was in college for psychology and one night as I was studying, God said “stop what you are doing and find a school that teaches you what you need to know to complete your journey to me.” So I have prof this happened? Of course not. So while I was in school for my psychology degree I was also in another college getting my degree for Pastoral Care. Does this answer your question? I had patients that I helped to get along in life and their feelings on their higher power feelings.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
You state ‘I had patients….’. Doctors have patients. At best you might call them ‘clients’.
Getting a ‘Bachelors of Science in Pastoral Care’ is an oxymoron.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
You have a degree in Pastoral Care? It takes about 10 years of study after high school to become a doctor. How long did yours take? And where did you get it?
And you think you’re not that far off. That’s cute.
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Rev. Elizabeth
I didn’t compare me to a doc. You know darn well what I’m talking about. This is beaming mute to me so I’m don’t talking to someone who challenges everything you say. I have a family member like you. This person doesn’t get many invitations or visitors. This person is like you. Challenging everything even they know darn well what someone means. You are like that relative of mine. No matter what I say to you, you will find a way to challenge my answers. I’m done. Be safe and be well. Find something to do something good for someone instead of chronically challenging.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
“ So you see, I was not a doctor but I wasn’t that far off.” Comparing yourself to a doctor is exactly what you did. Which is what I challenged you on. I have no idea what you ‘meant’ by the statement.
You’ve already stated that your entire family encouraged you to thought you should become a minister. That sounds as if your entire family share your religious delusions. This relative of yours… do they by chance challenge those delusions?
Religious people come to mind when I listen to a song by Genesis.
“Beware the fisherman who is casting out his line into a dried up river bed, but don’t try to tell him ‘cause he won’t believe you. Throw some bread to the ducks instead. It’s easier that way.”
Unfortunately I don’t take that advice. I don’t pander to the delusional. Religious people have done far too much harm over the years. Throwing imaginary bread to imaginary ducks isn’t my style.
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Rev. Elizabeth
Dr. Zerpersande - all judging, all knowing. You know nothing about me except for what I have said in here. You have no clue why I told my mother what my future holds for me. I’m surprised you didn’t say that I must have been Clairvoyant. I can write a book about my calling and my ability to know things before they happen. And then I will dedicate a section to you and all who are just like you. Satan working at his best here in this column you all knowing nothing. I prayed over you and for you. It must be hard to live a life comparing others to your higher superior person. A doctor of what he has not said but because he’s a doctor he is better than a woman reaching her goals of what she said when she was 6 yrs old.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Oh, sweetie, try to focus! I didn’t say that I ‘knew’ anything, Especially anything ‘about you’. Great Shades of ‘You don’t know me!’ I made comments regarding things you actually said on this forum, and gave opinions on certain aspects of religion and individuals that lead their lives around delusional beliefs.
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Rev. Elizabeth
What kind of Doctor are you? If you are a GP or specialized, I pray you communicate with your patients better than you do here.
Also, do not call me Sweetie, especially in a condescending way. Never the less, don’t call me sweetie. That is reserved for my husband and my parents only. I am done with this subject and you. I don’t even care to know what kind of doctor you are. I will no longer be on this forum. You took something that I have passion about and wanted to share with my brethren here. You have made it uncomfortable to now intolerant. Others have not bothered talking to me. So I bid adieux and I‘m sorry for anyone that has to put up with you. You are not a nice person.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
You’re going to leave the forum bc you can’t bear being challenged? Oh, honey! Physician, heal thyself!
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Dorothy Hawkins
It's interesting that your replies here seem to be extremely critical of people who have a faith system they operate by. Why do you post here? People have differing belief systems - do you accuse all people with faith traditions of being delusional? And why are you on this forum - for people who are ministers? This seems incongruous to the reasons for being here. Just questions - just asking.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Why am I on this forum and why do I post here are redundant, no? I’d prefer to respond to ‘Why did you come here?’ and ‘Why do you stay if you lack belief?’
I came here on a lark because my daughter was getting married and I wanted to be able to show her credentials to back up a jest of ‘Hey, I can marry you.’ It’s also incongruous for me to be an ordained minister. But my daughter and her husband married themselves. We live in Japan. I expatriated here 30 years ago, a move that was made much easier by the fact that such would result in much less contact with the nannerings of the religiously delusional. All that is required to be married here is to go to city hall, sign some papers and then walk out married. I did it as a joke.
Why do I stay? Because religious people have caused enough grief and they need to be challenged every time that they open there mouths with the nonsense. It would be enough of a reason if the grief were restricted to impeding human/scientific development, but it expands to wars, crusades, jihads and simply murdering those that either believe different nonsense or worse that they lack belief any in of the nonsense at all.
No more free ride for individuals to express religious views without being challenged. People don’t particularly care for being labeled as delusional, but the definition includes simply ‘having unrealistic beliefs or opinions’. Tough noogies. They otherwise may be decent people but they still believe some crazy notions.
My view is that religious people should treat their beliefs in the same way as some kinky sexual fetish. If you have a sexual fetish that involves human excrement, baby, urine, a diaper, duct tape, a wooden spoon, and some sandpaper that’s cool. knock yourself out in the privacy of your own home. Just shower and brush your teeth before coming out into society and keep your views to yourself. You have zero problems. But if you bring this crap up, expect to be challenged. No free ride for delusional religious people.
On this particular post, my point is religious people on here are getting in and out of shape because they view this is worshiping a whale that brings good luck. Really? With the degree of nonsense involved around the Cult of the Jewish zombie? That’s a great example of the pot calling the kettle black.
This site may draw a lot of sincerely delusional people that want the ‘free virtual plastic sheriff badge’ offered by this site. They come to this store and then stick around after getting their badge. The store doesn’t mind, as maybe they’ll buy paper copies of their badge and some religious looking clothing. Coming to this site for the sheriff badge does NOT mean that religious belief. In fact, it’s more indicative of individuals trying to feel more special by being able to flash their badge and say “I’m a minister.”
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Rev. Elizabeth
I’m happy you listen to God. That’s wonderful 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼🤗
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Born for (something)? That’s a hard pill to swallow.
How about ‘Sociological conditions exist that promote the growth and expression of a person’s genetic strengths.’
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Robert James Ruhnke
I did it to marry my friends, and be there to council them if there’s a divorce brewing. To show them that even in divorce, grace is possible. It was something to do, and I did it.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Religion is one of the best scams where pastors exercise sexual control over children and women and can get them to do anything in the name of God.
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Rev. Elizabeth
That doesn’t happen to all Priests and Pastors. I always hear about priests and I know of two men who were sexually harassed when they were helping the priest as he asked. Altar boys were more so to get hurt. One was a friend and the ontjer is my husband. It hurts.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Rev. Elizabeth Sad to hear you know of two victims. I hope they have the strength share their stores with others so they don't get mixed-up with the church and become victims. There are over 250,000 stores on Facebook from other victims helping other to loose their religion and not become the next victim of a sexual attack from a pastor, priest or bishop. Same is happening on YouTube and TikTok.
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Rev. Elizabeth
Yes, it is wide spread. I was a victim from my stepfather for 8yrs. I understand these young men and when I learned of the two I worked hard with them. One was my husband. We get each other. I was more clear in my head than him. I had my work cut out for me with him. The other man thanked me so much. He knew it wasn’t his fault and there is nothing wrong with him as a child or a man. It was the priest who was mentally ill and hurting so many. Then the church silences and hides the priest. It’s been a long road for both but they are doing wonderful today.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
You are brave for sharing your story. It’s said that some ULC posters call me a troll bring up this topic. From what I have seen they are all “Christians” and fail when it comes following the teaching of Jesus and the Bible in the way they treat me. So much for Christian’s loving thy neighbor.
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NLilly
Smiling. I Like This Topic! XO And I have enjoyed reading the Postings of the other three so far. :)
Without revealing too much, I'd say Both! ♥ And just for the Record, I was Born & Raised In The Faith Of My LORD & SAVIOR CHRIST JESUS! 100% & Called! & Anointed & Appointed! In YHWH-JEHOVAH ALMIGHTY!♥ AMEN YAHUSHA-JESUS! ♥ ♥ ♥ GOD Bless Always. ♥ XO ♥
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Rev. Howard Slayton
I believe I was called to preach at age 7. That’s when I first noticed it. So I’ve been looking at the Bible since I was a kid. Many people didn’t encourage me. In fact, some laughed, some ridiculed, and most doubted. When I finished high school, I decided I would study for the ministry. Then one Saturday night, I was reading the National Enquirer, and there was an advertisement in the listings in the back, offering ordination. When my papers came in the mail, my Dad was kidding around with me and told me that I should have become a lawyer in order to get people divorced, not married. It was funny. In reality, I believe I was born a minister. I’m pretty sure that when I turned 7 - that’s when God told me about my call.
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Lionheart
Did you ever grow out of it, Howard? I think I was 7 when I came to realize that Santa Clause wasn’t real. Logic, Reason, and Critical Thought can be so cruel at times. I guess it’s all part of growing up. 🤷🏼
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Rev. Howard Slayton
I believe in God. I still believe he gave me a calling to be a minister. We pass through this life but once. We must do our best to accomplish the most good. And I do believe in Saint Nicholas as long as we’re on the subject!
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Lionheart
That’s totally okay that you believe in a deity of some sort, Howard, you’re not on your own. There are even people today that believe in fairies, and even a flat earth, and that’s ok too, if that’s what people need, to get through life, as long as they don’t do harm to others because of their belief structure. Thank you for your reply.
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Rev. Howard Slayton
St John 15:16, I have called you and ordained you.
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Lionheart
I wonder who wrote that? 🤔
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Nicholas J Page
I was brought up as a Christian and said prayers at school sung hymns etc.But when I was in a dark place with mental health issues and alcoholism and been arrested and placed on suicide watch as I have attempted many times to end it all.I was talking to a church volunteer when homeless and he said God is not ready for you.I thought this through and decided to turn my life around.Get ordained and help others in the same situation and I believe strongly I am helping God's work and helping others.
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Rev. Howard Slayton
See, that’s a great reason to become a minister, so you can reach out and help others. That’s also why I became a minister.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
It's refreshing to see all of the nice people ministering to Christians and Mormons in social media exposing religion as a scam and a fraud. They are doing an excellent job. The highly devote Christian family on our block had 8 kids who were all highly religious. Out of the 8, 7 are not religious or despise their religious schooling and upbringing and one, the youngest is only going to church a couple of times a year. Unbelievable that out of 8 highly religious children only one is just slightly religious today. Says it all.
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Rev. Elizabeth
I was 6 years old and after church, walking to the car, I told my Mother that I have to work for God. She asked me what do I mean. I said I have to be a priest. She said I could not. Why I ask and she said you have to be a man. What am I going to do Mommy? I have to work for God. He wants me to work for him. She said I could become a Nun. I said I can’t be a Nun’s because they don’t work for God, they work for the Priests. She had no answer for me. I’m 12, I’m at the top of my confirmation class. A step closer to work for God. But, the Bishop says there are too many Parishes so we have to cut back. The church I attend was one that he was not coming to. I’m so upset. They tell us next year but we have to repeat the class. I yell out no! I’m at the top of this class. I’m supposed to have a meeting with the Bishop. She said you have no choice. Yes I do. I’m done. Apparently God doesn’t want me to be confirmed. Years later, we moved to a town that I cannot find a Catholic Church. My kids are getting big and they need church. I’m so upset. I feel something amiss in my life. My husband comes home with a pamphlet. He said this isn’t a Catholic Church but it is a church. It is a Methodist Church. I call the pastor. I explain over the phone I miss going to church and my children need to go. But I cannot go to your church. He asks why. I have been taught that we cannot go into any other church but my own. But my children can go. He said please come to the church this Sunday. We will have a talk before service. He tells me all about the church. He says I am not committing a sin by being in his church. God doesn’t do that. I was shaking in fear of God being angry with me. I need to work for him. I attend the service and I felt like I was home. I attend the confirmation classes there and I become a confirmed Methodist. I’m so happy. I get myself immersed in the church. Doing everything. My Pastor says to me one day, you didn’t get confirmed in the Catholic Church because you couldn’t work for him the way you do now. A few years go by and so much going on in my life, it was time to become a Minister. I went online to search for a school and I find one and then this page pops up for me becoming a minister. I ask questions and I’m told it is legit. I get the proper papers and I began my life working for God. When God wants you to work for Him, He will make it happen. That’s how I became a minister. I’m supposed to be.
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Rev. Howard Slayton
Congratulations on becoming a minister.
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Rev. Elizabeth
Thank you Rev. Howard
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Rev. Elizabeth
Thank you. So kind.
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Wilberta M. Berry
My great aunt taught me to read at the age of 2 from a Bible she owned that had 64 more books in it than the standard KJV. So in my personal case I would have to say both. Nurture from my great aunt and Nature because it started my quest to learn everything I could about all religions. I have studied everything because it doesn't bore me and I am 71 now and still learning.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@ Wilberta M. Berry Having spent 69 years learning about all of the religions in the world have you found=d one that is not a scam?
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Wilberta M. Berry
The Anthropomorphizing of GODs is the scam. There are good commonsensical allegorical information in most religions however as I am sure you know religion is man made. There is excellent allegorical advice in Aesops Fables too.
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Daniel Gray
Nobody is "born" anything except male or female. What happens after is up to YOUR choosing.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Daniel Gray Where did you learn nobody is born anything except male or female? How wrong you are. Every person begins life as a female without exception. And we know there are some people who are born as males and females, while others are born as neither. Try learning about the subject and you find there's a spectrum between being male and female. It's defiantly not one or the other. We also know that 1 out of every 175 of us being born results in someone being not male or female but in the spectrum between being male and female.
I would like to know what characteristics make someone male or female.
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Daniel Gray
Its called SCIENCE. Its called MEDICAL DOCUMENTATION. I mean get real even if you are born with both sets of plumbing, ONE of them is going to be more dominant then the other meaning you were born either male or female.
And all you need do is look at the genome which they do when they take blood from the child. If you have XY Genomes/DNA, you are a male. If you have XX genome/DNA then you are a female. period end of story. Now if you want to try and refute that, then please do...I will go get the popcorn and the adult drinks
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Daniel Gray Oh Daniel you are so wrong. Stop smoking that popcorn and lay off the adult beverages you can't handle. Let's hope your not so far gone you can learn about what God has created.
We currently know of 27 variation of the sex chromosomes not just two as you say. Do a bit of reach before posting false and misleading information.
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Daniel Gray
maybe you should take your own advice as after doing a Nexus-Lexus search I have found absolutely nothing that backs up your claim of 27 different variations of the sex DNA. DNA is the one that you go by and then its genomes and then your chromosomes. And to this day there is and has been no such variation of the genomes or the DNA and that is 2/3rds of what makes you you.
So maybe you need to do some homework and educate yourself and stop smoking your popcorn as you claim.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Daniel Gray Instead of using Nexus-Lexus which is for legal research to see if there are 27 different biological sex variations try doing a biological search on human genetics and human development.
Using Nexus-Lexus for this type of research is just stupid.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry but no. Nexus-Lexus is a SEARCH ENGINE like Google and Duck Duck go its not just for legal issues. heck they use it in the local high schools here in Toledo and maumee and sandusky and Sylvania and Columbus and Akron and a host of other schools all over the state of Ohio.
So ANYONE who does not avail themselves of ALL avenues of information are the ones that are just stupid. Or are you just admitting that you cant use a search engine.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Daniel Gray Try learning about God's creations.
There are almost 150 million people worldwide born intersex both male and female or in the past were called hermaphrodites. That's as many as the population of Russia. Every human begins life in the womb a female even if they have male chromosomes By default the fetus will continue to develop as female unless there is testosterone. If the levels are high enough the female genitalia will change into male genitalia. If the level of testosterone is low or fluctuates during development the sex is somewhere between being female and male
Give a listen to these talks given by God's children. https://www.ted.com/talks/susannah_temko_what_it_means_to_be_intersex
https://www.ted.com/talks/emily_quinn_the_way_we_think_about_biological_sex_is_wrong
https://www.ted.com/talks/karissa_sanbonmatsu_the_biology_of_gender_from_dna_to_the_brain
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Daniel Gray
And yet again you refuse to accept fact. So what if you were born with the two different sets of plumbing on the outside. Its what is inside that counts. Makes no difference if you have a penis or not along with a vagina, if you have a working womb, then you are female. End of story If you have a working set of testes, then you are male end of story. At no time in medical history has a person been born with both working sets, its humanly and scientifically impossible.
And STOP using TED. All that is, is a group of people giving their OPINION and not basing anything on scientific or medical fact.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Daniel Gray Let me get this straight people giving first hand accounts of their medical conditions is not scientific? What school taught you that lie?
When you say at no time in medical history, not sure what you mean by medical history, has a been born with both working sets when it is humanly possible and has happened. Why do you say it's scientifically impossible when it has happened and has been documented centuries ago.
I suppose you'll tell me it's scientifically impossible for a women to have two vaginas and two uteruses. Or that females as young as 5 years old have become pregnant and delivered heathy babies. Or that a fetus can not become pregnant while still in the womb.
You can say it's all scientifically impossible yet there are people alive today who are living proof you are wrong. Why don't you just admit you don't know what you are talking about and are ill-informed about the topic. As Christian do, they spread lies and refuse to learn anything about the topic which would prove they are wrong. Why do you spread such hate?
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
@Gray “ Its called SCIENCE.” 1- You?? Invoking science?? 2- ‘Its’ is actually it’s. It’s called spelling.
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Daniel Gray
and your post is what clearly shows you have no leg to stand on as only people who cat disprove what was said are the ones who complain about "science" not fitting their agenda
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
The burden of proof is on the. Individual making the claim. That concept isn’t just regarding science and also exists as the basis of our legal system. The State’s charges against a defendant must be proven. The defendant isn’t required to make any effort whatsoever to disprove the charges.
Claiming that god exists or that divine miracles take place are extraordinary claims and as such require extraordinary proof. Google ‘Russell’s Teapot’ and educate yourself.
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Daniel Gray
No sorry again you are wrong. If you want to say there isnt a deity then you also must PROVE there isnt a deity using your logic. And you have not.
I on the other hand say I BELIEVE there is a deity, its called FAITH. And my faith on believing there is a deity is just as valid as your faith that there isnt one.
So how about you educate yourself.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
I’m not stating that there is not a deity. I’m saying that I lack belief in your claim bc you, and others, have failed to provide any, much less sufficient, evidence for your claim.
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Daniel Gray
and what you seemingly dont seem to or want to understand is that is why people question what you say as they have no proof that you are right either. There are people like me who do believe in a deity even though we have no proof, and then there are people like you who dont believe in a deity because you seem to think that there is no proof that one exists. What you refuse to accept is that BOTH of these are called FAITH. And FAITH is a religious concept. Using your ideal then nobody should believe in Oxygen as you cant see it. Nobody should believe in Black/dark Matter because you cant see it. Nobody should believe in Xrays because you cant see them. There are a lot of things that exist that cant be seen with the Human eye and just because you cant see them does not mean they dont exist
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Yes, belief without proof is called faith by religious people. Lacking belief because of a lack of evidence is simply being rational.
I believe in something we call oxygen and something we call x-rays. This thing we have studied is known to undergo a myriad of reactions. We know how strong the bond is in diatomic oxygen. We have harnessed the reactions that oxygen undergoes to provide heat and power. And yet we have never seen it.
BUT we have tested out theories about this ‘thing’ and the theories have proven consistently correct. And perhaps even more importantly, if you can provide proof that these ideas are not valid then science will discard those ideas. In the case of oxygen it would likely result in your getting a Noble Peace prize.
You could tell me that you were given a book by alien visitors that says, in the book, that batteries work because little tiny aliens on treadmills create that energy and that batteries go dead when the little men work themselves to death and I would lack belief in your claim for the very same reason I lack belief in your Abrahamic god. The green men idea may seem more ‘out there’ but only because the stupidity of your concept hasn’t been brainwashed into society for 200 years.
Give me proof, I’ll believe. I spent 4 years doing the Jesus hokey pokey. Slowly got pulled into that crap bc my college girlfriend became a born again Christian. Finally just decided to break things off bc I couldn’t live my life around such delusional thinking.
I don’t believe your claims not only because your claims lack any proof whatsoever, but also because your claims contradict various aspects of scientific knowledge.
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Daniel Gray
belief without proof is not like proof without belief.
As I said using your logic then there should not be anything like Oxygen or dark matter or quarks or xrays as you have no proof they exist. You cant feel them and you cant see them, so how can you prove they exist?
You are fighting a losing battle as there is no way you can win this
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Of course therevis no way to win this. I’m presenting information to a religiously delusional person.
However, this should be clear to even one with limited ability to listen. ‘Seeing’ is not the only type of evidence.
As for oxygen, we know something exists that we call oxygen. We can make it. We can predict what will happen under certain circumstances. These results are verifiable by others. Predictive and repeatable. With religion the most I can predict is that there is an inverse relationship between the likelihood of a person having religious beliefs and the level of education they obtaining.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
And Gray, the next time you get pulled for DUI and you blow well over the limit, try telling the officer “But you can’t SEE the alcohol!” Or when you get pulled for speeding saying “You can see my car but you can’t see my speed”.
Or better yet, when the doctor tells you that you have a brain tumor, refuse treatment. Please, please refuse treatment.
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Rev. Elizabeth
What made you the authority on how people are born? We are born a determined sex but we are also born with innate attributes that 1, from our creator and whatever we received from our parents. 2, from our lYou aren’t born male or female and that’s that. We have certain abilities that is nature. The nurture part is where our family is in life and when there they honor your innate abilities and needs, or because they were around this a lot. Doesn’t matter. We are born with innate abilities and Gid talks to many but many don’t realize it because no one has taken the time to be silent and hear His voice.
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Daniel Gray
Ok then show me where a woman has delivered anything other then a human child. Thats science and medical validation on how you were born. Show me where in a scan for the child that when a doctor says you are going to be a boy, that suddenly you are now a girl? That again is science and medicine. You can try and spin this anyway you wish, but the facts still remain that a simple blood test will tell you if you are going to be a boy or a girl and you cant change that so one wonders why you are trying.
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Lionheart
“…show me where a woman has delivered anything other than a human child”
Well, there’s Joe and Hunter Biden’s mom for one 🤭
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Lionheart
During my days as an amateur archaeologist, the only inhumation’s I ever excavated were determined to be either male or female, judging from their skeletal structure.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Lionheart Where did you do your dig? Did you take a class in comparative skeletal human anatomy? I hope you were taught while there are differences between male and female skeletons one can never be 100% certain.
What makes a person male, female, neither or both?
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Lionheart
I was a member of the Derbyshire Archaeological Research Group in England during the late 70’s, early 80’s. All finds went to Nottingham University for further analysis.
Quite often, the sex of skeletal remains could be determined just by the skull’s eyebrow ridge. Males have quite a prominent ridge to the outside of the ridge. Feel your own eyebrow ridge, and compare it to your wife’s. You should find that your wife’s is totally smooth and hardly protrudes at all. The pelvis is also a good give away as to the sex of most inhumations.
Thank for your interest, Douglas.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Lionheart Were you involved with any of the digs? I agree with that the sex of skeletal remains CAN be, determined by skeletal remains, but not always.
As we have observed over the past 200 years sex not binary, male or female but a spectrum. Have you ever examined the skeleton of someone who is intersex/hermaphrodite? If we look at the sex chromosomes we know there are 27 variations. Some of these sex variations can be seen in skeletal remains.This is all stuff that Christians hate to hear, yet these are people their God created and they cannot or will not accept them. In the past Christians would deaminize these people.... What am I saying, they still are.
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Lionheart
I am of course, Douglas, referring to the "physical" biological skeletal structure of human beings as opposed to gender identification. The physical anatomical structure of skeletons for those who were born capable of giving birth is different to those who are not capable of being able to give birth. Further chemical/genetic analysis, post exhumation, also supports that science.
I ought to point out there are other anatomical skeletal differences, other than the two I mentioned above. A good friend of mine who was an archaeo-osteologist was brilliant at being able to biologically sex skeletal remains prior to further post excavation analysis.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Lionheart This is where things get tricky. Just because the skeletal structure is for birth, doesn't mean the person is capable of getting pregnant and giving birth.
Genetic analysis over the past 200 or so years has revealed there are 27 different sex chromosomal patterns. Some of these have skeletal markers. This was well studied in England when it was thought super males XY YY is what made someone a criminal. As we found out, it is not true.
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Lionheart
I agree, I'm sure there were many that had the skeletal structure built to give birth, and possibly never did. I'm sure that hermaphrodites existed back then and possibly were seen to be of the Devil, by Christians. Christians have some very weird ideas.
Interestingly, some of the digs I've participated in did unearth some anomalies. One where its head had been removed and placed between its legs at knee level. The complete skeleton was buried facing downwards and not upwards at the sky. Presumably he had been a very naught boy and had been executed and was placed facing downwards to hell, the place they hoped he was going. 🤭 This is not uncommon with those who had been executed during the early Christian era. The brutality of some Christians have a lot to answer for. I don't know where they get their morals from. 😇
Another was buried with two sets of feet 🦶🏻🦶🏻. The spare set was buried with him/her. 🤷🏼
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Lionheart
As to the question raised in this topic: "Were You Born a Minister or Did You Become One?" I would say that everyone was actually born atheist, not knowing about anything of the worlds mythical gods.
The god that most people believe in, or not, is primarily dependent upon the geographical location of ones family, or dependent upon the indoctrination of the parents as one grows up. When a child reaches the age of being able to apply logic and reason, along with critical thought, (if the parents allow that autonomy for their child,) he/she will have the ability to decide for themselves as to whether they want to believe in any god.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
The vast majority of children are brainwashed into religion. But many as they they as they enter their early teens are recognizing religion for the fraud it is and believe in science.
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Rev. Elizabeth
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Atheism is nature, religion is nurture. Well, in the strictest meaning of the word. Brainwashing is a sort of negative nurture.
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JaZe
Does it really matter? A vocation can remain hidden for many years. The soul may one day be touched by something happening and in that moment all changes or it may happen over the years with observation and experience.
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Mina B Thompson
Bless you sweet one! You have pretty much told my story from a male version...🥰🙏 I am 72 years old, with a long, varied, blessed history. I will save your sermon to refer back to! Thank you and thank God I was let to your story as it let's me know I am absolutely the right path. Blessings, Minister Mina
I guess I was born a preacher because most of my family and friends have told me for as long as I can remember that I should be a preacher.
You were actually born not knowing anything about religion. It sounds like your family did their job of totally indoctrinating you to believe differently.
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