The world of sports was shocked to a standstill last week when NFL player Damar Hamlin went into cardiac arrest on the field during Monday Night Football. It became immediately obvious that his life was in grave danger.
In the aftermath on the frightening incident, many people’s reactions centered around prayer. “Pray for Damar” was soon trending, and players and commentators across the media landscape shared faith-related pleas for his health and recovery.
Fortunately, Hamlim has now been released from the hospital and it appears that he is on the road to recovery. With his life no longer in doubt, some have turned to reflect on the public reaction to this scary incident.
Is prayer the best way to respond to a medical emergency? Did it (in this case, anyway) make a difference? Who gets the credit for saving Hamlin's life? We asked two ULC ministers to give their takes on these questions.
A Higher Power Watched Over Damar Hamlin’s Life
A guest sermon by Maya Randolph
When Damar Hamlin collapsed on the field, a world of believers sprang into action. As a young man’s life hung in the balance, millions of people who had been relaxing and watching a football game were left sitting on their couches at home feeling frightened and helpless.
On the field, Damar’s teammates and coaches no doubt felt the same way.
At that moment, there was only one thing to do: pray. And pray we did.
From regular people on social media, to talking heads on TV, and even players on the field, believers united behind the power of prayer to give strength to Damar Hamlin, his family, and the medical personnel attending to him.
It made a difference. Damar’s heart stopped, yes, but not for good.
Franklin Graham noted the powerful moment when the Bills players gathered in a prayer circle as doctors tried to resuscitate Damar:
Fans in the stands also broke out in prayer:
On TV the next day, as Damar’s status was still very much in doubt, ESPN NFL commentator Dan Orlovsky did something remarkable. Instead of just echoing “thoughts and prayers” like so many others, he stopped the show and actually said a prayer on air during the broadcast:
When Damar awoke in the hospital, the first thing he asked was “did we win?” Doctors responded “yes, you won the game of life.”
And for any doubters out there, think about the divine intervention we saw in the game the Bills played this past weekend, less than a week after almost losing a teammate.
Damar Hamlin wears number 3, and all of his teammates had a #3 patch added to their jerseys.
Following an emotional pregame ceremony in front of their home fans, many holding #3 signs, the Bills had a kick return for a touchdown to start the game, an extremely rare and remarkable play in and of itself.
But the last time it happened? 3 years and 3 months ago. That’s more than coincidence, it’s something only a higher power could design.
In an interview describing the reverential experience, Buffalo Bills quarterback Josh Allen said simply, “God is real.”
What more is there to say?
Don’t Give God Credit That Belongs to Medical Professionals
A guest sermon by Andrew Hannigan
There are freak accidents, and then there is what happened to Damar Hamlin. When he went down on the field, doctors immediately suspected commotio cordis – a rare stoppage of the heart caused by a heavy impact to the chest (like a football hit) that occurs right at a critical period during a heartbeat.
A millisecond earlier, or later, and the hit Damar took would have been like any other NFL play. But bad luck can strike at any time.
And in the face of sudden crisis, the medical professionals on the field reacted immediately to save Damar Hamlin’s life. CPR performed on the field managed to restore his heartbeat, but as he was rushed to the hospital he was still having trouble breathing.
It took a ventilator and supplemental oxygen – marvels of modern medicine that didn’t exist for most of human history – to keep Damar alive. Highly trained doctors monitored him closely to ensure no other complications emerged. And we can all breathe a sigh of relief, as it appears he is going to be okay.
However, to attribute any of these events to God, as many have tried to do, is the height of silliness.
There was a specific medical reason that Damar Hamlin’s heart stopped; it was a freak accident that couldn’t have occurred without perfectly bad timing.
Are we to believe that God, in his infinite wisdom, just let this suffering happen… only to step in and listen to prayers after the fact? What kind of twisted benevolence is that?
There were also specific medical treatments (CPR, among other things), that saved Damar’s life. At the helm were medical professionals that had undergone years and years of training to ready themselves for that moment, to know just how to react.
As the Freedom From Religion Foundation points out, for a dangerous sport that relies so deeply on medical science, the NFL has a curious affinity for evangelism:
One can understand how a helpless bystander’s first instinct in the face of tragedy is to pray. And if that’s your thing, cool. It certainly can’t hurt.
However, to look past the contributions of doctors and nurses to the positive outcome of this story, and give the credit instead to God is not only unfair, it’s downright offensive.
So say your prayers, sure, but don’t attribute to God a miracle that belongs to modern medicine.
What is your reaction?
82 comments
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Douglas Robert Spindler
We must remember it was God who stopped Damar's heart, killing him. Damar and his team mates should be thanking all of the trained medical professionals with their years of medical experience scientific research for bring Damar back for the dead. Had they not been there moments after God stopped his heart we would be watching Damar's funeral.
Sad people give God the credit when it was science and well trained medical professionals who save people's lives.
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Ronaldo
The only way one could say God stopped the heart is by saying it was a design flaw in His Creation. God does not sit up there and control every little thing going on. Scripture makes no mention of a required continuous control by Him. He watches everything, but only steps in when necessary, and when He does take action, it is usually through people. God may well have been listening to the prayers and giving suggestions to the medical professionals. God may have answered prayers and guided one or more of these medical experts into the field years before.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Ronaldo We know God created a lot of design flaws with humans. I can give you many examples. Take the human reproductive system. I hope you agree it was pretty dumb to integrate it with our sewer. Or look at your heart and lungs. As you were developing you had gill slits in your throat and associated blood vessels. And as you developed the slits were filled but the renominates of the blood vessels still remain. Why did God give us gill slits if we were not going to become a fish? Design flaw. And why do. We use the same opening for breathing and intake of food? What a design flaw. Inhale while you are eating and you choke to Do some research on humans development and you will find many other design flaws.
I was taught God was all powerful and God was all knowing. And that God knows everything.
I assure you none of those medical professionals were praying, they were too busy trying to save his life. They did have a moment to waste on prayers.
What did God cause Damar’s heat to stop in the first place? If God know Damar would recover, seems pretty stupid to cause so much pain and suffering. Doesn’t sound like a loving God to me.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
There is something extremely sad and off putting to think of the numbers of parents praying at the bedside of their child, dying from cancer, head trauma, gun shot wound or any number of maladies that kill children every year and to think that those prays are all for naught. Yet for a football player, who collapses live on tv, with team mates and audience participation praying for him and everyone just so distraught and asking everyone to pray. And goD decides that the little child dying from cancer, the mom bleeding out during childbirth, the dad crushed and damaged in his care waiting for, literally, the jaws of life to save him, and all dying, despite the prays and pleading and promises people are asking and offering. Those people die but goDs head is turned because enough people think one football player is more valuable than all those other dying people?
Anyone who honestly believes that goD saved that football player but lets the children, the moms, the dads, lets them all die because he didn't think they were worthy of his blessings but the football player was...there are no words to describe how inhumane, cruel and sadistic that goD must be to let that all happen.
To publicly pronounce that goD saved the football player, that it was a miracle, divine intervention is just so derailed, so cognitively dissonant as to beggar belief. As Andrew Hannigan said above, it was the intervention of the doctors, a result of years, cumulatively decades of training and experience that save that man's life. All to be tossed to the winds by religious fervor convinced that a non-existent goD did all the heavy lifting. All the while ignoring the lives lost daily regardless of the people praying for their family member or friend. Despite the prayers on their behalf, their life gets snuffed out simply because goD did not find them worthy enough to warrant his attention and subsequent life-saving intervention.
Nope, the goD of morons will listen to thousand, to millions of morons murmuring meaningless words and platitudes, feeling so good about themselves as they do so, publicly so everyone can see how devouted they truly are. But letting babies die, letting cancer take its toll day after day, moms and dads dying from disease, assault, car wrecks, mass shootings...but a stadium of football fans are all it takes to save the life of one football player. And suddenly it's not about excellent medical care, which is missing or unavailable to so many people in this country either because it's not profitable to open a hospital or emergency care or unaffordable to the citizens but rather, the malignant intervention of an at best, disinterested deity who needs to be coaxed and prodded and pleaded with, publicly praised in order for him to deign to save that one person. Yeah, goD is not great.
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Joe Stutler
Short answer: No. Longer answer: Hell no.
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Pastor Jody S.
Miracles do happen, with more frequency then they are given credit for, by most of us. BUT - they are typically subtle, and happen in ways that are usually described by those unconvinced of the divine, as "coincidence".
God works miracles most often through his creation, without drama, or fanfare. The Bible stories, particularly those performed by Jesus, are atypical. Because, well, Jesus IS the Word of God, God's Son. So the miracles are instantaneous, and, well, miraculous.
The majority of miracles happen in ways that don't necessarily register on our awareness, until we have them pointed out to us, or we reflect on them afterwards.
Yes, the medical professionals and First Responders used all of their skills and abilities. But - quite often they do, and the patient still passes away. This time, the patient did not. And recovered, quite frankly, unusually, and extremely quick.
And that, there, is the miraculous. We don't SEE the miracle, until we stop and THINK about it. Reflect on it. Ruminate, as monks describe the process.
I learned from an old, and very wise, Catholic Sister that prayer has three possible outcomes. Yes, no, and not yet. And the majority of time it's "not yet". Effective prayer for a petition typically takes prayer that is fervant, and persistent. Those qualities require Faith. If you have Faith, everything is possible. And you will find God in all things. And you can move mountains.
If you do not have Faith, you will not find God anywhere. And will miss the greatest gift of all - Grace.
It's really that simple. Jesus told his disciples "Be not afraid. Only Believe".
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Rev. Dee
Post hoc ergo propter hoc
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Angele
People who have come back from near death experiences, those who have really been on the other side, say that prayer manifests.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
wishful thinking and cognitive dissonance. non c'e niente dopo morte
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Angele
Maybe not for you but please don’t be so fast to judge that which you have never been fortunate enough to experience yourself.
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Ealdormon Piparskeggr Robinson
I had several near death experiences from mid-2007 until I got a pacemaker 16 April 2008.
I arrested 13 times the night before in the cardiac care ward where they were diagnosing what was going on. First medical opinion in January that year was "Asymptomatic Syncope," aka, blacking out for no known reason.
What they found is the sinus node (the heart's natural pacemaker) does not fire off from time to time, so my heart goes slack. I came out of them without medical intervention, longest was 28 seconds according to the charge nurse who woke me to let me know a cardiac surgeon was coming to diagnose me. She also said I did not stop breathing.
The NDE's I remember were all a slow fade to black.
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Cindi
Prayer is a powerful connection between humans. Science has proven that when we even think about God, our brain fires electrical impulses. So, my thoughts on prayer is that when a group of people all pray at the same time, no matter how far apart from each other, we connect. Prayer is power, and I am living proof! I have survived 4 different cancers. Many of my family and friends prayed for me while getting treatments. Many of whom belong to different churches, who also prayed for the will of God. I now am cancer free for the past 4 years.
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Rev. Dee
You don't actually understand what the word "proof" means.
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Rev. Jim Sutton
Ummm . . . When our brains do ANY thinking, electrical impulses are fired. Doesn't matter if it's about God or Donald Trump. Don't give credit where credit isn't due.
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Lionheart
The efficacy of prayer has been studied for decades, and has been proved to be just as non-effective as crossing one’s fingers, or touching wood.
🦁❤️
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Rev. Jean-Anasthase
Isn't it the same for homeopathic ?
Blessing Rev. Jean-Anasthase.
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John D. Partin
This is for other people again, not uselessly for you, since you have closed your mind to any and all evidence of the efficacy of prayer and the existence of God, and the mind of a bigot, such as yourself, is like the pupil of an eye: the more light that you shine on it, the smaller it gets. Crossing fingers or touching wood have never made people recover from any health problem or disease, as prayers have, but look it up for yourself, since I won't waste my time doing that for somebody like you.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Ineffective drivel.
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
As a Secular Humanist Pantheist, all my prayers are answered.
And, all of my ULC brethren can achieve the same rate of success (having their prayers answered) by only praying that our Earth will turn toward the Sun tomorrow, the next day, and forever — as long as one wants to pray for the same thing.
Prayers are akin to the opium of the masses — it gives the rabble (AKA, MEGA-deplorables) the notion that they can tell their Christian God what to do — that they know, better than their Christian God, what should take place in the future.
Prayers are nothing less than a last Hope before one confronts something they consider a lapse in their Christian Gods scheme of things.
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Colleen McAllister
I feel sorry for those who ignore the connection between faith and science. Which is harder to believe- that things "just happen" or that out there somewhere is a divine presence that oversees and directs all?
How can you see the intricacies of the universe and see randomness? How can you not see the commonality between the structure of a galaxy and the structure of an atom?
Far from being a dismissal of medical science this elevates those who practice medicine to a higher level of those who pay attention to God and His designs.
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Stacey Owens
What's wrong with believing or having faith in Christ? That has nothing to do with random? Christ just is. There's no science in having faith. A football team doesn't apply science in winning a game. Believing that the substance of truth confirms in them winning as a team. No matter what plays they run. There faith supports the plays. In other words, they walk/play in their belief.
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Rev. Dee
🤣 A football team VERY MUCH applies science in winning a game.
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Rev. Dee
Your not being able to understand how people can see the universe without invoking gods, does nothing to advance your reason for believing in one.
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Minister Carlos Ricardo Walls
Yes.I'm a firm and staunch believer in prayer.In our world as it is today prayer brings about miracles.
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Rev. Dee
No one doubts your belief in it, just in its effectiveness.
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P. Keith Benefiel
A miracle is simply something of low probability that happens. The opposite is a freak accident. Prayer makes naive folks feel better about it.
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Nicholas J Page
Why not I suffered head aches after a brain op for 4 and a half years everyday which pain killers did not work.I went to a church group where my friends put their hands on my arms The organiser put his hand on my shoulder and said a prayer for me and next day the pain had gone.So yes I believe in the power of prayer
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Donald Richard Starns
"I'll pray for you" = "I want some credit for caring, without actually having to do anything that takes any effort or that actually works." (The prophet R. Gervais)
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Rev Ned
Anytime tragedy strikes, politicians (mainly Republican'ts) ask for “thoughts and prayers” to help with the situation. So, whenever I receive a begging letter from a pol, I cross off the dollar amount requested and write “thoughts and prayers” on it and mail all the stuff back to them in the return envelope provided.
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Lisa Rose Morton
I don't believe in God .Yet I truly believe that prayer or positive thoughts sent for a person do help especially with healing. It doesn't matter if the person is praying to a religious God or to Nature or sending thought waves. The even remote practicing does help. I have received the benefits of it myself..
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rebadams7
I prayed for healing And thine will be done I prayed for the medical team And thy will be done I prayed for his family and his teammates And thy will be done I have always believed there were only three answers to prayers, yes, not yet, and I have something else in mind for you. If you have faith, you know the Lord will do what the Lord believes his best in any situation and yes, there are tragedies and yes, blind faith in prayer alone, to deny his miraculous gifts in the amazing medicine and surgeries we have at our fingertips. Today would also be a denial of what up, but I believe to be God’s power in the world by giving us those gifts and the practitioners who use them so well in the end, prayer gives comfort and gives us all something to do when there is nothing at all we can immediately do. Perhaps some of those prayers also urged people to go into action, to learn CPR and also to support his good work through his foundation, I also believe in all things work together for the glory of God, we may not be able to see it right away, but sometimes in the end, the truth comes out.
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Angele
Yes,rebadams7 agree totally. Thank You!
Copied and pasted from Wikipedia… The parable of the drowning man, also known as Two Boats and a Helicopter, is a short story, often told as a joke, most often about a devoutly Christian man, frequently a minister, who refuses several rescue attempts in the face of approaching floodwaters, each time telling the would-be rescuers that God will save him. After turning down the last, he drowns in the flood. After his death, the man meets God and asks why he did not intervene. God responds that he sent all the would-be rescuers to the man's aid on the expectation he would accept the help.
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Michael Hall
I'm on Rev. Hannigan's side. He put it a lot more gently than I would have. What would have been the response of the nation if Mr. Hamlin had died? What was your response when your prayers failed to keep your grandmother alive after her fall? Either 1) "God has called [him or her] home", or 2) "We mortals cannot understand the will of God". However, the null hypothesis, that there isn't a god or gods to pray to or to care if we do, hasn't yet been disproven.
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Stacey Owens
I has been proven, only to believer. God is a spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
The abrogation of science, of education, of common sense is rife throughout the world as a result of religion. All one has to do is recognize that one needn't go to school, any school, to believe in fantasy. It requires no education, no study, no effort at all; simply announce to world, demand their respect and expect everyone to admire and copy you in your religious fervor
Why does your goD, who is supposed to be all powerful resort to the most basic of desires, that of being worshiped? Why would your goD of the universe, who controls all, who knows all, who created all...stoop to having to be worshiped by his puny little creations. It makes no sense. It's so stunningly childish and stupefyingly ignorant to actually believe that your might goD needs to be paid attention to, needs to be worshiped, needs to be idolized, needs to be the center of attention at all times by all peoples.
Deny science, deny logic, demand that your illogical, irrational and dangerously stupid belief is all you or anyone else needs. Your goD is there looking out for you, until he/she/it isn't. And when that happens you give your goD a pass, you claim to suddenly not understand the mind of your goD - whereas before you seemed to know it perfectly - that he/she/it is a mystery and that they have their own reasons. In other words your goD saves when they feel like it and ignores all as their mood dictates. I
f your goD can be so unpredictable, so random and so indifferent to his creations then one must conclude that people were created as a form of entertainment by your goD for your goD's amusement and all the hoop jumping, all the kneeling and abasement, all the huge churches and monies raised, the thumping, the shouting, the wars...all in their/she/it/he's name, all encouraged by your goD simple because it amuses him/it/her/they/them. your goD let's people die, horribly through cancer, war, starvation, disease, torture...all because it amuses him. And yet, like that whipped dog that keeps coming back to it's master, tail between its legs, all it wants to do is lick the hand the beats it.
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Angele
My God does not need to be worshipped because my God isn’t the God of man’s religion. My God isn’t out there looking out for us because my God isn’t separate from us. People created the God you speak of. People who have been on the other side experience a different God with a love which is inconceivable here.
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John P Maher
EVERYTHING is POSSIBLE, BUT NOTHING is 100% EVER !
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@John P Maher Not true, John P Maher. If everything is possible can you dig a hole using a shovel with rope for a handle? Can you make yourself younger? Know anyone who hasn't died who is over 150 years old? Can you jump high enough to reach the moon?
You see there are just somethings which are not possible.
It's 100% certain the sun will rise tomorrow for the next million years. It's 100% certain you will die as will or did your parents and grandparents. It's 100% you will die if you don't eat food or drink water.
And there are things which we are 100%... ALWAYS.
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Kathleen Dobie
The answer to the prayer is found in the coming together of people showing goodness and kindness and love to Damar Hamlin. It is the very best of humanity on display for all the world to see. I'm so happy that Damar is recovering, but I wonder had things gone the other way and he had not survived would people then say all the prayers were useless, and that God did not answer or hear them? As wonderful as his survival story is, the bigger story here, and the true miracle in all of it, is in seeing how people responded and that at the core, people are good. God must be smiling. That's good enough for me!
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Rev. Jean-Anasthase
The question is "is prayer the BEST medicine".
I'll answer this: "is Homeopathic a medicine" ? What about placebo medicines ? And what about "energizing water with a spin drawn on the bottle" ???
Prayer is certainly the best medicine for the soul, and that's good. But lying about false medicine that normally should heal the body is incomprehensible to me...
Blessing Rev Jean-Anasthase
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Rev. Jean-Anasthase Sadly you are wrong. I have seen prayer KILL more people than it has saved. I worked in pre-hospital emergency care and watched as parents of young children but their faith in God prayed for a cure as their child died in their arms. Had they trusted modern medicine cures and science their child would made a full recovery and be alive today.
We are seeing this right now with COVID. People who are placing their trust in modern medicine and getting vaccinated are far less likely to get sick and die from COVID than the people who put their trust in God and prayers.
I have yet to meet one Christian who was having a heart attack who trusted in prayers to save their life. They always give up on prayers and want modern medical care from trained professionals.
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Rev. Jean-Anasthase
You did not read my comment, did you ?
OK then. You "trust". That's the point. Trust is a belief. Not a science. And medicine is all but a science. Medicine is an art.
Why did you replied ? please remind me.
Blessings, Rev. Jean-Anasthase
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Rev. Jean-Anasthase I read your comment. I agree with you trust is based on belief.
Depends what type of medicine you are referring to. I should have stated I was referring to modern medicine and not faith healing or non-science based or unproven/fringe medicine.
Modern medicine is a practice that's based on science, scientific research, scientific method and studies. The doctor ultimately makes a decision on how to best treat the patient. I have never been called an artist and I don't know of any other medical other medical professional referred to as an artist. But I do get your point. There is an art to practicing medicine, but if one is truly practicing the art it's based on science and critical thinking skills.
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Rev. Jean-Anasthase
So you don't believe in a too much humanized god whom talk to people through other people not doing injury at all... But you trust labs, false scientist and scam trials... industry that make thousands of injury and billions of dollars of thievery... They are good, for sure.
OK, That's great. Continue to trust them.
Did you one day hear about "First do no harm" ?
Blessing, Rev. Jean-Anasthase
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Rev. Jean-Anasthase As a heath care professional who has treated thousands of patients I do not believe in lying to my patients or families in telling them praying to a mythical God will cure there loved one. Does telling loved ones prayer will or might help? Absolutely. If prayer and modern medicine cures their loved one prayer gets all of the credit. They then tell others the power of prayer cured their loved one, and that they should but their trust in God and prayers instead of modern medicine. I can't tell you how many times I have seen a young mother holding a dying infant which could have been easily cured with modern medicine just a day or two before. The mother being told to believe in the power of God and prayers will cure their baby give it a try as perosseous time passes and their baby gets sicker. The reason they come to me for modern medical care is because God and prayers isn't working. And sadly the delay seeking modern medical care is what results in their baby's death. Every had to tell the mother that the baby they are holding in their arms going to die? When you know they caused their child's death?
Do I trust all labs and all labs results? No. But if it's a reputable lab which has proven to be trustworthy I will give the results a lot of credibility. I should also say I have worked in a lab and tend to trust my results. But there's always the possibility I might make a mistake and my results should not be tested.
False medicine and scam trails is why we have modern medicine to expose false medicine as being false and scams as being scams.
Rev. Jean-Anasthase if you or a loved one were having a heart attack would you want doctors to pray to God to be saved? Or would you put your faith in modern medicine. well trained doctors and the lab results they rely on to save your life? I have yet to have just one patient ask me to save them with prayers.
"First do no harm" is something you practice? I certainly hope so. If someone is sick and dying seeing modern medical care should be the first thing that should be done. If you are saying prayers first, you are causing harm. (I hope you stop it.)
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Rev. Jean-Anasthase
OK. You DO NOT read what I wrote. This is obviously because you have the same activist veil you reproach to believer as you believe in a god named "medicine", and I would not feel secure to be close to you as I am a "Big Satan" to tell another speech than you.
If once you truly read what I wrote, you will see I DO NOT SPEAK about biological health...
But That's certainly the "open mind" the medicine school give to students. Maybe (and I say maybe) you've never kill someone with your medicine, but it makes no doubt that will append. I hope for your mental health that it will be a stranger and not one of your beloved.
Tell me : why do you argue in a house of Satan's of F***G believers like this forum. Do you mind converting any ? Are you appointed by someone to troll ?
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Rev. Jean-Anasthase
The question of this article WAS "is prayer the BEST medicine". The title changed to "does prayer save lives". This is no more a good answer...
Blessings Rev. Jean-Anasthase
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Rev. Jean-Anasthase Hard to answer the question when the questions keeps changing.
To answer the questions one has to understand what is meant by "best medicine". Best for who?
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Rev. Jean-Anasthase
Not for labs I guess...
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Merlin
We all are tools of the Divine. Good or Bad depends on the practitioner.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Terry W.Waddell Maybe you are a tool for the divine, but can't tell if you are good or bad. I'm not. And I think you'll find most young people would laugh at that statement which is why they don't want be Christians... Which I guess is a good if you look at what Christians are doing to our country.
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Guy E. Sanders Jr
I have been an EMS professional for a quarter of a century in the New York City area. In addition to the hundreds of calls I've responded to daily, I also responded to the terror attacks of 9/11 at the World Trade Center and to the rescue and recovery efforts in New Orleans following Hurricane Katrina.
I must say that faith can be helpful when dealing with illness and difficulty. Confidence is an aid in recovery. But there have been many times when it seems to me that it is medical intervention, not prayer, that helps and it is the medical professionals doing their jobs who deserve the credit. A case in point, I once responded to a call of an unconscious child. Apparently she had choked on food at a family gathering, went unconscious and stopped breathing. Upon my arrival there were no fewer than 15 people standing around, some of whom were praying audibly. This little girl had no pulse. We did all we could, including getting a police escort to the hospital but the child expired. CPR before we arrived would have helped her much more than our prayers.
I know of many 9/11 first responders, myself included, who contracted cancer and other serious illnesses for our response to that horrific event. I know that prayers went up as soon as many heard about the tragedy. Yet, I lost colleagues that day, including a 24-year-old single mother, a 25-year-old father of two who had just gotten off work but returned to assist and who died wit a child in his arms and many more years later from those cancers. Prayer did not help those who sacrificed themselves on that day and it is medical intervention that is continuing to keep many of us alive.
I do not discount the power of faith, but even the apostle James said, "Faith without works is dead." People continue to pray for cures to cancer and other chronic diseases but it is the hard work of many in the medical profession that helps these individuals and brings about breakthroughs. If it was through prayer alone, I am sure that with all the prayers that we put forth for our loved ones, these things would have been eradicated fully by now.
Let's not diminish the contributions and dedicated work performed by our medical professionals on every level by ascribing everything they do to "the power of prayer".
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Guy E. Sanders Jr I too worked in pre-hospital emergency care. I have seem parents holding their dying young child in their arms while praying to God to make their child well. Those prayers have always resulted in the death of a child. Yet I am standing their begging them to treat their child with modern medicine, science and the years of training I received and would have been able to save their child's life.
Not sure about you, but have you ever had one patient who was having a heart attack request you to pray to God to save their life? Or do they always choose modern medicine, science and the expert medical training you received.
I have yet to have just one patient who requested prayers, but have thousands who always want modern medical care to save their life. Do you find the same?
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Rev. Jim Sutton
It's a shame that he was injured in such a way; however, I find that prayers are more for the people saying them than for whatever the prayers are directed at. On a slightly unrelated subject, I can't help but think that if Damar Hamlin had been White, the game would NOT have been stopped. I firmly think that once he was removed from the field, and a few moments pass for everyone to get their heads back in the game, the game would've continued. It's happened before with the near on-field deaths of other pro players --- Chris Hughes (NFL) and Chris Prongel (NHL). So what made this time any different?
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William Langen Burgoyne
I certainly believe in the power of prayer in behalf of anyone's need whether it be for healing or anything else. Consequently I believe that God definitely answered their prayers for Damar and god acted in accordance with His Word which says: "And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:11) (New International Version).
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Minister Deidre
Prayer is definitely a must, but God works through doctors and medications, too. I don't understand why this has to be an either/or situation. It was very powerful to see all of those people come together and pray to whomever they believed in on Damar's behalf, and I believe that had an immediate impact. After that, not only did people everywhere continue to pray, but doctors and their medical teams worked hard to held him in his recovery. Why can't this be a situation where faith and medical science worked hand in hand?
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Gregory B Crowder
It is just an observation that everyone "prays" in some way to one degree or another regardless of faith and/or beliefs. Although most don't realize they are.
The seed of thought I like to plant in general, but especially in debates such as this is....
Stop and think about how The Powers That Be are perceived in general. This is a vast spectrum so I leave this to you individually.
Consider this, when you pray, wish for, think of, etc. Is what follows that which you may or may not have asked for? In this case, Damar Hamlin had a heart attack. Countless people prayed, wished, thought about etc. He wound up with medical personnel that brought him back to health. Starting with the first responder on the field.
This is just an outlook and can definitely be delved into much deeper.
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Daniel Todd Kamm
All of that said, the University of Cincinnati is a top state of the art teaching hospital , one of the best in the nation. There's nothing wrong with hopes and prayers, good tidings or the rest of it. Feel free to stick a positive pin in a doll, let loose a leach, handle a snake or light a candle, whatever. But if I have a cardiac episode, as they say at UC "There's Hope in Science." And it's less than a mile away and it's UC 4 Me! Reb tk
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Ealdormon Piparskeggr Robinson
I deeply believe that the gods and goddesses to whom I give worship are real. I also believe that they have bigger concerns than the health of any individual being, animal, plant, fungus or other.
As I have told folks since I survived pancreatic cancer (active disease, treatment and healing over the course of much of 2015): While prayer can be a salve for your soul, Medicine IS the balm for your body.
A lot of folks prayed for me, which buoyed my spirits. BUT, it was the knowledge, skill and expertise of the doctors, nurses and other medical personnel who effected the cure.
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Angele
The parable of the drowning man, also known as Two Boats and a Helicopter, is a short story, often told as a joke, most often about a devoutly Christian man, frequently a minister, who refuses several rescue attempts in the face of approaching floodwaters, each time telling the would-be rescuers that God will save him. After turning down the last, he drowns in the flood. After his death, the man meets God and asks why he did not intervene. God responds that he sent all the would-be rescuers to the man's aid on the expectation he would accept the help.
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Barbara J Crable
Praying contributes to healing. Immediate CPR contributes to healing. So, the answer is yes. This has been proven time and again. CPR training saves lives; as a Registered Nurse I have seen this multiple times. As a born again Christian I have seen this happen multiple times. I am five years free of cancer because of the surgical team at City of Hope and the prayers from my family and friends across the country. It’s not any different.
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Lionheart
No it hasn't, Barbara. There is little, to no, evidence that anything is attributed to prayer. The efficacy of prayer has been shown, by numerous studies since 1872, to be ineffective. You are more than likely to be free of cancer due to the science and care given my medical professionals. There is no way of knowing if prayer works, by any religion, even yours. You can have thoughts of believing it does work, but that doesn't mean to say it does.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficacy_of_prayer
Congratulations on your healing, and please give credit to science...and yourself.🤗
🦁♥️
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Christy Wilkinson
One thing I have observed: Prayer never harmed people, except to the extent it was is if no intervention took place, as many have stated as a detriment to this benign effort. Another thing I have observed: Direct harm from science based medical interventions resulting in permanent injury & death or, at the very least: further treatments/revision surgeries. I am somewhat educated, but I am not here to brag of such things. Based on my conclusions drawn upon 3 decades of study, I put my faith in the Sacred Divine, more than any works of man.
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Stephen Mohlaloga Makgoathane
Let me tell you this:: One patient was taken to the theater for operation,he asked the Doctor if he could Pray before these Doctors begin, the Doctor said to the patient,we Doctors,determine your life and not GOD. The Doctor then said to the patient, your chance to live is zero percentage. Patient was allowed to pray,he prayed for ten minutes.The following day the same Doctor came to his ward and said to the patient " Your GOD is great, my GOD disappointed me too many times. This tells us that GOD AND PRAYERS ARE GREATER THAN THE DOCTORS OF THE WORLD. A Doctor needs PRAYERS, And all Doctors need GOD and PRAYERS. That's me. REV" Stephen Mohlaloga Makgoathane South Africa
Does prayer help? It might help how a religiously delusional individual feels about a situation but nothing other than that. Studies shown that praying provides the same results as sitting in a closet and thinking about cats.
You pray for me. I’ll think for both of us.
Ok, and, what about homeopathic ? Isn't it the same ?
Blessings Rev. Jean-Anasthase
Yep, 99.999% water with a distant dream of something else has squat all effect.
Are you still going to say that medical treatment alone saves people when the doctors have tried everything that they can think of to cure someone and haven't succeeded and have given up hope for a cure, but prayers bring about what the doctors couldn't do? There are plenty of examples online. You don't even think for yourself, much less both of us, if you believe that prayers don't work even in those cases or that a mindless universe is running and maintaining itself without any Mind behind it. The evasion of saying "it's just coincidence" doesn't really explain that at all.
If there are ‘plenty of examples’ pick one that is not purely anecdotal and give me the link. I’m not into ghost hunting so if you have a favorite little something, spit it out. Otherwise just go into your closet and pray to God for him to help you deal with the fact that many people are of the opinion that sitting in the closet talking to your imaginary friend is a perfect example of delusional thinking.
When you are at church one Sunday and you suddenly drop to the floor and have stopped breathing and your heart has stopped, do you want everybody to just pray or call EMS?
There are far more than just one example of prayers resulting in healings when medical care couldn't effect a cure. (1)Testimonials. https://padrepiodevotions.org/testimonials. (2) Healing Stories/Plumtree Church. https://www.plumtreechurch.com (3) My Personal Testimony of Healing --- Jack Hayford Ministries. https://www.jackhayford.org/articles. (4) 4 Real-Life Miracle Stories That Prove The Power of Prayers and Restore Our Faith in God. https://daily.lessonslearnedinlife.com. (5) 7 Miraculous Stories About the Power of Healing Prayers. https://www.rd.com/list/prayers. (6) How I was touched by God's healing hand/Stories. Newspring Church. https://newspring.cc/keith faust. (7) Seacoast Church. Abbie's Story of Healing. https://www.seacoast.org/stories (8) The Power of Prayers --- Miracles From God True Stories. https://prayingmiracles.com/the-power... There are plenty more examples of the power of prayer and personal testimonials aren't merely anecdotal. There is no shortage of evidence that prayers work. The problem isn't with the amount or strength of the evidence, but with the mindset and bigotry against God of the people to whom the evidence is being shown, who won't let themselves or let yourself be convinced by any amount or strength of evidence, but will always hide behind and toss out some evasion to avoid actually considering the evidence or accepting it as true, such as dismissing it wrongly as "anecdotal", "Bronze Age" or some other irrelevancy. But evidence doesn't stop being evidence because you call it names, and "think", like a little kid, that that "disproves" it, and that arguing with a STOP sign that it really says "GO" makes it actually say GO! Your attitude is the same as that of members of The Flat Earth Society, who won't let themselves be convinced by any amount or strength of evidence put right in front of their faces that disproves their fanatical insistence that "the Earth is flat" that the Earth isn't flat, but will say that the evidence is "merely photoshopped", etc., the same as you say that the evidence disproving your fanatical insistence that "prayers don't work" is "anecdotal, Bronze Age", etc. No difference between you and them! That is why people stay stuck in racism and other wrong "thinking": because they are fixated and entrenched in their "thinking", which you "think" wrongly "is only going on with other people and not with you", and no amount or strength of evidence proving you or them wrong will ever get through to you or them and is casting more pearls in front of pigs, because the minds of anti-God bigots, too, are like the pupils of eyes: the more light that you shine upon them, the smaller they get!! If God exists and prayers worked, you would no longer be "sovereign over your world" or your will "supreme" or the universe work as you say that it does, and so, of course, "there is no God and prayers don't work", according to you. That is why even atheists can admit that houses were built and designed and didn't just sprout up out of the ground, even though they didn't see them built or designed, but won't admit that the far greater evidence of design and creation and maintenance in the universe prove the existence of a Creator, since it threatens their "sovereignty" and will being "supreme". The problems with our world result from our disobedience to God's will. I have asked you and other atheists here before to show me evidence of unthinking things, as the universe is unthinking, doing anything for themselves, such as a car driving itself around and getting its own gas and making repairs by itself, and none of you have provided that evidence. Until you do, the universe doesn't work the way that you say that it does, because what you can't get even a car to do, you can forget all about the whole rest of the universe doing!!
Thanks, perfect example here, and I quote/copy/paste…. “I went through many treatments and was able to stay cancer free for four years. Then, this past spring of 2017, I was diagnosed with stage four breast cancer that metastasized to my lungs. It was one of the hardest times of my life. However, with my team of doctors and the amazing support of my family, friends, and faith, my cancer is shrinking and accepting my treatments.”
Now let’s just delete the hokum… I went through many treatments and was able to stay cancer free for four years. Then, this past spring of 2017, I was diagnosed with stage four breast cancer that metastasized to my lungs. It was one of the hardest times of my life. However, with my team of doctors my cancer is shrinking and accepting my treatments.
This is your ‘evidence’? It reads more like a common occurrence in the oncology department of any scientific organization known as a ‘hospital’.
As for the origins of the universe and life, the cosmological aspect has been explained far more than adequately. Well, all the way back to the first fraction of a second. Everything that happened afterwards has been explained through science. If you want to use God Putty (also known as ‘God of the gaps, the tendency of believers to search at the edges of science, find something that is still unexplainable and the cry ‘God did it’) in order to shore up your ancient belief system, go for it.
Or you could try this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Universe_from_Nothing
It’s a current effort to scrape the flaking God Putty off the question of that first few millionths of a sec. People like you still fling God Putty as if you are religiously delusional vandals but it just doesn’t stick.
It was rather humorous to see you get on the side of science and knowledge regarding the Flat Earthers. Do you STAY on the side of science when it comes to the Young Earthers, those morons that insist that the world is only 6,000 or so years old? That fossils were planted by devils and that humans and dinosaurs coexisted?
You are an adherent to the beliefs of ancient pre-humans, a group of Bronze Age nomadic desert goat herders that felt they could explain the origin of the earth, biogenesis and the diversity of life with a magical entity that could perform finger snapping magic. And yet do so while being unable to explain where the sun went at night.
It is clearly true (even if not to you and your ilk, who don't have both or any oars in the water and aren't playing with a full deck!) that the central issue and question here isn't "God putty" or "the god of the gaps". That issue, which you keep evading because you can't answer it yourself is how a universe without any Mind behind it still obviously displays signs of intelligent design and creation, which it shouldn't at all be capable of doing ever!! That isn't at the edges of science, but is right in the center of everything and is the elephant in the room, which you and your ilk keep ignoring and devise illogical "explanations" for in order to toss out anything at all, no matter how plainly desperate it is, to avoid having to deal with that elephant. No accidental ordering of the universe is capable of synchronizing, calibrating, coordinating, and maintaining the universe as it is, without which the Earth couldn't support life or might not even be here. Again, if the universe works the way that you say that it does, without any Mind behind it, then show us all the evidence of that by the example of a self-driving car, since if you can't even do that, the entire rest of the universe can't work that way, either. Your and all other atheists and non-believers of any kind's existence contradicts your blindness and insistence that "there is no evidence for God's existence", since, if that were really true, you wouldn't be here to say or "think" it! You merely dismiss it as "God putty" and "the god of the gaps" in order to avoid the obvious staring you right in your faces!! You also clearly didn't read any of the references that I gave you or really understand them if you did because people's recovering from cancer and other problems, anyway, after doctors have done everything that they can do and have given up hope for a cure couldn't possibly be "a common occurrence in the oncology department of any hospital" or there would be little to no reason to bother with medical treatment, instead of just waiting for that "common occurrence of a miracle" to solve the problem. God isn't asking people to only rely on Him for help with cancer and other problems, but to be His hands in the world, too, and help each other, while realizing that there are limitations to what man can do and then turn to Him for help in what is beyond the power of doctors and man to do. It isn't only a choice between prayers for medical and other problems or medical and social intervention, but both of them working together. The Catholic saying goes "Pray as if everything depends on God, but work as if everything depends on you". That is why actual Christians don't just pray for social justice and healing of medical problems, but also do what they can themselves to bring about justice and healing of those problems.The Young Earthers are wrong about the Earth's only being 6,000 years old, just as you and other atheists and non-believers are also wrong about many things, instead of your view that "wrong thinking only exists among Christians and other religious people". You are always harping on Bronze Age people's not knowing where the sun went at night, as though that alone made them incapable of knowing the truth about anything, but you and many others know where the sun goes at night, and still don't know the truth about many things yourselves!! So, just not knowing where the sun goes at night is no absolute bar to knowing any truth at all because they were much smarter than you and your ilk are about many more important things than that!! That is probably why God chose to speak to those goat herders, instead of to the pseudo-intellectual people today, because their pride in their intellectual pretentions wouldn't get in the way of their hearing and responding to Him, as it does for you and other self-centered and intellectually proud people today.
I read as far as the following and simply stopped. Not reading past this.. “ That issue, which you keep evading because you can't answer it yourself is how a universe without any Mind behind it still obviously displays signs of intelligent design and creation, which it shouldn't at all be capable of doing ever!! ”
Intelligent design is predicated upon cause and effect and more importantly a complex system requiring a more complex system for its creation. Surely the complexity of the universe and all life had to be designed, just as you say. Let’s ignore the fact that science has explained a huge (major) portion of the how and why and focus on the problem. Your god is the more complex/capable system behind the cause of the universe. And what of the creation of god? Oh, THAT? Always existed. Nope, if you are going to use god to explain the origin of everything, not leave the exact same question with the origin of god, you’ve accomplished nothing other than to open up the universe’s largest God Putty distributorship.
The comment column has grown too narrow for my liking.
All contingent things need a Creator, but in order for there to ever be any contingent things and beings at all, there has to be something or Someone that isn't contingent and couldn't not exist and a First Cause. Otherwise, your and all other atheists' way, there would have to have been an endless retrogression of created things and beings one before another and the universe would never come to exist because there wouldn't be a necessary first cause to start the ball rolling. My way and all other believers' way, there is that First Cause and the universe can exist. That isn't "the largest God Putty distributorship", but just logic and reason, and you and other atheists and non-believers can't come up with any better explanation, which doesn't involve endless retrogression and so no universe. Saying that matter has always existed doesn't solve the problem of the intelligence clearly displayed in the universe because matter and natural forces don't have any intelligence, and so we are back again to the necessity for a supremely intelligent Creator for the universe to exist, which all the geniuses in history put together couldn't figure out how to synchronize, calibrate, coordinate, and maintain, and they weren't around all those billions of years ago and weren't conferencing when the universe began to do it, even if they could have done it. So, we are back to God as the explanation for the universe. I'm sure that you and other atheists and non-believers have devised "explanations" that satisfy you, anyway, to "account for" the complexity in the universe, in your desperation to resort to anything as an "answer" rather than admit the only obvious and reasonable answer, which is God, but the bottom line still remains that these natural "explanations" and forces don't have any intelligence and so aren't up to the job requirements for the creation, maintenance, and regulation of the universe.
Having consciousness is the defining characteristic of being human. Individuals educated within this field are far more qualified to determine when human consciousness arose.
We haven't been waiting around for so-called "experts" or people "educated within this field", who are, according to themselves, "more qualified to determine when human consciousness arose" to tell us who are the conscious people or anything about it, since we can figure that out just fine all by ourselves without these self-appointed and snobbish "authorities on the subject". That is only their egotism and intellectual pride that make them say and believe that they know more than others and your gullibility and wanting to appear "more intellectual" and praising the Emperor about "his new clothes" when he is naked that make you go along with their delusions about themselves.
Explaining the how and why, even if science has actually done that, doesn't explain the who because the how and why didn't come up with themselves and don't do themselves, anymore than telling how a chef makes his meals or why he makes them eliminates the need for the chef. You still have the problem of answering the question of who employs those methods for devising the universe, after you have explained the how and why of its being done. And you have ignored the user and reasoner behind those hows and whys.
Additionally, there are different types of atheists. Myself, I simply do not feel there is any credible evidence for the existence of ‘gods’.Need a plural there, because yours ain’t da only one, bud. When you consider the total number of gods that have been proposed over the course of human history, and the number YOU don’t believe in, you’re a 99.9% atheist yourself and are only slightly less atheistic than me because I ‘find no credible evidence’ for any of them.
If you read a story about a woman who has cancer, goes to the doctor, gets treatment, the cancer goes away and then attribute the results to a magical entity because her friends and family prayed to that entity, well, that’s not science and you better hush up about Flat Earthers. YOU have never been up in space, YOU have never seen it, yet you believe in a round earth. That idea is thousands of years old. The size of the earth has been known for that long, yet you cling to the religious beliefs of ignorant pre-humans? As Forrest said, ‘Stupid is as stupid does.’
Your and other people's not feeling that "there is any credible evidence for God's existence" and there not actually being any credible evidence for God's existence are two entirely different things. Many false "gods" don't invalidate the true God, anymore than counterfeit money or other fraudulent items invalidate real money or genuine items. You don't put all of these other false items on the same level with genuine articles and practice what you preach that Christians should do toward false "gods". So, why should we do something toward them that you aren't even doing in this matter? Something's being called a "god" doesn't actually make it God. There is a standard for God and not just whatever anyone wants to call "God". You want to eliminate any standard for Truth or God or morality, other than your self-serving standard for all of them, but your trying to do so doesn't actually eliminate that standard. Your dismissing some people as "prehuman", "Bronze Age goat herders", and other name calling doesn't actually make them wrong about anything or prove that you are right about anything, which is just your snobbishness, bigotry, judgmentalism, condescension, and intellectual pride. Apply "stupid is as stupid does" to all of those attitudes in yourself and not only to other people.
“ Many false "gods" don't invalidate the true God”
And you, and your like minded believers, have become The Decider of the true god? Each of these gods had, or currently have, the same opinion. The common thread? All were religiously delusional.
You do know that there has been discussion of including religious belief, when held to certain extents that you would certainly qualify for, to be included on the spectrum of mental disorders. Delusional plain and simple.
“ Your dismissing some people as "prehuman", "Bronze Age goat herders", and other name calling doesn't actually make them wrong about anything or prove that you are right about anything,”
I’m not referring to your kind as ignorant, pre-human, Bronze Age goat herders, I’m simply pointing out facts. Well, pre-humans certainly had their religions/gods but whether or not the originators of your ancient belief system were pre-human likely will never be determined. Julian Jaynes, in his book “The origins of consciousness in the breakdown of the bicameral mind” certainly thinks the old testament was written by pre-humans without what we now consider ‘consciousness’. The new testament however sees a new god that has spent some time in therapy and mended his ways. (He’ll still toss you in hell but doesn’t smite humans as much as before.) The authors of the old testament, creating the Abrahamic god, were arguably pre-humans though. And they were in the Bronze Age, and they did live in the desert, and they were nomadic, they did herd goats and given that they thought they could explain cosmological origins without being able to explain where the sun went at night qualifies them as ignorant.
And, again, you know where the sun goes at night, but that hasn't stopped you and other atheists and non-believers from being very ignorant about many things. So, there is no connection between knowing or not knowing where the sun goes at night and the knowledge that anyone has in other areas. The goat herders and Bronze Age people were smarter than you and other pseudo-sophisticated people today are about many things that actually matter. Some Bible writers made "God" after their own image, not because they lived in the Bronze Age, but because they were human beings, since people even today are doing that, too. They had enough consciousness to do that, the same as many people today do, and so the Bronze Age is irrelevant to consciousness. There haven't been any prehumans since Neanderthal man and so any people after their time, no matter how much you disagree with their "thinking" or way of living or dislike the time that they lived in, as I disagree with those Bible writers' making God after their own image, too, were still human beings. You might as well call the Nazis or Communists or serial killers or rapists or child molesters or any other detestable people or those that you just don't like "prehuman" as call goat herders in the Bronze Age or goat herders today, for that matter, "prehumans".