In the wake of a severe chickenpox outbreak in Kentucky, a Catholic high school student was barred from playing on the school basketball team when officials discovered he was not vaccinated against the disease.
Now 18-year-old Jerome Kunkel is claiming he was discriminated against based on his religious beliefs. Both Kunkel and his parents have declined the Varicella vaccine on account of their conservative Catholic faith something the state of Kentucky allows if a sworn statement is provided.
But the school decided public safety took precedence over this legal protection and banned Kunkel from participating in school activities. He now plans to sue the Northern Kentucky Health Department.
Cracking Down on Anti-Vax**
The Health Department responded to the lawsuit by claiming its actions were "an appropriate and necessary response to prevent further spread of this contagious illness."
Following the first reported case of chickenpox at the elementary school, the Health Department informed the parish its students could not take part in extracurricular activities unless they were vaccinated. It eventually announced that all students lacking proof of vaccination or immunity would be barred from both school and afterschool games and events until 21 days after the last person was infected.
Fighting Back
Kunkel says he was devastated after learning the news. "The fact that I can't finish my senior year of basketball, like our last couple games is pretty devastating," he fumed to CNN. "I mean you go through four years of high school, playing basketball, but you look forward to your senior year."
The lawsuit filed in Boone County Circuit Court alleges the health department's epidemiology manager attacked Kunkel's faith, banned him with specific religious animus, and infringed on his right to freedom of religion and expression. As part of this argument in favor of religious exemptions, lawyers cited the use of fetal tissue in the creation of the original chickenpox vaccine:
"Among other fundamental and deeply held religious beliefs of Mr. Kunkel, and the beliefs of his family, is that the use of any vaccine that is derived from aborted fetal cells is immoral, illegal and sinful," the lawsuit reads.
Do Vaccines Contain Fetal Cells?
Although the modern chickenpox vaccine does not contain any fetal tissue, it was developed back in the 1960s using cell lines derived from a pair of aborted fetuses. Those same fibroblast cells (and no others) are still used today to make five different vaccines: rubella, hepatitis A, varicella, shingles, and rabies.
So although the technical answer is yes, it's a minute amount from just two sources collected many, many years ago. However, that fact doesn't stop those with religious convictions against vaccines from misrepresenting the issue.
Should You Be Able to Refuse Vaccines?
Despite well-funded public education campaigns explaining the dangers of not getting vaccinated against infectious diseases, strong anti-vaccination sentiments persist. These beliefs aren't confined to religious groups either - a vicious outbreak of measles recently hit secular communities in Washington State.
That said, Catholics in particular have a history of abstaining from vaccinations due to anti-abortion views. In 2005, the Pontifical Academy for Life concluded that while Catholics should push for the development of new vaccines with higher moral origins, "this important battle cannot and must not fall on innocent children and on the health situation of the population especially with regard to pregnant women." Pope Benedict XVI even insisted it was morally acceptable for parents to vaccinate their children because Catholics believe in protecting children from suffering, harm and death.
However, this message clearly hasn't been adopted by all Catholics. In their view, so long as fetal tissue is involved in any way, vaccines should be resisted.
Where do you stand on the issue of religious exemptions for vaccinations? Is the ability to "opt out" an important part of maintaining a free society, or should staying unvaccinated be considered an endangerment to public health and safety?
251 comments
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Ruth Williams
Meet the babies that were sacrificed and used in the name of herd immunity and for the greater good. At least they didn’t go completely to waste, right? At least scientists were able to turn something terrible into “good” right?
PER.C6, Cell line from retinal tissue of a 18 week old fetus aborted in 1985, further developed and prepared as cell line in 1995. There was nothing special in the family history, or the pregnancy was completely normal up to the 18 weeks, and it turned out to be a socially indicated abortus, abortus provocatus, and that was simply because the woman wanted to get rid of the fetus.
HEK293, These cells were generated in 1973 by transfection of cultures of normal human embryonic kidney cells with sheared adenovirus in Alex van der Eb's laboratory in Leiden, the Netherlands. The cells were obtained from a single, apparently healthy, legally aborted fetus under Dutch law; the identity of the parent and the reason for the abortion are unknown.
RA 27/3, The virus strain used in the MMR vaccine rubella-component, is also harvested from aborted fetal tissue. This strain is better known as RA 27/3 and was obtained from a fetus whose mother had rubella during pregnancy and performed an abortion because of risk of fetal damage. RA 27/3 is also grown in cell line WI-38.
To develop diploid human cell strains, Hayflick and Moorhead began cultivating cells from 25 different tissues retrieved from aborted fetuses. Those cells became 25 different human cell strains, named numerically WI-1 through WI-25. The WI stood for Wistar Institute, where the cell strains were developed. Hayflick and Moorhead used fetal tissues because, more than adult cells, fetal cells more readily developed into fibroblast cells, which are specialized cells that provide structural support to most body tissues.
These were all the cells taken from murdered babies WI-1 through WI-27 until their experiment on murdered unborn baby WI-38 was a “success”. WI-1 aborted baby’s lung cells
WI-2 aborted baby’s skin and muscle cells
WI-3 aborted baby’s lung cells
WI-4 aborted baby’s kidney cells
WI-5 aborted baby’s muscle cells
WI-6 aborted baby’s kidney cells
WI-7 aborted baby’s thymus and thyroid cells
WI-8 aborted baby’s skin, muscle, kidney
WI-9 aborted baby’s skin cells
WI-10 aborted baby’s kidney cells
WI-11 aborted baby’s lung cells
WI-12 aborted baby’s skin and muscle cells
WI-13 aborted baby’s kidney cells
WI-14 aborted baby’s skin cells
WI-15 aborted baby’s kidney cells
WI-16 aborted baby’s lung cells
WI-17 aborted baby’s liver cells
WI-18 aborted baby’s lung tissue
WI-19 aborted baby’s lung tissue
WI-20 aborted baby’s skin and muscle
WI-21 aborted baby’s heart cells
WI-22 aborted baby’s heart cells
WI-23 aborted baby’s lung cells
WI-24 aborted baby’s lung cells
WI-25 aborted baby’s lung cells
WI-26, WI-26 VA4: An SV40 transformed derivative of WI-26, a human diploid cell line derived from embryonic lung tissue of a 3 month gestational aged male Caucasian
WI-27 when this aborted baby’s cells failed cells were then obtained from WI-38 which was “successful”.
WI-38, This cell was obtained from woman was three months pregnant, but she didn't want another child. In 1962, at a hospital in Sweden, she had a legal abortion. The fetus — female, 20 centimetres long and wrapped in a sterile green cloth — was delivered to the Karolinska Institute in northwest Stockholm. There, the lungs were dissected, packed on ice and dispatched to the airport, where they were loaded onto a transatlantic flight.
IMR-90, was derived by W.W. Nichols and associates from the lungs of a 16-week female fetus. Used as an alternate for
WI-44, aborted lungs cells from a 3 gestational month old female fetus used in an experiment along with the cells of deceased adults.
MCR-5, derived from lung tissue of a 14 week old male fetus who was aborted for psychiatric reason from a 27 year old physically healthy woman. Vaccines cultivated on these lines are rubella (German measles), varicella (chickenpox), hepatitis A and rabies. The human diploid fibroblast strain
MRC-9, the cells were derived from the lungs of a female fetus in 1974, whose gestational age was about fifteen weeks. The fetus was of normal development and was delivered of a fourteen-year-old mother whose pregnancy was terminated by therapeutic abortion because she was unmarried. The medical history of the mother and her family indicated nothing abnormal according to information given by the gynecologist who performed the operation. The lungs were dissected from the fetus immediately following the abortion.
FHs74Int, small intestine obtained 3-4mo gestational age of a female.
IMR-90 was established from a sixteen-week-old human fetus on July 7, 1975, from a therapeutic abortion performed on a thirty-eight-year-old white mother of six.
Walvax-2, which we derived from the lung tissue of a 3-month-old fetus. Currently being studied for future use.
~Sarah Saunders
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JASON D BENDER
To everything you just said, I yawn and so so the F what!?!
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Sheila
It's no wonder vaccinations kill and maim so many people - karma.
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John Owens
Sooo, it could very easily be considered a form of cannibalism.
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JASON D BENDER
Babies! The other, other white meat!!!
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John Owens
How utterly tasteless of a thing to say, but somehow appropriate in this context.
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Beth K
My understanding is that babies are rather tasteless, but when simmered with shallots and rosemary, then served with hollinaise sauce, with a side of broccoli and scalloped potatoes, babies can be part of a delicious and nutritious meal.
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John Owens
Y'all don't realize how ghoulish you are.
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The Doctor
I want my baby back baby back baby back ribs oh yeah forget veal now that is tender and tasty.
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JASON D BENDER
The reason John is so offended is that we are talking about "white" babies (eg "Babies! The other, other white meat!!!", stated supra.)
If we were talking about brown babies the response from John would be:
(LOL for those readers who do not get subtext - Trumpies, that means you - the above empty space means: Silence!)
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John Owens
There you go again, implying racism where there is none, and then accepting it because you imagined it. This is why grown men shouldn't live in fantasy worlds.
My grandson is brown, 13 years old, and I took off work last Tuesday to take him to participate in a mock trial in which he is one of the witnesses. He is one of the great loves in my life. All of the baby-eating comments are vile and disgusting but to be somewhat expected of people who just accept abortion as a normal form of birth control.
Your silly liberal ideas about racism show ignorance not only of real racism, but also about people from different races. You should really develop some close relationships with people from different races, and after twenty or forty years you might understand how stupid your accusations now are.
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Larry Larson
What I would like to hear and NO ONE is talking about is the number of persons infected during the recent breakouts who WERE vaccinated. The mainstream media buys into the Government/AMA/ hype hook,line and sinker, but I guarantee you that a significant number of those infected were in fact vaccinated themselves. So what is the value of a vaccine if it does not prevent? There is also the distinct possibility that the initial flare up of the illness came from students who were vaccinated. And most importantly, why is no one talking about this? Why are these particular numbers not being released? Why are no investigative reporters looking into this aspect of the issue?
If your vaccinations are so great then you should have nothing to fear from a handful of people who choose to not be vaccinated. Why are you afraid? More importantly, why do THEY want you to be afraid--THEY being the government, the AMA, Big Pharma? Who profits when everyone is forced to be vaccinated? What are the hidden costs of vaccinating everyone? Just as surely as Big Tobacco buried hundreds of research studies linking tobacco to cancer and emphysema for decades, there are costs of vaccination that are being deliberately kept hidden.
Informed consent requires complete information.
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JASON D BENDER
No-one is afraid of the big bad anti vaxxers... We are just commenting on (or mocking, as the case may be) the truly legendary levels of stupidity and ignorance among the anti vaxxers... much like the flat earthers!
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John Owens
There is that dumbest of all liberal expressions-- flat-earthers! If they say that, you know they are at least trying to march and think in lock-step with the liberal fad of the day. I think the other sci-fi geek said it above. Hilarious.
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JASON D BENDER
You think opposition to 'flat earthers' (those that think the Earth is not a globe) is an example of "(marching and thinking) in lock-step with the liberal fad of the day" and calling them out is the "dumbest of all liberal expression(s)"?!?
WOW! John, I am unsure if you are kidding or not... I thought you were a typical angry slightly delusional republitard... Like Mom and Dad... But, if you really are one of THOSE people... (a) You belong on Youtube, not here so much, there are many of your kind there!
(b) I am done debating you... Some types of stupid cannot be fixed, and one must choose one's battles... (c) My condolences and regards to your friends and loved ones for their loss... It's so sad when a person is lost this way...-
John Owens
You have not debated me at all, Jason. All you do is say stupid things, and then pretend that the stupid things you say make you clever. You are totally full of bigotry, yet you like to accuse me of it.
You are right about one thing, though-- some types of stupid can't be fixed, like YOUR kind of stupid.
Opposition to flat-earthers is not wrong. What is wrong is that you are imagining flat-earthers, and calling people flat-earthers, when there are none.
You do the same with racism, just throwing that word out when your silly argument runs into truth and logic.
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JASON D BENDER
John, so... to sum up your so oft repeated argument : "I am not insert pejorativen here, you are!
You make a compelling case! /end sarcasm
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Beth K
Immunology is a complicated subject. Let me break it down for you.
The "magic number" in any outbreak of anything is how many people each newly-infected person will likely spread it to, on average. If that number is exactly 1, the disease is holding steady. If that number is greater than 1, it is spreading. If it is less than 1, it is going away.
That number can go up or down depending how many people the infected person encounters, and it goes up or down depending how many people in the community are susceptible to the disease. Moreover, if someone has previously had a short or mild encounter with the disease, or a related disease, they will likely have a milder case of it, and be more likely to survive it. For instance, if nearly everyone in the community has had the disease, and 90% of them have immunity from the disease, few will get it. If no one has ever encountered anything like this disease before, most of them will get it and have especially harsh cases of it. That is why the Native people of North America were nearly decimated by measles and small pox, whereas most Europeans who got measles survived, as did many who got small pox. They had partial immunity.
So, the goal is to lower the number of people this newly-infected person can pass their disease to. We do that by limiting the number of susceptible people the patient has access to. That can be limited either by imposing quarantine on the infected person, or making it such that fewer of the population are susceptible to the disease. People can be less-susceptible to a disease through vaccination/immunization or having previously contracted the disease. This keeps epidemics from breaking out.
Now, vaccines do not work 100% of the time. If you had a vaccine, and you are exposed to the disease, you become ill, you recover completely (and probably have immunity), you become ill and have a lingering disability along with immunity as a result, or you become ill and die. Having most of the population vaccinated fends off epidemics. It works for populations.
For individuals, if someone is in the minority that the vaccine or having the actual disease did not confer complete immunity, well, too bad. They in likelihood got a milder case of it than they would have had they never encountered it before. They will likely live. If that person is to young, too sick, allergic, immunocompromised, and cannot be vaccinated, they have a lower probability of encountering the disease. They might though, and they're in the same situation as the unvaccinated population. But, it's less likely. And, it will be for less time, because there are few susceptible people to get the disease, the epidemic will be over very soon - or never start.
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JASON D BENDER
Wow! You did an awesome job explaining that in a way that was enjoyable and interesting - a task far easier said than done! I have very much enjoyed your other posts as well.
Peace! J&F
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John Owens
...and thank you.
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Ruth VonBulow-Bauer
I'm in the medical field & a family of eight children. We didn't have any of them vaccinated because I firmly don't believe in any of it, & not one of them ever got infected by anything. In the early days when Vaccinations were first introduced for Diptheria here in Australia, they called for all the young children including babies.... well it was the most Horrific thing that...it killed 65 children children in one day...some Parents loosing their whole family. I was just a little girl not School age & I told my mother if they came to our home to do it I was going to run out in the paddock & hide because I wasn't going to let them poke needles in my arm. My view on contageous diseases...if one gets stricken down with contageous disease...consult your doctor & obey the rules 'till it recedes & cleared up, it should not strike again nor spread to other people & then you are immunised naturally.There is NO Place in our body for Chemicals or Preservatives. When you find one??? please let me know. You will go down in a History Book... hahaha.
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JASON D BENDER
Luddite ! It depends upon the chemical and preservative. Some are bad, some are worse, some are safe under certain circumstances, some are very safe. Some less so. Some chemicals are awesome and can greatly increase your life span... Where you are SOL is that knowing the difference requires understanding and appreciation of math and science - the application of common sense and basic logic... So, yeah, in your case i guess you are screwed! LOL
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Beth K
It's frightening that this person may be in the medical profession! Are they really so indifferent to some of their infant, elderly, sick, immunocompromised, and allergic patients that they would willingly expose them to diseases they might be carrying? Are they willing to pay the price for it - in terms of everything from causing an illness or disability, or engaging in reckless endangerment resulting in a death - which brings prison time.
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JASON D BENDER
Agreed, 100&
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Sheila
beth_KCZ & JASON D BENDER - you're both stupid.
Who got the prison time in Australia for killing off those 65 children with vaccinations?
How about going after the people creating all these anti-biotics that have created the super bugs? Oh, let me guess - "they" aren't willing to pay the price for it.
Neither ought a person keeping their immune system strong by NOT vaccinating be willing to pay the price for people who happen to get sick. And, NO, people don't go around exposing people with compromised immune systems to disease when people happen to be sick. Duh! Ruth's family isn't going around spreading their germs when they happen to be sick any more often than what vaccinated people do.
And - so when vaccinated people get some superbug and happen to expose someone to it, and it kills the person, the vaccinated people are exempt for having to pay for it? But, if the person hasn't been vaccinated, then they've got to pay?
Put on your signs - you're both stupid.
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JASON D BENDER
There was not 65 children in Australia killed by diphtheria vaccine in one day, dummy. Not even in 1 year. Not even since the vaccine was introduced! Your 'facts' are intentional lies or irresponsibly incorrect. The opinions you form based on these so-called 'facts' are therefore completely invalid and worthless. This includes your opinions of me or other persons here who have wasted their time arguing with you. Your ramblings based upon your opinions are, likewise, completely unworthy of comment or further consideration.
Before the vaccine: Diphtheria caused more deaths in Australia than any other infectious disease.
Since the vaccine: No vaccinated person has died from diphtheria in Australia in the past 20 years.
So, even if your lie about the 65 kids were true, the diphtheria vaccine would still be a massive life-saving success as yearly deaths numbering in the tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, was reduced to 1 diphtheria death (in an unvaccinated man) over the last 8 years!
Once again, you loose the argument in spectacular fashion.
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Sheila
JASON D BENDER You said, "There was not 65 children in Australia killed by diphtheria vaccine in one day, dummy. Not even in 1 year. Not even since the vaccine was introduced!"
Talk about not providing a link to this supposed "proof" no one's been killed since diphtheria vaccine been introduced. Walk your talk. Besides the 65 children who died; 12 other children died from it in the 1920s. Here's links for the Bundaberg Tragedy https://www.jstor.org/stable/40111374 & https://avn.org.au/information/vaccines-and-diseases/dtp/diphtheria/ Yes, you say stupid things when you hone in on finding info you want to find, and don't even think it through as to whether it really makes sense. And, yes, in general you make practice of saying stupid things - hence your collection of self-written fairy tales. And, your sign.
Also widely recognized that the DTaP vaccine can cause: Serious allergic reaction, Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness, Permanent brain damage. And, on top of it all, it's been proven to cause SIDS: http://vaccinepapers.org/high-mortality-dtp-vaccine/ And, if that proof for SIDS isn't strong enough for you - no surprise.
You said, "So, even if your lie about the 65 kids were true, the diphtheria vaccine would still be a massive life-saving success as yearly deaths numbering in the tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, was reduced to 1 diphtheria death (in an unvaccinated man) over the last 8 years!" Yeah, you aren't taking into account all the infant people who died by SIDS due to the diphtheria vaccine. In 2017, there were 3,600 sudden unexpected infant deaths (SUID) in the United States. https://www.cdc.gov/sids/data.htm And, have you considered that infectious disease deaths declined nearly 90% BEFORE vaccines were introduced (including diphtheria) https://www.learntherisk.org/diseases/ Yeah, diphtheria vaccine was introduced in the 1920s - yet not widely used and follows the same trend of becoming less as what other infectious disease did that was BEFORE vaccination for them.
"Over the last two decades parents have become increasingly concerned about the science supporting government vaccination programs as the chronic illness in Australian children has increased 5-fold in direct correlation to the expanded vaccination program." https://vaccinationdecisions.net/ Hmmm... even if vaccines were saving a lot of lives, it means nothing in comparison to causing more deaths by asthma that outpace the possible deaths the vaccine is supposedly preventing.
You're ignoring the skyrocketing rates of autism and chronic illness. It's outpacing harm that polio caused. Autism alone outpaces polio - yet it sure didn't at the time of polio. Autism is over 1 percent of our population (currently 1 in 59; but lots of evidence that 1 in 30 something is really more accurate). Polio was .0367 percent. That's 57,628 with polio in 1952 when population was approx 157 million.
I'm pretty sure that people who survived polio if given a choice would pick polio over the brain damage that gets diagnosed as autism that was caused by vaccination. And, a whole lot of autistic people are dying to accidents in comparison to neurotypical people.
I'm making the comparison because research has shown to suspect the connection that vaccines cause and/or worsen autism for the cases where it already existed genetically.
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JASON D BENDER
SO... I ask for a link about the alleged 65 dead in one day and what you give is about the Bundaberg tragedy, where 12 died almost a century ago, in 1928.
NOTHING that happened in 1928 is relevant to today. Vaccines in question are not manufactured in the same way as they were then... For Christ's sake - they did not even have refrigeration in 1928.
As far as the rest of what you wrote, the Vax autism link has been thoroughly debunked.
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Sheila
Jason Bender, in quotes in #1-5 is what you've said: 1) " ... the Bundaberg tragedy, [is] where 12 died almost a century ago, in 1928" true and it was by the diphtheria vaccine used at the time that the 12 deaths occurred 2) " ...they did not even have refrigeration in 1928." seems to be true 3) "NOTHING that happened in 1928 is relevant to today." Fairy tale by Jason Bender. Instead, what's true is 1928 was the beginning of the fruition of the super bugs we have today. No sense describing more things, your statement is proven fiction. 4) "There was not [anyone] killed by diphtheria vaccine in one day, dummy. Not even in 1 year. Not even since the vaccine was introduced!" Fairy tale plagiarized by Jason Bender. How about you provide the link to your propaganda spreading buddies passing on this blatant piece of fiction? No surprise you didn't recognize it as fiction when you found it "out there on the internet" - but then you went ahead and plagiarized it as one of your own fairy tales. 5) Hmmm.... not commenting anything about DTaP vaccine causing SIDS ...
You said, "I ask for a link about the alleged 65 dead in one day " Still whining about that? It's as though you were born yesterday that you think all of prominent history gets recorded. And then you write some fairy tale based on your La La Land perception. Look, I know important things get covered up - you don't because you're stupid. Based on big cover ups I know from 1st hand experience; I know the anecdote about the 65 children dead in Australia in one day due to diphtheria vaccine sounds more likely to be true than not true - you don't because you're stupid and would dismiss a cover up happening to you personally even if it bit your nose off. If you showed a glimmer of intelligence you'd say something along the lines of, "I think what you're describing is slightly remotely possible, but really it sounds too far fetched to not get recorded in history - people talk, and I don't see how it's possible that would go by unnoticed even if there was an agenda for doing so." A statement like that would at least have some intelligence to it. But, instead you write fairy tales. In short, you're not going to get your link if it's been covered up (unfortunately that's more than "slightly remotely possible" & you might even realize it too if you had any idea about Australian politics); or if it didn't happen at all. You're assuming the latter is the ONLY possibility, and that's just another one of your fairy tales.
As for your saying, "Vax autism link has been thoroughly debunked" - that's all poppycock from someone who obviously does NOT understand the scientific method. Even as badly done as the 2004 "Eighth and Final Autism Study" was, even that study admits the link between vaccinations and autism continues to be theoretical. That's not some disproven hypothesis. The link between vaccinations and autism is THEORY - which is no small thing.
Theory: "A scientific theory consists of one or more hypotheses that have been supported by repeated testing. Theories are one of the pinnacles of science and are widely accepted in the scientific community as being true. A theory must never be shown to be wrong; if it is, the theory is disproven. Theories can also evolve. This doesn’t mean the old theory was wrong. It’s just that new information was discovered." https://futurism.com/hypothesis-theory-or-law
The theory that vaccinations are linked with causing autism continues to be theoretical according to that 8th and final 2004 study. The study further admits, "...genomics and proteonomics could reveal in the future whether or not any genetic susceptibility to vaccine-induced autism exists."
Your statement, "Vax autism link has been thoroughly debunked" isn't even fairy tale material. It's just blatantly false.
And, of course, better done study would find the obvious link between vaccines and autism without any in depth genomics and proteonomics needed.
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JASON D BENDER
Well, Sheila, the majority of scientists and doctors disagree with you.
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John Owens
Thank you, Ruth.
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JASON D BENDER
The bit about the 65 kids is 100% total lies!
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Sheila
You said, "The bit about the 65 kids is 100% total lies!" How would you know? Another one of your fairy tales I see.
Your La La Land must be such bliss.
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JASON D BENDER
If it were true, you would have been able to provide a link proving me wrong instead of just saying something silly.
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Sheila
Oh yeah, cover ups and NOT reporting incidents, even big incidents NEVER occurs. Yes, that's all just a paraphrase of your fairy tale "The bit about the 65 kids is 100% total lies!"
Look, I know how the stuff with my kids was covered up. I also have seen government cover up BIG stuff, even after it gets aired in public news. Just disappears without record of it.
So, I've more evidence that what Ruth said about those 65 kids dying is truth than you have evidence that it isn't.
Regardless, to proclaim, "The bit about the 65 kids is 100% total lies!" is so extremely presumptuous. You'd do far better to simply ask along the lines of, "If it's so true, where's a link telling about it." And, if you've any wisdom, you'd not be shocked if no link existed - and indeed it really possibly is true regardless.
Travel much? Because you really do seem resigned to your La La Land.
Oh, I get it, this is a take off of your magic eraser fairly tale - you know just make sure something does NOT get peer reviewed references from a respected source, and you are ALL BETTER because then somehow it magically NEVER happened. What all do you get to pretend doesn't happen in your life because of this fairy tale? And don't forget your anecdotes, if no one but you experienced it because no one else was around, you know it's not true - never mind the fact that you are the person who actually experienced it. It must be bliss, or why would you stay there?
Am I just saying something silly? I wish I was. It's all just a synonym of your perception of reality. Really this is what you are portraying.
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John Owens
You didn't provide a link backing your statement, Jason.
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JASON D BENDER
John, nice try. You can never provide a link that says some random claim didn't happen, fool. Yeah, there is a news story "65 people didn't die today" every day.
She claimed 65 people died, repeatedly. When asked for a link I got nothing but insults.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Some smart guy
That she is, once again, lying is obvious to (almost) all.
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Sheila
JASON D BENDER You said, "Well, Sheila, the majority of scientists and doctors disagree with you." About what do they disagree with me? Your tale is incomplete. I'll go ahead and complete it for you:
Well, Sheila, the majority of scientists and doctors disagree with you. When you said "...THEORY - which is no small thing [in science]" the majority of scientists and doctors would let you know THEORY has little to no use in the actual practice of scientific method, and therefore THEORY very much is a small thing with regards to science. Fairy Tale
Reality: Ah - no they don't disagree with me that THEORY is no small thing in science. Please find me even one doctor or scientist that agrees "THEORY has little to no use in the actual practice of scientific method" let alone the majority of them. I'll clue you in that you can't, because you're stupid.
And, if you complain - "oh, but I didn't say that." Then stop being stupid and express yourself clearly the first time.
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John Owens
Jason, your last comment here just shows why you cannot prove a certain vaccine PREVENTED so many deaths. NO WAY to ascertain that, FOOL, to use your disrespectful, insolent word.
"John, nice try. You can never provide a link that says some random claim didn’t happen, fool. Yeah, there is a news story “65 people didn’t die today” every day.
She claimed 65 people died, repeatedly. When asked for a link I got nothing but insults."
Your own words show that you it cannot be proven that any vaccine saved X number of lives. You can assume it, you can assert it, you can believe it, you can repeat it, but you cannot prove it, so you REALLY should not state it, if you are interested in being honest and "scientific."
This is a childish game internet weasels use to pretend they are intellectuals-- insist on sources from your opponents, and then try to ridicule their sources and any request for sources from you. It works, too, when you can successfully distract them, but it doesn't make you an intellectual.
Still, you stated that what she said DIDN'T happen because she didn't show a source. You called her a liar. You need a source to prove she is lying.
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Bill Fox
Everyone is correct! I have a right to refuse vaccinations because I am an adult. I do not have the right to refuse vaccinations for my children, because the government will bear the cost of my child not being vaccinated (and, they will bear the cost of unintended consequences of my child being vaccinated). I received childhood vaccines (as well as military), as did my children, and my grandchildren. Some vaccines are very effective, some don't seem to work at all. God protects those who call on Him, but He generally doesn't protect us from not having common sense. It's unfortunate the issue of vaccines has become political. Now there cannot be a reasonable discussion. You are either for all vaccines or against all vaccines, and that is not rational.
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John Owens
There is no reason why the government should bear the cost of your child not being vaccinated. Children are not the responsibility of government, and do not belong to the government.
I'm not really arguing, but if you substitute "collective" for government, you can see where the masses are being mislead.
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John Owens
Misled.
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Sheila
You said about vaccinations - "(and, they will bear the cost of unintended consequences of my child being vaccinated)" I know first hand with my 2 and only children NO they do NOT. Squat - nada - NOTHING was provided to compensate for the unintended consequences including the epilepsy that occurred due to the MMR shot. And, that's a common incident, meaning it happens with 5 percent of infants who have a seizure with the MMR shot. And, it's HIGHER than that because my baby was NOT reported among those stats due to his doctor NOT reporting it. So how many other infants are NOT getting reported as having a seizure with a shot? Yeah, if the government weren't such liars and/or backing liars, maybe the truth would be more plain than it already is. But, regardless, because of lies, vaccines are NOT trusted by many - and rightly so!
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JASON D BENDER
Either the doctor is lying or you are, and you already have been proven a liar here. So, you have zero credibility here.
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Sheila
Nope - I haven't lied, and you can't show that I have. You can show that you have difficulty deciphering information. Such as you don't know the difference between an MMR shot causing epilepsy and then DUE TO THAT tetanus shots, and all other shots are then seizure triggers. Nope, you can't understand that one - so put on your sign. You're stupid.
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Marta A Holness
Yes, it is true. Religion does poison everything. But remember what is a religion? What you believe? How you practice those beliefs?
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Bob Anderson
"Religion poisons everything."
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CW
You can not Sues Over School Ban, Citing Religious Discrimination. The ban has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with health code. Beside the fact it is a school and separation of church and state so your religion should have no say over what rules you must follow in school. Beside you FUCKING anti-vaxxers are almost the most stupid people on the planet. The worse thing about a religion that claim God said not medicine or doctors is that doctors did not exist as a thing when the bible was written. And anyone with a bible that says not allowed by their belief is a moron cause that not the word of God. Second of all You have to be from a weird split of faction of Catholic and no way the pope will back you. Besides it a Catholic high school and you do not tell them how to run it nor do you tell the health code to the state that say you anti-vaxxing ass is going to infect the rest of the students on the team.
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JASON D BENDER
LOL! "Besides it a Catholic high school and you do not tell them how..." - good catch!
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pops
Play by the rules or sit on the bench
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John Owens
Like, the rules that dictate whites only, or heterosexuals only, or men only,?
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JASON D BENDER
the last one... its been all downhill since the suffragettes!
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John Owens
They didn't play by the rules or sit on the bench.
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A druid
At the bottom line the fact that the vatican approves of vaccines means that catholicism cannot be cited as a reason to eschew them.
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John Owens
It is not just vaccines, but the use of fetal tissue.
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Sheila
Awww ... isn't that cute! The Vatican is afraid of the power of the vaccination industry!
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Cynthia
“Vicious” measles outbreak? Overly dramatic don’t u think ? So you know over the last decade there was 1 suspected death from Measles yet 105 from the vaccine right? Yet u all join in a Lynch mob to make an industry with a projected income of 56 billion yearly by 2026 So quick to throw away rights based in media fueled hysteria Good luck with that
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JASON D BENDER
In the Americas 72 people died of measles last year. Before vaccines? No other vaccine-preventable disease causes as many deaths. In 1980, 2.6 million people died of it, and in 1990, 545,000 died; by 2014, global vaccination programs had reduced the number of deaths from measles to 73,000.!
YOU, CYNTHIA, KNOW NOTHING
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The Doctor
oh come on man how did you miss the chance. You know nothing Cynthia Snow!
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JASON D BENDER
Winter is coming! Did you like ep. 1 season 8? I watched it 3 times already!
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JASON D BENDER
During 2000-2017, measles vaccination prevented an estimated 21.1 million deaths making measles vaccine one of the best buys in public health.
https://www.who.int/en/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/measles
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John Owens
No one can possibly know with any degree of accuracy how many deaths were prevented by ANYTHING. Stupid sales talk.
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John Owens
and, thank you, Cynthia. When the vaccine kills more than the disease, it's time to rethink the vaccine.
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Kristina
If vaccines are so effective, then why should those who get them be so worried about those who choose not to?
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John Owens
I keep asking that, and getting defensive BS answers.
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JASON D BENDER
(1) Our safety: because nothing is 100% effective, not even vaccines - though they are close, being in the high 90s. (2) The unvaccinated persons safety: often an innocent and 'otherwise defenseless' child who is subjected to unnecessary risk due to the stupidity of it's parents. (3) Annoyance: We have a natural aversion to stupidity and those who wallow in it.
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John Owens
Number (2) above can also be a stupid parent who stupidly believes the hype regarding the efficacy and safety of vaccines.
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Sheila
2004 was WAY to early to quit the autism link with vaccinations. PLENTY of unvaccinated children now to check it out as to how many of them are coming down with autism. Vaccinations are also not the cause for all blindness either, but there are the cases of when vaccinations cause blindness. Same is true for autism - duh. Yes, you're definitely of that group in your #3 that wallow in your own stupidity.
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LN
It's blatantly obvious it's discrimination and not public health.
If the school is fine with letting him participate in regular school activities, but somehow magically he's not safe to participate in extracurricular activities, then the school should be sued for discrimination.
It's that simple and the intolerance and hatred displayed in all these other comments is likewise bs.
Fact: there are two types of chicken pox - VACCINE STRAIN and 'wild-type'.
People vaccinated with certain vaccines are supposed to stay away from immunocompromised folks for 4-6 weeks (according to some hospitals) during the shedding period. Measles too.
So why isn't the school insisting on quarantining freshly vaccinated students to protect the few immunocompromised students? Or insisting that all vaccinating students get vaccinated for these two and others that might shed, 6 weeks before school begins otherwise immunocompromised students will have to be banned from school for 6 weeks every time a student is vaccinated?
Logistically it's inconvenient, but shouldn't the safety of immunocompromised folks be paramount?
Truth is, banning healthy unvaccinated folks does zilch to protect immunocompromised folks when you've got vaccine-shedders around and vaccinated students who are sick with non-vaccinatable illnesses but are dosed with over-the-counter meds to HIDE that they are sick so they can spread pestilence all over the school and recklessly and selfishly put immunocompromised folks at risk.
Either folks DO care about immunocompromised folks and will ban the OTC-med-dosers and vaccine shedders as well, or they admit they don't care about immunocompromised folks at all and are just trying to push vaccines so they can collect the financial incentives the liability-free manufacturers have provided.
It's pretty darn simple and none of the nasty 'your beliefs vs. my beliefs' arguments are even needed.
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John Owens
I like your reasoning.
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James
If the vaccine shields work so well. Why fear the ones who elect out? Let the vaccinated croak off and be done w/ it..What is the problem? What ever the reason to avoid Corperate / gov subsidized options. Be it Religious, vegetarian-vegan (Non GMO / non-synthetic / non-synthesized), non-genetic cannibalisum or what have you. Injecting the following types of concoctions (or variations there of)... Amphotericin B, Chlortetracyclin, unspecified form of Egg, Gelatin (Bovine), Gelatin (Porcine), Gentamicin Sulfate, Latex, Neomycin, Ovalbumin, Polymyxin B, unsepcified forms of Serum, Fetal Bovine, Sodium taurodeoxycholate, Streptomycin, Thimerosal, Yeast, Formaldehyde, Heavy metals, ect, ect. (many of these ingredients contain hidden / unspecified compounds). And copious other ingredients Into my body to satisfy the weak is NOT an answer to resisting (mostly) man made ailments.
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John Owens
They make up a bunch of stuff about herd immunity. It's okay to not be vaccinated if you have immunodeficiency or some other malady, but it's not okay if you just think it is a bad idea or a great risk. Oh, it's also okay not to be vaccinated if you are a visitor or an immigrant, but not if you live here. Something really screwy going on in people's heads.
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JASON D BENDER
re: "it’s okay to not be vaccinated if you have immunodeficiency " Immunocompromised patients cannot receive live and attenuated virus vaccines. They should be vaccinated.
https://www.pharmacytimes.com/news/guidelines-for-vaccination-of-immunocompromised-individuals-from-the-infectious-diseases-society-of-america-an-in-depth-guide
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Stoodie Baker
Make up stuff...lol Herd immunity is well researched and documented with mountains of peer reviewed evidence. Those people that can't be vaccinated are generally a small number of people and it doesn't affect the herd immunity threshold needed for the population to become immune. You're not "stronger" because you don't get sick and haven't been vaccinated as the OP eludes to with his tirade about GMOs and lack of understanding about how compounds work. If you don't get vaccinated you are still enjoying the effects of herd immunity, if enough people don't get vaccinated then we risk dropping below the HIT and all bets are off. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's made up.
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John Owens
Yeah. Read my explanation above, and learn.
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John Owens
None of you seem to understand the real definition of herd immunity or how it comes to be. It bears almost no resemblance to whatever you seem to believe but cannot articulate.
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John Owens
And YOU think you DO? It's funny that you PROUDLY admit to being part of a herd, but, lest I digress, let me explain it the way it really is. If there is a HERD, and none of the HERD is sick, then it is a healthy HERD, vaccine or NO vaccine. Momma sheeple give their colostrum breast milk to their baby sheeple, and the baby sheeple add Momma-sheeple's immunities to their own systems. In this manner, the HERD gradually becomes immune to more and more sicknesses. When a sheeple from ANOTHER HERD comes in, (picture someone from a far-off "pasture"), a new strain of a disease or a new disease may be introduced, but it does not come from the sheeple within the HERD, but from the sheeple from OUTSIDE the HERD. THIS is what your unscientific hysteria is ignoring.
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John Owens
Herd immunity is not attained through vaccination, but through natural immunities within the herd. I understand more than most on this page.
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JASON D BENDER
In your list of dangerous pathogens... "Islam" ... LOL Tom, I love you, man! (Totally not in a gay way, of course...) That was priceless and I am 'with you' 10,000% on that sentiment as well.,. Glad others also have the steel balls required to express that non-Politically Correct opinion - (may not be PC but it is rationally and intellectually Correct!)
I was once a whiny liberal Islamo-Apologist... Then things started exploding... I realized Islam is a religion of Peace.. "A piece of you over here... and a piece of your over there" (Joke Courtesy of Bill Maher and HBO's "Real Time")
Then I saw a mob of Islamoturds crucifying cats... (I am definitely not kidding, I wish I were!) ... I now have a tattoo "Kill them all and let God sort it out." - a tattoo which I earned during 4 tours of duty in the Corps... LOL... not the Marines, but the USACE (426th Engineer Command.)
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Tom
Vaccines are for wimps. I like to fight off viruses and infections with no help. AIDS, Herpes, Gonorrhea, West Nile Virus, Islam, HIV, Cerebral Palsy, etc. Nom nom nom, I eat it all for breakfast!
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JASON D BENDER
My post expressing appreciation for the hidden humor and the anti-terrorism and anti-fundamentalism subtext in your post is being blocked by the pro-Sharia / anti-American faction of The Monastery... SAD!
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JASON D BENDER
I did > 3 (almost 4 full) tours in the USACE (426th Engineer Command) yet I am to be denied the same freedom of speech that my brethren risked all to protect for them... Many of them made the ultimate sacrifice, but these Sharia types care not, as they fear and hate our Western freedoms!
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JASON D BENDER
OOPS! I can hear it now:
Son, what is your malfunction? We have many barrels of s*** at the latrines needing burning if typing 3 digit numbers is too hard for you, son!
... 416th Engineer Command... not 426th! Do we look like a Civil Affairs Battalion to you, son?!?
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Tom
Some of this crap is so retarded and people are so dug in, you just have no choice to poke fun at them. It's my favorite tactic.
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JASON D BENDER
Agreed. I do not know why stupidity enrages me so... If one thinks about it - the stupider everyone else is, the better. Because you are just that much smarter that everyone else, right?? LOL ;)
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Beth K
I agree with you, Tom.
If these neo-luddites are so anti-science and technology, I would invite them to get off the Internet, remove that life-threatening electrical current from their home or office, and get out their charcoal on stones to send notes.
And don't even think about a car!
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Ben
These pro-plague people (ie: anti-vaxers) need a leper colony to live in, away from the rest of us.
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John Owens
As do all illegal aliens.
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Joe
They can live anywhere they want as long as it's not here.
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JASON D BENDER
depends. If they work hard, assimilate, pay taxes, behave themselves - then they are a benefit to the community and the country... If not, arrest and deport or shoot them, i dont care...
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CW
Why is every with the argument of depends on illegals never stops to think? if they are illegal, 1 the can not pay taxes because they have no SSIN or even a CIN. If they have one it is stolen. They have already commited a felony by illegally entering the country. And never bother to assimilate, that is why teaches school teach english and spainish instead of just england.
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JASON D BENDER
Hot females who are DTF older white guys should be allowed to stay!
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John Owens
but only if they are vaccinated?
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John Owens
I say this because the vaxxers don't worry about diseases brought into the country by illegal aliens. It's like that part of their gray matter that thinks unvaccinated citizens are hazards to public health does NOT think illegal aliens could possibly be a danger under any circumstances. Ridiculous.
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Alicia
The "Religion Card" has become about as over-used as the "Race Card". Enough already. Too many bullshit lawsuits clogging up the Courts.
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JASON D BENDER
AGREED !00%!!
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Laurie Cleveland
Absolutely his rights were trampled over. I refused to allow my daughter who is now 32 not to get it as it was proven at that time there were longterm side effects of the vaccine which getting chicken pox didn't have, plus, you needed to vaccinate after a certain amount of years. I was forced to get a second Td vax after receiving one a year before for a travel nurse position My arm swelled up and was hard, red and painful for over a month. Turns out it had 40% formaldehyde in it and it could have killed me as I am allergic to it. What people don't know is that pharmaceutical companies don't have to run the same trials, etc. as they do for regular drugs. They over-vaccinate kids. It's a money scam and because anything goes, they are getting away with it. Polio vaccine has cancer cells in it. This is one reason why the rates of cancer went up.
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JASON D BENDER
Every single thing that you just said was either: wrong, really wrong, incredibly stupid or an outright lie. We are talking about MEASLES which kills a % of all who come down with it... NOT chicken pox, you fool. There is not a single injectable med, nor has there ever been one, that contains even 4% formaldehyde - 40% is as dumb as the flat earthers... (Oops... I lied... Cadavers are injected with 37% formaldehyde during the embalming process! LOL) Polio vax contains no cancer cells and has saved millions of lives you Luddite! You were not a licensed or registered nurse - as a nurse would have enough medical knowledge to make up better lies than you do! Vaccinations, with the possible exception of the recent HPV vax are NOT about money - it is about saving lives. The share of big pharma's profits that derive from vax products is MINIMAL!
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Ruth Williams
People with compromised immune systems may risk secondary problems. Death perhaps. However hear this without calling others liars. There are 24 varieties of measles. 4 genotypes in the US. I am not immune to any of them despite me being immunized. Contracting measles, and having a negative blood titer.
It is not a perfect science CDC board who recommends vaccine schedule owns vaccination patents and stands to gain the most profit from the forced vaccines.
Totally against the mandates. We as tax payers spend MILLIONS of dollars annually to vaccine injured children. Some life long damage and death. Are these lives worth sacraficing?
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Educated Individual
Actually, the article is about the varicella vaccine, which is a vaccine for chicken pox. Read the article before you go calling other people morons. Then again, it seems from all of your comments that you have a selective reading comprehension issue. Maybe it's brain damage from the many vaccines for which you argue - many of which have been created in the past several years. Check the vaccination schedule for the early 1980s against the vaccine schedule required today. You'll see that there are approximately 40 vaccine doses now required before the child reaches kindergarten....there were a fraction of those 20 or 30 years ago. Do your research before you judge everyone else - it would be a far better use of your time.
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JASON D BENDER
Damnit Dude, I am an engineer not a doctor!
OOOPS!
My bad!
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JASON D BENDER
"What people don’t know is that pharmaceutical companies don’t have to run the same trials, etc. as they do for regular drugs." - LIES... ALL LIES... For a new vaccine, oh hell yes the do have extensive double-blind multi-phase trials... Most of the important vaccines have been around longer that I have, and I am 52... the trials are long over and we have something better than trials now... DECADES nay GENERATIONS of experience!
You said: "I refused to allow my daughter who is now 32 not to get it" - so you are saying you made sure she WAS vaccinated? That was the right thing to do but it does not mesh with the remainder of your (utterly failed) argument!
So, wrong, really wrong, lies AND incoherence AND non-sequiturs... You rank right up there with perpetual motion machine hawkers, flat earthers, UFO anal probe memory types and their ilk!
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Ruth Williams
Please stop your Trumponion or trolliovellan subtext. It's dismissive and disingenuous. Guess what. Your wrong. It's not all lies. ? Your blinders and unwillingness to learn is dangerous.
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JASON D BENDER
To make up lies to support your retarded anti-vax fantasies - and possibly help convince a weak minded person to make a choice that later will cost them their life (or end the life of some other innocent person) simply so as to win an argument .. One you are pulling out of your proverbial As$ and creating out of whole-cloth - is far beyond MIND BOGGLINGLY EVIL - you are nothing short of a MONSTER! The depths of your sickness and depravity is not one whit less than a murderous pedophile whose killing of children is motivated by their disgusting and twisted perversions...
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JASON D BENDER
Bet you are a Trumpster... LOL... SAD!!
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Nolan
So that is either a bunch of lies or you are completely ignorant
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Janice A Ellery
The greater good out weighs here. Besides that, the Catholic church does not have a stand against vaccinations. This is their own idea.
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JASON D BENDER
Agreed! I think Ambassador Spock said it best when, just before transferring his Katra to Dr. James McCoy, he stated: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs (or desires) of the few, or the one!"
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JASON D BENDER
Ambassador Spock said it best when he said to Admiral James T. Kirk and Dr. Leonard "Bones" McCoy just before transferring his Katra to McCoy "The needs of the many outweigh the needs (or wants) of the few, or the one."
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The Doctor
Damn it Jim....erhm uhm Jason!. I used that reference in the last article ULC had about vaccinations.
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JASON D BENDER
Is it not logical to assume that often brilliant minds will think alike?
PS: I have your screen name here... Is it your real christian name given by your biologic mother at the Terran medical facility when & where she gave birth to the young human we all know and love today as T'Keren??
Or, Is T'Keren a nom de plume chosen by you? If I may speculate - I am guessing chosen because of how perfectly it fits the phonetic structure for Romulan names... a nom de plum born out of your (our) love of the Romulan characters and archetypes in the larger Trek universe that we both obviously love? (Enough so, in my case it really did delay the loss of my virginity in comically stereotypical fashion... lol... though, if I might be allowed the tiny indulgence of a sliver of braggadocio about events transpiring some number of decades ago, fortunately for me, in the 33 standard earth years that have passed since that rather brief J card punching event (lol) I have had opportunity to more than make up for my unfortunate delayed start... or, at least that is what I tell myself at night when the darkness comes.. lol
I finally guess the latter as having the name T'Keren would be one step more cool than our universe permits life to be for us nerds who dare try and understand that universe!!
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JASON D BENDER
(Insert whatever the Romulan equivalent of "Quapla!" is...) Well T'Keren, I just spent about 45 min pounding out a cool and funny response to you... It better not be lost in the ether or i am gonna loose my proverbial fecal matter...lol
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JASON D BENDER
My knowledge of the Romulan languages is insufficient, and I cannot deduce whether T'Keren is a female name or a male name. No offense intended if I got the gender wrong in my reply to you the other day... Text messages being so sterile, such mistakes are easy to make! May you live long and prosper! Jason & Fischer Bender
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The Doctor
lol actually jason T'Keren Valmaz is the name of a hybrid being from a game I used to play. T'Keren was a wizard that to end a war with demon kind bound the lord of demons valmaz into himself, thought his intent was to bind him to an object but best laid plans and all that.
My actual name is Skylord. yes really. I basically use it because I find it somehow an appropriate and bemusing name to use when arguing with evangelicals and zealots on these forums.
Which is why sometimes tongue in cheek I actually role play that character while making my replies to some here. As if to say hey you can speak as if you know the will of your god, I will speak as the voice of the lord of demonkind.
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John Owens
Well,, now I think we all see how realistic these two's understanding really is. I mean, after all, discerning minds everywhere have these conversations.
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JASON D BENDER
Actually, John, the employment of a high degree of complexity and imagination within the context of game-play is one of the hallmark signs of substantially higher than normal intelligence.
Simple minds have simple games (I bet you and your ilk like team sports that revolve around a ball or leather bag of air... lol... Neanderthal!) Us, not so much, as much more complex minds require something far more complex games than your silly ball-in-a-hole pastimes!
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John Owens
Jason, Jason, so full of your ignorant self. For distraction I do SUDOKU. I used to do crosswords and online Scrabble but I just became too good at them and lost interest. What GAME salesman told you that playing games is a sign of high intelligence? Don't you know that is a sales pitch? Like, liberals are more educated? That is nothing but sales talk.
I would agree about the leather bags full of air, though. The same for golf. Tennis is a little more interesting, but not that much. Racing is the same.
If you want to develop your brain, learn some new languages. If not, keep pushing the standard liberal ignorant talking points.
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John Owens
The Catholic church is not against vaccinations per sé. It is against abortion and cannibalism. That is the issue here.
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JASON D BENDER
Non sequitur alert!
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John Owens
Not at all, Jason. If any vaccine is suspected to contain fetal tissue or by-products, then the church's doctrine regarding abortion and cannibalism definitely apply. Since vaccines do not normally come with a guaranteed list of ingredients for the person being vaccinated to peruse, and some have used by-products from fetuses, that is a legitimate concern to Catholics, as cannibalism should be to all humans.
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Nolan
So it doesn't matter if the vaccine doesn't contain fetal tissue or by products (which this doesn't), as long as some backwards-thinking goon like you suspects it, that is all the motivation you need. All vaccine ingredients can be checked. You and your like are determined to drag us back into the dark ages where your religion and faith in a imaginary deity might gain some traction again.
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Stoodie Baker
How, exactly, do you equate an injection to cannibalism anyway? Cannibalism is the ingesting of the flesh of another member of your species. Even if there were fetal cells in this vaccine, these two actions are not equatable in the slightest. I'm assuming, by this logic, that Catholics should also be refusing blood transfusions and donor organs for transplant? if injecting a few cells is cannibalism then surely a whole organ must be, what? super cannibalism?
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John Owens
To "You love no God," Why do you think you are so superior that you should call ME a backwards-thinking goon? Can you not see that you are being ignorant and showing your bigotry by saying that? I don't even know from whence your paranoid dark ages fantasy arises, but it certainly has nothing whatsoever to do with me or anyone else on this blog.
To Stoodie, if a human is killed and their body used to make an injection, it is an of cannibalism to probably over 80% of the world's population. If a person willingly DONATES blood or an organ, it is not the same as having your life taken and having that robbed from you. Not the same at all. Not to a person who views a human as a special life form in the grand scheme of the cosmos.
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Norma Battes
" ...if a human is killed and their body used to make an injection, it is an of cannibalism to probably over 80% of the world’s population. If a person willingly DONATES blood or an organ, it is not the same as having your life taken and having that robbed from you... " Mr. Owens, are you saying fetus are being knowingly killed to harvest tissue for vaccinations?
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John Owens
I know they are being killed, and I am sure their tiny corpses are being used for something besides dog food and cosmetics. Beyond that, I don't know, but if a person suspects it, that is reason enough to avoid it.
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JASON D BENDER
Your suspicions are nothing short of insane!
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John Owens
Your insanity is nothing short of insane, and very dishonest at the same time. I'm not even Catholic. I'm just telling you why a Catholic might not want to take a vaccine.
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JASON D BENDER
John, as a backslidden Catholic - I can tell you with full assurance that you know about as much (or less) about modern Catholicism (modern meaning post Vatican II) - and have as much insight into our faith - as you do about everything else... Which, unfortunately for you, ain't much! LOL! ;)
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John Owens
...but so much more than you, about anything. Thanks.
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John Owens
The article STIPULATES that fetal cells are in the vaccine.
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The Doctor
The blood of christ could be argued to be a form of spiritual vaccination and the body of christ is suerly spiritual cannibalism.
That is exactly how those soccer players lost in the mountains justified eating the remains of the dead as their bit of body for communion.
Fun fact about half of everyone living has a genetic resistance to prion disorder. This could only come about if a meaningful number of our ancestors practiced cannibalism as a regular part of their diet. Most likely during the last ice age.
Then again since you dont believe the Earth is even that old, what with being a creationist that thinks Noahs arc is real well you keep being that ignorant birther loon we all love to laugh at here.
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John Owens
I don't know how you make the quantum leap in lack of logic to say it is ignorant to doubt Obama's original place of birth. It is not ignorant at all. What IS ignorant, is thinking by calling it ignorant that I should be convinced. That is REALLY ignorant.
I have never once said how old I think the Earth is. Not once. You invented that. You IGNORANTLY say what you THINK I believe, as you IGNORANTLY spoke of the mythical flat Earth or JFK shooters or bombs in the towers. You must be kin to Don. That would make you, in your own words, ilk.
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JASON D BENDER
Catholics and cannibalism?!? Have you forgotten transubstantiation?
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Marta A Holness
Do you ever have anything positive to say? I read most of your comments and there is only attacks and negativity spoken. There is something good in both methods. We all suffer for the wrong decisions and take joy for the right ones. In everything there is good and evil. Christianity should teach us that good will eventually win.
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JASON D BENDER
Anti vaxers who lie is support of their position deserve to be called out. I say plenty positive in response to those who share enlightened scientific facts
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John Owens
Enlightened scientific facts which agree with your heavily propagandized dogma, yes.
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JASON D BENDER
What can I say? Not my fault facts have a Liberal bias!
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John Owens
Liberals simply reject any info which does not agree with their bias.
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JASON D BENDER
John, LOL ... If there is any group lacking in self awareness and cherry picking their "facts" it is the modern Tea Party / Trumpster / Social Conservative / republican. LOL Project much? LOL
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John Owens
Keep deluding yourself.
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John Owens
Conservatives aren't the ones trying to enforce their philosophies through Fascism.
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JASON D BENDER
John barfed up: "Conservatives aren’t the ones trying to enforce their philosophies through Fascism."
LOL OMFG... That is precisely what y'all Trumpster Turdettes are doing! LOL... As I said... ZERO self-awareness! Textbook neocon self delusional bubble!
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JASON D BENDER
John Boy Says: "Keep deluding yourself." LOL ... That's your job, Herr. Owen!
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JASON D BENDER
John Says: "Conservatives aren’t the ones trying to enforce their philosophies through Fascism.: Ummm.... Yeah they are! LOL. That's precisely what y'all are doing. That's your party's raison d'etre!! As I said... ZERO self awareness! Textbook!
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John Owens
Examples, Jason? Liberals are the only people trying to outlaw free speech. You just say anything that pops into your propaganda-addled brain, don't you? Try some of that Prevagen stuff. Your writings suggest cognitive functions that are dictated by whatever liberal fad happens to be the crap of the day.
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Rev. Shane Lowrey
No, it isn't. Pope Francis made the most dirrect comment on this point in answer to a question received....
https://vaxopedia.org/tag/pope-francis/
In fact, no Pope has spoken against vaccines, not even Pope Pius VII. Regardless of the slanders about him.
And, no talk about abortion nor cannibalism involved.
You do know cannibalism is permissible by Catholics under life and death circumstances, providing the 'donor' died of natural causes? The story of a certain Ugandian soccer team crashlanded in the Andes includes the Popes absolution of any sin considering the circumstances. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alive:_The_Story_of_the_Andes_Survivors
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Joe
Shouldn't having strong convictions and being willing to make sacrifices for them go together?
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JASON D BENDER
You are so on point! ... "being willing to make sacrifices for them" ('Them' being their strong convictions) is very biblical, is it not?
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Rev Marti
I think Rev. Stanley is on point. If this young man has religious beliefs that won’t allow him to be vaccinated, then it is a choice to loose the right to play basketball and risk the health of others. Extra curricular activities are a privilege for those who follow the rules. You can’t have it both ways.
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JASON D BENDER
you said "loose the right to play basketball" you meant to say "loose the privilege to play basketball" Peace, Jason
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Skye Riversong
nope, I think he meant lose, not loose.
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JASON D BENDER
You are incorrect to say "Nope" to me... As we BOTH are correct with our main points: he meant “lose the privilege to play basketball” when he wrote “loose the right to play basketball” ... So while we BOTH are right, I an more right than you! J/K ... LOL ;) Peace, Jason B.
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JASON D BENDER
Spelling is a minor point at best... My point spoke to the fundamental question at hand... privilege or rights?
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Miranda Allison Young
Any parents who insist that they love their children are proving that they really do not by refusing to vaccinate them. Vaccinations save lives and this was proven many years ago. Unvaccinated children can and do infect other people. This is especially dangerous for the very young, the very elderly, pregnant women, and those people with compromised immune systems. Unvaccinated children who contract the diseases can suffer in many ways due to the side effects of them. Measles is not just a benign childhood disease. It can cause a lot of problems, one of which is tetanus. Very recently, I read an article about a child who suffered terribly because of that. Here is a link to that: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/tetanus/diagnosis-treatment/drc-20351631 Those who have not been vaccinated against chicken pox can later in life suffer from shingles. Those who will not vaccinate their children are taking those children's lives in their hands.
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JASON D BENDER
Sanity and smarts - all in one articulate and concise package with references, too! AWESOME!!
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Sheila
Vaccinations haven't been around for long. The parents refusing them at least are technically doing no worse than parents did prior to existence of vaccinations. They can care and love their children just as much as parents did prior to vaccinations. There were ways of treating disease back then, too. I'd definitely do nosodes though. An adult recently began to get tetanus from a rusty nail (not like that's they only thing you can get tetanus from) and later jaw hurt and hand all puffy - took a nosode, and symptoms of her body getting the disease out and then it all went away. Nosodes work. Tetanus shots cause my child seizures - so why wouldn't I use a nosode instead? And, you act as though there's no such think as the Vaccination Injury Fund. It exists because of injuries and death that occur due to vaccinations.
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JASON D BENDER
everything you just said is stupid. Prior to vaccinations, millions died. The ways they had to treat these diseases back then were largely ineffective. Your tetanus anecdote is meaningless... EVEN HOMEOPATHS SAY THE NOSODE MUST BE TAKEN BEFORE THE EXPOSURE TO TETANUS! Even homeopaths do not claim a nosode will treat an infection,!
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Sheila
My tetanus story came last month from a homeopath who is also an ND. She's the one who used the Nosode for tetanus on herself AFTER it happened & AFTER symptoms. Not everything used back then before vaccinations was ineffective - we have the luxury of looking back at what was effective. I cured my kid of pneumonia after it became worse when the full round antibiotics didn't work - based on what was effectively used for pneumonia PRIOR to antibiotics. So "largely ineffective" doesn't mean "all of it was ineffective." Find the effective stuff! Vaccinations are NOT safe - that's why there's a Vaccination Injury Fund. But, I'm not going to claim people who vaccinate their kids do it because they don't love them, because if they loved them they'd review history for what really works - finding the safe effective stuff; and then spending money on doing it the "hard" way - rather than using some cheap or free "vaccination" that can severely injure a child for life, like it did for both of my kids. No, I'm not going to claim such parents don't love their children. It'd be great if you'd stop claiming that parents who are gaining the ability to think objectively, weigh evidence, and make reasoned judgments to NOT vaccinate their children are somehow unloving.There is no excuse to not doubt the efficacy of vaccines. Really there isn't.
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JASON D BENDER
I long ago stopped arguing with flat earthers. today, I do likewise to the anti vaxers!
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JASON D BENDER
Lies! Previously you said MMR vax caused the alleged seizure disorder!!
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Sheila
Not lies. What I said was truth. The MMR vaccination did cause the seizure disorder - epilepsy. Because of that, the tetanus shot now causes seizures. It is a seizure trigger - along with a whole bunch of other things. I never said a tetanus shot actually caused the epilepsy - epilepsy was caused by the MMR shot. The rest of what all I said is also true. BTW, I'm sure the tetanus shot most certainly has caused epilepsy for someone. But, for my son, the MMR shot caused that. And, so now other vaccinations cause seizures because they are now seizure triggers because of the epilepsy. Get it?
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Rev. Shane Lowrey
The smallpox vaccine was released in 1796. As far as I know, HPV vaccine is the most resent. in 2006. (Note, it only covers 2 to 9 of the HPV virii people have and transmit. It does protect against the most common types that cause cancer, cervical, penile, and anal.) Chicken pox vaccine was released in the US in 1995, earlier in Japan. (Remember? This article is about chicken pox, not measles.) Measles vaccine was released in 1963. Tetanus vaccine was released in 1924, an improved vaccine in 1938. (That's 95 years by my calculations.)
We have over a two hundred years of experience with vaccines. Individual vaccines histories vary with release dates.
And the way we, the western world, treated these diseases was quarantine. You could be killed for leaving your house. Deffinately jailed.
You might be happy to know that small pox, the first ever vaccine released, has been wiped from the face of the Earth. Except stockpiles maintained by the USA and Russia. It would be better to distroy them all, but, that won't happen. Go figure.
So, just get your tetanus booster and leave the nosodes' to the gullible.
BTW, Note to Miranda. Tetanus is a non-communicable disease that has no bearing on any actually communicable diseases. Tetanus is never a side effect of another disease.
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JASON D BENDER
Rev Lowrey, Thank you for bringing some intellect, class, facts and good data into this discussion! We are all smarter and better off for having read your writing. Peace! Jason & Fischer Bender
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Ruth Williams
We have never eradicated measles. The public push back is misinformed. There have been zero safety studies in 30 years. I've been immunized for MMR. Contracted wild measles at 23. Blood titer showed no immunity at 25. Another mms at 29. It's not an exact science and can be fatal to recently immunized children with febrial seizures. There are 24 varieties of measles, 4 genotypes in the US. Pharmaceuticals offer bonuses of $400 per child in a health care practice if they immunize a given percentage. That's a lot of cash incentive for Dr's.
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JASON D BENDER
post peer reviewed references from a respected source or what you just said is total crock
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Ruth Williams
Google Kennedy and lawsuit. He won a lawsuit. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HQyPy_Bg_TLpCPDKq4XeovFbKJ2rQeLC/view?usp=drivesdk
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Ruth Williams
All you have to do is a tiny bit of research on pharm websites CDC or VAERS. https://physiciansforinformedconsent.org/about/
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JASON D BENDER
more crapola! 2017/10/12 BY THE ORIGINAL SKEPTICAL RAPTOR Physicians for Informed Consent – another radical anti-vaccine group Sharing is caring! There are a bunch of anti-vaccine groups out there who invent legitimate sounding names in an attempt to appear to be rational, positive organizations. They’re mostly neither rational nor positive. A new one (at least for me) is a group called the “Physicians for Informed Consent,” whose “vision is to live in a society free of mandatory vaccination laws.”
Although there are individuals who are pro-vaccine but are opposed to mandatory vaccination, mostly on a politically libertarian point of view, almost all of these groups, especially in California, are specifically anti-vaccine. In fact, “informed consent” is one of those veiled code-words used by the anti-vaccine world, especially in the fight against SB277, California’s recently enacted law that removes personal belief exemptions to vaccinations for school age children.
This article is going to examine some of the issues around “informed consent,” then look at a recent statement from the radical anti-vaccine gourd, Physicians for Informed Consent. here: https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/physicians-for-informed-consent-another-radical-anti-vaccine-group/
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JASON D BENDER
debunked here: https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/physicians-for-informed-consent-another-radical-anti-vaccine-group/
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Sheila
Yeah, never mind that Rev. Ruth really DID get immunized for MMR, DID contract wild measles at 23, blood titer DID show no immunity at 25 - because she herself is NOT a respected source on her own medical history and the doctors who documented her medical history didn't have the documentation peer reviewed; that's what makes her story a total crock. That's right - didn't happen. So in fact that's the CURE for anything and everything. The absolute magic eraser: just make sure something does NOT get peer reviewed references from a respected source, and you are ALL BETTER because then somehow it magically NEVER happened. I don't know if you could have written a better Fairy Tale, Jason D Bender!
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JASON D BENDER
Yawn... Local bag lady is trying to insult me lol... Silly person, just call me fat, laugh about my bald spot, remind me nobody really likes me or wants to have sex with me, call me a social retard and point out that my hygiene is (sniff sniff) insufficient, that my degrees are worthless because i have done nothing with them, that i am poor compared to the rest of my family, bla bla bla...
there u go... u win! I am officially bored and no longer care.
who cares? not me... My cat loves me and I have p0rnography to go watch on the internet .
lol
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Sheila
So this is your newest fairy tale? Sorry, your one about the magic eraser is more clever.
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JASON D BENDER
Magic Erasers? COOL! I hear you can get real high by sniffing them...
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Sheila
So you said, "Magic Erasers? COOL! I hear you can get real high by sniffing them…"
You do realize that explains a whole lot about you right?
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JASON D BENDER
Sniff Sniff... Nah... your bait is stale. I care not what insult you may say.
Come to think on it,, I did a way better job of insulting myself than you seen to be capable of (like was the case with every thing else we have discussed) your so called intellectual faculties just fall far short... Continued arguing is pointless, and not very sporting of me and extremely boring for me...
Don't feel bad... It is less your fault than it is the poor state of public education in the USA today...
PS: Homophobic remarks - like your use of the term "fairy tale" makes you look bad by highlighting the inherent bigotry of you and your fellow trumpsters... doesn't bother me... I don't even get borthered when called a 'fa**ot'
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Sheila
Thank you! That's good solid info that otherwise doesn't get reported. My kid showed no immunity for the chicken pox shot - it was like a year or 2 after the shot. And, months or a year after he had gotten chicken pox despite the fact that he'd gotten the shot. I also know doctors get threatened by "powers that be" if they allow parents to have a choice about shots. I know because I know the doctor, and he's not one to lie about something like that - or even lie about anything.
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Dr.Rev. Annie
Religious people are perfectly within their right not to vaccinate but then so is the state (or county or school) within their rights to refuse to allow that person to potentially infect others with the disease they could be carrying or could pass on to someone else. The anti-vaxxers don't have a right to endanger others, just themselves.
Personally, I don't believe the parents should be allowed to endanger their own children this way either. But if they do, then no one else's child should have to suffer.
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JASON D BENDER
Agreed 100%
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Rev. Shane Lowrey
No, they are not 'within their right not to vaccinate." There are any number of reasons people can not be vaccinated, for example, they're too young, they are transplant recipients, they have one of any number of immune suppressing diseases or syndromes, allergies. "I don't want to," however you try to explain it away, is NOT one of them.
A few things first.1) Vaccines maim and kill people, but, they do so at rates far below the diseases they are meant to protect against. An insurance fund has been set up through the government to help pay for the expenses of these extremely rare occations. (This also helps prevent vaccine makers from being forced out of the market we so desperately need.) 2)Vaccines are not 100% percent effective. Some take multiple 'shots' to offer protection. Many require booster shots throughout peoples lives. And, some people don't develope complete resistance even when they adher to the proper dosages and schedules.I wonder how many adults are up to date with their booster shots? 3) it has been PROVEN vaccines do NOT cause autism. No, never. 4)Most outbreaks in the US have been caused by US citizen traveling abroad. Often, unvaccinated US citizens. Several have been caused by tourists coming to the States, with approved visas.
As mentioned before, any number of people can not be vaccinated. For their health and for the communities health, A large percentage of vaccinated and immune people are needed to stop the spread of these diseases before those unprotected get ill, and, possibly maimed or killed. That is "herd immunity." The percentages of the population immunized varies by disease. Currently, the US is in the midst of a measles epidemic. Percentage nessessary for herd immunity to measles is greater than 95%.
No one has the right to expose their communities to these dangers. I say, bring back quarantines. It's not just for ebola anymore. We need to protect ourselfs from stupid, self rightous idiots.
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Sheila
You said, "Vaccines maim and kill people, but, they do so at rates far below the diseases they are meant to protect against." Yeah, that's what I used to believe, too - starting when I was 7 years old (1977), I understood that. Now I know better. It's awfully bad that you don't know better. And, that's the crux of it - "Do vaccines maim and kill people at rates far below the diseases they are meant to protect against?" The real answer is, no they do not. If that were true of vaccinations, then they could abundantly compensate the maimed and get the dead people's survivors well compensated. They do not do that, because it is NOT at rates far below the diseases they are meant to protect against.
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JASON D BENDER
omg your logic is so screwed up. Measles vaccine has saved 21 million lives in the last 20 years alone! The measles vaccine has not killed over 21 million people in the last 20 years! 78,000 people saved from polio per year! The polio vax has not paralyzed > 78,000 people per year! THAT'S WHAT "“Do vaccines maim and kill people at rates far below the diseases they are meant to protect against?” MEANS!!!
But, those lives being saved does not generate any cash for a fund... And, the fact that the fund is not as big as you like - by your logic (or lack thereof) - means: “vaccines maim and kill people at rates above the diseases they are meant to protect against?” - OMG YOU DO NOT EVEN MAKE THE SLIGHTEST BIT OF SENSE! Your brain does not process information properly... The word some people would use is "uneducated" others might say "crazy."
And, this compensation account is adequately funded... The problem is: you whack anti-vaxxers think all kinds of unrelated problems are caused by vaccines, problems that are really not caused by vaccines... so the fund doesn't pay for things you think it should or want it to... THAT is the real reason why you think the fund inadequate. Well, like on everything else so far, you are wrong! Your opinions and beliefs have been thoroughly disproven and debunked. Like the flat earthers - you cannot discern between high value data and junk data. so the present value of your two cents has been depreciated to an infinitesimally small amount, effectively zero.
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Sheila
You said, "Measles vaccine has saved 21 million lives in the last 20 years alone!" I'm going to guess that's based on stats that guess at how many lives would have been lost based on previous data, right? But, you don't give an account for how many lives were maimed or killed due to the measles vaccine. Without that data comparison, your data is skewed.
Here's what, "...vaccines maim and kill people at rates far below the diseases they are meant to protect against.." means: It means that the rate is so low, it's more cost effective to completely compensate the people maimed or the survivors of the people killed, than it costs to let people get the disease. Duh! I knew that as a 1st grader. That's where the definition of "far below" comes in. What's your definition of "far below" - 51% vs. 49%? What's your logic in determining your definition of "far below"? Is it better logic than that of a 1st grader? And, if you think it's ok to NOT come up with a cash fund to compensate those injured by vaccinations - because of all the money saved by saving people who otherwise would have injured by the disease - then your thought patterns are simply unethical. If it's that important, then the public has a duty to pay for the consequences, or it's obvious that there's something shady going on. Duh! In other words, a system MUST be set up to generate cash for a fund - period. Just because it wasn't done, most certainly doesn't make ethical - it's unethical not to do it.
If the compensation account was adequately funded, it wouldn't take 2 years to get a Sirva case compensated. It takes 2 years to get a Sirva case compensated - so it's NOT adequately funded. You stated there's people who, "...think all kinds of unrelated problems are caused by vaccines, problems that are really not caused by vaccines…" Well, duh - that is going to happen. But interesting how you leave out the cases that ARE so obviously caused by a vaccine that do NOT get compensated. You are extremely one-sided. When it comes down to it, it's about the money. Money represents the viability if a particular something is sustainable. And skewing the equation to allow a huge number of people to suffer being maimed without compensation is simply wrong - unethical. If it was treated ethically, doctors and other medical personnel would be mandated to report when vaccination injury is suspected. As it is, so many people don't even know the Vaccination Injury Fund existed, let alone that the statute of limitations is a mere 3 years, and just 2 years if death occurred. Extremely unethical to do to an uneducated public, unless it were mandated that doctors and other medical personnel report suspected injuries. Five percent of seizures that happen with an MMR shot is actually that the shot caused epilepsy (https://physiciansforinformedconsent.org/news/physicians-informed-consent-finds-mmr-vaccine-causes-seizures-5700-u-s-children-annually/) . That's what happened to my kid - and guess what? No compensation. And that happened to me - someone so educated that I understood the supposed safety of vaccinations as a 1st-grader in relation to economics. You've no idea the injuries occurring with vaccinations that the public is getting by with NOT compensating. That's the REAL reason that the fund is inadequately funded - because it's dodging the cases of injury. What a cute way to get by with NOT paying out. It's the Vaccination Injury Fund being under utilized due to lack of mandatory reporting that has caused people to not vaccinate. If Vaccination Injury Fund had been fully utilized and greatly due to mandatory reporting, we wouldn't be in this mess. If it'd been fully funded, the stats would be clear. You just think you know what those stats would supposedly be. And just food for thought - if the polio virus is really dead-dead-dead as they claim in the vaccine, then why isn't being given in simple and safe saline solution?
To get to the truth, all these skewing games need to stop - period. Meanwhile, I know the truth based on experience (& absurdity of the data and lack thereof that is perpetrated). It's awfully too bad that you don't know.
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JASON D BENDER
Sheila, it has already been established that "facts" and opinions from you have near zero reliability or credibility. You are the one who is skewed and the awesome thing is, I do not have to prove jack shyte - as on my side is >90% of the scientists, >90% of the doctors, the majority of the literature on the subject, the consensus of the military, political, educational and business communities! WE are a hegemon... You are a crackpot. Think your crackpot thoughts, spew your lies and misinformation, no matter how dumb the things you and your ilk place your faith in - it matters not one whit to me or my life.
Enjoy the left side of the bell jar!!
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Beth K
Sheila,
The odds of a vaccine injury is millions to one. Yeah, it sux if you're that one, but the vaccine compensation fund is designed to at least compensate you for injuries, disabilities or your relatives for your death.
But, since you like your freedom, maybe we should give it to you - so long as you're willing to take responsibility.
We're technologically very close to where we can identify the genes in the virus a given person has to the person who they got it from. We can currently only find someone who is within 3 passes of the virus. When it gets just a little better, people can come to you, with their deaf, blind, infertile, paralyzed, or dead children or other relatives or clients (an attorney could do this for someone too), and you could pay these people for the injuries which you (or your offspring) gave them through recklessness or depraved indifference. This could come to several millions of dollars for lifetime care of one individual. As each person with measles, for instance, can on average infect 30 others, this could add up to 100s of millions of dollars, quickly.
If someone dies due to depraved indifference in their reckless act, it could be considered manslaughter, with prison time - or possibly murder since it was from violation of the laws. Or, if someone is injured with it, even mildly, it is assault - with jail or prison time.
So, do you have funds or insurance to pay for these injuries which could be proven in court to have been a result of your actions or inactions? How about spending jail time for some things that are proven to have caused specific injuries to specific others? You are held responsible if you drive or own a car that injures someone. If you injure someone in your occupation, you're required to take responsibility. Why not from your refusal to vaccinate?
You do have another option: Take yourself and your children out of society. Never appear in public. Never use any public facilities. Homeschool your children. If you or they get sick, get a doctor to make a housecall - with full knowledge that (s)he may be coming into contact with infectious agents, and can take appropriate precautions.
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John Owens
Your figures are ridiculous. There is not any accurate means of measuring how many lives have been saved. Just because people don't die, doesn't mean the vaccine saved them! My children might have been immune to measles, through their mother's dna and mine and her colostrum milk. The same could be true of billions, and you want to credit a vaccine, about which you understand little and know less.
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Sheila
For beth_KCZ
Wow - you sure are anti-Vaccination Injury Fund. I'm going to be blunt and call you a jerk. Seriously, you're a jerk.
So for people who survive vaccination injury and it's abundantly apparent that further vaccinations will further harm or kill a person, your attitude is "Screw you! Die, you vaccination weakling!"
And, you've no idea how frequent vaccinations injuries are, because you've know idea what percentage of injuries exist that are NOT getting reported.
As for the people poorly taking care of their terrain so they are ending up sick - that's their responsibility, not the person whom they got the germ from. The germ doesn't cause you to be sick, anymore than being out in the cold causes a person to be sick. Germs are the result of disease. In other words, if you've some disease going on in your body that germs are going to gravitate to, that's the cause - and germs are the result. "A person's mere presence in a room can add 37 million bacteria to the air every hour" - so why aren't we all dead if germs are so harmful? (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120328172255.htm)
"In the mid-1800’s, Louis Pasteur developed the “germ theory,” the idea that germs are the cause of all disease. He then developed pasteurization, a way to heat food and kill microbes that may cause illness or disease. But, pasteurization also kills beneficial bacteria and enzymes.
His contemporary, Antione Beauchamp, came out with an opposite theory called the “terrain theory.” This theory highlights that healthy food, hygiene, and lifestyle affect a person’s terrain or immune system.
Interestingly, it’s widely accepted that Pasteur said on his deathbed that Beauchamp was right, “it’s all about the terrain.” However, the germ theory flourished and is still accepted today. It is what our modern medical system, and vaccines, are based on." https://www.thefamilythathealstogether.com/tag/kids-health/
"What makes the germ theory so dangerous is that it seems so obviously true. But it is true only secondarily. Bechamp said "There is no doctrine so false that it does not contain some particle of truth. It is thus with microbian doctrines." Béchamp discovered Microzyma (now known as micro-organisms) minute or small ferment bodies--the basic structure of cell life; and that germs definitely are the result, not the cause of disease. Through his experiments he showed that the vital characteristics of cells and germs are determined by the soil in which their microzyma feed, grow and multiply in the human body. Both the normal cell and germ have constructive work to do. The cells organize tissues and organs in the human body. Germs cleanse the human system and free it from accumulations of pathogenic and mucoid matter. We are constantly breathing in some 14,000 germs and bacteria per hour. If germs are so harmful, why aren't we all dead?" http://www.laleva.org/eng/2004/05/louis_pasteur_vs_antoine_bchamp_and_the_germ_theory_of_disease_causation_1.html .
So, vaccination injury is something that is forced on a person, and "germ injury" is due to poor terrain in the person who got sick. Also, superbugs aren't the fault of the person who passes it on - it's the fault of overuse of anti-biotics that a person can blame the doctor who prescribed them or the companies making them.
HUGE difference getting compensated for vaccination injury vs. blaming the person you got germs from for making you sick. And, you're a jerk to try covering that up.
But, to be fair, there are more kinds than your sort. Typhoid Mary murdered people whether she new it or not.
But you would murder people with vaccinations. People who obviously will be harmed - you'd force them have further harm and even death by forcing further vaccinations on those specific people. You're no better than Typhoid Mary.
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Sheila
For Jason D Bender: What a high compliment! Thank you! If by "the left side of the bell jar" you mean that I'm a person "who did not willingly decide to conform to the expectations of the era," you are right on! I'm so much a non-conformist that if my dream home is a green one with white trim, and I move to a neighborhood where all the houses are green with white trim just like I've always wanted - then I'd non-conform to my non-conformist tendencies for the sake of truly enjoying the home I've dreamed of, rather than change it to be something else because I so much enjoy sticking out and being different. That's right, I even non-conform to my own non-conformity. If you can follow that.
As for hegemons - yeah, so was Nazi Germany. I'm not impressed by hegemons. It's awfully too bad you don't fathom the intelligence in that.
My background success of homeopathies is not lies. I've seen things so incredible in homeopathy, it borders on miraculous. You know (and yes you do know!) - just like the discover of antibiotics was miraculous how it initially worked (yes, you do know that one!). Just because you don't know it about homeopathies, doesn't make it so. But, it's awfully too bad you don't know it.
Please can you explain to me how someone can have zero credibility when the info they are presenting is absolutely true? Hmmm... Actually I can do it for you: “All Truth passes through three stages: First it is ridiculed; Second it is violently opposed; Third it is accepted as being self evident." – Arthur Schopenhauer (1830)
We can see this for instance for chiropractic healthcare. And loads of other examples of course.
So as you can see, your statement, "it has already been established that “facts” and opinions from you have near zero reliability or credibility" doesn't mean squat. I know my life experiences to be true, and it's awfully too bad you don't know it.
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JASON D BENDER
(1) Godwin's Rule: 1st person to mention or otherwise invoke Nazis or Nazi ideology, immediately, irrevocably and in perpetuity - both in the eye of God and in the eye of mankind, AUTOMATICALLY LOSES ALL DEBATES and DISCUSSIONS said person is engaged in!.
If you are 2 standard deviations to the Left side of the Bell Jar (eg below the mean) that means you a moderately to severely retarded and that 92 to 96% of the population is significantly more intelligent than you! And, we all know how stupid the so called average person is!
Oh, yeah, Sheila - Homoeopathy and Chiropractic are AWESOME and they totally can cure almost anything... (Doing absolutely nothing at all also results in almost all illnesses going away, too!)
All those dummies who studied for 1.2 decades at world renowned Universities simply don't know Jack squat compared to our very own, highly retarded (by her own admission) bag lady's anecdotes and life experiences outrank the sh#$ out of science, technology and math!!
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Sheila
For JASON D BENDER: "Godwin's rule of Hitler analogies" applies to analogies. I wasn't making an analogy, I was giving an example of a hegemon. As it turns out, I'm not seeing that Nazi Germany actually was considered to be a hegemon. It wasn't. But it sure seems to me Nazi Germany of its time was a leading and major power - even at times appearing to be the strongest power, and it was the strongest power in particular situations, hence all the domination by the Nazis that happened.
And, as for the purpose of "Godwin's rule of Hitler analogies", the author of the study wrote "its purpose has always been rhetorical and pedagogical: I wanted folks who glibly compared someone else to Hitler to think a bit harder about the Holocaust." Even Godwin himself continues to comment about Nazis.
Also, it's been said, "Godwin's law itself can be abused as a distraction, diversion or even as censorship, fallaciously miscasting an opponent's argument as hyperbole when the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate" - hmmm... sounds like something you would use it for. Oh yeah - you did!
Wow! - some of the things you'll come up with to control other people! And, then somehow it's ok because you backed it by a study. Never mind that you came up with a conclusion that the author of the study did not. But, that is another thing often about studies - the biased conclusions. BTW, does this study that produced "Godwin's rule of Hitler analogies" have peer reviewed references from a respected source? Jason D Bender, get with the program and do what you've told others to do: "post peer reviewed references from a respected source or what you just said is total crock."
That's right, you don't have any "peer reviewed references from a respected source" for this "Godwin's rule of Hitler analogies" study that you are referring to. So according to your own fairy tale, it doesn't exist.
Oh yeah - chiropractic care is such a crock. We know that because we know that Health Insurance companies will willy nilly pay out for just about anything and everything. Nope - another fairy tale you've come up with (yes, I paraphrased it). And sorry, still not as clever as your "peer reviewed references from a respected source" fairy tale.
Oh, thanks for explaining the bell analogy. If somehow you were right, I must be some sort of savant at spotting the Kool-Aid in studies. It's awfully too bad you aren't cluing into the truth of someone so skilled as I. But, oh yeah, a first grader can understand the absurdities in these studies. So where does that put you?
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JASON D BENDER
Nutter!
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John Owens
If there is any chance of fetal tissue in the vaccine, it definitely IS a religious issue. Cannibalism is, and has always been considered extremely hideous and vile.
The stupidity here is, if those other students are vaccinated, and the vaccine is not bullshit, they should have nothing to fear from this student not being vaccinated. Period.
Minors do not belong to the collective. Neither does anyone else. The law in this country exists for the protection of the individual from the collective as much as protect the collective from the individual.
Who vaccinates all the illegal aliens that come into the country? They are MUCH more likely to bring a disease INTO an area than someone who grew up in the same community as their classmates.
See the previous blog regarding vaccines.
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JASON D BENDER
Wrong! on all counts! Cloned cell lines being used to incubate a pathogen that is then killed or denatured to produce a vaccine does not equate in any way to cannibalism and NO human cells are in the end vax product.
Wrong about "if those other students are vaccinated, and the vaccine is not bullshit, they should have nothing to fear from this student not being vaccinated" - the kid got dumped after there was a case of measles in the school. They did not want him to get sick, and die or sue... they were protecting the kid not afraid of him.
re: don't own minors: Thank you for informing us of the purpose of human rights... we had no idea that people don't own other people anymore. /end sarcasm
re: undoc immigrants: Thank you for making an excellent case for providing basic health care services for all immigrants regardless of whether they are documented or not...
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Bob Anderson
John Owens..your MAGA hat is showing.
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John Owens
That is a mindless, bigoted thing to say.
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Norma Battes
" Who vaccinates all the illegal aliens that come into the country? They are MUCH more likely to bring a disease INTO an area than someone who grew up in the same community as their classmates. " THIS is a " mindless, bigoted thing" to say.
P.S. Let me explain - tourism bring millions of people into the country annually. And you want to target a few thousand brown-skins crossing the border? John Owens - racist bigot
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John Owens
Tourist dollars have nothing whatsoever to do with viruses, Norma, and illegal aliens are not tourists. What school taught you otherwise?
Nothing bigoted about scientific reality.
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John Owens
I've never heard of a virus giving a damn what color one's skin is. You brought up color. Not I.
You try to dodge the whole point by making it racial. The viruses don't care. Each group of people from any geographical area are going to be exposed to a certain limited set of sicknesses. When they go to another area, they take their sicknesses with them, and they come into contact with new ones to which they may have no natural immunity.
Try not to be a liberal bigot, okay?
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John Owens
...and you should not throw that stupid insult "racist" out so freely and ignorantly.
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John Owens
Your own racism is glaring at you. I didn't mention brown people. You imagined them, because that is what is in your head. Illegal aliens also come from China, Canada, the British Isles, Croatia, the Ukraine, Russia. There are white Mexicans, white Cubans. Your warped ideas about reality are really funny and sad. Then, you know I am right about viruses, but you try to make me the bad guy, when you are the racist.
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JASON D BENDER
John, you don't have to say it here - we have read the totality of your posts here and your racially bigoted are as clear as the hooked nose on my face i inherited from my Jewish mother! Shalom!
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John Owens
You only call me names because my logic and grasp of facts is greater than yours. You cannot stand it, so you shriek, "racist," because that is all your infantile minds can think of. You can't pin me on anything racist, because I haven't said anything racist.
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John Owens
I'd like for you to quote me one racially disparaging remark I have made on the ULC blogs. ONE. Don't quote me someone CALLING me a racist. Quote me saying anything racially disparaging. Where I said something disparaging about another race. You cannot. We all know this. This shows you do not love facts. It shows you love your false beliefs. I don't hate you for that. You guys are the haters.
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JASON D BENDER
John Said: "I’d like for you to quote me one racially disparaging remark I have made on the ULC blogs"
100% (almost) of the things you have said about immigrants is STEEPED in racial animus!
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John Owens
So, Jason, you are saying you cannot quote one racist comment by me. I already knew that. You guys think you can just call anything you don't like racist and that means you are on the correct side. Pretty pathetic of you, really.
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Beth K
Immigrants, documented or not, from Mexico, countries of Central or South America, Canada, Africa, Asia, and Europe have a MUCH higher rate of immunization than do US citizens. Their governments require them to, only allowing exceptions for medical reasons - not religious or philosophical reasons - and they have socialized medicine that pays for them in Mexico, the countries of Central and south America, Canada, all countries in Europe, most in Asia, some in Africa.
There is far more to worry about from antivaxxers who are native to the USA - whether they are politically on the left or on the right.
The good news here is that a pandemic of a disease, probably an old, well-understood disease, for which we have a vaccine or a cure, will likely become break out again, people will panic, most will die - before we have something like nuclear war, billions of climate refugees, water crises, food shortages from the previous two... It will reduce the population to a manageable level, or possibly undershoot that level. Note that 98% of the species which have ever lived on earth are now extinct.
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John Owens
Your fantasy is dark, but a fantasy, fed by socialist propaganda and globalist fear-mongering among the masses. You are talking propaganda, and not reason.
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John Owens
For your utopian socialist fantasy to work, you still have to stop people at the border and vaccinate them, which you are avoiding. You cannot provide anything for people whom you do not see or know are there, and it would be sensible to vaccinate BEFORE they mingle with the populace. They could spread something our fake herd immunity has never been around, or catch something their own fake herd immunity has never been around.
You still need reminding that you have no say over the children of others. You can mind your own if you ever make any.
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The Doctor
AND AND AND OBAMA WAS NOT BORN IN AMERICA! And the world is flat, and its less then ten thousand years old! And we never went to the moon! And there were at least 3 shooters for JFK! And there were bombs in the towers!
Did I miss any of the nonsense you and your ilk believe?
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John Owens
And BTW, none of that has anything at ALL to do with vaccines.
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John Owens
You made up a lot of nonsense, T. I've never mentioned 5 out of those six things your "ilk" attributed to my "ilk". What is the matter with you, to hysterically make up stuff like that?
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Plarp
I appreciate your willingness to discard some examples of antiscientific rhetoric. The list you provided, however, is rather typical for person who fail to apply the same scientific standards to each case.
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Norma Battes
Umm, no collusion?
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JASON D BENDER
Coveffe!!
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Carl Elfstrom
I was raised Catholic, and got all my vaccinations as a child. My Catholic parents got theirs too. Certain individual Catholics might be against vaccinations, but that doesn't speak for the religion as a whole. I could be mistaken, for memories tend to fade, but I seem to recall receiving at least one of those vaccinations at the Catholic elementary school I was attending at the time. Of course, that would have been in the late sixties or early seventies, and they could have changed the rules since then, but I seriously doubt it. I've got a lot of Catholic relatives and acquaintances who surely would have mentioned it. However, many individual members of all religions have personal beliefs that don't coincide with that of their religion. I even had a Catholic girlfriend in 1989 who got an abortion. Thank God I didn't have to marry her. Besides being a devout Catholic I found out she was studying the Santaria. Of course, she was also a psychology teacher at a junior college, and you can't expect those people to be wrapped too tight.
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Rev. Wilmer Stanley
I'm a religious person myself but this is not a religious question. Civil rights end where they start to infringe on the civil rights of others. Meaning your right to not vaccinate ends where it starts to put others at risk. So it's not a religious issue, it's a public well-being issue.
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JASON D BENDER
Yep! Some people's religious beliefs involve pedophilia (no, this is not a crack at Catholics) others involve violent resistance to the federal government... People have a right to believe whatever they want - not to do whatever they want.
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Ruth Williams
I am convinced you are a troll. You have nothing of intelligence to report or contribute. You are shaming people and calling them liars or stupid. Why are you on a Universalist forum? Why are you even engaging without articulating fact based information to prove your points? You asked that of me and when I provided, silence from you as you continue to bait people. It does no good to anyone. Even yourself.
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JASON D BENDER
I have posted more links to respectable resources (NIH, CDC, AMA, etc) than anyone else here. You have made lots of claims and posted lots of links... And, at least 10 times I have replied with links and facts that proved what you were saying and why you were saying it was lies and a totaL crock of ignorance.
You said "You asked that of me and when I provided, silence from you as you continue to bait people. "
SILENCE!?! Silence from me... about some crap you posted? OMFG No one here is on your case recently more than I am. I have shown you to be a crackpot about a dozen times on this single blog in the last 4 days!
... ONCE AGAIN, THE THINGS YOU ARE SAYING MAKE NO SENSE when evaluated in the context of reality...
Enjoy stupidity - you will have much company there!
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Ruth Williams
You are constantly talking down to people. I'm 100% confident that vaccine technology is not perfect. That attenuated vaccines shed and create spread. That Dr's are given $400 per fully vaccinated child as bonuses to the practice. That the CDC Board makes the recommendations to the schedule when they own the patents to the technology. That many people do not have immunity to measles despite receiving the vaccine. That the VAERS reporting by Dr's shows millions of dollars in compensation to vaccine injured people. That RIGHT NOW there is a navy sea ship with fully vaccinated men in quarantene for an outbreak of mumps... Which they recently received a booster for. That the pharmaceutical companies have received 90 billion in profits last year. It is fully corrupt business under the premise to save us from normal childhood diseases. That people are turned into sheep with fear mongering.
I am more at risk being exposed to children recently vaccinated with varicella which sheds for weeks through saliva. I have a compromised immune system and it is FACT for me becoming sick from it.
It is FACT I have no immunity from measles. Despite 2 MMRs and contracting wild measles.
It is FACT the technology is flawed as viruses mutate.
It is FACT that you are not the expert in immunology nor am I. But I do my homework. I read peer reviews. I read CDC and Merk literature. It's all available. In black and white. I question. You create chaos.
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JASON D BENDER
Ruth, The US Government has ordered me to cease and desist arguing with old ladies, hags, biatches, bag ladies, fag hags and yo mamma about this subject, Under penalty of terminal boredom per the USC WGAFF subsection 2.:
LOL ... Merck!? How very 1890 to 1970 of you! Why don't you try to impress me with your card catalog indexing skills while you are at it. Or, prove how smart you are with a lecture on table based relational database systems! LOL
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Beth K
Ruth Williams: " That RIGHT NOW there is a navy sea ship with fully vaccinated men in quarantene for an outbreak of mumps…"
I regularly read Navy Times. There is no Navy ship that is or has ever been in quarantine for mumps.
If you want the actual facts, dock landing ship Fort McHenry had an outbreak of parotitis among 25 sailors and marines in December, 2018. By March, 2019, the problem was cleared up, and there have been no further outbreaks.
Parotitis is INFLUENZA that has some of the same symptoms as mumps - swollen glands, swollen lymph nodes. It is not the mumps. It is flu.
They were never in quarantine. They just never went to port. Many ships don't pull into port frequently - 90 days is not uncommon.
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Calvin Pacheco
Because it is a public forum Do you understand public? Just because you dont agree with him doesn't mean you can shame him or her off of the paige. God help the stupid people
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Dan Atatakai
What specific religion teaches to NOT take vaccinations? I know of none.
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JASON D BENDER
probably the same stupid ones that prohibit blood transfusions, mandate prayer instead of treatment by a doctor, prohibit surgery and antibiotics, etc. (eg. the stupider of the stupid ones... lol)
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Sheila
Matthew 18:6 - "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea." Christians aren't supposed to hurt their kids. The specific "religion" is Christianity.
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JASON D BENDER
you are a bald faced liar. in one post you say MMR vax caused your child's seizure disorder... in another you blamer tetanus. you are making up stuff to fit your narrative!
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Sheila
Yeah, you sure read those wrong. Yes, MMR shot caused my son's epilepsy. Because he has s epilepsy due to the MMR shot, now tetanus shots cause him seizures. The tetanus shot is now a seizure trigger - but I never said it caused the epilepsy. You do know the difference between causing epilepsy and causing a seizure don't you? If not, please let me know - I can break it down for you into terms a 1st grader would understand.
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Beth K
My husband has epilepsy, as do approximately 2% of the population. He periodically has seizures. What Sheila seems to be saying is that she would prefer that people with seizure disorders, including epilepsy, be DEAD or permanently injured from other things, from measles, mumps, and rubella rather than have seizures. Who are you to determine that approximately 2% of the US population's lives are not worthwhile? If you really value your child's life so little as to think (s)he would be better off dead, PLEASE find other arrangements for his care and protection!
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Sheila
For beth_KCZ I'm going to be blunt and say you're stupid. Seriously, you're stupid.
What I'm saying is that vaccinations cause my child seizures. I'm not hearing from you that vaccinations cause your husband seizures. In fact, I'm quite sure vaccinations haven't been causing him seizures, or you wouldn't be talking so stupid. If vaccinations were causing him seizures, he'd quit getting vaccinations - and then you sure wouldn't be bemoaning how he's going to die or be permanently injured from from measles, mumps, or rubella.
So how do you go about determining what % of the populations lives are not worthwhile that the people proven to be injured by vaccinations ought to further their permanent injuries or die by having further vaccinations? (Yes, stupid, people do die from vaccinations)
You're stupid. Thank God the Vaccination Injury Fund exists at all, because I can tell if you had your druthers, it would not exist. That's just a further reminder that you are stupid. Find your sign and wear it.
To take another stab at getting through to you - the situation of your husband's epilepsy and my son's epilepsy do NOT compare at all. Your are stupid.
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Calvin Pacheco
What!! You do realize that book you read is not the actual bible. And that is open. To soo many interpretations that you cannot use it for anything specific
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Sheila
You said, "You do realize that book you read is not the actual bible." Ah, no I don't realize that. What are you talking about? What in your mind supposedly is the ACTUAL Bible?
You said that Matthew 18:6 is open to so many interpretations that I cannot use it for anything specific. Ah, yeah I actually can use it for anything specific, and I did. Christians aren’t supposed to hurt their kids. The specific “religion” is Christianity.
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Sheila
I’m a religious person and this is a religious question; & in truth every question is a religious question - including something as "benign" as "What color is that?". Civil rights end where they start to infringe on the civil rights of others - meaning you don't have the right to murder, etc. Also meaning the idea of forcing everyone to vaccinate ends when it starts to put others at risk. Vaccination DO put people at risk.There is such a thing as the Vaccination Injury Fund that nowhere near covers the costs of ALL the injuries incurred due to vaccinations (my kid got permanent seizure disorder - epilepsy - MMR shot, just prior to age 1 & didn't get to enjoy his 1st birthday - or even any other birthday after that like he would have due to further neurological damage due to that shot - NO pay out to my kid!). And, vaccination injuries are on the rise for the on rise even for those that do get compensated. And, even something as simply obvious as Sirva takes 2 years or more to make it through vaccination court! You want your "vaccinations" to protect you? Then take them. According to what vaxxers believe, you are completely safe from the disease, and the only people putting themselves at risk are unvaccinated people. So let the anti-vaxxers get sick - and those lucky enough to be deemed "can't be vaccinated due to condition" can be careful where they go, or use Nosodes from a homeopath that actually knows what they are doing - nosodes from big homeopathic companies have been known to use bad water, bacteria in things - so check w/ FDA on safety of a company. When a homeopathy has bad stuff in it (all vaccinations have bad stuff - including phenol that now causes my child seizures among so many other seizure triggers) it is dangerous - and then probably doesn't even qualify as being a homeopathy. Research on homeopathies don't compare with vaccination companies - vaccination companies have more money and do more "research" which I put in quotes because the "research" I've read has such obvious holes, a 7th or 8th grader could spot them. In comparison, ABA for autism has LOTS of research it works, but OT has very little research it helps autism. Dr. Temple Grandin commented along the lines of that's because ABA does better research, and that doesn't mean it works better than OT. To that I say, "Well duh!" So to draw the conclusion for you if you didn't catch it - vaccination companies do better "research," and that doesn't mean it works better than homeopathy. (& I did see I recent study showing that homeopathy prevented disease better than vaccinations - because despite what vaxxers believe, even vaccine companies "research" shows that vaccinations do NOT 100% prevent the disease. Fortunately that's been known for over 4 decades, and the vaccine companies haven't denied it's true - yet.
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JASON D BENDER
Homeopathy is quackery of the highest order!
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JASON D BENDER
Homeopathy is a pseudoscience – a belief that is incorrectly presented as scientific.[2][3][4][5] Homeopathic preparations are not effective for treating any condition; large-scale studies have found homeopathy to be no more effective than a placebo, indicating that any positive effects that follow treatment are not due to the treatment itself but instead to factors such as normal recovery from illness, or regression toward the mean.[6][7][8]
Hahnemann believed the underlying causes of disease were phenomena that he termed miasms, and that homeopathic preparations addressed these. The preparations are manufactured using a process of homeopathic dilution, in which a chosen substance is repeatedly diluted in alcohol or distilled water, each time with the containing vessel being struck against an elastic material, commonly a leather-bound book.[9] Dilution typically continues well past the point where no molecules of the original substance remain.[10] Homeopaths select homeopathics[11] by consulting reference books known as repertories, and by considering the totality of the patient's symptoms, personal traits, physical and psychological state, and life history.[12]
Homeopathy is not a plausible system of treatment, as its dogmas about how drugs, illness, the human body, liquids and solutions operate are contradicted by a wide range of discoveries across biology, psychology, physics and chemistry made in the two centuries since its invention.
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JASON D BENDER
What Are Nosodes, And Do They Do Anything For Your Health? Debunking myths about the "vaccine alternatives." see: https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/12/16/what-are-nosodes_n_8820206.html
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JASON D BENDER
Lies! Below you blame Tetanus for the alleged seizure disorder, here you blame MMR. WOW!!
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Sheila
I didn't blame tetanus shot for a seizure disorder. But, I'm sure it's done it to someone. What sentence of mine are you looking at that says my kids got a seizure disorder from a tetanus shot? Oh I see it now, "Tetanus shots cause my child seizures – so why wouldn’t I use a nosode instead?" Yeah, you sure read that wrong. The MMR CAUSED my child's epilepsy. Now that he has the disorder, phenol is a seizure trigger. Therefore, a tetanus shot would CAUSE him a seizure - not cause epilepsy. He already has epilepsy due to the MMR. And, if any mercury in any form in a tetanus shot - that'd also CAUSE my child a seizure. Mercury is now a seizure disorder. Mercury in shots also CAUSED him red/green colorblindness. I cured it with metal chelator. So I'm not lying just because you can't interpret things correctly. It's all TRUE what I said.
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Stoodie Baker
No actual science to support any of your claims. There is no link between vaccines and autism, think was long ago debunked as false. You don't even seem to understand how vaccines work, of course they don't "100% prevent the disease" that is not how vaccines work at all. I suggest you research herd immunity and actual medical research than the homeopathic quackery you keep spewing. Those people that actually can't get vaccinated for legitimate medical concerns, i.e. child AIDS are protected because of herd immunity. The truth is anti-vax idiots put the entire population at risk because they diminish the herd immunity. Polio didn't go away because Salk developed a vaccine for it, but now it's coming back because of people like you that believe the internet ramblings of snake oil rather than honest scientific evidence. I'm not going to dispute that your kid has a neurological condition but did an actual medical doctor tell you that it was because of vaccines or is it your assumption? Coincidence does not equate to causality. People like you scare the shit of me, because you're not informed and you believe that you are and you and your ilk use duplicitous fear tactics to sway people to your "side." The simple fact is decades of proven scientific research prove the effectiveness of vaccines. End of story.
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Sheila
The doctor and his staff neglected to put the shot date on the card, so the date that's on the card is not the real date. The real date is about a week earlier. When I brought my son in and said about the seizure I saw, and asked about the shot causing it, the doctor said he didn't think I saw a seizure. That was in Aug and the next seizure was in Dec. Then the seizures began occurring more often - at least 2x a month or so. Right at about age 2, I had him on a seizure drug - caused other problems of course. Regardless of what you think regarding my kid's situation - the MMR shot most definitely has caused epilepsy in other children (https://physiciansforinformedconsent.org/news/physicians-informed-consent-finds-mmr-vaccine-causes-seizures-5700-u-s-children-annually/). Good to hear you know vaccinations don't prevent disease for the vaccinated 100%, because people so often act as though it does. It's absurd to think that vaccinations can't cause autism. The studies are flawed. I read the final one from 2004, and it's flawed. A 7th or 8th grader could find the flaws. When Dr. Wakefield's research was disregarded, I knew things were VERY wrong. I bet you haven't read his book - Callous Disregard: Autism and Vaccines: The Truth Behind a Tragedy. And, had I known sooner - I would NOT have vaccinated my kids, it's that absurd to believe vaccinations can't cause autism. Vaccinations CAN and DO cause blindness. That doesn't mean that all blind people had their blindness caused by shots. What is obvious is that shots can be the cause of ANY disorder that is neurological. Nosodes in a study prevented diseases, like polio, 91% ( https://www.organiclifestylemagazine.com/all-natural-homeopathic-immunizations-homeoprophylaxis-is-a-proven-alternative-to-vaccines - Dr. Isaac Golden, PhD (Australia) conducted a 15 year study with 3000 children ). I can't find by what percent polio is prevented by being vaccinated. I know you know it's not 100% - so what percent is it?
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JASON D BENDER
The study you quoted is junk science from a charlatan. Ifg it is not double blind and peer reviewed by real scientists, its double the b.s.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10484829 (nosonodes protection was 22% compared to vaccines >99%)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4443832/ (There is scant evidence for nosonodes safety or efficacy)
Efficacy of Polio Vax: Two doses of inactivated polio vaccine (IPV) are 90% effective or more against polio; three doses are 99% to 100% effective. A person is considered to be fully vaccinated if he or she has received: four doses of any combination of IPV and tOP.
Proof: Prior to introduction of the salk vaccine, there was 58,000 cases of polio in the US / year. Less than 5 years later the number was under 100/year ... Less than 10 years after the vaccine the number was under 10 per year.
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JASON D BENDER
PS: Suck on them facts! LOL
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Sheila
Sounds as though you are claiming people are NEVER injured by the polio shot (excluding things like Serva). People who were injured ought not be included among the success rate. For a whole lot of people, getting the polio disease would have been far better than the injury sustained due to the vaccination. Therefore, the data you are presenting is dangerously skewed.
Effectiveness of a homeopathy also depends on the the effectiveness of the homeopath who made it. I know from experience that homeopathies work. Awfully too bad that you don't know that from experience.
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JASON D BENDER
Anecdotes MEAN NOTHING. The only valid way to study effectiveness and safety of medications is via DOUBLE BLIND peer reviewed studies with large data sets and long term tracking!
You said "Sounds as though you are claiming people are NEVER injured by the polio shot" - I NEVER SAID ANYTHING LIKE THAT!!
You said: "Effectiveness of a homeopathy also depends on the the effectiveness of the homeopath who made it." - LOL Homeopathy is complete junk sience and quackery. I posted links making this point by National Institutes of Science, Center For Disease Control, and the Canadian equivalent of the CDC. Their opinions are more important that your facts!
and " I know from experience that homeopathies work." We have already established that your opinions cannot be trusted.
and "Awfully too bad that you don’t know that from experience." - Thankfully my parents were smart enough and wealthy enough that I was able to enjoy the benefits of Western Medicine practiced by board certified MDs my entire life! No Homeoquacky for ME!
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JASON D BENDER
Seilla's Cooko, Cooko! Cooko! for Nosodepuffs!
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Sheila
For JASON D BENDER - Anecdotes mean everything to the person who has actually experienced it - Duh! I did a quick review of what a double blind study is. I'm not impressed. You can still end up with some really invalid and unreliable results. You can start out with some question, "Do dogs really chase cars?" Then provide your researchers with ordinary pet cats because cats and dogs are very similar mammals in many ways. And, low and behold, it's discovered none of the cats chase cars - even when cross referencing 1000's of ordinary cats over a span of 10 years. Then the data is extrapolated to ALL mammals, including the dogs, that dogs most definitely NEVER chase cars, and no other mammal does either. That's exactly the sort of thing that was done with the supposed final study done on autism/vaccine connection in 2004 - the "Eighth and Final Study." But, I don't remember the time span.
I just did a quick review of the 8th and Final autism/vaccination study from 2004. Besides the MMR shot, other shots with thimerosal in them were also looked at - but I saw nothing about taking into account the Hepatitis B shot that was given to babies before even leaving the hospital after birth. That's been going on since at least the year 2000 - now that I look it up, that shot has been given to newborns prior to going home since 1991. Hmmm - no wonder this study didn't pan out significant differences in autism between groups with thimerosal in their shots vs. those without. It didn't take into account in the study that ALL the children in the study had already gotten thimerosal - in the hep B shot!
Anyway, the first time I had read this study (must have been an edited form) it extrapolated that because there was no significant difference in autism among children getting MMR shot vs. those who didn't - then NO shots cause autism. Yeah - and dogs don't chase cars. The logic is poorly unscientific. And, of course the study didn't have some bunch of kids who'd receive NO shots at all and compare them with the thimerosal kids and see the significant difference in autism rates. Now that I review this form of the 2004 study, it does do similarly the same thing as what I'd previously read. It extrapolates the shots that were studied to all shots saying none of them cause autism. Yet, doesn't take into account the Heb B shot (find kids who'v ONLY had that shot and compare them with kids who've had NO shots) and doesn't compare to kids who've had NO shots.
Opinions are NEVER more important than facts when the facts are true - regardless of who is giving the opinion. Duh! Your references are not impressive. The same sorts of things used to be said about the chiropractic practice. One story I read was that it was invented when someone hit another guy over the head with a book - and the guy who was hit by the book got relief from his ailment. Yet, now chiropractic is well respected enough to get covered by insurance. So yeah, of course I'm going to take my personal experience facts on homeopathy over any opinions you've got to throw at me, regardless of where they are from.
But, all a double blind study does it try to do a good job of removing the "placebo effect" and "demand characteristics." Yet it's obvious to me that can still totally fail at producing a reliable and valid study. I'm not impressed.
You stated, "Thankfully my parents were smart enough and wealthy enough that I was able to enjoy the benefits of Western Medicine practiced by board certified MDs my entire life!" Ah, no - in reality you just lucked out like the majority of people who don't get autism. Currently it's supposedly at 1 in 59 people (actually it's higher than that - it's been around 1 in 35 in South Korea since about 2009 - United States under reports). You're simply a part of the lucky majority - nothing to do with wealth or smarts. Awfully too bad that you thought it was due to that.
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JASON D BENDER
Sheila just took a big dump on double blind studies !! Then started rambling on about cats and dogs and chasing cars...
Next she starts talking about how her anecdotes are better than the greatest sources of scientific and medical knowledge in the Western World... And, about how CHIROPRACTIC is awesome and just has gotten a bad rap by the same dummies (like me) with advanced degrees from prestigious universities - who do they think they are to contradict the local bag lady and her dog and cat based double blind hating Grand Universal Theories Of Nothing...
This is my fault. I made the choice to engage the local crazies and bag ladies... no one to blame except myself and the failed American educational system.
Go forth and be stupid! I care no more about any prior discussions I was fortunate enough (or foolish enough) to engage in with you (or anyone else as stupid as you and your il) on this subject or anything similar... such as the shape of Earth, UFOs, or perpetual motion devices, JFK assassination, Fiat Currency, ... and so on... total waste of time.
Get thee behind me, DEMON!
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Sheila
For JASON D BENDER: What you know based on your own personal experience is of course going to be better than what any research project/study done by [whoever] can provide you with - duh! In fact, personal experience is one's own personal radar for recognizing when something is bunk. It's awfully too bad that you don't know things to be true that I know to be true.
The example I gave of a hypothetical study involving cats and dogs was to show that if a study is poorly put together; no amount of removing "placebo effects" and "demand characteristics" [doing a double blind study] is going to make such a poorly done study valid. First graders would understand this, but apparently you didn't.
Look, if you don't understand something, instead of resorting to name calling just: 1) Publicly admit you're stupid (It worked for Tommy Boy) or 2) Keep asking intelligent questions until you understand it.
Or, I suppose you can keep up your attempts at writing fairy tales. But, I don't think you're ever going to top your one about the magic eraser. Yes, your advanced degrees from prestigious universities don't impress me one iota when you are presenting what I know to be obvious bunk.
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Caroline
Yes ! All children should have their vaccine 's. They are there because people have died before because there was no help ! Now there is hope.and that is why every one should have them...to watch your son or daughter died of insane stupidly is wrong on all accounts..seeing death is hard but to know you are a parent who indirectly caused it...there is no words..
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Sheila
Right, if your child has a vaccine reaction and nearly dies from it; be sure to try that scenario again. Yes, I mean that sarcastically. Caroline, being narrow-minded such as your far overgeneralized opinion on vaccinations is downright dangerous and cruel not to consider the situation for each individual. You act as though there is no such thing as a vaccination injury fund. BTW, there's always been help for these diseases, even prior vaccinations. You think it's hard to see a child die of disease; it's no harder than to see your child die of a vaccination that you as a parent indirectly caused by allowing it to happen. You really think it's any easier to find the words for that? It's not.
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Still love those Polio shots I got as a child. Wonder if this clown also got them. If not he is a risk to everyone.
Supposedly not to those who got the shots, though, right, because that's what the shots were for, right?