The United Methodist Church, a massive Protestant denomination which boasts more than eleven million members globally, has long been consumed by a heated debate over whether to allow gay clergy.
That conversation just ended.
At their latest conference, UMC leadership overwhelmingly voted to strike down their 40-year ban on gay clergy. The decision is being hailed by LGBTQ+ advocates as a massive win and major step forward for equality.
The vote appears to signal a new consensus on an issue that nearly tore the Methodist Church apart.
40-Year Ban Struck Down
The ban on ordaining gay clergy dates back to 1984, when the UMC voted to prohibit “self-avowed practicing homosexuals” from getting ordained as clergy or serving in the church.
In 1988, they again affirmed that homosexuality is ”incompatible with Christian teaching,” and in 1992 voted to prevent church money from “[promoting] the acceptance of homosexuality.”
In recent years, however, members of UMC leadership and many more in the pews sought to soften some of their previous anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric. At each conference, debate raged over whether to overturn some or all of the church’s prohibitions on gay clergy, leading to intense division and internal strife within, with some churches even defecting from the church entirely.
At one point, the debate was so heated that the UMC seriously considered splitting in two.
After 40 years, the debate is over. On May 1st, by a vote of 692-51, the United Methodist Church overwhelmingly voted to allow gay clergy, as well as overturning a ban on performing same-sex marriages.
Tears of Joy
For many LGBTQ+ advocates, this vote was a long time coming, with members reportedly in tears on the conference floor.
“I did tear up this morning at the announcement of the vote because it was just a huge relief to see justice had been done after so many years,” explained Matt Patrick, co-pastor at the University United Methodist Church in Tulsa, Oklahoma. “There’s just been a lot of pain in order to get us to this place.”
“We’ve been going on like this since the ’70s and, finally, in just a brief few minutes with no debate, it was gone,” said Marilyn Murphy of the South Carolina Conference. “Now we can get on about the business of the church.”
A Church Divided
It’s a dramatic shift in tone from the last UMC General Conference five years ago, when members voted to tighten restrictions on LGBTQ+ clergy.
But this move hasn't come without consequences. Clearly, some of the more conservative factions saw the writing on the wall; over the past five years, some 7,600 congregations – representing about 25% of UMC membership – left the church.
Many cited a perception that leadership was taking a turn towards expanded LGBTQ+ rights – likely paving the way for this most recent vote.
It’s a major win for LGBTQ+ advocates in the church, who say they can now get to work on other important issues after nearly a decade of the church being consumed by this issue.
But what happens next? 1 in 4 churches disaffiliating has struck a major blow to both membership and church coffers. Can a church that chooses their conscience over their coinpurse survive? Time will tell.
What is your reaction?
163 comments
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Jeffrey Charles Harvey
Wow I feel sure a bunch of haters here ..I go by the Book..No time for such foolish non-sesnsical comments.Gays should not be ordained in any Religton!..Really Sodom and Gomorra! Guess we'll see soon as I feel the Lord is comming soon!
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Jeffrey Charles Harvey
I feel Sodom and Gomorra for the Methodist community!
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Minister for the Kingdom
I have been waiting to apply myself to this topic. Please be assured , I have not wondered much about my answers, but the truth never changes. It is not my intent to disregard this fact. For like my Lord and Savior Jesus: I do love you all. And like Jesus; help you see the truth. I think with that incite you must put yourself in the place of Gods word. Think of how it applies to you as it did when God in Jesus his son applied it. You say, how does this apply to me! I say, who are you? Which must be taught again [what you should have learned.] Lets look at this scriptures:
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: For all his ways are judgment: A God of truth and without iniquity, Just and right is he. (KJV)
Sodom,: One of the two cities destroyed by the Lord because of their wickedness. (Gen 19:24-28)KJV I say, please know the will of the lord. And [you] being in the site of God and before him in this world. How you will part from Earth the temporary place until all believers(who love God and his son which do his will come home.) I warn you. Like Sodom; who were warned before the great and all some day. To the evil done by the first men who were washed away when Noah and his, entered the Ark. What say you? Have you all learned nothing! They were warned! God is not Slacked! Please leave me your comments. I say, I love you all. take time to study and to show yourself approve to God, a workman ect...
Ralph Krebbs; Minister for the Kingdom
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Rev.J.Buchanan
In the Talmud, where we Christians get some of our so called rules and laws to live by, there is actually a list of 8 genders. Zachar, Nekevah, Androgynos, Tumtum, Aylonit Hamah, Aylonit Adam, Saris Hanah and Saris Adam. As a homework assisment look up their meaning. Now, God, is also mentioned in some writings with the pronouns "she and he". Yes, I kid you not, but you have to do your homework. The word androgynos appears 32 times in the Mishnah and 283 times in the Talmud. No, I am not Jewish, but a person who seeks knowledge of how the Christian religion I was brought up to believe in was developed and changed by goverment intervention, the Roman Church, and various discontents throughout the ages. If you have Amazon Prime and want to watch something very interesting, watch the movie Creatring Christ...with the thought...hum maybe, maybe not. There is a saying that goes something like this: The Jews drank from the spring of knowledge, Rome drank from the run off and others now drink from the muddied puddle that was left.
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Russel A. Kester
J. that doesn't appear to be true. The New York Times had an article making this claim. JNS (Jewish News Syndicate), responded as follows,
"it is ridiculous that The New York Times wants to use the Talmud’s recognition of sexual deformities to push transgenderism when the Torah itself very clearly forbids cross-dressing and castration (what’s today euphemistically called ‘gender-affirming surgery’),” https://www.jns.org/new-york-times-article-claiming-ancient-judaism-recognized-a-range-of-genders-draws-criticism/
So, according to Jews, no the Talmud does not recognize 8 genders. Just the male and female recorded in Genesis.
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Rolando Couce
This is why god is so furious with us we just do what the hell we want hey homosexuals a penis is made to go into a vagina
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Rev.J.Buchanan
God is not furious with me, He gives me joy and happiness every day and also to those I love. But, then I don't have hate in my heart and He knows that.
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Patricia Ann Gross
I cheered when I first heard this. Now, maybe, after decades of turning over in his grave, Charles Wesley can now rest in peace. This UMC "doctrine" was contrary to his teachings. I still have a love for his writings, which was a major reason for me joining the denomination, but this controversy was the pivotal reason for me leaving it.
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Walter J. Holbrook
Though this is an abomination as stated in the bible. We must show love for one another. Jesus preached of unconditional love and the impact it should have. Not to judge or curse someone. My personal feelings on this is reflected in the Book of Revelations. But as a follower of our Lord and Savior, I am obedient to God's word. (LOVE)
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Bruce Piek
It's an abomination to God. The ways of The world have become so subtle in sin that sin itself is deemed right. Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isaiah 5:20 God is not mocked. Sin is sin, no matter how big or small it is. For decades now, the churches have become slack on preaching of sin, they have allowed the ways of The world to infringe on the churches and peoples mindsets. Eventually destroying the sanctification of a God fearing community and the church. No or very few churches today preach of The Holy Spirit or the wages of sin. Too harsh they say. Why would a God who says He Loves us, would destroy us? We'll, let's look at the history in the Bible, Sodom and Gomorrah, ring a bell or ten? Flooding of the earth? All because of..... SIN AND SINNING AGAINST GOD. Romans 1:24-27 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Children Of God, the true believers, beware of the sin before you, don't get caught with the evil ways of this world. Time is certainly running out. Stay strong in Christ. Pray fervently do not become slack in your belief
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Minister for the Kingdom
Minister Piek,
You are correct. It is sin! The sin of this world will increase. It is prophesied. God has warned us of these times that are coming. These days are about here. Let the people be not as of Romans 1:24 - 27. we are to love as God loved us. But remember what God you are listening to. The apostle said, look here is the unknow God. The one you should be praying to! read and understand! He is the God of all gods. The mighty. There is no other. I listen to the Father(GOD). To the Son; Jesus Christ. The only way to the father is through the Son. Jesus Christ. whose blood was shed for me. At the cross is where I will be.Don't be lead astray! By the things of this world. This world will pass away with [all]and everything with it that is not his, Gods. Then the Judgement.
Ralph Krebbs; Minister of the Kingdom
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Doc Michael Pepper
It sounds like to make a comment I need to clarify whether I'm gay or not (I'm not) and since I'm about to quote the Tanakh I also need to clarify whether I'm Jewish or not (I'm not). I attend a Methodist church and have been in the very middle of the Gay Clergy issue. A careful study of scripture (particularly embracing the New Testament over the Old Testament) has led me (and a majority of our congregation) to agree we should allow Gay Clergy. That said, I am very much one of “The People of the Word” so it is very important to me to try to understand the right (translation of) “The Word”, in the right context of when the original “Word” was written. So sorry Mr. Simpson, I have to go back to the original Hebrew (in the case of Leviticus), not the Greek/German/French/English translations. For this I lean heavily on the Tanakh. In 1892 the Jewish Publication Society decided Christian translations of the Bible left much to be desired and going back to the(ir) original Hebrew, using all the knowledge of their people, and taking 24 years to attempt to get it right, they published their own translation of the Books of Moses in 1917. In the Tanakh, Leviticus 18:22 reads “Do not lie with a male as one lies with a woman; it is an abhorrence.” It’s pretty clear. But now take the context of Leviticus. At the time the Hebrews were surrounded by pagans and were doing their best to stay pure. Many of the “shall nots” in Leviticus were aimed at specific pagan practices. For example, many today feel it is also a great sin to get a tattoo (Leviticus 19:28). However this verse was specifically aimed at certain worshiping the dead rituals practiced by surrounding tribes. So getting a tattoo wasn’t a sin. Getting a tattoo as part of the worshipping the dead and following pagan practices was. So was Leviticus 18:22 also aimed at a specific pagan practice? This I can not speak to (will take more research on my part), but I do know some scholars feel the lines were directed at ritualized man on man and woman on woman practices the pagans were practicing. Of great interest, neither tattoos, nor “homosexuality”, are called out in Deuteronomy (The Law!). Why not? (Deuteronomy was of course written after Leviticus). So again, studying all of the above and especially passages and thinking in the New Testement, we concluded anyone (gay or otherwise) who would like to join and help lead the our church community, is welcome.
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Walter J. Holbrook
Doc. No I don't think that is a necessity. Speak the word of God. Not the interpretations of man.
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Amber Fry
But religious holy books are interpretations by man, there ideas and impressions of what God is, how to worship him and how to live life in his honor. If it was so clear and so specific then there wouldn't be so darn many versions and interpretations of any holy book.
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Russel A. Kester
Doc Michael, that is good food for thought. I was elated to read the German translation. Later I read an English version of the Torah and it used the term 'mankind'. But I sincerely appreciate your efforts to understand these writings in the historical context. Please do keep us informed of any further findings.
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Saraí Elalee Collins Barrón
I have been saying this for years
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Howard Pippin
What does the Bible say?
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Arthur David Perez
I am a Christian who sins, but, I find any so-called Christian who hides in anonymity to be a believer in man, not Christ.
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Alfred Tony Hollyfield
This wrong decision! We need to stick to GODS words! Homosexuality is a abomination and wrong
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Raymond Furr
I don't believe to have gay preacher in the church God would not accept it at all. In the Bible it doesn't say man to be with man and women be with women it's does say man be with women and women be with a man. It's would not be a christen church it would be satin church.
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Mark P. Bender
God loves us all.
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Alfred B Jacobson
Is there ONE who teaches the truth of scripture?? John 3:13; No one has ascended into Heaven except ... There is ONE who has come down from Heaven, namely the SON of Man whose home is in Heaven.
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Michael Sledge
So this is simple
But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God.
Jesus gave Peter the keys of the church, which translated to him handing over the authority of leading and looking after the church and its people. After Jesus rose from the dead and asked Peter to care for the Church in his name, Peter performed the first miracle in the Lord's name.
Jesus could have given anyone the keys but never gave them to a woman or a gay person. Hmmm wonder why??
The Creation of Woman
21And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. 25And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
God made woman from a man... he said leave home find a wife and start a family..
So not very smart but man and man can't make a family nor can a woman with a woman.
I know..... oh artificially insemination right... did God do this or did man do this?
Well my flock of nay sayers I will leave it with this, scientifically the embryo is not alive until fertilized with a sperm that is alive and swimming to find the embryo.
It could have been vise versa but God did not make it that way. This should speak volumes to people.
Just my 2 cents...
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
- “Meanwhile, the poor Babel fish, by effectively removing all barriers to communication between different races and cultures, has caused more and bloodier wars than anything else in the history of creation.” — Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
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Irvin March Cutler
Well someone took my comment and added their pure ignorance. They said because I do t think Gays should be preachers I’m full of hate. Must have missed my brother being gay I guess? lol Then he says in murca “I think that’s America” and said liberals want everyone to feel what they feel. WTF?! That’s my point! Liberals insist we like gay preachers or trannys which to me is an abomination of Gods design. I was saying In my first post that. America says in the Constitution “which The libs will destroy that we have a right to our own opinion. Well this uneducated buffoon said I’have a new name. BUBBA? Baaahaaahaha. My lord where do these. Things crawl from? God Bless Israel and Donald Trump President! MAGA
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Kiltedbiker
"On May 1st, by a vote of 692-51, the United Methodist Church overwhelmingly voted to allow gay clergy, as well as overturning a ban on performing same-sex marriages."
There you have it. I had seen a previous comment on a different matter in which the poster said that there is no hate like Christian love. The above quote from this article is a perfect example. It requires an extrodinary level of unmitigated indifference or even disgust with your fellow human beings to allow or promote Satan's seductive lies to distract peoples souls away from the gospel. Another Christian denomination falls.
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Rev. Michael Gerraghty II
If the Church does not evolve with the times it will cease to exist....Anton Szandor LaVey He was correct on this and this article is validation. Homosexuality was despised not long ago in the church and there has been a noticeable loss in butts in seats because of it lately. So its ironic the church completely backslided on their own laws just to keep their congregations from leaving that actually were by senses and attendance.
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Kenneth Berkeley Day
There are a lot of good comments here. Of course, I don't agree with all of them. In my humble opinion, pastors are held to a higher standard than the people that come to church on a Sunday. We are all sinners and saved by grace. But, I think that the Methodist church shouldn't change century old beliefs just to satisfy the small part of the population. It is almost as bad as the Government telling us to buy electric cars, that get recharged from a coal fired power plant.
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Irvin March Cutler
Gay folk are fine but I have Problems with Gay Preachers, teachers, & leaders. My opinion. Do t slam me I have a gay 1/2 brother and I live in America where I’m supposed to be able to express my feelings but it’s only true if you agree with liberal thought and well, I don’t.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
since you live in 'murica you "should" know that it's not up to you what other people choose to do or how they live their life. and since we both live in 'murica then I have the right to tell you you are totally wrong...probably about everything.
you know what the problem with "liberal thought" is? it's people that want everyone to be/feel accepted. you on the other hand clearly would rather have people you don't like or accept be invisible or jailed or worse.
so what is it to you if a preacher or teacher or leader is gay? afraid you'll find you are attracted to them and want to make the beast with two back with another dude? I bet you do, bubba. I'll bet you do. and that's okay, nothing wrong with making sweet love to another dude. just like with a woman, it's all about the orgasm, amirite bubba?
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Irvin March Cutler
Wow! Your out your tree BUBBA! I have No hate for gays. Like I said my 1/2 brother is gay and he’s family. Liberals? Yes like you said they want us to feel what they feel well F that! I’ll feel what God gave me not what some one else thinks I should feel. You need take a hard look at your own self. You’re obviously gay and I don’t care. What bothers me is gays in teaching positions are showing children it’s ok to be gay or. Tranny. Let the kids grow up and decide.. I don’t know or care where you live but obviously you do t know our constitution and nor should you.Rev Doc father. Hahaaa bullpucky
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Joseph
that being said and done...why is there still an age limit to be ordained in the UMC????
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RAYMOND BENITEZ
The United Methodist Church is a collection of associated congregations of Protestantism whose doctrine and beliefs are motivated by the spirit and teachings of John Wesley. George Whitefield and John Wesley's brother Charles Wesley were also significant early leaders in the movement.
Wesley engaged in heated theological disputes with another renowned preacher named George Whitefield. Though they both debated intensely, Wesley reflected on their contrast in beliefs in a memorial sermon for Whitefield by saying: “There are many doctrines of a less essential nature. ... In these, we may think and let think; we may 'agree to disagree.' But, meantime, let us hold fast the essentials. …” This appears to be the first documented use of the phrase. It was an indication of Wesley’s manner of sticking to his convictions while remaining in connection with those with whom he disagreed. Bible dictates not opinions. This is the issue. Blessings to all.
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RAYMOND BENITEZ
Opinions are views, beliefs, or judgments formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge. As human beings with limited perspectives, we tend to form opinions on all matters in life.
We have opinions on everything from politics, religion, and society to mundane things like food, fashion, and entertainment. This begs the question – what does the Bible say about opinions? Should we trust our own opinions or seek out wisdom from God’s truth? The Bible makes it clear that relying on human wisdom alone leads to destruction (Proverbs 14:12). Our hearts are deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9), and we are inclined to trust our own understanding rather than seeking God’s wisdom (Proverbs 3:5-6). That is why we need the light of God’s Word to expose faulty thinking and transform us through the renewing of our minds (Psalm 119:105, Romans 12:2). If one cannot follow the words of the Bible; they should not be here. No disrespect.
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Rebeckie Sue Haynes
God created man and he created female to be the man's partner. And that's what I believe in. I have an ex son-in-law I get along with him great but after 20 years of marriage almost with my daughter and three kids later he decided he wanted to be a woman I don't understand it and probably never will but the kids are the ones that suffer because like my 9-year-old grandson said for 9 years he has been my father my dad and now he wants to be this and he cried. It was the hardest thing that my daughter had to do set her children down and try to explain this to them. But God also said for men to lie down with woman and bear children men cannot bear children with man.
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Irvin March Cutler
Sorry to hear that. It’s like that guy who was the Wheaties dude, married to Chris Karcrashion and then said: I’ve had enough! I wanna be a woman! Get me a scalpel! Crazy man just crazy!
God made Male and Female so as to procreate. Man makes wise stuff. I mean some ruin our universe
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Russel A. Kester
Rebeckie, that would indeed be a difficult conversation. There is a movie, a bit older now, titled Transamerica that touches on this subject. It is hard for anyone to understand, but especially children no doubt. I wish you and your family well.
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Robert James Ruhnke
I find it it super interspersed that the only time certain individuals, naming no names of course, comment on posts is solely about LGBTQ+ events. Their obsession with it is a bit much.
I find this to be a good sign of the times. Yeshua of Galilee’s message has evolved over time to mean love all you neighbors as you would love yourself, not by the Bible’s standards, because they’re out of touch with our reality. Considering that the last 200 years of science has shown us more of the world than the last 20000 years of religious oppression the church has put too many people through.
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Maria Osmarina Rush-Starr
They are going to have to create their own Bible. Because the God I serve created man and woman. These are the only 2 genders God created. What us going on is that Satan has created all this confusion to bring down God's children. Like Jesus said. Satan is the god of this world and that He Jesus was not of this world. That means that all of these has been Satan's development. He has done this since the fall he has corrupted everything what is good now is bad and what is bad, now is good. But that is exactly what Satan does. Read the Bible. It states clearly that God created man and woman. And He was very serious about it. This is an abomination. Are they going to wright their own Bible? How will they pass by the verses in the Bible that talks about the sins of homosexuals. There are tons of them just Google and you will see. There is no way to just not see them... this church is going to destroy itself allowing this to happen. Why not just let them create their own church for their own kind? If they do not want to follow the Bible, they should just create their church and their Bible based on what they believe. At least they will not use what God left to us that believers to follow.. God will take care of that. just read the Bible. There is no ifs or buts about it. It is plain and simple.
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Rev. Michael Gerraghty II
Not but a few comments above you explains how the verses you think condemn homosexuality are mistranslations and not actually against it at all.
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Rev.J.Buchanan
Comment removed by user.
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Irvin March Cutler
I’m with you Maria OsmRina Rush-Starr. Any relationship to Ringo? Just Curious
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Victoria Mitcham-Smith
I am elated. I have been an ordained LGBTQA clergy for over 9 years and have been a part of the UFC Movement for over 30 years. I get so annoyed and these political blocks because I just don’t get how or why in 2024 other human beings are trying to control how we live, how we worship and who we love. We have to continue to support one another and Inpray that the LGBTQA churches around the world come together to defeat anyone that tries to stop us from living our authentic selves.
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Mona Lisa Gayles
Jesus said "Love God with your whole heart, mind, and strength and your neighbor as yourself," Matt. 12: 30-31. This is the totality of the matter. The main focus for Believers should be leading people to Jesus, and He will sort them out. He is the righteous judge not us. Considering people are usually bias and hateful. They pick and choose who they want to receive grace or not. Read Matthew chapters 23-25. He didn't take kindly to self righteous people either.
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Amber Fry
Yes, but the leading Jesus spoke of was leading by example. He let people know where he would be speaking and they could come to him or not. Their choice. He wasn't one to force it on anyone. As for the rest, if you really believe Christianity is to follow the teachings of Jesus then the rest is just their own ideas, not his. What they took kindly to or not is on them.
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Jimmy Moon
The word church needs to be removed from Methodist. It is not a GOD inspired church anymore.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Nor is your hatred, Maid Marion.
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D Thomas
Stay strong in the truth, resist the bullying. peace with the Lord be with you.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
This just in…. Gays are now officially allowed to openly declare their…..
Religious delusions
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Steven Ferrell
When a church stops calling sin, sin, it is headed towards its own destruction.
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Mrknowitall
Nothing like spitting in Gods face.....United Methodist, the church of satan !
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Stefan Schulz
All followers of Jesus Christ are welcome at God´s table. Nobody should by excluded by man, human reasoning or human judging, religious rules or other wordly philosophies, ideas and laws. See 1 Peter 2:9 in this context which says: "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light".
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Allen Lewis
Alot of people that attend a church are fake Christians. Look how many types of bibles are printed. I used the old King James bible Its is real. Gods loves everybody..he did gives us all free will..he did not make anyone gay. If your gay...thats a choice you made. Come judgement day...you will see you chose the wrong road..that would make you a fake Christian
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Rev. Michael Gerraghty II
King James himself had several Gay relationships and its historical record kinda hypocritical he'd put in his version of the bible to condemn homosexuality.
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Susan Christine Giganti
The King James is an English language translation of the Bible commissioned by himself. He didn’t like the Geneva Bible. He wanted changes in the Bishops Bible , which was the English version of the Geneva Bible. King James ordered how the words were to be translated. He authorized certain existing translations from Greek ,Hebrew and Latin Vulgate to be used and no other sources. Jesus/God/HolySpirit did not stand in a monastery and dictate it.
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Irvin March Cutler
Lololo I see, so you were there and know this. Baaahahahaaa
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Russel A. Kester
Michael, I asked Google about this and it did say that King James had three intense and exclusive romantic relationships with men. I DID NOT KNOW THAT. Thank you for telling us about that. This is what's great about this site, we learn about things we might never hear without it and are the better for it.
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Amber Fry
History in conjunction with religion can explain a lot.
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Russel A. Kester
That was a good thought with a lot of truth, Amber. Thanks.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
using the 'bible' to justify life is like using 'the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy' to explain astrophyisics,
people should read grimms' fairy tales, all kinds of lessons to be learned there and yet...no attempt to turn it into a religion or a dictatorial tome on how to run other people's lives
even here at themonastery.org it's evident that a 'lot' of people are here, not to be accepting or non-judgemental or to love their neighbor but are here to promote their own world vision, 'demonize' all those who disagree with their view and otherwise chatter like brain damaged monkeys at people who hold other views.
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Ari Joseph Bertine
My first thought, reading this, was for a woman I knew who is now deceased. She and her family left the Methodist church because of that ban. There were no gay members of the family; they simply thought it showed a bad and unloving spirit and were disillusioned. I wonder if this would have inspired her to return, if she was still living.
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
Usually, all it takes, to get a real bible believing Christian, to adhere to the Hindu- initially used “Golden Rule” when it comes to someone deviating from the norm, in terms of their sexuality, is for any such someone to have a son and/or a daughter — who deviates even slightly from the sexual norm(s). When I was still in my religious daze, the best thing that could be said about Christianity was that its adherents were supposed to try to follow the Hindu “Golden Rule” but now that most Christians have replaced the Golden Rule (a socialist notion) with the capitalist-based, “The Christian Lord, only helps those who help themselves” the only thing evangelical Christians now do, is to promote aggressive, predatory, vulturistic, exploitative capitalism, in which the rich use the biblical admonition “survival of the fittest” to justify their support for the GOP, as the wealthy steal from the poor, by selling them MAGA hats.
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D Thomas
What an interesting odd mix of slogans.
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Daniel Gray
Um no, the UMC that deals with the American churches has NOT revised anything they still uphold the ban. Recently we had a UMC less then 15 miles from me have their pastors tell the congregation that unless they stop accepting LGBTQs into the leadership then they will be removed from the American side of the UMC. Not the English side accepts any warm body they can get, but the American side does not and will not.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Bruh, this is UM News. I’m Sure there’s lots of conservative based UMC churches that’s don’t want it done. You sticking your head in the sand is not a citation. The issue had become so contentious in recent years that the United Methodist Church lost more than 7,000 congregations since 2019, with many departing over their stances toward LGBTQ people. They changed and people left. Grow. Up. For a 50+ year old man, you whine like a toddler who didn’t get his nap.
https://www.umnews.org/en/news/united-methodists-remove-same-sex-wedding-ban
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ServantOfJudgement
With each moral commandment of the bible walked back and willed away, I wonder what would possibly remain that Jesus would say there will be false teachers. Falsely teach what I wonder?
The delusional would say now we're teaching the truth. It was lies, now it's truth. The only thing you'll need to do to tidy things up is rewrite it so Jesus says near the end the false teachers will be overcome by the truth or some such.
Get your pens out kids and start word smithing.
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Russel A. Kester
SOJ, the levitical laws were written by men to try to get the ancient tribes of Hebrews to evolve as they became less nomadic and more domestic. I mean, really, when you have to tell people not to sacrifice your children to Molech, you know you have issues. The Christ gave the commandments to love God and our neighbor. Pretty simple. Accepting gay clergy is quite different than a drag queen Sunday service. One is a human, the other a caricature.
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Ellen B. Wentzel
I find that many churches judge too much. "Judge not, lest ye be judged."
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Danny D. Maynard
Unfortunately, so do the clergy and the congregants.
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ServantOfJudgement
I'm pretty confident nobody that quotes that verse actually knows what it means. Non Christians love it so much it's all they can say.
Non believers judge president Trump, it doesn't seem to phase them when they judge him.
Non believers judge president Biden, it doesn't seem to phase them when they judge him.
Believers judge president Trump, it doesn't seem to phase them when they judge him.
Believers judge president Biden, it doesn't seem to phase them when they judge him.
See how that works? All fall short, not one is innocent, not one.
Heh, judge not lest ye be judged by he whom you've judged. Now that's clear as crystal, even to he who judges.
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Irvin March Cutler
Get judge Judy👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
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Amber Fry
I'm pretty sure in context it's meaning more from the religious perspective as that is supposed to be God's job, but please, do keep insisting a more general sense. It makes life so much more fun.
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Russel A. Kester
Welcomed news indeed.
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
Hooray!
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
My heart is happy that this decision was made. I’m the mom of a transgender child and I’ve never seen them happier with their life since coming out 28 months ago.
We are not religious, but I believe it is important that one of the largest christian denominations believes that’s OK. As we human beings move forward I hope to see that all the hurt and sorrow caused to the LGBTQIA2S+ community will wither away.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
Sadly, if you read the comments here, it's obvious there are WAY too many that absolutely hate individuals like your child. Please do not let the hate-filled bigots ever harm your child, and never stop supporting them. You're a good mom that you support them with open arms.
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Russel A. Kester
Bridget, I don't believe there are very many people here who hate those who experience gender dysphoria. Such persons, like all people, possess an inalienable human dignity. What some of us do oppose are statements made without foundation or scientific evidence. False or misleading statements should be challenged in order to discern the truth. It is not hate to insist on an objective reality when someone makes a statement they claim is based on science.
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Robert James Ruhnke
“False or misleading statements should be challenged in order to discern the truth. It is not hate to insist on an objective reality when someone makes a statement they claim is based on science.” All your claims are half baked, incomplete, and ultimately derivative anti gay and anti LGBTQ+ sentiments, your argument were the same ones made against us 60 years ago. It’s how I know you’re wrong. I ultimately think when they changed Gay Studies to Queer Theory, you got jealous and mad at such an amazing and inclusive word replacing the focus of it being about same sex couples. When it it includes a lot non straight, non cis behaviors.
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Russel A. Kester
Robert, a lot of opinion but as usual no facts just attacks. Several times you've mentioned this idea of jealousy. I've no idea from where you get that idea.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Projecting a factless status on my comments doesnt make what you’re saying true, Kester. Just more manipulative nonsense on your part. The problem is focus, Kester, a lot of the LGBTQ+ are tired of many Gay men making the community about them and their issues. Many of you do whatever you can to be the focus of everything going on. It’s why so many of you are pushing anti trans rhetoric, not because it’s right but because it’s the attention you crave, plus, you think by throwing queer or trans people under the bus it’ll save you from the right wing religious fanatics should they get power. Trying to use science to justify your bigotry is a gross mis use of science. I am truly grateful though that the “LGB” are a small vocal minority of the overall LGBTQ+ community.
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Russel A. Kester
Robert, thank you for acknowledging that the LGB community is challenging the rhetoric and activities of transgender activists. I think a fair assessment by an impartial person will show that it is not the LGB people grabbing society's attention and making outrageous demands but rather the T's and Q's have cornered that market. Statements reflecting truth, reality, and science is not analogous to throwing someone under the bus which implies a negative motive. And using science to support my statements is what reasonable people do when the topic under consideration is one which science can answer.
Go ahead and use some really good science to support your statements. It would really help your position.
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Robert James Ruhnke
I acknowledge that your challenge is based on selfish hubris and a pure lack of empathy, that’s all I acknowledge. You’re the worst parts of our community mislead by devilish pied pipers, who prey on your misconceptions and bigotries. Nothing more. When you know what really good science is, you’ll stop gaslighting our most vulnerable, and you’ll start sounding like the caring person you pretend to be. So far you’ve just been using bigotry in a lab coat and calling it science, in a nasty passive aggressive manner. When you start using real science, there won’t be so much chauvinistic bigotry. Keep flashing arrogant narcissism though, it just fuels my passion to protect and speak for those I love and care for. Maybe someday you’ll know what that’s like, doubt it though.
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Russel A. Kester
Robert, more of the same. No facts, no science, not even good reasoning. There a several avenues you could use to try to justify your claims, but your oblivious to them. Science will not get you where you want to go. Trying to trash me will not get you where you want to go.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
For those claiming there are only TWO genders and that being LGBTQIA+ is "unnatural", "evil", that kids are being "forced to be it", etc. WRONG.
Genetically speaking, there are over 50 human gender variants, though outwardly, a person's gender can be born to show one of four physical appearances.
1) Born appearing to be male.
2) Born appearing to be female.
3) Born hermaphroditic, i.e. showing both gender traits.
4) Born genderless, showing no gender traits.
Now, that being said, it's not unusual for the PARENTS to choose their children's gender if they are born hermaphrodite or genderless. However, what the parents choose may NOT be what the gender of the child actually is. Nor does their outward appearance always show their true gender as well.
Allow me to explain.
You see, genetically speaking, as I stated earlier, there are multiple human genders, and there are many, many MORE gender variants. You can appear to be female by birth, and yet, genetically, be male. Internally, at the genetic level, your DNA shows that you are actually "wired" to be male, as it were.
You can appear to be male, by birth, and yet, genetically, be female. Internally, at the genetic level, your DNA shows you are actually "wired" to be female.
So, despite what some individuals may espouse and claim, there are FAR more than two human genders. Hell, even by birth, you can physically be one of four outward appearances. And it is, I assure you, all completely natural. There is no "god" factor with this, or a "devil" factor, or anything supernatural involved. For those who believe in such a thing.
It all comes down to how your DNA came together before you were ever born. So for those saying individuals who are LGBTQ+ are "unnatural", and those disparaging Trans individuals as "refusing their birth-right", you're wrong. It's completely natural. And, in fact, an individual transitioning to the other gender may, in fact, be simply gaining the physical appearance they were meant to have all along.
https://genetic.org/variations/
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James Mounts
Your last sentence belies your treatise. You refer to "individuals transitioning to THE OTHER Gender" showing even you are smart enough to realize there are only two. Also, If "there is no 'god' factor with this", I wonder then who or what MEANT them to have the physical appearance they were simply gaining.
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Danny D. Maynard
The individual is in charge of one's self ... Not the State ... Not the Church ... Not You, or Anyone like You. Do you understand?
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James Mounts
Would that saying it makes it so. I can, just as emphatically state the antithesis. It would not prove xxxt.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
No, I am NOT saying there are only two. I'm stating that there are many genders, though you can be born outwardly appearing to be one of four gender traits.
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Russel A. Kester
Bridget, no you cannot. Outwardly there is either a penis or a vagina, anything else is a physical defect.
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Amber Fry
One misprinted phrase does not discredit the whole of the idea. We all misspeak or miswrite things all the time. Granted it could have easily been posted as "another gender" to make the point but would that really make a difference to those dead set against the very idea of trans? Truly and honestly?
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Russel A. Kester
Amber, we all do mistype or misspeak in our writing, especially me! But when those who write in favor of radical trans issues, they do often make Freudian slips. Saying one is a transsexual indicate from one sex to another in outward appearance only. Saying that one is transgendered indicates that one chooses to appear or self-identity as the opposite gender, neither is reality but theater or self delusion.
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Robert Gagnon
There are only two sexes that exist for reproduction, birth defects do not change this. Gender which runs parallel to sex has male and female definitions. Yes there is a spectrum of behavior between male and female. To claim that we are completely at the mercy of our individual genetic makeup, leaves us with no free will. It also eliminates influence and nurture in all our decision making. Genetics may have some sway in our behavior because we got our genes from our parents who influence us the most in early development.
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Russel A. Kester
Bridget, you repeat the same post with virtually the same words time and time again. I have shown that the website you referenced doesn't support your assertions. You seem to believe that if you say it enough times, you can make it true by sheer force of will. You cannot because it is not.
There are two sexes male/female which correlate to two genders of male/female. That's all.
Again, the science is not on your side. In order to be persuasive, you will need to either find actual scientific evidence for your claims or resort to a different approach.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Again, your viewpoint isn’t science, period, Kester. Stop gaslighting people. Science is not on YOUR side of this. You just spin a web of manipulation and gaslighting in order to further your silly agenda. You’re nothing more than a philosophical trap to keep us busy from helping out our dear ones. It’s why I find your seemingly polite and seemingly well adjusted tone to be nothing but a honey pot.
This is how you post a citation. If you really wanted to impress me, and maybe settle my bombast, try citing your sources, Chicago style. Where you give me a link to the report, and also a point out where it specifically states your claim instead of making a generalization about that you came up with. You made the claim, do the due diligence of showing your work.
https://slate.com/technology/2021/03/transphobes-science-trap-basic-human-rights.html
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Russel A. Kester
Robert, the science is in my side which is the side of reality. I'm here to have conversations with fellow ULC ministers as we exchange our thoughts and ideas, not to impress you or anyone else. I've provided my sources many times and you don't get to dictate how that's done. Again, you provided nothing of content to discuss.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
Russel, the science is NOT on your side nor is reality. You know absolutely NOTHING about genetics and yes, I do put that same posting time and again because it takes multiple for it to sink into thick skulls. Would you like the actual genetic research? Very well.
Take your pick of research papers.
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_ylo=2024&q=Gender+variants+in+the+human+genome&hl=en&as_sdt=0,50
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Robert James Ruhnke
That’s for darn sure. How can you have an objective reality that’s based on Bronze Age disproven myths? No Kester, what you believe in is nothing more than the same old recycled male first perspective, which is all ego and zero accountability for your appropriation of science to push outdated notions of gender. Saying “well the cass report does all my thinking for me,” is not a citation. It’s k just you running your mouth on a topic you've cherry picked for the sake of vane beliefs that confirm your cognitive dissonance. You’re also showing your Dunning Kruger, not to mention all the confirmation biases. The saddest part? You’re using the same line of thinking that was used against Gays 60 years ago. It’s why I know you’re wrong. You’re so called reality has been a nightmare for those who don’t subscribe to gender essentialist views, especially women and femmes. You were taught what to think before how to think and it shows.
Again, I used to think like you once. Then I started listening to my peers. You use woke the way the old timers used hippy or commie, a slur to discredit, ad hominem, and ultimately discredit anyone who doesn’t push your agenda. So far your idea of conversation is pontification of propaganda. The saddest part, you’re pushing misinformation on Trans youth transitions. Puberty Blockers aren’t pushed, they’re asked for. One of the main uses for them I’ve read about are to help teen cis teen girls who have a family history of early development. Few surgeries are ever done till they’re adults. It’s their body, their choice. The other thing? Surgery isn’t required for transition as transitioning is a personal thing that all trans people go through differently. You’d know if you weren’t busy spreading lies and misinformation.
I know I have a lot to learn, I used to think like you, share your beliefs, then I saw the light.
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Russel A. Kester
Robert, yet again you do not cite any science to support your rantings and instead try to berate those who do. Why? Simple really. Queer Theory regards the very existence of categories of sex, gender, and sexuality to be oppressive because it derived directly from postmodernism. It thus ignores biology (science) in favor and focuses on them (sex, gender, and sexuality) as social constructions in language instead of actual observations proven by biology. Your head is in the clouds of make believe. That's okay for children but not adults.
As for children undergoing surgery, "The Komodo analysis of insurance claims found 56 genital surgeries among patients ages 13 to 17 with a prior gender dysphoria diagnosis from 2019 to 2021. Among teens, “top surgery” to remove breasts is more common. In the three years ending in 2021, at least 776 mastectomies were performed in the United States on patients ages 13 to 17 with a gender dysphoria diagnosis, according to Komodo’s data analysis of insurance claims. This tally does not include procedures that were paid for out of pocket." https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-data/
This trend is accelerating with graphs showing a steep upward slope. This is a reflection of the increasing willingness of so-called gender affirming doctors to perform lucrative surgeries.
It was Mary Poovey who referred to traditional gender recognition grounded in intrinsic human nature as essentialism (a term you used above), and she was a materialist feminist who believed patriarchy and capitalism forced women into socially constructed gender roles hence her use of a Marxist oppressor / oppressed language and ideology. That's as woke as it gets and is the basis of your arguments and conduct in your comments.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Again Kester, you base your “science” on religious beliefs, not actual science. You let your cult and superstition dictate what you think is or isn’t natural. You’re gaslighting of me doesn’t make what you say anymore true. Your conduct of your comments isn’t polite or kind, it’s nice, a superficial way to be insulting, a big “bless your heart,” I’m well versed in your mean girl tactics. Why give you more ammo to be dismissive of credible science, when I can look up the biases of your flawed sources.
Yes, when we stopped being so friggin dismissive and cruel and began to accept Trans people as just being different human beings, More people felt comfortable to start experiment with gender expression. It’s a lot like being left handed, when we stopped associating with left handedness and it’s evil and the devil, and accepted them, more people were left alone and allowed to thrive. I’m sure in some cases they necessary as a form of corrective surgery for say an intersex issue. I’d also say that if the youths have parental permission that’s between them, their parents, and their physicians. You have no right to take that away from them based on your superstitious propaganda and incomplete data sets.
You mentioned Anita Bryant the other day, see, she hated feminists, LGBTQ+, leftists, and liberals. You two have more in common than I do. lol that’s what’s ironic about your posturing.
You rarely cite anything at all, so you don’t get to lecture me on citation. When you do, aside from Reuters, it’s right wing fascist nonsense. The funny thing about old school Marxists, is that they too were patriarchal, they too pushed for women being in the home. lol they too pushed for gender roles. I’m no Marxist. lol. You’re again just trying to gaslight. It seems that’s your idea of conversation and argument. I may be harsh, but I have no need to project when you freely say much of the quiet part of alt right’s erasure based agenda.
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Russel A. Kester
Robert, again more emotion but no science because there is none for your position. What other faults Anita Bryant had didn't pertain to the topic I was addressing which was that she said gays choose to be gay and could choose to be straight which is the same thing you wrote. That was the topic, that was the comparison, and it was a fair comparison. As for Marxists, I stated that you were using their strategy of creating oppressor / oppressed classes and used them for your own purposes. Whatever else Marxists believed is not germane to my point of how they and you use language to frame your arguments. Deflection and attacking your interlocutors seem to be your default communication styles. But I am hopeful you will use better ways to argue for your philosophical, theoretical, or religious positions.
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Russel A. Kester
Bridget, I randomly looked at three articles from your list. Here's my findings. The first article was titled, "Transgender and gender diverse individuals' perspectives on discussions of fetal sex chromosomes in obstetrics care" which summarized it findings thusly, "The aim of this exploratory qualitative study was to examine TGD individuals' opinions regarding fetal sex chromosome disclosure sessions." It was asking people for their opinions about some discussions. That's not hard science and said nothing about any genetic causes for trans identity issues.
Here's the next one. "Recognizing, Evaluating, and Prioritizing the Fundamental Factors Influencing the Growing Prevalence of Transgender and Non-Binary Gender Identity in the Pediatric Population" and its summary, "This review observes the growing demographic of individuals identifying as transgender or non-binary, which currently represents approximately 1.3%(depending on the source) of the US population. This population is shown to skew younger." Again nothing about a genetic cause only statistics that it is skewed toward younger people. In other sources, I've read that this affects girls more than boys now by a very large margin. This is best explained by social media as the rise coincided with the advent of social media like Tik Tok and Facebook. The positive correlation was very strong.
And the last one.."Early Female Transgender Identity after Prenatal Exposure to Diethylstilbestrol: Report from a French National Diethylstilbestrol (DES) Cohort" which sounded promising until I read, "In recent decades, a significant increase in the number of transgender people has been reported. Although, its etiology is unknown, biological, anatomical, genetic, environmental and cultural factors have been suggested to contribute to gender variation." It clearly says that the etiology, which is the cause, set of causes, or manner of causation, is UNKNOWN, and then lists things it tells have have been "SUGGESTED to contribute" NOT PROVEN.
The research papers you suggested with were not based on hard science or admitted that the cause is unknown. So no, the science is still not on your or Robert's side. You two are the ones guilty of gaslighting your fellow ULC ministers with unsubstantiated claims and citing sources which do not support your claims but actually work against them.
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Robert Gagnon
Terrible example of logical, lot less scientific proof. An all opinion article saying science and facts are a trap.
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Robert James Ruhnke
No, your outdated views of science which are just bigotry in a lab coat. Your justifications are just opinions you hold dear, Gags. Nothing more. lol you and Kester subscribe to the same puff piece superstitions. You’ve stated nothing but conjecture, misinformation, lies, propaganda, and just being plain gaslighting manipulators. Notice how it’s just 4 of you vocal goofs with everyone else being a mix. Grey, Kester, Sevant of Judgemnt, and you gags. Some of most illogical and rude there are. With you at least being the most honest.
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Robert Gagnon
You just described the article link you quoted. How can you overlook the article is an opinion? Cherry picking incomplete science that only counts when it agrees with your argument is no different than the bible thumpers techniques. You flatter them by imitation.
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Irvin March Cutler
So your saying that God created people physically how they should be and it’s ok to have some quack take a scalpel and make them a different sex, 2 sexes at once, hell man let’s make them goats and ducks too To hell with God, let’s make people what we want. Lololol WRONG
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
It doesn't work like that Transitioning individuals are simply outwardly changing their APPEARANCE to be what their genetics have hardwired them to be.
But I notice you don't argue against women and men having cosmetic surgery to alter their appearances in other ways.
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Russel A. Kester
Bridget, in our conversations, I shown to you that the belief that gender dysphoria has any scientific basis especially genetics is false. You've been given appropriate quotations and their sources were provided for your perusal. I also looked at websites you referenced and quoted from them showing that they do not support your assertions. It's very unfortunate when someone is so wedded to an ideological position based on bad critical social theories that they refuse to see objective, scientific reality in favor of what amount to nothing more than fairytales.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Hey Kester, It's very unfortunate when someone is so wedded to an ideological position based on bad critical social theories that they refuse to see objective, scientific reality in favor of what amount to nothing more than fairytales. That’s you saying the quiet part out loud about your Christianity. We divorced ourselves if that way of thinking. You should too, let go of your internalized phobias and grow from right wing propaganda. You’ll feel better buddy.
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Russel A. Kester
Robert, your repeating what I wrote showed that I referred to reality and science as opposed to bad social theories and said nothing about religion, and yet you introduced it to try to make it sound as if I made a religious argument. I didn't. You created a straw man of sorts hoping to discredit what I actually said which was the I have provided Bridget with science and facts in past comments and read her references and showed that they did not support, but in fact refuted, her position.
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Robert James Ruhnke
You don’t need my help to do that Kester. Your gaslighting does it for you. At this point your narcissistic tendencies undermine all of your arguments as bad faith and in need of updating.
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Russel A. Kester
Robert, more ad hominem attacks and armchair psychology. One day you will surprise everyone with an actual, well articulated argument. I look forward to that day.
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Jimmy Moon
What you describe is mental illness.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
No, being LGBTQIA+ is not a mental illness. You are such by genetic birth. Nothing more, and nothing less.
You are either LGBTQ+ by birth or you are not. It is, literally, your DNA. NOT a "mental illness". There is no "treatment" for it. People need to give up their hate and bigotry and just accept it. But of course they won't because they LOVE being able to have someone to hate.
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Russel A. Kester
Bridget, I don't see Irvine's remarks as having any relevance to lesbians and gays but rather to surgical operations on those who suffer from gender incongruence. Being lesbian or gay is not recognized by mental health professionals as a psychological issue, however, gender dysphoria is still acknowledged as such. Conflating all of these groups creates a false group identity and makes addressing the very different concerns of each problematic. It's best to address trans concerns and identity separately from those of lesbians and gays.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Gender dysphoria is not a mental illness, psychiatric care professionals don’t include it as a mental illness. Your anti trans psych kooks are issuing outsider or bigotry based data. There are gay and lesbian trans folk out there, the two are not mutually exclusive. That’s more of your gaslighting. We are a group community, get over it, you might be the most hateful and ignorant, but you’re still part of a group of people who are despised by right wing Christians. No matter how polite you are to them, they’ still want to erase you. It doesn’t matter how many TQ+ people you throw under the bus for them. My gods, you’re just straight guy with a phallus fetish at this point.
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Russel A. Kester
Robert, the DMS-5-TR refers to trans issues as gender dysphoria and the WHO and ICC calls it gender incongruence with psychological counseling recommended for such persons. No counseling is recommended for gay men, lesbians, or bisexuals. In my comment above I used the term 'psychological issue' not 'mental illness's as you did. Another example of how you twisted my words by swapping one term for the other. That is not how one argues in good faith. And you write yet another characterization of me in hopes to make me, what?, look bad to others? feel mortified and deflated? What is the purpose of such behavior? Just state your premises and conclusion. And for the record, no, I don't consider a trans female who is attracted to women as a lesbian, he's just a straight man with a fetish.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Only in the US. Asian nations where transgender is accepted, it’s not needed. It’s only needed due to the bigotry they face from within and without the community. It’s recommended everyone seek mental health help from time to time. Our LGBTQ+ community is besieged by constant threats and mental health hurdles. In time, there won’t need to be a psych eval to being trans. Psychological issue is just you being polite, and two faced. And gas lighting. For the record you’re entitled to your opinion, but that doesn’t mean they’re facts. When you realize reality isn’t some black and white ridiculous caricature projection that’s only 2000 years old, you’ll be free. Till then I’m sure it’ll just be more gaslighting and hot takes. You’re the man with the fetish here, Kester, you’re protesting too much for their not to be truth to it. The point of the comment was to strike a nerve and see what focus you take, and you didn’t disappoint. You’d have moved on or ignored it like you do everything else lol. Trans woman, one cannot change sex, trans sexual is another dated term you’re pushing because gender isn’t a biological phenomenon and is easily changeable. Trans lesbians and gays exist without your approval. Though I can tell you’re trying to erase them because of your sense of deluded vanity.
If you’re criticizing and gaslighting entire communities of people, I think it only fair your character be taken into account. When you stop gaslighting people in your comments, my analysis.of your psychological profile will stop. When you use real science, and not outdated nonsense hot takes, my characterizations will stop.
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Russel A. Kester
Robert, the term tans woman is not a real thing whereas a transsexual is.
My statement that gender dysphoria is in the DSM-5-TR is a fact.
Trans lesbians and trans gays do not exist but actual lesbian and gay men do.
When you use real science, real terms, and have a reasonable basis for your statements we will be able to engage in better dialogs.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Transsexual isn’t used outside of your generation much anymore. In fact the only ones I know who push it are over 40-50. If an individual wishes to ID as a Transexual, I’m not going to correct them, I will respect that pronoun. One cannot change their sex. Unless we invent a gene therapy and create fully functional synthetic organ swaps, which is plausible. Transsexual is also considered offensive. So go figure that you cling to it whilst hiding bigotry behind taste. lol
No we won’t Kester because the only thing you truly respect is your own opinion and opinions that look like it. Your so called elitist respectability political correctness means no matter what you’ll be a rude snobby A-Hole to anyone who doesn’t drink your koolaid.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/transgender-vs-transexual
“ A 2015 reviewTrusted Source notes that, for decades, the term transsexual referred to people who had undergone medical procedures, such as gender-affirming surgery, to match their gender identity and physical appearances.“ Trans Gender means you don’t have to go through this complete transition. Some people don’t ID with either gender. I know, you’ll of course gas light that sentiment too.
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Russel A. Kester
Robert, the term transexual is a fine term. I understand why you and those who hold your position want to use trans to group everyone together, but that is not good as it confuses it doesn't clarify. It's the same reason you want LGBTQ. But I disagree and advocate for separating them as we've discussed, again, because it makes it clearer of whom we're speaking and what the issues or concerns of the person might be as they are not the same. I take no issues with a transsexual adult person. I do take issue with the idea one can claim to be transgendered by self-identification and allowed into women's areas while still anatomically male. That's bad.
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Robert James Ruhnke
You have no Facts, Jester. Just Clownish Hot Takes.
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Russel A. Kester
Very mature.
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Robert Gagnon
They just want as many members as they can get to keep the cash flowing. Does this mean drag queen Sunday school is OK now?
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Danny D. Maynard
So you admit that churches are just wheels used to generate money.
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Irvin March Cutler
Yep they are and to control people
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Robert Gagnon
Not all spiritual leaders are in it for the money, but too many are. One the flip side, membership is dropping fast as rain, true believers are more willing (to let things go) if it gets the word of God out. For some it's just bottom line.
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ServantOfJudgement
Technically it should. It'll be fun to watch how they handle it. Most likely those that would oppose it already left. The kids'll all come home dressed up like the teacher, with parental approval of course.
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Rev. MichaelRS
The purpose of the judeo-christian scriptures is, in part, to give us a understanding of what GOD intended for our lives despite the influence language and culture might have on His word down through the ages.
For example we know that Greek society for the longest time in the ancient world had a more than a bit of a gay or Bi bent to it. Alexander the Great was known to cross swords and "swords' with more than the Persians. So it's not unusual that some of the wording they used back in the day would influence some of these scriptural writings.
However, for those who profess to be of a Judeo-Christian faith, we have solid evidence of what GOD intended from the beginning, or "In the beginning" if you will, when he created the partner for Adam.
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Russel A. Kester
Michael, you read the story of Adam and Eve too literally it seems. That story doesn't tell us what God intended, it tells us of the stories the early Hebrew tribes told to help them make sense of the world they saw all around them.
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Rev. MichaelRS
If the scriptures are no more than the stories of men by men without divine direction or inspiration, then they are simply all a lie and God does not exist at all.
Now if you believe that, that they are all fables and God does not exist, that is perfectly your right to do so. But another perspective is required before one can seriously call themselves a Jew or a Christian.
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Russel A. Kester
Michael, to say that scripture is the product of men does not render it either uninspired or mere fables. Understanding that different parts of Scripture were written for different reasons and purposes requires that one use different methods to understand Scripture. Which are literally, allegorically, morally, and anagogically.
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Rev. MichaelRS
Actually I don't feel like erase deleting it and rewriting the whole comment, so I will just amend what I said there at the end....
Of course one can be a complete atheist or even go the other way and worship Satan and still be a Jew by accident of birth.
But if they claim to be a level of religious Jew along the lines of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, THAT is when a different perspective is required other than one that renders the scriptures meaningless as simply being man-made/ inspired.
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Amber Fry
Who says they are not man made, just inspired by God? Who says specific plans have to be universal and exactly the same for everyone? Reading the different stories, many that contradict, seems to imply we all have our own way of being and should tend to our own, not everyone else's. Those stories never turn out well for oppressors.
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Rev. MichaelRS
There it is. The Marxist/Communist worldview that the world is divided into two groups, the oppressed and the oppressors, that has infested so many of today's "Christian" viewpoints white conservatives being label is the pressure class.
It would be nice if everybody could simply live their own lives but we know that's not how it works. Government is in our lives to the point that we don't let children under 18 get tattoos or have sex or allow them to drink under 21
( obviously those figures vary by country to cunyry or state to state, but it's just an example for the point)
Yet thanks to gender ideology that has been pushed on us we are now told to believe that prepubescent children have the mental capacity to decide what gender they are and decide if they want life-altering medications or surgeries.
Or that we have to not believe our own eyes and biology when a person is clearly male or female but we are told to call them the opposite because that's how they feel. But I assure you a thousand years from now when archaeologists are digging up our bones we will only be classified as male or female because they will have no idea what the individual's pronouns were.
But as long as that nonsense is being pushed on us, then people would Common Sense will be pushing back. And there goes the whole thing about everybody just living their own life
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Danny D. Maynard
Your evidence is not so solid, Preacher!
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Rev. MichaelRS
If one is outside the judeo-christian faiths then of course it isn't.
But if one claims any of the various versions of those faiths the creation is the very foundation of all of them.
If one does not accept the creation as outlined in the Torah/Bible/Old Testament then they cannot claim themselves to be any kind of Jew and/or Christian.
And part of that outline is that God created male and female...period.
He did so because his intent was not that a round peg should fit in a round peg or that one should travel north on that dark road which was only meant to be a one-way street going south.
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Samuel Tamayo
Promoting and encouraging a false religion. Farther along when Christ walks around We will see why this too is also wrong . Walk in the sun shine before sky's go dark and gray then and there you will see the error of your ways. Peace be with you.
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Robert James Ruhnke
You’ll find out you’ll be the one in error. You’ve been staring into your torch so long you’ve confused it for sunshine.
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Merlin
Finally light!
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ServantOfJudgement
Sure, man's light. That's what God calls it anyway, man's light. We all have our own light different from his. Ours is a couple years old and his exists outside of time.
Truth and delusion are indiscernible to man without a reference point, like a moth buzzing a lightbulb. It knows no difference.
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Rev. BH
Curious. Nothing about men (or women) "sleeping" with little girls? That's OK? As for gay clergy, I agree with Jeffery - no problem. Plus I have no doubt that throughout religious history there has always been gay clergy, known or unknown. The problem has not been about sexual orientation, but child molestation, a separate issue.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
Sadly, many clergy in way too many churches have NO problem with 40 yr old priests sleeping with 12 yr olds to "sanctify" them as they call it.
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Lionheart
Well, being as God was happy with Mary getting pregnant at only 13 or 14 years old by him I guess it’s okay. 🤭
🦁❤️
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
That's not funny.
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Amber Fry
Who's being funny? Mary was thought to be in her early teens and God and his angels ageless.
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ServantOfJudgement
Rev bh, of course there's been gay clergy. You don't think the priests raping boys are straight do you?
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Colleen McAllister
Most child molesters are straight.
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Rev. Diana
It's not about sex, it's about power.
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Amber Fry
I thought most people knew by now, it isn't about sex and attraction, it's about power over someone else regardless of gender.
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Nicholas J Page
What does it matter if they can do the job properly and dont flirt with the same sex or worse then carry on doing the lords work
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Danny D. Maynard
Which lord? There are at least 3,500 to choose from.
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ServantOfJudgement
There are plenty of cheap copies around but only one original. The copies are easy to spot once you know what to look for, the original is even easier.
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Amber Fry
Um, you do realize there were many, many other religions and gods well before Christianity, right? By your logic it would be the biblical version that is a cheap copy. Even the bible doesn't deny it. Not having any other before him doesn't mean others are not real or are any less, just that the main focus should be on him.
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Randy C Hamilton
Perhaps Jeffery should send his info to the Vatican.
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James Mounts
I agree, if we want to see where the UMC are heading we need only to consider the Catholic church's past and present problems with pedophilia.
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Jeffery Simpson
I have no problem with this. I have more of a problem with mistranslated Scripture. The original text absolutely, Unequivocally positively says nothing about "men" or "women" having sexual encounters. It says before marriage, German Bibles from the 1800s. So we went to Leviticus 18:22 and he’s translating it for me word for word. In the English where it says “Man shall not lie with man, for it is an abomination,” the German version says “Man shall not lie with young boys as he does with a woman, for it is an abomination.” I said, “What?! Are you sure?” He said, “Yes!” Then we went to Leviticus 20:13— same thing, “Young boys.” So we went to 1 Corinthians to see how they translated arsenokoitai (original Greek word) and instead of homosexuals it said, “Boy molesters will not inherit the kingdom of God.” the word arsenokoitai means Man sleeping sexually with "Boys", Children so you have opinionated men changing Scripture to fit their views and that's Blasphemous idolatry 101
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Russel A. Kester
Jeffrey, thank you bringing those mistranslated versus to our attention. A correct translation makes them clearer and allows us all to with them.
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Jeffrey Charles Harvey
So sorry it appears you're gay and I will pray for you and all misguided gays and all th ABC's.. Sincerely Reverend Jeffrey C. Harvey
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oy_gevalt
And I will pray for you and others who think that others' personal business requires your prayers so that they can better live in your image than in G-d's.
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Danny D. Maynard
How does a prayer differ from a magical incantation? Hint: It does not.
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Rev. Tim
Mostest Holier Rev. Harvey,
Surely your prayers would be more usefully directed at imploring god to regenerate missing/amputated limbs, restoring damaged/destroyed eyes, and healing the extensive scars of burn victims?
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ServantOfJudgement
I'll dig into this more when I've finished my bible study. First glance of the Greek word 'arsenokoitai' points to a hopeful translation by your friend that's completely wrong. Actually I read about 20 different sites that translate the word.
Determination is 'men who sleep with men', that's the abomination Paul is talking about in Corinthians.
I'm willing to be wrong but everything I've read points to the commonly viewed translation as being the correct one. We need to make sure we're not leading ourselves astray via hopeful translations. You can count me in that, I'm fearful I do the thing I've warned about. We're all at risk.
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Russel A. Kester
Jeffrey, I just want to add that I looked in my Luther Bible and you are 100% correct! The German word used in the Levitical versus you cited uses the German word 'Knaben' which does mean a young boy. And the word in 1 Corinthians is 'Knabenschänder' which does mean child molester. So, from now on I'm going to do my Bible reading from my German Bible! Thanks again, Jeffrey.
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Taking advantage good-natured folks, that want no trouble. Bowing to immature bullying, yelling screaming and shouting, as well as the likely possibility physical harm.