Mainstream Christianity still cannot figure out how to treat gay people within its ranks.
After several years of emotionally charged debate, the United Methodist Church has decided to maintain its longstanding official position that homosexuality is "incompatible with Christian teaching," as outlined in its Book of Discipline.
Delegates from the UMC recently voted to reject the "One Church Plan," a measure that would have allowed regional denominations to determine their own positions on homosexuality. The "Traditional Plan" approved in its place maintains the Methodists' status quo stance against homosexuality, gay marriage and ordaining gay people.
It even designates punishments to ministers who choose to defy church rules and perform gay marriages anyway. For the first wedding performed, ministers will now receive a minimum one-year suspension without pay. If they perform a second, they risk being permanently removed from the ministry.
A Church Divided
Although the traditional wing of the church prevailed, the vote served to expose a widening schism on LGBT issues within Methodist circles.
Some members were thrilled to see the church uphold a ban on homosexuality. "The Bible tells us that we need to stay faithful to the Word," said Ble Leon Nathan Ake of Cote D'Ivoire, who found himself on the winning side of the vote. "It's God's plan, it's the will of God, it is the biblical way."
But a growing faction within the church thinks it's past time to adopt progressive views toward LGBT inclusion. Delegate J.J. Warren, who is gay, spoke against the Traditional Plan. "Jesus told the little children to come when the disciples tried to shoo them away," he declared on the conference floor. "Don't shoo us away. Let us come."
Adam Hamilton, lead pastor of the Church of the Resurrection in Leawood, Kansas, the largest United Methodist congregation in the United States, called the Traditional Plan "regressive" and alienating to progressives. "You've inspired them to action. They're mad, they're upset, they're hurt." His comments were met with resounding cheers and applause.
Others expressed their frustrations online:
Lingering Questions
While some protestant denominations have become more accepting of homosexuality in recent years, Methodists remain amongst the least tolerant and most resistant to change. When the U.S. Supreme Court legalized same-sex marriage in 2015, the news sparked intense divisions in the Methodist Church divisions which have only become worse over time.
Despite numerous efforts to come to a compromise, fundamental disagreements over how to treat gay people have prevented the church from finding a unifying stance that satisfies both sides.
The pace of social change is clearly putting pressure on traditional religious views. Opinions that were widely held just a few decades ago (that gay people shouldn't be allowed to get married, for example), have become less and less popular - to the point that many consider holding such views reprehensible.
What does the future look like? Will traditional religious institutions embrace progressive causes or stick to their ways? If they go the latter route, could it affect their ultimate survival?
140 comments
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Rev. Rene
It is a fact that a horse which always had blinders on cannot process the rest of it's world when they stand removed! So too our Methodist Christian brothers and sisters who were raised in the belief that there is just one way to be a good Christian. They are wrong, but we must still love them as fellow man!
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Rev. Dr. Gordon Francis Blaney Jr.
While I'm a member of the LGBT community, I support individual churches and religious communities determining what their doctrine is to be. In addition, as a member of said community, I support the individual's right to be. If a fellow member of the LGBT is discontent with their religious affiliation, then their choice is clear to me --- renounce their religion or renounce their nature. I'd select nature each and every time. If I select nature, then does that mean my spiritual journey is over? Not at all. It means I'm choosing to interpret scripture that is different than the religion that doesn't who I am. I'm free to find a religious organization that's supportive of the LGBT community. This all being said, it's entirely ethically and morally wrong to berate someone from having a different way of life.
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Jim D.
Oh, Dr. Gordon, if only everyone thought as you do, the world would be a much better place. A very healthy outlook on society.
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Patty
I wish more would think like you. Each of us make a choice and a Christian with what they choose to live by the Bible is their choice as well as you have a choice.
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Pastor Dave
Pure wisdom Dr. Gordon. I firmly believe and always will that we all will stand before God and be judged. What right do I have to judge my fellow man when I am saddled with original sin.
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Bill Huffman
Kind, compassionate and firm. I certainly have no problem with that! Thank You Sir.
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Tom B
Respectfully...the Methodist majority does not understand God...Peace...Tom B
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Carl Elfstrom
Disrespectfully, the Methodist majority are morons, and I won't waste my time on such people.
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Tom B
Carl...Respectfully, how little "time" do you have, that you would comment like that?...Tom B
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Carl Elfstrom
Tom B... Respectively, I don't understand your intent.
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Tom B
Carl...my "intent" was to question as to why you would take the time to write a totally denigrating comment, when you could have said nothing...i disagree with the Methodist position, but i would not call Methodists "morons"...what does name-calling accomplish?...Tom B
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Renee franks
Correct read the bible like forward and backward and sideways till all ways are pointing to Jesus ... he will come back
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Lionheart
Yes, I did that, and thankfully having studied it in great detail I came to my epiphany that it is indeed a load of fictional rubbish. Then, finally, with no religious guilt hanging over me, no blackmails of hell, I went into recovery, and life became so much happier and I could truly see how much religion, and my indoctrination, had screwed up my life. All ways for me pointed to EXIT, as fast as possible. I have honestly never looked back. Life is now very good, and my eyes are fully open.
Those of you who are still deeply immersed in religion won't be able to see as I now do, and you will more than likely be saying I am going to hell, and that's okay, I know where you are, I've been where you are.
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Plarp
I sort of believe you Lionheart. Except that you comment here quite frequently. I'm not so sure you can get away from the religion. Sort of think you're addicted to the drama.
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Lionheart
You are of course quite right. I’m angry at having been so heavily indoctrinated for so long. I guess I’m still working my way through it all, so please bear with me.
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Tom B
Lionheart...to me, you are progressing in the right direction...Peace...Tom B
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Lionheart
Thank you so much, that means a lot. My heart is heavy for those who have not yet seen the light, especially those causing mayhem, death and destruction for their faith, even though they will think I am the one to have been led away from the truth. Only at death will we all “truly” know. ✌?☮️
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Tom B
Lionheart...you are apparently an older soul...we each have our own path; many have countless lifetimes to experience before they see the light...Peace...Tom B
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Clayton Beardmore
God's condemnation of homosexuality is abundantly clear - He opposes it in every age: In the patriarchs (Genesis 19:1-28). In the Law of Moses (Leviticus 18:22; 20:13). In the Prophets (Ezekiel 16:46-50). In the New Testament (Romans 1:18-27; 2 Corinthians 6:9-10; Jude 7-8). Why does God condemn homosexuality? Because it overturns His fundamental design for human relationships - a design that pictures the complementary relationship between a man and a woman (Genesis 2:18-25; Matthew 19:4-6; Ephesians 5:22-33). Why, then, have homosexual interpretations so successful at persuading so many? It's simple; people what to be convinced. As a Christian, you must not compromise what the Bible says about homosexuality - ever. No matter how much you desire to be compassionate to the homosexual, your first allegiance belongs to the Lord and to the exaltation of His righteousness. Homosexuals stand in defiant rebellion against the will of their Creator who from the beginning "made them male and female." (Matthew 19:4). Homosexual advocates have futile reasoning - their arguments are without substance. Homosexuals, and those who advocate that sin, are fundamentally committed to overturning the Lordship of Christ in this world. But their rebellion is useless, for the Holy Spirit says "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, not idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). 1 Corinthians 6 is clear about the eternal consequence for those who practice homosexuality - but there's good news. No matter what the sin is, God has provided forgiveness - embrace it.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
Clayton Beardmore: The bible is not the final arbiter. It is merely a human book written over millennia by mere humans giving their peculiar understanding of god. They do not speak for god but for themselves and need not be taken seriously, The majority of people don't hold to the bible as god's word but merely man's word.
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Carl Elfstrom
Different people and religions believe in their deities in different ways. Even sects within the same religion have different beliefs. Instead of condemning Methodists for having different beliefs on this subject wouldn't it be better to simply ignore them, and stay clear of them, letting them live in their own little, lost, narrow minded world all by themselves. I once knew a man who started out as a Baptist minister, retired as a Methodist minister, and then had his own gay christian church, and kept getting retirement benefits from the Methodists. So they aren't all without hope. Some of them come to their senses, and stray. However, talking about the ignorance of that Christian denomination isn't going to accomplish anything, other than make us more frustrated.
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Patty
I’m glad that you read the verses from the Bible. The Bible is Gods word. Some people think it’s just words from a human being. But it’s God’s word wrote using a human being. You take all the books together and all the different times that nobody knew each other and they all coordinate with His word. So thank you for describing what the Bible really does say. People have free choice to believe or not to believe. And I believe that are we all perfect no. But I do believe most Christians that have a one on one relationship with the Lord tries to live by His word. Doesn’t mean that a gay person can’t come to church just means we can’t partake what church does or says or participate in a number of areas. But I would say they’re welcome because hopefully they’ll be changes and we’ve all sined. I don’t think it’s any worse for a man and woman living in sin or a gay persons living in sin it still a sin. We need to get right with Jesus and God and it does contain these things in the Bible. Thank you again for showing the verses and if they don’t want to except it that’s their choice but I do
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Howard
Thank you Patty, either the Bible is God's design or make your own. Methodist don't condemn you for what you are, you are condemning yourself. I have no problem setting with gay people at church. I have no problem with a gay minister. I do have a problem with a gay practicing minister, the same way I have a problem with a practicing drunk minister..I keep trying to put my sins behind me, Jesus has forgive me, do you?
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caz
Muslim say the same thing, do you consider that they are wrong?
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Dragon Priest
LIve in that world with that god then, That is not the reality of Source. Source does not condnem his creation on the basis if sexuality... which he made us by. What foolish religious nonsense is this? I want no part of it.
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Howard
You're on the right track, just keep on looking.
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caz
God did not state that he opposed homosexuality, that was the word of men. Genesis and Leviticus, I believe , were the words of Moses, and Romans was down to Paul, I can't comment on the others. However, as Christians, we should be following exclusively the teaching of Christ, and he didn't even mention homosexuality.
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Clayton Beardmore
God's condemnation of homosexuality is abundantly clear - He opposes it in every age:
- In the patriarchs (Genesis 19:1-28).
- In the Law of Moses (Leviticus 18:22; 20:13).
- In the Prophets (Ezekiel 16:46-50).
- In the New Testament (Romans 1:18-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Jude 7-8).
Regardless of whether you agree with them or not, the Methodists are correct. We shouldn't "bend" that which is clearly stated in the Bible to fit our own agendas.
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Nathaniel Robert Hunt
and other religions refuse to bend to christians and their laws anymore, we have our rights to practice as we see fit
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caz
None of the books cited by Clay are the words of Christ, and as Christians, You should be following Christ's word and only Christs word
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Rev. Brien
I am truly amazed by how mountains are created from mole hills. Please spare me all of your worthless arguments and just answer this one question: Why in the hell would you want to attend ANYTHING knowing that you are not welcome because of who and what you are? Why not just form your own church? Ok, that was 2 questions. None of you will be able to answer that without including some nice and tidy political soap box. Stop trying to change views that will not change. Form your own church and change the views over time.
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Clayton Beardmore
The only thing you said that really makes any sense is "stop trying to change views that will not change."
The Bible is already written - it is the Word of God - it WILL NOT change, no matter how it's "viewed."
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Rev. Dr. Gordon Francis Blaney Jr.
Clayton, I'm not aware of your background in religious studies. However, the Christian faith has changed the words of scrolls as well as voted on the inclusion and omission of a plethora of scrolls. In case the word scroll is confusing, the bible is a collection of scrolls. What is even worse is the original meaning is lost in translation from the original or from another translation. In short, the word of God from a historical perspective has changed. If the word of God didn't change, then you'd require no less than 3 ancient languages and original manuscripts as well as the wisdom to decipher. I'd suggest reading more on these issues and educate yourself rather than attacking someone's statements with falsehoods. I, however, don't blame you, because you've been indoctrinated by misinformed people who are fearful of God.
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Lionheart
Yes, your god loves slavery, and killing people, especially when he gets angry. He’s actually quite a pathetic figure, but keep following him if that’s what pleases you.
If people want to share their love for one another, let them get on with it.
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John Owens
It's not the same if God kills someone. He can resurrect them, and kill them again.
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Lionheart
Oh that sounds absolutely wonderful. How very kind of him. He sounds like such a nice man.
I think though, that I might just pass up any offers to meet him. There’s something that is really starting to put me off, but, I’m sure, deep down, he’s a really nice guy. Very troubled, but I’m sure a nice guy.
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John Owens
I don't know, but the scripture says ALL the dead, small and great, will stand before Him. We call that the second resurrection.
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Lionheart
If that second resurrection thing that Christians believe was ever true, I think I'd try and work my way towards the back of the line for as long as possible. I figure that way, from the billions of people in line, I might be able to somehow grab myself a few beers (and I'm talking high ABV craft beers, not the fizzy pop Budweiser stuff), and throw a few parties, before his holiness gets to me, puts me on his lap, and sends me to the red trap door of doom. Try and put in a good word for me John when it's your turn, I'll slip you a beer way before you go and jump on his lap, Hopefully, he won't notice. ?
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Jim D.
Seriously? And is that a good quality one should look for in a God?
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John Owens
Well, Lionheart, the message proclaimed by most churches is not at all the one taught by Jesus and the Disciples. Neither in the proper way to conduct oneself, nor concerning what happens after death.
At death, we die. Like dogs. Like turtles. Like moths, dolphins, fish, whatever. We die. Nothingness.
Until a certain moment in time. Then, certain ones from each generation will be resurrected immortal, and a few living at that time will be changed into immortals. Then, many things will come to pass, and some 1000 or so years afterward, all the other dead shall be raised, but as mortals. This will probably be in phases, as there will be so many, but that is only a guess. They will all stand before the judgment seat, and be judged according to the books (I'm assuming the books of the Torah, as those the ones that list the rules). Another book will be opened, which is the book of life. I think the only reason that book would be opened is to write new names INTO it, because if the people are in this resurrection, it stands to reason their names are not already recorded there.
Anyone whose name is not written into that book shall be cast into the lake of fire, and destroyed, permanently. No limbo, no burning forever and ever, but death. That is the actual message taught by the Apostles. Whether you believe it or not, is entirely up to you. Everything I just told you here can be easily read in Revelation 20, pretty much as I told you, except the things I am just guessing, which I told you I am guessing, or surmising.
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Lionheart
That’s a fascinating story isn’t it? It’s almost as good as the J.K.Rowlings stories. A bit too gruesome for me. It’s amazing what some Christians believe isn’t it?
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John Owens
MORE amazing what things some atheists believe, and more amazing still some things they deny.
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Lionheart
Don’t forget that even your God doesn’t believe in a power higher than him, so he too is an atheist. So I guess you worship an atheist.
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John Owens
You are almost correct, even while trying to be shockingly irreverent. It is true that He has no one to worship or obey, although He obeys His own commands. He has changed His mind a few times, but not His character.
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preacher richard h.
GOD gave us humans FREE WILL love who ever you want But we will all be judged and don't bring your love life into the Church That see's GODS WORD so differently than you do. Why force your decisions on those who know it is sin.? that is Fascist an immature behavior Hence the same sex sex go n sin no more amen
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Lionheart
Oh stop it and grow up. Your god doesn’t exist, but sadly you don’t know it yet.
If people want to love each other, let them do it. God is love, right? Amen and Hallelujah. LOL.
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preacher richard h.
GOD Loves his creation an calls what you like an abomination, The punishment for sin is Death, (to be forever out of GODS GRACE.)N yes he exists we talk all the time
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Lionheart
I’m good with that. I actually don’t want to see him. He sounds like a nasty piece of work to me with multiple personality disorder.
I’d pray for him to get better in that department, but I’m thinking it might just fall on deaf ears. Hopefully he’s praying for his own betterment but who does he pray to? Weird isn’t it?
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Lori
The Bible is the words of men. A collection of chosen story's from the past that can be, and are, interpreted in any number of different ways. It is frequently viewed the way a particular group "wants" it to be viewed, when, in fact, the true and historic fact of its passages have been explained by anthropologists, philosophers and interpreters as they were intended to be. The sad thing is that most Christian communities cling to the BS of past leaders who manipulated and twisted text to suit their own needs. The people believe what ever they're told.
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Rev. Brien
Like I said, another political bigot soap box. This happens on all sides. You missed the point entirely. You have your nice little ignorant stone age church. What do you care if people form their own? It is funny to think that your ignorant judgements do not welcome people because of....wait, the reason does not even matter because the funny point to this is they would probably welcome you into their church even if you are a straight, judgemental bigot. Do me a favor, only respond if you can use your own words, and not something out of some dusty book that has been POORLY translated over the last few hundred years. Also, that dusty book that you quote from is one of the MOST mis-quoted books of all time. Congratulations.
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John A Anderson, CD, CIF Mons ON
Clayton, the bible was originally stories passed down orally in Aramaic. They were written in Greek from these, and then translated into Latin. While in Latin, they were copied by hand for approximately 1000 years. In the 1400's Gutenberg produced a printed version. Then, James VI of Scotland wanted a version in English. This became the King James version, which was used as the standard from which all modern translations are based. Each time a new translation was (and is) made, the translator makes minor (at the time) choices in which word to use to translate (because very few words have the same meaning across different languages, there is usually a nuance of definition different between them). That is 4 translations involved, not counting the books that were dropped each time politics got involved (Nicene and following church councils, and the KJV), in order to satisfy the demands of the political leadership involved), nor the minor errors which creep in when copying (think of what happens when you photocopy a copy of a copy of a copy... ad nauseum; after about 50-100 copies, the document becomes unreadable). The bible you think is unchangeable HAS changed.
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Lionheart
Thank you for this John. It's what most of us know, but it's sort of pushed aside into the corners of the brain by those who really don't want to know, because it if they think about it long enough they might start to see the truth that what they have been believing for so long might not in fact be true at all.
Perhaps the real Aramaic story was that some woman cheated on the man who loved her, so they dreamed up this wild story of a deity making her pregnant. I'm sure they thought no one would believe it and must have been overwhelmed when they found people were buying it. Much like the GoFundMe couple that dreamed up the story of the transient helping them out. They made over $400,000 on that scam. What's amazing is that people actually buy into stupid stories, and I think it's because they want to believe it. The story line is great, so why not, and while we are at it, let's add a talking snake and a talking ass to see how gullible some people really are?
Reality is, the Biblical scam is making some people extremely rich, unless you are a skin and bones starving child in Africa.
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Casey
Will not change? Yeah, right. The Codex Sinaiticus (4th Century AD) is the oldest known Bible, and its version of Mark omits Jesus appearing to the disciples. 400 years of tradition, editing and change just between the events and that version, let alone the 2000 we presently have.
Why is Revelation in there, when the author was almost certainly not John the Apostle or John the Baptizer? If you claim they are, you're saying that this man lived into his 80s at a minimum, when life expectancy in the Roman Empire for someone of Jesus' time was 35, and even if you survived childhood, 70 was something to seriously celebrate.
If I found a first-century, verifiable, printing of Mark that listed Mary Magdalene as a co-founder of the church, would your views change? It is older than what we have.
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Chris
Most American Methodists voted in favor of catching up with the times. Unfortunately, Methodism has a much larger hold in other parts of the world where they actively persecute homosexuals, and they had enough support to swing the vote in their favor. As with some other aspects of life, it's those with closed minds who shout the loudest, and in this case they shouted enough to continue discriminating.
It's interesting Jesus never said one word about homosexuality and yet so many who claim to follow him don't understand what he was really about.
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John A Anderson, CD, CIF Mons ON
Most, if not all, of the quotes used to support the anti-homosexual agenda for Christianity, and considered to be Yeshua's words, were actually written by Saul of Tarsis, who brought in the Jewish point of view when he converted. Yehsua himself said ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about people's sexuality. (You are correct, Chris). This Jewish point of view coincided with the Roman one, so when the Nicene council convened to decide which books of the bible would be orthodox, and which would be heretical, they chose the ones which would have the support of the Roman emperor.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
United Methodists new motto: Closed Hearts; Closed Minds; Closed Doors.
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Kirk
There are a lot of churches out there. Pick one that accepts you! Think of a church like a friend, you don’t force someone to be your friend.
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John Owens
Something very difficult to accept in life: Not everyone is going to accept you. They don't have to do it, and they aren't going to do it. It is not necessary. Maybe they are wrong. Maybe not. Either way, you cannot make them accept you. As long as they tolerate you, you have nothing to cry about. Tolerate them.
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JORGE TERAN
These bad called "christian" don't accept gays, but they don't accept anyone, for example in Paraguay they discriminate with the aborigen people. The excuse to heat LGTB is because the bible bla bla, but what about: don;t judge, love anyone, etc? Nobody knows how many elders, and methodist members are LGTB like the catholic church, which are no LGTB but pederastians
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John Owens
Just an FYI to everyone who feels all persecuted:
To a person of any of the old belief systems, fornication is any physical activity between two or more people, involving a penis or vagina, besides that which occurs exclusively within a heterosexual married couple. That definition does not actually discriminate against LGBTQ individuals. It also includes heterosexuals, swingers, and everyone else who is not married to the person(s) with whom they are diddling, fiddling, tossing, whatever.
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Rev. John D. Partin
John Owens, have you ever considered that "diddling, fiddling, tossing, whatever" ("illegitimate" and "immoral" sex outside of conventional church marriages or fornication) also fits common law marriages and used to fit (and still does, to some people) interfaith and interracial and interethnic marriages? Many traditional Jewish families would disown and consider anyone "dead" in them who married outside of the Jewish faith and Catholics have also believed that only Catholic marriages between two Catholics were actual marriages. Protestants also believed that marriages to Catholics were "invalid". But none of these people who married people of other races, ethnic groups, religions or married them unofficially through common law allowed other people's opinions of their marriages with these people to deter them from doing so and their opinions didn't actually make those marriages invalid. So, it is another double standard for gay marriages to be considered "invalid" and "just diddling, fiddling, tossing: fornication" out of all these other examples of unofficial and unrecognized by some other people marriages, quite obviously, just because it involves two men or two women and, therefore, bigotry and unfair and unreasonable discrimination against them.
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Rev. John D. Partin
John Owens, have you ever considered that common law marriages and interracial, interfaith, interethnic, intergenerational, polygamous, and other marriages between two or more people have also been considered "just diddling, fiddling, tossing: fornication" by many people?Traditional and Orthodox Jews would disown and consider any members of their families "dead" who married someone outside of the Jewish faith. Catholics also were taught and believed that only Catholic marriages between two Catholics were valid marriages. Protestants also used to think that marriages to Catholics were "invalid". But none of these people who married people of other races, ethnic groups, religions, etc. allowed other people's opinions of their marrying these people to deter them from doing so and those people's opinions didn't actually invalidate those marriages. So, it is, quite obviously, just another double standard for only gay marriages, out of all these other examples, to be considered "invalid" and "just diddling, fiddling, tossing: fornication" just because it involves two men or two women and is, clearly, bigotry and unfair and unreasonable discrimination against them. Neither you nor anyone else gets to, fairly and reasonably, say that gay marriages aren't actual marriages and "only fornication" anymore than these other marriages were and are "only fornication" and "not real marriages".
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Carl Elfstrom
Has anyone considered that the Methodist clergy and hierarchy could be comprised primarily of closet queens, like we recently learned about the Catholics. Only the Methodists might do a better job of covering it up. That would explain a lot.
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Krystal
This decision is not a judgment. It is keeping in line with what church and Christianity is about, to abolish sin as much as we can as humans. Homosexuality is a sin, sex outside of marriage is a sin, coveting is a sin. I am a sinner. The last thing I want to do is go into a church that cheers for a sin. What would be the point of going to church? No one is perfect, no one is above sin. I go to church for the encouragement to be a better person and to fight against as much sin as I can. No one should be turned away from church, again, this would defeat the purpose of church. Jesus walked among the sinners, he did not join in on their sin. He taught them the right way to walk in life. So taking the stance that this is judgment is simply not true. To say that hate is involved is beyond ridiculous.
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Willi
I am a Christian pastor for the Universal Church Life Church and a gay man. To those that despise us, I forgive them all. To those who are not welcome elsewhere, you are welcome here. My Master Jesus spoke the truth. Unfortunately, he did not write the bible. Many use a version of the bible that was sponsored and edited by King James. It is even named after him, "King James Bible." Please notice it is not called "God's Bible." A book written and edited by people is inherently flawed. Parts are God inspired. Other parts are very evil. Approach these subjects with love and compassion for others and you will more likely find your own way to the truth.
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preacher richard h.
Right away pastor you use heated language saying those that despise homosexuals that instigates.
I find it compelling and you are not Unique to this. You state your title as Pastor an Identify the Church name ,but Why do you find it so necessary to inform us of your Sexual Preference ? Your self created victim group raises it like a weapon to attack us who are the Norm. and DEMAND we accept an you ALSO expect us to Celebrate your decision to sleep or lie with another man . an then Vilify those of us who except the word of GOD. Kings version or not.
One more point you say parts are very evil an written with malice , But aren't people Today say even 20 30 years ago REWRITTING the Holy bible to Fit their own agenda n Lifestyle choices an that's Fine but Don't try to corrupt others or pressure them to accept SIN or celebrate a Unholy union.
Bible says to use Righteous Judgement concerning our neighbors an Flee less we be Corrupted. I say Go an start a church or find one that makes Ya'll happy, but don't force your lifestyles on a moral community, Go in piece n sin no more amen
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Qrez
abrahamic religions are toxic... sure some may champion a more liberal views but they are only giving cover and legitimacy for the toxic dormant elements waiting to emerge...
the satanic panic was not that long ago and that was basically a witch hunt in modern times only constrained by secular society to much greater an extent.
If you ask me all abrahamic religions are a virulent plague on humanity only good for being a dark ominous faction in fiction or inspiring variant... all the really good threatening factions are that way in literature.
I see no other merits to it... sure it stopped viking slave trading but that was about it... after that it's all crusade, genocides and witch hunts and bigotry with normal people mixed in with some positive messages... but nothing really good comes from the so called "good book" (and it seriously isn't good anyway.. it's just boring as hell!)
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Rev. DONNA
I see a LOT of arguing back and forth about what should and shouldn't be. The destruction of the church (as in the building where people meet once a week) is taking place due to fighting amongst one another. There are divisions based on politics, ethnicity, titles, etc. I should also add the numerous cliques, which normally produce and keep gossip going. With all of that, how do we direct people to Christ? Certainly not by bickering about what people should and shouldn't be doing. God is NOT the author of confusion. My goal is to lead as many people to Christ, while I have a chance. I see their pasts. But, I also remember I have a past as well. I have learned to see that each person has a soul, whether or not they're a favorite of mine. People have major issue's they're dealing with, where thy need a Savior. My job is to let them know that Savior is available to them just like He is to me. I love freely, which has released me from so much anger and man made biases. I refuse to engage in fruitless conversations about the Bible or religion. The Holy Spirit let me know my mission is to draw all men (men and women) unto Him. I pray for The Church, not that building where people meet once or twice a week. I pray for the church the Christ is working within. We, The Church, have work to do.
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Rick Keith
I always thought the Methodist Church was a church of tolerance and acceptance. This issue and vote is probably against the constitution. Let's let God sort this out, when we all meet our maker. For now, I am for the tolerance and acceptance sooner than later.
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Michael
I think the UMC had better issues to deal with. First they should allow LGBTQ, to be a part of the church in all aspects. Secondly, I used to belong to a UMC, a Pastor we had, had a serious drinking problem, he was sent to rehab. He was not supposed to be making any calls, but he called the church secretary almost daily, then he signed himself out. Our church wanted him gone, so they transferred him and gave him 2 churches. When he left he stooled the identity of another church employee and opened up credit cards in his name. The church did nothing to him, he is still preaching
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Renee franks
Jesus is not for everyone. No one is a sacrifice and a world against God is the real dream. So leave him alone and find something else to do
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William Mullins
Schism is the only answer. When your church has no respect for you or those you love, it's time to get out. There are plenty of progressive faiths that are willing to welcome you.
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Eagle Alum
Long ago I attended the American University in Washington, DC, a school owned by the Methodist Church. It amazed me that students at the time were not required to attend services or take religious classes. The school was incredibly open to a variety of ideas. And now a Church which was once so welcoming to so many has turned inward. I'm profoundly disappointed.
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Kendall Odum
Keep in mind that it was the International UMC that voted against the One Church plan. The American delegation voted to accept the gay community by a wide margin. Some of the overseas conferences are from parts of the world where secular law calls for execution of gays. Also keep in mind that by UMC rules (by-laws constitution, whatever), the North American Book of Discipline is voted on by all divisions of the Church, and can only be amended by a majority of the world-wide vote. The various overseas factions, such as African, Asian, etc., have their own Book of Discipline which is completely independent of outside votes. That is the rub, so to speak. Seems like the American Church gave a way their autonomy with that rule.
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Eagle Alum
Thank you. This is very helpful.
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Bill Fox
There is still a Protestant Church that follows the Bible. For those who are interested. "1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, the verbally abusive, and swindlers will not inherit the kingdom of God. Some of you once lived this way. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."
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pjmarengo
Jesus's Apostle John: God didn't sacrifice his Son to judge the world, but to save it. Methodists: Pay no attention to that bearded man in the robes; he doesn't know what he's talking about.
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David Atkins
Acts Chapter 15 relates what happened at the "Jerusalem Conference," when the early church decided Gentiles need not follow Jewish law to become Christians. They had seen how God gave the Holy Spirit to Gentiles as well as Jews.
I know LGBTQ+ persons who have the gifts and grace to serve God, some as clergy and others as laity. Yet my beloved United Methodist Church has chosen to retain hurtful language in our Book of Discipline which says "the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching." I believe scripture is clear that we must not discriminate against those who God works through.
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Lyn
Religion is an opinion. From that “belief” system other opinions are made about all kinds of things. What you can eat, who you can marry, how often you observe religious congregation, how you observe marriage, the age of consent for marriage, how you worship, where you worship, who you worship, etc.
I will say it again. Religion is an opinion. It’s not fact based like, say for example, algebra. Or even arithmetic. If a particular religion has the OPINION that gay people are unacceptable, you don’t have to approve of their opinion. But why would you want to be around these people? There are so many denominations that do accept gay persons, I don’t know why anyone would want to hang with bigots. Or, should I say, people who have a different opinion than you. It’s their loss, right?
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preacher richard h.
Opinion . So You wee there between 2 n 5000 years ago. did you enjoy the miracle's JESUS performed? You call people Bigots because they follow the word of GOD. I have yet to see a Christian call homosexuals Names but you don't agree with them so they are bigots, Unreal. im sure you are a democrat
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pjmarengo
The Methodist Church needs to now change its motto, “Open hearts, open minds, open doors.” This is now officially not the church's credo. Merely a feel-good euphemistic catch phrase to make smug hypocrites feel good about themselves.
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Preacher Man
The Bible clearly denounces homosexual activity. How can any homosexual want to participate in a religion that condemns their chosen lifestyle? To me, it's obvious: they don't want to participate as much as they want to infiltrate and destroy from within.
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Secretary3rd
If one church does not change to reflect the views of those that attend that place, start your own church. Walk out and take your wealth with you. $700 and a IRS application and you can start you own church.
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Monrovia
The Bible was written for people and by people. Men are related to sisters, cousins, uncles, nieces, nephews, sons, daughters and especially Mothers. Mothers who witnessed sodomy of their sons, depreciation of their spirits and degradation of their manhood. Mothers whose only hope was to cry out in agony to a Supreme Being for and end to the anguish generated by the reprobate.
Mothers who knew in their soul and were able to judge the difference between right and wrong even though they were not allowed to vocalize it the silent prayers do not go unheard. I love my Church even if it don't love me. There must be righteous judgement somewhere in this world. All cannot be lost.Minister Hicks
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John Lobello
I would like to say this on behalf of homosexuality: you can take let's say 10 homosexuals, line them up in a straight line, and I can honestly say that each one of those homosexuals will be JUDGED DIFFERENTLY from the next one by the Almighty God through Jesus Christ. ONLY OUR LORD has the final say at the Judgement, and ONLY OUR LORD KNOWS what is in the Human Heart of a person. We don't..Some people look mighty Pious on the Outside, but on the Inside they are full of Hypocrisy..And some people look like Losers,, Failures, and Uglly on the Outside, while on the Inside, their HEARTS are PURE and Righteous..."Judge Not, lest ye be Judged."
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Lionheart
Don't worry John. As an atheist I have a belief also, and that is, you will be perfectly okay just being who you are. Enjoy your life just giving love. Love is all there really is! If you don't believe me, come and see my dog. He's has no education, he has no religious belief system, he doesn't understand religious blackmail of a judgement, or a hell, but he loves me unconditionally. Black labs matter! ?
?♥️
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Howard
Hi Lionheart. I have a hard time understanding what an atheist is doing on a religious site. Shouldn't you be with the evolutionist and those that want abortion in all secular things that are contrary to biblical beliefs? I'm also amazed A bout your love of love. For the Bible says God is love. Here you are again, diving into the Bible?Surely there's a discussion group that follows Darwin, or are you only on here to try and discourage those of us that think we are Christian to become followers of the unChristian? Maybe we're supposed to be trying to indoctrinate you? Peace.
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Lionheart
No problem Howard. You’re obviously not alone in your understanding from comments I read on this wonderful blog. I actually don’t see this as a religious site. I tend to see it more as a spiritual/love-of-our-fellow-man site where people can express their views of how they interpret what they see love means to them relative to the topic at hand.
I do like to delve into passages of that book you call the Bible just to open peoples minds of what it contains. Many seem to just look at the “nice” things it contains and forget about the blood, gore, hell and damnation stuff from a jealous, infanticidal, pestilential god. And that’s okay if they want to honor and revere all of that stuff, but it’s certainly not for me.
You are right though, in that I do follow logic, and reason, believing in evolution.
My intention is not to discourage anyone, merely make my own points of view as I see it, just as others do.
Thank you for your thoughts though and letting me help you understand my part in this blog.
Love really does exist among atheists. It’s not just for those who see themselves as religious, as I’m sure my dog would testify if he could speak, but he does show it all the time. Love exists in the atheistic animal realm, not just with homo-sapiens.
?❤️
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Howard
Apparently Lion, you fail to consider that the Bible is a history Showing God's dealing with a faithless people for many years, and the things He did with them trying to Turn them into a righteous nation. So you don't like it that he didn't pull any punches?
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John Owens
I would pretty much agree with most of what you say, John Lobello. Some people want to create DEGREES of sin in their minds and sub-cultures, but those degrees only exist in the minds of humans. I mean, throwing a dirty look at someone is not as bad as throwing a brick at them, but spiritually, it is.
I guess people who live in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones, and we ALL live in glass houses when it comes to not being perfect.
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Arnaldo Garcia
Many religions, must update their positions, be more tolerant and humane
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preacher richard h.
What your saying Church elders Must Change what they believe to be GODS word in order to be complacent to Groups of Sinners with guilty feelings for performing acts against nature Perhaps they should rewrite the Holy Bible with passages to celebrate Homosexuality.
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Minister RVW
Although one could interpret the vote to indicate continued discrimination, the actual vote was to accept or reject the One Church Plan. I read that plan and will confine my comment to it.
I found the plan a plausible compromise, allowing for individual churches and clergy to use their own convictions to determine their choices. I'm sorry it wasn't accepted.
Minster Bob
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Howard
That still creates a problem Robert. To go the way the secular churches have went, the Methodist Would have to quit using the Bible that they put in the churches, and they would have to change their own doctrine. If you're not going to be true to the Bible, do like other religions have done, write the Bible to suit your needs. When I go to church they don't ask me what I am. Those that are different can come the same way I do. Hopefully, if they are members, they read the church doctrine. I have no bone to pick with them, but if they wish to pursue their course that is contrary to biblical teachings and be married in what they consider is a Christian church, without even research I can name two mainstream churches that would do so for them. To ask a church to change their doctrine and the church beliefs, when they know doing so is opposite to what the Bible shows, to fulfill your own desires, surety is not directed by God. .I Would suppose you are aware that if it wouldn't have been for the overseas Vote, the one church plan Would have past in the United States. So where does that leave the rest of us? I really don't know.
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Ed
Hey, get a clue, ya liberal dopes running this site: Methodist Church. Not a cake shop [and note how they make a circus of Christian bake shops, but ignore MUSLIM shops that refuse THE SAME THING!]. Not Hobby Lobby! An actual CHURCH! That means that if they follow The Bible, which is "The Word of God," then condoning homosexual behavior is a very bad sin. Maybe you should remember that the hypocrisy goes BOTH WAYS!
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John Owens
The title is mis-stated.
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Howard
Hi John. I do assume that you say the title is misstated because it says the church is discriminating against gays. To me that is true, it is not discriminating. If any thing is doing the discriminating, then it must be the Bible. I realize this is a hard pill for many to swallow, either we accept the Bible as the word of our God Yahweh, or We need to write our own. Some churches had done this and changed what wording they don't agree with, or they feel is miss quoted. I am amazed at those people that blame the Methodist church for what the Bible actually states in both the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament.I can see no end to this argument with those that refuse to accept the Bible as the word of God. I have no argument with them, but if this is a religious site, based on the book that we know as the Bible, Then we must let the Bible speak . Howard
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John Owens
Yes, Howard. Yahweh doesn't change. I think it is in Isaiah 8:20? "To the Law and the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."
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Howard
Hi John. I am truly surprised by those that claim the Methodist church is discriminating against gays and lesbians when they follow the Bible. It appears that those that don't agree with the Bible should quit using it. Either you accept the Bible as the word of God or is just another book and you can change it any way you like. I think perhaps John, what you meant is that this post that the Methodist church is discriminating is a title misstated. If that is the case we totally agree. Many of the mainstream churches have rolled over to appease those that complain that their doctrine didn't match up with present day values. It's a sad day for religion that is based on the Bible.
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John Owens
They are not "discriminating" against gays. They are just not changing their whole razon d'etre to please the gays. There is a big difference.
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Howard
AMEN
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ZobVA
That's just baloney. The United Methodist Church has always promised, "Open hearts, open doors, open minds." Now they have apparently amended their motto to, "Open hearts, open doors, open minds... except for men and women unlucky enough to have been born gay." I'm waiting for someone to point out where Jesus excluded gays from His love, grace and acceptance. It seems to me that many of today's Christians are guilty of the sin of Pride and arrogance. Although ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God, for some reason they seem to think that THEIR sins are somehow not as bad as those of other people so they can exclude them from the fellowship of God. This is not basic Bible doctrine. This is the ugly side of humanity, not the unconditional Christian love of Christ.
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preacher richard h.
Being Homosexual is a choice, Just like pedophilia They are upholding GODS word in the Bible you don't lay with the same sex
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Lionheart
Oh dear Richard. So, would I be correct then that you totally support your god to stone people to death for not keeping the sabbath day holy?
You also must totally agree with your god to uphold slavery...correct?
If not, what edicts by your god do you not agree with, and don’t comply with?
I look forward to your very intelligent reply.
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preacher richard h.
to lionhart GOD Gave us Jesus in the New Testament to show us the ONLY way to be saved Jesus told the crowd let he who is without sin cast the first stone since he was without sin he told her to Go And SIN NO MORE,
Before Jesus, GOD Demanded those actions because that was how we atoned for Sin It is NOT what you AGREE WITH. You have to have faith in All the New Testament because its all about the LORD n SAVIOR. n Salvation
Also IF GOD wanted his people in slavery WHY Did he lead them out of it.??
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Lionheart
To Richard
Wrong! I don’t have to believe in any fictional book just because you do.
Your Jesus, if he ever existed at all, didn’t put any caveats on beating slaves. (Luke 12:47), or murdering nonbelievers (Luke 19:27) either.
Try not to be so gullible with your religion and demonstrate if you can that your God is real. Until then, your comments are all relying on fallacy, and a really weird belief structure, that many other religions have, all claiming to believe in the one true god. None of which have yet been proven.
The Sun god sounds pretty cool though. At least I can see the sun everyday and know for a surety that it’s there. But in reality, I doubt that’s a god either, don’t you?
?❤️
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John Owens
Babies aren't born gay. That's hogwash.
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ZobVA
Hard-core, genetic-disputing, factual science deniers are mentally ill. Seriousy.
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Natalie
This is how the story goes G-d sends two angels to destroy Sodom. Lot welcomes them into his home, but all the men of the town surround the house and demand that he surrender the visitors that they may "know" them. Lot offers the mob his virgin daughters to "do to them as you please", but they refuse and threaten to do worse to Lot. The angels strike the crowd blind.
The angels tell Lot "...the outcry against its people has become great before the Lord, and the Lord has sent us to destroy it" (Genesis 19:13). The next morning, because Lot had lingered, the angels take Lot, Lot's wife, and his two daughters by the hand and out of the city, and tell him to flee to the hills. Lot says that the hills are too far away and asks to go to Zoar instead. Then G-d rains sulfur and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah and all the Plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground (Genesis 19:24-25). Lot and his two daughters are saved, but his wife disregards the angels' warning, looks back, and is turned into a pillar of salt.
In the book it also says the whole city had become sinful. now where in the love of the lord does it say homosexuality or lesbianism."NON NOWHERE" and what exactly does "Know" Them mean?. Why in all creation does everyone have to come down on anyone gay or trans etc. Hell I rather watch to people love each other, then two people kill each other.. What is wrong with this world it is the year 2021 by Julian standards and the year 5781.. oh wait a minute .. how can we have two different time dates? and the Chinese calendar goes even further back.
Now in interpretation of this by many scholars it reads: ("This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy"), interpreting the sin as arrogance and the lack of hospitality. Where does it say anything about anyone's sexuality?. I am Jewish, I have very extensive study of all religions. Because I personally wanted to compare notes as to say. The 3 things I remember most is "Judge ye not lest you be judged., For each will have to bear his own load., “You shall love the Lord your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” Since there is no perfect manor woman and everyone has an inclination to do evil "from his/or her youth", though manor woman is born sinless.
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Natalie
But many people don’t realize that over the past 2,000 years, this sacred text has changed a great deal. No "first edition" exists. What we have are copies, the first of which were made hundreds of years after the events supposedly took place. None of us was there we just have stories handed down.
For the first 100 to 200 years, copies of the Bible were made by hand … and not by professionals. This led to many errors, omissions, and — most importantly — changes. Also the fact many had changes made to suit their needs not those of the people.. How can we as a race of homosapian's, humans follow anything that has been so altered even we don't know the truth anymore?. Want more fun read the last 3 paragraphs of Revelations in the King James version unaltered as they say.
18.For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, G-d shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, G-d shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
How many editions, How many times has this book been rewritten by man who is imperfect.. As it was said not one of you, not one of you, are perfect for he who is without sin cast the first stone.. Everyone better look in a mirror.. and start answering for their own shortcomings and sins.. I know I have to answer mine own...
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My very own church here where I live preaches against homosexuality. When I tried to tell them that I am a lesbian, they wanted to pray over me. One of the elders said that some of his co-workers 'think' they are 'gay'. I love the preacher and the elders of my church, as they are wonderful people, but when I comes to this subject, they are hopeless. However, they do not discriminate against me, meaning casting me out, but they are sorry that I 'think' this way. They just have totally closed minds on this subject. Only the preacher, the three elders, and the church secretary are aware of what I am, none of the members have any of this knowledge. I have no idea of what their consensus would be.
Good people don't judge. I think you need to reconsider whether or not they are "good people".
Jim, I like reading your comments, and I think I understand what you mean, but this particular comment may deserve a caveat or two.
"Judge ye not" would be more accurately translated as "Do not condemn". Still, in another place, we are enjoined, "judge not by appearances, but judge righteous judgment." That is, make rational, balanced determinations.
We MUST have opinions, we have to make determinations, and we must have standards. I mean, a church cannot accept just anyone, regardless of their personal life. Neither can a motorcycle club, or a political party, or an employer, or a country club.
I'm not saying here that in this case they are right or wrong. I'm just saying, regarding your comment, that good people DO judge certain things. That is, they make decisions about things. That IS judgment. I mean, your statement implies that you are determining that they are not good people because they made a certain determination.
John, I see your point. There are several interpretations of the word "judging". I was suggesting to Ms. Young that perhaps she should not consider these people to be so "wonderful" when they think she is broken (they pray over her and are sorry she "think[s] this way"). That's not acceptance, but like Miss Young said, they are not casting her out... yet. I believe one of two things will happen. Either they will accept Miss Young, and other like her, as she is, or they will ask her not to return to their church. Right now, she is a piece of the puzzle that does not fit. How long do you think the church elders will tolerate that?
I think most would tolerate her from now on, if she doesn't make it an issue.
No one in any church is without fault, and most sensible people remember that most of the time. I have a couple of tattoos, and my people don't believe in them, but they don't give me a hard time about it, as long as I am not advocating everyone get tattoos. Some in our number smoke, although we do not believe that is a godly thing to do. We have had divorcés, single mothers, single fathers, I have been in an MC for quite some time, one pastor is a former prize-fighter, people from all walks of life.
Each of us struggles to find, and then walk on a golden path, and if we can encourage one another along the way, without betraying our deity, that is our duty in life.
John, I understand what you are saying, and I agree with much of it. But there is something you said that intrigues me: "I think most would tolerate her from now on, if she doesn't make it an issue."
You used the example that your church does not believe in tattoos. You have tattoos, and no one gives you a hard time about it as long as you don't advocate for others to get tattoos. Would you advocate that others have the right to do with their bodies as you have? Doesn't have to be tattoos. What about piercings? Style of clothing?
In Miss Young's church, you think she would be left alone if she doesn't make an issue out of being a lesbian. Okay, so she won't try to convert the women in the congregation into lesbians. Fair enough. What if she wants to marry her lesbian partner, marriage being something that everyone else in the church gets to enjoy? She's not advocating for anyone else do something. She would be advocating for herself to do what everyone else gets to do. My guess is her church would not allow it. What do you think?
And Miss Young, if you're reading this, I would love to hear your opinion too.
She is free to marry her lesbian partner, but not in a church that doesn't bless lesbian marriages. Homosexual couples are nothing new. The actual marriages are, but as far as I know, there have always been homosexual couples. If they didn't show up at church all hugging on one another, I really don't think it would be a problem in most churches. People don't typically pry into the friendships between attendees.
Exactly, John. And that's my point. It is not unreasonable for someone to want to get married in the church to which they belong. But I fear if Miss Young wanted to marry her partner in her church, I doubt they will let her. So does she really belong to that church, or do they just tolerate her presence because she willingly and happily puts money in the collection plate every Sunday?
Unless Miss Young can enjoy all the benefits and services the church offers (like every heterosexual member), then she really isn't considered a member of that church.
You also mentioned that it wouldn't be a problem as long as they weren't "all hugging on one another". I'm sure heterosexual couples are not engaging in steamy love sessions in the middle of the aisles. Why would anyone be concerned that a gay couple would do that? A person's sexual preference does not affect one's tendencies toward overt displays of affection.
No, I'm sorry, but I think a church has to accept you as you are. If they won't, they shouldn't beat around the bush about it. Say openly, but kindly. Once said, it's time to move on and find a church that is more accepting.
First, let me say "Thank You" to both of you for this civil discourse. You obviously do not agree, yet you argue intelligently and with compassion for each others views - Bravo! Second, my .02 is as follows; I became Ordained expressly because 2 dear friends that I have known for a decade or more asked me to marry them, as they wanted someone whom they knew, and knew their hearts! I was SO thrilled to do it! I do not regret it, and felt Blessed to be a part of this union - still do. My late daughter was homosexual, and I loved her no less, no differently than I do any of my other children. Their choices are their choices. I will 'stick' to Jesus' Supreme commandment "That we Love one another". These seems to be no shortage of earthly judges, and the only one that really counts in not of this world. Anyhow, Thank You. Bill Huffman
You are right, Jim. Heterosexuals aren't making at church during services. Nor at the pot-luck afterward. Part of church teaching is restraint, discretion, courtesy, privacy. Well, if they don't feel at home there, thanks to God and our founders, we live in a free country where they can seek the church where they feel comfortable. I think churches should be comfortable, but they cannot possibly be comfortable for everyone, because everyone is different. LGBTQ has to reinvent God and the church to be truly comfortable, and then, guess what? A lot of non-LGBTQ people will not be comfortable there. It's okay! They can go to the Methodist church, or some other! It's a free country! No hate, little crying, few fights, live and love.
Correct god pee judges and never looks again
Sorry, Renee, I have no idea what that means. Perhaps you could proofread before you post. Thanks.
I can't make sense of it, either.
The bible says to use Righteous Judgement on your neighbor. Or you could be tricked into sin
JIM D GOOD PEOPLE ARE NOT WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS WERE ARE. WE ARE ALL SINNERS FORGIVEN BY THE DEATH AND RESURRECTION OF JESUS THEREBY FORGIVING OUR SIN. JESUS AND THE APOSELES WERE CLEAR IF A PERSON WILL NOT REPENT THEN IT IS THAT THE CHRISTINS ARE TO NOT ASSOCIATE WITH THEM UNTIL THEY REPENT AND SIN NO MORE. NOW THE LGBTQ FOLKS CAN JUSTIFY RATIONALIZE AND DEMAND AND YELL THROW A FIT CLAAIM GOD LOVE EVERYONE WHICH HE DOES BT GOD ALSO IS A RIGHTGOUES GOD AND THATS WHY HE SENT JESUS TO DIE NOT SO WE CAN CONTINUE TO LIVE IN SIN. SO NO IT IS NOT CORRCT WHEN YOU STATE GOOD PEOPLE DONT JUDGE... SINNERS WHO ARE FORGIVEN ARE GIVEN DIRECTIONS ON WHAT TO DO . SO IF I WAS A PROSTITUTE AND ACCEPTED JESUS AS MY SAVIOR AND WENT TO CHURCH ON SUNDY BUT WAS OUT ON THE STREET ALL THE OTHER DAYS. THAT MAKES NO SENSE. SAME AS THE IDEA OF BEING GAY LESBEIN TRANS WHATEVER. TURN FROM YOUR SIN AND SIN NO MORE JESUS SAID.
Give it a break folks. Personally I find homosexuality unnatural.. Sin or no sin? I don't care! At least those that have the courage to come out of their closet should be admired by their courage. As a pastor it is not my place to pass judgement. That is left for the Father in Heaven for when we all stand before him and open wide our own closets and expose our own sin. Because we all have it. Sin that is. Jesus was the only perfect man to walk on earth. A challenge to all readers, are you willing to expose your own personal skeleton in the closet? To those that are not, shut up then! In the words of the Master, "Judge not let ye be judged." If you don't hold with the Methodist stance, seek spiritual support from another church. Heaven knows there are a slew out their that support the LGTBA philosophy.. Meanwhile I will consider LGTBA folks as friends when the opportunity arises. Accepting then as they are, Non-judgmental and embracing them as friends, warts and all!
All Homosapiens are bad you do not start creation this way, it’s more like demons in clothes that sadly we turned into humans because of Jesus shine... Son of god is not a man just confused for a minute or pretending to be ... Passover
Not sure if I understand you. Adam and Eve were sinless until the snake intervened. Tree of knowledge and all that? ??? Jesus was God become flesh. That is what the New Testament tells us. And in flesh Jesus remained pure. That's why his death on the cross was the atonement for all of our sins.
If you can actually somehow comprehend what you just wrote, then you should also be able to comprehend that if you believe no one created your god, in essence, you worship an atheist .....right?
Oooooo, cool Lionheart. I never looked at god from that perspective. An athiest! That's what happens when we (as humans) try to define something that cannot be defined. I've been enlightened!
Your views are ridiculous Homosexuals should not be force feeding Breeders their demented ways of life
:o) You are welcome to your opinion. I do hope most understood my message.
Please do some self-examination Richard, and ask yourself why you made an ad-hominem attack on the poster rather than explaining your own point of view in a civilized manner. It makes one wonder just how strong an argument you might actually have/not have when you resort to Trumpian language.
YOU ARE TOO FUNNY YOU CHASTISE THE POSTER FOR ATTACKING A POSTER THEN YOU YOURSELF ATTACKES THE POSTER BY USING THE LANGUAUGE OF "TRUMPIAN."? TOO MUCH
@ RENIE: I DECIDED TO SHOUT LIKE YOU DID IN MY REPLY TO YOUR NONSENSE. i DID NOT CALL ANYONE NAMES DESPITE YOUR DISINGENUOUS STATEMENT. i DESCRIBED THE LANGUAGE THAT THE POSTER USED AS "TRUMPIAN," A SIMPLE FACT. PLEASE LOOK UP THE PHRASE "AD HOMINEM" AND FIND OUT WHAT IT MEANS. THANK YOU.
I don't know of one single "breeder" who has been "force-fed" a gay life "way of life" (not that gay men and women life a different life than any other human beings). That would imply that you have somehow been forced to live as a gay person going against the way God made you. By the same token, you cannot force your "breeder" way of life on a man or woman that God made as a gay person. I would submit that it is you, sir, who are "demented in trying to justify your prejudices.
The bible is wrong on this I KNOW that the real GOD couldn't care less about it if you are gay or not. This is a man made rule of the times when the OT was it. The NT, Jesus did not mention homosexuality or even abortion in his recorded teachings. If it was that important, he would have let us know. Jesus did speak about sexual impropriety. He even spoke about adultery and came up on the side of the offender against her accusers.That leaves the rest against man made rules based on the belief at the time. So what is maddening is these so called christians who use their unbiblical beliefs about the bible to justify their prejudices and bigotry. For that, they should be rebuked.
Do what’s right... and leave the church. Jesus is not for everyone. God is love...
Jack G.. When you actually study the "don't judge lest you be judged", there is tremendous ignorance as to it's meaning. We are admonished by Paul to judge people. He did! This wording is used in a LEGAL sense as one who passes sentence. Down here on this planet, those who are appointed judges are the authorities given this authority to pass sentence. This authority was actually given to Moses. In fact, much of our judicial system comes right out the handbook of Moses given to him by God himself.
Now, as to homosexuality. Many people miss the point as to why Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed. I have asked this question to pastors and not one of them got it. Homosexuality did not destroy these cities. It was the fact that the spirit behind it (satanic) later called spirit of BAAL (a false god) stated it's purpose was to lift their throne above the Hebrew God. I have actually heard these very words spoken. God will not stand for anyone whose mission is to lift themselves higher than God. I know that bishops, elders cardinals popes, whatever you call them, are far more concerned with keeping paychecks and all of the benefits to placate to a false god and demonic spirits. Scripture says there will be a house cleaning, and it will start with his church. I do not use the LMNOP use to sugar coat over demonic spirits so they can be "accepted" as teachers and leaders, pastors and elders. Homosexuals told Lot that they wanted to rape the men (actually angels) who were in the house of Lot. Now, you cannot be of that mindset and still think you will get away with doing whatever you desire to the ELECT of God, without some form HELL coming down. Militant homosexuals flaunt what they do. They have no regard for others in the church at all. Their main focus is on them, period. They are the haters and use a tactic I call, " DEFLECT and REDIRECT". They cannot win a logical argument, so they take the blame off of themselves, and claim all who will not accept their behavior are ALL wrong. They use future children as a product of our hatred, and that is their lie They focus on young people who lack intellect and wisdom to understand meanings of words. They fall prey to marketing by those very tactics I just mentioned.
Scripture says that ,"the kingdom suffers violence and the violent take it by force". God keeps telling believers to call it what it is, keep loving but do not allow homosexual marriage and do not allow homosexual church leadership. PRIOD.
Hi Jack. Most people agree that a lot of the old testament is not binding on Christians. Several things were cleansed by Jesus. The apostle Paul had some pretty strong comments on homosexuals. these were also mentioned in the laws in Leviticus. Wherever people want to go from here is their business, but what Paul said is still in the Bible.I am not in favor of adding or detracting from any of the Scriptures, and I am not smart enough to be able to translate them myself. If I am being let down the garden path, so be it.The Bible says what the Bible says.