The United Methodist Church is currently facing some difficult questions on the issue of homosexuality. While most Protestant denominations have become more accepting in recent years, the Methodist Church continues to condemn homosexuality, claiming it is "incompatible with Christian teaching". As the policy stands right now, gay ministers can actually be prosecuted by church trial and removed from their positions. This high-profile issue provided the backdrop for the 2016 Methodist Global Conference, which occurred earlier this month. Held every four years, the conference brings representatives from across the country and around the world together to discuss potential changes to church policy. Notably, this was the first conference held since the U.S. Supreme Court legalized same-sex marriage in 2015. The huge strides made in gay rights over the past few years drew heightened attention to the conference, and everyone wondered whether the church's leadership would decide to change its controversial stance.
Clergy Members Come Out
In a surprise announcement the day before the conference, over 100 ministers and local leaders within the Methodist Church came out as gay, lesbian, or bisexual. Together, they signed a public letter denouncing the church's rules which force them to hide their sexual orientations and gender identities in order to avoid punishment. The clergy members wrote:
"While some of us have been lucky to serve in places where we could serve honestly and openly, there are others in places far more hostile, who continue to serve faithfully even at tremendous cost to themselves, their families, and yes, even the communities they serve, who do not receive the fullness of their pastor's gifts because a core part must remain hidden."
Methodist pastor David Meredith took his protest even further in blatant violation of church policy, he decided to marry his boyfriend of 28 years. While these protests received significant attention, its tough to see the minds of church leadership being so easily swayed many of them remain convinced that homosexuality is a sin. However, the biggest factor involved in the decision may be the actual demographic makeup of the Methodist Church's membership. While the U.S. has become much more progressive on the issue of gay rights, almost half of all Methodists are from other countries many of which have negative views toward gay people
Progress at Home
The U.S. has come a long way on gay rights in the past thirty years it wasn't long ago that homosexuality was widely viewed as a "disorder" that needed to be "cured". Although there are still those who believe this, attitudes seem to be changing. As a recent example, when former Republican presidential candidate John Kasich was in San Francisco on the campaign trail, he was asked if he believed people are born gay. His response was "you know, probably". While not a definitive statement, Kasich's comments are indicative of evolving sentiments in the U.S. especially apparent in politics. It's worth noting that as of 2016, all 50 U.S. states have at one point or another been served by openly LGBT politicians. However, progress on equal rights has been much slower in other countries.
Resistance from Abroad
In Africa, Methodist membership is over 5 million and counting. While American Methodists are diverse enough to include both George W. Bush and Hillary Clinton as members, those in Africa tend to unite around socially conservative views. Being gay is much more taboo than in the U.S, and homophobia is rampant some African countries even treat it as a serious crime. Convincing the African delegations at the conference to compromise on their deeply-held views will likely be impossible.
A Coming Split?
Ultimately, the United Methodist Church is facing an identity crisis. There are plenty of liberal Methodists who have been trying for years to change the church's policies toward gay people. At the same time, a large portion of its membership would sooner split from the church entirely than see its doors opened to gay people. There may be no right answer, no perfect solution. With LGBT members now in open defiance, the pressure is on. Either the church will continue to swim against the current and stand by its anti-gay policies, or it will change its stance and become more inclusive. Either way, the church is at risk of breaking up into different factions. What do you think? Should the Methodist Church change its policies toward gay people? Imagine you were asked to speak at the conference what would your message to church leaders be?
*Update 5/31/16*
Issues surrounding gay membership played a major role at the 2016 Methodist Global Conference. In the end, church leaders were unable to come to an agreement one way or the other. However, pressures to act were obviously quite strong. Amid serious concerns over a potential split, church leaders did come to a compromise of sorts they agreed to appoint a commission to study the issue intensively. Realistically, they're only postponing the inevitable.
282 comments
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Willie
The United Methodist Church touts itself as having a "big tent" approach to accepting a diversity of people. I believe that the UMC will adopt a "don't ask, don't tell" policy, and keep its stance that homosexuality is against Christ's teachings.
As a long time member of the UMC it bothers me that the General Board refuses to take a stance on most issues. Whatever the conference decides I'm sure they won't deviate from their lack of spine.
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Brian
Jesus was probably gay. He went around with 12 men and never married. Just sayin'
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Jim Novak
Brian maybe you are sitting in the sun without a hat for a long time and image that idea in your head the 12 apostles were taught by Jesus and Displined so that when Jesus was rose To go back to sit at the right hand of the father the church had leaders to help grow the church and the Holy Spirit was sent to guide and show the early church how to grow and make more followers of our lord and savior Jesus Christ
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Rev paul
Man what was you smoking that made you think Jesus was gay
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ed knisley
Against Christ's teachings? Show me where this tidbit is found!
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Rev paul
So Willie you want people to swap the truth for a lie
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Lee Boutell
Didn't Jesus accept all people? Aren't we all imperfect? Are there any non-sinners among the people? If a religion is truly Christian there would be no question about accepting gays or any other sincere soul.
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pastor mary
absolutely. It is no ones place or right to judge others. God doesn't make mistakes, I believe you cannot be close to god if you do not accept others as they are. Inside and out.
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Cay Raymond
Jesus accepted all in the context that they repent and change their behavior. "Go and sin no more".
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Mike Cornell-Stevens
I agree but what you are saying is that being gay is a behavior that is in need of repentance which it is not! Being gay is not a choice just like being straight is not a choice. It is who God created us to be and God does not make mistakes. The Bible has been misinterpreted so many times where this is concerned and I am tired of people using misinterpreted scriptures to promote hate and ignorance all in the name of God. Truth starts at home and in our churches and it's time fellow men and women of God stand up and clarify this issue once and for all! The LGBT community has been pushed away from the church and Gods love for far too long. Christians today need to stop speaking for God, He can do that all by Himself!
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Kelly G Antwine
And just what is sin? Is being born homosexual a sin? I think not! God/Great Spirit or whatever you choose to call The Almighty created each of us perfect and loves us that way. The real task is learning to love ourselves and each other the same way God does!
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Rev paul
Thanks cay your right
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David M. LeBlanc
While the Lord certainly allowed and encouraged all to approach him, the fundamental message of the gospel is to repent and accept the yoke of the kingdom of heaven. Meaning, "the kingdom is at hand, so repent, and turn back to God and His ways". Regardless of the social norms or ethics of the day, someone who considers him/herself to be a follower of Jesus should certainly exhibit compassion and love to all people, but their personal testimony should be a different moral standard than what is considered "normal" in the unbelieving world around us. If the moral standards of the leaders of the church is shameful to even an unbelieving but god-fearing population, something is terribly wrong. The apostle Paul had two "lines in the sand" which, in his view, disqualified a person from being considered a member of the community of faith: idolatry and sexual immorality. An argument could also be made for dishonest business dealings. It is inconceivable that Paul would have endorsed welcoming a homosexual into his churches in good standing, and certainly would never have allowed one to be ordained into any form of leadership or shepherding role. This is not debatable according to the witness of scripture, regardless of how one may feel about homosexuality as a legitimate lifestyle. We are not to judge others, but when it comes to the oversight of the assembly it is entirely appropriate to establish rules and standards to which all must be in subjection. The alternative is to find another people group to associate with. The UMC is on the precipice of no longer being part of the community of faith.
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ed knisley
It may well have been that Paul had an issue himself with which he never really dealt! Oh, but for that thorn in the eye! Of course many hetero men seem to be in the same mindset as Paul. I often suggest that the "homophobic male," in particular, get to the bathroom or any other mirror and ask "...what is my problem." Self hatred is a terrible thing.
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David M. LeBlanc
So you're doctrinal position on Paul's rules for the churches he oversaw was that he hated himself and therefore is an unreliable source?
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Minister MARSHALL
I stand in agreement..Jesus loves all and calls on all of us for each situation.we are to be Sheppard of men,nomatter there situation,,i serve an AWSOME Lord....he loves all of us
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Jim Novak
Yes he does accept everyone lee but you must confess you are a sinner being. You can not be openly gay and be a church member the sin is acting upon those feelings by living a gay lifestyle this is a sin if a gay or lesbian promises to live a chasten life and be celibate and not practice the gay lifestyle then a church would have not reason not to accept that person but someone with a partner or the gay dating lifestyle and says they live that way 6 days a week then thinks if they come to church on Sunday that makes it okay is just plain wrong
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Bob Anderson
Jim...you really should belong to the Westboro Church...you would fit right in..
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Rev paul
Your right on that jim
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Rev paul
Good point jim
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hsw
So as long as a gay person spends their life denying who they are, you're OK with that? How about you promise to live a life of celibacy?
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Sam
It would be a very good step for them to change their doctorin on LGBTQ and except that love is love. How great this would be in moving forward and demonstrating to other homophobic and transphobic religions that God excepts all. We are all Gods children, not just a few .
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eric k
If a person is having a sexual relationship other than hetero he or she is doing an act against the christian faith, and must repent of this action to be properly accepted in to any christian church Methodist or any other. A individual can not continue this life style willingly. Read your bible it is written very plainly that God does not accept this activity.
The church needs to stop this politicly correctness, the sex act is against christiuan belief
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Susan
If Christianity is the religion founded by Jesus, then the New Testament describes our covenant with God. Homosexuality is condemned in the Old Testament. Jesus never spoke about it at all.
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Brother John
Spot on, Susan! Why Christians insist on defending the barbarity and immorality (and the god that created and condoned it) of the OT is beyond me. The NT has enough contradictions and lack of veracity to keep them relying on faith alone without the utter nonsense of the OT.
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Jim Novak
No Christianity is a personal faith between us and God man has turned Christianity into a religion. and a business venture
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hsw
The bible was written by men, with the limited understanding of the time. These same men believed the world was flat. The same bible that seems to prohibit homosexuality (which is not a choice or a "lifestyle" - it's how your god made them) also prohibits bacon - and definitely avoid that shrimp cocktail because it's prohibited as well. All of those prohibitions were based on either conditions (inability to properly cure or store certain foods, for example) that existed at the time. They have no relevance to the world we live in.
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Jim Novak
No God inspired a group of men to write down what God wanted to have us understand he use a bunch of men over thousands of years from different walks and backgrounds to convey the word of God so man can know how God wants us to live and what to believe about him
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Bob Anderson
God speaks to Jim and Jim spreads his venom.
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Rev paul
Not at all Bob Jim is right
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Lee Boutell
Eric, you can choose to go by the ancient Hebrew Old Testament with all its fire, brimstone, condemnation, judgment, and persecution of others. I choose to go by the words and actions of Christ, who said "Judge not, lest you be judged." It's not about political correctness, this discussion is about Christianity and whether we are accepting or not.
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Andrew
I could care less if any church accepts homosexuals, or if you don't want them to, but it's not "politically correct" to decide to accept different people into your church.
This abuse of this phrase is maddening. Otherwise, you have to accept people calling you a jerk for being discriminatory, otherwise when they call you a jerk, you have to accept it. Because if you complain, or disagree, you are being "politically correct" for not letting people call you for what you are.
See how that works? It's not "political correctness" to be polite or accepting of people. It's called "grace" and "manners".
I apologize for calling you a "jerk"; I was just trying to make a point. Peace -
Lawrence
People who judge other people will some day find themselves facing God as well, my Gay heart will pray for your unGodly soul...
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Lee
Those who judge others will not face God. They will go through a very wide gate and recall that Heaven is beyond the narrow gate, and God is in Heaven
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Richard
Gay sex happens all the time, eric. What does God do about it? Nothing! Maybe he's up in the sky, arms crossed, going 'tsk tsk' and shaking his head...
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Rev paul
Agreed eric
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Michael Bryant
The christian doctrine has been around over 2000 years . All other established religions also agree on the pretty much the same things . Killing , stealing , lying , coveting , disrespect of GOD for most and yes same sex or animal sex relations have always been looked at as wrong .
However today we are all more en-lightened .... so we know better then to listen to what was considered moral and godly in the past .
if you believe that homosexuality is wrong you are bigot and a homophobe
I am sorry , but Christians all over the world are not afraid of Homosexuals ... We place our fear and trust in the word of God as it has been passed down thru the ages. If anything we fear for you and your position with God himself
WE MIGHT JUST BE RIGHT ... have any of you considered that as a possibility or are you too busy trying to change , the schools , the government , the family unit as it has been thru history , OH and yes now get into the church and Change faith itself ???
What happened to a free society ... what happened to separation of Church and state ??? SO next after the legalization of Gay marriage will be the government telling the church what it can preach ???
welcome to the US of Russia .... sorry but that is how this is playing out ...
YOU MIGHT BE WRONG ... think about it what if you are ????
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Susan
Each church must make its own decision on these matters. When you talk about the Christian Church, which one are you talking about? There is no such thing.
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hsw
Please show me where Christ condemned homosexuals. I've never been able to find that part. Christians are, by definition, followers of Christ, right?
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Brother John
I didn't see an answer to that question which has been posed several times, hsw, so I did a little research and found this….
"It is technically true that Jesus did not specifically address homosexuality in the Gospel accounts; however, He did speak clearly about sexuality in general. Concerning marriage, Jesus stated, “At the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh[.]’ So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate” (Matthew 19:4–6). Here Jesus clearly referred to Adam and Eve and affirmed God’s intended design for marriage and sexuality."
I also found this….“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26
Peter and his partners (James and John) abandon their wives and children to follow Jesus. Luke 5:11
What a joy for Christian women. Wives must submit to their husbands "in every thing" as though they were Christ. "For the husband is the head of the wife." Ephesians 5:22-24
Again, wives take note of Colossians 3:18
Wives are to use "chaste conversation, coupled with fear." They are not to braid their hair, wear gold, or put on any "apparel." They are to do these things in imitation of the "holy" women of the Old testament who were "in subjection to their won husbands: even as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him Lord." 1 Peter 3:2-6
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Susan
Remember who wrote these books. It wasn't God or Jesus. Like all reporters, some things likely got added as well as subtracted. The Bible is a great inspiration but it is not gospel truth (pun intended.)
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Minister Danna Pittman
Hi, This is Minister Danna Pittman. In The Book of Genesis Chapter one and two, God created male and female on the sixth day, however, on the seventh day He created man and woman to be Holy; who were Adam and Eve. Therefore, I tell you the truth that God is no respect a person.
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Lee
I think that God rested on the seventh day. I think also that you are seeing Adam as male and Eve as female in a physical world, and if that were true, then Eve would have lived a certain number of years and died as Adam did. Eve did not die in the Genesis and neither did Able.
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devonnoll
If you go further in Matthew, you will find a discussion of divorce by Jesus and it is the only place where he comes even remotely close to discussing homosexuality. Jesus answered the question of whether it was better not to marry than divorce, and he said "This teaching does not apply to everyone, but only to those to whom God has given it. For there are different reasons why men cannot marry: some, BECAUSE THEY WERE BORN THAT WAY (caps for emphasis); others because men made them that way; and others do not marry for the sake of the Kingdom of heaven. Let him who can accept this teaching do so" (Matthew 19:11-12). Jesus acknowledges that homosexuality is a condition to which someone is born, not a lifestyle or a personal choice, and that is the only place where it can be found in the teachings of Jesus. Since we are all children of God and God imbued us with His Spirit to give us life, perhaps condemning God's Creations should be something that a church might want to reconsider as being holy or righteous.
In Jesus's time, gay men did not marry because of social restrictions in consideration of inheritance issues, so gay men did not seek out marriage because of the stigma and the inability of such unions to produce children. Divorce was allowed under Jewish law, but Jesus set the only standard as a wife being unfaithful, so in today's society where 75% of men cheat and 65% of women do so, apparently the acceptance of adultery is more prevalent in the Methodist Church than homosexuality. And with divorce being at the 50% plus rate in this country, it seems that the churches should be close to empty by now. I grew up in the Methodist Church, and our assistant pastor divorced his wife in favor of a college girl half his age with whom he had been having an affair. The church's response: move them to a different parish, not excommunication or condemnation. The jilted wife - she left the church behind.
The New Testament was an edited version of a variety of teachings from different people, but predominantly it is the writings of Paul, a man the early Christians considered a heretic and someone who took the teachings he got from third parties and turned to appeal to the Greeks and the Romans while infusing them with his orthodox Jewish views. Of the 27 books in the New Testament, he wrote 14, the 4 Gospels and Acts are compilations of other texts by 4 writers who never knew Jesus, and the rest are from James and Peter, the only letters from anyone who actually knew Jesus, only account for 8 books in the New Testament. It seems that a political treatise written by bishops selected by a Roman Emperor might want to avoid anything that might undercut the Roman rule, should be taken with a grain of salt as being the Word of God, and the entire Bible should be perceived through a lens not of just faith, but of social and cultural realities from the time it was written. And it should stop being used as justification for bigotry, ignorance, and hate.
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Susan
It is certainly a relief to see someone who is well acquainted with history as well "doctrine,".
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Rev paul
The Bible says in glations CH 5 no homosexual shall enter the kingdom of heaven the only way they can is repent and turn away from this act
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hsw
There is no word in the original texts that translates to homosexuals. It's another case of men deciding it means what they want it to mean. The concepts of homosexuality, bisexuality, and other such concepts were not in common use until literally thousands of years later.
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Michael Bryant
No Susan to be clear the term I used was christian doctrine in regard the matter of homosexuality in general . It is a fact that all christian denominations that consider The Bible the inspired word God do feel this way. Catholics, Baptists, Assembly of GOD, church of Christ ect all fall under this category. Add Muslims also so it isnt only the Christians that are the issue . It pretty much is all people that believe in God in general and look to the Bible or the Koran as his inspired word
when I mention Church I am talking about the actual church described in The Bible ( The body of Christ , the actual total of all believers in the christian doctrine ) .
As far as everyone deciding their own way on this matter goes , look at it this way . If the Bible and Traditional Christian faith is wrong here , then the consequences are only part of this life time .
But as I asked previously WHAT IF MODERN THOUGHT ON THIS MATTER IS WRONG ????. if so then the consequences are eternal . Believing that Homosexuality is wrong is an opinion based on faith . It does not make one a bigot , it just means we dont agree . Our society has been making this issue a matter of law for many years , and now it is working to make this an issue of what is and isnt right for one to believe.The move here is to legislate faith . They have worked thru the government , the schools and the media . The church is the next and last step .
People that dont see this coming are lying to themselves and don want to deal with the reality of the matter . It is easier to call those that dont agree bigots or homophobes .
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Susan
Christian is a big word encompassing too many different beliefs. That's my only point here. What indeed if the old way of thinking is wrong? The Old Testament also prescribes stoning for adultery and condemns those who eat sea food.
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Henrietta Miller
Yep, you are right, and it takes us to a whole new level of morality where anything goes!
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Alvin Jones
I have two views for this subject. First; accept people in a spiritual environment for who or what they are. Second; why does your sexual orientation be displayed or acknowledged? What is done behind closed (or open) doors is between you and the God of your understanding!
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hsw
Because it's rude to leave your spouse at home when you go to church.
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Mike Le Master
Well i dont believe it is an issue of who can say who can do what, Everyone knows what the Lord has said on this subject 100% and there is no other statement mention in any text or scripture to the contrary. We as members of the Clergy have a responsibility to guide the people in our charge as he would do it, if you cant follow his lead in what this is about in that one area but you follow ALL others then YOU will face judgement when the time comes and if you are willing to face that then who is to say what you can or cant do except the Lord himself. It is not up to us as associates or fellow clergymen to voice our Ideas or our thoughts on this matter , follow the spirit and let him guide you and counsel with him and let his words be your guide as you go forward as only he can do.
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hsw
ALL? Do you avoid shrimp cocktails, pork, recipes mixed in the wrong container, sex with your wife when she's "unclean," and anything other than natural fabrics - none of those "blended" things? Those who claim to follow the bible have been cherry-picking since the beginning.
I believe those who choose to be inclusive and not judge others are following their faith better than those who pick and choose which parts of the bible they will follow and which they won't.
Love one another... Do unto others... Or keep on judging - which your book says is not your place.
Peace.
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Susan Colmenares
I don't know who you are or what you believe but you have given one of the most Christian responses I have seen here. Peace.
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hsw
I'm going to take that as a compliment with the caveat that it's something I've never been "acused" of before lol
I spent most of my life trying to "get" the faith of my family and in my 50s finally had to accept that Christianity is not my personal path.
Having said that, I'm betting after years of intense study and many hours of discussions with bible scholars that I have a better understanding of the book than most who claim the name.
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Susan
Well, I would have put the word Christian in quotes but I was hoping to startle a few hypocrites. I too, have left "the faith" but I was educated in religious schools all the way through grad school. I know the Bible very well and the teachings of Jesus have very little to do with contemporary Christianity and everything to do with Paul--someone who never met him. Again, thanks for the comment.
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Linda Voges
Kudo's to both of you (hsw and Susan)
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Brother John
Actually Mike, no one knows "what the Lord said". The Bible was written by men, not by "the Lord" Some of what "the prophets" wrote was based on what they recalled from their dreams and visions. Other books were based on stories that had been circulating for decades and centuries beforehand. More importantly, there is no original Bible, only copies of copies of copies… many mere fragments, with many thousands of textual variations, errors, omissions and contradictions amongst them. It does contain some truths and wisdom, as do a multitude of other books, but there's no reason to give it any special authority, particularly when it comes to moral and social guidance.
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Dr. David
Well said Brother John. But good luck trying to get that view accepted in a society under the thumb of the religion industry. There is too much power and money at stake.
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Tom
I believe the Methodist church should do whatever it feels is the correct thing to do in this case. I am not a Methodist and, like anyone else who isn't it a Methodist, it is none of my business what they decide to do. To me, part of the problem is that there are too many cooks and that just spoils the stew. Let's try not telling anyone else what to do and things will sort themselves out just fine. That applies to every aspect of life. Churches are membership organizations and their members will decide what is appropriate behavior for their membership. Those who admit members should nothing to say.
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Brother John
It's logical that one would simply ask the old adage, "what would Jesus do?", as Christian churches are all supposed to be promoting and following his teachings. As I understand it there are no homophobic statements attributed to Jesus. Going back to the O/T is ridiculous unless we're to adopt the ownership of slaves, stoning disobedient children and adulterers to death and dozens of other barbaric laws that are not permitted or accepted in a today's western society. Selectively quoting some verses and ignoring others amounts to picking low hanging fruit. Mosaic law wasn't for Christians as they didn't exist before the supposed resurrection of Jesus. Where does Jesus condemn homosexuality and what justification does any Christian have for doing so?
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Susan
Amen
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hsw
I've been asking that question for years - amen.
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bcalvert9
From a Humanist church that knows nothing of the Bible. What a joke.
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hsw
So you're here because...
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Brother John
There are thousands of Christian denominations to choose from and many of them are actually practicing what they preach regarding LGBT folks. Although denominations that exhibit bigotry and ignorance should be publicly shamed, they have every right to maintain their beliefs, no matter how archaic they may be. Likewise, all Christians have every right to reject them and find a church that welcomes them, their beliefs and their chosen lifestyles. Here's a few of them….
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT-affirming_Christian_denominations#North_America
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Tom
Well said, John.
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Susan
Very well said and thanks for posting info on so many inclusive denominations.
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Brother John
That's what these discussions are all about Susan. It's amazing how many people have adopted familial connections whether they be a church affiliation, a doctor, political party and others with little investigation into alternatives. This is particularly true with the ease of an internet connection.
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hsw
It's not only amazing how they've adopted them - it's amazing how they stand by them even when it turns out that they are not really aligned with those they have chosen. The familiar, even when it no longer feels good or right, is still often more comfortable and less scary than making a change.
I'm a good example. I tried until I was 45 to "get" the faith of my family, even though I was deeply uncomfortable even as a child. My fear of being "other" in a majority Christian society led me to keep trying, even pretending, even after years of failure to make any connection with the church or its tenets, regardless of denomination.
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Brother John
Here's a link to an openly honest and heartfelt essay by the daughter of the Christian apologist Matt Slick. The entire piece is well worth reading, but the last 7 paragraphs may capture the feelings of some on this site who were raised in fundamentalist households.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/07/15/the-atheist-daughter-of-a-notable-christian-apologist-shares-her-story/
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Alcoboy
That's the thing. This is something that Methodist leadership needs to decide. If the decision is made to exclude homosexuals from membership, then LGBT Methodists need to form their own denomination where they can worship according to their own conscience.
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Susan
Great post, John. After spending a good chunk of my life in Roman Catholic educational institutions, I certainly agree that apologetics increases the ability to think critically--which in turn creates doubt. Thank God.
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Ezra
Honestly, I am fine with same sex marriage and legal rights. No problem. Those who love each other should be able to function as a couple. However, the question of whether the Methodists should accept gays should not be a question. A church should be allowed to follow its own doctrine just as I should be able to follow my own values by being able to either join the church or to walk away. Being a member of a church is not compulsory.
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Walter Newman
It's not the person i'm against, it's their practice, you are welcome just don't bring your abomination with you.
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Restrepo
Do you have sex during church service? NO, of course not. Neither do gay people. They keep it in their bedrooms, just like the rest of us. One wonders why you're so fixated on the "abomination", when it's nowhere to be seen -- unless you go looking for it! (in which case, maybe you're afraid to admit that you're curious?)
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Rev paul
I agree walter
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K R
Let people live their life already. Is religion all about fighting and persecuting people that are different? Can't people figure out right from wrong yet? Everyone is created equal period. And no if something is discrimination it is not ok to hold onto and practice those beliefs. How will the world ever change if hate never dies?
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Shayne Ohlsen
The most important thing Jesus said which was the final commandment to His followers, John 13:34.
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RF
The Methodist Church should NOT in any way, shape or form allow gay people or transgenders into their fold. Take the time to go back and read the Methodist doctrine from 1905. The Methodist church was the most evangelical church as a "mainstream" denomination. Where in the world has this denomination gone over the past century. Obviously liberals and the desire to be something it's not due to lack of growth, it has allowed Satan to seep into its fiber and has gone completely downhill. It is truly sad to see.
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James A. Stroup
Why is Gay and Lesbian an issue with a bible believing congregation. The bible is very clear that homosexuality is an abomination.. Paul states in Romans 1:25, 26,27 - For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. v 26( For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural. v 27( And in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. NAS
Christ in John 16:13 states that the Holy Spirit will guide us in all truth. If Christ told the truth about the Holy Spirit and Paul told the truth about homosexuality (see Leviticus 18:22 - it is an abomination) then anyone who practices homosexuality is in direct conflict with God and cannot gain entrance into the Kingdom. Enemies of God have a special place reserved for them elsewhere.
However, should a man or a woman have homosexual desires and over come those desires because they want to please God;, God has a special place in heaven prepared for them. See Isaiah 56: 4 & 5. Christ discusses this in Matthew 19:12. Those that have Homosexual desires can choose to become eunuchs in order to please God. Or they can become rebellious enemies of God. The mention in Isaiah of the special place and a name above the name of sons and daughters denotes the difficulty confronting these people. Thus it would behoove us to encourage these people to draw close to God and rely on His strength through Jesus Christ, rather than try to make excuses for their rebellious behavior.
J.A. Stroup
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Roy L. Patterson
Agree 100%
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Rev. John D. Partin
J.A. Stroup, none of these Bible verses that you have quoted above were direct quotations from God, but were written by men who were speaking for God and so our accepting them as the actual words of God Himself would make us the most gullible and unrealistic people on Earth and in desperate need of being sold a bridge or some "prime Florida real estate" (swamp land!)!! Anyone can say "this is from God", but where is your proof? The Bible writers just put their views into "God's mouth" to "sanctify" and "justify" them and impose them on other people much easier. If you can't prove that those Bible verses against homosexuality didn't get there from men putting their words into "God's mouth", you also can't prove that homosexuality is actually a sin or any violation of God's law. So, gay people don't need to repent of something that isn't a sin and can go on celebrating their gayness in the church and everywhere else!! Amen and Hallelujah!!
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Brother Leon
I was raised Mennonite, and all of this LBGT mess is just that. My Lord and savior is not happy about any of this, and everyone I know feels the same way. Male/ Female !! That's it. I pray to God to please get this world back on track, before it's too late.
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Rev paul
I agree leon
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Roy L. Patterson
Agree with Brother Leon
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RONALD E LONG
God is love right? Then if a man or a women love each other who are we to judge? I leave the judging to god
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Brandy Huie
1 Peter 4:8 , I Corinthians 7-9
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rhetapheta
My great grandfather was a Methodist circuit rider. Although I'm not Methodist, I used to attend church services when I was young. The whole gay thing doesn't bother me one way or another. I do have a problem with the UMC accepting and condoning abortions.
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Minister Danna Pittman
To all who are victorious, who obey Me to the very end, To them I will give authority over all the nations. They will rule the nations with an iron rod and smash them like clay pots. They will have the same authority I received from my Father, and I will also give them the Morning Star! “Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what He is saying to the churches. Revelation 2:26-29 NLT http://bible.com/116/rev.2.26-29.NLT
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Ellen M. Santistevan
In my work, i occasionally channel for people. Once I had the experience of Jesus coming through for a client, who strongly professed her faith, but she was unable to receive the message that Jesus had for her because it was so different than her personal belief system. And believe me, the messages he had were numerous and super beautiful.
Everyone that I know who has channeled Jesus has remarked that (1) he is quite chatty and (2) the "truth" is so simple, so profound, and so beautiful ...-
Ellen M. Santistevan
I forgot to mention that the Truth is that each of us, when we return to Spirit, is 100% accepted, 100% loved, and gets 100% non-judgement. We are all here on this planet for a reason, and the reason is to gain experiences that enrich us. Even souls who choose to incarnate as murderers or other drastically "bad" people are here to learn about something, as well as to teach other souls lessons they need to learn.
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Lee
Ellen, when I was with Jesus he was not chatty at all. He said nothing, and since he knew everything I wanted to say before I could say it, I was silent also.
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kat2wolf
Anyone should be welcomed into a church, but a church shouldn't be forced to change its belief system. Go to another church...find one that shares your beliefs. Religion is a set of beliefs.
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Rev paul
Agreed kat2wolf
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mebuchanan
I left the UMC several years ago because I could no longer support a church that did not support me. It was a very sorrowful event for me as I had been a faithful member for over 50 years. I could no longer support a church with my prayers, my presence , my gifts & my service when I could not participate in all the sacraments (marriage).
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Rev. JASON Durden
I want to say firstly, that what you do to yourself is ultimately up to you. As a Christian I love you regardless of any mistakes you may make. Secondly, a lot of people try to defend theirselves saying they were born that way, and I have to disagree. You were not born that way, you chose to do what you do because you became twisted by a society that has no moral compass. There are no gay lesbian transgender whatever else babies. The very reason for humans to have sex is reproduction of the species. Nothing more. Because it happens to feel great, that is the excuse we use to pervert it? I don't believe so. Chocolate is delicious, it doesn't mean I should eat only that and in excess also. As a society, we need to come together, and it is a fine line between love and let live, and we have seen it many times said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. IN the meantime, I will continue to love the person, and hate the sin.
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Robyn
Amen
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Rev paul
Well said jason
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Restrepo
Humans are the only species that have sex for pleasure AND reproduction. No other species is like that. If God is so opposed to recreational sex, why did he decide to make it feel good?
Secondly, how can you disagree that people were born that way? Have you ever asked them? Or walked a mile in their shoes? I don't think so. "Judge not lest ye be judged" is what I always say.
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hsw
At what point in your development did you decide to be heterosexual?
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Andrew
I am a heterosexual, married, non-religious believer in Jesus/God. So, I don't have a "dog in this fight" about the Methodist Church and homosexuals other than I think it is a shame and it reflects poorly on our society, and your religion, that you cannot accept homosexuals.
That said, the "they choose to be gay" argument is the dumbest argument I have heard regarding homosexuality. So, that would mean that you choose to be heterosexual, and could go have sex with a man right now if you so chose? Well, if that's true, that means you have sexual urges towards men. Which means you are either gay or bi, and repressing your sexual urges.
Therefore, it's genetics, and you were born that way... because the rest of us actual heterosexuals have no urges to have sex with other men. Do you understand this now? Sorry to out you, friend, but you must be confused. Maybe you just misunderstand the instinctive nature of sexuality so much, that you just accepted the "they choose to be gay" trope because it satisfies your need to hate/feel superior toward others. Whether you are gay or not, though, I accept you for who you are.
Peace. Andrew-
Lee
Andrew, I wish that I had said that! Congrats for clearing it up.
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Shilo
In my mind there the conflict is about Love. Love is patient, love is kind, it doesn't seek out its own way, it isn't proud, it's not easily angered, etc. When you filter this conflict through the eyes of the Love of God, I consider somethings like, those that are gay, new the policies of their memberships before they joined. Why are they now trying to force others to change, only God, through they Holy Spirit can change us.
Let those that want to to be Methodist, start a church of their own, with similar traditions, and observances, no one is stoping them from doing that.
I'm actually pro-equality, but the kind of equality that demands that for both. People that claim they want equality, actually are just seeking to change (everyone) that is not gay, and that violates their civil rights, and constitutional rights as well, not to mention, God's law of Love. In my understanding, as those that believe in God, we are not supposed to try to force (anyone) to change, that's God's job!
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revbjbecker
There is a very good church they could join, right here: The Universal Life Church. And thank you for your calm words.
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GARY WILSON
Agree with brother John. It it's their organization to operate as they see fit. People should vote with their feet and find acceptance elsewhere.
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Judi
It's not for me to judge the behavior of others' religions. It is my responsibility to live by Jesus' example. I say live and let love.
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John W Snyder
Our Lord God, please forgive us for our sins and missled beliefs. For You have created ous in your own image and separated us into man or woman. Forgive those who take Your Devine creation and change themselves for acceptance in a single full society. For we have all sinned and fallen short of your glory. I ask for forgiveness for us all. Amen.
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Jack Lam
By the good book,.bible.yes it was written by man.but backed by god.yes I said god!a marriage is between man and female.is he wanted man together ,than no creation on women!it is my belief.we should abolish gay rights,
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Lee
Looks like it is five o'clock somewhere.
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john
First off, who are they bothering? No one. They go to church, believe in God, and do not bother anyone, they are just nice people. How many of you making these comments actually have read the book or even go to church. Read Mathew and Mark, let me know what you think about judging someone.
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Robyne Marie-Martinez
My opinion is that we, as Christians, should live in Christ's teachings...that we are to not judge and accept everyone, regardless of social standards. It may be one's opinion to not condone gay sexuality. However, that is what is right for you or for me. Who are we to condemn those who love differently than perhaps you and I do? We should plant the seeds and guide people to Christianity, not drive them away by condemnation. I know there have been programs at various Christian churches that have counseled and attempted to accept one's gay desire, but urge them not to "act" on the behavior. I personally, do accept officiating a gay ceremony. That is their personal relationship between God and them, or perhaps NOT a religious thing for them. I am blessing one person committing themselves to another. I believe that's where it stops, as for my participation in it. The commit to their love for one another. I think anything beyond that is over-thinking it, passing judgment, and taking our "faith" into my own hands. That, I feel, is not what we should be doing, unless asked to. Respectfully, I write this for all reading.
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John Burnley
The Bible is quite clear on this issue, homosexuals were put to death. And no your not born that way, its a mental illness. No amount of arguing is going to change the fact that we are not supposed to condone it.
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Michelle C
It's not a mental illness...its DNA.
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Lee
John, you know not what you speak in this matter.
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Rev paul
No Michelle it's not DNA it's perversion plain and simple
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Randy powell
Rev Paul.Satan is behind homosexuality It goes against gods law. And if we deny God hear.he will deny us up in heaven. But the bible says many are call to the Lord.but God knew Satan would decieved many .so then the words of God say only a few shall enter the kingdom of God for there path they on leads them to the put of hell
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REV. JOnathan Lee Mead
God calls homosexuality an abomination. The Bible clearly states that all homosexuals will have their part in the lake of fire. As a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ I will not compromise my values or beliefs for the gay and lesbians of this world. It is not our job to condem the lost but to teach and reach the lost.
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Denise Swartz
I have absolutely no problem with gays or gay marriage. But, if a church has it in it's doctrine that they do not except gays, it should not be forced upon them. You know the rules of the church. That's how it is. Forcing something on someone does not make them want to be accepting. I do not want someone to feel forced to like me because I am blonde or female. Like me because of me. Or dislike me because of me.
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Angelina
As an educator I have met people from all walks of life and with different families than the "norm". Everyone has the right to be part of a religious community. People are blind if they think that their church has no gay, bi or transgender members. People in the military were as well, and they found out that don't ask, don't tell wasn't working. All people have the same rights. I'm a minister, a teacher and a human being, and I cannot align myself with any religion that does not allow for all people to be members.
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Stella
Here we go again. It is 2016 and people are still arguing about this. Who cares what the Methodists think? They are bigots IMO if they condemn homosexuality. If the Methodist Church had any courage it would not split. It would state gays are welcome to serve and attend and if you don't like it, leave. Go to the Westboro Baptist Church. They are always looking for a few good gay bashers. I am bemused at how the bible is thrown around in this argument. I always think back to that pesky "judge not lest thee be judged." It isn't anyone's right to judge others. That's a difficult bill for all of us but the bottom line is if you believe in a Christian God, then that entity will do the judging, not you. Live and let live. This issue is similar to the abortion issue. If you don't believe in abortion then don't have one. If you don't believe in homosexual sex then don't have it. But don't force your views on others. Once again I look at Americans and see how backward we are compared to the rest of the western world. It is a non-issue for the most part in Western European countries. BTW - since the bible is believed by so many as literal, read your history. Some of the greatest military leaders and political leaders in past centuries we're opening gay - and religious. Homosexual sex was used as birth control in some cultures because creating a "bastard" was the worst offense one could commit. Until marriage to a woman, a man laid with a man. How come history is not as important to Christians as the bible? Never mind.....
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Arthur Reed
we may not like the ways of some people but we still have to love them all for god so loved the world that he gave his son to die for our sins Because if we judge others we will be judged by god the father lets just pray for everyone amen
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Donald Wallace
I get along very well with the different Ministers from A-Z in my county. The accept me as being a gay Minister and some call me to perform weddings or funerals from their church of the LGBT Community and this is due to my opinion is: We have ministers and churches who accept LGBT Community in our County and I feel those who do not is their right under their doctrine. So with this I have been getting along with all here compared to some ULC Ministers I know and I remind them to please don't do what they are doing and accept their believes and they accept us. Sometimes I worry I will loose what connections I do have here cause of some who are trying to tell all the churches they have to accept LGBT. I am gay I am married and I am happy and Blessed in my life and marriage
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Rev. Joshua de Kooker
How much more principles does the church have to give up to stay in business. That is just the point, stop being a business and stick to proclaiming God's word. Being gay is not in line with nature and deffinitly not God's plan for humans but, it seams that people have their minds made up and they will force the church to chainge so as to deveate from the master plan which can only end in destruction and sosiety is not very far from that
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Susan
What church is that?
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Dr. David
If you studied nature you would find that gay activity was very normal for all species. You really need to do some fact checking. I also assume from your comments that you are declaring that you are the definitive interpreter of GOD's will and message. For that affliction I would recommend a good program of meditation and lots of prayers for humility.
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Richard
It is not about "Bathroom Rights" at all and you know it.
Just like it was NEVER ABOUT WATER FOUNTAINS!
Bigotry wrapped in religion is cowardice.
I thought the church was supposed to be inclusive. "Everyone is welcome..."
When did Jesus say "I love you... unless you're LGBT!"
If you think that and are so obsessed with what someone else is doing with their genitals, maybe you don't worship anything but your own ego and sense of superiority.
You're also ignoring Matthew 7 - Judge. That makes you a cowardly hypocrite.
Love is so hard to find. Why does it matter to you how someone else expresses it?
If it is consentual and between responsible adults (18+) it shouldn't matter to ANYONE ELSE!!!
You should be ashamed of yourselves if you think otherwise
That is all I have to say.
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Linda
The Bible has been changed by man, who are we to pass judgement? Let this be left to the judgement of trinity. God our father, Jesus our savior, And the Holy Spirit. We seem to always walk behind our egos with judgement in hand. Maybe we should sit in a house of mirrors. Shameful
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Pearl
I've read a lot of the comments made and to be honest about my feelings, I've come to the conclusion that we only know how to love "conditionally". When we hear someone say "I love all people and they are all created by God, we know they mean only if your like me." We preach God loves us unconditionally...but also that its what we do that God doesn't approve of." I was recently asked the question is it wrong for man to love man and woman to love woman. Before I really thought about it, I said "I don't know....it's my place to love and God's place to judge right or wrong. Would I love a son or daughter that might choose to be gay....I can honestly say YES. If God doesn't ask us to qualify for love, why should we? The Bible does say it is an abomination for man to sleep with man and woman to sleep with woman....but it doesn't mention the word "love" ...what if man loves man and woman loves woman????
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Lee
Pearl, they would have my blessing.
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Susan
I have a friend whose son came out a few years ago. She was totally shocked but was able to say that he was the same person he had been before the announcement and that she still loved him. Peace.
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Nicole Carroll
I really want to know who made all those haters out there God or Jesus or Allah to judge others? All Gods, in any name, loves us all. His love is there for everyone to bask in. Period. Don't turn any God into a deity that excludes anyone, because it's simply not true. God loves ALL!
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Jacob Miller
I'm not really here to argue for the debate of gay rights, I'm just here to point out that the lady in the picture is from the Westboro Baptist Church. Not the United Methodist Church. Her being in the picture shows a bit more urgency of the topic, but she shouldn't have been included. It's giving a false realization that this matter seems to be worse than what it actually is.
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Minister Norman
I usually stand clear of these threads (as they always seem to devolve into petty nastiness, name calling, and worse), but here's a question: The ULC is all about Inclusion, so if you are not, then why not resign your ULC Ordination and seek Ordination from one of these (closed minded and constricted belief based systems), the organizations that so many of you so obviously ascribe to and so forcefully mention.
ULC has but three major tenants: Inclusion; Do that which is right ; and respect others beliefs.. Not a very difficult set of requirement.
Before creating my "WaterPath" ministry; a Christ/Taoist based system (following only the words of Jesus and the Tao de Ching), I intensely studied the Bible cover to cover, attended (too many) seminars and lectures (and many diverse church services), and compared translations/transliterations and delved deeply into Biblical History.
My Personal conclusion is that the old testament is man-made Jewish Law (at a time of great upheavel, turmoil, persecution, and also ignorance: U you are a "Literalist" (in which case discussion closed, as I'd have an easier time arguing with just about any other biggot or racist), but if you truly believe in an anthropomorphic"god", and that any GOD would command "Thou shalt not kill" and then in "his" next breath tell Moses (and I'm paraphrasing here, but stating fact), Slay all of them (men, women, and children), but keep the girls and women (those who have not known a man), for yourselves as concubine, and give the first/best 10% (this is where tything comes from), give that to the Priests (not the poor--Jesus commanded that); then divide the remaining spoils among yourselves. REALLY? You should be studying the history of what you proclaim; not bashing others with it. LOVE (thy neighbor as thyself) is the greatest commandment. Find a space for that one, and the rest will resolve of its own. I wish you all Love, Light, and Freedom.
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Susan
Thank you for reminding everyone here that the ULC is NOT a Christian church. Some folks seem to forget that.
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Steve E Monnett
There Are Lots Of Gays We Should Accept Them Most Of Them Are Good People
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Gerald (Jerry) Gay
We are all individual thoughts in the consciousness of God. We are all connected and learning while creating life together. *One of our hardest lessons is to not judge others but to simply evaluate. Each of us is creating and essential to forming the totality of learning in all humanity. Accept that each of us is the Christ in our life and learning while becoming the best we can during our days of living on earth. Welcome to Our Second Coming and bringing peace to all the earth by living our own example and encouraging others to do so as well.
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DJ
All people are created by God & if all people would accept each other equally, we could work on making our home planet a paradise. All the negativity drags us down. To set our sights higher & think of greater things, raises the awareness, bringing peace.
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Rev Simon E. Blatta
Religion is arbitrary nonsense. Members can make up whatever rules they want. FSM told me to write this comment. Or maybe it was Sasquatch.
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Rev. William Self
I do not believe everyone ,just read the Bible, Its all there , the comment I leave is anyone who is in a relationship with the same gender be it gay or lesbian should not hold a document saying they can preach for god. they can't set an example for what the holy bible is saying.
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Christopher Holloway
I am a Witch Cleric, my term, I have studied the Christian Bible for years and believe it's a great guide to live by and maybe at one time was godly spoken but I am a Witch by nature and believe that God(ess) loves all. I believe you should be with whomever you want to be with. You should pee where you are comfortable but with that comes pedophiles that may want to sneak a peak at our children or perverts in the school system so there needs to be guidelines and rules with stiff punishments for those aspects. I am very open to urinating around other adults if they be male or female as long as their adults. I am open minded about my sexuality meaning if my wife and I choose to be sexual with another person of either male or female sex then I am fine with it. I respect the form of the human body like back in Genesis before Eve ate of the tree. Is it possible that we respect others beliefs and traditions and feelings? As long as their not committing some crime of course.
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Ed
God loves everyone. why can't the Methodist?
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Gallet Christ Sampu
Brothers and sisters; in this part of views of point , I would like to mention this to all of you . Barely Enough, just Enough, and More Than Enough.
In the Scripture, the Israelites had been in slavery for many years. That was the land of Barely Enough. They were just enduring, surviving, barely making it through. One day God brought them out of slavery and took them into the desert. That was the land of just Enough. Their need were supplied, but nothing extra.
Don't be like acting hypocrite people. Before judging someone or clean someone else dirty thing, let get first our own clean and we will face the truth guidance going with light shining. Brothers and sisters just it is important for you to enjoy your life '' just drink , eat, and share your great ideas. and let it go. By doing this so , we will escape to be judging. (Hidden or not hidden, every things will be put to the shame. '' So govern your own conduct.
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Rev. Brien
Ahhh yes, once again I stumble into true humanity. I personally believe that people just love to fight. That is evident by the mountains that are created out of mole hills. I will once again try to bring a little clarity to the fog bank that BOTH sides of this issue, (issue? I do not even know if this qualifies), this will be hard for both sides to understand because it involves putting away your hatred for one another and simply living the life that was given to you. Now, let's get the word "rights" taken care of first. You have the right to live. That is it. That is all that was promised. Anything else after that is what you make of it. You DO NOT have the right to tell someone else how to live, nor what to believe in. Now stop and absorb that, BOTH sides. Please, yell all you want. I do not care what your opinions are because they do not propose solutions, only bigotry. I do not care if you are gay, straight, single, married, (gay or straight), white, black, purple, ok you get the idea. Organized religion, all of it, any sect, is a set of guidelines that like minded people follow. They believe in that, and no one has the right to force them to believe any other way. Example: People worship Satan and the evils it represents. Now that is my belief, Satan is evil. I will not have that in my house, nor will I in any way accept it in my life. I simply stay away from it. Why would a gay life style, based on freedom and love, wish to involve itself with a rigid organized religion? Why not simply create a better one? Just as the straight community has no right to tell you how to live, just as I have no right to tell Satan worshiper how or what to believe, you have no right to demand that an organized religion accept something that goes against a core of its' belief. Straight people also have no right to interfere with your life choices, or your pursuit of happiness simply because they tout some religious belief. Gay community, stop trying to pick a fight and create your own religious experience. Why deal with the obvious limited view of the established organized religion? Straight community: Offering services, housing , ect. to a gay person does NOT invalidate your religion. God does not give a damn about money. God wants to see peace and compassion. The rules you speak of so much were created by...wait for it...MAN. God simply wanted us to love and CARE for one another. Please, do not dare to attempt to quote what you call "scripture" to me. None of it was written by God. Now if you can produce a document in Gods' own hand writing...no? Like I said, God wants peace and compassion, oh, and a little show of intelligence once in awhile would be okay too. I end this as I end most all things that I write.......GROW UP!
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hsw
Just a couple of points - no one is trying to "force" the Methodists to do anything - this is coming from their own governing body.
Second, why do you assume that this is not the church of those gay folks who want to join? We are talking about individuals here, with the same diverse backgrounds as the rest of us, and some grew up in this church and would want to continue with it. There are divorced people, adulterers, and many other species of "sinners" who are attending church every Sunday in their chosen community, as they always have - why is this different?
Last, but certainly not least, separate but equal has been rightly deemed a form of discrimination. To suggest that a reasonable solution would be for the "gay community" (as if they are a homogenous population) to "create their own religious experience" is as wrong as separate water fountains and separate schools.
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Rev. Brien
Wow, and you are part of the continuing confusion. Let me answer your points, against my better judgement: ..."Second, why do you assume that this is not the church of those gay folks who want to join?"..... Again, I ask, why do you or anyone wish to join any organization that has obvious strict rules against the way you enjoy your life? If you are confident and living well, why create the battle in your life? What do you need it for? Why must you force some to accept things into their personal lives that they do not wish to accept? Why is it so important that you have the judgement of others that may be so limited in vision? Move on already.
......"Last, but certainly not least, separate but equal has been rightly deemed a form of discrimination."............. Mountain out of a mole hill. What discrimination do you speak of? Last I looked, at least in the USA, laws have been written, or amended to be more inclusive of all people....and there is still more hitting the books. Look, I do not have to believe any other way in my heart or in my home than I do now. I also cannot force someone to believe or behave as I do. I make my OWN life. I do not ask others to accept it, why should I? It is MY life and no one else. All of the things that are needed for living are protected by law from being used to discriminate. Everything that can be considered "public" need, It is not me that discriminates, I dislike both sides of this argument equally. To force a private person, or in this case a private organization to believe a certain way ranks right up there with another word...Nazi.
Get over your self importance. No one group is any more important, or have any greater right to life than any other. You are just looking to argue. This argument is pointless.
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hsw
GIven that you clearly lack reading comprehension skills, I'm going to agree that the argument is pointless. Have a good, if limited, life.
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Rev. Brien
I read every word you wrote....and understood all of it. You did not understand the scope of what you said. "Some had grown up with the church....", and had to live a lie. Tell me, while they were growing up with the church, did any of them tell the clergy they were gay? How about the congregation? Were they able to be openly gay, or did they have to live a lie just to "fit in"? You see, I do understand, many deeper underlying meanings than you are willing to admit here today. This is not an argument but a plea, a plea to people to create their own path, one that will allow them to fully live the life they have. Do you comprehend that?
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hsw
One more time because you're clearly still not getting it...I'm done here. You think you know but you don't. You can keep spewing if you choose but I'm not wasting any more energy on what you yourself called a pointless argument.
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Rev. Brien
"One more time because you’re clearly still not getting it…I’m done here. You think you know but you don’t. You can keep spewing if you choose but I’m not wasting any more energy on what you yourself called a pointless argument."
You are correct. It is pointless. You chose to see what you wish. Peace.
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Susan
Well said.
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ardogarvin58
that goes with out saying .I am a man of GOD and for GOD I do live, an I have died in sin an because my brother Christ ,I will again live in the father son an the spirit. I was ashamed when you my breather witch gave me the paper that man wont to sit in his church but you see you are like the Christin who crucified Chris sin did not condemn him the church did but yet he still laid down his life for us anyhow giving us full run of heaven and the promise of life .now getting back to this gay spirit of coerce let them in the church the sick lame poor in spirit an the process is to go to the sanctuary to be pray for and to cast out demon but they are not to hold a office if I was against all that you believe could I come live with you and trust your c ..hildren in my care you know this , why must I tell you what you all ready know amen
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Susan
Sorry, Brother! You are in the wrong place. This is NOT a Christian Church.
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Ruth
I resigned from the Methodist Church because of this issue. I did not--and still do not--agree with them.
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Randy White
As I read all of these comments concerning gays, lesbians, etc., I see many opinions that support these people and many opinions that declare that these lifestyles are sinful. If you are in favor of the church accepting these lifestyles, ask what the Holy Bible says about it? Your opinion or my opinion really does not matter! What does the Word of God say? It clearly proclaims in the 1st chapter of Romans and the 6th chapter of 1st Corinthians that God is not pleased with these people and that they will not enter the Kingdom of God if they remained fixed to these ungodly ways of life. They must repent and follow Jesus Christ, not self! We need to stop telling people what they should or should not do, unless we are showing them what God's Word says about the subject. Ask yourself the question of why Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed? Don't give your opinion, but search the scriptures and find the facts! Some say that we are all the children of God. We are only truly His children if we love Him and keep His commandments. Read Matthew 7:21 listen carefully to what it tells us all! He loves us, but in order for us to live with Him in Heaven, we must conform to His way, not Him to our way!
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hsw
Hi Randy, are you new here? Just asking because you're about nine months late to this thread, and you're preaching Christian scripture to people who are mostly here because it's a safe space for all faiths or none. Our opinions do matter very much here, and your scripture is just more opinions of men who believed the world was flat.
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Rev. John D. Partin
Randy White, the 1st chapter of Romans and the 6th chapter of 1st Corinthians aren't the words of God, but only the words of men which were put into God's mouth, in order to "sanctify" and "justify" their views and impose them upon other people much easier. God isn't a homophobe or other kind of bigot and so any obvious bigotry in the Bible didn't come from God, but from human beings. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for their sins of inhospitality and rape, not for homosexuality. Why would God have waited for the arrival of Lot's guests to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah if homosexuality was so objectionable to Him, when it had been going on there all along? Love and acceptance are from God, not bigotry and condemnation. So, gay men, lesbians, bisexual people, transgenders, and transvestites are accepted and loved equally by God along with straight people and if there is a Heaven, it won't be a straight people's only club!!
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REV. JOnathan Lee Mead
Sin is sin. Homosexuals will have no place in Gods kingdom.
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Rev. John D. Partin
Jonathan Lee Mead, you aren't and won't be the gate keeper in Heaven to say who gets in and who doesn't get in. Neither are some verses in the Bible, which were written by men who were as bigoted as you and other homophobes today still are, the deciders of who will or won't get into Heaven! Ancient bigots weren't any smarter or closer to God than bigots today are.
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REV. JOnathan Lee Mead
For one my tile is Reverend sir. Just because you dont believe the Bible doesn't mean anything except that you are uneducated in Gods Holy Word. ,, Yes its true that God loves everyone and wants everyone to come to repentance through Jesus Christ His only Begotten Son. Please try to understand that as a minister of the Gospel of Jesus Christ I have to give an account for everything that I preach ans teach about Gods Holy Scriptures. THEREFORE IT IS GODS.HOLY WORD THAT CONDEMNS NOT MINE. IN the book of Genesis we see that god ordained Marriage between a man and a woman. The Bible tells us that homosexuals will IN No way inherit the Kingdom of God. On the White Great Throne Judgement you will here these final.words for the Lord.God, "Depart from me you workers of iniquity for I (God) never knew you. REPENT FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD.IS AT HAND. God will bring these texts to your remembrance. Praying for you and others to come to rhe knowledge of Gods mercy and grace.
Rev. Jonathan Lee Mead
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hsw
Neither will you. But it’s ok because it’s a fiction created to keep you compliant in this life. It’s obviously working quite well.
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REV. JOnathan Lee Mead
Jesus said "unless a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." He also said, "I am the way the truth and the life, no ONE comes to the Father except through me. Also, "there is no other name given whereby men should be saved except the name Jesus Christ. I know I am saved, sanctified and filled with the power of the Holy Spirit. I am not condemning anyone. GODS HOLY SCRIPTURES ARE FINAL ON THIS ISSUE.
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hsw
Again, it’s working quite well. Enjoy your captivity.
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hsw
It gets tiresome when bible thumpers try to dominate the conversation on a site that’s not christian.
But it mimics how they behave out in the world, and reminds me why people are leaving the church in droves.
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REV. JOnathan Lee Mead
People are leaving the church due to Satan misleading them to here a feel good gospel. Yes it is true, and the bible is clear that God loves everyone and he wants all to come to repentance. As a minister of the GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST I HAVE TO GIVE AN ACCOUNT FOR WHAT I SAY AND teach From Gods Holy Scriptures. I answer to no man. Only God can judge me. I know What Gods word states on this issue. It is clear from the beginning in Genesis that marriage is between a man and a woman. Whether or not you believe this is irrelevant, It is Gods word that condemns homosexuality not mine. The bible cleary states that Homosexuals will in no part Inherit the Kingdom of God. On that last day of the great judgement you will here, "Depart from me you workers of iniquity for I (God) never knew you."
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hsw
Whether or not you believe what was written by uneducated men who believed the earth was flat is also irrelevant, but if that’s your drug of choice, have at it. Just keep it in your personal space.
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God makes us all--gay, straight, bisexual, transsexual, and loves us all. I hope the Methodists can accept this.
They accept every one. That doesn't mean the have to allow them to be pastors.
Why not? Jesus was gay.
That is a unfounded comment know one knows the sexuality of Jesus and you have no proof. You shouldn't talk out of your ass but you do have the right to do so, but just like you have the right to sau what you want these people have the right to refuse service or ne open to it. It should be up to the discretion of the church individually.
Excuse me Jesus is God he has no sexual preference because God does not have a wife or anything he is God from the beginning to eternity stop trying to push you gay agenda by blaspheming the lord our God you hethen from the bowels of hell
Our local Methodist Church has a sign out front that says "Open Hearts, Open Minds, Open Arms". Isn't that rather hypocritical of them. I thought there were rules/laws against false advertisments!
Jim Novak. If Jesus is God, who was he talking to when he prayed . . . . Himself?
Jim Novak....you are as demented as the other like-minded bible-thumpers who echo your same comments. You and your ilk have dominated this country, to its detriment, for over 200 years. Thank God your tyranny is coming to an end.and ALL people can be accepted for who they are.
Kris is right no proof Jesus ever was gay
Where is the proof that Jesus was NOT gay?
That's the way all prayer works, Warren. You're only talking to yourself. Just a head's up for some…. it's better to use your inside voice when you're in public.
You are so wrong in that comment
THIS IS A VERY VERY NASTY OPINION ABOUT OUR SAVIOUR THESE TYPE OF BASELESS THINGS MUST BE AVOIDED .BY GIVING THIS COMMENT ARE THEY NOT TRYING TO CHALLENGE THE HOLINESS OF OUR LORD .?
Jesus does love everyone, I agree but to blasphem; calling him GAY!? I'm sure our maker's heart breaks everytime someone like you speaks in this way. I will be praying for mercy on your soul.
Under what definition of the word would this be blasphemy?
if you read the bible then you know the laws of God take it from there.
I am truly curious - this isn't a christian church - why are you here?
This church does not follow any scriptural tradition.
was you their .bet not .your probably gay.
Bet not - and I can spell. What exactly is your point?
Jesus was not gay. He was with-out sin. Jesus was a human being. Jesus is the Son of God.
Amen jerry
Not a valid argument since being born gay isn't a “sin.”
Unless you believe your god makes mistakes.
Why? Are you afraid of them?
scripture states clearly man lying with man and women lying with woman is an abomination to God.what is unclear ? Nothing it doesn't say sin or anything else and science has proved there is no gay gene in anyone. so explain that
Leviticus condemns many other things. Maybe you should read it and find out how far out of line we are with God's commands. For example, in Lev 11, just check out the list of animals God said we should not eat.
That same book of the Bible says that you shouldn't eat pork or, shell fish. Do you eat pork chops, ham, and, shrimp? If you do then you are going against those laws of Moses as well.
Which one of the "prophets" channeled that message from God, frank? Was it in the form of a vision or a dream? What would you do if you thought God sent you a personal message and it involved doing some killing like Moses or Jim Jones?
All this and no one has said if they even let gays in the church and they prove worthy then why not become a minister.
Can a person who is gay not be spiritual and carry a powerful message? The God of my understand can use the least of us for great and miraculous events.
I think not Kelly
Praise God .rev Paul.they need to read the story of sodem and gamore.God wipe out all homosexuality then.and he gonna do it again alot of gods people don't open the bible.and have no understanding of what abomination. Hello gays.y'all right now are abomination.turn bend a knee and ask and it shall be giving power for y'all to ask God to change y'all agenda.cause I'm he re just to say this gods words want come back void.and I have a friend he works at Wal-Mart he a pharmacist.and smart. But I tell him to turn from the homosexuality and for him to ask God to forgive him and help him not to be gay
Pastor Powell God can use even a whale are a donkey.but for as homosexuality he can use th of they repent ask the father to forgive them a heal what Satan put on them.then and only then can God let them.cause they were gay but they can tell how God change them.done deal
After seeing how you write, I cannot imagine how you read and comprehend anything.
You certainly don’t understand the parables you attempt to use.
And the book you rely upon was written by men who believed the earth was flat and that the sun revolved around the earth.
Unless you have given up all the things that are prohibited in Leviticus, please stop cherry picking to support your prejudice.
Why can't a gay person become a pastor? They are human just like the rest of us? They didn't choose to become gay, they are born that way, accept it. It's not very "Christian" to accept some, but not all. God made them all, then accept them all.
God made male and female.
And your point is...
And GOD created everything else as well, not only male and female.
They can ANDY. There are a number of Christian denominations that follow the teaching of Jesus and have shed homophobic bigotry
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordination_of_LGBT_Christian_clergy
The word of God say thats an Abomination for a man to lay with a man or a woman to be with a woman and that's the word of the Lord we can love them but no way they can be pastors
The reason gays should not become ministers is they are living a life that is contrary to God God says in the Bible that homosexual relations is an abomination to him
It also says that women wearing trousers is also an abomination. You can mould what you read in the bible to say anything. The Bible is a book written by a man. Whose to say his personal hatred towards others didn't get in there too. Love and acceptance is what Is spread not hatred towards anyone.
Agree 100%
You ain't gonna suck youre way into to heaven.but into hell
"Pastor" Paul, women also suck on men's penises during oral sex with men and men suck on women's nipples during sex. So, will they also be sucking their way into Hell or is it only gay men who suck their way into Hell, though their fellatio is as natural for them as fellatio and oral sex are for women and men? That has nothing to do with anyone's not getting into Heaven or going to Hell!
I would have no problem with a gay paster,as long as he is not out(what people do behind close doors is there business)but if he was open,and wouldn't accept what he is doing is a sin,then i couldn't follow that.
Correction: I meant to address him as "Pastor" Powell. Everything else in my post still goes!
Rj, so if the pastor (paster is somebody who pastes up notices on walls or billboards, I suppose) just lied about himself and kept his sexual orientation a secret and committed the sin of telling lies, you wouldn't have any problem with his being gay? Why is honesty about being gay a worse sin, according to you, than telling lies about it? Gayness is only a "sin" according to homophobes, but lying and dishonesty are sins to nearly everyone and so are far worse sins and are called abominations in the Bible, too.
So as long as people don’t be who they are, you’re fine with it.
How Christian of you.
That’s sarcasm btw.
What was it Jesus said when his disciples saw a magician performing miracles in Jesus's name? What did Jesus tell his disciples that day?
Amen bro.but if the church takes the gays in and they want to turn from there sins.God could use a converted homosexual in the pool put in the streets or any where But they have to repent and turn away .that's the only way
Randy Powell, gay people don't need to turn away from homosexuality, since it is only called a "sin" by bigots today against this natural sexuality and by Bible writers who put their words into God's mouth in order to "sanctify" and "justify" their views and impose them on other people easier. God loves and accepts gay people just as much as straight people, as they are!
We all sin and come short of God's Glory. His Will and sin's definitions don't change to conform to this world.
we don't get to choose our sexuality.. WE are born with it. it is not a choice. I was brought up to love my neighbor as myself. Who am I to judge another.
The Methodist Church is going against the teaching of the Bible!!!!!!! who gave them the power to judge????? Do not judge lest you be judged.
Presbyterian Church USA has been going through a similar split for the past few years and locally in my small community it became a very divisive issue. In the end, those who stood with PC-USA and its acceptance of more inclusive policies were forced out of their worship place by those who were still anti-gay. In the end, everyone lost but it was an important issue and process to go through and PCUSA will survive the exodus of anti gay members as it becomes a more loving community. The Episcopal Church has accepted gay clergy for years and my personal experience with their members is that they are a loving, faithful community, devoted to the teachings of Christ, and to ministering to all of God's children.
Well then tell me why the group Eco have formed from a split from the Presbyterian church USA if gay pastors are so popular in that church you mention the episcopalian I have a friend who is a episcopalin priest his parish is under a bishop who is conservative in South Carolina then the Newark dioceses and other parishes around the country in the episcopalin church are under conservative. Bishops and not under their regular dioceses. Bishops Because they are too liberal and gay leaning what about the 10-15 new Anglican denimonations stared in the last 20 years or so because first the episcopalin church ordaination of women to the priesthood then women bishops and now gay ordaination the episcopalin church in the USA has lost almost half its people over the ordaination of gay priests and bishops and allowing openly gays to be members of their church
Ummm...what? I'm sure there's a question in there somewhere but I'll be damned if I can find it.
I am Episcopalian and this statement isn't true. Stop spreading false information.
How can you teach biblical principle's when you are in violation of them? The Bible clearly states, it is an abomination in the eyes of God for a man to lay with a man and a women to dress as a man. It doesn't say that we should hate them. I interpret it to mean that the behavior is not to be accepted as right. Jesus also said if a man does not correct his evil ways to shake the sand off your sandals. I interpret it to mean that you don't accept the behavior.
Robyn: How thoughtful. Since you are such an expert, why don't you deal with all those other biblical issues. Serial marriages comes to mind. Adultery was such a big issue "in those days." I have not heard of any stonings lately--at least not in the USofA.
I have done a LOT of research on this line of scripture and everything I have been able to find from Greek, Latin, and even Aramaic translations is that an abomination is not a sin but something that is not considered customary with society
Were you smoking something that helped you come to this conclusion the bible says that having more then one wife is abomination I guess we should all go out and get more then one wife then the shortage of man and females would be solved
Jim Novak again, ranting and cherry-picking the bible to find passages that fit his bigotry while ignoring those that preach love and acceptance. What a sad little man.
Jim, you didn't respond to Brother John's request. Why is that? It is just a few questions and it would give all of us a clue to this vast knowledge you have about GOD's will.
I do not know your reference, but Jesus would never say that a woman should not dress as a man. Jesus is the truth and that is not a true statement.
Actually the book of duetaromney in the Bible talks about this
Go pastor becareful brother
Thanks Paul.
Amen. Dont know what Bible these people are reading from but it clearly states that its not to be done or condoned.
Agreed John
Robyn, do you wear pant suits, shorts or, jeans? If so, you are dressing as a man, even if they are designed for women. Do you eat shell fish, you know, shrimp, crab, lobster, clams or maybe pork. If you do any of these things you are breaking the laws in Leviticus. Does your husband touch you or, kiss you when your on your monthly? If so, he too is breaking the laws in Leviticus. If your children touch you during that time they are breaking the laws of Moses as well so, are any of your friends, church members, pastor.
The pant suits, shorts and jeans are designed and marketed for women. In the time of Jesus, men wore long robes and gowns too. It's not strictly "If you wear a dress it's a girl and all pants are for boys" issue. There is intent and whats in your heart. Further more, whether 1, 2 or 50 laws are broken daily doesn't mean 1 more is okay. You should try every day to do your best not too break any of them. With your logic, everyone should kill too! Why not? I had bacon this morning - seems totally legit to me. smh.
The Bible was written by men who knew no better and were just trying to control the masses. God exists in people's minds...nowhere else.
The Bible was written by men who were Fathers, husbands, brothers, uncles, and sons of women. Mothers who believed in the reality of a Supreme Being outside of themselves. Mothers who witnessed sodomy and the degradation of their child manhood. Mothers who cried out to God in pain and prayed intensely for Devine intervention.
Come on, Robyn, Jim and others. Lifting any of the 600+ of "God's laws and commandment" and to justify your homophobia and ignoring many others is beyond hypocritical. Do you need to be reminded about the condoning of slavery, stoning people (including disobedient children) to death, misogyny and more?
You're probably yapping about the wrong 10 commandments by not reading your bible carefully. The real ones (written on stone tablets) are in Exodus 34 as verified in verse 28. Can you honestly say you've never cooked a young goat in it's mother's milk or offered your blood sacrifice with something containing yeast? I thought not.
Thanks Robyn your quite right
First, those who are ordained here are of many faiths, as well as atheists, so I'm not sure who you're addressing about teaching biblical principles.
That reference in the bible in each case was to the disciples in reference to their teachings, and was an instruction that if people would not accept their teaching, that they should move on, as they'd done all they could do.
I always find it sad when I have more knowledge of the interpretation of actual biblical scholars than those who profess the faith that is based in the book. Guess 45 years of bible study stuck with me better than I thought.
This is the crux of the problem. This is not a Christian organization so spouting the Bible at us is of no use whatsoever. Well said.
Amen bro they all gonna bust he'll wide open if they don't turn from there wicked ways.you can't give God a blow job and you ain't gonna suck you're way to heaven.you gonna be giving blow jobs in hell
And yet, Pastor Powell, no one here seems obsessed with blow jobs except you. Why do you think that is?
"Pastor" Powell, Jesus plainly told us that even the wind blows where it will and you hear the sound of it, but don't know where it came from or where it is going. So, even God doesn't have all of this trouble about blowing that you seem to have about it! As for people's not sucking their way into Heaven, tell that more to all of the suckups, ass kissers, and brown nosers among "Christians" who are always trying to do exactly that than to gay people! If blowjobs would really keep people out of Heaven and send them to Hell, it isn't only gay people who have to worry!! Fellatio is perfectly natural, normal, and healthy sex for gay men and women to give men, just as cunnilingus is for men to give women.
"Pastor" Powell, blowjobs can't possibly be sending anyone to Hell, since they are just a normal, natural, and healthy expression of love from one person to another, gay or straight, and more than just gay people would be "sucking their ways into Hell" if blowjobs would send them there! God wouldn't condemn anyone for an expression of love, even if there were a Hell, which there isn't! Both fellatio and cunnilingus are perfectly normal and moral practices.
Why the defiant ignorance? Against my omniscient exhaustive correct scripture translations of all passages in the Old Testament & the New Testament that PROVE gay love relationships were the NORML among the early & latter lineage of Nasara Jews, which is the heritage of Jesus Al Imran, the bloody sacrificed Lamb by the ruling Allahi-Elohim 'Synagogue of Satan.' Saint Paulus clearly states that Jesus, as The Liberal-Liberator {Kharisa}, was another gay "enosh;" which is the Hebrue word for the Greek word "doule" that means the gay lover wife of another gay man, or Abbir. The Arabic word for "doule" & "enosh" {Another} is "Khoule." Very similar. Saint Paul states that Jesus, as The Liberal = Christ, was totally justified in The Spirit of the Lord...for..."Yesh; now the Lord is That Spirit; where Spirit Lord is {yesh} is there Liberty." And the United Methodists want to deny all this that I have so expertly & excellently exposed with my exhaustive translative/interps from the Original Hebrue & Greek. What is there major problem? They cannot HEAR THE VOICE OF MANY WATERS? OUR HARIL DIANA DONNA DOU'GLAS? like every Truthful person full of the One Spirit of the One Lord? My documents have been out for several years now! Why else did Jay Leno say: "DIana Donna DouGlas is OUR best bible translator?" And why did Cyndi Lauper say, on "Celebrity Apprentice:" "We are all saved by Diana Donna DouGlas' scripture translations?" Because they LIsten to My One Spirit of the One Lord....Shalom Sala'am Saad.
Hi Douglas!! since we live in the same area, why don't we get together and you can show me in scripture (the 66 books of the Bible) where it says that Jesus was gay, or where the Bible condones homosexuality. Matter of fact, the Bible condemns homosexuality in Romans chapter 1 and other places. If the Methodists say they want to study this gay thing, I suggest they use the Bible as their only source to get God's view. After all, it is his will and his views that they are supposed to be espousing.
You got that right kevin
Man and man is a abomination to God and if t h e y don't stop they gonna bust he'll eide
You got that right randy
God didn't make people gay Satan got into their lives and deceive them.th e t b r tyre ask God to forgive them for bring gay and turn for their homosexual ways
Lets leave the decsions that God created to His Own understandings. It is our obligation to love our neighbors. Who are we to criticize Our God's creations.
I agree it is for God to decide. If we all believe that God made us all Then should we not be asking him why he made people gay?
I believe that we "normal" people are making such a mess of the world in which we all live in then having folks who love each other no matter what society throws at them should be left in peace and the rest of us should sorting out the mess we have made to the world and we then and only then will we know the true meaning of God's plan for us all.
I hope you re read the Bible because you are wrong. It's not my place to pass judgement but, as a christen, I must draw a line somewhere to protect my own. God made us in his own image and that image was not gay, bisexuals or transgender. HE separated gender from the start and should man or woman change that is a slap in the face to our creator. Each of us have to answer for what we say or do. I choose to keep that element out of my life ti decrease the infection of blastpbany away. Shaking the sand from my shoes.......
Sir you are using that verse out of context judge not least yea be judged we are not judging we are repeating and acknowledging what the bible already teaches the bible is the inerrant word of God without error those who think the bible is not to be taken literal or are just a bunch of nice stories with a good moral lesson are the ones who. Need to study what the word of God is all about and what it says and mean when God says thus saith the lord our God or thou shall not when you and other liberals learn the truth come and then talk to me about the bible
Last time I checked, He said "love one another". How about, "Let ye who art without sin cast the first stone"? You hatred of so-called 'liberals' betrays both admonitions. For shame.
Bad news, Jim. The Bible isn't the "inerrant word of God". Around 40 different men supposedly wrote the Bible (not God) which is riddled with errors and contradictions and has been edited, revised and changed multiple times over the centuries. Let me test your biblical knowledge so we all know whether to believe you or not.
Were Moses and the Prophets Christians or Jews?
Were the OT laws and commandments for Jews, Christians or both?
The Gospels, which tell of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus are the foundation of Christianity and are inerrant and without contradiction or errors... True or False?
Are there existing original manuscripts of the Gospels or are all of them copies (of copies, of copies)
Were the Gospels writers actually Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? Were they eyewitnesses to the life of Jesus?
Let's use just two examples to verify. Compare the following from each of the four Gospels.
What were the last words of Jesus before he died?
What interaction did he have with the men on either side of him?
What happened at the tomb? Who was there? What was said and done?
Get back to us on this Jim (and any others claiming the Bible is inerrant and without contradiction)
And then there's the problem not only of which author to choose, but which translation. Then there's the nearly insurmountable issue of no literal translation from the original texts that would be "homosexual." I could go on, but in responding to Brother John on this I believe I'm preaching to the choir.
What proof do you have that the image of God was not gay, bisexual, or transgender? The Bible? It was written thousands of years after Christ by men who were interested in getting people to believe and follow them. It has been translated so many times that who knows what it said in the original?
Be a true Christian and follow Christ, who taught to love all.
Just curious how many "thousands" after Christ that was?
When God put Adam and Eve together that was the first marriage he did not put Adam and Steve together so this confirms homosexuals
Rev Paul I'm troubled by your use of the word "marriage." If Adam and Eve were the original humans, who married them, and by what authority or tradition? I'll leave the facts of who their children married (each other) for some other thread, some other time.
There is that creepy incestuous mystery isn't there?
When God brought Adam and Eve together he performed the first marrage
GOD does not care what your sexuality is or is not. If you believe in reincarnation, as I do, we have all been both male or female many times. Transitioning between the sexes can take more than one lifetime. We should all just relax and enjoy the trip and stop condemning people. It is going to happen anyway. You cannot stop it and it makes no difference if you believe it or not, or fight it with all your being. You will transition and you will become that which you condemn and hate.
Great points!
True, we all human, we all are different in many ways and the same in many ways
The Methodist have to stand with church policy
The whole point is that they were trying to decide whether or not to change it.
This is all based on the flawed notion that humans "must" act on all sexual impulses whether or not society,the church,or the government deems them proper or not. The question we should really be asking is if Jesus taught us to "act" on "all" of our desires,sexual or otherwise,ir if he taught self control in order to help humans understand that we are higher life forms than the animals and prove the Devil a liar
Billy Keys your statement is based on the flawed notion that this is about sex, which is how it's nearly always framed by those with religious issues. It's a much bigger and more important issue of whether those who love someone of the same gender are to be discriminated against, or allowed to live in peace, with the same rights others enjoy - whether they can live, work, even worship as others do.
Those who object would do so even if celibacy were guaranteed, because living, loving, and making a life with someone of the same gender is incomprehensible to them, therefore they view it as wrong.
The bible says plainly we can't change the word of the Lord.and for as gay goes it don't go and it want stand in heaven. God says a man that lays 37th a man is a abomination to the Lord.and if a gay man does and don't ask the father in heaven to forgive him. Then his name will erased from the lambs book of life and I am standing on gods word.gods word say don't be conform to things world but be transform by the renewing of God word.so as a pastor I have a duty to tell everyone God ain't got no gay in him and he ain't gonna have it in heaven.he is going to tell all the hate depart from me for I never new you .so to all of the gay people all over this earth.get on you're knees and ask the Lord to change what the devil had deceive y'all with.and the bible says truth. Shall set you free..I had a stroke5days ago.at 745 last night a Angel of the Lord appear before me and said the harvest is Ripe.and the sickle is being made ready for the day of the Lord is soon at hand.my all who read this be change by gods true word not by mans word and by man law.people wake up really allowing and man with a penis can use a bath room with a woman.that's just Satan try to get more of gods people to spend eternity with Satan and all of his demons .and all the lesbians and gays are gonna burn in the lake of fire.pastor Powell.praise the name of God
Stop quoting the Bible. The ULC is not Christian!
Actually it's Christian, Atheist, Pagan and any other religion that the person whose ordained through believe in. It's interfaith.
Amen pastor powell
"Pastor" Powell, God never said that a man that lays with a man is an abomination to the LORD because that was written by human beings and merely put into God's mouth, as all realistic and reasonable people already know (and you would know and admit if you were one of them!). We are, quite obviously, supposed to change the "word of God" and ignore and reject many parts of it which were just human prejudices and bigotry, as this homophobia clearly is, since none of that is actually from God!! The truth will set you free and this homophobia in the Bible's being from men and not from God is the truth!! If there is a Hell, it will be all of you homophobes and other bigots and SUCKERS!!! and idiots who will be in it, while gay men and lesbians and all open minded and free spirited and loving and accepting people, as Jesus was, will be in Heaven!!
You are wrong sir. The bible is the Word of God speaking through men. It is the inspired, infallible, inerrant word of God. All homosexuals will have their place in the lake of fire. Do you not remember Sodom and Gemorrah. The men of that city were so blatantly open and homosexuals that they wanted to have sex with the angels. Lot offered his daughters, but the men wanted the 2 angels, the angels smote the men with Blindness and Lot and his family left the city. God Almighty himself destroyed that city with all the homosexuals with fire and brimstone. Openly gay homosexuals will die in the eternity of hell fire if they do not repent. The Apostle Paul tells us that all sorcerers, withches, fornicators, murderers, Homosexuals will have no place in the kingdom of heaven. Repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as the only begotten son of God.
Rev. Jonathan Lee Mead Church of God
"Rev." Jonathan Lee Mead, all that you or anyone else has to do to prove that I'm "wrong" about the Bible's just being the words of men, not the word of God, is to show some objective evidence outside of the Bible to prove that. The Bible can't be used to verify itself because that is just circular "reasoning". "The Bible is right because the Bible is right because the Bible is right", etc. ad infinitum is just talking in circles, which nobody who can actually prove their point ever does or needs to do. So, the Bible's being called "infallible" or "the word of God" by people who follow that procedure or its saying that "homosexuality is an abomination" certainly doesn't prove that any of that is actually true, objectively speaking.