It’s no secret that many Christian denominations find themselves at odds with the LGBTQ+ community.
From protests over pronouns to clashes over drag queens reading books to children to businesses refusing to serve gay customers, Christians are often at the forefront of clashes with the LGBTQ+ community.
But are these churchgoers as anti-LGBTQ+ as the headlines suggest?
A new report is shedding some light on that question, and interestingly: the answer might depend on whether they’re in the pews or behind the pulpit.
Pastors More Supportive Than Congregants
The recent study from the Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI) reveals a major disparity between pastors and their congregants when it comes to views toward the LGBTQ+ community.
According to the poll, 90% of church leadership across the seven largest Protestant denominations support laws protecting the LGBTQ+ community from discrimination. That is a whopping 19% more than their congregants, who only support such legal protections at a rate of 71%.
When asked about gay marriage, the disparity becomes even clearer. From the poll: 79% of pastoral leadership support gay marriage, but only a slim majority of American churchgoers – a scant 52% – are in favor.
As expected, the difference between urban and rural communities also plays into this divide. The poll found that city-dwelling church leaders and churchgoers were more likely to support the LGBTQ+ community than their rural counterparts.
So, it would seem there’s a growing divide between church leadership and their congregants on LGBTQ+ issues. Why is that?
Disparity in Education
Some theological experts argue it comes down to a matter of education.
"Clergy in mainline denominations are more likely than their parishioners to have theological and biblical training that makes them familiar with a wider range of interpretive options," explains University of Notre Dame philosophy professor Michael Rea.
"General trends in the USA in the last decade suggest that those who are college-educated and hold professional degrees… tend to be more liberal on questions of gender and sexuality in particular," adds University of San Diego religious studies professor Jacqueline Hidalgo.
Apparently, that trend extends to clergy and church leaders.
Ticking Time Bomb?
Disagreements over LGBTQ+ issues are already putting immense pressure on churches across the country. To cite just one recent example, controversy erupted last year after a Florida church invited a drag queen to give a guest sermon.
Now, the results of this latest poll have some people predicting future conflict in many faith communities.
Experts say there is a real possibility of escalating tensions between the pulpit and the pews – especially given how fraught discussions about LGBTQ+ issues have already become in religious circles.
What do you make of the poll? And what are your predictions for the future?
114 comments
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Klaire Darlene Blunck
There is too much hate and judging in this world. I think , What would Jesus do? God wants us to love God, love People, and not judge them. I have attended a discussion through the Lutheran Church on this subject, and came away knowing that One particular female who became a male is leading many to Christ, and by being a male, is much more safer helping many during the night time hours in hard districts. I don't know what the answer is, except love God, Love others. Sincerely, Klaire
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Jemhal Campbell
The God in which i serve (the father of Jesus) loves each and everyone of us however he is very clear as to how he prefers for us to conduct ourselves and if/when we so chose to not live within that frame work he still loves us however "He" condemns our disobedience and when someone reminds us all of the condemnation by virtue of our disobediences of "His" frame work they're not the passing judgement but only a reminder of it all.
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Michael L Nixon
Hello, I am human, I have feelings. I see what's going on in the world today. I'm ashamed of being a homosexual man. Altho my sexuality is not who I am. It don't define the way I care for another human or treat another human... To be blunt I do not believe in the Bible (My constitutional right) America was built on the backs of refugee's and immigrants.. I'm only saying this because most of the humans who came here to build the America we use to have. Were of different beliefs different religion different ways of life... Not one man or woman who came from other countries WAY before most of us were even born came here to live by God. Infact most fled from the religion of their community to go where there is no law on what religion you believe...This whole sexuality crap has got to stop... Trans good for you for speaking up to tell your story. But as an American a free man I do not have to agree with what your doing. Yes I can be polite as long as your polite. How many genders 2 ... If you believe there are more, more power to you. Please understand not everyone has to believe the way you do... In my experience I've been verbally attacked by trans because I said excuse me sir or mam ... It's called courtesy. It's also polite to turn and calmly and respectfully say I prefer this. But it's always an attitude... That's why people are against it. 3 reasons 1. Because as a human I don't have to agree with you, nor dose the whole world.. 2. So many homosexual men and woman like the same gender homosexuals have put their lives on the line to make way for it to be easier to live as such, more legally and in the open in the last few decades. Then trans come in trying to be a man with genitals of a man, going in to the female bathroom with genitals of a man. It opens a whole new look. Puts fear in the hearts of parents ... If you feel you are a woman then before you go out in a world as a trans cut it off. Then there will be no questions and you look like dress like talk like a lady (without male genitals) you won't be put down so much... Last all the sexuality mombo jumbo being brought in our schools. Hell no!! Stop it!! A child should not even think of sex until at least a teen. And maybe not until after puberty... The brain changes. Nope one last last thing. We care more about gender and all this and taxes are rising cost of living is rising not pay but everything else. Some how some where. The we the people has been forgotten. It's time to be we the people stand up for our rights to live with out tax gouging with out living paycheck to paycheck the American dream was to own a home nice yard nice vehicle, live not be slaves to a government or religion..
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Christine Campbell
Lust in all forms is not healthy or moral. Lust is defined as sinful longing - the inward sin which leads to the falling away from God ( Romans 1:21 ). One who is greedy can lust for money or possessions or a glutton can lust for food etc lust also defined is “very strong sexual desire”
I am supportive of any PURE relationship The Bible says to the pure, all things are pure. (Titus 1:5) I am supportive of LGBTQ. A gay man who is truly gay and falls in love with a man for genuine qualities, I respect. Same for a lesbian or a trans or a drag queen. What makes anything wrong, even for a straight couple, is the LUST.
So this issue shouldn’t be someone “sexual orientation” it should be, Lord is this your will? Pray Matthew 6:9-13, the Lords Prayer. Because if it’s Gods will then it’s right for you.
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Michael L Nixon
Well said!! Thank you!!
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Minister Butterworth
Christianity doesn't need to change. Period. When persons seek to change Christianity to fit their lifestyle, they are going against everything the Bible is trying to teach. Persons must change themselves in accordance with the Bible. This is what God wants of us. Persons are to take nothing away from the Bible nor are they to add anything to the Bible. Rev 22:18-19. The teachings of God are perfect as is and have not the need to be changed.
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Michael L Nixon
Do some research... Check how many times a man not god or Jesus re-wrote the Bible. And those rewriting's came from a book meany eons ago that was not translatable in to American language 🤷 not trying to argue. Do research...
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Minister Butterworth
I have done and continually do research. So man has translated and re-translated the Bible. So some stuff may have been changed a bit. So what? Do you really think God would have the Bible, a Christians instruction on God's Word, commandments, etc to be rendered obsolete or wrong? Persons who changed,omitted, added to, etc the Bible will answer to The Almighty for there actions but the Bible is as God wants it to be. By the way, I appreciate your saying "the American language" instead of the English language. Your rite on there. From reading another of your posts i see you don't believe in the Bible. If you don't mind me asking, do you believe in God? I sternly agree with your words on sexual anything being in school. Kids need to be kids. Sex will be on their minds in high school. I also see you are a homosexual man. I don't hate you. I disagree with that lifestyle but I recognize and support your right to choose how you want to live your life. Don't be ashamed of who you are. Feel free to speak your mind. I enjoy a good discussion.
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Rev Ned
It’s all about fear. Grown “macho” men were scared sh****ss of SCARY rainbows on their Bud Light beer, not bier, cans. Bunch of weenie-wusses!
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John Palmer
Preach love.
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Thomas Christopher Medina
Regarding the LBGTQ+ community. Live and let live! Every individual has the freedom of choice on how to live their life, and no individual should have the authority to impose their beliefs on another. If you can't see eye to eye, stay away from one another, then there is no strife. If God, (being omnipotent and omniscient)has a problem with any individual, I'm sure He can handle it. Regarding the pastoral acceptance of LBGTQ+s in the church, it's more than likely one of two things. Either true Agape, or all about the Benjamins. In either case, I'm so glad that I no longer have to deal with such issues. I stay in my own lane and know that anything outside of that is none of my business.
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Allen Nace
Well. LGBTQ are people too. Just like the staunchest advocate for or against. There are multiple issues. One is Rights. The truth is everyone should have the same human rights. Nothing special and nothing less. The other is the reality. A gay man is well a gay man, a gay woman is well a gay woman. A cross dresser may be either gender and be gay or just dress opposite of their gender. A transsexual is a person. They are either biologically male or female gender in almost all cases. They may identify as one or the other gender. The truth is that they are whatever they were biologically born. Their behavior may be what ever it is. It doesn’t change their biological gender they can identify as whatever they want but others are not required to buy into or believe their alterations of gender. When all that is said and done they are people and must have the same rights v
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Pastor Lawrence
First and foremost the church is a business. The church business can only survive by having a growing congregation. If more of the population are LGBTQ+ (found more so in the larger cities), then you bet the pastor will change his tune to support them.
Personally, I believe that men dressing and acting like women are mentally ill, as are women dressing and acting like men. However, I can see them needing God. Perhaps they can learn the word of God in their own churches, and once healed of this sickness, can join a traditional church. But to subject true Christians, (and other religions) to the LGBTQ illness will not end well for anyone involved.
As for homosexuality, it is an abomination. Men sleeping with men and women sleeping with women is a crime against humanity. The purpose of men and women having relations is to procreate in order to continue the human race. This is why the Bible (an instructional book on living) denounces it. Again, maybe they can learn the word of God in their own churches, and once healed of this sickness, can join a traditional church. But to subject true Christians, (and other religions) to the LGBTQ illness will not end well for anyone involved.
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XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
"First and foremost the church is a business."
And that's 99.99999999999999999999999999999% of the problem with churches today. And why they should pay taxes. If a church is a 501(c)(3) then it shouldn't be a business. Businesses pay taxes.
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Michael L Nixon
Unfortunately we live in America home of the free. Not all Americans believe in God or even the Bible... I for one do not believe in the Bible, a book re-writen how many times just in my 40+ years ? I believe as a homosexual man. Psalm 51:5 states that we all come into the world as sinners: altho we were made in his image, This scriptural passage does not mean that God is in human form, but rather, that humans are in the image of God in their moral, spiritual, and intellectual nature. So even tho your book that was not translatable in the American language.. But says homosexual is an abomination ... I stand by God is with in... God guides us. Spirituality is soul deep. Homosexual is akin deep. If there is a God and a judgement day. I feel way to many Christians being condemned for their judgement against people God made .. homosexuality maybe a choice maybe a chemical imbalance what ever the case maybe stop reading a book and start listening to your God. Blessed be!! Loves hugs and lots of light to all who read this post weather you liked it or not.
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William Reese Chapman
Just consult your Bible for the truth. That you can not change.
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William Reese Chapman
Just consult your Bible. That is something you can't change
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Michael Anthony LaRocca
When I confront this issue, I try to explain a few things... I studied under one of the top Biblical Scholars in the United States. We were taught the Bible is not one book. It is a library of books. In a library you have truth, history, fables, murders, spirituality, sex, betrayal, and so on. The second thing I explain to Christians is that if homosexuality was so important Jesus would have mentioned it somewhere in the Books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Acts. Acts being after his resuurection. Not once does Jesus mention this issue. Not once. However, dear Christian, he does speak about Divorce in many places, to put down the sword (or gun,) to love your neighbor, to not judge, and to love God. Why is it that many Christians will condemn homosexuality, but look the other way, or do things that Jesus actually taught us to do or not to do?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
I've had that explained to me in this very thread, and that 'explanation' is that the "Entire" bible is the "Word of God", not just the words of Christ, therefore EVERY word in the bible must be considered as equal to what Jesus said - though it seems to me many of the things told are actually preferred over what Jesus said, as you allude to.
But what do I know.
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Steven Ferrell
I personally still believe the whole LBGT….. is sin and a mockery to what God intended. However, that being said we do need love everyone and pray for them. We don’t turn our back on those folks, we show them the love of God by treating them with dignity and respect as human beings.
I worked with several Gays and lesbians and was very close friends with them. They respected I didn’t agree with their lifestyle, but respected that I still treated them as friends.
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Brandon Terry
If the Bible is the word of God who is against homosexuality, then you must also accept that He is against anything considered to be impure or of a sensual nature, idolatry (which can go include political leaders people tend to worship), enmity (also known as hostility which I see in many posts), strife (which is any conflict), jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries of any kind, dissensions (disagreements), divisions (which exist even in this topic) as states in Galatians 4:19-21. The fact is that we are to live in peace with each other. You do not have to accept another person’s life, but you absolutely must live in harmony with every other being on this planet, for Jesus Himself gave us the ultimate commandment—to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If you do not agree with who someone is, then it is not your right to vote on something or for someone who will take away their rights because you would not want the same done for yourself. The answer is simple, just do not vote in favor of oppressing another soul. For when you participate in such matters, you are allowing yourself to conform to the patterns of this world (Romans 12:2)—this world, I might add who the devil is said to be the god of (2 Corinthians 4:4). We’ve all heard “love the sinner but hate the sin,” but why is the supposed sin of homosexuality any greater than any other sin? Why is someone allowed to refuse service over someone else’s private affairs when that same individual serves another who also sins? One cannot say that they don’t want to support said “lifestyle” because they would be supporting every sinner. Isn’t it better to just be loving? Can we not just say “I love you” to each other without reducing any one person to something that we have been taught to be a sin? For if we say, “I love you but not your sin,” then we must share such when we greet all people we come to pass. Being truly loving means you love without limitations. I was so happy to become part of an organization at ULC when I saw the statement, “we are all children of the same universe,” with symbols of various belief systems. I thought I found a place that truly supports each other; however, I am truly disheartened to see individuals like ServantOfJudgment who gets mad over the comparison of cities vs rural areas. We need to work together to do better! It is this type of leadership that leads people away from the church, and how do you think God will feel about you being the reason why He lost so many souls? I do not think He will be so happy to see you! Stop using the Bible as a way to control and belittle others to meet your own bias. Teach the love that exists within it and know that you do not have all the answers. Do the proper research with your whole being opened to receive the true Word of God. It’s the only way we can get closer to the light and further from the darkness.
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Christopher W Patmore
Thank you. This was the best reply I have seen so far.
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Kimberly Tyler Timbrell
That was beautiful. That is also why I joined the ULC. It is for God to judge. It is for us to love & accept our fellow humans. In nature %10 of the animal kingdom is homosexual.
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Kevin Metzner
It's says right in the bible, a man shall not lay with a man nor woman with woman. End of story that is law. Go ahead have your Sodom churchs and you will be punished not by many of this world we're called to hate but by the lord. "The Lord is a man of war. The Lord is his name "
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Mrknowitall
Christianity will be changed because Satan works tirelessly to oppose Christ. A large majority of priests are homosexual and homosexuality invites devil spirits to attach themselves to that person.....That's not a good thing !
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Nicole L Lentz
Can you provide a source to verify your claim that "a large majority of priests are homosexual"?
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RAYMOND BENITEZ
The Gay Church Thousands of priests are closeted, and the Vatican’s failure to reckon with their sexuality has created a crisis for Catholicism. They have no reliable figures on just how many priests in the Catholic Church are gay. The Vatican has conducted many studies on its own clergy but never on this subject. In the United States, however, where there are 37,000 priests, no independent study has found fewer than 15 percent to be gay, and some have found as many as 60 percent. The consensus in my own research over the past few months converged on around 30 to 40 percent among parish priests and considerably more than that — as many as 60 percent or higher — among religious orders like the Franciscans or the Jesuits. By Andrew Sullivan.
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John R Liming
There is no way that a spirit-filled Christian, pastor or lay person, could ever support something that God declares to be an abomination in His sight. The Bible is very plain on what same sex perversion is and who it is that Christians should associate themselves with. They need to be prayed for but a real Christian cannot support their actions or their lifestyles. We Christians cannot support their lifestyles or their perverted actions but we can pray for their immortal souls and ask that God lead them to Salvation in Jesus Christ. We have to love them but we cannot take part in their actions.
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Tareq Asfour
America’s religion is a farce
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ServantOfJudgement
Tareq,
Be careful if you're a Christian that doesn't think Jesus was crucified. You may have been mislead.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Yes, it's VERY important you believe Jesus was crucified, because suffering is authority - and who suffered most? Jesus did of course - when he left on his three day death holiday.
Just ask any Christian: What gives Jesus his validity as our savior? Because he suffered and died for us on the cross! Then he hob-nobbed for 40 days before leaving for important God stuff.
Still don't believe suffering is authority? Ask any Catholic mom.
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Dan Anderson
Seeing the pastoral group more understanding of LGBT issues, it makes much more sense than the congregation.
So much of what people take as being 'condemning homosexuality' in the Bible has NOTHING to do with it. For example, Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13 is about the condemnation of the Caananites using male temple prostitutes in their religious ceremonies. It had nothing to do with two people who are in love with each other.
Looking at 1Cor6-9, in the more recent publications of the Bible, it does mention 'the homosexual'. HOWEVER, if one looks at KJV1611, it says NOTHING about it.
Then, we have Paul's writing in Romans 1:26-30. Again, it is completely misunderstood. What Paul was writing about was his distaste for an ancient Roman fertility ritual to the goddess Diana, hoping for increased crops and improved lambings. At the end of this ceremony, people would engage in a massive orgy. Again, nothing about homosexuality.
I know, there will be some people saying 'What about Sodom & Gomorrah?' If one actually takes the time to read it, it mentions that the cities were destroyed because of inhospitality and rape, not people who love each other and are of the same gender.
One could go on for hours about the misconceptions on this subject, but basically, this is one of the major reasons why the ministry is less anti-LGBT than their parish participants.
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ServantOfJudgement
Dan,
I'm sorry but your cherry picking with blinders. You're lawyering the word to meet your case. You don't have to like it, agree with it or believe it. The bible is in clear opposition to homosexual relationships. If you're sincere about God's word, start in Genesis and pray for understanding.
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Merlin
Neutrality is always the best course in belief systems. Any partiality has traps.
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Theresa C. Marquess
The teachings in Romans Chapter 1 are quite clear. The Bible does not condone any kind of LGBTQ+ behavior. Those clergy, laypeople, and congregates need to open their Bibles and do a bit of studying.
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Joe Stutler
That's just silly! Also, 1Timothy 2:12.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Comment removed by user.
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ServantOfJudgement
Theresa,
When I read Romans for the first time only recently, I was in disbelief with how anyone could ever deny the Bible opposed homosexual relationships. Total disbelief. It's right there in black and white. I'll add, my own behavior was laid out as a no-no. It's strong medicine for anyone in need of healing, not just homosexuals.
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Lionheart
When I read, Songs of Solomon, I was uplifted, and then quickly poured myself a drink to calm down 🤭
I’m going to be dressed as God for my Halloween costume this year. You won’t be able to see me, I’ll be invisible. 🤭
🦁❤️
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Lionheart, I've decided to stay home on Halloween this year, so instead of buying a costume I bought Halloween and Day of the Dead door decorations, and a bag of candy for trick or treaters, that I haven't had come to my door yet in this neighborhood, but a nice Mexican family moved in next door, so I thought maybe their grandkids would go trick or treating. I also bought an outdoor plaque of the Mexican Pagan saint of the dead (Santa Muerte) to put on my door every year in October, but found out the woman of the house is a Christian, and against and offended by such things, so since they're good neighbors regardless of our differences, I told her I won't put it on my door (until after they move out). However, I didn't tell her about my other outdoor Halloween decorations, and am not going to! So I guess on Halloween I'll be pigging out on candy, while watching the DVDs I bought this month, including the fifth season of Ghost Whisperer, and season 9 part 1 of Ghost Hunters, and then listening to my ghost CD by Llewellyn, and burn a candle and some incense. It's a good thing I live in a haunted apartment, or I'd probably spend Halloween all by myself. But I won't start eating the candy until late into the night, just in case I get a knock at my door, and it's someone in an invisible god suit. And if that happens I'll probably throw candy at him, and leave it on the ground for the dumb supper, in case wandering ghosts get hungry during the night.
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ServantOfJudgement
Alas, you'll have no aura of blinding glory. Guessing a cheap slave made costume from China....
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Lionheart
I had thought of wearing a while dress like Jesus, or even possibly god, and my beard gives it away that I'm not female. In this stupid woke world of ours, I can identify to be whatever I want, so I'm going to identify as God and my pronouns will be Lord/Holiness. Does anyone have a bush I can burn? 👼🏼
🦁♥️
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Rev. MichaelRS
The link does not seem to be working. To address this issue I would simply encourage you to search,
"Open the Bible 7 traits of false teachers."
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
https://www.believeoutloud.com/voices/article/clobbering-biblical-gay-bashing/
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ServantOfJudgement
Thank you thank you thank you Rev M! I'm so glad you directed me there. Those points make great sense and they're backed by biblical quotations I've already read. Perfect! My firewall has been upgraded!!! Woot!!
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Robert Gagnon
They only see the money from more attendance. Guess they didn't notice the bud lite stock price.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Oh no, a crappy beer company is going out of business. Meanwhile gays generally drink higher alcoholic content drinks. Lol y’all lost your little minds when Budweiser wanted to sell to other demographics. Which says a lot about your silly insecurities. It’s okay to be gay. Just come on out. You can still be a right wing bigot. Like most other log cabin republicans. 🤷🏻♂️
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Christopher W Patmore
And bud was already dropping before they tried to increase there demographic. THAT'S WHY THEY TRIED IT! It worked . Then they caved to the celebrity backlash & sells went back down. It's a fact.
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Lionheart
Sales of Bud have actually gone back up since they’ve been selling a new brand of ale with Donald Trumps face on it. They did consider putting Bidens face on it, but didn’t want to go out of existence altogether.
🦁❤️
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Bud is a lager, not an ale.
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ServantOfJudgement
Naw Robert, I stopped drinking Budweiser before it was cool to not drink the junk. Maybe 10 years ago I think. They got caught adding water to finished product, as if it needed any more water. They screwed their loyals over but like dogs, they returned to their vomit. I'm usually ahead of the curve on social movements. I got tire of global warming back when it was global cooling.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Lmao you’re about 100 years behind still. They were wrong about global cooling. Which in the scientific community is still an exciting thing because they still learned from the data. Which is still a lot more ahead than you pretend to be. As for global warming. Which has been exacerbated by human activity the last 500 years since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution, it’s affected climate change. The weather patterns have been hot and unstable. I never drank it. I always drank home made wines, vodkas, crown mixes, whatever tickled my particular alcohol craving. Which was usually higher in alcohol content than beer.
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ServantOfJudgement
That makes sense Robert, I'm pretty old thinking. If I say any more about Climbing Change this whole thread will shift course. Let's save that for another day. On the cans of water called beer, I dig. I just finished 30 gallon of concord wine and about 15 gallon of other grape wine, white and red. It's nice to take our minds off the troubled world is it not? The missus gets a little itchy with me as I trial the wine throughout its fermentation process, she worries there'll be none left when it's finally done. A fair concern from experience. My argument to her is a carpenter must measure as he goes if he expects decent results. So it is true with wine building I say. She won't buy it though....
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Rev Mark D
"Ticking time bomb?" Only for the pastors, they work for the congregation and synod (or whatever applies). They lead the flock, but they don't dictate to it. If I go too far, they can be "de-flocked." Look at the United Methodist Church recently (it has been in the popular press for the last several years so you won't have any problem learning about it) for a Church-wide example of such.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Rev. Mark, You're right, they don't dictate, but they do lead. That the leaders of the church are living and believing something that clergy have been taught is more "Christ-like", I believe the numbers speak for themselves.
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James Riggle-Johnson
I’m surprised by the poll. I would have thought that church leaders were more against the LGBTQ community rather than their congregations. I do believe the problem only gets worse from here. There are so many Christians that refuse to give an inch when it comes to LGBTQ.
They claim to follow the teachings of Jesus, but they also thrive on hatred of this and other issues they disagree with. They believe that freedom of religion gives them the right to discriminate. “I don’t have to wait on this person because their lifestyles go against my deeply held religious beliefs.” When you’re hired to do a job with the public, you can’t choose which public you chose to help. Freedom of Religion gives you the right to worship however you choose. Yet, in every corner of the USA religion is trying to tell us what we should read, watch, and what medical care should be available to everyone.
I realize Christians and other religions have tried this in the past, but they ultimately fail, and they will again. The question is how much damage they will cause in the meantime. I wish I could be a fly on the wall when God, Jesus, or whoever finally tells them they had it wrong all along.
Signed, A Concerned Christian. 😊
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Dan Anderson
James - Where in the Bible does Jesus even mention anything about homosexuality? I certainly cannot find any passages regarding that.
Citations, please.
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James Riggle-Johnson
I never mentioned that Jesus said anything about homosexuals. What I did say was that Christians pretend to follow the teachings of Jesus, but then hate those who are different. Meaning... Jesus didn't teach them to hate anyone. He actually said DO NOT JUDGE and that's pretty much what they spend their time doing. I never said Jesus was for or against homosexuality.
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Steven Ferrell
Why do people always stop at Do not judge? There is more to it than that. It goes on later to say, for by measure you judge, you she’ll be judged. So it is between you and God at that point.
But we are to also call sin, sin.-
James Riggle-Johnson
I am talking about the people who go way beyond calling sin a sin. Those who say let them be put to death specially. It is not the right of any religion to put anyone to death. Yes, let God judge me. Others can judge me to themselves. They shouldn’t try to make my life a living hell on earth.
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ServantOfJudgement
As written Dan, the entire document is the word of God. The do's and don'ts that any of the prophets or apostles say are from God. If you read the bible only for the quotations of Jesus, you should toss the whole book, it'll be useless to you.
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James Riggle-Johnson
SOJ, The Bible is the word of God interpreted by men who craved power and control over the converts. If God truly wanted his word written down for all to read, he/she would do it themselves and not leave it to power hungry men who lie as easily as they breath.
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Nicole L Lentz
EXACTLY!! I will never understand how more people don't understand this.
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James Riggle-Johnson
SOJ, this is the kind of hate I'm talking about. https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2023/10/a-man-tried-to-burn-down-a-gay-bar-because-he-hated-the-word-queer-hes-going-away-for-years/
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Yes Dan, SOJ speaks the truth. The name of the religion is "Christianity", named after "Christ" - but in order to join the club you have to swear allegiance to ALL the baggage, New Testament AND old, including Satan, and agree to abide by EVERY word in the bible, not just that of the namesake for whom the religion was founded. What would be the point of anything else?
It takes a stout heart and an inflexible commitment to "faith" (which really boils down to trust - the con-man's stock-in-trade - make of that what you will), but it's done all the time, so I am confident if you put your will into it, you will have no trouble at all.
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Larry Leslie Barnes
That's right it is not in the Bible at all.
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Patricia Ann Gross
James, if you read the article, it is talking about the Protestant denominations, which exclude most of the evangelical, Catholic, non-denomination, and other more conservative denominations. That being the case, I believe the numbers to likely being spot-on and consistent with my experience within these denominations.
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Nicholas J Page
This is the future not the past were all human it's our views are getting better and about time we have 2 gay girls living above us we laugh joke although not about them being gay and we race to put our rubbish and recycling bins out for collection all a laugh who wins.That is what life should be like.NO DISCRIMINATION.
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James Mounts
I suspect you might be less accepting if your neighbor were a 180-pound trans who knocked you down in order to win your cute little race.
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Joe Stutler
Gosh, and some trans women are even bigger than that! Oh my! Also, homophobia and transphobia are treatable illnesses. Please consult with a licensed mental health care professional for more information and help. You don't have to suffer.
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James Mounts
So are homosexuality and transsexuality. Stop expecting others to cater to your life-style choices.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
And how exactly are any homosexuals or transsexuals making you "cater" to their lifestyle choices?
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James Mounts
Well, genius, for a start, by cutting off their male genitals and insisting I treat them as a female. Mis-gendering someone can cost one his or her job.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
First off, thank you for calling me "Genius". It is entirely undeserved, of course, as I am just a simple social justice warrior, fighting for a more equal world for all. Surely you agree we all deserve a fair chance - right? Surely you agree there are those who see themselves as constant victims, who in reality are demanding unreasonable accommodation because in reality they are not the ones who suffer - they are just the ones who complain.
Back in the day people used to respect another's physical infirmity. If somebody was deformed from birth, it was considered impolite to point and laugh. If they were missing a limb, or an eye, or a mental faculty, people made an effort to count themselves lucky and not make the victim feel "different".
Those days are long gone. Instead we have conservative politics which seeks to exploit the different, the ostracized, the lame, making them 'useful' for consolidating the xenophobic paranoid rabid right-wing vote, ensuring right-wing prominence - and right-wing grifting.
It works.
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Christopher W Patmore
When I was in gradeschool I got beat up twice by someone else in a dress.... but I eventually grew up & got over it.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Yes - education, empathy, consideration, kindness - this also speaks to why diversity tends to be much more accepted in cities than the more sparsely populated areas - because they see for themselves that the LGBTQ+ aren't demons, but just people, like them.
It's interesting the more educated, then more compassionate, the more knowledgeable, the more sophisticated a person is, the more likely they are to be accepting, and less likely to be xenophobic, paranoid, judgmental.
That's just the truth.
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ServantOfJudgement
City folk always think they're crap doesn't stink. Out here in the country is where they dump the stuff once it's 'treated'. It goes on the cornfields used to make your nacho chips and corn flakes. When y'all think your crap don't stink, I beg to differ. It wreaks to high heaven along with your murder rate, homelessness, drug zombie camps, gang violence, riots, prostitution, reckless driving, rudeness, indifference, belligerence, corruption, belching factories, haughtiness and chocking arrogance.
Cities gather the hive minded animals that vote for more hive. It's inhabitants are swarms of locusts consuming everything in sight. The Borg of Star Trek comes to mind, sprawling outward always and terraforming beautiful countryside into concrete circuitry designed to rape resources from the country so they can expand their ailing society like an incurable plague all while screaming environment, environment, environment! Assimilation is their goal, assimilation into their quagmire of moral bankruptcy and delusion.
How sophisticated, how elegant, how refined, how interesting, how tragic.
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Patricia Ann Gross
SOJ, your name says it all. If you think that murder, homelessness, drug zombie camps, gang violence, riots, prostitution, reckless driving, rudeness, indifference, belligerence, corruption, belching factories, haughtiness and choking arrogance do not exist in the rural areas, you have your head buried in the sand. Try looking in the mirror, and you'll see at least half of those adjectives. Drugs are everywhere. Crime is everywhere. Homelessness is everywhere. These don't just exist in the cities. They just hide better in the country. Anyone can be rude, indifferent, belligerent, corrupt and arrogant, not just "city folk." For someone who is putting them down being arrogant, judgemental, or just proud of where they live, sounds a lot like arrogance and being judgemental to me.
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ServantOfJudgement
Patrica,
Servant of Judgement is the meaning of my actual name. The meaning of my full name is God's gracious and precious Servant of Judgement.
Now that we've got that square city folk, I live in the country. The only thing like that out here is on the exit ramps of the super highway they just cut through nature to pipe the never ending and never enough resources being gobbled up by the city near me. On the exit ramps of the highway to your cities you'll find meth heads and prostitutes tricking truckers that bring you Starbuck and bubble tea. Sometimes the prostitutes never comes back, you know that happens when their car stays on the ramp for over a week. When the city folk that produce nothing to sustain their lives cut the super the highway they displace bald eagles, cut out oak savannah and filled in wetlands with asphalt. The concrete circuit screams day and night in a once silent countryside as it tries to fill your insatiable demands for more, more, more. Frogs no longer hear their mating calls in the remaining wetlands, eagles have moved on and the old oaks rot in the mud, not the human mud you dump on the feild you eat later, actual mud.-
Lisbeth Kieran Bushey
SOJ, I grew up in a very rural area. We had a unique issue with mobile meth labs, drugs coming over the northern border, pot grows hidden in the miles of woodlands, and people getting DUIs on tractors.
Prostitution, murder, and sexual violence were and still are rampant there. You're lucky if a child molester even gets arrested there, let alone given any sort of substantial punishment beyond a couple years of probation. With miles of open road with little traffic comes people driving well over 100 down roads where children play and animals may get out from their pastures. The government there is so corrupt it isn't even funny. Maybe two or three extended families run absolutely everything there. If you aren't friendly with them or related to them, good luck getting anywhere politically.
There's also still gangs - they're just different gangs. AKA all-White gangs. AKA the literal KKK and other violent groups. Bonfire meetings are extremely common and they traffic in drugs and weapons. Many of them are also in local politics and law enforcement.
The schools are dirt poor and can't attract quality teachers. I used textbooks published before I was born in high school and they were not only falling apart, but there wasn't enough of them for everyone. People always were bringing weapons and drugs into school because there was no security. You could have hard drugs like heroin in your possession by lunchtime, pot within a single class period if not immediately.
In contrast, the city I live in now has a lower per capita crime rate than the county I grew up in and the population of the metro area alone exceeds the entire county I grew up in. Even with the gangs, it's safer to walk down the street at 2am than it is to hang out after school at 2pm where I grew up.
The state is New York. The county I grew up in is so deep red no Democrats really have a chance. The city I'm in is deep blue.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_violent_crime_rate
Well, what do you know - The states that dominate the top 10 of violent crime rate are rural states.
Glad we've got that square.
Care to search where the National Priorities Superfund sites are? Guess what - they aren't in the cities.
https://www.epa.gov/superfund/search-superfund-sites-where-you-live#map
Glad we've got that square too.
I also can't help but notice how you sit at your computer pinching out your pontifications about all the evils of humanity - on your computer that was made in a factory, invented by large groups of people in universities, supported by technology only made possible by massive industries working together.
Tut tut.
Tell me more about who thinks their crap doesn't stink - and then tell me all about hypocrisy, of which you are an obvious expert, Servant of Ego.
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ServantOfJudgement
The crime link is by state. Cities are in states. The crime is in the city. You proved my point. I lived in a hotel in Chicago for a year. Saw a crooked cop plant evidence in a drug dealers van that was moving grass through the hotel. Trust me, I'm just afraid of Chicago cops as I am the drug lords. 2 miles from my hotel a playground was shot up by some nice gangstas. Just about every brand of government in Chicago is corrupt. It's filth incarnate.
I work in a factory. I've been in factories across the country, Canada, Mexico and England. Factories come out to the country to avoid taxes and it's easier to belch filth into the air and streams. All of these companies brainwash city folk into thinking they're green, they're not. You're getting lied to.
Our computers are made by slaves in China. Atheism likes to bash God because he gave rules to wicked men when they enslave as he knows we will. Your Chinese slave have no such luxury. They are slaves proper.
I know my crap stinks and bad. Real bad. When I rough it in my woods and take a crap out there, I bury it. I sure as s**t don't put it on my garden.
Environment environment environment!!! Oh gosh, gimme a break or a glass of scotch.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
"The crime link is by state. Cities are in states. The crime is in the city."
This explains your view.
It's the difference between crime quantity and crime rate.
Who commits crime? People do. Where are the people? Where there are people! DUH.
But if your thinking were what you think it is, the highest crime would be where there are the most people. Those states hardly have the most people - but what the FACTS show is they have the MOST crime RATIO to people.
For a given number of people, rural areas have MORE crime.
Here SOJ, this will help you to not be taken in so easily in the future: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51291.How_to_Lie_with_Statistics
And for a 'rural' person your knowledge of fertilizer and it's origin is woefully inadequate.
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ServantOfJudgement
You're ruled by charts and stats. I'm ruled by observation. You discover via Google, I use my senses.
You believe what the data days, that can be manipulated. I believe what my eyes see. That's that.
They dump sludge on our fields and it stinks for about 2 years.
Sludge- Semisolid material such as the type precipitated by sewage treatment.
They don't do a very good job treating it I must say.
I'd be careful trying to educate a farm boy on fertilizer Kenneth. We know the difference between crap from a human, composted poo from horses or goats and fertilizer derived from oil. We don't need google or wikipedia to sort it out.
The godless industrial farmers get paid handsomely by city folk to spread on their deleted soil. The little local farmers don't do it. Mankind loves his own filth it seems. They defend their filthy practices as you do with vigor, law and police. Do not try to stop the sludge from coming, you will lose. They dump their crap and then they eat it again and again and again. How sophisticated.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
So you are a person of faith, even in science and statistics, SOJ?
In other words, you live in your imagination, and then expect everybody else to cater to it.
Sorry SOJ, but I don't believe your imagination, I believe facts, which explains most of our disagreements - and that's a fact.
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ServantOfJudgement
When science says it's safe to eat our own crap, it seems obvious they're a little touched in the head. You wanna buy into the charts and graphs that show it's safe, go for it. I don't. Diseases can be and are transmitted that way, through the plants. They do this with many things and run our future into the ground. I shiver when I think of the poor souls that took the warp speed poisonous jab. Trumps a bleeping idiot, a mother trucking idiot for that. Bidens a stupid lump of dumb. They both make me puke over their blind trust of the scientific crack heads. Good God, they're even talking about blocking the sun to save the planet. Talk about stupid, my God, these people have the foresight of a jellyfish.
No, I don't think the animal minds that slobber when they speak are all that bright, not one bit.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Prove it SOJ. Show where disease is being spread endemically by accepted horticultural practices.
I eagerly await your response.
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Alun Lloyd Palmer
The name 'Servant of Judgement' sounds like a demon?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Thank you for gracing us with your sociopathic outlook SOJ.
It was a very educational read.
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Minister Butterworth
Soj,
Being a rural person, i appreciate your response.
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Christopher W Patmore
While their is some truth to that; I grew up in Kentucky ( still not one of the best in education ) , & in a small town in the county that doesn't even exist now. My parents taught me that we are all the same; it's how we treat others that matters. It's not always about education, location & station; some of the best educated, from the best neighborhoods & "best" bloodline, are some of the most hatefull. Sometimes it's just a question of right or wrong. It's wrong to disallow someone just because they are different from you.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
It sounds like your parents educated you well.
Some people 'get it', while it seems other people, no matter how 'educated', remain clueless.
Generally though, the more you know, the more you know - in my experience.
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Richard David Atwood
Seems to me like the Bible covered this subject fairly well. Sleeping with the same sex, changing your God given sex, calling yourself a sex that you clearly are not, are defined as an abomination against God himself. So how can anyone, who try's to live by the rules of the Bible, be anything but disgusted by those who do those things. How can anyone who is a member of any of those groups, or agrees with them, be a Pastor? If you want to live that kind of life, then enjoy yourself while you can. It's probably not gonna be fun for long. By the way, the last thing you demented people want to do, is to try to force people who understand these simple Bible facts, to think you are normal, because you are not, and we know it, and will tell you so. This country is becoming a third world **** hole. Between the government, and people who believe they are smarter and better than God, you have destroyed this country and a lot of other countries around the world.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Writing. Most of things you rant listed weren’t actually created by god. They were created by ignorant bigots who knew not what they were talking about. Who forced and brainwashed the people around them to believe as they do. The truth. Your lot have been murdering, shaming, and shoving your beliefs down our throats first. Never forget that what you’re projecting is just a fear of karma coming back to give you a kick in the pants. It’s really easy to be a pastor who does his research and realizes the truth of our major religions. In that they’re just political organizations seeking to put a thumb on everyone who isn’t part of their cult.
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John Condron
The poll indicates that the people most knowledgeable about the Bible are the most pro-LGBTQ+. That is, the apposite of what you are saying, Richard. The Bible does not, in fact, "cover (these) subject(s) fairly well." I think it is fair to say that pastors might be more familiar with Jesus' teachings about loving one another than their congregants... or you.
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David Buck
Without taking a position one way or the other, I tend to agree with Mr Atwood, that the subject has been covered in the Bible. Remember, the Bible consists of more than just the teachings of Jesus as presented in the New Testament. While the New Testament does not seem to prohibit homosexuality, the Old Testament certainly does, and pretty succinctly too. Genesis 19:1-11, Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13 Judges 19:16-24, 1 Kings 23:7, Romans 1:18-32, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, 1 Timothy 1:8-10, and Jude 7 all speak to this point. The New Testament does not automatically cancel everything in the Old. This subject is what has riven the Anglican Church. The ordination by the Church of England of openly gay priests and blessing same-sex marriages has resulted in archbishops from 10 conservative provinces of the Anglican Communion declared a state of "impaired communion" with the Church of England and announced that they no longer recognise the Archbishop of Canterbury as "first among equals" among the bishops of the Anglican Communion. The GAFCON movement is the result.
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Patricia Ann Gross
David, I don't understand how someone can take such a hard stand as this and cite scripture when the same scripture also outlaws eating shellfish, pork, sleeping or touching a menstruating woman, and 815 or so other "laws" that most Christians don't uphold. Maryland churches have festivals and feasts during crab season Texas churches hold barbeques with pork ribs. I've never seen a "tampon" or "pad" check of a woman before allowing her into church. Why aren't these laws just as important?
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Minister Butterworth
Scripture says all foods are good for consumption.
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ServantOfJudgement
Richard,
You are indeed correct. The Bible does indeed object to homosexual relationships. It objects to quite a few things USA culture has embraced. We all in part contribute to our inevitable judgement. The troubling thing is when people use the word hate against someone who merely says what the Bible says. Like me, I'm told I'm hateful bigot for saying the bible is opposition to homosexuality. If I say the sky is green, who am I to get angry with someone for telling me it's blue?
People don't have to like it. They don't have to agree with it. They don't have to believe the bible or what it says. However, they can not say the bible doesn't say it because it's in black and white in the bible. The Bible is in opposition to homosexual relationships.
I'd say I'm sorry but I didn't write the bible.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Servant, Do you eat shrimp or crabs? How about pork chops? Do you cook two different meats in the same pan without ritually washing them? Do you kill your child for talking back to you? If your brother died, did you agree to marry his widow? The Bible is full of demands that are no longer practiced today, but I guess you didn't read that part. If you're right, we must all be doomed to hell. I for one believe in a benevolent God. I believe that God loves creation and humankind.
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ServantOfJudgement
Patrica,
The FDA and CDC agree with most of the Bibles dietary restrictions. We know these foods carry pathogens, heavy metals and are somewhat risky. When science agrees with the Bible, you know you've got good science.Hunter Biden boinked his dead brothers wife. Not sure if he knocked her up as the Bible commands though. Then again, he's not an ancient Israelite. God wanted the people of Israel to be healthy and prosperous. He didn't want the men to die without passing on their genes. That is until the Christ was born. Such rules need not be followed but many could be followed for a clean healthy life.
According to Jesus an angry thought against ones brother is equal to murder in God's eyes so I suppose I have metaphorically killed my children when they disrespect me. That's an extreme rarity though. My children seem to like my company quite a bit and I feel the same way. As vicious as I seem here is as loving as I am for them. We have a peaceful home. I don't bible thump them or make anybody feel inadequate. Here I speak on it because that's what this site is.
You're right though, God most definitely loves all of us with his whole heart.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
So now you agree with the FDA and CDC?
How very interesting.
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Minister Butterworth
In the new testament Jesus proclaimed all foods to be good for consumption. He said what goes into the mouth does not defile the body, but what comes out of our mouth.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
https://www.believeoutloud.com/voices/article/clobbering-biblical-gay-bashing/
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ServantOfJudgement
Kenneth,
That's a long read, I saw the most important statement right off.
"We have used the Bible to support, promote and act upon some pretty un-Christian things"
The author who is not a Christian, when he made that statement he was right. Non christians indeed have brutalized mankind using the power of the Bible to deceive, such is the way of Satan. That won't end until my Lord returns.
All verse quotations made are interpreted incorrectly as the Bible says will happen when the faithless read it.
Sorry about that but you've been dupped. Still an interesting perspective. Wrong but interesting.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Servant, I was wondering why you think the author is not Christian. He doesn't say that. Is it because he interprets the Bible diffferently than you? Please explain.
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ServantOfJudgement
James,
The authors language is filled with disdain for christians. You'll find the same here from many many members. Actual christians will have empathy for christians perceived as misled, never display pure loathing for them as the author does.
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James Riggle-Johnson
SOJ, I guess it’s all comes down to interpretation. I didn’t hear disdain when I read it. I heard disappointment. It’s all about interpretation. I too am Christian, and I definitely have disdain for the people who wield Christianity as a weapon to be used against those they find unworthy.
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Minister Butterworth
Jr-j,
Instead of feeling disdain for those who are lost, you could consider praying for them.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
I asked you once why you weren't benefitting Christian sites with your diligent biblical scholarship and substantial Christian wisdom, and you answered to the effect that you really didn't fit in, that you didn't really agree with what you were seeing at Christian organizations.
I begin to really see why you named yourself "ServantOfJudgement" - because you do.
All the time.
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Deborah A Boyle
Please reread the whole of Leviticus and tell me you follow each and every rule. I very much doubt it. Bargain basement Catholics pick and chose what is good for their opinion and yes it is an opinion and not a truth. I am so tired of those who pick and chose what’s good for their mindset. By the way when did you chose to be heterosexual as everyone accuses homosexuals.
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XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
"Please reread the whole of Leviticus and tell me you follow each and every rule."
The idea is intent. We all fall short. No one is perfect. There's a difference between intentionally breaking the law and "accidentally" breaking the law.
That's why we have in this country a crime of murder and a crime of manslaughter. The difference is intent.
If I drop my pistol and it fires and kills you, that is manslaughter. The law says I killed a person but it was an accident. I didn't intent to do it. If I don't like you and shoot you out of dislike, the law says that is murder and I intended to kill you. The penalty for murder and manslaughter is different because of intent.
But go ask the Orthodox Jews who eat kosher and don't work on the sabbath and don't cut their hair and own tow sets of dishes so they don't lix meat and milk, and who won't turn on a light on the Sabbath and who literally live in the 0 century. They literally do follow every single law in Leviticus.
Me, I can't do it. I have to be Reform because I like Pork BBQ. I like oysters on the half shell. I like to turn the TV on on Saturday. I like to get in my truck and drive on Saturday, I like to use the Internet on Saturday, I like to have a beer now and then. If the boss calls, I go to work on Saturday. But yes ma'am there are actually people who do try to genuinely live by every single rule in Leviticus.
There's a lady at synagogue who won't shake my hand because God says it's a sin for her to touch a man because I'm not her husband, brother, father, or son. But if she falls down the synagogue steps and grabs me while she's falling to steady herself, that's not a sin ~ there was no intent.
When a person makes a decision to go have sex with another, whether it's a male or female or animal, that's a choice, not an accident. He/she can prevent that and obey the applicable commandment in the Torah and Bible and Quran that may prohibit the act.
I'm reminded of the line from Die Hard when Bruce Willis caught his friend cheating with his wife, "It was an accident? Oh, so you just tripped and fell and stuck your ---- in my wife?"
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Nicole L Lentz
Why do you feel the need to "Tell you so"?
I believe in God, I don't expect anyone else to. Nor do I judge, shame, or ostracize anyone for their beliefs. Why on earth do you think that you have the authority to force your beliefs on anyone? I can no longer count myself as a Christian by it's current meaning. I refuse to be included in a group that has become a judgemental, money grabbing farce. God is embarrassed for you. Live and let live.-
Minister Butterworth
Nicole,
Christianity has not changed any at all. Theres just an all time high in charlatans twisting it for their own sick and greedy purposes. Hold fast to your faith and spread the word to all because Gods teachings, his word and his love are as strong as ever and just as relevant.
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Good day brothers and sisters. Let's make this short, simple and to the point. If we put only 2 people of the same sex on an island; what would happen? The world will end.
Galatians 6:8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. The Bible is our practice and beliefs. It's not about our thoughts but implementing what the bible teaches us. It's a difficult task. so, if we tweak the Bible, then we need to tweak the ten commandments. Then we need to tweak the amendment the constitution. We should start by allowing the priest to marry.