Earlier this year, we wrote about Oklahoma's education head mandating that the Bible be put in every public school classroom statewide.
At the time he issued the Bible order, Oklahoma’s Superintendent of Public Instruction, Ryan Walters, assured the public that the Bible mandate would not put a strain on school budgets. Supporters suggested that Bibles could be donated by local churches, for example. Apparently, that plan has since gone out the window – Walters now wants Oklahomans to foot the bill.
Not only that, but Walters’ quest to get a Bible in every classroom has a hefty price tag of $6 million. The big question: should Oklahoma taxpayers pony up?
The 6 Million Dollar Plan
The seven figure amount was reportedly requested by Walters during a recent budget meeting of the Oklahoma State Board of Education.
“This would give us the ability to utilize $6 million in less than two years to ensure that the Bible hasn’t been driven out of Oklahoma classrooms,” he stated during the meeting. “That would be a significant step for the state of Oklahoma to ensure that we’re not allowing the left to censor American history.”
Walters said he wants to use the taxpayer funds to purchase brand new, commentary-free King James Version editions of the Bible. Interestingly, he added that Bible versions including U.S. historical documents, like the Constitution, would also be suitable.
Some Reddit users found this stipulation strange, as the U.S. Constitution is not typically included in the Bible.
In the r/oklahoma subreddit, one user put forward a possible explanation:
"It sounds like he's trying to purchase those Bibles that Trump was hawking a few months back. I've never seen a Bible with "other key historical documents like the US constitution."
As a Christian, it really bothers me that 1) the US constitution is being snuck into what I consider a sacred text and 2) that the state is forcing my religion on someone else."
State Rep. Mickey Dollens echoed this theory, noting that, "Conveniently, the 'Trump Bible' is the King James Version and includes the U.S. Constitution."
Regardless of where the texts are being sourced, there was also some sticker shock at the biblical price tag. According to Ballotpedia, in 2022 Oklahoma had 41,323 public school teachers. Running some quick math, spending $6 million dollars to put a Bible in each teacher's classroom would mean a cost of $145.20 per Bible.
Some say that's an outrageous amount to pay.
Speaking of the Constitution...
Is Oklahoma's plan legal? The issue very well could end up in court. But for now, Walters insists that the policy has nothing to do with religion. He says every public school teacher in the state should have a Bible in the classroom because it’s a “historical document” important to American history. In other words, its religious content is secondary, and is supposedly not intended to influence the beliefs of children.
But critics say that argument doesn't hold water. They assert the Bible mandate is a clear violation of separation of church and state – especially when using millions in taxpayer funds to pay for it.
We posted a local news clip covering the story:
“Oklahoma’s constitution specifically says that the state Board of Education cannot do what they are trying to do,” explained State Sen. Mary Boren. “The Oklahoma provision in our Constitution establishes a higher bar of separation of church and state.”
Rep. Dollens added: “this is what it looks like when Christian nationalism attempts to take over public education.”
“Public schools are not Sunday schools,” Dollens said, describing the Bible-in-every-classroom campaign as “a Christian nationalist crusade to impose their religious agenda on everyone else's children.”
However, in a state where nearly 80% of residents identify as Christian, it's yet to be seen how much pushback there will be to the policy. If it stands, Oklahoma taxpayers of every faith (and no faith at all) will likely be footing the bill to put the Holy Bible in classrooms across the state very soon.
What is your reaction?
[UPDATE 10/8/24]: Ryan Walters posted a fiery response from his official government account on X clarifying that the requirements for Bibles purchased for Oklahoma schools would be updated following widespread criticism that the policy was written in such a narrow way as to ensure that only the "Trump Bible" would qualify:
135 comments
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Bond Wright
Father JJ: Thanks so much for your brilliant comments.
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Cheryl Pettijohn
Walters wants the taxpayers to pay for his indoctrination
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Timothy Brian Brent
I’m not even for Trump, but would you can’t get around is separation of church and state at you’re trying to shove both together. That’s illegal against the constitution wake up.
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Scott F. Transue
Trump scam.
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John R
I hope most people do not underestimate these puritans. This is about taking over the society for their dominion. And it works too well. I mean, they just took 6 million from taxpayers and gave it to their big monkey for fun.
The giveaway is that the neo-reformers want the 10 Commandments posted. Not the Beatitudes or any of Jesus' teachings. But what Commandment does Israel not break? Israel is a theocracy that acts as godless as any on earth. These neo-puritans have no interest in morality, it is about taking control of education and empowering their tribe.
Prior generations were very serious about keeping religion out of the commons. It was a bedrock of our constitutional foundation. I hope Oklahoma looks hard at the issue before surrendering it!
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Russel A. Kester
I want to that the staff on the blog for the update.
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Rudolph M Garza
My opinion? I think 6 million dollars could have been better spent on educational supplies.
Secondly, so long as it’s just one Bible just sitting on a shelf as a reference and teachers are not proselytizing, no problem. No Representative is making a move to remove the Bible from inauguration or “In God We Trust” from currency. Exactly how “Seperation of Church and State” is interpreted I will leave to “couch experts” and Constitutional lawyers.
I can still remember when religion was not even mentioned in the classroom. It was simply the morning Pledge of Allegiance and on with class without religion, race, or politics ever being mentioned. “The good ‘ol days”, by the way, weren’t that “good”. There were other problems, problems that would make a good topic for another day.
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Teresa Freeman
Teach them when they are young and when they are older they will not depart , it's up to the leader of the home to instill God and His love for all His children and to teach that God is the only true God , post the ten commandments at school , say the pledge of allegiance and orate a prayer that God's will be done , the Bible is our sword and confirmation that we are Gods family , all the way to Seth , Satan is the author of confusion , shouldn't be multiple religions and wouldn't be if we followed the Law of God, put no other God before God, no idolatry whether it be stone or wood, don't take His name in vain, and false teach and the most important ,to keep His Sabbath Holy and honored which is Saturday , sabbath begin Friday at sundown until Saturday at sun down , Sunday is the pagan day of worship , the sun God , and Sunday is the first day of the week , not the seventh , representing completion , teach the children as parents , until the age of accountability at age 12 , as Christ , i dont agree that the state purchase bibles , its the patents , and to take their place
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
so brainwash children at home, continue doing it in school even if the child isn't yours or isn't kkkris chn, ignore the beliefs of other children and their families, use public money to further YOUR own specific beliefs, call all other religions false.
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Teresa Freeman
Teach them when they are young and when they are older they will not depart , it's up to the leader of the home to instill God and His love for all His children and to teach that God is the only true God , post the ten commandments at school , say the pledge of allegiance and orate a prayer that God's will be done , the Bible is our sword and confirmation that we are Gods family , all the way to Seth , Satan is the author of confusion , shouldn't be multiple religions and wouldn't be if we followed the Law of God, put no other God before God, no idolatry whether it be stone or wood, don't take His name in vain, and false teach and the most important ,to keep His Sabbath Holy and honored which is Saturday , sabbath begin Friday at sundown until Saturday at sun down , Sunday is the pagan day of worship , the sun God , and Sunday is the first day of the week , not the seventh , representing completion , teach the children as parents , until the age of accountability at age 12 , as Christ , i dont agree that the state purchase bibles , its the patents , and to take their place
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Tecla Caryl Loup
Didn't work for me.
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Kenneth Kling
If they're putting all the other crap in the schools, why not a Bible too. Call it a history book and put it in the library. I would imagine that most of the kids who are practicing Christians already know where the best E-version is on the Web.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
if by crap you mean math books, history books, science books, social studies books, they are still far better than your bibble
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MAmatthews
Personally I believe in the separation of religion and state and as such would support copies of the Bible available in the school libraries but not in the classroom. Back when I was in school we stood up and we did the pledge of allegiance including the line one nation under God. All kids had the option to not say the word God.but we didn't have Bibles
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Tecla Caryl Loup
I recall when that "under God" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance. I'm still annoyed by it--threw off my recitation rhythm. But the faculty at my parochial school were thrilled to the bone.
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Janet Marie Moland
next up, all athletes will be required to wear gold high tops!
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
signed ones? that would be special.
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William Christian Theile III
As for me every school should have a bible in their libraries, not individual! Nobody has the right to push their religion onto others!
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P. Keith Benefiel
Combining religion and government compromises both so neither are effective.
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William Morehead
America has always been about equality. If there are any religious texts in schools. Then the Bible should be among them. If the Koran is allowed then too should the Holy Bible be allowed. The Bible is also a very accurate historical, archaeological, and humanitarian document. It's Christians that people have a problem with mostly. I say this as someone who could be identified as Christian. It has nothing to do with a book that 90% of those against its public availability have never read. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. If it's any comfort, to all those who have been hurt by Christians. Please remember that they need forgiveness too. None of us know how to do right by each other all the time. Christians need twice the grace because we are also wrestling with how to be different AND how to do right by others while we wage war on ourselves.It's a confusing and painful process and it often bleeds over into our relationships with others who have not made the same choices as us and they do not deserve our fallout as we learn to die to self and live for Christ.
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Rev. Rory
The Bible is an important book. There should be a few in the school library for students to check out if desired, NOT in every classroom. In addition, other books should not be banned. Remind us, who gets to choose the version? I would expect books from the 12 or so main global religions to also be in the library, not just one version of the bible as approved by some guy in Oklahoma. Maybe he should leave public education and become a preacher! He could welcome students to his religious training classes. There are places of worship all over this country plus online. A parent should choose if they wish their children to attend religious training: if, when and where.
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DAG of Hamburg
Interesting that even here on this site, you can order a “Holy Bible KJV Collector's Edition” for $25. Oklahoma wants taxpayers to foot the bill for $125 “bibles”? 🙄
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William Morehead
Can you imagine a child trying to read a KJV bible? If we are going to put a book in a library. I think it should 1. at least be in modern english. 2. have a quality reader friendly experience. Books are meant to be available if someone has a desire to learn from them. This doesn't have to be a religious issue. As a country that values education. Simply providing quality materials to learn from if one wants to. Is something, i think, we could be proud of.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
There's been push back in OK to the extent that walters has re-written the RFP (Request For Proposal). It keeps the original requirements but allows for the additional documents to be under separate cover. However, the RFP still requires those additional secular be bound in leather for durability; the catch is that for a printer to do that would make that additional requirement prohibitively expensive and so once again, the donalph trumpler bibble is the ONLY one that meets the state's requirements and be low bidder. It is suggested that walters' intent is simply to funnel $3 million to trumpler (possible as a quid pro quo for consideration in a cabinet position (education?))
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CraigB
As someone who lives in Oklahoma let me put this 6 million into perspective.
1) The only Bible that completely meets the requirements is the Chineese made Trump God Bless America Bible. 2) This state has turned down subsidized school meal programs 3) The state department of education has been withholding security dollars from schools. Took a lawsuit for them to release them. 4) The state department of education has been withholding medications from schools. It seems that now than an investication from the Attorney Generals office, they might finally release them.True Christians here...
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Christine Gladhill
The other disgusting part about this entire Bible debacle in Oklahoma is the fact that the way they defined appropriate Bibles pretty much made it a guarantee that they were going to be buying Trump's perverted Bible that has government documents included in it. Apparently the backlash has been pretty great on that so they're backing off a little but yeah it's another Trump scam
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Peter David Ainsworth II
And Jesus said, a new commandment I give to you; LOVE thy neighbor as yourself, for in so doing you fulfill all the commandments. He never said FORCE everyone to follow him. Preach the word and he who has ears, let him hear. Forcing ONE religion on everyone to keep them powerless and under control was NEVER the intention; Love was.
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Wayne M. Delia
The OK Board of Education requirements specify certain criteria that must be met, such as historical documents like the US Constitution must be included, an obvious wink-wink to the expensive Trump Bibles available for sale. Ironically, the US Constitution contains the First Amendment, which not only enables people to break each of the first four among the Ten Commandments, it also prohibits state and federal governments from enacting or enforcing laws requiring that those commandments be obeyed. In other words, the specified Bible must include a document that renders four of the most important commandments (at best) optional.
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Patricia Sydney Solis
Adolf Hitler was a Christian Nationalist. The collective unconscious is easy to manipulate and the church and state know it. False profit $$$ is the motive. Let what is Caesar’s be Caesar’s and what is God’s be God’s.
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Joseph Connor Smith
I believe that requiring the Bible in schools is bad enough, but seeing as virtually the only version being allowed is the Bibles that Trump was trying to sell is even worse. I find it awfully strange, and somewhat infuriating that the Oklahoma Board of Education is not only trying to use their influence to push a Christian document into school, but very specifically a version of which is being sold in the name of and for a former president. The bias here is almost laughably obvious.
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Tecla Caryl Loup
Just another grift. C'mon, give the guy a break (snort)! He has got to be in way over his head financially. Again or still.
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Steven Ferrell
If they can use taxpayers dollars to have books in classroom promoting sin, then they should also have a book that speaks against sin.
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Robin Anne Hannon
The reason there was a provision for a separation of church and state to begin with was due to the Church of England at the time. There was a Theocracy, not a democracy. Many were persecuted, or worse. When the founding fathers came to these shores, they were fleeing the tyranny, and the abuse of power that had been imposed in what was a Theocracy in England. To open these doors again is to court all sorts of issues with religious oversight, persecution, or forced conversions. That is number one. Number two, not everyone in this country is Christian. If people want bibles, have them at home. Whatever your faith is, you should be free to practice it, but not in a public school. There are many versions of private schools, even home schooling allowed where this is more the parent's choice.
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Christine Gladhill
Whose definition of sin should we use? Bibles have no place in the classroom unless you are specifically a religious school. Public schools that are funded by all of us need to be neutral.
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Rev. Rory
Sin...in your opinion based on your religion. Bible in the library, yes. Bible in every classroom, no.
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Dorothy Hawkins
Opinion. The idea of "God" predates any formal religion. "God" is bigger than anyone's religion. This is one country where people are supposed to be free to worship "God" in their own way - - or NOT.
Pushing one religious idea over all the others simply reflects our own inadequacy in our understanding of "God". It's WHY the founders of this country put separation of church and state into our first official policies.
I choose to believe Pope Francis is right: all paths lead to "God". Believe in SOMETHING bigger than your own little self - whether or not it's "God" - that's up to you to choose.
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Donald Michael Woodward
Everything is on the internet, including the bible. There is no need for a paper copy of a bible for every student, when the instructor could easily provide the lesson on a pdf file to view on a phone or computer.
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Jamie Frost
If they want religion THAT badly in schools.... Why dont they set the bigger schools up with Theology as an elective?? Solves all the problems... Bigots get their religion put into schools and kids don't get it unwillingly forced down their throats.......
. And hell...
They can be all inclusive for other students and include other religions 😱😱
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Ari Joseph Bertine
This is so sketchy and inappropriate, and 100% unconstitutional. Everyone knows that this "historical relevance" is a ******** excuse, and it is such a thin one that it barely even pretends. The truth of the matter is that the officials who decided to enact this are promoting their own favorite religion as part of children's education so that they can indoctrinate them early. They are dishonest, power-hungry, and horribly unethical through and through. Shame on all of them and on anyone who supports this move. It's disgustingly un-American.
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Jay Wolf
Grift at the highest level. Since when has any Bible contained or required to contain the declaration of independence, etc.
This does many things wrong. No separation of church and state, and then to funnel money to a liar, adjudacted sexual predator, insurrectionist, swindler and convicted felon because he has Bible that contains extra items that have nothing to do with religion.
By saying the schools must buy this sham of a book and it is mandatory in schools, deniies the religious rights of every religion outside of Christianity.
This feels like the missionaries that forced Christianity upon all cultures outside Europe when first exploring the world of the unknown.
Religious beliefs are once more being politicized.
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Rev. BH
"Joey, put down that bible and read chapter 3 in your math book with the rest of us!"
"No way! The Bible's more important. It's from God!"
"Ok, you can read it after school in detention. And see if you can pray away this F I'm giving you in math."
"Uh, waitaminit ..."
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Michael Howard Schrader
Apparently, there is one, and only one Bible that meets the state specs for KJV, Old Testament and New Testament, with Declaration of Independence, U.S. Constitution, and other U.S. historical documents, and a leather cover - the Trump Bible, at a cool $60.00 each, with proceeds going to Trump. Walters is ultra-MAGA. Yet another grift by Trump and his allies.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
Update: ryan walters, the education supervisor that is pushing for bibbles in all classrooms in OK has written up a "Request for Proposal" for companies to bid on supplying the bibles. The one that meets the requirements and lowest bid will win the contract. But.....
It appears there are ONLY two bibble versions that meet his listed requirements (this after about 2300 different versions were checked); one is the trumpler bibble and the other is a bibble endorsed by trumpler (essentially the same thing)
Another provision of the contract stipulates that the bibbles have to be shipped within 2 weeks of the signed contract. Any guesses who might be sitting on 43, 000 already printed bibbles?
The price for the trumpler bibble wasn't disclosed in the article I read but I'm sure it's out there.
So not only is OK spending money better spent on raising their education ranking up from #49 but they (the education supervisor ryan walters) are essentially sending donolph trumpler a handful of money by having written the bid that only the trumpler bibble can meet
who say kkkrs chns aren't honest and above board
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Robert Hauck, MD, FAAP
Yet another assault on the separation of religion and government, an essential requirement for the survival of a democracy.
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Russel A. Kester
The logic of your statement alludes me. What does the separation of church and state or lack thereof have to do with democracy?
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
dear mr. disingenuous; of course you know what separation of church and state has to do with democracy, don't be coy. if there is NO separation between church and state, in other words, if the church keeps intruding into the public sphere, e.g. making public schools religious, making government religious, i.e. a theocracy evolves, then by definition a theocracy is not a democracy, it's a government governed by the church, by religious precepts rather than by the will of the people.
but you knew that
but I bet you lean towards the theocratic than the democratic...amirite?
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Russel A. Kester
JJ, first I must give you credit for creative salutations! LOL. History seems to prove you wrong as there have been many societies wherein the church and government were so intertwined as to be indistinguishable. But you specifically referred to democracies, and so, I call your attention to ancient Greece which during its height was both a democracy and theocracy combined. The earliest colonies in the US were also ruled by both. And finally, Great Britain is a democracy and the Church of England is the official religion of the land. I'm sure if you look into the history of other countries you might find the same. Like Rome for example before it came to be ruled by powerful men and families. Of course no less a person than former President Jimmy Carter has stated that the US is not a democracy. It's a republic which is now ruled by an oligarchy. And I've heard other smart people make the same statements. So, a society can be a democracy without the separation of church and state. It's been done. Sadly, either with or without such a separation, the US no longer seems to be a true democracy.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
and yet what the kkkristofascists in the US want IS to make this country a theocracy.
google the two billionaires in texas who have admitted their goal to make texas a theocracy, and then the US. there are a LOT of kkkristofascists that are pushing for a theocracy.
we are a democracy at the local and state level and a representative democracy at the national level, so we are at once a democracy and a republic.
the US was NEVER a true democracy and it's always been a representative democracy/republic.
as for oligarchy, hasn't it always been so? didn't the railroad barons have considerable pull in the government? what about other leaders of industry?
the difference today is that of late, they are coming out of the woodwork, no longer working behind the scenes but out in public. see the koch brothers, thiel and as of this weekend, elon musk. the push is on now to see which happens first (or maybe hand in hand); a technological monarchy or a theocracy.
for me I prefer the system you seem to abhor and I abhor the system(s) you seem to favor. why else would you want to keep women down?
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Russel A. Kester
Wow, JJ, you were making some interesting points but just had to end it by once again talking about women which wasn't even part of this thread.
Anyway, if there are billionaires on the conservative side of this topic, there are far more on the side of the far left. Per Google AI:
"As of 2024, there are 813 billionaires in the United States, making it the country with the most billionaires in the world. The combined wealth of these billionaires is $5.7 trillion."
So you mentioned just two billionaires out of 813 billionaires. Not quite the impact one might have thought.
And where did you ever see that I've written to keep women down, whatever you think that means? I have advocated for a portion of our society that has been forgotten by the left and even many on the right. I encourage people to set aside what they think they know and look at facts and solid statistics. It seems that some people think that advocating FOR boys is equal to advocating AGAINST girls. It's not.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
nice but pointless research.
the point is that two billionaires are spending large amounts of their own money to push the kkkristofascist agenda in the state of texas with the goal to turn texas into a theocracy. not sure how you missed that part, which was the point of the reference, not how many billionaires there are.
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Russel A. Kester
The point was that the left has many more than two billionaires pouring money into state and local politics in the other states and probably in Texas too. Surely an inconvenience truth for your narrative.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
No. The point was these billionaires are spending money to make the state of texas a theocracy.
Not sure how or why you don't or can't understand that.
Your point seems to be to address a point I didn't make
Surely an inconvenie[nt] truth for your 'narrative'
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Theresa C. Marquess
When I was a kid in school, there was a Bible on the desk of every teacher, but there have been so many changes in the law since that time, with prayer in schools being eliminated. Why not just place one bible into the library of each school and save millions?
It makes me wonder who will be lining his/her pockets with cash acquired in the transaction of purchasing these bibles. There is always someone with a sinister alternative.
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arawngraalrd
At U$145@, I'd expect them to be signed by Trump, on behalf of George Washington, but I'd prefer they accept donations. The First Amendment, should they think to include The Constitution Of The United States Of America, constrains Congress, bot Oklahoma has its own constraints. The Bible, and many other classic historical influences, do belong in School, but Public Education does not, nor does the Prussian Industrial Model.
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Robin Anne Hannon
Ok so basically shoving religion down children's throats in a public school and wasting money that could be better spent on education. This is not a Theocracy, it is a Democracy. Makes me so angry!
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Rebecca L Tice
Nature hates a vacuum. Making the books available doesn't mean the children will be forced to be Christian or Muslim or whatever floats the boat you're so angry about.
Have Faith.... God is behind this... Have Faith.
I am more upset about having to put up metal detectors and posting armed guards at the doors to keep our children safe from shooters.
Have Faith... it's a Good Book for crying out loud!!
Thanks for letting me join in....
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
here's a funny thought: those guns you're worried about, almost always come from home. think about that, it's not outsiders coming into schools, it's almost always a classmate and that gun is either borrowed or was a gift.
as for your comment, "Have Faith.... God is behind this... Have Faith." explain again how that works in keeping kids with guns out of the classroom? or is your goD a gun enthusiast nowadays?
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David Arthur Lewis
Voting Matters.
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Merlin
oKay with me if they also distribute sacred writings of every “religion”. It will cost a lot more than $6 million.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
Oklahoma ranked #49 in US for education
$6 million dollars for bibles divided by 41,323 teachers equals $145 per bible...instead of lunches or school supplies
2010 OK law allows bible to be taught as an elective, it "also requires that the class maintain religious neutrality, accommodate other religious perspectives of students and not promote or disfavor a particular religion or lack of religious belief or run afoul of state and federal constitutions. That last part is a requirement for the law to be valid, as Oklahoma’s constitution explicitly prohibits taxpayer money and resources from being spent for religious purposes or instruction."
The OK's superintendent of schools is willfully violating OK state law and, more importantly, OK state constitution because...goD
OK is being used as a testing ground by kkkristofascist nationalist far right goppers to advance their agenda of turning the US into a kkkristofascist theocracy
See recent article (NYT) about two texas billionaires who are working on making texas a theocracy...first.
Given the rise of donalph trumpler and the kkkristofascist rise and their contamination of the Supreme Court we will see more and more of these attempts to inculcate children (first) into kkkristinsanity and then nationwide/federally starting first by declaring the US a kkkris chn nation and then making it a naitonal religion.
[It usually takes anywhere from a few hours to a couple of days before my views are either approved or censured]
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CB Cuff
You make good points. Additionally, honest tax payers in Oklahoma should not be punished for rejecting this absurd suggestion. Ryan Walters needs to sit out a permanent detention.
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Nicholas J Page
Wouldnt the money be better used for other purposes like improving schools and /teachers?.
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Russel A. Kester
Using the money for actual teachers instead of woke ideologes might be a better use, I'll give you that. But since such a praiseworthy use doesn't seem feasible at this time, the Bibles will have to suffice.
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Michael Hunt
Just say "liberal" instead of "woke" because that's what you really mean. Otherwise you're just using "woke" as a catch all for things you dislike instead of the original definition of, "aware of and actively attentive to important facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice)."
Everyone should want to be woke by the original definition.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
Michael, 'woke' is the new 'libtard' for regressives.
Also the way they use the word 'progressive' clearly implies their belief in not moving forward but wanting to return to the past (white, kkkrs chn, slavery, women as chattel etc), so the fair way to refer to those people is 'regressives'. makes it easier for stupid folk to understand the primary differences between the two political parties.
One is progressive, moving forward and working to make the world a better place for all.
One is regressive, moving backwards and working to keep the world a place they don't have to share with anyone not like them and allows them to keep power to themselves
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Russel A. Kester
Michael, I disagree. As with so many words in the English language, the word 'woke' has several meanings, and I am intentionally using it to refer to those over-the-top, wacky, and insane progressive people who espouse nonsensical, irrational social justice warrior rhetoric. The term 'liberal' means something entirely different.
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Tecla Caryl Loup
This "woke" crap really pisses me off. It's not being used as a real word. Sounds ignorant. My Dominican teachers are no doubt rolling in their graves. Why don't you use real English to describe whatever it is that you mean by the W-word?
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Jimmy Moon
Great start. Let's put Bibles in all schools and let American youths here GOD's WORD every day. GOD is getting ready to judge America. We must turn to HIM and REPENT. JESUS is the ONLY WAY TO HEAVEN.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
not true, not true AT ALL
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Lionheart
I think you’ll find, Sir James, that the Bible was written by men, some of which didn’t know where the Sun went at night. I don’t remember any particular God ever having written anything in it.
I’m sure they were full of ego insisting their writings were from a god, but that’s what mankind loves doing….right? Joseph Smith was like that, plus many others of other religions.
🦁❤️
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Reverend Paula Copp
Oh, Jimmy! Even the pope recently said that all religions lead to god? Who are you to argue with the pope?
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David Hinckley
Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy. When people hear and see things that don't actually exist, it can be diagnosed as schizophrenia, and is treatable. Seek help.
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Bond Wright
Those are your myths and you should keep them in your church and your home. Observe the Constitution. And, while you re at it--learn to spell before you go public --with your message with all due respect.
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Tecla Caryl Loup
God has many words in many languages. Don't forget--the Bible, not by any means a real book until the Council of Nicaea around 400 AD (or CE), was a compendium of orthodox Christian beliefs at the time--that is, the guys with the power (emphases on "guys" and " power"). I am well aware of this because my patron saint's acts (St. Thecla, Romanized spelling) were canned as a more or less fairy story. My guess is that she demonstrated too much non-passive activity for the power brokers of the time. She is included in the Apocrypha as the "Acts of Paul & Thecla" for those who enjoy reading stories about possibly proactive females in the olden days.
I must confess that I first read her story in school, but complete disclosure: it was a parochial school when those who desired that their children receive a good Catholic education and made sacrifices to send their kids there scratched up the tuition, none of this government "rebate" nonsense.
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taycomama
Even if I were a Christian, I would consider the price of these bibles outrageous. If they must buy bibles, why not from a source that provides Gideon bibles to hotels or some other low price seller. The Constitution and et ceteras can be added as a separate booklet for a couple of dollars each. Somehow this scheme sounds like a way to put another few million dollars in Trump's pocket. Will he be signing them?
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Michael Howard Schrader
That is because it is. The only bible that meets the specs is the Trump Bible.
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Tecla Caryl Loup
Haha, not for only $149!!! Snort.
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# Jesusislove?
If you are going to allow bibles into.a classroom then you must allow other religions to have their books of faith as well. Plus religious beliefs should start at home and taught there.
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Russel A. Kester
There is nothing dictating that other religious books must or even should be placed in the classroom; they shouldn't. Not all cultures or faiths are equal. A reasonable person studying history can quickly discern which have promoted better societies and which have not. Christianity has done better than the others as seen by the fact that most of the world's population wants to live in Western societies which developed under the Christian faith.
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Rev. BH
OMG! "Not all cultures or faiths are equal." Please apprise us of the inferior cultures and faiths, Russ.
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Russel A. Kester
BH, the terms inferior and superior are not terms I would use even as I acknowledge that not all cultures and faiths are equal. As I referenced, some cultures and faiths have proven themselves more effective in creating better societies for people to live their lives. The West under Christianity has done so. The Middle East under Islam had its high point too though as practiced today it has become a tool of the most radical and destructive elements in the Middle East. The paganism practiced in Ancient Greece, particularly Athens, brought that society to a very high mark in art and culture. Rome did much the same. Buddhism did some amazing things in India and later in Tibet, Thailand, and even China and Japan. I haven't heard of any great cultural achievements from the Bushmen of Australia and similar places around the globe. But by all means, anyone living in the West is welcome to go live in these other places. But they don't. Instead people living there want to come here. They are literally telling us with their feet that we are very privileged to live in the West with our culture, our religious history, and our sciences; they are telling us that we have the better society.
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Michael Hunt
Your assertion that, "not all cultures or faiths are equal" implies that there are superior and inferior cultures or faiths. It's antithetical to try and claim both statements as true.
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Russel A. Kester
As I wrote, I would not use the terms "superior" and "inferior" as those terms would be relative to the speaker. I consider American culture as superior while an Imam in Iran would think Iranian culture superior. Therefore, those terms are unhelpful even as one acknowledges that the two country's cultures are not equal, they are not the same.
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Michael Hunt
Right, and you've been asked what cultures are "superior" and "inferior" to you. As in your perspective. And you've just said that you believe American culture to be superior. You're using semantics to try and dodge the question posed to you.
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Russel A. Kester
I am not using words which are relative and therefore unhelpful. I am encouraging that we look at the outcomes of various cultures or religions and determine if they are contributing to good lives for their citizens or believers. I'm focusing on results not words and those cultures which have the best results for its people are the ones we should choose. The differences in results in the lives of real people shows that they are not equal. BH didn't ask me which are superior, but asked which are inferior. The reason for the emphasis was clear, but the terms were BH's not mine. Let BH answer the question for the terms used.
In my initial post I referred to history as a guide to which cultures produced better societies for people's lives and have been consistent in that framing. BH tried to reframe my thoughts with terms I didn't use. I reject the reframing. Now you and BH can tell us which cultures you think have produced societies wherein people want to live and which have not to stay true to my original comment.
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Rev. BH
Hey RAK, thanks for mentioning me five times! I'm honored!. Now: " BH didn't ask me which are superior, but asked which are inferior." OK, let's phrase it your way - which cultures and religions are superior. Remember, Christianity is not one religion, but an umbrella term for many - give me specifics. answers.
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Russel A. Kester
BH, yes, I referred to you by name five times. See how important you are? LOL. I don't know your sex, so I didn't use personal pronouns. Actually, I've already answered your questions. I wrote that the West under Christianity has provided good societies where people want to live. I also wrote that the Middle East had its heyday as did ancient Greece and Rome. Each of my examples came from different times, places, and practiced different religions. I've also written that people are not running to live as Bushmen in Australia. But neither you nor Michael have answered any of the questions you've posted or that I asked. Tsk, tsk.
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Rev. BH
Michael, I, and others are not required to answer questions we are asking you, such as (once again): which branch of Christianity are you referring to as superior? Here's a list for you to recommend one from. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_by_number_of_members
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Russel A. Kester
Ha! Not required to answer questions your asking? Nonsense. The simple truth is that you cannot answer them. And now you want to move the conversation to which 'brand' of Christianity is best? Nice try. But when am article comes along that promotes this topic, I look forward to the conversation..
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Michael Hunt
So, to be clear, you won't answer the questions we have asked of you first until we answer the same questions. Is that correct?
Personally, I don't view any culture as inferior or superior to another because each has its flaws and benefits. There are people just as happy to live in China or Kenya as those in America. It's all relative to the needs and desires of the particular person.
Now that you have my answer, will you finally answer the questions posed to you?
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Rev. BH
Comment removed by user.
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Rev. BH
What questions would you like us to answer for you? Your word salad is generally confusing (and apparently meant to be so). Can you occasionally post in a few short, clear and simple sentences we all might understand?
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David Hinckley
"There is nothing dictating that other religious books must or even should be placed in the classroom, they shouldn't." Why is it ok to force your religious beliefs on everyone? You would have been a good member of the Spanish forces that devastated the indigenous people who were here when America was "discovered".
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Tecla Caryl Loup
Ah, the motivation for Western culture aspirants is about the money and comforts of this world, not the spiritual ideals. I have no problem with that, but to pretend that we are exceptional and superior to everyone else who is not part of Western culture's current heyday is damfoolishness.
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Robert Gagnon
It has no place in public schools, even if donated. Seems pretty expensive, is it the Trump version?
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Rev. BH
I believe I just read that somewhere. More money for Trump from gullible fools.
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James Riggle-Johnson
The tRump version includes the Constitution and Declaration of Independence. I’m sure it’s just a coincidence that Walters wants those included. Lol!
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Robert Gagnon
Just found out Trump bible printed in China for 3.00 each, pretty good mark up. Some say missing some of the constitution, so it is not a complete teaching tool.
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Lionheart
Books containing horror, murder, human sacrifices, child killings, religious blackmailing, and genocidal drownings, should not be for children’s eyes. Just saying!
🦁❤️
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Rev. BH
Or school lunches for poor kids.
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Reverend Paula Copp
The money would be much better spent in salaries for the front line educators! Public schools should NOT have bibles!
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James Riggle-Johnson
Now that makes perfect since.
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Colleen McAllister
This is simply wrong and unconstitutional. The Bible does not belong in public classrooms. I say this as a Bible-believing, Born-again Evangelical Christian.
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John P Maher
BRAVO ! WELL SAID SAID SAID SAID ECHO !
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Rebecca L Tice
I say, Good for them!!!
Not too long ago, the Bible was the way most people [children and adults] learned to read. There are cool stories in the Bible... like the one about the Left Handed Swordsman.
I just hope they give them NIV or American Standard instead of that staugy KJV...lol
Good for them... a Good Book!
Becky
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
are you willing to include the qur'an, vedas, torah as well as books that describe and teach buddhism, tao, paganism et al.?
or is it just your kkkris chn bibble you want to force all children to be exposed to?
curious to know your answer and your reason(s)
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Reverend Paula Copp
Very good questions… Bravo!
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Rebecca L Tice
Well, if children want to read those instead, why not?
It would be better for us to consider how well the children might digest the stories.
Like I said... I love the story of the talking mule. I love the left handed swordsman.
Maybe children will read the stories and then read the other books... Jesus said, if their not against us they are for us.
Let the children learn. Pray that the Spirit will guide them. Have faith in God.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
are you suggesting that for children the bibble is fine but other sources, maybe for older kids?
because I did not read a ringing endorsement on your part for providing other texts besides the bibbel for the children.
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Rebecca L Tice
I haven't read some of the stuff a preacher reads. I did read 1 Corinthians 3:2 that says you give milk, not solid food, to infants.
I'm not so sure I would want the former presidents name on the bible... supporting his political campaign... but I am not against children learning.
I Believe reading the Bible will bring them the "Spirit" and that "Spirit" will help them properly digest the other books.
There is only one true living God.
Better?
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
You're entitled to your opinion but you're not entitled to force it onto other's children. You need to show a bit of respect.
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Rebecca L Tice
And neither are you by withholding the Bible. On top of being Inspired by God... it's better than Moby Dick by far!!!
It's great reading.... 1 Samuel 19 is all about how a king got naked!
Why are you so adament? Are we in "end times"?
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Bond Wright
I do not want American hard earned tax dollars used to force the christian religion or ANY religion down children's throats. It belongs in the church--whatever church you have and in the home. Did you ever, Rebecca, hear of the US Constitution? It happens to be the law of this land. If you insist on forcing your religion down the throats of innocent children, I say you should leave America and go live where that is the law of the land. Have the integrity to create a way for yourself to teach YOUR beliefs to YOUR children. Observe our Constitution: separation of Church and state. Get it?! And, I have, and will always, work to observe the law of this beautiful country. Rev. Bond Wright
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Lion on the Beach
As in Florida the Gideons assisted in non-public schools who wished to have Bibles in classrooms. This would not be a problem for public schools in that state. It's spelled Bible in case your auto correct is OCC..
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
Will there be any money left to fund real education one the state has paid for copies of every religion's holy book to be place in every classroom? The current plan to promote christian over other religions is totally unconstitutional.
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Russel A. Kester
The Koran, and Vedas do not have any historicity in Western culture. The Bible does. The Torah is the Old Testament of the Bible as it too has had a major influence on our history. Neither has Buddhism, Taoism, or any pagan belief system other than those of ancient Greece and Rome which were taught to me in school and should be today as well. The left wants to push any culture other than our own Western culture. Well, I and many others appreciate our own culture and want it taught to future generations.
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Michael Howard Schrader
You do realize algebra and our numerals were introduced by the Caliphates during the Middle Ages, right? Right?
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Russel A. Kester
That has nothing to do with my comment. But to your comment per Google AI, "Algebra was not discovered by a single person, but rather developed gradually over time, with the earliest recognizable algebraic concepts appearing in ancient Babylonia, where they used clay tablets to solve equations, including quadratic and cubic ones, through a system of rhetorical algebra, considered more advanced than the linear equations used by the Egyptians at the time; the "Plimpton 322" tablet is a famous example of this early Babylonian algebra." Ancient societies shared much with one another. Now how much of the things we think, do, or use were created by Western Society including the scientific methods we still rely on? You wish to deminish the achievements of Western society whereas I wish to praise them.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
don't be disingenuous, meester keester, you know very well what the purpose of the bibble is. it's to force kkkristinsanity into first, schools, then local government, then state and federal. you know this so you argument, were this simply a case of supplementing history lessons then perhaps, but like I said, you know better and so do I.
your comment about the left is b.s., it's the regressive right that wants to eliminate discussion of slavery as an evil, that freaks out at the mention of critical race theory and for more than a few of your regressive white supremacists there is a move of late to claim that the holocaust was an 'accident' and rewriting who and what hitler was. the left is willing to accept history as it is.
and what silly nonsense are you claiming about the left pushing culture other than our own? once again close-minded people on the regressive right seek any purchase, will tell any lie in the hopes of convincing enough people of their lies.
and finally, educationally who cares about the influence of the bibble on the early colonies. funny how some are mad desperate to push the bibble as having been influential and should be taught and yet the same ones want to disown and deny slavery and the effects IT has had on america and black americans.
your arguments are heavily biased, aged, white and kkkrstofascist and find an inclusive country anathema
when you were in school I'm guessing it was probably very white; people of color were still widely discriminated against in all aspects of life, the woman's place was in the home (barefoot and pregnant) and the biggest issue in most of (what is now red) america was the red scare/communists and how to decrease the influence of the cathaholic church
I could be off but most likely not by a lot
[subject, as always to potential censorship]
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Russel A. Kester
JJ, you covered a lot of ground in your comment. I will make a preliminary remark and then spend time on one of your topics. In my remarks I referenced culture not race. But your comment did try to reframe the discussion in terms of race. You then built the CRT strawman argument in hopes it could be used to discredit my comments. I don't accept your reframing of my comments as I commented in terms of the historicity of various religious writings and cultures.
Your comment that people on the right don't discuss slavery is simply wrong. People on the right do discuss slavery. Unlike those on the far left who wish to discuss only a small historical period of slavery and then only in the US, people on the right discuss the topic much more broadly and honestly. They discuss it as a phenomenan which has been an unfortunate reality for over 3,000 years and happened on every continent on Earth. That is a perspective the left eschews because it doesn't fit its colonial oppressor narrative. It is the progressive woke crowd that will not have an honest discussion. The right also acknowledges the Irish who were sold by the British as slaves to the Americas, Caribbean sugar plantations, North Africa, and the Middle East. Many, many millions of Irish. The right also acknowledges the many Europeans captured by pirates and sold into slavery to owners in Tunis, Algiers and Tripoli which was estimated to be between 1,000,000 to 1,250,000 persons. If one writes about slavery, then discuss the entire topic not just the perverted version of wokeism.
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Michael Hunt
The people on the right want to whitewash our history of slavery by painting it as not-that-bad-because-everyone-was-doing-it. However the United States was unique to much of the world with their use of chattel slavery where the children of slaves became the property of the slaves' owners. We should be reckoning with our awful history of slavery instead of trying to assuage our guilt without actually taking any time to acknowledge the modern day issues and inequalities that are a direct result of our time as slavers in this country.
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Russel A. Kester
Michael, your comment is so very wrong. The children of slaves were the property of master since ancient times and Islam which was practicing slavery at the same time in the Middle East as was done here and other nations as well allowed it. I checked with Google AI and here is what it found, "Islamic law permitted slavery in two circumstances: birth into slavery or capture in war. The children of enslaved people were considered slaves and the property of their masters."
The understanding of slavery as presented in your comment is abysmal. But that is surely because you wanted to make the case for the woke idea of DEI and reparations as reflected in the last lines of your comment. Your perspective is ideologically driven not factually. Sad.
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Michael Hunt
I never said there wasn't other countries that practiced chattel slavery, I said we need to stop acting like just because everyone did it, it wasn't that bad. It's an awful blemish on our history and we can't just pretend that it's over and therefore everything is good and fine.
Your understanding of slavery is spotty at best, it appears, because the lasting impacts of slavery are still very much felt today in this country. We have people who spend their lives studying this for us so we can all have a better awareness of our society. You can choose to listen or be thickheaded. https://nexus.jefferson.edu/health/what-is-the-residual-impact-of-slavery-on-african-american-mental-health/
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Russel A. Kester
Michael, again you wish to narrow the focus to only one group during one historical period in order to paint Black Americans alive today as victims. That dog don't hunt. America has been about people's rising from nothing to comfortable lives by working hard and being wise. Japanese Americans were stripped of everything but are doing well today, and it didn't take them hundreds of years. My former housemate came here from Nigeria and now owns a home and is building towards retirement. The problem with the phrase 'lasting impacts' is that it's meaningless. It has no time frame to it. How long would be long enough? A year, a century, a millennium? It's indeterminate. Read Thomas Sowell's books or even watch his videos on YouTube. He uses actual statistics and facts that show your position is not sound..
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James Riggle-Johnson
Kester, that’s not fair. My school lessons regarding slavery were not limited to only that which occurred in America. We went through everything dating back to before Christ. What they did not teach was a revisionist version of Rosa Parks “which was consider in Florida” stating that she was supposed to sit in the back of the bus, but she was very brave and said no. It doesn’t go into punishment. It also did not describe that at least slaves learned valuable skills to use after they were freed.
I also believe we can teach what part Christianity played in the early part of America’s founding without using the bible. We don’t need to incorporated bible verses or parables into the education. We should also teach how other religions throughout the world influenced both the US and other countries, without bring those books into the classroom. This used to already be part of public education. I’ll admit it’s been a while since I’ve been in a classroom, so I don’t know what they teach today.
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Russel A. Kester
James, I too was taught the things you mentioned when I went to school. But what we were taught (assuming your somewhere near my age) and what's taught today as well as how they're taught seem to be very different indeed.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Until someone shows me evidence of these sinister lesson plans, I’m willing to give the benefit of doubt. Let me explain why. The book bans that are taking place across the country are out of hand. Why are parents so outraged about a cartoon book depicting two male penguins raising a chick together? It doesn’t say that one of the male penguins gave birth to the chick or that they’re gay. Why in the world are The Color Purple and The Diary of Anne Frank on those lists.
And now Ryan Walters wants schoolteachers to incorporate the bible into their lesson plans. Why do they need to read the bible to understand it’s religious significance in US or World History. Teaching children that the Christian faith was founded on the life and death of Jesus Christ, hence Christians. We don’t need scripture to reinforce that understanding. We don’t need the texts of any other religious book to understand where it came from and how it shaped that society.
I don’t see the need to place a bible in every classroom unless the spend money on putting the religious texts of all religions in the same classroom. Ryan Walters doesn’t seem to be interested in that which makes me suspicious of his motivation.
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Bond Wright
THANK YOU, REV. DR. JJ! Rev. Bond Wright
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Rev. BH
"The Koran, and Vedas do not have any historicity in Western culture." (RAK) Neither does the bible. It originated in the Near East, as I'm sure you recall.
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Russel A. Kester
BH, I'm not sure you're making the point you intend to make. My statement was that the Bible, and thus Christianity, had great influence on the development of Western culture. You seem to deny my claim and dismissing it because it has it historical roots in ancient Israel. But that perspective fails to understand the great importance Greek thought had in forming the New Testament and therefrom the birth of Christianity, making Christianity, especially as later developed in Rome, very much a Western intellectual and spiritual product. As another minister here has mentioned in another comment elsewhere, some Roman holidays were incorporated into the Christian faith. Even the church structure in both architecture and liturgy were heavily influenced by Rome. So, the Bible is very much a product of the West as is Christianity even as it traces its roots to ancient Israel. And the influence of Christianity on the West is undeniable.
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Tecla Caryl Loup
So how about including the Jefferson Bible in classrooms instead?? It's significantly shorter than the KJV and would be much cheaper. In fact, it's available in the ULC bookstore for only $12.99, a helluva lot cheaper than the $149 cost mentioned here--a more than 90% discount.
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Echo
6 million in salary to teachers would have better results then force feeding religion to students.
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Dan Anderson
I pity the Muslim, Jewish, and those of other religions and atheist students. They should not have to put up with this nonsense.
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Clay Serenbetz
This is a presumptions and ineffective expenditure of education dollars. I personally and sincerely doubt that the presence of a Bible in a classroom will better prepare a child to excel in the competitive modern world, which instead requires knowledge of actual science, not 2,000+ year old superstitions.
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John P Maher
SMARTEST QUOTE IV"E HEARD in MANY MANY MOONS, VERY REFRESHING !
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i am grateful that Oklahoma is trying to bring bibles to public school after all my cousin in M