A Jewish synagogue in Florida has challenged a restrictive new 15-week abortion ban in Florida, arguing that it violates their freedom of religion.
Florida’s abortion ban, set to go into effect in July, would prevent abortion after 15 weeks with only a few exceptions, such as if the life of the mother is at risk.
It does not include a provision allowing abortion for pregnancies that result from rape or incest.
Now, Congregation L'Dor Va-Dor is challenging the new law in Florida courts, arguing that a Jewish woman’s access to an abortion is not only an important right, but one mandated by Jewish teachings.
Do they have a case?
God-Given Right
The lawsuit contends that Florida's law tramples religious freedom by violating Jewish faith beliefs. The argument reads in part:
“In Jewish law, abortion is necessary if required to protect the health, mental or physical well-being of the women or for many other reasons not permitted [by Florida's abortion law]. As such, the act prohibits Jewish women from practicing their faith free of government intrusion and this violates their privacy rights and religious freedom."
"Jewish law does not consider life to begin at conception or at 15 weeks and most Jews… do not believe that all the rights of personhood are conferred upon a fetus.”
This challenge on religious grounds is a move that many saw coming. When the initial draft that would reverse Roe v. Wade was leaked out last month, experts pointed out that some Jews interpret passages from the Torah to mean mandating abortion if the mental or physical health of the pregnant woman is at risk.
The most common passage cited is Exodus 21:22-23, which details the injury of a pregnant woman that results in a miscarriage. The verse states that if the pregnant woman is injured, the penalty must be blood, but if the only harm committed is the miscarriage, then only a fine must be levied.
According to the National Council of Jewish Women, “the common rabbinical interpretation of this verse is that the men did not commit murder and that the fetus is not a person.”
Christian Supremacy?
Because abortion bans are so closely tied with Christian teachings that hold abortion is morally wrong, the lawsuit sets up an interesting showdown between Christian and Jewish beliefs.
When it comes to religious freedom, which set of beliefs will win out?
Pro-choice activists argue that restrictive abortion laws represent the unconstitutional imposition of Christian supremacy. By favoring the biblical interpretation that life begins at conception, the law steamrolls and ignores other faiths that interpret things differently.
And for the organizers of the lawsuit, it’s hard not to see something more sinister at play. The synagogue's lawsuit explains:
“The Jewish people have often borne the brunt of the horrors that occur when the power of Christianity has merged with the power of the state. The result has been Inquisitions, Crusades, ghettoes and pogroms for the Jews and the eventual loss of freedom for everyone else.
The architects of the Act have taken a first step towards… returning the state of Florida and our nation back to a time when the merger of Christianity and government produced genocide, slavery, misogyny, and the denial of equal rights and in many cases, any rights at all to those who did not share the gender, race or religion of those in power.”
Those are some pretty major alarm bells that the plaintiffs are ringing.
But political leaders in Florida see things differently – they say they're confident the law will withstand all legal challenges.
What is your take?
263 comments
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Judith Ann Keairns
Our God has formed abortions. His word says "Life begins when the baby is born and takes its first breath. Then it becomes a living soul.". Not before. Genesis..
I, as a Pastor, believe in God's word. Too many go by their opinion expecting God to agree with them which causes hatred.
No woman, or children should never be forced to bear a baby under any circumstances since the "baby is not a living soul" according to God. So why must we force God to change His mind?
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Judith Ann Keairns
Our God has formed abortions. His word says "Life begins when the baby is born and takes its first breath. Then it becomes a living soul.". Not before. Genesis..
I, as a Pastor, believe in God's word. Too many go by their opinion expecting God to agree with them which causes hatred.
No woman, or children should never be forced to bear a baby under any circumstances since the "baby is not a living soul" according to God. So why must we force God to change His mind?
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Judith Ann Keairns
Our God has formed abortions. His word says "Life begins when the baby is born and takes its first breath. Then it becomes a living soul.". Not before. Genesis..
I, as a Pastor, believe in God's word. Too many go by their opinion expecting God to agree with them which causes hatred.
No woman, or children should never be forced to bear a baby under any circumstances since the "baby is not a living soul" according to God. So why must we force God to change His mind?
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David Rallo
At fertilization all there is, is a “zygote”. A zygote is a ball of living but undifferentiated cells. Every living cell or group of cells is a member of one species or another. There are no unclassified living things. A zygote will not become anything but a human baby. The cells of a zygote soon form a fetus which continues to develop into a human baby. There are no other choices. It’s a simple scientific and biological fact that the cells of the zygote are cells of a new human life. The fetus is not even part of the mother’s body. If it was, the fetus would have 100% of the exact same DNA as the mother. But the fetus has only one half of the DNA of the mother. The other half is the DNA of the father. The fetus only occupies space in the mother’s body, a human life all the while, in the process of developing into a human baby with normal human attributes. Plaintiffs in the Florida lawsuit claim the Florida abortion law violates freedom of religion. Florida, as does every state, has a murder statute. The lawsuit claims the restrictive Florida abortion law conflicts with the constitutionally guaranteed prohibition of states limiting the free exercise of plaintiff’s religion. But states are permitted to put limits on the exercise of freedom of religion. For example, if a core principle of a religion requires each congregation to sacrifice a child on the day of the summer solstice, the state has the right to prohibit that kind of religious practice. Florida has decided its limitation on abortion does not violate the guarantee of free exercise of religion and the courts are likely to agree.
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James Bryan Serman
I believe that every man married or not who is found guilty of rape or incest through DNA testing should face both imprisonment and or chemical castration depending on the violence perpetrated against the victim at the time of the personal violation.
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Krystina S.
Cause women get pregnant all by themselves? Parthenogenesis? I think not. All too often, the girl/woman does not have full bodily autonomy AT THE TIME OF sexual activity. It is usually called rape. Birth control can be unsuccessful as well.
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David Bartlett
There are valid arguments for permitting some abortions and even declaring them as rights (but not all). But religious belief is not one of them. If the supreme court decides that you can get an abortion contrary to the law solely because your church says you must or should or have a right to as part of your religious practice than that sets the precedent to permit other laws to be broken also for religious purposes. Human sacrifice comes to mind.
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Lady Celynia
I believe abortion should be used in very limited circumstances. I think what needs to happen is religion must be taken out of the matter entirely. We need a change in thinking on several levels. Rape is never okay. It is never a good ol' boy event or a college boy mistake. Rape must be made abhorrent to everyone. Strict penalties, deterrents, social censure, etc. The same with incest. We as humans must grow beyond any type of sexual abuse being the norm. Every day there are women on social media threatened by both men and women with rape as a punishment for thinking differently. This type thing needs to be a zero tolerance policy by every one. Same with incest and any other sexual attack. Then there is no need for aborting the results of these types attacks.
Birth control should be available for everyone. Low cost ABC, easy access to condoms, IUD, etc. We have the tech and the science. Let's use them to prevent unwanted pregnancy. This again, is the result of education.
Stop the sexualization of our children in the media, online, etc. Stop human sex trafficking. We need a zero tolerance policy for sex offenses. Period.
Religion needs to be removed from the bedroom in the same way that thousands of years of slavery (even though it is promoted in the religious texts) was removed from human idea of what is good and correct.
Once this is achieved, the need for abortion will be a think of the past or only used in an extreme medical emergency.
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Paul Edward Nunis
When the Alito/Thomas cabal cites witch burning - rape apologist - divine right of kings zealot Matthew Hale as the 'eminent jurist' on whose beliefs they based their legal rulings... you can be sure that they don't mean Buddhists, Wiccans, Muslims, or Jews under the new penumbra they've drawn around the 1st (or 5th and 14th) amendment freedoms.
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Takaya Kovani Sweeney
“The architects of the Act have taken a first step towards… returning the state of Florida and our nation back to a time when the merger of Christianity and government produced genocide, slavery, misogyny, and the denial of equal rights and in many cases, any rights at all to those who did not share the gender, race or religion of those in power.”
This is the very objective…
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Michael Hinkle
Why Israel making abortion easier and allowing killings of babies. God forbid such evil acts. Sorry I do not support Israel of their abortion easy access.
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Anisahoni
God committed those acts. Just start reading your holy book. This is so sad to see so much ignorance among those who proclaim to be Christians.
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Christine Rennie
If you stop a beating heart,you murdered a form of Life, a part of "Jesus", the Jews killed him for no faults,of his own,King Harold wanted him dead,now what has changed since Eve betrayed God's word,an then all evil bloomed,an now,I say a fetus,baby,what ever word you want to use,it still has a beating heart,an flesh,if it's murdered for another's rights,then let's go to the rights of the heart, Have you ever saw a fetus grabbing for the stencils used to grab its neck.an n the womb.I BET you haven't but I have an it's NOT PRETTY.it's videos of the fetus pulling an grabbing at that thing knowing it's being hurt,then 5 minutes later, it's n a hand.stop the Madness,just so u can go do it again. STOP.forgiven is one thing,continuing this is evil.
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Anisahoni
Wow, what fairy tales have you been reading? Jesus was an Essene Jew, his father was a Jew as was his mother, the woman he loved and his ancestors. The Romans executed him because he called for the overthrow of the of the Roman government. He was an anarchist. A rabbi. You have been indoctrinated by a misogynistic arm of Christianity which has worked hard to deny Jesus' heritage and birthright. Your God was a Jew, his only begotten was a Jew as his mother, grandparents, etc. There is no mention of abortion in the Bible other than God killing babies, slicing open the bellies of pregnant women and dashing them against rocks, and slaughtering children. Once on Sunday Christians are dangerous as they perpetuate lies and myths. A fetus grabbing for the stencils? A fetus doesn't have arms. What a sick lying mind,.
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Pastor George Day
Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, the time and energy you spend typing your unhistorical and unscientific nonsense would be better spent doing your own research. The very fact that you state that Jesus tried to overthrow the Roman empire shows your complete ignorance of history! Judas betrayed him precisely because he was not doing just that, and Judas was a zealot. As for what a fetus looks like, I bet you have never even bothered to check! I would keep my mouth shut, since increasingly you are sounding like a lesbian androphobe and de-facto antisemitic!
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Anisahoni
Wow, you are showing me I am living rent free in your head with your fantasy of who you think I am. You sound like an unloved creature who is fearful of women, especially those who speak up and are educated. FYI, I completed a 1 year graduate clinical internship at Planned Parenthood of Philadelphia, so yes, I do know what fetal tissue looks like. I am married into a Jewish family, have learned a great deal about Judaism, have attending services for over 35 years with my husband, am heterosexual, and not homophobic like you. Biblical scholars have pointed to Jesus' absolute hatred of the Romans, who enslaved the Jews. It has been pointed out by Jewish Scholars he wanted to over throw the Roman leadership and the corrupt rabbis. So you can choose to learn more deeply the historical Jesus rather than a half baked story of who he was. You can also chose to examine your fear and closed mind. Move on my dear.
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Paul Edward Nunis
Isn't dooming 12 year old incest/rape victims (and their babies)to die in child birth just as wrong?
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Pastor George Day
Christine Rennie, thank you for your comment. This is exactly what brought my atheist medical friend to become pro-life. He saw it with his own eyes. Anyone with a true conscience cannot but admit life begins at conception.
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Rev. MichaelRS
Let's be clear about something; Every person, either individually or as a group, is entitled to their opinion.
However, it is simply not true if anyone suggests that the congregation behind this lawsuit is representative of the totality of Jewish thought on the subject.
If they do suggest that they've obviously never heard of the Jewish Pro-Life Foundation.
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Marius Gabriel Burja
This is proof that Jesus was not is not and will not ever be a Jew. He's a Universalist that knew and understood Universal Plasma Cosmology.
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Christine Rennie
He's a Jew
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Pastor George Day
Marius Gabriel Burja, remember that Universalism is a Christian pastoral approach birthed in Quakerism.
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Richard Lee Cornell
In my religion a woman has the right to control her body. Any other person from a different religion that say otherwise risk being attack by our religion either by force or by word. Our weapons have been known to turn our enemies into names of the back page of a newspaper. When it comes to Catholics they better be reminded that their Pope is the head of the Catholic Church which resides in Italy and is seen as a nation by the UN. The Catholic priests swears their body and soul to the Catholic Church making them in as a agent of a foreign government. They should be treated as such.
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Timothy Albaugh
It is not religion that dictates abortion. It is The LORD ALMIGHTY, For every life you take you WILL be punished with your soul in the fire and torment of hell. GOD nor his son are of religion. Religion is man made. The word is GOD No man can be confirmed of man saved or forgiven, Jesus is the only ONLY one who can save you, If you do not believe and trust in him and live as he told us there is no saving grace for you. Abortion is murder, keep you legs together, Men Be a man and join in union and be both responsible for ALL LIFE and keep the children and not murder them. SATAN has from the beginning lied to the woman and convinced her to take the knowledge of sin and then enticed the man to also accept the knowledge of sin and both then were cast out. Don,t let Satan of this world take you to HELL. The woman is the avenue through which all temptation has been given. Revelations: Who is riding on the beast and controlling the 10 HEADS?? read understand and live as best as you can. GOD BLESS YOU ALL
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Anisahoni
Your "lord almighty" committed infanticide over and over again. Ripped babies form their mother's wombs and killed children. You have not read your holy book. Start reading it from cover to cover and you will find the your Jewish God was a crazed jealous murderer.
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Lionheart
Do you believe everything you read in books written by men, and in some cases written by people who didn’t know where the Sun went at night?
Your book that you believe in is full of claims with no demonstrable evidence. There’s no demonstrable evidence of anything your Jesus friend is supposed to have said, is factually true. Those historians that wrote about him never knew him, and those that were alive during his supposed time on earth never wrote about him. Go figure🤷🏼
We don’t even know if any of the gods that mankind has created really exist. Even yours doesn’t seem to have any powers to actually show up from time-to-time to help those in need, especially little children dying of cancer.
🦁❤️
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Rev. MichaelRS
I'm not sure of the reason for your post, other than to reaffirm the premise of every religion that they are based on FAITH and to demonstrate that you definitely do not WANT God to exist.
But I've never heard anybody ask another what their religious fact is. It's always been, What is your religious faith?
But whether they agree with you or not, in one fell swoop you just dismissed everybody who calls themselves a Jew, Christian, Muslim or any derivative thereof (at this point just keeping it simple to faiths that trace their lineage back to Abraham as the basic founder).
I understand it if it comes from a minister or other religious person that believes that THEIR faith is the TRUE one. I mean if somebody does not believe that what is the point of being in their faith, right?
But to deny the existence of a deity in any way shape or form does not sound very Minister-like to me.
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Lionheart
Of course all religions are biased on faith Michael, and the reason for that is because that's all they have. They would love to have some real hard facts to show that their deity that they believe in is the real one, but we all seem to know that is not going to happen.
You are wrong saying that I definitely do not want a god to exist. If there really is a god I hope it's not the Abrahamic deity that has caused nothing but death, destruction and mayhem. I also hope fairies are real, but somehow I think they have as much chance of being real as deities do.
I'm not denying the existence of a deity, fairies, elves, Sasquatch, the Loch Ness Monster et al, how can I, but I think I'm on safe ground saying that so far, no one has managed to prove any of these that I have listed really do exist.
As for your comment about Abraham, we still don't have any factual knowledge that he ever existed, much like Moses, apart from anecdotal stories and tales listed in a book.
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart, that is not correct. It has been proved that Abraham (he was a pagan prince, which explains his wife's name [Sarai/Sarah = princess in two different languages] was probably a mere title), Moses, Elijah, Elisha et al did in fact exist as historical characters. Even Jonah, who miraculously survived the acids of a whale's belly, has been identified as the young boy miraculously resurrected by Elisha in the Old Testament. We have evidence that these people, including Jesus, did exist. Now, the question is whether we accept the stories, teachings and claims associated with them.
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Lionheart
Please provide any demonstrable evidence you are aware of, George to show they were real, apart from anecdotal stories written in a book by people who were not contemporary of the time period. If you can’t, then your statement that “it has been proved” remains fallacious.
Are they just as real as Voldemort, or Dumbledore, or even Zeus, and Thor, all written about in other books?🤷🏼
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart, you are touching on the mystery of suffering. We Christians affirm that God took on suffering on himself. He is with us in suffering and our pain gains meaning.
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Lionheart
Your god didn’t take on the suffering of all those he killed, as previously mentioned in another of your posts. They suffered, George, and died as a result. How come my morals are way higher than your gods moral values?
Have you really convinced yourself that suffering by a God is a mystery? That is the mind of Christian apologists, because they don’t have any real answers, so they just say there must be a reason, which we don’t understand. It’s a complete fallacious copout isn’t it, if the truth was to be known?
Try telling children who are dying of cancer, or on the battlefields in Ukraine, or anyone suffering, that their god is with them, as they die, horribly, and in pain.
To me, your god is an uncaring, genocidal, infanticidal, butcher. I could never worship such a mythical monster that appears to have conned everyone that its a loving deity, and yet amazingly, and unfortunately, many people have fallen for it. 🤷🏼
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Jamal Jones
I hope they don't win because in the Torah it says before you were I knew you. How can it not be a soul or person for God to know you before you are born
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Lionheart
Who cares what it says in a book? Do you believe everything you read?
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart, when it comes to the Bible, yes.
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Lionheart
You believe everything in the Bible, George? I’m amazed! So if you do, you will believe it was morally okay for your god to kill those first born children, kill almost everyone on earth by downing, even little children, babies, and pregnant women, that’s if those stories were true. You will presumably support your god condoning slavery, and his condoning that slaves could be beaten as long as they didn’t die in the first two days after being beaten. Do you really think it’s okay for your god to instruct stoning a man to death for picking up sticks on the sabbath day 😱
If you believe the claims of the Bible, who do you think it was, that wasn’t there, that wrote about Jesus ‘being on his own” in the Garden of Gethsemane talking to his father, while all the apostles slept?
What was it that made you believe in the anecdotal biblical stories, and not the stories in the Quran, or the Bhagavad Gita, or Book of Mormon, etc., or haven’t you read any other books deemed as scripture?
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Donald B. Schultze
https://friends.carenetdane.org/2019/01/17/what-does-the-bible-say-about-abortion/#:~:text=The%20prophet%20Jeremiah%20writes%2C%20%E2%80%9CHe,11%3A5%2C%20ESV).
These fine Jewish ladies should read their Hebrew Scriptures to see when Elohim considered life to begin, or just openly deny the existence of Yahweh!
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Anisahoni
Your lord God was a Jew as was his son, his son's mother, grandparents and so on. Study harder.
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Rev. MichaelRS
God is neither Jew or Gentile or black or white or any other national or racial category man can conceive of. He (and let's not get bogged down on silly pronoun arguments) is simply that being Abraham started a relationship with basing the entirety of the Jewish faith on there being only One True God.
Thus any other religion being valid is antithetical to THE very foundation of Judaism.
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Anisahoni
Jesus was a Jew. His mother was a Jew. Obviously his father-God was a Jew. Of course it's hard to accept. His grandparents were Jews. Children inherit 100% their DNA from parents. 50% from mother, and 50% from father. He had both the X and Y chromosome as a male. If he didn't inherit half of his DNA from his Jewish father, he would have never survived with severe deformities if he lived long enough to even be born. Jesus followed Jewish Law. He never stopped living his life in accordance with Jewish Law. Why is it so hard to understand that? There is no other explanation. To be Jewish is not only based on faith. It was his Essene Jewish culture and his tribal identity. He wasn't Christian and his father supported his practice as a rabbi..
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Kaya Starbuck
They might have a shot since it's one of the Abrahamic religions. If this were literally any other faith protesting, everyone would just laugh at it. Wyrd Witches Worldwide are rooting for you!
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Donna Christ
Even though we are Ministers,it is not our place to judge,we can talk to people suggest things and so on .But only God can judge a person for their sin a mortal.Ministers are to guide their congregation to God not condemn them to preach the word not shove it down their throats.Jesus said love your brother as yourself, well if you're pushy you don't need to be a minister.
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Joseph Keenan
I personally find it hilarious that the christians in the country want to take away rights and have people living in a North Korean atmosphere where you have to worship Fearless Leader (2016 election) and are in bondage to a religion you don't believe in as well as to a fascist leader (there are no democracies in the bible, only kingdom and tyrants which include the characters of Jesus and Yahweh).
Jews and the Satanic Temple are the last bastions to fight against the theocracy that a minority of Americas want to happen.
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Pastor George Day
Joseph Keenan, who said democracy is the best way of government? I for one, in my freedom of opinion, do not think soi. Hitler was chosen through democracy.
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Rev. MichaelRS
While I do not agree on the restrictiveness of the Florida abortion law for ALL people, I don't think it should be fought with ridiculous hyperbole as exampled by the very last of the article where the lawsuit is talking about sinister motives.
Additionally, while this lawsuit was brought by a group associated with a very liberal reform congregation, it can hardly be said that it is reflective of all Jewish thought/teaching on the issue of abortion.
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Anisahoni
So you went to Hebrew School? You know little about Jewish women. These bans are based on misogyny, and Talibangelicals. Each state should now introduce legislation to mandate vasectomies for all males over 13. Equal opportunity to have the states control everyone's body. When men lose control they will whine and overturn all bans on abortion. If you can't get pregnant, sit down. Yes some of us believe in equal opportunity and body autonomy. This is not a liberal, repub or a political issue. Politicians have shown total ignorance of biology and support radical Talibangelicals.
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Rev. MichaelRS
Particularly in light of overturning Roe v. Wade, some on the left are characterizing the conservative members of the Supreme Court as "activist judges", the clear implication being that that is a bad thing. But It's funny how they don't seem to have a problem with "activist judges" when they make rulings in their favor.
In fact, in speech after speech from various liberal politicians, they have made it clear that they wish to install activist judges, at all levels, who are activists for THEIR point of view.
Personally I am not a fan of activist judges on either side. I want judges to follow the law, particularly as it relates to the Constitution, and the intent of the legislature when those laws were made.
But as to this aboration issue, the left has nobody to blame but themselves . THEY have put a very sour taste in the mouth of the American people over the issue by their actions over the last 10 years.
No matter how one feels about this issue personally, you have to recognize the fact that most people are not far-left or far-right on it. Most people were able to live with "safe, legal and rare".
But in recent years the radical leftist shouting that abortion should be legal, as a matter of choice up through the late third trimester or just because the baby is a girl or a boy and you wanted the other, really soured a lot of people to their cause overall.
Come November I don't think that this decision by the Supreme Court is going to be the political bump many on the left think, or hope, that it will be. Being able to have an abortion on demand is not what the vast majority of Americans are concerned with on a daily basis.
As far as going to Hebrew school goes... compare the general position of Orthodox Judaism on abortion to that of the Reform or Reconstructionist positions.
If you bother to do that you will find that my statement is true; The position of the congregation that is supposedly leading this lawsuit is NOT reflective of ALL Jewish thought on the matter. Anybody that continues to insist that it is, is outright lying.
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Anisahoni
The right of privacy, the right for us women to control our health care decisions the right to control our bodies is not a left or right issue any more than the right to have weapons for self protection. If men were responsible, there would be fewer abortions due to contraceptive failures. Over 65% of abortions are due to medical complications. Unfortunately you chose to dismiss the thousands of Jews in this nation who support a woman's privacy rights and right to control her body.
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Rev. MichaelRS
I dismiss nobody. Jews in America in the more liberal branches of Judaism are completely entitled to their opinion.
MY point is, to say or suggest that THAT opinion is the totality of "Jewish thought", either as a group or individually, on the subject is just not true.
Or perhaps you not have not heard of the Jewish Pro-Life Foundation.
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Daniel Gray
there is no such thing as the right to privacy in the Constitution, not in the 9th or the 14th or anywhere else. Now if you think there is then quote the chapter and verse. I wont hold my breath waiting.
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Doc Michael Pepper
Any Biblical scholars out there who would like to put emotions aside and help me understand what the Bible really says about abortion? (So yes, let's get very "technical"). Let's start with that Exodus 21:23 passage everyone is quoting. In the old Hebrew (not the English translations) isn't it "take a soul for a soul" and not "a life for a life"? So when do we get our soul? In Genesis doesn't it make clear "man" got his soul when the Lord breathed into him? Isn't "soul" equated with breath and breathing? So following this logic, you get your soul when you start breathing. This would have the passage then referring only to the woman when it talks about "soul for soul". Now I know many will quickly argue that this too "technical" and you must go with "interpretation". Of course this leads to the problem that for a couple of thousand of years or more, Jewish rabbis have interpreted the passage to mean the woman, not the unborn. Many Christians are saying that interpretation is wrong, but again, I'm back to The Word (the actual Word), not the translated word. I can find no clear passage anywhere in the Bible or it's laws, against abortion specifically. Why isn't there a commandment that says "Thou shall not have an abortion?" Can anyone give me a biblical verse specifically against abortion?
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Pastor George Day
Doc Michael Pepper, 'nephesh' is the word that translates 'soul.' It is understood in Hebrew as 'being' a soul, not 'having' a soul. As for a clear command against abortion, life really begins with God. Several passages in Scripture (you can look them up, there are many) refer to the baby formed in the womb as being in the mind of God, therefore alive.
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Anisahoni
Life begins at first breath. This is a long held religious and spiritual belief among Jews, many Native American tribal peoples, Muslims, etc. I find it ridiculous to see men posting antichoice rhetoric when the easiest solution is to mandate forced vasectomiies just like forced birth. Do your part men. Condoms break, BC pills don't always work either. I have a son to prove that. Pregnancy interruption is a medical procedure, a health care decision, just like those guys who want viagara. Get a vasectomy, stop whining. If you don't have a uterus, don't worry about a strange woman's uterus. Nothing a stranger does affects you. Mind your own penis, get a vasectomy. And for those of you who want to point to your so called holy book, there are many tales of your god murdering babies, older children and women. Obviously you have not studied your Bibles. Your god wasn't "pro-life."
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Joseph SCott Queen
If you believe this story than yes, you're being lied to. The only people who believe God is for homosexuilty are those who are not of God. They argue about God's scripture and haven't a clue what it really means. It's not even good to explain it to them for their mind is closed.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Your the one with the closed off mind. I’m Pagan, and have many gods. Your scriptures don’t apply to me. You’re blind zealot on a damned path, and your too far gone to barbaric principles to understand there’s more to life than your bloody cult.
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Anisahoni
We were all created in the image and likeness of god. Those 12 apostles runnning around the desert with your Lord and Savior Jesus were gay.
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James Boehlje
the unborn baby be sacrificed to save the mother? Maimonides explains that the fetus has the law of a rodef, one who is pursuing another with intent to kill, whose life may be taken in order to save the would-be victim. It is thus permitted to abort the fetus, surgically or through medication, since the fetus is seen as an active threat to the mother’s life.6
But why is it the fetus whose life is sacrificed for the mother, and not the other way around? Apparently, the unborn child, although a living being, does not yet have a status of personhood equal to its mother. Only once its head has begun to leave the birth canal, are the two considered on equal standing.7
To what extent is the fetus considered a danger to the mother? What if the mother is experiencing psychological or emotional suffering? As this is a very sensitive and nuanced area, a qualified rabbi—together with medical experts—must be consulted.
In addition to assessing the danger, the rabbi will take the duration of the pregnancy into consideration. Although abortion is generally forbidden even before the fetus is considered viable (in fact, simply “wasting seed” is in itself considered a serious transgression), depending on the stage of pregnancy there is considerable debate as to the exact nature of the prohibition.
For example, some explain that there is a difference between aborting in the first 72 hours (when it can still be classed as preventing conception), the first 40 days8 (before the limbs and organs form), the first three months, and until seven months (when the fetus is considered viable).
In the case of rape, for example, many would permit preventing conception by taking medication within 72 hours of coitus (and some, depending on the circumstances, may permit up to 40 days).9 The Fetus in Judaism
We know that the fetus is not considered as “alive” as someone who has been born. But neither is it simply a mass of flesh without a soul. The Jewish Approach to Abortion in Short
Under normal circumstances it is forbidden to take the life of an unborn child, and it may be akin to murder (depending on the stage of pregnancy and birth, see footnote11).
As long as the unborn remains a fetus, it does not have a status of personhood equal to its mother, and therefore may be sacrificed to save the life of the mother.
In any case where abortion may be necessary, it is of paramount importance to consult halachic and medical experts as soon as possible.
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Joseph SCott Queen
Don't push your beliefs on me. Abortion is murder and I am against it! Don't try pushing your made-up religion me. And the law of the land is that murder is wrong! That baby in the womb is made up of two different DNA's: The mother's and the father's so it's not her body! Just stop having sex, isn't that what should happen? Stop dressing seductive, stop talking dirty.
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Anisahoni
'Stop dressing seductive"? "Stop having sex"? Seriously? Living in a cave? You men should be responsible for your sperm and get vasectomies. If you can't get pregnant or are concerned about anoth4er woman's uterus, sit down and be quiet.
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Minister Ronda
I believe that Rape or incest is not mentioned in the bill due to the ability to access Levonorgestrel which would be the first course of action in my opinion
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Anisahoni
Too much estrogen causes estrogen dependent breast cancer. That's why aromatase inhibiters are prescribed for certain hormone receptor breast cancers. Vasectomy is the only reliable and reasonable choice.
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David Wayne Yager
We have lost sight of our calling how many times have you prepared a sermon and God changes that sermon at the last second. judge not lest ye be judged. Simply rely on god's lead and what he wants will be and stop arguing among ourselves
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David Wayne Yager
Wow we are all supposed to be ministering to the people about God..seems like we lost track along the line with all of the personal views! God lays on our hearts what message he wants to be conveyed why not take personal conviction out of the equation and let the Lord God speak through you? Almost always one will prepare a sermon and at the last second God will change that sermon for you and guide you to the passage he wants presented to the congregation. I by no means am perfect however I trust that God will provide that which is needed at that time.
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Joseph Terry Papillion
When I comment, you don't post.
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Joseph Terry Papillion
Everyone seems to have a personal interest. Many who say they are children of God suddenly have zero respect for God as their personal interests quickly superceed the clear and obvious will of our almighty Creator. Alas, the one true God is undefeated, and will win again as His will gets done on earth as it it is in heaven.
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Marquita Phyllis Greig
God approves of war, according to the bible,eg., the Israelites going into Caanan. They were told to wipe out every man, woman and child, plus all of their livestock. So, why would he disapprove of an abortion?
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Lumina
Because you are killing an innocent child, that did not ask to be born. If the woman who had sex would take precautions she would not get pregnant. Right
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Joseph Terry Papillion
The wars you refer to were children of God vs people who were completely evil and totolly ungodly. To compare that to people who say they love God then shout, jump, make threats, and demand to kill innocent new born babies as a way to fornicate is an especially egregious evil in itself. Regardless of what a mob, or even the government decides, a soverign God will have His way ...much to chagrin of many.
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Lumina
Because you are killing an innocent child, that did not ask to be born. If the woman who had sex would take precautions she would not get pregnant. Right
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Anisahoni
If men were responsible for controlling their sperm there would be fewer abortions. Besides, If you don't have a uterus or never had one, best you get a vasectomy. It's easy.
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Pastor George Day
Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, you really are a broken record!
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Anisahoni
Broken record? Wow you must be a dinosaur to use that term. Snowflake much? Your ridiculous comment is indicative of your fear of women, that you actually believe your words carry some power. Am so sorry you feel so unloved. Go meditate, take a walk in a forest, or go soak in lavender oil. You might feel a lot more human.
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Pastor George Day
Marquita Phyllis Greig, Canaanites were violent and child murderer people already. The Old Testament is about reducing violence, not promoting it. It culminates with the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. Put things in perspective or ask a qualified theologian before making unwise comments like that.
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Marquita Phyllis Greig
A woman's body is not property. Why are there no laws about men's bodies? Why aren't the men making women pregnant not being held under a law? Why are women being punished for something that takes two to do?
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Anisahoni
It's called misogyny. Frightened little men who fear women and fear getting a vasectomy want to dictate women's health care decisions.
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Robert Daniel Taylor
Yes, it does take two. Should the male of the two also have a say about the future of the unborn fetus?
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Lumina
Because in the first place take care of yourself so you do not get pregnant. But when it comes to sex they forget about everything else. Keep your dam legs shut, then you will not get pregnant
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Joy
I am tired of people, especially other women, blaming women for getting pregnant. "Keep your dam legs shut"? Really? That's what you have to say?
How about rape? How about a woman who has a one night stand? How about two people that both decide they don't want a baby?
The mere fact that people continue to blame the woman shows the patriarch is very much still alive and well.
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Pastor George Day
Marquita Phyllis Greig, is giving birth to a child a 'punishment'??
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Janine Claudette Heizler
Even though it is difficult, I want to put religion to the side for a moment and just focus on the problem with a moral and ethical mindset. First of all, I do believe that a woman has the right to decide whether or not she should continue with a pregnancy. There are a myriad of items to consider such as financial resources, employment, housing situation amongst other things. The responsibility of a child is not just an immediate concern but rather, a long-term situation and shouldn't be taken lightly. Let's also take into the consideration the enormous amount of children that are currently in the foster care system in the United States. I'm just going to use for an example, the state of Florida with the most current statistics that I can find. According to www.fostercapacity.com , in 2021 there were 23,229 children in foster care in the state. Of course, the children all have different situations but (some might be returning to their parent's care) there's 23,229 homeless children without a real family of their own. There's 8,867 licensed foster homes in the state of Florida and then there's an additional amount of foster homes situations that are not licensed. People are not beating down the doors to adopt these children and thus, they remain in a foster care situation sometimes being shuffled around from one foster care placement to another until they reach the age of 18 years old. For most of them, their futures look pretty grim and hopefully they had good, stable foster homes with people that genuinely cared for them and perhaps helped them with job skills training or more. But we also hear about all those horror stories in the news about the demise of children that weren't as fortunate with their foster care arrangements. Then there's the pointing of fingers as to whose to blame for the unfortunate treatment of those innocent victims; the one's that didn't quite make it. The foster care system is already over-burdened. It is the women's choice and should remain as such. I do believe however, that a woman should make her decision expeditiously, as early into the pregnancy as possible and that there should be a 12-15 week limit on ending a pregnancy as any later would in my mind, be considered murder.
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Anisahoni
I agree with some of your statements. But how is abortion murder? It's not and you men have done nothing over the years to support vasectomies. You have considered it to be the woman's responsibility but not your responsibility to control your sperm. It is time to stop pointing fingers at women and do what is right. A man can impregnate multiple women in a short period of time resulting in multiple births. Those who want forced birth are not prolife. They don't give a damn about all those thousands of kids in foster care. They did nothing to help all the children kept in cages as they looked down on little indigenous children escaping horrible conditions across the borders.
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Pastor George Day
Janine Claudette Heizler, OK so let us murder all the unborn babies because there is no room for them! What a theory!
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Mark Joseph Lutz
Why must all the non-Christian cultures continue to be burdened with the inhibitions and phobias of the Christians? There are many laws still on the books that only exist because someone (god, demi-god, or faith leader) in Christianity's past told them that it was naughty. Why the surprise that they would want to add more?
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Mark Christopher High
Obviously abortion is murder. People kill each other all the time. Like the drunk driver. Standards are not very high for cherishing life. Everytime politicians want to distract you, they bring out abortion and gun control. Thou shalt not kill is apparently subject to many loop holes. A babylonian culture, a polyglot of peoples, relies on the morals of its religions.Religions are diminishing as the truth of how they originated is revealed. To push spirituality forward, new priorities and social reform that makes sense must change the obsolete. Some people will put away the wars and weapons, the selfish actions. Most will not.
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Anisahoni
The God of the Bible repeatedly slaughtered babies, young children and pregnant women. There was no mention of abortion, although God did a fine job of carryig out unwanted abortions.
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Davy Dee Murphy
After reading through above and seeing some of the manner of interaction between folks and their religious views. While also thinking of my own opinions, as a person who tries but often fails to stay in the middle road on most things. A verse comes to mind.
James 1:26 Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless.
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Pastor George Day
Amen!
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Julie Armstrong
First off I am Pro Choice! I believe no one except a women herself has the right to make that decision. The Mother and Father can talk about it if she chooses to do so, ultimately it is her decision. She will be the one caring he the baby. Second, I believe 15 weeks is good, a baby isn't a person at conception it's not human. It can not live outside of the body before 24 weeks gestation. After 24 weeks then personally I feel we have a problem. By 15 week you can see how the baby has developed. Does it have any deformities? Was it RAPE/INCEST? ABORT. A child is suppose to be made out of LOVE! NOT GROSSNESS! ANY man who wants and I say man because it's mostly men in government who decides a woman's fate, that says it should be totally illegal must have skeletons' in their closet....like rape and incest they have committed. Third, A woman knows by 15 weeks if she is pregnant we aren't that stupid. 15 weeks tells you if there is something wrong with the baby so you can make an intelligent decision to keep or abort. Fourth, I personally believe after 15 weeks if the birth will harm the mom, then it should be aborted. Fifth, I am not Jewish, nor am I familiar with that particular belief in their faith. I do believe if it can survive outside then body THEN it is human, before that it is not. Sixth, I believe the New York law which allows abortion even at birth is MURDER and should not be done. At that point give it up for adoption. Murder is against the law in any religion.
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Pastor George Day
Julie Armstrong, murder at birth is simply a natural consequence of botched abortions, Get your thinking straight.
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JT of the plains
Just consider this passage from the Hebrew Scriptures: Numbers 5:11-31 (NRSV) 11 The LORD spoke to Moses, saying: 12 Speak to the Israelites and say to them: If any man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him, 13 if a man has had intercourse with her but it is hidden from her husband, so that she is undetected though she has defiled herself, and there is no witness against her since she was not caught in the act; 14 if a spirit of jealousy comes on him, and he is jealous of his wife who has defiled herself; or if a spirit of jealousy comes on him, and he is jealous of his wife, though she has not defiled herself; 15 then the man shall bring his wife to the priest. And he shall bring the offering required for her, one-tenth of an ephah of barley flour. He shall pour no oil on it and put no frankincense on it, for it is a grain offering of jealousy, a grain offering of remembrance, bringing iniquity to remembrance. 16 Then the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the LORD; 17 the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel, and take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it into the water. 18 The priest shall set the woman before the LORD, dishevel the woman’s hair, and place in her hands the grain offering of remembrance, which is the grain offering of jealousy. In his own hand the priest shall have the water of bitterness that brings the curse. 19 Then the priest shall make her take an oath, saying, “If no man has lain with you, if you have not turned aside to uncleanness while under your husband’s authority, be immune to this water of bitterness that brings the curse. 20 But if you have gone astray while under your husband’s authority, if you have defiled yourself and some man other than your husband has had intercourse with you,” 21 —let the priest make the woman take the oath of the curse and say to the woman—“the LORD make you an execration and an oath among your people, when the LORD makes your uterus drop, your womb discharge; 22 now may this water that brings the curse enter your bowels and make your womb discharge, your uterus drop!” And the woman shall say, “Amen. Amen.” 23 Then the priest shall put these curses in writing, and wash them off into the water of bitterness. 24 He shall make the woman drink the water of bitterness that brings the curse, and the water that brings the curse shall enter her and cause bitter pain. 25 The priest shall take the grain offering of jealousy out of the woman’s hand, and shall elevate the grain offering before the LORD and bring it to the altar; 26 and the priest shall take a handful of the grain offering, as its memorial portion, and turn it into smoke on the altar, and afterward shall make the woman drink the water. 27 When he has made her drink the water, then, if she has defiled herself and has been unfaithful to her husband, the water that brings the curse shall enter into her and cause bitter pain, and her womb shall discharge, her uterus drop, and the woman shall become an execration among her people. 28 But if the woman has not defiled herself and is clean, then she shall be immune and be able to conceive children. 29 This is the law in cases of jealousy, when a wife, while under her husband’s authority, goes astray and defiles herself, 30 or when a spirit of jealousy comes on a man and he is jealous of his wife; then he shall set the woman before the LORD, and the priest shall apply this entire law to her. 31 The man shall be free from iniquity, but the woman shall bear her iniquity."
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Anisahoni
Isn't that all a disgusting example of misogyny? That very Lord slaughtered lots and lots of babies, pregnant women throughout the Bible. That Lord/God was like the Taliban. Same general geographical location as Mesopetamia.
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Paul Seldes
it is great if you want to live your life based on your interpretation of Christian values. Those may not be the same as my spiritual values. So whose values are right? Imposing one's faith on another is exactly what our faiths tell us not to do.
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Pastor George Day
Paul Seldes, read Matthew 28. It is called the Great Commission.
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Jonathan Block
This group may be misinterpreting the passage. The original hebrew means "the child comes forth", NOT miscarriage. It implies a premature birth of the fetus. If no injury to mother or baby then only a fine. However, IF there is harm to the mother or baby then a life for a life implying if the injury kills the fetus then a life for a life is necessary. This topic is hotly debated in all religious circles, and is NOT clear cut as a meaning to support abortion. A woman has a right to her body as does anyone else, but when another life is at stake, then that changes the rules. As for the Supreme Court...they were right. The right to privacy means the government has NO business knowing or interfering with a woman ability to get an abortion, but it does not give a right to obtain one. It merely means the federal government has to stay out of it, as should the states. Simply said, it's no ones business, government or otherwise if a woman wants to or has an abortion, except if the fetus is viable (after 22 weeks), then it's a potentially separate life and that changes things.
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Anisahoni
The easiest solution to all this gnashing of teeth about a woman's right to chose health care procedures is to mandate vasectomy for all males over 13. Equal protection for all. This is the only way for men to control their sperm and control their own bodies. Condums break, hormones are dangerous and implants are even more dangrous as they can cause perforated uterusus. If you are all for using some lame excuse about being "pro life" than be pro life and be willing to be held accountable and control impregnation. Not rocket science. Keep your theology off my biology. Easy peasy.
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Herbert Ray Slone
Regardless of one’s religion, I don’t believe that many people believe that abortion is ever an act to be taken lightly. That said, I believe that there are instances such as rape, incest, mothers health/life at risk, fetus is medically not viable, and maybe others, where abortion is the best of bad choices. It seems that the FL law does not go far enough in that regard.
I also believe that abortion should not be a routinely utilized form of birth control. Of course a women should have control of her body. So, women and men should. take steps to guard against pregnancy. Use any of the many readily available forms of contraception. Many forms are initiated by the woman, but the man can also ask if she has taken those steps, and use a condom to initiate his own precaution. Men and women should discuss this and help insure that an unwanted pregnancy doesn’t happen.
However, all that said, accidents will happen. Contraception may not work. Or, in a moment of passion contraception may be omitted. In those cases, an unwanted pregnancy can easily be identified before 15 weeks and an abortion can be completed.
We can argue endlessly about when life begins. Drawing any timeline seems arbitrary when only God is the true authority. I’m not going to argue what God’s line is. I just think humanity/society must be realistic as I’ve outlined above. Allow abortions in the situations I outlined. In the case of an abortion being desired, allow it before 15 weeks.
I don’t believe that many people believe that abortion is a desirable act. But it is sometimes a necessary act. So let’s set realistic guidelines as outlined in this essay, guidelines that recognize the concerns of both extremes, and make the best of a necessary but undesirable choice.
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Anisahoni
Where do you get the notion that abortion is used as a birth control method? Sheer nonsense. You have no facts to back up your claim and seem willing to blame women for men's refusal to control their sperm. All males should be mandated to get vasectomies and then they won't have to worry about abortion. Vasectomy is the only safe and effective contraptive method.
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Herbert Ray Slone
Please read my comment carefully. I place equal responsibility on men and women. I also state that the best way to not have an unwanted pregnancy is to not get pregnant. Rather than get pregnant and then terminate with an abortion. I also state that there are times when none of the above works. In that case decide and abort prior to 15 weeks. That seems to me to be a reasonable compromise to a very polarized and difficult issue. Please read my comment carefully.
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Anisahoni
Yes I agree that men should get fixed, have vasectomies then there won't be unplanned, unwanted pregnancies.
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Paul Edward Nunis
That sounds better in a world where no one is forcibly impregnated and pregnancies are easily detected early enough to actually meet legalistic 15 (or 6) week deadlines. Sadly, the real world isn't that ideal.
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Pastor George Day
Herbert Ray Slone, abortion equal murder. Murder is never good and never a necessity. The only case I would agree with you as being a serious dilemma is when the mother's life is at risk. But even there is still a choice between giving up your own life or the life of your child. Period.
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Harle Lauren Vogel
Our Constitution specifies separation of church and state. Anything that infringes on this should be illegal. Any premise in our laws that refers to or interprets a law based on the Bible should be illegal. A much better interpretation of values would be that an action by another that does not specifically involve myself should be of not concern to me. I answer to God for my actions and not those of my neighbors.
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Kevin Joseph Kervick
In speaking with conservative Jews they are frustrated by their pro-abortion Jewish neighbors who appear to be pro-abortion because they want to be cooler than the Catholics. Because of improved technology, a baby can survive very early in the gestation period and mothers are therefore seldom at risk. Thus the Jewish exception can be taken off the table.
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Anisahoni
No, not at all. Jewish women know their rights under Jewish law. Jewish women's lives, both physical and mental, are protected from misogyny. Life begins at First Breath. The life of the woman take a prioity over a fetus. There are 3 main branches of Judaism, you refer to only one. It's not about being cool either, so don't diminish sacred beliefs. The National Council of Jewish women are more knowledgeable than you.
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Coleman Wallace
If you engaging and trusting a system of oppression then do not expect change. This system is double talk, double minded, therefore will never have a singular purpose other than serving itself and making it all up as they go along.
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NLilly
In all due respect unto the sacredness of life and the gift of the womb, it would have been a good thing to know that such an awful, painful, ugly deed called abortion, would have never existed!
also, in touching on the Scripture in Exodus 21: 22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
I feel that Exodus 21: 22-23 has been misinterpreted in that article.
And concerning the woman with child, that her fruit (unborn baby) departs from her (a miscarriage) the guilty party shall be punished at the request of her husband unto the judges. The father has a lot of say so, concerning his pregnant wife! And we see, if mischief followed, then thou shalt give life for life! AMEN! Therefore, the unborn fetus is considered a human being with a LIFE! AMEN! That's a beautiful Interpretation in the Word of GOD; and of how precious Life is, even in the early stages, in a mother's womb!
May GOD ALMIGHTY continue to protect the lives of unborn babies, just like HE Ordained for each one of Our lives to have been protected, during our mother's pregnancy. AMEN! GOD Bless. ♥ ♥
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James Riggle-Johnson
What happens after that unwanted child is born? Think of that precious life being hated by it's mother for the circumstances that brought it into the world. Are YOU or the people passing this law going to care for that child? Are you going to abopt the child born from rape? It seems a lot of effort in made on behalf of the unborn child but not one thought as to how that child lives after their birth.
I say file a law suit against the government for child support. Force them to take the child, provide parenting, health care, housing for the rest of that childs life, because the mother didn't want the child. Nobody gives a damn about what the child is going to live with. It's sickening to hear about the childs rights and then you abanoned the kid when it needs help the most.
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Minister Ronda
I adopted one that the family wanted to abort because of the manner he was conceived.. He is special needs, loves God, not easy to care for and we never relied on government assistance ever. He is 33 now and we still care for him. I cant imagine him being aborted. I know many who have adopted babies that the mother considered aborting. The bill in Florida allows for abortions up to 15 weeks. There are pills that can be given after rape or incest that would eliminate the need for an abortion.
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Pastor George Day
Ronda K. Kontak, thank you for your comment. Beautiful story! God bless you child! Unfortunately, the morning after pill is abortifacient, so I would not include it as a possibility.
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Lumina
I agree
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Pastor George Day
James C Riggle, the child can be offered up for adoption. Your rambling is an absolute waste of breath!
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JaZe
God never wrote any books nor started any religion, it is all manmade. By imposing one religion all other religions are insulted and demeaned. Are we going to copy the Taliban and rule a whole country by religion? This country was started by people escaping persecution for holding different religious views. Why return to the dark ages?
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Deborah
We're already back there.
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Ellen Adams
That may be he Christian interpretation. The Torah is the original. To read it, find a Jewish person, find someone who can read Hebrew.
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Pastor George Day
Ellen Adams, I have the interlinear. That is the correct interpretation. It just says what it says. Even a child would get it.
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Minister Ronda
NLilly, AMEN
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Nicholas J Page
No abortion is not a religious right at all. It is a woman's body no,one else's. She can decide what to do and what not to do.Can't people just mind their own business. It has nothing to do with them This is a personal matter the woman is in charge of her future and her body.People should respect her and give her all the privacy she needs and wants and not let the public in.
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al Jacoby
perfectly said!!!!
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Rev. B
That is lawmakers removing or restricting established rights it is not about what is best for the people, it is about controlling the people. Christians have shown themselves to be the biggest control freaks on the planet.
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Lumina
Those that want to kill babies should take precautions in not getting pregnant. Then they do not need to get abortion. Is not a game is life's that you are murdering.
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Anisahoni
I agree. Men should control their sperm by getting vassectomies. Then they don't have to worry about a women's health care decisions. Men have gotten away with being irresponsible for too long.
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Anisahoni
100%. Plus the god of the bible killed babies, slaughtered pregnant women and killed lots of children. That god was not pro life by any means. Unfortunately, most so called Christians don't even bother to study their holy book and spin their false ideologies.
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Anisahoni
100%. Plus the god of the bible killed babies, slaughtered pregnant women and killed lots of children. That god was not pro life by any means. Unfortunately, most so called Christians don't even bother to study their holy book and spin their false ideologies.
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Pastor George Day
Nicholas J Page, yes. Let us give them the privacy to murder their own babies. Genuinely nice, clearly pagan.
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Ann
This Pagan does not believe in killing babies.
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Catherine Christina Deslippe
As a christian I believe that God loves us and protects us the best he can. As far as using a faith as a way of using control of what is right or what is wrong, especially when it comes to the bodies of women. I have a completely different intake on that. I feel that after being a victim of sexual abuse (rape), I personally would never have been able to carry a unborn child from a violent act of crime. I know that in my heart, as I was not the only one who was raped at that time.
One victim had to have an abortion. Only in the beginning but still imagaine carry to term a child of a viscious and terrible crime. God would not want a woman to suffer after suffering from the hands of a terrible relative.
When it comes to the body of a woman, the right to choose what is best for them through a medical advisor is so important. I feel both medically and mentally.
Why has faith had to come into such a delicate matter. I do not challenge the Lord, I read the bible. I pray to the Lord and through him he will guide me in the dirrection I need to go.
I am not God, I will not ever use religion for my own needs. Hate has spun out of control through faith. For that this is not the faith of the Lord. Hate, put Jesus on a cross to die for our sins.
Thank you for letting me share.
Catherine Deslippe
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Kevin Joseph Kervick
That is an extremely small proportion of women. Most abortions are birth control for irresponsible, mostly poor women.
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Anisahoni
Wow, you are such a woman hater. If you men did your duty controlling your sperm by getting a vasectomy, you wouldn't have to worry. Besides, the idea that poor women resort to abortion as a birth control method is disgusting. You have no facts to support his claim. Until you can get pregnant you'd best sit down, go get a vasectomy and encourage all your male friends and family members to get fixed.
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Pastor George Day
Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, you really want to see humans extinguished, don't you?
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Anisahoni
Wow, you are such a woman hater. If you men did your duty controlling your sperm by getting a vasectomy, you wouldn't have to worry. Besides, the idea that poor women resort to abortion as a birth control method is disgusting. You have no facts to support his claim. Until you can get pregnant you'd best sit down, go get a vasectomy and encourage all your male friends and family members to get fixed.
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Pastor George Day
Catherine Christina Deslippe, then you are saying that you want to give the child the death penalty for the crime of their father, right?
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John P Maher
YOUR MIND, YOUR BODY, YOUR THOUGHTs, YOUR ACTIONs, ARE YOUR RIGHTs UNTIL WHAT POINT ???
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Lumina
Really than why is everyone blind and following all of the dumb rules of the government. You are all being controlled by wearing stupid diapers on your faces. Have faith the Lord created everyone WAKE UP
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Pastor George Day
John P Maher, why do you keep shouting? Are you deaf? Or just trying to assert your authority?
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Daniel Gray
Um sorry but absolutely not. For this jewish lawsuit to actually be taken seriously they would have to show that abortion has been part of their religion all along as just one Rabbi saying it wont work
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
You're not a free American, if you're not in control of your own body.
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David Archer
What about the baby's body?
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al Jacoby
not born no a person!!!!
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Pastor George Day
al Jacoby, orthodox science disagrees with you. Scroll up.
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Anisahoni
It's not a baby. Maybe you will best be served by learning about embryonic and fetal development. Also, you are in a better postion to support and educate men on getting vasectomy, which is the most effective and SAFE contraception. Instead of obsessing about women bodies, and our choices, focus on how you and other men can be responsible for controlling your sperm.
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Lumina
So that means a idiot woman can get pregnant 5x and have 5x abortions. That is an idiot and does not care for human beings, just keep murdering.
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Anisahoni
Wow you are a true woman hater. What woman do you know who has had 5 abortions. Stop lying and schedule your vasectomy..
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James Riggle-Johnson
This is not a Christian country and Christian have no right to force their religion on everyone. I hope this lawsuit wins. If not, the court will decide Christianity is the law of the land.
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Joseph S Worley
Well Said. No religion should have the right to dictate what people do with their own bodies. I for one do not want to live in a Theocracy.
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Pastor George Day
Joseph S Worley, when your body is empty, I am in full agreement. If there is a life in there, it is no longer your body only.
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Joseph SCott Queen
So, you don't want Christians to push their religion on you but, it's ok for you to push your religion on everyone else? The religion of abortion, everyone must accept it. Kill those babies. It takes two different DNAs to have a child. The mom's and the father's, so the child in her womb isn't her body.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Vasectomy. Vecestomies are reversable. Every man should be forced to have a vasectomy until they prove they are both financially and emotionally mature enough to have a child. Then it can be reversed, and they can get whoever they want pregnant.
Abstain? That obviously hasn't worked, and it's WAY past time women's rights keep getting stepped on.
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Pastor George Day
James C Riggle, where did you get the information that vasectomy is reversible? Just asking...
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James Riggle-Johnson
Pastor Day, here is a link to Stanford Medical talking about the subject. They have a high success rate the sooner you have the procedure done… approximately 3 – 4 years after the vasectomy, but can still be effective after that; however, the success rate decreases the longer you wait. Here’s the link.
https://stanfordhealthcare.org/medical-treatments/v/vasectomy-reversal.html
Jim
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Pastor George Day
Thank you, Jim. I am always learning :-)
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Anisahoni
Life begins at First Breath. If you are so concerned start a movement to have men become responsible and get vasectomies.
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Pastor George Day
Dear Ms. Broken Record, you ought to say rather: my opinion is that.... Science says life begins at conception. Life begins at fertilization with the embryo's conception. "Development of the embryo begins at Stage 1 when sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together, they form a zygote." "Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception).” Do your research!
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Anisahoni
Take your ignorant mansplaining and name calling elsewhere. You have no power.
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Ann
But he's not worng.
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Anisahoni
Have you gotten your vasectomy yet? Until you do, best to be quiet. You don;'t care about children, so stop pretending. By the way, yiour Bible has many tales of your God killing lots of babies, pregnant women and children. Your god wasn't "pro life."
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Pastor George Day
Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, my God gave his life for me. What did your god do for you?
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Joseph Keenan
You may need to look up the definition of the word "religion". Please show me the ceremonies and supernatural elements of this medical procedure.
What you are doing is known as projection. That means you are trying to pass your own inadequacies on others. You obviously DO NOT know the difference between being a slave to dogma and being able to choose your own path without some con man preacher taking your money telling you what you should do.
So you try to slur secularism by calling any aspect of it a religion. So somewhere deep down you know that religion is harmful.
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Joseph SCott Queen
Religion; means return to bandage. Also means to worship in bondage. Sounds to me you guys worship abortions and the murder of an innocent soul.
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Joseph SCott Queen
That is return to bondage. Re to return ligion bondage. Return to bondage.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Definition of religion 1: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices 2a(1): the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2): commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance 2b: the state of a religious a nun in her 20th year of religion 3: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith 4 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
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Pastor George Day
Here's our church's definition of religion:
https://www.themonastery.org/guide-to-divinity
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Pastor George Day
Joseph Keenan, you might just be wrong. The Satanic Temple claim abortion as their religious practice.
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Joseph Keenan
You may need to look up the definition of the word "religion". Please show me the ceremonies and supernatural elements of this medical procedure.
What you are doing is known as projection. That means you are trying to pass your own inadequacies on others. You obviously DO NOT know the difference between being a slave to dogma and being able to choose your own path without some con man preacher taking your money telling you what you should do.
So you try to slur secularism by calling any aspect of it a religion. So somewhere deep down you know that religion is harmful.
You're anti-Semitic comments are noted as well.
You're also showing that you have never read the bible. There is a no extra penalty of killing a pregnant woman (who according to scripture is lower than a slave). You're forgetting that the scriptures also says that a baby is not alive till it takes it's first breath, You forget about going to the priests with a wife/concubine/slave who you think has cheated on you. Making a potion from the dirt of the temple floor and 7 herbs and spices the women will be forced to drink it. If she cheated on her owner (remember the bible says women are property not actualized human beings) she will abort the fetus and her woman parts will wither....
.... That pertty much says your god has an active hand in abortions.
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Joseph SCott Queen
As a fact what you are posting is not in scripture Joseph, look all those things you said up. I have. It's a lie from people that think there is no God and know neither the word or the God of the word.
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James Riggle-Johnson
God did not write any of what you are reading. That was man. If you believe the stories, God only wrote the ten commandments, and that isn't fact.
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Pastor George Day
Joseph Keenan, as I have previously indicated, the Old Testament is a record of accomplishment of reducing violence in already violent cultures. If you are shocked at the things you read in the Bible, do research on the pagan practices of the ancient Canaanites, for instance. And you will see that those who claim that paganism predates Judeo-Christianity would do better to drop such claims.... not a nice scenario at all!
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Rev Ned
Sad, bigly sad.
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Rev Ned
Comment removed by user.
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Pastor George Day
James C Riggle, abortion is not a religious issue. Many scientists have affirmed that life begins at conception.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Many “pro life Christians pretending to be scientists” have confirmed life begins at conception, Mr. Day. I fixed that for you. Your pro life lot are just very loud believers of nonsense.
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Pastor George Day
Robert James Ruhnke, you rant as much as you like. What happened to Roe vs Wade? Bingo!
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Robert James Ruhnke
Nothing that can’t be redone in that case. You can take your veiled threats and shove them right back where they came from. The religious right cronies on the Supreme Court should be ousted for clearly not being unbiased. The religious reich, a very vocal minority, need also be ousted from their places of power. They clearly violate the first amendment daily. Rant? I don’t think so. Your so caught up in your arrogant condescension, you’ve forgotten how to debate. Declaring yourself some kind of biblical scholar doesn’t make you one. Telling other people to research the Bible more doesn’t make you one. Sharing actual facts, which you haven’t done so far, would be a start, Mr. Day.
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Michael Hinkle
Today's Christians after Jesus rose from the dead, we all live in the New Covenant not the Old Covenant. Jews do not believe Jesus has come to Earth yet. Jews still waiting the day Jesus come and prove to the Jews that Jesus is the Messiah the Son of God. Jews are still blind. If the Jews just accept the facts that Jesus came and rose from the dwad and havs paid ransim for all sins of the world. Jesus has healed many thousands of peoples and has preformed awesome miracles throuout the land. Jews cannot accept the trith. First sign of species (babies) starts at the time weaving (fetus) begins to form. Creation of God's work and everything made to His own (body form). What and where and how was it made! By God Himself in a mother's belly (womb). Think about it and read anout it. It's all in the Bible of God's Word and Truth.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Your post probably got flagged for moderation and wasn’t posted immediately. And attempting to post it again and again when you didn’t see it? Well, you can see what that does. The religiously delusional thoughts superstitions expressed in your post are sufficiently annoying in and of themselves. Maybe consider deleting the extra copies? Reading another book would be a good idea, too. ‘The God Delusion’ would be a great start.
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Robert James Ruhnke
There was no Jesus. He was just another Roman invention. Y’all are the ones who are blind and being conned and brainwashed. 🤷🏻♂️ There was just Yesh of Galilee who spoke a great message and spoke against religious nuts like you. Please do go away.
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Lumina
You are the blind one I feel sorry for your believes. Jesus lives and he is King of Kings Lord of Lords
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Robert James Ruhnke
Beliefs* please do learn to read before lecturing me on what is Truth, Lumina. Your religious view means nothing but opinion to me. Your god is your god, my gods are my gods. Save your pity for yourself, fanatic.
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Pastor George Day
Robert James Ruhnke, what makes you so angry? Is it hurt pride or trauma?
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Robert James Ruhnke
What makes you so manipulative and self righteous ? Are you compensating for mommy issues or daddy issues? My guess is that it’s both.
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Anisahoni
Anti Semitic comments do not belong here. "Jews are blind...Jews are still waiting" is disgusting ignorance about Judaism. Your Lord and Savior, Jesus, was an Essene Jew, as was his mother, grandparents, as was his Father-God. Your God was a Jew who brought forth his "only begotten son" right? Anti Semitic comments are an abomination and insult to your Jewish God. Let that sink in. Study your holy book
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Pastor George Day
Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, we3ll done! Yes, you are right: Jesus' extended family were Jews. They were also Kohanim (priests), though his father lived a simple life as a carpenter. You have done your homework! Good sister!
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Joy
Michael your comments are very anti-Semitic.
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Michael Hinkle
Today's Christians after Jesus rose from the dead, we all live in the New Covenant not the Old Covenant. Jews do not believe Jesus has come to Earth yet. Jews still waiting the day Jesus come and prove to the Jews that Jesus is the Messiah the Son of God. Jews are still blind. If the Jews just accept the facts that Jesus came and rose from the dwad and havs paid ransim for all sins of the world. Jesus has healed many thousands of peoples and has preformed awesome miracles throuout the land. Jews cannot accept the trith. First sign of species (babies) starts at the time weaving (fetus) begins to form. Creation of God's work and everything made to His own (body form). What and where and how was it made! By God Himself in a mother's belly (womb). Think about it and read anout it. It's all in the Bible of God's Word and Truth.
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Michael Hinkle
Today's Christians after Jesus rose from the dead, we all live in the New Covenant not the Old Covenant. Jews do not believe Jesus has come to Earth yet. Jews still waiting the day Jesus come and prove to the Jews that Jesus is the Messiah the Son of God. Jews are still blind. If the Jews just accept the facts that Jesus came and rose from the dwad and havs paid ransim for all sins of the world. Jesus has healed many thousands of peoples and has preformed awesome miracles throuout the land. Jews cannot accept the trith. First sign of species (babies) starts at the time weaving (fetus) begins to form. Creation of God's work and everything made to His own (body form). What and where and how was it made! By God Himself in a mother's belly (womb). Think about it and read anout it. It's all in the Bible of God's Word and Truth.
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Michael Hinkle
Today's Christians after Jesus rose from the dead, we all live in the New Covenant not the Old Covenant. Jews do not believe Jesus has come to Earth yet. Jews still waiting the day Jesus come and prove to the Jews that Jesus is the Messiah the Son of God. Jews are still blind. If the Jews just accept the facts that Jesus came and rose from the dwad and havs paid ransim for all sins of the world. Jesus has healed many thousands of peoples and has preformed awesome miracles throuout the land. Jews cannot accept the trith. First sign of species (babies) starts at the time weaving (fetus) begins to form. Creation of God's work and everything made to His own (body form). What and where and how was it made! By God Himself in a mother's belly (womb). Think about it and read anout it. It's all in the Bible of God's Word and Truth.
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
In Christian mythology, the Christian God arranged to have only one son, so “he” could arrange to have such a son, commit suicide, so that “he” (The Christian God) could grant eternal life, to everyone who professed to believe that the Christian God’s only son killed himself — but only for two days.
For Christians unwilling to conclude that Jesus committed suicide for two days — anyone who allows himself to be tortured to death — is committing suicide — which is called altruistic suicide, the type of suicide committed by terrorists, so that they can save other members of their tribe from another mythological religion or other.
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Michael Hinkle
Today's Christians after Jesus rose from the dead, we all live in the New Covenant not the Old Covenant. Jews do not believe Jesus has come to Earth yet. Jews still waiting the day Jesus come and prove to the Jews that Jesus is the Messiah the Son of God. Jews are still blind. If the Jews just accept the facts that Jesus came and rose from the dwad and havs paid ransim for all sins of the world. Jesus has healed many thousands of peoples and has preformed awesome miracles throuout the land. Jews cannot accept the trith. First sign of species (babies) starts at the time weaving (fetus) begins to form. Creation of God's work and everything made to His own (body form). What and where and how was it made! By God Himself in a mother's belly (womb). Think about it and read anout it. It's all in the Bible of God's Word and Truth.
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Donald Richard Starns
“Jesus” was a brilliant marketing scheme. Consider how many promoters of the Holy Product have prospered greatly, with very little effort. It’s been really good for those in the Christian business community.
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Lumina
You will be judge
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Pastor George Day
Donald Richard Starns, Jesus began a movement, but Constantine turned into an empire. Then came the Pilgrim Fathers, and the American war of independence... so Christianity became a business! LOL
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Michael Hinkle
Today's Christians after Jesus rose from the dead, we all live in the New Covenant not the Old Covenant. Jews do not believe Jesus has come to Earth yet. Jews still waiting the day Jesus come and prove to the Jews that Jesus is the Messiah the Son of God. Jews are still blind. If the Jews just accept the facts that Jesus came and rose from the dwad and havs paid ransim for all sins of the world. Jesus has healed many thousands of peoples and has preformed awesome miracles throuout the land. Jews cannot accept the trith. First sign of species (babies) starts at the time weaving (fetus) begins to form. Creation of God's work and everything made to His own (body form). What and where and how was it made! By God Himself in a mother's belly (womb). Think about it and read anout it. It's all in the Bible of God's Word and Truth.
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James Riggle-Johnson
So you're say God himself makes the baby in the mothers womb? So, you are saying God is the Sperm? God, spews from a man. I guess this makes man great than women since God comes directly out of man.
Do you hear what you're saying? Christians have NO RIGHT to tell everyone how to live. You just proved it by your ranting and interpretaion of God. God is sperm. You may not meant to imply that, but it's what you said. The bible was written by man, not God. Not even Jesus wrote one word that appears in the bible. It was written by frustrated old men.
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John P Maher
Mr. J C RIGGLE, BRAVO and WHATEVER, A TRULY GREAT BLOG, THANK YOU !
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Pastor George Day
James C Riggle, where does life come from?
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Rev Deborah Dunkle (Raven Wolf Song)
Michael, you are trying to force Your beliefs on someone else.. That is not your right. God is God no matter what name or gender for that matter you give. As to Jesus it is everyone's right to believe or not. You seem very sure he lived. But how can you say for certain or attribute belief to any particular text. The book was written hundreds of years after his death. In contrast Jewish scrolls go back a long way prior. And he isn't mentioned in any scroll or tablet for quite awhile after his death. I'm not saying your beliefs are invalid or that belief hasn't healed. Just keep in mind a story cannot pass around a room of fifty people and remain unchanged. Also remember that King James edited the new testament and had it written to his liking. Did he include everything that was known? Did he change meanings? Could he have even taken a prophet and named him messiah? Today many interpretations of the language have surfaced that include different interpretations. I don't know what is real I take a lot on faith. So do you. Your understanding is your own. Please remember the Jewish people have every right to have their beliefs and laws.
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Lionheart
James reply is quite right Michael. Not only are Jews blind, it appears that so are you. You say “If the Jews accept the facts that Jesus came and rose from the dead….” There are no demonstrable facts to support that claim Michael. In fact, there are very few facts that Jesus was a real person. There are also no demonstrable facts that any of the earths gods are real….even yours.
🦁❤️
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Lumina
I agree
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Pastor George Day
Michael Hinkle, some Jews believe in Yeshua. They are called Messianic Jews. In my church, we have a Messianic Jewish WhatsApp synagogue https://theologyofthebody.webador.co.uk/messianic-jewish-bible-studies
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Michael Hinkle
Today's Christians after Jesus rose from the dead, we all live in the New Covenant not the Old Covenant. Jews do not believe Jesus has come to Earth yet. Jews still waiting the day Jesus come and prove to the Jews that Jesus is the Messiah the Son of God. Jews are still blind. If the Jews just accept the facts that Jesus came and rose from the dwad and havs paid ransim for all sins of the world. Jesus has healed many thousands of peoples and has preformed awesome miracles throuout the land. Jews cannot accept the trith. First sign of species (babies) starts at the time weaving (fetus) begins to form. Creation of God's work and everything made to His own (body form). What and where and how was it made! By God Himself in a mother's belly (womb). Think about it and read anout it. It's all in the Bible of God's Word and Truth.
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JaZe
Actually, no, my dear. No one knows for certain when the soul connects with the fetus, it is all guess work. Just because an egg gets fertilized does not mean God presses a button and a soul pops out and goes into that egg. Fertilized eggs can pass out of the body naturally without anyone ever being aware of it.
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Lumina
You are wrong
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Rev Sir Nathan
The Jews are completely out of context in how they attribute their abortion laws to Exodus 21:22-23. The passage must be read in context starting with verse 21. There is no possible way to interpret the passage to mean that a fetus is not a person.
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Robert James Ruhnke
You’re a Christian, mind your own religious cult, y’all perverted it from the original anyway. An if you’re Protestant y really don’t know your ass from your elbow.
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David Cox
You don't even understand nothing a six year understands more than you. Until you get yourself out of the way you will never understand nothing.
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Pastor George Day
Robert James Ruhnke, I am a Protestant, and you are TOTALLY IGNORANT of Scripture exegesis. Just mind your own religious nonsense yourself.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Your idea of scripture Exegesis is nothing more than low carb political propaganda, Mr. Day. I grew up Lutheran, the first Protestants. Spare your self righteous indignation. I have actual historical knowledge on my side, not bs political leanings and misinterpreted views of scripture. Thank you. In short. You first.
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Pastor George Day
Robert James Ruhnke, you are wrong again. The first 'Protestants' were the Lollards, Moravians, Waldensians and a few others preceding the advent of the press, not to mention the Celtic Christians before they were Romanized. As for the Lutherans, they were not first. Zwingli was a contemporary of Luther who never claimed affiliation with him. Calvin and the Anabaptists followed him making two different strands: the Reformed and the Radical. Talking about Magisterial Reformation, as opposed to the Radical and the Third Awakening, we also refer to Lutherans, Calvinists/Reformed (aka Huguenots or Presbyterians) and Anglicans. So, nope.... Your knowledge seems rather limited again. Bingo!
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Ellen Adams
Unless you read the original, Hebrew.
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Anisahoni
If you aren't Jewish, haven't attended Hebrew School or raised Jewish, you are just making stuff up to suit your antisemitic agenda. Your God slaightered many babies, pregnant women and young children.Time to start reading your Holy Book and get educated on the facts presented in those tales. Life begins at First Breath. Read and study.
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Joy
Catherine I would truly love to meet you one day!
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Pastor George Day
Yes, join the club of broken records.... learn how to spell right before telling biblical scholars to get an education. You obviously need to learn how to spell, let alone read!
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Robert James Ruhnke
Actually get an education, Mr. Day. One that’s not riddled with confirmation bias and blind hypocrisy. Study actual history and not something that’s just IBLP propaganda
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Pastor George Day
Robert James Ruhnke, I do! I am in ongoing formation at the non-accredited Christian History Institute. I also study at two other accredited institutes, beside our training center here. So, yes, I am educating myself. My question to you is: are you? Bingo!
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Robert James Ruhnke
I graduated from KSU, an accredited institution, with a Bachelors of Science in Interdisciplinary Social Science, meaning I studied History, Sociology, Anthropology, Psychology, Philosophy, and a little bit of Religion. I also studied Biology and Public Health. An I still read texts on the new findings of Humanity’s past when I can. I currently started reading a book on Nomads and Nomadic Cultures. There are thousands of other and better world views than your white washed conservative Christian ones. Try living for once and remove your ball gag and blinders.
Most who go to those Christian schools waste their money when Encyclopedia Brittanica would accurately suffice. Training Center? So you admit to being an indoctrinated shill. Good for you, I guess.
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Lisa Rose Morton
I don't care what I any religion says about abortion. The job of the State and Federal governments are to keep laws separate from religion. That is how our democracy was formed and how it should stay. Perhaps the law about abortion should be decided by a vote of the Americans
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Voting can be extremely capricious. And it also means the majority could legislate unconstitutional laws upon the minority.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry but it is a Christian country and was founded on Christian ideals.
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Donald Richard Starns
Nope. Wrong again, unless you mean Deism, which is hardly Christianity. “God” didn’t give us anything; we (you know, “We, the People”) had to work for everything. Our slaves had to help, but that’s another story.
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Daniel Gray
Nope wrong again, there were only TWO diests in the founding fathers. If you would have bothered to do your homework you would know this by their own papers.
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Lumina
God created us. If you do not believe this good luck. God is in charge not human beings
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Rev. B
From the first amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." So, they were just blatantly lying? In the Constitution? So you are saying that any amendment you don't personally believe in is in the Constitution as a joke? Let someone deprogram you or just drink the Kool-aid already.
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Ed Selby
Which "Christian ideals"?
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Joseph SCott Queen
Thou shall not kill is one
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Anisahoni
The God of your Bible murdered babies, pregnant women and lots of children. Your God was not " pro-life." Study hard.
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Lumina
He killed the bad root, read your bible and do your homework.
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Anisahoni
You obviously have not studied the holy book. "Bad root" what does that even mean. Go study and read from cover to cover. Over 60 passages. Geesh, just making stuff up.
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Pastor George Day
Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, I am going to keep a mild comment now, but you keep saying the same line without any foundation. How about some reciprocal respect?
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Daniel Gray
No, the proper translation is thou shall not commit murder.
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Daniel Gray
Same ideals added to the Laws from the Cherokee that made up the constitution. Failed history did you?
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Robert James Ruhnke
Daniel Gray, you constantly show off that you know nothing. Whilst the founders did take their principles from Native cultures. An the European enlightenment was also influenced by the Indigenous Americans. Specifically The Haudenosaunee more commonly known as the Iraquois, whilst the Cherokee people existed before the forming of the US. The Cherokee Nation hadn’t officially formed till 1827. Again you’re just a white guy playing at native, The Cherokee weren’t Christians until it was forced on them by settlers. The constitution was formed with secular ideals in mind. Many of the founders loathed religion. Your cherry picked view of history reeks of ignorance and blind nationalism. 🤷🏻♂️
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Anisahoni
You are so right. He is what we Cherokee people call a wannabe-a white person claiming to be one of us but demonstrates utter ignorance of who we are. I have called him out before and he still claims to be Cherokee. If he was truly a member of our nation, he would have learned about the Iroquois Great Law of Peace as a child. We were once connected with the Haudenosaunee when they were 5 nations. We are the only nation in the southeast speaking an Iroquoian language. Thanks for your comment. Much appreciated.
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Daniel Gray
Really Cathy? how can you say "WE" when you are not listed anywhere in the cherokee records nor are you listed at the BIA. Nice try for your lie but you just got shamed. Guess you are like Warren
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Anisahoni
Oh stop lying. Nice try. I do not have to give you my Tribal ID number. Go away wannabe.
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Pastor George Day
Well said, Catherine Ohrin-Greipp! Bingo :-)
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Daniel Gray
Dont need to, if you are as you claim then you WILL be listed on the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and you are not. Nice try you warren wanna be.
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Pastor George Day
Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, I need to apologize for this one. I will admit I do not much about Indian nations. We could suggest an article to debate for our monastery here :-)
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Pastor George Day
Robert James Ruhnke, I am a student of Church History, and your description is news to me.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Pastor Day, you’re a student of confirmation bias, black and white logical fallacies, and things that bolster your own ego. You don’t study actual history, but cherry picked versions of history that push a dominionist agenda on the rest of humanity. An even if the true account is front of you, you call it devilry and balk at it’s existence.
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Pastor George Day
Robert James Ruhnke, what makes you so angry? Is it trauma or hurt pride?
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Robert James Ruhnke
Mr. Day, I understand your lot think they have monopoly on anger, I assure you, I was angry explaining how I see through your superficial naivety and see through the false narratives you cling to. Your attempt at trying to make me seem mentally unstable makes you a gaslighting and manipulative individual. Like most of Christ’s hypocrites.
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Pastor George Day
Robert James Ruhnke, I have not said a word! I simply asked you a question :-)
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Anisahoni
Sorry, you failed history. The framers of the US Constitution relied on the Iroquois Great Law of Peace as a foundation. My Cherokee nation in the SE had nothing to do with developing the US Constitution. The Iroquois Great Law of Peace, as recommended by Deganawidah, established bodies/councils much like our Senate and House, except the framers did not like the role of Clan Mothers as equal partners in decision making. The framers excluded women from decision making because they considered women to be chattel, with no rights to property, even their children. Please study more.
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Robert James Ruhnke
I’ve been studying pre colonial history the last few years. Natives had vibrant wonderful cultures that socially surpassed European standards. I’ve long admired their spiritual views, mine, mirror theres. I try not to appropriate, but Norse Heathens and Natives have many more commonalities than they don’t.
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David John Pietras
I'm not calling the leaders of this country a liar. Bbbuuuttt... if you believe that America is a Christian country then you need to read the Treaty of Tripoli article 11.
One of the most important parts of the Treaty of Tripoli has very little to do with the treaty's outcome. Article 11 of the treaty states:
'As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries
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Lumina
I believe in the bible it has been around for centuries. You believe in whatever you want. GOD will judge you.
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Philenda L. Daniel
The deeply disturbing lack of faith in the Eternalness of Life is saddening, maddening, and shows how little faith there truly is in the Word. Views on abortion are views that have been argued in vain for what seems to be an Eternity.
Abortion is NOT holy or unholy. The lack of faith in the Eternalness of Life is unholy.
Jesus taught about Eternal Life and that the Father can be found within. He taught that all are… as he is…a child of The Father. ALL are created by God. Again, the good, the bad, the ugly…all there was for God to create, the only material, was God which is Life.Even Lucifer was created by God because all things are made from God. Everything, All, The Entirety. What we do with it. How we perceive it. What we believe about it. Is our interpretation not God’s.
God creates to create without judgement. There are so many twisted interpretations of religions and what they meant or mean. I fully understand why secularism is out pacing authoritarian style religions/belief systems. Daring to look at things with different eyes has gotten some…punished in various ways; excommunicated, beaten, physically killed and worse.
It is truly sad how the Unquenched zealots craving for Power and Control, twist and bleed their perceptions, into that which must be kept sacred and fluid, for all points of view; anything else would be creating a God that is less than; instead of a God that encompasses ALL.
To separate anything from God would be to reduce God, and that cannot be done based on the statements of Omnipotence, Omnipresence, etc. Perhaps there is no figure sitting upon a throne. Perhaps it is Life itself. Perhaps Science is the discoverer of all the parts and pieces that make up ALL of God. Perhaps not.
Yeshua (Aramaic Bible-Jesus-Yeshua spoke Aramaic) did not die for our sins…we still sin…we still can go to proverbial hell for our sins…we can still be punished for our point of view by people who hate us just for our existing daily, by corporations for being poor, by society, by laws, and by religions…who do so with ease and regularity. This belief ‘of dying for our sins’ is a misnomer, a myth.
Yeshua died because he was a great teacher and taught by example. His final lessen, before being murdered…the ETERNALNESS of LIFE. In testimonies written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, told of those, who said he could safe himself as he saved others, and wondered why he did not. He was the Son of God…Why not? …Save yourself!
Yeshua could have saved himself; he knew he would have been forgiven; he knew his Father.
Yeshua was not selfish, he knew it was important for us to realize our immortality, and the reason he preached love and kindness, because Life is FOREVER no matter what. He knew living forever is better when it is done with love, kindness, mercy, and grace, than it is when one is being a purveyor of brutality, hate, and all the other ugliness that can be committed upon the living.
Yeshua was brutalized and died upon a cross to show that no matter how many horrible, torturous things happen to a person they DO live on. Even those who commit the acts of hate and brutality live on. This is the lessen.
The Duality of Heaven and Hell are places in our heads and hearts; where we create Love or Hate, Kindness, or Brutality. What we chose to extend to each other is what creates Heaven or Hell on Earth or anywhere we live Life.
If one believes in the Eternalness of Life. If one has faith that LIFE is FOREVER. If one believes that we are made from Life, by God which is Life, and believes we forever return to Life. Even…Even if you do not believe all those things… The abortion argument is a moot point.
Nothing should be dictated to and about…one’s own self-governance…ever. This includes by anyone individual, entity, or government. It is right and proper for any individual to stand up for themselves and have control of their choices and to be manager of their own temples (bodies).
Individuality and Free will were given and free will is the person’s own word and the consequences… they face are based in their own beliefs, choices… and as long as the individual(s) do NOT interfere with other individual(s) free will and beliefs. Then, leave them to be, as they choose to be, as it is…meant to be.
Individual - in·di·vid·u·al [ˌindəˈvij(o͞o)əl]
ADJECTIVE 1. single; separate: "Individual tiny flowers" synonyms: single · separate · discrete · independent · sole · lone · solitary · isolated 2. of or for a particular person: "the individual needs of the person" NOUN 1. a single human being as distinct from a group, class, or family: guided hikes for parties and individuals
Again, Life is ETERNAL, the abortion argument as it stands is a poor argument. It is a moot point.
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Pastor George Day
Philenda L. Daniel, this is very eloquently presented, but poor in substance. To begin with, you make statements for Christianity that cut at the very core of the kerygma: Jesus DID die for our sins, but what is disputed is if there was a universal or a limited atonement. These two theologies are called Calvinism and Arminianism. So, only in this little explanation, we see the nonsense of your eloquent statements. Please, take no offence.
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Krystina S.
That was a wonderful sermon, Ms. Daniel. Much to ponder.
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Pastor George Day
Lumina, the Bible has been around for millennia :-)!
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Daniel Gray
That has absolutely NOTHING to do with anything as it is not a part of the founding documents. But nice try in trying to inject your false beliefs
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Daniel Gray
there is no such thing as a separation of church and state, get it through your head. The Constitution was ratified in 1787, the very first mention of this myth was in 1802, fifteen years later and the only way you can add something to or remove something from the Constitution is with a constitutional amendment something that has never been put in. Secondly in Article 3 it has NEVER given the SCOTUS the right to "interpret" anything as there is nothing stopping a later version of the court from interpreting it a different way like the abortion is going now. and thirdly, stop listening to idiots. We never were a Democracy, we were and always have been a Democratic Republic.
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David Mindel
It shouldn't need to be said, but we ministers should do our best to act in ways that promote peace and harmony. This would leave out phrases such as "get it through your head" and "stop listening to idiots". Let's hope for a more collegial dialog going forward.
We're well served by our branches of government and the need for interpretation, given that wording from 250+ years ago due to changing times, thinking, and technology will require it.
Specifically, in the 1st amendment, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." The challenge is that if the exercising of one's religion goes directly against established laws or moral norms, there needs to be clarification and interpretation (rulings) for those specifics.
In the case of abortion and the religious court challenge mentioned above, subsequent court rulings and/or new legislation will determine the specifics. It's a difficult question of our time, both morally and politically. And during this time (as it has been in the past) the lives of many will be greatly affected.
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Pastor George Day
David Mindel... and the deaths of many innocent ones too!
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Charles William Randall
Sorry to say we are a Constitutional Republic. The key word is "Constitutional ", this is what gives us equal rights under the law.
In the Republic, power is in the hands of individual citizens. In a democratic system, laws are made by the majority. In the Republic system, laws are made by the elected representatives of the people. In a democracy, the will of the majority has the right to override the existing rights.
To be fair, we do use democratic systems for elections at the local and state levels, as it is the person with the majority who wins. However at the national level, the president is elected by the electoral college, and that has on a few occasions not reflected the democratic/majority vote. Confusing for sure.
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Daniel Gray
Nope sorry we are a Democratic republic and always have been, read the constitution before reposting
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Pastor George Day
All member countries of the UN are democracies. You cannot be a member otherwise. The Holy See, for instance, has no membership but only observer status because the Vatican is not a democracy.
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Daniel Gray
Really? Tell that to Russia and China and North Korea and Saudi Arabia and Jordan and Iran and a host of others that are not and never have been a Democracy. If you are going to say something like this that is very easily proved as wrong, then maybe you should not post to start with and save yourself some embarrassment
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Pastor George Day
From Google:
Is UN a democracy?
Democracy is a core value of the United Nations. The UN supports democracy by promoting human rights, development, and peace and security. In the 75 years since the UN Charter was signed, the UN has done more to support democracy around the world than any other global organization.
I guess one of us is wrong.
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Daniel Gray
yea s clearly YOU. Are you really going to try and say that Russia and China are Democracies? And remember they are on the Security Committee, and so is Jordan and that is a monarchy. Nice try Day but its clear that you dont know what you are talking about
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Matthew Rad Olivera
You need to work on your semantical arguments. Or brush up on the definition of "Democracy", of which "Democratic Republic" is one.
Educate yourself (Note the specific call out to "Roman Republic") : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy
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Joseph SCott Queen
We are a republic, not a democracy.
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Robert James Ruhnke
We are a republic that forms laws based on the process of democratic processes, in otter words, by voting. It’s true, the US is a Nation of illiterate idiots.
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Lisa Marie Winter
I agree about a national vote! Let the people say and decide for all this issue.
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I hope they win.