Earlier this year, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis signed legislation into law allowing volunteer chaplains into all Florida public schools to help address the mental health crisis impacting schoolchildren across the country. Under the new law, religious chaplains are allowed into Florida schools to “provide counseling support” to students in need.
Now, an unlikely group is sounding the alarm on putting chaplains in schools: Florida clergy, who say that this new chaplaincy program in schools is ripe for religious indoctrination.
The School Chaplain Bill
Signed into law in April of this year, Florida HB 931 allows school districts to adopt policies allowing volunteer school chaplains to provide faith-based mental health support and counseling to students.
A similar bill was passed last year in Texas, which critics accused of being a barely concealed attempt at injecting Christianity into public schools.
Florida’s bill allows school districts to voluntarily adopt a chaplaincy program, which will allow chaplains to “provide support, services, and programs to students as assigned by the district school board or charter school governing board.” Per the bill, chaplains must be volunteers, and schools must publish a list of volunteer school chaplains and their religious affiliations on their school website.
Governor DeSantis compared the program to chaplain programs in the military, arguing that “faith leaders and civic organizations are important additional resources for students who may be facing challenges or need to build community and camaraderie.” DeSantis suggested that the spiritual guidance provided by chaplains will be an “indispensable part of a good education” and said even the nation’s Founding Fathers would approve of the new law.
However, he faced some surprising pushback from some of Florida’s most prominent faith leaders, who say the program is ripe for religious indoctrination and opens the door for proselytizing in school halls.
Faith Leaders Skeptical
As schools across the state weigh whether or not they want to open their doors to volunteer chaplains, the Council of Florida Churches is sending out letters to school board members and superintendents with some very serious concerns.
James Golden, an ordained African Methodist Episcopal minister who serves as secretary for the Council of Florida Churches and who is also co-founder of Pastors for Florida Children, says that the bill allows little more than a “scout’s honor” from volunteer chaplains that they won’t preach in school.
“Anyone that would use this volunteer opportunity to generically provide spiritual comfort that takes advantage of that moment to engage in proselytizing would be abusing that system,” he explained. “And the real problem that I have with that is that there is no checks and balances within the process to prevent that or to preclude that.”
The letters also raise concerns about the chaplains themselves. Potential volunteer chaplains only have to pass a level two background check; The bill does not put any further restrictions on who can and cannot serve as a volunteer chaplain in schools.
Will It Promote Christian Nationalism?
Rabbi Merrill Shapiro, president of the Atlantic Coast chapter of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, has doubts that faiths would be fairly and equally represented in schools. “Christian chaplains, Christian ministers, who come in as chaplains to the schools, volunteer and free, are still enjoined by the gospel to proclaim Jesus as the Lord,” he stated. “Where does that leave the Buddhists? The Hindu? The Muslim? The Jewish students? They’re being pressured to leave the faith of their ancestors and to leave their family’s beliefs, and come over to Christianity.”
“The primary role of chaplains is to provide pastoral or religious counseling to people in spiritual need,” explains Kara Gross of the American Civil Liberties Union. “Allowing them to assume an official position in a public school, even if it’s a voluntary position in a public school, creates an environment that is ripe for religious coercion and indoctrination of students.”
Governor DeSantis, however, says such fears are unfounded. “It’s purely voluntary,” he argued when signing the bill into law. It’s not imposing anything that anyone doesn’t want.”
What do you think of the law? Do chaplains belong in schools, or does their presence simply create an environment ripe for religious coercion? And is this a violation of separation of church and state?
99 comments
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Timothy Paul. Forrester
I believe that Governes and high official's who don't believe in God and who wants Religion outof our school's. I remember when I was in school; before beginning classes we said American legion to the flag: and it has God in it. So to me to put Chaplain's in our schools.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
"american legion to the flag". don't you mean "the pledge of allegiance" to the flag? that goD thing was added in 1954, long after the pledge was written (1892) so for 62 years this country was fine without your goD and went it was inserted into the pledge it was in the middle of the Red Scare and people thought that commies would never swear to god. stupid, really.
anyway, are you in favor of "Governes and high official's who don't believe in God and who wants Religion outof our school's", because you sound like you are
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Vanora O. Jorgensen
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
kkkristofascist regressive, neo-con, far-right-wing anti-human anti-democracy gopper reploplicans are trying to brainwash the minds of all children and con them into believing in silly, stupid, dangerous and downright false pretend spirituality.
Ban religion
All religion
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Darran Jones
As a licensed Reverend, Minister, and holding my Doctorate degree in Divinity, I have continued my religious education by now going down the path of Satanism and Paganism. I want to be well rounded to be able to minister to all different beliefs, even though I myself am an Atheist. (I mean, come on, have you even read all this BS, because I have and it's all false.) How "comfortable" would these schools and districts be if I applied as a volunteer clergy at these schools? I can tell you that they would most likely reject me as I am not following the christian pathway. That makes it pushing an agenda and a particular belief. No place in our schools for that.
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Robert A Farabaugh
Well said...
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Sally Jeanne Altobello
There is a ruling on separation of church and state. We are a melting pot country and, according to the Bible, we are to love and respect all people, no matter what their religion, color, creed. To dictate that everyone must learn Christianity in a public school, where there are people of all faiths--Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, Spirituality, etc..--is an insult to everyone (and a blatant arrogance) that everyone needs to have Christianity shoved down their throats. DeSantis would be much better off dictating the Golden Rule and creating a list of rules that begin in day care/pre-school classes and continues throughout the students' school career; i.e. I will be nice to my classmates; I will listen to my teachers and classmates (two ears and one mouth concept); I will treat others like I want to be treated; etc. Keep the list short and to the point. You can use the word "respect" but you'll need to make sure the students understand what that word means. This ensures that NO ONE is disrespected, regardless of their spiritual beliefs (including those who are atheist or agnostic). The best way to turn one off from spirituality is to shove another's opinions/beliefs down the throat. Too bad DeSantis doesn't understand this. Besides, isn't this why we have private Christian and Jewish schools?
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Robert A Farabaugh
Agreed.
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Ari Joseph Bertine
This sounds different from the forced religious indoctrination now being deployed by Tennessee and Oklahoma. Chaplains are ministers that are available in case someone in an institution needs them, and do not teach, act as guidance counselors, or volunteer service to people who did not specifically request them. If they're acting outside of those boundaries then yeah, it's problematic, but the title "chaplain" is a job description and it's an opt-in service. I don't see a problem with it if all they do is sit in an office until a kid asks for them. Now, if they're proactively going out and looking for church business, then that is definitely a problem, but then they wouldn't be chaplains anymore. It'll be up to the faculty and parents to watch them like hawks until it's been determined what the agenda actually was for installing them; if they are genuinely there as chaplains, it will be evident. It will also be evident if they're there to be sneaky preachers.
Honestly I'd concentrate the concern on the schoolchildren in Tennessee and Oklahoma who are now attending mandatory Sunday school whether they want to or not during their regular school days.
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Kenneth Clay Ford
It religious indoctrination that should not be allowed.
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Enrique Diaz Sandovval
If commenters would read the description of what is being offered instead of a "knee jerk" response, it clearly states that volunteers are there, "to help address the mental health crisis impacting schoolchildren across the country. Under the new law, religious chaplains are allowed into Florida schools to “provide counseling support” to students in need". It does not state that the volunteers are to give classes nor to do any preaching. The participants must request assistance. Therefore any student participating in such activities would have first asked to be in such a program. Take time to read all before any rash judgements are made. And nowhere does it say that Chaplains would be in class. That would be disruptive. As a licensed counselor, Minister and PhD, I would logically expect that any such counseling would require parental approval as well as private settings. The main objective is to assist anyone in need who request such assistance. Thank you for reading and whether agree or not, we are entitled to our personal opinions. God Bless all.
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Melaine Rae Thompson
I think the concern is that this is a first step to shoehorning a particular religion into schools. If they had listed it as having religious representatives volunteer instead of saying chaplains, which infers the Christian religion, it might have been more palatable. Religious representatives would have let people know that all faiths would we welcome.
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Paul Edward Nunis
And there is no requirement that those volunteers be trained as either mental health counselors, or as professional religious chaplains.
What tools will they have to work with... 'Pray away the suicidal ideation'? Telling abuse victims it is God's Will to suffer like Job?
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
If people want religion in schools, then they must allow ALL religions, not just the Christian / Catholic ones.
They MUST allow Pagan priests and priestesses. Jewish Rabais. Muslim Imams. Church of Satanism priests. Taoists Buddhist monks Hindu worshippers
And many others. If they are not going to allow this, then it's NOT for "religious freedom" it is for nothing more, and nothing less, than indoctrination. Deliberately ramming religion down kids' throats without their parents' permissions.
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Maria Elisa Koch
When I was in school in the 70's we had CCD which was religions education by going to the school by the church. We never had religion education in public school, it should be kept separate. There are other religions in public school, they do their own education.
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Daniel Todd Kamm
Yes, it is indoctrination: not even covertly disguised as counseling, or religion. If I were the parent of a child in Florida's schools, I would be suing the school districts and the state. And that putz of a Governor no one wanted for President.
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Enrique Diaz Sandovval
By that avenue of thinking, why are Drag Queen Story Hours allowed? Seems there is more danger of indoctrination there than this.
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Michael Holland
I need to stop the emails, I dont care about these stupid questions, chaplains dont belong in schools, religion indoctrination exists for everyone that enters their doors, nothing in the bible is funny as its a fairy tale. Drag queen story hour is not in the schools.
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Lester Stanley Petrie
Bad idea! Especially in a Bible thumping region of fundamentalism! Schools are for practical learning. Churches are for influencing!
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ServantOfJudgement
If this keeps up next think ya know is kids will start respecting their parents, not lie about each other, feeling bad for stealing and won't bring rifles into school to blast the kindergarten class up. Heck, they might stop thinking they're animals and start acting like humans.
What will we ever do!?!
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Vanora O. Jorgensen
Since we have started taking God out of everything, our country has been going down hill. I wonder if the Ten Commandments had be titled Ten ways to life a better life by Joe Blow, if anyone would have wated to remove them from schools. Look at our history the Bible was the first exet to be used in schools. Look at what is going in ours schools today. No respect for each other,or God and country.
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Joe R Day
"Since we have started taking God out of everything, our country has been going downhill."
I was under the impression that God is 'everywhere' and cannot be 'taken out' of anywhere... Yes, they used the KJV in school, but that was because they didn't have any other books to read.
There are several reasons to take worship out of schools, and they can be researched for information...
There are thousands of students in US schools, and most are respectful and never have any problems with their teachers. It is the news services who only show the problem ones...
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Rev. Michelle Love
The difference between these chaplains and the ones in the military is that the military chaplains get paid. They also get intensive training which is not a guarantee for these volunteers in the school. While I appreciate that Gov DeSantis is trying to address the mental health crisis by providing students with people to talk to in their time of need, but why not just hire additional paid counselors? The thing about volunteer labor is that there is no promise of consistency. Imagine a student establishing a rapport with a chaplain just to feel abandoned after they leave because the workload is too much to handle. Human trafficking can manifest in many ways and requiring a skilled professional to volunteer their labor instead of offering compensation to fulfill a dire need can make anyone feel taken advantage of.
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Patricia Ann Gross
For any of you who are saying this is a good idea. would you want to put a school counselor behind the pulpit every Sunday in your church?
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Steven Ferrell
So it’s ok to indoctrinate into everything else against Christianity, but oh my gosh, forbid someone might share a little Christianity with someone hurting and troubled.
Good grief, if someone is hurting mentally and there are volunteers willing to be that ear the person needs, then let them be that ear.-
Rev'd Andrew
So long as your happy to have your child or grandchild have a little Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Wiccan, or Satanism shared with them at school when they are hurting or troubled, we're all good.
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Russel A. Kester
Andrew, once again, pastoral counseling is not equivalent to indoctrination. It is more of a holy listening. If you'd bought the minister"s manual from the ULC bookstore you'd have read that just being with someone in their moment of crisis or need and listening to them is one of the most important things a minister can do. Sometimes people just need someone to be there without prejudice or preaching.
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Theresa C. Marquess
Well said, Russel.
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Matt Till
As a Florida resident and leader in the Christian community, this legislation is not what our schools need. The urgent needs facing Florida schools cannot be properly solved or alleviated by chaplains. Instead, our schools need more of what they already lack: qualified and well-compensated teachers.
For those interested, I wrote more extensively on this issue when the legislation was in proposal.
https://matttill.com/2024/02/29/florida-schools-need-teachers-not-chaplains/
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Mountainsage
The focus should be what’s good for children and young adults spiritually. As a retired therapist who counseled children of all ages, my observation is that kids are not getting guidance from home and at times need someone to talk to who will listen to them. Giving a child spiritual guidance builds his/her self esteem and the ability to make healthy decisions.
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Kevin McLaughlin
It is a great bill and a good way to get prayer back in schools, where it belongs! Regardless of whether an individual would like to pray (to whatever God/god) they choose, not pray, meditate or contemplate whatever they want, it should be allowed. The only "indoctrination" going on here is progressives and liberals thrusting their beliefs and non-beliefs on children. Time to wake up and understand that this country was built on religious rights and that should not be throttled by anyone!
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David M Hines
Yes, it's indoctrination. There's no way to do this fairly with "equal time" for all religions unless you want schooling to consist entirely of religious indoctrination of one sort or another. The Founders got this one right: better to keep religion out of government altogether.
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Kenneth Garner
I think the term and role ‘chaplain’ needs defined. If they are required to be board certified APC / ACPE chaplains, then they will not be indoctrinating students or evangelizing. Board Certification requires the necessary religious education and experience to be ordained / supported by a denomination or religious institution - Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Islamic, Humanist. But then chaplains also receive Clinical Pastoral Education to train them to offer spiritual and emotional support as a focus instead of religious instruction and persuasion.
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Paul Edward Nunis
Chaplains in the military are required by regulation to minister to any of the hundreds of religious denominations officially recognized by the DoD. Surely Florida has put the same parameters into this law...
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Gary Leu
This is nothing but DANGEROUS. The fact that the chaplains are volunteers only makes things worse. Volunteers are not professionals and are not governed by any professional conduct or ethical behavior standards. There are professional chaplains, like in the military. They have been highly trained to perform their duties. The ones described in this bill only have to pass the same background check as any other school volunteer. The idea that they would be in a school, with a title, which gives them the appearance of legitimacy that they sorely lack in reality, is hugely distressing.
"Hi! I passed a background check! Now I want the title of 'chaplain' so that I can counsel students privately. I'm not required to have any training or licensing for this, just my willingness to give off-the-cuff advise to vulnerable students who will, in all likelihood, put tons more faith in my unearned title than they really should."
I'm not sure what problem this actuallly solves. I only see clear problems it creates. If students need religious counseling, there are plenty of places for that. In Florida, there's one on nearly every block looking for business. If students need mental health support, there are licensed counselor, social workers, and psychologists already in schools. If there is not enough access to those services, hire more. Schools can only offer so much in the way of mental health support. Often communities lack enough professional mental health providers that are available to work with children. (Think about that for a second. Not every therapist works with children. It takes special training and expertise.) If DeSantis was really trying to provide better mental health care for children, then he would do so responsibly. Maybe he and his followers would work to increase the number of therapists that work with students. Giving volunteers without qualifications a title and access to children IN OUR SCHOOLS is no way to responsibly help children. I would assert that, if anything, these "chaplains" run a HUGE risk of harming children, despite any good intentions, as soon as they open their mouths.
I wonder what they envision is going to happen when a student meets with one of these "chaplains." Students are going to come to them with some sort of problem. Let's say the student mentions that they are sad. Is the chaplain going to screen for depression? The student mentions that they are worried about their future and they have lost hope. Are they going to assess for suicidality? I'm having difficulty imagining a single instance in which a chaplain wouldn't be over their heads as soon as the student enetered the room. Even sitting there quietly could cause problems in easy to imagine circumstances. Let's say that the only thing a chaplain does is to sit quietly and listen, and then maybe join the student in prayer saying nothing the whole time. In the student's prayer, the student asks for God to stop their mother from using drugs. What are they going to do? These chaplains are in over their heads as soon as they walk in the building.
Licensed professionals have an ethical duty to disclose the limits of their capabilities. We can't be experts in everything. These chaplains don't have to be an expert in anything that matters to being a chaplain. They should disclose this. Maybe sit next to a BIG sign that reads. "I'm making this up as I go. I am not required to have any skills or training that might be of help. I am accountable to no one." Letters should be sent home to parents warning them of the chaplains' lack of skills.
But, like with so many other examples, this is not about what it says it's about (i.e., providing children with good care). This is about blurring the traditionally carefully crafted lines between religion and public schools, not really about doing the best for students. I see nothing in this bill that makes an effort to provide quality care for students - just the opposite. In the picture above, he's standing behind a sign that reads "Supporting Florida's Students." "Harming Florida's Students Because We Don't Really Care Enough to Do It Right. It's Actually About Politics" would be more accurate.
Using students this way to make politcal points... disgusting.
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Rev_Shaun
You nailed it!
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Shelly Johnson
You nailed it. We need to step in and teach children the right ways so that they can live a decent life.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
I wonder how well a nondenominational spiritual advisor would be welcomed? I have no doubt bible thumpers would be rioting and making threats so "unchristian-like*. There is no hate like christian hate.
Fundamentals, fringe groups and conservatives have so weaponized that word that is becoming useless. There are good, spiritual people who happen to call themselves christians and do embrace love, acceptance and forgiveness but they are drowned out by those who have weaponized the word to come to be perceived as hate mongers judging and condemning anyone who does not think exactly as they do. which they usually do as most are right fighters who only care about whether or not you agree with them and not right or wrong.
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James Riggle-Johnson
One of the worst things you can do for a person in crisis is set them down with someone who had no idea what they’re doing. The fact that various religious groups are warning people against this says something. Why not ask for volunteer therapists instead? That could help a child who’s dealing with a mental crisis.
This is nothing more than the government trying to sneak religion into public education. Except this is out in the open. Just like Oklahoma having teachers try to teach the bible. They aren’t qualified to teach religion. That’s the job of the person’s church.
Why are there not more religious after school programs? Why aren’t the churches trying to pay for that and teach children about religion there.
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Reverend Paula Copp
Totally agree!
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Joseph L Stokes
It is Everyone's Birth Right to "seek out" that Aspect of the Most High that speaks to them the most. And so I whole heartedly support having Spirtual Advisors and Mentors of ALL FAITH EXPRESSIONS within the Educational System at the disposal of all Students/Educators.....
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Martin L Stigleman
This has nothing to do with someone trying to "seek out" their religion. This isn't even about religion. This is about an unlicensed, unskilled, and unqualified person providing MENTAL HEALTH CARE to A CHILD is crisis, based SOLELY on their claim to be "a pastor". I am a "pastor", as nearly every single person on this forum is. Does that make me qualified to provide mental health care to a child? Not to denigrate the ULC, but the ONLY reason many on this forum can claim being a pastor is because we paid a small stipend to get registered. I met another ULC pastor one evening at a gas station. He tried to sell me some Crack! No...being a pastor SHOULD NOT allow spiritual guidance of a child.
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Colleen McAllister
I don't think volunteer chaplains are a good idea. Trained clinicians who are vetted, cleared by the DOJ, and trained for working with children is one thing. Untrained volunteers who are trained as clergy does not fit that. And if they di pass all the regulations then there must also be counselors of several religions. Not just one.
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Donald J Rothschild Jr
Oh I can’t wait for the Church of Satan or a Muslim Iman to apply. The heads of the Christian Nationalists will explode.
Keep religion out of the public schools. Hire REAL therapists for those that need the help. Religion belongs in the homes and at the churches, temples, whatever.
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Robert Gagnon
Considering the APA's solution to students under stress, this is no more of an indoctrination. Pastors act as counselors enough to have experience in the field. I am sure the message would be to love ones self rather than become someone else. And if the student needs religious counselling it's already in place.
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Patricia Ann Gross
But not to take the place of APA or NCC credentialed school counselors. Very few seminaries have an APA credentialed program in pastoral counseling, which is completely different than what they are talking about putting in the schools. There are no safeguards, no credentials required, and no checks/balances to make sure that no harm is done. That is what the clergy pushback is all about.
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Daniel Gray
I love how people get all bent out of shape at having someone in schools to help children. I mean we have chaplains in the Military and we have a Chaplin in Congress and we have had Chaplin actually go to the WH and speak to the President, in fact Jefferson actually used to lead a Bible Study in his office for crying out loud. So whats the fuss?
And dont even start with that myth of Separation of Church and state as that does not now and never has appeared in the US Constitution and no under Article 3 (powers of the Judiciary) of that same constitution, it does not now nor has it ever given the Supreme Court the authority to "interpret" anything, they must make a decision on the available information, not opinions.
So this is just another way to get people who are ignorant on this subject to start screaming and hollering and wasting space and time.
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Amber Fry
This isn't help. It's indoctriation. There is a huge difference. If you really want help then have real medically and clenically trained people actually talk to the kids to see what they need on their level, not on yours and not on any one specific religious level.
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Rev. BH
Daniel, the Supreme Court interprets everything based on the bribes, gifts and paid trips given them by wealthy far-right Christian Nationalist Republicans.
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Rev. Carol M Anaski-Figurski
Here's what i think, change the term chaplain to clergy for better outcomes in volunteer work. A doctor of divinity certificate from ULC encompasses multifaith based gaps the budda, jewish, musiln, taos, dao, wicca etc. Plus the LGBT students are accepted. The texas school district requires in their job description of chaplain semester hours. if you use the certificate pograms you don't have semester hours so its a gap. I would also bring back prayers in the classroom w the pledge of allegience. All & all in the future Satan is going to want a platform which is allowed & can't be discriminated against.
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Joy
For the most part I cannot stand our Governor. This is something I absolutely do not agtree with. Put phys ed back into classes. If mental health is such an issue with our children, then put in certified clinicians in the schools that are trained to deal with it. Not some religious person who cannot discern the real issues.
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Joy
^^ agree. I also can't seem to be able to type LOL
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Reverend Paula Copp
Totally agree!
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David Arthur Lewis
Well, fortunately, the Satanic Temple will also provide chaplains.
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Michael Holland
Without unsubscribing is there a way to stop these questions or topics of conversation, they usually just turn into arguments!
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Joe R Day
Just don't read the comments, read the article and move on to the next article. It's that simple...
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Cynthia Mandello
Nothing like giving child predators free range in a target rich environment.
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James Riggle-Johnson
That's what I worry about.
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Rev. MichaelRS
The Florida Council of Churches. 😄
They are one of the ones that Jesus, knowing the future, spoke about in Matthew 24:5.
That being said, I am against this because how could you be a true person of ANY faith and not help but proselytize in a situation like that?
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Russel A. Kester
Michael, I worked with chaplains in the military and they did a wonderful job providing pastoral counseling to soldiers without proselytizing them.
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Rev. MichaelRS
In their respective branches of the service military chaplains go to school for weeks to learn how to do just that with adult service members.
I don't know what the safeguards would be in the Florida system with the minds of more impressionable youth.
Also, I don't know how Florida is going to be able to keep out Wiccan or Church of Satan chaplains in favor of more mainstream Christian, Jewish or Muslim ones. Because you know there's going to be that lawsuit.
And of course I think "the people" passed a law in Florida because they think all the chaplains are going to be Christian, or at least people calling themselves Christians. But what kind of Christian? Are they going to be Southern Baptist, Methodist or from the Metropolitan Community Church. I don't think the people were counting on the last when they passed that law.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Florida, Oklahoma, and Texas are now bastions of right wing dogma, which spells nothing good for anyone not buying into their snake oil cult jargon. Schools don’t need chaplains. They need health and safety officers or more teachers, both well paid. This just seems like a cheap cut corners alternative to real counselors or real help which doesn’t push a right wing religious agenda. It’s growing deeply out of control and I hope we snap out of this madness soon as a nation.
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Rev. BH
And schools should place phys-ed. coaches in churches to give stimulating laps to those who doze off.
How many "chaplains" from how many religions will be needing offices? Or do we put them all in one big office and create religious arguments and disharmony? There is not just one religion - by far.
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Reverend Paula Copp
Agreed
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Patricia Ann Gross
Thumbs up.
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RyanQ.
Spiritual counciling is not indoctrination. Use what you know of human nature and the spiritual teachings in any given faith to help elevate the child out of what ever crisis there under. I would personally never force a belief system on anyone. These children aren't seeking God because God already knows them. They just need a listening ear and support they might not find any where else.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
so long as it's your approved version of religion and god. you cool with muslim chaplains? hindu ones? Probs not, you are advocating here, spoken or not, for the kkkristofascist version of kkkristofascist nationalists and dominionists spearheading a theocracy and instilling and enforcing a kkkristofascist version of sharia law. Let's not be coy and disingenuous about this, we can all see the white robes and hoods
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Patricia Ann Gross
Ryan, On a definition level you are correct for someone who is trained as a spritual counselor. Very few pastors have more than 10-12 hours of pastoral care training if they have an MDiv (not required by all denominations), and chaplaincy is a specialty that requires a one year residency beyond the MDiv to be appropriately trained. Bringing in volunteer pastors as a replacement for Master's level school counselors and calling them chaplains could very well lead to indoctrination, as that is a way to get the children's parents in their pews.
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Russel A. Kester
It's a great bill. Yes, chaplains belong in our schools. Their presence does not create an environment ripe for religious coercion. This is not a violation of the separation of church and state as such a concept is not law. I've read that mental health issues among our youngest citizens is at an all time high. The presence of a minister from the child's church is a good thing. Most likely the chaplains will be proportionately representative of the community. And it will be good for Christian students to see a Jewish Rabbi with a wave of greeting. Smart idea. More states should follow suit..
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Keith Ramsey
Except it isn't a great bill, and many others have stated why. Chaplins do not belong in public schools at all. Private schools, leave it to those running that school. There is too much room for the indoctrination of the children into a specific religion of that Chaplin.
This is a very clear violation of separation of church and state. Unless it can be guaranteed that the Chaplin is versed in multiple religions to cover all the faiths in the school district.
I'm sorry, but this is just another bad idea being pushed by those that want to force religious beliefs onto others.
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Rev. Michelle Love
Keith, I agree with you 100%. While I agree that having someone available to address any mental health needs a student may have, it should not be a clergy member that is being forced to volunteer who does not have the liability insurance most churches are required to have. This has the potential to turn a bad situation worse for a child.
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Henry Gordon. Weed
I agree the chaplain should be versed on all religions or at least non denomination.As far as church and state wasn't this country founded on a religious platform.after all even our money has in God we trust on it,so why did we kick God out of school.
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Robert James Ruhnke
No. Absolutely not. This is just a gateway for right wing fascist agendas to implemented on young people through their cult’s religion. You’re too busy viewing this from your rose lensed glasses, Kester. Your conflating being LGBTQ+ or the TQ+ with mental health problems, when it’s the religious and gender essentialist bullying which is hurting them. Gods help you, Kester.
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Russel A. Kester
Robert, I'd heard the term gender essentialism before, but asked Google AI to be sure I understood it correctly. Part of the description given was, "Gender essentialism is believed to be a basic feature of human social categorization, with children across cultures showing early essentialism of gender. It can also mean the belief that gay people are born gay, or that there is a distinctive 'gay sensibility'." So, you are right. I am a gender essentialist.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Yes, and it’s antiquated. Like most of your other Bronze Age myths and cultural superstitions you push. Right wing Gender essentialists don’t believe people are born gay. Lol you being from Oklahoma you should know that. Neither do I for that matter. I don’t think it’s fully genetic, or fully a learned behavioral phenomenon. I think it’s both, and not everyone is born the same way. Being born human has so many possibilities, and so quickly do people wanna push agendas and labels on the born. I think it’s just a metaphor for being born human and what all it entails. Some people choose their sexuality and there’s nothing wrong with it. Some People choose to be fanatic right wing Christian wannabes. People are born trans too. Get over it already.
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Robert Gagnon
Born trans is nonsense. Allowing, or worse encouraging someone to believe they can be something they are not is criminal. Facts and reality never change. Being born a woman and growing up as one is a reality. A man choosing to be a woman is just a poser satisfying their delusion. Sure they have been around since the beginning of time, but so have schizophrenics, sociopaths, psychopaths, and a few other mental illnesses. Letting the lunatics run in the streets does not make them normal, just free to express and display their illness in public.
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oy_gevalt
Strongly disagree is usual. This has no place in the public sphere. Parents who want to give their children a Christian (Or Muslim, or Jewish, or Buddhist, or Hindu...) can enroll their children in appropriate programs. This sets a dangerous precedent, not surprising in this time of ultra-right-wing lunacy.
I respect your opinion. I just think you're wrong.
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Russel A. Kester
oy_gevalt. Yes, we do seem to disagree often. And I too respect your opinion.
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Michael Holland
What if the minister is not from the child church and the child in question is of another religion. Placing a specific religion Chaplain, minister, pastor or priest is a bad idea. Perhaps a mental health counselor, people of the cloth are not always trained to counsel. That is true separation of church and state. If the child needs to speak to their specific pastor that's on the parents. This will probably be debated and I'll delete it because I really don't care. My life is almost over so what should I care about the future of the world!
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Theresa C. Marquess
Michael, Do you have children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren? If you do, or if you are acquainted with those who do, you should care. I care very much what kind of world my great-grandchildren will inherit from us. I would like it to be a better world than we inherited from our elders. That's as it should be when we grow older. I am there. However many more years I have, I will continue to work to make this world that we live in the very best place that I can. I hope you will join me in my efforts.
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Russel A. Kester
Michael, I too am getting on in years, but I care very much for the future as I want the generations to come to have and experience all of the wonderful things I did and more. I want us to leave a better America for them than we inherited. So I care very much indeed.
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CB Cuff
When you evolve from your cocoon hopefully you'll appreciate the real world. Every one of your statements are based on imagination and hearsay. For example correlating mental health issue with the lack of religion????
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Russel A. Kester
CB, here are some of the benefits Google came up with for the positive benefits for religion. "Religion and spirituality can have a positive impact on mental health in many ways: Support Religion can provide a sense of belonging and community, with support from friends, clergy, or religious institutions. Meaning Religion can help people make sense of their experiences, find purpose, and feel connected to something bigger than themselves. Coping Religion can provide coping methods such as rituals, forgiveness, and reframing stressful situations. Strength Religion can provide hope and strength, which can be helpful when someone is unwell. Peace Religion can help people feel more at peace with themselves and others. Therapy Some therapies, such as religious cognitive behavioral therapy, have shown positive results when incorporating a spiritual or religious component. Some studies have found that religiosity and spirituality are associated with lower rates of anxiety, depression, and suicidal tendencies, as well as higher life satisfaction and meaning in life." That's a lot of good stuff. And the reciprocal is true that a lack of religious belief fails to provide these goods leading to anxiety and depression, and greater instances of suicidal ideations. Seems that I am living in the real world.
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CB Cuff
Appreciate your getting back, but it has only muddle the issues even more. I won't waste time critiquing except on your one reference; "Some therapies such as religious cognitive behavioral therapy...." There is no such school of therapy. Sounds more like a cover banner for indoctrination to me. Nothing personal.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Russ, RCBT is used by trained psychological clinicians and is not something that’s in a chaplain’s wheelhouse. I would also point out that there are not that many psychological clinicians that are well versed enough in religion to provide it accurately. So, while RCBT may provide help in some circumstances, there aren’t that many people who are trained in both religion and psychology. I would love for trained therapist to sign up to give free counseling. I wonder why Florida hasn’t started a program like that. I think the basic reason is they want God in our schools.
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Rev_Shaun
"Some studies have found that religiosity and spirituality are associated with lower rates of anxiety, depression, and suicidal tendencies, as well as higher life satisfaction and meaning in life."
But yet my JW neighbour is clinically depressed and on medication for it.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
Stupid idea all together. Even a blind man can see that it's a thinly (very thinly) veiled attempt to get kkkristofascism into the schools.
How cute, a rabbi waving to the students. Feel the same with about an imam waiving to the kkkrist chin students? What about a chaplain from The Satantic Temple? Fingers crossed they will almost certainly be applying to take part (and yes, they are a recognized religion).
If it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck...it's a kkkristofascists nationalist attempting to subvert the US Constitution and to marginalize all other religions.
Nothing new here, nothing to see, same old kkkristofascist nonsense, another version of intelligent design that didn't then and this version won't either
Ps meester kester, do you LIVE online in the blog? Are you paid by someone to be here and represent kkkristofascism? Because I can be gone for days yet when I peak in I see you've made multiple comments on multiple blogs.
I have to say, either you have no life or this is the best you can do. If so maybe prey harder to your clown god see if he can seen you some better luck
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Russel A. Kester
JJ, your first four paragraphs were the usual responses. I couldn't find an argument in them though t thought that maybe you were trying to when you mentioned intelligent design. If so, I regret that it wasn't clear to me..
I really don't concern myself with other people's lives, so I don't know why anyone would feel entitled to comment on mine. It just seems to be in bad taste to do so.
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Amber Fry
Beg yto differ. The moment you decide to inflict religious clergy of any type into a public system you've concerned yourself.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Russel, I will meet you halfway on this. If you are concerned about the mental health of children, a volunteer chaplain should never take the place of a licensed mental health provider, as few pastors have any credential in anything more than mental health first aid to address a potential suicide. Virtually all states have credentialing and Master's level schooling plus internships/practicums for school counselors, as this is a specialty that is geared toward that specific demographic. If a pastor wants to volunteer time away from their congregation a few hours a week to meet any spiritual needs, or even be on call if the school counselor sees a spiritual crisis need that the pastor/rabbi/priest/imam can address, then I could even see that as a possibility. What Texas has done and Florida is suggesting, however, is replacing school counselors with volunteers that have no training in chaplaincy, and some have no training in pastoral care. This is more dangerous than being without any counselors at all. If they are replacing the Master's credentialed school counselors with chaplians with no training it should jeopardize their federal funding for the school districts or schools that adopt the policy.
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Russel A. Kester
Patricia, thank you for meeting me halfway. As I understand it from this article, so that's a big caveat, the law allows districts to participate or not and leaves it up to the individual districts to assess who is or is not qualified. In short, being a pastor, priest, Rabbi, or imam does not entitle one to be a school chaplain. Being such a person is necessary but not sufficient for the job. And since those who are accepted should be members of the community, the local school administrators should be in a better position to make that assessment. I also agree that pastoral counseling is not psychological counseling and any clergy person must know his or her limits and make referrals to mental healthcare professionals appropriately. As always, good discussion.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Thank you Russel. I have personally run across several pastors who totally hate the pastoral care part of their job and would rather have a tooth pulled without anesthesia than visit a sick or dying person in the hospital or counsel someone in spritual crisis. I have met others who don't mind doing it, but really s--- at it. I have had a pastor tell me how I was or wasn't feeling (which shows they have had no training at all, or flunked the course) as this is a foundational taboo. It scares me when these states think a "chaplain" is an appropriate substitute for someone credentialed in mental health issues with children. Even a chaplain that is has a certification through ACPE or other accrediting agencies is not necessarily sufficiently trained in working with children unless their residency was at a children's hospital. It is also doubtful that someone with those credentials would be willing to volunteer time more than a few hours a week unless they are retired or have substantial income elsewhere. The earning power of a chaplain is equivalent to a social worker or head/supervising nurse and generally more than a pastor.
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Theresa C. Marquess
This was a bold move on Gov. DeSantis part. I don't see a thing wrong with having Chaplains in our schools. My son tells of when he survived combat, while in the service of our country, of a situation where a priest or pastor was not available, but a rabbi was. The rabbi provided him with the ability to get through this difficult time, and to this day my son finds comfort in that man's words. If a clergyman of any faith can provide that to an individual who is in need, there is no harm in whether it is a clergyman of the same faith or not. Having a Chaplain available to a student in need of that kind of comfort is a blessing.
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Russel A. Kester
Theresa, thank you for that powerful comment. And I am grateful to your son for his service.
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Theresa C. Marquess
Russel A. Kester, Thank you Russel. I will pass your comment on to my son. It is greatly appreciated by myself and will be by him, also.
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Cheryl Pettijohn
You are incorrect, this is not a great bill. oh, it is on first glance. But you are counting on people acting in good faith and that is not reality. Experience should show you that proselytizing is too common when is should not be present. Also, you cannot count on the various religions being proportionally represented. A system of checks and balances needs to be put in place to monitor the behavior of the chaplains and to ensure that all religions are fairly represented. Also, no child should ever be required to attend.
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Reverend Paula Copp
Religion of ANY faith does not belong in PUBLIC schools! The founding fathers made that abundantly clear through their writings and the Bill of Rights. We are NOT a religion based country!
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Anthony Craig Liner Sr I
Great having a biblical Christian pastoral spiritual religious counseling psychology in the schools paid or unpaid. The youth of today needs Christian and religious doctrine in their lives
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Rev. BH
Comment removed by user.
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Paul Edward Nunis
Wondering how simply appointing someone to the title of Chaplain as this does... will help young people with those issues, when they need to talk about suicide, abuse, or other things that really need a trained, licensed professional?
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I believe in the separation of church and state.
This is indoctrination 100% Everyone (kids) is being funneled into one belief system. A belief system that is corrupt at that.
Cultish because there's consequences for not believing their way.
Something is very wrong here! More people need to pump the brakes. This isn't true religion and this isn't true law. None of this upholds our constitution either. Which is why the 2 don't mix.