Earlier this year, Louisiana Governor Jeff Landry signed into law a controversial piece of legislation mandating classrooms across the state display the Ten Commandments.
The rationale, as explained by bill sponsors, is that the Ten Commandments are a historical document relevant to United States history, and that they should be displayed in classrooms for historical purposes – not religious ones.
While legal challenges are being mounted against the bill, it remains the law for now, and Louisiana students will probably see the Ten Commandments in class come this fall.
Now, Hindu leaders are seeking equal treatment under the law for a document important to their faith.
What About the Bhagavad Gita?
It seemed inevitable: If Christians get their faith represented in the classroom, why not other faiths? Hindu leaders are the first to see if they too can adorn public school classrooms with their religious teachings, starting with passages from the Hindu holy text, the Bhagavad Gita.
The President of the Universal Society of Hinduism Rajan Zed explained that the Gita was massively influential on some of America’s most prominent people, particularly in the realm of arts and science.
He cites Henry David Thoreau, Alduous Huxley, Albert Einstein, and J. Robert Oppenheimer amongst those who held the Gita close to their hearts. Zed says that this makes the Gita similarly is a “historically significant document” that is also a “treasure that should be displayed in public school classrooms.”
The Gita’s presence in the classroom would make students “well-nurtured, well-balanced, and enlightened citizens of tomorrow,” explained Zed. And not to worry about the cost: He says the Hindu community will foot the bill for every single poster.
Commanding the Classroom
How did we get here?
Proponents of the Ten Commandments requirement insists it's not intended to promote religion in public school classrooms, but instead to sharpen historical context for students.
“The purpose is not solely religious,” explained the bill's sponsor, State Sen. Jay Morris. Rather, the Ten Commandments will be required for their "historical significance, which is simply one of many documents that display the history of our country and foundation of our legal system.”
Critics have labeled this justification as a less-than-subtle attempt to sneak Christianity back in public schools on very shaky legal grounds. “This is a historical document,” explained bill co-author, State Rep. Lauren Ventrella, in a CNN interview. “This is a historical document in Louisiana, because in Louisiana we believe in faith, family, and freedom.”
A Growing Movement
The controversial bill has already been challenged in court, with the complaint arguing that it “pressures students into religious observance, veneration, and adoption of the state’s favored religious scripture.”
Despite the legal opposition, more states may soon be following suit; there appears to be a national movement underway to further integrate the Bible and Christian teachings into the classroom.
Oklahoma State Superintendent Ryan Walters just directed all public schools in his state to teach the Ten Commandments, describing the Bible as an “indispensable historical and cultural touchstone.”
Other states are said to be considering similar legislation.
Can Other Faiths Join?
This development begs the question: could other religions make similar arguments to be included in classroom curricula? How, exactly, is historical significance determined here?
There are nearly two billion Muslims on the planet and over 1.2 billion Hindus – should their faith be represented on classroom walls? If we’re talking purely American history… what about some of America’s homegrown faiths? Shouldn’t the Mormon Church get some classroom real estate? What about Scientology?
It’s certainly a slippery slope.
Whether the Louisiana bill survives these legal challenges remains to be seen, but in the meantime, Rep. Ventrella issued a pointed message for the critics: if they don’t like it, “don’t look at it.”
Some wonder if she’ll share the same sentiment if Hindu leaders get their way.
What do you make of the controversy? Should the Ten Commandments be posted on the walls of classrooms? And if so, should texts from other religions also be permitted?
306 comments
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Holly Jarrett
All i am going to say is it is discrimination and bias. Yes there was more christians here in the beginning historically , but only because any other religion is usually persecuted for coming out. The history about the United States is built on a bunch of lies , deception , and back breaking labor. My opinion is its just another way for christians to force their religion down your throat. If one religious book , like the bible is allowed in the classrooms then others should be as well. it is not fair to our children to only have one choice, when there is so much hidden that isnt told to them.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
agreed. everyone seems to forget that native Americans were here long before us. researchers went on several investigations finding evidence that vikings were here before us. templars may have escaped to come here. South American travelers may have also been here. it seems to me some Caucasian thread members may be forgetting alot and feeling way too entitled.
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Pastor George Day
Lori-Ann Neeb,
They may have been here before, but they didn't leave behind a legacy.
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MacKenzie David McKay
Quite honestly, it's simple. Should any religious texts be required in state classrooms? No, not unless they're doing studies on comparative religions. Should any texts be banned? Also, no, kids can bring whatever texts they want. The issue is the requirement of display. The US was not formed as a Christian nation, and no single religion has any role in how we govern. When people say the Ten Commandments are the basis of our civilization, they're wrong. Just because the Ten Commandments adopted certain precepts that are shared in all civilizations does not mean they came first. We have no laws about coveting possessions, no laws about worshiping only the Jewish God, no laws about the sabbath day, honoring parents, or making idols. The only laws that overlap are murder, theft, and perjury. Civil laws about adultery. If 40% is all it takes, well...that's a pretty low bar.
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Celestia Quixs
Our independence and constitution are based upon separation of Church and State, Period. No religious documents, no religious teaching. If States are going to bypass this by recognizing one religion, then, ALL religions recognized by the US Department of Defense have a right to be recognized as well. Here is the most up-to-date list of religions recognized by the US DOD: https://americanhumanist.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Faith-and-Belief-Codes-for-Reporting-Personnel-Data-of-Service-Members.pdf
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Julie Armstrong
What we need is more religion. Yes in classrooms. Say the Pledge to our FLAG. If other religions want to include their Bibles/the Vedas/Torah etc This will give children a chance to make their own belief and turn To GOD. They will realize there are only 2 sexes Man and Woman Male and Female and we can not Change this.We are made the way we are for a Reason. Figure out why. Children have no rights to decide to mutilate their bodies until they are legal to vote, fight in wars, drink, smoke etc. Parents who want to do this to their child have No GOD in their lives. SO yes, put these History/Culture/Truth/Religious/Spiritual books in classrooms. The World will be a better place
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Lori-Ann Neeb
That would never be correct under any circumstances. First of all since the children of the Bible thumpers are being raised to think like yourselves they would bully any child that did try to be different at all. You have probably lived lives as both sexes. We chart lives before we reincarnate according to what we want to experience or learn to perfect our souls for God, who loves all his children the same by the way. If He can love all no matter their race or sexual preference, shouldn't you at least try to do the same? Pray for your own guidance,enlightenment and true faithful compassion and empathy for all.
We do have a gender at Home so if we write a life chart that has us being the other gender for a life, we would very likely be gay, bi or lesbian at the very least because we come down in the opposite sex body but have the same preferences we have in our real selves at Home. You most likely have spent some time in lives like that yourself.
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Ari Joseph Bertine
What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Government is not allowed to make any laws respecting a particular religion, therefore the law that Louisiana has made cannot respect only Christianity and must allow other religions to include their materials in classrooms as well. That goes for Hindus, Muslims, Neo-pagans, Zoroastrians, Satanists and any other religion out there. ALL written religions texts in America are historically relevant because all of them are a part of American culture.
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Pastor George Day
Ari Joseph Bertine,
I would do without Satanism, and I'm sure you would too!
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Ari Joseph Bertine
It honestly depends upon the type of Satanist. The Church of Satan I personally consider to be a type of rebellious Christianity since they are honoring a being that originates from the Christian pantheon and that has no place in any other religion. I'm not keen on those as they are pretty much just religion edgelords and shock jocks.
The Satanic Temple, on the other hand, do not believe in Satan as a real entity but as a literary symbol, and they are pretty good folks. Their seven tenets revolve around compassion and respect for others and oneself, and would be a very positive addition to any classroom. Children do need to learn about empathy, about their right to not be molested, and about thinking before they do something. Nothing in the TST tenets is harmful if they are all observed properly.
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Thomas Christopher Medina
This is an end run to try and use religion to restore morality in our society. It won't work. Individuals influence society, and in turn society influences individuals. It's now become too much, too little, too late, and now the chaos will run it's course. Anyway, in response to this article. Instead of covertly (deceitfully, lying, thou shalt not lie), (get my drift) trying to force feed religion in the classroom, why not lead by example in our personal lives. Unless, of course, you don't even realize how short you fall of your own ideals. Part of the reason for this societal dilemma is that many of the individuals who support this cause are themselves contributors to the problem, and can't even see their part in it. Our society didn't become what it has overnight, it's been a long time coming. Give a moral inch, and you'll end up giving a moral mile.
If Christianity receives recognition in the classroom, then why not do the same for other religions? If morality is the goal, then isn't any kind of a moral compass better than no moral compass at all? Why not let people choose whatever path works for them? If you want to influence and make an impact on society, then lead by example and practice what you preach at home. This way your children won't need to discover or receive their moral learning, (or lack there of), from an institution.
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Kenneth Kling
We're talking about placing the 10 Commandments in a prominent place within the school. I recommend somewhere within the library, along with availability to information pertaining to each of the dominant Religions. Now let us sit back and watch the pissing match over which practices should be included. Since we appear to not be able to have peaceful discourse over most any topic, it seems to me why having any of these practices represented within the confines of a public school is warranted.
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Rev. Mojo
I thought Church and State were separate. If it is a public school ALL religions have to be presented to be an "equal" advantage/environment so on. All religions main book should be allowed at least in the school libraries!! Rev. Leilani Abbey Mojarro
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Rev. Michelle Love
I believe that posting the Ten Commandments in classrooms can be problematic for several reasons. While I concede that someone may want the Sixth Commandment to be posted as a deterrent for school violence, I can see how posting the Fourth and the Fifth Commandments can backfire on the school. If a child decides to take keeping the Sabbath day holy to heart, I can see a lot of grades dropping because a whole day has been taken away from their schedule to do homework and study for exams. If one is mandated to honor one's mother and father, a child may not feel comfortable reporting abuse or neglect in the home and may suffer in silence for years. In addition, adultery is not a subject that should be a topic of discussion in the classroom unless you are in English class talking about the book The Great Gatsby. On top of it all, the opening line of "I am the Lord they God. No other Gods come before me" is asserting that the teacher should be the child's main source of guidance and not their own parents.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
You make some good valid points. I'm impressed! :-)
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Philenda L. Daniel
Can Other Faiths Join? Asking this question alone… just goes to show me… how much bigotry exists in our society. Forget all the other religions outside of the Christian sects. Which version of the Bible will be installed in the school system? Which Christian point of view?
Bibles I found: 1599 Geneva Bible American Standard Bible. Amplified Bible Berean Standard Bible Christian standard Bible Contemporary English Version Codex Sinaiticus Concordia Self Study Bible Darby Bible translation. The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible Douay-Rheims Bible English revised version. The Ethiopian Bible God's Word® Translation. Good News Translation. Greek Modern Bible Holman, Christian Standard Bible International Standard Version The Jehovah's Witnesses' Bible JPS Tanakah 1917 King James Bible King James Bible purple letter edition. Nag Hammadi Scriptures NET Bible New American Standard Bible New Heart English Bible. New International Bible Version New Living Translation Orthodox Jewish Bible Aramaic Holy Bible aka Peshitta Holy Bible NASB, The Charles F. Stanley Life Principles Bible NASB Zondervan Study Bible New Believer's Bible Spiritual Warfare Bible The New Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible The Holy Psalmody by Coptic Orthodox Church Bohairic Coptic New Testament Sahidic Coptic New Testament The Scriptures (ISR 1998) Webster Bible Translation. World English Bible Wycliffe’s Bible. Young's Literal Translation and I’m sure there are many lesser-known Bibles.
Let's just wring the wash out on this… among the Christian sects for a minute. There is bigotry amongst Christians just in the Christian denomination alone. What Interpretation is the correct one? …The One and the Only singular point of view for many Is the King James Bible… If you're in a Christian sect that is more Metaphysical than Evangelical, you are then deemed Satan Incarnate if, they are a judgmental bunch. In my mind posting the Ten Commandments is passive aggressive, judgmental, just based on what is stated in book, chapter, and verse of Luke 6:37: “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven.” And… insecurely bigoted based on my definition of bigotry: A defiant intolerance for any system of thought, belief, or opinion other than one's own system of thought belief or opinion. .The Master teacher I most respect is Jesus who is individualized out of ‘God’ yet not the whole of ‘God.’ Jesus equals a singular piece of the whole of ‘God’ and is not ALL of that which is ‘God.’ That would be like saying a single piece of the whole pie is all of the pie… that is not so. ‘God’ is greater than not less than. I would have to go with the Gnostic Christians point of perspective… when it comes down to it at this point, perhaps because I am enveloped in the Nag Hammadi Scriptures… which were hidden from other Christian sects to possibly avoid destruction of the texts by the one’s trying to obtain political power and earthly rewards like the ability to manipulate the Kings decisions/ policies of the time. With that said. Will the state take my children because I agree with a first century Gnostic Christians interpretation of Holy Events? Will I be run out of the school system as a Gnostic Christian, as a Coptic Christian, as a Jehovah Witness Christian, or for that matter Zoroastrian Christian … or whatever type of Christian that is not the same type of Christian as deemed appropriate and singularly correct by the Louisiana State Legislature… or any legislature in the USA? Latter Day Saints, to use the proper terminology, are Christians… Scientology is not compatible with Christianity. Just considering… the multifaceted jewel called Christianity... can incite bigotry and racism. Will I be shunned, banished if I said I was multi-denominational, that I deeply respect the Mastery of Jesus, his patience, and his death-defying commitment to The Word? Can I…Can I still freely and without obligation to the school system and legislative branch … believe and understand that The Light is greater than Jesus alone? Can I teach and believe the Word…The Light is so great that the whole of ‘God’ can administer to the children as they can accept ‘God’ through their appearance and culture… Yes, I can. Will I be allowed to freely believe to this line of interpretation and thought or will I be cast down and reeducated into the singularly appropriate Christian, they mandate me to be? So, there’s that to consider.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
The United States of America is NOT a Christian Nation. Both the 1st Amendment, and the Treaty of Tripoli, make that clear. Also, the USA is not mentioned anywhere in ANY bible - except the TRUMP bible which is just evil.
The founding fathers did not found the USA to be Christian either.
If there is to be the CHRISITAN bible in classrooms, then they MUST, or be proven to be illegally biased, also put the koran, the torah, the Witch's Bible, the Satanic Bible, the Guru Granth Sahib - which is the bible of the Sheik religions, etc. also all in the classrooms as well.
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April B
Ok…um… Christianity came from Judaism. Judaism came from Zoroastrianism. Zoroastrianism came from Vedic Hinduism. Can someone correct me if I’m wrong?
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Russel A. Kester
April, I was suspicious of your link between Judaism and Zoroastrianism because I've read about both in my past readings and there are significant differences. Though I do think that some of the earliest Hebrews brought various religious beliefs with them as they coalesced into a more homogeneous people. So, I asked Google AI to check my understanding and this is what it said, "While some scholars claim that Judaism borrowed from Zoroastrianism, it's difficult to document this influence, especially in the early stages of Judaism. The evidence is circumstantial and doesn't always hold up to scholarly scrutiny. However, it's likely that Zoroastrianism influenced the development of Judaism and Christianity."
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April B
I thought so Russel. I too remember reading about a link. It seems like the natural progression of the history of religion, along with movement of people. It’s always been fascinating to me how ideas are woven throughout different religions and cultures. 🙂
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Russel A. Kester
Indeed! Great conversation. Thank you.
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Pastor George Day
April B,
Yes, you are wrong. Judaism is a systematic development of Kabalah.
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April B
@ Pastor George Day. Actually, Kabbalah is Jewish mysticism.
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Pastor George Day
April B,
Yes, it is. However, it predates systematic Judaism, aka the Torah.
Adam was a Kabalist, but he had no Torah. The same for Enoch and Abraham.
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Michael Lakota
Instead, how about a required course in Comparative Religion and Philosophy? HOW to think, not WHAT think!!!
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Murray Nick Jones
I think any faith, who wishes to, should be allowed (or even compelled to) place the tenets of their faith in Louisiana's classrooms. When I say "any faith" I mean "any." Pastafarianism, Church of Satan (whose tenets are akin, yet superior, to Judeo/Christian Big 10), TOPY, Universal People, etc., et. al. Fair is fair, right? Besides, Christians should realize that since Christ became the new High Priest, he was obliged to present NEW LAW (Matthew 22:36-40). He did so with his two commandments, which superseded the 10 commandments, which in turn, were an aggregate of the 619 +/-previous laws. Therefore, as Jesus said, he didn't come to change the law, but to fulfill it. That means that his life and death completed the contract of the old law (which includes the 10 commandments) and that being the new high priest, he brought new laws, only two of them. James 2:10 states: "If you live by the [old] law and break one of the [old] laws, you are guilty of breaking all of the [old] laws. Tough act to follow, huh? So these self-righteous and pious law makers trying to "stick it to the man" by forcing archaic and irrelevant old laws are simply "crashing cymbals." They are pontificating and using this legislature to distract from their abysmal education ratings, rampant poverty, poor healthcare, and other sins against their constituents. It's all smoke and mirrors so they can say, "Hey, we did something," when they really did nothing at all, worthwhile.
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
In the Christian Heaven the Ten Commandments are all the laws which are required to be followed; and because Heaven is a kingdom with the Christian God as the eternal king, there’s no democracy — which accounts for why GOP Tory wannabe’s want to be ruled by a dictatorial DJT —because Heaven ain’t free — it’s ruled by a dictator who relies only on a Holy Ghost to enforce the Ten Commandments he gave to Moses, merely 2199 years ago.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
Home is where we all come from and return to when we pass. Only dark entities that have rejected God do not return. They are entities like ourselves, not demons that do not exist since there is no hell or Satan. That is one of the churches added in edits to promote controlling the people through fear and manipulation. And even they are not punished. They return to another
life. When this earth can support life no more, they will be returned to the uncreated mass where all souls are created. God loves all His children and never judges or condemns. We judge ourselves as to how well we think we fullfilled the life charts we wrote before reincarnated ing into that life. Then we resume our lives at Home.
The ten commandments have been questioned as to if they existed at all as the bible claimes. It is believed by some to be yet another of the creative editing the publishers of the bible added in. Although being from the OT, they most likely first appeared before the text created by the council of Nicea in 325.-
Pastor George Day
Lori-Ann Neeb,
The Ten Commandments was the first-ever attempt to correct a world gone astray.
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Todd Leslie Miller
What we are looking at is Christians who want to make our country more like Iran. Right now, American Christianity sees itself as being under attack from secularists who want to destroy and get rid of it. You had something similar in Iran in the seventies where the Shah tried to destroy Shia Islam in that country because he wanted to ‘westernize’ his country. The result was the Revolution of 1979, the hostage crisis and the Islamic Republic of Iran which has been far more repressive than anything the Shah could have dreamed of. Far right Christians believe that this is the path to take to ensure that nobody takes their faith away from them.
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Nonnye Lynn Lucky
The problem with many "Christians" is they are not. They mostly want to be What they think are Jews. They have no idea what the new testement says and couldn't care less. Not one person/bot on here who claims to want the 10 commandants up in schools have a clue about the 10 commandants. It they did they would hide themselves and hope never to be noticed. Recommendation be ye person or bot - go read the Bible and pay a little more attention to the new testement. For that matter - if you want to promote the old testement - read it first. Especially the the person/bot on here who claims Allah was a pediophile. You might be a bit surprised at how the god of the Isrealites threated children. Soiler alert - murdering and en slaving them was not only ok but commanded by him.
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Pastor George Day
Nonnye Lynn Lucky,
Some Christians are also Jewish, such as myself.
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Rev. Michelle Love
Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
True, but it extends to Gentiles. You are a Gentile. I am a Jew.
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Walter J. Holbrook
Remember, this is not for religious purposes. Is that not what the bill was passed for. The one true faith is Christianity. Now here come the "salt" this is why the founding fathers felt a need for separation of church and state. Pandora's Box is open to all sorts of religious faiths that will fight to be represented in schools. Remember that constitutional law of freedom of speech and also to practice religious freedom. .
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Walter J. Holbrook
Remember, this is not for religious purposes. Is that not what the bill was passed for. The one true faith is Christianity. Now here come the "salt" this is why the founding fathers felt a need for separation of church and state. Pandora's Box is open to all sorts of religious faiths that will fight to be represented in schools. Remember that constitutional law of freedom of speech and also to practice religious freedom. .
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Marion Elizabeth Kafka
I don’t remember Jesus saying that in that way. I could be wrong. What draws people to Christianity is observing people that live their lives for Christ. Who knows whose eyes would be opened, hearts stirred. We need to make every opportunity count. And satan, well he will always be there no matter from where it comes. That is way prayer is so important. It is the most powerful weapon. I understand your fears, but fear can cripple us. Jesus wants us to live with joy not fear. Satan can bind a person with fear, but faith and walking with God will set that person free.
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Mrknowitall
We’re a Christian nation, Hindus can suck it
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Michael Lakota
(ahem) The first sentence in the first amendment to the constitution of the united states of america is "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" Plain english, easy to understand.
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Rev. Michelle Love
Daniel Ginther,
What an elegant way to add to the conversation. Bravo...
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Pastor George Day
Daniel Ginther,
Indeed! Well said!
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William Lewis Vass
I find this whole thing ridiculous. The ten commandments is a historical document for the US? That's just a load of crap. It holds no historical value for the US. Stop trying to push this country backwards. This is a time to be moving forward, to becoming more enlightened. The ten commandments is of historical value for the Jewish people. I say if the christians get what they want then every religion should be able to put up their own "historical" documents. Hence why there is religious freedom in the US. If you go back in time you will find the original pledge of allegiance had no reference to god and our monetary system didn't have in god we trust printed on coins and bills. Stop trying to make christianity a national religion or we will end up just like the countries that have national religion. If you want a tyrannical leader who strips away your rights then I suggest you move to north korea.
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Marion Elizabeth Kafka
The Bible is never outdated. Within its pages there are all the answers you could ever want. One just needs to look. And, I agree that all religions or lack of should be equally respected. I read a quote once, if I have lived my life for God then I will be welcomed into my father’s house. If what I have believed turns out to be untrue, then it is only my life that has been wasted. I hurt no other with my beliefs and don’t believe in pushing it on to others. If all cannot be accepted/respected then there should not be any in school. I would like to see it in schools but others beliefs cannot be ignored. Change comes from within not without.
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taycomama
Perhaps a compromise is in order. All religions seem to agree on stealing, murder, and false witness, and adultery depending how you define it. So just post those four. The remainder - Sabath, graven images, other gods etc. are strictly religious and therefore unconstitutional.
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Pastor George Day
taycomama,
Exactly how do you define adultery?
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Rev. Michelle Love
The Bible considers adultery marrying a previously married woman or a widow, especially the former spouse of a sibling. I believe taycomama was pointing out that adultery does not carry the same definition now as it did back then.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
Wrong again.
Adultery entailed taking a married woman since women were considered property. Only with Christianity the same was extended to taking a married man.
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Bernie James Rocheleau
I'm a high school social studies teacher and here's the main problem with this law.., the mandate. Our principle historical documents, the Constitution, Declaration of Independence and others are not "required" to be posted in classrooms. By making it mandatory, they have taken an "historical" (their word, not mine) document and definitely made it religious nationalism.
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Samuel R. Williams
The "10 commandments" are the basis for civil law in civilized countries. Students should be aware of them.
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Lady Mutt Cat
Absolutely! And I hope that Witches are demanding The Charge of the Goddess be put on those same walls.
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Russel A. Kester
The Charge of the Goddess is not part of our Western heritage and, therefore, does not belong on the classroom walls.
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Ari Joseph Bertine
Starhawk's "The Spiral Dance", for which she wrote the base The Charge Of The Goddess recognized as a cornerstone of modern Wicca, revolutionized the religious landscape for American Neopagans three generations ago. It established the link between feminism and witchcraft, which has been studied, celebrated and integrated into common American culture. It has spawned family traditions, college courses, countless pagan churches, and been integrated into pop culture. It qualifies as part of our Western heritage, by definition and spirit.
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Russel A. Kester
Ari, I read Starhawk's book back in my 20's, but that doesn't make it part of our Western heritage. And, yes, many, if not all, of the earliest practitioners of Wicca were feminists. But that is not enough to give the Charge of the Goddess equal classroom space with a code of law written somewhere where between 2,500 and 3,500 years ago. The Charge of the Goddess didn't form an important part of the beliefs of three major religious faiths that literally changed the course of world history. There is no comparison.
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Richard Faust
Disappointment is inevitable, Misery is optional
We all have disappointments in life. We get disappointed with ourselves, disappointed with other people, disappointed in what life is throwing at us. But, we can overcome these feelings of disappointment. But, only if we let Christ into our daily lives, leaning on His guiding and trusting His plans for our life.
While we can't all avoid disappointment, we can effectively deal with it. Jesus even tells us in John 16:33 that 'in this world you will have trouble.' So, even though we find it hard to deal with disappointments, we are told in the Bible to trust God in His promises to us. The hardest part is, trusting Him when His plans don't make sense to us.
The alternative is to be miserable and to give into worry and depression.
When we can recognize God's goodness, even in our disappointment, we begin to really know God. It all comes down to a choice. Trust God or worry and be in misery.
Psalm 34:18; The Lord is near to those who have a broken heart, And saves such as have a contrite spirit. We often wish we could escape troubles – the pain of grief, loss, sorrow, or even the small daily frustrations that constantly wear us down. God promises to be our source of power, courage, and wisdom, helping us through our problems. Sometimes he chooses to deliver us from those problems. When trouble strikes, don’t get frustrated with God. Instead, admit that you need Gods help and thank him for being by your side. John 16:33; These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.” Jesus summed up all he had told his disciples this night, tying together themes from (John, 14:27-29; 16:1-4, and 16:9-11). With these words he told his disciples to take courage. In spite of the inevitable struggles they would face, they would not be alone. Jesus does not abandon us to our struggles either. If we remember that the ultimate victory has already been won, we can claim the peace of Christ in the most troublesome of times.
When Disappointment comes: Don't let misery take over.
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Richard Faust
Can I go to India and have the Bible put in all areas where their Holy Book is? What about the Muslim world or the Buddhist's or any other predominate religion in some other country. One nation Under God/ In God We Trust / etc.
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William Lewis Vass
That one nation under god didn't exist until the 20th century as well as the in god we trust. This nation and it's founding fathers wrote the Constitution and the Bill of Rights without religious bias. We all have the freedom to follow our own beliefs without christians constantly trying to force their doctrine down our throats.
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Pastor George Day
Richard Faust,
Your question is very interesting indeed. Christians are persecuted and even imprisoned and killed in the countries you mentioned.
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Rev Morse
This is the USA, not India. Most Americans have never heard of what they want to put up, but they have the ten commandments.
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Rev. Michelle Love
This is true, but whatever happened to the separation of church and state?
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
The First Amendment has more to do with avoiding denominational privileges than dealing with Judeo-Christianity a large. I'm a Sealander living in the UK. In the UK we have an established church in each of the constituent countries (England: Church of England; Scotland: Church of Scotland; Wales: Church of Wales; Northern Ireland; Church of Ireland). In Sealand, we have an interfaith chapel. In the US Judeo-Christianity is the religion of the Pilgrim Fathers, but no denomination gets to be established.
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Rev. Michelle Love
Pastor Day,
The First Amendment is all about freedom, whether it be for speech, press, assembly, religion, or petition. Knowing that the separation of church and state is a motto our government has lived by for years, I highly doubt that what you wrote is true.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
What exactly isn't true?
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Rev. Michelle Love
I'm not going to spell it out for you. Either keep up with the conversation or move on.
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Peter Couldwell
Comment has been removed.
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Nonnye Lynn Lucky
Are you being facicious? Islam is a religion AND Allah is the name of the same god as the Jews and christians's God.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Scary, isn't it? Lol!
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Rev. Michelle Love
Christianity is an ideology that subscribes to the belief that only one person should be crucified for the sins of many. For this reason, this should be refused.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
Your reasoning is so crooked, I feel so sorry for you!
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Rev. Michelle Love
Pastor Day,
If you pay close attention, you will notice that a comment was removed. I will give you grace and assume that is the reason why you took my comment out of context even though I feel it was done deliberately because you have attempted to discredit almost every post I have made on this website.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
It's called freedom of opinion.
Bingo!
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Rev Ned
Louisiana is 47th in education. The kids probably can’t read them anyway.
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Richard Faust
Something that would come from a Bigot or Racist. Why are you blaming the children?
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Lady Mutt Cat
Nothing bigoted or racist in that comment. Why are you attacking a perfectly valid opinion?
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Pastor George Day
Lady Mutt Cat,
Because it simply makes no sense.
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Rev. Michelle Love
I don't think that Rev Ned is blaming the children for receiving a poor education. They can't help that they live in a state that is ravaged by hurricanes almost every year. People are more focused on survival than education and I believe that the funding the Louisiana school system receives directly correlates to this fact.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
OK. But would imagine that can still read and write!
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Rev. Michelle Love
I'm sure they can do the basics, but how much else will they be able to learn when they are being forced to sit in overcrowded classrooms and being taught from outdated textbooks? Add to the fact that many students in Louisiana come from impoverished homes. How well are you able to focus on your studies when your stomach is audibly growling?
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Ashley D.
As a Christian minister and Master of Ministry student, I am absolutely horrified and embarrassed by the number of comments here that don’t display any grace, humility or love!
What American Christians seem to have forgotten, is that Christianity is based on Christology, following the teachings of Christ. His command was clear, love. I see so little in American Christians. Every conversation seems to turn nasty…
Obviously this is a generalisation, but as an outsider looking in, I pray that there will be more grace, humility and love.
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April B
I totally agree with you. I’m glad someone still follows Mark 12:30,31. All one can do is lead by example.
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Pastor George Day
Ashley D.,
BINGO!
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Russel A. Kester
Bagavad Gita is not part of our Western heritage. It doesn't get equal billing as an historical document. But by all means it should be in school libraries.
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Pastor George Day
Russel A. Kester,
Thanks for pointing out what is appropriate and what is not according to wisdom :-)!
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Jimmy Moon
This is America, not India. KJV HOLY BIBLE only. ALL others are false gods with a little g.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
according to you, but to over a billion indians there GODs are real. why do get to decided who's religion is acceptable and whose isn't?
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Amber Fry
Neither was Christianity originally but, hey... here we go.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
there is no hate like Christian hate!
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
There is no hate like Christian "love".
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Lori-Ann Neeb
A christian with a good spiritual heart that follows in God's true wish for us to love each other without regard for religion or race could show genuine love. Most fundamentals and Conservatives have ruined the word from the meaning that may have once been intended. The word is all to often associated with hate, judgment and violence to anyone who does not think exactly as they do.
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Pastor George Day
Lori-Ann Neeb,
I would agree with you on this. Not many Christians have done a good job of representing the name they bear!
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Lionheart
Is there a real God then, and if so, can you demonstrably prove your claim?
🦁❤️
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Richard Faust
The answer will come in death, so roll the dice or flip the coin. I know where my resting place will be. Praying you find Him
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Rev. Michelle Love
You don't have to wait until death to find your answer. Study your Bible very closely and consistently and you will never again doubt the existence of God.
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart,
Do you have another set of questions?
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Lady Mutt Cat
And your nasty desert warrior god is the only real one? IF that's true, I'd rather be an atheist.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
God never has anything to do with the atrocities or crimes men commit against each other here. That is all on the people that commit them . I wish you the best and that you find any answers you want.
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Rev. Michelle Love
Are you saying that the New King James Version of the Holy Bible should not be considered? It was updated for a reason...
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Lori-Ann Neeb
why not? The ten commandments have been questioned as one of the many discrepancies in the bible. It is much more likely that Moses saw his people misbehaving and wrote the stones himself. several of the supposed commandments are very similar to Egyptian counterparts and Moses was raised Egyptian so would have known them to use as reference. God would never say He wanted his children to fear Him. He loves unconditionally. That alone is a red flag that they were not transcribed or written by God. But a pissed Moses hoping to scare the people to his version of straight might have said exactly that. So if that fiction is supposed to be mandatory then they should include all literature from all faiths and let the people choose what they want to keep or lose in their personal beliefs
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Pastor George Day
Lori-Ann Neeb,
You are confusing reverent fear with False Evidence Appearing Real (F.E.A.R.).
The Bible never refers to human fear, but awesome respect towards God - something we need more today!
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Rev. Michelle Love
Pastor Day,
I was taught that fear stood for "fantasized experiences appearing real." It is interesting to see another meaning for this acronym.
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Colleen McAllister
No, the 10 Commadments should not be posted in public schools. Period. However. If is then all other religions should be allowed to post similar tenets of their own faith.
FYI I am a Christian, evangelical, Jesus loving, Bible believing.
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Daniel Gray
And the SCOTUS has already ruled that it CAN be taught in schools. KNow what you speak of BEFORE you start to speak SCOTUS Engle v Vitale 1962
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
Nope! you are wrong and you should know what you speak of BEFORE you speak Engle vs Vitale 1962
"Citing Engel, the Court held that school-sponsored Bible reading constituted government endorsement of a particular religion, and thus violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. Public schools may not prohibit student religious groups from meeting on school grounds after hours."
"In his concurrence, Justice Douglas took an even broader view of the Establishment Clause, arguing that any type of public promotion of religion, including giving financial aid to religious schools, violates the Establishment Clause. "
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James Riggle-Johnson
Thank you Father JJ. Finally someone actually looked at the ruling.
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Michael Hunt
She never questioned whether you could or couldn't, just that she believes they should not be. Why so rude?
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Lori-Ann Neeb
Then the country needs new judges. as mentioned before what you are trying to push is the same as cult leaders like David Karesh and Jim jones. they knew your Bible better than mist others. what is your favorite kool aide flavor?
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Amber Fry
A severely corrupt SCOTUS.
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Pastor George Day
Colleen McAllister,
I am also an evangelical, and I disagree with you. It is the Ten Commandments that have shaped our society.
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Edward D Torres
Creationism, the God Hypothesis, Intelligent Design have a higher scientific probability over Evolution. Atheism no God of Creation is a Religion. Secular Humanism is Religion no need for God for one Moment of Silence. History is divided by birth of Jesus in History Books. Every State in the Union recognizes a God of Creation in their Preambles to their Constitutions. American Settlements built Christian Churches to establish their Communities and send Representatives from the Church Leadership that wrote the US Constitution and State Constitution. God Bless America the people of the Bible spreading the Truth of God.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
please prove your statement "Creationism, the God Hypothesis, Intelligent Design have a higher scientific probability over Evolution." otherwise it's just silly nonsense (and I suspect you have no clue what you even mean by 'probability'.
p.s. I wonder how many days this comment will take before it gets approved
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ServantOfJudgement
Edward's use of the word probability is probably this:
The explosion we call the big bang and the resulting perfect cosmos along with flawless self replicating life leading to a super creature from mud that called himself mankind in is akin to saying the entire Encyclopedia Britannica resulted from a printing press explosion. Probably not how we got the encyclopedia and probably not how we got here. Probably both were assembled by design.
Your posts won't get blocked if your nicer when you insult. You're not getting censored because of your philosophy, it's most likely your vernacular. Weekend posts can take a loooong time to approve.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
I find it odd that some people feel compelled to speak for others. danny has his wits, I'll wait and see if he responds as opposed to the self-appointed such as yourself.
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Daniel Todd Kamm
I do have my wits, thank you, and as a social scientist with a penchant for psychology, history and archaeology, I have an appreciation for finding answers to many questions.
It's interesting how we all read things through our own lenses.
That said, I would like to recommend an interview I overheard today on NPR on a series of socially based studies that were conducted to try to understand why people believe in conspiracy theories and worse, outright misinformation.
What was interesting to the study coordinators and the point they had to re-test multiple (I think 6 times) to verify their findings as closely as possible, was that individuals who sought to independently verify information on their own were more likely to access inferior websites, wrong information, and then accepting that information instead of looking at the sources of the information, verifying the legitimacy of the agent distributing the information, etc.
I am all for independent inquiry, but then that is why they call it independent inquiry.
But if this result holds true, it would be best if we all test the waters of whatever it is to we hold to be true before we immerse ourselves in it and wind up like the people caught up in a flood who prayed to G-d to save them and after potential rescuers passed, drowned, and then were angry at G-d... who of course said... "I sent ....
Blind faith and faulty inquiry is the true path to the blind leading the blind...straight to the hell some people believe in... I'm Jewish... we have no hell... so those who believe something else can chew on that one too.
And as for the references to leeches... these are still being used and explored scientifically... as are maggots and lots of other gross things... including psychodelics... madam...do some homework... but make sure you verify your sources!
Peace Out, Reb tk
Thank you Rev Dr. Father JJ for your comments.
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Russel A. Kester
Daniel, you wrote, "individuals who sought to independently verify information on their own were more likely to access inferior websites". So, you think people should turn to the professionals like social scientists to give them the truth because the man in the street just can't seem to get it right on their own? Since your source for this insight was NPR, a left-wing and very woke source, perhaps the advice you gave is not very good as you seem to put too much blind faith in a poor source for accurate and truthful information.
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Michael Hunt
NPR, despite being center left, has a history of accurate reporting, making them a good source. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/npr/
You're doing a great job at proving Daniel's point.
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Russel A. Kester
Michael, your statement that NPR is center left was true once upon a time but not today. In this response from Google AI notice what this senior NPR reporter's opinion about NPR was that got him fired, "NPR has suspended Senior Editor Uri Berliner after he wrote an essay accusing the public radio network of becoming too progressive in its news coverage and losing the public's trust." So, I stand by my statement that NPR is not a reliable source as its reporting is far left and Daniel was unwise to rely on a report from NPR advising that people are not smart enough to research information on their own.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
That may be so but do not use unrelated facts to the spirit of the statement as a way to avoid that train of thought intended. But I expect those afraid to address the real issue by deflection when they have no answer to the real question. The statement refered to the time in history when they were used as a cure-all for anything and everything doctors do not understand yet. Do you research on the concept of deflection as avoidance and cognitive dissonance. How is that for psychology for you?
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Lori-Ann Neeb
The Bible has nothing to do with any of that. it is a book published by the corrupt church in power at the time to forward it's own agenda to control and manipulate the people. they picked and chose what they wanted to include and edited that even further until it all fit their plans.
That book should be considered separate from any sense of true faith and spirituality. And the fact that people have allowed it to influence so much throughout history just means they bought into the Catholic convert or be tortured and killed line too. Read some real history on the inquisitions and atrocities committed by the church. The history of the Vatican is some interesting reading too.-
Thomas P. Davis
From what I understand, King James solved the problem of churches competing against each other to butter him up, by placing them all together to write a book that they all had to agree on. Thus, preventing one group from instilling their personal beliefs in their version.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
If he would have done that then all texts would have been included without editing and the book made available to all by educating the mass population s to read instead of picking and choosing according to their own agendas then giving the church total control forcing the people to think they needed the churches approval for every single thing. The church has always had its own agendas based on greed and power. That is why priests can not be married now. In the middle ages or so priests married and had families. Then the money counters decided married priests used more funds and their children created inheritance issues with properties the church wanted to keep for themselves. History about the church and bible is not pretty.
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Pastor George Day
Lori-Ann Neeb,
Nonsense again. Married priests have always been around and still are. It just depends on what church tradition you belong to!
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Lori-Ann Neeb
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Clerical_celibacy_in_the_Catholic_Church&action=edit&section=1 I do believe you prove my theory on cognitive dissonance repeatedly in your responses. Your mind is so focused on your small, and narrow minded views that you try to refute anything you do not like with baseless remarks. you took the fact that a few exceptions have been made for married males that converted from some Lutheran, Anglican or protestant faiths as some sort of blanket proof that I was wrong and you. of course. we're correct.
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Pastor George Day
Lori-Ann Neeb,
My point was that you made a general statement leading to a conjecture which is disproven by married clergy.
I am not Catholic and as far as I go, my jurisdictional clergy is here in ULC, although I operate with another denomination.
It's always bad to generalize. The practice of celibacy is a discipline that leads to inner freedom. I have chosen it as a way of life and I can tell you it is refreshing.
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Thomas P. Davis
Nothing wrong with celibacy, but I think of the words of scripture. In one place it says it is not good for man to be alone. In another Paul says it is better to be single because you have more time for the Lord. He also says it is better to be married than burn. I think of my first marriage that failed. We went to a priest for help, and he sincerely apologized because he could not help us because he knew nothing about the married life. Plus, how much this added to the pedophile situation, I do not know. That priest I mentioned earlier later left the church and married one of the nuns. Thinking of that reminds me of all the baby skulls that were found in the lake outside of the convent in Rome years ago. ???? uhm wonder where how that came to be.
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Pastor George Day
Lori-Ann Neeb,
What nonsense. The Bible is not a product of the Catholic Church. Study some history before blunting such statements!
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Rev. Michelle Love
The Bible is a Jewish document that was translated into English at the request of Anne Boleyn, former Queen of England who was a practitioner of the Catholic faith.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
These two lines alone get to prove your complete lack of elementary knowledge of biblical theology.
The New Testament is Greek, not Hebrew. And the Bible, including seven Apocrypha, was translated into Latin by St Jerome - that's the Vulgate. That is the translation that became controversial in the Reformation era because some keywords were translated wrong - ex penance instead of repentance.
The first who translated the Bible into German was LUther, during his captivity at Warbour Castle. Then Tyndale also translated the Bible into English, and that is what Ann Boleyn used to read. She was a devout Protestant.
Go and check.
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Daniel Todd Kamm
The USA wasn't founded on christian principals... or religion at all... it was founded on enlightenment and capitalist ideals of the rich and influential of their time. These were educated, upper and middle class people who took the reigns and created the revolution that we now hold so "dear."
These were not, as a whole. religious people. They believed in science and philosophy. But like everything else in life, it was messy.
Everyone else was dragged into it via incitement (propaganda) or conscription. Which was hard to get out of if one was an indentured servant at the time. Wasn't so great during Vietnam either...!
Certainly some people fled the tyranny of the abundant abusive euro-christian-religious institutions in their own times... but they get way too much credit for that as a reason for founding principles except as a justification for those principals and the establishing of a "paper trail" so to speak... by those who cam later on... not to mention, a holiday tradition that's been elevated to a status higher than any religious tradition ever was... my G*d those airports at Thanksgiving!
But those people fleeing from the endless slaughter that was Europe at the time came here long after euros had already invaded, exploited , enslaved and virtually eliminated through various means the peoples and resources they found here.
Religion was simply one of many tools they used to justify themselves, which was no different than what was going on in europe at the time... and both still managed a profit.
Later on with the "founding" of the US, the separation of church and state was essential... the founders knew what trouble religion could be, especially to the bottom line... and they knew religion was a powerful force in the hands of the uneducated and the reckless ... they knew that crazy people could very easily undermine their new club and general prosperity.
So they carved out a place for prosperity and they carved out a place for religion. And never the twain should have met until the 700 Club and eventually Jim and Tammy Faye came along....
Unfortunately, some can't tell the difference between these ideals. It's hard when one's mascara is running down one's face while begging for money....
Still I have to take issue with statements such as:
"Because GOD did not approve of anything Hindu unless they converted. The US was founded on Christian principals. Thusly, we should honor our SAVIOR, LORD CHRIST JESUS, and HIS FATHER. Amen"
I would like to add that there was a mother in there someplace, after that father's hit and run... typical of so many fathers.... which is why there is family court and child support....
And lastly and sadly...
I would like to acknowledge several tragedies that have occurred this week here in our city... two of our local Jewish cemeteries were vandalized again this week... 180 or so headstones knocked over broken, etc... and several of our neighborhoods have been targeted this past week with anti LGBTQ+/- XYXPDQ etc. , antisemetic, KKK and right-wing christian propaganda ... right now, they are hitting most of the progressive neighborhoods, the universities, etc...of course....
Apparently they did not learn the ideals behind the Ten Commandments....
Similarly this ideal:
"Because GOD did not approve of anything Hindu unless they converted. The US was founded on Christian principals. Thusly, we should honor our SAVIOR, LORD CHRIST JESUS, and HIS FATHER. Amen"
G*d grant ya'll peace...
Reb tk
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Lori-Ann Neeb
why are any of you so stuck on what people 250 years ago said or did as it is apparently supposed to matter now? these same people also murdered suspected witches and technology and science were from the time in history also. they treated people with leeches. So if what they said or did as people of their time, would you rather your doctor kept a jar of leeches in his or her office too?
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Amber Fry
We are talking about the way this country was started. Medicine does continue to improve over the years based in testing and facts and has switched to transfusions so that blood drained is replaced by more. Even making sure blood types match has improved that. Now can we please stick to the main topic? This country was set up with specific guidelines in place. You don't have to like them but it is a fact. It was also given a way to change those guidelines by majority rule. The majority has not yet given up on forcing a very specific religion on the whole. If people actually educate themselves on our country it's development as well as how it's governance has developed they would better understand freedom to believe and practice as you see fit VS forcing everyone else to follow along according to your personal belief. The history of the bible and other religious books might also be a good idea. A little more understanding and a lot less demanding does everyone a world of good.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
And yet a narcissistic Nazi wannabe perv initiated an attack on this nations capital for the first time in this countries history by an excuse for an elected official and should be in a federal prison with all other terrorists, yet there are still people refusing to see what he is and most of them backward thinkers trying to bring back outdated and bigoted attitudes like those of the founding fathers. they had an excuse. they were people of their times with the development level available to them. Those of us in these more advanced times do not have that excuse.
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Daniel Gray
and your whole post is historically inaccurate.
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Michael Hunt
Without any sources, that's just your OPINION!
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
Nice one Michael.
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ServantOfJudgement
Daniel,
90-98% of the colonials were Christian which brought us this profound statement.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
This bold statement sets our creator on center stage, above any man or government. It the driving force and justification for defiance against tyranny.
We most certainly were founded on biblical principles with its author center stage.
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Lady Mutt Cat
Yes. "All men". At the time that didn't include women or black folks. Do you really want to dredge that racist, misogynistic stuff up as an exemplar?
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Amber Fry
Yes, but that is from the declaration of Independence, not the constitution. We live by the constitution.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
I guess that could explain why some of these "Christian" people owned slaves until a war was fought to free them.
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James Mounts
Is "The Ten Commandments" displayed in schools in India?
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Rev. Michelle Love
If so, they were probably displayed in schools erected by British colonizers that were there doing missionary work trying to convert the local pagans to Christianity. If this is correct, this may explain why they would want equal representation themselves.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
In India, left to their own devices, they have a caste system. I'm not sure they would value the Golden Rule or the Ten Commandments!
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Rev. Michelle Love
Caste system, class system. It's all the same. Good thing the British intervened because the caste system has been abolished in India. Maybe they should come here to America and help us abolish classes so that our government can prove their assertion that all men are created equal.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
The American system is based on capitalism, not innate caste conditions. Again, you seem a bit uneducated on the matter.
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Rev. Michelle Love
Pastor Day,
While I concede that the American system is based on capitalism, classes are created when we start dividing people based on how much money they bring into their households. The fact that the IRS only issued stimulus payments to people that fell within a certain income shows that there is, indeed, a division in this country.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
That's true!
Score two :-)
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Theresa C. Marquess
To offer one, you must offer all. I may not agree with all religions, however, I do respect them. Personally, I believe in the Golden Rule. Do unto others...
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Colleen McAllister
Are you aware that the so-called Golden Rule is from the Bible?
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Michael Hunt
Are you aware that most religions, including religions older than Christianity, also include the Golden Rule in them? It's not unique to Christianity.
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Pastor George Day
Michael Hunt,
As a Bible scholar, trust me, your claim is unfounded. The whole Leviticus rules were aimed at improving a world system gone mad!
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Lori-Ann Neeb
Whether that is true or not is immaterial in the big picture. You need to read more texts and broaden your mind . The bible was published by a corrupt church of the time and is inaccurate in many places. It needs to be read with an open and inquisitive mind. Be very careful not to get too stuck in your own narrow minded interpretation. Remember David Karesh and other cultists. He memorized the bible, called himself a prophet and had followers too. Remember that little WACO incident?
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Pastor George Day
Lori-Ann Neeb,
I know well the WACO story as well as Johnstow and similar notorious ones.
My point is that these scriptures that make up the Torah are far back than the Catholic institution. Modern-day translators do a responsible job of translating the texts through committees that are supervised by accredited scholars.
I would be careful with cheap claims.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
You both and your mutual admiration posts claiming the right and narrow mindedness to declare anyone disagreeing with you as "anti-christian is your problem and the problem that constantly feeds the hate and judgement. You have no right to assume anything about the state of my faith or spirituality. You should at a minimum do me the same curtesy as i do you and the rest of the bible thumpers in that i respect your right to have your opinions. Talking of cheap claims coming from you just plain takes nerve and is quite funny. And yet another attempt to avoid any question you don't like with deflection. If you have an intelligent reply to the questions posed give it or shut up and not try to use your insults and avoidance of the actual question to think you are building yourself up by putting me down. And need to be earned about my so called cheap claims why? I dee nothing to fear from anykne who cant face any questions he doesnt have any answers to give me..
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Pastor George Day
Lori-Ann Neeb,
You also have quite a cheap on your shoulder!
Where do you even get all this stuff about me? I'm simply exercising my right to reply in this group.
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Diane Minna LaFave
The schools should teach about all Faiths . And, yes , all Faiths should be able to display whatever that pertains to their Faith. I was educated about many Faiths in the 10th grade. IMO, it should also be taught earlier .
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Pamela Kay Waters
Not religion should be kept out of schools and more teaching on bullying and respectfulness. Just because of the difference religions that are practiced here.
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
Unless it's a mythology class, religion doesn't belong in public schools.
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Daniel Gray
Says who? SCOTUS has ruled time and time again that it does.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
And where is your proof that they know what they are doing? David Karesh memorized your Bible and called himself a prophet. He had plenty of followers too.
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Robert James Ruhnke
And someday soon, it can be struck down. You act like laws don’t or can’t change. Once these traitorous and clearly hyper biased judges are gone, better ones can replace their corruption.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Not many people have trust in SCOTUS these days, Daniel. They have their own personal agenda's that have nothing to do with law.
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Chris
Absolutely. Since this never was supposed to be a "Christian" nation, with the First Amendment flat out forbidding a National Religion, the 10 Commandments don't belong in public schools. However, if the Christian Nationalists are forcing it, then it opens the door for other religious beliefs as well. Hindu, Muslim, Pagan, all religions should be represented so the students can study about them as well. And if they demand their bible be taught in public schools the only way it should be taught is as any other piece of literature. It is not a textbook, it does not belong in public schools, but if these people are going to demand religious rights, it needs to pertain to all, not just theirs.
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Zekester
Agreed 100%
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amacooke
I think its a wonderful idea. Every person in any country should learn about everyone's chosen religion. Perhaps the world would be a more tolerant place.
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
I find it odd that you think religion would result in more tolerance. My experience is religion is harmful to women, minority groups, to those who do not share a specific, narrow version of christianity, and especially to the LGBTQIA2S+ community.
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Pastor George Day
Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox,
How about the LGMCCBTDWX+-x:/\= community?
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Rev. Michelle Love
I believe that world religions should be taught as a social studies unit for credit towards humanities. They will not be preached to in this class but informed of what other religions that are out there so that a student can make an informed decision on what faith they want to follow instead of blindly following their parents religion, assuming they even subscribe to one.
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Daniel Gray
Um no, your whole claim is utter hogwash. The ONLY thing that you got right is that the founding fathers didnt want a national religion, the rest of your claim has been historically proved wrong.
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Amber Fry
Actually no, it really isn't utter hogwash. Legal scholars discuss this sort of thing at length. As for it being hogwash, it's in their agenda. You should read the project 2025 information out on the web as well as what's written about it in many books now.
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Rev. Michelle Love
If this nation was not supposed to be a Christian one, then why does our currency say "In God We Trust" and our Pledge of Allegiance asserts that we are "One nation under God, indivisible"?
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James Riggle-Johnson
Look up when "In God We Trust" and "One Nation under God" were added to currency and the alligence. 1954 for the alligence, and 1950's on Bills, 1864 on coins. None of it had anything to do with the constitution.
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Rev. Michelle Love
I love the timing of these additions to our currency and Pledge of Allegiance. We were in the midst of the Civil War in 1864 and McCarthyism was a threat in the 1950's. I do not think this was a coincidence and believe that it was meant as a way to indoctrinate our country in a way that would reach every man, woman and child that lived here.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
Excellent point!
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Eugene T Rice
Whatever one calls sacred, the Christian bible, the Jewdaic Torah, the Koran, the Mahanaya sutras, or the Harley Davidson owners manual, should remain in one's home. The first words of our bill of rights gaurantee that "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion". The Ten Commandments should not appear in a publicly funded school, lest that indicate a preference to a certain group of believers. The role of a school is to teach the young how to think, not what to think. . .
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John Condron
Bill Sponsor State Sen. Jay Morris is clearly "lying for Jesus (TM)" when she makes the "historical significance" claim. The Hindus will not be the only ones putting her "historical significance" claim to the test by demanding that their holy documents be displayed with equal prominence. If nothing else, the Code of Hammurabi has even greater historical significance than the Ten Commandments. Further, which version will be displayed? Her bill seems to single out one that isn't even a decent translation. How about the Egyptian version on which the Hebrew version was clearly based?
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
As an Oklahoma resident, and with the understanding that Dr.Walters (Oklahoma’s State Superintendent of Education ) is a proud patriotic American; and as ULC bishop, from Broken Arrow, Oklahoma (Oklahoma’s fourth largest city) I’ve recommended that Dr. Walters use the Bible ( which happens to be available from ULC ministries) the patriotic “Thomas Jefferson Bible”and for my fellow ULC clergy persons, I ask them to contact Dr. Walters in this regard, too. Oklahomans who support Bible-reading in the public schools, aren’t aware of the patriotic “Thomas Jefferson Bible” ergo they tend to favor the King James Bible” while unaware that King James was a tyrant, who did everything he could, to promote keeping kings in charge of everything in not only England, but in all of their colonies too. King James was a dictatorial tyrant, who wanted England to eliminate all hopes and expectations for the development of a democracy in the newly developing USA, But, hopefully in terms of the use of the King James Bible, in Oklahoma, there are enough public school students, and parents, who, if the King James Bible is used at all, in public schools, it should be used ina comparative religion-type class, which begins with the Egyptian acknowledgment of the Sun God, then a quick review of Greek and Roman Gods, which morphed into Judeo/ Christian Gods, until science replaced any more need, to continue to personify nature — by referring to nature, as God.
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Daniel Gray
Again you are mistaken. You claim Dr Walters is the state head of Education, but his opinion does not mean squat. According to the McGirt decision in 2020 by the US Supreme Court, it ruled that the "Five Civilized nations" in Oklahoma now according to treaties own over half of the state of Oklahoma" and that INCLUDES Tulsa and Broken Arrow, do not have to follow anything this guy says as he has absolutely no authority over them nor their schools. Each Native American Reservation out there is its own separate nation with its own laws and its on form of government, meaning your false claim of being a Bishop, wont amount to a hill of beans or a butt burp in a high wind. So your opinion wont matter as neither they nor the Five Civilized Nations either will listen to your rantings nor will they have to accept your rantings nor his.
You really need to stop trying to puff up your reputation as its not only not working, it makes you look desperate for attention.
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Amber Fry
Honestly. You cannot insist on proof and then ignore or deny when some is presented. Again, if you cannot understand the difference between belief and fact you really don't have the footing.
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
Anyone who’s unfamiliar with the White European Christian obligation (mandate) to do whatever they need to do (and, this was during the European Inquisition); to both, by any method known, conquer and/or convert — any occupant who’s not already a Christian, to Christianity, and this is the will of the Christian God. Google, then read, the “Doctrine of Discovery” and read it for yourself— then read, and re-read, Manifest Destiny, which every public school student learns from the get go.
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Pastor George Day
Daniel Gray,
He claims to be a bishop from ULC, and that is legitimate. He didn't say he's a bishop of another denomination.
We are a denomination of Universalism, a Christian doctrine of Radical Protestantism that claims the truth is found in all religions.
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Rev. Michelle Love
I would like to argue that The Jefferson Bible was anything but patriotic. All Thomas Jefferson did was create a Cliff's Notes version of the King James version of the Holy Bible by taking excerpts from the text that he thought related his views on religion. In the process, he created a 98 page book that essentially removed any references of what made Jesus remarkable. And seeing that he owned over 600 slaves, that seems to make him a bit of a tyrant himself.
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Shango MasterExorcist, D.D.
I pwesonally prefer the Bagavad Gita. But it is too large to put on a wall.
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Pastor George Day
Shango,
The US Constitution is not founded on the principles of the Bhagavad Gita. Perhaps, you should switch countries :-)
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Rev. Michelle Love
Have you considered the fact that there are many people in this country that were brought here against their will in order to participate in legalize human trafficking? At this point, I would love to collect on the 40 acres and a mule that my ancestors were promised for doing the back-breaking labor that built this country into what it is today. Then we will be able to build our own enclaves to segregate ourselves from people that clearly do not value our contributions to a country that was supposed to be seen as a melting pot of multiple cultures.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
Factually, even slaves embraced Christianity in the US. Christianity played a pivotal role in the fight for freedom from slavery. Check out the story of the Black Moses.
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Rev. Michelle Love
Pastor Day,
First of all, there was only one Moses and he has always been black. Secondly, Christianity was indoctrinated into the slaves the same way they did with the Native Americans. When given the opportunity to choose between going to church or having to work in the fields, I am sure the choice was a simple one. But just because they attended these services doesn't mean that they embraced Christianity. In fact, some slaves used the Bible as a grimoire of sorts and used Psalms to cast spells of protection against their oppressors in a practice they called Hoodoo. The slaves saw the Bible for what it was and it was witchcraft to justify the entrapment and forced labor of innocent people.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
Again you elaborate your conjectures without any factual historical backing.
I refer you to the story of Blck Moses again in the abolitionist era. It will explain things as they truly were.
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Rev. Michelle Love
Apparently Hoodoo was not covered at any of the three institutions that you are currently enrolled at. Try reading a book or looking it up on Google if you can't afford a library card.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
Whatever!
I know about Hoodoo. That is all you seem to know about. The story is far more entangled than that.
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Johnny Mac
Because GOD did not approve of anything Hindu unless they converted. The US was founded on Christian principals. Thusly, we should honor our SAVIOR, LORD CHRIST JESUS, and HIS FATHER. Amen
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Zekester
I feel ALL mythology should be taught to some extent in schools. Wether Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Celtic, Hindu, Buddhist, Wiccan or Judeo-Christian. It's all just mythology. Very important to see the growth and ideals of humanity throughout history. And they all have some bearing on society today. Why not?
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Rev. Michelle Love
I agree that all mythology should be taught at some extent in schools as long as the subject content is appropriate for students. I believe the reason why so many people who have actually read the Bible are opposed to having it taught in classrooms is because it touches on subjects such as murder, adultery and prostitution. And while these topics may have bearing in society today, there are some subjects that should be taught by educators and others by parents or guardians.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
The Bible is a history of recovery and redemption, which you have no notion about.
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Rev. Michelle Love
Judge not lest ye be judged, Pastor Day, as you don't know me from Adam, so don't presume to know what I do or do not know about the Bible
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
I only go by what you posted.
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Rev. Michelle Love
Then I suggest that you go back and read my post again.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
Done. Same nonsense.
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Rev. Michelle Love
You must have gone to school in New Mexico.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
Actually, no. I'm a student at three different institutes, about t graduate one :-)
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Rev. Michelle Love
Educational ones?
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
You have a beautiful name. Just act accordingly.
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Pastor George Day
Zekester,
Jewish history has archeological evidence. It's not mythology.
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Rev. Michelle Love
While Jewish history may have archeological evidence, the purpose of mythology is to retell this evidence in a manner that will protect the privacy of the descendants of the people mentioned in either the Bible or the Torah.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
The Torah is part of the Bible.
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Rev. Michelle Love
The Bible is an English translation of the Torah.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
More nonsense. You speak of things you know nothing about.
Byblos (Greek) = books (not translation)
Take a Greek grammar class :-)
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Rev. Michelle Love
Pastor Day,
When all else fails, resort to quibbling over semantics. People often try to do that with me when they have nothing else to stand on. Do yourself a favor and stand down. You and I have nothing else to discuss on this forum.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
Not until you get some good educational accreditation on the matters you wish to discuss in this monastery.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
Explain your demented reasons for the many documented myths very similar to biblical allegories that predate the Bible by many centuries. look up how many versions of great flood myths as just one example that predate the Bible considerably. this may be a diversion from the quesion specified but describes your attitude of automatically dismissing anything that disagrees with your views. when Constantine gathered people to create a book that fit his agenda in 325 the council of Nicea, the major factions all rallied to have their faith declared the official faith for his book and establishment of an official church. Whoever won knew they would get the funds and patrons from butts in the seats of their churches added to the recognition alone. The Roman Catholics won and the rest is history. they put out the book that fit their agendas . in many cases when they edited in allegories, they just tweaked already existing myths and legends which is why the great flood allegory mimics other much older flood myths. the intention was a simple "do what we say or God will get mad again and you know what happened the last time He got mad.". God is God and I believe in Him very much. I just know your Bible, which was published by men with agendas, is inaccurate in many places .
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Rev. Michelle Love
The Bible is inaccurate in many places and that is done by design. It is a test of people's discernment which you clearly lack as you deem it necessary to claim my rationale is demented.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
apologies. we may have gotten some wires cross it was meant as a reply to the hon . Mr Gray as he automatically dismissed maybe.gamily and his retweß. he is as welcome to. his beliefs as we all are. he just get too judgmental about it out of hand because it disagrees with him. specifically his believe that there is no connection between the bible and Catholic church. Again apologies for the mixed signalsbme.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
The inaccurate books in the Bible are only the Apocrypha - which is not canonical according to Jewish authority. As for the scientific accuracy of it, it said the earth was round even before the Catholics excommunicated Galileo. Like yourself, they didn't know the Bible either.
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Rev. Michelle Love
Pastor Day,
Which one of the three institutes you are currently "studying" with taught you this? Are these the same people that taught you that Galileo was excommunicated because the earth was flat? If so, I would recommend you get your money back pronto.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
I won't respond to your provocations from now on. I just think you are frustrated at my actual accurate knowledge of this stuff. You have a problem, and I suggest you sort it out :-)
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Pastor George Day
Post Reply Lori-Ann Neeb's AvatarLori-Ann Neeb,
Biblical stories match Mesopotamian ones because they all have a record of things passed on by memory. That's not exactly the way you describe it. As for Constantine, he was not dealing with the Bible but seeking a Christological definition that would end the controversies over myaphistism, Arianism, and similar in the first century. He didn't know the Torah and rejected the Jewish roots of our faith. He wanted a Christianity that would define his empire.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
that does not explain why so many outdate the bible by so many centuries. or the mindlessness of some of the allegories edited in by the church and Vatican until a pipe declared no more edits or changes ever be made to it. As it stands now so much has been edited in or out or altered that you are lucky if any of it resembles even the pile Constantine approved. Amuse me with your cognitive dissonance amon just these two examples the Adam and Eve myth. where did their son's get their wives? even if you throw Adam and Eve as parents in for you know what's and giggles and say they had children. there was a crapton of incest going on to try to create a human species. But with so few to start a gene pool, what survived childhood would have been poor. deformed looking individuals too unhealthy to create a viable human species that we know did exist. The same with the Noah's ark myth. we are supposed to believe that one man and his family build this huge boat and gathered two of every animal. most of whom existed in parts of the earth that Noah had no clue existed Ted because his people never traveled that far yet. then that one family housed fed and cleaned up after all those animal by themselves. One family could have worked 24 hours a day every day and not been able to manage it . and who kept that carnivore from munching on the herbivores. it would have been like shooting fish in a barrel for them . then came the great touch down. one man and his family repopulated the earth? those people sure lived their incest, didn't they. even then again so few people trying to make up a gene pool would have created another deformed, sickly few to create a viable species again. and only two of every animal never would have replenished the animals . they would have died out too. the only logical answer is that the events never happened. And for so long Mary Magdalene was declared a prostitute by the church. Then they just. said oops... our bad. we were wrong. but that is supposedly ok because it was the Vatican. but. really if they do own up to being wrong about that, how many other "oops" have they not owned up to yet? All churches are manmade and that one has been based on lies for 2000 years. You want to prove me wrong? Fine. Road trip to Vatican City. i am sure they would be happy to give us all the guided tour through their hidden archives.
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Pastor George Day
Lori-Ann Neeb,
Respectfully, the Vatican is not the author of the Bible, not its main interpreter.
You argue things according to your moderndat human condition.
Incest was very common in the early history of humanity. Even Abraham had married his sister Sarah.
Mary of Bethany was known as a loose woman by her people, which is why their family was loved by Jesus - he had a heart for the marginalized. She's the same woman who washed Jesus' feet before Passion Week. After the resurrection she is identified as Mary Magdala because she took on a leading role in the Church as a leader of the apostles themselves - such was her closeness to Jesus. Magdala is not an Israeli or Palestinian town, so we don't know the origin of this word. It could be related to her role as an abbess living in a cave in France, but even that is mere conjecture.
I hope this helps :-)
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Lori-Ann Neeb
You mention nothing of the Mary you talk about as being his wife. There is so much lost to history that I doubt either side could ever come up with a scientific report that would satisfy the other didd so that just has to be accepted. The legends of the cave in france mention multiple mary's as well. A common name like that is bound to be a lot of places. So whether or not yóur mary was who you say may very well be true. I still stand by my belief that Jesus was married to mary Magdelyn and she was the first disciple because of his closeness to her and his education equal. He could share more with her whereas most of the other disciples were from lower levels of their society and were not literate. He used parabels with them so they could understand him better. It was no secret to anyone then that she was his wife and he absolutely adored her. Paul was jealous of the time Jesus spent with her. The church did control at least a large part of the bible because it was they that declared paul, i believe, the first pope when everyone knew Mary Magdelyn really was. But patriarchal societies and the church being what they were would never allow a woman such a vital role. They wrote Mary Magdelyn out as much as they could. It was the vatican making changes and edits all the way up until one pope declared no more.
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Pastor George Day
Lori-Ann Neeb,
There was no papal authority or Vatica in the early Church, to begin with, and there is no historical or archeological evidence of your Da Vinci Code claims. There is plenty of evidence of who Mary Magdala was.
Believe what you like, as long as it makes you happy :-)
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Lori-Ann Neeb
My beliefs have nothing ti do with davinci code claims. The fact that he vTican was not around in Jesus time does not hange that they were later and did what they did to control the populations tbrough fear and manipulation. They did all they could to erase mary magdelyn from history. So the no historical evidense is true but not becuse it never existed. Jesus himself himself was not well known in os own time. Even the Romans were not all tht worried about a lesser known man preaching love and forgiveness. The 8ssue had to be forced. He was fR from tbe firt person cruxified for claiming the prophesy also. More telling is something they overlooked when editing out anyth g that had to do with his human side. That was the exerp about the wedding at cannan. There is mor proof hat it was his weddings wedding to Mary Magdelyn than not. In their culture the groom was responsible o th wine so his mother would hav naturally gone to him when the supply got low. Then sh told the servants to do whatever he said. In their culture, being a high ranking family, meant it had to have been her home and her servants. At their social level one woman going into another woman's home and ordering servants to do anything would have been the social fopa of the season. It would have made her practically a social outcast. She never would have done it except in her own home. But as you say we all must find the path that speaks to us. Si belev as you will also.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
to ask about your supposition that Constantine wanted a Christianity that would define his empire... who do you claim he was to have that right or have his pipedream book seen as any more than his petty whim? he could sit up at night and read himself to sleep with it if that worked for him. but it had no place in spirituality and the true message the mission life entity, Jesus came to give us.
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Pastor George Day
Lori-Ann Neeb's AvatarLori-Ann Neeb,
Did you get that from a Church history book?
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Lori-Ann Neeb
Church history is good to read as knowledge that was put out as official but like anything else. Read with an open and inquizitive mind. I like general snd cultural history. Archeolgical history. All sources should be read and one makes a decision after that as to the most likely real truth.
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Pastor George Day
Lori-Ann Neeb,
... as well as the Da Vinci Code, right?
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Rev Deborah Dunkle (Raven Wolf Song)
Our country most definitely was Not founded upon any one religion. The point of our founding fathers was Not to have one representing religion. They were escaping the tyranny of a religion being forced upon them. Read your history people. Not dogma or the slanted stuff your being fed but the history of colonization and the founding of our republic. It’s even in the constitution the separation of church and state. Gee where did you get this idea we were founded upon Christianity?
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Rev. Rory
"If the founders had not made their stance on this “Christian nation” issue clear enough in the Constitution and the Federalist Papers, they certainly did in the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli.
Begun by George Washington, signed by John Adams and ratified unanimously by a Senate still half-filled with signers of the Constitution, this treaty announced firmly and flatly to the world that “the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”
Despite the founders’ intent, later generations of Americans began to assert that the country they created was indeed Christian.
https://www.cnn.com/2015/07/02/living/america-christian-nation/index.html
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Daniel Gray
Sorry but if you read all the founders papers you will find that ALL of them except for 2 were christian, and the laws were based on the Christian religion just like the ones in England were.
Nice try but its better that you know what you are talking about instead of using CNN as a source.
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Michael Hunt
CNN is a better source than no sources, Daniel. Funny how you never provide any.
Just because Christians founded America, doesn't mean that they intended for it to be a Christian nation. In fact, they explicitly state a number of times that we are not a Christian nation.
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Rev. Michelle Love
I would like to argue that America was not founded by Christians. Instead, I believe the majority of the Founding Fathers were Christians and that any pagan/atheist members were outnumbered when drafting the Constitution.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Many of them were deists who gave lip service to Christianity. The only thing you need to apologize for is telling the same lies over and over, Grey. The laws had many bases of origins, not just the one. The founders wanted a country based on the enlightenment era attitudes and ideas not just the dogma you’re pushing. One of these days you’ll realize you’re pushing 60’s era propaganda.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
Nice try Daniel Gray, but no. The USA is a Secular nation, and no the Founding Fathers were not Christian. They were protestants and deists. There were a few catholics among them as well, but it was in no way a "Christian Nation", nor founded that way. IF it was going to be founded on any religion, it would've been founded on Protestantism as the vast majority were that or deists.
And yeah, you can look that up.
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Pastor George Day
Bridget Kielas-Fecyk,
Protestantism and Catholicism are both Christianity.
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Tracy Anne Boudreau
Not to be rude, but your pretty funny. You have such a creative way of seeing history, lol.
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Rev. Michelle Love
According to ULC's Human Timeline of Mythology and Religion, both Catholicism and Protestantism fall under Christianity that falls under Judaism.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
Messianic Judaism and Hebrew Catholicism are part of Judaism. Christianity develops amongst Gentles. It pertains to the New Temple, which was meant to include Jews and Gentiles.
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Rev. Michelle Love
Pastor Day,
Hebrew Catholicism is another term used to describe Kabbalah, which was the religion Jesus actually prescribed to. Kabbalah is the basis of the Roman Catholic Church and explains how He was able to perform so many miracles during His lifetime.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
Here's a non-Jew lecturing a Jew about Jewish things!
Kabalah is NOT a religion, but a mystical tradition that takes roots in ancient times as far as Abraham. It is cautioned by the Catholic church not to be practiced because of its occultic nature. It is not biblical in fact but has its scripture (called Zohar). Part of Kabalah needs correction from a biblical standpoint. It's coming to light dates back to circa AD1200 in Spain.
Again, sorry, you're talking nonsense - respectfully :-)
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Rev. Michelle Love
Pastor Day,
First of all, I never said what religion I prescribed to. Secondly, I never did say Kabbalah was a religion. Finally, there are very few interactions you have had with me that would be considered respectful at all.
If I didn't know any better, I would swear you were one of the 36 people who created fake profiles to stalk me on social media.
If you are indeed a real pastor, I pray for your congregation because like has a tendency to attract like and at this moment it feels as if you are leading a hate group and not a church.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
Where do you get all this stuff? Your imagination impresses me :-)
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Pastor George Day
The USA was founded upon Christianity. The 1st Amendment has to do with differences in denominations.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
your gOd doesn't need to approve anyone else's god. that's exactly the parochialism that so many of you kkkristofascists abide by: the only true view is your own which, as we all know, is completely wrong.
the u.s. was 'guided' by kkkristofascist principals, but also by british common law. we are neither a british nation nor a kkkris chin one.
the u.s. was also founded by almost exclusively white men, are you saying the u.s. should be a white nation only?
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Rev. Michelle Love
If they are truthful to themselves, they will admit that they don't want it to be a white nation only because who else is going to do all the jobs that they don't want to do?
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Tecla Caryl Loup
How do you know that God didn't approve of Hindu or other principles? Did He/She tell you that (the false gods canard)? Are you saying (without explicitly so stating) that
I believe that comparative religion is possibly a worthwhile study, I just can't swallow the concept of "my religion is the Only True One and all others are Not". Especially when at core they pretty much hold similar beliefs. And I see so many who profess Christianity who do not follow Jesus' primary concept, which appears to be to love one another. In my opinion, it's shameful to run around condemning others who might hold similar but not strictly identical beliefs. So maybe people should lighten up and learn to tolerate what, in the larger scheme of things, amount to small differences.
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Donald J Rothschild Jr
Amazing how people are brainwashed. “America is a Christian Nation”. Think again.
Here is what some of the Founding Fathers had to say:
Thomas Jefferson: “Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.”
James Madison: “Religion and government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together”.
John Adams: “The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion “.
People fled Europe because of religious intolerance. Why would you think they would com3 here just to replicate what they fled.
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Daniel Gray
Although all the founders did not want a theocracy or a state religion as in England, virtually all had an expectation that the nation would be primarily Christian, because most of the founders themselves were Christian, and most of the citizens were, as well. A vast majority, in fact.Nov 1, 2020
In the People v. Ruggles (1811), the Court declared that “the people this state, in common with the people of this country, profess the general doctrines of Christianity,” and that “the morality of the country is deeply en grafted upon Christianity.”
In terms of their religious views, the Founding Fathers were a relatively diverse group of men. Some were Christians; 2 were deists. Nevertheless, as a whole, they were heavily influenced by Christian thought.
Sorry but your cherry picking does not benefit you nor anyone who believes your nonsense.
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April B
Many of our founding fathers were also Freemasons.
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Amber Fry
No sir, they were Deists. Look it up.
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Russel A. Kester
No, Amber, some were deists, most were Christians. Look it up. Start with the Great Awakenings. Next a good theological textbook will prove most helpful. Finally, reading some good biographies from offer great insight too.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
Actually, look it up. The majority of the founding fathers were deists with others being protestant. Very few were Christians. Hence why the USA is a Secular nation, not a christian one. And as for "Look it up" This took less than 3 seconds to google.
https://www.americanprogress.org/article/the-founding-fathers-religious-wisdom/#:~:text=Many%20of%20the%20founding%20fathers,solving%20social%20and%20political%20problems.
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Russel A. Kester
Bridget, once again your comment shows a lack of understanding. Protestants are Christians. However, to check my understanding of our early nation, I asked Google AI. Here is it's response, "Yes, most European Americans at the time of the United States' independence in 1776 identified as Christian, with about 98% being Protestant and 1.9% Roman Catholic. The original 13 colonies were governed by Christian states with established churches, but they also allowed for different relationships between church and state. For example, some colonies had a weak establishment that affirmed Christian faith without a preferred denomination. The Great Awakening in the 1730s and 1740s also strengthened the colonists' commitment to their faith." Once again, my statements were correct. The source you cited is "The Center for American Progress (CAP) is a public policy research and advocacy organization which presents a liberal viewpoint on economic and social issues." per Google AI. Your sources are skewed and present a narrative it wants to be true, not what actually was true. This error occurs because such journalists focus only on a couple of the early "fathers" instead of the peoples as a whole giving a distorted understanding. These men created documents that all Christian citizens could accept and thus, as the peoples' REPRESENTATIVES, not their masters, our nation's inception was as a Christian people.
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Pastor George Day
Bridget Kielas-Fecyk,
I'm intrigued. Are Protestants, not Christians?
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
In the modern context, we would consider them such. But at that time, Christians, Catholics, and Protestants did not consider themselves the same. And there were often clashes among them. With one religious faction or another coming into power at any one time to try to wipe out the others. Another reason the founding fathers, among others, came to the states and made hardcore rules about separating church and state.
To allow people to worship freely no matter what they believed in. It wasn't until the churches began to get a choke-hold on the nation did religious massacres really start.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Thomas Jefferson, John Adams and Benjamin Franklin viewed Jesus as a great teacher but not as God
https://apnews.com/article/american-founders-christian-nation-conservative-beliefs-4ea388e8d80c54016a6a4460cbef9b82#
The experts disagree with your assessment. They have been influenced the way everyone was influenced by it, but they also foresaw the dangers of Christian theocracy and what your lot bring to it. Those dangers are repeating once more. Your definition of good biography is nothing but rose lensed hypocrisy and propaganda.
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Russel A. Kester
The personal beliefs of a couple of men isn't reflective of the beliefs of the peoples who were 98% Protestant and 1.9% Catholic. Those are the peoples who constituted the new United States of America, not the personal beliefs of a couple of slave holders.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Not exactly Kester, there were many who weren’t as fanatical or zealous who chose more forward views of the enlightenment era of the time which drew from both spiritual and secular in nature. Im not saying Christian principles weren’t part of the founding, I’m saying you’re over exaggerating their importance. They weren’t the Christian nationalists youre trying to make them out to be. Conservatives are constantly projecting an idealized version of the past that never existed onto their politics.
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Russel A. Kester
James, you wrote, "Im not saying Christian principles weren’t part of the founding ...." On this we agree. I think you are also correct that the elites of the time, who were followers of the enlightenment ideas, held that religion (by which they meant Christianity) should be based on reason and philosophy which lead them to a faith based in "natural religion" which was most assuredly not fundamentalist. The population, however, did not hold to such elitist views. They were Puritans, Quakers, Anglicans, Methodists, Congregationalists, Catholics, Presbyterians, Baptists, and Lutheran's. I believe it was John Adams and James Madison who didn't want a democracy because they believed the uneducated masses were too ignorant for it. These "uneducated" citizens did hold sincere Christian beliefs which they believed were divinely revealed in the Bible and their church and did not hold to the views of the elites. Since this group of the 'great unwashed' were the vast majority of our newly formed nation's citizens, our nation was a nation of Christians and as you said it reflected those Christian beliefs in its founding via our documents and laws. I don't know what you think are the beliefs of Christian nationalists, but that's a discussion for another time. Btw, I found a website for the Project 2025 agenda and will read it. Thanks for the tip.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Kester, try reading something from the Smithsonian about our country, the founding fathers, and their thoughts on any one religion, and why they insisted this was a secular republic. It’s much more informative that Google AI.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/americas-true-history-of-religious-tolerance-61312684/
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Russel A. Kester
James, the Smithsonian was once a respected institution, but has been, regrettably, overtake by crazy progressives. Google AI, might lean to the left in its algorithms, but it still does a fair job of sifting through thousands, maybe millions, of sources to secure an answer to questions. Just because one doesn't like those answers is not reason enough to denigrate it.
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Pastor George Day
Daniel Gray,
You are right. This cherry argument from anti-Christians is only laughable.
To say that the USA is not a Christian country is like saying that Iran is not a Muslim country.
It is a cultural fact. Those among the Pilgrim Fathers who embraced moral values embraced Christian values. Even the very name 'Pilgrim Fathers' is telling!
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Rev. Michelle Love
Pastor Day,
Have you ever read The Jefferson Bible? If you did, you would see that there was very little about the Bible that he endorsed. And knowing that he as well as most of the other Founding Fathers were masons, there is a very high likelihood that they had similar beliefs as him.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
I have the Jefferson Bible and I am aware that not a few were Free Masons. But again, you see, if there is a devil, there must be a God too :-)
Morality is defined by our apprehension of good and evil as we know it.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
It is called cognitive dissonance. They are so hard wired into a certain beliefs that to even think intelligently on any other possiblity destroys their whole view or their world. I liked it to a computer crash. If you write code incompatible with their programming, it crashes. These people fear that most of all. They are the kind of people that will create excuses why you are wrong if you say the sky is blue.
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Pastor George Day
Lori-Ann Neeb,
Your comment makes absolutely no sense! The US was taking an unbiased position within a pluralistic religious environment, but the values on which the country was established are still Christian values.
Cognitve distance has no jurisdiction in this debate.
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Rev. Michelle Love
Knowing that the snakes that St Patrick drove out of Ireland were actually pagans, I would like to argue that America was founded by people who were exiled from Europe due to religious persecution instead of fleeing to the Americas due to religious intolerance.
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CB Cuff
Comments like that remind people why the fabric of American society is being torn apart. Maybe you could socialize a bit more....?
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Lionheart
Until you can demonstrably prove your god is real, it remains pure myth, but thank you for your comment. 🤗
🦁❤️
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Daniel Gray
And until you can prove that God isnt real then your opinion is just that, YOUR opinion
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Lionheart
I know what you mean, Sir Daniel. I’ve tried proving Fairies, Elves, Gnomes, Vishnu, Thor, Sasquatch, and even the Loch Ness monster are not real but it’s hard to prove things don’t exist isn’t it? I bet you believe in all those as well, right?
Just as a heads-up, we think Leprechauns aren’t real, but you are more than welcome to believe in that as well.
Thank you for telling us what you like to believe. You’re not on your own though. People throughout the world believe in their gods as well using the same illogical reasoning.
🦁❤️
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
Thor must be real. We have evidence of Him every time we hear thunder.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
Its not God's first day at Home. He has had some time on the job. So he has no problem answering to whatever name any culture or language he is known to that group as. There has always been one God, he has just answered to many names depending on ones time in history, culture, language, etc. Those who would judge and hate someone else calling Him by a different name need to look inside themselves for the reasons they hate instead of bullying others.
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Pastor George Day
Lori-Ann Neeb,
WRONG!
God revealed his name to Moses, a name so sacred that we Jews don't even pronounce it out of reverence, using instead the royal title ADONAI.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
And you are entitled to your beliefs the same as everyone else. So say or do not say any name the suits you. Beyound that what gives you the right to be less respectful to other people and their choices of beliefs? The answer is nothing since you do not have that right. You are a hostile, scared man who seems to feel threatened by anyone who believes differently than you. And that is sad. I have nothing against you, nor is my faith weak enough to feel threatened by you. I do not care what your beliefs are. I only ask for the respect i would give your different beliefs returned when it comes to my different beliefs...
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Rev. Michelle Love
Ms. Neeb,
What Pastor Day is doing is demonstrating a real life example of a spiritual attack. Also known as bullying, it is done to make someone question their worth and their belief in themselves. It seems as if Pastor Day reserves these spiritual attacks for the women in this group and his use of the term "respectful" whenever he refers to us seems facetious at best.
I remember when the church used to be a place of sanctuary, a safe space where all people were welcome. It appears that Pastor Day feels the need to weaponize religion. I hope that one of the three institutes he is studying at will teach him the errors of his ways because he has clearly strayed off the beaten path.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
I agree. I got distracted but was responding to a few sentences between him and his new best buddy on here feeling to anti Christians like he is aware of what the word might mean. to me the title christian has been weapon8zed by fundamental, conservative and fringe groups. they put out that "Christians think like them and if you don't , you go to hell. i believe myself to be gnostic christian which basically means I believe in the people in their Bible but not that the book represents those peoples real lives as they led them. it is sad because there does exist good spiritual minded people who call themselves christian and truly embrace its real meaning. which is God is love and forgiveness and the only dogma anyone needs to know is. Love God. Do good deeds, Shut up and go Home. Anyone that can figure that out. do their best to live it has the secret that isn't meant to be a secret i say that not trying to offend or " convert" someone if that believe isn't their path.. we all find our own path. even those two people. if I speak of a belief of mine it is with the intent that others will agree or disagree and that is their right i believe we all end up back at home someday and we are where we came from and things that are human concerns here just don't matter there so I figure why care here either. it would be kind of funny to see them at Home someday and find out what they wanted to learn or experience in this reincarnation that had them behaving a lot worse here. in this lifetime.
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Pastor George Day
Lori-Ann Neeb,
Your imagination is also vibrant. Thank you for your consideration :-)
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Lori-Ann Neeb
You are welcome
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
You must love me so much to pay so much attentive consideration to what I post.
Thank you :-)
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Pastor George Day
Lori-Ann Neeb,
You are fighting a war I did not start. Ironically, there is no one better than me at respecting everyone's right to seek the truth through their path - just ask my good friend John here who's a professed atheist.
But if you talk factual nonsense, that isn't my fault.
With respect :-)
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart,
Interesting you quote Nissie (the dragon that still survives in Loch Ness). I wonder what the countess eyewitnesses would say of your comment!
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Rev. Michelle Love
Pastor Day,
Did you know that dragons are what we call dinosaurs today? Nessie is not the only dragon that survived, just the most elusive.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
BINGO!
One thing we agree upon as a matter of accuracy!
We have scored one!
Let's keep digging :-)
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Amber Fry
Dude... seriously. Every single thing points to not. You are free to believe what you wish but you have no right to tell anyone else how to believe. Belief isn't fact. Until you understand that there is no discussion with you.
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Russel A. Kester
And your belief isn't fact either. But rather than say there is no reason for discussion, the opposite is true. This is exactly why discussions should be held.
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Pastor George Day
Oh, there you are, Lionheart!
I was wondering what had happened to you!
God keeps you safe! See how much he loves you :-)?
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Robin Anne Hannon
Johnny Mac read your history. This country was not founded on "Christian principles." The Pilgrims who came over wanted to escape the tyranny of the King that was tied to the Church. Both were corrupt and power-hungry. The bedrock of American history was the separation of church and state. This was to assure liberty of religious beliefs and practices and ensure that the USA would not be run by tyrants, kings, or any religious body. What schools tack on their walls is far less the issue than a form of Christianity that is not Christian in the least and has gained a hold and wants to bring everyone under their thumb. This is just the beginning of yet another round of religious overreach in the name of "Christianity."
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Rev. Rory
Brahman, who is the foundation of all existence approved, according to Hindus! No, I am not Hindu.
You are welcome to honor your God in your church and in your religious schools as should other people that have beliefs have the same opportunity. The country was not founded on a specific religion and those that are convinced otherwise have been sold a false narrative driven by a political agenda that goes back for decades. So honor away! Good for you! Leave our kids alone as we wish for them to follow a different belief (and it includes a lot more empathy and understanding.)
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Daniel Gray
wrong as usual People v. Ruggles (1811), the Court declared that “the people this state, in common with the people of this country, profess the general doctrines of Christianity,” and that “the morality of the country is deeply en grafted upon Christianity.”
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Amber Fry
Ok, and I see it is a blasphemy case based in freedom of speech. As in Ruggles was free to express his opinion. Upon appeal it became a freedom of speech issue. The whole purpose was to tear down the blasphemy cases. You might want to dig a little deeper before bringing the law cases into this. The fact of the matter is that the founding fathers did not support religion in government for the simple reason of "Which religion". What you are missing is the humanitarian aspects that many different religions overlap with, some not even related to the Abrahamic faiths.
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Russel A. Kester
That is not true, Amber, as I've pointed out before, Federalist Paper No. 2 specifically states that peoples of all of the states shared the common faith of Christianity.
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Rev. Michelle Love
Were the Native Americans included in this census? Or the Africans that were shipped over to build this nation? Asking for a friend...
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Russel A. Kester
Michelle, the two groups you identified were either separate nations (Indians) or were considered to be property not citizens (Africans shipped here as slaves) so they were not citizens of the newly founded nation therefore not Germain to our nation being constituted of a people of one religion (Christianity). So, your friend is mixing different categories.
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Rev. Michelle Love
And here I thought that all men were created equal...
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
It still doesn't prove your claim.
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Pastor George Day
Russel A. Kester,
American Indians are NOT US citizens. They have their enclaves. They are not part of the American moral/religious system.
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Russel A. Kester
Pastor Day, I think you misread my comment. I stayed that at the time our nation was finally was founded they were nations separate from the US and therefore not citizens. As for today, the 1924 Indian Citizenship Act allowed American Indians people to become U.S. citizens without giving up their tribal citizenship.
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Rev. Michelle Love
Mr. Kester,
He has a tendency to do that. Don't pay him any mind...
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
Here's the one that claims respect.
Further nonsense :-)
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Pastor George Day
Russel A. Kester,
Sorry and thank you for correcting me.
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Rev. Michelle Love
That was mighty kind of them to give these people enclaves in a country that belonged to them in the first place. If you are not aware, many of these reservations are not on prime real estate. And in the case of a few that were, such as the Nisqually Reservation located near Olympia, WA, they literally had to fight for their rights as recently as the 1960's for the ability to fish on their own land.
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Pastor George Day
Daniel Gray,
Finally, someone talks some sense in here!
BRAVO!
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Keith Graham Ainsworth
How do you know that god did not approve of anything hindu?
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Pastor George Day
Keith Graham Ainsworth,
Simple: because Hindu is pagan!
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Lori-Ann Neeb
What is pagan really? Spiritually comes from the heart. All organized religion is manmade. So what you are really claiming is that your "club" should have the right to dominate all the other clubs people have formed. There is no God in that. Just some deluded people presuming the right to dominate other people. I feel very sad for you.
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Pastor George Day
Lori-Ann Neeb,
You are right in that religion is man-made. However, revelation is not. Faith is a response to revelation.
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Ahmed Abduljabar Al-Hujazi
Try reading Thomas Jefferson's "Letters on Toleration". See what the drafter of our constitution said about religion and the state. Also, keep in mind that in the 17th century a large portion of the slave population in the US (approximately 20%) were Muslim, and had an impact on Jefferson, regarding his thoughts on religion. He even owned a Quran. So, given all that, maybe we should include Quran in the classrooms as well, since it's a historical document influencing how the USA was established.
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JaZe
People came here often running from religious persecution. Are persecutions starting all over again? Perhaps they never went away.
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Rev. Michelle Love
You're right; they didn't.
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Mr. Day their legacy is that they were here. Native Americans are still here despite white people taking their homes and forcing them onto reservations. They have a proud legacy. Whites do not. Whites came and forced people from their lands and took what was not theirs to take. White people should feel ashamed and embarrassed of what they did.