From transgender athletes competing in sports, to transgender bathroom policies, to gender-affirming care, trans issues are hotbeds of debate in countries around the world.
Despite transgender people being a relatively small percentage of the population, these issues command a significant space in the headlines. And everyone has an opinion on the transgender community… including the world’s major religions.
When it comes to transgender people, gender transition, and gender identity, what do the world’s major faiths have to say?
Christianity
There is no universal religious stance on transgender identity across Christian denominations, and Christians are largely split on approval of gender transition.
For example, the Catholic Church recently declared that gender ideology and gender-affirming surgery are an existential threat to humanity.
Southern Baptists and non-denominational evangelicals are generally hostile to gender transition as well, sometimes pointing to Genesis, where God created “male and female” as proof that gender is not fungible and cannot be changed.
Still, some Christian denominations do affirm the transgender community to some extent, notably the Church of England, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, and Presbyterians.
Islam
With almost 2 billion believers, Islam is the second-largest religion on the planet after Christianity. Among Muslims, there is similarly no global consensus on transgender people – though opinions towards gender transition do skew negative in highly traditional Muslim societies.
However, some Islamic leaders have shown support for gender transition. In 1987, the Shiite theocracy founder in Iran Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, issued a fatwa allowing sex changes for transgender Muslims.
That fatwa was based on a belief that people are born transgender, but that homosexuality is a choice. Because of Ayatollah Khomeini’s fatwa, Iran performs more gender reassignment surgeries than any other country except Thailand.
Judaism
Broadly speaking, Judaism is more welcoming to the idea of gender transition and transgenderism than the other Abrahamic faiths.
Jewish scholars say that thousands of years ago, ancient Jewish law recognized at least eight different genders in the Talmud.
Both Reform Judaism and Reconstructionist Judaism are generally accepting of transgender people and gender transition, and Reform Judaism even allows for the ordination of transgender rabbis.
Hasidic Jews are an exception – because they observe such rigid gender roles, gender transition is rarely discussed and goes unacknowledged.
Hinduism
Transgender people are generally accepted and even celebrated within Hinduism; in fact, Hindu holy texts frequently make reference to people of a third gender, somewhere in-between man and woman.
In many majority-Hindu countries, so-called "third gender people" are celebrated and sometimes even believed to have special powers – though this has sometimes led to stereotyping.
Transgender Hindus are known to worship deities who are believed to have changed their sex or died or were reincarnated as a different sex in scripture.
In that sense, Hindu societies do hold space for transgender members of the community. If there are anti-LGBTQ+ sentiments, some experts say, they are believed to have been imported by western imperialism – and not endemic to the Hindu countries themselves.
Buddhism
Buddhism is a fiercely individualistic religion focused on personal enlightenment, and there is no personal guidance on gender transition or same-sex relations in general within Buddhist philosophy.
The Buddha never spoke directly on transgender people or gender transition. One of Buddhism’s primary moral precepts is against sexual misconduct, but neither gender transition nor homosexuality are considered misconduct specifically.
Still, some Buddhist societies are patriarchal and observe traditional gender roles. Generally speaking, the Theravada tradition of Buddhism is the most conservative and traditional, and Tibetan Buddhism, the most progressive school, is the most accepting of transgender people.
Sikhism
Gender transition and homosexuality in general aren’t mentioned in the Guru Granth Sahib, so there is no formal guidance in Sikhism on these issues.
Sikhism as a faith advocates strongly for acceptance and equality of all people, so many progressive Sikhs believe the faith is affirming of LGBTQ+ people.
However, the Punjab region of India, where Sikhism originated and remains the majority faith, is a patriarchal society where homosexuality is still viewed questionably, and many transgender Sikhs fear coming out, lest they face reprisal and condemnation from friends and family.
116 comments
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Lisbeth Kieran Bushey
In Paganism and Wicca, we believe that a person has any one or more of spiritual gender - or even none at all. Feminine, masculine, and combinations of gender are all divine. Within my own historical Indigenous Canadian culture, we believed that Two-Spirited persons were sacred people in deep touch with the Great Spirit before Europeans arrived. We also believe in “If it harms none, do as ye will”, which is a version of the Golden Rule of “Do unto others as you would have done to you”. Being transphobic, homophobic, or racist is harmful to others, so we consider it a sin. We also believe in a form of Karma, “whatsoever you put out into the world, be it good or bad, shall be returned to you times three”. Basically, being unkind or uncharitable to others will come back and bite you on the keister later. Being Trans or otherwise LGBTQ+ doesn’t harm anyone. It’s not a sin. Being hateful towards others is harmful. Harming others with our words and actions is the real sin.
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Russel A. Kester
Lisbeth, I'm pretty sure that Wicca and witchcraft refer to the Goddess and the God as the male and female aspects of the Divine. The great ritual ceremony using the chalice and knife (by whatever term used) is symbolic of the union of male and female which in some, though very few, might actually be performed by a high priestess and priest. Finally, notice the stress in Wicca on the Divine feminine (to the virtual exclusion of the Divine male). I'm not so sure that Wicca and witchcraft do recognize more than two genders matching their respective sexes.
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Kathleen Margaret Guilmette
Why,in all of our discussions of different religions, is Unitarian Universalism never discussed?
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Phlan-Michelle Anne Phillipa Purss
Ah, It's times like these that I'm glad that I follow my peoples Dreaming. For those that don't know Aboriginal Australian People who are the WORLDS OLDEST Continual Culture have our own belifes which is known as the Dreamtimes. When it comes to Trans People were known as Sistergirls in our culture. Yes I'm a very strong & proud Sistergirl Elder.
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Harvey Warshaw
Thank you all for a thought provoking discussion. v/r Harvey
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J E Del Rio
Biologically there are only two, When biologists speak of human sexes we mean something very straightforward. There exist only two sexes, which are fundamentally rooted in the binary classification between sperm and ova. Males have the function of producing small gametes (sperm), and females large gametes (ova). the female is XX and the male is XY. Every individual must have at least one X chromosome. Since the female is XX, each of her eggs has a single X chromosome. The male, being XY, can generate two types of sperm: half bear the X chromosome, half the Y, this FACT is not a social construct! A social construct is any category or thing that is made real by convention or collective agreement. Socially constructed realities are contrasted with natural kinds, which exist independently of human behavior or beliefs. Simple examples of social constructs are the meaning of words and the value of paper money. Social construct in World Of Make Believe things that are made real by collective agreement between idiots who seek change at all cost That are still Make Believe things, calling human gender variants!, and According to analysis, the average person has around 400 defects in his or her genes So we humans are defective!
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Russel A. Kester
Excellent 👍
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Robert James Ruhnke
Gross Kester.
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Russel A. Kester
Robert, everything J E said was based on facts and science or linguistics so why the negative comment directed at me for simply agreeing with him? If you disagreed with J E's comment you should've directed your response to him, not me. I can't see how your comment to me furthered the discussion.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Nope, it’s cherry picked and missing a lot. Making it all wrong. Let me break it down for you.
“There exist only two sexes, which are fundamentally rooted in the binary classification between sperm and ova. Males have the function of producing small gametes (sperm), and females large gametes (ova). the female is XX and the male is XY. Every individual must have at least one X chromosome. Since the female is XX, each of her eggs has a single X chromosome. The male, being XY, can generate two types of sperm: half bear the X chromosome, half the Y,“” whilst yes there are two main sexes for humans, it’s still a spectrum and not a binary. Calling it a binary is just outdated lazy thinking. This statement is made under the assumption that all people are born like this, and no anomalies occur. When too many people are born with genetic anomalies that show it’s not just an XX or XY every time. By defining it this way you’re ignoring the entire story behind our biology and genetics. Yall talk about how people who accept the science behind Trans and Queer Existences are trying to change things at all costs, whilst wanna keep an outdated set of ideas at all costs. Again y’all project the worst on others, but then are far more guilty of the behavior.
“A social construct is any category or thing that is made real by convention or collective agreement. Socially constructed realities are contrasted with natural kinds, which exist independently of human behavior or beliefs. Simple examples of social constructs are the meaning of words and the value of paper money. Social construct in World Of Make Believe things that are made real by collective agreement between idiots who seek change at all cost That are still Make Believe things, calling human gender variants!, and According to analysis, the average person has around 400 defects in his or her genes So we humans are defective!“ this is just gas lighting BS. Y’all push a made up religion like Christianity, that borrows or steals from all the myths of the surrounding area to form one murderous cult that’s been bothering and butchering other cultures since Charlemagne founded it as state religion. But then ignore the mountains of non anecdotal evidence which supports the existence of trans people. The irony of ironies is he wants say fairy stories aren’t make believe.
My comment was a precursor for my analysis, Kester. lol you just came here like Gagnon to be a troll and you don’t like the fact you’re being trolled. lol. The difference between you and I? I’m actually honest about it. Instead of hiding it behind false compassion of the religious kind.
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Russel A. Kester
Robert, there are only two sexes. That is science. The belief in more than two sexes is not science. Such a belief might be based on bad sociological theories, but they are not based on science. There is no science behind trans and queer theories. None. There are self-reporting anecdotes, but not any hard science. When J E goes on to describe social construction you veer off into another diatribe against Christianity. Perhaps a mere tactic of deflection?
But your last paragraph is most telling. You projected your own motives onto J E and me. That was wrong of you. I am quite sincere in my religious beliefs, my sexuality, and my obligations as a ULC minister to continue my theological studies as well as increasing my general knowledge. I have every reason to believe that J E does the same. You, however, admitted that you are here to troll. Those are acts of a trans activist who doesn't engage in discussions to further knowledge and understand but only to push a predetermined narrative. ULC ministers and the monastery deserve better.
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Ari Joseph Bertine
It is interesting to see how various religions weigh in on a medical condition. We don't see an overwhelming number of religions weighing in on most other medical conditions unless there is a proscription against a specific treatment, like the sects that forbid blood transfusions. It feels odd to think about someone having a religious opinion on a life-saving medical treatment, as if their opinion should influence someone else's health.
It's also odd that any religions would react so negatively to something that isn't even a religious issue. No one says, "God never makes mistakes" when a child is born with visible birth defects that require surgical reconstruction to give that child a good quality of life. Nobody says it when a kid has a cleft palate and needs cosmetic repairs to go along with their functional repairs so that they can feel better in their own skin. Nobody has been saying it for the past 70 years when intersex children's parents choose which sex to make that child and surgical intervention is done to lock them into that sex for the rest of their life, and nobody says "God made them male or female and nothing else" when that happens, either. It's almost like some people are unable to understand the concept that physical structure of the brain is directly connected to gender, despite medical researchers very clearly explaining that since at least the 1980s.
People will always find a way to make their religion about what THEY believe rather than making what they believe be about their religion. That's the bottom line. And humans are fearful primates that dislike anything they don't understand, and often refuse to understand things they don't personally experience. It's a vicious cycle that leads to religions that start out very comforting and inspirational turning into tools for the powerful to use to use people as their political pawns.
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Miriam Gates
I know that unless a human tells you they are this and that, you can’t know. If a human walks into a church and sits through a service then decides to continue to come and becomes part of this community. No one has Xray eyes to see through their body, unless said human walks in naked. If you get to know this human and said human is genuinely there for the right reasons why would said human not be accepted. Church truly is there for the hurting and healing should be available. But sadly more humans are hurt by some religious humans who decide to be some authority. These are the humans Jesus pointed out as snakes in sheep’s clothing. I was raised in a small baptist church in South Louisiana. All to my knowledge were accepted but a small community has fewer humans than the larger churches.
A humans motives determine being accepted or rejected or ignored. This includes both sides. Having a need to be seen and heard is human. Desiring to be accepted is human. Desiring to be loved is human. It’s sad but a criminal will take advantage of human they see as weak and do harm. Hurt humans will hurt humans. Distorted Parental humans will hurt or kill their own children…
All humans answer to someone whether they like it or not. It’s a choice to accept or reject. It’s really sad that we have become so caught up in having a title! It’s chaos! This has become a world of what’s your title not who are you! This hyper focus on said titles has caused consequences and forcing opinions on all humans!!! There’s an avalanche of voices screaming, getting louder and louder as to who has the loudest. This solves nothing and is like a huge rumble of snow or mud or lava or floods coming and nowhere to run or hide.
I shake my head at even the different opinions on here, some with facts or truth, respect and disrespect poured out.
Love thy neighbor….doesn’t mean leave your doors unlocked.
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Steven Ferrell
My own view is there are only two genders and the push on kids is wrong.
There was a time when a girl could be a tomboy and climb trees, play with boy toys, etc. and no one thought anything about it. Now if a girl does that, they want to say that child is trans and start pushing that child to become a boy. STOP with the push to make them something that they are not.
My wife was considered a tomboy growing up, yet also liked dressing up in fancy dresses. She can be tough as nails and was a Master Drill Sgt, but she is also all female and is absolutely beautiful when she is dressed for going out.
Our granddaughter was pushed to be trans, be a boy. Her parents went into debt getting her put on male hormones, having breasts removed at 16, changing name and calling her him and he.
I would not get on that bandwagon. I didn’t refer to her as she or her, but also would not call her him or he.
She is now 22, has met a man that she cares about deeply and now is back to wearing dresses, makeup and told me privately that she does not know how to tell her mom, but she has stopped the male hormones and is looking to have breast implants put in.-
ServantOfJudgement
That's quite the testimony Steven. It's good that you kept the channel open for her to confide in you these things.
The wisdom of a good grandfather is hard to beat.
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William Lewis Vass
Such a varied and lively batch of comments. Religion is a man-made construct that relies on biased views to control the thoughts and actions of it's followers through fear and intimidation. If someone processes who they believe they are verses who they currently are have every right to make the necessary changes to become who they are. Stop using archaic beliefs to justify the true underlying cause of your opinion. It's called prejudice. This is a widespread issue brought on by religion and fueled by their hatred for anything outside of their tiny little system of flawed thinking.
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Russel A. Kester
William, I disagree with your characterization of religion. I see it in a more positive light as man's search for ultimate meaning in a being greater than himself. The archaic beliefs you refer to are reflections of the many ways mankind has tried to understand himself, his interactions with society, and his creator(s). Some have misused it as they have misused government. I see our goal as continuing to understand our those beliefs and to improve upon them as they will ultimately have a greater affect on society and thus individuals than anything else in the future as they have the past. Finding our way as a species has been rough, but that doesn't mean we give up. We've made mistakes, but we have also learned from them. But our species seems highly unlikely to give up its religious leanings. They seem to be a part of us. Perhaps even a divine part calling us to discover our Creator and thus know ourselves and our place in this vast cosmic reality.
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Robert James Ruhnke
We’ve had 10’000 years to get religion right, Kester. Our ancestors were not stupid. The current popular cults of Christianity have been the bloodiest and most evil so far against their fellow humans. Those archaic beliefs are what are poisoning your mind against your own Community of Peers, all so you can face some fragile sense of normalcy. It’s why even when we agree, we still aren’t because of your poisonous perspective.
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Russel A. Kester
Robert, you simply hate Christianity. Fair enough. There's no law saying otherwise. It is a virtue to be tolerant and kind. Those are Christian values. And good ones too. And hardly a poisonous perspective. Wouldn't it be wonderful if everyone, no matter what there beliefs, held to those values? By the way, in my response to William, I didn't mention Christianity once. I responded to the innate yearnings of humans for religious beliefs. So why the tirade against Christianity?
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Robert James Ruhnke
Nope, that’s another projection. I cannot hate a series of outdated bronze myths.Thats just you being manipulative. Again. I can however detest and despise the cruel and insane actions that Christian’s have been pushing on their neighbors since its inception as a popular cult. To be fair other religions have also had it murderous follower, but they usually hide their malice behind a war or underworld god. The most insidious thing about Christianity is that it claims to be about peace, but has unleashed more war than Ares, Sobek, Freya, Odin, Sekmet, or any other old world War god could hope to inspire. So no, y’all have had 1800 years since the council of Nicea to get your values in order and it seems like death and destruction prevail over life and creation. Almost like Yaweh or your God of the Bible was closet War God or something. My “tirade” (just another gaslit descriptor of yours) was simply reminding you that you downplaying atrocity doesn’t give you a winning argument.
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Russel A. Kester
Robert, no one that I know of ignores sins committed in the name of Christianity. Those were the actions of people, not the teachings or doctrines of Christianity. And it would be wrong to conflate wars fought for many reasons by kings and queens in the name of Christianity with being actual Christian wars. You rightly say that other religions have murderous followers. From the Old Testament to today's church the crimes of leaders both religious and secular are recorded and taught as warnings. That is a strength of the Christian faith. And it is a record that is over 3,500 years in length. By comparison, it took secular leaders like Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, and Hitler less than 100 years to kill as many if not more people. That's not down playing anything, those are harsh realities. The tragedy is that those killed in the name of Christianity were not following its beliefs and teachings whereas those secular and Islamic leaders did so in accordance with their ideologies and beliefs.
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ServantOfJudgement
Religion is not a requirement but logic and basic observation is.
Dudes going into girls bathrooms leads to rape and sneak pics. It's dumb.
Dudes in girls shower rooms leads to rape. It's dumb.
Dudes participating in woman's sports leads to broken bones, lost scholarships and missing teeth. It's dumb.
Dudes going to the bar in a dress looking for love is dangerous, it leads to murder, it's dumb.
All theses things are in the headlines regularly, they happen all too often.
Brother wants to wear a dress? Go for it. Use your favorite lipstick and eyeliner, who cares. If the brother's a Christian, unhand the dress pronto.
Please don't attempt to pass as a legit woman though.
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Michael Hunt
Transgender women are not "dudes" going into women's spaces. They are women who want the same privacy and decency given to them that cisgender women are provided.
No transwoman is going into a woman's bathroom to rape or photograph other women. No transwoman is going into a woman's shower looking to rape another woman.
If you're a man and you murder a transwoman for being transgender, you're the problem, not the transwoman.
Your so-called "Christian morality" lacks the morals of basic human decency.
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
Well ... they left out paganism. Of course. We accept the LGBTQ+ community. One of my favorite and inspirational elders is trans and I have a trans coven sister.
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Phlan-Michelle Anne Phillipa Purss
Cool where do I join? As it's something this Sistergirl might be interested in.
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Daniel Gray
Funny isnt it, that out of all the religions the author used in this thread, ALL of them do not seem to care as much as the author does about Transgendered. And then the author tries to use a debunked story about Judaism saying there are 8 genders when not one site about Judaism says that, and then the link goes right back to a debunked story on the Monastery, and was shown to be a bunch of rubbish so much that it has been removed as when you try and click on it it says server not found.
One now has to wonder if the whole fake story was written by a transgendered trying to justify themselves especially in the SCOTUS decision upholding Idahos decision to ban all transgendered treatment and medication for any person under the age of 18 unless the parent wants to take the child to another state and pay for it themselves as medicade and medicare are legally bound not to pay for it. And I also guess the author is scared as over 30 states have laws like this with another 12 to 15 more waiting in the state assemblies to be passed into law.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Transgendered? Gods you’re a hateful human Grey.
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Daniel Gray
And you sir are an idiot. Almost 99% of all countries have bans on trangendered peoples and in some Middle Eastern and Asian countries its a death sentence. So I guess you are going to claim that the 6 countries that see no problem with it are ok and the rest of the world is wrong because YOU say so?
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Robert James Ruhnke
Oh you mean like the sentences that American evangelicals are pushing Ugandans to make. Which they did back in March. Y’all are no better. Maybe if our country would stop bombing them theyd evolve.
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Mountainsage
I love you all. God doesn’t make mistakes.
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Lionheart
Well, to name just one of your gods mistakes, there’s the parasitic worm called Loa loa, it’s a filarial (arthropod-borne) nematode (roundworm) that causes Loa loa filariasis. It bores itself into human eyes and causes blindness. More commonly known as the "eye worm", which is where it thrives to survive. It localizes to the conjunctiva of the eye, and it’s commonly found in Africa. I’m sure your particular god meant well when he created it. 🤭
🦁❤️
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Chris
Religion only pertains to those who follow that set of beliefs. It's not law and should never be law. If you want to discriminate and be hateful because of your religion, that's you. You have no right telling others what they can do, how they can dress, who they can love because of what you believe. Thinking you have that right is sheer arrogance and definitely not Christ-like.
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Nicholas J Page
There is so much in the news and social media I'm a straight man and have never considered changing gender just accept what and who you are.
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Colleen McAllister
Wonderful article with good information.
My thoughts on the issue are simple. Religiously, we live on a fallen world and therefore many things that might be considered sins are just part of the fallen state. Don't do things that you feel are wrong and let others make their own decisions.
Secularly, unless you intend to have sex with that person it is none of your business.
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Morgan Lewis Williams
it's ok with me
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Rev. Carol M Anaski-Figurski
Interesting article. God loves all people. All are welcome. We are all children of the same universe. I like to think ok the Kenny Chesney song American Kids " a little messed up but all alright."
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
For those claiming there are only TWO genders and that being LGBTQIA+ is "unnatural", "evil", that kids are being "forced to be it", etc. WRONG.
Genetically speaking, there are over 50 human gender variants, though outwardly, a person's gender can be born to show one of four physical appearances.
1) Born appearing to be male.
2) Born appearing to be female.
3) Born hermaphroditic, i.e. showing both gender traits.
4) Born genderless, showing no gender traits.
Now, that being said, it's not unusual for the PARENTS to choose their children's gender if they are born hermaphrodite or genderless. However, what the parents choose may NOT be what the gender of the child actually is. Nor does their outward appearance always show their true gender as well.
Allow me to explain.
You see, genetically speaking, as I stated earlier, there are multiple human genders, and there are many, many MORE gender variants. You can appear to be female by birth, and yet, genetically, be male. Internally, at the genetic level, your DNA shows that you are actually "wired" to be male, as it were.
You can appear to be male, by birth, and yet, genetically, be female. Internally, at the genetic level, your DNA shows you are actually "wired" to be female.
So, despite what some individuals may espouse and claim, there are FAR more than two human genders. Hell, even by birth, you can physically be one of four outward appearances. And it is, I assure you, all completely natural. There is no "god" factor with this, or a "devil" factor, or anything supernatural involved. For those who believe in such a thing.
It all comes down to how your DNA came together before you were ever born. So for those saying individuals who are LGBTQ+ are "unnatural", and those disparaging Trans individuals as "refusing their birth-right", you're wrong. It's completely natural. And, in fact, an individual transitioning to the other gender may, in fact, be simply gaining the physical appearance they were meant to have all along.
https://genetic.org/variations/
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
Thank you for your kind and intelligent response. ♥️🏳️⚧️
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Danny D. Maynard
I have been preaching this since I first read about a baby born without any sex organs (Asex) in a suburb of Columbus, Ohio in the mid-1990s. (1.) Asex. (2.) Male. (3.) Female. (4.) Intersex.
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Russel A. Kester
Bridget, your post is incorrect. According to Nature magazine, "[I]n birds and mammals, differences in development between the sexes arise from the differential actions of genes that are encoded on the sex chromosomes. These genes are differentially represented in the cells of males and females, and have been selected for sex-specific roles. The brain is a sexually dimorphic organ and is also shaped by sex-specific selection pressures. Genes on the sex chromosomes probably determine the gender (sexually dimorphic phenotype) of the brain in two ways: by acting on the gonads to induce sex differences in levels of gonadal secretions that have sex-specific effects on the brain, and by acting in the brain itself to differentiate XX and XY brain cells. https://www.nature.com/articles/nrn1494
The only way the study was able to get anything different was to REPLACE the Y chromosome with an autosome. They interfered, it didn't happen naturally.
The website you referenced is about Sex Chromosome Aneuploidy (SCA) said nothing about gender other than to say that a Y-chromosomes would not be viable without the presence of an X-chromosome. It wrote about male Y and female X chromosomes not about any genetic causes for gender dysphoria. The website supports the traditional male/female dichotomy.
So, if it all comes down to DNA there are only two expressions which correspond to the presence or absence of a Y-chromosome.
I asked Google's if a person could have both a penis and a vagina (a true hermaphrodite) and it came back with, "No, it's not possible for a person to have both a fully developed vagina and penis. Intersex is an older term for differences of sex development (DSD), which is a group of conditions where the genitals are different from each other. For example, someone with 46,XY/46,XX mosaic has some cells with the male chromosomal complement (XY) and some cells with the female chromosomal complement (XX)." Note the reference to cells not sex organs. In short, what is called hermaphroditism is actually a sexual deformity during fetal development.
No true hermaphrodites.No 50 different gender genes. No third sex. Just the traditional male/female and heterosexual/homosexual dichotomies.
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Lisbeth Kieran Bushey
And alligators and some other reptiles have their reproductive organs determined by the temperature of their eggs. Most people who have differences in their 23rd chromosome will never realize it without genetic testing. There’s also the matter of Trans people having the same brain structure/activity patterns as their stated gender identity - which is different from their assigned gender at birth.
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Russel A. Kester
Lisbeth, that's because alligators don't have sex chromosomes, but humans do which results in dimorphic development into either male or female. So what your really saying is that those persons who believe they're transgender have the same brains as gay men. To wit, "The results showed that straight men had asymmetric brains, with the right hemisphere slightly larger – and the gay women also had this asymmetry. Gay men, meanwhile, had symmetrical brains like those of straight women." https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Technology/story?id=5176866&page=1
Even the brain size of gay men and women were smaller than straight men with lesbians having the same size as straight men. So a brain similar to a female in men does not cause a person to perceive himself to be trans or all gay men would so identify, but we don't. And vise verse for women. In fact, a Wall Street Journal article had this headline about trans youth and being gay, "Most ‘Transgender’ Kids Turn Out to Be Gay" Subjecting them to medical interventions is the modern-day version of ‘conversion therapy.’ https://www.wsj.com/articles/most-transgender-kids-turn-out-to-be-gay-gender-affirming-care-conversion-therapy-58111b2e
It seems trans people just have gay or lesbian brains. No separate trans brain. We're still left with chromosomes and the uncomfortable truth that if left alone most kids who are confused about their gender are actually gay or lesbian.
Think about it. This makes total sense. Boys are always having to prove their masculinity. It's innate for them to engage in rough and tumble play to prove their boys and to measure their development against other boys. But the gay kid doesn't necessarily feel that way and feels attracted to boys so he begins to wonder if God made a mistake and he's really a girl. Add bullying where he's called many things including being a girl and he's absolutely damned if some virtue signaling doctor tells him he's trans. OMG he cries even the doctor says I'm really a girl. Bad, bad, bad.
Until science can understand this, we need to pump the breaks and stop gender affirming care in children and be sure that adults who suffer gender dysphoria get psychological counseling as a very high percentage of these persons have comorbidities.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Once again Russel, you’re projecting philosophical arguments where there are none. Science understands the process of how gender, orientation, and sex synchronize better than you do. And those they’re all separate concepts. You keep proving you’re no science expert. Your grasp of biology is no better than the straight men who push this outdated gender essentialist nonsense.
“Think about it. This makes total sense. Boys are always having to prove their masculinity. It's innate for them to engage in rough and tumble play to prove their boys and to measure their development against other boys. But the gay kid doesn't necessarily feel that way and feels attracted to boys so he begins to wonder if God made a mistake and he's really a girl. Add bullying where he's called many things including being a girl and he's absolutely damned if some virtue signaling doctor tells him he's trans. OMG he cries even the doctor says I'm really a girl. Bad, bad, bad.“ No, this is just more gender essentialist rhetoric that has nothing to do with biology and everything to do with brainwashed ways of thinking where one is taught what to think, and not how to think. The characteristics that define masculinity aren’t solely innate to men. Aggression, roughhousing, competition, women also have these, but once again, people like yoga try to limit one sex this behavior, whilst encouraging it for another. Not only are you transphobic, but misogynistic as well. That’s bad bad bad of you. Bringing god into it to guilt trip them into being a boy or gay? Yikes. That reeks of grooming.
“It seems trans people just have gay or lesbian brains. No separate trans brain. We're still left with chromosomes and the uncomfortable truth that if left alone most kids who are confused about their gender are actually gay or lesbian.” Wrong, good gods on so many levels, this is wrong, this is the same thinking Anti LGBTQ+ Christian fanatic straight people have been using against LGBTQ+ for centuries now. So now you’re weaponizing this way of think against the vulnerable of our community? Shame on you.
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Russel A. Kester
Robert, once again you engaged in fruitless ad hominem attacks and bullying. I refer to websites and articles written by scientists in support of those things I said in reference to science. So argue with the scientists. Yes, my example is based on the experience of many gay men and women as they struggled to understand themselves and their sexual orientation. Don't denigrate such lived experiences. You said that science understands gender. Great, provide your source for that information.
Your supposed critique of my comment were filled with woke, post modernist terms. It's clear that you truly want to believe in a world where no one is male or female and everyone believes in the bad sociological theories you imbibed in college. You drank the Kool-Aid. But that is not the real world, the world where science informs us of objective reality. The idea of men and women having different genders which correlate with one's sex has been observed and accepted since time immemorial. These are valid observations the truth of which science continues to prove. Gender is based on biological traits, chromosomes, and sex. Period. You call it gender essentialism. I call is objective reality.
Finally, you would berate me for philosophical arguments in my comments when in fact I repeatedly refer to information provided by scientists, but the only bases for your egregious statements are all deeply founded in philosophical theories and arguments, not science. They derived from feminist and queer studies in universities not from the laboratories of a actual scientists. Review the Cass Report from which I took my stance on not providing gender affirming care as currently practiced. So your argument is with the eminent pediatrician and her teams of doctors and scientists. Or are you claiming to be smarter then all of them combined?
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Robert James Ruhnke
Kester, you gaslight an entire communities of people, by calling them crazy, you don’t get to lecture me about bullying or ad hominem attacks. Feminists, Trans, College Students, anyone who doesn’t fit your superficial cookie cutter standards. You also try to gaslight me in your attempts to indoctrinate me into your cult of gender essentialism. Your alt right buzzwords mean very little to me.
You base your so called “real world” on Bronze Age mythology, you also don’t get to lecture me on what is reality. Which has been countless times refuted by the science you love to cherry pick. You yourself make lots of bogus claims in the name of science with zero citations to back your word. Gender is based on biology. That doesn’t mean it’s wholly biological. That’s the illusion you’re in because being a man is convenient for you due to the privileges having the male gender gets you.
In short, I treat you how you treat others. Only I’m not trying to be indirect or clever. You deserve every ounce of the “berating” I’m giving you. Despite the fact that you’re once again projecting hyperbole onto my arguments as a form of gaslighting. Youre Denying, Attacking, and reversing victim and offender, which is the tactic of people with narcissistic tendencies. Maybe you’re the one with covert narcissism here, because you’re coming off as thinking you’re some kind of altruist. lol. I put down the koolaid when I walked away from gender essentialism. It’s quite freeing to the soul, try it sometime. Liberate your soul from the accursed right wing Christianity you subscribe to. lol I’m smarter than you and your ability cipher through information, that much I know. The cass report ignores mountains of data from whole communities of scientists who’ve been studying this. The same way you do fit silly agenda that has not so silly results. These are the same people who are funding anti LGBTQ+ laws in Uganda. A you somehow think they’ll not come after you? Wake up?
I do apologize for my bombastic language, but you are attacking people I love and care about, and will defend with every ounce of my passion
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Russel A. Kester
Robert, you do have passion. That's true. What you don't have are facts or supporting documentation for your claims to truth. And remember, when you point an accusatory finger at someone, there are always three pointing back at you. 👈
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Robert James Ruhnke
Your superstition backed projections aren’t facts, Kester. I’m not pointing, I’m using my whole hand to gesture towards the mountain of dated and incomplete data. You misrepresenting the cass report isn’t a citation but just your own misguided interpretation, brought to you from hyper biased sources. My passion is fueled by evidence. Grow from your superstitions.
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Russel A. Kester
Robert, you say your passion is backed by evidence, and yet, you haven't provided any. Also I looked at the website you referenced in another post. It specifically endorsed ignoring science or even discussing science in favor of following the truths of a social construct of gender advocated by gender theorists. Ignoring scientific facts in favor of self-proclaimed truths of social theorists is the epitome of believing in and following a cult and it's leadership.
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Robert James Ruhnke
No, that’s you and your conservative Christian pals projecting the quiet part of their social clique onto a group of highly vulnerable people. It ignores outdated and obsolete ideas regarding gender and sex. Gender Theorists? lol bubba you gotta stop using alt right logic. Free your soul like I did. I know your wrong because I was wrong once too. Let go of your pride, privilege, and hubris. You’ll feel so much better. I promise. Your objective reality is based on illusion and half the story that’s out there. Let go, and grow. 😊
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Russel A. Kester
Robert, thank you for your response. My understanding of gender and sex are neither outdated nor obsolete. And I equally implore you to free yourself from the cult of unfounded gender and queer theories. Since my reality is objectively based it cannot be an illusion. As I said further above, your cult demands that you don't believe your ears and eyes in favor of its ideology. The smiley face was cute and a nice way to end your comment.
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Robert James Ruhnke
There are no cults of gender or queer theories. That’s you trying to create a bogey man to project your own cult’s misbehavior onto, in other words a straw man. It is when you base it on debunked data and Bronze Age myth superstitions. I’m Still growing Kester, I grew away from your way of thinking.
The term "queer theory" is broadly associated with the study and theorization of gender and sexual practices that exist outside of heterosexuality, and which challenge the notion that heterosexuality is normal. That’s it. lol you’re showing you know nothing John Snow. Be Better Kester.
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Russel A. Kester
Robert, do you realize that you just said the purpose of queer theory is to show that heterosexuality is not normal? Yes, it t is normal! 90% of the human population is straight. That as normal as normal gets.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Hah! You say I twist words when you’re taking what I said out of context, 🤡. Well you are trying to erase entire communities of people with your rhetoric so I’m not surprised you think violence is a normal way to uphold gender and orientation standards. The only reason why straight is considered to be a normal default is because the Christian church and many other religions have been policing people and what they do with their bodies for 10’000 years now. Though in the last 1800 years Christians have been the most violent as they’ve erased entire cultures that valued, accepted, and respected LGBTQ+ peoples. Putting a penalty death on it is not normal. I know what I said Kester, my argument is that LGBTQ+ is as normal as being straight. A descriptor of a human being’s attraction to other human beings, and how they sometimes express ways to display that attraction. Gay or straight aren’t defaults. That’s nonsense. Choosing to be gay isn’t bad. If you feel threatened by that statement that’s your problem and one you should seek therapy over. As I have. Therapy is a good thing, Kester.
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Russel A. Kester
Robert, you state that the only reason straight is considered the default [sexually] is because it's been imposed on people. It is more likely that being straight is simoly the natural default for the majority of the human race. Crazy thought, eh? Your statement that one may choose to be gay fails to acknowledge that one does not choose to be gay or straight. One either is straight or gay. It's innate. One might choose to act or pretend to be either straight or gay but that is not the same as being straight or gay. Ask anyone who ever experienced so-called conversion therapy. Queer theory wants us to accept that performative acts make reality. Thus, if a man acts like a woman then he is a woman. Balderdash! That's just bad sociological theory using applied postmodernism to disrupt and destroy society's language in hopes of enforcing its own terms onto society. That's how one gets nonsensical terms like a lesbian trans woman which, as I said, is just a straight guy with a fetish. Truth is not threatening only woke nonsense.
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Axcella Maria Zed
Are you transgender Do you want to know more about it ask someone who is Transgender
I am one who was born with my vagina outside of my body, I always knew I was a girl before I 5 years old. I remember asking my mother when my penis would go back where it came from. I was told that I was born to be a boy. I struggled for years dealing with the conflict of my mind and body. I finally decided to have corrective surgery in 2006 I went through counseling for 3 years then in 2011 I had my vagina put back into my body I have been restored. My struggle is with those who are not aware of what it is like to be in my shoes. I am now a member and Minister of The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and I have been Ordained in the Universal Life Church Ministry. I am hoping that the Church will be able to accept me as a woman and accept the LGBTQ and the other genderz. I became a member and Minister so I can help those who are of LGBTQ community to find their place in Universe
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Russel A. Kester
Axcella, thank you for sharing your experience. It sounds like you got good counseling for several years and then underwent surgery as an informed adult. I don't take issue with that. I do take issue with those who would subject children to puberty blockers, hormones, and even surgery. And do so often without the years of counseling you received. We are hearing of kids wanting to detransition and telling us they were too young. If you haven't read the Cass Report, I encourage you to do so. The medical community today is not following the proper guidelines as you did. Too many are hurrying the process because of Trans Activist pressure backed by some well funded sources. In short, the Cass Report recommends not using blockers or hormones and to let the child's body finish developing and then, as an adult they can elect surgery. Your experience is not like those who claim they're women Monday through Thursday and are men on Friday through Sunday.
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Robert James Ruhnke
That’s because you’re confusing gender fluid and trans gender, Kester. Gender Fluid is under the trans umbrella, but is its category of gender expression. You once again show off just how little you know out of hubris and arrogance. How dare you push this deadly misinformation about trans youth and the transition process based on nothing but old world attitudes that are archaic and obsolete. Your views are getting people killed, and once more? You don’t care. You pretend to save face. Nothing more. You’re hurting people I love for the sake of vanity.
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Russel A. Kester
Robert, I'm well aware of the differences between these various labels, but it is you who would confuse people by using the group noun trans instead of identifying each separately and clearly. This conflation is done on purpose. I clearly stated that I had no argument with Axcella's decision to become a transsexual as an adult. I was also clear that I oppose medical intervention in children and referred Axcella to the Cass Report as one source for my stance.
I then made a distinction from the above and those who claim a different gender on any given day which you label as gender fluid which is a term without a real referent as gender fluidity doesn't exist in the real world. You call my views archaic which is meant as a slight but in truth my views are consistent with those of humanity from time immemorial.
My views do not get people killed that's pure hyperbolly and fear mongering. My views reinforce observed categories of male sex /gender and female sex / gender which are affirmed by science.
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
Russel, you may wish to read the following
https://www.gendergp.com/response-to-the-cass-review/
Among the many other references that consider the Cass report to be BS.
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
Gender (masculine/feminine) and sex (male/female) are two different things and do not necessarily align. Gender is a continuum and it's quite possible sex is too. See Dr Anne Fausto-Sterling's work for a more detailed explanation.
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Russel A. Kester
Mike, everything one needs to know about Anne Fausto-Sterling is within the first sentence on Wikipedia, "Anne Fausto-Sterling (née Sterling; born July 30, 1944) is an American sexologist who has written extensively on the social construction of gender ...." Note that she believes that gender is a social construction. That is an idealogical position not based on facts but in perceptions of reality. Wikipedia described it as follows, " social constructionism rejects the notion that empirical facts can be known about reality, where as objectivism is defined by it." She is a lesbian feminist who specializes in women's studies. I believe her motives, as were the motives of many of the early feminists, was not based on science (objective reality) but we're based on her need to find a place in society for lesbians who clearly were not going to get married to a man, be a housewife, and have five kids. So she needed a theory for women like her that they would say the traditional roles of male or female in society were just made up and not true expressions of a gender based in biology. But gender expression is based in biology. Little boys are attracted to things and little girls are not. A recent study from Stanford was yet another study that showed the sex of our body determined our perception of reality because men and women literally, physically process percepts in different parts of the brain. Sex and gender are based in objective biology and are not mere social constructions. Sex and gender go together as a single package of either male or female.
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Patricia Ann Gross
So does this mean since gender is a social construct it is somehow not scientifically relevant? If gender is strictly binary, then why, as a female was I constructed to be more adept at the scientific and mathematic disciplines as a child, did I prefer to play "boy's" games rather than "girl's," and choose male dominated professions as an adult? My brain was wired more like the social construct of a male than female. Genitals have nothing to do with it. I do not identify as transgender, gender variant, or as any thing other than female, but I still do not deny the male traits I have. I totally understand and agree with the notion of gender being on a continuum that has nothing to do with the chromosomal gender markers. What does being a lesbian have to do with the work of Fausto-Sterling? I have been disparaged all of my life for choosing the "male-dominated" and "male-thinking" social constructs of wanting both home and career. Turning me into a baby factory was not in my DNA (literally or figuratively).
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Russel A. Kester
Patricia, your first sentence is wrong, gender is not a social construct. This seems to go back to the nature versus nurture debate. But studies have shown over and over again that in small children who haven't had time to be directed one way or the other boys share similar gender characteristics as opposed to those displayed by girls. Gender, the characterists we observe, are founded in sex, hormones, brain development and how the brain of each sex develops. For example, boys brains develop more slowly than girls which is a good reason for single-sex education. Percepts are processed in different parts of the brain which results in understanding reality differently. All of these and more go into one's gender. Therefore, a theory that postulates that gender is a social construct based on performative acts is very far off the mark. Male gender starts as soon as the Y-chromosome initiates a change in the theretofore female fetus at around the 8th week of gestation. Acknowledging variation in individual person's behavior is not tatamount to acknowledging the person is transgendered. So liking science or math doesn't make one a male, but being a male increases the likelihood that one will like them. Personally, I prefer language and reading.
Ya I stepped in some doo-doo with my guessing at some of the motives behind Fausto-Sterling's work. But I think the idea expressed is not without some merit. Her being a lesbian informed her views of the world and her place in it. I get my ideas from reading some, but admittedly not comprehensively, of the earliest feminist writings and reading up on the Women's Public (American private) schools in Great Britain from around the 1900s until 1975 or so. Their views on the patriarchy and equality for women led them to see men as the enemy and, I believe, theories like those advocated by F-S which seem to push all women, not just lesbians, to seek educations leading to careers at the expense of having families. Given the times, lesbians had few options open to them. Fair enough, but that didn't mean those were the right options for straight women. And I have personally witnessed straight women being bullied by avowed feminists for quitting their jobs to be housewives and mothers.
I hope I've done a reasonable job of responding to your questions. I really am trying to consider one topic at a time to keep my comments shorter, but failed miserably this time. Sorry.
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Mark Gilgen
there are ONLY 2 Genders the rest are made up. Just read the Bible it will tell you. Now it also says not to hate or abuse the people that think other wise butn too help them instead.
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Chris
Your bible is not a science book. It's a collection of stories written by men and curated by men to promote one particular set of ideas. Basing your knowledge of science off this ancient text is ludicrous.
Yes, your bible does say to love one another as Jesus loves you. Too bad so many who wave the book around can't seem to follow what it says.
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Russel A. Kester
Chris, while the Bible is not a science book it does give us lots of information about how those who wrote it understood what it meant to be a male or female and the roles in society that accompanied that understanding. It tells us how they ordered their lives and society. That's good stuff.
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Danny D. Maynard
The Bible is wrong on many topics. This is one of those. The Bible was written by uneducated grimey superstitious goat herders who were a patriarchal society.
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Rev. Klaire ThD, MA
Mark, your bible (the christian bible), regardless of your attempt to make it so, is NOT an authority on pretty much any topic. If you use it as such, you are leaving yourself open to being wrong about so many things.
Here's the problem. On order to use something as evidence in support of any argument, the thing you use has to be corroborated by at least another independent source. While there are some other independent sources that corroborate some of the historical details of your bible, there are NO independent sources that corroborate the divinity of the divine being described in it. Without that, the authority that you ascribe to your religious text falls apart and consequently, in any argument, you can't use the thing you're trying to prove as evidence for the thing you're trying to prove.
So, NO, there are NOT "only 2 Genders". Gender is an innate, self-identified presentation of how we show ourselves to the world around us. It runs from almost entirely feminine presentations on one end to almost entirely masculine presentations on the other with virtually any variation throughout to include, near the middle, those who do not identify with either direction of the spectrum.
And again, your bible isn't going to be of much help working your way through this topic but, in the spirit of the last sentence of your comment, I'm helping you instead.
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ServantOfJudgement
Klair,
I'm reading from you and many others here the same thing.
Like the belief in the Bible is in ones head, so is gender, incapable of being proved.
The belief in the bible was joined by the belief in evolution and now the two are joined by the belief in gender. None can be proven.
Three of many religions, each with their own priests, puppets and penalties.
Long live (insert belief here)
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Rev. Klaire ThD, MA
It's clear that you make the mistake of not understanding the difference between 'belief' and empirical analysis.
For instance, understanding evolution or more appropriately, understanding "any net directional change or any cumulative change in the characteristics of organisms or populations over many generations", is not a 'belief' but an understanding of our physical world based on empirical evidence and data. As well, the study of the relationship of gender to physical sex is also a similarly, empirically defined, evidence based relationship which is well documented in numerous medical and scientific studies and peer reviewed articles. Your failure to have made yourself aware of the evidence does not justify ignorance.
On the other hand. Each myth, religion, or spiritual philosophy is understood separately based on the details of its origin, construction, etc. in the case of the so-called and various Christian sects, there is NO corroborating empirical evidence to support the divinity of a grand spirit or spirits. Without this support, all other historical events that may be separately corroborated fall apart.
A shallow understanding of how one gets from 'a' to 'b' to 'c' is never going to serve you well if you are going to attempt to actually understand the details of a topic.
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Russel A. Kester
Klaire, the Cass Report found that the supposed science behind gender and gender affirming care is not well researched or documented. It said the evidence was thin. Also science is based in objective reality not subjective feelings. Asking if a person feels like the opposite sex is not scientific. And how would anyone born of one sex with all of the biological developments that accompany it have any idea what the opposite sex feels like. It's like believing a cat can know what it feels like to be a dog. Nonsense.
As for religious beliefs, they are based on subjective feelings which is why they are called religious beliefs and not science. Those feelings are called faith. To require faith to meet scientific standards is a categorical mistake.
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Rev. Klaire ThD, MA
By starting your comment "the Cass Report found"... You have stated the equivalent of "the National Enquirer found..."
If you don't know how to read and digest the things you 'found on the Internet', you might as well be prepared to be laughed out of every conversation you enter. More importantly, if you don't understand how to determine if a source is legitimate or not; empirically sound or unfounded opinion, you're nothing but wasting people's time.
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Russel A. Kester
Klaire, your response was disappointing. I thought better of you.
The Cass Report was requested by NHS England, headed by Dr. Hilary Cass, an eminent pediatrician, which included other highly qualified professionals with research of the underlying studies and data done by a group established by the University of York. Your simply dismissing it by comparing it to the National Inquirer was disingenuous. The Cass Report is most certainly a legitimate source. Your comment about my reading and comprehension skills was a childish ad hominem attack. As someone here who is a much better and smarter person than me has said, such responses are desperate tactics used by those who know they've lost the argument.
For those who are interested in the report the following is the homepage with a summary of its key findings and recommendations as well as a PDF version of the report itself.
https://cass.independent-review.uk/home/publications/final-report/
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Rev. Klaire ThD, MA
As NHS has stated numerous times, the Cass report was flawed in numerous ways, quality of research, conclusions that don't represent data, etc. Your confirmation bias is simply beginning to bore me.
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Russel A. Kester
Klaire, untrue. To wit, "NHS England (NHSE) welcomed the Cass Report's recommendations and expressed a firm commitment to implement the recommended changes. However, NHSE went one major step further, announcing that they will be initiating a Cass-style review into the adult gender dysphoria clinics (GDCs) in England.Apr 11, 2024" https://segm.org/Final-Cass-Report-2024-NHS-Response-Summary#:~:text=NHS%20England%20(NHSE)%20welcomed%20the,clinics%20(GDCs)%20in%20England.
You are either ill informed or lying. But by all means, if I'm wrong, show your evidence from the NHS supporting your claim.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Kester, the The Society For Evidence-Based Gender Medicine (SEGM) is a non-profit organization that is known for its opposition to gender-affirming care for transgender youth and for engaging in political lobbying. meaning your citation is worthless because all it is, is more anti trans bias. Your citation is nothing more than a fan fiction spinoff off the cass report. Which tells me you don’t research, just confirm biases. Like I used too. Like I said, I used to think like, then I stopped drinking the koolaid.
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Russel A. Kester
Robert, according to your way of thinking above, you should not listen to nonprofits that are pro trans, and yet you do. Actually, reading and hearing from interested parties on all sides of an issue is a very good way to understand a topic better. It seems it is you who is living in an echo chamber consisting of your own need for confirmation bias.
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Lionheart
Has the word “Transvestite” now been replaced by the word “Transgender? I don’t seem to hear that word used very much anymore. I guess there are people that still like dressing up in other genders clothes, but don’t take claim to that gender.
Can a person be a transvestite, but not gay?
I wonder if religions are softer with Transvestites than they are with Transgender? 🤷🏼
🦁❤️
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Stephanie A Willey
Transgender is the accepted term in medical world today and for nearly 40 years to identify a wide spectrum of the community of individuals who experience and come to understand that their physical body does not align with their innate internal identity. Gender and sexuality are not the same and are not connected or relative to each other in any way. These are the current scientific and medically understood and accepted facts.
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Russel A. Kester
Stephanie, while gender and sexuality might not be the same thing, gender and one's sex are. Whereas gender dysphoria, aka transgenderism, is a psychological issue, it is a mental health issue which has a slightly different connotation that simply calling it a medical issue as the latter would lead to thinking surgery is the proper response and the former to counseling. And there are NO hard scientific facts supporting transgenderism. None that I found anywhere. No transgender gene. Not even studies that would indicate that transgender persons process information in their brains differently as can be shown between how men and women process information in different parts of their brains. The Cass Report from the UK and others from Denmark dispute that these are facts accepted by more than medical practitioners who are specifically dedicated to providing so-called gender affirming care for a price.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Kester, Gender and sex aren’t the same thing. Stop pushing your religious agenda where it isn’t welcome. Sex is defined by biology, gender is defined by psychology, sociology, anthropology. No two cultures have exactly the same gender roles or define gender the same way. The Cass Report does question the validity of the research done, but that doesn’t mean it completely invalidates the existence of trans people. Gender Dysphoria isn’t a mental illness. Your covert narcissism is though. Do get help for it. As alway, we don’t agree, we will never agree. I’m too busy trying to help our community, while you’re busy railroading part of it to keep yourself safe, coward.
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Russel A. Kester
Robert, stating that sex and gender are two separate things doesn't make it true. They are a package deal based in biology. That is why boys have similar ways of understanding and living in the world which is different from girls. Thanks to another study by Stanford, science backs this up by showing that males and females process percepts in different parts of the brain which results in completely different perceptions of reality.
I didn't call gender dysphoria a mental illness. YOU DID. I said it was a mental health issue. Which it is. Perhaps that was just a Freudian slip on your part.
You also spoke of gender roles in societies not being the same. Actually, the historical record is crystal clear that gender roles have been consistently the same around the world. Men performed activities which provided for the welfare and safety of the family and society as fathers and men while women were housewives, mothers, and tended to domestic matters. Your statement is not well informed by history.
I am curious why you felt entitled to say to me, "Stop pushing your religious agenda where it isn’t welcome." I think we discussed this before. You are not authorized to speak on anyone's behalf but your own. And you may note that my above discussion didn't include one religious quote or reference. I did reference actual science and the social norms of societies since recorded history.
So, gender is not defined by psychology, it, like sex, is defined by biology. Gender or Queer theory is based in ideology which is simply wrong. Gender is not a social construct it is the expression of one's biological sex.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Bull. Kester. I never did. I’ve always known it was never a mental illness, some other fool here did say that. There’s a lot of Roberts here. Gagnon has said such things. Mental Health Issue is just a nicer way of saying mental illness. Your tone always betrays what you really mean, Kester. Always. It’s why I wish you’d stop being a pearl clutching savior wannabe and just mean what you say. You gaslighting me doesnt change that.
The problem with your assessment? You’re not basing your claims on actual biology. I learned in college that sex and gender are not the same thing. Gender is based on sex, yes, but it’s projected behavior that men and women are taught to do. It’s not something in born. We are not born men and women. We grow into them Through experiences. Even then. No two genders are entirely alike.
What one cultures wants people to do, another wants the opposite, with varying degrees. Sex and gender and separate, but they do synchronize. So understand why it’s so tough for you. You’ve been brainwashed to think a specific way about anything and everything around you before you could learn to think. I used to think like.
While yes, there universalities, there are also heavy divergences. We don’t see as many today because Christian’s have spent the past 500 years butchering them and wiping them out for their false sense of superiority. Natives respected and cherished their two spirit. Hindus recognize the Hijra as a third gender. The aborigines of Australia also recognize genders outside the binary you push. All of these cultures have been so terribly damaged by European Christianity. Many pre Christian religions and cultures respected and recognized them. You talk about your faith often, you don’t go full biblical quotes, but it’s there, just beneath the surface.
I see you’re a student of Jordan Peterson, Kester. Another man who likes to spice up his rants with terms that he doesn’t fully understand. Science is the just study of reality. That’s it. You’re pushing philosophy off as science. When it’s not. They may synchronize. But alas, they’re separate concepts. Who do I have backing my corner? Actual biologists and scientists who’ve spent years studying these topics.
I find it amusing that you buy into “born this way” as being scientific, when it’s just metaphor. lol. You’ll buy into all the anecdotal hype that surrounds gay behavior, but then buy into all this anti trans garbage that was pushed by the Gay and Lesbian Community back in the 60’s. Back when it was all about y’all.
“Men performed activities which provided for the welfare and safety of the family and society as fathers and men while women were housewives, mothers, and tended to domestic matters. Your statement is not well informed by history.”
Men forced women into those roles. Men have been forcing women with violence to do their bidding in the west for 8 thousand years. Men forced women to do many things in the west. Women in many cultures were hunters, medicinal practitioners, generals, fighters, warriors, leaders, not just mothers. Men have been limiting what women can and can’t do for a very long time it seems normal. My minor was history, my major was social science. Gender is a matter of psychology, anthropology, biology, and several sciences that you’re ignoring. It’s the reason why it’s not just a matter of biology. Gender is how we shape biology. We shape it with our ideals. It’s why no two cultures have exactly the same beauty standards. You’d know if you weren’t pontificating gender essentialism and gate keeping against trans and queer people.
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Russel A. Kester
Robert James, I was heartened to hear you say, "Gender is based on sex, yes ...." We agree on that. And we're getting to the root issue too. You said, "I learned in college that sex and gender are not the same thing." Your professors were likely sociologists pushing a woke gender queering ideology. They were missionaries peddling their dogma to impressionable youth.
I have referenced scientific findings on gender and sex. I've quoted my sources as well. I don't recall your ever having actually done so. But your statement that, "Gender is how we shape biology." Is a doozy. No, gender does not shape biology, biology shapes gender. So, yes, gender is just a matter of biology.
At one point you said that historically women had been warriors, leaders, hunters, and generals. But in another you said that men forced women into the roles of mother and housewife. So which was it? Were they forced to be bound to domestic matters or were they out in the forefront fighting Attila the Hun? What were the names of great female generals in the Roman or Greek or Arabian armies?
I'm not gate keeping anyone. I am keeping my eye on reality and am not accepting made up social theories without foundations. That's all.
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Robert Gagnon
You can't use reason and facts on the unreasonable
and disillusioned. When your only accomplishment in life is opening a closet door 20 years ago it kind of explains the name calling and childish innuendos evident in Ruhnkes' statements. I was taught that in conversation or debate, the need to insert accusatory remarks displays a lack of character. Thank- you for always being factual and on the mark. -
Russel A. Kester
Robert, thank you for your kind comment.
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Robert James Ruhnke
lol only you Kester would say that Gags is Kind. How easily influenced and gullible you are. lol. He’s the one who pushes you in a mass grave after he makes you dig it after his ilk have dealt with me just for existing not on their foolish terms. The Brownshirts did it it Germany 80 years ago, they’ll do it again whilst wearing a cross and American flag.
Oh Gags, the only thing you’ve ever done of note was be born. An even that’s not your own accomplishment. You saying all that about character and debate from a person who has done nothing but be accusatory and rude to others as they’ve expressed facts and not opinions, is why I think you and Kester here are hypocrites of the highest order.
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Russel A. Kester
Robert, was there anything resembling an philosophical idea or argument in your above comment? If so, I didn't find it.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Prolly cause you’re still looking in the Bible or some Nat Geo from the 50’s, Kester. You’ve been stating at a torch so long you think it’s sunlight.
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Russel A. Kester
Robert, again, do you have anything resembling a logical argument?.
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Robert Gagnon
Hey Buffalo Bob, You don't know me. Never read my book, never had a family and children as I have. From the sound of it never left Kansas much. So you are no authority on children. Puberty blockers are recommended at of onset puberty by your ilk. They are damaging in pausing development. Go to the manufacturers website. As for your comment on my compliments to Russ, I do respect intelligence, but you don't fall in that category. And this is for the child in the room, I was speaking about you, not to you.
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Robert James Ruhnke
No, my professor was a biology Teacher with a penchant for over all LGBTQ-Phobias on his bad days, and a general tolerance of them on his hood days. He and I both agree that “Born this Way,” is just a metaphor for orientation in general, straight or not straight, as it is not a completely biological process, but also an environmental and social one. An so what if people choose to be LTBTQ+, people like yourself choose to be religious fanatics who cloud their ability to cipher logic with superstition.
My sociology professor at HCC voted for Bush Twice, and Obama once. lol He’s Liberal, but hes middling at best. He and I both agree that Woke is just another incarnation of cool from the 60s, and hip from the 70’s as a term to scapegoat the young, non conservative, or both. Both of these professors and I have had our amicable disagreements. They didn’t manipulate, gaslight, or be falsely sincere in their arguments as you’ve been doing. Which is why I do vehemently disagree with you on everything. Because what you stand for is the erasure of people I love just to protect your own skin from people Gagnon.
After HCC I graduated from Kansas State University which is not a hugely Liberal school. I also went to college before Woke became a buzzword for y’all. Missionaries peddling dogma? Hah! Thats you just telling on yourself. Again.
For every Artemisia, Joan of Arc (who was murdered for her out braving men and called a witch for her bravery) and Boudicca, there are thousands of stories of women who fought or resisted their male counterparts influences, did not succeed, and were killed in the attempt. There are entire historical records on ancient Europe where matrifocal cultures were all over the place. With the last of them being The Minoans of Crete. Starting in 7500 BCE wave after wave of Kurgan and Yamnaya peolples invaded Europe with their war gods and patriarchal values. Waves stopped around 3500 BCE.
Artemisia ruled during the overlordship of the Persian king Xerxes. Despite her able command of five ships in the major naval battle with the Greeks off the island of Salamis near Athens, the Persian fleet suffered a severe defeat. Herodotus, a historian who is believed to have been born in Halicarnassus about 484 BCE, claimed that Xerxes acted on her advice when he retreated from Greece at once rather than risk another engagement.
Khawla bint al-Azwar was an Arab Muslim warrior in the service of the Rashidun Caliphate. SHE played a major role in the Muslim conquest of the Levant, and fought alongside her brother Dhiraar. She has been described as one of the greatest female soldiers in history.
Fulvia lived in the last days of the Roman Republic and moved in influential circles. She married Mark Antony and was seen as a partner in his political career. Fulvia defended her husband from Cicero’s brutal linguistic attacks. When Cicero was killed we are told that Fulvia stabbed the tongue of his decapitated head with her hairpin to get revenge on the vile things he had said about her. When Mark Antony and Octavian left Rome to pursue Caesar’s assassins Fulvia was thought to be the one running the city in their absence.
Meanwhile you ignore cultures like the Scythians who trained women to be Calvary and for a time Rome even employed Scythian Lady Calvary to be a police force of sorts.
Nope, gender shapes biology, though to be fair, they shape each other. We took biology into our hands thousands of years ago when began shaping wolves, and small forest cats to domesticated pets. Then 10’000 years ago when we began shaping it further as we’ve Developed agriculture.
Another 3000 year process where we would start it, then abandon it. This process of trial and error which started with women planting gardens in the river deltas across the ancient world. This was also occurring as the Patriarchal cultures were really invading Europe. There is now evidence to show that women in those ages were physically more robust, and through the millennia attempts to curtail that strength have been implemented. Women and anyone who has defended their fair treatment and autonomy were the first systemically exploited groups of people in our history.
Yes, you’re gatekeeping, and no, due to your religious fanaticism clouding your logic. You believe in fairy stories, such as gender essentialism and Christianity. Both have foundations of blood, cruelty, and oppression. I don’t trust conservative Christian gay men because they let their addiction and cult like worship of the phallus and all things surrounding the concept of man cloud their better moral judgement to reality.
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Russel A. Kester
Robert, Joan of Arc is well known, and was treated wrongly. As for Boudicca and Artemisia they lost their battles. The Scythian army was composed almost entirely of men. As a nomadic peoples, yes, women could ride horses and use bows for hunting. Any evidence of their roles in warfare is scant. This doesn't detract from the accomplishments of the females in the examples you cited, but they also point to the millions of men who served their counties, and we remember still these men of renown who were great military commanders.
You asked so what if, I'm paraphrasing, gays and lesbians just choose to be thus. That is a crucial point. We don't choose to be. It is our innate sexuality, not a choice. If you don't see that theories advocating that being male or female or gay or straight is just a choice created by performative acts, then you fail to understand why the gay community fought so hard to disprove this way of thinking. That was how the true religious right attacked us by saying we'd made a lifestyle choice. All of these theories that say these things are all choices and that people can change from one to the other willy- nilly because they are nothing more than social constructions are daft. The truth is that we are born this way and it is not a metaphor. It is determined by biology. And that is why these queer theories are both wrong and harmful to gay people.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Archaeological finds, supported by data from the literary tradition, indicate that women were presented among the Scythian army. 303 burials of Amazons have been recorded on the territory of European Scythia. A characteristic feature of their burials is the mandatory presence of weapons in the accompaniment sets. In the graves of the Amazons there are almost all types of attack weapons, dominated by the items of long-distance combat. The weapons of the female warriors completely corresponded to those in the arsenal of the Scythian army.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/369876988_Weapons_of_long_distance_combat_in_the_arsenal_of_Scythian_female_warriors#:~:text=Archaeological%20finds%2C%20supported%20by%20data,weapons%20in%20the%20accompaniment%20sets. An those are just a few they found. The reason it’s scant to you is because you have a male dominated confirmation bias and you don’t bother actually looking up anything, and even when you do,you dismiss anything that challenges your long held beliefs.
Whether or not they lost is irrelevant. They still fought. The reason more didn’t fight was because it was looked down upon especially in Greek society. Where , depending on the city state, women weren’t allowed to serve. Sparta was an interesting exception, they trained their women to defend hearth and home when the men were out. Your willingness you undermine women’s part in history is atrociously misogynistic.
The problem with just making it about just Gays and Lesbians is that y’all gladly kept Bi people out of the equation for a long time. To this day I’m told by gay men I’m just a closeted a gay. An I get why, they did it, but my attraction to women has never subsided. The way you treat Pan, Aesexual, and the other orientations is just more of the same behavior that was going on 60 years ago when Gays and Lesbians were gatekeeping anyone that wasn’t them.
It’s actually not harmful to choose to be gay. Sexuality is more fluid than it is fixed. Bisexuals prove this. Orientation is a combination of many things, biology is part of it, but it’s not the end all be all you’re trying to push. You’re the one saying social constructs are bad, not I. There you go again attacking people for a reality that’s not black and white as you’re projecting. They did do that, I’m aware, but they’re as wrong as you are on this topic. You’re part of the new religious right, but at as a token to be used and tossed aside. Queer theories are only harmful to selfish and ignorant men like yourself who want try to make the focus of LGBTQ+ liberation about them. Since the 90’s the focus of gay men has lessened, and many are feeling as though they’re being left behind. Instead of keeping up, you throw tantrums and try to harm others with how you vote. Log Cabin Republicans are a great example of this. If it was solely biology then there were wouldn’t be so many closeted gay married men with kids. lol. That tells me our biology can be overwritten by our willpower.
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Russel A. Kester
Robert, when you wrote, "our biology can be overwritten by our willpower" you are clearly channeling Anita Bryant and ilk. No, willpower does not overwrite biology. The truth is vice-versa. Biology wins against willpower every time. Again, sexuality is a completely different issue than gender incongruence. One is biological the other is best handled by mental healthcare professionals. It seems you are dealing with many issues in your life. I wish you every success as you do so.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Transvestite is a dated word that has fallen out of favor for the more poppy Drag. They’re two separate things. To Wong Foo, Thank You For Everything, Julie Newmar. Covered this up very nicely I thought. There’s a few drag dudes running around who are straight, not many, but a few. Heck even Reagan did drag way back when.
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Russel A. Kester
Robert, for once we are pretty much in agreement. We'd better check the temperature in hell quickly! 😉
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Rev. Klaire ThD, MA
Lol! I just blew coffee out of my nose! Those aren't even the same thing. They were never interchangeable words for the same thing. If you thought they were, it gives us some great insight into how shallow you likely look at many issues that you don't understand. As well, if you don't understand how a spectrum is constructed as it relates to any topic, you likely can't comprehend the depth of this topic. It's a topic that is managed, controlled, and described by science; not by myth, belief, or faith, all of which have no ability to describe or define issues of science.
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Danny D. Maynard
Transvestite == Drag queen == Female Impersonator. Transexual == Person where brain's sex/sexuality does not match his/her physical sex/sexuality.
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Lionheart
I guess the same can be said for those who want to identify as a Pony. Personally, I think we should feed them hay, and put them all out to grass. 🤭
I know someone who identifies herself as a pup, but for some unknown reason, she refuses to eat out of the dog bowl. I don’t get it.🤷🏼
🦁❤️
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Robert Gagnon
Original definition of transvestite is fetish fulfilled by wearing clothes of the opposite sex. It is separate from sexual attraction. Trans gender Is the process imitating the opposite sex through actions and alterations of appearance and behavior. This also is separate from sexual attraction in theory.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Gags don’t talk about things you don’t know anything about.
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Robert Gagnon
You're not the expert. Probably not good at what you do.
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Robert James Ruhnke
I’m more an expert on many of the topics discussed than you, Gags. You just provide half baked anecdotes based on superstitious nonsense that was debunked 50 years ago.
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Robert Gagnon
In a simpletons mind he is king.
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Robert James Ruhnke
No Kings, no masters, Gags. I am no King. Another relic concept of the past, much like your gender essentialist beliefs.
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Robert Gagnon
OK, just a run of the mill simpleton.
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
The more categories of people, that Christians abandon during their times of need, the more the ULC becomes a viable alternative to such objectionable prejudice and discrimination. Thanks for being what you are, FFRF.
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Laura McAllister
Transgender , gay people if they’re fine with their lives and their family and everybody else shouldn’t say anything. Just because they’re different doesn’t mean they’re mean or rotten. I know a few very nice. I had dinner with them. They come for barbecues and what the world is going through now. Do we really need to worry about what the world thinks about transgender people maybe that’s why the world’s a mess God said I love their neighbor how many who have something to say actually talk to a transgender or sat at dinner or them don’t judge.
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Mark Gilgen
i dont judge them thats GODS job and it clearly states what he thinks in the Bible.
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Brien
The bible is a man made construct, just like the mythical being. So your statement of what your mythical being thinks is simply a reflection of zealot ideology. But you are free to live your life as others are free to live theirs.
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Russel A. Kester
Yes, Mark, the Christian Bible does indeed read that God loves them. Everyone. And it says that if you're a Christian, then you are to love them too. If you don't, then you are not following the highest commandments in the Bible. So where's the love, Mark?
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Harvey Zeller
My only concern is transgender competition in female sports. If and until all genders can compete together, a future that is hard to see coming to fruition, I think it can skew results in unfair and obvious ways. A transgender female who has developed bigger, taller, stronger, etc. being previously male identified, will not compensate for this with gender affirming formulary. So she will always be a male competing with females in a female sport.
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ServantOfJudgement
It's a fair concern Harvey. I watched a couple fighting matches with a chic and a dude as a chic. OMG! It turned my stomach, the woman was pulverized. Just unthinkable that anybody could believe that's a fair fight. So much for woman's liberation, now if a guy wants to slap around a chic, he can do it legal in the ring.
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Rev. Klaire ThD, MA
Soj, that's about the most uninformed, uneducated, fear driven comment in this thread.
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In my view, our attitudes towards people and their respective genders need a good bit of scientific education and understanding before we declare what is "natural" and "unnatural". Who are we to say, one way or another?
What I do know is: mankind has messed around with the natural world enough to create six-legged frogs, three-eyed fish and unhabitable zones around the globe. Who's to say that our own biology hasn't been affected with all the pollution we've managed to create in the air, the water and on the land since the start of the Industrial revolution?
Who's to say that several genders haven't always existed and our scientific understanding is just beginning to catch up?
We are not very accurate interpreters of the mind of God, as evidenced by the numerous different belief systems that exist. We gain nothing by ignoring the scientific views on this or any other subject.