Does a restaurant that offers wedding catering have the right to refuse service to same-sex couples?
JJ’s ToGo in Centralia, Washington seems to think so, and recently canceled their previously agreed upon catering contract with a couple after learning they were same-sex.
The owners said they did not come by the decision lightly, but ultimately decided to follow their Christian faith and deny the couple service over their sexuality, but the couple says that their faith is simply a cover for bigotry.
Now, the restaurant is facing massive backlash from consumers, and may soon be facing legal action from the Washington state government.
The Right to Refuse Service?
The outrage began after Ali Duncan, the mother of one of the brides-to-be, posted on social media about how her daughter and future daughter-in-law were denied service at JJ’s.
“This afternoon my daughter Ryah Calkins and her fiancé Lillian Glover entered a restaurant in Centralia, Washington known as JJ’s TO GO,” she wrote on her Facebook page. “It was an exciting event for them as they were meeting with the owner to pay with cash, in full, for the catering of their wedding in January. As they were approached by the owner, she looked at them both and upon noticing they were both female, she proceeded to tell them she was refusing service for the catering services they had previously agreed upon….because Lili and Ryah are same sex partners. Other than the fact that this was completely hurtful and shocking to the girls, it is also ILLEGAL IN WASHINGTON STATE.”
Bad Reviews Roll In
Following the post, backlash against the restaurant spread like wildfire, and the restaurant received scores of negative reviews on their Facebook page and on review websites like Yelp.
“Their cakes are full of hate. The vibes are bad,” wrote one reviewer. “And the service comes with a side helping of Bible thumping bigotry.”
“If you enjoy mediocre at best food served by a business that outrightly refuses service to people because of their sexual orientation, this is the place for you,” wrote another. “Discrimination and hate. Hard pass and shame on this business, I'm ashamed to have them in my community.”
The Restaurant’s Response
As the restaurant was inundated with bad press and negative comments and reviews, the owners issued a statement admitting that their faith guided them to deny service to the couple due to their sexuality - but they said it was out of love.
“It is extremely important to us that you both know we love you,” the restaurant owners wrote to the couple on Facebook. But “every decision that is made is based on our faith in Jesus Christ.”
“No amount of money could make us bend our beliefs,” they said.
Is This Legal?
Bakers, florists, invitation designers… Just about every type of wedding vendor you can imagine has turned away same-sex couples in the last decade, citing a Christian belief that marriage is only between a man and a woman (though one wedding venue cited Christian belief when they denied service to a mixed race couple).
And though some of these cases have made their way to the Supreme Court - and the same-sex denying businesses have even won - the rulings have always been narrow enough to not set any sort of legal precedent.
So will the restaurant end up in legal trouble?
The Washington Law Against Discrimination prohibits discrimination against individuals on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity, and does not allow an exemption for religious beliefs. And Washington has some of the strongest protections for the LGBTQ+ community, and Washington’s state government is one of the most aggressive in legally pursuing discrimination cases.
The whole situation brings up an interesting question. When it comes to legally protecting the LGBTQ+ community from discrimination, and the rights of Christian business owners to express their faith, where, exactly, is the line?
Considering that the restaurant’s allegedly already been reported to the state Attorney General, we may soon find out.
142 comments
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Teresa Freeman
It was just as legal ,when I bartended and exercised the right to refuse service , but is it right ? No , we are All family , and supposed to be focused on third earth age , not this one , we are commanded to live God and our fellow man ,even our enemies , judgement of this matter belongs to God , the person refusing service I'm sure isn't perfect, none of us are
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Teresa Freeman
It was just as legal ,when I bartended and exercised the right to refuse service , but is it right ? No , we are All family , and supposed to be focused on third earth age , not this one , we are commanded to live God and our fellow man ,even our enemies , judgement of this matter belongs to God , the person refusing service I'm sure isn't perfect, none of us are
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Teresa Freeman
It was just as legal ,when I bartended and exercised the right to refuse service , but is it right ? No , we are All family , and supposed to be focused on third earth age , not this one , we are commanded to live God and our fellow man ,even our enemies , judgement of this matter belongs to God , the person refusing service I'm sure isn't perfect, none of us are
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Minister Holly B Lovey
Question: Have most of you on this blog read the Word of God? All of it? Not just a sentance that you take out of it and make it what you want it to be. Most of what I see here tells me the answer is no. Please, read it all. 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽
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Lori-Ann Neeb
How many versions? I would be the last person to take a person's Bible from them. I believe the only dogma that matters is Love God, Do good deeds, Go Home. So if having that book around inspires one's spiritual heart to be the best person they can be, keep ten in every room if that floats your boat. Even as inaccurate man made publication, it has done its job for you. But God gave us brains also. Read as many versions as you can with an open and inquisitive mind.
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Minister Holly B Lovey
I don't need 10 bibles in any room. The word is God. As I asked, Have most of you on this blog read the Word of God? So, have you? It is quite clear to me.
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Gary Leu
When these restaurant owners say they "love" everyone I wonder what that means. It brings a lot of quesitons to my mind. For example, are you really loving someone if they don't feel your love? Love is a verb. What are they doing to show love to this couple, to make them feel loved? And how are they so sure that thier God wouldn't rather them cater the wedding and be the example or love they profess to be? I wonder if they're mostly just giving their God a lot of bad press. (hehe)
Bless.
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Minister Holly B Lovey
I will keep my beliefs. Jesus didn't sway for anyone. A lot of today's so called Christians bend to what we know is wrong. We also have the right to say NO the same as anyone else. We cannot pick and choose based on someone else's thoughts but pray and seek out everything to God. Also, no one else is going to decide whether what is right or wrong for me because too many people, in my own opinion, think opposite of scripture by wording their words "pretty" and trust me, that didn't save me and it won't save anyone else in the end. The Word of God is clear in many places and I would use concordance as well because scripture is a lot of times based on the specific full context of that chapter wheras other scripture is more related to what you are searching for. I will not sway and I don't believe it is a choice to sway. I will not marry anyone out side of male/female union. Look at The Book of Genesis.
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Kenneth Kling
It seems to me that this incident has nothing that appeases everyone. I’m guessing that the owner and his wife talked about it, prayed on it and may even asked trusted friends for guidance. They can’t “Post a sign” stating their faith and tolerances. Everyone has an “arm chair” opinion. Here’s hoping that you never have to face a situation where your moral attitude gets challenged. I wonder if you’d keep or abandon your beliefs?
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Jeffrey Talbutt
I am a gay man, that is involved in Church, and am an Usher at my Church...I have dealt with rejection, and being turned away from Churches because of my sexuality. My understanding of being a "True Christian" is to love all of Gods children. Who are we to judge anyone? Is God not the only judge? Why can't I have my Faith with who I am? Does God make mistakes? Do you think that I made this decision to be persecuted, judged, mistreated, rejected, shunned, abused? I surely say NOT!! I believe that some folks have made this decision in there lives to be who they are, and that is their story. Why can't, I, Minister Jeff, a gay man, a Child of God, be accepted by other Christians? Without Judgement?
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Lisbeth Kieran Bushey
Them being threatened isn't acceptable.
If you feel that strongly about the LGBTQ+ community, you should find another job/career field. Reminds me of a story my grandfather would tell me about when his father first came to America. He was searching for a job for quite some time due to all the signs in the business' windows.
Every single sign read "No Irish need apply". Many of them went further.
This is illegal discrimination, simple as. This is just as illegal as it would be to put that sign next to a "help wanted" poster.
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Mel Lane
This is strictly me and not an endorsement or denial of service. It is just me, but if a business does not want to serve me. I for one am not going to enrich their wealth. But neither am I going to destroy their livelihood by demanding service nor am I going to smear their them because they refused service to me. It is time that we all get a little backbone and stop the whining when we are confronted with people that see things different than we see it. If one place won't serve you there are literally millions that will. All too often it is an agenda rather than an offense against something. Get a life for God's sake.
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Ari Joseph Bertine
Look, we live in different times now and we need to adapt. Discrimination has come back and it's more popular than ever, and it's not going away now that the American public has chosen decisively to foster alienation, distrust, and misunderstanding as a way of life. So here's what we need to do:
Get rid of protection from any sort of discrimination whatsoever in retail businesses. Let people refuse service to any group of customers they don't want to serve, whether it's LGBTQ+, elderly, black, white, ginger, underweight, any flavor of religious, or disabled folks. It's their business and they have a right to sell to whomever they please, and refuse those they don't want.
Legally require a business to post prominently and clearly who they refuse to serve, where it can be seen by an prospective customer. That means on every customer entrance, on window signs, and in every single advertisement, as well as on Google info if someone just looks up the business address. That way, people will known well beforehand if the business won't serve them or a group that means something to them, so the business will never have to come into contact with anyone that is part of or supports a group of people that it refuses to serve.
Prosecute any backlash to these businesses besides avoidance and word of mouth advertising. Name-calling, harassment, vandalism, and threats are all already illegal and should be more aggressively dealt with.
Encourage businesses that DO serve groups rejected by other businesses to advertise their acceptance.
Prosecute any backlash to those businesses besides avoidance and word of mouth advertising. Name-calling, harassment, vandalism, and threats are all already illegal and should be more aggressively dealt with.
Remind people that shunning is legal but most confrontations are not. Freedom of speech is not more important than a person's safety. Freedom of speech does not cover threats, vandalism, displays of aggression, disturbing the peace, disrupting a business, or harming someone in any way. This goes for BOTH sides of any issue, without exception.
Now everyone can play in their own little rooms with the people they want. But that's okay, because as we've seen, division is the new way of life in the--well, I'll leave the United part off because that's obsolete--in the States of America. That's how we do things and we're just going to have to deal with it and survive the best we can without worrying about other people. We are no longer a nation of the people and for the people, we are a nation of the opinions and for the individual. Welcome to the SA*.
*Unfortunate initials, but maybe in a few years no one will remember it ever having stood for anything else anyway.
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John Parks
I totally understand their moral convictions. They feel like providing catering services is condoning a relationship that they see as sinful.
On the other hand they are not honoring a contractual agreement for their services.
We all will stand before God and be judged someday. We should all live our lives in a way that honors God, our beliefs, and conscience.
I don't think there is a right or wrong answer here. They should not be scorned or punished, as long as they gave their customers adequate time to find an alternate venue.
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Hannah Kay Colwell
If refusing service is illegal they should not be able to do it. Plus they already agreed to do it Wouldn't that be a breach of contract?
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Michael D. Manns
I marry same sex couples in Indiana, Indiana has a law that allows businesses to discrimination for Christian base owner to deny service of any kind to the LGBT community. Chic fa la restaurants does it everyday.
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Anne Marie Spanik
There is 1 bible inspired by God himself that are His true words to guide all of God’s creation.
Proverbs 30:5-6 “Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, less he rebuke you and you be found a liar.” The Supreme Court changed the word of God therefore a lie occurred and will be rebuked by God.
James 1:21 “ therefore, put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive with meekness The implanted word, which is able to save your souls.”
These are God’s words …
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Alycin Bellamy
What I hear is conflict in the owner's beliefs. Their belief in Christ is all encompassing and denies them to be of service to this couple, yet it is perfectly acceptable to receive funds from this couple and any same-gendered/non-traditional couple when purchasing food otherwise (read that, supporting their livelihood). What the Bible purports is love. The love of humanity. The love of Christ. The love of ourselves and others. And in the process, it quite clearly advises that not one of us is in the place to judge others. Discern what is best for one's actions and leave judgment out of it. This denial may be a 'right,' yet it is quite certainly outside of Christ's teachings, and sketchy at best...and definitely not Love.
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Alexander Clarke
Who cares if the couple getting married is gay or interracial or anything else? Just provide the service, collect the money and quit letting your religious beliefs get in the way of conducting business. I work with the public, all of the public, and in does not make any difference who the public is it is my job to provide the same service to all. I don't let my personal beliefs or prejudices or bias get in the way. Religion is about controlling what you think, say, do and separating you from your wealth.
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Thomas Rizzo
SCOTUS has made other decision like separate but equal is fine. It was only period until it was changed.
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Lion on the Beach
Not intolerance. It's called choice.
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Michael Hunt
The choice to be intolerant.
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CJC
The real problem is when people give their religious reasons for refusing service. It is far kinder to say you are busy that day, but no, they say it's my x-ianity, as if they will convert them, or show they are above them. A little fib is kinder and not likely to impact the business.
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Louise Marie Harmon
The restaurant said their decision to deny service was made because, "...their faith guided them to deny service to the couple due to their sexuality - but they said it was out of love". Out of love"? In what universe do their actions resemble love? There is a great quote that has guided me throughout much of my life: "The greatest evil is the sin of separation." As soon as you look at someone else as 'other', you are responding out of fear, not love.
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Daniel Todd Kamm
"Do not do anything to your neighbor that you do not want to have done to you, " and it's many incarnations across faith systems way older than the ethnocentric "big 3."
Did some of these people miss that?
That' rule is # 1 everywhere... and way before the "big 3." It's been taught over and over from faith system and practice to faith system and practice.
Read closely, and omit the details... as the old folks said... "everything else is commentary...."
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Daniel Todd Kamm
I vote with my dollars... I don't care if a business is the only one in town,... there is such a thing as procuring one's needs elsewhere and online ... almost immediately.
Unless a point has to be made. And here a point probably should be made.
Keep the religion at home where it belongs, and deal fairly in the space we all share.
I believe that is one of their Jesus' suggestions.
No one seems to have caught that one.
So the ones who make a fuss in public are hypocrites, and they also violate the one and only rule most beliefs share.
It's the one at the top, and it has nothing to do with media attention or litigation.
Reb tk
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Rev Ned
If a gun store sells a firearm that is later used in a murder or robbery, have the people at the gun store participated in the crime?
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Calvin Mclaurin
The power of agreement is a fundamental principle that is overlooked. If I’m in agreement with a principle of Satan/Devil, by default, I’m in disagreement with God. The Bible is a judicial book. God is the first Judge. Like a politician who sets laws and votes on particular issues wants a person vote to keep them in office, we make decisions daily that will be judged as well. The ability to choose is a great gift that was given to us by the Creator, we also can use that gift against the Creator. I ask this, If two women or men being together (civil union/married) at the start of creation was, would their be any progeny, or generation after? If that wasn’t acceptable at the beginning, why should it be acceptable now? Has God changed? Has he weakened? Why serve a weak God?
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Patricia Ann Gross
Calvin,
How does the one man/one woman concept of marriage come anywhere close to the way marriage was described in The Bible? How does it compare to the way marriage was practiced in the time of Abraham, Moses, David, or Jesus? Marriage at that time was polygamous and for the purposes of procreation. Women were property of their fathers who sold them to become wives of their husbands. Most husbands had multiple wives and some had concubines (i.e., mistresses) as well. Are you suggesting that is a place we need to return, even though the world has significantly evolved? Jewish texts are updated to keep up with the changing times and new discoveries in science and technology. Christian texts don't follow suit, so we are stuck with an 1700 year old document and trying to use the science, history, and technology of 428 C.E. to define how we live in a world that has become overpopulated and is rife with technology that the early followers of Jesus could have never understood.
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Justin Framstad
I looked into this business, and on their website, the have a Bible verse listed. Personally, I believe that companies SHOULD have the right to refuse service for any reason. But I also think that some people search out religiously run companies HOPING to be turned away so they can cry "discrimination" and get free stuff, like what happened to the baker in Oregon.
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Julie Armstrong
The right to refuse to serve. Go someplace else. Respect their belief
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Teresa Freeman
This situation is universal, I used to be a bartender and had the right to refuse service, you can fire someone in Texas without cause, a whole bunch of mass revision and mental destruction , I remember Jesus coming up on a situation that was against tradition , and a group was going to stone a prostitute, Jesus wrote in the sand, most likely names of her customers then said,,, Who without sin ,,cast the first stone, noone can judge noone , we all will stand before the throne,,Jesus said to love our enemy , no matter what we feel is the enemy
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Mrknowitall
This is America, it's their right to refuse service. You don't like it too bad
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Patricia Ann Gross
First, how is reaching out in love and then backhanding the couple showing Christian love? For this, I have to say they are not in any way following an example of Christ. Do they honestly believe that honoring the contract would somehow deny their Christian faith? Jesus healed believers, sinners and non-believers. Jesus fed hungry people from many countries gathered around to hear him. Never once did Jesus say, I love you but my beliefs are more important than your needs. Jesus' first miracle was turning the water into wine at a wedding in Cana, so that the couple could celebrate according to their customs. Second, where they are right: The couple needs to find a caterer that will celebrate with them rather than look down their noses at them throughout the joyful ceremony. Third, I'm not sure from the story here if they actually signed the contract for the service before they were denied, or they just verbally agreed to do the event. If they signed before the event, why didn't they refuse to sign rather than sign and then try to cancel the contract? That may make a difference on the legal aspect.
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Jamie Frost
As a wedding consultant and caterer to be... Companies have the right to refuse services ... Yes, they should have told the couple their "policies" before agreeing to be there caterer, but if they truly believe that same sex couples are a sin why be forcing them to continue the work and pushing LGB+ views into them? That's just as bad.. the wedding families just need to move on and find someone else..
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Danielle Francesca Allen
It’s their business so they have the right to turn people away. Just as I have the right to understand that they are against what I believe as a Christian myself and I would not put money towards supporting their establishment. This world is made of choices. I choose to live in a space where I feel safe and welcomed. I pray that one day they open their eyes and see God as a loving God.
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Frederick Charles Whitmarsh Junior
You sound very enlightened.
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Jay Michael Burrell
Just a short post. I am a gay man and I am married to my husband of 27 years and yes we were married in a Christian church here in the UK. Thankfully we didn’t have anything like this to deal with but I also believe in freedom of speech and the right to choose so if a company does not want to cater for a same sex couple then this is up to them. Instead of gays throwing a hissy fit over it, move on and find somewhere that will. Life is too short to be moaning about things like this. The only way same sex couples will truly have freedom and acceptance in all areas of life is to live a normal life. Just my thoughts of course and I’m not here to argue or comment back and forth.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
US Taliban with beliefs from ignorant, Bronze Age, nomadic, desert goat herders.
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Jeffrey Lynn Williams
If they dont want to serve you, go to someplace else. And I'm gay.
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Pastor Lyn
Unfortunately Jeffrey, I know that town and do not live to far away from it.
There really isn't anywhere else to go without traveling miles and the people in that town are pretty much all the same. It's a small town mentality that swears they take care of their own. They omit to also state that there is a clause in there that says only those that agree with them. I'm from a small Midwest town. I know the dirty skeletons in those closets.
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
Christianity really is a hate group.
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Carol J VanderMiller
It is most unfortunate that this is your belief. It is not Christianity that is a hate group but individuals who have their own personal belief system & also happen to have a membership in a group that has a variety of opinions on a variety of subject areas & people like yourself seem to lump everyone in a specific group they are a member of stating that that group must stand for the belief of one of their members. There are many who belong to a specific belief group that are constantly learning because we all need to heal, progress & become more centered in treating everyone equally & fairly. Unfortunately the world is not there yet nor are its people. We are all a work in progress.
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James Riggle-Johnson
I’m not surprised. The Supreme Court made it legal to refuse service based on their sincerely held religious beliefs. I guess they think it’s okay to agree to do the wedding for the customer and wait for them to come and pay and say, “Oh wait… didn’t I tell you I won’t do business with your kind?”
This company will lose business because of the bad press they’re going to get and then they will scream religious persecution. It’s okay for them to push people away but they don’t deserve it. Once you are allowed to discriminate against one group of people, you open the door to other groups being discriminated against.
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Eugene T Rice
There was a time in this country when a huge number of businesses refused to serve black people. Then LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Today the bigots target gay people and, knowing that religion occupies a special place in America, use it to justify their vile discrimination. Saying "Jesus made me do it" seems both cowardly and almost sacrilegious. I am not the sharpest knife in the draw but even I remember "Judge not least ye be judged".
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Daniel Gray
Sigh, whine and complain all you want, but the SCOTUS already said this can be done and its legal. If you have a problem with the SCOTUS then make a trip to DC and complain to them. lets see how far that gets you
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Lori-Ann Neeb
Does the date January 6th ring any bells? The idiots who handed the keys to the front door of the white house to the terrorist that incited a riot on the capital did just that. Why? Because he was throwing a toddlers temper tantrum over losing the election and not wanting to leave. Surprise. Surprise he is just fine with all of this election results though isn`t he?
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Daniel Gray
Guess you refused to watch the whole thing where he told them to protest peacefully or go home. But then again that not a suprise that you did this coming from you
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Michael Hunt
That's a pretty obvious whitewashing of Trump's actions on Jan 6. Did you forget that it took hours for him to put out the video telling them to go home? Did you forget about the aids who said he was happy watching the coverage of the insurrection? Or how about, ""We fight like hell. And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore," as a rallying cry to his supporters, winding them up to attack the capital building.
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Daniel Gray
Whos whitewashing anything? The DOJ and the FBI and the Secret Service and the Video all show exactly what I said, that Trump said to protest peacefully or go home, but I see this does not fit your fantasy.
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Nicholas J Page
It's the 21st century we should love everyone I'm heterosexual but I support same sex marriage this isn't the dark ages when gays had to keep quiet and in the closet.So I hope the ladies take legal action and win .Let this be a lesson to all you gay haters because that's what you are.We have 2 gay ladies as neighbours and we all get on well together.
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Colleen McAllister
Jesus told us to obey the secular laws. The caterer needs to be up front about who they serve. Discriminatory? Yes. But if the law says they cannot discriminate then legally they need to serve that couple.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
If that photo is of the actual business owner, I wonder if her thoughts would be different if she were old enough to remember when so many businesses posted white only on their doors?
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Pastor Lyn
I was thinking the same thing. But I went to their website. They are both white females. So there is no lesson there. Sadness
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William E Muldrew
I believe everyone and business should have the right to run their business based on their beliefs. If you can't stand behind your beliefs then you really don't believe in what you say. I judge not any man or woman, for I not be judge my them but buy God. To force people to follow laws that are against their beliefs is being a governmental personal involvement in people faith which is against all that is right in the world. I pray that people investigate the service of a business before putting them self and the business in a compromising position.
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Reverend Paula Copp
Soooo… if I decide that I want to run a business which catered only to women because of misandry, can I refuse service to any/every man, even if that man wanted to buy something? Is that not considered gender discrimination? BTW, I am not a misandrist.
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
You could probably get away with discriminating against men but you'd soon find yourself in serious trouble if you applied the same discrimination against women.
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Thomas P. Davis
I totally agree with you, it is your business and you're in it to make a profit. If you are unable to make the money to sustain the business than you can change the rules.
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Michael Hunt
So are you saying that the government shouldn't have ended segregation? Should Jim Crow laws still be on the books? Should there be a whites counter and a coloreds counter in restaurants?
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Rev james
I completely agree with you
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Alexander Arends
I don't see the caterers having to do anything in the wedding ceremony that would interfere with their religeous beliefs. They are not asked to perform any ritual. They may not agree with same sex marriage, but they serve other people who have opposite beliefs. The caterers should have honored the the contract they agreed to.
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John Parks
Comment removed by user.
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Mark Gilgen
I wont condemn people for following their beliefs. It is their busyness so they can run it as they see fit. One question would be WHY do you want to try to force them to accept you and have it there? Is it JUST to FORCE your belief on them? In that case who is right, What would Jesus say and do?
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James Riggle-Johnson
Mark, I get it… why not just go somewhere else? The problem is that the couple had a contract with the business and then the business canceled it when they went to pay. Now, they have no choice but to find another catering company. I doubt they will use this company in the future, but they need to be called out for their bigotry.
You read in the article about the other wedding venue who said they wouldn’t serve a mixed-race couple because of their religious beliefs. When you let someone deny service to one group of people, they add other groups to their DO NOT SERVE lists.
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Mark Hannon
Might as well get used to it now. I expect this to be the way of life in many places.
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Rev. BH
Here we go again. Another business that turns away income. Smart, huh?
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Daniel Gray
their business, so what business is it of yours?
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Rev. BH
Dan, another keen and insightful comment. Thanks!
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Daniel Gray
And I guess you seem to ignore the Same Sex teachers that were fired when they violated the contract they signed at a religious school, or the people who were slapped down by the SCOTUS in the Cake Making decision or the flower arrangement decision or the one in Miching where the city tried to ban a farmer when he refused to allow his property to be used for a SSW and the city lost close to 2 million dollars when they were ordered by the courts to reverse their decision.
Seems the Court do not agree with your snarky remark and clearly have said all over this country that what the store owner is doing is perfectly legal.
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Rev. BH
I'm sure the Supreme Court is totally unaware of my "snarky" remark and therefore couldn't agree or disagree with me. I doubt if they read these blogs. And my original comment with which you're so upset, is about businesses losing money to make a point. I didn't suggest they should be forced to do anything. Please read what I wrote, not what you imagine.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
Mr. Gray, you Don't care about right or wrong. Like all fundamentals and fanatics. You see only what you want to see and always will. Stop trying yo judge others and just speak your beliefs if you want. You ate closed minded so doubtful you cand be taught anything. Whatever.
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Daniel Gray
Maybe but it just goes to show how wrong you are in this case.
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Pastor Lyn
Christians continuously teach and indoctrinate their children that God and Jesus loves everyone and hate has no place. Then those children become adults and find that in their Churches reality, God is actually hateful and vindictive. You know, like humans. I cannot continue to believe in a god that is hateful, unmerciful, vindictive and shallow. I refuse. I want to believe in the description of a decent, loving God that you sell to your children in Sunday School.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
Do not blame God for what men and women do. He does loves all His children the same. All organized religions are manmade. Any one that supports or promotes hate or judgement is not of or from God. The followers do what they choose to do and later try to justify but in God's name when God has nothing to do with it.
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Richard David Atwood
if it is your place of business, then it is your call who you sell to, and for what reason. If the owner doesn't want to sell you what they have for sale, then go someplace that will sell it to you. This crap of going to the police or gov because someone doesn't want to do business with you is BS. It's not the duty of the police or the gov to tell you who you can or can't do business with. You have the right to refuse business with anyone you want. Go into almost any store and read the signs. "We have the right to refuse to serve anyone". "No shirt no shoes, no service. Grow up. Quit being a crybaby Karen and go someplace else. NO ONE has the right to tell you what you can or can't do in your own home or business, simple fact.
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
So you are ok with discrimination against BIPOC People. And how about women who wear pants? Men with long braids? A man wearing a pink shirt? A person with profound disabilities?
The entire idea of “deeply held religious beliefs” is nothing more than being a toddler who thrashes on the floor when they don’t get their own way.
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Daniel Gray
and is perfectly legal according to the SCOTUS
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Michael Hunt
That worked out really well for lunch counters in the Jim Crow South, Daniel. Discrimination isn't legal.
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Daniel Gray
And its still going on when you have left wing people refusing to serve someone just because they are wearing a Trump hat. Now before you say that this is their business and they can pick and choose who they want to deal with, thats what I was trying to tell you before you picked out something at random. And again Blacks cannot help the color of their skin, but no matter how you try and spin it, there is absolutely no such thing as being "born that way" nor any gay gene and there are thousands of people who suddenly decided they wanted to switch teams and that Michael is fact both scientifically and medically so there isnt a thing you can do to complain about it.
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Michael Hunt
So when did you decide that you were straight? You must have had sexual desires for Men as well as Women and you simply chose to like Women more.
And why the hell would someone choose to be persecuted and hated by their community, even having their life threatened? If they simply chose to be gay, they would intentionally be inviting a threat to their livelihood.
The truth of the matter, Daniel, whether you wish to accept it or not, is that some people are queer and some people are straight and there's nothing we can do to change it.
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Daniel Gray
Again nice try at spin there child. But then again since you have had everything taken away from you by the majority of the country I guess this is all you have left.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
Feeling a bit full of yourself there mr gray? Just because there is a naxi wannabe thug back in the while house? The war is not over by a long shot. God may have to allow evil to exist here so those of us reincarnated can learn or experience whatever we chart for our lives this time around to learn or experience to perfect our souls for God but evil always loses in the long game. Your Uncle Donnie isn't the youngest or healthiest these days .
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Daniel Gray
No just telling fact from fantasy, and its no skin off my nose if you dont like it Lori
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Lori-Ann Neeb
Where is this world you live on where these facts you spout come from? Wherever it is take your fanatic friends with you and be happy there... Please. But it is no skin off my nose if you disagree either. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. You do need to crawl out from under your rock once in a while and read or study more than that tiny world of yours. How do you know why someone has one mindset over another? We all have live many lives to perfect our souls as we choose. The reason why someone is attracted to one gender over another is simple. Our real selves have genders at Home. Depending on what we wish to learn or experience in the upcoming life we chart for ourselves we may choose to reincarnate as the opposite gender to our real ones there. But we retain the same natural attractions. Think about it, Mr. Gray,how many lives you could have lived as a gay man?
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Joseph P Aleks
Race, gender national origin, disability are all valid criteria for protection from discrimination. Holding dangerous beliefs such as LGBT/pedo are not because they harm people by their nature
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Lori-Ann Neeb
Many people live alternate lifestyles and are a threat to no one. If a person is a threat to others it has nothing to do with their lifestyle. It is their mindset . If a person belongs to a white supremacy hate group are they OK because they are white and presumably straight? But they will get even worse now that their hate mongering uncle Donnie will be back in the white house. Where the hell is some people's brains. A person incites a riot 9n your nztions capital as he is throwing a toddlers tempertantrum because he lost and doesn't want to leave . That person belongs in a federal prison with all the other terrorists. What brainless idiots hand the keys to the door back to the terrorist? That must some f8ne kool-aid his factory puts out.
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Michael Hunt
LGBTQ+ persons and pedophiles are not the same thing, no matter how much the far-right wants to tie them together. Being LGBTQ+ harms no one and has nothing to do with sexually abusing children. Meanwhile the Catholic Church has been protecting pedophiles for centuries. I guess it's time to discriminate against the Catholic Church since they're actively harming children, by your logic.
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Jeffrey Talbutt
I don't understand why people place the LGBTQIA+ Community and "pedos" together. There are way more cases of that crime within the "straight" Community than there is in the gay community.....this is just pure ignorance. If you feel threatened by the gay population, than you need to clean your own skeletons out of your closet. Judgement is not for us, as flesh and blood, to give to anyone else. Why is society so ignorant? What would make a "straight" man feel threatened by a gay man? There is no such thing, that I know of, in the gay community as "straight bashing", but yet there is plenty of "gay bashing" taking place. Please, community, stop grouping these two groups together!!
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Lori-Ann Neeb
Have you learned nothing from history? Remember the days when "whites only" signs were everywhere? That did not change until good people stood up against it.
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Pastor Lyn
I really believe you are wrong when it comes to businesses. Even what you do in your own home has exceptions to this clause. Are you saying that abuse of children should be nobody's business if it's done in the privacy of your own home? Pedophiles everywhere would love that. Abusive men and women would love it as well. We wouldn't have to worry about most children because they'd be dead. Isn't there a consequence to your business if you choose hate and discrimination as your business plan? You end up losing more money than you would have saved. It could mean your success or failure. Abuse in any form should be pushed into the light of the public. And any ministry that preaches hate is not ok, it is a slippery slope for most of the congregation that chooses the pastors ideals over better humans. Make no mistake. God never preaches hatred of any kind, that's what humans choose to do. I understand there is a sect of Christianity out there for whatever you personally believe in. Wish to abuse your wife and children? There's a sect of Christianity for that. Want to treat your wife like a slave or a thing? There's a sect for that. Want to be a pedophile? There are quite a few sects for that. Dirty little secrets in so many sects of Christianity, Muslim or Judaism. Pick your kindness, choose your morality. Choose the kind of person you want to be in life. I personally choose to our hatred, abuse, ignorance. I choose to be a better human than some pastor is telling me to be.
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Calvin Mclaurin
Malachi 1 says that the LORD “hated Esau”. The Lord God does express hatred Ms. Lynn. If you are familiar with law, the law of first mention is that the first time a thing is mention its precedented. Genesis is a good book for those who chose to believe and it outlines Creator Gods intentions and will. God mad man. He designed him and gave him unique abilities, features, and personality. Same as women. When we are not in agreement with Gods original intent, He hates that. When we dishonor women, we dishonor Him. When we dishonor men, we dishonor Him. His purpose in creating the human species was and always will be love. However, he gave us our own volition to choose His love. Not it being forced upon us. That’s total love! Sadly we began to choose opposite of His original intent. That is and always be man’s greatest Battle.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
Calvin, hatred is a human fault. God does not hate any if his children. God has nothing to do with any kind of hatred, judgment or bigotry. Your Bible is a man made book published by a corrupt church at the time with its own agendas. They picked and chose what to include and then kept changing and editing that until they had a product that fit their own agendas. Man's greatest battle is learning not to hate, not learning who it is supposedly ok to hate.
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Pastor Lyn
No, you keep forgetting a very important item there.
When we are children, we are taken to church and put in Sunday school. There, all the little impressionable children are taught that God loves all, God nor his son have hatred nor are they mean spirited and seek to abuse or harm another living being. Humans preach the hatred and vileness. Then they swear that God told them to hate some living beings but not others.
You keep attributing human emotions, thoughts and feelings to a being who is supposed to be so much better than humans.
I refuse to have a human or a deity in my life who hates and wishes harm. That right there is one of the main reasons that I've turned my back on religion.
I'm here to help those who need help and understanding and kindness and love. I'll stand against your god every time.
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James Riggle-Johnson
So much there to unpack. Yes, when you go into some businesses, they have a sign saying, “We have the right to refuse service to anyone” but what happens when they only refuse black people? Are they just crybaby Karens, or do you only hold this view for certain types of people?
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
It appears they already accepted the contract but subsequently reneged on it. Breach of contract is a very different matter from declining to enter into a contract for whatever reason. Other potential customer should be very vary of entering into contracts with businesses that fail to honour them.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Is it the right of a business to decide they only want xtian employees and fire those that aren’t? Is it okay for a business to decide that anyone that falls into the category of non-white has to find another job? Think before you spew.
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Thomas P. Davis
From my understanding these people do not coincidently go to these stores. They are steered there by the groups just to create an issue and get on the news. That happened a few years ago in a town next to me with a very liberal college. When it was all done, the courts sided with the bakery. The other issue I have always had is when the government told smokers, that they could not smoke in restaurants. It should be left to the owner. If he loses business (which he wasn't) permitting smoking, he then could stop it. If he lost even more business by stopping it, he could change his mind again
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Matthew W Meister
Thomas, while I know that there are "testers" out there checking on compliance with fair housing laws, discrimination laws, etc., it seems awfully judgemental to assume that "these people" do not coincidentally go to these stores. The simple use of the phrase "these people" is judgemental in and of itself. To assume you know the motives and that all of "them" are the same is beyond judgemental.
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Thomas P. Davis
Matthew, you are correct, I should have worded that differently. I did not mean to imply that do it purposefully. This wasn't speaking of government inspections either. This was speaking of that particular couple.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
Mr. Davis, have you heard of second hand smoke? Not to mention the greater damage it does to the smoker? It always amazes me when the roommate who smokes outside as per my rule swears over 50 plus years of smoking hasn
t hurt him them from all the way across the house I can hear him hacking and coughing that sounds like he must be hacking up a lung in there. The truth is sitting next to a table of that would be enough to take away anyones appetit, if they were smoking the sthench would be stinking up the place for nonsmokers who can smell that on people and places. That is harmful and offensive on a general level. Anyone of any race or lifestyle would smell it just as strongly.-
Thomas P. Davis
Lori-Ann, yes, I have heard of secondhand smoke. I am not sure what you are referring to. If it was to my issue with the government controlling our lives. (Like when they shut down the churches during covid) By not allowing smoking in restaurants. It should be the owner decision and not the governments. If you don't like the secondhand smoke and the yellow walls bother you, then don't go there. I quit going to Denny's years ago for that reason. If the owner loses enough business and is unable to pay his bills, then he has a choice to make. It is similar to years ago when the government was trying to make food producers label their products as not organic and GMO so the organic people could sell more product. Well, I say now what i said then. If the non gmo and organic produces who were pushing this bill, all they needed to do was label theirs as non gmo and inorganic.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
That can be a gray issue depending. To me smoking is a health issue. If someone wants to take years off their own life and smoke at home, that is on them. Just don't expect me to visit, not at your house anyway. So if restaurants are deemed public, they should have safety standards not allowing smoking. But thanks for the reply...
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Theresa C. Marquess
Setting aside the fact that they are a same-sex couple, why would anyone go where they are not wanted?
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Robert James Ruhnke
It’s a public business which serves the public good. Maybe if they don’t want to serve ALL of the public, then don’t open a business. If they had a private Christian club, that’s another story. Bigotry is more of a sin than being gay ever will.
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Pastor Lyn
They wouldn't choose to go where they are not wanted. But when you allow businesses to refuse service out of hatred, then eventually they have no place else to go and are in serious danger of abuse. That is so wrong on so many levels.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
Who cares that they are a same sex couple. Worry more for those misguided enough to judge the couple and ask yourself why would you have business to people like that?
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Reverend Paula Copp
I have no clue as to why anyone would want to go where they’re not wanted, but a lot of people do…
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Theresa C. Marquess
There are times when I think it is about the challenge. I subscribe to live and let live. When I was associated with a business our doors were open to all. It's not good business to do otherwise.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Why should anybody have to provide personal , and irrelevant, information and inquire if they are ‘acceptable? Should they have to tell them that they wear clothes made from different types of fiber? Or that they have a tattoo? Or that they work on Sunday? Xtians pick and choose their silliness.
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Reverend Paula Copp
Comment removed by user.
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Joseph P Aleks
For myself, if someone tells me they don't want me somewhere, that obligates me to be there and to expel them. But I don't try to force my beliefs on people like LGBT believers do so I don't experience such a problem
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Theresa C. Marquess
Joseph, Your statement tells me why we will never achieve world peace, not in my lifetime, yours, or anyone else's, for that matter. Why go where you're not wanted unless it is to antagonize a situation? A better attitude would be to ask, "Who cares?" and go about your business. It would be far better to do that than to have to take blood pressure medicine! Life is too short to look for stress to add to everyone's life. Once, when I was young and foolish, I may have agreed with you, but not any longer. However, I wish you well and hope that you enjoy life's challenges.
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Jon E Dare
This is abhorrent behavior. Weddings weren’t even actually in the Bible. You laid down with someone and you were married. Incest was also rampant back then. I despise “religious” people who pick and choose which scriptures apply to them.
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Justin Framstad
Weddings aren't in the Bible? So, at what event did Jesus turn water into wine?
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Lori-Ann Neeb
The Bible is inaccurate anyways in English it was written by men. Many believe the wine turning wedding was just the first acknowledged so-called miracle. It is amazing they did let it in when it supports the theory that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalen and that was his wedding.
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Reverend Paula Copp
Why are so many christians following the Old Testament? That’s for the Jewish culture… why aren’t christians listening to the words of their savior?
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Lori-Ann Neeb
As all organized religion is manmade it can always go either way depending on whether or not the follower has also found their spiritual heart and listens to it. Some just read the man made words and never question the dogma found there. They have been raised and trained to believe they are not allowed. I always believe in reading or studying anything with an open and inquisitive mind.
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Hank Stanco
Do you mean look to the New Testament where Jesus states that marriage is between one man and one woman?
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Donald G Magel
Today Many christians follow the anti-christ; Trump. He is their chosen one doing "god's work" on earth!
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Kenneth Kling
I just knew that it wouldn’t take long to bring up a political leader. Is this all of the brain power left? This side that side this guy this woman blah blah blah. It’s a new day, can we please move on?
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Lori-Ann Neeb
The hard part about that is that conservative and fundamentals has weaponized the christian title and used it to split the country In half.they ram it down everybody's throats that it should be their way or nothing. We should be able to separate church and school but most anti progress just happen to be in the conservative also.
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Kenneth Kling
I just knew that it wouldn’t take long to bring up a political leader. Is this all of the brain power left? This side that side this guy this woman blah blah blah. It’s a new day, can we please move on?
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Dane
Justifying actions like this by saying you're following your faith is the reason many people these days have taken to saying, "There is no hate like Christian love."
Matthew 12:31 tells us that all sins will be forgiven if you but believe. In other words, even if you consider homosexuality to be a sin, God himself would still be willing to give this couple a pass.
Claiming to follow God's word, when it's clear that you haven't even read it, is incredibly arrogant.
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Mark Gilgen
The bible also says to repent your sins, not glorify them.
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
The bible is one of many “religious” texts. It sounds like you think the one YOU read/believe is the “one and only.” Quite prideful and arrogant of you.
You are one of the many reasons so many are fleeing the so-called “religions.” Pity…
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Hank Stanco
Well Ms Wilcox, it doesn’t matter how many religious texts there are. The not one that matters is the one in which their beliefs are included.
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Rev. MichaelRS
What is the point of being any particular religious faith if you don't believe it is the truest?
Also it doesn't matter what people in this comment section believe. This is an issue of what the owners of the restaurant believe. And it has long been a standing belief in mainstream Christianity for centuries that homosexuality is sin.
The point there being that it's not like the owners made up the/a religion yesterday just to get out of catering a same-sex wedding.
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Donald G Magel
The church has maintained itself by protecting its child molesters for centuries. Punishing gay people but only those outside the church.
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Robert James Ruhnke
The Bible has also been a mass produced political tool. It’s original meaning was man shall not lie with child. It was an anti pedo clause, not anti gay. The Catholic Church edited it for political reasons, not spiritual.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
The bible is also full of Bronze Age nonsense. Do you still believe in Santa? All religious individuals are delusional, it’s just a matter of degree. I expect that the great majority of xtians find the idea of Mohammed ascending to heaven to be ridiculous. And yet they believe Jesus did it without one. Why is one more silly than the other? (Hint: Equally delusional)
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Keith Graham Ainsworth
Some major Bronze age cultures were OK with homosexuality, the Greeks for example. Achilles, one of their greatest heroes and a great general was reportedly homosexual and highly respected. It says a lost about our current civilisation when cultures from 6000 yeas ago were more enlightened
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Rev. MichaelRS
Yes and from a judeo-christian perspective those same Bronze Age people were wrong in their worship of idols and polytheistic gods and goddesses.
Gods & goddesses that for some reason had all the bad characteristics of humans, not the least of which was their sexual kinks and depravity.
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Joseph P Aleks
What they had in those cultures was more like what would be called pedophilia today. And it's unclear whether it was considered to be honorable or shameful
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Matthew W Meister
I read your response and I am confused. Who should repent their sins in this case? The couple or the business?
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Daniel Gray
its legal according to the SCOTUS, sorry about your luck.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
SCOTUS is the final word on stupidity, huh? If SCOTUS suddenly decided it was okay to fire xtians for just being a xtian I bet you would be a bit peeved, huh?
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Keith Graham Ainsworth
Many "christians" refuse to hire non christians or those from a different cult
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Hank Stanco
It doesn’t matter. SCOTUS decisions is the supreme law of the land. Period.
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Daniel Gray
No Zerp, that would be you
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Gary Stephen Lowden
Actually, it's a breach of contract case. Prior cases did not involve a signed contract. They either have to complete the contract or pay damages. You can't invalidate contracts just because you don't like the people you entered into the contract with.
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Karen Main
True. It’s a contract and they didn’t get all their facts before getting into the contract. While they do still hold the right to pull out, they do still need to pay damages and be ready to accept backlash and bad press for this decision. Let this be a lesson to them to make sure they have all the facts before entering a contract of any kind.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
I agree but would tweak the wording a bit. Whether or not a person believes something is sin or not is on them and no one else. God loves everyone the same and He could not care less what lifestyle the couple are. He wouldn't have to give them "a pass" since they do nothing wrong as a couple to begin with. Some judgmental people should worry more about their own spiritual states than what other people do or do not do.
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Hank Stanco
Matthew 12:31 speaks to the sin of blasphemy and blasphemy only. To include “all sins” as you have takes it completely out of context.
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1) they had a contract and are obliged legally to uphold it or face all the backlash of violating contract 2) The type of service they are contracted for does not require creativity, expression or any thing else. Two men in business suits walk into a restaurant and order dinner, they get served and pay bill and leave. The wait staff do not get to refuse service to one pair of businessmen vs another dressed the same because the first set talks about their romance and love for each other at the table. There is no disruption to business in either case. 3) If they do refuse service before contract, there is no requirement that their community do business with them that they can be boycotted and driven out of business and face social hostility in reviews and such. That is freedom of speech. As long as no one tries to attack them or vandalize their business, social backlash is what they have to face. Social ostracization is price you pay for being anti-gay in a accepting society or being gay in a anti-gay christian area. You can't force people to like you or be your friend.