Do churches have a constitutional right to care for the homeless?
That’s what one church in Burien, Washington, is arguing, and they’re suing the city over a policy which requires they obtain a temporary use permit before allowing homeless encampments on church property.
Is it a violation of the church’s freedom of religion for the city to force them to obtain a permit?
The Right to Do Right?
Pastor Mark Miller of Oasis Home Church says that it’s his right as a Christian leader to tend to the needy - and that Burien, Washington’s repeated attempts to force him to obtain a permit to host a homeless encampment on church property are a direct violation of his First Amendment rights.
The trouble started last September, when Burien enacted Ordinance 827, which made overnight camping on public property a misdemeanor, in a move that many say essentially criminalizing homelessness.
With winter approaching, Oasis Home Church set up an encampment on their property in response, sheltering roughly 100 individuals from the elements throughout the winter. Most of the church’s temporary residents moved there after the city swept a popular encampment in early December.
The city demanded that the church apply for a temporary use permit, but the church refused every request, arguing that requiring a permit is an infringement of their right to religious freedom. They also say that the city is violating the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act (RLUIPA), which protects houses of worship from discriminatory zoning laws, as well as state law, which prevents cities from restricting churches from hosting outdoor encampments for fewer than six months per year.
After repeated refusals by the church, the city began issuing them a $250 fine every day they weren't in compliance, the sum of which now totals some $100,000 and counting in debt. Now the church is suing the city, asking a federal court to weigh in.
Religious Discrimination or Not?
“People left England and came here so that a government couldn’t tell them what kind of religious things they could or couldn’t do,” said James Lobsenz, one of the church’s attorneys. “Burien can pass any law that it wants,” argues Lobsenz. “But it’s municipal law. It doesn’t trump the Constitution, and it doesn’t trump RLUIPA.”
The church's argument is that they have a Constitional right to host a homeless encampment on church property because helping the homeless is an intrinsic part of their Christian faith. But the city disagrees, arguing that even churches need the proper permits to host 100+ people overnight every single night.
The city’s now facing a slew of legal battles related to their restrictive new anti-homelessness laws, including from Oasis Home Church, King County Sheriffs, who refuse to enforce the new camping ordinance, as well as three homeless people who argue the new law amounts to “cruel punishment” simply for being homeless.
Meanwhile, Oasis Home Church announced their intention of opening another encampment soon.
For now, the feud between the church and the city of Burien is in the hands of the courts, but what do you make of the situation? Do churches have a constitutional right to provide for the homeless? And does that include hosting a homeless encampment on church property?
109 comments
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Eamonn Byrne Bem RE
It is a fundamental right for the homeless to be assisted by the Church. Beautiful buildings (Churches) lay idle and empty whilst humans sleep on streets and park benches. The house of God belongs to all!
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Henry Gordon. Weed
Amen,the house of God is suppose to belong to all and as holy minister's it should be our moral obligation to help the homeless,the lost,the person in need and anyone who comes to us for help.Isn't it our place, if not then who's.
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Keith Graham Ainsworth
Not only is it a right to help the less fortunate, but it is also a responsibility. It's what Christ would have done. Modern day "Christians" that would argue this have drifted so far from his message that they have become the polar opposite of true Christianity. I no longer call myself Christian although I respect the message and the messenger, I became Buddhist decades ago because it is more congruent with my personal philosophy
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Daniel Gray
No sorry its not a fundamental right and never was, if you think it is then show me where in the Constitution it says that.
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Rev. Michelle Love
Daniel, It may not be a fundamental right to receive assistance from the church but it is the church's fundamental right as a non-profit organization to assist anyone they please.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
Isn't that the First Amendment?
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Rev Ned
OK. Show me in The Constitution where it says that it’s OK to criminalize aiding folks in need.
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Daniel Gray
Grants Pass v. Johnson US Supreme Court where SCOTUS said that localities CAN ban homeless encampments and can do it for health reasons. Just like what is going on in Bryan Ohio right now State and local laws clearly state that you can only have so many people on a property. So like it or not the law clearly allows for this to be done.
Now tell me Ned, if someone gets hurt or attacked in this camp, who exactly are the homeless going to go after...thats right they are going to sue the church that allowed them to camp there. Its happened before in many states and it will happen again if we continue to allow this.
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Eamonn Byrne Bem RE
Daniel, not everyone is restricted by your constitution
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Daniel Gray
Sorry but you are since its the supreme law of the land.
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Thomas Jarrett
Doesn't everybody have the right to life, liberty, and happiness? Matter of fact isn't that what our whole country is built off of? If feeding and housing the homeless is your pursuit of happiness and preserving life itself is your goal, it is your Liberty to do what you will with YOUR property. I don't care what any Court says... Feeding and sheltering those who are in need will always be a cherished act of love.
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Daniel Gray
Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and Give unto God what is God's
In short you STILL must obey the laws of man.
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Michael Hunt
Unless you don't live in America, of course.
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Daniel Gray
and if you dont live in American then you are not allowed to tell us what is right or wrong if we are following our laws now are you?
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El Gringo
Think of the good Samaritan. He was nor religiously acceptable, but Jesus was the one to point out that it was the Samaritan who acted in a Christian manner as opposed to the religiously righteous who walked past and did nothing.
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Eugene T Rice
I would argue that if a church applies for such a permit, they are admiting that the city has the power to regulate their ministerial efforts on church property. My secondary concern is that the church would then find itself on a slippery sloap. If the government can regulate one form of ministry, what other forms fall within their perview. Would the church be violating noise ordinances should they hold midnight services on Christmas?
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Daniel Gray
Sorry to bust your bubble but they already do regulate it in some ways. For instance in a lot of states Muslums cannot do a call to prayer first thing in the morning. They cannot demd that farms that have been there for over 100 years must now remove all swine because they dont like it. In Every state in the union you have a building and property capacity law stating how many people can be inside a building or on a property at any given time. In Ohio (and there was a whole blog about this here) a church in Bryan Ohio was stopped from allowing homeless from coming into a church and sleeping there every night without a permit. If there was a fire or some kind of disaster it would be the church who would be hit with the fines and charges if people were seriously harmed or died. And it makes no difference who this pastor thinks they are, they do NOT have the right to put the church nor the congregation into financial trouble without a vote of the congregation.To do that is called a dictatorship, not a pastor or a pastors job to lead their congregation. I can introduce you to a methodist pastor who though he can do whatever he wanted just because he was the pastor, and then found out that he couldnt when his congregation removed him because of him spending the churchs money without permission. So yea even the Government can indeed place some restrictions on Churches.
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Lionheart
I’d like to see Joel Osteen, and others of his ilk, open their mansions to the homeless. It won’t happen of course. The same goes for those extremely wealthy Hollywood types who condone our open borders policies instead of helping our own homeless, and vets, first.
🦁❤️
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Rev. Michelle Love
Joel Olsteen didn't even open his church to his congregation during Hurricane Katrina; I doubt he will do it now.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Michelle Love,
Joel Osteen does not represent all Christians. For instance, I have he is not my cup-of-tea sort of preacher, and I am a Christian.
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Reverend Paula Copp
Thank you!
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James Mounts
None of the freedoms guaranteed by our constitution is limitless. For example, we are free to speak, but may not incite to riot, we are free to own firearms but may not hunt without a license, we are free to report news, but may not libel, etc. Every right comes with responsibility. When we established a government to protect our rights, we also gave it certain responsibility. In a nutshell, government meets its responsibility to ensure the safety of those in homeless shelters, by setting standards. They enforce those standards by way of inspecting and permitting. (You apply to open a shelter, the government informs you of the standards, you make sure your shelter meets those standards, you notify the government you are ready, they inspect and if they agree you are ready. they issue the permit). That is the system we established. We agreed to it for our mutual protection. We all abide by it, even churches. In order to comply with the dictates of our religion, we must first "render to Caesar that which is Caesar's."
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Patricia Ann Gross
James. I agree, totally. If the city refused the permit, they should have specified a reason. If the church wasn't willing to meet the conditions of the reason, or it wasn't "reasonable" then they have a chance to debate or even litigate. The article doesn't state whether the church refused to apply for the permit or the city refused to issue one. That is an important point in this entire argument.
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Ronaldo
The article clearly stated "the city demanded that the church apply for a temporary use permit, but the church refused every request...". Jesus pretty much said we should follow secular law whenever possible. The article doesn't say whether or not there was even a fee for applying for the permit, so it might have been a simple matter of filling out a form.
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Daniel Todd Kamm
I'm not a fan of many institutions, and many religious ones rank towards the bottom of my list anyway. And homelessness is neither a left nor right issue... it's everyone's issue. Municipalities all over are passing all kinds of silly regulations related to homelessness, most of them ill-informed and akin to neighborhood beautification programs, except for the fines: any solution to homelessness and it's many, many underlying factors just eludes them. Bureaucracies tend to be short sighted and single minded and they seldom find solutions due their many constraints. Religious organizations on the other hand are generally freer to do things, like assist the homeless in ways the government cannot. It doesn't make the overall situation better, but it can alleviate immediate needs, pain and suffering. It also seems to me that the churches, in providing these places for people to come to are providing sanctuary to those people who come to them. And that should be sacred and off-limits regardless of whatever laws are being floated about and /or contested. I side with the churches on this one. Reb tk
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
So, it's harsh enough to be homeless, but they need to kick them in the teeth by criminalizing their condition?
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Rev. BH
I always thought church grounds were sanctuaries unbeholden to government regulations. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Patricia Ann Gross
You are wrong. Church kitchens require health inspections if they serve over a certain number of people. Church buildings and renovations require building permits. Church staff are subject to W2, Social Security, and Medicare withholding (with the exception of the pastor[s])
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
used to be but no longer. asking for sanctuary to avoid arrest or prosecution is not a thing and the police can come in and drag you out, no matter what your or the priest etc says or claims
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Rev. Michelle Love
But when did it become a crime to be homeless?
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Michael Hunt
When the rich bureaucrats decided they didn't like poor people and refused to help them.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
posted 9/6 based on what I'm reading, this blog is a recitation of an issue from Sept 2023. According to news sources, the prior homeless camp was closed as an agreement between Oasis church and the Burien Community Support Coalition (this is back in Feb. 2023) which was when the issue of permitting arose.
so while the issue in Burien, WA is still a problem (there is a homeless encampment in and around the city hall parking lot) it no longer involves the Oasis church mentioned in the blog, is a confusion of funding not being used, NIMBY and general local government inaction.
a story in facebook (for whatever that is worth) is that the city of Burien, in Feb. 2024 offered to expedite the process and waive the application fees for the permit, making it just a rubberstamp procedure but the pastor of the church refused, claimed religious violation of rights and refused to apply for the free permit (which was deemed necessary so that "...the City could be assured that proper health and safety standards were being met."
so NOT a story,
No, kkris chns are NOT being persecuted and in fact the pastor of the Oasis church simply refused the free and expedited offer of the permit AND the encampment was already dissolved (back in Feb, 2024)
stories like this are always best researched first before commenting
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
And yet again the Alt-Right, hate-mongers rear their ugly heads here. They hate other people SO much they scream about how the poor and homeless should just die and they deserve no assistance what so ever.
It is a 1st Amendment right for a Church to host the homeless as they see fit. It is AGAINST the 1st Amendment for any government entity to make any laws restricting the practice of, or enforcing the practice of, any religion. As long as the practice does not involve actually doing harm to others, then they can practice as they see fit.
Unfortunately, to the Alt-Right aka MAGA crowd, helping the poor and homeless, except when using them as a political bargaining chip or as a photo-op to make campaign commercials out of it, is da** near viewed as an imprisonable offense. He**, in Florida, it IS an imprisonable offense.
The fact is, there are over 15 MILLION vacant houses and apartments in the United States. However, there are about 650,000 homeless men, women, and children in the United States. That's roughly 28 vacant houses, and apartments, for every single man, woman and child that are homeless.
However, GREED is why these people can't find homes. Landlords deliberately jacking up prices until they price out the people that are in those apartments just so they can jack the prices up more to try to get wealthier renters. Multi-National real estate corporations deliberately buying up entire cities worth of apartment buildings, just to jack the rent up to beyond what MOST people in the cities can afford.
But not just apartment buildings. They've begun deliberately buying single family homes and jacking up the sale price beyond what most people can afford, and renting them at insanely inflated rental prices, or air BnB-ing them, or simply holding onto them, doing neither. Letting the buildings fall into decay and ruin and using them as "tax write-offs".
Then they hire lobby groups to harass Churches and other organizations who try to get shelters built to help the homeless, and to bribe politicians into making horrific laws to brutally punish people for the "crime" of being poor.
And the ENTIRE time, the MAGA crowd cheer and scream their approval for this BS.
This IS, 100%, discrimination, but it's also a much deeper problem. A true disregard, even hatred, for their fellow humans. All for the sake of greed. Cruelty isn't a side-effect of this issue, it's a feature.
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Daniel Gray
and yet here is the alt-left who unless you do it exactly how they say or do exactly how they want it done no matter if the law says otherwise, then they come along and verbally attack you. Bridget it sounds like you would be far more comfortable living in a socialist country then here, but then again Canada and Norway and Finland are all socialist countries and they also have a major problem with homeless people and they are doing it exactly how you want them to...so you need to explain yourself.
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Pastor George Day
Daniel Gray,
You are so right! Well said!
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
Simply put, I have no need to explain myself at all.
There are no "Alt left" who say "Do it our way or you're evil" Nor am I attacking anyone. Though I am quite unsurprised how me pointing out a hard, proven, fact makes you feel "attacked". Let me guess, you ARE a landlord that jacks up your renter's fees by 100% or more every so often just to squeeze more out of them, and then throwing them into the street when they can't pay?
Now, the USA, in general, is a capitalist nation. However, runaway capitalism leads to a massive homeless problem. And actually no, those nations you mention are Capitalistic Socialist nations. They have very strong programs to help people, but these programs have been cut over time by ultra-conservative business leaders who get into office to follow "America's Example". And, btw, Finland? Norway? Bzzt, wrong. Finland has decreased its homeless population by over 30%, And Norway's homeless population has dropped significantly as well thanks to programs to house the homeless.
Unlike the United States, where greed, bigotry, and sheer spite against fellow humans, has caused the problem of homelessness to stagnate and get worse rather than be addressed. I love being in the USA and I have absolutely no plans on leaving. However, it's the Alt-Right, and the ultra-rich NIBYS in office (N.I.M.B.Y - not in my back yard), that have cause the issue to get worse in many areas.
Whenever a lawmaker tries to fix the problems by adding more low-income housing, as well as social programs that help them find jobs, treat mental health issues, addiction issues, and so forth, they are shouted down by the Alt-Right, absolutely denigrated on Alt-Right social platforms, harassed, threatened - sometimes with some individuals even attempting to make good on those threats of violence, and so forth. Their programs are stopped cold.
When a church, or other group, attempts to HELP the homeless, they are often arrested, harassed, sued by rich , denigrated on Alt-Right groups, and even threatened. Why? For trying to help the poor and "undeserving" as individuals call them.
I know a lot more than you think about this. I've HOUSED homeless families in my home. I've HELPED them get back to their feet, find jobs, and get their lives back together. I've been "in the trenches" to try to help people.
Tell me, when is the last time you've been willing to help someone who's homeless, desperate, and begging for help? Without spitting on them or denigrating them that is?
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Minister M.D. Murphy
Every organization should have a complete clearance to aid and assist those who are less fortunate.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
Sadly, and you can even see it in the comments here, there are many individuals who call themselves "Good Christians" and yet.. spew nothing but hatred and cruelty toward those who desperately need help the most.
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Leaf
Its funny how the christians will pick and choose things Jesus said to fit their narrative. Jesus said to give to Cesar what is Cesar's. Well, Cesear wants a permit.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
these blogs are a wonderful example of how people will make an argument without understanding the issues involved, just kneej erk reactions.
I've pointed out at least 3 times that this story was old and it was over, in Feb 2024.
the pastor simply did not want to SIGN the application for the permit for the homeless encampment. apparently he felt he didn't need to follow the rules of the city, building dept, health department, etc.
the encampment was broken up in FEB 2024 because the church involved and a private social organization no longer were housing the homeless
so the blog here is old news, had nothing to do with government overreach nothing to do with restrictions on or against a church or a pastor.
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Thomas Christopher Medina
Haven't you all figured out that in today's society it's all about the money? If you adhere, we need the money. If you don't adhere, we need the money. I think the best solution to this dilemma is that any good Christian people that are concerned about the homeless people should invite some to stay in their homes. Particularly those that are members of this particular congregation. That's real Christianity. Are you a believer, or are you a follower?
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ServantOfJudgement
The left complains if a church doesn't help the homeless then punishes them when they do.
Satanists don't worship Satan.
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Reverend Paula Copp
You are mistaken, SOJ. IT’S THE RADICAL RIGHT that’s infringing on the freedoms of religion, women’s rights, minority rights etc. Check out reality for a minute.
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ServantOfJudgement
We're talking Washington State Paula. Nearly all leadership from the state level down to Burien city council and mayor are Democrats. Like almost everybody including the representatives they send to Washington DC. The most radically right politician from that state is 1200 miles left of where I'm standing and I'm considered a hard boiled Bible thumping lunatic. You go ahead and fact check me, you'll see.
It is the left that's telling the church they can't do this, not maga droids.
Women today are so equal to men they're about to be eligible for the draft and people cheer when a dude in a dress punches their face of in a boxing match. The left is demanding men be permitted to take places preserved for only women. The left has eroded the definition of a woman to the point a supreme Court Justice who is a woman doesn't know what a woman it. An educated woman on the supreme Court does not know what a woman is. Educated.
There's literally nothing I can do that minorites can't do. There are things however that I can't do that minorities can do.
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James Riggle-Johnson
SOJ, what’s with all the vitriol concerning women being equal to men by allowing a man to punch a woman in the face? Seriously, that again? She was a woman. Also, the democratic mayor of this town is furious with his party’s solution to the homelessness problem. Homelessness is not a left or right problem, and it takes both sides to help these people. Afterall, they are human beings. Why does this have to become a right vs left discussion?
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Reverend Paula Copp
Wow.
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Rev. BH
A giant balloon full of verbiage, is popped by the needle of one word. Genius!
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Daniel Gray
so stating the truth is garbage to you? good to know and it shows how we should deal with your posts from here on out.
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Rev. BH
Did you notice I said verbiage, nor garbage? Please read slower and more carefully. And this "we" you mention seems to be only you. Peace.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
Save your breath brother BH. these critters know nothing but what their religion/church tells them to think/know.
To be honest I really believe that there are at least 3 members here that are all one in the same...let's call it a trinity of trolls
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Daniel Gray
I stand by what I said
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Pastor George Day
Daniel Gray,,
Well done! Don't let anyone bully you!
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Keith Graham Ainsworth
Democrats aren't the left, you in the US might consider them to be left wing but they're no
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Ann
They're all corrupt.
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Daniel Gray
Check out reality for yourself Paula and stop listening to the fantasy of the left.
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Reverend Paula Copp
Mr. Gray, I suggest you wean yourself from Maga propaganda and lies.
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Daniel Gray
Paula I suggest you start doing homework to make sure that the myths you try to pass here are actually valid.
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Rev. BH
SOJ, What's the Satanists part of your post got to do with the topic? (and how do you "serve judgement" - sounds kind of scary)
Paula, Right as usual.
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ServantOfJudgement
Servant of judgement is the meaning of my surname. I was born this way, don't judge me.
The satanist reference is to demonstrate the contradictory nature of anti god movements, actions and thoughts.
The left screams women's rights while demanding men can complete against women. It sure ain't the right doing that sister. When we see these contradictions we see the deceiving nature of Satan and his victims.
The even say it. Satanists don't worship Satan. Right in your face yet still invisible.
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Rev. BH
Thanks for explaining the Servant of Judgement handle. My apologies for making unwarranted assumptions. As for the rest of your above statements, Satanists, women's rights, competition among the sexes - uh, interesting but Isn't the topic here: "Religious Discrimination" to Prevent Church From Caring for Homeless?
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Reverend Paula Copp
Thank you!
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John P Maher
EVERYONE NEEDS A " PERMIT " FOR EVERYTHING """ WHY NOT YOU """ ??? I AM SURE GOD CAN AFFORD IT OR GET THE ANGELS BACK TO WORK,STOP CRYING in YER HOLY WATER FO CHRISTS SAKE !
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Reverend Paula Copp
This is an aside, all ministers, but one I hope you’ll take into account. I was very nearly scammed out of $2,000 by someone pretending to ask for marriage services. They sent me a fraudulent “cashier’s check” and I actually tried to put it in the bank… when they told me the check was a fraud I was absolutely flabbergasted! Just remember. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is!
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Patricia Ann Gross
It happened to me too, twice. I assumed it was by the same person, only they wanted to funnel other services through me (like catering, etc.). That was where I drew the line. When the second request came in with the same verbiage, I responded with my fee, and the payment forms I would accept. I also stated I would not combine payments with any other vendor. I never heard from them again.
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Michael Sciulli
We all god children must help homeless this from minstermike
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Lionheart
Do I take it that you think there is a god of some type out there, Sir Michael?
🦁❤️
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Rev. BH
Before I overstay my welcome here, might I suggest a little consideration from you, Lionheart (whom I normally agree with). minstermike's point is less about the existence of god, than helping the homeless. Can't we can be kind to the less fortunate regardless of our belief or disbelief in a god?
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart,
Aren't you getting bored of asking the same question all the time?
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Colleen McAllister
Jesus tells us that we must follow the local laws and the church should do so. They are not being told to let the homeless deal but simply get the legal permits to do so.
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Rebecca L Tice
Well, good afternoon.... Homeless using the church.... city requires a permit...
I do recall a story about Jesus and a tax he was required to pay a temple tax. Remember that?
It was covered in Matthew 17. Jesus thought it was stupid that He had to pay to use His Father's house. Anyway... a coin was produced from the mouth of a fish... and the tax was paid.
So what if the town wants a permit.... get the permit. If the church needs assistance, they can ask God for it... after all, it's God's house.
John 3:16... people.... John 3:16 for ALL the people.
Thanks for reading... Becky
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
Dear moderators, please tell me why my comment was removed, completely? The issue of this blog is a year old, the issue of the permit began in Sept of 2023 and by Feb 2024 the church was no longer allowing the encampment, despite being offered an expedited and fees waived permit
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Nicholas J Page
Then who will look after the homeless the government won't .I live in England and have seen it first hand The Salvation Army fed them.I volunteered to help feed the homeless for 2 years.
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James Riggle-Johnson
I think the church is doing the right thing in helping the homeless. Also, we might not know why they haven’t applied for the permit. Maybe it costs too much money that they’d rather spend on the people they’re helping. Even the Country Sheriff doesn’t want to enforce the cities law regarding this matter. That says a lot.
I think the church is doing exactly what Christ would want them to do. They are taking care of their fellow man. They aren’t doing it for rewards or recognition, they are simply doing what is right. I’m not sure they have grounds, but I’ve heard a lot worse arguments for religious freedom that have won. This particular case they are actually doing something good, and not trying to not do something for a select group but to help. Bravo!
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Rev. Michelle Love
Burien, as well as many other cities in Washington that lie on the I-5 corridor, now looks like a war zone because people can no longer afford to live in the state. I commend the church for wanting to do something about a problem that Governor Inslee seems to want to ignore. I see these fines as a money grab and nothing more.
Washington state has a history of trying to act as if their laws supersedes federal laws. Just ask the Nisqually Indian Tribe in Dupont, WA. Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient Billy Frank, Jr. fought for years trying to uphold the Treaty of Medicine Creek that permitted his people to fish and hunt on their traditional lands. His activism led to the Boldt Decision that confirmed their rights to be able to hunt and fish off of the reservation.
I have actively worked to help the homeless population in the state of Washington and even submitted a proposal to Gov. Inslee that would help homeless veterans be placed into affordable lodging in preexisting structures that have been sitting vacant for years. However, his lack of response at even receiving such a proposal proves that the homeless problem in his state is not an issue he prioritizes.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
michelle, there was no money grab. if you read my post or, did some background you would have discovered that the church was offered the permit for the encampment FOR FREE!!! and they city offered to EXPEDITE the paperwork as well. the church was offered the permit at no cost to the church other than to sign the application, which THE PASTOR OF THE CHURCH REFUSED TO DO.
so while I'm sure you may have some points regarding how WA state serves it homeless, you point on the blog here was off by a mile. as far as Burien goes, they have been offered grant money to help with the homeless issue and have not taken advantage of it. so it appears that government down to the lowest level in WA state is useless
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Rev. Michelle Love
JJ,
The money grab I was referring to were the fines that were being imposed by the state.
I am not sure if you've ever lived in WA like I did, but if any money was granted to any city to help with the homeless population in that state, then there would not be so many homeless encampments set up under almost every overpass and public park on the I-5 corridor.
The only thing I can agree with you in your statement is that the government down to the lowest level in WA state is absolutely useless. I have literally contacted councilmen, mayors, congressmen, sentators, and even the governor himself to no avail. I thank God that there is finally an election for a new governor this year with a candidate whose platform is to provide affordable housing to rectify this situation.
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David M Hines
Aren’t they doing what Jesus commanded?
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Michael David Butler
Yes, they are doing what Jesus commanded. Unfortunately, government thinks they are God.
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Randal Steven Muniz
I personally lived in a church property homeless camp for a year in Nashville TN. We had no problems. Other encampments that we're individual have been closed down by the City. Yet still, in Nashville TN, it's illegal to be homeless. YOU can be fined upto $500 and serve jail time!!!! It's ashame that these law's are enforced by and brought up and sponsored by so called " Christians."
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Cheryl Anne Wooten
Totally agree. There will always be poor (homeless, hungry, less fortunate) among you. So it is the churches duty to care for them.
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Theresa C. Marquess
Before opening their arms to the homeless with an encampment on church grounds, legal advice should be sought to determine whether permits would be needed, whether additional insurance would be necessary, what any legal ramifications would be encountered. They would be undertaking the safety and well being of the people that they plan to take in. We don't live in an age where we could just open our properties to homeless people without taking on a total responsibility for them.
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Thomas P. Davis
I remember reading a book back in the 80"s. " the American Dream what has happen to it." The author stated that this country was set up on two principles. Protect our borders from foreign invasion and separation of church and state. Today, it stated that 80% of all of our tax dollars go to people that don't work for it. Davey Crockett almost lost his job when a widow of a civil war wanted the government to pay for her to live. He said the government was not set up for that. The author of the book said this is the churches responsibility and not the government.
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Patricia Ann Gross
My question about all of this, is would the city have issued the permit to the church or denied it? There is a lot not included in this story, for example, are adequate facilities available for the people in the encampent to go to the bathroom, or are they having to go on the ground or try to use them in other businesses surrounding the encampment? Are they also feeding them (even church kitchens have to have a health inspection if the serve more than xx people)? Is there any effort by the church to reach out to the inhabitants to make sure they have access to social services and medical treatments? What about security? Are child predators (which make up a disproportiately large percentage of homeless as most shelters will not accept anyone on the sex offender registry) amongst families with children? Is there any Intake or assignment of plot for each person camping there? There are definitely more questions than answers presented here, and nobody really knows whether or not it started as a simple $100 permit that blew up to $100K on principle by the church. . I have worked in non-profits that support the homeless, and it is not as simple as a church/state issue. Fire codes apply to churches. Health department licenses apply to church kitchens. Renovations to church properties, and building new buildings require building permits. These are all for the safety of the community, including the community that this church is trying to help. If they applied for the permit and it was rejected, that is one thing, but refusing to obtain the permit is another. It was not clear which was the case. A church is private property, but when it serves the "public" (in whatever form that is), it still has to abide by rules associated with public safety. It is likely they are violating more than just a "permit" requirement.
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Amber Fry
I would say they do have the right and even an obligation, generally speaking, but they still should follow legal and ethical treatment while doing so. If they go about it in ways that break laws or discriminate then they are not exactly doing it for the reasons Jesus laid out.
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Tom Herman
This case clearly is one where the interpretation of existing law needs confirmed by the courts. It is appropriate for a church to want to care for the needy but not at the expense of the public trust. From the article it appears that prior to the town enacting the ordinance this church is in compliance with existing laws. Such laws are generally for public safety and health. I would be concerned if the new ordinance was designed simply for aesthetic or elitist reasons.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
the church in question was offered the permits AT NO COST, and the town offered expedited the permit process as well. the pastor refused, didn't feel he had to sign for any permit, free or not. on top of which, this entire issue (with the church and the homeless encampment) was over in FEBRUARY 2024. there is still a homeless issue in that town but it has nothing to do with the oasis church
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Ari Joseph Bertine
Jesus didn't say "only help people if it's free". That church needs to suck it up and do what they need to do legally in order to serve their community. Trying to squirm out of the permit requirements is prompted by greed, not religious freedom. It's not fooling anyone.
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Julie Armstrong
If church wants to help homeless they should. I understand it is out of control. Just build tiny communities and make did illegal They will go away to nails or California
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James A
Other than that bit of misinformation about the pilgrims, the attorney is spot on. Nice to see Christians acting in a Christian manner and tending to the needs of the poor.
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Jeremy Todd Roche
It's not necessarily discrimination, it's prohibition against the homeless. "They'll" keep fining people/businesses until "they" figure out a way to tax homelessness. Just a thought.
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Bernadette Miner
The church is in its right to fund and help the homeless. They should not have any legal issues against them as they are in the right setting of what the religion has a lawful religious obligation to help the homeless. Jesus did and he and GOD are our saviors who died for us, helped cure the sick, and love us all no matter who we are.
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Clay Inthepottershands
God Bless The Truth!!!
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Anthony Craig Liner Sr I
Remember Jesus (Isa) was homeless no where to lie your head . Shame on them ! Homeless people need love too
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Pastor George Day
Anthony Craig Liner Sr I,
You are mistaken. Jesus was far from homeless. He belonged to a family that had property and a business. Certainly, his brothers who, together with his sisters, did not believe in him until his resurrection, would have continued their father's business.
He was an itinerant preacher, together with the Twelve. But they all had homes and families
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Quinn R Amaro
Jesus told us to live your neighbor. OUR neighbor is everyone. But a political organization created by human's cannot trump what Jesus our spiritual Leader told us. It is clear to me that a mere human wants to tax a church that is assisting the homeless on church property (WHICH NOT PUBLIC PROPERTY) because... Why? Because these mere human being's seem to think they are more powerful than God who created life? It because these mere human being's want to pocket a little if that money "paid" for by a church? How can we love other's even humans only want to make a buck out of it?
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Walter J. Holbrook
What in the "flip-flip" is this. The Bible teaches to care for the homeless and oppressed, the sick and shut-in, widows and orphans. This is why so many are having a lot of hatred for government over reach.
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Richard T Berry
The town is run by a bunch of Heathens.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
can you explain please, how that is? I'm curious
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Cheryl Anne Wooten
Amen. When we've done it for (cared for, fed, provided shelter, etc.) the least of them, we've done it into God.
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Raychelle Denise Irby
Absolutely Not, the bible needs to be in schools along with Prayer. Yes The Church is supposed to care for the down trodden and the homeless. Even if it means opening their doors to cloth and house the homeless. Jesus said' the poor you shall have with you always. No evolution isn't a religion and shouldn't be classified as such. The big bang theory and darwinism totally contradicts the word of God. God is not confused and neither should his creation be. We didn't come from Apes or millions of particles from the sky. God created man in his own image and in his likeness. That's why God came to earth through a virgin to take on humanity so that man would be without excuse. Hebrews 4:14-15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. God loves the sinner but he hates the sin, for whom he died and rose again. God thought enough about you and I to send his only begotten Son to die on a cross for your and my sins. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have Everlasting Life. That sacrifice alone should be enough to make us all fall down on our knees and scream thank Jesus for forgiving and covering my sin which stands for Self Individual needs. God bless you all Be prayerful and be vigilant because Jesus is soon to return to erect judgement and set the captives Free.
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Pastor George Day
Raychelle Denise Irby,
Very well said!
Preach it, sister!
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Pastor George Day
No book has loomed larger in American history than the Bible. It has animated governmental ideas and shaped national identity. It has sparked reform, political union and division, and creative inspiration for novelists, artists, and songwriters nationwide.
How did the Good Book shape the church in the United States? Why don't you grab a chance to dive deeper into the story of the Bible’s influence on American worship and personal devotion? This will bring you better clarity regarding the ways Americans have valued, experienced, and defended the B-I-B-L-E.
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Henry Buehler
I wanted to post about historical sanctuary offered by church. I posted link that was not approved. Link referenced English church where I wanted to reference French church In New Orleans that was French territory.
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Henry Buehler
Driving to Church went by Police station with dozens of homeless camped out in front. There were no homeless camped out at Church. There is Law and there is persecution, persecution need be put down by Law. Do you have Faith or malice?
The Rock Church has sheltered homeless people in RVs on its property since 2019, calling it their religious duty to help those in need. But on at least three separate occasions, in 2021, 2022 and again in 2023, town officials blocked their efforts, saying they violated zoning laws. The church, in response, said this violated its 1st Amendment rights to religious freedom, as well as the Religious Land Use And Institutionalized Persons Act.
In January, the church sued the town.
"The Holy Bible specifically and repeatedly directs faithful Christians like the Church's members to care for the poor and needy out of compassion and mercy for those who are experiencing significant misfortune and hardship," the church wrote in court filings.
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Henry Buehler
Sanctuary, a consecrated place giving protection to those fleeing from justice or persecution; or, the privilege of taking refuge in such consecrated place. The right of sanctuary was based on the inviolability attaching to things sacred, and not, as some have held, on the example set by the Hebrew cities of refuge. It was recognized under the Code of Theodosius (399) and later by that of Justinian. Papal sanction was first given to it by Leo I, about THE SANCTUARY OF ST. MENAB, EGYPT 460, though Ivory Carving, Museum, Milan the first Council of Orange had dealt with the matter in 441. The earliest mention of sanctuary in England was in a code of laws promulgated by King Ethelbert in 600. A bishop may serve as judge in a legal case only if both parties agree to it. Bishops are given restricted rights to appeal on behalf of convicted criminals. Only in humanitarian cases, when there is sufficient evidence and the time for appeal is not run out may they assist in making an appeal. If the clergy refuse to surrender someone who has fled to church to escape his debts, they shall be responsible for paying his debts. Bishops must preside over cases regarding religion. Provincial governors hear cases of secular law. Rights sought by the church through lawyers or representatives rather than through clergy shall be effected. Privileges already held by the church shall remain in effect. Among other legislation dealing with freeing prisoners of war, Honorius encourages Christian clergy to advocate for returned prisoners. If two parties have chosen to have their cases heard before bishops, the verdict is unappealable. The governors will be in charge of execution of the verdict. Only orthodox Christians may be appointed as defender of the city, with the bishop and clergy joining the distinguished citizens, rentiers, and curials in making the appointment. On Sundays, governors should see to the care of prisoners, providing food and a bath, and personally examining their condition. 20 pounds of gold is the fine for breaking this law. Bishops should encourage governors not to neglect this law. For persons seeking sanctuary in a church, the zone of protection shall extend fifty paces from the church. Priests are allowed to enter prisons and visit prisoners. They are also allowed to advocate before judges on behalf of prisoners if justice has not been done.
If someone loses a legal case against a clergyman, he will be fined in accordance with his means. Also, if a guilty man is walking with a priest or bishops, he may not be detained. When criminals take refuge in a church, none may offer force or violence to apprehend them therein. The porticoes, halls, houses, and other adjacent buildings and rooms are also designated as sanctuary, so that the criminal will not have to defile the altar by fleeing to it. But if a criminal is not willing to lay down his weapons upon entering the sanctuary, armed men will drag him out. Anyone who has tried to drag a criminal out of a sanctuary will be condemned to capital punishment.
If there is a dispute between clergy but the litigants agree themselves, a bishop may serve as judge. This applies for lay persons also. Both litigants must agree to this. No one may join the clergy to avoid his obligated status, including: farmers, tenant farmers, slaves, municipal senators, receivers of taxes, seviers of guilds, or public slaves. Those from upper classes may either find substitutes or return to their previous positions, those from lower classes must return to their previous position. Clergy may not engage in a trade or conduct business. If they engage in trade, they are not subject to clerical exemptions.
Churches taken by heretics from the orthodox are to be returned to the Catholic Church. If clergy should be created by heretics, both the cleric and the person who appointed him are to be fined. Because not all should be punished in like manner, Arians, Macedonians, and Apollinarians, who have incorrect views about Christ, will not be permitted to have any church buildings, while Novatians and Sabbatians may not construct new churches. Eunomians, Valentinians, Montanists, Priscillians, Phrygians, Marcionites, Borborians, Messalians, Euchitans or Enthusiasts, Donatists, Audians, Hydroparastatans, Tascodrogitans, Photinians, Paulianists, Marcellians, and Manichaeans are forbidden to hold public assemblies and prayer. Manichaeans are to be expelled from the cities. Such people are forbidden from all governmental services except that they may be cohortalines in the provinces and military. Previous laws against heretics are upheld. This includes laws which limited their ability to leave or receive an inheritance or to serve in the government. They may not convert or proselytize others, including their own slaves. Any governor who fails to exile someone who has broken these laws will himself suffer the due punishment.
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Tammy Varney
Tammy's house of coffee ministries working with the homeless
I may be mistaken, but I think Jesus said to care for the poor…that being said, would it not follow that christians have the duty of care to the homeless? Would that not mean that on church property, it is the priority of the church to care for people in the way that benefits the most people? The city is wrong and needs to pay for its indifference!
Well said, Paula. Most city councils start their sessions with a Christian prayer, then proceed to enact un-Christ-like laws. This is definitely one of them. Not only do I support this church in their endeavor, but it's refreshing to see a church actually following Christ's teaching.
Paula, while I agree to you on one level, I have one question. How is allowing an encampment on church property without obtaining proper permits caring for the homeless? Are they attending to medical needs? Are they feeding them? These all require licensing and permits. If they are handing out spoiled or expired food to someone who is hungry, that is exploitation, enabling, or even worse. While their ambitions may be in the right place, their execution could backfire if one of the homeless persons is assaulted, gets sick, or is otherwise harmed by their compassionate response. Non-profits lose their licenses and go out of business every day because of a lawsuit caused by them trying to do "the right thing" that went incredibly wrong. As I posted also on this as well, if they are denied the permit, that is one thing and they can claim discrimination, as long as the public safety standards (fire codes, etc.) are followed. If they are trying to get around the permit fee, that is an entirely different thing. Yes they have the right to follow Christ's teaching, but they are also accountable to Caesar (in the form of a permit).
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