Is surrogacy a “deplorable” practice which violates the “dignity of the woman and the child”?
Pope Francis thinks so, and is calling for a global ban on surrogacy.
His remarks have been met with mixed reactions – cheers from some religious groups; anger and disappointment from same-sex couples and people facing fertility struggles around the world.
What makes surrogacy “deplorable” in the pope’s eyes, and should it seriously be banned globally?
A “Deplorable” Practice?
Roughly 20,000 children around the world are born through surrogate mothers each year. The practice, in which surrogates volunteer to carry and give birth to a child for families who cannot conceive, has long been criticized by the Vatican.
Francis reiterated the Church's position with sharp words in a recent address.
“I deem deplorable the practice of so-called surrogate motherhood, which represents a grave violation of the dignity of the woman and the child, based on the exploitation of situations of the mother’s material needs,” the pope said.
“A child is always a gift and never the basis of a commercial contract,” he continued. “Consequently, I express my hope for an effort by the international community to prohibit this practice universally.”
This is hardly the first time Pope Francis has taken on surrogacy. He has previously dismissed surrogacy as “uterus for rent,” language sometimes used by surrogacy opponents to deride the practice.
The Internet Reacts
Francis's comments received immediate reactions from critics.
Many people pushed back on the pope’s belief that surrogacy is tantamount to renting a womb.
Others pointed out that one of the most famous babies ever born was arguably conceived via surrogacy.
While the story of Jesus's conception is a matter of theological debate, it's not the only biblical example of surrogacy, experts say. The story of Hagar is a much clearer example, they argue.
Surrogacy At Home and Abroad
Although not a major culture war issue in the United States (where it is only banned or severely restricted in a handful of states), across Europe, surrogacy is increasingly controversial.
In Italy, where surrogacy is already illegal, Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni is seeking strict fines and even jail time for Italian parents who seek surrogacy abroad.
Other major European countries – including France, Germany, and Spain – have also outlawed surrogacy. Public opinion on the issue is split roughly down the middle.
In general, surrogacy is more controversial when money is changing hands between parties, rather than altruistic surrogacy, where a friend or family member carries a child for a couple.
Even in some countries where commercial surrogacies are banned – Canada, New Zealand, and Australia, for example – altruistic surgeries are legal.
In America, however, public opinion is more relaxed.
A YouGov poll from 2015 found that some 71% of Americans approve of surrogacy, and 57% of them approve of women charging money for carrying a child. And in general, commercial surrogacies are more common in the United States than in many parts of the world.
What do you think? Is Pope Francis right that surrogacy – particularly for pay – should be banned? Or is it a valuable option for same-sex couples and couples with fertility issues?
76 comments
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Janis Carol Sommers
The Churches of the World have ideologies that rarely respect a matriarchal perspective on anything. It is historical truth that women have given their babies to others who were barren in many situations, some in sisterhood,some for financial reasons, and others out of no acess to abortion so they go to term and another woman tales their child. A contracted Surrogacy between adults and forced delivery because the option of abortion is unavailable and the mother puts her child up for adoption are equals just bearing different names with exception being one is a respectable contract and the other leaves a woman in eternal shame. How dare this man decide anything for women.
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Russel A. Kester
Janis, this man, as you say, has the right to make his opinions known because over a billion people look to him for moral guidance and ethics for their lives.
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Colleen McAllister
The Pope is not the head of Christians, merely one section. He does nor speak for me nor does he have the right to. Close friends of mine would not have their beautiful twin sons if not for suragacy. K was unable to carry a child full term so a friend offered to do so for her. They were blessed with twins. How can anyone find that disrespectful? If God were against such things then He would stop it from happening.
The Pope needs to step back and realize that he is not God, nor even His spokesman. The Pope is simply a man
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Brien
I apreciate your position, but the word pope carries the following definition: pope, (Latin papa, from Greek pappas, “father”), the title, since about the 9th century, of the bishop of Rome, the head of the Roman Catholic Church Also this: Definitions of pope: The head of the Roman Catholic Church. Synonyms: Bishop of Rome, Catholic Pope, Holy Father, Roman Catholic Pope, Vicar of Christ, pontiff. It seems clear to me that the "pope" is indeed the head honcho of the Catholic religion. I believe christians do fall in that category. If the "pope" does not speak for your faith, then are you certain about your faith? I am of the position that if you are of a faith, then you must bear responsibility for its' actions, or lack of. That is one of the reasons why I decided a long time ago to separate myself from organized beliefs that indoctrinate and brainwash. Peace✌
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Colleen McAllister
Brien he is nothing to me since I am a Christian, but not a Catholic. They are not the same thing.
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Russel A. Kester
Colleen, the Pope is not just a Catholic. He's a well educated and very sincere Christian who has dedicated his entire life to serve God and the Catholic church. I think hearing him out and considering his informed and loving thoughts is beneficial to me and everyone. We might disagree but to dismiss him out of hand seems brash.
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Colleen McAllister
Russell I did not dismiss the Pope out of hand. I simply consider him an intelligent, and yes, faithful man. No one speaks for me. Or woman.
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Stephanie A Willey
If men had a uterus there would be huge multinational corporations dealing globally in "uterus for hire", of course for profit. If you don't have a uterus you have no business and should have no right telling anyone with a uterus what they can or cannot do with it.
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ServantOfJudgement
Haven't you been reading the papers? Men do have a uterus nowadays.
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Mary Catherine Kanz
And if men were the ones having the babies the word “abortion” would not even be in the volcabulary. There would be no such word. If men didn’t want the baby, there would be no problem at all doing as he chose.
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Alexander Arends
I would leave comments here only for Roman Catholics. Whatever the Pope says does not affect me in any way, shape or form.
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Brien
Ahhh yes the pope. The grand poobah of the cristian fairy tale belief. Mis-information, hate, and bigotry never looked better in a white robe. Another organisation also wore white robes but I just KKKan't remember who...oh well, it wil kkkome to me eventually. His back handed comments don't bother me, the fact that there are people that obey him does.
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ServantOfJudgement
Brein,
Funny. I love love love a play on words.
The Pope speaks for Catholics and is the medium between them and their maker. This contradicts the bible.
I speak for me and only I am between God and myself. You, me, the Pope and Mother Mary are equal in the biblical view, God's view. I know that's trivial to you but you get my meaning. The Pope doesn't matter, he's just some dude we don't know that's breaking biblical laws.
The Pope(pick one)holds no allegiance to mankind. Google his throne room, you'll find no representation of Jesus the Christ, rather the opposite.
Catholics may be upset with me over this but I'm just calling it as I read it. The Pope and his position isn't biblical, hence the prodestsnts. Logical analysis of the bible easily shows this(bible+logic 2 u is crazy I know but u get my point).
Remember, the Pope laundered golden teeth from victims of the WW2 Jewish concentration camps. This should alarm any thinking person moreover any thinking Christian.
I'm anti abortion in the sense that if a healthy baby can be born the baby should be born. It is one of our own which is beautifully miraculous. That includes surrogacy. Let a sorrowful couple find joy from a giving soul. Let's not throttle the future of generations. Let man shine in his wonderous capabilities and give life where life could not otherwise be.
Let life grow. It's a good thing.
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Brien
I take no position on what is a woman's right to decide. The part I do have trouble with is picking and choosing bits and pieces of a belief to accept, and disregarding the rest because it is too ugly to look at. On this my position is clear, if you accept a belief, then you must accept the good and the bad for acceptance of it gives the belief power to continue. It's evil, and it's good survive. In this case, the evil and treachery Christianity far out way the good. Either the whole belief is accepted or none of it is.
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Merlin
Mary, it was said to be a surrogate (Luke 1:34-35)unless the Pope knows something different (Roman Officer?).
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
Why does he think the contents of anyone’s uterus is any of his business? It’s not. Nor do politicians have any business sticking their heads in a woman’s uterus.
Without IVF, which he also demeans, we would not be grandparents to a beautiful grandson.
I am against the human trafficking of babies, aka adoption. If you’re paying for a baby or child, you are trafficking in human beings.
I am firmly pro-choice so that a pregnant woman can say “no” or “yes” to abortion. I do not want any woman to be forced to have an abortion. Nor forced to carry to term.
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Rev Mark D
Well Elizabeth, as a famous habitual child sex offender (ironically) once said, men spend 9 months getting out of a uterus and the rest of their lives trying to get back in.
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Daniel Gray
And just think if all the women took your view, you would not have that precious grandson.
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Colleen McAllister
Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox I'm not sure where you get your information from but adoption is not selling babies. I worked at an agency for over a decade and the money involved barely covers the costs of medical expenses and legal matters. There may be an occasional adoption that involves money changing hands, but I assure you, most do not.
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Joy
Wow. I was adopted. I can assure you I was not trafficked. You have a very twisted perspective on adoption.
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Johnny Mac
This is the most Satanist Pope in History of this world. GOD chose Mary to be hs serogate and Our Savior, JESUS CHRIST was born. And now this clown has called Mary a sinner. He needs to be removed and a GODLY MAN chosen in his place! Amen.
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Rev Mark D
You know what man I hadn't thought of it that way but you're absolutely right, God did elect to use a surrogate! Guess that's not good enough for the pope though. South Park Pope.
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Alun Lloyd Palmer
Ironic given his religion and the story of the birth of Jesus, and unkind to those infertile for whatever reason.
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Robert Hauck, MD, FAAP
Why, O why, does the Pope even address this issue? Globally there are so many immensely important issues that need help from The Church. Once again the Catholic Church has squandered it reputation. If The Church was led by women this never would have surfaced. I've always appreciated that childless couples have this option to become birth parents. And how could he have ignored the supposed surrogacy of Mary?
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Rev Mark D
Pope would do better with something else. Surrogating for a couple to gestate a wanted baby, a planned for baby... Whereas if you look up Bangladesh prostitute village, you will see there's plenty of room for the pope to try to do some good work and something that's consistent with Jesus, who I know is a competitor of the Pope but even so...
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Rev Mark D
Pope ought to try it before he knocks it... how many kids does he have, how many kids has he tried to have and failed?
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
And how many kids of priests are there? Probably way more than he thinks!
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Rev. Carol M Anaski-Figurski
Interesting topic. Those are terrible words to describe motherhood from a catholic perspective. In all of Christianity, Children are God's greatest gift. Blest Be. The wonder of science has made it possible for more people to be parents & more people to carry the life of a child. Blest Be. Surrogacy is a miracle of life, hope & happiness for all those involved. It is right to ask to be compensated for the 9 months to carry a child, as well as coverage for good medical Blest Be. Modern science is also working on womb transplantation for organ donors. What an opportunity that will be Blest Be. Keep america & the globe growing the life of a children. I believe that Children are our future. There shall be no genocide for everyone should have a generation to live. Rebirth after death Blest Be. Amen
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Rev. Elizabeth
That is a sad statement. He accepts same sex marriage but not allowing another woman, who is a willing participant, to carry a child for a woman who cannot for whatever that woman’s reason is? Not everyone wants to adopt. There are children who need to be adopted but what you are put through and the cost. I would try surrogacy too. I was blessed to have two but I had to stay in bed. They told me after my second it doesn’t look good for anymore births. They couldn’t guarantee I would not miscarry. Had I had money, I would have looked for a surrogacy. I wanted 5 children. I barely had the two I have. I’m blessed.
My prayers that God intervenes where He feels is good for the people who are praying to have their children. The Pope is not God, thank goodness for that. He is just the highest rank in the Catholic religion/belief. My religion doesn’t have a Pope. They do have a Bishop. Although I recognize there is needed in all aspects of the world, a leader of their belief system and family. But whom I rely on for yay’s or nay’s is not those leaders. I go to God through Jesus. When I talk to the Holy Spirit it is through Jesus. When I go to Jesus, I recognize him as my Savior. This is what I do. This is what everyone should do. My prayers for the men and woman who want a surrogate, talk to God about it. He will let you know. Remember to always talk to God and the Holy Spirit in Jesus name. Many talk to Jesus directly. End by saying in your name you pray. You are covered. Your prayers have been heard. I will put my prayers with yours for the blessing of God on your wishes. 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
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Keith D
Yah, pretty hypocritical, isn't it!
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Nicholas J Page
The pope always pokes his nose where its not wanted.Why cant we accept surrogacy in places.For instance my 3rd wife wanted a baby with me but i had the snip before we met.And it was too late age wise for me to have a reversal.We never considered a baby as we didnt earn enough money my education was not good as i worked as a security officer with teh MOD Til i had to take medical retirement so i live off benefits and 2 private pensions .So there it is in a nutshell
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Keith D
The Pope can believe and advocate for anything he deems suited, EXCEPT... access to law to enforce religion or any of his impulses.
This statement of course flies in the face of long-existing practice, where popes and other such do have levers into law. But past record of crimes doesn't justify continuing the course unabated. End it.
People who look at the truths of geopolitics know that the connect between the Vatican and certain other city-states and a certain ilk of 'nobility' and of the 'commercial/financial/industrial sector' are sordid, occulted because they are crimes either under law, morality or religion. That is the bad occultism: crimes in secret, participating in the foulest of mammon.
So the Pope prattles and potentates jump. Time for that to end, whether you agree that surrogacy is 'deplorable' or not, and whether you consider the Pope 'God's Avatar' or not.
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Ainsley Schultz
God is love and peace; that being said, follow him first and judge lest be judged good people:🙏✌️♥️😎🇺🇸
Thanks y’all for listening and Godspeed!
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Lionheart
Sadly, it looks as though you haven’t read that biblical book, because if you had you will find the deity listed in that book is an infanticidal, genocidal, pestilential maniac, that people like to refer to as someone that is love and peace, which is clearly not the case. Thank you for your comment though.🤗
🦁❤️
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Rev. Michael Gerraghty II
About time people started speaking the truth!
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ServantOfJudgement
Most everyone is on the same page I see. The atheist agrees with the Christian. That a good thing. I also agree, let human life grow where it will. The Pope speaks for Catholics, let them square up with his absurdity on this.
To be clear though, Mary was no surrogate by any measure at all. Mary was chosen to be the one to carry the light, no other was preferred or desired by God to do such a thing. God did not require a surrogate to carry Jesus, he had the willingness of Mary.
Original joke by your's truly: In my youth I ran a side business where I'd help a couple out that had difficulty getting pregnant. For a nominal fee I'd go in and take care of things with the lady. My services came with a guarantee of course. If it didn't take the first time, every time after was free.
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
Men need to keep their thoughts/words/deeds off of uterus's that don't belong to them.
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ServantOfJudgement
Hmmph, you just have me a fun idea. Since a baby resides in a womb, the womb is it's home. I'll bet a clever father and his attorney could successfully argue Squatter's Right for his baby to stay in it's legal home until it decides it wants to leave. It would be illegal to evict a baby from its home.
Weird
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Rev. Elizabeth
ServantOfJudgement - I really like what you said here. The womb is the baby’s home for at least 9 months in the year. So it isn’t really squatting? Maybe you mean if the baby is implanted in another womb? That would be a squatter. Hahahahaha. Then again, that womb accepted the baby to live there, would it still be a squatter?
I just had to do this to you. I love to joke around and this was an opportunity do have a giggle. Not giving you a hard time at all. I liked your post.
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ServantOfJudgement
Elizabeth,
Lol, true!!
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He Who Breathes
Just remember that Catholicism is the closest religion to Christianity - and the Poop actually follows Lucifer.
They are wolves in Christian's clothing, and have always been that way. Just look at their history...
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Kevin Oconnell
I think the Catholic Church needs to clean up their act before they try to control others,
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Jessica Wade
I was an altruistic surrogate for my best friend. I can’t imagine having a baby for a stranger but I applaud those women who willing make that sacrifice. There is no amount of pay that could ever repay someone for doing such a selfless act but with that being said I can see the potential for exploitation of women who are in financial need. I believe that is why during the mental health exam prior to IVF approval, they ask about finances. They prefer the surrogate be financially stable and not receiving any government assistance.
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rebadams7
Mary was not a surrogate. She did not hand a child that had none of her genetic material. She carried a baby and was the mother of that child. Joseph is the OG stand up man. He took them Both into his heart and made a family.
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Overseer Dr Jennifer Bandy Vaughn/ Phyotheropist
Blessings, Very Profound and Rich. Every word was much needed and Greatly appreciated in the Kingdom of Heaven.
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Tom Herman
It seems clear the article speaks to the Pope questioning the practice in the concept of the exploitation of the surrogate Mother. There are good couple's, men and women who want and will provide a wonderful life for a child. For whatever medical reasons the woman cannot carry the child in their own womb. They should not be barred from being a mother. I do understand about adoption but this is not the same as the child being of the man and woman's own sperm and ovaries thus having the parents DNA. Under careful conditions where it is assured the surrogate is not being taken advantage of or exploited, I see nothing wrong. The surrogate is providing a blessing and not just a service. There is merit to those that argue that Jesus's mother Mary was the ultimate surrogate. According to most teachings she was not even given the choice. Is not that exploitation in the highest form?
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Scott Singley
A lot of good people use surrogacy to get pregnant and they take care of their kids better than people that have them naturally.
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Lady Mutt Cat
Let them adopt. Too many homeless children for this nonsense to continue.
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Russel A. Kester
I don't understand why the Pope believes that surrogacy affects the dignity of either the surrogate or the child. That being said, I think that the church, that is the Roman Catholic Church, might believe that these type of situations where a couple cannot have a child is God's will. If so, then it makes sense that the church would oppose surrogacy as that is tatamount to opposing God's will. I've also heard the argument that many opposed surrogacy because many eggs are fertilized at the same time and those not used because of a successful pregnancy are then discarded. This too would affect the churches believe on topics similar to this such as abortion. Because the church believes that the person begins at conception. I would be interested to know if there are any other reasons the church might have an opposing surrogacy.
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Theresa C. Marquess
The desire in a woman for motherhood is very strong. There are so many babies that are already here that need homes. Talk about adoption first..........
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Rev. Rory
The Pope is the leader of the RCC. He can saw whatever he wishes and his flock follow his statements... or they don't. The church is also against birth control, but I can't think of many Catholic women that have a dozen children, so I would say they are not listening, and many are sitting in church every week with their 2.5 kids.
I do not pretend to know if surrogacy is right or wrong. I do know that there are millions of poor children in the world that need a home. There are thousands and thousands of kids in the US living in foster homes. I guess people only want infants that look like them and share their DNA.
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Rev Ned
I’m surprised. If the surrogacy brought a new baby to a devout Catholic family, it would be good for business.
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Overseer Dr Jennifer Bandy Vaughn/ Phyotheropist
Blessings Everyone! We all must remember that, We Are in the End Times. The Biblical Prophecy is only being fulfilled with God's Word, Amen? Be not dismayed as all that we will see, In The Coming Of Christ, Amen? Step back from what the World is doing and Saying at this point, And ask yourselves..What is God Doing?
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Lady Mutt Cat
One of the rare times that I agree with the Pope. With all of the homeless children, surrogacy should be a crime.
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Kat Harley
There is nothing wrong with having a "womb for rent". If a woman is willing to be a surrogate, then it doesn't violate anyone's dignity.
The Pope doesn't know what it's like to be a woman. The thought that “a child is always a gift and never the basis of a commercial contract” comes from a man, who for an ungodly reason, doesn't have a wife or his own children. He doesn't know how much it costs to raise a child. When I receive gifts, I don't have to pay for them.
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Lady Mutt Cat
It's a public policy issue.
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Jerry M Choat
Does surrogate motherhood honor marriage and keep the marriage bed undefiled? Simply put, no.
Traditional surrogacy requires the insemination of the woman by donor sperm.
The Bible’s view may be found at Leviticus 18:20, which says: “You must not give your emission as semen to the wife of your associate to become unclean by it.”
There is no Biblical basis for making a distinction between insemination by intercourse and insemination artificially by donor implantation.
Therefore, in either case, fornication or adultery is committed when insemination is accomplished by a male other than the woman’s legal husband.
How does God view the marital arrangement? The answer is found in his Word, the Bible, at {Hebrews 13:4: “Let marriage be honorable among all.”
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Evone Payton Banks (Minister non denominational)
Well said. Especially if the honor comes with the decision to create life
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Samanthae Donnelly
Ah yes, thank you pope for mansplaining that it is a "violation of the dignity of the woman." I am positive he never asked any of the women who serve as surrogates lol.
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Evone Payton Banks (Minister non denominational)
The fact that men are making laws on women says a lot about how far we have come and how far we have gone back in time. There are people who need surrogates and in doing so... You send the message that gifts are only for child bearing women. That creates depression in those who want nothing more than to be able to bare a child for their loved one. As a woman who has bore children and lost children; I can say my heart will go out to those if they do not stop this. What about the woman born with a genetic disorder who cannot bare children and financially cannot go through the IVF trials but meets the man willing to donate? What message are we sending to couples? And furthermore, there are laws about being able to claim the child by the carrier and some have had their babies stolen by women who volunteered to carry. We must come together if God be at the head.. there is not scripture that says stop a woman from being giving the gift of life. Blessings
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Lady Mutt Cat
In a time when there are so many homeless children, surrogacy and any other IVF is absolutely an abomination. Nobody's genes are that special. As with the controversy over purebred dogs and cats versus homeless little ones in shelters, Adopt, Don't Shop.
He’s only a man, wearing a large white acorn cup cap, and some people actually believe he has a direct conduit to his god. 🤷🏼
Such is the power of religious indoctrination in all faiths, not just his. When will religious people start waking up?
🦁❤️
Yeah but he's also an extremely rich businessman, as are all of the bishops and above, because professional religion is can be incredibly lucrative, just look at that clown down in Houston who pays himself a minimal 65 million a year, not including what he pays his wife out of his Church's take...
Lion they will never wake up, it's in their DNA, there are predators and there are prey.
I knew I'd see you comment!! Thank you. My comment was just going to be another, "FFS, here we go again." LOL
Lionheart some of us "religious" people are awake. Many of us disagree with such blanket statements from so-called religious leaders. So please don't lump us all together. Not sure why you bear such animosity for religion but I hope that some day you find answers that will bring peace to your soul.
But are religious people really awake, Lady Colleen, when they believe everything they read in a book?
I’m totally OK with people who need religion to get through life, if that’s what they need, but I do have animosity towards indoctrinating young children’s minds with the same kind of unproven illogical woo woo type rubbish in an attempt to convince them it’s true. Look at how that affects children in religions, such as Islam. That has also been the case historically with Christianity.
I do want you to know that I do have peace, and love, in my heart, if that is what you’re referring to. Thank you for your comment. 🤗
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Yes, Lionheart, I do believe that many believers are awake to the status of the world. And I do not blindly believe what is written without exploring further for the truth. I have questioned preachers when I disagree. I've had meaningful discussions that sometimes change my mind, and sometimes changes theirs. I have said things from the pulpit that others disagree with. I often speak my truth and not the "party line" of any particular denomination or congregation. We do not indoctrinate children but present them one option. It is up to them to accept or reject. Many of our youth have drifted away, only to come back on their own.
I'm happy that you feel that you have peace. I would be interested in how strong that peace is when a tragedy comes. Good discussion.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply, Lady Colleen. I have already experienced tragedy in my life, and perhaps the biggest one was in losing a grandson at the age of 19 with him ending his own life. I’m at peace with the decision he made.
I’m also at peace watching my own mother taking her last breath. I held her hand until the end.
Thank you for your respectful comments. 🤗
🦁❤️
You object, but if you voice your objections you get silenced and you would accept that. I always hear Christians voice objections, to everyone else except their own. Why is that?
Lion,
The large white acorn cup cap IS his conduit to god. Heaven is a long way away, he needs a good aerial to pick up the signals. Lets face it, it's either the acorn cup cap or a satellite dish, but the latter would look plain silly.
Wonder if he gets HBO?
Lion they are never going to wake up, it's in their DNA... There are predators, and there are prey, and then there are the rest of us in the middle who (quicker or slower) learn from experience...and learn from experience to think for themselves. Until you can learn from experience and think for yourself, you are prey...
Some, like myself for instance, do wake up, but unfortunately many are so deeply indoctrinated they are under the impression they are awake and insist we are we are the ones asleep, so they will talk to a wall, or a floor, or a ceiling, all under the impression they have some magical person in the sky listening to them, and have actually convinced themselves that they get answers from this magical sky listener. 🤭
It’s actually very sad, because I’ve been there, and I now feel very sorry for them. In reality, it’s a form of mental illness.
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Lionheart I got caught up into the whole Christian movement things too. I can't believe how blind I was. It changed my behavior. I was so nasty and judgmental to people who didn't think the same way I did. It's just how we were taught.
I am not like that any longer and have no faith at all in the church - any of them. Now that I know the "Bible" has been changed over time to fit the needs of the men in charge of the church, I never want anything to do with it again. The Bible is no more divine than a Time magazine is. Because if it was "divine", why would man hide, burn, and destroy all other parts of it? The truth won't stay hidden. Those Gnostic works and other works have been found. I wonder how many more the "men in charge" tried to destroy? Now kindness is my goal.
Do I believe in God? I believe there is something larger than all of us, but it's not some God in the sky with a Son sent to redeem us all. That is the narrative that the "men in charge" have been pushing on us all for the past 2 millennia and then some. I believe Jesus was a real person who had an amazing message of love and kindness, and perhaps also a message that we all can access the same energy Source as he could. But that is another story for another time.
If thats what they want to believe then thats them. I see no difference between this and someone praying to a tree or Thor or Buddah or calling themselves a Gnostic Christian seemingly not knowing or understanding that the term Gnostic means personal spiritual knowledge above the teachings, traditions, and authority of religious institutions. Or in short placing yourself above the teachings and religion you claim to be following meaning either you are a part of a religion or you are gnostic, you cant be both.
So in that case I agree with you lion. either you are or you are not a part of a religion, there is no inbetween