Last year, the Supreme Court legalized same-sex marriage in all 50 states. It was a huge victory for the LGBT community, and represented the culmination of a decades-long campaign for marriage equality. While the fight for full equality is far from over, some attention has now shifted to the rights of transgender people. 'Transgender' is an umbrella term which refers to people whose gender identity and/or gender expression is different from that which is traditionally associated with their assigned sex at birth. The most reliable studies put the number of transgender adults in America at roughly 700,000, or 0.3 percent of the population. However, for numerous reasons, it has proven extremely difficult to accurately estimate the total number of transgender people living in the U.S. Recent legislation involving transgender rights has revealed a prevailing stigma surrounding this segment of the population.
Stigma
While gay rights have expanded rapidly in recent years, there still exists a stigma around being transgender. People tend to fear what they don't properly understand, and gender identity issues are not well understood. Gender is a tremendously complex notion to give just one example, Facebook has 58 separate gender options that users can choose from. It's no wonder that some people remain confused. In any case, the result is that misconceptions run rampant, and many transgender people decide not to identify themselves as such for fear of being discriminated against.
Discrimination
For the most part, our laws do a good job of protecting people from discrimination in the United States; it's illegal to discriminate against someone based on their sex, religion, race, or sexual orientation. For those who feel their rights have been violated in spite of these protections, there is always the option to fight back using the legal system. However, despite the fact that under federal law it is illegal to refuse housing, employment, or public accommodations to someone based on their sex, not every state actively enforces these protections, and transgender people tend to suffer disproportionate levels of discrimination. Indeed, a 2011 study conducted by the National Center for Transgender Equality found that 26% of transgender people lost a job due to bias, 50% were harassed on the job, and 20% were evicted or denied housing. On top of that, 78% of transgender students reported being harassed or assaulted at some point. It's therefore quite clear that this group is not receiving equal protection under the law. While bigotry is hard to correct, a recent movement has sought to improve everyday life for transgender people. **** ****
Restroom Access
Over the past couple years, transgender access to public restrooms has become an increasingly prominent issue. The most recent example comes from Charlotte, N.C., where the City Council passed an ordinance allowing transgender people to use the restroom or locker room of the gender they identify with, as opposed to the gender they were born with. Proponents argued that this constitutes a small shift in policy, but would make transgender people much more comfortable when using public facilities. However, not everyone sees it this way, and the ordinance quickly became a hot-button issue.
Backlash
Given the contentious political climate we live in, it may be unsurprising that there was immediate backlash in North Carolina. Social conservatives decried the City Council's decision and demanded action. The state legislature responded by passing House Bill 2, preventing cities from allowing transgender individuals to use public bathrooms for the gender they identify with and thus nullifying the Charlotte ordinance.
One thing is clear: many people remain uncomfortable with the idea of someone being able to use whichever bathroom/changing room they prefer (including former Red Sox pitcher Curt Schilling, who was fired from his position as an ESPN analyst after making inflammatory comments about the issue on his Facebook page). However, the primary opposition appears not to be with the spirit of the policy, but instead with the risk of it being exploited. Opponents are concerned that under such a law, someone with sinister motives could claim to be transgender and enter a restroom of the opposite sex. Objectively, it's not difficult to imagine a scenario in which a man pretends to be transgender in order to gain access to a women's locker room, or vice versa. It's no surprise, then, that parents are some of the most vocal critics of expanded transgender restroom access. The bottom line, according to opponents, is that the policy puts children in danger and that the risks outweigh the benefits.
Going Forward
There are clearly strong feelings on both sides of this issue. Is there a way to provide more comfort to transgender people using public facilities, while at the same time protecting the system from potential abuse? There is no simple answer to this question, but we ought to challenge ourselves to find a solution. What do you think? Should transgender people be permitted to use the bathroom of their choice?
584 comments
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Rhonda
oh my gosh!!!! I am so disgusted with this ridiculous issue. I for one do NOT want to go to a restroom with ANY man in a public forum. I would be very upset to have one of my young grand daughters go to a restroom with a gender confused man. It is NOT about being unkind...it is about being able to have my privacy and that of other women and girls not be invaded by a man of any kind. The ...other ...restroom is a good idea, however lets face it many small businesses can't afford to add another restroom to pander to a minority of people who making life very uncomfortable to the majority. This isn't about hate or prejudice, its about privacy concerns.
I also think any school who allows boys share a restroom or dressing room with girls..or visa versa is absolutely ridiculous. Having a 15 yr old boy in a room with a 9 yr old is asking for problems. I for one would remove my kids from any school that did co-ed dressing room or restroom.
I understand that people often have a problem with the gender they were born with and have concern for them and their rights, but the rights of others who do not want a person of the opposite sex in the same area of privacy needs to be taken into consideration. Yes...make an ..other ...restroom where it makes sense but do NOT take rights away from those who don't want to share with a person who is gender unhappy.
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Gloria
I agree with both Rhonda and Mary. I don't want a man in ANY restroom that I am in. You used to never hear about anything Transgender, Now people think it's alright to push this down people who oppose this bathroom issue, Let's not forget rapist, molesters of both children as well as women who would be scoping out their next victim or victims. If you are born with a penis then you go to the men's restroom and if you were born with a vagina then you go to the ladies room. Men don't want woman transgender or otherwise in there. Same for woman. If I'm in a ladies restroom and a man comes in, then he gets what he may not want. Bruce Jenner is a MAN and not a Woman though he might think he is just because, he changed his name to Caitlyn. He is and always will be a man and I bet his birth certificate says he is a MALE and NOT Female.
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Alan
Trans have been using restrooms since the beginning of time. Only recently certain folks tried creating an issue that was not there...it's an invented problem that they are trying to address in a way which simply creates more problems...
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M
alan, you are missing the whole point, it is not about if transgenders have or have not been using bathrooms, it is about who is going to police the bathrooms for abuses, do you think that only transgenders are going to be the only cross dressers around that are going to go into bathrooms, we already know that is not so, there are people mostly guys cross dressing so they can go into dressing rooms and bathrooms to get their jollies off of gulling at or taking pictures of or raping girls and women, how are you or any of you going to assure that we women and girls are not going to be victimized by guys who want to go into the bathrooms to victimize us for their cheap thrills? Even if the perp is caught, it does not make the woman or girl feel any less victimized and vitiated, maybe you don't understand that feeling but if you were ever victimized and violated like men do with women where you feel you had just been shot through the heart, you would understand that the perp being caught can't get back what he took from you, ever. and that is not something you have the right to decide for me or anybody else, it is my body, and no body has the right to victimize other people like that.
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Tracy
Mary, Mary oh how so contrary! I am afraid your garden will never really grow. I fear that it is God's love you may never know!
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M
Tracy you must not really want my input as you never leave your posts so i can click on reply, but oh well. my garden is very very green and lushest for your information. i have the greenest garden in the whole neighborhood. and my spiritual garden as well, as i know my messages are what the Lord wants me to speak. Jesus was also ridiculed if i remember right.
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Ken Dixon
"there are people mostly guys cross dressing so they can go into dressing rooms and bathrooms to get their jollies off of gulling at or taking pictures of or raping girls and women"
No, there aren't.
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Sheila Morrison
Yes Alan Meunier. They have been on the planet as long as there have been human beings. Native Americans referred to them as 'Two Spirited'.
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John Owens
Native Americans were also pagans. Most of their practices were not particularly compassionate or noble. Their knowledge of the land was admirable, but most of the tribes had little in the way of knowledge that would be beneficial to us, seeing that it did not benefit them greatly. They died out in wars and bad winters and drought, and the weak died all the time. I don't think they are a good example for us to look for guidance. Just saying.
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hsw
Wow. That's a lot of ignorance there John. They were doing fine until we gifted them with smallpox, brought war to their native lands, took everything they had, and deliberately destroyed their way of life. Just saying.
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John Owens
Au contraire, SueW. Your perception is highly romanticized and pardon me--brainwashed. YES, their different ways of life had endured for centuries, millennia perhaps, and they were all across the land. You omit the way many tribes warred with one another, living by pure savagery, plundering and killing. They left hardly any trace of their habitation of the land, because they did not progress far beyond the stone age. The ignorance is yours in this case. Once again, the pseudo-intellectualism criticizes the historical truth.
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hsw
History written by white men to justify what they did is not history to be relied upon as accurate.
Perhaps you also believe that slaves sang in the fields because they were happy ;)
I get my history from more reliable sources. Pseudo intellectualism? Hardly - but I wouldn't expect you to know the difference.
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M
In addition, sue, with regards to your disillusion, you have to understand that the first nations also took captives as slaves, so they were not all that holy.
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John Owens
Well, yes, hsw, it was written by the white men, BECAUSE IT HAD NEVER OCCURRED TO THE RED MAN IN NORTH AMERICA TO LEARN TO WRITE!!!! Where else would we get any history? You goof-ball! Would your "reliable" sources be Native American folklore? That's real reliable. Honestly, you just want to argue for argument's sake, not because you have anything at all worth saying.
Anyway, this whole controversy is utterly stupid. I was my hands of the bathroom argument. Having said that, if my GROWN daughter goes to the ladies' room, and a man goes in also, I predict a world of hurt on that dumb SOB, and possibly death.
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hsw
So...let me make sure I understand...your history is factual, but Native American history is "folklore."
That's it for me folks - this has never been a conversation and arguing with closed minds is just pointless.
Mary, you seem to enjoy putting words in other people's mouths along with the name-calling. I never said anyone was "holy" and I have no "disillusion," whatever you think the word means.
Keep arguing, keep seeking like-minded people so you can go on with your hatred and bigotry and feel good and justified - I'm going to find something more constructive to do, as there is nothing like that happening here.
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John Owens
In a word, hsw, YES. That is, insofar as any history is factual. The written word trumps oral tradition every time. Since they have no written word, all they have is folklore.
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M
John Owens, the American Indians had legends of Jesus the Christ visiting them. They passed that legend on verbally and there are still many tribes of them who remember the white God. that is why when Jesus told them he would be returning, they thought that when the white men came to this land that their White God was returning, So if you think that Christians are so bad, just remember that every every society but the muslims had Jesus, called by different names and at different times. And I am not referring to just as profits or messengers, like Buddha,
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M
Thank you very much for your words, John, you do sound sincere. I wish more people would understand what I got you to understand.
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M
John, I understand that your opinion if folklore is that they are invalid but it is not more invalid as the written word because much folklore has a bases with truths. And even before the written langue came about their was verbal and pictures, what you need to understand is the power of the verbal stories, In psych class my prof was teaching the importance of the verbal story tilling and the fundamental learning it can bring about because it can for such a more powerful picture in the minds of the listeners. Even in the basic teachings of many religions verbal is most important, chants, ect. in Wicca or other ritual religions it is important, in fundamental religions, it is more then just communication, God said the word and the word was made real. As important as the written langues is, it is only good for those who know how to read it. But things like story telling is far more powerful. even animals understand the verbal langues when spoken to them.
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hsw
mary I think for once we agree. Something for others to think about in regard to "folklore" - it is well documented that the first writings of the bible were done many years after the death of Jesus, so whatever was written was a recollection of events, which is, in turn, "folklore." Oral history is a tradition in many societies, and to attempt to invalidate it because it was not written in a form that we can understand is to write off a rich tradition of customs, practices, and lifestyles throughout the course of history.
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John Owens
But it WAS written, by the generation that lived through it. If it had not, by now it would have evolved into fantastic tales, full of errors. Everything (except prophecy) is written AFTER it happens. It is very seldom that chroniclers are present and writing as events unfold, except maybe in a king's court or very formal setting. Even that is subject to editing.
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Brother John
John Owens said on May 12, 2016 at 9:51 am "Everything (except prophecy) is written AFTER it happens. It is very seldom that chroniclers are present and writing as events unfold, except maybe in a king’s court or very formal setting. Even that is subject to editing."
And yet many Christians deny the same applies to their holy book. There are no eyewitnesses accounts of the life of Jesus, no original manuscripts, thousands of errors, changes and contradictions amongst the extant manuscripts (which are copies of copies of copies and often mere fragments) and century after century of editing.
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John Owens
There were eyewitness accounts to the life of Jesus (as in John and Matthew, the disciples), and Paul wrote of his own experiences. The additional biographies were written by people close to the close to the characters in them. It is true that some mistranslation has occurred, mainly due to the influence of the Roman church (which changed the names of heathen gods to saints and incorporated heathen rituals and customs), such as the cross, which was a post, not a cross, and the trinity, which appears nowhere in the older texts or in nature, except for a few plants that have three leaflets. These are considered sacrosanct, and yet are the results of mistranslations and creative editing. We all believe in things we cannot prove, and others that cannot be demonstrated. That is called (depending on one's point of view) ignorance, naiveté, or faith. The evolution of life from inorganic matter and complex life forms from simpler life forms is widely accepted but can never be demonstrated. Faith, or ignorance? Not scientific fact, because to be a scientific fact, something must be demonstrable and repeatable. Therefore it is a matter of faith. It is widely considered that if one does not follow emerging trends that he or she is backward but that CONCEPT is backward, since trends come and go and over centuries, move in circles. Certainty in one's beliefs is generally a positive thing, since it gives at least an illusion of security and a sense of right and wrong, without which humans cannot dwell in peace. For groups of humans, some general consensus about right and wrong must be reached, or there will always be conflict. It is when that consensus is called into question that people will begin to fight. The Revolutionary War, The French Revolution, later the Bolshevik Revolution were all examples of this conflict, and our own War Between the States. The Korean War, the Vietnam War, The Chinese and Mexican Revolutions, all were the results of challenging the status quo.
The original subject of this blog is a tremendous challenge to the accepted values of a large portion of the population, not a fringe minority. There will be friction and recrimination from and toward both sides. As for me, I do not demand that anyone adhere to my points of view, or my values. but as free citizens of the United States, we all have the right to express our points of view. I lament that we cannot always do it in a civilized, rational way. I am as guilty as anyone. I irritate myself in that I let others get under my skin. I want to be kind and reasonable, but when I am pricked, I bleed. I am too easily provoked. I resolve to be more kind, and show more wisdom. I believe that most of the people here on this blog are here for altruistic reasons, and not for contention, but between human nature and our different philosophies, we degenerate far too easily. Peace, love and good nutrition to all, Christian, Atheist, Buddhist (Taoist and Shinto), Hindu, Agnostic, Pagan, etc. -
Brother John
For those proposing that the Bible is inerrant and that there are reliable eyewitness accounts of the life of Jesus, please scroll down to the video of a lecture by Dr. Bart Ehrman that I posted on May 23. Feel free to contact Dr. Ehrman directly with any evidence you have that contradicts his research.
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Pastor Bill
Rhonda -
Your statement is incongruous. You state "This isn't about hate or prejudice" and yet you cannot even attach the concept of an "other" (your word, not mine) restroom to the rest of your sentence. Each time you refer to this you segregate the word from the rest of the sentence with an ellipsis - ... other ... Furthermore, your use of words such as "disgusted" and "ridiculous" belie what I believe are your true intentions.
Transgender human beings are more than unhappy with their birth gender. These individuals do not identify with their birth religion at all. They are, psychologically, different from their birth gender. Unhappy implies a choice; there is no choice. Our function as spiritual leaders must, first and foremost, be to love each and every one of our human brothers and sisters, and sentient being. We need less judging, less fear, and more unconditional acceptance and love.
I appreciate your concern for safety and privacy. I do not let my 11-year-old son visit a public restroom alone. Not out of a fear of a specific group of people, but out of a love for him. Ultimately, if someone wishes access to the restroom of another gender they will find a way to get it. We should devote our efforts into finding ways to identify and help these individuals who undoubtedly struggle with mental illness instead of spreading fear, anger and hate.
Many Blessings To You!
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Kathy
Well said Pastor Bill and saving me time. I am right outside the restroom door for my 7 yr, also, out of love. We should spend more time understanding and maybe go visit a group you are not so sure of , to be better educated. Use compassion - move away from fear and - more to love.
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Muffy
So slam people instead of trying to find a solution. This is not helping as much as you think Rhonda's opinion isn't helping.
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Pastor Bill
Muffy -
I do not see any "slamming" in either Kathy or my own comments to Rhonda. I suggested a solution, namely, working to understand and love every human being. I believe that we are all learning, every day. In order for us to learn we sometimes need to have a behavior or belief brought to the level of conscious thought. This was/is my intention - not "slamming," but educating. I most sincerely apologize if my tone read as a slam.
Many Blessings
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Sheila Morrison
"We should devote our efforts into finding ways to identify and help these individuals who undoubtedly struggle with mental illness instead of spreading fear, anger and hate." They are not 'confused' OR mentally ill. They are born that way. My wife is transgender, IT IS NOT A CHOICE. Man people are either thick, confused or absolutely filled with hate.
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Pastor Bill
Rev. Sheila -
Thank you for calling me on my statement. It was very poorly constructed. I was trying to refer to those individuals who would pretend to be the opposite gender just to enter a restroom for malicious reasons. These are the individuals I believe most likely suffer from some mental illness, not those who are transgender. I completely agree with you, those who are transgender are neither confused or mentally ill. I most sincerely apologize for the poorly constructed paragraph, but more importantly for any hurt my words caused to you or anyone else. I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive.
Many Blessings
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Min Eric j. Freeman
Where is your church I read your reply about love and be in love and love will fix. If this were true there would be no problems or gfights or disagreement. Yes we must love and we should try to touch hearts but not at the point of ignorance this is a easy fix take the gender plates down but where do we go from there. Patience is needed if we could just have a intelligent conversation instead of all the belittling from the top down . Live is reciprocal its handed out not wanting it to come back. Be patient God will gix this if they believe in HIM or not
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AnaMarie Medina
Ultimately, no matter how ignorant some comments sound, the answer remains the same, a one stall bathroom, first come first serve.
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Tracy
Before HB2 did you pay attention to was in the stall next to you? Did you just go in and do your business, wash your hands and leave? Fear is a horrible thing.
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M
You all who know me, know by now my stance. I believe the who issue to be a lot of molarcky, their so called rights tramp on the rights of everybody else, and we are setting up situations which will allow abuse, massive abuse. why the hell do you think these laws were set up in the first place. because seniors don't want other people of the opposite sex looking at their body, moral people of any age don't want the opposite sex looking at them, hell in families, children are not even supposed to see other family members of the opposite sex from seeing each other and it is considered child endangerment. not to mention the chances of sexual assaults and criminal activities which will increase from a law like this. all these perverts need to stop tramping on the non perverted people, if they choose to be perverted they need to face the consequences for their actions and learn to handle the ribbing that they take, after all they are doing things by their choosing, and if they don't don't make the right choices, then they need to change their choices they make, not make everybody else who did not have any thing to do about the decisions they make be treated like they did something wrong just because of others bad choices. if we are not our brothers keepers, then we should not be their whipping boys either.
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Jesus + kittens = love
I can't wait to see you complain when you get exactly what you want and some big bearded man uses the same bathroom as you because he was born a woman.
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M
you are confused as using a bathroom with a big bearded man is not what i want. that is what you, how could not be a he if he was born a woman, he would not be a he. If the person is a woman then they are entitled to use the bathroom with me. it doesn't matter what she would look like. but a person needs to act as the sex they were born as or they are cheating themselves of the experience they were supposed to be having. rather they like it or not. they are only cheating themselves like a cheater taking a test. we are all here for learning and we are given test by God and it is how we respond to them which determiners our character when we cheat ourselves out of the experiences we are supposed to be having then we are not learning what we are here to learn. And if that means that a person who was born as a female and does not feel like a female, then she needs more practice as being a female until she get comfortable with being a female. it is that simple, and if you don't understand that then you are ignorant but you have no right to expect the rest of society to coddle you because you have a problem. we all have our own problems we have to solve them on our own, whatever they might be, the rest of us in the world is not here to coddle you because you have a problem that you need to get worked out. it is your problem, solve it in the privacy of your own home and family where the rest of society work our their problem. that is what the home and family are for.
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Thad Jackson
This is so funny. you think that trans people and trans supporters are the ones with the problem?! Seems like you're the one with the problem, just saying. These people are solving their own problem. They take the measures necessary so they can look on the outside the way that they feel on the inside. that's the simplest way I can put it for someone with a small-minded attitude to understand. Like the person you responded to already, I can't wait for you to be the one with the problem when a person who was born a woman, undergoes their surgeries and becomes 100% physically a man but you are forced to share a bathroom with them because they were born genetically female. This is what you're suggesting. that that person who is 100% male physically now, still has to use the ladies room. Not only is that mean, selfish, unfair and stupid of you to suggest this, you should also realize that you're the type of person that would scream, bitch and complain about it. So really it seems like you're the one who has a problem, not being able to coexist with people that have different views from you. maybe they don't believe in the same God as you. maybe they do but are more forgiving and understanding, kind and loving. you know, the way God is supposed to inspire people to be. Whatever your religious view is, it shouldn't have ANY bearing on where anybody else in this world goes pee. This isn't about you, so shut up and sit down.
bigot
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Reverend Arianna Davis ULC California
Bravo Thad and others, thank you! As an ally of transgender and other oppressed people, I've learned quite a bit. Transgender people are truly the gender they know they are on the inside, which can be opposite of the physical sex they're born with. They go on a difficult journey to line up the outside with their internal gender. For ignorant, hateful people who think that they're directly appointed by God to tell someone what or who to be or where to pee, is inhumane. This attitude often leads to discrimination, assault, murder of trans people. This is also a reason why the suicide rate is high amongst them. Many sources of statistics show that transgender people do not go into bathrooms to molest children or people, that's a myth.
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M
they are not solving their won problem, they are what they are doing is to victimize the rest of the people in the country, to solve their own problem would be to not involve any other outsider unless it was for example a psychiatrist. That does not solve their problem, that bring others into it.if they want to bring others into it then they have no bitch coming as to how others reacts to them. their are just certain things that needs to be kept private, and sexuality and gender are just some of those things.
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Peter
Mary, you lost any trace of credibility immediately with your claim that transgender folk are perverts, and then that they "choose to be perverted".
How, in the 21st century, you and your ilk can cling to this ignorant view is beyond sad.
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M
actually i did not, if you did your research on the definition of pervert, you would see i have all the credibility of smart people who know what the word really means. from the oxford dictionary, here is the definition. Definition of pervert in English:
pervert VERB
Pronunciation: /pəˈvəːt/
[WITH OBJECT] 1Distort or corrupt the original course, meaning, or state of (something): he was charged with conspiring to pervert the course of justice More example sentences Synonyms 2Lead (someone) away from what is considered natural or acceptable: Hector is a man who is simply perverted by his time(as adjective perverted) Sexually abnormal and unacceptable: he whispered perverted obscenities
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Brother John
Peter asked how people like mary can cling to ignorant views in the 21st century. How about by steadfastly basing their morality and beliefs on a corrupted mish mash of Bronze Age writings that chronicle the horror of believing the barbaric ramblings of a monstrous and immoral entity posing as a god and channeled through the dreams and visions of men believed to be prophets?
It's fitting that this topic involves the use of bathrooms as many of the comments are unadulterated crap.
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James Benson
I believe that we are here to learn how to be better people and to leave the world a better place than how we found it. How we respond to the suffering of others says a lot about the content of our heart and our soul as well as the content of our character. If we can empathize with the pain of others, we can help make the world a better place by making one person feel more understood and less isolated. We are all connected. When we cruelly dismiss one another, berate or demean one another, we leave the world--and ourselves--worse off than it was.
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M
James your belief is admirable but mislead, if that suffering was because of something that person did not have anything to do with then yes, being compassionate to their needs would be humanitarian deed, but when people are having problems because they bring it on themselves by their actions, hence the phrase, sin no more, then they need to make the change. if somebody keeps robbing the bank and winding up in prison, you don't be compassionate and bail them out, they need to learn to stop robbing banks. The people do not learn what they need to learn being coddled, they need tough love in order to make them want to change and be better themselves. To accept the line that people are using is allowing them to manipulate and use society, that is just wrong. Even Jesus had some doubts when he felt he was being used. Maybe you don't mind being used but some of us really are tired of others using and abusing the rest of society because of their whining. It is their problem and coddling them does not make the world a better place, all it does is invites more coddling. that is what is going on with the muslims, they want to be coddled and the more they get coddled the more they use the system to kill. even Dr Phill says over coddling is abuse. he said it is the worse abuse their is.
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Rachel Heffron
Mary, have you any idea what so ever? STAGERING!!! is the number of suicides that have been brought about by people as narrow minded as you apear to be. You have very cleary never witnessed the unbeleivable amount of pain that transgender people go through (even before transition). You know nothing of our experiences. You earlier statement was dead wrong. "If you are uncomfortable with your sex then you just need more practice in it and you will be comfortable" WRONG. Me, born male, Eagle Scout at 16 yrs, MVP in 3 male dominated sports in highschool, Years of active military service with two bronze stars and 3 purple hearts. I kicked all sorts of ass at "being male" but on the inside I was dying. Your God certainly didnt help. Spent 26 years beging that asshole to make my pain go away and it only ever got worse. So what would you have? Me take matters into my own hands and do the only thing available to ease my pain "by transitioning" or stick with your ways which would assuradly have led to my death. You speak very strongly against us when you cant even begin to comprehend the hell we lived in every day trying it your way. It's easy to look at people and make quick judgments about them, their present and their past, but you'd be amazed at the pain and tears a single smile hides. What a person shows to the world is only one tiny facet of the iceberg hidden from sight. And more often then not, it's lined with cracks and scars that go all the way to the foundation of their soul.
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Tom
Mary you are totally confused here. If someone is born a woman, you want that person to use the women's restroom with you even if at some point she changes genders and becomes a big bearded man. So YOU in fact want big bearded men that were born women to be in the bathroom. How are you so violently ignorant?
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Brother John
Stop making sense of the nonsensical, Tom!!
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M
no I did not say I would want to share a bathrooms with at bearded man, rather or not they became a man before or after, i said I would not mind sharing the bathroom with a bearded woman. that is where the sense is.
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Rick
If he was born a women but looks like a man. I doubt very much that he would be wearing a beard. Do a little checking into what you're talking about.
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Minister V
If the person is a trans man, meaning he was assigned female at birth (AFAB), why wouldn't he have a beard like any other man may have?
The rest of this post isn't directed at any one person - it's just a response on this topic.
That's the caveat, the catch, that these anti-trans laws get hung up on. The proponents claim they don't want "men in the women's restroom", and then proceed to create a law that requires trans men - in their often extremely masculine glory - to use the women's facilities. Famous examples of trans men, would be Aydian Dowling (the Men's Health cover winner), Chaz Bono.
Meanwhile, these laws also demand that women who are AMAB to use the men's room. Do you really think that Janet Mock, Laverne Cox, or Caitlyn Jenner belong in a men's room?
You'll note that I use the phrase Assigned (blank) At Birth, and not the haphazard word choice of "born a (blank)". Because I, like everyone else, was born as a baby, a human baby, who was assigned a sex based on the doctor's judgement of the shape of my genitals. And then because of this judgement, we, as society, hang certain expectations and demands upon that child. If the child is AMAB, we put the child in blue clothes, and expect them to be rough and tumble, and like sports. If AFAB, we put the child in frilly pink things often adorned with bows, and expect that they be quiet, reserved, and delicate, and push them towards the idea that they should be nurturers.
It's time we learn that even among the categories of "men" and "women" there is a multitude of variation. But these anti-trans bathroom laws ignore this variability of the human experience. They police anyone who traverses outside these expected gender norms. The masculine seeming cisgender woman is harmed by these laws as much as the extremely feminine (but likely non-cis-passable) trans woman.
Those in favor of these laws, claim it's to protect people from molestation and assault. The statistics bear out that we're 4 times in greater threat of that from someone we know closely, rather than from a stranger. But fear of the unknown has always held tightly to us.
To put it plain and simple, these laws are based and rooted in hatred of those who transgress that which we believe someone must be based on our own gendered expectations.
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Ken Dixon
Rick, have you even bothered to look at pictures of female-to-male transgender people? Your doubts would be removed very quickly.
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M
oh, i see what you are doing, you are the ignorant one here, or you would know that may mystics and many who study mysticism like the Rosicrucian, and even Christian physics know this, if you were half as smart as you though you were you would know this. try studying some metaphysics before you pipe in.
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Brother John
You're the one who needs to do some checking Rick. Hormone therapy is fairly common. http://point5cc.com/a-trans-guys-guide-to-beards/
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Barbara Wojciak
Mary, please tell me that you are not a practicing minister. The hate you spew cannot possibly be the balm Jesus asks us to be for each other.
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M
I practice as often as i am able to, and Jesus did say that in genesis said men were created and then God said it was not good so he created women. God said it was not good because God did not like men practicing sex on each other and other animals and that i not practicing hate, that is practicing moral standards, and Jesus was the most moral person ever on the face of the planet, and if you don't want to accept this then you need to look at your belief standards. Jesus also cherished and respected women, he never once said that women should pretend to be man and man should pretend to be women. the Essene (some of the most perfect beings who has come to teach us and of whom Jesus was a member) taught that when you enter into their mystery schools you need to dress the sex you were born as because you need to learn the lessons in life that you need to learn being sex you are. you can't do that when you are living the life that you were not born as. God does not make mistakes, God does not give you more then you can handle, God does not change the rules, it is man/women who changes the rules afterwards, and that is why man/women sin. that has nothing to do with hate, it is your and your kind that has warped the truths into making it something it isn't. and that is sin, that is evil.
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hsw
Oh Dear...pardon the expression...GOD. "...and Jesus did say that in genesis..." It's really sad when you try to cite your bible and get it so horribly wrong. That phrase alone negates anything else you said.
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M
I never said the verse because i figure most ministers can find it and should be know where to find anything they need to if they need to find it, so it was not necessary, Jesus never cited his sources, not even when he told stories. it is there, that is all that counts.
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John Owens
Just BTW and FYI, Jesus WAS the God in Genesis. Ref Heb 1, John 1, and many other verses but those two are the most obvious and easy to remember.
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Brother John
Wow, John Owens. His transformation from God 1.0 described accurately by Richard Dawkins below to the relatively kind and caring Jesus/God 2.0 is much more startling than the transformations being discussed here.
“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
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John Owens
Dickie Dawkins is hardly an expert on God and his rants bespeak what a carnal-minded heathen he is. Jesus said, if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father. That alone should show that Mr. Dawkins is trying to teach things he does not understand. Again, John 1 and Hebrews 1. I do not make reference to outside sources, because they are polluted. Scripture interprets scripture. People twist scripture.
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Brother John
Neither "Dickie" or anyone else knows what Jesus said as there are no credible eyewitness accounts of his teachings or miracles either in the Bible or in outside sources, John. I heartedly agree that people have twisted scripture based on the thousands of errors, contradictions and omissions found in what passes for the Bible today. A few important ones are covered in the link at the bottom.
Here's a link to excerpts of lectures by Dr. Bart Ehrman, who is one of the world's best known and credentialed New Testament scholars. The introduction details his qualifications and credentials. Many of Dr. Ehrman's lectures are available on YouTube. Unlike the vast majority of Christians, he has devoted decades to studying extant manuscripts and is able to read and compare them in their original language.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_DDuSAklcY
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bri
Some toilets in Europe have a door landlord men and one labeled women but inside you are all together What's the big fuss!
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M
Charles, the fuss is when they are all together in one bathroom they usually are in family, not a bunch of strangers, and when you have strangers in the same bathrooms and much of the time when family member are all using the same bathrooms you have such a thing happen called sexual abuse, and molestation, rape and video taping, and modest people and people with morals dont want people of the opposite sex to see their body, children loose their innocence when they have to be confronted with sexuality, and if you don't know that, they you need to be educated. that is why in modern days they don't even like siblings of opposite sex sharing the same bedrooms, and also why parents can be charged with child endangerment to even let children see adults naked. The fact that you have to ask proves to me that you and many other people in this society don't understand common sense stuff. And just because Europe does things, anythings, does not mean America should or needs to do it. We have been and need to still be different then Europe. We don't need to keep up with the Jones being Europe, we are suppose to be setting the pace. We need to do what is comfortable to the majority not the minority of the Americans.
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Ken Dixon
"when family member are all using the same bathrooms you have such a thing happen called sexual abuse, and molestation, rape and video taping"
Is this really happening where you live?
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M
yes, that does happen, but in families it does not need to only be done in shared bathrooms, it can happen at bed time and after bed times, ect, but it is more likely that to happen outside of the family in shared bathrooms with strangers as a lot of family member either look out for one another or are taught to not think of other family member that way. but that does not mean it does not happen but it also does not mean it happens all the time, it also does not mean that strangers don't do it to others when the opportunities arises .
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M
also Ken as I was saying you and I are saying the same thing, so lay off of me. I am not the damn liberals trying to justify that perversions of the lefts.
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M
ken regarding the dressing rooms, I said the exact same things, if you would bother reading my other past posts, you would see that. that is exactly what i had been saying to all the dumbasses.
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Carrie
There are two things to be said here. Number one is that there are currently about 750,000 trans people living in the country. There has NEVER been an arrest of even one of them for abuse or assault in a bathroom. Our republican lawmakers, on the other hand have a long history of assault and abuse in public restrooms. Since most restrooms have stalls and doors, you will never know who is next to you, unless you are the pervert! I, for one, would rather share a restroom with a trans than a bigot. The other one, and this is a biggie....If your God teaches you to hate, you are not following anything that is good!
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M
first of all you are an idiot, rather or not a trans gender person has ever assualted anybody which i don't believe as they are perverts, is not the issue, how are you going to prove that person is a transgender person when they go into the bathrooms or not, not all bathrooms have stalls, and penises spray all over hell and makes messes all over the place, and , children do not need to be exposed to such, as it confuses them and they also loose their innocence, there is a reason why it is called corrupting children minds and child endangerment to even have parent who are not going to be perverted towards children either not expose themselves to children, but it is too much perils to children, senior women don't want to be in restrooms with the opposite sex either, and people of moral values, notice i said moral values which is something trans-gendered people and people like you don't seen to have. that is what the danger is, and just the fact that you and people who think like you don't understand that is why your type of people have not right to make those kinds of decisions, because you don't know right from wrong. And if person does not know right from wrong they have no right to have a vote on such things.If you were born one sex, you were born it for a reason, they have no rights to impose their will on the rest of society.
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Tracy
Children are so much more open than adults.
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M
children are also more naive, and vulnerable, that is why they are conned, told their neighbor has cooties, and they go off with strangers, they don't have common sense with is something that doe not completely fully develop until their early thirties, unless they have a mental condition that keeps their brain from fully developing then they become narcissistic and psychopathic, and coddling them causes much of that. that i also why many of them are highly influenced when they are children, and why many of them can be turned into sexual predictors and be sexually influenced with being molested, and any adult that doesn't know know that has no right being a parent because that is common sense and if a parent doesn't know about common sense they cant keep their children safe. Children needs parents to teach them. God does not say to respect your mother and father for no reason, it is because the children need the supposed wisdom of the mother and father, we are supposed to be teaching the children, not listening to the ignorance of the children who are only repeating what they had been taught by the others in their life that influenced their thinking. baby animal would never be weaned if the parent listened to the baby and not did what was best for the baby and deprive them of food or other things so the baby decides that if they don't want to be hungry they will eat, it does not mean the parent does not love the baby, it means they it is their responsibility to teach their babies what they need to know. if the baby know it all they would not need adult animals and people, they would be putting their fingers in electrical outlets, and walking out in front of traffic, and running around unkempt and all kind of immature things, and this is one of those immature things, you and your kinds of people don't want to learn what you need to learn to learn right from wrong and you want to do whatever you want even it it puts you and others in peril. that is irrational.
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M
mother says, there are a great number of the men, are sexual predators,therefore women and girls are not safe around them and become venerable when they are in certain setting and private places, men will use all kinds of tactics including using cameras to see women and little girls naked bodies, and little girls and senior are very vulnerable and are raped and murdered by men in private places. sometimes women and young girls esp when traveling need to use women's bathrooms to wash and change clothes and any normal woman doesn't want a man or men standing around watching her when she is naked. if that is the case, why should be even bother wearing cloths in the first place, why shouldn't we all just go around naked. mother said she would like to feel safe from perverts in private places and transvestites are still men and they need to use the men's bathrooms. people choose to be live a particular life as a particular sex before they were born, and they need to live their life as the person in the body they choose to be born into. you have a mental problem, don't try to force others to accept your life style. mother also says until men can put sex in it's place, women and girls and boy are not going to be safe. mother said she for one does not want to feed the perversions of a jerky pervert. There was a story told by a member in church a few months ago. it went something like this, a girl wanted to go to a prom with her boyfriend, they asked her parent and they said they never went to prom, because they never thought they need that experience but they told the girl okay if she wanted to. she though that was easy, that was great. The girl went with the store with her parent, and they allowed her to pick out the prom dress she wanted to ware, and she thought that was great. the day of the prom came along and when the daughter and her boyfriend was ready to leave for the prom, the parents asked the girl if they would go out to the smoke house to bring in a some smoked meats. and she thought they were crazy, she said that would taint her dress and ruin it from all the smoke that would get into the clothes, and their parents said yes that is the whole point, they could go to the prom, and they might have an occasion that they might get more intimate then they should had, and do something that will taint them for the rest of their life, that is what happens with children who are exposed to naked men. that is why it is considered child endangerment when adults expose their naked bodies to children, it is particularly harmful if there are sexual experiences. children and innocent adults do not need to be put in that kind of danger. maybe if you had been taught to use common sense you might not had turned out the way you are now, you might be a more moral person instead of a pervert.
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Tracy
Are you the mother from the novel/ movie Carrie written by Stephen King?
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Ken Dixon
"people choose to be live a particular life as a particular sex before they were born, and they need to live their life as the person in the body they choose to be born into."
There are no words to describe how little sense this makes.
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Ken Dixon
"men will use all kinds of tactics including using cameras to see women and little girls naked bodies"
What kind of a world do you live in?
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M
Excuse me, Ken, but that is exactly my point, that is just what I have been trying to say to all the stupid people. so don't come down on me when we are saying the same thing, tell that to all the stupid liberals. they are the stupid ones who don't want to see that and except it.
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Brother John
I normally don't reply to your often incoherent ramblings, mary, but have included a few links to information which might help quell your paranoia and fear mongering. FYI I've been using my penis for over 60 years, mary, and can assure you that it does not "spray all over hell" nor does it "make messes all over the place". Perhaps you've had some bad experiences with men who failed to control theirs, but they would be the exception, not the rule.
The second link has a great picture to illustrate the issue you and others will create with your unnecessary hysteria.
http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/03/20/15-experts-debunk-right-wing-transgender-bathro/198533
https://mic.com/articles/114066/statistics-show-exactly-how-many-times-trans-people-have-attacked-you-in-bathrooms#.oSs3dEw2e
Before rushing to find some sensational story to post in order to justify your belief that transgendered people have no moral values, take a couple of minutes to read these articles. The first one contains the opinions of 15 experts, although I suppose you'll put them all in the same category.
BTW, mary. Calling people idiots as you did with cary is not only rude and counterproductive to meaningful dialog, it's also hypocritical based on much of what you contribute.
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M
further more it is not bigotry, to protect people and the innocent it is not being bigoted, it if means keeping moral values, it is not bigoted, maybe all those who hate Christians and Christian values are bigots, and maybe they don't need to be in bathrooms with people of moral values because they are perverts, anybody going against the normal and pervert the original idea of the normal, is defined as a pervert, that is what they/you or those types are. since when should the minorities call the shots, since the Caucasians are the minorities maybe they need special rights now, if and when Christians become a minority once again they maybe the should demand and get special rights, but your those types have never and will never give any consensus, so why should you they think they should have any rights to call the shots. we can say that you or they are bigots for not liking Caucasian and Christians, or morals.
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Reverend Dave
Mary, I'm sorry you have so much hate for something you don't understand. Change is innevitable. You can fight it or you can learn to live with it. But you can not stop it. Have you been assigned to judge people that you neither know or understand? Name calling and insulting remarks don't seem to be making your point any more valid. I hope You can find peace in your heart.
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M
that is a lot of bull, me and many other people do know a lot of what we are talking about, we know a lot more about what we are talking about then you want to give us credif for. change is not necessarily inevitable and it is not always good, just because there is change does not make it good or does not mean it needs to change, if it is not broken, don't fix it and the only thing that is broken it the mental perception of the sickles. The sickles are not the only one who think they know thing. normal none sick in the heads people know far better about why thing are the way they are then you or the sickle irrational people who just want their sick delusions to be coddled, so you need to just watch who you tell about what you think others need to accept and what they don't. it might be okay for you but it is NOT okay and not just with the rest of the majority of the intelligent and none mental people int he country, but also the morally sound people. Because it is not okay and never will be any more the the muslims marrying a 6 year old or others who are perverted and want to have sex with dogs, or other animal, I suppose you would think that that change is inevitable too and that we should accept it and allow it to happen. No, If you don't have common sense and you dont know right from wrong, then you don't have the right to tell others who do that they are the ones who are wrong, We in this country are getting fed up with being bullied by you freaks trying to tell us we are wrong. you are wrong. go use your bathrooms in your own homes where it doesn't matter how much of a freak you are.
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Reverend Dave
I don't like or understand it any more than you. But I don't think it can be fixed with hate. Go ahead and call names and keep a closed mind. Good luck in making a positive difference in the world. My suggestion was to offer everyone a private place to poo and pee without the threat of someone we don't want to share that private space with. You seem to want to attack rather than discuss. I'm done here.
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hsw
This is what happens when ignorant, uneducated people get their information only from right wing blogs and Facebook memes. Transgendered people are not perverts. You who are so concerned about which bathroom perfect strangers are using, what's under their clothing, and whether families that are not yours are seeing each other naked are far more reverted than those who just want to #peeinpeace. Grow up.
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Carol Amina
Mary This is the first time I have ever read your posts.
First off I'm very sorry for you. You must be a lonely person. So much hate spews from your words. It seems you have omitted the word Love in what you say is Gods word. I think those of us who disagree with you and the things you say should not join you in hatfullness but send loving light your way in hopes to sooth your angry hateful thoughts. Let's not return hate for hate, but send love instead. -
M
Carol, if what you say is true, ask yourself why that is, maybe if it is true as you say, then you need to understand that it would be because to all the crap people like you and all these perverts have been pushing onto us since forever, of course some of us will be upset, being bullied so badly. you would be too if you had gumption. I mean if as all of you say your perverts and friends have been so harmed by not getting your way about spreading the perversions you have, how do you expect others who has been bullied like since forever to "LIKE" being bullied by people like you? You think it is okay to bully others and they should not be upset, you are living is a pipe dream. So stop smoking that funny weed and come back to reality, if you don't want people to be not loving as you say, then stop doing things to them to make them become unloving. stop bullying other people. you think it is okay to bully others to get your way, but you don't like others who push back a little, well tough. i will not stop pushing back. not in this life or the next.
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Reverend Tanya
Reverend Dave, I agree with you.I think we have bigger problems than Transgender people using the restroom of their choice. We have more problems with Pedophiles and Transgender people are NOT pedophiles. I am Not Transgender but I know people that are and they are not going around molesting anyone and are Not trying to convert anyone. Also why is it that everyone only thinks of Transgenders as being born male? I know Transgenders that were born as women and then became male. So all of you haters that want to blame all sin on Transgender people think about that. If you want them to use the restroom of the sex they were born, that would mean that women that are now men would be using the women's restroom. Stop being afraid of things you do not understand. STOP THE HATE!
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Jesus + kittens = love
oh it's my absolute favorite when a bigot says something super bigoty and then tacks on "but I'm not a bigot"
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M
you are so stupid and ignorant or you would understand that to call other who have a difference of opinion to you does not make a person a bigot, it makes them an individual. people who don't approve of what somebody does can still like a person for who they are and they are not a bigot, it just means they don't approve of that behavior, that does not make a person a bigot, but people have to learn that that people are entitled to their own thoughts and opinions and do not deserve to be bullied for it. if you were intelligent you would understand that. the problem with you people is that you want to live in an anarchy with no accountability for your actions, and when somebody calls you on it, you go after them because you don't want to change and be accountable. that doe not matter, it also does not change anything you are all immature and acting like spoiled narcissistic brats who wants to get everything your way, and you will through a tantrum when you don't. Any mature person knows other wise. so you see calling me names and trying to bully me is not going to change my thinking and i am not going to give into my principles just because you are bullies.
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barysmirdworld
Nobody is calling you names. You are doing bigoted stuff and that fits the definition of a bigot; you're a bigot. An example of name calling is when you call a whole class of people perverts just because you imagined a world where that is true even though there's absolutely no evidence of it in the real world.
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M
Tracy, of course not you moron. she said she is not she is very far from it in fact she doesn't even know who that is. but she says that because of people like you, life is getting that bad because of people like you. she said there are people out there, that think the world is flat, too. but that does not make it flat, just like all of your guys warped ideas, it is all an illusion, you might be living a life in an illusion,but don't try to make everybody else live in a life that is in your delusions because you will have less of a chance of changing my mothers minds to this they you would be changing my mind.
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Tracy
Do you have more than 1 mother? Are you a child of lesbian mothers? Are you a computer just generating stuff to keep blogging? I am unsure what you are! You do not capitalize or punctuate. You cannot spell. I believe you are not a real person. You may be experiencing a psychotic break.
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M
no i do not have more then one mother, and i don't capitalize because it is not necessary, it is easier for me to type what i am thinking at the time i am typing it if i dont have to worry about capitalizing. i am not addressing congress so it is to me not a big deal. i am not a robot, and as far as spelling, it looks right to me, and the spell checker doesn't come on or it is a word that is not in the spell checker or i don't feel it is in deserved to be capitalized. and since you don't know me, i suggest you to stop bullying me trying to say untrue things of me and my mother, seeing that you dont know me and mine.just because you don't agree with some of us, does not mean we are not right. their are structures in the way of the universe and everything you and your types of people do are counter to that.
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Carol Amina
Are you one of those Christians who looks down your nose at the people that Jesus would have sat and ministered to. I think yes! If you spent as much time being kind and loving the way you Bible tells you to you would not be so bitter and hateful! I'll not wast my time reading anymore if your ignorant rants.
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M
No I would have been and am one of his disciples as i study the same metaphysical teachings as he does, and I would understand not only his parables but also his teachings, I am one of those who he said would understand and be ready for his messages, because I study the metaphysics even now and the metaphysical school I belong to know and teaches Just the same things as what I have been trying to teach all of you, like people choose the life and the body and the circumstances they are born into and what they encounter in their lives they encounter for a reason, and if they want things to change they need to remember the golden rule and the act of Karma. In fact when my family went to one of their meetings and their were transvestites who wanted to come to the meeting dressed in drag and be queens and they were sent home, they were told that they choose to be born a certain sex and they needed to have the experiences of being in that sex so they had to come dressed in the correct clothes for the sex they were born into. anything else is them practicing being delusional. They are only hurting them selves by denying their experiences of being in the body with the same sex they were born to live.
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Scott D.
OMG Mary! Your mother sounds like an absolute joy to have at a party. J/k. She actually sounds completely terrified of everything everywhere. She also sounds like the kind of perso who may hold it Til she gets home to go pee, so mother should have no problem allowing other young ladies use the potty she passed up.
I'm also not sure of your age or mental condition Mary, but I have to assume you are an adult if you are on here. If so, do you have thoughts of your own that don't involve mothers influence?
I am terrified for you. Great now I sound like Mary's mother.
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Jeff
Your comment about "there has NEVER been an arrest of trans people for abuse or assault in a bathroom" is incorrect. While I was in law enforcement, there were several arrests of transgender people for abuse and assault. Assaults were made in public restrooms, in the park and several other places. There were arrests of non transgender people as well.
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Judie
Sorry why spend money? They say they are neither boy or girl . Excuse me yes what ever you were born as that is what you are
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hsw
Science disagrees. You should get some.
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M
you are wrong, transgenders are pervert, by definition they of the word perverted they do not do thing the normal way, they pervert the way they dress, they are perverts, you are the one who is ignorant.from the oxford dictionary, Alter (something) from its original course, meaning, or state to a distortion or corruption of what was first intended: he was charged with conspiring to pervert the course of justice so before you ignorantly accuse others of not knowing anything, i think you should look in the mirror. .
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Tracy
Oh Mary I am not a bully! I would never bully....I just had questions about what you wrote. Asking questions is not bullying but calling someone names is bullying. Bullying would also be trying to force one's belief system on another. I have not done that to you or anyone. I have worked in the Human Rights field for over 25 years.
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John Owens
Yeah, you kinda have been, to Mary
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Tracy
John, No I have not. I have not called her any names except for contrary! I have questioned items in her post and her writing style. If we must act like children... She called me names! As my kids would say... She has anger issues! It's all dialogue!
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M
also don't give me that crap about being naked, i know all about being naked, and i don't go getting naked just any and every place either, it leads to people attacking you. it also protect you from weathering your skin, but by society rule it is still corrupting the minds of children, but apparently you don't understand about innocent minds being corrupted, that is what happened with Adam and Eve, once they partook of the fruit of each other, they could not longer see each other naked again. It was too distracting. And that is not something little children need to have on their minds and be thinking about as kids, and it does not matter if you have a problem or not with it, you do not have the right to force your views on everybody else. your rights end where everybody else began.
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M
sue, some of us do know about and have science degrees, but their is no science about being transgender, there is not dna proof of anybody being transgender and their is not any good reason for anybody to be transgender other then a mental illness. if you think it is science then where is your proof.
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Alan
So, to you, Psychology is still "Voodoo Science"??? Time to get with the program....and into the 21st century. Either get with the times or get left behind. Being on the wrong side of history is forever.
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M
for you information you are the one who said that i said psychology is voodoo science, not me, but since you did bring it up, their are just so much of psychology that is based only on this persons perception and that persons perception, and that is inconsistent, so it cant really be really scientifically proven as there is no constancy in it. even the famous founder of psychology, was always high through most of his practice so how can he began to be considered reliable esp since he had a penis fetish. I have studied psychology, and i know some of what i am talking about. in psychology there is something that is called cognitive dissonance and that is what you all are doing to justify your action. even though that is all that you have, it is still irrational. and just because Europe does something certain ways, does not mean America needs to do it either, that is what is suppose to set up apart from undeveloped worlds and Europe.
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Tom
I believe this is a manufactured problem, created by many with little to do in their lives. For years, people have gone to public facilities to take care of their business and probably did not even notice who else was in the room. Personally, I just want to get in, get out and go on with my business. Without making businesses incur a lot of additional expense, I do not really know what the solution is to this not so real problem. If people are worried about a man in a women's restroom, that is another good reason they have cubicles for privacy and not urinals. Same applies to women in men's rooms. Perhaps some of these overly concerned folks need to visit other parts of the world once in a while. This is a non-issue.
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Spiritual Healer Erma E Boyd
It is my personal opinion that you need to use the bath room that you have the junk downstairs for. Yes you feel like you are not the sex you were gifted and you wish it to be different or changed, I understand that. However, until it has been completely changed you need to use the room for what ever you look into your undies and see, or not see in the case of females who are nicely tucked in. There are children in public restrooms who do not need to be exposed to this freedom of shared bathrooms. At a club or bar or anyplace that children are not allowed to be, then I just do NOT care which bathroom anyone uses, but let me tell you I walked into the wrong one and the men freaked out. I was like oh ah sorry... But it is not like I have not seen a penis before and I am very sure I will see one again, so not biggie to me. The "biggie" is the children. Exposure at too young of an age to to many radical ideas is unhealthy for them, and EVERYONE should have NO problem protecting our future generations, even those who may never have children or want them know that if we work hard on keeping the up coming generations intelligent and compassionate then we will have a generation that treats its elders with the respect we want when we get there.
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eric k
I can't believe we make such a big deal out of this, if you were born a malw use the male bathroom if you were born with female anatomy use the proper bathroom.
I am shocked we would even think of letting someone that is not the right gender to use the opposite sex restroom. To many shady individuals out there. Anyone with a child under 18 will now have to accompany them to the bathroom just to be sure they are safe from a possible creep
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Jan
Well... here we are talking about a physical issue and a cultural issue. To wit, anyone who is physically male or female should physically just use that bathroom. Anyone who is culturally transgender should be able to join any group that traditionally accepted men or women, just not bathrooms. What is the big deal attending to your bodily functions with the people who have the same natural equipment? It is not a club, is it?
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Reverend Dave
In a home there is simply a bathroom. There typically is no gender assignment there. The old, Men's room/Ladies room thing may be outdated. Maybe we should do away with that and have just private stalls, like small private rest rooms with just a wash room, like a place to simply wash your hands and use a mirror after using such a restroom. No one should have much issue with share a room in which to wash their hands. Just a thought.
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M
In a home, you don't have strangers and strangers who may be perverts, using the same bathroom, and you usually don't have everybody in the family using the bathroom at the same time, one goes in, usually closes and or locks the door, does what they have to do and leaves and somebody else goes in afterwards, and they all takes turns, not so with public bathrooms, so you can't uses your analogy as it is not the same. I mean that is stupid, use your head.
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Reverend Dave
No need to be insulting. We're all in this together. Private bathrooms for all is basically my suggestion here. It would 32nd the debate. I don't understand why everyone is so worried about perverts in public restrooms anymore than anywhere else. I don't know the statistics, but from the headlines and stories I read, most attacks are not in public restrooms.
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M
the reason why is because there has already been at least five incidents in only a few months of this year and last year where this has been happening. and more has been going on in the long run from public bathrooms, and to say it isn't and doesn't happen it being naive. And people are getting so up set because other people like you are trying to insist on pushing their stupid archaic thinking on the rest of the world. All you perverted homo and freaks transgenders need to leave the rest of us alone, if you don't like the way things are, then change the way you are being, if you dont like it dont change the rest of the people, change yourselves. leave us alone.
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hsw
Hey Mary, you're fond of proof - could you post a link to even one article about such an incident - and it doesn't count if it's a link to a conservative blog.
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M
hsw, it is posted, I listed some, and just because the liberal media doesn't report on something that is upholding their liberal views doesn't mean it doesn't happen. you should know better then that by now. where have you've been?
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barysmirdworld
I AGREE WITH EVERYTHING MARY SAYS! TRUMP/HITLER 2016!
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Brother John
barysmirdworld…. a classic!! I don't think mary deserves any special treatment here. He/She chooses to continue filling white space with rambling nonsense. I browse some of her diatribes for amusement and sometimes wonder what % of the population she represents. There are people who do not let the voices in their heads control their fingers on a keyboard and push "Post Comment" before a thorough re-reading.
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hsw
Nope, at home you don't have strangers who may be perverts. You have family members and friends who may be perverts. Most children are molested by one or the other - family members or family friends. You're safer in a public restroom with pretty much anybody.
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Reverend Dave
Absolutely corect hsw. But there is no point you can make that a closed minded ignorant individual will accept unless it matches their own beliefs.
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Min Eric j. Freeman
This is truly sad the law itself is not the LGBT law its the restroom delegation statute. Where have we came in America can we just not agree it doesnt mean I hate you or Im a biggot it just means I disagree with the validate of said law. Anyone here with Pastor or Reverend or Minister pit pat in or after his name has to stand for something. We can not be opinionated but use sound bible doctrine to follow what does it say about stay at rest and let him deal with Just love on move on and let God touch it stop getting frusted check you fruits and love on him or them results may be different not a fight but a conversation
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Spiritual Healer Erma E Boyd
I think the problem with the stales thing is that perverts are going to look over or under them to get a peek at like kids. So basically every child under 18 would have to have a parent accompany them into the bathroom to protect them from some creep. It is sad but it is true. There are too many sickos in the world. I know at about 13 I started letting my kids use the restroom alone. Con you imaging letting your child go out on a date and getting a call from them to walk them into the bathroom! LOL! No really 3 types of bathrooms fit the bill. Male/Female/Gender Optional. Use yours or use a neutral one. Everyone makes a choice then and can not conplain if in the neutral one they run into a member of a different sex! Just sayin.
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Reverend Dave
When I say stall, I don't mean the kind of stalls like we typically see in public restrooms. I'm imagining actuall small stall size rooms, like a closet with a door that closes and locks like any other door. 28th a wash room being more like a hall with sinks in which to wash hands on one side and small private rooms with toilets.
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M
Rev Erma, that is not a stall, that is a individual small bathroom, so you might as will make a separate one for them, but instead of showing them that favor, and putting out that expense, why dont they just go into the bathrooms they were born for, it is their mental illness that tells them to be something they aren't so they need to deal with their mental illness themselves, not drag everybody else into it, it is not our problems, we don't get any benefits out of them, it is their problem, they need to solve it without dragging everybody else down, or they can choose to not be mentally ill. just because somebody has a mental illness does not mean the rest of the world needs to coddle them and live our lives to accommodate their illness. if it was something they cant help that is something different, but when it comes to something like these perverts, then that is not something that needs to be accommodated for. the idea is for helping disadvantaged people who by no faults of their own are accommodated, but freaks who choose to live as freaks don't need accommodating. They need to just make themselve be normal or shut up and stop whining and realize the problem is with them, and they need to feel uncomfortable to know they have a problem. people have pain to show them they have a problem that they need to get help for, and if they don't want the pain,t hey need to do something about it or live with the pain, well the same is with freaks like these.
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hsw
You know nothing about transgender, do you? How about this: you get out of this thread, go read something scientific that isn't a blog, and come back when you've educated yourself on what it means to be transgender. Then we might have some hope of intelligent discourse.
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M
ah, but i do understand about transgender people, i have studied them, i had them as "friends" and i also studied bout them in college classes, that being said, i still don't agree with them and their believes about how they perceive the world, that does not make you a hater, you can disagree with people and not be a hater. however because of all you and your types of pc people you can't conceive that anybody with a different way of thinking can be doing it for any other reasons other the the reason you perceive, which to you is hate, to me that means you have hate on the mind and you have the problem, if you and your type are so overly paranoid, that is your problem and you should not be imposing it on the rest of us. people have a right to think and feel the way they want without being bullied by all you into thinking like you. we have different experiences that gives us our beliefs and if our experience say that we know something more about a situation then somebody else does, that is valid and no amount of bullying by any of you are going to change that, and pushing you beliefs is just going to keep the the instilled believes established, and make an actual hate start to fester, so stop pushing yourself and your views onto others.
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Carol Amina
Thank you SueW!
I really think mary is coming from a place of fear and ignorance. My heart goes out to her because it must be horrible to live that way.
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William Waugh
So, let me get this straight! The historical evidence of the prevailing views, has society sitting down and sorting out gender identity crisis BEFORE figuring out marijuana is good for you? Astounding!!
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Tom
Chill, Mary! Be at peace. If you spend any amount of time in a public restroom checking on gender reality of others, then you are the problem, not them. Do your business and leave the room!
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M
you are not only very wrong, but very misguides, victimizing women in bathrooms have already been happening, and further more, how are you going to regulate this, have bathroom police, because how do people know that these freaks and perverts are not going into the bathrooms to use it or to be perverted, by what taking their wood for it? because it that is the case, then you can take my word for it that i am the queen of England because i identify as being the queen,so you need to address me now as Her Majesty.
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Brother John
Holy Crap, mary!!. ……"you can take my word for it that i am the queen of England because i identify as being the queen,so you need to address me now as Her Majesty." Many therapists would have a field day reading through your comments.
Amusing that you said "taking their wood for it" while ranting about sexual perversion in bathrooms. Freudian slip or more of your dark humour?
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M
Holy crap to you back, have you never heard of a typo, do you think that no body else here has made typo's, that is the most perfect example of a Satanist, thinking you are so perfect above anybody and everybody else.
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M
oh, and btw, dont tell me or anybody to chill because we are tired of that kind of bullying, and we aren't going to chill. it is this type of bullying why we are so upset, we are tired of a bunch of perverted minorities calling the shot over the rest of us who has common sense. oh and here's another heads up, i listened to a person yesterday who said his wife was chased out of public bathroom by a man who said he wanted to use the bathroom and they had to leave, he said he was a woman, then he went out got his woman, and they went in there and they had sex in the bathroom and no body could do anything about it, while they were in there screwing in the bathroom people had to piss their pant or something, and i take care of a handicapped person and i know that many of them cant hold their bladder very long, and you think that i acceptable behavior, and should be allowed, the rest of us don't. so you lay off.
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hsw
Wow - it's unusual that something like that wouldn't make the news anywhere, since what they were doing is actually illegal. I think you're listening to someone who is listening to the voices in their head.
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M
no, not only is it now in their heads, it was at a public store, where they not only have witnesses, but video tapes of it, it really did happen. but with people like you fucking up all of our laws it is allowing these thing to happen. I hope all of you are happy because this will be happening more and more now.
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hsw
Video tapes? Those still exist? But seriously, can we see a recording please?
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M
video tapes do not exist everywhere, and i don't think they put them in bathrooms, as that would be an invasion of Privacy, but according to you and your guys's thinking, i guess privacy doesn't exist.
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hsw
If you google that story in any iteration of its parts, what you get is a page full of porn links. Just sayin'
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M
you don't know what you are talking about, because no body googled it, and it does sound like a porn thing but that does not mean it did not happen, many freaks like to watch porn and do what they have seen from it but this law allows these types of pervs to get do these types of things. thanks to pervs like you. who are allowing it to come about.
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hsw
No what says it didn't happen is that there is absolutely nothing written about it, anywhere. That's not the kind of thing, especially in this atmosphere, that would have gone unreported. Unless you'd like to post a link. And no the law doesn't allow people to have sex in public restrooms, but keep reading those blogs.
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hsw
And just so I'm clear about how you think I should be living my life, why is it that you call me (along with half the known world) a "perv"?
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Peter
Simple request, Mary...just post a link showing where one of these incidents that you claim have occurred. Just one!
We'll be waiting, although I suspect you'll just respond with something insulting, as usual.
I believe, Mary, that your behaviour simply indicates trolling on your part, as I really can't believe you mean the vitriol you spew.
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hsw
GIven the lack of grammar and punctuations skills and failure to actually address any issues, I think Mary is a bot.
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Carol Amina
As I have been reading Mary's posts, and the reactions to them it reminds me of the way the Right wing media works. There are bits and snips of things that are about some current provocative event. Then the name calling, slander and excessive fear tactics come in. Soon people's blood is boiling and words are flying...things get way off topic and it blows up!
I think your right Peter! She is trolling and doing a mighty fine job of distracting us from the issues at hand. Weather for or agents separate bathrooms we have all been focusing and reacting to "mary" and giving her attention.
I worked with special needs kids for close to 25 years. I learned that all bad behavior was as a result of unmet needs. Some people just don't know how to get those needs met in a way that others can hear or meet.
I'm open to here reasonable comments on this issue. I understand that gay and transgender issues go agents the basic beliefs of some. They have a right to those feelings as much as I have a right to my acceptance of gays and tran folks. But we live in a country that has laws that are more geared toward inclusion and freedom than exclusion and oppression. And as we have grown, in pain staking ways with lives being lost here on our own soil we have managed to become a county that others still die trying to come live into. Because we are a wonderful country to live in!
I'm sad to think that the cancer of hate, bigotry and narrow mindedness could ever rise above what most of us want freedom. The right to worship or not worship in the way that fits best for each of us as an individual.
I'm sorry for the long post, and for getting on this soap box. But I'm weary of the hatfullness and anger I feel from this topic.
Peace and Blessings to all....weather you agree or not with me I send you Love.
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M
rape victims don't want the victimization to continue, they have rights that needs to be recognized, too. http://www.ijreview.com/2015/12/483296-rape-survivor-reveals-why-shes-got-a-problem-with-transgender-bathrooms/
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hsw
Why yes, yes we do, but you have no right to address that issue unless you're a rape victim, because you have no clue what we think or how we feel.
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M
First of all, Yes I do and don't look for gift horses when one is offered, if a person helps your cause, don't stop them, secondly, you don't know if I or somebody I know have been raped or not. so what right do you have to tell a person they can't talk on that about a subject. A person does not have to be raped to know about and speak out against people being raped, so stop over reacting and get a chip off your shoulder. Because last I saw we still have freedom of speech in this country.
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M
https://autogynephiliatruth.wordpress.com/2015/11/04/the-threat-to-women-and-girls-presented-by-transgender-bathroom-bills/
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M
And Homosexuals don't rape others of the ooposite sex either, right? well that is a lie. http://crimefeed.com/2016/03/trans-woman-raped-inside-bathroom-historic-stonewall-inn/
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hsw
Didja notice there was absolutely no mention of the rapist being homosexual?
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M
the report said it happened in a homosexual bar, and the person was in drag, what else would a straight person be doing in a homosexual bar if they were straight, and no body is saying that all transgender is a homosexual are they, so if they aren't then why does it even affect the homosexual community for them to even get involved, and there are many homosexuals who are also bi, and they can and do rape just the same, just because the media does not report it, doe not mean it does not happen. I mean stop for once an reason things out.
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Brother John
Get it on, Your Majesty!! WhooHooo!! This collection of drivel could be used in a thesis on Trolling (or on a darker note mental instability) I hope it's just mindless trolling.
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M
it is just demonstrating how people can say anything, dont you understand that by now. you can't believe everything those bathroom trolls who say they want to go into the bathrooms just to get their perverted jollies off, so if you can't understand that, then maybe you are the one who needs the mental help, anybody who does not understand sarcasm used to demonstrate there their is not proof that a person is a harmless transgender or a perv. and I think anybody who does not understand sarcasm has to need help, i mean lighten up.
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M
you know what John, you and all your kind can make like your hermaphrodites and screw yourselves.
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M
Doesn't happen, huh, what do you call this? https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/sexual-predator-jailed-after-claiming-to-be-transgender-in-order-to-assault
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hsw
I call that two years ago and having absolutely nothing to do with changes in the law, which is the issue everyone is discussing. The issue has been that changes in the laws will cause these things to happen. Restrictions won't prevent them from happening (obviously) and lessening restrictions won't cause it to happen.
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M
And it is okay with you that traumatized women and girls everywhere have to feel victimized all over again because freaks want to act like something they aren't. that is just wrong.
Home Viral Another “Transgender” Pervert Scars Young Girls For Life, Now Rape Victims Have... Viral Another “Transgender” Pervert Scars Young Girls For Life, Now Rape Victims Have Just One Question… By Lindsey Bruce - April 26, 2016 5985 0
2.3k A perverted man recently entered a women’s locker room at Evan’s pool in Seattle and stripped down naked in front of a young girl’s swim team. He wasn’t dressed as a woman, nor was he wearing a wig or make up. He just simply exposed himself to those young girls without a second thought, and when he was confronted about his actions he simply said,
“The law has changed and I have a right to be here.”
When Seattle Parks spokesman David Takami was asked about the incident, he didn’t defend the young girls who are now probably scarred for life, Takami instead defended the “transgender” man saying, “We have guidelines that allow transgender individuals to use restrooms and locker rooms consistent with their gender identity.”
“We want everyone to feel comfortable in our facilities.”
We are seeing cases like this become more common as the country moves further left, but anyone who calls attention to incidents like this is labeled a “bigot”.
But what about the young women who are at the other end of the spectrum? What about the rape victims who have entered a bathroom thinking it would be a safe place only to find a man waiting to attack?
Rape victims across America are now speaking out and they have one question that should not be ignored.
Why do liberals feel that it is okay to force the 20% of American women who are sexual assault victims to relive that trauma just to appease 0.3% of the population?
Only 0.3% of the population identifies as “transgender”, yet 1 in 5 women in America are victims of sexual assault. Even worse, one in four girls will be sexually abused before they turn 18 years old.
Gretchen Flores was a victim of locker room rape. “I use to get cramps in my legs when I would swim and he would tell me to come up with him,” Flores said. “He would start at the base of my leg and move up farther than he should have.”
There are millions of woman just like Gretchen Flores who will now be forced to undress, shower, and use the restroom with men. Every time they enter a locker room, they will be reminded of the last time they were in such a vulnerable place and fear that the worst could happen again.
Isn’t it funny that liberals demand “safe spaces”to protect them from harsh words, but expecting a safe space for a rape victim is considered “bigoted”?
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hsw
If the shoe fits, wear it. By the way, I still haven't see a link to the story you originally told about the man's wife being chased out of a restroom and the couple having sex while other people waited - still waiting.
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M
that is because it was not on the news, it was an eyewitness report, it did not make the news. Told verbally. The person swore to God it was the truth.
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hsw
Well that definitely confirms it. Because people who "sweat to God" never lie.
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M
now stop being an idiot, unless you can't help yourself, which must be the case as you obviously can't see that to have co ed bathrooms allows for abuses and it is going to be the women and the girls who will most likely be abused, but hey, you don't care, it won't happen to you. will it. what a stupid mentality.
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hsw
OK here's another thing I'd love to see - you, getting through an entire comment without resorting to name-calling. I'd ask for fact-checking, but we've already established that that would be an unreasonable expectation.
I do have one question though before I bail on this, as fun as it's been - do you consider yourself a Christian? I'm just asking because the only way you'd bring someone to Christ is if you tied them up and dragged them - it definitely wouldn't be by your shining example.
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M
well, HSW, not only had I been for the most part trying to get you people to understand your flawed thinking on this matter without calling names until just a little bit ago, I think I can say the same to all of you, who insists that just because other people have another point of view and belief that it automatically means they are bigots or some how prejudices, that is bullying, why do you people think you have that right, to call others bigots and other names of such and bully us with pc which in itself is evil and what Hitler did in fascistic Germany before Nazism, and we are supposed to take that off of you people but we are not supposed to tell all of you how mental you are? PLS give me a break, I was being kind considering what you really deserve and what I really could had said. If you don't like it, the stop being that way. Just like if you people don't like society to not approve of what you are doing and you don't want to stop doing it, then keep it quiet. we don't need to know that, and all of you have no right expecting us to like it.You do not have a constitutional right to have all people like and accept you and what you do esp if you don't want to extend the same rights to others, like Christians and christian's beliefs. Christians also have the rights to have their believe and not be persecuted for it. so stop being irrational hypocrites.
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M
HWS, as i said to you earlier, you have no right to complain about name calling as you and people like you are hypocrites. you don't like what you hear yet you call other hateful, and bigots, racists or any other number of labels. you say you don't want names called but you seem to always call others names, and label them, you even judge them, yet you want others to think you are high and mighty, holier then thou. that is a laugh. everybody has a right to say whatever they want to say, and you have the right to be offended, but you and your kinds have no right to try to bully others, that is infringing on others freedoms and rights, and that is censorship. censorship is not legal. if you don't like what you hear, don't listen, better yet, don't give others any reason to say such things.
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M
https://www.facebook.com/linda.hopkins.9465/posts/10206237721214428?from_close_friend=1¬if_t=close_friend_activity¬if_id=1461997774440567
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M
https://www.facebook.com/Capitalists/photos/a.226491315514.290842.188355460514/10156927046055515/?type=3&theater
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hsw
OK I get it now. There's a contest to use the most words without actually responding to anything. So you win that contest but you lost the challenge. It must be horrible to go through life so angry. I'm going to go find someone to talk with who knows how to have a conversation. That thing where ideas are exchanged and where conscious thought happens before responding. It's not fair to engage the unarmed. Peace.
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Brother John
SueW… if you're relatively new to this forum, mary aka marysbirdworld often fills a significant amount of white space with her ramblings. This seems to be particularly true if the topic has anything to do with sex. Fortunately it's easy to scroll on by as there are some interesting and informed posters here.
I just scrolled down to the last comment and counted 84 for mary. But comments aren't closed and we may see her break the 100 mark if enough people keep replying to her.
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M
you know you are being just as Satanic as everybody else now about trying to pick on people who express their free speech. I expected better from you John. But sadly you are not better then any of the other Satanist on here.
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cmdsgtmajor
You don't need three bathrooms, just put a sign on the door that shows both sexes and a lock on the inside of the door. I have noticed that my doctors office and dentists and other places I go have this and so far I have heard of no problems. It is a pretty simple fix and you can now stop all this rhetoric.
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M
that would only work for small amount of people, but if you have a movie theater, a one room bathroom for both sexes and a run on the bathroom by dozens of people at the same time will create quite a problem, and then men are so dirty, they piss all over everything, even the sides of the toilets, and the back and sides of the walls, women don't want to go into a bathroom that are too pissy. maybe you don't care mothers don't want their kids in that either, esp since some people don't wash or don't wash very will and they then will be opening doors, and touching the door knobs and stuff. you don't have any right make expect others to deal with that. what you do in you own home or your business and what you want to clean up is one thing but dont expect other to put up with it.
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Donna
I believe we should have individual toilet rooms with locks on the door with both male and female uses. I have worked as a probation officer in the child molestation unit, and I found public bathrooms are main places molesters target children, and even grown adults have been raped. They wait for young children to enter bathrooms alone and then attack them. I always take my younger boys and girls into the bathroom with me and never leave them unsupervised. Now, I have nothing against transgender adults or children, but knowing who is in the restroom for legitimate reasons is impossible to know especially if their identity is masked. I still have a sense of modesty and hope for privacy when I use the restroom, and it has nothing to do with someone else's life style choices!
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Rev. Wayne Gibbons
The Lord works in mysterious ways. He created many wonderful animals, birds, lizards, fish, lions and tigers and bears, oh my, and also created many beautiful and diverse humans. A wonderful mix of all kinds of life. Perhaps God wanted all his creation to be harmonious but knew there would be strife between his children. As humans, we have many issues that divide and separate us. I believe it is the Native American people who have a belief that there are man, woman and a third sex. These third sex individuals are not vilified by the Native people but are regarded as special folk. I have only read a tiny bit of this subject and will look for more information so I can comment in a more informed fashion. Transgender people should be able to live and function without being discriminated against. In other words, 'Love on another as I have loved you' and 'Do unto others as you would have done to you' I believe in Europe some countries have unisex bathrooms. Perhaps this could be arranged here. It may be a solution but it has to be left to those who can move in that direction. As for me, I pray we find common ground on a very sensitive subject. Pray for God's guidance and love.
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Danny
I am so lost when I read so many things about this issue we're supposed to be ministers and ordained ministers which means we should be standing up for the word of God the word of God is very clear and disciple on what the issues are attacking one another's beliefs values doesn't make us right doesn't make the strong the word of God stands for what in Rome and that is what we should believe in and that is what we should be staying in for we should be standing for what the spirit calls us to do and God's word is very clear on where this subject Les God created Adam and Eve he did not create Adam Eve and someone else so if we believe in the word of God then we have to believe that this issue is destroying America is destroying the values of the very things that each one of us should be standing and fighting against so what swear to God I believe this is clear God created man and woman so man should not be in a woman's restroom in a woman should not be in the men's restroom with the living according to God's values in the Bible even clear that this issue once before came up and God destroyed them
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Minister Mishale Stairs
So those who have an issue what is your proposal have people strip before entering the bathroom. A transgender female will NOT have a beard and by all means will look as they identify. A transgender male will likely have a beard. This issue isn't about trumping rights it is about equal rights. I as a transgender female myself should not have to risk being murdered for what I believe and feel plenty of proof for exists is a matter of scientific and biblically proven normality. The fear mongering is purely based off of irrational misunderstanding created by propaganda. Lastly the issue of your children is irrelevant in a bathroom as I'm a single parent I get fearing for children. However if you are in there with your child you will know of any perverse attempts and on that as well we are not pedophiles any more and so far seemingly less than cis people. Our fear of getting hurt and or losing our rights will not allow a transgender person to pull the stunts being spread as suggestive fear. Lastly this fear mongering has caused short haired women to end up in cuffs because unstable trans hunters (play on witch hunters) have called the police calling them men even an instance of a poor woman with hirutism was reported to her shame. So you mind your own business in the bathroom and stop perversely thinking about others genitals and move on.
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Rev. D H Zielinski
Up until now...How many of you have ever looked under a stall in a restroom to see who or what is using that stall? How many of you have ever stopped anyone in a restroom and asked them if they are LGBT? How many of you have ever stopped anyone from using the restroom that you were about to enter? You ladies, how many of you, until now, have even had an idea in your head when you went to the restroom that, "Wow, I wonder if the lady who just came in the room is really a man ?" Gentlemen, how many of you have been at the urinal an asked yourself, "Is the guy standing next to me really a woman?".
Come on, seriously. Until the Supreme Court made it legal for LG individuals to marry, this was NEVER an issue. No one ever had to hire "Potty Police" to check you before you enter a restroom, or ask for your birth certificate to check your gender. This is totally ridiculous! My good people, it's time to stop this harassment. This is exactly why so many individuals have left their original churches and joined us here at ULC. We came together to revel in the freedom of our own beliefs, and not to deny others such freedom. For LGBT individuals, this is a question of religious freedom as well. There are some "religions" that are trying desperately to deny these people of the right to worship their creation in the way they see fit. This must persecution must stop. We must stand up for the rights of these people, since we ourselves have been persecuted for our beliefs, we must stand up for their beliefs as well.
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John Owens
There are two genders. There are not three. There is nothing in between. There has never been anything in between. When God said, " Let US make mankind in OUR image," there were TWO members of the God-head, not three, not seven. God made male and female. We have two eyes, two legs, two lungs, two ovaries OR two testicles. He didn't make three. If a human has three of something they are deformed. There is NO THIRD GENDER, and you do NOT have the right to choose your gender. That is dictated by chromosomes. Trying to choose something else is stupid. If you want to PRETEND to be something else, ADMIT YOU ARE PLAYING PRETEND. The legislation at certain locations limiting bathroom use to that which corresponds with one's birth certificate does not TARGET anyone. It seeks to return equilibrium to an unsteady society. The use of separate public facilities for males and females is functional and done that way for the comfort of the females and the efficiency of the males. Men dressing as women can squat and use a stall like a woman or they can stand and whiz like a man. If they look so feminine no one knows they are men, they can go to the women's room and squat like a woman. This whole flap is BS, a false flag, a smokescreen. It has gone about as far as it is going to go. 3% of a population is not enough to merit changing the whole world. CHANGING it targets the 97%, and a large portion of that 97% are NOT going to tolerate it. If people want to torture themselves, or degrade themselves, or destroy themselves, THAT IS THEIR BUSINESS, but remaking everyone else to make them feel NORMAL, is NOT going to happen. ENOUGH with the social experimentation. Do what you want in your own home. DO NOT expect everyone else to go along with it. It will be very hot in another month or two, and tempers are really going to flare. Most of you do not even believe in the death penalty for the most vicious of murderers. Do you believe this stupid BS bathroom thing is worth anyone dying? It's going to happen, and it's the left's fault. No one was fighting over bathrooms until this came up. Do you think the left actually cares that people --TRANSGENDERS (whatever that is), PRETEND TRANSGENDERS, will be dying over this. The left won't care, they don't care. They pretend to care. Leave the bathrooms as they have been for so long, and stop pretending to be something you are not. Remember what Solomon said, "Strive not with a man without cause, if he hath done thee no harm." In Redneck, that translates to, "Don't start no trouble, and there won't be none." Keep making trouble, and you will find more than you want.
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Minister Mishale Stairs
How about the fact my chromosomes are Xxy making me a third gender.
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John Owens
That would make you exceptional, but not a third gender. A mutation, perhaps, but not a significant factor, population-wise.
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M
it isn't, that kind of thing only happens in chickens, and they would be sterile but humans chromosomes don't work like that and if they did, the person usually has tings like down syndrome, a disability, are you disabled, if so it is a mental disability, and that is why we say it is a mental condition as the gene mapping has been done and there is not gene for homosexuality, or for transgender. you just want to try to manipulate circumstances to justify why you dont want to discipline your mind to be what you were born to be. that is no different the the muslims who don't want to discipline their minds to keep their horse in the barn.
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JG
Well said, Sir. God be with you.
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John Owens
Thank you, Pius
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Minister Mishale Stairs
I still fall under the umbrella term transgender and I was born both which puts me in the middle if you aren't officially gender one nor gender two you are gender option three. Now to add on to my point which bathroom should the potty police send me to.
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John Owens
NOW you play the hermaphrodite card. That is a totally separate issue, even though it is related. Just because you are, that does not mean you should be a jerk(or jerkette).
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Minister Mishale Stairs
You are accurate the Sioux had a process for transitions. Also our knowledge on hormones tells us the glorified eunuchs needed replacement hormones after castration and since phyto estrogen is easily accessible that would be the only option in those days. Making glorified eunuchs transgender. The bible says some are born eunuchs some were made that way by man and some chose to be eunuchs for the glory of God and to receive the full blessings of heaven they must follow this calling. Much like homosexual didn't exist in the bible until less than a hundred years ago quite obviously there was no such word as transgender.
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Br. Scott
Time for porta John's outside every building
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retired at a young age from Catholicism
I wish this statement by our church were true: "For the most part, our laws do a good job of protecting people from discrimination in the United States; it’s illegal to discriminate against someone based on their sex, religion, race, or sexual orientation."
The above statement is true in California and in most northern states, however, in Texas and most bible belt states it is completely legal to deny housing and employment based on sexual orientation. In 2016 it is even worse than that. In some states it is legal to evict a tenant and to fire an employee (or both) merely for what the landlord/employer PERCEIVES as a person's sexual orientation; no proof is needed. It is legal to evict and fire any tenant/employee because of MERE SUSPICION of a sexual orientation that the landlord/employer finds distasteful. There is no federal law nor any state law preventing this in Texas nor most of the American south.
In the 1980s I worked for a telephone company that had service in the six New England states and in NY State. At that time, some of those states then had laws preventing discrimination in employment on the basis of sexual orientation and some of those states had no such law. The telephone company then proudly issued a document to all employees stating that company policy was not to discriminate in employment on the basis of sexual orientation EXCEPT IN THOSE STATES WHERE IT WAS LEGAL TO DO SO. That policy was totally worthless.
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John Owens
While I don't think people should be evicted over their choice of masturbation-partners ( it isn't sex if it isn't male organ penetrating female organ, it's something else), I don't think any of this has to do with the public bathroom issue.
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hsw
Does the mouth count as an organ? Just want to make sure we're all having actual sex as you define it.
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John Owens
Your pretext is ridiculous. The mouth IS an organ, as is the skin, the tongue. The mouth is not a sex organ. Sex deals with procreation. The mouth can be used to stimulate arousal and orgasm, but has nothing to do with real sex. That would also be true of many practices, as in those of same-gender couples and pedophiles. The left comes up with something stupid to do, THEN tries to make up intelligent reasons for doing stupid things. Then want to get into juvenile arguments about how their stupid thing should be done, all the while pretending they are the smart ones. How moronic and childish.
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Peter
John, are you and 'Mary' one and the same? Both of you resort to insults to try to make a point and really say nothing in the process. If you want to be morally outraged, shout, and vent, go to it, but there is no need to attack others. That said, I'm out of here. Life's too short to drink bad wine...
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hsw
So Bill Clinton really didn't have sex with Monica Lewinsky? That means in your view he was actually telling the truth? Cool. I'm sorry, trying to define sex as only procreation redefines whatever it is that people after menopause or infertile couples do as somehow "less than" your standard. That better fits the definition of moronic and childish. Your narrowly limited world view is, thankfully, not the universal world view.
I'm pretty sure no political party invented all the ways loving couples can enjoy each other - that would be something that comes from nature.
It is your pretext that is ridiculous.
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John Owens
Peter and hsw, there you go again. Grow up just a little bit. Please. Your kind of arguments belong on a teenage social site.
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hsw
And you, sir, are no Ronald Reagan. Give it up. I'm perfectly capable of having an adult conversation with someone who wants to have a conversation. What you want to have is a monologue, and it's just not worth the energy when it would be a pointless exercise.
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John Owens
hsw, when you SHOW that you are capable, if you wish, we can have a conversation. If you can possibly be civil and and sensible, please try. If your opinion has any validity, I would encourage you to strive for clarity and elucidation, rather than engaging in juvenile name-calling and mud-slinging. I have not called names or spoken derogatorily about people. I will call their motivations, actions, and tactics into question. After careful analysis of the dialogue here, it appears that I have been the bigger man so far, by far. That's not because I'm so big (in character), but because you have behaved like such a tiny person.
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Brother John
I'll call you on your claim that you haven't used derogatory name calling on this site, John Owens. (May 5, 7:41 am post) Your ridiculous claims are tiresome and often laughable. Here's the challenge….
If I can't demonstrate that you've used any name calling or derogatory terms as you've claimed here…. I will pay you $1000.
If I can find instances of this on your part, you will pay me $100 for each one I find (and post for verification). As you clearly claim innocence here (and in other posts) this should be an easy decision for you, unless this is, in fact, a lie.
Without doing any research (I haven't read many of your posts), I estimate my winnings at over $2000 and will be donating it to a couple of the charities I support. I will have you make the donations directly to the charities and post the confirmations here for all to see. Sound fair?
Here's the definition of derogatory… Are you OK with it?
"Something that's derogatory is insulting or disrespectful. If you make derogatory comments, that means you say things that are unflattering, unkind, or demeaning. Derogatory means about the same as insulting. Derogatory language is meant to hurt, and it usually does. If you feel offended or insulted by what someone says, the person probably said something derogatory. Racial, sexist, and homophobic slurs are all derogatory. Insults that mean someone is stupid or crazy are derogatory. Making a joke about someone's mother is derogatory."
Let's see if you're really the BIG MAN you claim to be or just another blowhard… Do You Accept This Challenge? Just a head's up… this is not the time to be whimpering that "other people" do the same thing. You're the one claiming high ground as the intelligent, adult, non-leftie/commie, moral superior to some of us.
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John Owens
Brother John, you are awfully brave and aggressive from your keyboard. I wrote in conciliatory language yesterday. I move in a world where people don't just keep trying to start trouble when there is no reason for it. Solomon wrote this (KJV) "Strive not with a man without cause, if he hath done thee no harm."
I will say, there is nothing MANLY about yaa-yaaing on a blog, particularly when some people have nothing better to do, and others do. It makes all parties involved look foolish. -
Brother John
May I assume that you aren't willing to put your money where your mouth/fingers are then, John? It wasn't brave at all as I'm certain my charities would reap a rich bounty from this thread alone, let alone the rest of the site, were you to accept my challenge.
Perhaps you had an epiphany of sorts yesterday (maybe while considering the challenge) and actually did morph into the "world where people don’t just keep trying to start trouble when there is no reason for it." You surely hadn't been there before yesterday with the undeniable flow of insults and playground language you'd been using. Re-read the definition of "derogatory" to determine who's been "yahh-yahhing" and looking foolish. I'm not the one who's been compared to mary, my friend.
Challenging and exposing untruths, bigotry, ignorance, racism, cruelty, etc. is not causing trouble where there is none. It's a cure for the apathy and ignorance that allows evil to exist and spread.
I have immense respect and admiration for Martin Luther King who said, "He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it."
Assuming this means we won't be reading any further derogatory remarks from you, I, for one, will welcome the change. I trust that you won't find a sharp reminder out of place if you occasionally backslide to your old ways.
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Brother John
As you've vowed to be more civil and mature on this site, John Owens, in addition to your frequent derogatory remarks and insults, you are often condescending in your replies to others. Maybe you could work on that as well.
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John Owens
Sigh. Ok, Brother John. I was rather enjoying telling you the difference between the teachings of the scriptures and "mainstream Christianity", but you seem to prefer the yaa-yaa stuff. I don't have time today. Maybe another time.
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John Owens
Brother John, did you not read anything I wrote yesterday? Some of it was in response to you. Please stop trying to start arguments.
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Brother John
I'm not here to start arguments. This is a discussion forum open to everyone from Christians to Atheists to Pagans, so there is bound to be disagreement, arguments and controversy. Those who simply want their beliefs verified and agreement by fellow believers can easily find any number of sites and forums to accomplish this purpose.
Asking for clarification, proof or evidence of claims made on this forum is one of it's principle purposes.
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BJ
I guess it turns out Clinton really did not "have sex with that woman".
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John Owens
No. He masturbated with her. No less disturbing, but not the same thing.
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Jay
I also noticed that falsehood in the article. Thank you for pointing it out here.
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Min Eric j. Freeman
Can someone please tell me the difference between a transgender and a transvestite because a I truly do not know. Probably help with people understanding the difficulties of transition. Not at all being funny if anyone would like to explain
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hsw
A transvestite is someone who dresses in what would conventionally worn by the opposite gender, and acts in that manner. This has nothing to do with sexuality.
Transgender is the term given to someone whose gender identity does not match up with their assigned sex.
This came from a Google search for good, simple definitions, and is by no means inclusive of all that has been discussed on this topic, but it's a good start.
Bottom line - transvestites generally have no desire to "be" the opposite sex - they just like to dress as the opposite sex. Transgender folks very often "know" from a young age that the gender they feel inside is not the gender of the body they were born in.
I'm not sure exactly what you refer to with the "difficulties of transition," as there are many, but one of the most difficult, for those who intend to have reassignment surgery, is that they are nearly always required to live as the opposite sex for a minimum of a year before having the surgery. This leaves them in a bit of limbo, as they are still physically the sex they were born to, but must and do live and dress as the opposite sex.
As I only have the experience from the point of view of a friend, I cannot definitely speak to all of the difficulties, but that part I have witnessed.
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Barry
As we all, being here on this physical plain and having very earthly human brains, thoughts. I am very open minded and clear on what is and isn't on this earth and what may or may not be. Now I agree that no one individual should be discriminated against, bullied, ashamed of who they are and whom they have to live with. They have to live with themselves physically and mentally. Nothing can change that. So peace be within all. Now again I'm a realist and speak very clearly without clouding my thoughts and views. As we see across the board with all living creatures. There's a male and female side. This goes for 99% of all living things anyways. That is fact and for a reason. We have separate bathrooms for a reason. We have separate locker rooms for a reason. We try as we learn thru the ages to become and I'm sorry but can only think of the saying "morally sound," to be less barbarian in nature as we can. This makes it hard to not have, with all the different aspects, subjects being thrown out on the table to keep things balanced and fair, for all. With shared bathrooms; absolutely comes the threat of those without good intentions
As we have seen for all time on this earth. The quickiest way to do harm, bad deeds, is to blend in. Become the teacher, the cop, the pastor, the caretaker and so forth. This puts a dark cloud over all the rest who do what they do only for the good of others. This will happen. When we allow one thing, then it opens the door to another things that at one point we were appalled to even think about, let alone put on the table for discussion. It becomes a slippery slope and to keep the balance is no longer a possibility. Separate bathrooms, not because of a handicapped like idea but a sex based kind of idea. A trying to keep some sort of moral balance. Were is the line drawn? I do to have all the answers and only give a piece of what I have at this time.
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aaaaa
Celebrating mental illness and trying to legally invite sexual predators into restrooms is one of the most ignorant things ever.
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JG
Here here! I could not agree more.
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JG
They are not "transgendered", they are ill and need treatment. Just like any other mental disorder or physical ailment, we do not separate them because of their disease, we encourage them to seek treatment to cure their ailment. Take the similar mental disorder of schizophrenia for example. Does the public encourage them to "embrace their disease"? No, of course not, as that does not benefit the person. We encourage them to seek treatment, as this is the morally correct course of action. So it is with the disorders of those claiming to be "transgendered". They need treatment, they are ill, and simply letting them bask in their disease not only does not help them, by doing so the public does that man or woman a grave disservice, as well.
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Carol Amina
I want to be kind and loving but Pius X just dished the biggest load of crap I've read so far on this subject! Pius beats mary and John Owens with this one.
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Tracy
Yes Carol, that was the worst of the worst. Apparently mental health issues runs the deepest with Pious X. He wins a copy of the DSM 5.
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John Owens
Geez, Carol, how did I get lumped with anyone else here? Never mind. I know. Anyone who disagrees with the utopian ideals HAS to be lumped together as anti- something. My grammar and orthography are better than average, and I try to keep my discourse civil and avoid name-calling. Fanaticism and damnation are not part of my repertoire. Still you lump me with others. I hope you consider yourself very open-minded and not prejudicial.
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Brother John
Hmmmm… So your guess is that you've been compared to mary because you disagree with utopian ideas, John? You're probably on the right track with the civil discourse and name-calling, but have grossly overestimated your ability to keep them in check. I'm not sure the comparison is accurate though. Because of your grammar and orthography you've often seemed more rude and condescending rather than unstable and incoherent. However, I find condescendence more offensive than name calling as it can't be excused as ignorance.
I realize that you've claimed to have seen the light and changed your ways since writing this, and hope that's true, but want you to realize that it wasn't just one person who found your comments rude and condescending. I hope to participate in meaningful, adult discussions that include you in the future.
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John Owens
Brother John, Even on my very best behavior I tend to be slightly condescending. That is an unintentional character flaw. It becomes intentional when I am dealing with snide remarks made by people who think because they have chosen a particular point of view, they have somehow achieved intellectual superiority by osmosis or association. I tend to condescend with them, because their naiveté seems like that of a small child who starts telling an adult how things are. I can easily see how irksome that might be to someone who considers themselves learned or sophisticated. I will try to edit my posts before I actually post them, because the goal of communication is, after all, to communicate, and not to irritate. If my written mannerisms are irksome, even if my reasoning is invincible, no one would understand or accept it because of it being presented in an offensive manner.
I am a little bit old, old-fashioned, and slightly set in my ways, but I am determined to never get too old to learn, especially to learn to be more kind. It is my unshakeable belief that being kind is more to be desired than to be smart or educated. It would be nice to be all three, but kindness is a trait more desirable than the other two, n'est pas?-
Brother John
I hope that we're able to participate in a civil discussion, John Owens. Might you be able to categorize your beliefs? A few of your latest posts did not indicate either Christian fundamentalist or evangelical overtones, but you often refer to the Bible. In an attempt to minimize misunderstandings, here's my attempt to present my beliefs in a concise form so that we may better understand one another. I'm an atheist meaning…. I do not believe in deities ( a natural or supernatural being, which is thought of as holy, divine, or sacred) as there is no evidence to support these beliefs. This includes the God of the Bible and the story of Jesus which is more mythological than it is factual and historical. I have no issues about what people's personal beliefs are, but object when they are presented as facts and the absolute truth.
I believe there are dimensions beyond the three that determine our perception of reality, or Space and Time. As humans, our Reality is constrained by the perception of Past, Present and Future. The many attempts to explain what's beyond these constraints (God for example) fall far short of the mark.
I'm disappointed that you chose not to rise to the defence of Moses (and God) in a different post in this thread and am hoping you will… it's the one about the contradiction between the kind, merciful and loving God you sited versus the vengeful, angry, homicidal monster that's chronicled in the OT.
Instead, or in addition to that, how about responding to my May 26 post below as you agreed that csrsport's post was "biblically correct". I'm sincerely interested in your view as it's seems you are far from an evangelical Christian based on some of your latest posts. I would also be interested in the response of evangelical, fundamentalist Christians as it relates directly to core Christian beliefs, which I find confused and irrational.
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John Owens
I will try first to address the two disparate personalities of the "vengeful, angry, homicidal monster that’s chronicled in the OT" and the "kind, merciful and loving God" as you put it. I don't know if I can do an adequate job of it here, in this forum, but maybe a little at a time.
First of all, I have to say that the majority of "Christians" view Yeshua, or Jesus, as the Son of the Creator-- at birth, half human, half divine. As I may have mentioned, in the first chapter of John, John wrote, (and I'm quoting from memory here) " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made. (Olde English a little peculiar here)...The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory." One can continue reading, but it is clear that John is speaking of Jesus or Joshua, Yeshua, being the Word. My point being, that the Being who BECAME Jesus, who entered Mary's womb as she was ovulating and became centered in that ovum to grow into a human, had existed before the creation of the Earth, Stars, the Cosmos.
For me, this is further explained in Hebrews 1 (presumably by Paul, as he has been credited with that epistle) which reads, (again from memory, so don't fault me if I miss a word) "God, who at various times and in diverse manners spake by the mouth of His holy prophets,... hath in these latter days revealed Himself by His Son, BY WHOM ALSO HE MADE THE WORLDS (emphasis mine) ...Who being the express image of his person(This is of particular note, since it is slightly obscured by the archaic English. The meaning as I have been told by those who are knowledgeable in Greek koine is more like "an exact duplicate, or likeness [CLONE, if you prefer}), and upholding all things by the word of his power (It is the SON who upholds all things) , when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;"
The rest can all be read, of course, and I think should be, but it shows a huge hole in common Christian thought--that the Son was relatively late on the scene and only came to be a sacrifice and to teach us to be sweet and kind and obedient to whomever and make us good subjects for the kings and the priests and cardinals. For some reason, people cannot understand what Jesus meant when He said, "Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and He saw it, and was glad." People at the time said, " You are not yet 40, and yet you say you knew Abraham." He replied, " Verily, before Abraham was, I AM."
He didn't say, I WAS, or I USED TO BE, but I AM. That is what the God in the burning bush told Moses, when Moses asked Him, "Whom shall I say sent me?" God answered, "I AM that I AM...tell them I AM hath sent you."
I realize you probably think all of this is myth or fantasy, but even if that proves to be so, the story told by the scriptures has only a vague resemblance to that taught by most of Christianity.
I have to break it off for now. I will try to pick up where I left off next Tuesday. By the way, I never expect anyone to take my word for what the scriptures actually say. I think it should be fairly easy for people to agree on what they actually say verbatim, because that is written and can be verified, and should be.
Thank you for the blessing of this opportunity.
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Brother John
Please read my May 27 1:47 pm post again, John, particularly the last two paragraphs. Your response made no attempt to confirm your contention that God is kind, loving and merciful or that Moses was the Gold Standard prophet. Somewhere in this jumble is also my repeated request to explain why there is no correlation between the genocides perpetrated by Moses and Hitler as well. A discussion means you're backing up and verifying statements made.
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Brother John
To John Owens and others regarding the Bible….. Kindly scroll down a few posts to mine on May 26 and provide your answers/response. Many of us do not believe the Bible is the "word of God" or the Big Book of Answers for All of Humanity. Why should we (and why do you) accept Bible as factual, accurate and evidentiary?
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John Owens
Brother John, I said that I would have to address your question a little at a time. My opening segment attempts to show that the two different characters you describe are actually one. The Jesus portrayed by most of professing Christianity is all about love and compassion, while your opinion of Yahweh is that he is vengeful and angry. I submit to you that both of those extremes are at once erroneous and yet completely possible in a multi-faceted deity, just as they are in humans. The most tender, loving father and neighbor can become a fire-breathing killer with blood in his eyes and death in his hands when defending his family or community or in war. A loving nurturing mother can behave like an angry she-bear or she-lion if her children are threatened or harmed. I don't see the dichotomy here. God is not limited by OUR perceptions. The Jesus who is perceived as being practically a submissive pushover will conquer the nations and rule them with a rod of iron. He said, "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father." As I was beginning to point out in Friday's post, He was the one who made everything. He was the one who said, "No man at ANY time hath seen the Father," yet we know the scriptures say that Moses beheld Yahweh from behind as Yahweh was passing by. So whom did Moses see? He saw Yahweh, but the one he saw WAS JESUS.
I have to break off again to finish a lengthy quote for a customer. I'll be back.
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csrsports
If I understand my Bible correctly they have no rights in God's eyes. What man decides is what man decides. God gave us a blueprint and it says that any two men that lay together should be stoned. PERIOD. I'm fairly sure he's not talking about legal pot in Colorado either. Do You? Does that sound like a group that needs rights? I not only think NOT but the King James version of the BIBLE backs me up. It's a conscience choice to be gay and in a lot of cases it's done out of revenge. Yep they want to do something that will totally and completely hurt their families and friends. Its a weapon that I have had used on me.
Oh and for everyone that thinks Brother Buck is a Hater... Wrong again. I have a daughter who decided to be gay when she was 21 or 22. We have a good relationship and I love her and her partner Melissa very much. Man says that Melissa is my daughter-in-law but in my heart she's just another person we love. I do not recongize their marriage and they know and understand why.
Also you folks that sound ready to accept this ... Hit Your Knees and pray to the Good Lord to give you guidence. You are way off path and these people care NOTHING about your rights. Remember. Its all about ME ME ME and DOWN with all of you if it goes against ME ME ME ... Jesus is the Way The Truth and the Light . You will find the right answer if you search the gospel. Remember God is the Same Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow. His views on this haven't changed. Man's acceptance and laws may have changed but God hasn't.
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John Owens
Can't find anything biblically wrong with what you said, CSRSPORTS.
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Brother John
I'll put my responses in point form, csrsports. in case you choose to respond in kind.
Wasn't Moses a Jew and the laws he and God proclaimed in the OT meant for Jews? There were no Christians to follow them when they were decreed. Correct?
- The OT has over 600 laws/commandments to follow. Assuming there is a reason for Christians to adhere to laws meant for Jews, why are some respected/quoted and others ignored? Examples of those ignored include various "stoned to death" offences, slavery and misogyny to name a few.
CHRISTians are followers of the teaching of Jesus Christ. What did Jesus say that specifically and clearly condemns homosexuality?
Most importantly, why would anyone base their beliefs, and especially their morals, on a corrupted collection of Bronze Age books with no original manuscripts and thousands of errors and contradictions amongst the existing copies (of copies of copies) with the most errors appearing in the earliest copies?
The highly revered King James Bible was written by a group of "scholars" to please James, their Patron ( "a person who gives money and support to an artist, organization, etc.") Here are excerpts from the original 1611 Preface.
….. "the most high and mightie Prince James by the grace of God, King of Great Britaine, France and Ireland, Defender of the Faith , &c."
"Great and manifold were the blessings (most dread Soveraigne) which Almighty GOD, the Father of all Mercies, bestowed upon us the people of ENGLAND, when first he sent your Majesties Royall person to rule and raigne over us."
This collusion between church and state is how royal authority, ascension and privilege has been maintained and enforced over the centuries. God supposedly sent Jesus for mankind, but he had long ago risen to Heaven. But God also sent an on-going parade of Kings and Queens, to "rule and raigne" over the people who remained here in flesh and blood (only the most royal and blue of bloods however) to keep humanity in submission. Even today, this reign includes a disgusting display of opulence, pomposity and entitlement (not unlike the Catholic and other churches) all on the backs of the peon, subservient people.
But this fawning display of royal brown nosing continues…..
"For whereas it was the expectation of many, who wished not well unto our ZION, that upon the setting of that bright Occidentall Starre Queene ELIZABETH of most happy memory, some thicke and palpable cloudes of darkenesse would so have overshadowed this land, that men should have bene in doubt which way they were to walke, and that it should hardly be knowen, who was to direct the unsetled State: the appearance of your MAJESTIE, as of the Sunne in his strength, instantly dispelled those supposed and surmised mists, and gave unto all that were well affected, exceeding cause of comfort; especially when we beheld the government established in your HIGHNESSE, and your hopefull Seed, by an undoubted Title, and this also accompanied with Peace and tranquillitie, at home and abroad."
……"Humbly craving of your most Sacred Majestie'
…." it may receive approbation and Patronage so learned and judicious a Prince as your Highnesse is, whose allowance and acceptance of our Labours, shall more honour us and incourage us, then all the calumniations and hard interpretations of other men shall dismay us."
The link to the entire Preface is below. There's no doubt that the "translators" were beholding to their most high and mighty dreaded Soverign (and no doubt compensated) to "translate" an already corrupted collection of writings to please him and confirm that he was, in fact, appointed by God.
http://www.kjvbibles.com/kjpreface.htm
As you seem to know your Bible, can you explain why the real 10 commandments (Exodus 34 and confirmed in verse 28) aren't quoted, but instead those from Exodus 20? It seems these tablets were written earlier, but broken by Moses and then changed and re-written afterwards. These are the tablets that God wrote on, right?
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Robert
well the thing to do about the fruitcakes is when you see one go into a public restroom and you know that it is a shim follow it in , beat it up and get the hell out of there before you go to jail
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hsw
And therein lies part of the problem - the ignorance that confuses transvestites with trangendered people. But you, sir, are part of the problem for so many different reasons that they defy listing here.
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Carol Amina
Thank you hsw! You saved me from some typing!
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Gregg
This problem has already been solved. Unisex restrooms are already in use in big cities and make this a non issue.
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Bernard Umbaugh
I grew up in a small three bedroom, one bath home with nine people. A mother, father four sisters and two brothers. We never had a problem because we respected each other and made the best of things as they were! Take down those signs "MENS ROOM" and "LADIES ROOM" and put up one sign "RESTROOM/BATHROOM" and get on with more important things in life - like safe/clean water and food for everyone in this world. Rev. Bernard Umbaugh
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hsw
Yep - all the proposed laws are solutions in search of a problem. It was fine before they got involved - it will be fine when they realize that and step out.
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Bob
This was probably already mentioned but if not here is a simple solution. In any building where many clients have an issue with a shared bathroom, one or more single person male/ female bathrooms can be provided. This is done now in many buildings. If the male/female bathroom is not provided by a business, people can choose not to support the business. People who are concerned about their children can direct them to use the male/ female single person bathroom. This system would have some economic impact on a business if it was legislated to be mandatory. In this system when large crowds cause a long line for the one male/female bathroom, there should be less anxiety using the larger single sex bathroom since the large number of witnesses would most likely illuminate any illegal actions. With this system no one's rights will be violated since all people can use the bathroom that matches their sexual identity. Over time sexual identity bias will fade away just like other discrimitory bias has faded away and the bathroom issue will become a non-issue.
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John Owens
Only an issue in the first place because we have an LGBT Whitehouse. They shouldn't try to fix what is not broken.
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hsw
It's Republicans in the state houses that are trying to "fix" things - until they started trying to "fix" what was never a problem everything was fine.
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John Owens
Yes, by all means blame Republicans because the left keeps trying to conduct these wacky social experiments, and the Republicans are so stuck in their ways, that they won't just go along with any stupid weird thing that comes along. CHANGE IS SELDOM GOOD!! If you had any powers of observation and reason you would see that. This kind of idiocy is about to come to a screeching halt and you don't want to be on the wrong side of it, which you are now. It was fine BEFORE people started messing with the established social order.
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hsw
Oh good. Another name-calling troll. Change is actually usually good. Society evolves. Evolve with it or get left behind, on the wrong side of history. Happy trolling.
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Peter
I'm with you, hsw. The unholy trinity (if they are indeed three separate posters) here - Mary, John, & Pius - bear remarkable similarities in their uninformed, hateful posts. It's unfortunate to be so angry, and not have a clue about that which he/she/they speak(s). As an area superintendent once told me about a rather obnoxious kid in my class, "At least you don't have to go home to him." (or her, or them)
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M
line your not calling anybody names, plz you guys are the main name callers, you can't let others who think differently then you alone at all, but you want be have your ideas accepted, that is being a hypocrite. he who has not sinned. in your guy's case you are the biggest sinners of all. the main problem here is that you guys want to run a much all over everybody else without consequences, that is why laws had to be made in the first place, and further more this is about the freaks and pervs not wanting to be Christians and having moral values, and it is about the war on Christianity and that is all the n Carolina law is doing is to make sure that you people can't penalize us for being Christians, that is what the whole ordeal is all about, you guys don't want to have christian values to account to, and you want to get rid of Christianity all together so that you don't have to worry about it, you want to go back in time to PreChristian times. that is why christian values had to come about because people were in anarchy, selfishness and doing what ever they wanted to to anybody or anything they wanted to without consequences and if you read the old testament and the book of Mormon, you would see that, and you would understand that that is why many of the old prophets had to come up with law, or Gods law other wise we would all be a bunch of savage animals.
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John Owens
hsw, I did not call ANYONE any names in my post, so you are acting the troll here, and Peter, MY posts are at a MINIMUM, as well informed as yours and probably grammatically superior, but I see that all you have is insults rather than knowledge or insight. Remember when you are pointing fingers that people who live in glass houses should not throw stones. hsw, learn to read. I am only responsible for what I say, not what you interpret. Peter, learn NOT to categorize people, please. My reasoning is very different from Mary's, and Pius'. The fact that you disagree with all three of us is the main thing we have in common. You are acting like a simpleton.
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Brother John
It's amusing to see that there are still people who use the terms; "Republican" "Democrat", "conservative/liberal" and right/left to define others, particularly when they are intended as offhanded insults. With enough people believing there are actually elections rather than (s)elections, the charade will continue as always.
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Revy Wilmont
Although some may not have used them before... Outhouses (portable toilets) since the 1950's in America (the plastic type). Also, as Gregg Wietstock mentioned... there are already unisex bathrooms already all over the place! Politics and the Media need to get out of this "problem"... it was actually never an issue but only another way to fuel hate.
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Dragon Priest
This is so upsetting because it is being used by the Republicans as a vehicle to further discriminate. Where ever Republicans take control the people suffer. I DONT CARE IF THE PERSON PEEING NEXT TO ME IS A MAN OR A WONAN. Most people in that are in that situation would rather be discreet. So the toilet issue is pure crap to scare little old ladies for religious idiocy and political schemes.
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John Owens
Most men do not want to use a public bathroom with women present and most women feel the same way. It is different than in your own home. If people don't care, they need to use the one corresponding to their equipment and stop whining about discrimination. Discrimination against the majority is still discrimination.
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hsw
The biggest difference from in your own home is that that's where most molestations happen - from friends and family members. Just the facts. You're safer in a public restroom.
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John Owens
I've always been safe in a public restroom. What's your point here? I don't want to crap next to a woman, and most women don't want to crap next to me. It is not discriminatory to have separate bathrooms for males and females. What's the end game? There has to be one.
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M
oh, i have never been molested in my own bathroom, neither has my mother, but many elder women are molested in nursing homes, there are also many incidences in which women being victimized in dressing rooms, and children, in public bathrooms, in fact i saw on line not long ago on the internet where a family went to a restaurant to eat, the two boys went into the bathroom to go, one came out, acted strange when his father questioned him and decided to check on the other one and found a perv with his dick inside the youngest boy, and he beat the hell out of the guy, and there are a lot more of those if they are not taken off fb if you just look for it, just because you don't know things does not mean they don't happen, my mother had a father who would never molester her, would never let here brothers molester her, some men back when were real men, not the perverted things pretending to be men these days, and my grandpa would had kicked the asses of any man who tried, so not every family has perverts in their homes, but every society now days seem to have more then their share of perverts. it is better to not take the chance on the innocent, but maybe you are not so innocent so you would not know about that.
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Bob
So much hate on here......... and oh no less than a million trans people are going to invade every public restroom in the country? and the point that keeps being brought up basically comes down to someone with a penis puts girls at risk. Are not boys at risk being in the men's room then? As more people with penises are sexual predators than people without. A trans woman could be at risk in a men's room.
A few have stated the black and white of god/nature has male and female and no 3rd sex...........well that's not true there are inter-sexed people born that way. What about them?
the hypersexuality of nudity and most extreme sexual deviant behavior is caused by sexual repression that has been drilled into people from birth. For God's sake it's just flesh!
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Carol
Someone posted a number which I haven't verified but let's assume it's correct; that there are 750,000 transgendered people in the U.S. With a +/- population of 320,000,000 that makes that group .002% of the population. Someone posted that we should have a 3rd restroom. So, we have to turn the entire country upside down, totally confuse the youth (whom we are supposed to be guiding!) spend what would amount to millions of dollars in public funding and private business funding to make that .002% feel better about themselves. Lunacy!
Someone else said the world is changing. If that is how, it is for the worst. God's law has not changed - nor will it ever no matter what man says.
We all have our demons. We should fight those demons silently and not ask everyone else to help us bear them.
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Michael Jordan Jr.
Carol, what is lunacy is that your solution is for everyone to be quiet, keep to themselves, and pretend like this issue doesn't exist! Can't we at least talk about it?
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John Owens
Carol, you have a good grasp of truth. Michael here, wants to talk about his FEELINGS. It is a created problem, and any response creates more problems, and everybody on the right is trying to be rational and sensible, while those on the left are being hysterical and judgemental, because they think they are the smart ones. I have not seen ONE post from ONE TRANSGENDER person here. Does any of us realize why? BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT INVOLVED IN THIS AT ALL. The left is USING the transgenders just like they use the "underprivileged" and "disenfranchised" and "homeless" to try to further some obscure agenda of which they themselves are unaware. Do you remember Randy Newman's song, "Short People"? I loved it, thought it was hilarious. I sing it sometimes at karaoke. Shortly after it came out, certain people were complaining that it was "mean" to say the stuff in that song. These weren't short people. They were average to tall people who were being offended FOR short people. I'm 5'-5", and I LIKED the song. The transgenders have not had a problem with restrooms before. This is all new, all invented, all BS, but we do NOT have to go along with it.
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Minister V
You've got it backwards. The people on the political left are the ones being sensible. The political right are the ones driven by fear and paranoia. The statistics of who is a sexual assailant are that 82% are someone the victim knows closely; such as a father, step-father, priest/pastor/church-leader, coach or teacher, or some other family friend. The likelihood of being assaulted by some random stranger is on the order of around 5%.
And yet, these laws are being created which don't actually do anything to stop predators, but actively harm trans people. Most often, it's trans women being affected. These laws are being touted under the auspice of "no men in women's bathrooms", and yet, by demanding that people use a bathroom according to their assignment at birth, we now have men being actively ordered into the women's restroom, burly muscles, beards and all.
Thus, your claim that "they aren't involved in this" is wrong. They are involved, because these laws directly target them. And attack them. And harm them. And as proof, I direct you towards another post here, where the author of that comment categorically calls for physically assaulting someone who happens to be trans: He even calls that fellow human "it" in doing so.
And for the record - transgender is an adjective, not a noun, nor a verb. So a person would be a trans woman, or trans man. Not a transgender. Nor a transgendered person.
Finally, regarding your claim that you haven't seen one post from a trans person, unless he or she specifically says so, through the written word you'd likely have no idea if you were talking to one. And if they're fortunate enough to be "passable", when talking to him or her in public, you wouldn't know either.
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John Owens
You're so full of baloney and propaganda that you can't even see it in yourself.
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M
you are the one who is wrong, the left is always over reacting and being irrational. that is why they want to always say people are being insensitive, that is an emotional thing, everything that the left comes up it is always irrational and emotional.
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John Owens
I heartily agree with your last point, Mary. The left's arguments are always irrational and emotional. At the same time they are pretending they are the rational, sensible ones. This was prophesied, called "strong delusion." These people think they are more loving and more righteous than God, while nothing could be further from the truth. They want mercy for killers and pedophiles, and no mercy for infants in the womb. Mercy for rapists/and therapy for rape victims. Compassion and benefits for illegals, bare minimum for veterans. They condemn anyone who doesn't agree with them as being ignorant, bigoted buffoons, not realizing that they are both ignorant and bigoted. They play grammar-Nazi on your spelling and punctuation, and try to ridicule you into silence. That alone should tell any rational person that THEY are the more ignorant, less tolerant in the forum. Leftists blame the forest fires on climate change, while the fires are dumping more "greenhouse" gases into the atmosphere. The leftists are to blame for the fires, since they think we should not have firebreaks and controlled burns, because they worship trees and animals, and think the forests should be left pristine or some such rot. They love to throw out statistics, which they get from some pamphlet put out as propaganda. They think they are progressive, but they are digressive. Evil becomes good to them, and good becomes evil. God is not part of their knowledge. They want to love evil-doers and hate you. They will put a water-saver on a toilet, and turn the flow down so you have to flush three times. You seem like a sweet, well-intentioned lady, who wants to reason with unreasonable people. Please don't let them change you. You are doing just fine. This world is going to get a lot worse before it gets better. This is only the beginning.
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Tracy
Please do not eat shrimp or eat at any seafood restaurant. If you are following God's law, shrimp and crab are forbidden. Also remember Love thy neighbor as thy self... One of God's best laws!
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M
don't worry, i don't eat shrimp or seafood, either. i obey God's laws, and in so far as love thy neighbor, does not mean to be a food and allow others to hurt you when they hurt you. love thy neighbor not love their actions and lot leave yourself vonerilbe to attacks by others. i mean look what loving thy neighbor got Jesus, crucified, even God and the cosmic understands the need to protect yourself, better yet, don't put yourself into situations that puts you in peril in the first place. that is only common sense. which you lack. so dont tell others to do something when you don't have common sense.
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Tracy
As you have just proved... There is nothing common about sense!
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M
sure there is, with people of like minds. if you don't like the people with the beliefs that the people in this country has, then move to Lesbos Island or some place where you and take all your types of friends with you and you and them would them all have the somethings in common. and the fact that you don't have common sense is proof of perverse thoughts on you and your type of people. Lesbos, Greecehttps://www.google.com/maps/place/Lesbos,+Greece/@39.1746535,25.6574762,9z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x14af8516edc7f755:0x8627d601b32663e7!8m2!3d39.2645095!4d26.2777073,
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John Owens
I too, try to obey the dietary law, as a matter of faith that God is telling me what is good for me.
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Brother Amos
Reading all the comments from the beginning and gathering as much input as I can before making any statement at all, I have come to two very evident conclusions. 1- this problem isn't going to be solved by bickering amongst ourselves and 2- we must all pray for Mary. The solution is simple, a single bathroom with one toilet and a lock on the door. While it may make lines longer, it will eliminate anyone fr going in with someone else and everyone will feel safer while doing their business.
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John Owens
So, ONE WALMART needs 30 or more separate bathrooms to service the same number of customers that are now served by two bathrooms in front and two at the rear of the store. You know some guys will pee on the seats, and others will pee in the floor. Just pointing it out. We will all have to pay when we shop.
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Alun Palmer
The problem that the right are talking about is a non-existent one. Nobody can cite even one case of a man dressing as a woman to get into the ladies room to molest women or girls. Maybe now someone will try it, just because the right invented it and gave them ideas, but AFAIK it has never happened.
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John Owens
Happened at a Target in Texas. Dude had hundreds of snapped pics of little girls on his phone. Little girl heard the phone clicking, stepped out, told her dad, and he held the door closed until the cops arrived. You can't say no one has done that. If it can be thought of, someone has done it.
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Peter
Source?
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Minister Mishale Stairs
The source doesn't exist as the story referred to was a GUY not a transgender female and he walked in goatee and all without any question asked. So perverts will be perverts without going out of their way to learn how to dress, walk, talk, do make up, etc. like the opposite gender.
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John Owens
Dallas Observer, 6 days ago. Breitbart, 21 hours ago.
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John Owens
Frisco, TX police are looking for a thin white male, approximately 5'11". If men can go in women's rooms, they don't have to be cross-dressers.
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Jon Badger
And what about transgender rights in school? Come on, how can a 6 year old be transgender? Sexuality hasn't even begun! What does it mean to be a boy or a girl at this age - toys. dresses, Legos and dolls? Honestly, these lost children need help, not another bathroom... And I think no one has answered a fundamental question - why is it OK for the comfort of one person make many other people uncomfortable? Is that what human rights are about? I am talking about a transgender person born as a boy (transgender boy would be too ambiguous:)) sharing lockers room with girls. He'd feel at home there but I am not sure the girls would. Is that fair and in the true spirit of America?
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Minister Mishale Stairs
The conversation is not about locker rooms it's about public bathrooms which have stalls.
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Gregg
People try to wrest happiness out of material things rather than immaterial. When we do this, we invite pain and suffering. I must be grateful to my Creator for the sex I was born with. If I seek happiness by changing my sex, I cannot avoid the resulting pain and sorrow. This is a very simple truth.
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Minister Mishale Stairs
Transgender people are generally suicidal and depressed after transitioning and during they are happier minus the hatred from society but they are happy looking in the mirror. This is indicative that the creator made them to be transgender in order to encourage people to love each other even when different.
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Minister V
Actually, trans people's high suicide rate is often caused by the ill-treatment they receive at the hands of most people. When they transition, and if in a welcoming, open, and accepting environment, their rates often drop to match that of the average person.
Thus, the high rate of suicide isn't because they are trans, it's because of how society treats them.
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M
peter, i did post a whole lot of the post and where those happened. the one with the dressing room and the pool happened in Spokane, Wa. and for your information you are the one calling names not so unless you are a hypocrite, which you are demonstrating quite well.You think it is okay to bully others but others are not supposed to reciprocate? how irrational it that. that is the problem with all you liberal types, you are irrational.
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Reverend Reynolds
I always worried what I'd do if my son was too old to come into the ladies room with me but I felt he was still too young to go into a public Men's room by himself. A common bathroom would solve that issue. In that context it's safer because family can watch over each other. In any case I've never felt threatened by transgender people in the bathroom. They are people just like anyone else. What their private parts are doesn't make them any more or less a threat than anyone else. I've come across same sex (women) people in the bathroom I've felt uncomfortable around..not because of their gender but because of their actions. At the end of the day we are all people accountable for our actions and not symbols of our private parts.
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M
https://youtu.be/FnV0WnEkmqw?t=1399
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Tracy
Parents should go to the bathroom with their children. Parents should explain if the child has questions. The answers should be based on the child's ability to understand. Whatever the answer it should be given with love and understanding.
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M
parents should go with their children anyway, but that is no justification to let strangers put others in peril, that is just uncalled for.
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M
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153707994359141&set=a.5014174140.6661.709594140&type=3&theater
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Tracy
I will pray for you and since I know you can be a good neighbor, you will pray for me. Let's just agree to disagree!
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M
i will be happy to agree to disagree as long as you don't force your way and your believes onto me and others like me, or mine.
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Tracy
Please learn to spell. I would hate for you to be confused with Trump's undereducated poor!
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Janet Greene
3 bathroom would solve the problem. But when a person use the bathroom and the door locks is it necessary for people to bring attention to how there using the bathroom...! People are always going to fine a reason to complain...!! Ijs
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Jeff Smith
Here is a simplified aspect f the various points of this debate.
Those against 1. "perverts will legally be able to get access to women and little girls, we must protect them." or 2. "God made them male and female use the bathroom that matches your plumbing because that is what matters."
Responses 1. Criminals are criminals BECAUSE they commit crimes, and we all ready have lots of laws pertaining to when someone commits a crime. That and statistics have shown MANY times, that those who are transgender are FAR MORE LIKELY to be the VICTIM of an attack, plus transgender individuals are for more likely to face discrimination and persecution. So if your stance is protection, you should also fight to protect the LGBT community, after all, they are God's children too.
- Simple rebuttal, Who are you to say that God Himself did not choose to put female souls in male bodies and male souls in female bodies?
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Bob Soukup
Transgender folks have been using the bathrooms of choice for years long before all this discussion came up. Hasn't been a problem in the past. Shouldn't be a problem now.
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Brendan
Let's be adults here. This isn't an issue. It's been made an issue by the same ideologues that would have us believe there is a wage gap. There are disabled toilets everywhere. These places are unisex. So it fails as an issue right out of the gate. It's a myth. Let's also talk about gender. There are two genders, there is a male and a female gender. To believe otherwise is absurd. Grow up. There is a mental illness which is quite rare where men feel like being women. They can dress like a woman, act like a woman and even go to the toilet like a woman. What they cannot do is change the laws so that it men are allowed to enter women's bathrooms. Don't trample the opinions and feelings of the majority to cater for the feelings and opinions of the minority it's childish and it's called a tantrum. Is this what the Life Church is? A mouth piece for social justice warriors and feminists. The ultimate antithesis to reason in 2016. I believe in secular humanist values, secular democratic values, reason and evidence. Applying the principles that made us great. Individualism, capitalism, meritocracy. It's funny. The people that push these agendas quite happily step on the safety and the rights of others. The worst thing is it's grandstanding. Like rape culture it's a myth. It's identity politics and it stinks. Never has it been an issue until it was made an issue. Transgender people have been toileting without being confronted for how many years? It's a lie that it's even an issue. To take it serious is to be guilty of the act of using your feelings before your faculties. lose this Social Justice group Life Church. They make your organisation look like fanatics.
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hsw
Brendan, I was mildly interested in what you had to say unto you said rape culture is a myth. I don't have the time or the energy to debate this properly right now so go fuck yourself will have to do.
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hsw
"Transgender people have been toileting without being confronted for how many years? It’s a lie that it’s even an issue."
Brendan, the first part you got right. Transgender people have been toileting without being confronted, for the most part, for as long as there have been transgendered people. What you fail to address is that it's become an issue, and it IS an issue, because a number of state legislatures have passed or proposed laws that are solutions in search of a problem. They have created an atmosphere where someone who only wants to use the bathroom and leave, like everybody else, can actually be subject to arrest. The understandable pushback against these regressive laws is where the issue falls.
You write like a libertarian, and they generally are in favor of freedom for everyone as long as no one else's rights are infringed upon. I may have misidentified you, as your hostility does suggest you may be farther to the right.
In any case, it's an issue because these legislatures made it an issue, not because those who only want to pee in peace chose to do so.
By the way, I've worked in HR for many years, and you're wrong about the wage gap too, but that's a conversation for another night.
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Lyn
OK. This is simple. A person who looks like a woman and feels like a woman would not be welcome in a men's bathroom. And vice versa, of course. What I imagine happening with these stupid laws is that thee are going to be a lot of freak outs in bathrooms wherever this ridiculous law exists. So a teacher is transgender (yup, I am aware of one) and "she" needs the potty but goes to the men's room. Hahahahahaha! Can you imagine the freakiness of this law? It is just stupid and so self-centric of these religious yahoo's. Seriously?
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kariorit
Are these comments moderated at ALL?? Why in the world would a ministry site allow someone like this "mary" to spew such hatred towards people? name calling? all manner of judgement? Why would someone as dogmatically fundamental in their christianity even need or want to belong to a universal group?
This is so disturbing. I came here looking for expressions of love and light and instead feel like I need a bath from the fundie ugliness being thrown around. And it is all coming from the fundie christians...... sad.
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John Owens
Mary is not spewing hatred. She is trying to enunciate beliefs that are widely held and have been for a very long time. She OBVIOUSLY does not hate PEOPLE. She abhors some types of behavior. UNIVERSAL means welcoming to all. You seem to exhibit bigotry against "fundies". That does not make you less of a bigot. Just saying.
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Carol Amina
Thank you kariorit! Like you I came to the Universal Church to avoid the fundies. OK you can call me a bigot if you want John, but it is not without good cause. I have many Fundamentalist friends but they don't take and act in the hateful way that Mary and some others have here. They tend to show Love and Compassion so when I see so called Christians being so mean and hostel its disturbing to me. It is sad to me to see this kind of mean spirited talk coming from a group I am a member of. Might be time to disassociate myself from yet another church due to hatefulness.
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hsw
Carol please stay. I believe most of us came here for much the same reason and I, too, fail to understand why those so full of hate and hatefulness would even come to a place that is open and welcoming to all.
Those of us who are open to the ideas of others (as long as hate and bigotry are not involved) need to stay or this will just be one more place taken over by those whose idea of "religious freedom" extends only to the like-minded, and whose idea of "small government" is a government where regulations and restrictions are just fine as long as they are regulating and restricting those whose lifestyle they don't approve of.
To be clear, I do NOT include LGBT and other sexual expressions in the definition of "lifestyle," as they no more chose who they are in that regard than I did.
So...please stay with us, or eventually all open minded people will be forced to leave because it's just too exhausting to deal with the hate without "backup."
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Carol Amina
Thank you hsw for the kind and supportive message. I don't tend to back away from hatefulness per say. That is in my maturing years I have less tolerance for mean spirits I now even more am mindful that the only way to push it back is with kindness and a loving heart. I do believe there are more of us in the world than them. My children and grand children are far kinder than my parents were and have grown up with tolerance being modeled for them. So yes! your right we will link arms and stand agents the bigots, hater, and zealots.
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M
Carol, if you and all your kind really want to be more mature, then try having just as much tolerance for those who don't share the same opinion as you do and stop thinking them as bigots and racists and any other things you like to bully others with, also try being understanding of them, they just might have some validity in their thinking if you talked to them with a rational mind instead of being so irrational with them, otherwise you are not being as mature as you want others to say you are being, and you are not being tolerant and kind and loving in you heart as you say you are trying to be, no you all have to think you need to to bully them. but don't patronize us because patronizing is just as inferiority as trying to bully us.
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John Owens
I'm afraid that civil discourse requires a higher level of social evolution than most of us have achieved. It requires that all parties in the discourse practice it at the same time. One word, emotionally loaded, can easily cause two or more parties to drop the civility. We have the annoying and counter-productive habit of pushing one another's buttons and triggering emotional reactions as opposed to rational ones. Any place two or more humans are present, this is going to occur. There is no place it does not, except in very controlling cults, which are worse in most ways than an antagonistic atmosphere. I've seen it everywhere I've been. Sometimes, in a group, you have to ascertain which group has the point of view you share, and lay your ears back. Conflict cannot be avoided, period. It can be managed to a lesser or greater degree, if we try to see what the other parties really are trying to say or achieve. Disagreement is not necessarily HATE. Criticism is not either. We get the most criticism from people we love, but it is not hate. Well-intentioned interference, maybe.
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Carol Amina
I sense a man of inner kindness and sweet spirit here John! and your right in my own family there is the greatest source of hard feelings for the very reasons you speak of. We don't all agree, on religion, politics or even whats for dinner. The ones who are able to communicate on a higher level and try to reason and consider the others often get accused of being high brow or acting like therapists.
So we disagree, can we do it kindly and with compassion for each other? I am guilty of getting my panties in a bunch when I hear or read what feels like racism, sexism, and other isums...I need to work on taking the log out of my own eye some days more than others. If I don't practice what I preach I am no better than those I am angry with. Thank you for your post it steered my mind to consider my thoughts and words more carefully and not attach hate to disagreement.-
John Owens
I was kinda preaching to myself, too, Carol. I once took a class which focused on "receiver-oriented communication." The idea being to actually PERSUADE another person to modify their perception rather than have a battle of words which no one can actually win, after which both are either angry, hurt, or feeling somehow superior, if they think they "won" the battle.
Sometimes I will start out rationally, but someone says something that gets under my skin, and I react, when I should remain calm and passive. I get upset when people who don't know me or anything about me try to classify me, simply because I do not share their "misconceptions" (I say that tongue-in-cheek, since I PERCEIVE them as misconceptions.). This should not be a forum for mindless dickering and political name-calling, but one of thoughtful contemplation. I don't want anyone here to change my points of view, and probably neither does anyone else, and YET, we put them out here, and try to speak to the merits of them.
Sometimes we feel threatened or insulted, and in our own minds we decide the offending party is not as well-informed or insightful as we are. True, if we thought we were wrong to begin with, we would already have modified our positions. My goal is not to change opinions about what others believe, but merely to state as inoffensively as possible what I believe, and try to ascertain if they have anything actually relevant to contribute to my inner data-base. They seldom do, but I occasionally chat with someone of a different point of view whom I find to be a delightful human and worthy of respect and kindness. If they are, I can tell them my point of view and its merits, and they tell me theirs, and even if neither of us learns a thing about ourselves, our understanding of one another has grown. I think you must be a delightful person, worthy of respect and admiration. Thank you for reading my post and thinking about it.
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Carol Amina
I would like to answer mary in her last post toward me. Your right mary! I do stuggel just as you do. It's not easy to hear others when you feel bullied or patronized. I do not intend to make anyone feel that way. You are reminding me to remember the power of negative words to and about others. Thank you. I mean that! I am sorry for making you feel that way. Peace
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John Owens
EVERYBODY!! Please take note of the sweetness here. It is so much nicer to have conversation than argument. "How sweet it is for brethren to dwell together in harmony"
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Carol Amina
To John Owens, Thank you!
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M
I find all you homos and transgenders and lovers of them to fit right in line with satanists as you will see from the following below.
The Nine Satanic Sins Beliefs of the Church of Satan
By Catherine Beyer Alternative Religions Expert
Updated November 24, 2014. While the Church of Satan encourages individuality and the gratification of desires, it does not suggest that all actions are acceptable. The Nine Satanic Sins, published by Anton LaVey in 1987, target nine characteristics Satanists should avoid. Here they are, along with my own explanations.
Stupidity Stupid people do not get ahead in this world. Satanists strive to keep themselves informed and to not be fooled by others who seek to manipulate and use them.
Pretentiousness Taking pride in one’s achievements is encouraged in Satanism. However, one should only take credit for one’s own accomplishments. Making empty claims about yourself is not only obnoxious but also potentially dangerous, leading to sin No. 4, self-deceit.
Solipsism
Satanists use this term to refer to the presumption many people make that other people think, act and have the same desires as themselves. It’s important to remember that everyone is an individual with his own individual goals and plans. To expect someone to treat you as you treat him is foolish. Instead, Satanists encourages you to treat people as they treat you. You should always deal with the reality of the situation rather than expectations.
Self-Deceit Satanists deal with the world as it is. Convincing yourself of untruths because they are more comfortable is no less problematic than letting someone else deceive you.
Herd Conformity Satanism exalts the power of the individual. Western culture encourages people to go with the flow, and to believe and do things simply because the wider community is doing such. Satanists attempt to avoid such behavior, following the herd only if it makes logical sense and suits one’s own needs.
Lack of Perspective Remain aware of both the big and small pictures, never sacrificing one for the other. Remember your own important place in things, and don’t be overwhelmed with the viewpoints of the herd. On the flip side, we do live in a world larger than ourselves. Always keep an eye on the big picture and how you can fit yourself into it.
Forgetful of Past Orthodoxies Society is constantly taking old ideas and repackaging them as new, original ideas. Do not be fooled by such offerings.
Counterproductive Pride If it works, use it. You should never be embarrassed of your own accomplishments. However, if pride is getting in the way of getting things done with other people, you should set it aside until such time as it becomes constructive again.
Lack of Aesthetics Beauty and balance are two things Satanists strive for. This is particularly true in magical practices but can be extended to the rest of one’s life as well. Avoid following that which society dictates is beautiful and learn to identify true beauty, whether or not others recognize it.
So most of you who think that only being Satanic means only being murderous, you don't understand all that Satan does, Satan comes between God and the individuals, Satan comes between the family and the individual and God, Satan comes between the community, the families and the individuals, Satan aim is to break down society and to keep everybody from ascending and Satan does this by making wrong things seem right. Satan is a trickster. If that is not enough info for you, then talk to Reverend Rob Wheeler, or read the other info I posted before, or if I need to, I will repost them again.
With Satanic activities and promotional events so much in the news lately, I thought it might be interesting to go back to the founding father of American Satanism: Anton Szandor LaVey, a high school drop-out whose Cook County (Chicago), IL birth certificate bore a far less exotic name — Howard Stanton Levey, son of Michael and Gertrude Levey.
Although most people assume that Satanism has existed for millennia, in “Contemporary Esotericism” religious studies professors and authors Egil Asprem and Kennet Granholm confirm that LaVey founded the first “unbroken explicitly Satanic tradition, in the sense of a group of people adhering to a teaching of that type” over a period of decades or more.
What teachings did LaVey espouse? It’s proven devilishly difficult to separate fact from fiction in his life and writings because, as he noted in his 1998 book, "Satan Speaks!":
“I’m one helluva liar. Most of my adult life, I’ve been accused of being a charlatan, a phony, an impostor. I guess that makes me about as close to what the Devil’s supposed to be as anyone. It’s true. I lie constantly, incessantly. Because I lie so often, I’d really be full of s**t if I didn’t keep my mouth shut and my b***ls open. ” Rev. John D. Allee reports that in the 1990 edition of LaVey’s "Grotto Master’s Handbook," LaVey displayed theistic beliefs to his inner circle:
" Satan is a very personal Companion. We admire Satan and wish to gain his respect, therefore we act as he would — in defiance of anything or anyone who would demand our worship. It would be an insult to offer him unthinking worship. But this is fact: Unlike the promises of the Christians, Satan does develop an intensely intimate relationship with each of his followers. You may not perceive it until you train yourself to sense it, but since you have achieved the position of Grotto Master, you have probably already been touched by it. He will remain with you until your breath leaves your body." (Emphasis in original.)
More about LaVey below, but first, it may be helpful to describe the various currents of thought among self-identified Satanists. Both theists and atheists claim the label, although atheistic Satanists are decried as poseurs by the true believers. Their schism was explored in World Religion News on September 22, 2014.
The Church of Satan — founded by LaVey and now led by High Priest Magus Peter H. Gilmore — comes closest to being a religious organization. They have the dubious benefit of five books by LaVey: "The Satanic Bible" (1969), "The Satanic Rituals" (1972), "The Satanic Witch" (1989), "The Devil’s Notebook" (1992) and the aforementioned "Satan Speaks!."
Adherents of the Church of Satan (who probably never numbered more than 300) may have believed in a being who rebelled against God in their early years (as a member of the Manson family affirmed), but later described Satan as only a “symbol of pride, liberty and individualism.” Yet they oppose the use of “Satanic” by The Satanic Temple (TST) because they see TST members as atheists with no “hierarchical structure or beliefs.”
A third organization, the Temples of Satan, agrees that the 2-year-old Satanic Temple is using Satan’s name fraudulently. On their very spare website, littered with misspelled words, the theistic Temples of Satan explain how they differ from the Church of Satan: “We are Theistic and they are Atheist, while we believe in an actual deity, they believe in themselves elevated to a deity.”
What it boils down to is a continuum of Satanic beliefs, beginning on one extreme with theistic devil-worshipers who honor and serve the original rebel against God, sometimes identified as the fallen angel we know as Lucifer or Satan.We must admit that many Americans today see themselves as superior to the herd of “stupid” Christians (Hollywood, the mainstream media, academia, the federal govenrment to name a few), and congratulate themselves as being original thinkers, devoid of self-deception, charting their own course in life on their own terms.
LaVey certainly saw himself this way. He bragged about having been a circus lion tamer in his teens, a professional oboeist with a non-existent ballet orchestra, a one-time San Francisco Police photographer, a technical adviser to “Rosemary’s Baby,” and a multi-millionaire with three homes, a fleet of luxury cars, and a yacht. But, in truth, public records show that he was none of those things. He beat his wife, pimped young women, lived in poverty and on the public dole and even mooched off his father throughout his life.
We must admit that many Americans today see themselves as superior to the herd of “stupid” Christians (Hollywood, the mainstream media, academia, the federal govenrment to name a few), and congratulate themselves as being original thinkers, devoid of self-deception, charting their own course in life on their own terms.
LaVey certainly saw himself this way. He bragged about having been a circus lion tamer in his teens, a professional oboeist with a non-existent ballet orchestra, a one-time San Francisco Police photographer, a technical adviser to “Rosemary’s Baby,” and a multi-millionaire with three homes, a fleet of luxury cars, and a yacht. But, in truth, public records show that he was none of those things. He beat his wife, pimped young women, lived in poverty and on the public dole and even mooched off his father throughout his life.
But he was much more than a pathetic, violent crank. LaVey and Church of Satan cofounder Kenneth Anger influenced the delusions of countless people, including serial killers Charles Manson and Manson family member Susan Atkins, Richard Ramirez (the Night Stalker), and the infamous Son of Sam.
The hysteria of the 1980s over the alleged ritual sexual abuse and killing of children in Satanic rituals may have been without basis, but then how does one explain an article earlier this week in which a Welsh victim of child sexual abuse claimed that she was raped approximately 1,800 times by Satanic cult members?
And Satan himself? Current Magus High Priest Gilmore explains: "Satan is not a conscious entity to be worshipped, rather a reservoir of power inside each human to be tapped at will." Rather New Age, no?
Here’s some final food for thought. According to Benjamin Cloth, "LaVeyan Satanists believe that you have but one … life with no punishments or repercussions attached afterwards. They easily answer the question, ‘What’s the purpose of life?’ with a simple response: ‘To enjoy it by getting your way!.’" (Emphasis in original.)
How many people in North America and Western Europe are living according to this same precept?
See more at: http://aleteia.org/2014/09/26/what-do-satanists-really-believe/22/#sthash.hE4LNu8V.dpuf
See more at: http://aleteia.org/2014/09/26/what-do-satanists-really-believe/21/#sthash.LfG8hNbs.dpuf
See more at: http://aleteia.org/2014/09/26/what-do-satanists-really-believe/21/#sthash.LfG8hNbs.dpuf
See more at: http://aleteia.org/2014/09/26/what-do-satanists-really-believe/#sthash.TqLMGbiz.dpuf
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Tracy
It seems to me that your writings fit within the 9 items you list above.
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Brother John
They are moderated, kariorit, but I'd guess very few are eliminated. You should have been here a couple of years ago. One thread became so vile (all from Christians) the comments were closed. There are a couple of the more ignorant posters taking part here. Funny that they all appear to be fundamentalist Christians. Even funnier that their proselytizing, damnation and overt bigotry will simply drive people away from the religion they promote so loudly.
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John Owens
Yes. Those damned proselytizing fundamentalist Christians! They're ruining the world. They should be more open-minded and understanding like Space-face "Brother" John here. He's so kind, and nice.
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Tracy
Yes and you just made Brother John's point!
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John Owens
Nothing correct that anyone can say to you people. You are all bitter and negative to anyone different, while claiming that fundamentalists are the problem. You are a mirror image of what you hate, while not even knowing what you love. I pity you all.
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Brother John
"Space-face"? Come on, John, are you running low on insults? I do appreciate your pity and your prayers though. I had this weird tingly feeling a couple of days ago. Was that you praying for me?
I posted this video on a different thread a few months ago and you might not have seen it. Yes, there are proselytizing fundamentalist Christians who could ruin the world but thankfully there are many more who are spreading the truth to counteract them. Which ones do you identify with? My favourite section starts around 4 min 30 sec where Ken and Rodney appear to be telling jokes while speaking in tongues (who says fundamentalists don't have a sense of humour?). I think they're just making up an imaginary language to impress their followers to scam them for donations, but then I'm a leftie, skeptical non-believer.
Some of these charlatans are obscure, but many of them attract huge groups of believers, which you can see for yourself when the cameras pan around. What must adherents to other religions think of Christians while watching this? Do you think there are Muslim televangelists shaming Islam like these clowns do with Christianity?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2af4gcS-b9Y
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John Owens
That is funny. Never knew the holiness crowd to be really funny, though some of them are really nice. I used to date a holiness girl. (This was back in the 70s). I would get stoned and go to services with her (they had them 4 or 5 times a week). I enjoyed the music and singing (electric guitar and organ, drums, bass), but sometimes the other antics would be a tiny bit wild, but I kinda enjoyed it. Some of those services are a little scary. The stuff on this video ought to be an embarrassment to the followers of these people. Some of this behavior, if it isn't pure lunacy, has to be demon-influenced. I don't identify with ANY of these people. I observe the Sabbath, and not Sunday, and Holy Days, not holidays. My household and I try to follow the teachings of Moses and the prophets, besides the sacrificial stuff, which only descendants of Aaron are allowed to perform. We also try to follow the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles, which are NOTHING AT ALL like the stuff on this video. We don't believe people turn into angels or anything else when they die, except maybe eventually dust. We think the dead are dead. They don't fly off to heaven and sing for eternity or be thrown down to some Mephistopheles cavern to burn for eternity.
It's no wonder so much of the world objects to some forms of Christianity. I find much of it objectionable.
Being from the South, I am familiar with all the indigenous faiths, but not a real participant, except to attend a funeral or wedding. Those are usually attended by people from several branches of the Protestant groups, so the services are more generic. I've been to a couple of biker weddings and read some verses at a biker funeral. Trying to learn to play bagpipes since that is something a lot of us want played as we are lowered into our graves, but progress is awfully slow. That's a tough instrument, not at all as easy as a keyboard or violin to learn basic tunes.
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Brother John
I find it appalling, John. Perhaps there were a few in attendance who were stoned and just there for the music, but the vast majority of the MILLIONS of evangelical Christians who attend churches like this are not. Through their faith and belief, this seems real to them. The healing, holy anointing, presence of the Holy Spirit, and believability of the preacher all revolve around the same (or similar) Bible everyone uses. They think they're "saved". I think they're delusional. Many of the preachers are respected and admired as ordained "Men/Women of God". I think they're charlatans because they are promoting belief without evidence as fact and truth. They're preying (not just praying) on people who desperately want to believe. Their fellow "men/women of God" are just as guilty even though they don't appear on YouTube. Most of them are in the "religion business". I believe videos like this are the best evidence of the potential downside of belief and faith in place of truth and knowledge, even if it does make you happy…..ecstatic…..fulfilled
I'm somewhat puzzled about your beliefs now, John. Although you often refer to the Bible as your source of guidance, it looks like you don't believe some fundamental Christian beliefs.
You said…."We don’t believe people turn into angels or anything else when they die, except maybe eventually dust. We think the dead are dead. They don’t fly off to heaven and sing for eternity or be thrown down to some Mephistopheles cavern to burn for eternity."
In this same thread you've also said…..
"Satan cannot resurrect the dead, but the God of the Bible can and will resurrect every human who has lived and died."
So Heaven and Hell do exist but are unoccupied for now until everyone who's ever died are all resurrected at once at some point and sent to either? Or they simply don't exist?
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John Owens
Heaven is real, but is not a place where dead humans go. Several words have been translated Hell in the English bibles, but not one of them means anything like the Hell in Paradise Lost, which was a satire making fun of the beliefs of the people. Yet, that is how most people prefer to believe. They like to use the threat of being tormented in fire, but not dying or burning up, forever. Even a wrathful God is not that cruel. The fact is, the two words "immortal" and "soul" are not found together in the Bible. Inherent immortality is the lie the Serpent told Eve, "Ye shall not surely die." The Bible says, " The wages of sin is death..." It does NOT say it is eternal torment. I do believe in resurrections (plural), as those are scriptural, but for now, all who have ever died, except for Christ, are still dead, and waiting for those resurrections. Saints will be in the first resurrection, and will be raised immortal.
The second will be a massive general resurrection, comprising probably 98 percent (that number is a WAG on my part) of humanity. This number includes all the people with whom God never had any dealings whatsoever. They did not all go to Hell to burn forever and ever. They died just like Abraham and Moses and David. The scriptures, absent of mythology and tradition, tell a very different story than the charlatans and those who make a living off those who try to seek God.
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Tom
If you spend any amount of time in a public restroom checking out the gender identity of others, you are the problem. You, not them! Do your business, wash your hands and leave the room. Thank you.
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hsw
Thank you. I said much the same in another area of this thread.
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M
Regarding my last post, I would like to add, to all you atheists, if muslims rule, you would be force to accept their belies or be killed, and you would also have not right to study your science, they believe the earth is still flat. so i think you guys all need to focus on that.
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Carol Amina
Mary, Because I can see by your posts that your not well studied in either the Bible, Quran nor even basic English. I have decided to see you as a child who is more in need of love than criticism. So I am sending loving and healing thoughts your way in hopes that you will feel some peace with yourself and others. I hope others in the group will do the same. She is worthy of love.
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M
oh, you are very wrong, as i have studied the bible, the book of Mormon, the Rosicrucian studies, enough of the Koran to know about it, i have even read enough about the founding fathers who read the Koran and they too rejected it, i read the mystical life of Jesus, the secret doctrines of Jesus, the book of Jasher, and many many more most of which you most likely have never heard of so before you go making off handed remarks, you need to know what you are talking about. Further more, I dont have to be a drug addict to know how bad being a drug addict is and to not do it. you can know things by learning from others, you don't have to know things all the time by having first hand experience. There are things which are common sense for those who have common sense, and apparently none of you and your kind has.
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M
oh, so it doesn't happen, no, nobody will abuse the transgender law, not, then why are things like this happening more and more. A Man Said He Was A Woman And Strolled Into A Ross Dressing Room. Here’s What Happened Next. Monday, Lisa Stickles went to a Ross Dress For Less department store in Mesquite, Texas, where she claims management allowed a man, who made no attempt to appear to be a woman, into the women’s fitting room.
Stickles explained that upon informing management about hearing a man’s voice in the women’s fitting room, she was told that the man was “representing himself as a woman today,” and that she should wait outside the fitting room if she felt uncomfortable, reports 11 News.
“I was in the dressing room, when we heard a man’s voice,” said Stickles. The manager “told me that if I felt uncomfortable in the dressing room with him there… I’d have to wait until he’s finished.”
Upsetting Stickles further, the man who walked out of the fitting room “was in no way dressed as a woman,” she said. “He had on jeans, a t-shirt, 5 o’clock shadow, very deep voice. He was a man.”
In Stickles’ view, it was clear that this man was exploiting the transgender bathroom and fitting room policy put in place by Ross, but when asked to comment, a customer service representative refused to address the legitimate concern, only saying that Ross does not “discriminate against the transgender community” and that “customers may use changing rooms that apply to their gender identity.”
“What about me? Or my feelings?” asked Stickles.
Short answer: They don’t matter.
Many on the Left have laughed at the claim that predators would abuse policies such as designated bathrooms, locker-rooms and fitting rooms based on subjective, self-purported gender “identity” rather than biology (or even what’s on your birth certificate, which can be changed post-sex-change surgery).
But clearly, this is already happening. In fact, The Daily Wire has reported another five instances where such exploitation took place, sadly resulting in peeping and even sexual assault. The American Family Association also chronicled instances of malice by male predators.
Nonetheless, the Left is intent on forcing governmental mandates for such policies, silencing opponents with comparisons to Jim Crow bigots. Earlier last week, the Department of Justice announced a lawsuit against North Carolina for House Bill 2 AKA the "bathroom bill." North Carolina is also suing the U.S. government. Further, on Friday, President Obama, via the Department of Education, declared that facilities in public schools must be open to "gender identity," rather than biology, or said schools will face potential lawsuits and the loss of federal funds.
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M
their are two point here you are missing, the first one it, that how do we enforce what somebody does int he public bathrooms if we stop enforcing the behavior of who we let into the bathrooms, we also cant be sure that child molesters and rapists and other criminal elements are not going to abuse the privilege. once the victimization happens, it is too late for that person, all of you that agrees with this are a party to every body who is victimized, that is not being very compassionate for people who have been or you have made become victims. you have just victimize that person just as surely as if you had done the raping yourself. secondly the N Carolina law in question is not a law against rather or not freaks and perverts can or should use the opposite gender, though is it in part about that, but it is mostly about ensuring our Christian values, which is under attack, and any of you who are Christians needs to recognize how important it is to make sure that you have the right to exerciser your Christian beliefs. And those of you who dont like Christian values need to understand that if you have any religious moral values at all, they will be next, if you are an atheist,then you and all the others need to understand that we have freedoms of religion and that applies to all of us, would any of you like to be told that your religious convictions are not worth anything and you don't need to have your values recognized. and to you atheist, how would you like to not be allowed to even have your views on supposed science view points be recognized. I mean if they start interfering with one, then who knows where it will lead. You all need to realize that your rights are wrong if they walk over the rights of somebody else. everybody is entitled the right to their beliefs and all your pure pressure and pc is taking away that right, and that is unconstitutional. Not everybody can have everything they want all the time in any one society, but the majority of the people in society must be kept safe and their rights must be recognized, esp when those of a minority are by choice. And if you think that you are having a problem now, just what are you going to do if the muslims get into power, then non of you will have any rights, unless you become one of them, i think that it more important to be focusing on and not the pettiness of a few freak and perverts. who will be killed by the muslims anyway if they get into power. and i think all of you should be focusing all your efforts to making sure that the muslims don't come in and take over. but with many of you, maybe that is what it will take for you to appreciate what you have now, that is if you live though it. them maybe you will appreciate the freedoms that the modern Christians int he US have allowed you to have.
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hsw
Going to have to leave this one to Carol Gore because I'm not even sure what it says.
I do think I've managed to discern that mary believes we are all atheists if we support the right of LGBT and others to live as the rest of us live.
As being an ally doesn't make me gay, and being an animal rights supporter doesn't make me a border collie, supporting the right of transgendered folks to pee in peace doesn't make me an atheist.
How Muslims got into the discussion I'll leave someone else to sort out. It just leaves me perplexed.
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Carol Amina
hsw, First wow my last name is in here? How the heck did that happen...oh well what's done is done.
Mary seems to be very fearful. The people I worked with in mental health for over 20 years who talk this way are deeply afraid. It seems she feels alone and sees anyone who is not of the same belief system as she is to be "the devil". I'm sorry for her at this point. It must be horrible to see a demon under every bush.
When I was much younger and on my spiritual journey I was a member of a fundamental Christian church for 15 long and paranoid years. It wasn't until they told me I needed to turn my back on my daughter and grandson because my daughter was in a guy relationship that I woke up.
I remember how anyone or anything outside there bible box would get them all worked up and angry. Everything they did was based in the fear that they would be punished by there angry jelous god.
As to how Muslims got into the discussion well ....from her point of view maybe she sees them as another threat to her "freedom". Again the more I read of her posts the more convinced that she needs help, love and kindness.
If we came upon a scared, owned animal and it bit us out of fear, would we not have compassion? Or would we blam it? It just a question I'm challenging myself to.-
M
maybe that happened to you from a church and i am sorry for you that you picked the wrong spiritual guidance to follow, they needed tell you or anybody to stop see family. that is just wrong, family if the number one of importance their is, then church comes next then the outside world. but you are wrong about me being scared because of fundamental religion, as i am no into fundamental religions, in fact as I said before I am a little into religion from the standpoint of understanding them and their view, and choosing some to follow them of what I choose to follow, but I don't follow everything from them, I am mostly into mysticism, and I have a wide open mind regarding the realities of what is going on in the world. I am alone in the world, it is just me and my mother, and I am responsible for our well being, so you damn right i am scared for our safety. I am not scared for our spiritual well being though as that is the only thing I am certain of but i am still mortal and I can still be hurt. and for you to make more out of that is just part of the problem. I have been hurt, but that is not why I object to the immorality of society, that affect everybody and if I have children in the future, I don't want them living in Sodom or Gomorrah.I don't like the idea that If i have children raised in a den of serpents, that will increase the chances of bad people praying on them and other people in society, I also am concerned about them not becoming a pervert because of society and their lack of being able to teach other in society to become perverts. As this way of life not only bring no good to anybody, but also brings down their character, and I want my off springs to have high standards and character and having high morals is the why to high character. And if there is any truth to salvation, then I would like to teach my off springs the way to salvation. And I have that right to expect and pass my belief about standards off onto any of my off springs I want. And all you people are trying to prevent me from having the right to do that, and that is what is wrong.
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Carol Amina
I'm sorry your alone Mary. I understand that feeling very well! I am now after being a mental health social worker for close to 25 years a full time caregiver for my father who is 85 and has Parkinson's. My whole life was devoted to helping to protect children from all kinds of abuse and when they were victimized more often than not it happened within there own families, churches and communities.
Your right again that you have the right to think and feel however you see fit in regards to what you see as moral and godly. I was over reacting at first because like you I have vary strong feelings about what is right for me and my family. I have family members who are gay and transgendered, and I've seen first hand how hard things can be for them. A man who was my protector when I was a child was gay and he was beaten to death in 1979 by a few men who saw him kiss his 20 year partner good bye while dropping him off one morning to work.
Yes Mary I get my feeling hurt around this subject for vey personal reasons. But I would never denie you your right to have your own thoughts and feelings. I only ask that when we disagree we not call names, throw stones or as you say bully.
Peace
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tam tam
I'm afraid if I had went to the womens room during cancer treatment and was bald like an eagle I looked liked a man. So far the only people thrown out of the women's room has been women. There is great debate at WWGHA if anybody is interested. Why Won't God Heal Amputees?
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M
that is why most hospital bathrooms are private, and they usually dont put boys or men in with girls or women in the same rooms as another. the bathrooms are generally used one at a time and usually only for the ones in that room or their visitors, and they usually go in one at a time.
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Carol Amina
I would like to add one more thing. The children in my neighborhood (back in the 60's) were all attending the same Sunday school. There was a teacher there that lived 3 doors down. From the outside he was the model Christian. A man who seemed to be so kind and caring for the kids. The littler ones clung to him. I have always had a sixth sense about people and would get physically ill when ever he came near me so I avoided him. One day my mother sent me to look for my sister who is 4 years younger than me. She had been seen playing in his back yard so I ventured behind his house. I heard voices coming from his basement so I peeked in the window. I saw him sitting in a chair touching himself while he was telling my sister to touch another child who was naked. I yelled and hit the window with a tree branch and broke it. My sister came running out with the Sunday school teach close behind with his penis still out of his pants. I grabbed her and the other child and we ran.
The other child's mom called the police but no one believed me. He was after all the head of that big Christian Church's Sunday school. He continued to molest children for years.
I have also witnessed a Catholic Priest touching a friend of mine when I was 7. I ran away and never went back to that church. But I still didn't decide that ALL Christian men were evil.
Mary maybe you had some bad things happen as a child that causes you to be afraid of people who are not just like you? I don't know.
Sorry if what I shared was offensive to anyone it is not my intention to offend.-
Brother John
I'm in the habit of scrolling past the comments of some posters, but always read yours, Carol. Thank you for sharing your experiences with us. As we're here reading and posting about the "immorality and perversion" of LGBT folks there are "men of God" molesting children and scarring them for life. As in your experience, most are never brought to justice due to their credentials and status. As most of the vitriol about sexual perversion is from Christians, I suggest they should be loudly and publicly calling for the arrest and prosecution of these depraved and disgusting monsters, hiding behind their veil of piety and position instead of wasting their time and energy on a non-issue like transgender washrooms.
So how about it, Christians? As the source of much of your moral outrage about sexual perversion is the Bible, why not focus on your own religion/church? Do a Google search for "sexual abuse (name of your denomination)" and turn your anger and disgust to the source of much of it. This is not only criminal and immoral, it's also disgustingly hypocritical. Your average sexual predator does not wear religious garb and preach to others about morality, sin and damnation. They aren't posing as "model Christians" as Carol pointed out. They are not shielded from prosecution by their church. Here's a sample of what you'll find….
Catholic http://bishop-accountability.org/priestdb/PriestDBbylastName-A.html
Methodist https://www.rt.com/uk/262809-methodist-church-sex-abuse/
Anglican http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/15/damning-report-reveals-church-of-england-failure-to-act-on-abuse
Protestant http://shoebat.com/2014/05/06/sexual-abuse-protestant-churches-catholic/
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hsw
As a child, I attended church every Sunday without fail, accompanied by the mother who turned a blind eye, and the deacon/lay minister/Sunday School teacher/pillar of the community who was abusing me at home. It's unfortunately not only the ordained who hide behind the veil of religion and respectability.
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Carol Amina
I'm sorry that happened to you hsw :-( it saddens me to think of you or any child being abused. My mother was also my abuser and everyone including my father turned a "blind eye". But I believe now that it was what drove me to do better as a parent and lead me to do Social Work. I am in no way saying it makes us better or stronger. Just the path that some of us had to go down. I can only send a hug and hope for your peace and healing.
Sincerely Carol Amina
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Carol Amina
A heart felt thank you to my Brother John, As a mental health worker for over 25 years in youth services I met children and adults like myself who had there innocents taken by members (men) in the Church. I saw the toll it took regarding trust and faith. For that very reason I have always been in constant seeking to find a safe place to worship or believe. To this day I am almost 60 and have only found it safe within myself. Faith is personal and for the life of me I cant understand why we as humans cant just let it be! Why are humans always trying to get others to join there club? I dont see Lions and Birds trying to shove there life and nature down the gullets of other beings? Maybe that is a bad example to use. Some might argue we are not animals, but I say we are. Anyway thank you John. I read your comments as well. :-)
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M
so It doesn't happen, huh, from the freaks, well then what is this?http://gopthedailydose.com/2016/04/29/texas-transgender-caught-taking-pictures-13-yr-old-girls-target-lgbts-leader-born/
TEXAS: Transgender Caught Taking Pictures of 13-yr-old girls at Target – LGBT’s Leader: She was born…
Apr 29, 2016 by Clyde
A transgender ‘woman’’, James Goebel, was caught taking photos of teens girls using the restroom at a Dallas area Target store.
One of the victims, a 13 year old girl, said she could hear someone’s iphone camera snapping and was curious, so she looked under the stall only to see the camera phone in her face. She ran out and told her father, who held the door shut until police arrived.
When authorities arrived, they arrested 28 year old James Goebel and searched her phone for evidence. They found over 700 photos of young girls using the restroom, from dates ranging in the past 5 months
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Carol Amina
mary, over and over you go.... round and round.... it must be so very tiring to be you. I wonder if you sleep? or ever find time to just chill and not be filled with hate and fear? the LGBT's are not out to get you! or anyone for that matter. Nor are the Atheists, Muslims, Jew's, Buddhists, Satanists and so on.
In fact mary if you lived next door to me I would great you at the mail box with the same respect I give any other person. Even knowing as I do that you would sooner shoot me than to stand near me.
Jesus came to heal you Christians say. I hope you will find some healing in your faith. Peace -
angel
No different then the freak priests in the Catholic church who molest little boys all in the name of God. You can't judge a whole population of people based on indiscretions of individuals. Nice try though, looking forward to your next excuse!
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M
We must all need to suppress our animal nature. this is why many of the laws in the bible were written, so we can better our selves, so we are more then just animals. and here is an example of that.
http://gnosticwarrior.com/egyptian-gnosis.html-
Carol Amina
Only humans war for Religion, Animals do not have such flaws.
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M
http://altreligion.about.com/od/beliefsandcreeds/tp/9_satanic_sins.htm
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M
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/06/04/how-to-bury-a-satanist/
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M
http://aleteia.org/2014/09/26/what-do-satanists-really-believe/
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Brother John
Wow mary. You only need 16 more comments to hit the 100 mark and a new personal record. The server has been advised to add extra storage space and we're all rooting for you.
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Carol Amina
;-) dont encourage her John! she is one of those who loves to hear herself talk, and type. its the marys in the world that keep us at war.... she is kinda a donald trump .... loves to incite hate and fear.
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Tracy
You are so right, Carol!
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Carol Amina
I wish I was not Tracy. I feel aggravated at first when I read what mary and some others write, but it quickly turns to deep sadness. I try to remind myself that I must not focus on that negative hate speak and rather focus on what we do want. Peace, Love, mutual Respect and Harmony.
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John Owens
It is so funny and so sad at the same time that many people today are so immature that they think they know more about what is good and right than Moses, who was and IS the Gold Standard for a prophet. AS they spout their "enlightenment" they reveal that they think they are wiser than Moses and Solomon, and more merciful than the Creator. At the same time, they contradict the Creator, try to obfuscate and annul the Creator's commands and pronouncements, and THEN try to use misquotations and misinterpretations of the words of Jesus and Paul to reinforce their feeble rebellious, evil arguments. They will answer for all of it, and I'm sure God will have mercy on most of them, but they will feel really stupid and embarrassed when they stand before the Judgement Seat.
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angel
A prophet is a man. Moses was a man who was on a mission to save a bunch of people, probably not worth saving. And when he couldn't control them, he asked God how to do that. God gave him a bunch of "rules" and then he carved it on a stone. Then he got mad when he came back and they were worshipping something else, because he was gone for so long and they had no idea if he would come back or not. So he went on the mountain again and did it all over again. And at some point, his anger issues made him responsible for killing another human being, which is why he wasn't "allowed" to go into the promise land, even though in order to have the promise land required the slaughter of communities of people, innoscent children and animals in order to keep their "race pure". And didn't God specifically tell him NOT to kill? Sounds like a real winner to me!!! I'll tell you what, when Moses becomes "God", or at least keep God's commandments then we can talk about his validity :)
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John Owens
Mystic Angel, Thank you for commenting.
Specifically, Moses did not go to the Promised Land because in Numbers 20:1-12, when there was no water, God told him to speak to a Rock (which many consider to be Jacob's Pillar Stone, [ liafail formerly in Westminster Abbey under the coronation throne}), but instead of speaking to the Rock to cause water to flow, he struck the Rock with his staff. It was that specific disobedience that did it. You'd have to read it in context. It wasn't JUST because he hit the Rock instead of speaking to it, but it was what he said when he did it. It was as if he was claiming to be God. It had nothing to do with killing, whatsoever.
God's commandment in Exodus 20 is usually translated, "You shall not kill, " but that is technically incorrect. It should read, "You shall not commit murder." Of course, don't take my word for it, but consider this: It would be silly to command not to kill, without qualifying that with something. You wouldn't be able to step on a bug or drive a car or set a mouse trap or harvest food or fish or defend yourself from anyone or from a wild animal. For any organism to live, others must be killed, not indiscriminately of course, but the fact is there.
If you are going to talk about scripture, your knowledge of it could use some fine tuning. The absolute best way to do that is to actually read it, or if your eyes get tired, like mine, get it in audio.
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angel
So what your saying is that God is so shallow that he will punish a man because he hit a rock instead of wanting to look psycho and talk to it instead, that he would be denied a wonderful life and simply IGNORED all the murder and slaughter of all them people, including his own??? Your kidding me, right??? Please, noone cares about your poitical correctness because most of the translation is wrong to begin with. And obviously, people like you are so prideful that all your concerned about is being right, that common sense simply goes out the window! You want to know what I really think? I think that Moses people finally stopped following him, conquored and destroyed an entire land and took it for themselves and Moses either walked away or wasn't invited to join. Who would? But I never quoted scriptures, I simply gave a paraphrase of what the story was about. And personally, I think it's sickening to believe that God will allow such death and destruction but get mad over such a petty act of whether or not to talk to a stupid rock or hit it! Forget the fact that Moses willfully murdered one of his follower's. Your about as nuts as Moses or the God you follow!
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John Owens
Well, Angel, you have a really twisted way of looking at things, and you draw conclusions about people that have no basis in any facts already in evidence. Everyone here can sense your sexual frustration. I was enlightening Mystic Angel as to the correct version of events. As to your opinion of me or God-- I really don't care what you think, because you are obviously deluded, deranged or mentally unstable. God will probably forgive you because you are messed up. I don't know why you would call me nuts because I told the story correctly but if that is how you judge people, you are terribly, hopelessly ignorant and shallow. I hope you find effective therapy. Maybe start by finding some at least temporary relief for the hysteria.
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hsw
Don't worry about him angel722 - he defaults to insults when he's wrong and has no further arguments except "I'm right and you're stupid."
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Brother John
That Moses was something wasn't he John! The Gold Standard for sure… One of my favourite stories about Moses is in Numbers 31 THE MIDIANITE MASSACRE …. Man, you talk about kicking some ass. None of this namby pamby "rules of engagement" crap. Sure there were other bloody massacres, but this one had the captured virgins.. WINK WINK The Midianites did not make any aggressive gestures towards Moses and the Israelites. Moses was angry because their woman were too friendly. He blamed the temple prostitutes because his men were having sex with them. (See "The Women of Moab". Scripture confuses Moab with Midian) Whether it was Moab or Midian, it still comes out the same way. So he sent 12,000 soldiers on God's command, telling them to kill everybody, burn everything and take whatever booty was useful. Instead, his wussy commanders brought back the women and children, besides their spoils. This made the already psychotic Moses even angrier.
So he ordered his commanders to kill all the male children, and all the women who had slept with a man and keep the virgins, including the little girls, for themselves. His men were to remain outside camp for seven days to "purify themselves and their virgin captives". WINK WINK WINK The Israelites collected a booty of, 808,000 livestock and 32,000 virgins. Let us make a crude estimate that virgins constitute one fourth of the female population and ratio of males to females is 50-50. This would mean that the total population of Midianites was about 250,000. Numbers 31:49 reports no soldiers were reported missing. There must have been almost no resistanc mounted by the defenceless Midians.
It's a good thing that Moses didn't "obfuscate and annul the Creator's commands" like the immature lefty liberals of today would have done. They wouldn't have the stomach for killing women, children or even the puppies and kittens. None of that love thy neighbour nonsense that feeble mind's attribute to Jesus (aka God) and Paul. I'll bet if you were there with Moses you would have showed those guys how to treat captured virgins. SIGH… man, those were the days.
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John Owens
Spoken like a true communist lefty, Bro. The Midianites were rather like ISIS, and kindness was a weakness then as it usually is now. God created people, and has the ability to resurrect people in a different world where they can be taught what is good and correct, as He will you at some point. It is not evil for God to decree that certain people be put to death. Moses was doing the Will of God. I don't expect you to understand it, because you are polluted. You will die, as will every human. What you do not know or want to know is that you will be resurrected eventually to a world unlike this one, where you will be shown what you have done and what you should do. Then you will choose to listen to the Instruction of the Almighty. Or maybe not. If not, you will go to a final destruction. For now, you need to take a sedative. Check your blood pressure. Have a laxative. Stop trying to convince yourself of things that you do not actually believe.
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Brother John
A "communist lefty", John? I suppose that's more adult than "idiot", "snot-nosed spoiled brat" and whatever else you've spattered amongst otherwise intelligent posts here, but it's still ignorant. Like most Christian apologists, you failed to address the incredible barbarity of your Gold Standard hero and his/your God, other than condoning and accepting it as "God's will".
How about this contemporary of Moses carrying out "the will of God"?“ Was he Gold Standard as well? He actually was a Christian, unlike Moses. "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.” –Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942).
Should we warn your neighbours that it's possible that God might suddenly command you to kill them all, including their pets, and keep their possessions and virgin daughters for yourself? Or are you sane enough to disobey what you perceived as "God's command" unlike Moses and other true believers?
Regarding your advice to me…. there was nothing in my post that would indicate the need for a sedative (unlike some others here)….. I do have elevated blood pressure, but I check it regularly and it's under control (but thanks for the advice) …… only people who are full of crap need a laxative (you might want to read through your many posts) …… although it's very likely that we just fade to black at death and return to stardust, I hope if there is a "world unlike this one" that we go to, it's not inhabited by psychopaths like Moses, Hitler, Drissa Coulibaly and the God of the Bible.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/01/31/suspected-serial-killer-of-20-victims-now-in-custody-says-god-instructed-him-to-cut-off-childrens-heads/
Here's a fairly extensive list of killings done directly by, or at the command of, the biblical God….
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.ca/2010/04/drunk-with-blood-gods-killings-in-bible.html
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John Owens
Yeah, well if you don't believe in God, I wonder why you bother with "ministry". The sedative recommendation was for your hysteria. Like most people with nothing productive to do, you get all worked up from your study or desk, and deliver pseudo-intellectual rants like a sophomore who thinks they know something because they read something or listened to a speech. Reality is not where your focus is, and understanding is not what you seek. Seems you read everything BUT the Bible, and that is why you are so unbalanced, and brainwashed. I will pray for you. I am sorry for any unkind words I have said, but you are hopelessly adrift in your philosophy.
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Brother John
In response to your May 23, 10:09 am post, ordination with the ULC is open to everyone including Pagans, Druids, Atheists, and more, John. This is not true of Christian churches. I've always wondered why Christians, and particularly those ordained by a Christian church, would be here other than to proselytize and fulfill their perceived obligation to warn non-believers about burning in their imaginary Hell.
FYI, I've read the Bible from cover to cover, but admit I browsed past some of the most boring parts in the OT. More importantly, I've researched the origins and history of the Bible and understand it to be a corrupt, inaccurate blend of heavily edited mythology, recollection of dreams/visions and "history", written by around 40 different men. There is no "original" Bible. All extant manuscripts are copies (of copies, of copies) with thousands of errors, omissions, additions and contradictions amongst them. To identify it as the "word of God" requires an extraordinary amount of belief without evidence (as does the existence of God). Contrary to what you've assumed about me, reality, understanding and truth are very important to me. Belief is not.
Although your reference to my "getting all worked up", "ranting", "hysteria" and "pseudo-intellectual rants" are a step up from "snot nosed brat" "idiot" or "disabled" as slurs, they are only your opinion and do not define nor offend me.
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Carol Amina
Why do you "assume" that Brother John or I am not believers in a god, or goddess? or some kind of higher power. I cant speak for Brother John but I do have a sense of Higher power or more a collective consciousnesses.
Just because we dont follow your doctrine dose not mean we are lost except maybe by your standard. I am not sure who you think died and left you god or christ. that's the thing John O you and mary and others like you have no ability to accept that others have a right to not be YOU. -
John Owens
Carol, why do you come into a discussion that does not involve you , without reading everything to do with it, and then try to take a side, when Brother John and I are quite capable of discussing our differences as adults, without having to rehash stuff that is a week old? Please relax and stop trying to stir things up. I really am trying to be nice. John and I have become close to civil with one another, and you are trying to ruin that. Please stop.
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John Owens
The fact that you compare Moses to Hitler should make alarms go off in your own mind. It shows how far you have been led into radicalization. I'm guessing you think you know of someone better fit to reveal and perform the word of the Creator than Moses, and a kinder, gentler, more merciful loving God than the One in the Bible. I submit that you are deceived and that you unknowingly are worshipping the god of this world, also called Lucifer, the Adversary, the Destroyer, and Satan. Satan cannot resurrect the dead, but the God of the Bible can and will resurrect every human who has lived and died. That includes the good, the bad, the old, the young, and the unborn. When He does, most of them, who died not knowing Him at all (because they were deceived, and He allowed them to be deceived) will be offered their first real chance at living. That will include you and hsw, and Tracy, and the others. In spite of your present state of mind, you have the potential for Eternal worth and value, given the right opportunity. Your eyes will be opened then, and you will comprehend things that you do not right now.
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Brother John
What I find mildly, although not surprisingly, alarming, John, is the ability of "Christians" to ignore uncomfortable reality and facts, as you have done here (to avoid alarms in your own mind I suppose). I provided a clear and accurate comparison of two instances in which horrific slaughter occurred based on God's perceived will. Both Moses and Hitler were able to set aside their morality and basic human decency to carry it out. Although it's likely that neither of them personally did any of the killing, they were able to convince their followers to do it for them. Germany was one of the most Christian nations on earth in the early and mid 1900's. Unlike the barbaric and ignorant horde commanded by Moses, the Holocaust was perpetrated by Christians, who now prefer to use the term Nazi to distance themselves from the ugly truth.
They were apparently both well suited to the job so, no, there probably wasn't a "better fit" than Moses or Hitler. I'm calling you out on this point and on your depiction of a "kinder, gentler, more merciful living God". My May 20 post includes a link to the plethora of death and destruction attributed to the biblical God.
I challenge you to spend some time reading through it and explain these blatant contradictions about being a loving and merciful God as well as the parallel between Hitler and Moses.
FYI John, I don't worship "the god of this world" (who you believe to be Lucifer aka Satan). I don't worship Thor, Zeus, Vulcan, Neptune, Pluto, Jupiter or any of the thousands of mythical gods that were believed to exist either. As one of your favourite authors says….
“We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.” ― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion
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Carol Amina
You can't say I have nothing to do with this, you don't know anything about me. And as I said my late reply to Thi has to do with time. People like you hate it when others voice there truth and feelings don't you...you only make me more interested in anyone who calls you on your crap.
As far as brother John being civil he has been all along, it's you, mary and a few others that have taken to name calling and trying to demean anyone who disagrees with your dogma. -
John Owens
Geez, Carol, I knew you couldn't stop, even though I was trying to be very sweet. Apparently you don't respond well to sweetness. That's because of the world in which we live, I guess. I'll try not to be condescending, but Brother John's post just above your last comment would tell you why I didn't think he believed in God, and there was a prior one to which I was actually referring which prompted your previous reply. Of course you have every right to comment. It IS a blog, but I just have some objection to you interjecting yourself into a previous conversation which you did not read at the time it occurred, so it is all out of sequence to you. If you want to buddy up with Brother John, why don't you just get his number and call him? As for jumping up and down on me, if that is therapeutic for you, by all means, live it up, but please try not to feel superior just because you took someone else's side, who is quite capable of holding their own without you. That is not the way it works. You said, "You can’t say I have nothing to do with this, you don’t know anything about me. " ( I would submit respectfully, that YOU know nothing about ME, even though for some inexplicable reason think that you do) "And as I said my late reply to Thi has to do with time. People like you hate it when others voice there truth and feelings don’t you…you only make me more interested in anyone who calls you on your crap." ( I have not been CALLED on crap. I WAS accused of name-calling, which I DID, AFTER someone like YOU called names. Now, I should NOT have allowed that uncivil behavior to provoke me, as I am not allowing YOU to provoke me, but I did, and I said I was sorry and it is now YOU who keeps trying to keep the LACK of civility alive. I'm not attacking you at all, just asking you VERY NICELY to stop it) "As far as brother John being civil he has been all along, it’s you, mary and a few others "(OTHERS that side with YOU) "that have taken to name calling and trying to demean anyone who disagrees with your dogma. "(And THIS is what YOU are doing, and I am trying to step back and call for civility, but YOU are one of those who does not want to listen or be nice)
Now, I am going to make a prediction: I predict that you will continue to try to provoke me, because you will not be able to stop yourself. I hope that I am wrong, but I doubt it. I'm sure Brother John is getting a kick out of this. I think I would be, if I was him.
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hsw
Dear Carol, welcome to our messy little sandbox. FYI, when John Owen says "someone like YOU" he's referring to me. When you find time, please scroll back through the comments and see if you can find even one instance where I called him, or anyone else, a name. I challenged him to do so after he made that accusation, but all I heard was crickets chirping.
PS: Yes I'm still here - I'm just not wasting my energy on pointless back-and-forth with someone who is so sure he's right that he doesn't "hear" any opinion other than his own, which, ironically, is the same "sin" of which he accuses others.
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John Owens
hsw, you're trying to be a jerk again, but I'm not buying it. You just can't stand nice, but I'm gonna smother you with it.
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John Owens
hsw, here it is, this is where YOU started it:
hsw
May 4, 2016 at 9:36 am
Oh good. Another name-calling troll. Change is actually usually good. Society evolves. Evolve with it or get left behind, on the wrong side of history. Happy trolling.
YOU called me a name-calling troll in response to THIS post, in which I did not call anyone any names. Here it is:
John Owens
May 4, 2016 at 9:32 am
Yes, by all means blame Republicans because the left keeps trying to conduct these wacky social experiments, and the Republicans are so stuck in their ways, that they won’t just go along with any stupid weird thing that comes along. CHANGE IS SELDOM GOOD!! If you had any powers of observation and reason you would see that. This kind of idiocy is about to come to a screeching halt and you don’t want to be on the wrong side of it, which you are now. It was fine BEFORE people started messing with the established social order.
I didn't call any names. YOU did. You accused me of doing what YOU did. I reacted. Then later, I realized I had let your immaturity irritate me to the point of acting out myself. Please don't think act like that. I won't.
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hsw
I'm not engaging - just wanted everyone to know who the players are. I'm actually a big fan of nice - but I'm not buying it either. Bye Felicia.
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Brother John
John Owens…...You've sidestepped my challenge (again) to your statement that Moses is the "Gold Standard" prophet and that there is nothing "kinder", "gentler" and "more mercifully loving" than the god of the bible. Well, not entirely. As the Creator he can also take us out anytime he gets angry and vengeful.
You said it's not evil for God to decree that certain people should be put to death.
The example I gave (the Midianites) didn't involve "certain people", did it? It was the indiscriminate slaughter of an entire population, including women, children and livestock, but excluding the virgins, which were kept as spoils of war with God's blessing.
You had little response to my May 20 6:16pm post comparing Moses (who you brought up initially) to Hitler other than suggesting that I'm deceived by Satan aka Lucifer. Please re-read this post and explain how Moses is praised and glorified while Hitler is condemned and demonized for very similar actions both based on the will of God (and in Der Fuhrer's case done as a Christian, not a Jew as was Moses)
I had also posted this link, that includes the slaughter of the Midianites (#28) amongst many others perpetrated by God which you did not acknowledge at all. I find all this slaughter the antithesis of kind, loving and merciful actions. Your comments?
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.ca/2010/04/drunk-with-blood-gods-killings-in-bible.html
You said… John Owens May 5, 2016 at 12:24 pm "Just BTW and FYI, Jesus WAS the God in Genesis. Ref Heb 1, John 1, and many other verses but those two are the most obvious and easy to remember."
I'm not sure all Christians would agree that God and Jesus are one in the same, but if so, it soils the reputation of the kind, loving Jesus beyond recognition as they then both fit Dawkin's description as…. jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
It's becoming difficult to find responses in this massive thread (thanks in part to mary's prolific commenting) as there's no chronological order. I did post to both csrsports and john owens with a few questions and statements far above this one. "Brother John May 26, 2016 at 1:05 pm I’ll put my responses in point form, csrsports. in case you choose to respond in kind."
I welcome any responses to it in the form of healthy, intelligent discussion.
I would personally never revere, worship or obey such monstrous deities as described in the OT of the Bible(or elsewhere). Thankfully none of them exist other than in the mind's of those who continue to believe the unbelievable without evidence. They, like the hundreds of myth based "religions" before them, will also fade into obscurity at some point in the future and are hopefully replaced by rational thought and an energized quest for truth.
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John Owens
Brother John--Deu 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD (YAHWEH) knew face to face,
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Brother John
John Owens May 31, 2016 at 11:40 am "Brother John–Deu 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD (YAHWEH) knew face to face"
This does nothing to back up your previous assertions. Quoting the Bible to prove it's own veracity is a meaningless exercise. As usual, those making preposterous claims simply ignore any challenges that are presented and carry on with their delusions/beliefs.
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John Owens
Geez, Bro John, where would you have me go to come up with an acceptable proof? You can't refer to National Geographic, Wikipedia or the Christian Science Monitor or anything like that to come up with criteria for a prophet of God. I seriously doubt God Himself would stoop to trying to prove Himself to us, since He has no need for us. You refer to different people as authorities on religion or arguments against it. I refer to sacred writ. The historical fact that Moses existed and that he was the leader of the Exodus cannot be rationally disputed. You can sling mud or manure at his legacy if that makes you feel good or justified in your beliefs. You are free to choose to whom you will listen, and welcome to it.
I would just caution that it is possible to throw out the baby with the bathwater. I know how much fun it is to argue if you have nothing more to do, and it's fun to play "Gotcha" on this or that, but the people to whom you give credence should be able to show good fruit (results) for their life, teachings, philosophy, lifestyle. The teachings Moses gave us protect us from most transmissible diseases, degenerative diseases, cholesterol, laziness, drunkenness, burglary, rape, chronic welfare cases, property disputes, theft of land, public corruption, and teach a reciprocal form of justice for civil disputes. Not one of the present world's leaders even has the cojones to tackle most of these, and I am sure none of the people you cite have anything to offer along these lines.
Granted, Moses' teachings were not followed by many generations, but the ones who did had prosperity while they were doing so. The Northern Tribes forsook them and went into captivity and have been scattered among the nations and basically lost to history. The Jews forsook them and were carried off to Babylon. They returned and for a generation or two, followed and prospered, but then became corrupt. The fierce Muslims later tried to build their own system on top of Moses' teachings but they do not follow Moses' teachings except where it suits them. I do not propose we return to the Torah, because that would be far too extreme of a shift, and most would rather die than try to do as he said, but in day -to-day activities and civil law, the closer we adhere to them the better off we are.
You wrote in an earlier post that you had read the Bible through. I applaud that, but as you must have realized by the time you got to Leviticus, it is not a book you read through once and then understand it. If you read it for 40 years, you may have some understanding of it, or may not, as in the case of most religions' adherents. They read but do not understand. Some of it depends on attitude. If you read it looking for flaws, you will find or invent them. If you read it looking for confirmation of your present beliefs, you will also find or invent it. If you read looking for God's Word, you will be confused, because WHATEVER you have been taught, you will find things that are contrary to it. It is not for everyone, and even Jesus said, "NO MAN CAN COME TO ME, EXCEPT THE FATHER WHO SENT ME DRAW HIM..." That is why missionaries, no matter how successful they may be in gaining converts, are ultimately failing. If God doesn't draw you in, you cannot force your way in, and no one else can do it for you. His book is written so that we may have some excuse for our disobedience, in order that He may forgive us in the second resurrection, and may THEN write our names into the book of Life.
I think you have a hard head and a stubborn mind, but I appreciate the opportunity to converse.
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Carol Amina
You did it again! I really love how you find the Quotes and hold the mirror up to these guys Brother. Thank you :-)
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John Owens
I will reply to one of your earlier questions, asking why I thought Bro John didn't believe in God. Because of this statement by him:
"I would personally never revere, worship or obey such monstrous deities as described in the OT of the Bible(or elsewhere). Thankfully none of them exist other than in the mind’s of those who continue to believe the unbelievable without evidence. They, like the hundreds of myth based “religions” before them, will also fade into obscurity at some point in the future and are hopefully replaced by rational thought and an energized quest for truth."
Without being critical or judgemental, this paragraph well MIGHT cause a stranger to think the author does not believe in God.
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Carol Amina
Im thinking I need to join that true communist lefty club Brother John is in. it seems to make much more sense than what John Owens and mary are up to. wink wink
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Brother John
You're always welcome, Carol, but understand that you must also be a libtard, hippie, tree hugging, Satan worshiper capable of rational and critical thought to qualify for membership.
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Carol Amina
Oh for sure Bro John! I was told " politely " by John Owens that I need to shut up and not join in the discussion that is between you and him. So I'll just hug a tree, smoke a bowl, and read.
Peace Bro -
Brother John
This isn't a private chat room, Carol. You can jump in anytime.
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angel
John, I have a question for you and this is a serious question. If God is truely the God you and Moses describes, then why would he give us freewill and then punish us for "choosing wrong"? What would be the purpose in it? On a greater scale of things, if God wanted us to be exactly like him and pure, he would have never allowed satan in the Garden of Eden. But suppossedly he was allowed in there to temp God's people because God wanted them to follow him by their own freewill, not be drones...true? So, if God wants us to follow him on our own accord, how could he punish us for not chossing what he wants us to follow? Wouldn't that make freewill conditional, in which cause would make freewill completely moot? And if everyone is created in God's image and he loves everyone, why are some worthy to live and some not worthy to live by not choosing right? If one group of people is above another group of people, then God has favorites? And wouldn't that make his favorites love conditional since is solely based on reward and punishment? None of this makes sense. Now, what does make sense is that all of the teachings come from men that come from a country you are currently at war over and rooted from two religions you despise. Yes, even though Islam may be newer then Christianity, both Islam and Christianity are both rooted from the beliefs and traditions of the Middle East and Judaism. This is why Moses felt it was ok to kill "sinners" and not look at them as fellow brothers and sisters. In fact, unless they followed his belief system, he did not look at them as fellow Children of God. In fact, he never looked at them as God's creation at all, which makes it easier to slaughter a group of people with no regard. This is also why it was ok to have slaves. It was ok to have multiple wives. It was ok to have sex with your daughters in order to maintain racial purity. Do you see where I am going with this? The same moral ethics you despise today are the same moral ethics that he followed and encouraged. (Not just him but the entire "bloodline" of Jesus. And if God told him to do all all of this, that would mean that God did not love his creation, only the newbies that he planted on this planet to do his bidding by wiping out everyone? Killing them in order to save them? Did you feel this way when that woman from Texas drowned her 5 kids in order to save their souls? It's the same thing, which seems very unbecoming of such a wonderful and loving God. The point, at what point do we realize that these "higher prophets" were men and maybe made some mistakes. Is it possible that maybe Moses got tired of hearing his people whine and cry because they had no home and they wanted the land for themselves and just took it? Could it be possible that Moses was psychotic? I mean, ISIS comes in and kills thousands of people all in the name of their God, and this makes them crazy or evil, but elevating a prophet who conquored and destroyed a whole colony of people (same as ISIS, all in the name of godly purity, per sey) yet he is revered almost as high as God? We say that ISIS is a threat, yet they are the same group of people, same traditions, just a few variations of it, yet the core values and lifestyles are the same, same justification for Godly purification. I guess I don't understand what makes one a pillar of godlyness and the other evil. Now we could swing this story another way, Maybe Moses was a peaceful man who was simply looking to help out a group of people and they got out of his control. Maybe he was against the slaughter and wanted nothing to do with these people which is why he didn't go into the "promised land", perhaps this was his way of washing his hands of them and the blood they left behind in their wake. Kind of like today. Europe saw a repressed group of people, "victims" that were being bullied, so everyone comes in and welcomes the refuggess with open arms and the refugees causes major problems and get out of control to the point where these countries have to kick these people out just to protect their own from rapes, kidnappings, ect. I can't say one person is right and the other wrong, because we really don't know the intentions of Moses and we never will. But what we do know is what was written, and even that is subjective, but he at least had the blood of one man's on his hands and God did NOT tell him to kill this man. To be in a battle and kill a whole bunch of people, especially small children, you'd have to be really emotional shut down or just evil to be able to do that. I seriously doubt that God looked down and found joy in this slaughter IF he truly is the loving God he claims to be. It's insane to believe that such a pure entity filled with so much light would be this dark. It almost makes one question who or what they are truly worshiping. LOL, I just have one more thought. But, what IF, there is reincarnation, and what IF Moses people actually are the reincarnation or at least the bloodline of ISIS? Same thing, different time. Conquer, control and destroy, history repeats itself once again. Maybe it's not God wanting all of this, maybe it's simply the immaturity and mankind as a whole. Think about it! . I'm not here to change your mind, simply offer a different perspective and some food for thought. It's easy to read stories, but when you walk in other people's shoes and actually placing yourself as one of the one's doing the slaughtering, watching yourself do it, could you actually kill liitle Sally down the street because of what her mother did? Could you still stab her with a dagger while she stares at you in utter fear while her blood spills on the floor and do nothing, or take joy or pride in that? Or how would it feel if someone invaded your home and slaughtered your family while making you watch and knowing you were next and there was nothing you could do about it? When you get beyond the heroics and face the reality of these situations, you start to realize that this can't be right. Ask any Vietnam vet who actually was thrown in the midst of the battle. Most of them can't even face themselves for what they were forced to do. I'm assuming that if Moses was a decent human being, he didn't look at himself as a hero, all he saw was the killer he actually was, just like many of our vets. At this point, we start having to take in the human factor of it all and ask ourselves, if God really wanted this, then why does it feel so wrong? If God wants us to be filled with love, then why is he asking us to do things that will completely close our hearts to that love? By the time God got done trying to force people into being loving, peaceful and obedient human beings, the heart would be so closed off and cold that the soul would be dead before that could actually happen. So you have to wonder, is this really God's plan, or perhaps the desire of one or many men (mankind). Ok, I'm done, but just some food for thought.
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hsw
There has never been a war based on religion (and they almost all are) where the aggressors didn't believe they were doing the "will of God." My personal favorite was the "convince them all to be circumcised, then kill them while they're in pain" gambit. Now that's a fair fight, right? That's Genesis 34:25 for anybody who wants to read a really scary bedtime story.
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Carol Amina
Bravo Brother John! I love it when you put the truth out there. I love the way you write. Get um Bro!!
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John Owens
HSW, in Genesis 49, Israel (Jacob) cursed Simeon and Levi's actions on that occasion, as he prophesied what would be the circumstances of their progeny IN THE LAST DAYS. There is no such thing as a "fair" fight, anyway, else fights would never end. Wars are fought over land, water, resources, and religion or some "moral" cause used to justify them, even in civil wars. Sort of like left-leaning people claiming that right-leaning people are bigots and racists and ignorant, and right-leaning people claiming that left-leaning ones are amoral, stupid, secular, and communists. Those are the "religious" arguments between us, when what we are fighting over are actually physical resources and material wealth (in this case--gender-segregated restrooms). That fight cannot be justified on any moral grounds, other than what is mine is mine and what is yours is yours. I will not try to take yours if you will not try to take mine. YOU allow trannies to go to the bathroom with YOUR children, and I will not with mine (although MY children are grown, but I have grandchildren now). This is really off topic but I didn't begin this branch of the discussion. I just want to bring some reason AND a tiny bit of knowledge into this emotionally charged blog.
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hsw
Tiny it is, John - your knowledge, that is - what's a "trannie"? You try to present your "side" as non-bigoted and yet you cannot get through a post without name-calling of the most derogatory kind. There are transvestites, and there are transgenders, and they're not the same, but I'm pretty sure you don't care, because the end game is the same - only people you approve of should share your bathroom, or any other part of your tiny little world.
Not sure why you shouted "IN THE LAST DAYS" - we all hear you just fine.
You're speaking for yourself when you say this is a "religious" argument. Also speaking for yourself when you claim it's over resources. I'm pretty sure there's no shortage of restrooms. This is exactly about morals, no more or less than the civil rights battles of the previous century (that continue today) were about morals. You may equate "morals" with religion - I don't. I equate what's moral with what's fair and right, and in this case it also happens to be what's legal under Equal Protection clause of the Constitution of the United States.
You are as much a waste of time and energy as your friend mary. I've stopped engaging with mary, as she doesn't have conversations, she has monologues, and conversations with the voices in her head. I'm now going to stop engaging with you for pretty much the same reason.
Have a nice, limited life.
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M
all you jerks talk about you not wanting to believe i have any credibility, well as far as i am concerned none of you have or ever did have any credibility. none of you are experts in squat, so none of you have any credibility that is why there is so much dissension in the ranks.
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John Owens
You are a hopeless jerk, h. You call people idiot and I don't know what all, and then try to correct me on the nuances of trans, transgender, trannie, crossdressers. Those fine points of your vocabulary mean nothing to me or my grandchildren. I don't want a TRANS-anything in the bathroom with my grandkids. I didn't insult anyone. You just try to make it that way. The reason I typed IN THE LAST DAYS is because I don't see a button for ITALICS here, and wanted to emphasize that Jacob was speaking of the end time. Then you bring up the Constitution and refer to moral as legal. I'm pretty sure you think the death penalty is immoral, even though it is legal. You are a snot-nosed spoiled brat with no friends and no hope. You just try to pick at anything because you are bitter and hopeless, probably either disabled or a tweaker. I've tried a whole lot harder to be nice to you than you have to anyone else, so I'm still by far the much bigger man, and will remain that way because I am both a man and a believer. You are immature and right now, worthless to yourself and anyone else. You should really see a counselor.
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hsw
Kindly show me where I have called anyone a name? I have been called many names here, but have never once called anyone else a name. If I'm wrong please show me.
Your friend mary calls people idiots, among other things, and you have called me many names and gone on such an angry rant that I truly do feel sorry for you. It really must be horrible going through life so angry at people you don't even know, and believing untrue things about them because it's the only way you can reconcile all that anger.
So...please show me where I called anyone a name.
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M
Megachurch pastor Robert Jeffress made his views clear on the transgender bathroom debate while delivering a recent sermon.
Charisma News reports that Jeffress, who is the pastor of First Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas, plainly spoke about the transgender bathroom debate and what he believes God’s Word has to say about it.
"It's not that confusing. In Matthew 19:4, God's Words are applicable. The Bible says 'God made them from the beginning male and female.' Not male, female and question mark. God has determined how many sexes there are—there are two, not three," Jeffress said.
"Gender identity confusion is an emotional disorder, that should be treated professionally and compassionately,” he continued. “Gender identity confusion should not be exploited by social activists like those in the [President Barack] Obama administration who want to deny the God-given distinction between the sexes. This is a rebellion against God's plan." A number of other Christian leaders and Republican lawmakers, including Franklin Graham and Iowa Representative Steve King, have spoken out against the Obama Administration’s directive that public schools accommodate transgender students.
To watch Jeffress’ entire sermon, see the video below. Dr. Robert Jeffress Addresses Transgender Confusion (5/15/16) from First Dallas on Vimeo.
Publication date: May 19, 2016
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Carol Amina
It seems to me that Everyone who is agents Trans-gendered folks rights is assuming that we all live by or 'should" live by the Bible and Christian doctrine. This country is made up of many other kinds of faith and or those who are agnostic or atheist. We don't all have to follow the rules that the Christian church sets and follows.
Just like I would not ask my "Christian" friends to join me for a Tarot Card reading because its agents her beliefs, she would not ask me to join her "prayer meeting" because they use the Bible. Its about respecting each others differences and living in peace. The kind of insults and hatred that is flying back in forth here is sicking to me. My Christian Friends are not so hateful and unkind. They tend to be more loving that those Fundies I see in this group. So very sad. No wonder we have the problems we have in our country right now. Mean spirited so called Christians spreading hate and fear.
I'm doing my best to ignore those haters and what there saying on this matter. I enjoy the writings of intelligent and thoughtful people. -
Brother John
Excerpt from the Wikipedia bio on Dr. Robert Jeffress….. I'll be skipping the video
"While a pastor in Wichita Falls in 1998, Jeffress sought to have two children's books about children with gay or lesbian parents removed from the public library by checking out the books and paying for them rather than returning them to be recirculated. Following publication of the story by news media, the library received multiple copies of the books as donations and demand for the books increased significantly." Way to go, Bobby!
Jeffress has claimed that Islam "promoted pedophilia" and has been accused of reducing "Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists and virtually everyone else" to members of cults.[10][11]
In 2008, Jeffress, in his sermon "Gay Is Not OK,"[12] stated, "What they [homosexuals] do is filthy. It is so degrading that it is beyond description. And it is their filthy behavior that explains why they are so much more prone to disease."[13]
Also in 2010, Jeffress referred to Roman Catholicism as a "Satanic" result of "Babylonian mystery religion".[17]
In October 2011, at the Values Voter Summit, Jeffress called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) "a cult." He received widespread criticism for the statement, but has not retracted it despite Mitt Romney's request for him to do so.[18]
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John Owens
I'm going to have to look in on Jeffress. He seems to have a little more on the ball than the average preacher.
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Brother John
Have you scrolled down to see Pastor Stephen Anderson in action, John? Neither Bob nor Steve are your "average preacher" as both were suggested by mary, who tilts precariously towards the extreme. I posted some of his bio under the mary's video and encourage you to do some serious research before subjecting yourself to the mesmerizing preaching of these modern day prophets.
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John Owens
At the risk of subjecting myself to verbal persecution from what are falsely known as Christian fundamentalists, and also from the New Agers, I have a rule of thumb or two regarding preachers --If they teach that mankind is inherently good--false prophets. Man has the potential for good and evil, but is not inherently good. --if they do not teach that Satan exists and works to destroy mankind--false prophets. -- if they teach that Grace and Law are opposed to one another, I consider them false prophets. --if they do not practice and teach the Commandments of God, which include the weekly Sabbath, the Holy Days, instructions regarding idolatry (which include witchcraft, palm-reading, astrology, animism), I consider them false prophets. --if they do not teach that sin is transgression of the Law--false prophets --if they teach that humans (or any other creature besides a spirit) possess immortality, I consider them false prophets. --if they do NOT teach that the planet will eventually be ruled by God and that His throne will be here on Earth, I consider them false prophets. --if they are philanderers, pedophiles, or polygamists, I consider them false prophets.
I do not judge anyone from a holier-than-thou point of view. I am flesh and blood, like everyone else. I am a sinner, like everyone else. It is not within a human to actually know what is good and evil. Those are things that must be learned. Humans can accept all manner of evil, if it is customary in their culture. If something is not customary, they will think a practice is evil. Making something customary, though, does not make it good.
I will listen to anyone long enough to see from whence they come, but I give them no credence at all if they violate any of the rules above. You can call that close-minded. I call it well-grounded. There are absolutes--absolute good and absolute evil. There also exist areas where circumstances are factors. Even a well-grounded person makes allowances here and there, or else they are a fanatic, and most likely are misguided. In any difference of opinion, WHO is right does not matter at all. The only thing that matters is WHAT is right. Sometimes that is obvious, and sometimes it is not so obvious. From time to time, we just have to try something to see whether it is right or not. Social experimentation is like that. The really sad thing is that when a social experiment goes poorly, rather than revert to when things were better, a society will instead go deeper into the experiment, as if that will make the mistake work better. That is what many people call "progressive". Such a terrible waste.
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John Owens
I believe I have fulfilled that request.
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Brother John
You've hit a new low, John Owens by using "disabled" as an insult. That is pathetic and you should be ashamed of yourself. The only reason you might be "a bigger man" is your over-inflated ego and the fact you're full of crap.
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John Owens
A) If I weren't the bigger man, you Chihuahuas wouldn't be yapping at me. B) I didn't used disabled as an insult. You TOOK it that way, you prick, because of your weird liberal sensibilities. I was trying to fathom hsw's compulsion for constant argument.
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Brother John
B.S. John…. Here's the context….."You are a snot-nosed spoiled brat with no friends and no hope. You just try to pick at anything because you are bitter and hopeless, probably either disabled or a tweaker." You started your post with "hopeless jerk".
Using a whole string of disparaging slurs including "disabled" is no way to fathom anyone's compulsion. You were called out for yet another instance of immature behaviour and rather than addressing hsw's challenge to back up your claim, you spit out more grade school nonsense (including calling me a prick!).
prick (prĭk) n. 1. a. The act of piercing or pricking. b. The sensation of being pierced or pricked. 2. a. A persistent or sharply painful feeling of sorrow or remorse. b. A small, sharp, local pain, such as that made by a needle or bee sting. 3. A small mark or puncture made by a pointed object. 4. A pointed object, such as an ice pick, goad, or thorn. 5. Chiefly British A hare's track or footprint. 6. Vulgar Slang A penis. 7. Vulgar Slang A person considered to be mean or contemptible, especially a man.
Perhaps you meant definition 2a and were feeling some sorrow and remorse for not responding as an adult, but I'd guess you were once again stooping to "Vulgar Slang".
I showed your comment to a friend who is disabled (cerebral palsy) and she thinks you're a "low life sack of shit" (her words not mine). I'll stick with pathetic.
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hsw
I wish you could "like" comments here. Your disabled friend would fit right in with my disabled friends. Peace.
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John Owens
Again, I used it as a possible excuse for your bitterness and juvenile arguments, and everyone knows that is how I used it. If they don't, I have to assume they are functionally illiterate. As to the comment about your mother, I assumed you were one of those forty-somethings who lived in his mother's basement because he is too anti-social and spoiled to have a job. Having said all that, please read my last post from yesterday, in reply to Bro John. I am sorry I am so easily provoked into unkindness and that is certainly not my goal here. I am unhappy with myself for saying anything offensive and I think it is immature and uncomely. For what it's worth, I was REacting to you and others and NOT being who I try to be. I have repented and ask your forgiveness. Whether or not I receive it, I will NOT react that way any more on this blog. Again, I am sorry.
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Carol Amina
There is the name calling again from mary and john owens. lol they really do shine as true christians. cant seem to allow others to disagree with them unless they start name calling. wow no wonder the christian church is on it way out.
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John Owens
You're about 3 days late, Carol. I notice you call people haters. That little superiority thing is working really well for you. Very attractive and intellectual. I won't stoop any lower than that.
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Carol Amina
True John Owens,
I have a full time job and care for my father who has Parkinson's as well so I don't have lots of time to read and post. I did in fact call people who spew christian balderdash haters. Mainly its because of people like you and mary that I left the church. I became aware that there was more hate and violence in the christian church than I was ever going to be able to identified with.
As for you stooping low well now John Owens don't you worry yourself about that. I try very hard not to stomp on bugs because even they have a right to live. So if our paths were to cross I would treat you with the same respect as any other living creature.
Peace and Blessings-
John Owens
I love the word, spew. I never get tired of it. It just makes it seem like there is a torrent coming from someone, as though what comes from other ISN'T spewing. I tried to make nice, but it seems some people don't really like nice, and I allowed them into goading me to not be nice. I pity them. I'm going to be nice anyway. I'll just crawl over here and watch the other bugs. Glad you aren't one of those hating name-callers. Have a wonderful day. Mine is glorious.
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John Owens
I called you jerk, snot-nosed spoiled brat, but I didn't call you anything else. Your own attitude is your biggest detriment, and you try to use insults instead of logic and/or facts. You never answer anything but you yack all the time. You are a waste of my time, and again, you are lumping me with someone else who is nothing like me. I have too much to do to spend my time in these unmanly games. It has been really something, but I don't know what to call it. Say hello to your mother for me. I'm sure she's upstairs washing your clothes.
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hsw
My mother died in 1967 you despicable piece of dung. She's buried in Arlington Cemetery. There. Now I've called you a name. And I am well and truly done with you. And yes I lumped you in with Mary. You're exactly like her but you're too blind to see it.
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M
http://www.christianheadlines.com/blog/pastor-robert-jeffress-on-transgender-debate-god-created-two-not-three-genders.html?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=twpage&utm_campaign=chtweet
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JO-ANN
I have enjoyed this month....when you are not involved in the conversations.....its actually very funny.....but, lets be very honest......you are coming from two very different places of thinking......as Christians...we believe that we are in the END TIMES.......as in the days of NOAH...and, you others are just wanting a live and let live senerio to prevail.... the two shall never meet......In my humble opinion, we should protect ourselves and our children from .....the ones who will take advantage of this law.....thats it. Remember...that even though you may not be a CHRISTIAN.....YOU STILL BELIEVE IN GOOD OVER EVIL....lets let that be our common ground...may GOD the HOLY SPIRIT touch your soul...love JO-ANN
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Anonymous
I'm sorry, but I really don't see the Supreme Court entertaining the idea that access to a public bathroom is a fundamental civil right in the first place. Under the theory that separate but equal is not constitutional (i.e. Brown V. BOE of Topeka Kansas) we would have to say that having separate restrooms for men and women violates the law because it discriminates on sex. Frankly, I just don't see anyone with any common sense and a basic background in law entertaining hat as anything more than frivolous. So really, WHY are we talking about this?
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Natalia
Okay here goes, so everything is so cut and dry. I think not. Remember humans have free will. We are not G-d. Myself I was born different, physically genetilicaly and tested proven. I came into this world both genders. Neither did I ask for this or wanted this. But, mind you Iam now 63 years old. I have extensive religious studies, only to come to the submation.. who gave anyone but G-d the right to say that my gender difference is a abomination? Not any of you. And there is hundreds of thousands in this world all different. And to think our perfect almighty Lord, G-d, made me this way, and I believe as I was told, My, our Lord, and G-d don't make mistakes or abominations. So where do I fit? Oh to boot I am a minister, too. And happt to walk in my old body, and shoes. And when you can take a stroll in my life. Then you can talk about what you don't know or understand. Also I am not judging anyone, that is G-ds job.
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Tracy
Amen!!!!!
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Carol Amina
Peace and blessings to you Natalie.. I for one could no, would not ever judge you for your gender or genitalia. I'm glad your a minister and that you seem to have found peace with ourself and a knowing that you are made just as G..d intended you.
My heart aches for those and I've known a few who feel so lost and unloved.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. -
John Owens
I'm with you here. No one has any right to call you an abomination because of the way you are born, any more than your skin color, hair color, height, eye color or if a person has an extra breast or toe. I would not call you that. I would not think that. You are unusual, and our Creator is the author of variety. Each living organism is a miracle on its own, from the one-celled to the largest creatures, and among most humans and some of the animals, each is somewhat unique. I may be one in a million, and you would be one in a thousand millions or something like that. I think it is wonderful that you are different and are grown, roughly my age. Your being such a rare kind of person and living so long probably gives you insights and perspectives the rest of us might be able to understand if you explain them, but we can never know how it feels to be you, looking out through your eyes. I would think you would have an advantage over the rest of us when it comes to comforting others and maybe counseling them to deal with things. I don't say "bless you" very often, because so many people use it too often and it becomes corny, but I give you respect and I feel honored to hear from you and your life experience.
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Carol Amina
That was a very kind and respectful post
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John Owens
Thank you, Carol. I'm not really mean at all. You can't hear my tone of voice or see the compassion, joy or hurt in my eyes when you read my text, but it is there in my heart when I am typing. I resolve daily to be more considerate, and find myself failing in that before the day is over, and then feel regret that I may have missed an opportunity to encourage someone when they could really use some encouragement.
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M
https://youtu.be/FnV0WnEkmqw?t=1399
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Carol Amina
mary why do you keep posting stuff like this? Fundamental Christian bla bla ....for the funnies your preaching ....what they already believe....for the rest of us or shall I speak for myself, not interested nor will I wast time even looking at it!
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Brother John
May I first express my dismay that mary has figured out how to post videos. I expect an avalanche of them in the near future. In this gem, a single camera remains focused on Pastor Anderson for the entire hour of preaching (I only watched a few minutes to confirm my suspicions and scanned it to the end) and thought he may well have been preaching to no one but himself in his strip mall "church". Sadly, as covered in the second link, this "man of God" apparently packs them in, and like mary, uses the internet to spread "the Word".
Here's some information about the good Pastor to put the video and it's proponents in perspective, taken from Wikipedia with a link to the entire article posted at the bottom for those wanting more information about this deluded hate group and it's pastor. In the spirit of the ULC, some here have suggested that mary deserves our understanding and acceptance. I disagree. Her comments are often disgraceful, bigoted, hateful and ignorant. Although I normally just scroll by them, I have foolishly responded on occasion but will no longer do so as it always results in yet another disturbing diatribe from her. As an alternative to having her delusional ranting banned from this forum, I encourage everyone to stop reading and responding to her in the hope that she'll find another outlet. If there are any who agree with her "beliefs" please also consider a more suitable venue. Perhaps the Faithful Word Baptist Church hosts a forum for like minded believers.
"Faithful Word Baptist Church is a United States Independent fundamentalist Baptist church in Tempe, Arizona.[2] The church uses only the King James Bible and members of the church meet in an office space located in a strip mall.[2][3] Steven L. Anderson established the church in December 2005 and remains its pastor.
In August 2009, the church received national attention when Anderson shared that he was praying for the death of President Barack Obama in one of his sermons. The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) listed Faithful Word Baptist Church as an "anti-gay" hate group for the primary reason that its pastor proclaimed what it called "extremely radical stands", including the belief, based on scriptures from the Old Testament book of Leviticus (18:22 and 20:13) and also from the New Testament (Romans 1:26-28) that homosexuals, if judged according to the Law of Moses, should receive the death penalty.[4][5]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faithful_Word_Baptist_Church
http://www.phoenixmag.com/People/west-of-westboro.html
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Carol Amina
Thank you once again for putting many of my feelings to words. I'm not as articulate and knowledgable as you are on many of these subjects and do enjoy reading what you post. I agree with you regarding mary and will restrain myself from the impulse to read and answer her posts.
Thank you again for your perspective. Peace and blessings-
Brother John
Thank you Carol. Carry on bravely and may Peace be with you and yours.
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Jason Melkus
This is another issue that wasn't a problem until we had the "solution". For ages people had been using the restroom that matched their outward appearance and no one knew any better. Tot he best of my knowledge, no one was creeping in the opposite restrooms using the excuse of being transgender. Only since these bathroom bills have popped up has that excuse been cited, and, out of them, most of them were people trying to make a point that there is a problem.Creeping in a restroom is criminal regardless of gender. But in typical conservative fashion, create a "solution", to a problem we don't have, all the while ignoring the 3000 claims per year of pedophile priests, or the 30% of college freshmen that are sexually assaulted every year. It's not hard people, do what you need to do to be happy, and peacefully let others do the same.
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John Owens
There's nothing "typical conservative" about this. While I have no substantive disagreement with your post, I can't see why you would even mention conservative here, unless you want to put the blame for the controversy on conservativism, after you just said there wasn't a problem until someone came up with a solution. That was not conservatives who tried to fix what wasn't broken. That was the out of control administration who is desperately trying to tear our society down by pitting us against each other.
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Brother John
You brought up a couple of important points, Jason. I've posted this link on several threads that contained righteous Christian condemnation of "sexual perverts" and suggested they focus it on their own churches. As this is a database for only one church in a single country, it's hard to imagine the full scope of sexual predation not just by Christians, but by Christians ordained by their respective churches to provide moral and spiritual guidance to the masses (no pun intended).
http://bishop-accountability.org/priestdb/PriestDBbylastName-A.html
Perhaps "smokescreen" issues like this one are an attempt to draw attention away from the current U.S. (s)election process which appears to be narrowing to two potential candidates for POTUS who will replace the often vilified Obama. One is under investigation by the FBI and facing federal indictment. Her husband, a past POTUS, is a known sexual predator (do a quick search if this is news to you) who's crimes were routinely buried by his wife, who is also believed by many to be a war criminal (search "hillary war criminal" for verification). The other probable candidate is a narcissistic, megalomanic who's comments have already been fanning the flames of division, racism, violence and exceptionalism in a country already rife with them and more.
As the essentially meaningless labelling of Left/Right, Conservative/Liberal, Republican/Democrat continues, much of the world shakes it's collective head in disbelief and asks, "Is this the best the U.S. has to offer as the supposed "leader of the free world?"" WOW!!
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Natalia
Again all walks into you think perversion. Just once can't you open your eyes and minds. By the time you get the big picture, that everything is not cut and dry. We as human beings are so complexed that for many things there is no explinations. Learn to live with it acept it. Honestly its not your problem.you do not have to answer for others sins or misgivings. Before you pass judgment upon others, take a good long look in a mirror. For no mortal human can say they have nit sinned or perversed in one way or another. And i do think that jesus said. "He who is without sin cast thy fist stone". So start throwing them at the mirror first. And who is anyone to critize anyone until you have walked in their shoes or lived their life. Wake up or soon everyone will be led to the slaughter like.sheep!
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John Owens
Natalie, those who follow the trends put forth by people ARE sheep. I am not casting stones. I have had them cast at me. Either way, men and women are and always shall be different and grown men do not belong in the same public restrooms as little girls or grown women, and we certainly cannot allow teens to share the same, multi-use bathroom. Period. It is not about salvation, not about sin, even. It is just not the proper thing to do, and not very smart. It is stupid, in fact.
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Natalia
If one changes their gender or choose to live another gender is not your problem. Are you going to look in the stall next to you?, if so you break a law also. Peeping tom and invasion of their privacy. If you have a issue with them being in the same bathroom/restroom as you well then its your issue. Show me proof that any real trans/inter sexed women/men has raped molested or attacked another.. Most want to get in get done and get out. They fear others worse then you fear them.. All I say is walk in my shoes, I dare you try it. 63 years I have had this body, I have modeled, acted been involved in the media world (singer) and never once did my gender issues come into play... even at college did not once my gender issues come into play.. as I say try it.. other wise honestly don't judge.. and FYI I'm not a fundamentalist. I'm a reformed Jewish Rabbi.
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John Owens
It is not judging to point out that it is patently stupid to think anyone can possibly change their gender. The best they can do is pretend. AND-- you are just trying to pick an argument, but I don't really have time, so if you want to fuss, pick another patient from the asylum.
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Carol Amina
Once again you show your true colors and ignorance. One of those who think they and there so call god is the only right way.
People like Natalie are right...it's not your business....I say step off and pound sand...(wish there was a way to flip people off here) so consider yourself flipped off. -
John Owens
It is YOU, Carol, who show your true colors and ignorance. I did not say any of the things of which you accuse me, yet you say I did. That makes you the ignorant one. I don't know if you know the meaning of pounding sand, but if you do, only an ignorant person would say that.
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Carol Amina
I think it's funny when fundamentalist Christians call others "sheep".... Pastors call the people in there churches sheep....hmmm interesting.
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John Owens
You really are prejudiced against fundamentalists, aren't you, Carol? Isn't that bigotry?
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Carol Amina
I have about 4 fundy friends. And what I have observed in them is they are really kind and loving people. But they keep there brand of faith to themselves and don't try to pay god! They do good works! And really try to live with love and kindness. They have loved and respected me throughout my live and spiritual journey. But for that small handful of women I would think ALL Christians are hatful gay haters. I'm not gay but have two family members and a few friends who are. I have witnesses first hand the pray aways gay type people push one of my loved one almost to suiside. I worked in an abortion clinic in the late 70's and was beaten by a group of protesters on my way to work. I was scared into Christianity in the early 80s by a friend who gave me Hale Linsdseys 1980's countdown to Armageddon. And after suffering at the hands of a fundamental Christian church for 15 years left after my Paster attempted to rape me.
Yeah I have some pretty hard feelings about the Christian church. I am not saying that other faiths don't have those same issues, they do. But I'm tired of Christians acting as if they are little gods and only they know what is right for the rest of the world.
I seem to remember that Jesus was not about judging but more about love. That I find is missing from most of what I read in Christians posts. A few loving and from what I see as real Christians way in with kindness and inclusion. But mostly it's mean, hatful and condemning.
Your truth is just that yours. It is not mine and to be told that if I don't agree I'm going to hell is pure bull shit. So ok that makes me a bigot.-
John Owens
I answered your last BS rebuttal above, and so you told me to pound sand and that you are flipping me off. You are the ignorant bigot here. Your rebuttal here is so long, and assumes all this stuff I never said. This is paranoid obsession where you create in your mind all these things you believe that others think, so you never understand them or yourself.
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Carol Amina
Oh John don't get your holy tighties whities all in a bunch...your a godly guy...careful you will piss of someone holier than you and get struck by lightning {wink}
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John Owens
Again you make assumptions based on some kind of preconceived notion that has no basis in reality-- you are imagining my underwear. While I'm vaguely flattered that you do that, it has no real meaning because if you imagine my underwear you probably imagine everyone else's, so I cannot feel special that you do mine. The fact is, your preconceived notion is prejudice. It is not reasonable, rational, sensible, or even honest. I'm not angry at you. I feel sorry for you, that you do not understand the world in which we live any better than you do. I repeat, I don't think you even understand yourself. You are bitter toward people who have done nothing to you.
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Carol Amina
Not bitter or hatful. I am glad to let each person have there own beliefs as long as they don't try to condem others who differ from them.
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John Owens
I guess we sometimes interpret disagreement as condemnation. It is not the same thing, although... I suppose if you strongly disagree with someone, it would be difficult to disagree without at least the IMPLICATION of condemnation. Is it possible to think someone else is behaving like a complete moron without feeling at least a little bit superior? I think if we believe them to be acting like imbeciles, we HAVE to feel a tiny bit superior, because we are not practicing their imbecilic behavior with them. Even if that's so, it doesn't give us the moral or intellectual right to dehumanize them or bully them. Still, if we do not voice our disagreement with their beliefs we are silently condoning them, are we not? It's just difficult to be TRULY superior and transcendent while involved in any social intercourse with those who are not, or who simply don't agree with us. Can we grow just a tiny bit here, in this blog? Maybe not, but we MUST hope. If not, we admit the futility of our existence. I'm not talking Kumbaya or We Are the World, but it would be nice to talk like adults with manners and social skills and all that. Have a nice weekend Carol, and all. "Ah'll be Bach!"
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hsw
I figure she called the underwear right. No one so bitter and angry could be swinging free.
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John Owens
Now hsw is at it again. I have not expressed any bitterness at all on this blog or any other, and yet you say I am bitter. Also, you are imagining my underwear, based on some prejudiced bigotry which is what you accuse others of having. Don't think I've had any whiteys for about 44 years now, not that it makes any difference in a person's personality. If y'all don't have anything more important to consider than my shorts, you are truly blessed.
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Donna
OK.. I have a better question. Why is this a problem now??? Attention away from who's running for president?? I am sure people have been using the bathroom according to their orientation for a long time.. If a person is transgender how would anyone know unless they were peeping toms.. Now, if you are a peeping tom in a bathroom, you might get hurt by my guy friend, but you would get hurt looking through my window too.
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hsw
It's a problem now because of the recent laws that have been passed. I don't believe it's a distraction - actually I believe they thought other things would be a distraction from these laws and that they could do this mostly unnoticed.
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angel
That darn adam's apple gives it away every time!
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hsw
Not every time. For those who transition before puberty, it doesn't develop, as it's part of the male anatomy that comes with the testosterone of puberty. Often, even into the 20s, if hormone therapy is started, it won't develop, or at least not to the degree to be troublesome.
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mary
rep·ro·bate (rĕp′rə-bāt′) n. 1. A morally unprincipled person.
- One who is predestined to damnation.
adj. 1. Morally unprincipled; shameless.
- Rejected by God and without hope of salvation.
tr.v. rep·ro·bat·ed, rep·ro·bat·ing, rep·ro·bates 1. To disapprove of; condemn.
- To abandon to eternal damnation. Used of God.
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Carol Amina
Look Mary can use a dictionary!
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Natalia
What the hell is wrong with all of you?. Are we not humans?suppose to be the most intelligent species on this planet. But yet all of you argue like children. Grow up people, get the big picture. Its the goverments who are dividing us. Bathroom rights and privilages. If i need to go i as a human will go where i wish. Or i will do it right on the floor or ground. The only thing indecent about all of this arguement is all of you tossing words and phrases around like your G-d well guess what you have no place to judge anyone. Try cleaning up your own room per say before cleaning up everyone elses. Period!!! I have lived 63 years in a couple months to say. And not once have i ever had any issues with going to any choice of bath/rest.room. why does it matter?the people in the past was smart unisex bathroom/plubic toliet and baths. And they survived many cultures. And our almighty did not strike them dead. Now act like you have some sort of compassion. And stop judging each other.
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Natalia
Okay, okay so you have your point, all of us does. But, again I have to question one who says pretend?? does this not make Everyone wonder??? no one who would wish to pretend to live a life as this or any gender related person does. its a very thought out very studied and strenuous process. Do you even have any clue how much that they go through?. no you do not care. I almost never judge, but for once I am going to. A judgment in the fact.. you are clueless. you remind me of Donald Trump. or Ted Nugent, and many more right wing fascists. May the Lord, G-D have pity on your soul. I pray to Father Abraham that he begs for your mercy.. for you are clueless. I fear people like you who wants it their way or no way. actually I am saddened.. America the great bah.. founded upon the belief that all is created equal. You know what is equal? not a thing..your equality is how much money you have or how good your credit is. Like I said until you walk in their shoes or my shoes, live their life or my life, you have no bearing upon any one. Try reading, studying, learning, because maybe you can show compassion in which it seems you lack ...there is nothing pretending upon one wishing to be equal in mind body and soul. and if you try to come back with well what about mylife. I have no clue to your life.. I have never walked or lived in your shoes.. and as I see I would not wish to. As for me you can say as you wish .. I have no worries I made my peace a long time ago.. yada yada yada as so it goes..
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mary
You are the one who does not understand, all the conservatives, even Father Abraham and God would agree, we are doing Gods work and God's way is only one way, God never said you can have it your way and still obey His laws and go to His Heavenly Kingdom too. In fact it is said the only way to Heaven it through Jesus and His teaching, now you can choose to now follow Jesus's and God's and even Abraham's teachings, but they won't get you into the Heavenly Kingdom. Gods laws are constant, they are the same yesterday, today and tomorow, there is no flexibility. the only person who is spreading that word is Satan the deceiver.
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Carol Amina
Mary, You assume we all believe in or follow the same God and teachings. We do not! Your God, and you bible are not mine. Your right to believe, worship, and follow is safe with me. I would never tell you your wrong to feel the way you do. You religion is personal and no one has the right to push you, bully into changing it. I am only asking for the same respect. Can we fine peace even in our differences? I can only hope. And because there was no way to comment on JohOwens post to me I say thank you for extending what I would consider an olive branch. As I have said John, I have friend of whom I love dearly and deeply respect who are fundamental Christians. I have a brother who has been a Calvary pastor for the last 40 years, and a cusin who is now retired but was a Baptist Minister for just short of 60 years. They know me, and still love me in spit of our not being on the same page regarding Jesus. I wish you peace John, and blessings to your loved ones as well! And add I think I see a heart under there am I correct.
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M
I know we don't all have the same religious values, but most all religions except the very primitive have some values on privacies and if they don't they are not going to advance much.As far as your thinking that some of us is better then others and that is suposed to be a bad thing, well I have news for you, there are some of us which are better then others. nowhere in the scriptures have i seen where Jesus said we are all the same, in fact i know some scriptures that read kind of like this. God is the leader of all the God beings because he knows the most, and because he knows that all His spirit children are not all the same either, and he could see some have tendencies to be leaders while other don't but have other tendencies, so he said let them prove themselves, let them come down to the earthly realm and see what they can do, those who can lead will find a way to lead while those who don't won't make an effort,but the have the opportunities if they apply themselves. So no we are not equal, and God never said we were, he said that we would have the chance to overcome inequities for those who really applied themselves, and some had to work harder than other but the chances are still there. However far too many would rather hold grudges and try to take advantage of any system out their and confuse their minds with perverted ideas rather then to find constructed ways to use their efforts.I am not the one forcing my religion onto another, I am protecting my value after people like you are threatening them, my religious values would not had even been imposing on you if you did not push your values on me. Think about that.
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John Owens
That's a pretty lucid refutation of the ideals of both communism and humanism, Sale. Not saying we agree on everything, but we certainly aren't all the same and some are pretty obviously not as good as others. I'm not pointing at anyone, but it's hard to deny what you see with your own eyes. Good job!
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Natalia
Ah but then here the proposal, which word is the right word? that is why we have religious freedom to worship how each feels and believes and also that one should not push upon another their belief. wait.. so if they are all right what is wrong.. I have lost real belief in any so called bible. each one has been altered as they go.. and in defense of that read the last 6 paragraphs of any bible from Constantine to modern day the riginal states in the end Revelations 22 17The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life. 18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, G-d will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, G-d will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. 20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”Amen. Come, Lord G-d. 21 The grace of the Lord be with G-d’s people. Amen. no place does the original speak of jesus.. so why did they change this few stances of word..
and i also remember this statement in all books from the Torah to the king james etc and so on and so forth "My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divination's. They will not belong to the council of my people or be listed in the records of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign LORD".
humm okay.. so I'm one who does not understand.. after 12 years of education in religious studies I guess im a dumb one.. thank you so much for the conformation of my assumed faults.. at least i don't demand everyone wear dresses or skits to their ankles or to have never cut their hair or that you can be a male and have 20 wives lets get real this is about a simple right to go potty in a bathroom in public for anyone who looks their desired look.. oh yes and their is this question. What do you do when your fears seem to be winning the day? What if you pray and G-d still hasnt come through for you? If you are like most people, you begin to lose hope, and you wonder why you bothered to pray in the first place. Think about it.
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M
Natalie, You are missing the point, Jesus says even if you have the faith of a mustard seed, the rest will build,if you fail to have the faith, then you failed yourself and God.It is like a marriage, if you don't keep working on your faith, it will fail, if you don't keep working on a marriage it will fail, a marriage, just like life is not easy, and that taxes faith, you have to be dilagent to the faith and endure to the end. Giving up is not an option if you want to reap the rewards, otherwise you are lost. and don't talk to me about imposing one's religious value on another, the atheists, and the non believer and the non christians and the perverts all do their share of pushing their values onto everybody else and expecting everybody to yield to them. It is not only just a matter of seeing somebody genital or not, it is a matter of those who don't want their genitals seen by others should not have to have it done and it is a matter that those who do pray on others and victimize others, we have to make it harder for them in order to keep it safe for those who are victimized, I don't understand how that is so difficult for all of you to understand and why you are so indignant to push your way onto others, your right end where ours begin. If you want to turn away from the word of God, that is your choice, but you have no right to impose your view of anti God onto any of us. If you don't care about privacy, that too is your concern, but you still don't have the right to push that onto the rest of us. go out and parade up and down the street naked if you like, and reap the consequences, but don't expect the rest of us to.
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Donna
No MAN OR WOMAN CAN SPEAK FOR GOD AND FOR ANYONE THAT SAYS THEY SPEAK FOR GOD, THEY ARE WRONG! THE MEANING OF ALL WRITINGS IS INTERPRETED BY MANKIND AND IS SUBJECT TO MISTAKES! MAN'S DOGMATIC VIEWS HAVE CAUSED WARS AND DISRUPTION FOR CENTURIES. IT'S UP TO EACH INDIVIDUAL TO SEE THE LIGHT AND PRACTICE ON AN INDIVIDUAL BASES WHAT THEY BELIEVE IS RIGHT...DON'T TRY TO IMPOSE YOUR DOGMA ON OTHERS.. IT CAUSES HATE, WARS, DISCORD AND COMPLETELY OPPOSITE OF WHAT CHRIST TAUGHT US.. WHO'S THE DEVIL NOW THEN?
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Carol Amina
Thank you Donna Peace to you..
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M
How do you know? God said He speaks through man, he speaks through His Saints, who are his messingers.
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Donna
GOD SPEAKS TO US AND WE CAN DEMONSTRATE THE SPIRITUAL TRUTHS BY CUTTING OUT THE MIDDLE MAN. MY PROOF, WHEN I TALK(PRAY) TO GOD, GOD ALWAYS ANSWERS ME.IN WAYS THAT ARE PERFECT, LOVING AND KNOWING....MANKIND IS FA-LIABLE..YES, AND EVEN THE SAINTS ARE TOO.. NO ONE HAS ANY AUTHORITY TO SPEAK FOR GOD, BUT WE CAN SPEAK TO OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN.DIRECTLY AND HAVE DIRECT ANSWERS. THE ONLY PRAYER JESUS TAUGHT US WAS THE LORDS PRAYER. IF YOU BELIEVE EVERY WORD OF IT AND DON'T TWIST ANY OF IT INTO A FAIRY-TAIL TO FIT MAN'S FINITE UNDERSTANDING OF SCRIPTURE.. YOU HAVE YOUR ANSWER.. I SPEAK TO MY FATHER(God)DIRECTLY, NOT NEEDING ANYONE TELLING ME THE MESSAGES. EVERYONE CAN DO THIS, BUT CHOOSE TO BELIEVE SOMEONE ELSE'S MESSAGE, RATHER THAN DIRECT COMMUNICATION.. OUR SALVATION IS A PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AND NOT DEPENDENT ON ANYONE ELSE TO TELL US TRUTH. THIS PRAYER IS NOT BEGGING IT IS AN ACKNOWLEDGEMENT WE ALREADY HAVE OUR INHERITANCE NOW. WHEN YOU DEMONSTRATE DIVINE PRINCIPALS YOU HAVE KNOWLEDGE AND NO LONGER NEED BLIND FAITH OR WRITTEN WORDS THAT ARE ALTERED TO KEEP US IN A SPIRITUAL STASIS. .ALL WRITTEN RELIGIOUS TEXTS ARE LIKE PHONE BOOKS, MANY HAVE CORRECT PHONE NUMBERS, BUT ALSO MANY WRONG NUMBERS TOO. YOU DO NOT NEED A MESSENGER CALL DIRECT.
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M
If many humans would stop doing sinful things that would keep them separate from God, then maybe, we could cut out the middle man, but as you well know many people are not only materalistic, they are narsistic,they have dilussions of grander, and they ignore what they get from God if it goes against what they want to do. they use cognitive dissonance to justify their belief and all kind of interferences that either keeps them from being in tuned with God, or they, like Moses runs into the wrong being and believe those being to be good and accept their words for what they hear and they are misinformed because they have nothing to go by. I used to be with a guy who did whatever narsistic thing he wanted to and the government people who coddled him enabled him to think he was right to do it, I talked to a disabled employment rehab councilor, who told me he acted the way he did because nobody told him other wise. the point is, unless you have something to go on, you don't know if you are on the right track in the messages you believe you are getting, even Jesus had to have training, and studied the ancient texts and applied them to his knowledge of what the father wanted him to teach. so you can't always rely on what you think you know, you ego may interfere. God know this, by man's history, that is why he has sent us teachers in the first place.
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Carol Amina
When you say "sinful" what you consider sinful may not be for me and many others. I'm sure man if not all would agree that murder would enter in as being "sinful ". Other crimes of brutality against other human beings and or nature could be considered sinful. But what gender someone chooses to call themselves or identify with or what activities to adult consenting human beings carry-on in their bedroom is none of our business and I would also like to say what God gods or form of warship a person chooses to do if Any is none of anyone else's business either. It seems that human beings are all too caught up in looking at each other and trying to control and rule them based on their own personal biases rather than allowing each other to just live and let live. Sinfulness is subjective based on one's personal believes for the most part . As is the word God.
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Donna
WE ARE ONLY RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR OWN THINKING AND ACTIONS, NO ONE ELSE,. AND NOT ADDRESSING OTHER'S SEEMING MISTAKES DOES NOT MEAN YOU AGREE WITH THEM.. SALVATION IS BETWEEN GOD AND EACH INDIVIDUAL, AND MORTAL MIND THINKING WILL NEVER HAVE ANY REAL AFFECT ON OUR ONENESS WITH GOD... SO FOR ALL OF THOSE THAT THINK THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR CHANGING THE WORLD TO THEIR DOGMA, RELAX, SPEND FULL TIME ON SELF JUDGEMENT AND YOU WILL SEE REAL CHANGE FOR GOOD IN THE WORLD. REV. DONNA
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Carol Amina
Dear Rev Donna, Thank you for your balence and clear reasoning here. I often get caught up in those who try to impose their truth!....
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William Waugh
really, this issue is a non starter--we already have widely used unisex bathrooms and individual stalls. problem solved. just post them all as unisex
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hsw
So what do you do when you're not in a place that provides same and it's illegal for you to use the one you identify with?
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William Waugh
when in rome.............
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hsw
What exactly does that mean in this situation?
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John Owens
Figure out what the locals are doing and try to blend?
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hsw
Those simplistic responses are both disrespectful of the people who have been victimized, and show total ignorance of the problem. When they are risking arrest for doing what logic and reason suggests, which is using the restroom of the gender with which they identify, it's not as simple as "when in Rome" or "try to blend."
That dismissal of the issue gives you firm standing in the "part of the problem" camp.
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John Owens
So, on the one hand, you want to make it overly complicated and dramatic. On the other, you want everyone to not make a big deal out of it and just accept it. That's also part of the problem. It can't be both ways.
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hsw
So, on the one hand, you want to make it a non-issue. On the other, you want to suggest that if it is an issue, it's simple to solve.
Once again, circular logic and I'm not going to play anymore.
Just because you have one, doesn't mean you need to be one. Untwist, dude.
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John Owens
You're the one being a prickette and arguing in circles. Take a nap, then, and come back when you're in a better, more rational mood.
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Donna
I agree William, I'm 70 years old and in all of my life this has never ever been a problem for me or anyone I have known. I think some topics are used to make some feel superior to others.. There are bigger issues to discuss.. like how can we get good medical care and medicines at a reasonable price, and stop the greed of those that are making a fortune off the middle class, elderly and ill people in the USA.
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hsw
Donna, with all due respect, do you live in an area with the discriminatory laws being discussed? How many transgendered people do you know? The fact that you haven't experienced it doesn't mean it's not a problem. I've never experienced racial discrimination - I'm white - but that doesn't mean I don't believe it's a problem, or recognize it when I see it.
I don't see caring about health care or any of the other problems facing us as an "either or" proposition. I can care about both, work for both, recognize both, and many other important issues of the day.
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Donna
I wouldn't know a transgender person if I saw one, When I connect to people its not by gender, its by seeing them as humans. I do live in the South where racial discrimination is running wild, but when I taught my students I was asked by my principal how many Blacks, Hispanics, Orientals and White children were in my class. I really had to sit and think of each ones face and only guess at their heritage. I believe when people stop thinking in discriminated terms one no longer see bridges, walls, or problems. I want to tell you a closely guarded secret. WHITE WOMEN WERE MORE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST THAN BLACK MEN! I have had pea brains in my life try to keep me down because I was a white female, but since I know my own self and capabilities I met each problem head on and went around it to achieve wonderful goals in my personal life. I would say if one encounters something that is uncomfortable address that problem when it occurs there are laws place and the police can arrest any gender for acting unlawful where ever they may be.
Rev. Donna
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William Waugh
thankfully, not too many trump-ettes on this thread !
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John Owens
But way too many Hillarites.
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Carol Amina
I think it comes down to trust for me. I don't trust the interiptation of others enough to take anything as "gods word or message" For that reason I'm just not able to follow any relogus practice other than my own. I feel quit well about the state of my soul...I don't believe in hell, and am sure I've been evolving as I've worked through many hardships in my life and hurt no one.
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John Owens
Carol, I know you don't seek my approval or validation, but you are correct when you say you don't believe in hell. The modern idea of Hell basically comes from outright paganism and is not taught in the Bible. The word Hell is used, but that is an error due to mistaken preconceptions among the translators. Generally, Hell in the Bible just means the grave (Hades, or Sheol) , and in one place signifies the restrained condition of fallen angels, but not humans, ( If I remember correctly, the Greek word is "tartaroo" or "tartaros", can't remember exactly), and in one refers to the burning of garbage, as in Gehenna, a word even our State Governments used as a classification of a landfill or dump. The idea that at the moment of death a person has to fly off to Heaven or down to some torment is TOTALLY heathen and not Biblical.
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Carol Amina
Thank you John Owens for that...and your helping to educate myself on the terms as well. I don't believe in the Christian version of salvation. I do believe we all have an eternal soul or life force that returns upon the death of our physical body dies to our life source. Peace and good day.
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John Owens
I can not disagree with your belief. Perhaps the details of what we believe are different, but the breath/spirit/life-force of all living creatures returns to the Creator. On that, though we use different words, the ideas are not so different. I think the life returns to the Creator, and it returns to the Creator with something like a chip, containing all of the information --DNA, background, creativity, personality, life-experiences, etc.-- so the creature can be recreated again at a later date for life in another world. This is what I believe is the real teaching of the Bible. I cannot blame others for not accepting it, since it is taught in so many twisted ways and surrounded by myth and superstition.
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Donna
Carol, I feel organized religion is big business and teaches us we need someone else or a middle man to guide us, when in actuality its to keep you locked in their organization. I do believe there are spiritual truths mixed into to the teachings of all religions,, but one has to glean the truth out of the man made dogma.(B.S.) If you hear phases like God works in mysterious ways, or believe it with just blind faith or if a fair-tale not prove-able fact is stated to make you believe then more than likely it is man made interjections(B.S.) to sway a person to believe a certain way to stay in the flock. God's principals work every-time via demonstrations. and once you start experiencing these principals it is knowledge and no amount of (BS) can sway your thinking. It is important to have your own connection or religion because your spiritual life is really just about you and God.(Source) In my opinion, Knowledge is the key and the power to true Spiritual growth..You are on the right track!!!
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Carol Amina
Well thank you Donna;-)
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William Waugh
nice Donna. i agree completely. sometimes the best way to experience god is to avoid religion altogether. no labels just knowing
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Joanna SGO
Hello everyone!
Really interesting to read all this. I do have a genuine question that I would appreciate your views on though having read most of the above thread.... In my church, like with most churches, we have a close community of regulars that come in. One of these people was born a girl and is now wanting to be a man. She's 19. As far as I'm aware she hasn't had any counselling about it, hasn't seen a doctor but talks about gender realignment surgery, has lied about officially changing her name by deed poll and generally comes across as very confused. One minute she's the girl, the next she's the boy (literally minutes apart, she has 2 online profiles on Facebook and constantly likes posts from both her profiles) she comes across as very immature and unwilling to make a clear decision. She has now asked about our policy for TGs using toilets. We currently don't have one as its never come us and we've never had TG people in the church. I don't want to rush into making a decision about it as its not only her I need to consider...it's the rest of the people who come to church I need to think about too. Everyone knows her but not everyone will know she wants to be a man. For her to just suddenly start using the men's toilets would be something she might get comments about in the toilets "wrong toilets my love, etc!" And i don't want her to feel uncomfortable or have to deal with comments. At the same time I'm not sure announcing that she wants to be a man is the right way to go so everyone there knows the situation and calls her by the name she wants to be known as?! So my question is...(and I've already tried google, which hasn't helped me in this occasion) do TG people have to "officially" become TG? Is there paperwork or legal documents they have to sign before they are considered TG? My concern is that she isn't making a clear choice...she says she feels like a man and wants to be a man but nothing has changed other than her second Facebook profile.. It feels like she's not serious about it and therefore I don't know how best to help her. She's not willing to talk about anything in depth. So it all seems like attention seeking. I hate feeling like this about the situation but I'm not sure how I'm supposed to treat it as a genuine serious issue if she's not willing to do that herself? I don't want any of my church family to feel uncomfortable and I know this needs dealing with in an extremely sensitive manner...I'm just not sure what's best.
Has anyone else had to deal with this? I feel if she was a bit more serious about it then it would be easier to sort out. But feel that if se wants to be a man like she says she does then she needs to be a man and not keep being the girl that she is.
Help!
Thank you in advance!
:)
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M
to john and everyone else who think i don't know what i am talking about, here is the facts by an expert, which non of you are in this same class. changing transgenders has problems as seen below, because transgender is a mental illness and needs to be addressed mentally. so to say that there is quick fix, if you pervs could just do what you want to do, well then you will live happily ever after,well as you will see,it doesn't work that way.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21364939 Long-term follow-up of transsexual persons undergoing sex reassignment surgery: cohort study in Sweden. Dhejne C1, Lichtenstein P, Boman M, Johansson AL, Långström N, Landén M. Author information Abstract CONTEXT: The treatment for transsexualism is sex reassignment, including hormonal treatment and surgery aimed at making the person's body as congruent with the opposite sex as possible. There is a dearth of long term, follow-up studies after sex reassignment.OBJECTIVE: To estimate mortality, morbidity, and criminal rate after surgical sex reassignment of transsexual persons.
DESIGN: A population-based matched cohort study.
SETTING: Sweden, 1973-2003.
PARTICIPANTS: All 324 sex-reassigned persons (191 male-to-females, 133 female-to-males) in Sweden, 1973-2003. Random population controls (10:1) were matched by birth year and birth sex or reassigned (final) sex, respectively.
MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Hazard ratios (HR) with 95% confidence intervals (CI) for mortality and psychiatric morbidity were obtained with Cox regression models, which were adjusted for immigrant status and psychiatric morbidity prior to sex reassignment (adjusted HR [aHR]).
RESULTS: The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8-4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8-62.9). Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9-8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0-3.9). Comparisons with controls matched on reassigned sex yielded similar results. Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.
CONCLUSIONS: Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.
and you all want to make like living your life as a perv and not being able to enact your perversions is going to cause suicide, and that embracing your perversion lessons it, you are wrong, as you can see, even for those who has coddle in your warped ideas, it still allows for suicide. go get the mental help you need to do and stop being a confused perv in the first place and you would not have to worry about what bathroom to use.
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hsw
Sorry you just reinforced the perception that you have no idea what you're talking about. The conclusion isn't that the surgery shouldn't be done, it's that the surgery isn't enough and should be reinforced with support from the mental health community - not because the patient is mentally ill, but because with or without the surgery, they have to go through their lives dealing with hateful, deliberately misinformed people like you.
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Carol Amina
Thank you and I agree!
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John Owens
That statement is patently ridiculous. I'm not saying that hate and misinformation do not exist, but the idea that mental illness will not, if we just pat everyone on the fanny and tell them how wonderful they are, THAT's ridiculous. Not being accepted by the majority is NOT a cause of mental illness. SEEKING acceptance by the majority MAY be a mental illness in itself. I'm just saying.
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hsw
And this is why I don't bother to engage with you John Owens - you deliberately misconstrue and like Mary Sale, demonstrate the very thing you try to deny. Not going to respond to anything further you post, so have at it, but for someone else's "benefit" - I'm outta here.
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John Owens
Just in the FYI department, while hsw pretends to be so logical and factual, he is anything but that. He is an emotional toddler who cannot help but call names and sling insults. He puts his retarded blanket statements out and then gets his Depends in a wad when someone tries to get him to moderate his fanatical statements a LITTLE bit.
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Brother John
Brother John May 23 post to John Owens…."B.S. John…. Here’s the context…..”You are a snot-nosed spoiled brat with no friends and no hope. You just try to pick at anything because you are bitter and hopeless, probably either disabled or a tweaker.” You started your post with “hopeless jerk”.
Using a whole string of disparaging slurs including “disabled” is no way to fathom anyone’s compulsion. You were called out for yet another instance of immature behaviour and rather than addressing hsw’s challenge to back up your claim, you spit out more grade school nonsense (including calling me a prick!)."
On May 24, John Owens replied in part…. "I am sorry I am so easily provoked into unkindness and that is certainly not my goal here. I am unhappy with myself for saying anything offensive and I think it is immature and uncomely. For what it’s worth, I was REacting to you and others and NOT being who I try to be. I have repented and ask your forgiveness. Whether or not I receive it, I will NOT react that way any more on this blog. Again, I am sorry."
Obviously your May epiphany and self-proclaimed repentance was only temporary (probably just more of your bullshit). Although "emotional toddler" and a reference to incontinence isn't as offensive as many of your previous juvenile insults, you've again chosen to use a disability as an insult (retarded), something most mature, educated people find very offensive.
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John Owens
Brother John, take your nose out of hsw's backside and remember that after all that first round of stuff, I showed him and anyone paying attention that he started it, and he continues to play the same game. Just because I am older, wiser, and better doesn't mean I have to put up with it. You can smooch up to him all you want.
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Brother John
John said, "Just because I am older, wiser, and better doesn’t mean I have to put up with it."
Your Ego seems to be spilling into your perceived reality, John. You may be older than most of us, but claiming that you're "wiser and better" is nothing more than massive hubris (and delusion) on your part. Do you think you're superior to everyone, or just this community?
How about that vow of repentance you made on May 24 to this entire forum, O Wise One? No other postings have been as rude, immature and condescending as yours with perhaps one or two exceptions. But they haven't proclaimed their intellectual superiority as you have.
I do find it amusing, although pathetic, that you think "He is an emotional toddler who cannot help but call names and sling insults" when you're the one doing the slinging.
Carry on, Wise Elder of the Forum, but remember that everyone can read what you post.
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John Owens
Yeah. You and the twits can act like you think you are so superior, but everything you say is pavlovian emesis, regurgitated in hopes of approval of other pavlovi. I think that may well be your god. If you ever have an independent, original thought or make a normal observation of something real and meaningful I'd like to hear about it, but so far, all I've seen here is a very pedestrian version of the same swill spouted by the followers of fake political correctness.
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John Owens
I haven't seen either of you offer up any kind of repentance, temporary or otherwise, for anything you have said, so after you have criticized and ridiculed others, you should hardly be judging me, but be my guest anyway. Could you possibly imagine that I might care? You think you are further up the evolutionary ladder somehow, but none of your kind could possibly propagate successfully for the future, because you do not have enough instinct for self-preservation to think through the junk that you believe, so your kind will not prevail.
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hsw
Brother John you're obviously free to do as you choose, but you're arguing with a guy who believes, after all this time, that I'm a man. My husband, three grown children, and grandchild will get a good laugh out of that. My point is that it's futile, which is why I withdrew. Arguing with someone who assumes that because I'm an ally, I must be "one of them" (my words not his) is pointless. But I'm enjoying reading what you write so by all means carry on if you've a mind.
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John Owens
Yeah. What I said on the 13th stands.
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Brother John
Who thinks they're "further up the evolutionary ladder", John Owens? It's you claiming to be "older, wiser and better" (and confirming this delusion on the 15th.)
You said……."none of your kind could possibly propagate successfully for the future….."
It appears your self proclaimed wisdom is faulty as both hsw (whom you've repeatedly addressed as a man…. whoops!) and I have children and grandchildren. I expect this is the case for many of "our kind".
You haven't seen repentance from either of us because we haven't been using terms like "disabled", "retarded", "hopeless jerk", "prick", and more to denigrate people on this forum as you choose to do in your "wisdom".
Was it your alter ego who made the seemingly heartfelt apology on May 24?
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John Owens
Brother John, If you were not so dense, you would see that my reference to being older, wiser, better, is satire, because OBVIOUSLY you want ME to react with kindness and respect when you and your ilk do not. Try to analyze yourself for once.
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Carol Amina
After reading this I can only say that there is a cognitive disconnect in what you read and what you think you read. This really shows that you cant fix the damage that living in the body of a male when your mind and soul are female or visa versa is very harmful. Having gender reassignment surgery would not fix the problems that a person would have after living in such a state. Being Transgender is not a mental problem but brings with it huge stresses that would lead to depression.
People such as yourself cause so much harm. I'm really sorry for you.
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Carol Amina
Joanna SGO, You sound like someone who truly cares. I can't advise you on this but wanted to say maybe reach out to your local LGBT community center? Also many trans folks have been going undetected. You just might have one in your church and not even know it. Anyway I wish you peace and hope you find a solution.
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Joanna SGO
Thank you, I hadn't thought of that but I do know someone who is very involved in the city's LGBT group so I will contact him. Thank you :)
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Zoran (RZBK)
I am one of the people who read Holy books. There are many religions being followed by many people on this earth such as Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, etc. But for heaven's sake, we are talking about Transgender Bathroom Policy: What Should Be Done? It is so simple: (A) if you are a man, and/or "look like" and believe that you are a man, then you go to the man's toilet; (B) if you are a woman, and/or "look like" a woman and believe that you are a woman, then you go to the lady's toilet; (C) if you are a transgender, and "do not look like" a transgender and believe that you are a transgender, look at (A) and (B). End of story. One must be nuts to ask for birth certificates.
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hsw
Well you'd think so, but you'd have to address that to the state legislatures who have passed these laws. I think they're nuts, but they've made what you're suggesting illegal. I completely agree that it should be that simple, but what is someone to do when doing what seems logical (which is what you suggest) is against the law? That's where this whole conversation started. Reasonable people just want to pee, but some legislators think that's too simple.
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Zoran (RZBK)
HSH, legislators are political animals, sometimes waisting time. In his Politics, Aristotle (4th C. BC) wrote: "Hence it is evident that the state is a creation of nature, and that man is by nature a political animal. And he who by nature and not by mere accident is without a state, is either above humanity, or below it; he is the ‘Tribeless, lawless, hearthless one,’ whom Homera denounces—the outcast who is a lover of war; he may be compared to a bird which flies alone."
Aristotle did not have the problem of the "Bible" and sexes, which has nothing to do with urinating. Aristotle and "reasonable people", like you said, just want to pass water, make water, relieve oneself; [informal] pee, take a leak, piddle, tinkle, (take a) whiz, piss; [formal] micturate, without having to show birth certificates.
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hsw
I don't disagree with any of that but you didn't address my question - what are transgender people to do when doing the logical thing is actually against the law and could get them arrested?
I'm a big fan of medical marijuana, which has been shown to be very effective in treating more than one of my own medical conditions - but it's not legal in my state, and given that I have a professional career and bills to pay, I don't do it because it is illegal and will get me arrested.
So...what would you suggest they do?
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Zoran (RZBK)
What to do? Simple:
1. the Supreme Court temporarily blocked order on transgender bathroom use. So nobody has to worry because now it is not legal and will get no one arrested.
2. if you are a transgenderist look for toilets that do not have transgender bathroom. (How many are there around anyway? I do not know, but I am sure there are not too many in the USA: Philadelphia and oat cities do not (thank God for little flavors).
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hsw
Gotta read past the headlines. The order they blocked was one ALLOWING a transgender student to use the bathroom of his choice. The laws against transgender folks using the bathroom of their choice remain fully in effect.
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Zoran (RZBK)
"and most cities", NOT "and oat cities"
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Zoran (RZBK)
The Obama administration has interpreted Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Title IX of the Education Act of 1972 — which ban discrimination “on the basis of sex” — to also ban discrimination on the basis of gender identity. As a result, agencies and a patchwork of courts have found that anti-transgender discrimination is a form of illegal sex discrimination in workplaces and publicly funded schools. The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) began implementing the policies in 2012 when it issued a ruling involving a transgender woman. And by 2014, officials issued guidance protecting students on the basis of gender identity in cases of sexual violence, and the Justice Department announced it was backing the EEOC’s view of Title VII. In April of this year, the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals found the Education Department had deference to interpret Title IX to cover a transgender student. But the states argue Congress never meant for civil rights laws on “sex” to cover gender identity — that the term “sex” is a static biological state of being male or female. In requesting a preliminary injunction, the states say they face irreparable harm because the federal government has used these interpretations with the force of law. They argue the feds may dock education funding, and rules could allow people to “commit UNTOWARD acts” in restrooms and locker rooms. Yet the states’ briefs do not directly acknowledge the existence of transgender people — only using the word “transgender” when quoting others — and instead describe transgender women as male, and vice versa. In one brief, for example, the states refer to a transgender woman as “a male employee who demanded to be treated as a female.” Their case contends that allowing people to enter facilities that conflict with their birth sex amounts to letting men enter women’s rooms, thereby conflicting with the civil rights laws providing separate facilities for men and women.
“untoward acts” – Exactly what does mean "UNTOWARD"? Briefly, an act not appropriate for a particular occasion or situation. Example: (Excluding extreme paraphilia and exhibitionism) a transgenderist with a penis (or any person with a penis) that shows said penis in a public bathroom or elsewhere, would “commit UNTOWARD acts” when other individuals see it and are offended by it.
Possibly the problem is created by some individuals characterized by a stifling and prudish moral earnestness. Nah, not in America, where some individuals still teach flat-world courses. Do I suggest slight sarcastic? May I suggest some sarcasm?
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John Owens
Where might one find flat-world courses? Not that I want to take one, I just might want to ride there to see the campus.
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Zoran (RZBK)
Dear John, the world is flat. The campus is flat. Some brains are flat. Do see Or some believe that. In the US, some Southerners want to teach Creationism as a real course. Since I was teaching geology at Temple University, I considering a course of a "flat world created in 6 days" to be asinine.
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Zoran (RZBK)
I consider, NOT I considering [ sic ]
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John Owens
Zoran, I was born at Fort McPherson, Georgia, and with the exceptions of a few years overseas and working in different states, I have lived in the South all of my life. I am 59 years old, and I have never once met anyone who believes in a flat Earth, or who doesn't believe the Earth is much older than the Jewish chronology beginning with Adam. I've never been to Temple University, but I have attended at 3 different community colleges and one University (JSU) in Alabama and have never once heard anyone speak of flat Earth. Christopher Columbus disproved that in 1492, The idea that people believe and teach those things in the South is asinine, and springs from the ridiculous assumption that people with old-fashioned values are too backward to hold so-called "progressive" values.
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Zoran (RZBK)
Sorry, the website disappeared from my comment. It was from The Huffington Post, Flat Earth Theory Is Still A Thing (2016)
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angel
Build more single bathrooms, problem solved! Walmart did it, they are called "family bathrooms" and are usually in the back of the store.
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annm2969
If anyone out there is desiring to work with a truly good person that cares about the betterment of the mankind, who will be honest, straight-forward, and down to earth – give Dr. Todd a chance. This man is amazing. manifestspellcast@gmail. com
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hsw
annm2969 what does that have to do with anything posted here?
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clayteapot
chinaclayteapo com
It's very simple , 3 restrooms , male , female , and one for either . Certain hateful people in our government refuse to do what's needed to calm the nation instead they instill fear . Think of this when the federal government passed lesgslation to give all public businesses and private handycapped access who started complaining first ? Yes the same group of people because they simply did not like spending a little money to give equal access to handycapped people . In fact if you lived back then republican business started vilifying handycapped people I remember it well in the southern states . Yes these God fearing people started causing lots of problems . This is a simple fix and yes progress can cost as it always has . They simply hate transgender and gay people thus refuse to confirm their vile hatred by covering it by saying " we don't hate you we hate the sin in you" FALSE ! These people refuse to follow federal laws passed for all people not just the hatful ones personal path in life . Telling scary stories to scare people is wrong and mostly incorrect but this is how they $ sell $ religion by fear and miss information . In a attempt to resolve everyone's fears 3 bathroom choices is the simple answer . Such a easy fix yet they continue to fight it based on their thin line of belief . Just as they did concerning wheelchair access these so called Christian business owners . Right? Pastor Brenten Stevens
Well said brother!
Open your Bible people! This is a complete Abomination ! Where in God's word do you find that this should be any concern of ours at all??? "He has turned them over to a retro bate mind" Please pick up a Bible and actually read it!
There are 52 or more Bibles, so which bible do I read. I've read most of them and have not seen God's word in any of them. I have seen men's translation of what they think God has said in them but as usual it is theirs, NOT GOD'S. God is a personal thing LIKE gender and God's the one and only to decide what will happen to us all. Just because you do like them, GOD loves them they are his children too. Ignorance is the worst enemy of all.
So, just remake God in YOUR image and feel perfectly justified in every abomination you commit.
<3 Brother Tim <3
Judge not lest ye be judged.
I was on a jobsite last week and needed to use the porta can. As I entered I notice the universal symbol for womans restrooms. It's probably what the porta can company had at the time to drop at that jobsite. The good news is after using said porta can I'm just fine. It didn't damage my psyche, cause undue stress, give me a complex, hurt my feelings or otherwise make me feel I need to seek help from a mental health professional and I didn't contemplate legal advice. I did however feel much relief from evacuating the bladder.
Okay you should also open yours to love thy neighbor as thy self. No if or buts! Also you should no longer eat shrimp or any crustaceans!
If you're going to open your Bible then you have to be "open" to it all. Not just pick and choose. God is Love!
Gender bending is a creation of man not God. Man defines Love to suit his own sinful nature.Loving your neighbor does not include supporting their sin anymore than Loving one's own sinful nature. If you are of God and your body is a temple that God dwells how dare you destroy and mutilate what God has created!
tracy, you missed the whole point it is not about loving thy neighbor, you can love thy neighbor with out liking or loving the bad things they do, if you had a neighbor and you let them in your house and they robed, you, you might say i love you so it's okay, but then they rape you, and you say i love you so its okay, then they burn down your house with or without you in it, and you still say that you love them, that does not help them to learn it is not acceptable to do these things, it does not help you loved ones you leave behind.that person had no right robing you, they had no right raping you and they sure had not right burning down your house or killing you. but they won't learn their actions are not acceptable unless there are consequences and unless they are taught that certain things are not acceptable. coddling them will only teach them that it is okay for the to keep doing it as there is nobody who will keep them from not doing it, and how satisfying it was to them, they got a lot of joy out of doing it. that is not how a civilized society is. you might think it is progress moving forward and enlightening, but it is moving backwards, as that is the way third world societies did and do things, and that is not safe, it makes for many people victimizing other people. you regulate the behavior not the person, so when you say love your neighbor you are saying let your neighbor shit in your yard, in your hand and in your mouth, it is okay because you love them, love is not enough, you love a person but not their behavior.
Tracy, you are somewhat correct. The practice of cherry-picking scriptural references to back a given point is rampant and almost universal. The Law of God reflects the Mind of God, an ideal for how humans are to conduct their lives and governments are to be formed. We are so far away from even the ability to MOVE IN THAT DIRECTION that we can NOT come close to true obedience. I myself do not hate LGBT people at all, as I do not hate Muslims or communists. I find certain of their practices abhorrent, but I also find turnip-greens abhorrent. I think it was Solomon in the last view verses of Ecclesiastes who said, "Let us hear the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep His Commandments, for this is the whole duty of man(kind)." This bathroom flap has everyone on one side trying to plead the cause of the downtrodden LGBT FOR THEM, and everyone on the other side trying to plead the cause of their wives, children, and GOD. I've yet to hear from any LGBT people on this, in any forum, so I think it is all just hogwash. COMMON SENSE would dictate that men use the men's room and women use the women's room. If a woman is so manly that she wants to use the men's room, most men probably won't care. If a man is so feminine that he wants to sit when he whizzes, if he LOOKS like a woman, I don't think anyone will notice, and if he doesn't bother anyone, the other denizens of that establishment might gossip a bit but probably no more than that. The whole thing is a ridiculous distraction making fools of everyone, including myself. I'm almost done with it.
Pastor Vic that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I truly believe God is Love. The more we love the closer we are to God. I do my best to see everyone in that light. I wish the same for you.
Pastor Vic -
You write that "gender bending" is a creation of man, not God. I implore you to read the article linked below that details various expressions of gender chromosomes that result in newborns that do not clearly fit within a two gender classification system. The male/female gender assignment is a social construct created by society. Just because we follow this system does not mean that all individuals fit into these two classifications, and genetic studies prove exactly that.
We need to have more compassion. We must respect the core message of Christianity - love, redemption, salvation, and hope - and stop trying to apply passages that are clouded by the societal reality of the writers' time to our present condition. We have grown and developed as a society since then. Love others and focus on resolving personal sins. If God truly "despises" anyone that is between God and that person. We have no need to enter that battle. Focus on love and compassion, this is the answer.
Many Blessings
Say you haven't heard from a member of the LGBT group no more. I am a homosexual male, an educator, a father, very spiritual and without a religious bone in my God created body. I do not fear God, because just like each of you I am part of the collective that is God. God is love and I do my very best to unplug from the collective conscious of religion and all its non-love to be humble in my path to be as much like God as I can, therefore I love. I am love, I give love, I speak love, and I will give you as much love as I am physically and spiritually able regardless of whether or not that results in being robbed, raped, house burned down, etc. Limiting the love I am able to offer for such reasons is living in a fear based mentality, which is not love and therefore is not following God's word. Limiting the love I am able to share with the world because of fear and also because it may not teach people what is acceptable/unacceptable is not love. Such behavior not only passes judgment, ego, lacks empathy, and also is not in line with my God given purpose to love and be loved.
In addition to having now heard from a person who is brave enough to identify with the LGBT community, I have also fulfilled my life long goal of being a parent through the help of the county foster care system in my state. My child identifies as transgender and I can tell you that although I didn't understand the journey she was on at first, I knew my job to help her learn to love and be loved as is the cornerstone of all parenting on this planet. She has taught me so much and from her point of view her words on this subject include,"why does anyone care where I pee and poop, especially when it's in a toilet just like everyone else?" I can't say I agree with that more. We seem to sexuality and victimize everything as a human community in what must be an attempt to be Godlike through love and concern for each other but in the process we further harm a population of innocent children and adults who just want so desperately to fit in and to be loved. Why are we not following the one fundamental and common sense tasks given to us by God? Why aren't we loving and helping each other? We are so quick to fear that change will bring destruction, and surely there are will be stories from those who have been negatively impacted by growth and an increase in love. Not everyone is of the light and that's ok because it is their path and if my life should alter as a result of one not of the light, I hope the love I share with them allows their journey to be altered and my life is not in vein.
Is this really an issue of love or is it fear? If fear, let's address the issue rationally rather than push that burdon if fear onto a population of people who have already carried so much burdon and fear in this life. Isn't it common sense that the design of our restrooms and locker rooms could be modified to eliminate the fear? Couldn't we use more secure stalls, change the process to accommodate all pieces of love that God has bestowed us? Why is it ok to further push those who don't fall in the gender norm to harm and death when the solution may be as simple as a better fitting door or stall pieces. The people of the community has already thrown away an amazing ambassador of love that is my daughter. Our love attracted each other and through the adoption process I have rights to the wellbeing of my child just like anyone else and I refuse to succumb her to further acts of non-love.
My last word to you in this topic is to mention that it's possible you haven't heard from any of the LGBT community because this topic is so silly when you have in the same time disease, terrorism, hunger, toxic environments all causing real dis-ease in our world but some seem to find it necessary to suddenly stop to control the type of sanitary, private place, some of us excrete shit and piss. My honest human response to all of this isn't very god like, but it may resonate with some of you, so it goes like this. Mind your own F@$king business, and pay attention to where you excrete not where I excrete. Get in get out and you won't have to worry about how I am getting in and out. If you witness something unsafe, tell somebody because silence doesn't serve anyone and just like at the urinal stalls, stop being creepy and stop staring at me when I excrete and I'll kindly do the same. Children are being abused, people some places excrete in the streets and you are worried about what room of toilets I go into a privacy stalk to excrete? Get a grip and get back to the task at hand. Love, remember??
So, let's look at this from a different angle for a minute both Pastor Vic and Mary should look at this and, think for a minute here. You two are quoting Leviticus so, how much of Leviticus do you follow in your daily lives? All, or, none except what is referenced here? Do you eat shellfish? If so, that is a sin according to Leviticus. Do you Pastor Vic kiss your wife during her time of the month? If so, that is an abomination according to Leviticus. If you eat pork that is a sin, according to Leviticus. these laws are Hebrew laws set down by Moses to insure the health and, well being of the Hebrews as they moved in the wilderness, shellfish couldn't be kept well so, it became poison to the people, pork couldn't be cured and, at the time, women were considered unclean during that time of the month so, what about the "Gay" mentioned there, the Hebrews were trying to build an Army through procreation, "births", you can't do that if your men are having sex with one another so, Moses outlawed it. The things, at least some of them had more to do with the times and, conditions than with what Yahweh wanted from His people through the rest of time, Jesus even said as much during his ministry.
Dear Tracy Snith,
I believe your the one confused. God said to love your neighbor as yourself. This doesn't mean fornicate with them accept or justify their fornications. God has outlined the deviate behavior from the Old to the New Testament. Love has nothing to do with accepting sin and justifying it through Mans Laws. Moral behavior is outlined in the Bible, any sin espescialy those of the flesh between men and men, women and women or beastiality are in "God words" not mine considered an abomination to God. No forgivness from God! Unless the one doing the sin truly repents and corrects the abominal behavior. Finding belief and faith in Jesus Christ and accepting the word of God. The healing can begin if the Holy Ghost finds the vessel clean enough and truely repentant to reside in and guide them. The Holy Ghost will not stay in and unclean sinners body along side waiting. That's why they lose perspective of their wrongs and find everyone else to be judgemental of their behavior. Believing them predjudice to them. Love the sinner in hopes they will find Jesus and God and truly commit to them. " Do Not open hearedly accept them in sin."No harm should come to them they are God's creation no matter how lost they are.
Love the the sinner disagree with and do not justify or accept the sin. It's up to the sinner to realize their wrong and correct them.
Sincerely,
Rev. Joseph
Tracy, love thy neighbor is only parts of the laws of what Jesus gave us, and if find it funny that so many people only want to see it because it is convenient to them. I don't see the transgenders or the homosexuals following that rule when they bully others to accept them, and yes I do go by all the other rules too, I do't eat shell fish, i don't eat pork, and all the other thinks in Leviticus. But mostly Jesus said to follow the laws of Moses, to not take advantage of others, and to not use them,and that a rich man has just as much of a chance of getting into the heavenly kingdom as a camel going through the eye of a needle, we need to remember those, too.If we only remember to love our neighbor, we don't get the full message. And loving thy neighbor does not mean to accept everything they do, it just means if you see them passes out on the street, you help them and not ignore them as so many in the scriptures has had happen to them.
so transgender freaks don't victimize others, huh? what do you call this, then? http://gopthedailydose.com/2016/04/29/texas-transgender-caught-taking-pictures-13-yr-old-girls-target-lgbts-leader-born/
Oh Mary, Mary.. tsk tsk.. I see that you follow really dumb logic. I am one of these transgender freaks as you say but I just use the bathroom or dressing room and go on my way. I don't care if you find several articles on transgender people doing something illegal because they don't represent all transgender people. By your theory, if a black man rapes a woman than ALL black men are rapist. If a Muslim commits a terrorist act than ALL Muslims are terrorists. If a middle class suburb mom abuses prescription medicines than ALL middle class mom's are drug addicts. If you haven't realized yet that society is made up all different types of people and those people do bad deeds. What everyone is forgetting is that there are already laws on the books regarding, rape, sexual harassment, non-consensual photographing and video taping and tons and tons of laws protecting children. Do you really think a law is going to stop a criminal from breaking it and doing what they want to do? This bathroom law is just a smoke screen for bigotry and hatred from some people in society that don't like who we are. There is no way of enforcing this law and will only cause vigilante actions not to transgender people but for people who don't conform to societies idea of what a man or women look like. It's already happened several times where cis-women are being harassed by cis-men thinking they are transgender. The cis-men than get upset and claim that the cis-women need to dress more feminine. The fear that the conservatives state that will happen with transgender people is actually happening to cis-women by cis-men. The bathroom law will not affect me because I am one of the privileged transgender people for I am white and I blend into society.
I know this is pointless because you will stand behind a book of fables and try to make me out as a villain as you do with anybody that doesn't agree with your book of non-sense. So be it.
I am genderfluid, and I dont mind at all that your god thinks I am an abomination. I am good with it. But if I have to pee, I am going to go to which ever bathroom is available.
Reverend Joseph: I will pray for you since you must interpret for me. I believe God said love thy neighbor as thy self. He did not say to interpret it in what your beliefs are or what you have been taught to believe. It is a simple declarative statement! No interpretation needed.
well stephanie must not want to have a dialog as she left no way to respond to her post, which show what a hypocrite she is. First of all stephanie,a society can love other in their society without loving or accepting the acts that others do. they are two different things, and just because you want to spew out love they neighbor does not make your actions right or lovable, no does it mean we should be forced to accept them. secondly, if you didn't choose to be a freak you would not have to worry about if you are accepted or not, and if you choose to be a freak and being a freak doesn't bother you,then neither should not being accepted. Thirdly, even if you are not the type of freak to victemizes others does not mean we should have to allow ourselves to be put into situations by all freaks on the chance that some are not criminals, because we don't and should not have to be subjected to being victimized in order to find out if a person is a victimizer or not. it only makes common sense,oh i forgot, you are a freak, you lost all sense of common sense or you would understand that. I mean, just because some people get eaten by sharks when you swim in the ocean, and not everybody who swims in the ocean gets eaten by sharks, it does not mean that those of us that don't want to be eaten by sharks when we go into the ocean should have to worry about sharks. if there is something that can be done to prevent the sharks from being in that area. i mean, just think and use common sense if you have any. because no body should be victimized. by the time a person gets eaten by the shark, or victimized, it is too late. and i am sorry for you that you don't understand that, but we are not put o this planet to coddle all you irrational freaks when you want to do things that are not healthy or normal, and if you don't like it tough, as you don't seem to like what other like or not. and if you were rational, you would not expect others to have to put up with having freaking behavior around them, if we wanted freak behavior around us or if we wanted to be freaks, we would do it. now grow up and mature and stop acting like spoiled brats.
Good for you Rebekah! Bravo!!
Jesus Christ is this forum moderated AT ALL? We can all have our opinions but no one should have to be subjected to being called vile names.
Rebekah please allow me to apologize on behalf of some of my fellow humans (and I use those words loosely).
Sale is an ass (if name-calling is allowed, so be it) and if he/she was in the stall next to me I'd be very, very afraid.
Again, my apologies on behalf of some "people."
Pastor Vic, not all of us are Christian, so our belief structure is going to e different no matter how angry you get. Any concern of ours at all? it absolutely is and always will be. Children don't pick what they will be when they grow up, some are more masculine some more feminine regardless of physical sex of the child. In every culture there is this 'gender issue' so telling someone to read the bible doesn't fix it..
even if you are not a christian, you should study it and know what the heck it is about.
Mary -
The idea that one must study Christianity even if they are not Christian is a remarkable example of religious exclusivism and supremacy. If this is not the case then the extension of your idea would mean that one should study and know about all spiritual belief systems. Perhaps you are an omnist who recognizes and respects all religions?
While Christianity has the largest number of believers with 32% of the world's population, it still only accounts for just shy of one-third of the world's people. I find it very difficult to believe that two-thirds of the world believe the wrong thing. This is especially hard to believe when one considers that many of the spiritual belief systems of this "other" majority are significantly older than Christianity.
I implore you to examine the current state of our world. Many of our contemporary problems have arisen out of a black or white, right or wrong belief that leaves no room for compromise. The best past is always the middle. We must engage in metacognition, raising our awareness of how many of our beliefs, thoughts, and behaviors are created through social processes. Ultimately, one will find that there are very few things that are clear-cut right or wrong. And that the world's religions have more commonality than difference.
Many Blessings
Brovo well stated brother!
Interesting none of the people like to post so others can reply... goes to show that christian's are not open to have others feelings and thoughts interjected. they just want to tell there version of truth. A bit like Hitler.
Carol Amina, your last comment here is arrogant and somewhat uninformed. WHY, OH WHY do people like to throw Hitler's name around? Because of a lack of information, and nothing more intelligent to say. They've heard other people do it, so they just copy the other people. He WAS a historic figure, and comparisons can be made from time to time, but your use of his name in this circumstance betrays a lack of analysis of how the blog works. You can reply to anyone, but it is sometimes not possible to reply directly to a reply. You have to do it like I did here. You really should stop low-rating the Christians as a group. NO group is a monolith. The us/them mentality causes people to mentally pigeon-hole others so they can dismiss them as a lower life-form. Hitler did that, too, but I only mention it because you did.
Thank you Rev Nivasi! As a Non-christian I get a bit bent with "them" always acting like "they" are the boss of the rest of the world. Peace
Carol Amina I also get bent at "them" when they come into a setting such as this, designed for people of all faiths to mingle and share, and still act like they are the supreme beings. This is one of those "why the hell do you care" issues for me - everyone has been using the bathroom of their choice since forever, and until these onerous and invasive laws were passed, it never occurred to anyone to worry about who was in the next stall.
with regards to hsw, you might not agree with me,but that is okay as long as you don't insist on making somebody do what you want them to do that they don't agree with, You don't have to agree with me, just not force your way onto me, regarding of me being in a stall next to you, i ams not the one to be worried about,as i am in no way a perv no an irrational sickle that gets some kind of jollies looking at women or girls bodies, or trying to have sex with them, not force myself onto anybody. In fact if i were in a stall next to you unless you were doing something you should not be doing, you would not even know i was there. you leave me alone, and i leave you alone. so all the perves should leave all of the rest of society alone if they don't want others to say things they don't want to hear, like the truths.
Sale, that makes you pretty much like everybody else in terms of your bathroom behavior. The way you're not like everybody else is that you're a pretentious ass who pretends that it's us who want you to believe as we do. I don't give two shits what you believe, but I do care how you behave, and your behavior is reprehensible.
Whatever or whoever you worship would be ashamed.
We're done here - you're not worth my time.
I'm just curious - what exactly is a "a retro bate mind"?
LOL, hsw. I hate to admit it, but THAT right there is funny! I don't care who you are, that there is funny.(Larry the Cable Guy) I'm guessing you know he meant "reprobate".
You would guess correctly :)
retrobate means reject, given up on because you rejected God's way, so God said since you are a reject mind and you rejected Him, He will reject you. Look it up. now as far as your other comments above, about the bathroom behavior. you know what, just like all your liberals, you want to do things and not take the responsibility for the results of your actions, that is where you are wrong, because it does not matter what you think or how much cognative discondence you might try to use, you still have a retro bate mind and all of Gods truths and laws still hold regardless. it doesn't matter if you don't agree with it or like it or not, you are not going to justify yourself into Heaven that way, and if you don't care about that, then why do you care what other think about you if you use a bathroom for the sex you are born to. there are just laws of God that are absolute, rather or not you like it or agree with it or not this is one of them. end of discussion.
Ah mary you're back.
OK let's get started:
Retro bate is not a word. Not even two words. The definition you posted is rebrobate.
I am fully responsible for the results of my actions. Thanks for caring.
"cognitive"
"dissonance"
And that's not something you can use. It's somethings you have. You might want to get a dictionary.
No, no, they really don't. Your belief system is just that...what you believe. Your truth. Your laws. Not mine. There are thousands of faiths. Yours isn't the only legit path.
Really the end of the discussion? I doubt it because you can't seem to resist trying to force your beliefs on others.
I think you'll be back.
of course i know how to use a dictionary, moron. what is your excuse for being stupid, you must not know how to use one because you could and should had looked it up instead of asking about it. hey moron, if you know anything about dictionary, you know they break the word down by syllables, so it is a word and i proved it by posting it,and it is a word in the bible. you don't know what you are talking about, there are many faiths, but not all of them are constructive,positive and will allow people to advance, just because there are many faiths does not make them right. My faith is not alone, just because you don't accept it does not mean millions of others don't. It also does not make it wrong, as I get my information from the essene who I would trust over any of all of your guys missguided wantable faiths. And if you know anything about the essenes you would what kind of info they have. you would also know they believe in humans taking responsibilities for their actions and all you freak out there do not want to take responsibility for you actions or you would not be trying to force your decisions that you make onto there. by the way, I do have dictionaries. And I do use them often. As I have said before there are just some things thing in the cosmic laws which are absolute, no matter what way you look at it, just because you use excuses to settle their cognitive dissonance to try to make themselves feel better does not make it right.
Sale are you addressing me? I'm not sure why you'd do that, because I wasn't addressing you, and your post is written as if I was.
are you not the person who asked me what exactly is a "a retrobate Mind? i addressed whoever it was who asked me that question, but I can't always find a button to click on to leave a reply, but here it looks to me like you are the one who addressed me.If you were not addressing me, we then I could not tell be cause the you did not say, and the previous person above this question was also me, so please lets try to specify who we are addressing.
Sale, that post was made on May 5, 2016, in response to Pastor Vic's post of May 4, 2016.
What does the Bible have to do with where people pee?
Nothing my friend absolutely nothing
While I applaud your open-mindedness in wanting to find a solution rather than vilifying transgendered folks, I disagree that building separate facilities is the answer. This isn't really analogous to the handicapped access issue, as those with disabilities who are in a wheelchair have a physical access issue with door widths, railings, and appliance heights that transgendered people don't have. They just want to pee, and they don't need a special room, or even a special stall, to do it in.
All they need is for those who know the truth - that they are no more a threat than any other person - to stand up and speak out. "Separate but equal" was a bad idea pre-civil rights era, and it's a bad idea now. We've been using the same restroom as transgendered people for many years without issue, and without even knowing they were there. Once the initial stages of transition are past, "they" look just like "us" of the gender with which they identify.
The best idea I've seen today is to take down the male/female signs and put up Prince's symbol. Now that was a man who knew how to include everyone.
Agree. Excellent comment. That's the America I believe in. Thanks!
This is also the America that I want to live in. Thank you for such a fair and considerate comment! Another idea, just for the parents newly afraid of the transgender people that have yet to bother them due to their ignorance of their presence, is to mark restrooms as either "Adult" or "Children". Of course, I know that there would inherently be problems with even this idea, it's just an example, like your idea, of how many solutions there are to this "problem" that don't discriminate against any one segment of society and risk making life difficult for those around us. Life is too short and often times too difficult as it is without creating issues where there were previously none.
Yes!
Clapclapclapclap.
Fantastic post, hsw! I agree that it's likely all of us have shared a public washroom with transgendered folks and didn't know it. I'll admit I'd be a little creeped out sharing a bathroom with a bearded, muscular man wearing a dress with high heels and makeup. But that would be a cross dresser. Those who have made a TRANSformation wouldn't even be noticed.
Make all bathrooms single use , that covers everyone.
Agreed! In France and a few other Countries they are simply marked "Toilet". We all know what we do there and why would I care who is in the stall next to me? Our world has too many serious problems to solve to spend any energy on who is allowed to use what toilet. Just another distraction to keep us all away from the real troubles.
I have been told by people who are much more well traveled than I am that the older restrooms in Japan are open to all. Not only that, but there are no stalls - just holes in the floor that you squat over. Recently build restrooms are more like what we are used to. These open restrooms didn't cause a country full of perverts, rapists, and pedofiles. "Everybody poops." I have used men's rooms when the line was too long for the women's. No big deal. No one tried to molest me or look into the stall. This is much ado about nothing.
Your comment about Japan is true, I lived there for 2 years.
The same situation existed in Korea, where I lived from 1964 to 1969. It simply wasn't an issue.
Much of the rest of the world is enlightened concerning the human body. America is a Puritan country and one of the last left on earth. It is time for people to open their eyes and accept others. If a city is enlightened in a state that is not why should they be punished by being told they cannot have a a certain law. That is called hate and it is coming form the so-called Christians. They are cowards, that is the saddest part.
Just saying, SATAN himself is disguised as an angel of light, so "enlightenment" can be a raw deal. Just saying
not all of us believe in a Satan. That belief is a Christian one. Going to the loo is shared by male, female and all others at home so what difference does it make. Love and Light to all
Fay, you are wrong, there are other religions other then Judaeo christian who believe in Satan, or an evil side of existence, Even the Muslims believe in Satan, the Native Americans do, but they recognize him as the trickster coyote. The Buddhists believes in a negative entity, in order for there to be balance in all things, you must have good and evil, that mean that Satan or the counterpart to Jesus must exist. The Buddhist knows about yin and yang, and without one you can't have the other, and I am sure there are many other religions that do. And some that don't is probably because they want to use the dark side to their advantages, like when you have wickan and even hoodoo they use them on what the call white magic or black magic, which means they believe that there are two sides to the issues. Many reputable wickans don't even want to use black magic though many voodoo practitioners do both. And there are some religions out there who do call themselves satanists and they practice as such.
I'll repeat: "Enlightenment" does not mean intelligent. Satan appears as an angel of light, and his ministers appear as ministers of righteousness. I think it is funny that you class all who call themselves Christians as cowards. That is a blatantly bigoted remark to be coming from someone who thinks themselves enlightened. Kinda shows the true colors, doesn't it? BRAND anyone in disagreement as ignorant and a coward? That is NOT enlightened.
Speaking of being deceived… we all know that SANTA is an anagram for SATAN and DOG an anagram for GOD (man's best friend), right?
SANTA certainly is. He IS Satan. That's who he represents. He is THE original Antichrist. Yet children think he is like God-- knows if you are bad or good, and rewards those who are good. And parents keep telling that lie to children generation after generation, knowing it is a lie. They know Jesus was not born then, also. The first Santa Clause was Nimrod, in the time between the flood and Abraham. The Saturnalia was a winter solstice celebration that the Roman church just HAD to include along with so many other heathen practices like Easter and nuns and they even took the head off the statue of Jupiter and (supposedly) put a new head on it and called it St. Peter. No biblical evidence Peter ever even went to Rome, but it's a cinch that Paul did.
Walmart has quietly handled the issue all along with no fuss or notice. They have a "Family Restroom" In each of their stores. It is a private suite complete with a large and small commode. changing table etc. A more than perfect rest room for any gender sans the notice etc. There is always a non upsetting solution to every problem and Walmart, In this situation, Had the answer all along and no one has complained about it at all ever.......
I totally agree! There is a simple solution, a third bathroom is all that's needed! Does it cost money? Yes, but in the long run, it's the human and safer thing to do for all of us. We have to remember that we are all in this world together, and that thought is what creates fear in people. No one wants to be responsible for the well being of another human being they don't know. That's why it's easy for some people to record someone getting beat up instead of helping them.
Yes, please, build more bathrooms and make them with one stall so it's first come first serve!
Transgender people have, for years, used the lavatories that their dress corresponded to. How they go about doing it is their business. It is difficult though not impossible to envision a female using a urinal in a men's room so I suspect they would use the stalls. This did not become an issue until it was brought out in the open by a single TG person. A tempest in a teapot.
I concur, Mr. Hurd.
Let all bathrooms be for every one go in lock the door and go. wash hands and come out. Then you save money you only need one bathroom.
Get rid of seperate but equal. Its not about the toilets any more than Jim Crow was about water fountains. Come visit the synagogue I belong to. We so not have gendered bathrooms. We have about a dozen private stalls to do your business. Yes, horrors, small children can see the tampon machine. So what? Absolutely not on "separate but equal". If I tried to use the restroom consistant with my birth certificate, the men would run out screaming because there would be a woman in the mens room. Male/Female/Other - why not go the whole way and label the third door "freaks", because as long as you call us "other", thats the message. I don't advertise that I am a woman if trans experience but I will spesk out about this BS that "we" are a danger to you. Chivalry in protecting the cisgender people is sexism at is worst. it's unfortunate that I cannot comment anonymously - because we fear for our lives daily. But there's my name.
Agree 100%
OK so as a Pastor for ULC we are not allowed to make derogatory remarks against other religions but Pastor Brenton Stevens can say and do what he wants?? You've got articles about people getting along and then this junk? Is he a "pastor" with a small "p" for the ULC?? Cuz he is embarrassing....
I recommend one unisex bathroom. Politicians need to stay out of people's bedrooms and now bathrooms. This has gone far enough.
That would be a great idea. A third bathroom would be the better choice. It would keep children and women safer.
I agree that 3 bathrooms are a practical solution which can also provide a safety buffer--after all, one is in a most compromising position with one's pants down. The other consideration that I have not heard discussed relates to cleanliness. I will not refer to male and female here, but rather to pointers and setters. I am a setter. This past week I used a bathroom that was set up to accommodate the all-inclusive-public. The first thing that hit me was the smell of the urinal, then I had to step through pee spots on the floor to get to the commode. Please don't be too offended, but even my husband agrees that anytime he uses a public men's room, it is usually filthy, and that (in general and in his words) "men are slobs and don't wipe up after themselves in a public restroom." Most women I have observed, including myself, will leave the restroom tidy; we wipe around the sink, etc., and--because we don't have a pointer, there isn't pee all over the floor. There are people, such as I, who need to be extremely diligent about not being exposed to excess bacteria, those of us with low immune systems from chemo, etc. Yes, everyone has a right to use a public restroom; yet, no one has considered my right to use a clean bathroom. Allowing pointers to use the setter's bathroom decreases the level of cleanliness for setters. I personally don't care what gender, or how many genders, anyone identifies with. If you have a pointer, you should use a pointer's bathroom; if you are a setter, then use the setter's bathroom.
They could sit down too! They could be called sitters!
I agree with you. I thought the same thing, just have an extra bathroom for anyone. A lot of places have them already and they. What's the big deal? It solves the problem quickly and easily and no one is at risk of being assaulted, raped or kidnapped.