Since the Supreme Court ruled in favor of marriage equality, there has been pushback among conservatives. Some are claiming that the decision, which legally codifies that religious beliefs cannot be used to systematically oppress people, is oppressive. Fox News and other right-wing media are writing headlines about the "attack on Christianity."
Conservative public officials are balking at the ruling and refusing to issue marriage licenses to gay couples, process name-change paperwork, and recognize legal unions for adoptions. The problem with this is that gay people, like all citizens, pay taxes that buy these public services.
Louisiana governor Bobby Jindal (R) refused to respect the ruling until a lower appeals court affirmed it. The appeals court, however, is subject to the authority of the Supreme Court. When the appeals court did affirm it, Jindal refused to acknowledge it and said he would wait for the inevitable word from the District Court which is, again, under the authority of the Supreme Court (Jindal is seeking the Republican nomination for President and hopes that his attempts to disenfranchise gay people will boost his low polling numbers among the party base).
In Tennessee, an entire county clerk's office has resigned in opposition to the ruling. "It's for the glory of God. He's going to get all the glory," said Decatur County Clerk Gwen Pope. Many people on both sides of the issue praised their decision; some because of the conviction of their beliefs, and others for their realization that refusing to do your job makes you wholly unqualified to have it.
Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton tried to tell county clerks that they can refuse to serve same-sex couples on the basis of religious liberty. He warned that they may be sued for doing so, but claimed that plenty of lawyers would defend them in court pro-bono.
What's Wrong
The same clerks that deny service to gay couples on religious grounds issue licenses on a regular basis to adulterers, divorcees, people that do not observe the Sabbath, who take the Lord's name in vain, consume pork and shrimp, steal, and lie. Yet in their minds, their religious liberty conveniently hinges solely on denying same-sex couples a license.
The fact that some clerks have a belief about what marriage is that is contradictory to the actual legal definition is completely beside the point. You have the freedom to believe whatever you want; you can believe that elephants are 200ft. tall or that snakes talk it doesn't change any facts of the matter.
There have also been some churches and religious leaders going out of their way to try and play the victim. Two ministers in Idaho filed a lawsuit against the city of Coeur d'Alene alleging they would face 180 years in jail for refusing to perform a wedding for a gay couple.
The problem with that is clergy cannot be sentenced to jail time or even fined for refusing to marry anyone for any reason. Since they registered their wedding chapel as a religious corporation, their business cannot face a penalty.
"We have never threatened them. We have never sent them a letter warning them. There was no 'we're going to throw you in jail' kind of stuff. So we were mildly surprised, well, totally surprised by the lawsuit," said Mike Gridley, attorney for the city.
The suite garnered so much attention from paranoid "marriage traditionalists" that Presidential candidate Mike Huckabee weighed in on the issue. "Remember when
same-sex marriage activists used to claim that it would never infringe on other people's religious beliefs? Well, that was a lie." That is certainly an ironic choice of words.
The Jubilee Christian Center in San Jose, California suspended all weddings for the irrational fear of being forced to cater to gay couples. "I am not a religious bigot," said Pastor Dick Bernal, "it's just what I believe."
There are similar stories all around the country. While researching this very article, I came across several blogs with their comments sections teeming with impassioned misconception and false victimhood. It is as if some Christians try to be Christ-like not in being charitable and loving, but by attempting to emulate the fact that Jesus was a victim of society. Unfortunately for them, that's just not how it works. Jesus went so far as to instruct his followers to abide by the laws of their government, saying "Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." [Mark 12:17]
The Supreme Court ruling is certainly a victory for the gay community, religious believers of equality, and the 14th Amendment, but for gay people, there is still a long way to go. In many locations you can be fired for no reason related to your ability to do your job, but simply because you are gay. You can lose your housing at the whim of a bigot. It is important that conservatives stop imagining that they are the real victims here and have their false beliefs about repercussions for "traditional marriage" ministers corrected. It is selfish, paranoid, and takes focus away from righting the other wrongs still left.
Sources: BBC, Christian Broadcasting Network, Breitbart
82 comments
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KEITH MARTIN
IT IS NOT OUR RIGHT TO JUDGE ANYONE ONLY GOD CAN DO THAT. OR WE ARE AT RISK OF THE JUDGEMENT OF GOD ON US. YOU DO NOT CHANGE THE MINDS AND HEARTS OF ANYONE BY BRUTAL AND BIGATED RETORIC. AS CHRISTIANS WE CAN NOT FORCE ANYONE TO GOD. THIS IS ALSO A SIN, AS THE RELATION OF GOD AND MAN OR WOMAN IS A INDIVIDUAL THING. NOT TO BE INTERFIERED WITH BY US. YOU MAY SHOW HOW YOUR FAITH HAS CHAGED YOUR LIFE. IT IS UP TO THEM TO ACCEPT OR REJECT GODS LOVE. GOD IS LOVE BEYOND ALL THE UNIVERSE CAN HOLD. TRUST IN HIM TO KNOW FAR BETTER THEN WE IN THIS MATTER.
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Daniel Swan
"Do not Judge, or you yourself will be judged by God" "Ye without sin cast the first stone."
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Rev paul
I agree with daniel
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Diane
Amen!
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Minister R Sepeda
amen
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Terry HAyes
Daniel, you have a greater understanding of God than the people who bash any other religion, race, social class, politics, heritage, language, or nationality. God is the judge not man.
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Charles Lee
The people who are bashing do not have a clue about what Jesus taught. They are the neo-scribes and Pharisees. Read the gospels closely and you will see that the so called religious people of that time were doing exactly what the right is doing today. They were finding fault with others and bashing them. Jesus defended people against their attacks and lashed out at them for their hatred, hypocrisy, and ignorance of the principles of the law. They knew the letter of the law, but they were clueless as to what principles the letter of the law was tying to illustrate. David broke the law when he eat and shared the shew bread from the temple. One could have easily pointed to the "verse" of the law and said "God's word has been violated." Yet Jesus used this event as an example to illustrate the error in strict adherence to the letter of the law. The Spirit of the law is love. Love covers a multitude of faults, and love always over rules the strict letter of the law.
The religious people of the day were constantly cited Jesus' clear violations of the law. He healed on the Sabbath. But each time, Jesus overruled them with the principle, showing how principles over ride the letter. Love is the highest principle. Love trumps (pardon my pun) everything. Jesus illustrated this over and over. But the control freaks and hate mongers will never be able to understand this unless they - dare I say - repent.
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Tim
Amen
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Rob
Mr martin what is Sin?
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mark
depends. in which religion?
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carl
thank you so much for this post. my other half has been going thru so much turmoil and has been troubled in such a way he does not know what way to turn. i believe in love and never hate. thanks again .
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Russ Daniels
Amen, brother. Though I may be opening the door normally used by those who would repress and wound: John 13:34. Directly attributed to our Lord. How can anyone, calling themselves Christian, ignore the Commandment given directly by the Christ? Ours is to abide, not to judge; that is reserved for the Most High. To love one another is not merely "hippie talk", as mentioned in previous texts. If I be mistaken, I would welcome enlightenment and correction.
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Minister Roy Feltson Sr.
Amen
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flugo
'pasture martian': I'm sorry you're so misguided that you end up misquoting, distorting, and misrepresenting the Scriptures.
Jesus gave us the RIGHT to judge! John 7:24 and Luke 17:3 are a few references that demonstrate it IS proper to be discerning, critical, and judgmental of a person's behavior and attitudes.
As a 'pastor' you should be 'rightly dividing the truth'.
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Rev. John D. Partin
Flugo Marx, your great grandfather or grandfather Harpo, if that's who it was, bouncing you on his knee, should certainly have taught you better than all of this nonsense that you are talking here and really to say nothing at all and just pantomime what you want to say, since you will cause less trouble and hatred against yourself that way!! Your great uncles Groucho, Chico, Zeppo, and Gummo should have taught you better than this, too! However, if they didn't, you still have Jesus' own teaching on the subject, which is: "For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again" (Matthew 7:2). So, your condemnation and judgments of gay people will be put right back on you for your issues!! "Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. Whatever a man sows, he will reap in return" (Galatians 6:7). Sow insults, condemnation, and disrespect, as you do, and you will reap that right back on yourself, as Scripture teaches.
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Martha Knight
I have been married three times. No one else's marriage was ever a threat to mine. How could it be? The sanctity of one couple's marriage vows, the meaning of their covenant, is not affected in any way by the marriage vows of others. A devout Catholic, believing that Catholics should marry Catholics, and that divorced persons are not free to remarry while their spouse lives (short of an annulment) and those who do are committing adultery, still do not claim that their own fully compliant marriages are threatened by Protestant marriages or marriages that include previously married and divorced persons.
The Christians who yammer about Leviticus seem clueless about the meaning of "New Testament " (New covenant) and the fact that it replaces the Old Testament, the Mosaic Covenant or Covenant of Law. The New Covenant, stated by Jesus, has TWO Commandments, and the second subsumes the last nine of the Ten Commandments.
Jesus did not speak about sexual orientation, nor did Paul. Sexual orientation was not known about then, only sexual behavior. Same-sex exploitation was common, because it did not bring risk of conceiving unwanted children. Same-sex prostitution in temple worship was common as well. It was not associated with sexual orientation. All sexual exploitation was anathema to Jews, in those times, while some Gentile cultures were okay with it. As for Sodom and Gomorrah, for those who have actually read the Biblical account of it, it should be fairly clear that the evil there was gross inhospitality (toward the desert travelers-- a vicious evil), not a predilection for same-sex or anal intercourse. After all, Lot offered his DAUGHTERS to the howling mob that wanted to degrade and kill the travelers who were his guests.
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Kathleen Baird
Lot's speech to the mob at his door said, "I have two virgin daughters who have not known man. Take them and do with them as you will, just go away". This is the "good & righteous man" who God saved when Sodom & Gomorrah were destroyed! At this point in reading my Bible, I realized this was a Faith that did not value women. After searching with my heart AND my head, I found a Faith I could respect and follow. I have been Wiccan for over 40 years and It's message of honouring women and men, tolerance for other beliefs and "Harm none" has been a bedrock for my life. Wiccans say "Harm none", Jesus said "Do unto others as you would be done by". It is a shame those who profess to be righteous Christians don't practice what Jesus said.
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Daniel Swan
Hypocrites... the very thing Christ detested...
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Rev paul
Amen
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Rev paul
Kathleen your so right
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Diane
Thanks for putting this out, you are right "Harm None"!
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Tracy
Blessed be, Sister Kathleen.
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Charles Lee
Kathleen, if Wiccan is where you have found peace and understanding, then this is where God has lead you. Amen my sister. There is more than one path my sister. Jesus never promoted a religion and he certainly wasn't a Christian. That religion didn't exist in those days. Jesus promoted principles. And those principles are what we were meant to follow. The no one comes to the Father but by me is saying the only way to "salvation" is by living the principles I have shown you by example. One does not have to be a certain religion. If we observe the principles of love, we are following, Jesus, Buddha, Mohammad, and the Book of the Month Club if that is what you want to call it. The label is just that, a label. May the Goddess bless you.
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Terry HAyes
If you are apposed to gay marriage and do not wish to officiate a gay marriage that is fine. Those are your beliefs and you have every right to live by those standards. But if you work for a governing body you are obligated to follow the law. If a couple wishes to marry and regardless of their religious, racial or sexual preference and in your judgement their union is a just and loving relationship let them be married. Or would it be better to let them marry some other persons and divorce time and time again?
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Rev paul
Your right on the money here
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Brother Chris
In my opinion, as fellow ministers, we should remember the Universal Life Church belief that we are ALL children of the same universe. We need not talk about “Christians”, “Buddhists”, or “Hindus”. I unequivocally feel Sharia Law, or any other similar belief system, is/are barbaric and could even be considered a crime against humanity. What Ronald said about Christians killing people is fact, as well as the point Phil made about Sharia Law, etc.. What we need to do, as fellow human beings, is to first work towards understanding one another. Then, as past and current missionaries have done/do, we need to attempt to educate the ignorant (apply the dictionary definition of ignorant and not its usual use as an insult) and hopefully enlighten them that to oppress anyone, for any reason, is wrong.
A few years ago, there was a very popular term being thrown about…..”What would Jesus do?”. Everyone can have their opinion as to what they believe Jesus would do on the same-sex marriage issue. I personally believe that if Jesus were walking the Earth today, he would love his fellow man (mankind), regardless of who he or she loves. To me, judgmental people have character flaws and that to be truly enlightened, one must remain open minded to the best of their ability.
I cannot define sin, but I do believe we all sin, probably on a daily basis and we, as mere humans, do not have the authority to define sin, nor to decide which sins are better or worse than other sins. What we need to do is to be confident that God knows what he’s doing. Are homosexuals instruments of Satan, or are the negative, fear mongerers who attempt to manipulate people with such ridiculous and outrageous statements as, “The War on Christians” really the instruments of Satan.
I learned a long time ago to not only understand what others say, but to also try to learn why they said it (hidden agendas perhaps?). Look at the persons refusing to abide by the Supreme Court ruling…….they are, for the most part, politicians. Stop concentrating so much on what they are saying and try to understand why they are saying it. Governor Jindal is merely doing (in my opinion) what he believes his constituents would want him to do. Governor Jindal is a long-shot to be President, but I’m pretty sure he’ll still want to be Louisiana Governor beyond the next Presidential elections. Honestly, sometimes when politicians say certain things, I do get a bit angry (I am human after all), but I always revert to “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”.
To interpret this recent Supreme Court decision as a “War on Christians” is absolutely ludicrous. Most of the Supreme Court Justices are Christians……..are they waging war on themselves? Of course not, they merely applied the law of the land. The only argument against same-sex marriage is based on religion. I was not surprised in the least by the Supreme Court’s decision; to me, it was common sense. Thankfully, those public servants know what their duties are, regardless of any religious beliefs they may have on the issue. Also, the Bill of Rights was intended to grant certain rights to the citizens of the USA, not to take rights away from them.
Beside being a minister of the Universal Life Church, I am a former (retired) police officer. Over the 24 years in which I served the citizens of my city, several times I was dispatched to abortion clinics due to some altercation between demonstrators on both sides of the abortion rights issue. When dealing with these situations, I was always (and was always expected to be) completely impartial, despite any personal feelings I may have held on the issue. I understood and performed my duties as a public servant, regardless of personal feelings and opinions, because that was my duty. Had I shown a bias, one way or the other, there certainly would have been a complaint lodged against me by one of the parties involved and I ultimately and rightfully so, would have been issued punitive discipline. If public servants resigned due to their refusal to issue same-sex marriage licenses, so be it. They actually made things much easier for their respective employers, as they should have had their employment terminated for refusing to perform their DUTIES.
People can marry someone of the same sex while other people can certainly practice and believe in their religion as they wish…….life goes on. Another point about the “War on Christians”; not too long ago (relatively), the Civil Rights Act was signed into law and in reaction to it, most of the people who interpreted the Civil Rights Act as a “War on White People” were members of the KKK. Now, some 50 years later, most people look back on that as ridiculous rhetoric. I believe most will agree that Klan members are quite ignorant and extremely judgmental on certain issues, while at the same time, oddly claiming to be Christians. I wonder if they ever contemplate, “what would Jesus do?”? Although I do not agree with many of the opinions on the issue, I absolutely respect everyone’s RIGHT to express their opinion.
I sincerely believe we are all here in life to help one another and that this is the test given to us by God. As such, I love and respect all of my fellow ministers. Keep the faith!
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Minister Roy Feltson Sr.
Well said my brother. Amen
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Carrie
Ah, Terry, you go right to the core. As much as I don't like Donald Trump at least he was honest when he spoke about same sex marriage. He basically said that he was no judge having been married as many times as he was. Since marriage is a union between two who want to make a life together in mutual love and respect, we should celebrate it. While I won't condemn anyone for being divorced, it should automatically preclude them from passing judgement on any who wish to be allowed to marry just once. As for Christianity being under attack, why do they think they can push a lunatic ideology by playing the persecution card? While it may have been true two thousand years ago, the left has become the kind of bullies that the Roman Empire was, saying that those who fall "outside" their concept of "normal" should be exiled or even put to death. That is ludacris to the extreme! Your faith is a personal matter and should be kept that way. My father was a decorated soldier in two wars, and very old school but he firmly believed "I may not like everything you say but I will fight to the death for your right to say it." Opinions are like your household trash. Everyone has a bag or two, it's just that some smell better than others. Remember what happened just a mere 77 years ago? A little man with a twisted brain, pushed a mad idea about the "norms" of society. Millions of humans died because of his madness, Germans, Russians, English, American, Italian, French.......Jews, Christians, Gypsies, Gays.....I could continue this list for a long time but enough said. I would like to think that we won't let it happen again but, I begin to feel overly optimistic when I hear some of the vitriol that is being spread like "common" knowledge.
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Martha Knight
THE LEFT? I don't think it is a "left" or liberal political orientation that is into bullying individuals or groups for being non-standard or out of the mainstream.
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Joe Stutler
I think you meant "right", not "left". Even then, it's not all all the right who are trying to impose their ideology on the rest of us, just a select sampling of those on the far fringes who believe they have been appointed to speak for their god. Fortunately, although they're rather vocal, they're a small minority.
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Ryan Palumbi
As I was raised Catholic, people like this make me ashamed I was, but also proud because I haven't been Catholic in years, having switched over up a more spiritual belief system. When I was a child though, I was raised to believe that only God, had a right to judge anyone...it seems they're all out there believing they are God or a God. God never sent anyone away and he created us all, that's what certain religious systems of this nature believe. That's what I grew up believing and still believe. Sadly, he also created closed minded, moronic, bigots, racists, and sexist people as well....you don't see anyone revoking their rights to life, love, and the pursuit of happiness. The angels are crying, and if these people really believe that God approves their messages....then this world is truly in chaos.
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Martha Knight
Right, Terry. Churches may set their own rules concerning marriage (or not!). Individual clergy whose preparation and ordination did not require acceptance of specific rules concerning marriage also may make their own determinations concerning whether they should participate by officiating a given marriage. But public officials who take oaths of office swear that they will uphold the constitutions and laws of the nation and the state. If an official encounters a situation when he/she feels unable to live up to the oath of office and perform its duties as required by law, it's time to resign.
Serving as a Free Methodist pastor, for instance, would preclude that person from marrying a couple who had not undergone the required marriage preparation, a process that also allows the pastor to form an opinion as to whether the two people can enter into a covenant to be life partners that has all the knowable "oneness" of belief and mutual understanding and intention that are needed for an enduring, meant to to be lifelong, marriage. If that pastor does not honestly believe the essential "ingredients" are present for that, he/she may not officiate the marriage, and the couple may not marry in a Free Methodist Church. But the couple are free to marry in another church that does not have such requirements, or in a civil ceremony, or wherever, with an officiant who does not have any barriers relating to his/her ordination or installation. If the officiant is a city clerk, a military officer, a judge or other holder of public office, he/she is sworn to uphold the law. Not necessarily the law as it was when he/she was elected or appointed, but the law as it undergoes changes through legislation or court rulings. When the law changes such that an official can no longer carry out his/her lawful duties, the official who is citing the primacy of his/her conscience should, in all good conscience, leave that office.
There are Christian denominations that refuse to marry persons who have lived together as a couple. So? But there are others, and independent churches, and individual clergypersons, and public officials, who have no such restrictions. In any event the couple will need a marriage license, and public officials empowered by office and law to issue those should do so or take the obvious action of removing themselves from the office that conflicts with their personal beliefs.
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Pastor P.
To love and be loved is our sole mission here. It is our Soul mission to be able to express that love in the manner befitting our heart. The protest against the freedom and equality of marriage is based on a heart and soul whose sole purpose is to confer on others a set of moral coding which denies this freedom. To couch it in 'scripture' is to use religion as a weapon. The theology espoused by 'Conservative Christians' is in fact old fashioned bigotry masked as a 'War on Christianity'. How low and dispirited can some folks be?
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Rev Dr John
Rev John, it is a sad state of affairs that some Governors are encouraging dissent of the authority of the US supreme court, so much for democracy, loving couples gay or str8 should be encouraged not discouraged a little more love in families may halt the rise in maladjusted kids going on gun rampages, a family that exudes love would make for a more stable society and a better world, remember my brothers & sisters GOD IS LOVE!
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Rev paul
I agree one hundred percent
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Paula Galehouse
I believe only God has the right to judge and he will in the end.
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H Smith
Government did not define marriage so government can not redefine it.
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M.E.Holt C.N.
This issue has been around form the beginning of time. Why is everyone so outraged now? Calmly look at what's happening. We have instant access to everyone's business, personal or not. It's hard to be a private person in todays world. So many do what they feel is politically correct, or yell loud enough to get their way. As a Christian I would welcome any 'gay' person into my church & thank God for this opportunity to talk with them about Gods laws in a kind way. I believe many are caught in this snare from Satan, who's very pleased in his ability to deceive the weak, lonely , and confused. We have to remember the words 'Judge not'. It's hard, very hard at times, but then isn't most things we don't understand.
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Rev paul
Your correct we must welcome gays into our church and talk to them about God
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Rev Dr John
Please don't run away with the idea being gay is in any way associated with devil I know many loving gay Christians , Muslims and Buddhists don't confuse religious beliefs and being gay the two can sit together comfortably it's the bigotry we need to confront a loving relationship built on a firm faith based foundation isn't a threat it's a blessing!
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JG
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions, as they say.
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Daniel Swan
Mrs. Holt you're wrong on that issue. For example, Roman soldiers were encouraged to sleep with one another for comradery. Even the way Christians celebrate Christmas was almost the same tradition (before Christ was born) as the Greeks during that time of year.... who gave each other presents, decorated trees, and showed their love to each other by sleeping with one another.... the men. There are many other examples like that. historically speaking. Honestly, man may have been made in God's image, but man's intelligence (what little there is) wasn't.
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Ryan Palumbi
So what are your saying? That homosexuals are ruled by satan? Don't you find it just the strangest bit odd, that there are so many homosexuals on earth, it isn't just one or two, or a rare oddity...it's bc God made them that way! It was probably a test to see how many close minded people there are in the world and which amongst those close minded people weren't fit to enter heaven when they die, bc their narrow minded tiny brains wouldn't allow them to. I hardly think talking to a homosexual about God and the church and the bible is going to make then turn straight. I'm personally straight but if I wasn't, and someone came along with that mindset and started trying to change something I was born with, I'd tell them where to stick their beliefs! We are ALL God's children, and none of us are ever going to be able to please everyone, but the nice thing about that is we don't have to! Our lives and choices should be just that, our own. If a gay couple asked me to perform their wedding service for them, I'd do it with pride and love in my heart!
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JG
Sad day indeed when the government legislates morality through non-elected judges, at least two of which are mortally biased and should have done the ethical thing and recused themselves. However as their actions and judgements show, ethics is the last thing on their minds. I encourage everyone to go to the Supreme Court website and read the dissents from Chief Justice Roberts and Justice Scalia, and you will very plainly see that this flawed and immoral court decision is a travesy of justice, a mockery of the judicial process, and an affront to morality and the Constitution of the United States of America.
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Rev Dr John
Amen to that brother
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Eric k
Wow, after reading all these comments I had to get my 2 cents in. First off if 2 individuals want to get married so they can have all the rights they deserve that is the correct thing to do. I may not personally think being gay is OK because of any religious belief I hold< but it is no ones right to place judgement only GOD can do that.
What about those who are told they can't have the bread and wine because they live with a partner in sin, because they are not married. A lot of pastors feel this and will not offer this to these individuals. Its the same old same old.
Individuals need to just judge themselves for their own beliefs and actions. Let all who want to marry get married GAY or Straight. If they are willing to make the life commitment and want a legal bond let it be done.
I would be willing to marry any couple as a Pastor without judgement of their sexual orientation because that is not my place or anyone elses its Gods
Jesus is all about Love for one another. The bible says the most important thing Jesus wants us to do is love each other.
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bob b
Know that they have the right to marry then they should stop giving benefits until they marry. You can't have both..make them get married or loose all benefits there getting from their patners. If your straight you have to marry.
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Joe Stutler
What benefits do they get without being married that other not-married couples don't get?
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Richard
I would like to clear up a misconception about marriage. The actual meaning has been lost because of religious dogma. The bible says that God gave marriage so that he could continue on the earth because after his fall he was now going to die that meant that marriage was the act of procreating new life to succeed those that die so man could continue it has nothing to do with 2 people wanting to live together because they're in love. Even the angels who left their naatural abode the bible says they married whoever they willed and children were born to them. Do you think their were ministers waiting around to marry them . Even the church says the marriage never took place if there was no intercourse. Only a man and a woman can procreate they sex therefore only a man and woman can marry if gays want to live together who care just call it a union if a man and a woman never have children then they never married . It is only for the purpose carrying on the species.
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Rev Dr John
A wee bit too clinical for me, I don't think I am beginning to wish I hadn't commented all this point scoring isn't good
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Joe Stutler
Your "clearing up" really didn't clear anything up. You're also not really accurate. Marriage didn't originate with Christianity nor Judaism nor other biblical sources. The concept of marriage has been around in various cultures across the globe for far longer than the Bible. Some churches would agree with your stance, but many others do not, and many other faith traditions also do not. Regardless, marriage in the United States is a civil issue, subject to the Rule of Law and not whim of theology. It may or may not have anything to do with one's faith tradition. As for sex, it's for far more than mere procreation.
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rick
I do not want to receive your emails, and you are judging me when you say we are judging others , are we to follow the law of man or the law of God as written in the ENTIRE Bible , and Jesus did judge homosexuality and many other sins in galatians , and we have not had church discipline in the last forty or so years and that is the reason we are a post christian nation , I will leave it up to Jesus and God the Father to addres who may enter heaven and the new earth , but we are commanded to warn others and ourselves , about the coming judgement, we are in the end times and we do have more apostasy churches then at any time and those who are told by man they will be saved ,it will be too late! so I'll folow the God of the bible not man, there is a right way and a wrong way and only one way , its thru Jesus and him alone !!
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JG
Amen, my brother Rick. The truth is hard for some to swallow (no pun intended) and yet the truth still remains. I agree with you 100%.
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Rev. Dr. Shahbaz Khokhar,
Yes, no doubt we may obey the Law of our Country Governors but we may give preference to Law of God. God needs our Love and he who love to God, He became merciful on them. What ever law regarding marriage is going to pass or has been passed, is, if only for living to9gather in proper manners, upto here is no bad, but if, it is involve sexual relations then Commandments of God regarding adultery as as under, 1. Exodus 20:14-Thou shalt not commit adultery. 2. Deuteronomy 5:18= Neither shalt thou commit adultery. 3. Matthew 19:18 =He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 4. Mark 10:19 =Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. 1-Adultery 2-Murder 3-Steal 4.False 5-witness 6-Defraud.
So we may give preference to Law of God over and above Law of Country.
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Michelle
Love always win God so loved the world he gave he's only son I don't understand why they can't just let love be just love no matter shape color size genders ect LOVE WON LET HATE GO
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Ed
"Conservative public officials are balking at the ruling and refusing to issue marriage licenses to gay couples, process name-change paperwork, and recognize legal unions for adoptions. The problem with this is that gay people, like all citizens, pay taxes that buy these public services."
In this case, yes, they have a job to do, they have to do it. If they, as a public worker, do not want to do the job, then they need to be let go. The job isn't in a field of religion, so they have to deal with it.
"In Tennessee, an entire county clerk’s office has resigned in opposition to the ruling." Both sides are true. If they feel that it is going agianst their beliefs, then they are not in the right job. We're told to keep church and state seperate. If they can't, then they have all the right to quit, and someone else can do their job.
Actually, a couple in CDA, ID, did try to take a place called The Hitching Post to court, for refusing to marry them. A number of people were trying to claim that they're not a religious organization, so that they HAD to marry. Maybe, by "religious organization," they meant so big meag-church, that's 501c3, with ministers that have degrees. By that definition, a lot of ULC, and similar churches, wouldn't have ministers. That's infringing on the beliefs of The Hitching Post persnonnel. It's wrong when someone tries to decide who and what is a church, and "some business," just to force them to marry you. Oh, and they don't have to be a "corporation," and subjegate themselves to government control via 501c3. Churches are automatically exempt.
For "Render To Caesar," go to Myth 3: "The obvious question to be asked is at what time did Jesus place His church under the authority and jurisdiction of Caesar (the State)?
Mark 12:17 is the most brilliant teaching on lawful authority and legal jurisdiction that anyone has ever uttered. We can properly interpret Jesus’ teaching in this way, “Don’t render to Caesar the things that don't belong Caesar.” http://hushmoney.org/501c3-myths.htm
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Minister Rob
Why do many Christians believe that only their holy book, or their interpretation of it, is correct? Of the Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, etc., who is correct? There are even different versions/interpretations of the Bible, even within the same congregations sometimes!
Why do many Jews believe that only their holy book, or their interpretation of it, is correct? Of the Hasidics, Messianics, Orthodox, etc., who is correct?
Why do many Muslims believe that only their holy book, or their interpretation of it, is correct? Of the Shiites, Sunnis, Suffi, etc., who is correct?
Why do many Buddhists believe that their way of life is correct?
Why do many Hindus believe that only their holy book, or their interpretation of it, is correct?
Why do many athiests believe that there is no way that a higher power exists?
Why do many Taoists believe that THEIR way is THE way?
Why do many Wiccans believe what they believe?
Etc.
Wouldn't an omnipotent Creator or universe have the power to make them ALL correct or incorrect, whether separately in time or simultaneously? Wrap your mind around that for a moment.
Live your lives. Try to be good to yourselves. Try to be good to others. We aren't always going to make the best decisions or perform flawlessly. Others won't either. What was bad or good yesterday may be different tomorrow...or the same. Consider the context. Consider the "why?".
Regardless of our beliefs, we could ALL be wiped off this earth tomorrow...meteor, nukes, super volcano, solar mega-flare, etc. What is truly important?
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Daniel Swan
Why? Its the human capacity for puratism. In the end, whatever or however people choose to live their lives, its their choice. The ones who scream the loudest are also the ones fixated on control. Those with the capacity and audacity to believe they have the right to tell people what they can and can not do, and don't follow their own rules or laws are void, much like our own United States government. No one will ever tell me how to live my life. I'd rather die, and in your heart of hearts you know most human beings have the affinity to control.
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John Elder
At the end of the day what does it really matter, and who does it hurt, no-one except those of same sex relationships.
All this effort by religious organizations into opposing gay marriage is a complete and utter waste of time, when they should be putting their efforts into helping others, and trying to improve the lives of their families, or those around them. There are so many bad things happening around us and in the world, hunger, poverty, extortion, child abuse, wife battering, crime and so much more happening around the world, that ALL religious organizations should be opposing items like these, not wasting time and money on opposing same sex marriages. There are so many good things done by religious organizations around the world, but also so many bad things.
Whatever you believe or religious practices you live by have no bearing on same sex marriages. One main thing people forget is religion is a lifestyle choice. I choose to believe in and worship God, but I would never force my religious views upon others, not even my children.
As for the scriptures, there are many different texts and believes out there, that whenever one argument is put forward from scripture it can be opposed by another argument from scripture. Maybe these religious, should I say bigots, or fanatics, should take the time and effort to actually study the history of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and other non related Jewish derived religions and see what history tells us, instead of quoting words from a book, they may also actually gain a greater understanding and broaden their horizons, and luckily for us this information is freely available on the internet.
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Rev. Donna
Bigotry is not of God. Love is all there is. Jesus welcomed all people & God created all people. Each one is precious & part of the kingdom - unconditionally.
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Chill Draggon
Our founding fathers were deists. Nothing in our defining documents iddntifies us as a Christian nation. Deists believe there is a god...which is common to all religions. (If you consider atheism as a religion as opposed to a philosophy, mark that as an exception.) "Creator" does not equal Christ. The christian bibles have been very selective in which ancient writings were considered to be "the word of God." Before the printing press was invented, people made copies by hand...no way to know how accurate these copies were. It was 100 hears after Christ that the first known writings were made...what took God so long to get it in writing? How many versions were re-written for political reasons? It was centuries before the masses could read for themselves. People can believe anything, but don't foist your cockeyed beliefs on me. The US seems more at risk from rabid, right-wing fundamentalist christians than from any other religion. Be missionaries and convert people one by one, if you choose, but that means you explain and convince. Tyrannical declarations have no place in our free and democratic society.
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Daniel Swan
Minister Ron, You're running on the assumption that we still live in a free and democratic society, but we don't. Granted, we aren't like Iraq, for example, but we've stepped backwards about a hundred years as a progressive society for the citizens of this country. Unfortunately, our Federal Leaders have found it pertinent to bail out banks and major corporations from ultimate destruction due to the economy that they themselves annihilated after N.A.F.T.A. was signed, allowing every major corporation to move overseas and sweat shop men, women and children for cheaply made goods that just add to the pollution of this country due to the goods' inability to last; Cheap labor from sweat shopping the human race in third world countries isn't exactly what I call humane, not to mention that safety regulations and child labor laws do not apply in many of those areas that are here in the United States. It's interesting to note that not only did our own leaders allow and condone such malicious behavior from major corporate leaders, than the fact that they wouldn't have their seats of power to begin with without the billion dollar lobbyist support for their campaigns. Who is really running this country, and more importantly, whose agendas are really being pushed forward? At one time, perhaps, the will of the American people was recognized, because the whole backbone of the representative democracy we're supposedly living in today was to represent the people's will, not the will of controlling interests of money-driven, soulless human beings running major banks and corporations, but that's the America we live in today, or perhaps that's the way it's always been, and only now is it being brought to light thanks to the birth of the internet, and for now at least, the freedom of knowledge and information. Then again, I'm not expecting that to last too long either, due to the Patriot Act, and the fact that Homeland Security/Gestapo can arrest you for ANYTHING suspicious, which is why a friend of mine quit the American Gestapo. I won't even begin to tell you what he's told me, because I don't want him to wind up like Snowden; the man who blew the whistle on the NSA for their monitoring of the American people.... look what happened to Snowden. Never mind that he warned America about what the NSA was doing, and the scariest part is: Our corrupt leaders were so ingrained on putting Sowdens head on a silver platter that they barely even addressed the issue that we have armed drones flying over our heads in most states, or that "Cloud" online back up is nothing more than another way for them to monitor our daily activities. Why the hell can't anyone see what's becoming of our nation? Are people really that stupid? Or do people just NOT give a crap? The more lee way we give our Gods on Olympus... the more they will take away HUMAN RIGHTS, and all that will be left is Nazi principals. Human history repeats itself forever more.
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Terry HAyes
I think there maybe a reference in the Old Testament.
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eric k
The bottom line, who are any of us to judge an individual choice to be gay and get married, in Christian belief being same sex sexuality active will keep you from getting in heaven. So will most of what we do has humans.
Repent and accept Jesus in your life as savior then you have a chance at heaven, my opinion,
Love is Love but it might keep you from getting through the gate.
Merry Christmas
Christians are responsible for the killing of enormous numbers of people who did not accept their dogma. Now we must accept their objection to those in a loving relationship.Jesus does not seem to be the god of love after all.
The UN stated last year, that 100,000 Christians were being killed every year, That is the official figure. Ronald Fox Please refrain from making sweeping statements. If you are going to make statements research your subject. shall we discuss Sharia Law? How about Tibetan Buddhism or perhaps Hindu beliefs ?
So Phil you are hiding Conservative Christian bigotry behind Sharia law? Not much of a shield. Yes, Christians are killed in the Middle East but Rons point was that Christian's have also killed many in the name of their faith. No one has clean hands. I think the whole point is that every human being should have the freedom to love and marry whom they choose. If that violates your views of your faith, fine. Just don't participate, no one is forcing you to. But if you are going to work for the government or have some other position of authority such as an employer, you don't have the right to ram your religious beliefs down on everyone else and punish them if they don't accept them. Punish them through firing them, refusing them a hotel room, marriage license etc.
Thank you for your replay to Phil, Gary. Phil and people who think like him represent what is poisoning Christianity and faith as a whole. He most likely thinks his way is the only way, a horrible fallacy. Yet a fallacy that allows one to justify hatred and bigotry as an act of faith. It also allows one to see change as an attack on one's faith. An absurdity. It is - if anything - an attack on narrow minded ignorance. No one is saying Christians cannot practice their faith. No one is trying to restrict them. It is certain groups of so called Christians that are trying to tell everyone else how to live. They are free to practice their faith, but they are not free to restrict anyone else. Then these lying, underhanded, self serving politicians pander to them for votes and they eat it up. It that is Christianity, show me the exit ramp.
Christ was the one who advocated love, non-judgement, and empathy. The "self proclaimed" Christians who twist the Bible to their own agendas are NOT Christians; In actuality, those people are the hypocritical Modern Day Pharisees, the very people who Christ repeatedly put in their place. Christ never said anything about homosexuality one way or another. My whole argument is if he had no focus on it whatsoever, then Christians shouldn't either. All the hate and bigotry is the "old" law.... the law of the Jews; The Old Testament. The New Testament; The NEW covenant God made with man through CHRIST is what CHRIST(IANS) should be focusing on. Homosexuality should NEVER have been a debate among Christians to begin with. Since "self-proclaimers" have the need to use that wonderful word "abomination" for their hatred towards homosexuals, let's name off a few other "abominations".... The consuming of shell fish, sal, and wearing mixed linens were also abominations. I like shrimp with a passion, have had Christmas Ham, and my clothes are certainly "mixed linens". Hmmmm.... One last note to add: SIN IS SIN... there's only one unforgivable sin, which is to deny the holy spirit. Tell the "self proclaimers" to keep that in mind, and to stop behaving like Pharisees, and start behaving like Christ.
Amen!!!
AMEN!
Your reading of scripture is seriously flawed, as is the problem wtih most liberal feel-good nonsense, and conscientously leaves out sections in which Jesus most certainly did his share of rebuking, angry outbursts at sinners, and chastising those in need of correction. The world grows weary of the "God is Love, Man is Love" hippie garbage, and yearns for the true path to God.
Whatever your flavor to keep the hate alive, bud. Keep telling that to yourself. It's your story, tell it however you like. There's always been people out there using the bible for their own propaganda and agendas, twisting it to their own needs. I interpret love, while most interpret hate, separation, and war. That's okay. Misery loves company.
Amen Daniel. When Jesus was hanging out with the "sinners" of his day it was the hypocritical scribes and Pharisees who heaped criticism on him. If you look closely the vast majority of Jesus' so called outburst was against religious people of his day. Judgemental narrow minded people like today's so called Christian right. I believe he also said to get the log out of your own eye before trying to get the splinter out of your eye. The kind of Christianity that the right is promoting is nothing but bigotry and hatred, sprinkled with a huge degree of the need to control others. Definitely not what Christ taught.
Christ did mention homosexual practices in the New Testament just like It was mention in the Old. The term 'homosexual' was not used since it didn't exist in their vocabulary thousands of years ago. Other words, terms and descriptions were used in it's place. The law that Christ removed was The Law of Moses. This does not apply to Christians however EVERYTHING else in the Old Testament still does.. I repeat the only exception is the Law of Moses. Christians are to be forgiving, loving (there are different kinds of love) and repentant. Just as God loves us, he will also punish us. Same sex marriage laws may protect religious NON-Profit business, but does NOTHING to protect an individual minister and their religious rights.
Where does Christ mention homosexuality in the New Testement? I've been through four years of Christian theology in college without the dogma. I've never read him once saying anything about it. Not the word.... Man lay with another man, no indication in any way. Can you site it for me?
Again this is ignorance of people not studying for themselves. Nowhere in the gospel did Jesus utter a word about homosexuality. I have found, that if one reads the Bible without the filter of religious dogma, one gets an entirely different picture.
'denial': Your lopsided contentions impress NO one! it's typical of those who have opinions yet call them facts.
"Christ never said anything about homosexuality one way or another" Whoops! You blew it, again! In Matthew 19:4,5 Jesus underscored the man and wife concept. And, He established the basis of that marriage by referring to the early chapters in the book of Genesis. God's original marriage design is man and woman.. Homosexuality is perverse, sinful, and abnormal.
Jesus judged (Matthew 7:6, 15-16, among many other times) and taught us how to judge (John 7:24; Luke 17:3 among other examples). Judging is NOT hatred, as you implied..
Jesus is the personification of God, What God hates, Jesus hates; and what God loves, Jesus loves.
Your comments are unbalanced, misleading, and off the mark.
Amen
it was the old testament, not the new. Jesus taught love & fogiveness, never hatred or bigotry.
The way I see all this is to go back too the bible and see what is true and not , we must in see the real truth about how and whom can be in the eyes of god to become wedded.. If god book of life is true for all to become married do let it become but if god plan is not in the true word of the bible then let it not become marriage. God do have plans for all walks of life and so do Satan.
Ronald Fox, this blog was supposed to be about marriage. HOW DID YOU GET FROM MARRIAGE TO KILLING? There is no Christian-sponsored murder going on in this country. No persecution of minorities. What on Earth are you raving about? What does any of that have to do with marriage? And who do you think YOU are, to criticize Christ? When you do that, you make yourself a blasphemer, meaning nothing you say is to be taken seriously, because of your own irreverence.