Should businesses be allowed to refuse service to LGBTQ customers on religious grounds?
Bakers, florists, and other vendors have all sparked outrage for refusing to serve homosexual couples, arguing that doing so would violate their Christian principles. Now, a wedding vendor in Michigan wants to join the club.
A new wedding venue in the Grand Rapids area is courting controversy with its public announcement that it won’t be serving same-sex couples at the establishment.
The Christian wedding venue owners say they will turn away same-sex couples because they are religiously opposed to such unions.
Saying ‘I Do’ to Discrimination
“We feel like this is a different vibe from other venues in the area. So we wanted to bring something new to people of Grand Rapids and ultimately, we love love,” says Hannah Natale, who co-owns The Broadway Avenue wedding venue with her husband, Nick.
The "different vibe" they’re going for appears to be a discriminatory one.
A message announcing their decision not to serve same-sex couples posted on the venue’s Instagram account is going viral.
“Our business is the result of a lot of hard work and dedication and is a reflection of who we are, and the values and beliefs we hold from our faith in Jesus Christ,” the message reads. “As a result, we would like our business to remain true to our Christian faith and this includes marriage.”
Arguing that their “Christian values and beliefs have no effect on how we treat people,” the couple says that they have no problem hiring gay vendors or employees, and won’t turn away gay wedding guests.
The policy extends only to same-sex couples and couples in which at least one partner is transgender, and they say that members of the LGBTQ community are welcome to use their space for other non-marriage related events, like birthday parties.
Here's the full post:
As you might imagine, the message didn’t go over all that well.
Critics Speak Now, Don’t Hold Their Peace
Days after the message was posted, a group of about 20 rainbow-clad protesters gathered outside the business in protest. Holding signs with messages like “Hospitality ≠ Homophobia” and “I respectfully disagree with your bigotry”.
“If you are offering a public service, you need to be open and inclusive. You can’t discriminate based off of XYZ,” argues demonstration co-organizer Meghan Cytacki-Lewis.
Another organizer, Jessica Krebs, says she’s simply over LGBTQ repeatedly being excluded or made to feel like second class citizens over and over again. “I’m so tired of having this conversation,” she says, “of us trying to convince people of our value and worth as humans and our love or anything else.”
They say that if the venue is going to have a discriminatory policy, it needs to be posted clearly on their website, so that couples – gay and straight alike – can make a judgment call on whether they want to do business with them or not.
Social media, similarly, was not kind to the Natales’ vision of a wedding venue only for straight couples. Many sarcastically pondered if they’d also be turning away divorced individuals from using their venue, since the Bible also forbids that.
Sticking to Their Guns
As for the venue owners, they’re not backing down, despite the backlash. They say their minds are made up and that the decision to bar same-sex couples from marrying in their venue is final, and they’re refusing to refund couples who are canceling their bookings after learning of their views on same-sex marriage.
One big question looms over the whole story: is this policy legal?
By most indications, it is, though we won't know for sure unless it faces a legal challenge.
You might recall back in 2018, the Supreme Court ruled in favor of Jack Phillips, the Colorado baker who refused to make a cake for a same-sex wedding, citing religious reasons.
Although it was a narrow ruling, the makeup of the Supreme Court has significantly changed since then; some legal experts and pundits suspect today's Court would show even greater sympathy for someone in Phillips' shoes.
What do you think? Should wedding vendors be able to withhold services from same-sex couples if they object on a religious basis?
249 comments
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Minister William Jackson
Move on christians should be aloud to do what they believe in God waving you're flag not going to change anything but Make you look bad. I think people care about what they want to care about and move on. God loves you not your sin He loves a bank robber not his sin So repent Go back to God before to late
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Minister William Jackson Does God love mass murderers? Or what about ministers, pastors, bishops and priests who rape little girls and boys and women? And what if they do it repeatedly? For many decades?
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Minister William Jackson
Move on christians should be aloud to do what they believe in God waving you're flag not going to change anything but Make you look bad. I think people care about what they want to care about and move on. God loves you not your sin He loves a bank robber not his sin So repent Go back to God before to late
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Minister William Jackson
Move on christians should be aloud to do what they believe in God waving you're flag not going to change anything but Make you look bad. I think people care about what they want to care about and move on. God loves you not your sin He loves a bank robber not his sin So repent Go back to God before to late
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Kelly Manning
Wonderful! About time people got back to principles and God's word. Just because it's become acceptable doesn't make it right. God says so. Christians who don't stand on God's word aren't Christians.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Many of us don’t think your political stances, which have been pushed for a long time now, are God’s principles. God didn’t say those things, the Bible, a tool written by man, wrote those things. An the word of god has been changed many times. Man shall not lay with child was the original verse. It was an anti pedophile law that was later changed. If you really wanna God’s law to a T, then you shouldn’t even be writing or telling any man what to do, period. I know it’s sexist and misogynist, but your brand of theocratic politics doesn’t really like women, thems the breaks, don’t cherry pick.
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Julie Armstrong
Every business owner has the right to refuse service. The problem is you don't be rude about it. You can say I am sorry I have such a tight schedule I can not possibly fit in your order. THE LBGTA community is trying to stuff this down our throats. If you have a daughter and a self proclaimed boy wear a dress and says I'm a girl so he can go in the girls restroom and rapes your daughter you would think different. It has happened in Virginia. GOD made man. GOD man woman. NOTHING ELSE. You are made the way you are for a reason not to mutilate yourself. That is a clear sign , you do not trust in GOD, or believe in GOD. You should be praying and worshipping SATAN! Man can't have babies. plain and simple. Just because you reincarnate into a body of a different sex, doesn't mean you are to mutilate yourself, maybe just maybe there is a lesson to be learned. AND YES reincarnation is in the BIBLE. Malachi :5:4, Matthew 11:14, John 1:21
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Lionheart
Do you believe everything you read then, Julie? Have you read the Quran, and the Bhagavad Gita, and other writings of other faiths that those people believe in? How about the Upanishad’s that many believe to be sacred writings?
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Pastor George Day
@Julie Armstrong, Jesus states that Elijah came in the person of John, his cousin, but it doesn't say anywhere that he was the reincarnation of Elijah. On the contrary, Jewish tradition teaches that Elijah was the founder of the Essene movement, transferred into the Catholic church as the Carmelite Order. John the Baptist was an Essene, which makes him act in the name of Elijah. In the whole of the Old Testament whenever one acts in someone's name, it is as if the person bearing that name were acting.
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Keith
Same sex marriage is legal in the United States and to deny the couple from hiring your venue is discriminatory. Co-owner Hannah Natalie states their venue is something new to people of Grand Rapids and ultimately, we love love,” she says. No they don’t love love. Only heterosexual love.
This "different vibe" appears to be a discriminatory and is.
The article states that, “They say “Christian values and beliefs have no effect on how we treat people,” the couple says that they have no problem hiring gay vendors or employees, and won’t turn away gay wedding guests.” This statement can’t be factually true. The couple says their beliefs have no effect on how they treat people. If you treat a group of people differently by not allowing them to marry at your venue then it does effect how you treat people. You also say they have NO Problem hiring gay vendors or employees and want turn away a gay wedding guest. So your Christian beliefs want allow gay people to marry their, but it’s okay to shop gay vendors and hire gay people. That’s being a hypocrite! You like gay people with conditions.
This article also states, “The policy extends only to same-sex couples and couples in which at least one partner is transgender, and they say that members of the LGBTQ community are welcome to use their space for other non-marriage related events, like birthday parties.” So you want gay money for other gay events and birthdays. It should be all or nothing. If I was a gay vendor or a gay person I would boycott your venue for all gay events. Once again, it’s discriminatory to pick and choose which gay functions can take place at your venue. If your business income falls, then you should not cry. You did it too yourself!
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Marquita Phyllis Greig
Some Christians have forgotten that God is Judge, not them. That Christ, God's son, said to love thy brother as your own. That Christ said to his Father to forgive those that were killing him, they don't understand. Christ said to love, not condemn or hate. If you feel that you cannot support this venue and this is understandable, because of their beliefs, please remember they don't understand love or Christ's message of love and forgiveness. They need our prayers to help them have an awakening.
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Lionheart
There is still no demonstrable evidence any god is real, even yours Marquita. No one knows with any surety what Jesus ever said because those who actually wrote about what he is supposed to have said never met him. There is still very little evidence Jesus was real, even though it’s possible he was, or at least someone like him.
Prayers, eg, talking to a wall, floor, or ceiling, (whichever your religion is) seem to have just as much effect as crossing one’s fingers, and usually….none at all.
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Kelly Manning
You don't have to hate people to stand on principle. God says it's wrong. His word doesn't change. As Christians you either follow his word or not. It doesn't mean hate them. You shouldn't hate anyone. You can love people and hate the sin.
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Rev Ned
CINO (Christian in Name Only)
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Curtis K Hargrove
I officiate stright weddings only. My God And my choice.
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Paul Edward Nunis
Which has nothing to do with this article. No officiant has been fined or jailed for declining to solemnize a legal wedding.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Fine. I’ll marry the rest of them. Problem solved.
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Lionheart
Oh, you bigamist! Leave some for others 🤪
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Robert James Ruhnke
So long as all adults who enter into a Plural marriage are all consenting, nothing wrong with it, Kitten Butt.
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Lionheart
I’m all for it, Robert. 🤭
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Pastor George Day
@Robert James Ruhnke, ask their kids!
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Joe Stutler
Oh, so your imaginary magical friend is a bigoted shïtësstäïn as well? Shocker....🙄
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Mark Edwin Currier
I still go to Chick-fil-A a few times a month. Just because they don't open on Sunday's doesn't mean anything to me. Like in this article, that is a private business. I buy premium gas for my motorcycle and Jeep from the gas station with the best offer. Not because the gas station is owned by xyz. Not sure what that wedding venue looks like but since it's in a place hundreds of miles from me it's a moot issue. People will shop to suit their needs and purpose and won't listen to some fake advocates from a gazillion miles away. WTF some people will complain about cold ice cream.
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Thomas A. Follis
Fairly simple. As a Pastor, should I choose not to marry you, I won’t. Now, proceed with your banter. In the end, it’s still my choice.
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Mark Hannon
I am a 60 year old gay man. I've been fired from a job, I've been kept from an apartment and I once was beaten. I've lost so many friends to HIV-Aids.
I'm so tired of this bunk. When can we just move on? Do these people not have anything actually important to get worked up about?
Where did David marry Bathsheba? Did Judah marry his widowed daughter-in-law before he fathered a child with her? Why did Joshua's spies sent to Jericho befriend a prostitute that secured them from harm?
You know why? It's because people are ALL incredibly horrible and that's all anyone is going to find to do anything.
I'm sorry, I'm just tired.
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Joe Stutler
Some humans suck. Cannibal cultists, for example. Don't succumb to the scum. You got this
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Ronald Joseph Dent
I read a comment concerning the privately owned and operated business as a public service. That statement is incorrect. A business open to the public is not a public service. Point of information: A public service is a service which is provided by government to people living within its jurisdiction, either directly (through the public sector) or by financing private provision of services. A privately owned business providing a good or service is no a public service and the owner/proprietor may refuse service while adhering to their religion. I do not have the right to require a person to violate their religious beliefs. I do not have the right to require a person to accept or engage in a lifestyle contrary to their religious beliefs. I live my life according to my beliefs and face the consequences of my decisions. I expect others to do likewise, including those who differ with me.
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Paul Edward Nunis
The term is 'public accomodation'. City water departments are public services. A commercial establishment with a business license (like a restaurant) that is open to the public, is a public accomodation... and is limited in which members of the public they can turn away.
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The Rev. William C, Millhouse
I have no problem with their restrictions as long as they are well noted in advance. Those who then try to get them to do a same sex wedding are just doing it to cause a stink. They should not be forced to go against their beliefs as long as they are not forcing anyone to conform to theirs.
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Bruce Renard Kendall
Mathew 22: 34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” 37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
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Paul Edward Nunis
And also the bit later in Matthew about 'treat the least of these as you would treat Me, or spend eternity in a lake of fire'. But so often handwaved away.
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Jorden Michael
the fact anyone refuses someone because they are gay and calls it against their religion is ridiculous there is nothing in your religion that says to refuse someone because they are gay infact theres nothing in it about gay relationships in the first place its a intentional mistranslation that anyone with a brain can figure out what the original text was referring to
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Mary Dacey
Get out of the business. Especially related to weddings where it should simply be a celebration of love
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Clint Knight
It's very simple! Just go where they cater to your life style. I consider myself tolerant & inclusive and take my business where it's wanted! I have friends that are Islamic, Catholic, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu and we all respect each in others faith, personal beliefs without condemnation. We get along because we choose to not because we're forced too!
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Gizelda Mary Toomer
I believe simple good business practice should be to serve everyone. Stop discriminating against people because they have different beliefs from you. Just keep the personal separate from the business. Stop labeling and putting people into groups. Love everyone equally no matter what.
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Paul Edward Nunis
That is only good business in an ideal world. In real life, 'everyone' includes people who will go out of their way to make it impossible to serve. Of neccessity, each business has to decide where to draw the line, which opens the door for discretion to become discrimination. 🙁
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Harry E Brockway Jr
Their company their right. That said, I hope enough people and companies reject this policy to the point they must rethink it. I feel by doing this, they are passing judgement and we, as Christians, are to love all people and not pass judgement. Maybe I'm wrong. :(
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Bethany Jo McGill-Rizer
Under Michigan’s Elliott-Larsen act this is illegal. The MI Supreme Court ruled last week that sex includes LGBTQ+ protections.
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Paul Edward Nunis
The Rouch ruling seems to cover exactly the same issue as this case, in the same jurisdiction... Sadly, I doubt if the anti-gay rights crowd will leave it alone though.
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Wendy J Riling
My personal belief is that an individual business has the choice to refuse service to whomever they please. And individuals and groups seeking services have the right to not patronize a business as well. I say this as a gay woman as well as an event and wedding photographer. If asked by an extremist group or, frankly, any one who’s values don’t align with my values to photograph an event or wedding I would absolutely want the right to refuse. It works both ways. Provided the refusal of services isn’t state mandated as segregation was, I believe it’s a terrible slippery slope to demand business or individuals provide services.
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Paul Edward Nunis
'Services' and 'serving' don't always mean exactly the same thing. Hiring someone to come to a client and do photography, carries the right of saying 'No' under the 13th Amendment ban on forced work. Asking the government for a license to operate a commercial public accomodation, carries with it a specific list of legally valid refusals to serve, such as a drunken or disruptive patron... not one who is left handed, ugly, a veteran, and so on.
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Pastor George Day
@Paul Edward Nunis, this is why I wouldn't refuse to perform a gay wedding, even if I disagree with calling it a 'marriage.'
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Minister Ronda
Marriage between a man and a woman was instituted by God with Adam and Eve. Genesis 2:24 states: “Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh.” It is disheartening to read all the hate spewed in these comments. Jesus loved all. To love like Jesus, love thy neighbor, love one another is mentioned so many times... Maybe we can all just do that and let that business make their own policies while we love them anyway. Changing the definitions of man and women won't change the world.
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Paul Edward Nunis
So who did Seth marry, to continue the lineage of all humankind? His mother or sisters would have been the only females in creation back then. Or... give up on the fairy tales.
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Amy Varela
Think of the outrage by these holy rollers if businesses refused to serve christians based on their own religious beliefs. I' go without food for a week to support that business.
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Jimmy Moon
What does it matter if they won't serve them. Surely there are other places to choose. The real reason is perverts getting in your face to exploit their agenda. It never will be enough until the world says straights are the perverted lifestyle. But, GOD won't let that happen. Amen.
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Michael Barton
It's legal as long as their venue isn't decided to be a public place, then it falls under the civil rights act.
You shouldn't be forced to do things you do not believe in, even if it's not a religious belief.
There are other options in America.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
This is the problem with Christians and why young people don't what to be Christians today. Christians say marriage is between a man and a women, but then can't tell us what the definition of a man or a women is. Instead they joke about it, and make insults. With one out of every 200 people you meet having been born with a sex "abnormality" I'm thinking many of the Christians who throw out the insults are the ones who have sex abnormalities and this is their way of coping with the way God made them.
If you are a Christian, I will ask this questions again, Please tell me me what the definition of a man and a women is?
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Pastor George Day
The dictionary says it well: a man is an adult human male and a woman is an adult human female. Bingo!
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Pastor George Day If a man is an adult human male and a woman is an adult human female what are infants, children and adolescents? Using your definition they are not adults and therefore are not male or female. Check
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Pastor George Day
@Douglas Robert Spindler, I gave you the Oxford definition. You may wish to write to them and ask.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Pastor George Day If you have to look it up in a dictionary means you do not know. Are you a man, woman, neither or both?
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Can anyone tell me what the definition of a man and a women is? With one out of every 200 live births resulting in a sex abnormality what characteristics do we use to define a man and a women? And what do you call people who have a vagina and a penis? Or neither? Anyone have the definition?
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Ealdormon Piparskeggr Robinson
The historic tern is Hermaphrodite.
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Lionheart
We call those with a penis, and a vagina: Lucky 🤭
We call those with neither: Unlucky 🤷🏼
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Robert James Ruhnke
Oh kitten butt. They’re called Intersex, not unlucky. Look I know you think you’re joking around. It’s not funny. Trans and queer people were also put into the ovens just like Jews were for the same reasons. An I’m sure those same jokes were made as they were being put in. A man is anyone who chooses to be masculine, a woman is anyone who chooses to be feminine, and there’s no one way to be either. An then there’s gender fluid, who mix and match both on a whim. 🤷🏻♂️
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Lionheart
What you mean to say, Robert, is that it's not funny to you. That doesn't mean to say that it's not funny to others. The woke seem to have a huge hang-up with humor nowadays. If you think I'm going to change my humor for the woke, it's not going to happen. The woke men with penis's who now want to put on lipstick, and fall over wearing stilettos, can go running home to mommy and daddy if they don't like it. 🤭
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Joe Stutler
Not sure if you're playing snarcasm or if you're honestly scum. I'm guessing the latter.
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Lionheart
Thank you for your opinion. 🤗
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Joe Stutler
Forget you for your opinion. 😁🥳
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Lionheart
Well, I guess you haven’t. I seem to be renting your head rent free 🤭
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Joe Stutler
Whodis? 🤣🤣🤣
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Robert James Ruhnke
Kitten Butt, the anti woke are just a different kind of woke in the end lol. We get humor just fine, it’s just, the kind of humor that was popular with the so called manly lion wannabes was only ever really popular with your niche group of so called alphas and their cheer leading cis males and some females seeking some kind of validation. An just so you know, lots of men and trans women do just fine in stilettos, considering that heels were invented and used by and for people with penises in the first place. The 18th century was wild times and Rococo was poppin. As always Kitten Butt, your right wing atheism is always predictable yet sort of charming, 😘
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Lionheart
Thank you, Robert. I try to be as charming as I can. I think it's my Englishness, and that warped sense of humor (humour 🇬🇧) 🤗
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Paul Edward Nunis
Doctors don't ask newborn babies what sex they 'identify as' when filling out the birth certificate. Sex is a biological condition identified at birth by external physical characteristics... and there are 3 medically accepted labels. Gender is a social construct.
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Rev. MichaelRS
Also, here's the other problem about making a BID DEAL about this, other than just posting it on "community" forums or whatever that this place is not gay friendly when it comes to wedding and gay people and their supporters might want to consider another venue for whatever;
The problem is, like the Colorado Baker, it's just going to rally the troops. Some will be sincere, reasonable activist for their position...others will be the CRAZIES.
I mean really, is anybody going to be surprised if Antifa or the like fire bombs this place?
Even if something like THAT does not happen, even as the gay community rallies and protests and files a lawsuit the exact same thing is going to be happening on the other side.
I don't mean so much the rallies and the protest, but the money and donations pouring in for the owners and or for a legal defense fund. Because that's exactly what happened with the Colorado baker. People who lived in Europe were "ordering" cakes. "Oh, you don't deliver to Europe. Well just keep the money anyway".
I think it is spinning wheels for nothing and the best thing to do it is to leave their little corner of the world alone and go where and with others share your values.
What would be interesting to see is what would happen if a straight Satanist couple tried to book a wedding there.
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Susan Colmenares
My point exactly in saying that if nobody uses the place it will soon disappear. This is all a ploy to drum up business among those who discriminate against LGBTQ+ community. What’s next? The DAR, local garden clubs? These people are doing this for publicity.
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Susan Marie LaLonde
Hopefully, They will fail miserably. Too bad their Faith doesn't accept the rights of EVERYONE. Do they really think God would not approve of Love?
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James Mounts
The common-sense solution to this, and other, similar, situations, is to separate the legal aspects of marriage from the religious aspects. Let civil authority perform a civil union, and let religious authority perform a marriage--one producing a legal document, the other not.
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Paul Edward Nunis
The whole Universal Life Church ordination process equips individuals to perfom marriages, without needing the permission of 'approved' churches. And they are perfectly legal already, no need to create 'separate but equal' ceremonies.
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Pastor George Day
@Paul Edward Nunis, we perform weddings in the name of ULC. ULC is our 'approved' church.
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Gerardo Salazar
Christian values they say? Baloney I answer. There’s not a single mention of homosexuality in any of the four Gospels and I believe that it would be more Christian not to tell lies and simply place an outside sign saying “We’re bigots and prejudiced against those who do not think like us”.
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Rev Mark D
Most Christian denominations I know of disregard Jesus (they don't actually say and do as Jesus did), except to use his name to get things and conquer people.
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Ealdormon Piparskeggr Robinson
I often wonder when protests will turn into positive action like banding together to open a competing venue, that out performs the other.
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Rev Mark D
Robinson, it is perhaps likely that the venue is not there to make a profit and its operations and costs subsidised by some organization so that it can function as a symbol and not need to compete to survive.
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Ealdormon Piparskeggr Robinson
Fair observation.
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Rev Mark D
It's not a public service, despite what protest organizer says, it's a fee-based business, and it's not illegal. They aren't taking money with strings attached from any government. Can't see what the fuss would be, they're losing out on a business market, going to lose out business and resources from boycotts, so whatever choices they're making, they're paying for their choices. They might insulate themselves by being part of a church, otherwise I can't think of a problem, can you?
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Troels Qvist
I personally could care less if someone is gay or whatever. I am confused about the need for all these letters lgbtqcia+ etc People should be judged by their actions...... Most gay people i know have a higher disposable income than hetrosexual. Dumb move to refuse business, in my opinion. On the other hand, no shoes no shirt no service, it is there business they can run it into the ground if they want..
What I dont understand, is why lgbt people are so eager to frequent establishments that dont appriciate their business or get married into religion that condems them. I think freedom is what is most importent here.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Your attitude is the same that was exhibited during the civil rights movement. “It’s my restaurant and I just don’t serve blacks.” Blacks should just get a clue and go elsewhere? We should have separate but equal facilities? Do you agree that this is an appropriate way for society to operate?
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Troels Qvist
I will argue that if you dont want whatever Person/persons on your property for whatever reason. It's your prerogative. Personally i been kicked out of many establishments bars, restaurants etc
Answer my question relating to why lgbt People are so eager to frequent venues that condem or dislike said persona non Grata
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Joe Stutler
Sometimes it's the only venue available in a given area. Sometimes it's the nicest, or most affordable, or...... It matters not why a particular business, only that the business comply with our Civil Rights laws.
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Daniel Gray
WRONG, your "civil rights laws" do not in any way overturn a US Supreme Court Decision. deal with it
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James Riggle-Johnson
I have no idea about all the letters. I was just getting used to the Q. Lol! I'm gay and I don't get it.
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Susan Colmenares
I don’t think the LBGTQ+ community started this. The venue decided to post this nonsense up front and alienate them.
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taycomama
I'm a calligrapher with a home studio, and s lot of my work is for weddings. Do I have the right to refuse service for Evangelicals?
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Rev Mark D
Is it part of your religious belief? Do you mind foregoing income?
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Start a church on the premise that adherents to your religion must shun willful ignorance. Religious people can now be excluded.
Or just say you are too busy. And wink.
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Dr. Darryl G Dykes
Yes you do.
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Daniel Gray
before anyone gets their underwear in a knot the SCOTUS has already ruled in the Little Sisters of the Poor, that states cannot force a business nor a religion to accept their doctrines. Its their building, their property, their rules. You dont like it go someplace else.They said the same thing about the Seattle baker and the Colorado baker, You cant force anyone to accept you so deal with it.
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Joe Stutler
Rather limited in scope, that Little Shitsters decision. You really should learn something of our civics if you're going to attempt to comment on them.
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Daniel Gray
You should take your own advice as even the SCOTUS is calling you a liar.
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Pastor George Day
@Joe Stutler, again, what need do you have of name-calling them? Can't you just express your opinion civilly?
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Rev. B
So "whites only" is wrong, but "straights only" is ok. I'm never going to be able to remember who I am supposed to discriminate against. There are just too many rules. I suppose I will have to treat everyone equally and not poke my nose in their sexual orientation.
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Rev. B
You're arguing with sarcastic posts now, Daniel. Take a few minutes and unclench, will you?
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Daniel Gray
Nope stating fact, the ones who need to unclench are the ones who refuse to accept the fact that you cant force someone to accept you nor can you force a religion or its followers to accept you no matter what you do. So why start the fussin and fightin when you cant win?
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Rev. B
I am neither "fussin" nor fighting, I was making a sarcastic comment. I was not expressing an opinion one way or the other. I was not saying you were wrong. You, however, cannot stop arguing with a sarcastic quip. Hence my suggestion, "unclench".
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Daniel Gray
And you seemingly cant understand that this is fact and there is nothing you can do to change it, so how about you take your own advice and unclench yourself.
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Rev. B
I disagree.
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Daniel Gray
Disagree all you wish but until you can overturn the SCOTUS decisions and thenget the 1st Amendment removed from the Constitution, this is how its going to be. SO you can either get angry and try and change this and fail, or you can just accept it no matter if it burns your cookies or not.
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Rev. B
I disagree.
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Rev. B
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Daniel Gray
If you run a business and its your belief that gays are against your religion then sorry but it none of your business and you cant force the business to accept them nor can they force the business to accept them. Its very clear when you walk into a business when the sign tells you that they have the right granted by federal law to refuse service to anyone no matter what local or state law wants to claim. And its past the time that you accept this.
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Joe Stutler
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Amy Minckler
I'm curious as to whether or not these businesses have done enough research to know if their suppliers are for or against same sex marriages. I mean if it is against their religion to sell to same sex couples then shouldn't it also be against their religion to buy from companies/people who are for it or who are in fact in a same sex marriage?
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Pastor George Day
@Amy Minckler, no. The issue at stake is about explicit promotion of same-sex marriage, nothing to do with the persons in it. You can still engage with and welcome people without approving of their gay marriage. This is pastoral.
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John P Maher
BOYCOTT, DO NOT ATTEND, WHO GIVES A FIDDLERs F..K !
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tuppennyblue
LGBT spent a lot of time demanding to be allowed to live life their way. Now why not just let others live life THEIR way, too?
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Rev Mark D
Tuppenny, don't you know making sense is illegal?
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Robert James Ruhnke
That means LGBTQ+ discrimination. Nope. I get that LGBTQ+ discrimination is the current popular scapegoat this conservative voting season, but maybe it’s time the religious get the hell over queer people wanting the same rights y’all have, and to stop shoving your religious based nonsense down our throats. Christ said to love this neighbor, not tell them to go die in the cold alone. Choosing to cherry pick your scripture with hateful does not a Christian make anyway.
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Pastor H. F. Beere
But why should the Christians be forced to except something they don’t belief in ok the lgbtq what to be treated equal but don’t force it on the ones that don’t what it we just all need to get along. But lgbtq needs to understand a person that owns a business and serves the public in any fashion with there private company by the constitution has the right to choose not to serve someone because of the right to choose your belief in religion. Lgbtq is a lifestyle choice just as someone being a Christian or a Jew or a Muslim or a atheist so pretty much people of the lgbtq would be a religion so to say
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Robert James Ruhnke
Nope. Unless it’s a church, using your religious beliefs to deny someone service, is a violation of the first amendment. An no, being LGBTQ+ is not part of a religion. Christians and most other fundamentalist Abrahamic religions have pushed their views on other by violence. The rest of us are sick of faith based bigotry. It’s high damn time those group grow the the hell up and leave the rest of alone. Not the other way around. Existing freely is the right of everyone. Not just those who are most violent.
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Pastor H. F. Beere
How is it a violation of the freedom of press amendment you don’t know what your talking about. And I am not going to keep arguing with you. You just need to find Jesus. That’s the problem with the world today they lost sight and blew everything out of the water to have things the way they want and feel ok with the way they are instead of being transformed by the renewing of their mind.
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Robert James Ruhnke
The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution prevents the government from making laws that regulate an establishment of religion, or that prohibit the free exercise of religion, or abridge the freedom of speech, the freedom of the press, the freedom of assembly, or the right to petition the government for redress of grievances. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, as one of the ten amendments that constitute the Bill of Rights. In other words. No the hell I don’t need your closed off idea of Jesus. The problem that’s been plaguing society since the divine right of kings, since before the divine right of kings, has been hypocrites pushing their agendas on others violently. LGBTQ+ folk were defending themselves at Stonewall, and then realized peaceful protest was also how they got recognized. It’s not just the first amendment, it’s all of the bill of rights they’re entitled to as citizens of this country. The bill of rights wasn’t solely for straight white fundamentalist Christian men to cudgel everyone else with. Your lost to shadowed thinking. I cannot help you. You need only open your eyes and get real. Christ was solely a messenger, not king of kings or god made flesh, he spoke as all humans are the children of the gods equally. Love is not a sin, but hate is. If love is god, then it cannot bare or be hatred. Grow up.
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Pastor George Day
@Robert James Ruhnke, when you say: Christ wasn't God or King of kings, you are merely expressing your personal, uniformed and uninvestigated opinion. Blessings :-)
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Robert James Ruhnke
@ Pastor George Day, I’m expressing a fact. Yesh of Galilee was no king, nor did he wish to be King. Its evangelical post Lutheran Protestants like yourself who don’t know a lick about Christ or the history of his life. You only push superstition because it’s easier to push. Save your blessing for your curses ignorance.
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Pastor George Day
@Robert James Ruhnke, we have direct historic evidence through eye-witnesses. I suggest you read 'The Case for Christ' by Lee Strobel. It provides scientific evidence for Christianity. What evidence do you have to back your claim? Your approach is what I call judgement prior to investigation. Blessings, my friend :-)
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Robert James Ruhnke
Lol it has pseudo scientific claims. Nothing more. Your approach is nothing more than mountains of blind faith.
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Pastor George Day
@Robert James Ruhnke, have you read the book? If so, can you give me examples from the books' quotations? Otherwise, yours is indeed judgement prior to investigation.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Because it’s the same old condescending apologist con game that Christians have been playing for the last 2000 years. There’s literally a hundred other books that do the same thing in different words. The reason I don’t need to investigate it is because I’ve studied the history of Christianity, in other words, the reality of Christianity. I think there was a man with the name Yesh who was a political upstart, and he was killed for it. His followers started a cult as a means of narrative control and manipulation. The later churches just kept it going. Yesh’s message was undermined by that cult’s lust for power and violence it spread. To ignore 2000 years worth of tragedies in order to justify a lie that takes from other mythologies in the area is foolish. The cycles of violence and domination that stained Christianity keep getting pushed on humanity. The Abrahamic faiths are all guilty of this. In other words. To answer your question. No. I don’t have quotations. Because I don’t need them. The book, like many of its kind in today’s world is irrelevant. More and more people are leaving their old world faiths. Which is a blessing in its own right. The old world superstitions serve no true purpose anymore.
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Pastor George Day
@Robert James Ruhnke, so you make your own conclusion without investigation. I have to say, you have a really 'scientific' mind! And, to infirm you, I am a real student of Church history. Ne3ver heard of a fellow called 'Yesh.' As for the Church becoming political, you ought to learn about what happened with the Edict of Milan in 313. True Christianity remained faithful in the Celtic tradition... but maybe for you this is possibly too much information :-)
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Robert James Ruhnke
That’s because, Protestant, Yeshua is his Hebrew name. It translates to Joshua. Jesus is the latinized translation. The church was and is always political. It never stopped. The Edict of Milan is about Christianity being officially tolerated as a religion in the Roman Empire. “True Christianity remained faithful in Celtic tradition” has nothing to do with that. Later celts would be converted at sword point, manipulation, or go into hiding. I think your head is so deeply held in the Pontus Pilot’s ass you don’t know what your are talking about.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Edict-of-Milan
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Pastor George Day
@Robert James Ruhnke, c;early your educational knowledge seems to be based on a few Google links. Then I advise you to look more into the establishment of a Christian city called Constantinople and the fact that the Emperor was regarded as head of the Christian church. I have no time for this debate. Enroll in a course of Christian history then we can chat. As for the Hebrew name of Jesus, I am aware of the Greek origin of the name as we know it today - which links to the Empire becoming Christian. Yesh was never his name. His Hebrew name is Yeshua.
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Robert James Ruhnke
I literally just said Yeshua was his Hebrew name. Cause ya know. Yeshua was Jewish, not Christian, at all. I have bachelors in social science, which means I’ve studied religion, anthropology, history (in which I minored), literature, philosophy, just to name a few topics. So far all you’ve demonstrated is arrogance on a topic you’ve superficially studied and use that arrogance for clout. You’ve clearly got more time than you’re letting on. The establishment of Constantinople is just your way of putting me on a wild goose chase that doesn’t really matter. Your drunk on Christian minutia. Get over yourself.
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The Gray Minister
I think this is so wrong
This so called true Christians saying it goes against their religion.
Ok One your business. So if you want to be that way the LGBQT should all join and make sure these businesses are not supported by this or what ever business and not do business with them & make sure all that have a problem with this type of picky business stuff that they should also know so they can stop shopping their also
Two
Jesus showed through his teachings that we should except others for who they are. Jesus showed that many times he walked in the bars didn’t get thrown out he excepted people that weren’t Jewish and showed the Jewish people that they should except them even though they are not Jewish Jesus showed acceptance and by not accepting people that are using their free will that they’re free well that they’re using is hurting the people that are really using their free well. Nazis religious freaks that say they are using their free will for good and I actuality they are using their free will for bad evil purposes if you don’t see it then understand Jesus showed and preached acceptance so if you are not doing what Jesus showed us, you are doing evil by showing that you do not except people for who they are .
So people that don’t except it fine that’s your choice but don’t put your choice in my face because you’ve been brainwashed to believe what you believe and not reading the book for yourself and listening to the word of God from Above not through somebody that might not be preaching exactly the words that the higher power is communicating to them. If it’s not hurting Or hurting them Them stay out of you nazi religious freaks.
It is so sad when I hear a business do this because when I do I put them on blast and as far as I’m concerned I hope with all my heart and all my prayers that their business fails in the name of Jesus Christ for not excepting people for who they are and ramming religion down peoples throats because any religion that has a book is a man-made religion the main religions that we have in this world are all man-made spiritually supposedly inspired by the world would be a lot better place if it was just Word of mouth and not books that have been altered to fit today when in all reality that brings on the curse of the book of revelations . If you take of or add to there is a curse if you do this in the Bible which they have done so many times to make it more politically correct is now the flaw of today. Look around at what’s going on in the world than look at what happens when people add or take away from the Bible there is a curse and it’s all of why today is today what it is today it’s because of the curse they’ve taken out the words that were in the book in the beginning and change them to be more politically correct even though some of those words weren’t translated right.
I The Gray Minister (ULC) I am universal I learn all religions for the sake to be universal. But I do not support anyone religious faith. I accept them all or not at all for I am nondominational meaning I’m not Christian I am not Muslim I’m not Jewish I’m not any of them and even if I was I’d pick witchcraft and Satanism because out of all the religions I’ve dealt with they’re the most excepting religion I’ve ever dealt with. Some religions are OK depending on who the teacher is and how they read the book because they don’t all read the book the same
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Rev. B
I agree wholeheartedly. Thanks for your post. One thing; it is "accept" not "except" in this usage. But your point is excellent!
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The Gray Minister
Yes true. Thanks for pointing that out. Never been good with that words stuff. Never been programmed right so the words just right but I don’t know so my eye doesn’t tell me its wrong. Dang Lol
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Pastor H. F. Beere
Yes Jesus excepted everyone the Bible says come as you are. But Jesus also taught what was expected and accepted. I think everyone pretty much agrees adulterated acts is not right. That it is cheating. That is in the 10 commandments. It’s also writing in the Bible which by the why is Gods inspired word breathed from God, that… “We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine” 1 Timothy 1:9-10 NIV “A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.” Deuteronomy 22:5 NIV. Do I need to go on with scriptures of Gods words saying it’s not right. Yes Jesus preached to all and taught and he excepted people for who they are. Are his preaching and teaching would convince people to turn from there wicked ways. And it’s still the same. Yesterday today and forever is words will not change. Now with that said I have friends that are part of the lgbtq+ community I except them as they are they are my friends regardless because that is Christ like. But they also know my stand and beliefs on this issue. They expect me for who I am and I for who they are but they understand that I will not attend any of there weddings nor will I preform any of there weddings. I don’t push my Christianity on them and I except them and all lgbtq people to not push there beliefs on me. We are all human and entitled to our own beliefs. And if we run a private business as this venue. And yes I said private because they are not a public entity it’s owned by a private person. They should have the right to under there religious beliefs not to rent there venue to someone that violates there beliefs, but in the same sense if they are that strong on there beliefs maybe they choose the wrong business to own as well because Jesus did except everyone as they where and a true Christian running that type of business should still except them as Christ Jesus would and has. What one does in there personal life is not for us to judge as Christians and that is in the Bible as well. “There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?” James 4:12 NIV
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Lionheart
Your God is real then, Herbert? How did you determine that one is real, and not any of all the others that people believe in?
🦁❤️
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Joy
Pretty sure Jesus in the Bible never turned anybody away because of their perceived sin. Pretty sure Jesus in the Bible said something like “do not judge lest you be judged.” So many Christians today are a sad lot of hate and bigotry. Guess they really don’t love themselves too much or else they’d be loving their neighbor. But what do I know.
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Dr. Darryl G Dykes
Christianity is about saving souls of sinners not judgement of us. As a Christian I know I am a sinner receiving forgiveness for my transgressions against the word of God. I cannot be perfect I can try to live a Christian life of believing with faith.
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flugo
'jo? joy?': Typically, you pick and choose for your lop-sided viewpoint on Jesus' position.
Only idiots don't use discernment (judging) to make decisions. Jesus rebuked, name- called (pigs, dogs), told some that the Devil was their father. He even told us to judge, rebuke.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Where at Not so Fuego? You made the claim, now post the verse. Or keep sucking on your feet, because we all know you enjoy the taste of foot in mouth. Hell isn’t real. An Samael’s fall didn’t last forever. The venom of god’s duty is to punish the wicked in the name of God. Judgement was God’s alone, vengeance was his alone. Yesh did not die so that the Old Testament be fulfilled, making him (Yesh) a hypocrite in the name of God. Yesh simply reminded humanity to love one another, not hate the sin, God doesn’t even do that. God may punish, but it is not out of hatred, but a fulfillment of law. Law that men often project as their own will alone. That being another no-no. You’re doing nothing that following the hollowed projection of men with false tongues. Woe unto you, Not-So-Fuego, woe unto.
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Kelly Manning
Hallelujah. The only kind of wedding that I would be a part of. Marriage is between a man and a woman. Keep pushing the homosexuality issue. God will judge you. I will abide by God's word. When the NWO comes fully into play, you won't like their rules either. I wonder if you'll dismiss their rules like you have God's. You'll be praying for God then.
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Simon E Blatta
There is no god to judge me or anyone. I am not worried about being punished by a vengeful, and seemingly petty, god. There is just this life. I will, myself, reflect on what I have done with mine. I want to be able to say that I have had a happy life, and I have added to the happiness of others. I don't think I could have the prior without the latter. I believe I have come to that assessment via rational study. I hope you are happy. For those people who feel that it is right to separate out some others, I wonder if this kind of thinking actually brings happiness to anyone, including themselves.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Kelly Manning please tell us what the definition of a man and a women is? There are people who have a penis and breasts. And others who have a vagina and penis. And what do you call someone who has neither? Thank you.
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Joe Stutler
Are you admitting you don't really understand the difference between "sex" and "gender", nor that neither of those are binary conditions? Because that's what your comments keep telling us.....
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Pastor George Day
@Joe Stutler, there's no difference between sex and gender as far as science is concerned. This way of thinking is a strategy of the LGBT political agenda. There are some who have gender issues, but they are still males or females. And exception is for intersex people, but even they will find their own primary gender of identification. Bottom line3: keep it simple!
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Joe Stutler
So you're admitting you don't know squat about Science...got it. Maybe get your congenital coproencephaly treated....
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Pastor George Day
@Joe Stutler, actually, I am an accredited student of Theology of the Body. Theology is a science. I do a lot of dissertations on sex and gender. Where do you back your claim? From LGBT political agenda? Even biology discredits them. Have you watched 'What is a Woman?'?
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Dr. Darryl G Dykes
Douglas Robert Spindler read this Not just about sex: throughout our bodies, thousands of genes act differently in men and women - https://theconversation.com/not-just-about-sex-throughout-our-bodies-thousands-of-genes-act-differently-in-men-and-women-86613?
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Pastor George Day
@Douglas Robert Spindler, that is called intersex. Like transgenderism (which is to do with the mind), intersex (to do with physicality) is a medical condition. So in a sense there are men and women, for those that are lucky enough... Others, of no fault of their own, have gender issues. I happen to be transgender, for example, but still view myself as a biological man. And I remain conservative in thinking as my right of opinion.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Pastor George Day Can you give me a definition of what characteristics make a person a man or a women? I have test to meet anyone who can give me a definition. Being transgender you do know there are women who have balls and a penis. And there are men who have large breasts. And then there are those people who don't really have developed overlies or balls. It's God's fault, not the person's fault they are like this. And if our bodies can be part male/part female doesn't it makes sense our brains and the way we think could be the same as well? So while our bodies may appear to be male our brains might be female or the other way around. There are two excellent TED talks given by beautiful women who have breasts, a vagina, balls and a penis. Are they male, female, both or neither?
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Pastor George Day All humans begin life as females. Based on your name, I will assume you consider yourself an intersex male?
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Joe Stutler
Oh you poor thing! You must have been skipping your meds of late; you're spewing nonsense!
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Amy Varela
Provide some actual, substantial evidence for your god. You seem to be quite certain that this being exists, based on the claims in your comment. Where is the evidence that will prove this existence to every living person on earth? If you have no evidence, you should not make those claims.
Also, are you even capable of being in a relationship that would not be All About You? Your comment implies that you are selfish, hoarding the benefits of a legal marriage all to yourself simply because you're only interested in someone whom you can impregnate (if you have a penis) or who can impregnate you (if you have a vagina). Selfish people don't care about anyone but themselves, so you would be incapable to being in any relationship.
In any case, your views on this subject are part of what is wrong with humanity. Religion poisons everything.
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Richard David Atwood
It's called FREEDOM. Freedom to chose to do what you feel is right. I don't think anyone NEEDS a reason other than it's my freedom of choice. I choose to, or not to. My choice.When you walk into a store and see the sign saying, "NO SHOES, NO SHIRT, NO SERVICE." it means that the owner of the store has a set policy and it is their right to do so. In your home you set the rules. Same for your business. It's yours, you can do or not do whatever you want.The over oppressive government has no business in your business. All the whinny little crybaby's need to learn some manners and grow up. MY life, anyone's life is not yours to control. The only life you have control over is YOURS. Keep your nose out of everyone else's.
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Simon E Blatta
But I still ask: why does what you deem to be freedom require, encourage, or at least allow you to restrict the behavior of others? I think my own freedom will be more secure if we promote broad and deep freedom. My nose is not in anyone's business. I don't care what others do, unless it does some level of damage to others. Excluding certain other people seems more like oppression and control than encouraging inclusivity. Your 'No Shirt...' example is weak: There are rational reasons for that sign-liability, health, etc. I disagree that intolerance is rational. Religion is inherently irrational. I believe my manners to be acceptable. I believe I am treating readers of my posts respectably. I am asking questions out of a sincere interest in understanding intolerance.
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Dr. Darryl G Dykes
You have no concept of freedom. Freedom is not one sided
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Nathaniel Robert Hunt
And Christians need to keep their noses out of my life and church and stop whining that we welcome gays and preform same sex weddings, our right
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Dr. Darryl G Dykes
As the right of other religion or non religious venue. Your church can do as it wants no one said you could not.
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Rev. B
Personally, I believe that in a free country anyone should be able to do whatever they want as long as it does not harm a person or animal. Unfortunately, some people like exclusivity; they will actually fight for the ability to restrict others from doing something they can do. The hypocrisy is more than a little alarming.
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Simon E Blatta
I can accept the right of this people to exclude some people, I just don't understand why so many of us are open and accepting, while others feel it is necessary to shun some people. How much intolerance is caused by religion; and how much is more of a co-factor in why people are drawn to religion? Why are there many people who belong to churches or claim to be Christian, yet they don't seem to agree that excluding people is acceptable? Why are people so sure that their interpretation of their faith, or the interpretation given them, is 'truth'?
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Rev Mark D
I don't know, turn the questions around to you, when you have answers for them then you can ask me. Why can't you wear white after Labor Day?
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Amy Varela
Why are people so sure that a god exists, and that it happens to be the one they believe in? Why are these people so comfortable believing in something for which there is absolutely no good evidence?
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Amy Varela
Many of us are open and accepting because we are decent human beings who understand that it is unkind/nasty/evil to treat others poorly or with less regard than we treat our own. Then there are those who think they are better for whatever reason and feel justified in treating others poorly.
In cases like this, I - as a non-theistic Druid - am more Christ-like than many christians who do not understand the parable of the Good Samaritan. They don't understand their own freaking book! Well, they don't understand the 'teachings of Jesus'. They're right in line with the immoral, insecure, genocidal, misogynistic, allegedly homophobic, racist character in the Old Testament known as God.
Also, do we know for sure that the character Jesus was not gay? There's no evidence that he was straight.
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Joe Stutler
Simple question....is it a church or a business? Church can do whatever it wants. Business must abide by applicable laws and regulations.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
The Catholic church most certainly a business which is selling religion. Vatican Bank has $8 billion in assets. Sistine Chapel is for rent and it's not free. The church will make you a saint for a fee. Vatican City has huge tourism business.
Many other religions are really businesses as well Look at how much tele-preachers bring in every year in profits.
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Joe Stutler
Sure. I'm talking about how they're registered with taxing authorities.
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Rev. B
Where is this registry? When I owned a business, I did not register it with the IRS, the taxing authority. Could you point me in the direction of this registry so I can figure out why I didn't have to use it.
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Joe Stutler
Then you don't live in the USA...or you ran an illegal business.
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Rev. B
Now that I think of it, what you are talking about is probably something my lawyer did for me without my knowledge of what that step was called.
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Pastor George Day
@Joe Stutler, the Vatican has its own laws and rules. It is the only country, together with my country (the Principality of Sealand), that has no tax system.
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Pastor George Day
@Douglas Robert Spindler, the Vatican is actually a country for all purposes.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Pastor George Day Umm please do a bit more research on this. Yes the Vatican is a country. But it is also a business. In fact it's a multi-billion dollar a year business and makes a profit. As I'm sure you are aware the Vatican owns and buys and sells real estate, sells merchandise, gets sued and hires teams of lawyers and get involved in local politics around the world.
Google it... You will have no problem verifying my statement with many credible sources.
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Pastor George Day
@Douglas Robert Spindler, I'm a former Catholic scholar, so I know more than you think. What I was referring to is that the Vatican, as a country, has its own laws. When you say 'business,' you might refer to IOR, which is the Vatican bank. I will agree with you that there are a lot of co0ntroversies on them, and a lot of dark stories - like the disappearance of Emanuela Orlkandi, several mysterious 'suicides' and even the sudden death of a pope after only one month from his election. However, they are a small country with big sovereignty, and no one can interfere with that, or it would be an invasion of sovereignty. What I mean is that neither the Italian government nor any other country, let alone the UN, can do a damn about it. I also am a national of a small principality, officially unrecognized by most countries but fully legal as of the Montevideo Convention. Both my country and the Vatican are tax-free. Both in my country and in the Vatican the Head of State is also the owner of businesses and estates within the national territory.
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Rev Mark D
Joe: It's both, it's a church business. Or a religious business. Or in business for the purpose of stirring up attention for debate or inspiration to others, to keep the issue in the public forefront. My nephew makes a very good living developing music online for Christian church music organizations, churches, music directors, choirs, etc. Pretty much only caters to paying Christian churches, it's a church business.
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Joe Stutler
Well, to the taxing authorities they're either a church OR a business. Take, for example, a "Christian" book store....not a church, but a store, so must comply with business regulations. Same with your nephew...doing work for a church doesn't make one a church.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry but wrong again as usual. On June 4, 2018, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled 7-2 that the Colorado Civil Rights Commission had violated Phillips' rights under the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, 584 U.S. ___ (2018) US Supreme Court
And the same thing was said in the Little Sisters of the poor decision https://www.becketlaw.org/case/commonwealth-pennsylvania-v-trump/
And again the Court agrees with me and not you https://www.metroweekly.com/2022/07/gay-teacher-fired-by-catholic-school-loses-lawsuit/
And the EEOC says you are wrong as well https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/section-12-religious-discrimination
And even NBC says you are wrong https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-politics-and-policy/supreme-courts-religious-school-ruling-signals-dangerous-road-lgbtq-ri-rcna34849
All of these are businesses and ALL of them have been given the right to operate under their set of rules, even if it violates state laws. You really should know what you are talking about BEFORE you start posting otherwise you will continue to look foolish as you are posting your own OPINIONS and not FACTUAL LAW.
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Rev. B
"All of these are businesses and ALL of them have been given the right to operate under their set of rules, even if it violates state laws"
At least you admit it violates state law.
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Daniel Gray
And since when does state law overturn or come before federal? It does not and never has so your point is absolutely nonsense. Nice try though
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Rev. B
It wasn't a "point", it was just a fact. If I were to make a point it would be that everyone should try to love and respect each other, and I find it ironic that it is the religious types that can't follow the one thing I wish they would actually take seriously from their bronze-age storybook. Look at all of Daniel's posts and tell me if you think he really loves and respects everyone here.
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Daniel Gray
No it wasnt a fact, again the Colorado Cake Maker-Little Sisters of the poor and a host of other US Supreme Court decisions all say the same thing. NO law can be made to force someone into violating their religious beliefs. Or did you forget the 1st Amendment which clearly say you cant do what you are claiming. And the ONLY thing and reason you are getting upset is that you know I am correct and I also am following the law. Something you seemingly want others to ignore
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Rev. B
"At least you admit it violates state law"
That is my entire statement, and yes, that IS a fact. You did post that. That makes it a FACT. You're arguing the wrong point again, Daniel. I only said one thing, and later claimed it was a fact. Seems like you believe I was arguing about the original post... I have no idea why.
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Daniel Gray
And my point, which you cant refute; is that the 1st Amendment says you cant make a law that violates a religion (teachings) and the same thing is said in numerous different SCOTUS decisions. As such ANY state law or what you calim is a state law, that violates the 1st Amendment or the SCOTUS rulings is illegal and unable to be enforced no matter who does it and no matter what they think. Thats the way it has been for over 240 years so if you dont agree to this, then may I suggest that you build a time machine and go back to the founding fathers and put it in the constitution the way you want it to be done. Until then federal law and US SCOTUS decisions ALWAYS will supersede any state and local law. Thats the way the law is written.
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Rev. B
I can refute that, and I can prove they don't do that. Jewish teaching says that if a woman's life is in danger, they are supposed to get an abortion. So by banning abortions they are violating the teachings of the Torah.
The first amendment says that there is to be a separation of church and state, which is the exact opposite of what you are saying.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
See that part about prohibiting the free exercise? That's where SCOTUS screwed the Jewish people.
People take old books too seriously. I mean, chillax it's fiction. If you don't believe me, prove it. :)
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Daniel Gray
sorry but you are wrong yet again, there is NO separation of church and state in the 1st Amendment. Want proof? ok the Constitution was enacted as law of the land in 1787. the very first mention of this separation of church and state myth was in 1802 a good 15 years AFTER the Constitution became law of the land. and then it was not mentioned again until the 20th century. Now read the constitution as the ONLY way to add to or remove from the Constitution is a constitutional amendment. Now I hereby challenge you to show exactly when and where this mythical amendment was passed out of Congress and sent to the states for ratification. I wont hold my breath waiting. Now as for your claim that jewish faith supports abortion, sorry wrong again https://forward.com/news/501397/what-does-jewish-law-say-about-abortion/ And no sorry again. You claim the old books are fiction, I disagree, so its now up for you to prove your claim. I have just destroyed all your points in less the 10 minutes. Try again
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Rev. B
"You claim the old books are fiction, I disagree"
THAT'S your "proof"? In that case instead of all the typing I was going to do, I will simply say "I disagree". In fact, I think that will be the answer to most of your posts. I'm glad that is an acceptable answer to you.
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Daniel Gray
No I am showing that what you said is YOUR OPINION and nothing more.
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Rev. B
Comment removed by user.
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Pastor George Day
@Daniel Gray, I have read the full EEOC document: very interesting and clear indeed. Thank you for sharing the link.
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Daniel Gray
You are welcome and the EEOC CANNOT make someone violate their religious beliefs no matter what they or the state says. The SCOTUS and the 1st Amendment is very clear on that subject and only people who are butt hurt because the SCOTUS didnt rule the way they wanted them to instead of the way the Constitution says they must, are the ones doing the complaining
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Larry Mager
Brother RS, FWIW, the Metropolitan Community Church's "Official" P.O.V. is that they are a Christian Church with a Gay outreach. Imho, and this isn't a criticism of the church is that the M.C.C> is spliting hairs with Occam's Razor...LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Peace!
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Larry Mager
Personally, if they want to lose money that same sex marriages can bring in, that is THEIR loss! Will the couple refuse to rent to Trans couple if BOTH partners are Trans??????? I know of several couples who are Trans, both F to M and M to F. By any one's standards, the couple is M AND F.!!!!
Like I said in the beginning of this post: The venue's owners want to lose money....well, it's their loss!
May Our Mother bless You all!
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Dr. Darryl G Dykes
Why should transgender even be a issue?Who said you have to disclose that, when renting to someone? The fair housing law forbids discrimination of any type to renters and home buyers. So why is this even in the discussion?
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Susan Colmenares
It’s in the discussion because it was specifically mentioned in the sermon.
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Rev. MichaelRS
People have to get married at THAT particular venue because there are no other mainstream faiths, venues or officiants that will do it?
Like, oh I don't know, the Methodist Church, the Episcopal church, Reform Jewish synagogues or...wait for it... a large number of ULC ministers and so on and so forth?
Christ! (pun intended) there's even a whole church founded just based on the LBGTQ community; the Metropolitan Community Church.
But this is the exact issue so many people with more conservative faiths were worried about as same sex marriage became more and more legal over the last few years; that participating in same-sex marriages would be forced upon their church or venue like this.
And the assurance was always the same; "No no no, you have your faith, you have your right to it, no one is going to force you to violate that." But guess what.
So instead of forcing these people to violate their faith values when it comes to the sacrament of marriage (and that is all we are talking about here) how about voting with your feet and your dollars and going to one of the many many many MANY other places that WILL accommodate members of one's comunnity?
And yes, they should refund the money of those canceling over this issue.
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Susan Colmenares
This post does not refer to the actual ceremony. The place is a venue for celebrations.
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Rev. MichaelRS
I'm not sure how you figure that, since basically the whole post talks about same-sex weddings...with a dash of transgender thrown in.
I think most people understand if you're talking about a wedding you're talking about a/the ceremony as well.
As far as OTHER "celebrations"(birthday parties, anniversary parties, engagement parties Etc) involving gay people go, if the article said anything about something like THOSE, somebody's going to have to tell me where it is, because I sure missed it.
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Susan Colmenares
Paragraph just above the photo of folding chairs. You did indeed miss it.
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Paul Edward Nunis
2nd word in the article... 'businesses'. 3rd sentence in the article... 'wedding vendor'. They typically provide a space, folding chairs and tables, etc.
Wedding halls, photographers, florists bridal gown and tuxedo providers, wedding singers, DJs and caterers et al. are not marriage officiants, and a vendors license doesn't authorize the merchant to solemnize or sign the wedding license... as any ULC ordained minister would already know.
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Rev. MichaelRS
Doesn't that depend on the nature of the business or the type of "celebration" as to whether or not they should be forced to participate.
Let me tell you my position if I was those owners, least anyone misunderstand where I'm coming from. I WOULD NOT CARE.
As long as your money is green and/or your check does not bounce, have at it.
I'm just not in to forcing people to participate in certain celebrations, no matter what part they have in those celebrations, if it is truly against their religious beliefs.
And I don't think there's anybody, even among conservative Christians that say they're not going to serve gay people no way no how just because those people are gay. The conflict comes when you want them to participate in a celebration of what they consider sin.
It's like that famous case of the baker in Colorado who refused to bake a wedding cake for the gay couple. He once said his position was if you are gay and you need a birthday cake come on in and he'll make you the best birthday cake ever. A gay person celebrating their birthday is not considered sin in his faith. But a cake celebrating a same-sex wedding is a different matter.
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Pastor George Day
@Rev. MichaelRS, you see... I fully understand where the baker is coming from and I applaud his stance. But, even though I am conservative, I would still not refuse a gay/lesbian couple a same-sex wedding. I would make it clear, though, that I would not view it as a marriage, but a blessing or civil union which would give them access to legal protection. I understand that baking a cake is different. It would be viewed as an artistic expression of their celebration.
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Lionheart
“Strait is the gate, and narrow is the way” 🤭
Always thought that was a weird way to spell “straight” in that old book 🤪
🦁❤️
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taycomama
"Strait" spelled this way means "tight" or "narrow," as in straitjacket or Straits of Gibralter.
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Paul Edward Nunis
English... it's a beautiful thing. 🙂
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Charles Jude Platt
How the hell did we come to this point? People loving and caring for one another is wrong? I tell you friends Jesus left town, sadly it might be for good.
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Dr. Darryl G Dykes
People need to respect one another. If a lbq whatever, group says no heterosexuals is that wrong No it is not.
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Michael Hinkle
Same sex marriage is wrong! Businesses has the right to refuse service to those of same sex martiage.
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Joe Stutler
So don't get same sex married. See, your problem is solved! You're welcome 😉
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Robert James Ruhnke
It sure isn’t. Considering all biblical marriage is, is a business contract between two men, and the woman is reduced to nothing more than properly. A church might have the right, but a business doesn’t have the right to refuse based on orientation. Though I figure it won’t take long for a boycott to tank that business anyway. 🤷🏻♂️
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Susan Colmenares
Except for those unions between men and several women, right??
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Robert James Ruhnke
I have nothing against plural marriage so long as everyone involved is a consenting adult. I’m for more than just a man and several women, if a woman has several husbands, or if it’s a mix of people. 🤷🏻♂️ an if they all divorce, no big deal. The only ones who’ve divorce into a big stink are Christians whereas the indigenous here in the states had the right of it. Set their stuff outside the house and it’s done. 🤷🏻♂️
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Pastor George Day
@Robert James Ruhnke, you may be in favor of polyamory and no-fault divorce until you realize the damage it does to children's mental health.
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Rev. B
Whenever I hear about plural marriages, I try to imagine what the tax laws would look like and how they could be abused.
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Paul Edward Nunis
'Business' since long before the churches muscled in. The very word 'wedding' comes from the same root as 'wager'... securing a financial security pledge.
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Brien
What right do you have to judge others? What yardstick makes you God? You have a right to your opinion, but that's all it is.
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Rev Mark D
Brien, please don't confuse people with facts.
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Pastor George Day
@Brien, actually, everyone in a democracy has a right to an opinion and even to express it, and our Universal Life Church here reflects just that in its diversity. We do not have a right to enforce that opinion without a majority vote. But still, we can express grievances in free speech.
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Brien
No Pastor, I am sorry to disagree with you, but so many stupid laws have been created because of small minded people that spew hatred with no other reason than to hate. Those are toxic people that drag the rest of society down. As far as a business is concerned, they have the right to refuse service, just as the consumer has the right to spend money elsewhere. No more creating hate for 15 minutes of fame. Refusing service will eventually lead to the business closing.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Michael Hinkle Why is same sex married wrong? Why do you think it's wrong for people being in a loving relationship?
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Rev. B
Because some characters in his 6000-year-old work of fiction written by people that didn't know that dreams are not real said so.
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James Riggle-Johnson
I have to ask... why is it wrong?
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Nathaniel Robert Hunt
@Michael Hinkle My religion does not view same sex marriage as wrong, in fact it has a long history in my faith , it's the right of my church to welcome gays and preform same sex weddings
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Maximillian Martin
Why is it wrong? Because your religion claims it or because you're just mad that someone else might be marrying the man you're interested in? Those would be the only reasons you could have. And YOUR god doesn't speak for everyone!!
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Nicholas J Page
I totally agree don't poke your nose in.
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Nathaniel Robert Hunt
likewise Christians need to keep their noses out of my church, which welcomes gays
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Susan Colmenares
Simple solution! Nobody uses this venue for anything and this place will soon be out of business. The article states that this is a new business. Making an announcement of this kind is an obvious bid for notoriety. This is more a publicity stunt than a statement of religious beliefs.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
I think you correct. Christians always try and get all the publicity they can for "their" cause. It's not working as less people, especially the young people are turning away in record numbers from Christianity.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
NOBODY uses the venue? That would work but there’s going to be a pool of the willfully ignorant that will happily come. I find it encouraging that at least SOME of the ‘straight’ couples want to pull out of their contracts. That’s progress.
Myself, the cake baking uproar resulted in a change in attitude for me. I have zero tolerance for xtians now. Go ahead, mention your Bronze Age beliefs and I’m going to tell you that you’re delusional. If you apply for a job and make the mistake of talking about your xtian beliefs then I’m going with a ‘more qualified’ candidate. If you already work for me when you decide to get vocal then you better be annirreplaceablevemployer or you just joined the line for the ‘Please document every single mistake I make in preparation to be fired’ club. Turn about is fair play.
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Susan Colmenares
I don’t blame you for feeling this way and I think you are correct. Jesus never turned anyone away except “money changers” at the temple. So where do these “Christians” get their nonsense from?
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Rev. B
Susan, they get their nonsense from their own personal beliefs, which they then find a passage in their work of bronze age fiction and twist to try and make their argument sound less insane than it is... to irrational people anyway.
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Dr. Darryl G Dykes
It is simple if you don't like the business plan then simply do not use the Business. You will not be missed. Do you think a Catholic Church will marry just anyone? No they will not. Want to protest go to a Catholic Church and protest see how fast the police will ask for your permit, if you can get one you will have to remain 100 feet away from the church and it's parking area. But then again you would not dare go up against the Catholic Church. It is simple that is a business they have the right to do business as they please. Can go to General Motors or FORD and protest because you don't like their business plan No you will be spending time with the jail keeper. Again it's simple deal with it start your own business and cater to only the people who are protesting this company.
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Bethany Jo McGill-Rizer
This is not a church but a venue. Is it ok if they refuse service to people of color as well?
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Joshua Vanhorn
A church isn't a business that is open to the public.
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Dan Anderson
I am saddened that, in 2022, American humans still have a problem with anyone who may be "slightly different" in beliefs or biology. As we already know, fear is created from ignorance.
For those who are Christian and claim Christianity is AGAINST LGBTQ groups, please show me where Jesus mentioned a single word about homosexuality. (Hint: He didn't.)
As an adendum, please know that what so many people claim to be a condemnation against homosexuals is NOT, in reality, having ANYTHING to do with such a topic. Learn the culture and historicity of the Bible, PLEASE. Don't just take it as fact 'because a preacher said it so."
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Dr. Darryl G Dykes
And the same to you Sir.
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Edwin Merle Waltz
There business they have the right to do what they want
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James Riggle-Johnson
And what about when they say "Whites Only"? Will it still be their business, their right?
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Rev Mark D
Why, does it say whites only? Plenty of other businesses, networks, other private businesses are "All Black", all Latin, Spanish language only, other languages only, etc. A community catering to its own needs. What's your objection really that you wouldn't apply to yourself as well?
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Susan Colmenares
Not true! Black only, Latino only or any other “only” is just as discriminatory as “white only.” It’s all wrong. We really are all children of the same universe.
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Pastor George Day
@Susan Colmenares, it depends on the nature of the business.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Languages are one thing, but race, nationality, gender, and religous views are another. Plus, I've never seen a black only business. If you've felt your cannot go into a black owned business that is on you.
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Rev Mark D
Ever see the TV network "All Black"? A subsidiary of WETV.
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Paul Edward Nunis
Hate to break it to you, but the title 'All Black' doesn't mean that no one else can watch it on their TV.
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Rev Mark D
It's the same racist appeal. Please don't play rhetorical debating games. As long as anyone harbors favoritism of any kind, be it marketing even, it's all of the same cloth.
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Joe Stutler
What businesses are "Black only" or "Hispanic only" in the USA? Cite credible sources, take all the time you need.
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Rev, Rene L.
"Rev" Mark D??? I wonder how you came to be a Christian??? I am flummoxed by your comment as it shows a complete lack of love for your fellow human beings. The venue says they love love, why then are they behaving in such a mish-mash behavior of partial discrimination? They will not marry some, but all are welcome? I seriously doubt that, I think back to Jews in Spain who only had to convert to be safe, or leave right away. We as humanity have not learned much, have we???
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Rev Mark D
Who said I was a Christian? See how flawed your thinking is, no, I suppose you don't. All anything means there is a pre-dispostion to discriminate based on anything one can justify to oneself. Work on your thinking, there is something wrong there. And when you speak about "we," it would be more accurate to speak for yourself. Actually my wife is a different race and so are my siblings. Not that you would ever figure something like that out, because YOU are the narrow minded one, projecting outward. And then you have the gall to accuse and to sour it with sarcasm...you are worse than any Christian I've known...which is why so many of the LBTQ community flee from you. "Reverend" Rene.
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Pastor George Day
@Rev Mark D, I also thought you were a Christian. So what are you, if I may ask?
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Rev Mark D
Oh, and by the way, my family was one of those Jews from Spain. Rene, I don't know why you are even here, clearly you have love only for yourself, and anyone else you can target like you are some kind of fool who only loves those she decides she likes. You do not belong on these pages for the actual hate you harbor. You hide behind your anonymity and one-sided presence this kind of venue affords. That's my observation.
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Dr. Darryl G Dykes
Private Clubs do it all the time. The clubs only allow select members of their choosing to join. Country Clubs are a perfect example. The NAACP has the right to restrict who may be at their group. The sign might not read White's only or African Americans only or Muslim only. Decent people having respect for other group of people do not protest to be part of a groups events.
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Michael Paul Mykita
Ah, PRIVATE clubs. Your point has strayed pretty far from public venues. You can't tell someone they can't shop in your store if they're Jewish, they can't sit at your lunch counter if they're black. If you are a PUBLIC venue you are doing business with the public. I became a ULC minister because of it's message of inclusion. The door is open to everyone.
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Joe Stutler
Wrong. You should probably brush up on our Rule of Law or go back to Trumpistan.
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Daniel Gray
sorry you need to read what the SCOTUS has already ruled on this or shut up about stuff you clearly know nothing about
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Joe Stutler
Wrong again, derp. In the USA, businesses must comply with business laws & regulations. That SCOTUS occasionally decides a particular rule isn't appropriate does nothing to change the overall concept of our Rule of Law. Now STFU, FOAD, go be with Jesus, slither back to your CAFO lagoon, and kiss my grits. :-)
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Daniel Gray
Correct again and what really fries your wires is that you cant prove me wrong. And I guess you have not read the Cakemaker decision or the little sisters of the poor decision from the US Supreme Court that clearly proves you have no idea what you are talking about. But then again you can see who loses the point when they have to start calling names. You do have a new invention called a mirror, right?
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Joe Stutler
Wrong still. My "wires" are fine. You're still spewin' eff-wïttëry. You tried, though...you can go back and tell your Kleagle that.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry but federal law and the SCOTUS are calling you a liar. So try and show us where you think you have the authority to claim they are wrong.
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Dan Anderson
If they offer said service to others, no, they can NOT discriminate against them.
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Daniel Gray
Umm yes they can SCOTUS has already ruled as much
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Rev Mark D
It's a private business. What part of "service" allows you to dictate?
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The increasing arrogant and belligerent ignorance of people is worthy of remark. The increasingly aggressive attitudes of the, "do as you will" mob does not seem to apply to anyone who disagrees with a person who has a different view. If a person does not approve of my beliefs or actions, I do not care. If anyone tries to force me to comply with a different set of beliefs or actions, it is tyranny in action. If a Muslim refuses service to a Christian or Jew, I do not care. If a person refuses to serve a segment of the population for any reason, I do not care. You can love people without agreeing with their beliefs. I do not support belligerent opposition directed toward anyone. People who belligerently approach those who disagree with them do more harm to their cause than good. The Self-righteous, judgmental controllers sabotage their own belief system. Hypocrisy in action is evident everywhere. If I disagree with you as a matter of principle I will address you directly, not in public media. Mob aggression always ends badly.