A 54-year-old Minnesota school bus school bus driver was yanked from his route after it was discovered that he regularly led students in prayer during the two-hour drive. The driver, George Nathaniel confessed to praying on the job, but denied he forced any students to pray with him. Those who participated did so willingly, he said.
However, Nathaniel went on to admit that his ultimate goal is to convert children to Christianity. He believes that "children need more prayer in their lives" - even in public school, where it's constitutionally prohibited.
This wasn't his first offense, either. Nathaniel apparently has a bad habit of proselytizing to youngsters - he was fired from a previous bus driving job four years ago for doing the exact same thing. "You've got the freedom to exercise your religious beliefs," Nathaniel said after learning of the suspension. "That's where the Constitution comes in."
Apparently he never read the part about separation of church and state.
Complaints Come to Light
After the allegations went public, the school bus company was quick to point out that religious expression wasn't at issue here. Apparently, their employees are given ample time for personal prayer - just not around students. They acknowledge it was unacceptable for Nathaniel to "influence minors to the point where he was forcing them to pray." Moreover, they warn this particular driver is stuck in his ways. "He's not going to change. His main focus is to influence even one person in following what he worships," said a company representative.
Nathaniel was shocked to learn that any parent would take issue with his prayer regimen, declaring he'd been very open about his intentions from the start. One father, Art Loghinov, insisted that while he had no problem with his two children "knowing more about Jesus," he is uncomfortable with kids being "pushed" toward a particular religion.
The Prayer Predicament
The Constitution mandates that schools cannot give preference to any one religion over another. However, we're living in a fantasy land if we think religion and education will never intersect. This principle of separating church and state makes sense in theory, but proves quite difficult to carry out in practice. The sheer number of religious students and teachers (and apparently, bus drivers) makes eliminating infractions nearly impossible.
For example, last year a high school in East Texas decided to hang up flag displaying a Christian cross. It wasn't removed until the Freedom From Religion Foundationgot involved, demanding it be removed because it served as a clear endorsement of Christianity. Students responded by defiantly flying their own personal Christian flags on school grounds in protest.
In another case, coaches from the East Coweta High School football team in Georgia werebarred from praying with students while in their official capacities, regardless of whether or not students were okay with it.
What's the Solution?
Clearly bus drivers should not be doubling as youth outreach officers for the church, looking to convert students during school hours. But some think the Constitution overreaches when dealing with religion. If every student on the bus is okay with saying prayers, then should government officials be able to stop them?
What if the students themselves decided to organize a prayer group on the bus? Is it the bus driver's job to put an end to this activity to avoid the possibility of offending non-religious students? Proponents of prayer in school argue that America is a Christian nation at heart, and any attempt to curtail expressions of faith is an attack on freedom of religion.
But opponents point out that like it or not, the Constitution is crystal clear on this issue. If even one student on the bus is uncomfortable, allowing prayer to go on would be a gross violation of their civil rights. There's a reason we call it "tyranny of the majority."
147 comments
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Maurice Slaunwhite
The Bible says go to all the world and preach the Gospel. That even means Prayer. God Bless the bus driver for bringing God in the Situation especially driving a bus full of school children. The bus driver was doing God's will and those who don't are doomed for hell and that is not judging it is Biblical. Take that in mind and hire that bus driver Man of God.
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John Owens
Most of you think it is perfectly acceptable to brainwash a kid to be a pagan or a communist or LGBTQ, but find it morally reprehensible to teach Christianity to them. I think the driver was out of line, but I think most of you are insane--not that I'm a qualified psychologist, mind you, but you don't need a PHD in Astronomy to see a shooting star, and you don't have to be an ichthyologist to recognize a sucker.
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Elijah
I see no point in punishing or sacking the driver. It is normal for one to pray before embarking on a journey, he may pray silently or loudly so the the whole student may have journey mercy. So far he doesn't force any student he should not be sacked. By the way we learned America is Gods own country why then everything is turning upside down. Allow the driver to be doing his work.
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CW
You’re living in a fantasy land if we think religion and education will never intersect. In the 80's no teacher talked of religion, or politics or they would be fired. What happened to the school of today that teachers no longer have to follow laws and teach facts not opinion?
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Kevin Magovney
The Prince of peace does not want people to love him through coersion. He wants you to love of your own free will.
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Carl Elfstrom
Moses wasn't very bright iether or he would have done a better job of writing those silly commandments that nobody can ever entirely adhere to. Anyone who ever tried to could only be a self - defeatist.
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Carl Elfstrom
The writers of our constitution were apparently retards. That's why we've had to make so many amendments. And we aren't through yet.
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Carl Elfstrom
And no, it doesn't say anything about that in the constitution or bible, and if you aren't capable of original thought please do this world a favor by walking off the side of the planet and getting lost in the ether.
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Carl Elfstrom
P.S. The rest is trivial. So, "No more tears." It's just a hand in the bush, and another break in the wall. We don't need no education, but you can't have your pudding before you eat your meat. And, I just want to get my kicks before the whole shit house goes up in smoke. Rock on !
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DJ
Prayer is a blessing. Pushing it on others is not.
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George Girman
I suppose this issue of Freedom of Religious expression can go all the way around. Suppose, for instance, the Bus Driver were a Muslim, and wanted the students to know more about Allah! Would the parents and school administrators be just as tolerant of that?
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Robert Zeinstra
Hello, just a correction on the original article. There is no such thing as a "separation of church & state" clause or mention in the constitution. This notion is a myth.
The phrase "separation of church & state" was written in a letter to the sitting President by the leader of the Southern Baptist Convention because he wanted to ensure the federal government wasn't going to create a "state church", like the Church of England.
So, the origin of this phrase was an effort to keep the state out of the business of forcing people into a particular form of Christianity. The origin was not intended to stop people who work for the federal government from expressing their religious freedom.
Over the years the courts have ruled that public employees have to avoid making an unreasonable influence to their constituents toward any particular religion.
Based on that case law.... if the bus driver is perceived as unreasonably encouraging his religion on the students he's doing wrong. He just needs to find another job that is in the private sector if he wants to do that.
But let's be clear, if the bus driver is just expressing his religious preference through his dress, jewelry, speech, etc. he's not doing wrong, even in the public sector.
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Ron
In the article the author says the guy must not have read the part of the constitution about the seperation of church and state. Where do they find these supposedly educated journalist. The guy didn't read about the seperation of church and state in the constitution because it's not there.
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Carl Elfstrom
The hell with the constitution. If you preach to my children I'll kick your ass anyway!
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Mykl
The driver was absolutely wrong. And if I catch someone trying to convert my child to any religion , I will sue the heck out of them. You Christian's keep saying it's not a religion , it's a personal relationship with jesus. Well. Keep it personal. As in to yourself. There are plenty of places where preaching is acceptable. Keep it there. Dont be feeding my kids all your BS. And that's what it all is. BS. if I want my kids to know about religion, I'll tell them myself.
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Bill Fox
Persecution is a consequence of evangelism and a consequence of exercising one's right to evangelize. Bless the man and pray for him to find a better job. He is obligated as a Christian to obey the authority of the government and his employer.
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Carl Elfstrom
Let's sodomize him before we crucify him !
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Lori
Yup...we're all on the same bus heading toward the same destination. And this is the one and only truth! Blessed be!
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Carl Elfstrom
That's right Lori, and the holy choir of AC/DC put it best by singing about the highway to Hell.
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Thomas Lightning Bolt
White main stream christian ONLY! This is the reality! Anyone else gets called crazy and chemically castrated and chemically lobotomized! The real terrorists run America. separation between church and State? Don't make me laugh! What a scam and a lie! I have the proof! You people can't see it from within your white privilege, looking out your white window! Just try walking a DIFFERENT path, and find out the reality of the so called 'land of tolerance' you REALLY live in! Nazi Germany!
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Ron
Hey Lightning Bolt. Did you not notice that the person this article is about is not white?
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Carl Elfstrom
Apparently you're prejudiced against white people, and that doesn't make you any better than other prejudiced people.
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Modern Day Daniel
Be as wise as a serpent and as gentle as a dove.
Anyone forcing someone else to believe their viewpoint. Be it a professor screaming secular humanism, or dogmatic Islamic radicals or White Arian Supremists etc.. is a violation of civil rights.
Moral instruction is valuable, but and having a genuine relationship with Jesus is what changes a person’s heart.
We are ambassadors of another kingdom. Many people say that REALITY is staying within the social norms and not rocking the boat... but if we never risk stepping out, we will never “walk on water” ... Gently asking questions, valuing other people’s viewpoints, listening, these are how we promote heaven’s kingdom. It is the clearest REALITY to me. (Humbly stated).
We as a Country forbid Bibles in schools, but freely allow them in Prisons. Hmmmmmm
Bibles seem to be needed up front not once a person is locked up. If ya simply follow what the Bible teaches you find there would be fewer people in prison!
If society changes, and we end up being shackled FOR our beliefs then I still choose Christianity OVER AMERICA’s post-Christian era progressive thinking.
Because pleasing God is more important than bowing before the Humanist Manifesto. See the book of Daniel.
Modern Day Daniel -
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Taos Joe
Children Let's ALL Pray & See if GOD Stops Crazy Dave From Driving U'all off this Cliff..Ehhhhhhhh !!!
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Keith Gouwens Sr (@GouwensSr)
No matter what religion you are no matter who you are if we all just try to follow the Ten Commandments it would be a better world.
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Thomas Lightning Bolt
So another person of another religion or culture should follow YOUR 10 commandments? YEP' 'Hitlers way, or NO WAY'! Hitler had a final solution too!
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SeekerOfTruth
Not really. The first 5 are all about Judaism and have no force in law and the last 5 aren't nearly enough for a set of laws - just random oddments.
The Hammurabian Code is divided into 12 sections and consists of 282 laws, 34 of which are unreadable. The Jews copied that into their code of 613 commandments.
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William C Millhouse
This bus driver should be dismissed immediately. It is very wrong for anyone to force their religion on anybody. This "outreach" effort is one of the main reasons that I am now Pagan.
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Thomas Lightning Bolt
What else is new? the age old practice of conversion or elimination.... this is called child abuse! This bus driver should be fired! Immediately! No respect at all for anyone else or their belief systems. That is the REAL American way!
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Carl Elfstrom
I'm only Pagan because I have Pagan beliefs.
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jay michaels
In directly addressing the main issue in this article, it's always good to use "tact" in sharing your faith as well as wisdom if you want to keep your job. In responding to all the various comments on this long thread, I can say that all of the religions of the world have some good things to say. You can probably learn something valuable from any of them. The ONE difference that distinctly sets Christianity apart from all the rest is Jesus dying on the cross and being resurrected three days later.
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Carl Elfstrom
And if it wasn't for St. Judas none of that would have happened.
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Rev. EVJ (Emilio Velez Jr.)
LOVE IS THE ANSWER Every day more and more I come to realize that religion does nothing but divide people. Everyone claims to be the truth and criticizes and condemns all the others. Everyone believes that God loves them more than all the others because of the way they worship. If this is the way you believe then you violate everything God stands for. God is not a God of division but a God of unity. As I study the teachings of the Bible, and by the way I lean more toward the teachings of the Bible because this is what I grew up with and what I know best. Today however, I accept without a shadow of a doubt that all teachings of spiritual awareness throughout the world combined point a path to truth. With that said, the teachings of the Bible are not about religion but of a way of life. The teaching of Jesus himself was about who we are, how we function, why we find ourselves in the conditions we find ourselves in and what do we need to do in order to change those conditions. Throughout my life, I’ve been told that in order to change these conditions I need to “Repent”. Well, according to Webster's dictionary the word repent is defined “To think again; to think differently; to change your mind”. So today I understand that in order to change my life I need to change the way I think. That be changing the way I think I will alter the outcome of my life. Throughout the entire Bible we are told about this reality. In the book of Proverbs we read that “As a man thinks in his heart so is he” and it continues to emphasize this reality throughout the entire scripture. So once again I share with you the words of a beautiful song: There is One Power invisible, yet we see it everywhere and every day. One Power indescribable, yet we speak of it with every word we say. It’s mysterious until we know the truth, and it’s as simple as the Love inside of you. We speak so many languages, wear different clothing, different colors, different names. The difference is only dangerous when we forget that in the heart we are all the same. But we will remember once we close our eyes to see, that those distances were never meant to be. Call it God, call it Spirit, call it Jesus, call it Lord, call it Buddha, Baha’u’llah, Angels Wings or Heavens Door. It’s Muhammad, it’s you Mind, it’s your Soul or it’s your Sign, it’s the Universe, it’s Music, Mother Earth or Father Time. But whatever name you give it, it’s just One Power can’t you see, whatever name you give it, it’s the very Air we breathe and it’s the Power of the Love that resides in You and Me. One Power. Out of all the gifts we have been blessed with there are three that remain (the three most powerful gifts of all) Faith, Hope, and Love. But the greatest of these three is Love. Imagine what the world would be like if we all practiced the gift of “Love”.
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Sharon
Separation of church and state is essential as the Founders fled to this land to establish the right to practice our religion but it MUST be separate from the state's institutions. Private prayer is always acceptable.
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Corinna Taylor
When I was in public schools in Pittsburgh, the students were forced to pray - ten verses from the King James Bible followed by the Lord's Prayer and the "under God" Pledge. I was Jewish and an English citizen, but I was forced to read the verses and say the words. But they couldn't force me to believe them - and I didn't. My mother went to an English school where there were obligatory prayers. However, children who were not Church of England were permitted to gather in separate groups to pray according to their own faiths.
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sheryl A clyde
I have jewish ancestors but I was not raised jewish. I am sorry you were put through that. No one should have to try be forced to believe what goes against their own personal beliefs. Even God gives people a choice.
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sheryl A clyde
It says Mark 10:14 When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. But the verse says let the children come to me it does not say push the little children to me and don't stop. I understand his desire to witness to the children but simply telling them about Christ one time should be enough and then he needs to suffer whatever consequences he gets from doing that with joy and thanksgiving Matthew 5:11 Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. All to often we are all to eager to take our rights to court or the government but that is not what Christ teaches us to do in order to reach others. IF you truly want to reach others for Christ and live the kind of life they did go back to basics and study the bible especially the gospels.
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Carl Elfstrom
Christ didn't even use antiperspirant. Who wants to live like that ? The nerve of some people ! He also needed a shave and a haircut in a bad way. We don't even let people who look like that enter our neighborhood.
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Ken Dixon
Not a single person alive knows which religion is right. A great many of us seek meaning for this existence and may find comfort in a certain belief system. There's strong element of hope in "faith", and who can find fault with that?
It would be fine if religions merely met the spiritual needs of their own adherents and provided guidelines for what they define as "good" living. It's when they instead focus so intently upon teaching that others are "wrong", "sinful", etc., and emphasize the need to proselytize that conflicts can arise.
I could not care less what others believe. If you bring your message to my doorstep, I will politely tell you that faith - or the lack thereof - is a personal matter and a subject I don't discuss with anyone.
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Carl Elfstrom
They won't find politeness at my door step.
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Deb
This writer is ignorant of the constitution. Separation of church and state is NOT in it. The first amendment says Congress shall make no law establishing a religion OR prohibiting the free exercise thereof. People have a constitutional right to pray ANYWHERE. see article There is no constitutional right to ignorance http://www.1prophetspeaks7.blogspot.com/2015/08/tthere-is-no-constitutional-right-to.html
1prophetspeaks.com free books,music, articles listen to http://www.1prophetspeaks.com/AskinF.mp3
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Amber
He wasn't just praying, he was forcing the others to pray. Conversion by cohesion went out with the crusades.
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Carl Elfstrom
We don't care about church and state, Debra. Were not gonna take it anymore ! And that may mean forming a Lynch mob.
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Hoggdogg
What ever brente stevens you call your selfe a pastor that the reason people dont like christains
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Lea Weisenbach
Its not just him...
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Carl Elfstrom
That's because pastors are only truly good at herding sheep. And sheep will give syphilus to even the most devout Christians.
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Hoggdogg
I cant belive what people saying about Christianity convert or die the church i go is not like that we belive in Christ and if you dont want to belive than dont if you dont like what we belive in than dont listen what we have to say and what alot here saying we dont have the wright in our belive and want us to stop so why dont people sau anything about SATAN. So we say something about your bellive and want you too stop you wouldnt like it . And there is alot people trying you to convert well thst is an cult so dont judge us
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Lea Weisenbach
People what to see what benefits themselves. I was raised a Christian and I'm not any more. God has no religion. That's fine if you want to believe..go ahead. .Its when you push and think you path is the only path..Your so wrong and disrespectful. I personally don't have to call myself a Christian to see what the man Jesus did in his short life. And that is no different to the others spiritual leaders that worked for the good of the people..But its the damage that happens when people take that spiritual leaders name and use it for personal gain..Its selfish..open your ?
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John A Anderson, CD, CIF Mons ON
Jolly good. We may not be on the same path, but they have been close to parallel at times, i presume.
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Minister Post
Very true, but read your Bible again. Old and new testament. Your works, your casting out demons, healing the sick, and raise the dead. We should practice what Jesus told us to do. His words of spreading love, kindness , compassion, empathy. That was he told us, " spread the gospel to every corner and to do the same works the apostles did.. Most people don't practice what they preach. Part of that rests on the church for being stagnent, just word's of praise. Jesus Christ wanted us to do what he and the apostles did in the here and now..... :D
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Carl Elfstrom
Thomas, I would read my bible, but it went up in smoke. I used all of it for rolling papers, which truly gave me a holy buzz.
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Carl Elfstrom
That's right Lea, and Jesus wasn't even trying to start a religion. That got started by some queer pedophiles who wanted to wear dresses and perform rituals on stage, long before the term drag queen was thought of, so they called themselves Roman Catholic priests instead.
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rabbi jim
Greetings all! I think they were right suspending the driver. Faith is an individual thing. No one has the right to try to influence another persons belief. Yes, it is selfish, indeed. People of any age will discover and choose a faith when they are ready and inspired to. Stop trying to force belief on other people. Sholom, and have a wonderful day. I love you all!
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Lea Weisenbach
Namaste
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Carl Elfstrom
I don't mind Christians as long as they don't act that way in public. Some of my closest friends and relatives are Christians, but are also good people who keep their evil christian beliefs to themselves. Anyone who preaches that evil religion to children should be crucified. If they are going to be allowed to preach religion to children they should teach them about all religions so they'll have a choice. No religion is better than any other one. It just depends on individual choice and beliefs. When Christianity is being taught Satanism should be taught too. At least it's self-divulgent, and there's nothing wrong with that.
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Carl Elfstrom
I've already been listening to religious music this fine Sunday morning, my fellow ministers. That is, music of the priest... the Judas Priest, which would be much better for kids to listen to on a school bus than being preached to about the evils of christianianity. Then students will at least know that they too can scream for vengeance ! From desert plains I bring you love, and am going to take you higher. Amen.
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Thomas Geiger
Everyone has the right to speak their beliefs in hope of influencing others. Whether that belief is religious or political or other. But not on the clock of your employer and certainly not to children unless the consent of the parents is obtained first.
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Rev. Ralph Vendegna
Praying in out loud driving the bus with children of any age is wrong. There are children who do not believe in God as well as their parents. He new it was wrong yet he CHOSE to do it regardless of the rules set forth. It serves him right to get suspended and even Fired. This dude is one who will never learn.
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Lea Weisenbach
Ralph...Your right. I feel its nothing but a selfish act on his part to feed his ego. And I feel people that think they should push are people that are dangerous...Its just disrespectful and a power control act..?
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Pastor B Stevens
Your stating forced prayer to only one belief a White Jesus .... no way in hell is this OK . Any single person can pray quietly without muttering a single word . So that’s BS thinking to state Prayer is needed in a forced manner . How bout Parents decide at home to pray emote leaning for school ..... oh that’s right Parents want to pass blame off for their lazy approach to parenting . Wake up people no public school needs this it’s government forced bran washing . There is a plafria of beliefs in public children students not one chosen government ideal . They simply want full control of 10% of your income now and in the future , this assures pastors of certain religious zealots a rich over the top lifestyle at the cost of the poor based of false fear . By the Way that Jesus you pray to is Not white .... Jesus loves allll the little children Red Yellow Black and last of all European whites . Your modern American Jesus is a false Christ image taken from a 14th century kings son whom wanted his son worshiped . Look it up people . If you truly believe in Christ stop using your White supremest Jesus ..... that’s the Jesus our current evangelical thugs want to push off in public school children . I Jesus open to hate and slavery of non whites . Sorry folks that’s what you believe in ? I’ve herd it over and over recently Jesus stated it’s ok to own slaves ....... that’s coming from a Trump supporters . If there is a hell your well on your own way . Jesus Christ also never ever spoke against homosexuals even not once . I here ohhhh but the Old Testament states your not to lay with the same sex that text is the very text Jesus canceled with the New Testament . Now stop forcing your ignorant hatred upon innocent children let them investigate history on their own . You can’t findthat in most evangelical churches they want complete control of all written transcripts that’s referred to as a Cultic mentality ...... Pastor Brenten Stevens
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, ADS, OM
Pastor Stevens, absolutely! It has always amazed me that some Christian people do not honor Jesus; heritage and just about every painting, nativity scene, depict him as white, pretty shocking and revealing. During a recent conversation with an active duty soldier who is of the Mormon faith, he told me he thought Jesus was white. When he asked me to tell him what I thought, I had to break it to him that Jesus reportedly came from what is known as the Middle East. He had to think about that for a minute. I suggested that he remember what the Afghans and Iraqis look like since he had recently returned from 2 deployments to both countries. It helped him understand how close he was (in Afghanistan and remote areas of Iraq) to the Life Ways of Jesus. Many women still wear burkas as they did in Jesus time.
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Lea Weisenbach
Your funny..Jesus was Jewish..My husband is Jewish blood line..Sorry to tell you..no black. But it really don't matter what color the man was. The fact he stood up to the religions of that day that was abusive..No different then today. A religion/spiritual path for anyone is personal. This is why I say God has no religion.
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John A Anderson, CD, CIF Mons ON
He wasn't black, but he WOULD have been dark-skinned, simply from solar exposure. Even today, those in the Levant are classed as Caucasian (white), although they are dark-skinned. That's right, MOST people considered Muslim are White. Skin colour is affected by genetics and exposure. The further north you go, the less solar exposure there is, and the more sunlight you need to absorb through your skin, to keep you healthy, so there is less melatonin in your skin and hair. Someone from Scandinavia who moved to the Levant would either get more melatonin in their skin (tanning) or die from fluid loss (sunburn drains fluids from the body, via the blisters).
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Dr. Griffith
Pastor Stevens never wrote that Jesus was Black, just not white. How do you know your husband has no Black, did you have a full DNA test and it shows that? He may be Jewish, but his family history has few ties to the Middle East. Your ignorance is unbelievable to me.
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Debra Harlan-Brooks
I guess you just turned this into a political, racial soapbox! Peace out
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Carl Elfstrom
Idiotic Christians only refer to the old testament when they can't find something to justify their hatred in the New Testament. That's probably the only reason why the old testament is included in the christian bible. Fortunately not all Christians do that. Many of them only believe in the new testament, or at least their personal interpretations of it, which are also often quite distorted. Personally, I'm not against Christians, but think their whole religion sucks.
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Phil sears
This country is getting diverse in the 'expression of belief in the freedom of religion'.That means All religions have to be excepted , and stop thinking one type of religion is better than the rest.
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Lea Weisenbach
Your right Phil..god has no religion.
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Beth K
Of course it would be okay if (some of) the children on the bus wanted to organize their own prayer group or religious studies group on the bus.. That is STUDENT LED school prayer, not STAFF LED school prayer. Although he says he didn't force any children to pray, his position of authority would lead them to conclude it was not their choice. Staff consists of more than teachers and principals.
Consider how you might feel if there were a bus driver asking the children to pray to Allah or Kali with him, which you consider contrary to the religion you have taught them to practice. After all, the driver has his freedom of religion, and you can't be sure that ALL drivers will be Christian.
(I cannot resist throwing cream pies sometimes :) ) Perhaps this need to pray on a school bus is testimony to the driver's competence driving the bus. (GDR)
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Clayton Beardmore
WE are becoming a nation of weirdos. This PC stuff has to stop.
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Carl Elfstrom
When weren't we a nation full of wierdos, Clay ?
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Critter Catcher
I'll be sure move to your town and become a satanist bus driver teaching all the little kiddies about our lord Beelzebub since you're down with sharing beliefs on the clock
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Chris
Being politically correct in this situation means the bus driver does not have the right to try and convert his captive audience. While the First Amendment applies only to the federal level, in that the federal government cannot show preference to one particular religion, cannot establish a religion or prohibit the free exercise of a religion, public schools are run at a state level. And while the state level does not have any prohibition against religion as such that doesn't make forced conversion appropriate.
I do find it interesting that it's considered Politically Correct to ensure the rights of everyone and not just one group of people. It's pretty telling in the mindset of those who cry about everyone being 'PC'.
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sheryl A clyde
PC is a term used by people who want to be rude, impolite and harassing without judgement. They are people who wish to toss common respect and decency out the door in the name of the 1St. amendment (which is only for them) and claiming that being pc is somehow evil and redundant.
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John Owens
In many cases, not all, it can be.
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Martha Knight
What if some students on the bus organize their own prayer group and pray during the bus ride? That is their right, so long as no one in authority is imposing it on them and so long as it is not disruptive and does not create any hazardous distraction. Persons in authority in the school system may not impose prayer, choose the prayer, conduct the prayer. A bus driver is given a certain amount of authority, and represents the school system.
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Lea Weisenbach
Nazism is Christianity..This is by far not a Christian country...I wish people would live their belief..You can pray..meditate..a moment of silence..As long as your not imposing on anyone. Pushing your faith is nothing more than being egotistical and selfish.
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Janice A Ellery
your comment equating christianity with Nazism is both ignorent and judgemental' I agree his behavior was inappropriate but so is flinging out comments like yours,What if he were trying to convert them to being Hindu or Muslim? Would you still call him a Nazi then?
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Lea Weisenbach
That's what i'm saying...My statement is far from ignorant...Its the point I'm trying to make is a lot of hate hides behind religion. People are blind and selfish not to see it. We judge so mush on symbols and judge on looks we forget to look deep. I'm not the fool here.
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Lea Weisenbach
And for your information..The Nazis are Chistian.
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Doug Barron
Indeed; followers of Jesus are definitely not nazi. Did you work under Goebbels, by the way? You are a master at dis-information!
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John A Anderson, CD, CIF Mons ON
@ Doug Barron, The statement was based on the fact that National Socialists were nominally Christian, in a predominantly Christian country. TRUE Followers of Yeshua would not have been involved in the camps, but people don't necessarily follow the exact teachings of the founder of their faith, but rather the words of those in the pulpit. And remember that anti-Semitism did not start with NDSAP, but goes back to the Roman era, after the standoff at Masada.
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, ADS, OM
You are so right - white supremacists,white nationals, KKK Christians, Neo Nazis too. They all drink from the same hate-filled punch bowl. And yes, no one is prohibited from praying. But to either influence or brain wash children to accept THEIR religious views is wrong. I don't anyone telling my children they need to pray in a christian manner. It is surprising that anyone would complain that you are "being judgemental.: How silly , we are on these blogs, we are judging and responding to the original story and questions. Thanks Lea.
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Thomas N Binnall
I-G-N-O-R-A-N-T is the correct spelling. I find ironic you can't spell a word you use to judge another !
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Carl Elfstrom
No English word is spelled with all capital letters with dashes between them.
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Doug Barron
Your statement comparing Faith in, and adherence to the Word and teachings of Jesus to the politics of Adolph Hitler is quite assinine and ignorant.
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Lea Weisenbach
Doug Barron you need to check your history. Not just the one that benefits your fairytale. Even the pope at that time watched the Jews walk to their death and did nothing..Christianity has a very bloody path.
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Thomas Geiger
My guess is that you didn't read and/or comprehend Doug's reply. Your reply speaks of the actions of a pope. Doug spoke of the teachings of Jesus. These can be two totally different things.
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, ADS, OM
A very bloody path indeed, especially throughout the Americas. A friend of mine, who is a researcher and scholar, H. Henrietta Stockel, published "On the Bloody Road to Jesus:Christianity and the Chiricahua Apaches." Anyone questioning the historical relationship between the violence and evilness of Christianity and how indigenous peoples have been harmed in the Americas, would be well informed after reading this book.
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Rev. John D. Partin
Lea Weis, I'm not the Catholic Church's apologist or their biggest fan, either, and I assume with the last name of Weis that you are Jewish or of Jewish descent, but fair is fair. Pius XII, who was Pope during the Nazi regime, couldn't have said or done very much against the Nazis without inciting and egging them on to even more attacks on Jews and others. The Dutch bishops complained about the Nazis' treatment of Jews in Holland and all that it did was infuriate them and make them round up more Jews for the concentration camps!! So, the Pope had to be careful what he said against the Nazis. He did hide Jews from the Nazis on Vatican territory. The Concordat with Hitler was to protect German Catholics and still Catholics were sent to concentration camps and killed, too, because Hitler didn't stick to agreements if he didn't want to or could get an advantage for himself by not doing so. So, let's give credit where credit is due, for whatever the Pope was able to do for Jews and others while dealing with a madman and his followers.
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Rev. John D. Partin
Lea Weis, excuse me, my mistake. I thought that you were Jewish or of Jewish descent because of your last name, but just read that you were raised Christian and aren't anymore.
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John Owens
Nazism is also liberalism. Just saying.
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sheryl A clyde
Now I have to say something. I am sorry my conservative friend John but Nazism and being liberal have nothing to with each other. In fact if you look up the definitions of both you will find that the current administration and republican party fit the definition of Nazism better then liberals do.
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John Owens
Sheryl, you are ABSOLUTELY wrong. The LEFT are the ones who want to censor free speech, tear down monuments and statues, decide what is politically correct, eliminate unwanted babies and old people, swing elections by crooked voting etc. The RIGHT is doing none of those things. Antifa and BLM want to act like Brown Shirts. All LEFTISTS. Think again.
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sheryl A clyde
oh give me a break. The Antifa and BLM are not the ones shooting up the schools are they? It is white kids doing the shooting. In fact you don't really hear about them in the news at all. As for censoring free speech trump was the one who said that the press was the enemy of the people so who again is the one doing the censoring? As for statues the government took down those statues so you can blame them. They represented men who fought for slavery hardly something that should be celebrated.
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John Owens
The kids shooting up the schools are not from conservative homes. They are the children of liberals or products of social programs and broken homes. Skin color has nothing to do with it. Trump did NOT say free speech is the enemy. A lying liberal media IS the enemy.
If you rationally examine prison populations, you will doubtless find that most criminals are from the left, and most come from broken homes which are broken because of liberal philosophy and behavior.
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Rev. John D. Partin
To whom it may concern, "Nazism is also liberalism" only to those who want to scapegoat liberals and liberalism for everything wrong in the world and that they don't like and not take any responsibility for their own actions and those of other conservatives. Nazism and Liberalism could hardly be synonymous terms when outright Nazis oppose gay rights and marriage, democracy, equal pay for women for the same job and equal justice under the law, interracial marriage, and everything else that liberals are for. On the other hand, conservatives agree. with Nazis on many issues, even though they can't be as blatant about it and go as far as the Nazis did. So, quite obviously, conservatives are far closer to being actual Nazis than any liberals are.
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Alicia
No one is saying this man can't pray.....SILENTLY. It's not his place to push any religion.
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Joe
If Christians were not willing to break the rules there would be no Christianity.
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Lea Weisenbach
Your right about that..Christians breaking the rules. Convert or die.
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Doug Barron
No.. that is called mohammedism/ islam. They are the ones that their imams preach: "convert; or die." "Death to the infidels!"
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John A Anderson, CD, CIF Mons ON
One single word: Crusade. And they were not all done to get Jerusalem free of Muslim control. Half of them were fought to convert one group of Christians to the ways of another group. It's just that Muslims are about 700 years behind Christianity (which is logical, because the Hajira didn't happen until about 720 AD). One of the main reasons why I left monotheistic faith was the fact that they don't practice what they preach, as a general rule. And, consider the fact that there are about 1 billion Muslims, out of 7 billion people on this planet. If all Imams were preaching this, rather than just the Wahabis, they would each only have to kill 6 people to wipe everyone else out, Don't confuse the Wahabis with ALL Muslims, unless you want me to group you in with Jehovah Witnesses and the Westboro Baptists. Study history, rather than spouting what you have been programmed to say by mass media.
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Dan Atatakai
John - Islam does not command the killing of anyone who is non-Muslim. The infidel/kafir/unbeliever is the invader, who was well known to rape, pillage and murder people in their homes. Most people do not understand this concept.
Thank you, John, for addressing this topic.
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Reverand Raymond Smith
Well said, John I agree with you. Some christians do seem to forget the Crusades
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Lea Weisenbach
Doug Barron you don't know your history.
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Carl Elfstrom
A lot of people don't seem to realize that the bible, as well as the kuran were written long ago when people lived much differently and had different beliefs and morals than we do now. Everything written in those books reflected what was going on back then, and didn't make any references about how anyone should do anything hundreds and thousands of years in the future, after the world became a totally different place. Instead of them living their lives based on the dictates of ancient, irrelevant dogma, why don't they try developing healthy, moral consciences, and living by that ?
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Dan Atatakai
Doug - It might help if you learn what the religion you are attempting to defame actually teaches. Please read what I posted to John Anderson.
Mohammedism? No such thing. Muslims do not follow Muhammad. They follow the same God of Abraham that Christians and Jews follow. Unlike the Jew, the Muslim sees Jesus not only as the greatest Prophet of God, but also savior as well.
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Allen
Atatakai, Ref. May 2, 2018 at 4:33 am: where do you get your information that Islam does not command the killing of anyone who is non-Muslim? . From the Koran? . Koran 2:191 slay the unbelievers wherever you find them. Koran 3:28 Muslims do not take the infidels as friends. Koran 3:85 any religion other than Islam is not acceptable. Koran 5:33 Main and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam. Koran 6:12 terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Koran. Koran 8:60 Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorize the infidels. Koran 865 the unbelievers are stupid, urge the Muslims to fight them. Koran 9:5 when opportunity arises kill the infidels wherever you catch them. Koran 9:30 the Jews and Christians are perverts fight them. Koran 9 :123 make war on the infidels living in your neighborhood. Koran 22:19 punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water, melt their skins and bellies. Koran 47:4 do not harker for piece with the infidels, behead them when you catch them. . a peaceful religion. ? . This does not mean that i agree with the bus driver. 99.99% of christian's do not follow the Messiah's teachings, they follow Shaul and church tradition/Minhagim.
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David Armitage
and yet we don't call god Allah do we, w call him God, because we are humble and do not claim to have a personal relationship with God at all, only with Jesus Chrst, and the koran is nother ip off of the bible with bits added to suit the agenda, the part that covers alph nd omega has clearly been ignored.
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John Owens
Then why do some places institute prison for defaming Muhammad? He is just a man, after all. Also, why is the affirmation of faith, " there is one God-- Allah, and Muhammad is His prophet..." if Jesus is the greatest of the prophets, and why are Christians persecuted under Muslim government? I'm just asking, and of course, paraphrasing the affirmation of faith.
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Thomas N Binnall
Infidel is an english language word
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David Armitage
infidel ˈɪnfɪd(ə)l/Submit archaic noun 1. a person who has no religion or whose religion is not that of the majority. "a crusade against infidels and heretics" synonyms: unbeliever, disbeliever, non-believer, heathen, pagan, idolater, idolatress, heretic, agnostic, atheist, non-theist, nihilist, apostate, freethinker, libertine, dissenter, nonconformist; More. just to be clear
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SeekerOfTruth
Massacre at Béziers - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Béziers
The Massacre at Béziers refers to the slaughter of the inhabitants during the sack of Béziers, an event that took place on 22 July 1209, and was the first major military action of the Albigensian Crusade.
2.1 "Kill them all, God will know His own".
When they discovered, from the admissions of some of them, that there were Catholics mingled with the heretics they said to the abbot “Sir, what shall we do, for we cannot distinguish between the faithful and the heretics.” The abbot, like the others, was afraid that many, in fear of death, would pretend to be Catholics, and after their departure, would return to their heresy, and is said to have replied “Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius - Kill them all for the Lord knoweth them that are His” (2 Tim. ii. 19) and so countless number in that town were slain.
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Oh Mo
Well said. The Christian holy books are liberally sprinkled with their god's commands to murder all the people of a city or land without the chance to convert.
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Minister Post
What would you do if the Lord our God showed himself to you and said you must follow my instructions or face my wrath and don't forget how many of his people he vanquished for committing sins again the a Lord God and the testament. I think if it happens to myself, I would need some new under pants.
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Carl Elfstrom
Those goofballs who wrote those so - called holy books were a bunch of nuts.
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Allen
Duckin Acup May 2, 2018 at 6:17 am . What??? . The only book that christians follow are Shaul's writings, and he sent himself out to convert pagans into his form of worship, contrary to the word of YHWH and Yahushua.
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John Owens
Duckin seems to accept the Protestant interpretations on the letters of Paul, and since that interpretation diametrically contradicts Moses, Duckin thinks Paul is an apostate, WHICH HE WOULD BE, if the Protestants were correct. Paul himself tells us they are not correct, though.
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Val
Really what’s he names of those books? I’m a Christian and God says to love each other. Murder is a sin. I don’t know how u lying when u don’t even know the truth. Please let me know the names of the books. Because we use the Bible and try to live by the Bible. I suggest u read the Bible seriously.
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Carl Elfstrom
And the Christian bible wasn't written by God, but by schizophrenics who were then called prophets.
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Thomas Geiger
Actually, i don't necessarily see that. It depends what rules you mean. But you cannot take the moral high ground and say you can break the rules of your employer if proselytizing on company time is forbidden. And if you manage people you are opening up the company for potential litigation should someone of a different faith find discrimination.
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Lori
Would it be acceptable if a group of pagans on the bus decided to pray to their gods and goddesses? I think many Christians would be very concerned. There is a time and a place for these things. Not on a school bus.
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Reverend Thomas Bell
Are government originally broke the rules by denying religious freedom anywhere. I think the bus driver should be commended
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Carl Elfstrom
I think the bus driver should be crucified.
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SeekerOfTruth
> Are government originally broke the rules by denying religious freedom anywhere
Fine. I'll come to your church next week and convert everyone to Scientology. Which is OK because of religious freedom, right?
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Linda Loo
One could say the same thing about any set of beliefs. Break the rules inside of your churches, temples and mosques if it’s sanctioned. Spare the rest of us from your proselytizing. News Alert: Believing in something doesn’t make you right or give you permission to trample on the rights and/or beliefs of others. My conclusion — this driver was wrong regardless of his motives.
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Carl Elfstrom
Call me Pontius Pilate if you will. I say " Crucify him!"
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Dan Atatakai
Again, prayer is NOT prohibited in schools. It just can not be led by school staff or educators. The students can pray all they like, AS LONG AS IT DOES NOT DISRUPT THE CLASS.
As the driver is classified as staff, he went "over the line" to preach at the students.
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Danny Boss
This is a crime. He is an employee of the state and in doing so he does not have a race, religion, or cultural back ground when on the clock. He should be suspended without pay and made an example of .By taking classes about diversity and how he is no part of it .
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David Armitage
a tad harsh don't you think . I guess you are anti -religion , you certainly portray yourself as such!!
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Dr. Griffith
I see nothing harsh about what Danny Boss states for the punishment. He broke the law, period.
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SeekerOfTruth
If you're working for me at my steak restaurant, I don't want you telling all the diners they should be vegans. Not on my dime.
If you are just another guest and you want to discuss it with the other diners AND THEY DON'T MIND, that's your business.
Now do you understand?
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jennyphillipsfl
As a vegan, I appreciate your, and your diners' right to be blood letting carnivores. I would simply spend my money and my time at another restaurant.
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Carl Elfstrom
Define religion, AArmitage. It doesnt mean Christianity. Danny Boss made perfect sense to me. That wasn't even a church bus he was driving, but he acted like it was. That will probably be his next job.
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Renee
Danny Boss, it is not correct to state that this gentleman is an employee of the state because he is not. He's an employee of the bus company that is contracted by the school district also he does have a race, religion and cultural background while he's on the clock he just can not force any of his personal beliefs on anyone he comes in contact with and that is against the law because it folds into brainwashing. Suspending him is not helping the situation any and taking diversity classes because he's spreading his beliefs doesn't fit the situation at all. I think that because this was not his first time doing this than maybe you should remove him from bus driver and the children and put him someplace in the company where there are no children. hmmm!
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Carl Elfstrom
I don't think the picture of that bus driver depicts him as a gentleman or even prominent in any way. He looks like a besheviled old wino who just wandered out of an alley. He probably stole his Bible from a mission. It's hard to believe they'd give him a job driving a school bus. Did anyone check his credentials. Maybe he just watched my all time favorite movie Catch Me If You Can. His next job will probably be as an airline pilot. I can hear him preaching over the loud speaker.
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jennyphillipsfl
I'm in agreement that private religion has no business in a public school. But what a hateful load if bigotry. Because you find him unattractive, doesn't mean gis driving record or other credentials aren't impeccable.
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chrisian
Everybody need prayer. He did the right thing. Read the word of God for yourself. Seek the True and Living God and His Son Jesus before it's too late.
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sandy
The bus driver may not necessarily be considered a "staff" person with the school district. A lot of schools contract out to other companies to provide bus services. Depending on what is in that contract, it may be just fine. I certainly wouldn't go so far as to jump to a conclusion that it is a "crime" as there are too many unknown variables.
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Gail Anderson
As a contractor he represents the school district. The students are in a closed setting from which they can't escape. My daughter enjoyed a lively debate on politics with other students on a school bus. They had a chance to interact, learn from each other, a chance to learn persuasion techniques. No harm, no foul. At the end of the route, my daughter was the last rider on the bus. The driver refused to let my child exit the bus until the driver delivered a stern lecture on why my child was wrong and would burn in hell. That driver was disciplined.
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SeekerOfTruth
> That driver was disciplined.
Good. That's how it is supposed to happen.
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Carl Elfstrom
Thankyou, Dr. Spock.
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David Armitage
He ha the right to practice his beliefs, would the same argument merit this much controversy i it were another religion. say from the middle East???because it seem sthat that is the only one that can simply do a it like without any form of kickback
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Dr. Griffith
You sir, are a bigot and a liar. You have been brainwashed by the lies of the fake Christians of the far right. Christians are not persecuted in the USA.
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SeekerOfTruth
I think you missed his point. He is saying that if the driver was a Muslim trying to get all the kids to pray to Allah, all hell would break loose. Even trying to teach them the 5 pillars of Islam would do that.
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Dragon Priest
This proselytizing must be kept off Public Schools. He can do that at a bus for a church but not a public school.Fools abound in this nation and the biggest ones are the religious christians.
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God Bless Him & everyone sincerely hopes he finds a new job with a religious school.
"His Sheep Know His Voice..."