With the midterm elections and a so-called "migrant caravan" putting renewed focus on immigration issues, one particular group has emerged as the biggest opponent of letting new immigrants into the country: white evangelicals.
That's according to the Public Religion Research Institute's ninth annual American Values Survey, which covered topics such as immigration and racial diversity and asked whether they constitute "threats" to American values.
The white evangelicals surveyed reacted strongly to data forecasts that show the U.S. will become a minority white nation by 2045. When asked to characterize this ethnic and racial "realignment," 54 percent of white evangelicals saw it as a negative – by far the highest out of any religious demographic group. Meanwhile, over 80 percent of Hispanic Catholics and black Protestants and 51 percent of white Catholics and Protestants saw it as a positive.
Immigrants: A Threat to American Values?
More than half of white evangelicals surveyed believe immigrants "threaten traditional American customs and values." Interestingly, at least 47 percent of white Catholics and 48 percent white mainline Protestants agreed.
So that covers immigration in general, but what about refugees and asylum-seekers in particular?
Most religious Americans oppose any hypothetical ban on refugees entering the United States. But among non white evangelicals, more than 50 percent said they would support such a law. These same evangelicals were least likely to oppose separating immigrant children from their families along the Southern border and most likely to support a "temporary travel ban for people from some majority-Muslim countries."
Fear of "The Other"
The history of the United States is one of new immigrants coming here seeking promise and opportunity. So why is this phenomenon still viewed as such a threat?
Janelle Wong, a professor of American Studies, set out to answer this question during a Brookings Institution panel discussion in Washington, D.C. "To understand white evangelicals here in the U.S., we really need to look beyond the hot-button traditional religious views of abortion and same-sex marriage," she explained. "The real key to understanding them is through their anti-immigrant attitudes and fear of demographic change. It is really this potent mix of nativism and racial anxiety and white Christian nationalism that underlines many of the other policy attitudes that you see presented in this report."
Would Jesus Welcome Immigrants?
Is it fair to single out white evangelicals for their views? After all, opponents of immigration can be found in all corners of American society. But the fact remains that striking numbers of religious Americans oppose immigration in one form or another -- a view that critics translate to "a better life for me, but not for thee."
Does that mindset square with biblical values?
Jesus spoke often of helping the poor, the needy, the disenfranchised. Religious groups that do support immigration commonly cite Leviticus 19:34, which says: "the foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt."
Then again, the Bible is a versatile tool that can be wielded to support a wide range of positions. As you might remember, earlier this year Attorney General Jeff Sessions cited a passage from the Bible to defend separating immigrant children from their parents at the border.
What do you think? Can lessons from the Bible be selectively applied, or does being a follower of Christ require sticking by the teachings of Jesus no matter the circumstances?
319 comments
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Christian
Why don't they all flee TO Venezuela ? Because the collectivist crime of socialism and communism always leads to mass graves and genocide.
United Socialist Party of Venezuela has not offered any new homes to the hundreds of thousands of foreigners.
ANYONE wanting to honestly become Citizens of the ISA just sign up with the U.S. ARMY and EARN Citizenship with honor, job training, full pay, a safe place to live, and Free University via the G.I. BILL.
Yes, anyone willing to Defend the Flag and the Families of USA Earns Full citizenship.
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Lionheart
Things that brighten my day and gladden my heart on a daily basis:
1) The knowledge that President Trump is our President of the United States. What a wonderful feeling that is every morning to wake up to. Doesn't that just gladden your heart every morning?
2) The knowledge that Hillary "Nodding Dog" Clinton lost the election. A woman that at times needed help getting into her limousine from nearly passing out. Phew, the United States of America dodged a bullet there big time. It almost made me believe in a God. I mean, if I needed evidence of a God, that could possibly have been it right there.
3) Getting to my daily emails in the hope of seeing more negative comments from members of the Democratic "Poor Losers" Party. I sometimes can't get to my emails fast enough to have a good laugh. It really is better than any comedy show, and puts a spring in my step, and a smile on my face, every day.
4) Oh joy of joys, the knowledge that we have at LEAST two more years under our wonderful President working hard to make America great once again by putting America first, and not America last, which Obama worked so hard to do.
5) The knowledge that hundreds of those hoping to gate crash into the USA are now "seeing the light", and accepting free flights to go back home, offered by the Mexican government. Hopefully, many more will soon follow suit.
Let's hope that our border wall is erected, or strengthened, in the very near future. Let's not forget that Obama, Hillary, Joe Biden, Chuck Schumer and Diana Feinstein all voted for a 700 mile fence in 2006. I'm sure they would love to see our wonderful President fulfill that request to help make America great once again.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
What REAL Christians and other truly spiritual people do. Priest to take 50 tons of supplies in 7 trucks to help migrant caravan." ByEmily McTavish - Chicago Sun Times
Rev. Jose Sigfredo Landaverde has only been getting three or four hours of sleep a day since he started colllecting relief aid for the migrant caravan making its way through Mexico to the U.S.
But despite his lack of sleep, his work has paid off: his Little Village mission Faith Life and Hope has received donations totaling more than 50 tons of goods — a full seven semitrucks worth of supplies.
And the mission is still collecting supplies, which can be dropped off at 3348 W. 25th St. 24 hours a day until he and other volunteers leave Nov. 28 for Nogales, Arizona and Laredo and Reynosa, Texas. The priest said they need more donations of non-perishable food, clothes and medical and baby supplies.
The trucks will split up so they can meet the migrant caravan at different places along the U.S.-Mexico border.
Hundreds of members of the caravan have already reached the border city of Tijuana — one of the locations his team will travel to. Thousands of others are in Mexico City and much further south.
Volunteers are already at the border, Landaverde said, to help migrants start the asylum application process. More volunteers with experience in immigration law will be traveling with Landaverde’s aid trucks.
“We want them to get in the right place to avoid trouble so they can get in,” Landaverde said of the migrants.
Landaverde has also expanded the campaign to provide aid to the residents of Nayarit, Mexico, who were displaced by Hurricane Willa last month.
Online, Landaverde has collected $1,000 through a GoFundMe campaign he started last week, and his goal is to reach $5,000.
https://chicago.suntimes.com/?post_type=cst_article&p=1503743&utm_campaign=ChicagoSunTimes&utm_content=1542340801&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR1G5xcijM1HuhPcuJf3WYHaQX3yBlWIvEyaU-mG4Z0MxW8CtC30N-NFo2A
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John Owens
I suppose if the caravaners were "real" Christians, to use your term, they might have stayed at home and made their own home a better place to live, but thank you for defining for the rest of us what "real" Christians should do. I suppose you sent a healthy contribution to Señor Landaverde? I mean, funding trespassers who insist we invite them or they will storm our border is a worthy, noble cause.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
From the article: "Pastor Wanted to Know the Truth About the Migrant Caravan. So He Joined It"
Saying he’s interested in pe"ople not politics, a Texas pastor is traveling with the migrant caravan in Mexico. Gavin Rogers, associate pastor at San Antonio’s Travis Park United Methodist Church, has been documenting his journey—and the relationships he’s forming—on Facebook.
Rogers writes about long days of traveling with 6,000 refugees via a wide variety of methods. Reaching Guadalajara, for example, involved covering 400 kilometers in “23 hours of walking, hitchhiking and police escorts. Walking. Car, semi-trailer, truck, police truck, dump truck, bus, shelter.”
On November 11, the pastor posted, “It is a long road. But life is good when you are with people filled with love and hospitality.” A Mexican truck driver who volunteered to drive some refugees to their next shelter site said he acted “because I’m human.” The subway in Mexico City also provided free rides to the traveling refugees.
Misleading Images Create Fear of Caravan in Mexico, Rogers Says Hoping to dispel fear and falsehoods about caravan members, Rogers is sharing photos of what the migrants and the people helping them really look like. “Kindness is all over the place,” he writes next to posts of “real images of Mexican police officers and refugees.”
The pastor criticizes people, including Christians, who are sharing images about “the supposed violence in the caravan.” When someone posted to Rogers’ Facebook page photos depicting violence, an image search revealed they were actually from 2012. One such post has been removed, probably because of its misleading nature. Local officers Rogers has talked to say the caravan has been overwhelmingly peaceful, with no police-related conflicts.
“Creating fear is a tactic that is continually used to separate people and label the other,” the pastor writes. “People, especially people who proclaim Christ, who post such obvious posts should apologize and delete the garbage. Love conquers hate.”
An Inside Look at the Migrants’ Stories In online interviews, Rogers introduces some of the refugees he’s been meeting, saying his friendships with them “will last forever.” Many of the travelers have young children and are pushing strollers, he notes, adding that “the love these families have for each other is outstanding.”
The group Rogers is traveling with is heading toward the border town of Tijuana, Mexico, and likely won’t arrive for several weeks. Many of the migrants have family members who are already in the United States, while others want to get legal help in applying for refugee status.
Rogers reports that the migrants he’s meeting are wary of seeking asylum in Mexico because of the country’s unstable political situation and rampant threats of violence, drug cartels and gangs.
Refugees sharing their stories with the pastor tell of having their children kidnapped and other relatives killed in Central America. Their journey, Rogers says, is “not about a better life in American terms, it’s just about living.” Their goals, he adds, are to seek an education for their children and “be free from violence and rape and murder.” Rogers admits that claim may sound “extreme,” but says he has firsthand knowledge, obtained by being “willing to talk and learn,” that it’s “exactly what is going on here.”
Read the complete article here: https://churchleaders.com/news/337415-caravan-in-mexico-pastor-wanted-know-truth-about-migrant-caravan-so-he-joined-it.html?fbclid=IwAR2gcPhlQzFXyRdIlyGI3vgMs8gqujcWQ7q-7udX6WAT41yRbCEnT00Zu5o
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John Owens
Even the hardcore leftist Snopes says this is "mostly" true (that's what they say when they can't deny the whole thing): https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/caravan-border-fence-video/
https://nypost.com/2018/11/25/us-agents-fire-tear-gas-at-migrants-in-start-of-border-clashes-with-mexico/ US Border Patrol agents fired tear gas to repel rock-throwing migrants who tried to storm through a border fence separating California and Mexico on Sunday.
Some of the migrants, part of the caravan that traveled to the border from Central America, threw “projectiles” at border agents as they approached the fence, officials said. Video appeared to show rocks being thrown.
US Customs and Border Protection later tweeted that several agents were struck and tear gas was used “to dispel the group because of the risk to agents’ safety.”
Yep. All those mild-mannered women and children throwing rocks and charging fences, we all know that women and kids scare the crap out of border enforcement. Geez
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Ed
Let's get this straight, the race-baiting, racist hypocrites: there is a HUGE difference between LEGAL immigration, and ILLEGAL!
From rape to murder, illegals commit repeated crimes, are deported, and return: http://www.illegalaliencrimereport.com/ You hypocrites want them to have the same rights as citizens...until it comes time to PUNISH them for crimes!
Let's look at this current string: We have the Honduras government providing a member of our government with VIDEO of people PAYING women and children to join the caravan. We have Guatemala releasing in it's newspapers that 100 ISIS members have been arrested, in the caravan.
The caravan was offered jobs and asylum at the Mexican border, where they are no longer under direct threats from where they had fled. Their response? STORM THE GATE! Why? Maybe because there's more ISIS members?
ULC needs to get off it's racist kick, blaming whites and Christians for all society's problems. Look to your own people and religions. Muslims in Iran regularly execute people for the crime of being gay! In parts of Africa, like Libya, Arabs STILL have open slave markets, filled with black Africans.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
ED: Regarding your statement: "We have the Honduras government providing a member of our government with VIDEO of people PAYING women and children to join the caravan." The claim: A video shows a group of people in Honduras being paid by George Soros to join a migrant caravan and storm the United States border. Snopes says: "Miscaptioned" - On 17 October 2018, United States Congressman Matt Gaetz (R-FL) posted a video to Twitter and suggested, without evidence, that it showed a group of people being paid by billionaire George Soros to join a migrant caravan and storm the United States border; https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/soros-caravan-refugees/ The Washington Post Fact Checker Analysis, A grainy video from Guatemala sparks Trump conspiracy theory. What's going on in the grainy video of migrants Trump tweeted? | Fact Checker President Trump and Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-Fla.) cherry-picked a video of Honduran migrants. Then they used it to float unfounded conspiracy theories. (Meg Kelly/The Washington Post) The Facts The one-minute video clip Gaetz tweeted shows no direct evidence of Democrats, NGOs or Soros-funded groups paying migrants. What the video does show: dozens of people separated by gender are standing in loose lines along a roadside. Many of them are carrying bags or backpacks. Two men in white T-shirts and jeans make their way down the lines handing out what appears to be cash (red-and-white rectangular bills). One of the men is seen carrying a handgun in his waistband. The other is wearing a baseball cap that says “Fox,” the logo for a clothing company. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2018/10/19/grainy-video-guatemala-sparks-trump-conspiracy-theory/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.00b6a41129e1
Regarding your statement: “We have Guatemala releasing in it’s newspapers that 100 ISIS members have been arrested, in the caravan.” Snopes says this is a Mixture of true and false. What's True - Guatemalan President Jimmy Morales announced in October 2018 the arrest and deportation of 100 people "highly linked to terrorist groups, specifically ISIS." What's False - The Central American caravan originating in Honduras did not form or reach the Guatemalan border until after the suspected terrorists had been arrested and deported. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/isis-terrorists-guatemala-caravan/
Regarding your statement: “The caravan was offered jobs and asylum at the Mexican border, where they are no longer under direct threats from where they had fled. Their response? STORM THE GATE! Why? Maybe because there’s more ISIS members?” The claim: “The entire Central American migrant caravan rejected Mexico's offer of jobs, medical care and education.” Snopes reports this is a Mixture. What's True - Many members of the Central American migrant caravan moving through Mexico rejected that country's offer of temporary identification papers and jobs if they applied for asylum there. What's False - Some 1,700 caravan travelers opted to accept the offer to apply for asylum in Mexico. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/caravan-mexico-offer/
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John Owens
Snopes is full of shit.
"“Educated on a legal loophole that lets migrant ‘families’ with kids enter the United States, the Homeland Security Department reported Tuesday that men showing up with kids at the border has spiked 110 percent in just the last two years,” Paul Bedard reports in the Washington Examiner.
“The department noted that children could be used by smugglers and drug traffickers to enter the country. Families are also using fraud to game the immigration system. The department said that 170 families have been caught lying about their relationships to enter the U.S.”
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John Owens
The fact remains, that even SNOPES admits there WERE ISIS people in the caravan. That SHOULD inform you that vetting is imperative.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
ED: White American men are a bigger domestic terrorist threat than Muslim foreigners. Since Trump took office, more Americans have been killed by white American men with no connection to Islam than by Muslim terrorists or foreigners. https://www.vox.com/world/2017/10/2/16396612/las-vegas-mass-shooting-terrorism-islam
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John Owens
We still should not import criminals. We have enough of our own.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
‘Criminals?’ Hardly. That’s Who the Caravan Flees. The would-be immigrants to the United States traveling from Central America are trying to escape rule by authoritarian governments tied to gangs, organized crime and other criminal enterprises. "As thousands of Honduran migrants seeking asylum in the United States trek northward through Mexico, President Trump has pledged to stop them at the border by militarizing it with armed federal troops, under the guise of protecting Americans from “criminals” and an “invasion.”
What he fails to recognize is that cruelty won’t solve the current refugee crisis. Neither will buddying up with authoritarian leaders in Central America. Instead, those two strategies only deepen the crisis, because criminality and misrule are exactly what the caravan is fleeing.
What Mr. Trump calls an invasion is actually the visible face of a deadly crisis of governance and violence in almost all of Central America — a retreat from the rule of law in favor of rule by corruption and criminality abetted by officials with impunity.
For example, Mr. Trump supports President Jimmy Morales, his authoritarian counterpart in Guatemala. Mr. Morales is under investigation for possible corruption by the United Nations Commission Against Impunity in Guatemala. He has fought back by revoking the visas of many of the commission’s investigators.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/09/opinion/trump-caravan-migrants-criminals.html
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John Owens
You just keep reading the propaganda, Robert. Let the NYT and MSM program your brain for you. They will guide you to Utopia.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
John Owens: You know about propaganda since you listen to and spout Republican tea-bagging talking points, and right-wing fake news sites like Fox (Faux) News, Newsmax, Red State, Brietbart, the Blaze, Drudge Report, and Info Wars. They do your sticking thinking for you.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
John Owns: They will guide you to your Ayn Rand pure capitalistic paradise.
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John Owens
MS-13 gang member admits he hid in caravan to reach the US border https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/.../ms-13-gang-member-admits-he-hid-in-carav... 2 days ago - An active member of the MS-13 gang admitted to U.S. Border Patrol officials that he joined a caravan of migrants in the hopes of reaching the border and crossing into the United States, a U.S. official told the Washington Examiner. ... Customs and Border Protection said Villalobos ...
MS-13 gang member caught traveling with migrant caravan: Border ... https://nypost.com/.../ms-13-gang-member-caught-traveling-with-migrant-caravan-bo... 2 days ago - Border Patrol agents announced Wednesday they nabbed an MS-13 gang member traveling with the thousands of Central American migrants ...
Here you go, Bobby. Get your head out of your backside.
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Don
LOL!!!! You found one....ONE! Where are the hordes of hardened gang members you claimed were in the group? What was that word again? Oh yeah - EVIDENCE. Yours is sorely lacking (as usual).
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John Owens
Even the hardcore leftist Snopes says this is “mostly” true (that’s what they say when they can’t deny the whole thing): https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/caravan-border-fence-video/
https://nypost.com/2018/11/25/us-agents-fire-tear-gas-at-migrants-in-start-of-border-clashes-with-mexico/ US Border Patrol agents fired tear gas to repel rock-throwing migrants who tried to storm through a border fence separating California and Mexico on Sunday.
Some of the migrants, part of the caravan that traveled to the border from Central America, threw “projectiles” at border agents as they approached the fence, officials said. Video appeared to show rocks being thrown.
US Customs and Border Protection later tweeted that several agents were struck and tear gas was used “to dispel the group because of the risk to agents’ safety.”
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John Owens
Liar. Again. Fiftieth time. Show me where I said anything remotely similar to what you said here: " Where are the hordes of hardened gang members you claimed were in the group?"
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fred klink
ok people the world is the place we all live right? we explored this place pretty good found all kinds of nice peaceful people until some religion said it's our way or die throw away what you believe in because we said so. In fact the spread of religion was because of new people. all were welcome as long as they were like us. but the immigrants are mostly catholic church from spain or rome they sure are not the type evangelicals want might out number them so what you think.
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Tom Peterson
i believe the intent of the person's commiting the act is the determining factor. if their intent as it seem's here is to undermine our country's security then turn them away. if they approach in truth wishing to procure legal entry then i'm for them after back ground check's and questioning.
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Norma Battes
Just want to know November 8, 2018 at 2:27 pm "Is Trump the first President to suffer from mental illness " According to Dr. Jackson he doesn't. If you are referring to his behavior, in all fairness, I wouldn't necessarily attribute Mr. Trump's actions as a form of mental disease. Instead, Mr. Trump basically appears to suffer from character flaws - dishonesty, anger, bragging. Although some of those appear with frequency as seemingly pathological, I believe a goodly amount is simply due to low self-esteem. The classic bully (And now, mass shooter.) is usually the one that fears they're not as good as their peers. Esteemed individuals challenge themselves against the best through science, or music, and even sports. Unfortunately, couple his fears with a strong sense of denial and there doesn't seem much hope for change. But one must hope for the best.
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Past Security Enforcement Loss Prevention Officer
Is Trump the first President to suffer from mental illness
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Lionheart
President Obama was possibly the first, unless someone else can point to others before him. Clinton anyone?
President Trump was arguably the first to stand up to career politicians with the intent of getting the USA back on its feet without feathering his own nest financially because he has enough money to not do that. He is possibly the only President not to take a salary from being President. He is duty bound to accept a salary as President so he accepts $1 and either gives the rest back to the U.S. Treasury or donates it to charity. Doesn't sound like mental illness to me!
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Norma Battes
Lionheart November 8, 2018 at 2:43 pm " President Trump was arguably the first to stand up to career politicians with the intent of getting the USA back on its feet without feathering his own nest financially because he has enough money to not do that. He is possibly the only President not to take a salary from being President. He is duty bound to accept a salary as President so he accepts $1 and either gives the rest back to the U.S. Treasury or donates it to charity. Doesn’t sound like mental illness to me! "
OMG!
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
Lionheart: Post your evidence for saying: "President Obama was possibly the first, (to be mentally ill)."
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John Owens
No. Obama, Nixon, LBJ all mentally ill. I don't know about the ones before Kennedy.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
John Owens: Please post your evidence for saying: "Obama, Nixon, LBJ all mentally ill. "
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John Owens
You can watch Obama now, and see it.
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Lionheart
Totally agree with you John. There’s something just not right with that guy. He’s a very sad figure to watch. I knew it from the moment I saw him bow down to leaders of the Arab world. You won’t find our current President doing that.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
Lionheart: If this isn't Trump kissing the ass of MBS than what is? Trump has sold out the U.S.A. because of the money he gets from Saudi Arabia to prop up his business. Obama never did this. Prove your statement that he did. He is violating the emoluments clause of the U.S. Constitution and his oath of office and is worthy of impeachment and indictment which he shall get. "President Donald Trump signaled Tuesday that he will not take strong action against Saudi Arabia or its Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman for the murder and dismemberment of Washington Post journalist Jamal Khashoggi."
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/20/politics/trump-saudi-arabia/index.html
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
John Owens: Your response is pathetic but what I would expect from a RethugliCON trumpster. No evidence, just an unprovable accusation. This is what we find in the news about President Obama.
"Obama surprises Chicago food bank volunteers and helps prepare Thanksgiving meal bags."
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/21/us/obama-thanksgiving-surprise-trnd/index.htmlGee, nothing about Obama being mentally ill, like we find numerous articles about the tRump.
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John Owens
Look how Robert quotes CNN as if it is an authoritative source. What a goon.
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John Owens
Here: I just googled this. Not that the Blaze is a reputable source, but has to be at least as reputable an authority as CNN.
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John Owens
https://www.theblaze.com/contributions/is-president-obama-insane
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
John Boy: We don't have to imagine a Republican conservative president (Trump) on a trip visiting a mass murderer as this quote from your Blaze article suggests: "Now imagine this Republican-conservative president away on a trip visiting a mass-murdering fanatical right-wing regime that routinely arrests, tortures and murders its own citizens who have different political beliefs. A right wing regime that murders liberal dissidents. A right-wing regime with economic policies that violates civil rights every second of every day, and leaves its own people living in misery and poverty." It has happened and is happening now.
"The kingdom is a "steadfast partner" that has agreed to invest "a record amount of money" in the US, Mr Trump said in a statement. The president acknowledged Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman "could very well" have known about Khashoggi's murder. "In any case, our relationship is with the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia," he added. Mr Khashoggi was murdered on 2 October on a visit to the Saudi consulate in Istanbul." https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46283355
"Saudi Arabia is using its broad anti-terror legislation to imprison and torture political dissidents and reformers, according to a UN panel after a visit to the kingdom. While crown prince Mohammad bin Salman pursues a series of reforms, “no one should be fooled into believing that Saudi Arabia is striving towards a more open and pluralistic form of government”, British QC Ben Emmerson, the UN’s special rapporteur on anti-terrorism, told The Independent. “The very opposite is true,” he added. “What we are witnessing is a regime that is tightening its grip on the social fabric of society, choking all forms of open debate, suffocating civil society, silencing the voice of reform and imprisoning those who are striving towards modernity.”
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-torture-political-dissidents-anti-terror-laws-un-mohammad-bin-salman-a8388226.html
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
Also John Boy: Mr. Putin, whom Trump admires and emulates also is a murderer of his enemies.
"It’s therefore puzzling that President Trump just publicly reopened the issue of state-sanctioned assassinations. In last night’s barn-burner interview with 60 Minutes, the president commented on numerous hot-button topics, yet what pricked up the ears of counterspies inside the Beltway was Trump’s response when asked by Lesley Stahl about President Putin’s employment of assassinations abroad.
Q: Do you agree that Vladimir Putin is involved in assassinations? In poisonings?
A: Probably he is, yeah. Probably. I mean, I don’t—
Q: Probably?
A: But I rely on them, it’s not in our country.
Here’s progress of a sort, with our president veering towards admitting what our allies have been stating on-record, that Putin’s Kremlin is murdering opponents abroad. The near-fatal poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal last March in Salisbury, England, with a weapons-grade nerve agent, has changed the game, since there’s unanimous agreement among Western security services that this outrageous act was the work of Russian military intelligence.
But what about in America? President Trump stated flatly that Russia wouldn’t do such a thing in our country. Regrettably for the White House, there’s good evidence that the president is wrong.
While a lot of Kremlin killings abroad—what Russian spies call “wetwork”—have taken place in the United Kingdom, beginning with the London murder of Aleksandr Litvinenko in 2006, Russians on the run from Putin are dying mysteriously in quite a few countries these days. Including in America.
Nearly three years ago, Mikhail Lesin died violently and mysteriously in our nation’s capital, just one mile from the White House. A onetime member of Putin’s inner circle, Lesin was a wealthy man who knew how Moscow worked. He founded Russia Today (later rebranded as RT) in 2005 to beam Kremlin propaganda worldwide and was in Putin’s good graces for many years. Like many other prominent Russians, however, Lesin eventually wound up on Putin’s bad side, so he fled for the safety of America. Or so he thought.
https://observer.com/2018/10/60-minutes-trump-interview-vladamir-putin-murders-enemies-in-usa-mikhail-lesin/
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
John Ownes and Lionheart: Trump is mentally ill and a danger to the country. He should be in a rubber room in a strait jacket. You won't find article like this about Pres. Obama, only the tRump.
Thousands of mental health professionals agree with Woodward and the New York Times op-ed author: Trump is dangerous.
"Bob Woodward’s new book, “Fear,” describes a “nervous breakdown of Trump’s presidency.” Earlier this year, Michael Wolff’s “Fire and Fury” offered a similar portrayal. Now, an op-ed in The New York Times by an anonymous “senior White House official” describes how deeply the troubles in this administration run and what effort is required to protect the nation. None of this is a surprise to those of us who, 18 months ago, put together our own public service book, “The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump: 27 Psychiatrists and Mental Health Experts Assess a President.” https://theconversation.com/thousands-of-mental-health-professionals-agree-with-woodward-and-the-new-york-times-op-ed-author-trump-is-dangerous-102755
"The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump" A new book delves into the president’s mental health. Posted Sep 28, 2017 https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-time-cure/201709/the-dangerous-case-donald-trump
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John Owens
Bobby, you're being a yahoo. You hate Trump because someone else told you that you should. You are acting like a programmed automaton. A drone with no self-determination. No actual reputable shrink would pretend to do a diagnosis or prognosis on anyone without some kind of real examination, like the bullshit propaganda you are advertising here does. It is not intended to influence anyone who actually thinks or uses their brain, but people like you, who suck it up like hungry little pigs at the slop-trough.
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John Owens
You're the Troll, Bobby. I haven't mentioned anything "extremist". You just made that up like a little liar, and there you go mentioning those news outlets no one else has mentioned. You must live in a dark little fantasy world, like so many of the other democrat minions on here.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
John Boy: I don't hate Trump but I do detest him and not because anyone told me that I should. It was the racist, xenophobic, homophobic, misogynistic, narcissistic, and traitorous words out of his own mouth that convinced me he was a detestable, abominable person and totally unworthy of holding the office of the President of the United States. Mr. Trump himself told me to detest him and multi-millions of other people as well.
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John Owens
There you go with your idiotic mindless programmed speech, Bobby. Looks like you people would get tired of using those words over and over and over and over-- "racist, xenophobic, homophobic, misogynistic, narcissistic, and traitorous words out of his own mouth that convinced me he was a detestable, abominable person and totally unworthy of holding the office of the President of the United States." You lefties just repeat the same drivel over and over.
I will say he probably is narcissistic, and maybe a little misogynistic (which always a relative thing), but none of the rest is anything but made up crap by butt-hurt socialist losers. No evidence at all of any of that other crap. He is no more unworthy than most of our former presidents, and cares a LOT more about this country than Hillary or Barry.
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Don
" idiotic mindless programmed speech...butt-hurt socialist losers"
And this is the clown that "calls me out" for insults.
Your hypocrisy is duly noted.
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Iconoclast
Just want to know,
I love the way you tell a lie while pretending to ask a question. If you have no EVIDENCE that Trump is suffering from mental illness, you are lying by asking that question.
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Don
"EVIDENCE that Trump is suffering from mental illness"
Start here: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42580762 And here: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/resolution-not-conflict/201708/what-is-mental-illness-does-trump-have-one And here: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/07/29/psychiatrist_trump_mental_health_urgently_deteriorating.html
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Iconoclast
Again, I didn't ask for conjecture, propaganda, opinion, or commentary. I asked for EVIDENCE. I believe you have zero, zilch, zip, nada, n'ary'n, etc.
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John Owens
The navy physician who tends to the president (currently Naval Commander Sean Conley) is the only doctor to have actually examined the president, and he says there is nothing wrong with him.
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Don
Evidence (noun) the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.
I understand if you have issues with it, as your beliefs rest on ZERO evidence, but words have meanings, you don't get to make them up. Sorry about that.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
Icon: The Navy Physician who examined Trump is not a psychiatrist and therefore doesn't count.
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John Owens
Bobby, no one's opinion counts, then, since no one else has examined him. Just FYI, all MDs have some psyche training, and all shrinks have some medical training. I guess they don't teach that in lib school.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
John Boy: Psychiatrists are medical school graduates that then go on to specialize in psychiatry. They are licensed as physicians and therefore can practice medicine. Typically, it takes about 8 years of post-undergraduate study to become a board-certified psychiatrist – 4 years to complete your M.D. degree plus another 4 years of residency. They have a lot more training than a physician. I learned this in lib school. More than you learned in conservaturd school.
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John Owens
Did they teach you in lib school that any doctor, medical, dental, or psychiatric, should be making diagnoses without examining the patient? Hmmm? If not, why not stop yapping when you know you are wrong?
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Past Security Enforcement Loss Prevention Officer
Why is Trump so set on this wall. What does he have against Mexicans?
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Lionheart
You totally miss the point. The Mexico border is the place of choice to enter the United States illegally. People from many countries south of the border try to get in illegally from that southern border, not just Mexicans.
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John Owens
This is not about "Mexicans." It is about our sovereignty and public safety. That border, because of lax enforcement policy, has become an huge entry and exit for human trafficking, drug trafficking, and thousands of people entering without any vetting whatsoever, so terrorists and spies use it as well. That is not paranoia. That is established fact.
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Loren
"It's the law." You obviously don't know the law. A person may not apply by text or mail nor at a consulate or embassy for sanctuary. Asylum seekers must show up at a border crossing and ask for admission. This is the only way to apply. It's legal. It's the only legal way. Unless you're a Native American this is how your ancestors were admitted.
Personally I'd rather live next door to someone that walked 1,000 miles to get here than the people that are afraid of them.-
Lori
Thank you Loren. I agree.
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John Owens
For what it is worth, the foundation which conducted the survey is partially funded by : "government ministries in several countries (including ... the Russian Federation, and Libyan Ministry for Education and Research)," WVS is somewhat globalist. Just saying.
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John Owens
Imagine this nation is your house. You believe in being hospitable, and kind, but you still must control who goes in your house, and it is your absolute right to do so. But what if some person outside is hungry and cold? Does that give them a right to enter your home against your will? Absolutely not. If you want to help them, or feel able to help them, that is your right, but they cannot DEMAND it, period. I have not heard one person here say they are against immigration. Not one.
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Bro. Chas
Wow this article really tries to bait readers into thinking that the survey concludes that racism is driving the response of the survey participants and many readers are chomping on the hook.
Here are the facts: 1. The migrant caravan is simply a mass group of people primarily from Mexico and Central America along with smaller numbers of people from Arab nations and other cultures. 2. U.S. intelligence confirms that there are criminals, gang members, previously departed people and people from hostile countries inter-dispersed within the caravan. 3. The vast majority of the caravan members' intent is to enter the United States illegally or at least under false pretenses of political asylum. 4. The caravan is sponsored by leftist radicals and foreign governments opposed to President Trump and our American principles and laws. 5. President Trump is simply applying the immigration laws that have been in-effect for decades...the same laws Obama abided by, but the leftist never found a problem with when he enforced them.
In order for one to properly conclude that white evangelicals are being racist, the folks conducting the survey would have to ask the right questions: Why do you oppose them from entering the United States? Obviously if a majority said it was because of their race or ethnicity then one could conclude they are racist. However, what if the majority were to say they oppose them because they want to enter illegally or America cannot absorb the economic impact of such massive migration or the government cannot reasonably process this many people at one time or any number of other legitimate legal or logistical reasons for opposing them?
Well the answer is very simple - as a surveyor with an agenda, you don't ask any questions that won't support your preconceived and biased intents. Hence that is what we have here - a really lousy survey to stoke hatred and fear and push a radical agenda.
I am so tired of these unintelligent articles and mindless comments! Help, help... no intelligent life found here.
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Minister RVW
I realize our ordinations didn't come via Harvard Divinity School but I'm still so disappointed with many of the back and forth, negative comments that, otherwise, I'll not add my thoughts. RVW
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Norma Battes
Great research BTW.
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Randy K
I welcome immigrants to our GREAT country!! All I ask is DO it legally. and learn the language! I am sick of pressing 1 for English! My Grandparents were immigrants!!! They even signed the ledger on Ellis Island. THEY CAME HERE LEGALLY!!! If you are here illegally then you should be sent back
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Norma Battes
Rev. RJ Levesque, Jr. November 7, 2018 at 7:10 am ” All good hearted joking… “, ” …discussing political ideas and values maturely… “. Hmmm, I’m confused. I thought the good Reverend was joking.
P.S. ” …especially this group. ” This group??? Now you’re joking.
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Norma Battes
Rev. RJ Levesque, Jr. November 7, 2018 at 7:10 am " All good hearted joking... ", " ...discussing political ideas and values maturely... ". Hmmm, I'm confused. I thought the good Reverend was joking.
P.S. " ...especially this group. " This group??? Now you're joking.
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GEORGE SJOSTROM
To start with God is not a political figure and for the life of me I can't understand why every one seems to think otherwise. God won't vote either way nor will Jesus for that matter. While it's a known fact that Jesus was considered to be a heretic by the Roman's while he lived on this planet. There were no republicans or democrats in his day. So why bring God or Jesus in to a discussion where neither has any say.
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Rev. Burns
Um, Jesus was the DJT of his time brother. Hello? Everyone hated him for speaking against the status-quo and what everyone else just took to be fact without looking to their hearts. I for one am very disappointed that more blacks are not speaking up against all the competition for jobs heading our way.
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JR
Intentionally choosing the most controversial possible subject line is the common thread of today's social media. In this particular circumstance, the purpose seems to be challenging the inconsistencies between broad Christian principals and anti-immigration stances held by evangelicals. Certainly there is good reason to question to motives of the writer of the article, which seemed intent on insulting those they didn't agree with, rather than spreading goodwill. The use of old testament quotations would be a good example of how much the author is willing to stretch to make the points.
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Bill Fox
Romans 13 GOD’S WORD Translation (GW) Obey the Government 13 Every person should obey the government in power. No government would exist if it hadn’t been established by God. The governments which exist have been put in place by God. 2 Therefore, whoever resists the government opposes what God has established. Those who resist will bring punishment on themselves. 3 People who do what is right don’t have to be afraid of the government. But people who do what is wrong should be afraid of it. Would you like to live without being afraid of the government? Do what is right, and it will praise you. 4 The government is God’s servant working for your good. But if you do what is wrong, you should be afraid. The government has the right to carry out the death sentence. It is God’s servant, an avenger to execute God’s anger on anyone who does what is wrong. 5 Therefore, it is necessary for you to obey, not only because you’re afraid of God’s anger but also because of your own conscience. 6 That is also why you pay your taxes. People in the government are God’s servants while they do the work he has given them. 7 Pay everyone whatever you owe them. If you owe taxes, pay them. If you owe tolls, pay them. If you owe someone respect, respect that person. If you owe someone honor, honor that person.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
oldbill: "Romans 13 GOD’S WORD Translation (GW) Obey the Government" All good and well for those who accept Paul, the self-proclaimed apostle, as authoritative. I don't along with billions of other people and millions in the U.S.A. Your bible is NOT the final authority!
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Eric
Please see Romans 13:1-7 before saying that the caravan is doing what is right. I believe in helping those who need it but those who enter illegally, or are helped by various churches to enter illegally and then sequestered from the enforcement of the laws they have broken have violated the laws of this nation which we are obligated to uphold to the best of our ability. There are mechanisms to enter this country legally, they may be slow but todays world requires further scrutiny of some to protect all the citizens of this nation. And before you say that not all of them are bad people with ill intent, please tell me how you tell the difference. They do not carry signs regarding their intents and many will lie to gain entry. I understand the want to come to this country, it is one of the best nations in the world, regardless of what some people say.
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JEFF L BROWN
OK I'm only going to explain this once. Americans are not against immigration, just illegal immigration! But listen history has told us and shown us that cultures clash. We are a colonized nation who is guilty of horrific things just as every other culture.
But at the end of the day we are one of the most sevigen nations in the world. YES the west is the best! Not just my opinion. Explain to me why everyone wants to come to such a racist, bigoted country with outrageous debt like ours?? All this migration has allot to do with the UN by the way. There is a mass self segregation going on within this country as well which is natural right? I thought this was wrong for people to do in america!
But why is it happening among all the different cultures throughout this great diverse country?? This should be common sense for people to understand. Not sure how many people know about the human trafficking that goes on at our boarder and abroad. I'm from MI, the 2nd biggest human trafficking state in the country! So this is an issue for me personally. Our children are at risk on so many fronts. We need to get smart real fast.I'm afraid because of the lack of information despite having the internet and our misleading media forcing their talking points on us. We are so very self absorbed in our life and social networks are NOT HELPING.
Despite your race and your belief in religion or lack there of we need to start to have a merit base immigration policies at the end of the day. We have our own problems that need to be fixed asap for everyone's sake, that means the whole world. Remember this, if america fails everyone fails!
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Rik Venerable
Whether they are all, partially or none are seeking asylum really doesn’t matter. What matters is why and how they are attempting to break the laws of any country.
This country is made up of laws that all are required to abide by. Each have and have had the opportunity to legally and properly enter a country they are not citizens of, nor have documentation to do so.
They should and will be dealt with accordingly to the laws of this country if they continue their intentions of illegally entering it.
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john shephard
Yes, unfortunately the article is both racist and deceptive. I always get the sense the ULC folks who put out these things are trying to be provocative rather than profound. An honest and intelligent inquiry into this issue would have stated clearly the topic is ILLEGAL immigration, and if they want to discuss it from the perspective of race, which seems very shallow, as no one one race of people is likely to prefer illegal actions over legal ones, they should include the perspective of indians, asians, blacks, hispanic and europeans, just for starters. Most of us understand it is currently fashionable among liberals to adopt racist attitudes towards whites, as well as christians, so it is easily dismissed, and, with a little conscious effort, also forgiven as the pure twaddle it is. Too bad we even need to waste space on it. Such is the lumbering evolution of consciousness of the race, meaning the real race, the human race, not the superficial divisions made on the basis of color. Let us have faith the liberals will get it sooner or later, simply because as it is the truth, the conclusion is inevitably unavoidable. We're all sisters and brothers, the children of God, living in a worldwide community in which it is preferable, ideal and necessary to abide by laws so as to function well, lovingly and respectfully together. If something is not desirable to be illegal, then we simply move as a group, through the legal procedure of voting, to make it legal.. It is not helpful to pretend the issue under discussion is legal when it is not, nor to demonize a race in the service of perpetuating that pretense..But thanks for the newsletter. It does give us a format in which to try to work these things out.
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Don Linville
Wow, sounds like we are doomed to split into factions. Perhaps we should “stick to fishing” from now on. I have read from a few of the religious writings and noted that politics seems to sneak in to most, but good old Faith, Hope, and Love are the golden strands that bind. Good luck with the divisiveness. I’m goin fishing. Karatedon (not to be confused with the Don in the comments or anyone using Donald).
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Ronald Hestand
Let us approach this topic logically. Or not. When it comes to the evangelicals along with the Catholics, they live in the dark ages. They pick and choose biblical passages that suit their needs. Lest we not forget that the churches used scripture to justify the existence of the power of kings not to mention slavery. The Jesus I know taught love, kindness and openness. He treated everyone as equal. He knew no artificial boundaries. I don't think he would approve of the treatment and vilification of the migrants seeking asylum. Rev. Dr. Ron Hestand, RScP
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Terry Abruzzese
I found this article completely and typical misleading. Evangelicals are NOT against immigration! Period, they as most Americans are against ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION! There is a distinction between the two.
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Bob
We humans seem to have a strong tendency to distrust those different than ourselves along racial, ethnic and religious lines. Look at how people around the world fight to group themselves along such lines. Many people in Iraq see themselves more as Sunnis and Shiites and Kurds than they do Iraqi's (I think you see this desire for such separation along religious and ethnic lines very strong in the Middle East). When the former Soviet Union broke up, people wanted to redefine borders along ethnic lines (we are Serbians and Croats, not Yugoslavians). The United States is one of the greatest of melting pots, but I think even we are demonstrating a lot of mistrust against non-Christians (particularly Muslims) and non-white persons. I think it is a very strong tendency that has to be overcome to be truly inclusive, tolerant and I would say Christian. When the President takes the worst attributes of some members of a group and applies it to all members of such a group it makes acceptance even more difficult. Wanting to keep all Muslims out of the country, referring to Mexican illegal aliens as murderers and rapists, referencing Third World countries as "shitholes", etc. reinforces the notion that these people, as a whole, are different enough as to be feared. The nationalist movement gaining momentum around the world is an attempt to keep our national identities as they are currently constructed (or even go back to the good old days when we were even more uniform in our makeup). I do not believe this to be consistent with Christian principles. I believe we are taking a step backwards, but I see it as a slight pause; we'll take a breath and then move forward again. The US will continue to lead the way.
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T.P.C.
There's a new concept today, it's called Political Bigotry, and it's a severe problem in our country. Feel free to use that phrase. The HATRED on BOTH sides needs to stop. The AFFILIATION on BOTH sides needs to stop. The MAL-REPORTING of the media on BOTH sides needs to stop. This article promotes divisiveness and is disgusting and misrepresents the data collected in the survey. Real progress in this country involves coming together, losing our political party "tribes", and stopping this ridiculous "them vs us" mentality that's proving modern humans are not that far off from our Neanderthal relatives.
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LN
Preach! <3
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James
Proclaim these facts loudly!
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
T.R.C. Nothing like sitting on the fence. Your self-righteous rant is just that.
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Lori
So true!
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LN
My husband is an immigrant. We went through proper channels and he came here LEGALLY. There are plenty of immigrants who do the right thing and follow the laws of this country. Illegal immigration IS a big problem. Politicians want to give their children free education, while kids here legally must do without those college handouts. Illegal immigrants can be hired for a fraction of the cost, with no benefits and be abused at work without recourse, illegal immigrants find themselves and their children trafficked and sold into slavery, or outright murdered. There is nothing "dreamy" about someone who is breaking the law to exploit the generosity of our country and acting as though their children are deserving of handouts and are somehow heroic for having parasitically leeched off of taxpayer money that now is not there for legal residents and citizens. They cry when they get caught and deported to a country they can't even speak the language of because THEIR parents failed to prepare them for that eventuality. They blame the stress of living in fear of being caught on the legal residents and citizens, when it is their own doing that put them into that situation. Our district is a pretty well off one and each year more and more of the students are from LEGAL immigrant families here on work visas or permanent resident visas. They and their parents are increasing the immigrant population here and there are more and more ethnic restaurants, more ethnic giant supermarkets. Their children play happily with our children and other neighborhood children. They aren't always familiar with our customs, but that's ok. They also have interesting customs that they are happy to share with us. We see more advertisements lately for holidays like Holi and Diwali, and Ramadan than we ever have seen before. We don't mind a bit of it. What we do mind are people who lie, cheat and steal. People who defraud us of funds that are needed for infrastructure upgrades, people who use fake ID's, who don't have car insurance, who didn't pass any kind of driver's test to see if they were even safe to be on the road. People who have no respect for this country or anyone in it. People who leave a trail of dog feces in their wake because they don't care. It isn't their country, they're just here to use it and move on. People who dishonestly and illegally hand in voter registration forms so they can perpetuate their law-breaking ways. How is any of that racist or limited to a specific race, gender or religion? When I lived in my husband's country, I immigrated there LEGALLY. It was inconvenient and I didn't speak the language. The process to immigrate there is even more strict than it is here, but that's what I went through to do it LEGALLY. I got my driver's license there, and even though I passed, they made me take it twice more because their attitude was that they couldn't believe a white person, especially a woman, could pass it on the first try, when some of their own citizens couldn't manage that. I was informed that even when I got my permanent resident card there, that I must carry it with me at all times and if I was caught without it, I would be jailed and my husband and I interrogated and fined for my being without it outside our home. I was told that I could either create my own business teaching English, or be jobless because they strictly limited the types of jobs that foreigners could apply for. We still followed the law and did things LEGALLY, even though I thought all that racist, genderist, nationalist nonsense was a load of crap. That was the country I was in and if I was going to be there, I would be respecting its laws. Even when legally, I didn't count as his wife, because foreigners weren't allowed to be officially married to their citizens. I was a side note on his family register under "Miscellaneous", that he had a foreign wife. I heard of other foreign wives with kids whose husbands were sent matchmaking catalogues because the government felt that "motherless" homes were neglectful of children, because the government refused to acknowledge those children's mother as even existing. When I went to a hospital, I was given a placebo instead of an antibiotic, because doctors in that country felt that foreigners were a lower species and not actually human like they were, so didn't deserve actual medicine. I almost died and hung on the brink of death for over a decade afterwards because of the damage done to me. I still followed the law. And when my husband saw what had been done to me, he agreed to immigrate LEGALLY to my country where it has not been easy for him either, although much better than what I went through in his country. My husband and I both have respect for the difficulties that LEGAL immigrants of whatever race, gender, sexuality or religion, have by living in a land other than their homeland, but it is not fair and it is not right that some people think they can just break laws with no repercussions.
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James
Heavy read, thank you.
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Robert D Kaufmann
Very interesting and informative. What country was your husband from. I missed it.
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Steven
A little surprised that something this trashy was posted on this website. Jesus would tell the illegals to go back and fix their own countries. You don't have a place to flee when you overrun a nation, and thus, destroy it. America has plenty of legal immigration happening, there isn't a need for an invasion of people coming over to break the law.
It's not because they need the food, or the money. As you can SEE with your own eyes, a lot of the people in the caravan are overweight. They're fat. Not starving. They're fat.
They WANT the extra money they get from the currency difference between the US and their home country. They send the money back. That dishwasher you feel sorry for at Chilis owns several properties in Columbia. That guy that broke his way in your country, he's cheating on his wife and kids that are back home. Also, guess what? That guy just abandoned his children, and thus, his family.
Do you really want to promote and support that bad behavior?
Don't be fooled by this article, it's complete trash.
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Reverend Krystina S.
Steven, Bigot much????? Jesus would NOT tell "illegals" to "go bak and fix their own countries." You have not read the Bible, obviously. He would ask US to help these people, and also to help improve their own country so it is livable. There is NO "invasion." Conflate much???? The people may have a different body type, shorter and different weight proportion. They might be eating poorly, like the poor in the U.S. who are food insecure, and cannot afford healthy food. Bigot much???? You are cruel and invent stories to jinn up some negative images of these people, and that we would "promote and support that bad behavior" if we are not vehemently against refugees and immigrants fleeing difficulties. WHERE is your Humanity, that would see barefoot mothers carrying their babies as some sort of "threat"????? You are a RACIST and INHUMANE and CRUEL and IGNORANT. My own mother was a refugee after WW II. Your beliefs disgust me.
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Gary Minnis
So may we give them your address so you can take care of them?
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Rev. Burns
I think if they are a you say he would send them into the desert for 40 years. IJS
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
Steven: Your post is a piece of crap not the article.. You spout right-wing, extremist propaganda GOP Jesus is who you follow. https://youtu.be/SZ2L-R8NgrA
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John Owens
In the Torah, those of other nationalities who lived in Israel were to abide by the same laws as the native-born Israelites. They were to be protected and judged by those same laws. They were not to get EBT cards, medicare and medicaid, subsidized housing, free legal services, and earned income tax credit on money they never paid in.
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Don
Um, your holy book says quite the opposite:
John 3:17 (the verse AFTER the one you love to quote) But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him?
'For there will never cease to be poor in the land. Therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in your land.’
Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will repay him for his deed.
Whoever oppresses a poor man insults his Maker, but he who is generous to the needy honors him.
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John Owens
A) I do not have a holy book. B)You have never seen me quote John 3:16, so stop inventing things. You have mistaken me for someone else. C) All you are saying about poor people has nothing to do with setting them up above the need to work or abide by the laws. D) Lev 24:22 Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God. Num 15:16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you. Num 15:29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.
E) You do not believe scripture, therefore you cannot know scripture well enough to try to use it. You would be better off staying away from it.
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Don
First, you claim you have no holy book, and further claim I am mistaking you for someone else. Then you quote said holy book and use the SAME EXCUSE VERBATIM that the other John Owens uses --- and you make the EXACT SAME assumptions.
You've been exposed, two-faced weasel. Scamper off now.
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John Owens
I did not say I do not have a holy book. I said it is not MY book. Also, I have NEVER quoted John 3:16 on ULC blogs. Not ever. Not anyone named John Owens on here, therefore YOU are inventing things, you moron. Also, I showed YOU, that I know what I am talking about, when it comes to scripture and YOU do not.
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John Owens
I meant the book is not MY holy book.
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Don
"You do not believe scripture, therefore you cannot know scripture well enough"
Funny how both commenters on this site named John Owens use this exact phrase. Do you also believe that a person must believe in The Lord of the Rings to know it well? Or are you now realizing how silly your position is?
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Don
Hey John, got any more excuses for ignoring what Jesus said and dumping on the poor? I notice you got real quiet when I exposed your duplicity...
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John Owens
Donny, show me where I dumped on the poor.
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John Owens
Couldn't find it, huh? See, you invent things, or read them INTO what I say, based on your own prejudice. I guess everybody does that.
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Don
"show me where I dumped on the poor"
"They were not to get EBT cards, medicare and medicaid, subsidized housing, free legal services, and earned income tax credit on money they never paid in"
You are really making yourself look the fool. Again.
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John Owens
I said NOTHING critical of the poor. It is shameful that you say that I did. There is not ONE derogatory word there, regarding the POOR.
Now, YOU are the fool AGAIN.
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Don
I didn't say you used derogatory language, you sleazy two-faced snake.
"you invent things, or read them INTO what I say" <---this describes YOU more than anyone else on this page. Your lies are pathetic and easily exposed.
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John Owens
You just lied. You said I "dumped" on the poor. That would be using derogatory language regarding them, you sleazy, two-faced snake.
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John Owens
I notice you cannot show where I dumped on the poor. I notice both of us get real quiet when WE ARE NOT HERE, Donny!
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John Owens
Oh, also, Donny, for some reason, it takes a very long time for MY posts to show up. I don't know why, nor care, but I do other things besides sit here and argue.
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Don
"I did not say I do not have a holy book."
John Owens
November 6, 2018 at 7:53 am A) I do not have a holy book.Another lie exposed...that makes what, six now just on this page? If you're going to lie like this, at least don't post the evidence proving you are a sleazy liar.
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John Owens
I corrected that you spineless twit.
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John Owens
And there were no lies, only two mistakes.
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John Owens
White evangelicals are not opposed to immigration. They are opposed to insane immigration, as is any sane person.
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Don
"any sane person" "evangelicals" John, John, John....
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John Owens
I never mentioned "evangelicals". Don't know why you keep reading things into my writings, unless your imagination runs wild.
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John Owens
Like when you said I dumped on the poor. I never did any such thing. What is WRONG with you and so many others on here. You read more INTO what someone writes than they actually write.
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Don
"You read more INTO what someone writes"
No, I just read (and then re-post) your words verbatim. VERBATIM. Look it up if you're still confused. Also, stop lying.
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John Owens
okay, copy VERBATIM where I mentioned evangelicals, you twit, and stop lying yourself.
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John Owens
That was quoting the author, DONNY. I did use that term, because the author did. You said it as if you think "white evangelicals" are not sane, and as the evangelical part was my idea. The author is the one who used the term, trying to push the myth of the vast right-wing white conspiracy.. White evangelicals are not hurting people.
So show me where I "dumped" on the poor, Donny. I never did dump on the poor. Show it to me.
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Don
“I never mentioned “evangelicals".”
"Yes, I did say that"
It's so cute how your answers change every time one of your lies gets exposed.
Keep digging that hole!
On a side note - Why are the deceitful trolls on this page almost always Christians? Shouldn't it be the other way around?
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John Owens
And, I never said anything derogatory about the poor.
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Don
"I never mentioned “evangelicals”."
"White evangelicals are not opposed to immigration."
You never mentioned WHAT again? Your own words exposed your lie. Sorry about that.
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John Owens
That was a rebuttal to the title of the entire article, and the point was that the title of the article is, for all intents and purposes, a lie. Yes, I did say that. Unlike you, I will admit I made a mistake.
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Rev. Brien
Wow, you are all correct. It is so clear now. These are not people trying to get a better life, they are not people that have stated they WILL turn thenselve over to ICE because they wish asylum, they are not mothers, fathers, children. They are an evil caravan that we need the UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES to protect us form. Shoot them down I say, they are evil. Build that wall, make it out of razor wire if need be.
Ok, the above statement represents MOST of the comments that I have read here. YOU SELF APPOINTED PATRIOTS MAKE ME SICK. Please do not decide anything for me, nor the country that I hold so dear. If you find the above statement offensive, GOOD. It is offensive. So are most of the statements I have read here today. Who the hell made you judge? This country is made up of ALL PEOPLE. That is what makes it strong. If you do not like it, why don't YOU get the hell out?
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Pastor Dsve
Oh oh, an other person you pissed off today. Better watch that. Pissed off people have proven to be no one you want to meet up with on a dark street. Why can't we just all play nice on here? Be friends.
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Lionheart
You intrigue me Brien. What is your philosophy then regarding the thousands hoping to be given an open gate into the United States? Are you for totally open borders to let anyone in without checking their background?
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Rev. Brien
Lionheart I agree that there needs a lot of work to be done on immigration. I do not think any of that work is being done now. Sending troops to our border with Mexico. Why? That's not work that's just stuffing the border with guns. We have so many caring intelligent people in this country why can't we find some of those people to work on this issue? We need to find balance, not close ourselves from the world.
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John Owens
I just love how unbiased the article is...not.
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Dr. Mom
All religious dogma seeks to separate and the only way to free the mind and heart is to step beyond dogma to the underlying principle proclaimed by all religion that love is the only power that matters - love is god - anything else is just argueing over meaningless details.
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Lea Weisenbach
Found it...
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
Lea. Did you find your "post" stuck up your own butthole, perhaps?
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Lea Weisenbach
Where is my post!!!!
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Lea Weisenbach
I don't follow the bible because it was written by the winners and demonize others. And Christians always cherry pick to what benifits them..When it comes to politics..I was not happy with both sides..One side thinks its a Christian country and what to make it all Christian and the he'll with every one else. The other side want to make us socialist..plus I definitely do not want Crooked Hillary..The big give away that i don't Beleive in.
Thats way I voted for voted for Trump.
Yes..we are all immigrants..But your not a country if you dont have laws..In first born and my family came in the right way. This caravan is norhing but a take over and it has to be stopped. I feel for the people because they got played with this game. The immigration laws have to be changed and in tired of the left hate as much as I tired of the christian right hate...both are just selfish people.
Because of the both sides game drastic measures have to happen..There maybe some deaths..and its sad..But I'm sure there are some dead bodies in Mexico and they just dont give a dam.. My point of view..sorry for the rant..The the christian right are nothing more than a selfish hate group.
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Lea Weisenbach
Sorry for the missed spelled/or changed words..my phone picked and I did not catch it.
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Pastor Xal
You voted for Trump because you didn't want "crooked" Hillary? Seriously, turn off Fox Media Circus & educate yourself with other actual NEWS sources. Trump doesn't pay many of his sub-contractors the contracted agreed upon price. His lawyers invite those middle-class, average joe buisness owners to take the Trump machine to court over the difference. You voted for a liar and a crook. Not "illegals" are the chosen group to hate? wow.
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Lea Weisenbach
Pastor Xal..Put a stick you know where.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
Lea has drunk the Trump fear/hate kool-aid about those "invading hordes" in the caravan.
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Gary Minnis
Sounds like you should turn off CNN or MSN and actually do a little research yourself. There was a reason that most democratic candidates have distanced themselves from the Clintons.
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Pastor Xal
btw Why does the U.S. Census continue to perpetuate division? Why is there no AMERICAN choice on the census?? curious...
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torro
white evangelists or whatever you choose to call yourselves, remember that you are the immigrants, the country belong to the native indians, so if you and a certain jackass do not like it, you are free to leave
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Don
The descendants of the Amerind Tribes (what you call “native” Americans) migrated here 4500-6000 years ago. We are ALL immigrants.
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John Owens
This is what I have argued before. It is wrong to refer to one race as native American, since they came here from else where like the rest of us. "Native" just refers to where one was born, not to their race. I have asked how they could be any more native than the rest of us, unless they sprang up spontaneously from buffalo dung or mushrooms.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
In keeping with today's U.S. spirit of immigration/refugees/asylum-seekers I have removed all Jews, Arabs, Blacks, Immigrants, and Refugees from my Nativity Scene. All that is left is sheep led by a jackass. Sounds about right.
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Gary Hynous
There are now about 37 million legal immigrants in the United States.to say nothing of illegal immigrants living here. That's about 10% or so of the total population.of our country. We are now literally being overrun with new immigrants which is going to change our demographics and in time our voting preferences. Many of these people are poor, uneducated and unfamiliar with our way of life and can contribute little if anything of value to our country. They will probably end up milking the welfare system.There is no practical way to vet these people although, unlike our President, I don't believe their numbers are overrun with criminals.This influx of people has to be limited or stopped completely. How we can do this is a serious problem. Having armed military at our border is going to get someone shot. If they're coming through Mexico, my state, California, will be affected the most. I am not in favor of violence o solve this problem but how to stop it is a serious problem. Any Ideas? .
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
In keeping with the new spirit of the U.S.A. I have removed all the Jews, Arabs, Africans and Immigrants from my Nativity scene. Nothing but sheep left, led by a jackass. Sounds about right.
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Dragon Priest
White evangelicals=republicans are the biggest threat this nation has faced. Their time has come up and are scared ... white with fear of losing their control. They can slow it down but can't stop it.
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power to the people
I am neither republitarded or democrapped, but the left wing kooks are just as bad as the right wingy loons. All bad for the country.
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Lea Weisenbach
Your 100% right
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Gary Minnis
That's probably the most racist thing I've read here today.
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Past Security Enforcement Loss Prevention Officer
See, some one else out there has a brain. People, the key word is LEGAL. IF they wanna stay here then do it the right way.
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Past Security Enforcement Loss Prevention Officer
The United States is too fast to just GIVE to anyone who comes here. Welfare Food Stamps help them open a quicky mart. It's time to stop the free ride.
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power to the people
Where do you get that from? I was at wart mart grocery shopping today- all fat white people with food stamps. I didn't see ANY "immigrants" shopping. Pretty sure none of those folks own a quicky mart.
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Lea Weisenbach
That's what we all did..some what..I'm the first generation.
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Alicia
Stop calling them immigrants. This "caravan" wants to enter the US illegally. They are not immigrants...they will be illegal aliens if or when they enter the US. Anyone who doesn't see a problem here should open their doors to these people.
The US welcomes immigrants...LEGAL immigrants. I dont see what people don't understand about this.
What's happening now is a paid mob looking to invade the US. Yes...paid and well supplied. I've seen the videos. Brand new clothes. Brand new backpacks. Plenty of food and cold water. 7,000 people don't spontaneously decide to walk thousands of miles.
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Barry
We're all Immigrants.Let them in as long as there legal.The extreemests Think this country is theirs.It's not.
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Dr. J Pace
Hmm, white evangelicals opposing immigration...hold on while I try to put on my surprised face..
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John Owens
They oppose invasion.
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Rev. Rene
All well and good, but the government of the day is rather tilting the field, would you not agree? I am a white male immigrant having chosen to come through the legal front door, many decades ago, and that took over a year then. But I was not fleeing a society killing my children, so I am not in a position to judge anybody today. Surely not all are in danger, and many will be "economic" refugees. And a few will be criminals, as in any group. But let's be reasonable about this, previous large groups have "petered out" to become manageable at the border, so.....................
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James
If they enter as you did, I welcome them with no qualms or quarrels. That is all I think matters, enter legally. By the way, a VERY belated welcome to America.
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Miranda Allison Young
Those "White Evangelicals" need to remember that their ancestors were immigrants. Unless they are full-blooded Native Americans, their parents, grandparents, etc., came to this country from somewhere else. Their philosophy is filled with errors.
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Don
"Unless they are full-blooded Native Americans"
The descendants of the Amerind Tribes (what you call "native" Americans) migrated here 4500-6000 years ago. We are ALL immigrants.
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Lionheart
Was that before, or after, the flood? :)
Just kidding. I know there wasn't one, but don't tell those others. They still think there was one.......seriously! I know it's hard to believe, but I'm not kidding!
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Lea Weisenbach
Even the American Indians Siberia...That just found out with DNA testing..We are all from someplace else.
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John Owens
I agree. I've been saying that for a long time, but I just keep catching grief from the New-Agers, because that is part of their shtick.
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Don
Lying is a SIN, John Owens! Or do you no longer believe in the Great Flood (and the inherent racism that comes with that belief) as you previously claimed?
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John Owens
If you believe lying is a sin, Donny, why don't you stop doing it so much? The Flood and immigration have nothing to do with racism. The immigration would just have occurred more recently than modern schools teach.
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John Owens
Donny, if you believe it to be a sin, perhaps you should stop accusing anyone of being a liar, when they have not lied.
A} the Flood has nothing to do with racism, since the family of Noah and his daughters-in-law would then be the progenitors of everyone else, which belief should actually end racism, if everyone shared it. B} the Flood has nothing to do with immigration, and only a moron would think it does.
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John Owens
I see your mistake here, Donny. I wasn't saying I didn't believe in the flood. i was saying the American Indians also immigrated here, agreeing with you. I have said it on other posts in the past, argued it with people. Curiously, your timeline of their travels would roughly correspond to the flood.
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Don
"the Flood has nothing to do with racism"
Tell that to the racist Christians who believe the Curse of Ham made his descendants dark skinned and slaves. Your ignorance is a shallow defense.
And your ignorance of Scripture is both funny and ironic.
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John Owens
Don, my knowledge of scripture is what informs ME that the flood has nothing to do with racism. Even the myth you cite, in itself, has nothing to do with the FLOOD. You think you know so f***ing much. You may actually be fairly intelligent, but your head is up your arse.
I will repeat: the Flood has nothing to do with racism. I can't help what myths the pagans who call themselves Christians believe. Try to be something besides a jackass.
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Don
"I will repeat: the Flood has nothing to do with racism"
Keep repeating a lie, it won't make it true.
"my knowledge of scripture" ...is severely lacking, based on your comment history.
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Don
"your head is up your arse"
Funny how all of the "completely different" John Owens on this site use the exact same infantile insults.
Keep digging that hole! Your lies are becoming legend.
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John Owens
Donny, it's amazing that even when we agree on something, you act like a total jackass and liar. Your toilet training must have been traumatic for you.
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John Owens
BTW, there is only one of me. No one is hiding from anyone.
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David
You commented in your story about Leviticus and the words “residing among you“. These people are not “residing amongst us”, they are trying to get in anyway that they can through illegal means. I have no problem with refugees coming in legally, but I have a huge problem with them bringing themselves in illegally. Not to mention the fact that America is “One nation under God” and we only have one God. Many of these nations want to bring in their religious doctrines and change America from following the one true God, Jesus Christ.
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Don
Correction for David Lay - We are "One Nation, Indivisible" --- religious zealots added "under God" in the 1950s. And we don't have "only one God" - whoever told you that was lying.
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Merry Christmas to All!!!
For all you freaking out over this - large % of Evangelicals -- are probably white - and are Americans - what the heck is wrong with that? And I am sorry - do you not lock up your churches / your homes / your cars - are aware of what is safe and not safe - and do what you can to keep your community and families safe ????
Don't be so ignorant !!! People are just being 'dumbed down' because of the fear of speaking reality - and their hearts of wanting to keep our country true to its history - for all who are truly AMERICANS!!
How the heck are we as a country will continue to serve not only our childrens needs and the lost - AND other countries who need it if we continue to just lower our resources and not manage it carefully????
Look at how many churches that have closed down because they were not careful or clear about what they can and cannot do -- sad sad cases -
Just PLEASE!!! STOP THE DECISIVE rhetoric!!!
We all know there are many gods Don - and if you are picking this fight - then you are definitely part of the problem here ...
STOP THE NOISE - SO UNNECESSARY!!!!
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Mitch
Nationalism is as divisive as racism. Borders are arbitrary, beliefs are just thoughts that we become attached to and consider inviolate. All men are brothers and have equal value. Patriotism is childish and leads to war which is murder justified by propaganda. Fear is not a healthy basis for faith and creates confusion as it churns the mind and gets weak minded people overly excited.
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Merry Christmas to All!!!
Repeat that to your children / church family when you have no way to protect them from EVIL - cause you were too blind & stupid to see how it infiltrated your HOME!!!!
Its not about FEAR - we welcome them- but only if they make a choice to come wanting and needing and desiring to be helped and to support the cause of loving our fellow workers and being a part of a bigger family --- without a threat -- gosh Mitch - you surely sound like a blind dog - you can't lead the blind if you are blind yourself...
Nothing wrong for being a patriot ! Nothing wrong for wanting to have a country that is found on laws - the 10 commandments - what are those - break em and you get into heaven - they don't mean anything ? again - stupid is / stupid does -
Wake Up People!!! You cannot help others if you cannot help yourself !!!
In the plane- put your mask on first before you help others - why ? you can't help others if YOU ARE DEAD!!!!
Maybe not today / maybe not tomorrow - but keep living and doing what you doing --- EVIL WILL NOT BEND !!!
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John Owens
Mitch, do you have locks on your home and automobile? Do you pick and choose who enters them? Same principle, larger scale. Not complicated.
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Don
Such anger and hate in your comments. Do you consider yourself a Christian?
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BethKCZ
Seeking asylum is a legal way to enter the country.
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Don
Beth, they cannot seek asylum, as they were offered asylum twice by the president of Mexico, and refused it. Under International Law they are no longer asylum seekers.
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Lea Weisenbach
Don..very true..They want to come to America for free stuff.
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caz
Free stuff? Do you mean health care?
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John Owens
Don is correct here.
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Shirley Shea
Very very few are actually seeking asylum. They have been given verbiage to use which gets them in until a hearing, in hopes that they can disappear into the country and not be found. This is not a "legal" way in. They want in because they see the US as their path to freedom, and as our obligation to care for them. Let them enter....legally. I say hire more judges and hear their please at the border. Turn them away immediately if asylum is not in order. The caravan has been offered asylum twice now and turned it down.
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Bill Sprague
Hi Don,
Would you provide a link or reference source indicating International Law supports your assertion?
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Don
Hi Bill, took me 3 minutes to find the Asylum law online. Here's a snippet with the information that pertains to my assertion:
There are a number of ways that an applicant’s credibility may be damaged, for example, if they have given inaccurate or inconsistent information. Case owners must also take the applicant’s behaviour into account. For example, their claim may be harmed if they delayed claiming asylum without good reason, or if they have been convicted of a criminal offence such as using false travel documentation, or if they did not claim asylum in the first safe country they reached after leaving their own country (known as a ‘safe third country’).
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The Doctor
Hey Don you just proved yourself wrong then, Mexico does not qualify as a safe country for them. Mexico itself is known to practice genocidal attacks on rural peoples living in traditional ways. Mexico as a government pretty much still practices the traditions of the spanish conquistadors that the wealthy elite of mexico prefer to view as their ancestors and those of more native tribal blood are heavily persecuted.
This is much the same father south and a big reason why they dont stop till they reach the U.S.
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Bill Sprague
Thank you for replying, Don. Unfortunately, your text did not include a ink to the source, so I could not verify the claim. Personally, I have spent about an hour scanning through the "1951 Convention relating to the Status of Refugees" and the "1967 Optional Protocol relating to the Status of Refugees" and neither contain a provision stating that asylum seekers must apply for asylum at the "first" safe country they reach.
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The Doctor
Entirely untrue Don but keep spouting your faux line like its true, only those already as ignorant as you will care.
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Don
Yes, just say it's wrong and spew insults. Don't use evidence or any logical thought processes.
Go crawl back under your baseboard, maggot.
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Lionheart
Don't Democrats need to seek asylum? I just looked up the definition and it said "An institution offering shelter and support to people who are mentally ill" <----- Hey, don't blame me, I'm just the dictionary messenger. :)
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John Owens
Indubitably.
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James
I think that about most politicians in general but on the caravan issue i have to agree about the Democrats.
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Pastor Xal
One God has many names. Religions are organized groups that worship God in similar fashion. Jesus, is the son of God according to Biblical New Testament. However, as humans, we are all Children of God. Not all Americans "follow" Jesus. Narrow minded bigots limit the power of Spirituality by insisting there's only one way. There are many different ways to do good works. Start by listening.
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power to the people
GREAT post.
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Lionheart
Yes, start by listening, which is the beginning of all education. Study reason, study archaeology, biology, genetics, and all the sciences to improve your education. Don’t let any uneducated indoctrination, especially childhood parental indoctrination, affect your judgement.
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John Owens
Yes, Lord knows, those evil parents cannot possibly know as much as we do, seeing they have only been around for twice or three times as long and done five times as much, nor could they have our best interests at heart.
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Alicia
David...you just contradicted yourself. You believe in 2 gods: God and Jesus. Do you realize that Jesus never claimed to be God?
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Gary Minnis
Thats not true. John 10:30
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Lori
U-NI-VER-SAL...David, why are you on this site? God belongs to all, not just Christians. You are part of the BIG problem. You Can worship your own way, but you need to realize that yours is not the only or right way. Until we all open our minds and accept this, there will continue to be hostility and division. It's time people like you see things in a less arrogant and selfish, MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE!, way.
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Dragon Priest
Lori, christianity as practiced in the USA is doomed. It will disappear within 100 years because it is FALSE!
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power to the people
revpaul- It will still be around looooong after you and I are gone.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
Power to the People: "‘Christian America’ dwindling, including white evangelicals, study shows" "...American evangelicals — once seemingly immune to the decline experienced by their Catholic and mainline Protestant neighbors — are losing numbers and losing them quickly.
Americans are also continuing to move away from organized religion altogether, as atheists, agnostics and those who say they do not identify with any particular religion — the group known as the “nones” — hold steady at about one-quarter (24 percent) of the population.
The study, “America’s Changing Religious Identity,” contacted 101,000 Americans in 50 states, and has an overall margin of error of plus or minus 0.4 percentage points. And while the survey spotlights transformations afoot in many religious groups, it also shows a seismic shift for a long-standing American religious powerhouse: white evangelicals.
https://religionnews.com/2017/09/06/embargoed-christian-america-dwindling-including-white-evangelicals-study-shows/
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Lea Weisenbach
All religions are false...God had no religion..Our point of view is difinily changing...for the better I may add.
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Lea Weisenbach
Spot on
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Lea Weisenbach
David Lay...You need to educate yourself..The bible is not the only book..
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Past Security Enforcement Loss Prevention Officer
so who do we let in, only people Trump likes?
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Lionheart
No, we let in those that qualify and meet the guidelines of legal immigration, just how it’s been for decades under many presidencies.
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James
Slow and solid clapping for your comment.
Get rid of Trump; It is not an issue of the immigrants, it is the intended illegal entry that is the issue. Having twice turned down the offer of asylum from the Mexican government they no longer qualify UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW as asylum seekers. Unless they intend to go through the legal vetting, health checks. naturalization classes, and assimilate into the American culture they are legally barred from entry, let alone citizenship by laws long established and on the books. The media spins things, this is not Trump voicing how he feels or thinks but voicing the laws of this land. I am not saying I believe Trump any more then I do any politician but in looking things up he has often stated he welcomes any and all immigrants that seek to come here legally. (Take it like any politician talking, with a half pound of salt.) Check emotions and political views at the door and look into the hard data, hard facts. Laws are hard points, beliefs are emotional or spiritual, and EVERY politician lies. By the way, modern 'news' from any source is not good for much more then a launching point for more looking into things for real facts.
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Rev. Hoagie
"White Evangelicals" eh? Nothing racist about that! BTW the history of America is NOT welcoming immigrants, it's quite the contrary pre 1952. Just because you don't remember it or your leftist teachers didn't teach you this does not mean it didn't exist. In fact many immigrants were specifically refused like Chinese and Mohammedans
.The Page Act of 1875 was the first immigration law which prohibited the entry of any immigrant deemed 'undesirable', specifically those from Asia. In 1882 came the self explanatory Chinese Exclusion Act which was not repealed until 1942.
A surge in immigration in the early 20th century prompted Congress to pass the Emergency Quota Act and the 1924 Immigration Act which aimed at restricting immigration from South and Eastern Europe and prohibited immigration from Asia entirely.
If any law defines who Americans are and confirms that they did not become the greatest nation on earth by a massive influx of third world migrants was the 1952 Immigration and Nationality Act. This Act organized all previous immigration laws and statutes into one body. It retained quota systems for nationalities and regions based on skills, moral character and potential for integration and assimilation.
The intention of the Act was not racial superiority or any other racist motive but to prevent the very degradation and destruction that the 'fundamental transformation' of America was designed to achieve and what we are currently witnessing at this moment in history.
The Act was sponsored by two Democrats, Senator Pat McCarran and Representative Francis Walter in the days when Congressmen from all parties were patriots first, who's main concern was the well being of America, not some perverted 19th century ideology.
Senator McCarran's defence of the Immigration and Nationality Act before the Senate in March 1953 is an eloquent description of just who Americans are and lays to rest the nation of immigrants spin so beloved of those who have committed themselves to destroying that shining city on a hill.
"I believe that this nation is the last hope of Western civilization and if this oasis of the world should be overrun, perverted, contaminated or destroyed, then the last flickering light of humanity will be extinguished. I take no issue with those who would praise the contributions which have been made to our society by people of many races, of varied creeds and colors, ...However we have in the United States today hard-core, indigestible blocs which have not become integrated into the American way of life, but which, on the contrary are its deadly enemies. Today, as never before, untold millions are storming our gates for admission and those gates are cracking under the strain. The solution of the problems of Europe and Asia will not come through a transplanting of those problems en masse to the United States. ... I do not intend to become prophetic, but if the enemies of this legislation succeed in riddling it to pieces, or in amending it beyond recognition, they will have contributed more to promote this nation's downfall than any other group since we have achieved our independence as a nation".
In conclusion, all the protections put in place by previous legislators to preserve American civilization and by extension its greatness and global leadership, were systematically dismantled by a treacherous political class from both parties beginning with the 1965 Immigration and Nationality Act sponsored by Senator Ted Kennedy.
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Don
Very strange that you condemn racism in your opening statement, then end with defending a nasty, immoral, vile racist scumbag at the end. You DID know about McCarran’s blatant racist anti-Semitism, right? The state of Nevada is working to get his hateful racist name removed from the many monuments where it resides.
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Rev. RJ Levesque, Jr.
And see there lies the problem Don. 1. A culture will never learn from it's history if we try to erase it. 2. Not a single politician, religious figure, teacher, human being on this planet period has ever done everything perfectly correct. Not to mention what we find correct and moral today we may feel exactly the opposite tomorrow. We are fallible humans, and we are still very young in our growth even though we like to think differently.
We need to stop judging people from their actions in the past and learn from what we see and hear, then move forward. It used to be acceptable to put your infant children in a window cage hanging outside several stories above the ground. It was even medically recommended for awhile. Can you even imagine putting your child in a metal cage, attached to the outside of an apartment building window at all today? OF course not! However, years ago this was perfectly acceptable, moral, and medically recommended.
We are all still learning, and our history both good and bad is our schoolbook. We need to treat it that way!
ALSO: Sick of everyone being so hateful over politics these days. You can be passionate about something without being hateful, hurtful, and obnoxious. I NEVER remember things being so ugly over politics when I was younger. It's not like I wasn't aware of politics either, I grew up in a military family and a family of patriots who served generation after generation, mme included. Our country never used to go so nuts over politics before! AND WE SEE IT EVERYWHERE ALL THE TIME!!! Oh my goodness I am so sick of it, truly I am.
and...Rev. Hoagie is absolutely correct. We weren't always as welcoming. We took this land to begin with, then we were pretty obnoxious as a people about immigrants for many years. It wasn't until much later that people opened their eyes to the fact that all cultures of the world have something to contribute. And Yes Don, it is true we had many great people in history and many bad people..and the bad ones didn't always do all bad, and the good ones didn't always do all good. Again...we are only children of the universe still learning from our mistakes. AND the truth of the entire matter is the majority of Americans (myself firmly included!) have absolutely NO problem with immigration when done LEGALLY! A mass exodus of people just rushing our borders will do nothing but destroy exactly that which they seek.
If you have the only swimming hole in the area with a large population, at some point you have to realize the common sense fact that in order to keep this swimming hole nice for everyone like it is presently, there has to be rules and regulations. There has to be order...even the Christian Bible teaches us how chaos brings negative outcomes as do many other religious books, writings, and scripture. It's just all common sense...
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Edward Bouissey
Very well said. Thank you.
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James
Well written and well said. Only problem I see with any of the information is in the closing, look even at just the comments here and it is sadly evident that in todays America sense is no long common.
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James
Yes, as Don said, McCarran by today's standards (far different then those of his time by the way Don) was a racist but the main body of the post just supports that McCarran and those before him until the 1960's were America first, then political party second. Also that America the melting pot is about as mythical as the pale white Jesus. Beliefs are a powerful thing and correct for faith but politics and laws are hard data subjects and need to be looked at through eyes focused that way.
My take on the immigrant caravan, or any immigrant, is if they apply legally and are properly vetted and work to assimilate into American culture I welcome. Violate any of those points and I say no.
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Don
"today’s standards (far different then those of his time by the way Don)"
That's the excuse racists and sexists use. Let's use another example - Thomas Jefferson - the standards of his day were FAR different than anything from the last century. And yet EVEN BACK THEN intelligent people knew better than to descend into mindless racist hate.
You'll need another excuse.
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Chris
Seems to me most so-called Christians today don't follow the bible much. They pick the bits they like and ignore the bits that are inconvenient to them. I don't see how you can consider yourself a true follower of Christ if you're going to ignore most of what he taught.
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Pastor Dsve
To most Christians it's just a title. They use the title to impress others but really have no idea what being Christian is all about.
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Lea Weisenbach
So right
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Norma Battes
Lea November 7, 2018 at 7:25 am " So right " Best posts I've read so far.
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Pastor Dsve
Thank you. I try hard.
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Brian
It saddens me and weighs on my heart that do many apply their ‘christian values’ so choosingly. I have seen this first hand so many times which is why i turned from the ‘mainstream’ religions around here. Lets not forget, Jesus was born in a middle eastern country but so many religious ‘leaders’ apply his words only to those of a set skin colour. Life is really simple when you look at what is right. Be kind.
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Travis Wilbur
((I'm gonna get lynched for this, but....))
Every Christian picks and chooses which parts of the Holy Bible that they will adhere to. The Bible contradicts itself too much to be the literal "Word of God".
((for the record, I don't really consider myself to be a real "christian", compared to modern christian belief))
TL;DR________________________________________________________ The way the Holy Bible was written and pieced together, people have no choice BUT to pick and choose the bits and pieces of the Bible worth adhering to. There are so many contradictions and inconsistencies in the Bible,that it is not possible for that book in its entirety to be the "Infallible Word of the Lord God Almighty". God would not contradict Himself so much and create confusion among his followers.
In the Old Testament..... "Thou Shalt not suffer a witch to live". Yet, Paganism and Wicca are on a rise in modern society. Not to mention, God actually commanded His prophet, Ezekiel (37), to perform necromancy. Two different accounts of Adam and Eve; the "woman" possibly being two separate women. Prostitutes were commanded to be stoned. We don't execute prostitutes, anymore. Men are commanded to execute rebellious children. Cain was commanded to go to another land and take a wife among the people there. Yet, Cain and Abel were the only children of the first man and woman that God created. The list goes on....
Technically, the Holy Bible is a collection of 66 individual books, written by 40 authors who interpreted events differently, over the course of ~4300 years, compiled together by a Council of [some]hundred clergymen, and translated into every language on the planet.
The key is not to think of the Holy Bible as God's actual Word, but as a collection of books that hint at what God may be like, or expect of his followers.
The Old Testament is a collection of ancient Hebiru (Hebrew) history, census, literature, and law that don't really apply to modern society, but merely set up the events in the New Testament.
The New Testament is a collection of stories of Yeshua's (Jesus) life and ministry, the founding of the early christian church, and the letters of a man who claimed to be one of Jesus' own Apostles (long after the fact). I actually think that Paul was an imposter who realized that he couldn't control the rising religion by persecuting it, but by controling the belief system.
Yeshua (Jesus) couldn't care less about politics. If anything, he seemed to have a libertarian-like political view; voluntary morality, passive-aggressive approach to tyranny, etc. He taught Compassion, Kindness, Generosity, and Acceptance. Jesus hangout with prostitutes and tax collectors (glorified thieves). Jesus taught spiritual salvation through Behavior, as opposed to Belief. Jesus brought a meaning of Love to the reasoning behind traditional Hebiru Law. He taught a new, controversial, viewpoint. Meanwhile, Paul taught traditionalism and organized religion. Paul taught adherence to traditional Jewish laws through mere Belief, with a subdued emphasis on Behavior. You gained salvation through a belief system that saves corrupt clergy and lifelong criminals, while condemning atheists and the ignorant. You gained salvation by being a member of Paul's elite club and living how HE interpreted Jesus' death and ressurrection.
Yes, I pick and choose parts of the Bible that are most relevant. Every Christian does (and HAS to), but I think modern Christians choose the wrong parts of the Bible to adhere to.
If I were to put my own Bible together, I would include..... The Ten Commandments Psalms Proverbs Song of Solomon Book of Mark Hebrews 2 Corinthians 13 (Paul not likely to have written 2 Cor.) 1 & 2 Peter James 1, 2, & 3 John Book of Thomas Book of Mary Magdelene Jude
The Old Testament is largely irrelevant to modern life, and Genesis is contestable as an eyewitness account. Mark's book is the "most" accurate account of Jesus' life and teachings, as the other 3 gospels are ellaborations on this. Jesus' life, teachings and ministry are the most important part of the Bible. What He had to say, and what He did, were vastly more important than even his death. Paul is an imposter, teaching the opposite of Jesus' ministry, and I reject his letters. Read his "conversion". Anything seem odd to you? A man can pretend to be blinded, or to hear things others don't. But, why would Jesus manifest his voice, but not his physical appearance to a bystander? Peter, James, John, and Jude all personally knew Jesus, so who knows Jesus better than someone who was actually with him. And the Book of Revelation is really only useful as a Fear/Reward tactic.
Call me a "heretic", I suppose.
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john shephard
That was really good, thanks; more thoughtful than anything i've ever seen in this newsletter by any reader or writer from the ULC.
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Reverend Krystina S.
Wonderful, thoughtful comment, Travis. I believe that Jesus would be a "Social Welfare" ideologue. This is NOT like the Libertarians, who are "take care of yourself" people. Jesus, over and over again, Commanded us to Love One Another and to take ACTION to Care for One Another. This is more like a social welfare country, think Scandinavia, with Health Care, Food, Housing, Education for ALL. With great concern for our Earth and Environment, which means regulations. To demonstrate great caring for those in other places, other peoples, no matter where or who they are.THAT is what he preached and what he lived.
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Rick Williams
Thanks for a Birdseye view on an empty field that produces nothing of any value. You can teach and follow a different Jesus all you want to but in the end you will regret it.
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Dr Griffith
Only according to you. You are unable to accept that people can be different than you and still be good people. You need to climb out of your closet and try to meet different people and have discussions with them about what they believe and why. It would be enlightening for you if you were able to open your mind.
If God is so great and amazing why does he need all this "help" to spread his word?
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Don
"in the end you will regret it"
Rick, kindly take your cowardly superstitious threats and stick them where the sun doesn't shine. Thanks so much.
You vile, hateful Christians do more to turn good people away from Jesus than an army of heathens ever could.
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Edward Bouissey
Love one another and take action to care for one another, sounds great... Problem is it's the few taking care of the people who think they deserve a free ride and don't 'Care' for anyone but themselves. To many working to care for the to many able or lazy manipulators.
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Bill Sprague
Statistics do not support your assertion. There are significantly more people contributing to national and state welfare and assistance programs than those who are drawing from them. Secondly; Although there are some lazy, able-bodied people manipulating (cheating) the system, the majority of people making use of welfare and assistance programs have a true and genuine need.
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John Owens
...and the needy ones are democrats.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
John boy: "…and the needy ones are democrats." Not so Johnny. "Federal Anti-Poverty Programs Primarily Help the GOP's Base Republicans want to shrink government. But their core voters benefit from assistance, like the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, the most."
RONALD BROWNSTEIN FEB 16, 2017"Even as congressional Republicans mobilize for a new drive to retrench federal anti-poverty efforts, whites without a college degree—the cornerstone of the modern GOP electoral coalition—have emerged as principal beneficiaries of those programs, according to a study released Thursday morning.
Read the entire article here: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/02/gop-base-poverty-snap-social-security/516861/
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John Owens
Bobby, do you really think the people in poor neighborhoods, who overwhelmingly vote Democrat, are better-educated than the Republican base? How likely is that? I mean, really? You'll believe almost anything, if it suits what you already believe.
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John Owens
Just watch the news, whatever news you like, and documentaries. ANYTIME you see someone demanding assistance, they are Democrats. Not poor uneducated whites who vote Republican. Don't be an imbecile who just believes what the socialists tell you to believe.
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Norma Battes
Travis November 7, 2018 at 4:23 am " ((I’m gonna get lynched for this, but….)) " Crucified. On ULC you'd be crucified. Lynchings are Breitbart.
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John Owens
That would be hilarious if Breitbart was actually full of white supremists.
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The Doctor
If you adhere in any way to old testament then you are not a follower of Jesus the man christians deemed their messiah.
The Ten Commandments like all of the old testament were to be left behind with the coming of Jesus and the new covenant.
Now the christian equiv of the 7 sins is similar but without the story directing violence as the 10 commandments does.
Remember what moses and his followers did to those that worshipped a golden calf? yeah thats right they committed genocide. Wiped out an entire city state and its people because they did not worship the right god.
Christianity is 100% in its origins a pacifist religion. You very much are as a christian expected to die before even defending yourselves.
It was then perverted and corrupted beginning around 300 AD by the late age romans/ early catholic church ala the new holy roman empire.
But if your goal is to live as Jesus did and walk his path its very simple.Live with no want for yourself but the want to help others. Invite the stranger to eat with you and wash his feet. When struck turn and offer the other cheek and pray for them even as they feed you to the lions.
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John Owens
One day you are your own god. The next you are a disciple of Jesus. If you presume to teach the New Covenant, perhaps you should read it. Just a suggestion.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
Travis: I agree with much of what you say and would go even further in my analysis of the bible. The old testament is basically how the Hebrew people understood god at different times reported by many human authors and in no way inspired, infallible, or inerrant. It is a mixture of quasi-history and a lot of mythology. As you said well, it is full of contradictions.
The new testament is a mere human compilation of quasi-history of the life of Jesus, much of that is invented and packed around a kernel of truth about his existence and includes many "faith stories" that before being written down were oral tradition.
I am informed greatly by the scholarly work of Dr. Bart D. Ehrman who authored: Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why; Jesus, Interpreted: Revealing the Hidden Contradictions in the Bible and why we don't know about them; God's Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question-Why we suffer; Did Jesus Exist? The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth. Also Richard Rubenstein's book, When Jesus Became God: The Struggle to Define Christianity during the Last Days of Rome. Also, Stealing Jesus: How Fundamentalism Betrays Christianity by Bruce Bawer.
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Lionheart
If Jesus was a Republican, Democrats would convert to another religion :)
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power to the people
If Jesus was a Democrat, Republicans would convert to Islam.
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Lionheart
:)
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Rev. Rene
Are you people for real??? Stop with the hate and political bullying already, there is enough hate in this world to go around, and as fellow citizens please just stop, already!!!
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Don
What hate? Are you seeing things that aren't there?
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VCDee
Satan has done a brilliant job of blinding the masses. There is a huge battle going on all around us. Simply because it is not visible to our eyes does not mean it's not happening. The angels of God and the angels of Satan are in a deep warfare. God will give us every chance He can to redeem ourselves but I see Satan gobbling up more souls by the day. Don is right. There is no hate. What there is, is the blindness of liberals who have fallen to the dark side. I will be viciously attacked for that comment in here and expect it. But those attacks are simply further proof of the statements made. God Bless you Don. Stay strong. Keep the protection of the Holy Spirit around you. We're going to need it.
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Dr Griffith
You can frame it anyway you want, but when I hear a President speaking about white supremacy with respect that is hate.
Hate- mass shooting in synagogue, sending pipe bombs, tying a gay man to a fence post, the list goes on. If that is not hate I'm not sure what is.
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Steven
Exactly David A Griffith. One must be blind to not see the hate that is so rampant in our country. Its worse and more than I have ever seen in my lifetime.
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Don
"The angels of God and the angels of Satan" are imaginary. You are an adult woman. GROW UP.
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John Owens
David A. Griffith, you have never heard President Trump talking about respecting white supremacy. Never. He didn't say anything like that. It is a lie to say he did.
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Lionheart
We're just having fun Rene. Don't take things so seriously. There are many tongue-in-cheek comments in these blogs.
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Norma Battes
Lionheart November 2, 2018 at 5:51 pm " There are many tongue-in-cheek comments in these blogs. " Ooo, ooo, so white Jesus and white Santa walk into a bar....
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power to the people
Political bullying? Better check trump on that.
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Rev. RJ Levesque, Jr.
All good hearted joking around until THAT comment Rev. White. I have no problem with us discussing political ideas and values maturely...meaning don't diss other peoples ideas or political stances please. We should all be able to discuss this as mature adults, especially this group.
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John Owens
Rene, I believe I saw a sign pointing toward a safe space WAAAAAAAAAAY over there somewhere =====>>>>.
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Bill
I totally agree! This hate has to stop! however this so called caravan headed towards our bordernis nothing short of an invasion of our country and sovrenty it must be stopped at all cost! We have a legal process for them to enter and they would then be welcome. Race has nothing to do with it! It's the law
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Greg
eyeroll
No, the so called "caravan" is not an invasion of our country. The numbers are hardly in the thousands. Not at all what one might consider an "invasion." And further, these people are coming to seek Asylum, and are following the process set up to do so.
Are you done fear-mongering, or do you want to keep spreading falsities?
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John Owens
I wonder if Jefferson Sqaure watches any actual news.
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toni d.
Bless you. Love is the only answer. Jesus would not take sides, Democrat, republican, muslim are all children of God. God is Love. Hate is not of God. Where do these haters stand?
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Lionheart
Don’t forget that your “loving” god killed many children of the first born, as well everyone on the face if the earth except one family led by a drunkard. He seems to struggle with his anger. If that’s your god you can keep him.
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Don
"Hate is not of God" What Bible are you reading from?? God proclaims Hate twice as much as Love.
Proverbs 6:16 There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him:
Proverbs 8:13 The fear of the Lord is hatred of evil. Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate.
There are another 202 verses where God proclaims hate of something or someone. Only 94 instances of Love - about 2 to 1 ratio there.
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John Owens
Excellent, Donny!
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james thomas
Yes, all in the name of Love while expressing hate; white evangelicals. But it is that exact trait inherent in their (G)god; unrelenting and unconditional: then kill everybody, except, ya know, "the ones I favor".
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power to the people
Relax rene, we were just having a little fun.
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Bobby French
He would still be my Savior.
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Lionheart
That’s okay, you can still get help. Your medical insurance might not cover it, but if it will help you in any way we’ll send you our thoughts and......thoughts. Let us know if our thoughts help you.
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Bill
Mine too,thanks Mr French! Perhaps Lionheart will wonder if her insurance will cover her on judgement day! I do not believe Jesus woild approve of her hate mongering ways!....I will pray for her!
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Past Security Enforcement Loss Prevention Officer
You mean they're not already?
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power to the people
Well, the democrats and repulicans are doing as much, or more damage to this country as the perceived damage being done by Islam.
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Mitch
Lol! Absolutely true !
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R. Tate
Politics is not about religion, nor should it ever be. It is about sustaining our nation, according to our constitution and common laws. Without maintaining our borders (for which we have laws regulating immigration) there can be no order. Pew Research estimate that it cost the US $33,000. per each illegal immigrant. Without border controls, where will it stop? Illegals from most of Central America are on the march.
Will Venezuela be next?-
Dorothy
No one hates these people. We just are very sick of paying for all their anchor babies. I had one child and worked 2 jobs to raise him. No more freebies.
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Mitch
"As you treat the least of my creatures you treat me also". Do any of you alledged Christians even read the Testament?
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John Owens
That has nothing to do with this.
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Norma Battes
Mitch November 7, 2018 at 9:46 am “As you treat the least of my creatures you treat me also”.
Agreed. If half the money proposed for walls (or armed soldiers) were spent on fixing the immigration process and rehabilitating immigrants I'd be happy.
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John Owens
Norma, I do not think that will fix the problem. It cannot be "fixed". On the one hand, most people want the U.S. to stay out of other countries' business. On the other, many want the U.S. to feed, clothe, house, and provide medical care for them, and in some cases, protect them with our military.
There is nothing wrong with our immigration process except that we do not enforce it, or live by it. It is not broken-- we do not practice it. The Wall is a big step in the right direction.
As to trying to quote Jesus, which most people do when they think it suits their motives, don't you support separation of church and state? How can you believe in separation of church and state, and then try to use Jesus' words to influence what the state does to protect itself? Jesus' preaching was not to GOVERNMENTS, but to individuals. Nations are not supposed to turn the other cheek, or give away everything. There is a reason for that. The Nation's job is to protect and defend its own citizens and the assets of the nation belong to the people, not the government. So, for a country to give its assets to foreigners, it must first steal from its inhabitants.
Again, the only thing wrong with our immigration process is that we are not following it rigorously. To begin that, mass illegal immigration must be stopped. There are billions of people breeding on the planet and we cannot care for them all.
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Norma Battes
John Owens November 8, 2018 at 7:19 am " It cannot be “fixed”. Interesting.
" It is not broken– we do not practice it. The Wall is a big step in the right direction. " Immigration is a process. Not following the process is not to say it is broken, i.e. There is nothing wrong. Really? So say there is built "The Wall", and there comes a ladder, but we do not "fix" (remove) the ladder, because wall(!) isn't "broken"? Yes? I do not believe that.
" As to trying to quote Jesus, which most people do when they think it suits their motives, don’t you support separation of church and state? How can you believe in separation of church and state, and then try to use Jesus’ words to influence what the state does to protect itself? " As you purport to postulate this notion of "separation of church and state" by this Administration, following is from The Western Journal website, https://www.westernjournal.com/hermancain/new-washington-post-attack-matt-whitaker-said-prefer-christian-judges/ - "'I’d like to see things like their world view, what informs them. Are they people of faith? Do they have a biblical view of justice? — which I think is very important because we all know that our government …', he continues, 'And what I know is as long as they have that world view, that they’ll be a good judge. And if they have a secular world view, where this is all we have here on Earth, then I’m going to be very concerned about that judge.'” This is some statements from an interview with Mr. Matt Whitaker by the Washington Post. As for the Evangelicals, well....
" Jesus’ preaching was not to GOVERNMENTS, but to individuals. " Are not Governments/Nations "people?" " So, for a country to give its assets to foreigners, it must first steal from its inhabitants. " You feel charity is stealing? Compassion is stealing. The richest nation in the world cannot afford charity? Amazing.
" There are billions of people breeding on the planet and we cannot care for them all. " Who was that dude that fed a bunch of hungry people with a fish and something.... I forget. I pray for you John Owens. Every day.
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flugo
Mitch: Your're something else!
We're supposed to just turn a blind eye to this mob which wants to enter the U.S. ILLEGALLY! Jesus said to render unto Caesar that which belongs to him. That means obeying the country's laws as well.
(And you horribly mi-quoted the Scripture.)
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John Owens
Norma, Since your dictionary is defective, let me explain something to you: only charity is charity. If you take something from me to give it to someone else, that is NOT charity. That is theft. If the government says, you must give 2% of your income to others, that is theft. The government does not produce income. If a person wants to give to charity, they should give. If they have nothing to give, they should work, so that they CAN have to give, but if the NATION gives, it must TAKE from its inhabitants. Period. Your point of view lacks any nuance or wisdom.
Also, Jesus during His physical sojourn among humans NEVER set out rules for nations, only individuals. He also never said to allow your home to be overrun by foreigners. As to the person you are quoting, (Matt Whitaker) why would his opinion be any more relevant than yours or mine, and why do you insert him into this discussion?
Are you arguing just to be arguing? Because that is how it seems.
Yes. Immigration is a process. It does not being by entering a country illegally. There is a system, which is not being followed.
Also, I did not "postulate" anything. I wrote my observations.
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John Owens
Also, Jesus did not adopt all those people and care for them forever. Only a moron would try. He knew they were hungry and fed them, but He did not take them to raise. If you learn to multiply food as He did, you can feed them all you want, but I can't do it, because I do not have that gift. I DO give to people in need, though, and do not try to take from my neighbor to give to those I favor more. That is what you want. Theft, and then you try to use Jesus to justify it. Hypocrisy in the umpteenth degree.
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John Owens
Oh, and Norma, Paul also wrote, in his second letter to the Thessalonians, "2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat." That doesn't sound like they were communists or socialists.
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Dr Griffith
While you were working two jobs to support your child you also could have been receiving help from the government for groceries and your child's needs. Perhaps you could have had one full-time job and one part-time job so you could spend more time with your child.
Where was your husband, why was he not contributing to the costs of raising a child? Why did you have a child if you could not afford a child?
I'm tired of hearing I did this so everyone should or I did so you can. How do you know?
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Don
"you also could have been receiving help from the government for groceries and your child’s needs"
Being a responsible adult and taking care of your own children isn't a crime, David. At least, it isn't yet...
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Reverend Krystina S.
And when an immigrant comes in without papers, they are not eligible for ANY government programs. When they work, they do not receive the taxes they paid back. They do not receive any social security. They provide services that would otherwise be difficult to staff. These poor people work the crops we eat, the tobacco we smoke, the cotton we wear, the grapes we drink as wine. They work in dangerous conditions slaughtering and butchering the cattle, hogs, and chickens we eat. They do the yardwork. They take care of our babies and our grandparents and our homes. They are almost all very honest, and are LESS likely to commit crimes. They are mostly VERY CHRISTIAN, either Catholic or Evangelical. They believe in close, loving families, more often against abortion and LGBT rights. They most often are leaving gangs, violence, desperate poverty. What is not to LOVE????? What would Jesus Do? LOVE THEM.
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Rick Williams
Thugs invading our nation while burning our flag and demanding a lifetime of free food, housing, money and housing. Plus they are breaking our laws entering here. Jesus says to follow the laws of the land. Plus the Holy Spirit put them in their nation for a reason...they need to stay there.
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Larry Greeen
Right on, if you want to come to the US then follow the laws. Regesture become citizen.
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Greg
You really can't reason with....well that up there.
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John Owens
"that up there" is already reasonable and reasoned out. It needs no more reasoning.
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John Owens
well, the first half of it. The second half might be debated.
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Dr Griffith
Thank you for writing the truth, it is too bad people that people like Rick are unable to see or hear the truth. The lies of our leader go into the heads of the ignorant....
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Michael Christopher Gutierrez
I work for the department of health and human services in California with all due respect reverend, illegals do receive government services including welfare and health care services.
This is legal issue reverend, there is no country I can go to illegally and stay and receive any government support and in due time when caught if I overstay my visa will be picked up by immigration and locked up and then departed.
We take in combined from all categories of legal immigration combined over 800K per year. The USA arms are wide open for legal immigrants.
As far as your points, lets be clear, people are people. While I agree there are many good illegal immigrants that work hard and do jobs most citizens would not want to do. An unfortunately we do have US employers that take advantage of illegal labor, pay them draconian wages and have them living in substandard conditions. AND these employers should be prosecuted because it is wrong and illegal.
In addition if your referring to Latin illegal immigrants, culturally family is still important to most of them. These metrics do not give them the right to come to the USA illegally. So based on these attributes we welcome Legal Immigrants, GOD knows we need moral and good people in this country in today's world.
What would Jesus do? He says give Cesar what is due Cesar, it is point about following the rule of law to that country.
Lastly, most come her for a better life but geographically they can go to MEXICO which is very rich today (every country has its poor, just look around at the USA homeless) or Belize, Costa Rica, etc, My point is there are other countries they can illegally go to but it is the USA because we are a welfare state. I wish I could send you photos of homeless encampments, people living on the side the free ways and under bridges in in Silicon Valley where i live. These are residents, citizens, veterans etc. We have to take care our problems first......But think about how much aid and the NGO services we expert to help the poor around the world? The USA is not cold and uncaring.
I say, not the lord, we welcome legal immigrants and I hope we always do but you have to come here legally. Thank you for your opinion, I respect your right to share.
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John Owens
I'll just leave this here:
“Educated on a legal loophole that lets migrant ‘families’ with kids enter the United States, the Homeland Security Department reported Tuesday that men showing up with kids at the border has spiked 110 percent in just the last two years,” Paul Bedard reports in the Washington Examiner.
“The department noted that children could be used by smugglers and drug traffickers to enter the country. Families are also using fraud to game the immigration system. The department said that 170 families have been caught lying about their relationships to enter the U.S.”
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Edward Bouissey
Wow, sounds like without illegals in this country w the United States would collapse.... Blinded by Christianity is as bad as not religious...
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John Owens
Do-gooders are the bain of existence wherever they are found.
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Bill
How many do you plan on loving and bringing into your home!
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James
"These poor people work the crops we eat, the tobacco we smoke, the cotton we wear, the grapes we drink as wine. They work in dangerous conditions slaughtering and butchering the cattle, hogs, and chickens we eat. They do the yard work." In my life I have done all of these but cotton and grapes and worse before becoming a service tech in first auto mechanics then auto body. There are plenty of LEGAL citizens, whether born or legally immigrated, willing to do this work and more. The argument here is LEGAL vs. ILLEGAL and they cannot legally ask for asylum here as they have twice refused Mexico's offer. By international lay that precludes claiming asylum at our border. I welcome ANYONE to immigrate to America, as long as they do it legally.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
James: Americans are NOT picking up the slack to pick the crops that migrants used to pick. They don't want these labor intensive, back-breaking jobs. Read these reports about this and learn.
"Alabama immigration: crops rot as workers vanish to avoid crackdown The day before harsh new laws came into effect, Brian Cash had 65 Hispanic men picking tomatoes. Now he has none " "Cash gets angry when people tell him that his Hispanic workforce was taking jobs away from Americans. Since the new law began two weeks ago only two American citizens have come by his farm asking for work." https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/14/alabama-immigration-law-workers
"Amid immigration crackdown, this avocado farmer is struggling to find workers" "Shade will need 50 harvesters for peak season. Right now, he has 25. He's tried to hire more, but a skilled crew is becoming harder to find: The workforce he's relied on is aging and he's having a hard time finding people to replace them." "Many of the harvesters I remember from when I was just a teenager - they're still harvesting," he says. Even though he pays well above minimum wage, he's also lost workers to farms that can afford to pay more. The experienced harvesters at Shade's farm can make up to $400 a day, he says. The rookies start off at minimum wage and then move up to $200 to $300 a day after a few weeks. Finding workers, especially at peak harvesting season, is a problem many of the nation's farmers face." https://money.cnn.com/2018/06/15/news/economy/california-farmer-workers-immigration/index.html
"Immigration Crackdown Expected To Increase Crops Left Unharvested In California Fields “There aren’t enough workers, and everyone is fighting for everybody else’s workers,” says one vineyard owner." "The empty slots don’t translate into more jobs for Americans because Americans don’t want them, according to farmers, even though farmworker pay in many areas is well above minimum wage, paying close to $30,000 in certain areas for full-time work, reports the Los Angeles Times. But the labor is back-breaking, involves long hours, and is seasonal, leaving stretches of time with no pay for many workers. U.S. workers filled just 2 percent of tracked farm jobs advertised in 1996, according to a report by the Labor Department, and the statistic is believed to be similar today. One vineyard owner complained that every American he has ever hired to work in the fields quit by lunch the first day." https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/immigrant-worker-unharvested-crops_us_59508a72e4b05c37bb774d89
"The Law Of Unintended Consequences: Georgia's Immigration Law Backfires." "Despite high unemployment in the state, most Georgians don’t want such back-breaking jobs, nor do they have the necessary skills. According to Dick Minor, president of the Georgia Fruit and Vegetable Grower’s Association, immigrants “are pretty much professional harvesters” with many specializing in particular crops. Workers are paid by volume, with skilled workers typically earning $15 to $20 an hour. Unskilled workers earn much less, which is why most locals don’t want the jobs." https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/05/17/the-law-of-unintended-consequences-georgias-immigration-law-backfires/#4dad308b492a
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John Owens
Do away with all the giveaway programs, and Americans will want to work so they can eat.
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Bill Sprague
Please post a link to the Pew Research study you referred to.
Secondly: Your use of the word "illegals" is not appropriate. No one is an "illegal" until they cross the border illegally; and if they are asylum seekers, they are not crossing the border illegally.
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Don
"if they are asylum seekers" --- There are none in this caravan, according to international law. They were offered asylum - twice - and refused it both times en masse. This makes them ineligible for asylum seeker status.
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John Owens
...and thank you, Don.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
Don: Regarding your statement: They were offered asylum – twice – and refused it both times en masse. This makes them ineligible for asylum seeker status.
The claim: “The entire Central American migrant caravan rejected Mexico's offer of jobs, medical care and education.” Snopes reports this is a Mixture. What's True - Many members of the Central American migrant caravan moving through Mexico rejected that country's offer of temporary identification papers and jobs if they applied for asylum there. What's False - Some 1,700 caravan travelers opted to accept the offer to apply for asylum in Mexico. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/caravan-mexico-offer/
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John Owens
I would just caution you to realize that Snopes is another leftist front, like NPR. Has been since day one.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
Thank you John boy for that paid political propaganda announcement from the right wing extremists of Newsmax, Brietbart, the Blaze, and Infowars, making it totally irrelevant.
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John Owens
"REV" Robert Barker, who said anything about any of those news outlets you mentioned? Other than you, I mean?
If you would read Snopes with an analytical mind, you would see they always back the left, even when they cannot deny the truth of the right, they will say, "partially true", and then tell you everything the right says is true, but re-interpret it to pacify your needy, weak mind.
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Jeff Grippe
Sorry Christian people, but if the historical Jesus existed, given where he is from, he isn't white. He may not be full on black but he is from a place where the people have color. Certainly current racists would not include him. The pale, white Jesus is a European myth.
As to politics, my guess, and it's only a guess, is that he would have stayed out of it. Clearly he was anti-establishment but that says nothing about where his politics would be. I think he would want to be left alone to work on his ministry.
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Rick Williams
Your biblical knowledge of facts are very elusive.
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Norma Battes
Rick November 7, 2018 at 10:13 am " Your biblical knowledge of facts are very elusive. " Unless you are a creationist, Mr. Grippe's anthropological knowledge is spot on. BTW, creationist or evolutionist, Moses probably didn't look like Charlton Heston.
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John Owens
What does Jesus' race have to do with ANYTHING?
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Michael Christopher Gutierrez
This is not a race issue. Legal immigration and legal diversity helps to continue to create this great country. But Illegal immigration cost billions in services, including welfare, housing, medical, mental health and criminal justice services. Regardless of color, America is a country of rule of law and we already have a hard time taking care our own, residents and citizens. The middle class is shrinking at alarming rates and most are just living pay check to pay check. No this is not about race and diversity, its a economic and legal issue.
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John Owens
ATTENTION, EVERYONE! Notice this man's last name. He is speaking reasonably. He is not a racist. You cannot legitimately accuse him of being racist. This is not about racism at all. To argue about racism, when discussing illegal immigration, is to show that you are woefully uninformed and/or poorly educated. That does not mean you do or do not have a degree. It means you were taught to believe falsehoods.
Thank you for your reasoned comments, Mr. Gutierrez.
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Sean
No one I know is opposed to immigration, they are all opposed to "illegal immigration", which really isn't even a thing. If you sneak across the border to get into the country instead of coming through a port of entry, declaring yourself and your family and providing a passport from your country of origin, then you aren't immigrating, your committing a crime against the United States of America, period. Why can a christian (I can't speak for other so called religions) see this as the proper way to deal with immigration issues, simple “Render to Caesar what is Caesar’s” is a well-known scripture that appears in Matthew 22:21. We live in a world ruled by men, so we abide by the rules of men while doing God's will. It's not hate, it's not lack of caring or an of the other hateful things that are said, its as simple as obeying the law.
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The Doctor
Seanado let me lay it out for you, much like the misnomer obamacare was given to the AHCA to turn people opposed to Obama specifically, against an act that when explained to and called the AHCA they heartily approved the nationalist faction of the US media uses the term Illegal with a broad brush that is meant to stir up people just like you.
Refugees do not have to have PAPERS and in a civilized country like ours we should not be acting like Stalin Era USSR demanding papers when someone is fleeing a dangerous homeland.
And infact we dont. If someone crosses our border and surrenders themselves while seeking asylum they are doing it quite lawfully.
Nor is there some international law that says a refugee has to simply stop at the neighboring country or first country that offers them sanctuary.
A great many of the people that seek the U.S. are from places we have manipulated and tampered with the politics of, and had people on the ground there selling the idea of the U.S. as some kind of noble and benevolent land. So then ofcourse these simple peoples when we withdraw and turn our backs on these lands and people now feeling threatened by those that hated our presence in the region, feel a desperate need to come to our land.
Which I dont blame them for. Desperate times call for desperate measures they say. And few of the coddled and privileged here have any idea what desperate means.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
GOP Jesus Go to: https://youtu.be/SZ2L-R8NgrA
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
Have you heard about "Better Angels"? Do you think this organization has a chance of bringing the political temperature down in the U.S. and encourage less shouting at one another, more genuine dialogue, more civility, agreeing to disagree agreeably, and finding of common ground? Would you become a member of "Better Angels" and be part of a group discussion with conservatives or progressive/liberals? What do you think? Watch this ABC Nightline segment and respond.
https://abcnews.go.com//Nightline/video/group-bridge-growing-partisan-divide-depolarize-america-56830897#disqus_thread -
Deborah Latter
Jesus was about love. Full stop. He would be cringing and crying at how some people are interpreting "love thy neighbour". People need to read the bible in context; not cherry-pick a passage here and there that seems to back up their all too human (and often very un-Christ-like) viewpoints. We should be preaching love. Shining love. Showing love in thought, word and deed. Everything about Christianity should be proving to the world that we are all about everything that's good, kind, joy-filled, and charitable regardless of a person's country of origin, skin colour, or belief system. Instead...[sigh]...it's no wonder that church attendance is dwindling. All people see of Christianity is hate, exclusion, hypocrisy, idolatry, greed, unlawfulness, and general bad behaviour. Why would anyone in their right mind want to be part of that?
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Jim Collins
I find it funny that articles cannot seem to get scripture in context ...imagine that you can have scripture for being leary of the stranger and have one that says treat them good .. here is the point .. AFTER the foreigner had gone through the proper channels were they to be treated well and not be looked at like they are spies or other .. Governments even back then said who comes in ..
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I am from Central America, keep in mind that there is witchcraft, santeria and satanism going on around Latin America and Africa, their idols are being exported to our countries and to the US also. The US has its own demons, but this is a global immigration of demons as well. (not just people) it is a perverse manipulation of human beings. They are carrying their idols and introducing these practices into your country, it has also a spiritual connotation. The "santa muerte" devotion from the drug cartels and gangs is growing in masive numbers in our countries. It is very scary because it is one of the worst satanist worships. God will never heal our land, God hate idolatry.