Lately, the lives of transgender people seem to be all over the news. For example, after a much-publicized transition from male to female, the press continues to document all the minor details in Caitlyn Jenner's life. Policymakers have crafted transgender bathroom laws. President Obama even got involved by formally directing every public school in the nation to support transgender rights. With such stories constantly flooding our newsfeeds, it's no wonder people have developed strong opinions.
Some feel that we, as a country, are not doing enough to protect the rights of transgender people. Others disagree, expressing a belief that transgender people are "unnatural" and shouldn't be catered to. Others still see it as a non-issue, a manufactured controversy that's simply an outgrowth of the fierce political climate we live in.
One aspect of this debate that tends to be overlooked may actually be a driving factor: religion. Whether we realize it or not, our religious beliefs influence the way we react to issues such as transgender rights. So, what do the organized religions think about transgender people?
Catholic Silence
In terms of Christianity specifically the largest branch of Christianity, Catholicism the Church has been largely silent when it comes to matters of gender and sex. In a recent post on a blog geared toward transgender Catholics, the complicated relationship between the Church and transgender people is explained in detail. The article explains that while the roles of the LGBTQ community at large are often referenced by church officials, transgender people themselves are often left out of this conversation entirely. Church doctrine and church officials skirt around topics relating to transgender rights and have answered very few questions concerning the Church's official stance on transgender worshipers.
Considering how frequently Church officials discuss topics such as gay marriage, the lack of information regarding transgender policy is certainly curious. Why has this part of our community - which has grown in prominence as people feel increasingly comfortable expressing themselves - been completely ignored by the Catholic Church? Is it possible their silence on the issue has contributed in part to the rampant discrimination faced by transgender people?
A Range of Opinions
While the main religions remain conflicted, there are plenty of individual branches that have taken specific stances on transgender issues. For example, within Christianity, the United Church of Christ, Unitarian Universalist, and Episcopal churches have all issued statements supporting the inclusion of transgender people in their congregations and even supported their right to get ordained. Unsurprisingly, certain evangelical sects of Christianity either do not welcome transgender people or refuse to comment on the issue.
In Judaism, there exists a similar divide. Orthodox Jews are firmly against transgender people and do not support transgender rights. On the other side of the coin, though, Reform Judaism officials recently passed a resolution declaring their "commitment to the full equality, inclusion, and acceptance of people of all gender identities and gender expressions."
Surprisingly, in some Islamic countries, there seems to be less stigma around gender issues than in the United States. For example, Iran ranks second in the world for sex change operations behind only Thailand. Although there is a difference between being transgender and transsexual, this is nonetheless an interesting statistic. (It's not all rosy, though note that most Iranian sex changes are undergone to avoid punishment under the country's harsh laws against homosexuality).
The Transgender Movement Going Forward
Despite the significant social progress that's been made in recent times, transgender people continue to be stigmatized and face discrimination in their everyday lives. In an era when older, traditional religious values are being confronted with modern views and social change, it's no surprise that we see a wide range of views toward transgender people even within individual religions themselves. We'd love to get some input from our readers. Does your faith have an official stance on this issue? If so, does that stance align with your personal beliefs? If not, why not?
163 comments
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barbfusco215gmailcom
It's very simple to me. It doesn't matter what anyone's sexual orientation is. You love and accept someone for who they are. What their sexual orientation is, it's between them, and their God.
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DJ
The second Commandment says to 'love thy neighbor as thyself'. If we could just follow this simple directive, life would be so much the better for all.
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Brother John
Hmmmm. I thought the L in LGBTQ was lesbian, not "libs", Tim.
"I live by what the Bible said, and no a person isn’t born that way; then we’dd have to say that God is gay."
Most, if not all, of the judgemental comments about sexual identity, homosexuality etc. I read here are posted by Christian believers. Congratulations for not goose stepping along with them. What isn't clear is your proposition that if people were "born that way", we'd have to say God was gay. You're certainly out of step with the Christian majority if you think God is simply another "person".
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Timothy Forrestet
I live by what the Bible said, and no a person isn't born that way; then we'dd have to say that God is gay. And as far as putting the gay, libs, transgender, or queers down and judging them is wrong. I leave that up to God: I'll never push my beliefs and faith and religion on anyone. As far do I hate them the answer is NO! we need to try to understand them and not hurt or even kill them. We are not God, so leave that to God and try to understand. Jesus said to live all, and that also means them. Now is the time to live as friends and not as one trying to take the law, or trying to be Judge.
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Ken Dixon
"the gay, libs, transgender, or queers"
You don't see characterizing people solely on the basis of one aspect of their being as judging them? You don't think using a slur such as "queers" is passing judgement? What is it you need to "try to understand"? A person happens to be gay. End of story.
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Aydan O'Connor
I am transgender and I have been out of the closet as many would say, for nearly ten years now. In those ten years I have felt such hatred, anger and ignorance aimed at not only me but also my family because of this. Hatred, anger, fear and ignorance that people hide behind their religious ideals. I am Pagan, because I have been chased from the Christian faith by the followers that would rather attempt to end my life rather than seek understanding that I am different. My faith does not judge someone because they are gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender or queer. There is enough hatred in this world as it is without someone trying to kill another human being just because they are different.
I pray that the day will come when people are able to put aside their differences and understand that just because someone doesn't believe the exact same thing they do, doesn't mean that they are a bad person. Time and time again followers of major world religions cry "don't blame the many for the acts of the few", they cry not to judge them, yet they themselves are quick to judge others that don't subscribe to the same faith practices that they do.
I do not believe that our respective deities will judge us for being kind to someone that is different, for understanding their path is not our own, or for showing love when there has only been hatred. I do believe, however; that our Gods and Goddesses will judge us for our hatred and ignorance, lack of compassion and acting out against the beliefs that our religions set for us.
There is enough hatred, it is time for understanding. The wonderful thing about religion is no one has to believe what I do to respect that I am a human being worthy of life, nor do I have to believe what others do to see that in them.
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Carrie
Thank you for your post. I thank you because we are of like minds. I came out and have been undergoing hrt for a year and a half. I am also a Witch. I have no desire to judge others nor do I wish to be judged by anyone for who I am. It has taken me many years to finally be content with myself. I never felt that I was driven out of the Christian faith, I left because I found so many questions that I could never reconcile with, like where is the Mother's place in creation. It wasn't until years later that I was told she is represented by the "Holy Ghost". She should have the prime role, as far as I am concerned, as the carrier and nurturer of life. It takes two to make a baby. On a lighter note, I ran across an interesting question from one of my coven. If the Christian God created Adam, then took one of Adam's ribs, formed another person and transitioned it into Eve, doesn't that make her transgender?
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Brother John
“Scriptures, n. The sacred books of our holy religion, as distinguished from the false and profane writings on which all other faiths are based.” ― Ambrose Bierce, The Unabridged Devil's Dictionary
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vic smyth
According to my faith as an 8th Day Adventist: In the spiritual realm you are loved unconditionally just the way you are. Simply be yourself and let others be themselves and you will get a hero's welcome when you return Home.
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Dr John Patrick Keefe II (Dr. Tinsley Ariana Taylor Keefe)
I am an ordained minister, and i am also transgendered. I cannot tell you just how much pain and heartache I have had to suffer from others, since I came out about 2 months ago. People who should have been there to support me did not, and some people I did not think would did. My wife's parents physically attacked earlier this week, and some people have threatened me with the most horrible of things. Even people who were close to me who were black, gay and overweight left me, which made no sense. I would have thought they, at least, would have known how much discrimination hurts and might not do it . . .?
Being LGBTQ is NOT a choice; it is biological. We used to think that witch hunts were "normal" and that witches actually existed - and guess what!? They do not exist! Innocent people were getting murdered by legalised killing! How horrible!
You know where this fear comes from? Superstition. Superstition comes from ignorance. We need better education and more access to information. Science is explaining what we did not previously know, and therein lies the answers to our most pressing questions! Science and evolution will continue to explain so much, and future generations will look back on how cruelly and inhumanely we have been treating each other . . . because someone is transgendered? I mean really? THAT is the best we can find to fight over? People who do really need to get a better, more productive hobby.
I do not tell others how to live their lives. I do not care what your race is, where you are from, what your gender is, what your religious beliefs are or are not, what your sexual orientation/gender identity are, how old you are, whether you have a disability or not, etc. Life is short, and these petty things are, well, petty and stupid. It is high time for us to evolve and practice what other greats like Jesus and Mohammed, Mother Theresa, Buddha, Ghandi, etc., throughout the ages have taught us: Love others. Love others, Love others.Forget the rest!!! <3
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Dan
So I ask you this: you married a woman...yet you only came out a couple months ago. This means your wife thought she was marrying a male. Right? You didn't tell her ahead of time you were transgendered. She put her trust in you and you broke that trust. You talk about your heartbreak, but what about your wife's heartbreak? Is she not a victim in this?
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Dr John Patrick Keefe II (Dr. Tinsley Ariana Taylor Keefe)
I did not realise it until now, and we have been married about 9 1/2 years. I understand she may be mad and angry and so on, as it is part of the grieving process. However, being mad and angry and sad, etc., is one thing; I get that. Acting in a hateful, hurtful, bigoted way is not okay tho. <3
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Katelynne Victoria Shouse
As a transgender woman I've got to say anyone who believes this is a choice is either unable to comprehend modern medical and scientific findings, or chooses to remain willfully ignorant in spite of these proofs!
Katelynne Victoria Shouse.
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Brother John
I'll go with your second reason, Katelynne.
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Brother John
It's interesting, and perhaps telling, that this topic generates so many comments. The April 22 post, "Transgender Bathroom Policy", had 556 comments when I last checked. This eclipsed topics like gender equality, sex education in schools, the death penalty and religious oppression by a wide margin. Not that it isn't important, but aren't there topics that would elicit an equal number of interest and comments?
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Ken Dixon
It's a sign of the times, the plethora of news sources and widespread access to the internet by the willfully uninformed, I think. There have been very high-profile transgender stories at least as far back as the 1950s (Christine Jorgenson, Renee Richards, Wendy Carlos...just to name a few), but they didn't generate the kind of negative response I see when the subject comes up now.
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Larry Copeland
It's amazing to me how Satan works on people's mind so that they believe and accept his words over Gods. On judgement day we will go to Hell or Heaven based on what we say and do now. No Heaven- no judgement No Hell- no fire and Brimstone. Neither One - why argue about it .!!!
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Ken Dixon
"Let’s cut to the chase: Transgenderism is simply an attempt by someone who cannot make it as themselves … and they try to be something that they are not in order to get attention."
Well, thanks a pantload for clearing that up. Okay, everyone...on to another topic.
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Mitchell Watrous
Let's cut to the chase: Transgenderism is simply an attempt by someone who cannot make it as themselves ... and they try to be something that they are not in order to get attention. They feel that they can express any air-headed idea that they want to as a transgender ... and get away with it unchallenged ... but would be criticized in their real gender-self.
A penis equals a male ... a vagina equals a female ... and most of us really LOVE that identifying difference.
Self-serving ideological bigots want to pigeon-hole others, who disagree them, into some "politically correct" category such as racists, sexists, homophobes, etc.
There is another category that is growing, and you better get used to it because this group is getting tired of all the whiners and money grabbers.
Yep ... that upcoming category is called "realists" ... and you can run up and kiss their horses' butts while they saddle-up and ride off if your don't like their opinions.
They are getting tired of all the little whiny, needy, sniffley failures that need attention to feel fulfilled, needed, and important, while they impune others who do not care if they are "confused" about whether or not they have a penis or vagina "thingy."
Get over it ... and get a life.
Thanks.
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Ellen M. Santistevan
As usual here, a few reasonable voices and a lot of hatred and intolerance. I wonder why people sign up for this ministry if not to be a loving and compassionate presence in people's lives? Being transgender is not something I thought a lot about until my son came out. We have been through coming out, hormone treatment, and gender confirmation surgery, and what I can tell you is that my SON is so much less anxious, so much less depressed, and so much more mature since being able to live authentically as who he is. He lives with integrity now instead of trying to live a thousand lies. Yes, sometimes I miss the less complicated days, but I would rather that my children be true to themselves instead of to what I or 'society" might expect from them. And really, what's with the whole bathroom thing? Didn't any of you grow up in a family with a shared bathroom?? Privacy is the reason why they have stalls, you know. Most trans people are just trying not to get mugged or harassed as they live their lives.
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Brother John
Ellen asked, "I wonder why people sign up for this ministry if not to be a loving and compassionate presence in people’s lives?"
To have a public forum to proselytize?
To save "non-believers" from eternal Hell?
To trumpet the superiority of their beliefs/religion/God?
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J.W.
I don't sit in judgement of any one that is left up to God! I don't support transgenders or gays either, but I don't hate them for the choices they have made either. They have a right to go forth and be who they just to be but again I don't have to prove of what they are doing either. I will pray for them as I will everyone else. We all need prayer and the kindness of each other in our lives in this day in time. God bless each everyone!
Rev. Jeff Lynn
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Rev. Robin Lynn Frank
Aren't you contradicting yourself? If you don't judge, on what basis don't you support?
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Ken Dixon
I wonder if you understand how odd it is to define people as "transgenders or gays" as if that's all there was to them - or even their most important characteristic. It makes as much sense as saying you don't support redheads or mathematicians. My transgender status doesn't loom nearly as large in my mind as it apparently does in yours. It's only a small part of who I am.
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Pastor B Stevens
Great answer ?
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Elehshua
I love it! This kind of Spiritual Stimulation is precisely what we need to enact some of the behavioral laws and regulations set forth by our Ever-Loving Creator.
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Brother John
It's crazy what people believe, Ken. I've done my best to downplay the fact that I'm left handed for good reason (as evidenced by the Landover Baptist Church) but I was born this way.
http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=49703
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Kathy
What bothers me the most, is how the bible is being quoted as the "last and final word". People, God's word was destroyed millennia ago. We have proof of the changes that were made to it. It was changed by Kings to gain control over their kingdoms and people. Then the "big" Church got involved, and decided to make more changes for their male hierarchy and to control even more masses of people. So what is being quoted and followed is merely a flesh and blood washed down version of the original word. Just do unto others as you would have done to you. Peace and love, Kathy
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Brother John
Bravo Kathy!! It's truly incredible that so many people use a plagiarized Bronze Age book written by superstitious men with no extant original manuscripts as the basis of their beliefs and world view.
http://godisimaginary.com/i5.htm
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Brother Frank
Hi Kathy There is in fact more than 5000 scrolls that have survived. I have researched the original texts for more than 40 years.
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Brother John
As a biblical scholar yourself Brother Frank, I'm sure you're familiar with Dr. Bart Ehrman, who has spent a similar amount of time as a widely recognized New Testament scholar. Dr. Ehrman is able to read the ancient Greek manuscripts that he can access due to his credentials.
I encourage you to scroll up to my recent comment that includes a video of one of his many presentations. According to Dr. Ehrman, there are no extant original manuscripts of the New Testament. Zero. No one has access to "the original texts". There are copies, of copies, of copies…….. many small fragments and most written decades and centuries after the events they chronicle. There are thousands of errors and contradictions amongst them. I assume these include the scrolls you've mentioned. Dr. Ehrman agrees with Kathy in essence. If your 40 years of research contradicts his findings, please let us know.
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Timothy Forrestet
Kathy wake up, the Bible is still alive, as it was years ago. The bible is the only book that has stand for century's: I don't know where you got your information, but I'm here to tell you the Bible is alive and well. I'll Pray for you, that God will show you his true way and words.
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Brother John
I don't know where you get your information, Timothy, but the bible is certainly not "the only book that has stand for century's".
https://wiganlanebooks.co.uk/blog/interesting/10-of-the-oldest-known-surviving-books-in-the-world/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_literature
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Marius Gabriel Burja
Science speaks volumes. Why? If you have nothing good to say then say nothing at all. Let them run a muck for an answer and you decide for yourself. B God like B Christ like and B the holly spirit which sustains you and B righteous.
Why do political topics come in to the church? Why do religious topics come into politics? Because they ate each other. Snake eating himself.
God gave us free will and yet again through Jesus but His will was for all to return to God.
The works and teachings of Jesus all belong to God. God wants us all to find our way back to Him. He prefers that you do it through Jesus Christ, because otherwise you stand judgement.
God said YOU ARE GUILTY and I am done with you. Jesus Christ says but father I believe that if I explain to them that only through your way they can be saved otherwise they become self destructive and all around them will die they might understand me if I show them love the way you thought me and patience that through my suffering and theirs they will want to change and make life blossom again.
The fleshly pleasures lead to premature death. Destruction comes from a corrupt mind which would be your north pole. Think talk the clock is ticking. It's all over. I have come to collect. My blood stays and the rest go. Did you eat of my flesh? Did you drink of my blood? I did it for you. This time I am not going to be nice unless you repay me.
Would you live for me? or would you die for me?
The answer is simple.
Regardless, the choice was yours now it no longer is.
Hello strangers. Remember that thorny crown you gave me? Oh the vinegar? and that cross as if you have not done enough to show me your hatred.
Father forgets but I forget not. What you did you will have done. I loved you as my father had. Yet your loyalty was to my enemy.
I live mind body and spirit. I am here in the flesh. As I was the second one I have come the second time. Add them up and know that I was 4 you.
Now I am against you, who deny me, those who shame me, those who keep secrets.
You will not see me.
48-)
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Shirley J. Davis
I've noticed people quoting the Bible to hurt others. I wonder what God would say. He expressed over and over for us to love each other as ourselves not to put each other down. Such behavior gives a loving caring God a bad name and makes His name stink in the nostrils of non-belivers. God did NOT say anywhere that we have any right to take over His role as Judge. We must love and accept each other. Its an order straight from the lips of Jesus! Let me express my love for my gay and transgender brothers and sisters. May God richly bless and protect you. Rev. Shirley Davis
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Brother John
Shirley said, "Such behavior gives a loving caring God a bad name and makes His name stink in the nostrils of non-believers." Take a whiff of God's version of love and acceptance in the link below. It does stink, doesn't it? Notice that most of the slaughter (God's judgement) was carried out by "believers" at God's command, contrary to your statement, "God did NOT say anywhere that we have any right to take over His role as Judge."
http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=21
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Brother John
Almost two weeks have passed and not a single Christian has stepped up to defend their "kind, loving and forgiving God" by explaining the cruelty and mass killings at God's hand either directly or at his/her/it's command as per their Holy Bible.
After a thorough reading of the Bible, it's impossible to think of the biblical God as anything other than Dawkin's description……...“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
For those believing that God and Jesus are the same entity, then the above goes for Jesus as well.
I, for one, am sick of reading glorious proclamations about the One and Only, all Loving, all Forgiving God of the Bible when there are a plethora of biblical examples to the contrary. Actions speak louder than words. I think there were around 20 examples in the link I posted above. Here are a few more for those who may think those were anomalies. The linked information includes book, chapter and verse, making it easy to verify.
http://www.holysmoke.org/hs00/killer2.html
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Rev. Ron Freeman
shiely;somw of what you say is true ,because of peoplle like you and me and those jn the past of who you take about and the past .ITS CALLED 'FREE WILL' from GOD.yes man is .bloodthirsty,etc.,because of the FREE WILL I"gay,a vet, of 6yrs.11mos.and 17daysand i do have some some trouble with transgender thing'''''???.p.s. i like HOLY SMOKE AND I NEVER DID SMOKE.so you smoke that ron,.
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Ken Dixon
Here's the "transgender thing" in a nutshell. Some people are transgender, and the vast majority are not. Those of us who are transgender have known for quite some time (seven decades in my case). Those who are not transgender either learn what it means, understand it and move on OR waste a lot of time telling us we're wrong and how God's going to get us for being who we are. Some see us as part of vast conspiracies and agendas working to destroy everything that's good and pure. Sometimes that's entertaining to read, but it's also sad in a way to see the wondrous and capable human mind so constricted by prejudice and bias.
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Brother John
I was able to decipher most of your cryptic post, ron, but working on your syntax and spelling (plus a thorough proof reading before hitting the Post Comment button) would help you reach a wider audience and avoid misunderstandings. For example…. "I”gay,a vet, of 6yrs.11mos.and 17daysand i do have some some trouble with transgender thing””’???" ??? for sure.
I've heard the "FREE WILL" excuse many times. The links I posted contained many examples of God directly slaughtering it's creations, but there are also a number of instances of humans using violence and cruelty against one another at God's command. They could have used their FREE WILL to disobey God (and especially those claiming to represent God) by simply respecting one of God's own commandments (thou shalt not kill) and/or reminding God that his believers want to portray him as loving, kind and forgiving to help their recruiting process.
I suppose the fact that humans can be bloodthirsty is further proof that God created man in his own image.
I won't be holding my breath for a logical, intelligent response to my Sept. 22 post, but may well present a similar challenge to overt misrepresentations of God's brutal relationship with it's creations.
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Rev. Ron Freeman
ken,thank you,I"am not one to say you are wrong. GOD DOSE NOT MAKE MISTAKES....He loves you for you.remember that all i am before GOD is all that i am and nothing more..KEN,I send you my love in CHRIST,i was a monk for a number of years so i know a little...GOD BLESS YOU KEN...ron
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Shirley J. Davis
I feel God loves every human no matter who or what they claim to be or love. I wish people would understand that all humans and any other creatures God has created are equal in His eyes. We must all learn to Love Our Neither As Ourselves or else we all perish. Why do you all think God sent His Son Jesus? For only the ones who were perfect or who believed or acted a certain way? Jesus Himself that He had come not to the people who professed to be perfect but to all humankind everywhere despite who they were. Wow. I wish I could be as loving and giving and selfless as Jesus. Maybe someday.
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Brother John
The God you're referring to is the Christian god and one of many, Shirley. The belief that this one is "The One and Only God" is based on the culture/family into which "believers" were born. Had Christians been born in Afghanistan or Iraq they would believe Allah is the only true god. Here's a list of some of the deities people believe(d) in and worship(ed).
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -- Stephen Henry Roberts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_deities
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Brother Frank
Hi Everyone and thanks Tom. I do believe in the word of the bible. I also believe God Loves us all. God created us and will judge us when the time comes. Being Gay-Transgender may trouble some. But God in his wisdom will treat them no different to all that have sinned.
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Dan
Putting a hood ornament on a Pinto doesn't make it a Rolls Royce. Dyeing my skin green doesn't make me a reptile. Men are men and women are women no matter how much surgery they have done, or what kind of clothing they wear. For a woman to identify as a man is as wrong as a man identifying as a Buick. It is simply incorrect.
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AEL
Is it incorrect to judge others?
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Jerome
I find the readings very interesting everyone's views. I feel that far too long people have been labeled in one way or other . Good or evil. However I find that there is good and evil everywhere you go. When we talk about the bible and other religious books and teachings many times what comes to the fore are opinions and motives . Religious and politics have no business together. But we do it non the less. I see God as love so I believe that is what religion should be about . Let's preach love and not hate of all gods children!
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Brother John
Surely you don't mean the God in the attached link, do you, Jrome? How can anyone see this God as love? I encourage all "believers" in a kind, loving and forgiving God to read through the list and verify them in whatever version of the Bible they believe is the correct one. These are not "opinions", they are scripture.
http://www.holysmoke.org/hs00/killer2.html
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Tom
Can we please stop telling others what to do? If you are right with your God, that is all that matters. Whatever anyone else does has no affect on your own personal relationship with your Creator.
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AEL
Seems like telling others what to do.
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DELORIS WILLIAMS
I am Christian - non-denominational. There are so many issues being discussed and defined by politics and political correctness, but I believe that ultimately as spiritual leaders we should be defined by our faith. Our spiritual beliefs. I try very hard to go through life respecting the rights and lives of others. Not because I am lesbian, transgendered, etc. But because I cannot judge any man or woman, all I can do is live my life as an offering of the beliefs that I have. I can't preach about God's love, grace, and mercy then choose whom I am willing to show those aspects to. "Judge not lest we be judged" there are no perfect beings on this planet and no one walking the holiest path according to God's word (bear in mind that self-righteousness is a sin too). We have all sinned and fallen short of Glory, it is just that some people's sins are more apparent. I believe that God loves all mankind, but He hates our sin. We are taught to love all, then we ridicule them for their sins.
Don't get me wrong, I do not want males using the same public restrooms that I and my grand-daughters use. But this is not a religious reason but a personal safety one. Truthfully I welcome all into my congregation because I want all to hear the word of God and be exposed to His mercy and forgiveness. I prefer that everyone receive His word than be lost in the wilderness, for I believe that this is what God would have me do. For I would rather be judged by the actions of my heart than the rigid convictions of my mind.
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Walter Green
Let's look at the underlying reason we hate transgendered and gay people - because a religious text theoretically several thousand years old tells us to. That makes all the sense in the world, when you consider that one of functions of religions was to delineate who was of a certain tribe, nation, people. A gay or transgendered person violated two critical norms of these societies (understanding that the Old Testament is a combination of theology revealed, in the view of Jews and Christians, by their god, stories that establish internal political norms, and social laws designed to protect and grow the population). Gays and transgendered did not have children, in other words future taxpayers, future soldiers, and future contributors to a growth economy. Secondly, they did not insure their own old age because they did not create families with a network of children that would care for them. Neither contributed to the defense and growth of the people. Common throughout ancient societies is the theme of having sons who could work the land and that could go off to war, and the ancient Hebrews lived in a near constant state of war with powerful peoples who surrounded them. The Hebrew god probably did not give a hoot about gays or transgendered people, but the men who wrote down that god's word certainly did. It is always easier to hate people who are different from you and if the messengers of your god tell you to, it has the added benefit of feeling good about it.
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Paul Salvatore
Good comment Walter!
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Ken Dixon
I have a suspicion (without any basis in fact whatsoever) that the antipathy may run deeper still. In our earliest days, when we were still far more animal than human, would it have been our instinct to marginalize those pack or tribe members we sensed were weak and would or could not advance the species?
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Carrie
In the centuries before the birth of monotheistic religions those who were gay or transgender were considered "two spirit" people. One foot on earth one in the realm of the divine. They were priests, priestesses, councilors, regents, consorts and even rulers. They were the special beings of this world, not being completely from it. There was no fear or hatred of them, there was respect and reverance. I have always refused the idea of monotheism in all its insubstantial forms. They don't preach love they preach hate. The hate comes from self loss, self loathing and, in many forms the attempt to drive away the inner demons they seem to have. I love humanity, it is fun to watch, but it is becoming more and more destructive and self destructive.
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Brother John
I remain skeptical and suspicious of the men who supposedly channeled and transcribed "God's word", mostly based on dreams and visions, and equally, if not more, skeptical about the men who promote them as great prophets.
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Paul
John 3:16 says all that we need to know: "God so loved the world..." Not Baptists, not Mormons, not any specific group - the WORLD. God loves everyone so why do we exclude so many races and religions and sexual orientations? John 3:16 goes on to say that salvation is available to anyone (again, no exclusions) that "whosoever believes in Him" will have everlasting life. There is so much worship of the God of Hate these days. We forget the fundamental message from God - Love the world, which includes everyone.
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Brother John
Your opening was great Paul, but the follow up excludes billions of people, all God's creation, who were born into cultures and families that are not Christian. As many millions, probably billions, of people have not read the Bible (including many "Christians), the salvation you speak of is not available to them if one of the requirements ("whosoever believes in Him") is not fulfilled.
So which is it? Does God love the entire world including Atheists, Pagans, Muslims and Jews or only those who believe in "Him" (which I assume is Jesus)?
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Brian Bell
GOD HATES SIN NOT THE SINNER. JESUS SAYS SIN NO MORE John 8.1Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. 2And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. 3And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
God bless and trust in Jesus
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Brother John
Thanks for the cut and paste Bible lesson, Brian. Understand that this is not a Christian group and some of us do not accept the Bible as the only truth or the inerrant "word of God". Here's a cut and paste from the ULC Mission Statement.
"We have made it our mission to actualize these tenets in the world by empowering millions of ministers, whether they come to us from a Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Jewish, Catholic, Shinto, Agnostic, Atheist, Pagan, Wiccan, or Druid tradition, to speak their own truth to power."
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Dan
Someone asked for references from religious works.
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Thomas E Pearson
God loves and will judge us all.
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Richard
I'm all for personal choice, but it gets tricky when transgender people want other folks to go out of their way to accommodate them (like with the bathroom issue). I say we all just live our lives and do our best not to bother other people!
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Rev. Robin Lynn Frank
You want them to live their lives without using bathrooms?
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AEL
To judge is to win. To win is to lose.
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Rev. Robin Lynn Frank
The problem is a human one. We appear to be programmed to to avoid difference. Those we perceive as different, we perceive as less. It would be bad enough if it stopped there, but less becomes unwanted, then evil then sinful. To those who say that one's body was made by God and that no matter what one's mind knew to be true, ought not be changed, I can only ask one question. Did not that same God also create one's mind? Saying that God makes no mistakes in such matters is like saying that those born with physical impairments should not be permitted to correct them. Is that what you really want?
One more thing. I've seen various references to scripture. Why has no one pointed out, "We are all children of the same universe?"
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Brother John
Excellent comment Rev. Robin. This passage from Leviticus 21 may shed some light on your question about disabilities. It looks like it only applies to the descendants of Aaron, whoever they may be.
16 The Lord said to Moses, 17 “Say to Aaron: ‘For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. 18 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; 19 no man with a crippled foot or hand, 20 or who is a hunchback or a dwarf, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. 21 No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the food offerings to the Lord. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. 22 He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; 23 yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the Lord, who makes them holy.’”
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Denise
So many people have a different view of God - I believe He is love - that is it. He loves us no matter how we choose to live, act or portray even Him. He knew from the start what we would do, how we would behave and yet He allowed us into existence. Giving us free will might be something He should have reconsidered but then He wouldn't be who He is! I love God, I love the Universe - I believe all that we have and are we create and only we can judge ourselves for what we do.
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brother leon
The title of this article is off, God does not get anything wrong,Man does. There are many ways people want to view the issue of being gay and how it relates to a religious view. One viewpoint is seen from the binding actions of illicit sex life and the problems it can have on society. If we view ourselves as only this body,and desire only to gratify our senses, sex is one of the most strong desires and for many, enjoyed freely with out thought for what those actions can cause. Many believe that the path to enlightenment is through controlling the senses in order to become free from the binding desires uncontrolled gratification can cause. In this regard sex outside of its designed purpose, producing children, is an action that can carry away the mind and can become the most difficult to control. The human form of life is special in that it is the only form in which the soul can ponder his/her relationship with the supreme creator and to focus ones life in that pursuit takes self control and following the laws to reach that end. This seems to be one of the ages where we don't want to follow rules or we want to get past the thought of God having laws that we may have to follow, however laws are there in many situations whether we like it or not. These are just the opinions of one who has tried to make sense of this world and my relationship to it and my search to become free from so much madness that can draw the attention to all things material. Please forgive me if I offend, that is not my intention I am only sharing thoughts.
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Len Rudnick
It is interesting that Porto-Potties have existed for decades. They are ALL transgender. Where is the outcry? If my religious memory serves me correctly, Adam and Eve had three children, Cain, Able and Seth. All were male. How did society develop from one female and four males? Was one transgender? Was there major inbreeding? The latter would certainly explain the U.S. Congress. It would also help explain the number of Man Made laws attributed to GOD.
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Chrispen juru
Sodom & Gomorrah was destroyed because of such life style.Don't lie or hide with Matthew 7,what judgement are you talking about?Guys fear God & keep His commandments.All the gays,lesbians,homesexuals,drunkers(Sinners) will not inherit the promised land.I'm not saying I'm perfect but let's Preach the proper Gospel.In my culture is very very Taboo to marry a man or woman to marry a woman,even Biblical it's stated.If we proof the Bible to be wrong,it means that we are lost & condemned.Pastors plus don't talk about not judging,preach the Gospel ,to those who believed must be baptised in the Name of the Father ,the Son and the Holy Spirit for the Remission of their Sins.Thats why we are suffering,God has seen our Evil deeds.
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Patricia
I was wondering how many of these I'd have to read before 1 of these Ministers had read the Bible or believed what they read. Why is it that we have to serve everything with sugar to get people to swallow it? The God I serve clearly states: Weather you have parts removed or added you are still having sex with a person of your own gender.. Thank you Chrispen Juru--the Bible should never be left up to our own interpretation!
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AEL
Sorry, can you help me find where this quote in the Bible comes from? "Weather you have parts removed or added you are still having sex with a person of your own gender." Thanks. Also, if "the Bible should never be left up to our own interpretation", then who's interpretation should it be left up to, when things seem ambiguous? Thanks.
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Brother John
Perhaps you didn't read the Mission Statement of the ULC before becoming involved, Chrispen. There are many here who are not Christian and will not "Preach the proper Gospel" as you've advised. Read what's below and be advised that some here (Atheists, Pagans, Wiccans and Druids to name a few) will challenge proselytizing and fundamentalist nonsense. I've also linked a page at the bottom that lists many areas where the Bible is wrong for your enlightenment.
"Our Mission
The Universal Life Church was founded on the basic belief that we are all children of the same universe and, derived from that basic belief, has established two core tenets by which it expects its ministers to conduct themselves:
Do only that which is right. Every individual is free to practice their religion in the manner of their choosing, as mandated by the First Amendment, so long as that expression does not impinge upon the rights or freedoms of others and is in accordance with the government’s laws. We have made it our mission to actualize these tenets in the world by empowering millions of ministers, whether they come to us from a Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Jewish, Catholic, Shinto, Agnostic, Atheist, Pagan, Wiccan, or Druid tradition, to speak their own truth to power. We work tirelessly to ensure that anyone can get ordained online at the ULC Monastery and we seek to fulfill the spiritual needs of as many different groups as we can by offering plenty of information, a wide variety of services, and networking opportunities. The communication and fellowship of our scattered millions of ministers, we believe, is just as valid a form of worship as the weekly services held in some of the world’s more segregated and elitist religious institutions."
Invest some time here regarding the inerrancy and accuracy of the Bible and get back to us.
https://thechurchoftruth.org
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Brother John
Bang on, brother leon. Man gets thing wrong all the time. And men wrote, edited and interpreted the Bible. The belief that we humans are "special" has resulted in hubris that is both irrational and a threat to all life on our planet.
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Dee
Amen, Melanie. Dee
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Melanie Wilson
I am constantly disappointed by all the hate and negativity I see in these comments, fed by "traditional" "religions". Really? On this page? This is a place for support and liberation. Leave the old, sad, tired, hateful ideas behind. Please.
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Brother John
I guess you weren't here for some of the hard core fundamentalist rants (mary, for example), Melanie. I left this forum because of the hatred and ignorance of people like her, but find many more intelligent, thoughtful comments than in the past. This is an open forum. Feel free to challenge any comments that aren't in line with the spirit of the ULC.
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Rev Jass Godly
If this beautiful church of ours can be a platform to bring traditional thinkers and those with more modern outlooks together in constructive discussion how wonderful is that? I look for the inspirational and open hearted posts Melanie, you might like to do the same. I also look for the commonalities in our Spirituality, acorss all belief systems, to use as rays of hope for the future.
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Bro Min.CLARENCE MUHAMMAD
The Lifestyle is not Acceptable with Allah God so we must follow his Law and still treat them with kindness and remember we are working on complete submission . Remember Allah Often
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Ken Dixon
I turned 75 in July, and I'm bemused by the fact that so many people presume to know me and to judge me based solely upon the fact that I'm transgender. I've been well aware of my condition since age six but kept it secret for decades after somehow sensing that I was supposed to be ashamed. Be that as it may, I've managed to have a full and productive life, sustain a long-term marriage and leave a legacy of children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren. I'm an military veteran, a person of faith but not doctrine and a firm believer in leaving nothing left unsaid and no one left unloved. At this stage of my life, if anyone wants to focus upon my transgender status to the exclusion of all else, I have no time for such nonsense. You want to make pronouncements regarding my sinfulness, mental condition, "lifestyle", etc.? Save your breath. I put my life story in book form to benefit others, but otherwise I don't discuss that aspect of my being. It's no one's business, and to presume you can educate me on something I've lived with for this long and studied for years is the height of arrogance, in my opinion.
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Brother John
The height of arrogance indeed, Ken, and with a heaping helping of hypocritical judgement often in the mix.
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Rev Jass Godly
Ken Thank you so much for this post. I am sure it will touch the hearts and minds of others just as it has mine.
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Penny
. We are each unique, and we each have a special purpose. Is it to obscure to think that a transgender individual was also created in Gods vision? Why is it so difficult for brothers and sisters of faith to accept anything different then what they are? WE ARE ALL GODS CHILDREN! Lets try loving instead of judging.
Romans 14:13 Therefore let us stop judging one another. Instead make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brothers way.
And lets not forget...
Judge not that ye be not judged.
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LaGenia Bailey
Good morning everyone......My spiritual teacher...Master Choa Kok Sui of pranic healing replied to this questions about GLBT folks....."the soul is sexless" sometimes it experiences the female body, sometimes the male. Souls recognize souls" It may be that transgender folks have such memories of being the other gender in a past life that it feels intolerable not being that gender. I support the souls growth. We are not the body, thoughts or emotions. Let it be.....
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Brother John
That's an interesting possibility, LaGenia. Thank you for your comment. Only taking one trip around the wheel of life then off to eternal bliss (based on what you believe) is wishful thinking at best.
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Rev.Michael White
The Bible clearly states don't Judge least you be judged. The best thing to do is to live your life to the best, not worry as much about your neighbors, directly. If you do, pray for them. After all, Love your neighbors as yourself. So if you hate something in your neighbor, is it really something in yourself you don't like. A little deep for this early in the morning. Rev. Michael White
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Stephen Waters
Amen!
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Shirley J. Davis
I wholeheartedly agree, amen!
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Chris Durham
Trans-gender is so last century, trans-species is the next hot topic. I've never truly felt human.
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Kirk
Personally, I don't really care, but I worry that an aging transgender that has male genitalia and female hormone induced breasts will try to have a conversation while naked with my young daughters like he did with me in the men's locker room should he choose to use the girls locker room on a different day! As far as Catholics are concerned i.e. you don't just call a priest to get an exorcism performed. There are a lot of steps to go through to prove that someone isn't just in need of mental care, a house isn't just creaky, or whatever first. Same with transgenders, they are in a difficult position since current psychiatry sees them as having body dysphoria. The same mental issue as an anorexic person that's really skinny, but thinks they are fat. Since there isn't anything in the Bible about transgenderism, the Church doesn't really have to have a stance. If it is determined that a person was born with the wrong parts, then a man that truly thinks he is a woman, isn't engaging in homosexual behavior specially after gender reassignment surgery. A high percentage of gender reassignment patients do commit the sin of suicide because friends, family and even some strangers don't accept them. Another religion may see this consternation of the soul that results as a karma issue that the individual must live through in order to move on to the next phase. Perhaps it is God's way of teaching us all a lesson, for each of us individually. So long as you follow the golden rule, you should be ok in the eyes of God even if that means you accept the fact that not everybody has to accept you, because sometimes love is tough. I spoke to my girls about the situation above, they said it would be extremely awkward, but agreed that they should treat everybody with love and respect. I still don't want them to face that situation anymore than seeing a friend of theirs' brains on the ground like I saw my friend's brains on the ground. Just remember the Golden Rule people! Love and forgiveness!!
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Pastor B Stevens
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Paster Quinn
Nice to see that the first three comments here are uplifting and positive. None of us have the right to impose morality nor pass judgment. By now many of us have people in our lives who are Transgender. They have a difficult path ahead for a multiude of reasons, with me, they have sanctuary and a no-judgement zone.
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Don
All people are God's children and deserve, as such, to be loved, respected and welcomed into whichever style of religious worship which they choose. It is not my place to judge God's children. Rev. Don
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Brother John
Hundreds of millions of fundamentalists from various religions disagree with you, Don. The solution is to have rational thought, empathy for others and education eliminate religious dogma. Sadly, this probably won't be happening in the near future.
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Maiane santo santos
The media is supporting the problem, it would /could be a non issue, as for unnatural, what? They were born bearing parts externally that doesn't jibe with their internal feelings, but you know what I call unnatural, an extremely obese person, either gender and their extremely obese children again either gender, belly up to the counter at any fast food place, in any city, buying enough crappy food that would feed Patton and his corps in one setdown, that is unnatural.
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Carrie
Let me state that I like and appreciate your comments. Transgender people were once considered "Two Spirit" people and were considered to have one foot in the realm of the divine. The first gender reassignment surgery done in the U.S. was done in a Catholic hospital. I am transgender and a minister. I see, as I always have, that faith is a very personal thing and it should be respected as such. Condemning anyone for not thinking, feeling, expressing, praying or living as you do makes you the sinner, not them. Love and respect for the individual are what make any society great. Belittling those that are different drags the whole of society down. This country is supposed to stand for freedom and defense of the individual rights we all have. Transgender people have fought and died defending this country and, because of the lethal dose of poison being injected into the hearts of some, we are dying in greater numbers than ever. We are here, we have always been here and we will always be here.
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Carolyn L Smith
Thank you for the remembrance of History. I am one. I have beencelibate for decades. Endeavor to love as you are loved. This is about elevating Society. We have so much more in common than we could ever have a part. Much love! And in the African tradition Gye Nayme. In the Asian traditional Chun Ji Kiun. In American Praise God. Not to bore you there are endless languages that praise. Please love one another as you are loved. Because you cannot cause your breath to breathe. You cannot cause your heart to be. It is a love greater than all of us!
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Brother John
I've enjoyed reading many of your comment, cary, and agree with most of what you say. But I don't agree that "condemning anyone for not thinking, feeling, expressing, praying or living as you do makes you the sinner, not them." Without condemning bigotry, racism and other forms of ignorance they will continue to exist and flourish.
"He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it."
"The hope of a secure and livable world lies with disciplined nonconformists who are dedicated to justice, peace and brotherhood." Martin Luther King, Jr.
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John
I say treat them with love and respect.
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Dr. Tinsley Keefe
I am transgendered and atheist. Today my wife's parents physically attacked me in our home simply for being transgendered. They took one of my children with them. My wife did nothing and pretty much supported their actions, as they all hate me for being transgendered. I believe that religion, regardless of the gender issue, is outdated and archaic and unnecessary. I believe that religion comes from cultures that are uneducated and superstitious, and science has continually provided us with real explanations for things that we have not previously understood. It is very sad that my relationship with my wife and her parents will likely know I'll be gone, simply because I am transgendered. Wow. Just wow.
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Rev Deborah Dunkle (Rayvyn Wolfsong.
I am so sorry that your wife and her family feel that way Tinsley. As a woman it must really hurt you deeply to be shunned and set aside like you are no longer a parent or partner. My prayers are with you my sister. I have seen so much of the same lost a wife and one of my daughters to the inability to accept who I am. Fortunately my other three daughters have come to love me as I am and their children call me dadma. Smile. Feel free to email me and we can talk if you want. Blessed Be
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Timothy Forrestet
No matter what your life style is, your human and I believe that as God still loves you, so we must do the Same? I wish you the best in life, and by no means let anyone put you down, cause you are loved
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Rev James
Well I can see why you would be upset with your families reaction just because you are transgender and you would want to be treated as any other person, this is cool. What is not cool is that you want to label all religion in a negative because things don't suit you, come on now let us look at an interpretation of normal behaviour in the eyes of the Christians I know, it is simple, treat others as you would have them treat you whether you agree with their politics or sexuality people are entitled to their opinions and to live their life for their happiness and wellbeing, not to suit everyone else's. I don't particularly agree with different sexual approaches to my own but I do care about people, my friends and family of which there is a very mixed bag of beliefs and sexual orientation but they are all the same people to me and all get treated the same, no question. I wish you well and only hope you find a good circle of friends who treat you properly.
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Subhashini Masih
If you are an atheist than it will be very difficult to convince you on the line of God's commands in Bible ,as the nature of such person is very near to dogmatic.
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Tony Clark
Dr Tinsley I am so sorry for what has happened, as a parent regardless of what gender a parent is the fact still remains YOU MY FRIEND ARE A PARENT.... Do not let or do not allow fearful people to take that away from you. Your comments about religion is an unfair one, yes science has taught us a lot about different things some good and some not so good, your situation is case in point. Science has dictated that being different is not a good thing for situations they deem to be important at the time. But just as some quote the bible with partial segments, so has science, and that creates a doubtful and fearful situation. Ask your in-laws to live as their opposite for even just a week, Live, dress, utilize a restroom etc. Without professional help as transgender people do everyday, then ask them if its an un- natural thing that they feel living as something they are not. Please hold your head high, and do not allow others to take away from your happiness do to their fear or being labeled. I can tell you this; G^d does exist (and no I'm not pushing my religion on you, I accept your belief) and so does Jesus, Science has also proven that, and Most Scholars agree on this matter. Please do not allow others who fear to add to the already stressful situation you lives with daily. G^d Bless
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Ellen M. Santistevan
Dr. Keefe, I am so sorry to hear this happened to you. It is too bad that your wife did not love your soul as much as your body; on the other hand, now the door is open for you to find a truly authentic mate, one who can love you for who you are and not for what your birth dictated. Transitions are (or can be) very hard on the entire family if not approached with an open heart and a lot of love.
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Brother John
You are correct in believing that "religion comes from cultures that are uneducated and superstitious", Tinsley. "Wow" is one of many reactions that rational, intelligent people have when confronted with Bronze Age mumbo jumbo in the 21st century. I've had a number of Wow moments just reading through the comments on this post alone. You mentioned religion a few times in your comment. Do your in-laws think of themselves as Christians?
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Pastor B Stevens
And should I examine anyone's life and point out all the things I disagree with ? Force them to accept only my ideals ? Forc them to act contrary to how they feel inside ? For you that can't stop thinking what's between their legs it's simply none of your business no more than would you like everyone watching you preform sex with your wife , boyfriend , husband whatever . Transgender are for the larger part living how they feel inside . For the ones transforming from male to female physically they are already there spiritually . I'm not gay nor trans I'm married to my wife for 23 years I'm a pastor been in the service since 1983 . I've studied society's people both bad , good in between . I have had gay friends my entire life back when they had to hide because I don't judge that's not my job or position spiritually . I'm sick to death hearing certain groups of belief state , We love the trans and gay community but we hate their sin . Yet they still public ally attack them why because it brings attention to their hate train . They seek out other hateful people then hit them up in their congregation for income . It's sickening seeing all the Hippocrates all over the world. In our country it's now legal for gay couples to marry and that's their right so get over it . It's time to start healing not creating such hate simply to gain political gains as well as monetary . Every person gay straight trans gender all need spirituality they need their higher power and acceptance . I grew up in the 60s listened to my elders speak of other races like they were animals in the Deep South . It repulsed me then as much even more today . We as a race must consentrate on building a better society not tear down what little freedoms we all share . No trans people don't bother me at all in fact the few I personally know are the funniest sweetest people we know . If your a Christian and your spreading hatred and that becomes violence your a Hippocrates all of you ! Try helping people instead and that does not mean attempt to turn them straight it means love them and treat them as you would anyone else . Does not matter who your higher power may be that's your choice and I respect that as much as I respect others inner being . Pastor Brenten Stevens
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Timothy Forrestet
I believe that in the old Testament, we read in Gensis the 1st chapter, that God creased this earth all all that's in it, and in his own engage he creased Male & Female. Not man for man, or women for women. I also believe that the Media and most People are causing a great deal of hardship on the LGT& Transgender people more harm then understanding: even though most Religion teach against Gay sex, but they also lose the fact that the Bible teaches us to LOVE. That to me means we are to live all man and women, no matter who they are or what their life style is. Always remember when Christ was on the Cross for you and me; he looked into heaven and said? FATHER FORGIVE THEM, FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO. Instead of hatred and mal is, look to the Bible and Pray that God will guide you in the right path. And Pray for your brother and sister's. In the Name of Christ Jesus.
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Dr. David
Timothy-
First, Christ did not speak for all of us on the cross, but for those that believe in him. Please do not try to put your beliefs on me.
Second, the Bible was written by man and according to you Christ asked forgiveness for their errors. The people writing Genesis were try to attract a certain group of people so it is written that way.
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Brother John
…… Third, there are no extant eyewitness accounts of the crucifixion or resurrection of Jesus, the heart of Christianity. The Gospels were written anonymously, years and decades after the events they purportedly chronicle. No one knows what Jesus said, or how much of the Gospels are true and accurate. There are many errors and contradictions amongst them. The bulk of the Bible is plagiarized from earlier writings and beliefs and edited by men as recruiting material.
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Timothy Forrestet
When Christ was on the Cross he spoke the words, that said Father forgive them, they know not what they do? I believe that those words still stand for us today, and as far as my beliefs; I don't try to push them on anyone, I must say what God lays on my heart. Yes the Bible was written by men, but these men where led by the Holy spirit reviled to them from God. You have the right to believe as you wish, and I have that same right. My prayers go out to you, and to let you know no matter what you believe, God still loves you, and so do I.
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Brother John
We're all entitled to our own beliefs as long as we're not forcing them on others, Timothy. But we're not entitled to our own facts. For example, no one knows what Jesus said on the cross as there are no extant eyewitness accounts. Here's a video of Dr. Bart Ehrman, one of the world's most respected New Testament scholars. He qualifies some of his credentials at the start, but you can do your own research regarding his credentials. At the 3:00 minute mark, he addresses the crucifixion. I encourage you to watch the next part of his lecture (as well as doing your own research as he suggests) titled "Who Wrote the Gospels" as well. Many of Dr. Ehrman's lectures are available online for those interested in well researched facts rather than dogmatic beliefs.
With easy access to knowledge via the internet, there's no excuse for presenting beliefs as facts, untruths as truth or fables as history.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_EHDMVLXGw&list=PL3EA6BA0C3D8F8E19&index=2
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Dark Gray
I've listened to some of Dr. Ehrman's lectures, and I haven't been impressed. He seems intellectually dishonest to me.
For one thing, he talks about how important it is to have multiple sources, which is sensible enough, I guess. But then he plays this little game. He discards some Biblical passages he doesn't like because they're found in only one source. He discards others he doesn't like because, even though they're in multiple places, they're too similar, so they obviously come from a single source.
But then, when he comes across an event from two sources that are not identical, he says, "Now wait a minute! It say this here, but it says that there -- they don't agree! WHAT'S GOING ON HERE?!" and out it goes -- obviously fraudulent. So you're damned if your sources agree, and you're damned if they disagree. You just can't win, unless you're Bart Ehrman.
Oh, and he also lectures us on what an "historical fact" is. The Crucifixion, he says, can never, ever be declared to be an historical fact, no matter how much proof one produces. Why not? Because people don't rise from the dead! It doesn't happen! So no, it can never be determined to be an historical fact.
Now, the Bible has plenty of problems with it, but Dr. Ehrman just muddies the waters with his flawed analyses, in my opinion. (Sorry, Brother J, I'm really not picking on you, but Dr. Ehrman gets me steamed.)
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Brother John
I've always been a skeptic and will remain so, Dark Gray. I trust Dr. Ehrman's decades of research, including his ability to access and read ancient Greek manuscripts, over simple, sometimes uninformed, opinions and beliefs, including some of those we read here. I'm not sure what your beliefs are, but I can understand why hard core "believers" would get steamed listening to his lectures. They're all free to disprove his decades of dedicated research if they disagree.
The most important points he makes, in my mind, are……
There are no original manuscripts of the Bible. None.
Extant manuscripts are all copies, of copies, of copies…… many of them mere fragments.
The copied (over and over again) manuscripts that exist were written decades and centuries after the events they chronicle and are not eyewitness accounts.
They contain thousands of errors and contradictions when compared, with the most errors amongst the oldest copies.
The only conclusions I can reach, based not just on Dr. Ehrman's research, are simple.
The Bible is not "the living word of God", as is often claimed. It was written by men, for men.
The Bible is not inerrant. There are thousands of errors and contradictions in the extant manuscripts. These errors were then passed on century after century, and included in other copies and remain in the current versions of the Bible.
FYI, I don't necessarily like Dr. Ehrman's speaking style or his lame attempts at humour, but cut him some slack as he is a lifelong academic. I do, however, respect his knowledge, as should everyone seeking Truth, no matter how uncomfortable it may be compared to our beliefs.
I have no issues with the resurrection story or those about God. They are both ExtraTerrestrial, supernatural entities, along with the angels, Satan and the rest. Can humans be resurrected? Nope. How about ET's? Probably.
And no worries….. I don't feel "picked on" at all.
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Rev Deborah Dunkle (Rayvyn Wolfsong.
Amen and Blessed Be Rev Stephens.
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G. Norman
It sounds like you believe in mans feelings more than the word of GOD!!!
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Elehshua
At that time, the two weren't always mutually exclusive. Just some food for thought...
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Dr. David
Pastor Stevens-
Thank you for your views, they are right on. I also agree with you that most Christians have turned to hate instead of love and are trying to divide instead of unite all of us. To have clergy like you is wonderful, if only there were more.
Thank you again for your honest views on a difficult topic.
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Brother John
It seems as though there is much Christian hatred and most of it is dredged up from the Old Testament rather than the teaching of their proclaimed Saviour. Why are so many "CHRISTians" quoting the Torah as the basis for their beliefs and God's laws instead of focusing on the teachings of Jesus, the namesake of their religion?
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Christopher Holloway
I am Muslim and I am firmly against transgender, lesbian, gay way of life. I am against it because the Qur'an and Bible express that it's a sin to accept that way of lifestyle. God created man and women to be together. Male and female is the correct way that we are to live. I ask that people don't take this that a Muslim is homophobic. There is a difference in homophobia and just believing that it's wrong due to their faith and upbringing. I also sit at that if they a couple chooses to led a life of gay, lesbian then I leave it alone because God will judge them on their sinful lifestyle. Just like He will me because I am not perfect either. Non of us are. I hope I have cleared up my concerns of this topic. The moral question is "what does God say"?
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Dee
Chris. Being gay or Lesbian is not a choice. You are born as such. Dee
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Rev. Ron Freeman
thank you GOD does not make mistakes... RON F......
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angel
Well, I look at it like this. The ancient texts say's alot of things, many of which possess a contradiction to one another. One of which is to "love thy neighbor". There is no real explanation on who your neighbor is, but many accept it to be everyone. There is also no stipulations on who to love and who to not love. It is assumed to love everyone. You may not agree with the lifestyle of the decisions that these people make. And they may not agree with your stance on it, which makes you united in your "ununitedness", for lack of a better term. Perhaps the point of love is not just learning to love those who are the same as ourselves, but to learn to love those who are different, for this is where the seed of love is truely sown. It also reflects our ability to love. God speaks of unconditional love, but isn't it conditional when we only love those who follow within our own morality? So how do we achieve this? By pushing ourselves beyond what we currently know to be truth. If God loves us all and calls us to love all, wouldn't this include those we despise? What if you were drowning and a man pulled you out of the water, gave you CPR, would you not appreciate what he has done? Would you not feel a connection to this person? What if you found out he was gay? Would that change? I so, why? And what if you found out he knew you didn't like gay people, yet he pushed passed his own prejudice because that prejudice no longer mattered, your life at that moment was the only thing that mattered. You don't have to like or agree with it, but perhaps the point is pushing past this agreement in order to find common ground. If we can't do it here, what makes us think we will be able to do it i heaven? Do you really believe God will just miraculously change our hearts? No, because it will defeat the whole purpose on why we are here. It would also take away our own freewill. It would take away your choice to believe in what you do now,just as it would take away others choices. It would strip who we are and be clones,slaves. Anyway's, it's this division that unites us as human beings, and THAT is the point! . Anyway's, just some food for thought.
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Angel
The differences in the world is in a song. Be you. stop Judgments.
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Barbara Wojciak
God makes everything simple. Always love your neighbor as yourself. To label someone else as "sinful" is not showing love. It is judging. And God also makes this simple: Judge not lest you be judged.
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Dr. David
Often I hear or read "religious" people stating that it "says in the holy book" the homosexuals and transgender people are sinful and what they do is wrong. They never cite direct verses from the teachings of their savior. I cannot find anywhere the Jesus Christ states unequivocally that it is sinful or wrong. As I have not spent much time studying other holy books I cannot comment on those.
I do find Chris enlightening in that he only writes for his personal beliefs and does not put his beliefs on the rest of us. He understands we all have a choice, something that seems to be lacking in most Christians.
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AEL
There is this from Leviticus: "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death." But that seems to be full of ambiguity. So only an interpretation by an individual (via judging) could make it possibly apply to any instance of a specific actual situation. Again, to judge is to win, and to win is to lose.
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Brian Bell
BIBLE VERSES SHOWING GOD LOVES THE SINNER BUT FINDS THEIR SIN AN ABOMINATION Leviticus 20:13: "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." Romans 1. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. 28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 1 Timothy 1.8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me. JESUS SAID THIS Mark 10. 6 “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’ 7 ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, 8 and the two will become one flesh.’So they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” 1 corinthians 6. 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God I LOVE THE SINNERS AND PRAY FOR THEIR SALVATION BUT I HATE THEIR EVIL ACTS THEY ARE NOT BORN GAY ITS A CHOICE. REPENT CHANGE AND FIND PEACE IN JESUS OUR ONLY CHANCE OF SALVATION
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Melanie Wilson
wrong
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Tony Clark
Brian please do not twist words! Mankind does not mean in the context in which you are twisting it, Mankind is all humans, and if you wish to post in your favor to your point PLEASE post the ENTIRE segment of the scriptures, not just what you want someone to believe. It is a shame that there is so much focus on what others may do behind closed doors, as a christian you should (1) Follow the TEN laws G^D has set forth for us all. (2) Love your neighbors, and do not judge unless ye be judged, (3) Most Importantly Accept Jesus as your savior so you may rest in the kingdom of G^d. Why is it that some humans hold on to what is less important than Loving G^d, and Jesus??? I do not understand the concept, of others want to be in someone else business. Does G^d tell us to condemn others? NO! Please STOP Judging out of fear or hate then utilize Christianity as the excuse to do so, remember G^d created everyone and he is the only one who can do so. Enough is Enough, Love your neighbors. G^d Bless
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Jhean W.
Nothing that you have quoted here was spoken by Jesus. It was mostly Paul's writings - who never actually heard Jesus speak. And if you look at his history he started out being a very legalistic and overbearing Pharisee who then converted to Christianity but didn't change his overall attitude about things - he just transposed it to "Christian" teachings. As a Jew he wanted to tell people what they couldn't do and as a Christian he wanted to tell people what they couldn't do. Your argument is invalid.
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Nij
Brian. You quote the scriptures and people say you are judging. To judge means to form an opinion about something. The same people that think you are wrong are just as wrong because now they are formulating an opinion (judging) about you because you are simpling saying what the scripture says. Who can ever be right? The Word of God has already judged and you have only quoted His judgment. Maintain the standard brother. And noticing wrongdoing and offering correction is LOVE. Why do people think love means silence towards wrongdoing? That is hate, not love. We do it to our children, spouses and any one else we TRULY care about. Withholding truth is hatred, not love.
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Patrick Bryan
I find to many irregularities in bible verses..Yes according to scripture it states homosexuality is an abomination but then the scriptures also states that everyone is a child of God and he that believeth in God shall have eternal life..there is no segregation of race, lifestyle or belief..Because in the end only God has the last and final word..That is his judgement and only his..As Christians we need to let God do his job and we need to focus on our family, friends and neighbors..We may not have to preach the gospel, but our actions will speak stronger.
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Julia Perez
It amazes me to see all the hatred toward a group of individuals yet claim to be Christians. I am a lesbian however I live alone and have not had any intimate relationship in 20 years. I am a retired nurse and am disabled and 62 years of age. The actions that go on behind the bedroom door is NO BODY's BUSINESS except the ones behind the door. There are many heterosexual couples that involve themselves in intimate situations that fall outside of what our society would classify that behavior as deviant yet no one judges them and spends hours writing up a sermon about how horrible they are. Look, stay out of other peoples bedrooms unless you are invited. Otherwise your assumptions are just speculation. Even if the individual states that they have had a homosexual experience, by your giving any response back is judgmental and NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS!
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AEL
It is interesting to me what Nij wrote September 8, 2016 at 1:47 pm. I guess that comment level is too deep to comment on it directly so I do it here.
[Nij wrote:] "...And noticing wrongdoing and offering correction is LOVE. Why do people think love means silence towards wrongdoing? That is hate, not love. We do it to our children, spouses and any one else we TRULY care about. Withholding truth is hatred, not love."
Nij, perhaps you can clarify, but here is what I think I hear you are saying or implying: 1. To judge is to love. 2. To love in silence is to hate. 3. To offer correction (after judging) is love as it would be to our family members.
If that is what you mean that is very interesting, something I've never heard before. Please clarify if I am confused. Thanks.
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Oakley Porter
All i keep hearing is we need more love. Stop trying to play god and accept and give the love as he says. Also you are not my judger only god himself can judge us. So guess i get really confused on everyones messed up beliefs on what god eants and says yet nobody has met the man lol. I believe i do , we are all born sinnets so who cares who you sleep with. Mind your buisness just do you and let the world do itself. God never taught hate and evil to us we did that. Read more of the good word. Maybe you can teach us. Lol not being mean but if we loved thy neighbor or all gods people thered b no hate.
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Rev. Ron Freeman
david you are right on jESUS never speck of it only love and forgive each other.I'AM GAY AND SAY MY OFFICE DAILY,,i ;m of the Episcopal church with THE Salvation army back grand for over 35 years,no faith is allways right,what is most inportant is that i am right with MY GOD!
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Jim Boresh
Roman's 1st chapter - there are none so blind as those who will not see.
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Brother John
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" Commonly credited to Mahatma Gandhi
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Ezra Melchor
Identifying someone as sinful if they are sinful is part of being a good Catholic. Don't be rude about it, but admonishing the sinner is the first of the Spiritual Works of Mercy
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DonBiase
Chris: I agree with you 100% and I wish more Muslims shared your view It's up to G*D to punish sin, not us. On the other side of the coin, many with "alternative life styles" INSIST that we not just tolerate their lifestyles but CELEBRATE THEM. That's just as bad, IF NOT WORSE.
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Ken Dixon
I've been transgender for three quarters of a century, and I doubt that my "lifestyle" is much different from yours. What kind of celebration did you have in mind? I've never asked for a party, but now you have me thinking.
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Brother John
This is for you and everyone who celebrates the diversity of humanity, Ken!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GwjfUFyY6M
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Ken Dixon
Thank you! It's just too bad that at my advanced age I can no longer "get down" for fear of not being able to "get back up".
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Ellen M. Santistevan
thumbs up, Ken! before my son had his top surgery, we had a "bye-bye boobies! thanks for the mammaries" party ;-) what kind of celebration would YOU like?
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Ken Dixon
Oh, no. You get the celebration for being such a special mom.
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Mike
Amen brother Jesus said love your neighbor as I has love you ? people are missing the big picture in life Jesus Christ preached LOVE ❤
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Eric
I am against Muslims because of the way they think it's ok to kill and stuff but I could handle being around a Muslim knowing they may have a bomb than around someone of same sex thinking perverted thoughts there is only one one Bible all need to read it if don't want to go to hell because it condemns that life style choice and no it ain't something you are born with it is perverted in the mind having Satan in you
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Dark Gray
Chris wrote: The moral question is “what does God say”?
Heh. Do you know what God says? I'll tell you what God says. God says, "You are my precious, precious child. I love you with my whole heart, and in my eyes, you can do no wrong." That's what God says -- to each of us!
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Brother John
How about what did God do or command to be done, (contrary to "you can do no wrong")? Why anyone would accept, let alone worship, the biblical God remains one of the great mysteries of life to many.
God entraps humans by placing the tree of knowledge in the garden and telling Adam and Eve not to eat of it. This is rather similar to placing a toy in front of a child and telling them they are not allowed to play with it. God created us with instinct, rebellion, and curiosity, then punishes us for doing what is part of our nature. (Genesis 2:16-17)
God intentionally killed every man, woman, and child on the planet except for eight people in the great flood. (Genesis 7:23)
God punishes children for the sins of their fathers, unto the third and fourth generations. Punishing a child for the sins of their ancestors is not very just, loving or forgiving. (Exodus 20:5 & 34:7)
God endorses slavery. He even set up laws as to how slavery was to be carried out, and goes as far as authorizing beating them. (Exodus 21:2-6)
God orders the death of witches, sorceresses and anyone who practices magic. Sadly, this verse, and other, was a justification for the Inquisition. (Exodus 22:18)
There are many people who question believing the unbelievable. They may be thought of as skeptics, rational/free thinkers or "non-believers". As the comments here are often littered with biblical quotations, here are some rational and intelligent opinions as a counter balance.
"As to the book called the Bible, it is blasphemy to call it the word of God. It is a book of lies and contradictions, and a history of bad times and bad men. There are but a few good characters in the whole book." -- Thomas Paine
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." -- Isaac Asimov
"Perhaps the whole root of our trouble, the human trouble, is that we will sacrifice all the beauty of our lives, will imprison ourselves in totems, taboos, crosses, blood sacrifices, steeples, mosques, races, armies, flags, nation, in order to deny the fact of death, which is the only fact we have." -- James Baldwin "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting. But it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." -- Douglas Adams
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -- Stephen Henry Roberts
"Why should I allow that same God to tell me how to raise my kids, who had to drown His own?" -- Robert G. Ingersoll
"If god doesn't like the way I live, Let him tell me, not you." -- Unknown
"Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions." -- Frater Ravus
"'I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, 'for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'" -- Douglas Adams
"When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Religion." -- Robert M. Pirsig
"It ain't the parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand" -- Mark Twain
"Why would some all powerful being create creatures capable of reason and then demand that they act in a manner contrary to their creation?" -- Josh Charles
"I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world." -- Richard Dawkins
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” -- Epicurus
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." -- Blaise Pascal
"Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence." -- Anonymous
"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects?" -- James Madison
"If this is your God, he's not very impressive. He has so many psychological problems; he's so insecure. He demands worship every seven days. He goes out and creates faulty humans and then blames them for his own mistakes. He's a pretty poor excuse for a Supreme Being." -- Gene Roddenberry
"The Way to see by Faith is to shut the Eye of Reason." -- Benjamin Franklin
"Religion is an illusion and it derives its strength from its readiness to fit in with our instinctual wishful impulses." -- Sigmund Freud
"Only the atheist realizes how morally objectionable it is for survivors of a catastrophe to believe themselves spared by a loving God while this same God drowned infants in their cribs." -- Sam Harris
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the philosophers as false, and by the rulers as useful." -- Seneca the Younger
"Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day; give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish." -- Anonymous
"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." -- Benjamin Franklin
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Dark Gray
Sorry, but I don't see why you're addressing all this to me. Did I say I was a Bible-believing Christian? I don't see that anywhere in my comments . . .
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Dark Gray
Never mind. I see you've got a particular message you want to preach and you're sending it scattershot everywhere, so I shouldn't take it personally. :-)
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Brother John
Although you didn't proclaim yourself a "Bible-believing Christian", you did quote God directly, DR. … "I’ll tell you what God says. God says, “You are my precious, precious child. I love you with my whole heart, and in my eyes, you can do no wrong.” That’s what God says — to each of us!"
Your quote paints God as a benevolent, kind and forgiving god. I gave you just a few of the many examples of God's unforgiving, often maniacal wrath, along with a number of opinions about the concept of God and religion overall (not my "particular message") Most of the authors quoted are considered to be amongst humankind's greatest free thinkers ( one who forms opinions on the basis of reason independently of authority; especially : one who doubts or denies religious dogma)
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Dark Gray
@Brother John,
Hmm. So I painted God as loving and benevolent. You used the Bible to prove instead that God is savage and vicious. Then you used other quotes to prove the Bible is not to be trusted.
You do realize that makes no sense, right? Your second argument demolishes your first, and neither applies to me anyway. I've read the Bible cover-to-cover several times, but I don't consider it to be the inerrant Word of God. I generally don't even quote it except in self-defense.
You've clearly got a bone to pick with "Bible believers", and I think you're confusing "them" with me because I said "God loves you."
Look, if you're happy being an atheist (if that's what you are), that's fine; I'm glad you're happy. Just know that not everyone who believes in God conforms to your apparently narrow definition of "Bible Believer".
Oh, and God still loves you, BTW.
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Brother John
I think I wrote a reply last week, but it's not here and doesn't show as being moderated. Apologies if it re-surfaces.
On Sept. 13 DR said …..
"Hmm. So I painted God as loving and benevolent." That you did with your quote.
" You used the Bible to prove instead that God is savage and vicious." That I did.
"Then you used other quotes to prove the Bible is not to be trusted." Yep.
"You do realize that makes no sense, right?" Sure it does. Although you may not be amongst them, there are hundreds of millions of people who believe that God is kind and forgiving and that the Bible is the inerrant word of God. The preponderance of evidence (and corresponding lack of it) is that neither are true nor accurate. It's also a clear indication that many "believers" have not read the entire Bible (especially the OT), as you have.
"I’ve read the Bible cover-to-cover several times, but I don’t consider it to be the inerrant Word of God." Why would you quote God directly if you don't believe the Bible is inerrant? Is your source biblical?
"……...I think you’re confusing “them” with me because I said “God loves you.” My apparent confusion was more due to this part of your quote (attributed to God)….. "I love you with my whole heart, and in my eyes, you can do no wrong." The link below provides a plethora of examples, directly from the Bible, of the biblical God finding plenty wrong with it's creations. Rather than forgiveness and benevolence, God (and it's minions) responds with unfettered cruelty and violence.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html
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Edward Jennings
There are close to 70 different abominations. Being gay being a couple of them. Eating shrimp, pork, or 3 day old left overs are the same level. Keeping the Sabbath holy, burning incense in religious rituals, women wearing jeans the same. As a Christian I refuse to judge others because I was told to love others as I love myself, not to pick some over others.
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Priest Cosmin of ASASC România
I am a satanic priest Cosmin. For us being gay in first ideea is not a choice and second is in satanism being is normal like being straight. Religios should understand LGBT not fight with.
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coptickitty31@gmail.com
I support Transgender Indavidsuals in Wicca
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The one thing I don't think people understand about transgendered, it's completely different then being gay. My oldest is transgender and when we went to get her psych eval (requirement to get on hormone therapy), the doctor explained that there were studies that show when these children are in utero, that when the body is created it doesn't let the brain know the proper gender of the body. In the most basic sense, the body is male, but the brain thinks he's female and doesn't get the message it's male, and visa versa. This is why the brain feels one way and the body is another. Personally, I think it goes deeper then that and it's more of a soul thing. The soul is both male and female but may associate with one energy moreso then the other. So reguardless of what the body dictates you are, the soul could care less and will follow what it does. Since part of the lessons in our soul evollution is balance of the two energies, and for those who believe in past lives, multiple lives, it could be possible that part of this balance is being the energy that is less used. Anyway's, for the day and life of a transgender, it's like a person who has a dissociation disorder, they look in the mirror and do not recognize the person looking back at them. The body doesn't fit what the person feels inside.It has nothing to do with God making mistakes, but in a sense, we all feel this way to a certain extent, for the transgender, it goes beyond themirror and literally feels like they are in the wrong body. If you ever watched the movie freaky friday, imagine this happening, but never being able to switch back. If you want to know how that feels, if your female who doesn't usually wear men's clothing, wear men's clothing for a week, shirts,pants, shoes and underwear. If your male, walk around in heels and mini skirts. Then go outside and live this way for the entire 7 days. Notice how people look at you, the whispers or even words they say to you face while your minding your own business walking down the street. You'll know what it feels like to be shoved to the ground, hazed and treated less then human. Even dogs get treated better. I could care less what religion you are or what your beliefs are, you will never know what it's like until you walk in their shoes. And you will never know yourself either until you do! So many people justify their self righteousness,yet refuse to accept that self-rightiousness, why? because then they would have to accept the truth about their own "sins" and the side that we all like to hide so well! So, I would suggest you save your judgement until you've had that moment to walk in their shoes and to fully understand, because each time you judge them, we all see the side you are so desperate to hide from us and yourself. You don't have to like it or even accept it, but understanding is what brings true wisdom, about ourselves within and the world and the people we have to share it with.
Well said. Thank you.
Thank you