Are we heading for a contraceptive-free future?
Following the leak of a Supreme Court document showing that the nation’s highest court is leaning towards overturning Roe v. Wade, many fear that overturning the right to an abortion is just the beginning.
Will Americans soon have to visit shady back-alley condom dealers in order to practice safe sex? Will doctors be jailed for inserting IUDs in patients? Will pharmacists get the death penalty for selling morning-after pills?
Rubber Meets the Road
Some say there is real cause for concern.
In an interview with CNN’s Jake Tapper, Mississippi Governor Tate Reeves refused to say whether his state would ban common forms of birth control like IUDs or Plan B.
“That is not we are focused on at this time,” he remarked. The careful language used by Gov. Reeves didn’t go unnoticed. As one commenter noted, “‘At this time’ is doing a ton of heavy lifting here.”
Others aren’t beating around the bush quite as much. Idaho House State Affairs Committee Chairman Brent Crane said that he has concerns about emergency contraceptives like abortion pills and Plan B, and wants to hold public hearings on their ‘safety’.
One candidate running for Arizona’s Senate seat even says he wants to overturn Griswold v. Connecticut, a 1965 Supreme Court case that outlawed bans on contraceptive use.
“The concern here is that abortion isn’t the end, like this is more of the canary in the coal mine,” explained Florida OBGYN Dr. Robyn Schickler. “It opens the door to any other aspect of our life that is protected by privacy and that includes birth control.”
While some politicians are taking a ‘wait and see’ approach or merely dipping their toes into the world of contraceptive bans, there's one group eager to see a policy change: evangelicals.
Is a Contraception Ban Conceivable?
What does the Bible say about contraception?
The scripture most frequently cited when discussing contraceptive methods can be found in Genesis 38. It tells to story of how Judah’s son Onan withdrew during sex, and “spilled his seed on the ground.”
Shortly thereafter, God smote him.
Many have taken that rather forceful reaction as obvious proof that God is against any kind of contraception, even coitus interruptus.
Indeed – up until the 1930s, most Christian denominations held that any and all contraceptive use was sinful. And while many denominations have softened in the decades since, conservative wings of the Catholic Church still maintain that any and all contraceptive use is a great sin.
However, others say that Genesis 38 has been completely misinterpreted, and that Onan was smote because he refused to follow a command from God, not specifically because he pulled out.
How Pagans Are Involved
Some scholars have taken their disagreements ever further, suggesting that the Christian opposition to contraceptives might actually be based on pagan philosophy, rather than their own theology.
Early Christian philosophers regarded Stoicism as a “pagan philosophy,” and yet borrowed their view that sex was for procreation only. Some experts argue it was Saint Augustine of Hippo, influenced by the Stoics, that provided the foundational Christian views on sex. He said that contraception prevented the singular purpose of sex itself: producing children, and even chastised the Manicheans for tracking their menstrual cycles to avoid pregnancy.
Whatever the source is for the Christian opposition to contraceptives, that is probably little solace to women now who rely on them. With abortion bans impending in many states, they worry contraceptives could be next on the chopping block.
What is your reaction?
141 comments
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Richard Lee Cornell
Know how easy it is to spread the AIDS virus. Just one drop from a infected person upon the skin of a non-gay person and that person gets infected.
Every Republican in the Texas State house could be infected. It could be just a spray bottle away squirt and to infection may not kill, but again it will cripple. It is a little more than that, but still it is a good weapon. It does not have to be AIDS with so many other virus like COVID-19 variants could be given to these Congressmen.
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John Condron
Wow! So much misinformation one short post!
First, getting AIDS has nothing whatsoever to do with sexual orientation. According to the CDC, 23% of new HIV infections in 2019 resulted from heterosexual contact.
Second, nobody has ever gotten HIV from "Just one drop from a infected person upon the skin of a non-gay person." That is absurd.
That HIV could be spread by a spray bottle is equally absurd.
Finally, what does anything you said have to do with the topic at hand? It sounds like you are just ranting and raving!
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Lionheart
John, you will find that Richard is uneducated in many areas, hence his lack of understanding of how religious indoctrination works that he is party to. I’m hoping he can see the importance of understanding logic and reason, as he moves forward.
🦁❤️
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Richard Lee Cornell
Tax the Church for all the cost of women not having the rights. They will go on welfare and the Republicans will pay a heavy price. I knew a girl in college that as a good Catholic started to have babies when she was 12 years old. Every year she pop out a new one. 24 before she was sterilize Just think of the cost to society not to mention the half wits produced. What right for one religion to tell another on what they can do with their lives. This is America and if the Pope does not like women to have abortions too bad for him.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
And not having an abortion may sometimes lead to maternal grandmothers shouting "You're just like your father"!!! Don't y'all hate it when they say that? I know I always did! However, Grandma Pistone was born in 1909, so it's been a while since I've had to hea that.
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P. Keith Benefiel
Life is a beautiful choice. IF it is a choice.
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Alexander Clarke
The American Taliban (Right wing Christians) want to take over the country and make it a Christian nation under (their) god with liberty for none.
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
Pro-lifers are hypocrites! There have been over 900 school shootings in the last 10 years!!! What are pro-lifers howling for? Is it gun control or mental health care? NO!!! Gotta control women's uterus's. The Governor of Oklahoma said he'll sign any pro-life bill that crosses his desk. But not gun control. I guess it's all about satisfying the gun lobbyists by force-birthing, future school-shooting victims.
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Jason LaBarre
Something that I learned a long time ago. You do not talk politics or religion, outside of certain circles. Government at least the American government, is trying to scare everyone into there way of thinking. They don't want a separation of church and state, they don't want you to think for yourself. They want to tell you what yo do, how to think, when and what to spend your money on, how to do your banking. Ect. If everyone would stop. The government would fall worse than it has. Stop watching the news for a week. See what happens to there stock and how they report the news. Every time the news reports on what the president says. Turn to another channel. Every time they report on another shooting, change the channel.
They like to report the negative, and never give enough time to the positive. You can change this if you choose to.-
Richard Darwin Richards
Sadly the sheeple will not listen to this great advice!
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Tomas Ronan
TOO MANY KIDS IN THE WORLD KILL THEM BEFORE THEY ARE BORN AND SURE WHY NOT AFTER AS WELL dont want a baby dont have 1, the morning after pill but 6 ot 9 months after why
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josh
Why are we going back in time is my only question? Is this necessary to roll back Roe vs Wade.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
josh, it's because of all those books and movies about time travel that is encouraging people.
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Richard Darwin Richards
Biden is taking us backwards for sure.
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Rev Deborah Dunkle (Raven Wolf Song)
Stop with the politics this isn't the place.
Moderator???
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Richard Darwin Richards
abortion is not political??????
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Rev Ned
Churches are businesses. The product they sell is the hope of eternal life. The best way to ensure a constant stream of customers is to have parents send their kids to Sunday School where they are indoctrinated and become paying members of the congregation.
Two extremes of religious business models are the Catholic Church (CC) and the Shakers.
In Catholicism all parishes are wholly owned subsidiary branches of the Vatican, where the Pope is CEO. The CC allows no form of contraception, it's bad for business.
The Shakers believe in total separation of the sexes. The only way to get new paying members is to go out and proselytize them. A while back there was a PBS documentary on the last Shaker group in New England. There were 7 members.
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James Edward Baker
Something overlooked in this argument. Most "Pro-Life" supporters are in reality pro-birth. As soon as the child is born they want nothing to do with it. Just look at how difficult and expensive child care is and how little help is offered.
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Yang
Deciding to have a child is a very sacred and thoughtful process. Albeit abortion is not good for the health of the woman, denying the right to abortion is problematic if the woman is in a coercive and abusive marital relationship. This can be subtle but devastating for the rights and autonomy of the women. Worse things can happen. I don’t want to make the example, but if the woman were pregnant by being raped, does she get a right to abortion?! Whoever take such legislative is either machoism or ignorant.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Yang, what happened to Yin? Isn't it better to achieve and maintain balance?
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John Condron
Yang, do you have any evidence that "abortion is not good for the health of the woman?"
As with any surgery, SOME abortions may not be good for the health of SOME women. On the other hand, a woman with an ectopic pregnancy will DIE without an abortion.
Similarly, some fetuses die in utero, and must be removed in order to save the life of the woman.
Personally, I think DEATH is not good for the health of the woman. How 'bout you?
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Russell Robertson
It amazes me the rush to judgement on something that hasn't been released yet. Judge Alito's the Supreme Court's final decree could change 100 times before it is finally released. Overturning Roe V. Wade does not end any abortion laws at this point. It merely puts the decision back to the individual states as to how to legislate it. I think the big fear is that the state legislatures will be the ones to decide the issue, but that they will actually put it to a vote of the people. Currently, according to a CBS News poll (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/abortion-opinion-poll-analysis/ - yes, I actually site things), 2 in 3 Americans want abortion to be an option, but almost 70% don't want it after the first trimester. If we fell in line with the rest of the world, there would be a cap on abortion between 12-20 weeks (https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries-where-abortion-is-illegal) as is the case in about 130 countries and I am pretty sure most are not run by "white males.".
If you want to go by the science, at 15 weeks there is a heartbeat, movement in the womb, the baby feels pain and even has dreams. Each week is another phase in human development. Should I have the right to abort my adolescent if he/she doesn't turn out like I want? See, that sounds barbaric, but in truth the only difference is they are on one side or the other of a quarter inch of skin and a few inches up the birth canal. If a woman and her family cannot decide after almost four months whether or not to have the baby, I think that is a bit ridiculous. There are not enough "unknown" pregnancies after that point to sway my opinion on that. Too many abortions are for convenience, and if it is within the first trimester, most of America is OK with that. It is after that point it drops of precipitously.
I have always held the decision for an abortion is between a woman and her doctor and no one else. If the Supremes overturn Roe V. Wade that decision is probably correct as there is no provision in the Constitution that governs abortion. The 10th Amendment is clear that all powers not specified in the Constitution are retained by the states. I know many are concerned because so many states have gone conservative. To quote President Obama "Elections have consequences." and "If you want to change things, go out and win a few elections." Like it or not, the conservatives did. Completely off topic, but I know many will say this is because of voter suppression in places like Florida and Georgia. Then must be apoplectic about Colorado; it is more restrictive than either of those and is a blue state.
No matter which way I fall on the issue it will upset someone. Say I am pro abortion and I am a murderer. Say I am pro life and I hate women. Again, I feel the decision should be between a woman and her doctor. I can see once for convenience in the first trimester, but after that you know what is causing the need for the abortion - live smarter and make better choices.
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John Condron
Actually, Russell, overturning Roe V. Wade WILL immediately make abortion illegal. Thirteen US states (Arkansas, Idaho, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah and Wyoming) have already passed "trigger laws," which will immediately restrict abortion once Roe v. Wade is overturned.
Happily enough, 16 other states — California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Nevada, New Jersey, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont and Washington — and the District of Columbia have passed laws codifying the right to abortion.
BTW: You ask "Should I have the right to abort my adolescent if he/she doesn't turn out like I want." According to the Bible, absolutely! (If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... all the men of the city shall stone him with stones, that he die ....(Dt. 21:18, 21))
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Russell Robertson
Restriction and making it illegal are two different issues. I am sorry you are unable to understand that. All of those states with trigger laws I believe cap it between 15-20 weeks, the point at which the baby starts to become viable (that point is becoming closer to impregnation as medical technology improves)., which puts them on par with the vast majority of the civilized world. If you can't decide in four months if you want the child, why should the child suffer. 92% of abortions are elective; they are from women who got pregnant normally and decided they didn't want the child. Again, America seems clear that as long as you make that decision in the first trimester that is OK. After that it drops of precipitously. At some point, the viability of the child outside the womb must override the right to choose. Otherwise, we are killing for killing's sake. I would not consider an abortion a "happy" occasion or advocate for post birth abortion as you seem to. I would think the act of an abortion is a traumatic experience. That said, both sides, the ones with trigger laws and the ones with unfettered abortion will have to live with their decisions.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
There are A lot of Catholic priests to tell women what they want to do to the women’s body, and then do it.
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Keith
Politicians depend on big pharmaceutical companies for endorsements and donations for their campaigns. This is going to be interesting to see who wins the battle on contraceptive products and drugs. Pharmaceutical companies make billions of dollars on the distribution of these contraceptive products to pharmacies, hospitals, and doctors' offices, in which in turn they prescribe to their patients. If the politicians support any bills that will ban contraception products and drugs, this would be detrimental to pharmaceutical companies. They would lose billions in profits for their companies and shareholders. I see this as a double-edged sword. If politicians support a ban then they are more likely to lose donations and endorsements from Pharmaceutical companies, because billions of dollars of profits will be lost. Politicians will most likely lose elections because they hurt their supporter's profits, therefore they will stop their donations and endorsements. I'm not a big supporter of big pharma and most politicians, because they are only looking out for themselves. In the past, they have lined each other's pockets, by doing favors for each other. I get rich you get political power. It will be so interesting to see which will cave in first. Will politicians stop laws that ban contraceptive health and continue to receive support from big pharma or will big pharma stop supporting politicians with donations and endorsements, if politicians vote to ban contraceptive products and drugs? Only one can win. I'd like to see them both lose. I'd like to see contraceptive laws remain in effect and big pharma lose money. Overcharging consumers for their medications and sometimes life-threatening meds is just plain and simple wrong and shows how greedy companies and politicians are. Shame on both of them!
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
It might be better if they would quit encouraging people by selling Viagra and Extenze.
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JaZe
Inconceivable, unbelievable, crazy, idiotic, dark ages! Have they taken a page out of the Taliban's manual? Those are the guys who wont hear of democracy and sweep the floor with women. We already wear masks so why not throw a scarf over the head too? No one will tell the difference between this and their country 😖
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Patricia Ann Wileman
Birth control pills have been around seems like forever. Abortions weren’t legal when I was young and I got married at 16 I was not pregnant. Birth control pills were around 57 years ago hear me 57 years ago condoms were around even longer and other conceptive. If you did what was right you didn’t need to use abortion as birth control. And whoever thinks abortion is a birth control needs to go abort themselves. Because if that’s your beliefs you shouldn’t be here. If I could choose when to have my child because I want to finish high school stayed on the pill after I graduated because I did get married at 16 but I wanted to finish school with my class and not being pregnant. Had my son one month before being 21 by my choice when I went off the pill. People say stay out of the bedroom with what we do. That’s true but use them common sense if you’re going to have sex or keep your legs closed. You man or just as responsible as the women to make think I see the baby. To women or two man cannot produce a baby so get off of that crap too it takes one woman and one man.
And supposedly this is supposed to be a Christian site. I really don’t think so as a Chaplin. I don’t care if you were a Christian or you go to church or not when it comes to conceiving and making a baby because of sex. God did want to between one man and one woman who were married. But in these days times I understand everything seems to go don’t say anything.. that’s your choice use common sense and that is not an abortion there’s other things out there so you do not get pregnant and that is not the Chaplain and me that’s the old me telling you don’t act so stupid just because your hormones are raging. Can you guys that are saying oh I don’t have to worry about it it’s her well you better start worrying about it also because you are the cause of it just as much as she is.
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Tom
This isn't a Christian website
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Richard Darwin Richards
Stating the obvious. I would venture to say it is Antichrist.
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John Condron
You say that "If you did what was right you didn’t need to use abortion as birth control," but that ignores that neither of the forms of birth control about which you spoke were (or are today) perfect.
Condoms (rarely) fail. Birth control pills fail. Even IUDs fail.
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Rev Deborah Dunkle (Raven Wolf Song)
In case you missed the bulletin this is not a Christian Website. It's non denominational.
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Rev Deborah Dunkle (Raven Wolf Song)
In case you missed the bulletin this is not a Christian Website. It's non denominational.
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Ronaldo
No state has made any public announcement about eliminating contraceptives. Idaho did mention studying the safety of Plan B, which is not an abortion drug, but did not declare any plan to ban it. Anything that chemically aborts a fertilized egg kills the unborn as readily as a surgical abortion so should be treated the same. Condoms, birth control pills, IUDs, and abstinence, if properly used, don't result in pregnancy, so there is no good reason to suddenly ban them. Of course, the conspiracy theorists have already been pushing the lie that the Supreme Court is going to go after some marriages next, even though there is no evidence that this is going to happen.
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Amber Fry
Actually yes, they have. What's more there are bills circulating around congress now to make it illegal nation wide as well as the understanding the conservatives are also pushing to make abortion illegal nationwide as well. Check. They are no longer being coy or discrete about these things. They have been openly admitting it interviews all over the place.
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Richard Darwin Richards
The woke extremists are killing this country!
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Rev Deborah Dunkle (Raven Wolf Song)
Must you make everything political? Why are you a minister?
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Regina Dumas
Very well stated. I agree with you 100%. In life there has to be options and, whether one agrees or not, abortion has to be an option. There are no absolutes in this situation. Thank you Dave J..
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Michael Barton
A little sad this website is publishing something like this. Ending Roe vs Wade doesn't have anything to do with condoms or birth control. Nor will it end abortions. All it does it take away the Federal Gov. control, which it doesn't belong with to begin with. It's a State issue. I would assume a religious website would be against abortion...
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Amber Fry
It does. It's opening the door to roll back many rights not directly and specifically mentioned in the constitution, such as same sex marriages, interracial marriage, women voting, people of color voting... a great many things. And just so you are aware there is already a bill floating around congress to remove not just birth control but a fair number of things. The constitution was meant to change and grow as the country does. Unless and until people understand that we are going to end up back 200 years ago where only the rich white men did have rights and who cares about anyone else. We are well on our way to that already. Look around. Check the bills in circulation on the government sites. Look around and see what some states are already doing. It's all there. It's already happening.
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John Condron
Wrong, Michael. The Roe v. Wade decision was based on the right to privacy, as are many of the decisions related to contraception, interracial marriage, gay marriage, etc. Many legal scholars agree that it should have been based on the 14th amendment's "equal protection of law;" but it wasn't.
So, if Roe v. Wade is overturned, other right to privacy decisions will fall like a row of dominos. That is what actual legal scholars predict.
Also, why would you "assume a religious website would be against abortion?" Is that because you (1) believe there is a god (prove it), and (2) you know the will of god? That's an awful lot of arrogance!
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Richard Darwin Richards
We agree with you Michael! A lot of ULC Ministers don't seem to respect life!
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Paul Donaldson
The Supreme Court released this early draft to explore the political waters, just like any other lobbyist, and, in the process, created more than it bargained for. All you need do is look at the competence, or lack thereof, of the sitting justices.
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Amber Fry
If that were the case they wouldn't be so bent out of shape about who leaked it and try to take the focus off the draft itself. Competency isn't the issue. The fact that they are conservatives to the point of controlling and over zealous with there motions in that direction that is the issue.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Paul, what television station was that you used to broadcast on?
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John Condron
Evidence, Paul?
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Anderson Shiva Ramdass
get nosey people out of the bedroom.
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Lady Celynia
Politics should not be part of science in the same way religion should not be part of government.
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Amber Fry
Exactly. People should be free to make the decisions that directly affect their own lives without government blocking those decisions.
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Richard Darwin Richards
Exactly ! Our bodies our choice , no government forced vaccines! Especially by old white guy Fauci!
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Richard, I haven't gotten a vaccine since those ones we had to get as children. I haven't even had a flu shot, but never get sick. Ofcourse, I never get close to other people anymore. If I ever plan to I'll make sure I've got plenty of grapefruits and tonic water.
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Richard Darwin Richards
Great plan! I avoid crowds at all times.
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James Grainger
Again, religion and politics, don't mix. government and people should stay out of yours and my life. it is between the individual and their god.
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Alexander Pope
I believe a woman and a couple should have a right to use birth control if they chose..it ...it's not up to the government or any religion to make decisions for the people...
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John Condron
It shouldn't be... but it will if Roe v. Wade is overturned.
Not immediately, but since both are based on the right to privacy, once one falls, the other will follow.
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Aqilah Jackson
Let no one tell any woman what to do with her body, especially a person without a uterus…period!
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Richard Darwin Richards
Well said! Include the right to refuse poisonous vaccines being injected into one's body!
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Minister Wilson
Mr Richards
Do you have proof of the vaccine being "poisonous"? Did your god tell you that?
Have vaccinations helped or hurt society?
Some individual may be alergic but millions of others have reduced their chances of dying and serious illness,,,
Abortions are not contagious, yet viruses are...
What are the public health concerns from a woman getting an abortion? Does preganancy spread?
So, I guess the elections were stolen too, except all the republican wins, they were legit from the same ballot, right?
Grow up, you sound like some right-wing partisan troll....
Minster Wilson
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Richard Darwin Richards
I am for a person'd right to their body being penetrated with ANYTHING against their consent, after all, that is being American and free!
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Nathaniel Robert Hunt
Remember Gorge Washington made his troops get inoculated against small pox, those that refused were kicked from the army
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Richard Darwin Richards
The war would have ended a lot sooner f he wouldn't have kicked those good men out! We are pro choice when it concerns vaccines!
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Amber Fry
True, because the military personal would have been too sick to fight.
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Nicholas J Page
What next Ban sex Fine or imprison couples.Who enjoy sex.And condoms prevent STDs and unnecessary children.Come on wake up America Rebel against these idiots who want to ban everything.
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Rev Frankie PG
-People condemned a President that put a ban on countries that oppress women and LGBT groups. -People are now getting enraged because the federal government is trying to get out of women's bodies. -A majority of the top two groups believed in the vaccine mandates. Summary, get your heads out of your rumps people. The government should never be invading a citizen's body and nor should taxes be used for invading citizen's bodies. The government, if followed by the constitution, its amendments and the laws that have been on the books, before this 'woke' crowd came about, then quite possibly we could Build Back Better while Making America Great Again.
Do I think contraceptives will be next, no. Do I think abortion is going to go away, no. Do I think the use of abortions should be used the way that Planned Parenthood's Founder (Margaret Sanger) intended to, ABSOLUTELY NOT. The choice of an abortion, under non- sex crimes purposes should not only be between the doctor and the woman, it should also only be between the woman and her pocketbook.
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Richard Darwin Richards
We have learned nothing. Look at the war we have provoked in Ukraine.
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Rev Ned
IMHO, the war in Ukraine was started by 45’s boss Putin.
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Richard Darwin Richards
The Biden's and liberals are profiting handsomely from this while innocent people die. And good point, 45 brought peace!
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Rev Deborah Dunkle (Raven Wolf Song)
that could be debated but 46 did not start the war in Ukraine. He and our government is suppling arms and aid so that the people of Ukraine can defend being invaded by a country that is headed by a monster. Putin is condoning the killing of civilians, the destruction of entire cities. His army is raping and pillaging. Have we learned nothing? Of course we have to stop them because if we don't they aren't stopping in Ukraine. 45 liked Putin. He admired him and wanted to be like him.
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Rev Frankie PG
Supplying them with arms to stay safe, all the while more restrictive gun laws are being decried here... irony?
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Rev Deborah Dunkle (Raven Wolf Song)
that could be debated but 46 did not start the war in Ukraine. He and our government is suppling arms and aid so that the people of Ukraine can defend being invaded by a country that is headed by a monster. Putin is condoning the killing of civilians, the destruction of entire cities. His army is raping and pillaging. Have we learned nothing? Of course we have to stop them because if we don't they aren't stopping in Ukraine. 45 liked Putin. He admired him and wanted to be like him.
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Richard Darwin Richards
We have learned nothing! You are absolutely correct! Biden has gotten us involved in many wars and killings yet here we are 50 years later with this warmonger as president. War is and never was the road to peace!
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Rev Frankie PG
I thought it was Hillary's friend
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John Condron
No, Frank. The federal government is not "trying to get out of women's bodies." The Supreme Court, the only unelected part of the federal government, is rolling back protections in order to ALLOW states to "get into women's (and others') bodies."
You are quite right that "The government should never be invading a citizen's body and nor should taxes be used for invading citizen's bodies;" assuming you mean all levels of government. The 14th amendment to the US (federal) constitution guarantees EVERY citizen, even the ones with uteruses, "equal protection of the laws." That applies to all levels of government. So, a decision allowing states to limit the rights of half the population is simply wrong.
Nobody cares if you think contraception will be next to go. Legal scholars on both sides of the political divide predict just that. The states will pass laws against contraction and other things (at least one state is talking about making miscegenation illegal again (look it up - it should be of special interest to Clarence Thomas and his lovely wife). Such a law will be challenged, and when it reaches the high court, SCOTUS will rely on precedent to support that law.
Finally, do you really believe abortions should be available to only the rich? That is the only reasonable way to interpret your last statement!
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Rev Frankie PG
In your first paragraph you proved my point, the federal government, SCOTUS is the most effective part of the federal Judicial Branch, is getting out of women's bodies in an effort for the legislative branch to finally do their jobs, which is to make law. Just like POTUS' Executive Orders, the next one can come in and overturn them, which this President so brazenly did, contributing greatly to this country's current status of wreckage. For 50 years, state legislatures had the ability to actually make it law and should have but have failed their duties.
The US Constitution holds the federal government responsible for the general welfare, whereas an abortion is a specific and clarified by the 10th Amendment where the onus falls upon the states.
There is always controversial talk about many things and some groups gripes wll be heard loud enough that they reach the politician's platforms. Miscegenation, same sex marriage, the age of consent, illegals rights, gun ownership are a few of the hot topic items that continously circulate. There are ridiculous laws that actually make it into laws, such as no masturbating to the point of ejaculation and no riding of horses on the right side of a railroad track. So continuous talk will happen.
As for only rich people being the only ones that may have abortions is ludicrous. I did say that an abortion should be between a woman and her pocket book because she and the father should actually be held financially responsible for it, as well as their insurance. Tax monies shouldn't be used for it. Why should a lady that can't conceive and has seen specialists to try to still get pregnant be responsible for a loose lady that feels entitled to it?
Finally, your comments show that you believe in absolutes and not particulars, "allowing states to limit the rights of half the population" and "Nobody cares what you think" this forum is for our individual thoughts and expressions and should be taken like a grain of salt. During my 30 years in public service, I've learned and continue learning that many matters are not black and white but rather an array. I may not agree with what you have written but at least I respect it enough to give you a response.
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John Condron
Frank - when you put words in quotes, that indicates that you are quoting the exact words used. I did not say that "Nobody cares what you think;" I wrote "Nobody cares if you think contraception will be next to go," then stated that "Legal scholars on both sides of the political divide predict just that." In other words, people more qualified on this particular subject disagree with your less informed opinion on that particular topic.
Also, rights (such as those described in the 14th amendment) should not be subject to legislative whim. Past SCOTUS decisions have respected the Constitution; the present SCOTUS clearly does not.
Finally, the rich will always be able to skirt whatever laws are past. It has been forever such.
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Rev Frankie PG
What and if, they are two distinct words and in this instance of quoting you remains synonymous. It still does not undermine that "no one" is the main point of statement. You are still making statements of absolutee. How many doctors that stated they were against Fauci in his regards to the HIV and COVID scare did the general public hear about? The media is paid to deliver the narrative their stakeholders want and not necessarily the truth without bias. My opinion is based upon my translation of the US Constitution that I had to become extremely familiar with being a federal police officer. What I still don't see being acknowledged by you, and many others is that SCOTUS Opinions are just like POTUS Executive Orders. For instance, during the last President illegal crossings were finally down to a minimum, then this current POTUS decides that the Executive Order should be discontinued. Or how the gas rate was so low because the oil companies were free to pump so much that the country was actually exporting oil, until the new POTUS decided that it was well, did not fit his narrative.
Finally, the rich does seem to "get away" with all sorts of stuff. The rich of Canada come down here to get their medical procedures done because they know they don't have to wait for the endless medical lines that their government created. Will Smith goes up on stage and slaps Chris Tucker with no immediate reprisal. Black Lives Matter blatantly extorted millions to mostly only help themselves and more instances happen everyday. In abortions, there are never any victors, the mother, the father and the unborn baby especially after being viable are all victims. Problem with your statement is that the rich don't use it nearly as much as the poor and middle-class. If you ever need a reminder, go to the majority of Planned Parenthood Clinics that are still carrying out Sanger's dreams of ridding the world of black babies.
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John Condron
First, what does Tony Fauci have to do with the question at hand? Has he said something about abortion or contraceptives to which you object? Methinks you might be a bit obsessed with the good doctor!
Second, I was a police officer a long time ago, so know that many cops are completely clueless when it comes to the law, including the US Constitution.
Third, SCOTUS opinions have the force of law, while Executive Orders do not. They are not, by any means, the same, as indicated by your very next statement about another President rescinding an Executive Order. That is clearly not the case with a SCOTUS decision!
Fourth, your statements about border crossings fly in the face of the actual data.
Fifth, the rich of Canada do come to the US to get procedures not deemed medically necessary done more quickly; just like US citizens (myself included) go to Mexico to obtain medical care they can't afford here in the US.
Finally, I have been to Planned Parenthood clinics in multiple states over the years. I have seen many WHITE women who have received abortions at such clinics. I have also seen lots of women who have received other medical treatments at Planned Parenthood clinics.
Blaming Planned Parenthood for the dated thinking of their founder is a lot like blaming every police officer for the history of policing in the US, which started with slave patrols. LOOK IT UP, FRANK!
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Well. After all if you do it you do it to procreate. Otherwise it's lust if you use contraceptives. We need more white babies.
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Tom
Ahh the racist Great Replacement theory that has motivated more than one mass shooting in America combined with Christo-Fascist sexual repression. Nice.
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Donald Richard Starns
Yes, we must Promote Pale Progeny. Hey, that would make a great bumper sticker! Dumb, but great.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Keith, are you saying the world would look better with more albinos. I hope you aren't trying to make them with white women.
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John Condron
First, why do we need more white babies, Keith?
Second, are you saying that once women reaches a certain age, they should not be permitted to have sex? After all, it isn't for procreation at that point.
Are you saying there should be an upper age limit for marriage? Or that couples should be tested for fertility before marriage? That men who have vasectomies should immediately stop having sex?
Perhaps we should open breeding farms for white babies?
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Alexander Arends
Should pro-abortionists be able to worship together with pro-lifers? Should those who encourage birth control be able to pray together with those who support the opposite? Should we as pastors condemn those with a different view, just like the church did a hundred years ago in reverse? Is one opinion more evil than another? Only God will tell.
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Minister Wilson
Mr. Arends,
According to the christian bible god is not a very good decesion maker for determining good and evil...
Should women, men, and children, all be drowned to death in a global flood?
Should entire cities including women and children be destroyed due to supposed "sexual" immorality?
Should moses be ordered to kill all the men, women and children but keep the virgins for yourselves?
Should unruly children be stoned to death?
Should there be rules from most high about owning of people as property to pass down to your children?
One hundred years ago or yesterday makes no difference whatsoever, since the bible is unchagning right?
Start thinking for yourself, and stop making excuses for offense acts under the guise of righteousness...
Any person that thinks sex is only for procreation, or that birth control should be outlawed, has an immoral and evil view of this world...
I could not care less what someone thinks "god" might say, "it" has said enough already...
Mininster Wilson
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John Condron
I'm puzzled, Alexander. Have you EVER met ANYONE who said they were "pro-abortion?" I have not. I am "pro-choice," as, apparently, was the Christian god, who supposedly gave men "free will." But I am opposed to abortion. In countries with decent sex education and access to contraceptives (clearly not the US), abortion is legal but rare, as it should be.
Also, you ask "Should those who encourage birth control be able to pray together with those who support the opposite." I have to wonder, what do you think is "the opposite?" People who are in favor of as many births as possible (i.e., uncontrolled birth)? The data suggests that refusing to provide adequate sex education and limiting access to contraceptives are both fine ways to increase the birth rate. Is that what you mean?
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Rev Deborah Dunkle (Raven Wolf Song)
Point is the same government that is trying to ban abortion is the same that is restricting sex education. And guns? Do you believe that other countries allow the proliferation of guns like we do? Most don't. Ohh there are some that have a lot of guns Think middle east, some of south America... Family values are lacking in America. What do children do these days. Come home, spend time with their families get good moral guidance and good education about human sexuality? No they come home land in from of the TV or computer or play video games. .
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Minister Wilson
Hello Members,
My thoughts and reactions have remained relatively consistent throughout this whole disgusting display of political pandering to right-wing christian nationalism...
I like many others, do not care what muslims, jews, hindu's, mormon's, etc., think about how society should operate and unfortunately this includes christians beliefs as well...
For much too long religion has been given deference or a special place within a person's identity and belief structure. However, when those beliefs began to spill over into the public through the force of law then it must follow that a more rigious standard should be applied to justify those beliefs from a factual basis...
In other words,
prove there is a god to believe in...
prove that this god is pleased with these restrictive behaviors...
prove how it benefits the public or society at large...
prove there is a soul
prove there is an afterlife
prove etc.
What religon appears to do is provide opinions couched in "alternative facts"....
Evolution is made up by jews gods perfect breathing system prevents Covid-19 god wants subservient women to stay home and raise kids homosexuals must be murdered for "choosing" that life style
So, I am beginning to think that an argument can be made that religion teaches a crystalized version of "replacement theory" where only christian's should hold all the power and societal influnce...This concept is not American but more inline with radicalized forms of terrorism just like the middle east there is little difference...
How is society supposed to move into the future taking 3 steps forward and 4 steps back. We are rehashing things that have been settled yet still not accepted by a radicalized volcalized minority that are being pandered to for political power...
We cannot have a functional modern society that keeps referring back to 2,000 year old belief system...with antiquated magical notions of [I believe it, therfore, it must be is true....]
Enough is enough, is my reaction... I am shocked but not suprised
We must a distinction that strongly held beliefs or not secular justification...so we can began by demanding proof which is neccessary for substantiating these types of political actions...
A woman does not lose her right of person hood or bodily autonomy because she has the potential to give new life...An embryo, fetus, zygote or potential human should not have "special rights" which supersede a woman's ability to choose...
Consequently, we cannot continue to remain silent and ignore these radicalized religious ideaologies or we all risk the prospect of eventually becoming victims to those ideaologies...
Minister Wilson
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Robert Gagnon
Not everybody is intimidated by one small story from the bible. I could care less about one unlucky fornicator. Some moron in Kentucky or Tenn. already tried passing a bill that would prosecute use of contraception between married couples. Don't forget that condoms also prevent the spread of std's. Seeing as how the ones pushing for this are normally the most prolific cheaters, let them figure out how to tell their wives why God smote their genitalia.
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Dave J
It's not about saving foetuses. It's about controlling women. The religious right wants to preserve the patriarchy and the status of elite white men. I'm one of them, but I don't agree with them. The ban on laws preventing abortion is not based on foetuses at all, it's based on the right to privacy, something the religious right wants to prevent. What other things might be on the chopping block next? Contraception, as noted in the article. Same sex marriages. Legality of being gay. Transgenderism. Freedom of religion. Freedom from religion. Privacy of your email. Privacy of thought.
All things the religious right would like to control or eliminate.
If there is a hell, I hope Newt Gingrich, Mitch McConnell, and Donald Trump can share a nice room.
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David Buck
I am with you on this one Dave J.
I am about as conservative as it gets, but I agree with Roe v Wade. The one thing this world does NOT need: more people.
The damage that could be done to the emotional health of a woman who doesn't want to carry a child to term is significant. The other damage of course is what happens to an unwanted child. Don't we have enough child abuse, without adding more unwanted children into the mix? To say nothing of conception as a result of rape or incest.
It will get exponentially worse if some politicians try to ban contraception (and only the heir to the throne of the kingdom of idiots would even contemplate it).
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Gerard Babin Usmc-Dav
Reality check, Roe v Wade only made women more eager to engage in sex outside of marriage and made it easier to destroy the proof of their activity. Just because your "into" someone is not a reason for any woman to willingly green light sex which has always been seen by true Christians as a seal on marriage vows. It also chains men to these women via child support.
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John Condron
Here's a new idea, Gerard. How about some data to support your claim that "Roe v Wade only made women more eager to engage in sex outside of marriage?"
Teens were MORE sexually active in the 1950s (i.e., well before Roe v. Wade) than after. In fact, for the last twenty years, abstinence rates among American adolescents have RISEN.
The fact is that your statement is exactly, 100% wrong. That is what happens when you jst make stuff up, Gerard!
BTW, Gerard: Since Roe v. Wade made abortion legal, it is ridiculous for you to claim that "it also chains men to these women via child support." If a woman chooses an abortion, there is no child to support, Gerard. Check your logic!
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Minister Ronda
I would like to see statistical evidence of teens being more sexually active in the 50s and on the last 20years that abstinence has risen. Can you kindly share where you got that data from? And it seems you have some data knowledge so I would also be curious to know what the ages are of the women having abortions now, if you happen to have that as well. Thank you kindly
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Edwin Merle Waltz
Yes an Clinton’s oboma , peloton also
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Party balloons will always be legal. The longer ones work better. And with them try canola cooking oil, if they outlaw KY (and I don't mean Kentucky).
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Jason LaBarre
Man's law's are nothing, compared to God's law's.
Focus on God's will and love and law's. They are perfect. Man is always going to dispute this situation do to having free will. The lord's prayer says it all. If you listen to the words you are praying.-
Dave J
God's laws are perfect? Really? Let's take the 10 commandments. The first four are just narcisism. So, even assuming a god exists, they have serious mental issues. The fifth commandment is just so you can have a later decree to stone children who disobey. Not all parents are worthy of honor, respect, or love. You shall not murder is a pretty good law. One that the "god" of the old testament violated many, many times. Not commiting adultery is a fine idea, unless both parties to a union are good with it. I know several polyamorous and open marriage couples who have wonderful marriages. You shall not steal seems like a fine idea. But then how to the mega churches justify fleecing their congretation for a new jet? Not lying. Apparently god never understood the need for social niceties, which always include some level of prevarication. Not coveting is just not going to happen. When I covet my neighbor's nice green lawn, it makes me work harder on my lawn. Coveting just makes you change your habits to create what you want.
Nope, not perfect. Not even close.
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Lionheart
I know you mean well Jason, but please open your eyes to logic and reason and get well from your deep religious indoctrination.
🦁❤️
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Lionheart, do you think Jason might be talking about the prayer that starts with "Dark some night and shining moon hearken to the witches rune?
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Lionheart
You could well be right Carl 🤗
🦁❤️
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Robert James Ruhnke
Sounds like sharia law, no thanks.
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Richard Darwin Richards
Well said Jason!!!
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Minister Wilson
Mr Richards,
Cool, then is it okay if you and your family are owned as slaves according to the rules laid out in god's perfect law?
If man's laws are nothing then why have all these right wing religious zealot organizations manipulate the Supreme court to change Roe vs Wade?
Both you and Jason seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouths...
There is little diffeence between jihadist and most ring-wing christians....both operate to force people to belief and worship the way that you and others would approve of...or be forced by man's law to do so...
So, then I guess regardless of what the court says, women should still use birth control and get abortions no matter what "state" they are in, if man's laws men nothing... right?
Hypocrisy is an understantment...
Minister Wilson
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Richard Darwin Richards
Thank you Minister Wilson for the input. I can't speak for God's intent as I am not high ranking enough, I am merely a human trying to love and do better. Warm regards, Reverend Richards
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Susan Colmenares
Take government out of bedrooms and religious beliefs! The United States guarantees freedom of religion as well separation of church and state, so how does the Supreme Court justify this decision?
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Government is already out of the closet. Now it’s time to get the church out of the bedroom.
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Rev Frankie PG
Take the government out.. that's what the Supreme Court is doing... or did I miss a memo?
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Rev Deborah Dunkle (Raven Wolf Song)
You sure did because what other reasoning than a religious one can be used to determine if abortion is wrong? Is forcing someone to bear a child that isn't wanted better? Is more children in orphanages better? More people forced into poverty and on welfare better? Women getting backroom abortions with coat hangers like some did prior to legalization is better????
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Rev Frankie PG
What other reason, than 50 years of politicians ignoring the issue of making it an actual law, do the people have to complain about? Just like executive orders, where the next POTUS can remove them, the same is true for SCOTUS rulings. To make a law, first a bill must be drawn up and then it goes through the legislative process. In addition, since this is a law that would be regarding the people, the law would be on a state level. I believe in tax monies being used for abortions under extenuating circumstances, "oops I got pregnant" is not extenuating. At that point personal monies and personal insurances should be used, which is a major piece of this.
The parents are affected in any choice they make regarding the babies, whether it be fully viable or not. I believe in providing support to the new parents (materialistically), for a matter of a few months, to assist in integrating the baby, not causing the foster system to have another added. If the parents feel that they don't want the baby, then THEY have the choice of turning the baby in to the foster system from the point of delivery.
The only reason why you don't hear the aborted babies protesting is because they are never given the chance.
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Rev Frankie PG
What other reason, than 50 years of politicians ignoring the issue of making it an actual law, do the people have to complain about? Just like executive orders, where the next POTUS can remove them, the same is true for SCOTUS rulings. To make a law, first a bill must be drawn up and then it goes through the legislative process. In addition, since this is a law that would be regarding the people, the law would be on a state level. I believe in tax monies being used for abortions under extenuating circumstances, "oops I got pregnant" is not extenuating. At that point personal monies and personal insurances should be used, which is a major piece of this.
The parents are affected in any choice they make regarding the babies, whether it be fully viable or not. I believe in providing support to the new parents (materialistically), for a matter of a few months, to assist in integrating the baby, not causing the foster system to have another added. If the parents feel that they don't want the baby, then THEY have the choice of turning the baby in to the foster system from the point of delivery.
The only reason why you don't hear the aborted babies protesting is because they are never given the chance.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
They are Catholic.
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JaZe
Keep religion out of politics, countries that are ruled based on religion are undemocratic and overbearing. This country is multi-faith, Christianity is only one of the faiths!
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Not when you get to Washington D.C.
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Richard Darwin Richards
Amen! DC is run by Satan.
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Chris
Someone should ask Clarence Thomas what his thoughts are on overturning Loving v Virginia.
Basically these poor excuses for justice want to overturn anything that opposes their religion, something that is in direct conflict with the First Amendment.
Sure, leaving it to the states is a grand idea as long as the entire state gets to vote on it. But when the state legislature enacts things that go against what the majority of voters want, or refuse to enact things the majority of voters want, then we have problems. Why not leave it up to the individual to make up her own decision on what she wants to do? Oh, right, we need a "domestic supply of infants" because they won't do anything about gun control. We need the cannon fodder.
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Richard Darwin Richards
Don't be scared, abortion isn't going away and neither is birth control. In fact, they will become more popular and widely used.
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Amber Fry
Absolutely. History shows women do what they feel they have to in order to manage their lives. Most people do. If their needs are illegal then they are unsafe because they cannot be monitored and held to safety standards. We have been here before. We lived in a country where it was illegal and women died needlessly. It's horrible that we are back here again.
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Richard Darwin Richards
meanwhile the liberals are sending our sons to die in foreign countries for no reason other than oil.
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Tom
Ummm... the Bush Administration sent us to the Middle East for oil, not liberals.
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Richard Darwin Richards
Bush , Obama and now Biden. They are indeed a horrible group of warmongers!
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Lionheart
In this respect I totally agree with you.
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Richard Darwin Richards
Some times what we agree on are the biggest things!
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Rev Deborah Dunkle (Raven Wolf Song)
Isn't it interesting that Biden has NOT sent troops or people to fight?? He has however supported the Ukrainian nation with supplies and weapons so that they can defend themselves.
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Richard Darwin Richards
So we should send weapons and artillery to people in the US to defend themselves? Biden has been a peace loving man for the past 50 years when it came to war. Did he vote for war in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Yemen, ohhhh.......
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Donald Richard Starns
What is your reasoning behind this statement? How will the impending state laws banning reproductive rights somehow increase them? Really?
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Amber Fry
If contraceptives are banned then there will be a lot more pregnancies which mean a lot more women will be seeking ways to get abortions. It's a simple exercise in logic. If you don't believe that then take a little walk down abortion history. We've been here before. I'm sad it seems nothing was learned from it then.
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Richard Darwin Richards
Great point but what exactly have we learned from history and done better?
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Richard Darwin Richards
Great point but what exactly have we learned from history and done better?
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Amber, don't forget that women have three sex holes, and babies only come out of one of them. So, all they have to do is quit having sex with that one hole, and they'll never get pregnant.
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John Condron
Wow, Carl! Not only is that statement horribly misogynistic, relieving men of any responsibility for the decision to have sex, but it is inaccurate.
Given the pathetically low level of sex education in the country, it is apparently necessary to explain that two of the "holes" of which you speak are very close to one another (only 2 to 2.5cm, or less than an inch for the metrically impaired). Semen carries millions of sperm that are hardwired to swim as vigorously as possible to find an egg. Whenever sperm are near the vagina, there is some possibility that it will spread to the vaginal canal without vaginal penetration. If all other conditions are right, this could result in pregnancy.
Two more things: not all women (or men) enjoy anal or oral sex. Also, not all men can be trusted to respect their partners' choices. That is, a woman might agree to use one of those other two "holes," but her partner might "stick it in another hole!" Kinda like the increasingly common practice of "stealthing," in which a man surreptitiously removes the condom during sex. That one is common enough that California recently passed a law against it!
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Richard Darwin Richards
woke is winning and so is un agenda 2030 which guides US policy.
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Susan Marie LaLonde
The Handmaid's Tale is becoming real.......We need to rid this Country of Every Politician That wants Roe vs Wade halted.
Any Church that doesn't support Roe vs Wade then needs to support and take care of ALL the children in their area. And ALL Churches should loose their Tax Exemptions.
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Ronaldo
Churches did not make this decision, nor do they have the legal authority to do so, so why punish the charities and people they help? Women who use abortion as nothing more than birth control should seek out less physically damaging forms of protection. All the Supreme Court is doing is moving the legal ramifications of abortion from a federal mandate to a state matter, where the People living in that state can make a determination with their votes. The overturn of Roe v Wade will not lead to laws forcing women to have sex with men and bear their children, so Ms. Atwood's dystopian future will not likely come into existence.
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Amber Fry
They don't. They use birth control as birth control. However it does sometimes fail. It's rare, but it does happen. Then you have health conditions, rape, incest... being able to deal with things the way you need to without the church or the government getting in the middle of it should not only be available but supported rather than shut down. This is how people die needlessly. Nobody is forcing anyone to get abortions here. Nobody should be forcing people to believe the same things either. And yes, the overturning of Roe would force women to bare children they don't want. We were already in that dystopian spot and it didn't go well. It was why Roe came into being to begin with. Take time to find out why women would need such a thing as the vast majority are in a place in life and health that a pregnancy could either kill them or force them into a level of poverty they very likely may never get out of if forced to have a child.
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Richard Darwin Richards
so why are women forced to get a poisonous vaccine against their will?
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Rev Deborah Dunkle (Raven Wolf Song)
??? what in the world are you dreaming about? No one is forced to get a vaccine nor has any research at all shown that any vaccine now available is poison. Truth be know the most deadly vaccine that was required was smallpox because a lot of people did get ill from it. Did people protest? they did not because they wanted to stop the disease
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Richard Darwin Richards
people are tired of lab created viruses that the government then forces them to get vaccinated against.
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Rev Mark D
As if either of those will ever happen.
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Amber Fry
It's already happening. Look, seriously.
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Did not grant us free will? And as for the pagan argument, sex is a natural act and should not be weighed down by restrictions and contraception is necessary to protect us from disease and infections. I do not believe nor have I found any proof that contraception was first practised by pagans or heathens.