Is there any shame in watching porn if you’re a churchgoer? Decades of mainstream Christian teachings would lead one to assume the answer is yes, that carnal thoughts are best kept to the bedrooms of married couples – and kept away from computer screens.
But times might be changing.
According to a recent study by the Christian research group Barna, more than half of Christians openly admit to watching pornography. Just as interesting: rather than express shame about this habit, most are entirely comfortable with their porn consumption.
This revelation is causing ripples within faith circles, sparking debates about the ethical and moral implications of porn usage – particularly among young people.
What the Study Shows
The study, conducted among a diverse group of self-identified Christians, reveals that 54% of participants admitted to consuming pornographic content. Whether out of curiosity, habit, or a coping mechanism, it’s clear that Christians – like the broader population – are not immune from the pull of pornography in today’s hyper-connected world.
Non-Christians were still found to view porn at higher rates than practicing Christians, but the gap between the two has narrowed to 14 percentage points (54% of Christians vs 68% of non-Christians).
Overall, 75% of Christian men and 40% of Christian women reported some level of porn usage. For Gen-Z, those numbers were even higher.
Another revelation: many porn viewers don’t see a problem with it. 62% of individuals surveyed said they were comfortable with their level of porn consumption. Another 16% reported some reservations, but overall agreed that moderate levels of use were acceptable.
Faith Community Reacts
The study’s findings are ringing alarm bells in some church communities. For one, the researchers point out that decades of warning about the sin of lust has seemingly been a failed strategy.
“Despite the Church’s stance against lust generally, it seems little progress has been made to deter many of those who fill the pews from pornography consumption specifically,” researchers noted. “The gap between professed beliefs and actual behavior raises questions about the efficacy of current approaches within faith communities.”
While faith leaders are largely aware of the sway that porn has on its parishioners, some were shocked to learn about the scope of usage.
Nick Stumbo, executive director of Pure Desire Ministries, proclaimed it a “sobering call to realize our collective struggle has not improved, in spite of some initial steps to bring health to the Church.”
“What may be more troubling is that well over half of Christians who use porn say they are comfortable with their porn use. The reality for those who struggle in the Church is that they, too, often feel like they are alone. When asked, ‘Who is helping you with your struggle with pornography,’ a staggering 82 percent of Christians say ‘no one.’ Isolation is the enemy’s playground,” Stumbo continued.
Is Porn Sinful?
The campaign against pornography has deep religious roots. People of faith who advocate against porn cite a few different points:
- Moral Impurity: In many religious traditions, viewing pornography is regarded as sinful, based on teachings that emphasize the need for purity in both mind and body.
- Marital Sanctity: Pornography is often seen as undermining the sacredness of marriage, as it can distort one’s understanding of sexual relationships and loyalty.
- Human Dignity: There is a common belief that pornography dehumanizes individuals, treating them as objects for pleasure rather than honoring their inherent dignity as creations made in the image of God.
- Addiction and Consequences: Religious perspectives also stress the addictive nature of pornography and its potential to lead to damaging behaviors and consequences.
Perhaps recognizing the digital age’s ability to make porn more widely available, certain faith groups have been getting creative in how to combat it. Some believers are even resorting to porn-monitoring software – though with mixed results.
Deeper Issues At Play?
While many in the faith community expressed dismay at the study’s findings, the debate may also have a deeper level. One commenter on the Christian Post website raised an interesting point, arguing that focusing on one type of sin, say lust, is arbitrary and distracts from many other commonplace activities that could arguably be an equal violation of Christian teachings:
“Sadly it's been normalized. There was a time in movies and TV shows that nobody was even seen in a bed together.
Porn is a problem for sure and is sin. But there is also the bigger picture.
How many here are happy to watch movies with violence and murder. Swearing in them and 99% containing taking the Lord's name in vain, cursing with His name. Watch sci-fi movies that the basis of them is that God didn't create the universe when He said He did and created all kinds of other beings billions of years ago making a mockery of Genesis.
How about movies where you see married actors kissing and doing other things with another actors, you're watching someone commit adultery. Movies with wizards and witches. I bet there are people here who say "porn is disgusting and I doubt those who watch it, if they say they are Christian, actually are" who every day use the Lord's name as an exclamation when something happens.
Read what God says about those who do that in the Ten Commandments. We are to obey the laws of the land, how many here speed in their car. We are to respect those who rule over us, how many mock their leaders.
What I'm getting at is that it's easy to focus on the sins of others and condemn them as questionable Christians, but let's not forget to check out our own closets.”
Back to the study: as the results show, many people disagree with the notion that porn is inherently bad. Non-religious people have always had more favorably views of adult content, according to polls. But now, a new generation of churchgoers – long assumed to join their parents in opposing pornography – appear to be flipping the script.
What is your reaction?
149 comments
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John Ash McCormick
BTW, I never found anything Rev. Dr. Father JJ wrote that I would object to. He is one reason I seldom post, he has already said it all.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
Thank you John and to honest, I am humbled. Thanks and may the Flying Spaghetti Monster bless you with his tentacle-y embrace.
Ramen
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John Ash McCormick
Yes, well acquainted with the monster and also with TST although I wanted to do a story about them for my Australian news services and they ignore my requests for photos I can use. I know Salem but haven't been there for 50 years so have no photos I can use in an article. Writing for an international audience I have to respect hundreds of religions. I think the total count is now 10,000 with over two thousand christian variants most of which say all the others will either go to hell or at least not qualify for heaven..
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
Ah...TST. I am in fact a card-carrying member. They do a lot of good fighting the constant intrusion of kkkristinsanity into schools and government.
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John Ash McCormick
JJ I can't join the TST because I am a journalist and wouldn't be able to write about their good works if I were a member. I am a foreign correspondent. BTW, the Harris campaign declines to provide any information even schedules or press releases. I am in central PA.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
I can understand the need to be unbiased in writing and reporting.
I don't know any reason why the harris campaign wouldn't provide any info, perhaps they don't recognize your affiliation(s)?
central PA, heartland of trumpism, init?
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Lori-Ann Neeb
I am in pa. and cant believe trump is even running. he belongs in a federal prison with all the other terrorists after inciting abriot on this nations capital. that must be some damn good kool aid trump feeds anyonebwho would even think ofbgiving a terrorist the keys tonthebfrontbdoor again.
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Russel A. Kester
Could it be her campaign is a vacuous Hollywood production and she's been advised to lay low after not doing so well in the public eye?
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
LOL how did I miss your wonderful insight? Of course you find herr trumpler far less vacuous?
And FYI, she's doing at least as good (if not better) in the public eye than your herr trumpler. But of course we get it, she's a woman, woman are bad, boys are discriminated against...sigh, must be tough to hate half the population
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James Mounts
But worse to hate more than half--see Nov 5 results.
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John Ash McCormick
I think they are just run badly.; Yes, a critical area and many, many trump signs. As for my rredentials, I belong to the two largest press clubs, especially the Overseas Press Club of America recognized in war zones.
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Reverend Paula Copp
Yeah, you’re right… she’s awful… except she’s not facing JAIL TIME for 34 FELONIES!
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Rev. BH
Comment removed by user.
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
Some 216,000 children in France alone, have been sexually abused by members of the clergy since 1950. I think watching porn is a lower priority.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
well, sex does seem to be a highly controlled drug in churches and religion so unless you're banging out babies (which is basically the only "suitable" reason for having it) what other outlets are there?
what if momma bear ain't in the mood, hardly ever, what's a po boy to do? this whole idea of sex being bad is just stupid. sex is a gift from the gods and it should be used until it don't work no more.
but of course not everyone wants a dozen babies, so sex with contraception is an...nope, no it's not. Religions are under the misconception that contraception is bad because it prevent pregnancy (but so does change-of-life and general old age but they still let the olds get married (and the male olds use viagra)). so it appear the only option left for healthy adults is masturbation and...nope, no, that's not allowed either, with or without porn. seems the horny just cant's catch a break nowadays, can they LO...goat herders...
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John Ash McCormick
Every one should read Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land.. I was lucky to find the second publication which included all the original text published by his wife after the first publisher forgot to renew their copyright. It was about 20 thousand words longer.
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Carl Lewis
Thanks. How does one find that version?
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Rev. BH
JJ, your goat herders obsession is becoming concerning... especially in a porn blog.
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Reverend Paula Copp
Hahahahahahaha! Too funny!
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Dr. Father JJ
Viagra makes you go blind! And the best contraception is s*xual abstinence!!
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Reverend Paula Copp
It seems like what people do in the privacy of their own homes should be their business and nobody else’s. Unless their behaviors are injurious to the public , let people have private lives.
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Matthew W Meister
Paula, I agree wholeheartedly. Once the behavior, or in this case the consumption becomes injurious to the public, it is damaging. Many of our co-contributors to this discussion seem to have an all or nothing view. I do know that the production of pornography can frequently be VERY injurious to the public, with people being recruited into the business when they are most vulnerable. Why? Because there is so much money in pornography that those who produce it frequently cross the line. It is a dangerous line we walk creating demand for the product. That said, people should be able to do what they want until it becomes injurious to others.
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Thomas P. Davis
From listening to the so-called experts back in the Ted Bundy and Jeffry Dahmer days, it could eventually increase and become injurious to the public.
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Mike Stand
Hey, Buddy!
I know this reply belongs in a different conversation between you and me, but there were so many replies and replies-to-replies that all the indentations left very little room to write.
So here's my comment:
A few weeks ago, I replied to one of your messages and sorta "dared" your god to strike me dead during major surgery I was going to have on November 13. You see, I find no evidence for your god, and was offering him the opportunity to give you the ultimate proof, if you will.
In my earlier comment, I said, in essence, "If I resurface here the first part of December, you'll know he didn't 'off' this old reprobate."
Well, I'm B-A-C-K.
Cheers.
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Thomas P. Davis
Hi Mike, I am glad that your god did not nock you off and my God guided the hands of the hospital staff to your recovery. My prayer is that you keep an open heart, and my God will speak to that heart. I am looking for a miracle in my life as well, I have stage 4 renal cell carcinoma with two masses in my liver.
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Mike Stand
Thomas, I'm truly sorry about the health challenge you're facing. It's my hope that science and the skills of your caregivers will give you the best possible outcome.
I'll be holding you in my thoughts.
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Thomas P. Davis
Mike, Thanks, at this stage in my life I am looking forward to the grave. After that the 2ND coming. no more of the hate in this world or even on this blog. The Lord has greatly blessed me and my family. I have always wondered why I was born into the family I was and not into a third world country where food, water and sanitation were not present, and bombs were dropping on me every day. I had one set of parents my whole life, we were not rich, but we had all the necessities. If He has more for me to do, He will need to do a miracle. As far as science and caregivers, that scares me. That is why i do not care for the medical system. A case in point, all my CT scans until the last one said I have an enlarged prostate and an appendix. This one said my prostate is normal and my appendix has been surgically removed.
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Pastor George Day
Thomas P. Davis,
Sending prayers your way!
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Russel A. Kester
The ancient Hebrews had positive beliefs about the human body and sex. In fact, patriarchs had concubines and slave women in addition to a wife or wives. Christianity erred when it decided to teach that the body was inherently sinful, except in the confines of heterosexual marriage. While an argument can be made that concupiscence is harmful to us, defining what constitutes concupiscence is much more difficult. We are here to explore and enjoy our earthly bodies as well as to learn life lessons for the development of our souls. Porn is not the problem, wrong teachings about our bodies and sex is the problem.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
concubines, by and large were involuntarily so and were, in essence, slaves. it's ODD that you would connect your first two sentences, that "...hebrews had positive beliefs about the human body and sex." AND, that "...patriarchs had concubines and slave women..." do you even understand irony? here you are (in another discussion) railing about boys being discriminated against and here you are, here, conflating positive beliefs about the body and sex AND involuntary/slave sexual servitude as though they were two sides of the same coin.
anytime sex is forced, involuntary, where the choice is taken away from a person it is NOT positive. at all. EVER.
read your last sentence again, and maybe one more time. because there seems to be a disconnect between your first two sentences and your last two.
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Russel A. Kester
OMG JJ, there is no disconnect. Your comment is a word salad throwing disparate ideas and concepts together. Taking the time actually to read Holy Scripture and understand the times in which it was written would help clarify much of the confusion expressed in your comment. Judging the past by our luxury privileges today is to fail to understand history, it's challenges for those who lived it, and the complexity of the times.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
LOL first of all I wouldn't use 'holy scripture' for anything other than a tire chock.
secondly, it was written by men full of all their own biases, prejudices and repressions. it's not a historical source by any means other than a reflection of what I just wrote.
also, calling it word salad is the new catch phrase of 2024 so you're neither original nor sharp.
there is no confusion and you are once again dodging and 'weaving' to avoid answering. you come across as one who thinks they're the smartest person on the room. even in here that is far from the case.
you comment about concubines and slaves was just so casual and, well congratulatory indicates that, unsurprisingly you prefer boys over women and find male domination over women (at the least) to be natural and rightful thing).
you mentioned concubines, and slaves and did so in an offhand manner that I called you out on it and what is your response? once again to deny and deflect. seriously there is no percentage here discussing with you because you can not accept that someone does not accept and approve of your view(s). and when that happens (which is literally every time you make a comment) you do the same thing. I think maybe you should consider taking a break from here rather than act as if it's your job to address everyone you think is wrong here. just saying...the ULC is really all about LARPing (which, come to think of it is what religion is all about. silly goat herders)
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Rev. BH
Amen, JJ. All his posts are all the same - dodging questions, anti-woman, pseudo-intellectual unsubstantiated ramblings. Amusing, though.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
Rev BH, indeed! What is interesting though are the slow brain leaks of how he views the world that manifest in not just what or how he answers but what he chooses to not answer. His 'nots' are way more interesting and than his actual answers
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Russel A. Kester
A mean girl comment? Really? Ouch. How devastating. However will I recover. Perhaps even the slightest attempt at an analysis of why many Christians are seemingly very accepting of porn today would be more interesting than another boring ad hominem attack? It would also actually engage with the article the staff worked hard to produce for our benefit.
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Rev. BH
A mean girl comment -- you can't stop yourself. You had to include "girl". Maybe next time just "a mean comment" without gender.
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Russel A. Kester
If the slipper fits Cinderella, then she must wear it.
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Matthew W Meister
Russell, I hope you understand that even though most of us don't call you out like JJ and BH, we see the same things in your comments. It seems to offend you when others act toward you the way you act toward others. Perhaps more self-reflection would help, and certainly listening openly to others thoughts might add some clarity for you that we are all searching for by being part of these discussions.
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Russel A. Kester
Matthew, on this thread the topic was about Christians watching porn. I discussed that the ancient Hebrews had a more positive idea about bodies and sex than later Christianity did. The following comments repeated the same narrative about the mistreatment of women which they do discuss at every opportunity. I think what your post is hoping to do is keep the narratives here on those deemed worthy or important to drive home by the far-left and to discourage or demonize those not so blessed. It is my observation that these same people do not "listen openly" to other ways of thinking and might indeed benefit from "more self-reflection" as you suggested.
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Reverend Paula Copp
Mr. Kester, must you attack liberals as well as the female gender? Must you make your misogyny so obvious? You seem to wonder why a lot of people on here comment negatively on your posts…if you’re as tremendously intelligent as you indicate, you should already know.
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Russel A. Kester
Study history to learn from it instead of judging those who lived it.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Russel, What you describe here is why I get so tightly wrapped about anyone claiming a "biblical definition" of anything cultural or historical. The transcripts being quoted were from a civilization that existed over 2000 years ago, and much has happened since then and translated multiple times and then interpreted. In many cases the original genre is lost, so the context of most that is written is suspect, as there is no understanding if the writing is literal, metaphor, or simply lost in translation. Marraige and sexual mores then were quite different. There is no "Biblical definition of marraige, and if there was it is certainly not one man and one woman, as you point out so well. Women and children were property who were bought and sold and treated like pets or farm animals. Men had multiple wives and concubines/mistresses. Slavery was accepted, and the only discussion of it in the Bible was the ethics in how to treat the slaves. Transportation was accomplished by boat or beast of burden bearing wagons. In today's high tech world, we have no concept of how it was at that time. I can go on. but back to the considerations of the article on pornography.
I have no problem with sex or pornography. I have on several occasions enjoyed both, but where I draw the line with both is when they become exploitive to any of the participants. This includes force, exploitation, and blackmail. I really think that the world in general and this country in particular is too wrapped up in anything associated with sex, and has an unhealty obsession with genitals, body parts, and body image. Just like anything that is good and enjoyable, excess can become problematic. (Drugs, alcohol, gambling, and anything else that releases endorphins into the blood stream come to mind as examples). If one wants to discuss which/what is sinful and what is not, it is when it is used to hurt, exploit, or coerce any person to do something they wouldn't do otherwise.
Unfortunately, what I perceive as exploitive and what others do is really what is in question. I don't expect others to agree with my views on any of these. Some people have a greater tolerance for infidelity than I do, and some not as much, and that's ok. I don't try to force my views on them and ask for the same in return. For some, they view pornography as infidelity but personally I don't any more than watching a war film means I'm a war veteran.
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Russel A. Kester
Patricia, that was a great post! I didn't find anything to be inaccurate or offensive. I like your take on understanding the historical context of the lives of ancient peoples and the limits to our understanding. This has been a fun and informative discussion.
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Reverend Paula Copp
Mr. Kester, do you even recognize how patronizing you sound? You didn’t find anything inaccurate or offensive. How very kind of you! How sad it is that we can't all be as wonderful as you…
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Carl Lewis
When one examines the sociology behind American porn use (see especially Kelsey Burke, The Pornography Wars, and the work of Christian Ethicist Kate Ott), it is remarkable how little good science supports painting porn as an unmitigated evil. Porn is the only place young queer folks can see their bodies and desires depicted without censorship... or without people having sex being punished at the end (as in most mainstream depictions of queer life for decades). Women who watch porn (notice, I don't have to say "use" or "abuse," you can actually neutrally "watch"" porn) have healthier outcomes than underage straight men who should not have access to porn anyway. Also, non-religious men are much less likely to label themselves "porn addicts." Religious men with far less frequent viewing of porn than guys who have no problem at all with temperate use are encouraged to think of themselves as "addicted" to porn even though the APA absolutely refuses (and has for years) to allow that distinction. Should a non-religious, 80 year old widower living alone never, ever again have access to images that give him pleasure. Porn use among older, divorced men is one of the very few pleasurable, sexual outlets possible, and many find it deeply satisfying without, somehow, becoming sociopaths.
Porn needs to be talked about, but let's do it scientifically and accurately. Just because it's sex doesn't mean we have to be dishonest about the facts just because it is some religious people's conviction that lies and misinformation are necessary for promoting the agenda of their particular--but not universally-accepted--theological stance.
(Btw... my personal opinion is that PornHub (pictured above) is evil. There are studios which have been producing ethical, instructional, and justice-oriented erotica for decades but they don't seem to get as much press as the truly evil, exploitative ones. Whose choice is that to not even bother to mention that there are more ethical alternatives?)
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Alexander Clarke
One thing that pornography will show, same as a nudist colony, is that all men and certainly women, are not created equal. Pornography generally will depict men and women who are more generically endowed than the average human. It is not what you have but what you do with what you have. No matter Father Time or Mother time if you prefer, will be the great equalizer.
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Carl Lewis
Good thoughts. Also, one can see (if you avoid studio porn as i do) a vast diversity of body types having way more fun than some of the people whose pictures might slow one down while scrolling. I find a generous, grateful, celebratory eroticism in the play of older men. Big belly... hair some places but not others... grey hair... and having the time of their lives. If the performers are not having joy, I don't want to watch anymore. More and more, when I run into a "gorgeous" person in real life, I notice how much more frequently I feel absolutely no erotic interest. Aesthetics are nice, but a joyful, lived, grateful eroticism is so much better! Thanks be to God!!!
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Russel A. Kester
Carl, you had a lot of interesting information in your comment. Very academic in nature. The last paragraph seems to despair that ethical, instructional, and justice-oriented erotica doesn't get much play in the real world. Of course there's a simple reason. They're about as entertaining as an ethical, instructional, and justice-oriented comedian. Both are oxymorons. People want to listen to edgy comedians who push topics that are usually verboten in society. And they want to watch porn that gives them fantasies that they would never ask of their significant other.
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Carl Lewis
Thanks for your insight!
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Pastor George Day
PornHub is the domain of Satan and his demons!
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John Ash McCormick
There is nothing to repent for watching a fantasy. As long as it isn't forced in any way making porn is fine. So is watching it. In 40 years I never touched another woman even with a kiss except for my partner. I had offers especially when I was on the road at a trade show for my books and even at high school reunions. Never even tempted. But I am in the half who admit watching, especially over 70 it can help get the old engine running. But I can always look across the room to a real person, my only other person.
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Michelle R. Nelson
My husband of 45 years passed away unexpectedly 10 months ago. We had a very loving and faithful marriage but he was never as interested in sex as I was. In fact, for the last 15 years of our marriage, we did not have sex at all. I asked him to seek medical help for it but he wouldn't. Admittedly, I turned to porn to watch and then usually masturbate to. I felt much more comfortable doing that than having sex with someone else and going against my marriage vows. I am not looking for a new partner and even though I am conflicted when I watch porn, and I miss my husband terribly, I will probably watch it again when I really feel the urge.
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Patti Anne Lisenbee
In my marriage, he was overly sexual but it was never for me. I had to "submit" as the bybull says and let him do what he wanted. Around 5 years after we divorced, I watched a little porn to get an idea about what sex was about, then I got on some sites for dating and soon found myself immersed in a world of pleasure. That's what it's all about, pleasure. After I got out of that era of my life, I never watched porn again. I believe that if it hurts no one, anything in moderation is fine. Well, almost. drugs are never good for anyone, even what doctors prescribe are often the wrong things. If you're a strict Xian, you believe gawd created people. Well, he put those nerves in the groin area for a reason, and it wasn't just to propagate. Read Song of Solomon! Most people avoid it, it is so sexual. What people do in the bedroom should be private, just don't cause harm to anyone else.
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Russel A. Kester
Patti, thank you for sharing something so personal. I don't know much about womens' consuming of porn. I do remember being in about the 7th grade and finding a copy of a Playgirl (?) my mother had. And I knew I liked what I saw! Unfortunately, she died shortly thereafter, and I was never able to discuss it with her. It seems that at that time there was a dearth of such material back then in the seventies but that has improved. Not sure, you'll have to tell me. Again, thank you for sharing your experiences with us.
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Pastor George Day
Russel A. Kester
Porn in any form leads to slavery to sin!
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Russel A. Kester
Sorry Michelle my comment was to you not Patti, though I do appreciate both of your comments.
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Pastor George Day
John Ash McCormick,
In all this time, you and your partner never even considered holy matrimony, other than living in sin and spicing it up with more sin?
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Donald G Magel
Surprise! MORE THAN HALF OF THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT are supporting a sexual assaulter, a user of prostitutes and the leader of an armed attack against our voting system who they want to be their President. They see no sin in any of his behaviors or speeches.
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Mike Stand
I think the problem is that those of the Christian Right who are supporting the Orange Genius believe he was called and anointed by God to save the rest of us from ourselves. "He's imperfect?" they say. "Well, look at King David. He was far from perfect."
It's a false equivalency, because of the differing motives. If you believe Scripture, David repented and was sorry for his sins. If you believe tRump, he (tRump) hasn't done anything wrong.
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Robert Louis Rada
Pick your poison.
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James Riggle-Johnson
If I were God, I’d be asking myself, Why are these church leaders worried about who is watching porn when children, that they insisted were born, are going to bed hungry? Then I would say, I knew I should have been more specific on those commandments I wrote out. Just my two cents.
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Russel A. Kester
It's a good reminder that we should strive to address both physical and spiritual needs.
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Mike Stand
"If I were God ..." you say.
Fair enough. But if you WERE god, you would be all-wise, all-loving, and all-powerful. ... Wouldn't you? But look at the mess the world is in--the suffering, the pain, the unfairness of life, the starving children--all of it.
If you were all-wise and all-loving, you'd put an end to it. But since you haven't done that, perhaps you're not all-powerful.
If you were all-wise and all-powerful, you'd put an end to it--unless you aren't really all-loving.
And if you were all-loving and all-powerful, you'd put an end to it--unless you just didn't have the smarts to fix things.
I'm open to a thoughtful, reasonable, evidence-based response to the all-wise, all-loving, and all-powerful paradox. But in my nearly 80 years on this spinning speck in the universe that we call earth, I've yet to hear one.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Mike, I think God, if there is one, is so far beyond our comprehension that we mortals can never truly understand. That said, based on my mortal experience, I would want the human race to figure it out and wait until their mortal lives end to judge them. Their penance, as a spirit, would be to live as those they oppressed for as many years as they were alive. And those who were made to suffer would never know that type of treatment again.
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Mike Stand
James, thanks for your thoughtful reply. You wrote, "I think God, if there is one, is so far beyond our comprehension that we mortals can never truly understand."
Perhaps. But "God, if there is one," created us humans with the capacity to reason, to think, to imagine, to come to logical conclusions, AND to fellowship with him. (Genesis says, "... the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. But the Lord God called to the man, 'Where are you?'" [Genesis 3:8-9].)
It seems odd to me to think God would create humans and expect to converse with them, while limiting humans' comprehension so that understanding him was not possible.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Agreed, but humans wrote that… not God.
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Mike Stand
Exactly! Humans have written at all, haven't they?
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Thomas P. Davis
Written by the inspiration of the Holy Ghost.
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Mike Stand
"Written by the inspiration of the Holy Ghost." Got it! That's what it says in the book written by humans. If we're not careful, we're going to get into circular reasoning here, as in, "What I said is true, because I says it's true, and I've told you I won't lie."
Of course, those who are absolutely truthful can make that argument, but that doesn't stop those who are NOT absolutely truthful (or who are honestly mistaken) from making the same argument.
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Thomas P. Davis
Have you ever played the parlor game "Telephone? That is where you get ten people together and tell the first one a story. He proceeds to tell the next one until it gets to the last one. Then the first one repeats the story to the group and then the last one repeats what he was told. They are totally different. We you can count on the authenticity of the bible for several reasons. One you had 35 - 40 authors over a period of 150 years living on 5 different continents and all their stories match. You the story of Daniel that secular historians verify is true. You have the woman being wittiness at Jesus resurrection, which would never happen in a male dominated society. You have secular archeologist using the information found in those pages to find sites to dig at. If it is a book of lies, who do you know that would stick to those lies and go to their death. I could list more because there are many.
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Mike Stand
Thomas, you certainly have allegiance to your holy book ... blind allegiance.
The authors do not all agree. For example (and thanks to Bible Odyssey for their succinct account, found at https://www.bibleodyssey.org/articles/the-two-creations-in-genesis/), the Bible opens with two different creation stories. The accounts are similar in that they both describe the creation of animals, plants, and humans. But they are distinct in several ways and even contradict each other on key issues.
For example, though the stories describe some of the same events, they order them differently. In Gen 1, God creates plants, then animals, and then simultaneously creates man and woman. In Gen 2, God creates a human, plants, then animals, and later he divides the human into female and male.
Then there's the sin problem--or lack of one. Romans tells us that all have sinned. I John contradicts that: "We know that whoever is born of God does not sin."
Oh.
And what about those women who were witnesses, you say, to the "resurrection of Christ"?
Matthew says, "The women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples." Mark tells a completely different story: "Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid."
Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel? (a) God did (2 Samuel 24: 1) (b) Satan did (I Chronicles 2 1:1)
How did Simon Peter find out that Jesus was the Christ? (a) By a revelation from heaven (Matthew 16:17) (b) His brother Andrew told him (John 1:41)
Did Jesus ascend to Paradise the same day of the crucifixion? (a) Yes. He said to the thief who defended him, “Today you will be with me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43) (b) No. He said to Mary Magdalene two days later, “I have not yet ascended to the Father” (John 20:17)
Yawn ... I could go on.
You asked, "If it is a book of lies, who do you know that would stick to those lies and go to their death"?
Anyone who is delusional would go to their death. Many "false messiahs" were put to death by the Romans.
And I do not claim the bible is ALL lies. But it contains many untruths. It's a book of half-truths.
And the problem with a half-truth is that you're liable to believe the wrong half.
Your faithful correspondent, Mike Stand
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Thomas P. Davis
The authors do agree, and I certainly would go to an uninspired source to justify my beliefs. The bible sometimes uses what they call repeat and enlarge. One chapter will give info, and a later chapter will add to that. You see that a lot in the book of Daniel. Gen 1 numbers the days. I see no numbering in Gen 2, nor do I see any discrepancy. Gen 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. Plants first. Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Man after. Yes, all have sinned once they have reached the age of accountability. Joh 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin. The women were still listed as witnesses in society that was against them. In the story of the thief on the cross. Ask yourself what he asked Jesus. Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. When does God come into His Kingdom. The bible says the end of this world. That has not come yet. In the original there are no commas, although man does take the liberty to add them later. If you place the comma after the word today, then it continues to say YOU WILL, (that does not mean today, it is referring to tDan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. he future when God sets up His kingdom.) Not talking about any false messiahs, I was talking about the apostles that went to their death perpetrating what the world calls lies.
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James Riggle-Johnson
So they say.
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Mike Stand
Hmm? What are you saying when you say "So they say"?
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Mike Stand
I know this may be a bit off-topic, but ... this article IS about sex, and it relates to the teaser further down the email message--the teaser about GHOSTS. The following GHOST news item about SEX that I heard many years ago is too important not to share, so please bear with me. ...
The preacher of a small country church was astounded to hear the rumor that some of his members actually believed in ghosts. He decided to take the bull by the horns the very next Sunday morning and deal forcefully with this heresy.
"Folks," he said, as he took his place behind the pulpit for the morning message, "I've heard disturbing news about some of our saints. One of our elders has informed me that there are among us this beautiful Sabbath morning those who harbor a belief in ghosts. Please be honest, brothers and sisters: By a show of hands, how many of you believe that there are ghosts in this world?"
Some of the congregants raised their hands quickly, while some were more reticent. But over the next 20 seconds, almost half of the congregation had raised their hands.
The pastor was shocked, and he pressed on. "How many of you have personally HEARD the sound of a ghost?"
Almost as many hands were raised.
Grimly, the minister continued. "How many of you have actually SEEN a ghost?"
A smattering of hands went up.
Totally perplexed with the delusions of so many of the faithful, he asked an even more incriminating question: "How many of you have ever had SEX with a ghost?"
Not a hand went up, until old Farmer Jones in the back row finally, reluctantly, raised his hand.
The preacher was incredulous. "Farmer Jones," he thundered, "please stand up."
The old man slowly got to his feet.
"Farmer Jones, Do you mean to tell this congregation that you have actually had sex with a ghost?"
"Oh, I'm sorry," the old man muttered. "I thought you were talking about goats."
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
LOLOLOLOL 'clappy hands'. You had me right to the end.
Also, curious, is Mike Stand your name, or a piece of equipment? ;-)
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Mike Stand
Hey, Rev!
Thanks for giving me the clap.
My real name is Tom Foolery.
By the way, I've been lurking on this forum for years, and you are the only contributor I consistently agree with.
Maybe we should start a church, you think?
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
Praise the Flying Spaghetti Monster
Ramen
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Mike Stand
Amen. Personally, I'm a macaroni believer, myself.
Mike
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
While all macaroni is pasta, not all pasta are macaroni.
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Mike Stand
Rev, your are so right about the macaroni/pasta conundrum.
It's sort of like, "All really smart people are freethinkers, but not all freethinkers are really smart people." ... Or are they???
It all sort of boggles my 78-year-old mind.
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John P Maher
YES, ITS ALL B S, ITS THE HYPOCRITICAL FINGER POINTING< THE FLYING FICKEL FINGER OF FATE> EVERY HUMAN BEING HAS SOMETHING, SO SHUT UP YOU HYPOCRITS, ALL !!!
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David Arthur Lewis
Seriously John, why are you shouting? Did this article trigger you? Do you need a gummie to help you calm down? This is a discussion, not a battle. Turn off the caps lock. It's just rude, dude.
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Rev. BH
Dave, I mentioned that before elsewhere. John doesn't get it. Plus, I'm never sure exactly what he's talking about. Hypocrites, I guess.
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Amber Fry
I often wonder if he even knows what he's talking about.
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Reverend Paula Copp
Please don’t ask…
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Pastor George Day
John P. Maher,
Is your voice echoing from the pulpit?
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rebadams7
A A church is never meant to be a museum of Saints, but a hospital for all of us sinners trying to remain faithful along our journey. Sadly in all its forms from humorous innuendo popular in the past to everything goes and almost all of our media is very hard to avoid and ignore I believe people faith can do their best to ignore it and try to encourage others to do the same because like any addiction it takes more and more to get a response I believe it damages the human spirit as well as families and marriages
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He Who Breathes
As long as you repent/confess after you watch, all is OK.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
Its all ok to begin with. why repentbor confess normal human nature. do whatever you choose in the privacy of your own home and let it go.
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Mike Stand
Yep! Just confess your sin, and he is faithful and just to forgive you your sin and thank you from all unrighteousness. Once that transaction is completed, you free to repeat the process.
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Thomas P. Davis
Maybe not. Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
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Mike Stand
Well, Thomas, that's discouraging. If we sin willfully, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.?
Is that trueth? Reallyeth?
Verily, is there ANY sin that isn't a willful sin? Since when did "The devil made me do it" become an excuse? We've all "sinned," bro. And willfully, I might add. So we're all going to end up playing poker in hell for eternity?
By the way, why doest thou speaketh in KJL (King James Lingo), when the dude had been dead since 1625? Knowest thou not that the language she hath changed, verily many bunches of changes, in the last 399 years?
Mike Stand, you're ever-loving athiest.
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Thomas P. Davis
That verse applies to the cheap grace or Nicolaitans, who believe you claim to accept the free grace of God but still go on sinning. Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Does the picture of nailing Christ to the cross over and over sound refreshing? They make baptism a mockery. Do you know any dead person that can sin? Well in baptism you go down into a watery grave and die to your old nature. As Paul says you come up as a new creature. Well, many in our society today go down in a watery grave as a sinner and come up as a wet sinner, not having any intentions of changing the old ways. Jesus came as a human, lived as a human and overcame sin as a human. He says we can do all things through Him and that includes overcoming sin. 1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. The devil can't make you do anything. If he could then Christ would have lost at the cross and we would all be lost too. The devil's vote is against us and God's vote is for us. We cast the deciding vote. The text of KJV goes bac to the oldest manuscripts on earth and is without error. From what I have always heard from those in war, there are no atheist in a fox hole. However, from the witness that some people get from those that CLAIM to be Christian, I can understand why.
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Mike Stand
Hey, Buddy!
I know this reply belongs in a different conversation between you and me, part of the comments to the October 24 blog about Christians watching porn.
But there were so many replies and replies-to-replies in our conversation that all the automatic indentations left very little room to write.
So here's my comment to your November 8 post:
A few weeks ago, I replied to one of your messages and sorta "dared" your god to strike me dead during the major surgery I was going to undergo on November 13. You see, I find no evidence for your god, and was offering him the opportunity to give you the ultimate proof, if you will.
In my earlier comment, I said, in essence, "If I resurface here the first part of December, you'll know he didn't 'off' this old reprobate."
Well, I'm B-A-C-K.
Cheers.
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Pastor George Day
Mike Stand
That's evidence of his mercy. Be thankful.
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Mike Stand
Or it's not evidence of anything related to the supernatural.
Maybe it's just evidence that modern medicine represents tremendous advances for mankind.
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Nicholas J Page
Porn has been around for years I can remember here in England that there was magazines that were top shelf and full of nudity all models of course nowadays you can view it online.Me if I did view it I would keep it to myself and in the bedroom
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John Ash McCormick
Years?? There is porn in pompeii
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Karsten S. A. Johansson
They just recently found someone's "den" filled with olde style porn, too. Lots of tongue in cheek in the articles about what he may have been doing with so many sexual images.
I suspect he was the village pornographer. But we may never know. Maybe he was simply the village masturbator, lol.
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Pastor George Day
Nicholas J. Page,
It's great to hear that there's another ULC member from England! Are you based in London as well?
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Ari Joseph Bertine
It's not surprising in the least. Religions evolve with the changing of societal views. It's weird when they don't, honestly. The statement quoted is very on the nose. Cherry-picking what gets focus is so arbitrary. Why clutch pearls about sexual behavior but not glorifying violence, or unkindness, or inhospitality, who gets to decide which sins are fine to ignore? Why be upset about porn but not about using sacred things for profit, or failing to care for others? It's part of the evolutionary process to find out which rules a society no longer cares about and gradually phase them out of practice. We've seen it a lot in the last centuries, with different reactions to criminal behaviors like theft or rape, with different permissible modes of dress for men and women flipping back and forth so many times, even with rules being blatantly changed like declaring certain mammals and reptiles to be fish during Lent, simply because people got sick of restrictions. We've seen the rules change so, so many times concerning clothing and foods. Why wouldn't sex get a turn as society changes yet again?
Then again, I suppose a normal part of any normal cycle is also seeing certain people freaking out about it. I just wonder why it never seems to occur to them to expect it, or why they're so much more reactive to things that could be considered a titillating conflict. "Because it's not as boring" is not a good reason to home in on one sin while shrugging off others.
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Joy Ann Ackerman
For all those who are furious with religious or Christened beliefs let’s take all of those feelings away for a moment. Pornography plays an integral role in the way we interact with our partners and spouses. Studies have shown that people who regularly turn to pornography for gratification are doing immense harm to their relationships. When porn becomes a replacement for love and intimacy it definitely has an impact on a loving relationship. Porn has been shown to have devastating effects regarding sexual performance and pleasure and is creating a huge divide between a partnership. Erectile dysfunction definitely plays a role in this instance. Not being able to perform because of desensitization is a proven risk. Choose wisely as to the quality of a relationship and what it means to you and your partner. In addition to intimacy problems there is the dark underbelly of the process in which pornography is created. The majority of what is out there for your “harmless “ pleasure comes extreme violence, rape, cohortion and sex slavery. You may believe that you are viewing an innocent demonstration of sex when behind the scenes is a vast display of dominance, violating real humans that are not willing participants. Read up on what the real pornography world is about. Would you want your child, son or daughter forced into a sexually explicit industry for your pleasure. These are facts not judgmental opinions. Really think and talk about how this effects yourself and others who believe that this doesn’t hurt a marriage. Maybe that’s why they’re so many older divorced men partaking in this vast activity according to a previous post. It’s not a harmless, victimless activity.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
You know, if you change the words porn(ography) and sex to religion, your comment makes a world of sense.
Also, I suspect that some (or much) of what you say may be backwards. Issues where self-esteem, fidelity, love etc are lacking maybe the reason people turn to porn rather than the other way around.
Sometimes in research, the researcher already knows what they think the answer is going to be and curate their questions towards that goal. Also who is doing the research and who funds it is important. Not saying none of it's true for some people at some but by-and-large I think there's way more to it than 'porn is bad'
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Thomas P. Davis
Joy Ann listened to a doctor a few years back that says the same thing. One of the treatments he gives married couples is to abstain from sex and all the smut and sex toys for six months, then proceed back to the way that God created it. He claims that of those that do it. Their intimidate life returns to the honeymoon days. The medical community actually has a term for it, I just don't remember.
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Eric Laspe
"There was a time in movies and TV shows that nobody was even seen in a bed together."
That's simply false. Much of the earliest content captured on filmed was pornography.
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Donavan Wohlers
Rev. DW
If you ARE a CHRISTIAN, why would you watch it or have anything to do with it. But, YES it is wrong. If one starts watching porn, how much farther with they go??? When do you think it is time to stop sinning and start doing what the Lord has told us to do? We need to get with it in our lives and live FOR THE LORD, not for ourselves. He is in charge, and when we think we are and can stop watching, we are wrongful thinking our lives away.
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Kevin Venteicher
my own personal beliefs is i would rather them be pleasuring themselves att home or together willingly alone or together than out hurting others prayers
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
If priests can rape children with immunity from the church, then it's more then hypocritical to say porn is bad.
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Rev. BH
Raping children and looking at porn are two totally different things. Do not equate them.
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David Arthur Lewis
"Over Half of Christians Admit to Watching Porn"... and the other half are liars.
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John Ash McCormick
I know some and I believe it is closer to 20% who actually don't watch porn so about 30% are liars. Some of the 20% do tend to cheat on their wives so porn watching would be better in my opinion,
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Robert Gagnon
For one thing that is the percentage that admit it. When I read the statement the head of the house made about an app that his son could watch his internet usage, First thought was what about his burner phone with the gift card payment pan.
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Thomas P. Davis
Sex was given to one man and one woman by God during creation week to replenish the earth. Anything outside of that is considered fornication. Jesus said in the New Testament that we must keep the spirit of the law. If you lust after someone you are guilty of adultery. Explain to me how one can watch porn and not lust. Medically speaking it is also one cause of having an enlarged prostrate too.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
actually the medical cause of an enlarged prostate is thought to be a change in hormone levels and aging. also "medically speaking" masturbation reduces the probability of prostate cancer.
I haven't found anything, "medically speaking" about "lust" and prostate enlargement.
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Mike Stand
Rev, you make a good point, but many believers will say, "Well, we Christians place our faith above science."
But as Mark Twain wrote, "Having faith is believing in something you just know ain't true."--"The Adventures of Huckleberry Fin."
Christian, you may believe faith without works is dead. But I believe faith without evidence is foolishness.
Can I get an amen?
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Thomas P. Davis
From the medical people I read, sitting in front of pornography for long hours causes that organ unless relieved to stay in the enlarged condition.
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Mike Stand
Would you please give us the credible sources you are relying on?
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
"...creation week.."
is that like Shark Week?
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Jay Ryan
What about Shark Creation Week? I could go for some shark-on-shark action.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Dr. Father JJ,
The world was created in six days, did you not know?
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Russel A. Kester
Thomas, even the Catholic Church doesn't hold to the belief that the only purpose of sex is procreation. But more interesting in your comment was your writing that,."Sex was given...to replenish the earth." To replenish means to fill something up again which would mean that the Earth was full of people who somehow vanished and during creation week (your term) God started all over again. What happened to the first group?
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Thomas P. Davis
Russel, but the Catholic Church does teach that. We should derive our beliefs from God not man.That is why they are against contraceptives. If you use contraceptives that is a no no. It means that you are doing it for pleasure. That is also why me as a baby needed to be baptized right way for the sin that my parents committed in having me. That is where the idea of original sin came from. The Greek for replenish is to fill. Plus, we know from scripture, that we are all from one blood. Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation.
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Mike Stand
Thomas, this is fascinating. You pontificate (no pontif-pun intended) that "we should derive our beliefs from God[,] not man."
How, exactly are we to do that? Are we supposed to pray and ask god what our beliefs should be? If we do that, doesn't that create its own danger?
Old testament wise guy Solomon laid it out for us. "There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death." Proverbs 14:2.
So how do Christians say we should derive our beliefs from god? By listening to what HUMANS claim god told them. See, if you're going to get your beliefs from god, either you're going to get them directly from god--from his mouth to your ear--or you're going to get them indirectly--from the ear of a person.
If you're deriving your beliefs indirectly, through the ears of man, you're not necessarily getting the real deal, are you?
And if you're trying to divine god's divine will directly, by looking for a "feeling" within, are you sure the feeling you're feeling is god? Isn't it possible, as Dickens's Ebenezer Scrooge told one of the ghosts of Christmas, that what you're feeling is merely "an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of underdone potato"?
I'm sorry, my friend. I fail to see any logic in this.
By the way, bible believers call Solomon (mentioned above) the wisest man who ever lived. They're probably right. You'd have to be the wisest one of all to be able to have seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines (I Kings 11:3) and still get at least three books--including one actually named after you--in the "Good Book."
Your thorn in the flesh, Mike Stand (who, as Ron Reagan is proud of saying, is "not afraid of burning in hell")
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Thomas P. Davis
Mike God gives us those answers in His book. We should pray and read His Book for His beliefs. Yes, Solomon was telling the truth. If we follow the way that man leads, it will end in death. We are NOT to base our beliefs on feelings. How many babies born after high school prom, how many divorces from Las Vegas weddings, how many murders, etc. Yes, the bible says that Solomon was the wisest man of all. It DID not say he was the wisest man. Whom was he being compared to in the world at that time? Also, if he was the wisest man he would have listened to God and only had one wife. You misinterpret me too, since you are no thorn in the flesh. Why would you or could you be?
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Mike Stand
Hey, Tom! (Does anyone ever call you Tom, or do you prefer Thomas?)
You wrote, "We should pray and read His Book for His beliefs. ... We are NOT to base our beliefs on feelings."
Isn't that the darnedest thing?
Some experts estimate that there are at least 45,000 Christian denominations in the world. And every last one of them will tell they prayed and read the bible to find god's beliefs. And yet they differ from the other 44,999 denominations.
IF there were a god, and if he/she/it/they (the trinity) were all-wise, all-powerful, and all-loving, he (I'll settle on the masculine pronoun because it's widely used) could settle these 45,000 different interpretations of the bible in a heartbeat--without usurping anyone's "free will."
He's done it before. In Daniel chapter five we read that god wrote on the wall for the benefit of Belshazzar.
He could write on everyone's wall at once, and the whole would have a come-to-Jesus moment.
He could speak to every editor of every newspaper, and every influencer of every podcast in a dream and reveal himself to them and tell them to share that with their readers and listeners the next day.
Wouldn't that be something?
Do you think he ever will? Why not? Maybe he's not all-wise. Or all-powerful. Or all-knowing.
Or maybe he's simply NOT.
By the way, in bible times, god struck folks dead for thinking and talking the way I've been thinking and talking for years.
So far, he has overlooked me.
So here's a test. I'll be having major surgery next Wednesday. I'll be totally unconscious and under the knife for several hours.
If I'm not back here ranting by the first part of December, you can choose to believe god offed me. What a great scare tactic, right!?
If I AM back here the first part of December, it'll be obvious he didn't do me in.
Fair enough?
Nighty night! Sweet dreams.
Mike Stand (NOT your average thorn in the flesh, Tom)
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Thomas P. Davis
Mike, Tom is fine, I am not hung up on what people call me. I have heard 4,500 denominations and that was recently. That was up from 3,300 that I had heard decades ago. Whatever the number is, I am sure it will keep growing until the Lord returns. Us humans want everything our way. Yes, God could write more on wall or in the sky, but He has written enough in the bible. I'm afraid if people won't believe that they won't believe the other. Take when satan returns as Christ. People will believe it is Christ even though scripture has warned us that it is not, even in your story of Daniel and the writing on the wall. It took a woman to inform them of Daniel who could interpret it. Would those people that God speaks to believe Him or because it does not fit their image of Him would they just ignore Him. Just as we do, when our conscience speaks to us, and we ignore it. Yes, He did strike some dead but not others. He didn't strike Moses dead for striking the rock twice. Maybe He has overlooked you just as He overlooked most of us. After all He is not willing that any should perish. Maybe He knows your heart better than you think you know your heart. Usually, events happen in our lives that try to separate us from Him. After all the devil is into division. As far as your surgery, Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. Joh_8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, He will never do you in. Just look at the story of Job, the devil took his whole family out. They say the only reason he didn't take the life of his wife, was to let him live so she would nag him to death. I will pray that the surgery goes well. Don't let the bed bugs bite. We were all thorns in Christ flesh, but He still went through it.
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Mike Stand
Thomas, you wrote, "Yes, God could write more on wall or in the sky, but He has written enough in the bible."
Enough for whom? I ask. It appears he's written enough for you, but not enough for me.
My point earlier was that god COULD make his existence evident to everyone if he chose to. I gave two off-the-top-of-my-head ways he could do that, and I'm sure that any god worth his salt would have many more.
I've heard christians intone that god won't force anyone to go to heaven, because he knows they wouldn't be happy there.
When I hear that, I shake my head in puzzlement. These people who think they wouldn't be happy in heaven are supposedly people god created in his image. And if they wouldn't be happy in heaven--in god's image, at that--then god kinda messed up, didn't he?
Here's an admittedly feeble analogy, but I think it makes my point:
Imagine a family that lives in the Midwest: Dad, Mom, and three kids, ages 16 , 13, and 5. The Mom and Dad are planning to move the family to Southern California, where the kids will be just a block from the surf, and where they'll be able to play with their cousins who live in the same area.
In this analogy, Dad represents god, the kids represent us humans, and Southern California represents heaven.
Are you with me so far?
The 16-year-old and the 13-year-old are thrilled at the prospects of the move to Southern California.
But the 5-year-old is a belligerent little kid who pouts, "I'll just be bored! I don't want to go! I won't go. You can't make me go."
Does Dad say, "Okay then, the rest of the family will move, and we'll leave you behind. You'll probably die from starvation or something, but your mom and I love you too much to ever force you to do something against your will."
Does Dad say that? Of course not. The father knows that once the kid experiences life at the beach, he will love it. But right now he's just expressing childish rebellion.
So the father says, "Listen, young man, you're young and inexperienced. You've never lived at the beach, so you have no basis for saying you won't like it. I'm your all-knowing father and I know what's best for you. You're coming with the rest of us, and your mom and I know that once you've seen our new mansion where you'll have your own bedroom (no more having to share a room with your brothers) and your cousins close by and the huge ocean practically in your front yard, you'll praise me every day for the rest of your life."
Isn't that something YOU would do, if you were that dad? Isn't that something your god would do, if he were that dad?
As to the number of denominations worldwide, in 2022 Life's Little Mysteries reported, "Estimations show there are more than 200 Christian denominations in the U.S. and a staggering 45,000 globally, according to the Center for the Study of Global Christianity [based at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary]." (https://www.livescience.com/christianity-denominations.html)
But now even that "staggering" number may be out of date. The 2024 report from Overseas Ministries Study Center at Princeton Theological Seminary cites the latest study from The Center for the Study of Global Christianity study: "One of our most cited statistics is the number of denominations in the world, this year estimated as a perhaps shocking 47,000." (https://omsc.ptsem.edu/the-annual-statistical-table/)
You wrote, "...When satan returns as Christ[,] people will believe it is Christ even though scripture has warned us that it is not."
Good grief, man! What kind of diabolical god would allow a stunt like that?
The same kind of god who, according to you holy book, created two naive people, stuck them in a garden, and then placed a no-no tree in the middle of the garden and told the blissfully naked couple not to pick any apples. (I know, the book doesn't actually say "apples," but since all men have Adam's apples in their throats, I choose to assume the fruit was apples.)
As a loving father, would you tell your five-year-old, "Son, I'm going to let you go play in the back yard all by yourself. And in the middle of the back yard is a very deep well. I didn't put a fence around it, because I want to see if you'll obey me. So don't go near the well. But if you DO go over to the well, and stick your little head over the edge and holler, you'll hear an amazing and wonderful echo. What's an echo, you ask? Well, you won't know unless you holler into the well. But don't do it, okay? All right, little five-year-old, out you go! Have fun! I've got to run some errands but I'll be back tonight. Love you!"
How is that sick, sick father different from your god?
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Thomas P. Davis
I still have to stick with the bible and creation to know that there is a God that loves us. God gave us His law to live by. So, a drunkard or murderer or thief or rapist or adulterer who loves his lifestyle, dies and goes to heaven. None of those things are there, will he be happy. Or look at it the other way, I go there and expect to find happiness, and my wife has an affair, my daughter is raped, my son murdered etc. I rather stay planted in the ground than to leave this world for another like it. God allows/permits satan to prove his way is better than God's way. Look at what satan did to Job. We are in this life to form a character for the next, Let's look at how well these people did, Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds. They had no interest in changing their lives. Oh, by the way those verses should be a wakeup call for the church that believes the lie that they will be removed from this planet before the tribulation comes. God did not create to naive people. They were of superior intelligence to us today BUT God gave them free will. One was not happy being Adams equal and the other loved his wife more than God and they made unwise choices. Thankfully they repented. Some say that that the fruit was an apple, and it was cursed as well and that is where Osage oranges come from. God provides protection for us ( angels) etc.
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Pastor George Day
Mike Stand
Most of what you just shared is highly misleading and only partially correct. I wish I had the time to address the theology behind your claim. I will limit myself to this. Protestantism is of two major kinds: magisterial and radical. Maestereial indicates traditional teaching and radical ideas liberal or heretical. The very notion of Protestantism is a protest against Catholiccentralizedd gvernment and a return to the free expression of the Christian faith in line with the apostolic roots and relecting one' own culture.
The Gospel is not a behavior modification plan, which is precisely why we have unity in diversity. There is a third kind of Protestantism called great awakening which, while taken from both magisterial and radicalt primarily focuses on one's personal experience of salvation.
The above leaves a wide range of freedom of opinion, but as we are united in several interdenominational fellowships (viz Evangelical Alliance, Anglican Communion, Gafcon, Council of Chrches...), we all must agree on fundamental doctrines, i.e., Trinity and the Bodily Resurrection of Christ.
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RAYMOND BENITEZ
The Catholic priesthood is disproved in 1 Timothy 4:3, where Paul warns Timothy that in the last days apostates in the Church would forbid marriage. Catholic priests, contrary to the Bible, are forbidden to marry. In view of this verse, and since we're living in the last days, how can you possibly defend your priesthood?
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Mike Stand
Somehow part of my comments above were left in HTML.
The offending paragraph should read:
"The text of KJV goes back to the oldest manuscripts on earth and is without error." Really?
No lesser authority than The Billy Graham Association has spoken on this topic:
"... Modern translators have the advantage of using many older Greek manuscripts of the New Testament discovered since the King James translation was made. Most scholars consider these older manuscripts more reliable than the few later manuscripts available to those who translated the King James Bible. (https://billygraham.org/answer/is-the-king-james-bible-the-only-reliable-bible/)
You really should stay up on this stuff, Thomas.
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Thomas P. Davis
I don't read all of these, not enough time. I just notice my name on this one, Shouldn't listened to a man. The oldest are the dead sea scrolls, Rosetta stone and Cyrus cylinder and there is no discrepancies with them.
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Mike Stand
The Cyrus Cylinder and the Rosetta Stone both deal primarily with geopolitical issues.
The Dead Sea Scrolls are snippets of the bible.
To say there are no discrepancies among them is akin to saying there are no discrepancies among my cookbook, my college calculus textbook, and my map of New Caledonia.
It's true, of course, but it's also irrelevant.
In my humble opinion.
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Mike Stand
The Cyrus Cylinder and the Rosetta Stone both deal primarily with geopolitical issues.
The Dead Sea Scrolls are snippets of the bible.
To say there are no discrepancies among them is akin to saying there are no discrepancies among my cookbook, my college calculus textbook, and my map of New Caledonia.
It's true, of course, but it's also irrelevant.
In my humble opinion.
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Thomas P. Davis
Mike, from my study, the dead sea scroll contains the COMPLETE bible except for the book of Esther. Also, it is character per character correct. They claim that the reason for the absence of the book of Esther is because that is the only book in the bible that does not speak about God
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Mike Stand
Thomas, according to Clarence L. Haynes Jr., speaker, Bible teacher, and co-founder of The Bible Study Club:
"The 800 to 900 fragments that were discovered in the Dead Sea Scrolls contained PORTIONS of every book in the OLD Testament except for Esther, including the entire book of Isaiah" (published online by Bible Study Tools, https://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-study/topical-studies/what-every-christian-should-know-about-the-dead-sea-scrolls.html)
Having been to Israel many times and studying at The Shrine of the Book in Israel, I'm inclined to agree with Reverend Haynes.
Aside from the entire book of Isiah, The Dead Sea Scrolls contain only portions of the text, not the complete text. And they do not contain anything from the new testament, because they were written before the new testament was written.
And the fact that "they" say "the reason for the absence of the book of Esther is because that is the only book i the bible that does not speak about god" is pure speculation.
Two things are true here: (1) Esther is not included in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and (2) Esther doesn't speak about god. But there is NO evidence that I'm aware of that those two facts are linked.
I'd be interested to know where "they" discovered the reason why Esther wasn't included.
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Thomas P. Davis
Mike, it is information that I have studied or listened to for years, I did not know then that I should keep proof, back then I believed a man was only good as his word. As for Esther, I just did a word search, and no hits came up for God or Lord.
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Brian W. Kemp
"The idea that a benevolent God would create people with inherent desires like homosexuality, then condemn them to eternal suffering for simply acting on those desires is deeply troubling.
Similarly, the concept of damning young men to hell for experiencing natural urges like attraction to nudity feels fundamentally unjust. It seems illogical to believe a creator would instill desires within us, only to punish us for fulfilling them. This suggests a cruel and capricious deity, more interested in inflicting suffering than in guiding its creations. I believe in a God who is loving, kind, and compassionate, not one who delights in the eternal torment of its children. The notion of a God who knowingly creates beings destined for failure, then punishes them for their inevitable shortcomings, is deeply disturbing. It's akin to a sadistic torturer who enjoys the suffering of its helpless victims.
I cannot fathom a God who would create a world where natural desires are considered sinful and punishable. Such a deity would be a cruel and unjust tyrant, not the benevolent creator I choose to believe in.
So, "over half of Christians admit to watching porn," and the other half lie!
I bet the other half aren't lying about watching porn but instead are actually acting out on their fantasies (you know, with boys and girls). after all, we are talking about religionists and we know what their capable of around minors
JJ, It is rare for me to agree with Russel, even if only partially so. I am not HIGHLY offended, but generalizations and innuendo based upon religion is not fair, and you frequently don't speak very highly of it. If you are just trying to poke the bear, I get it, but let's be fair to all of the people who honestly lead decent lives and not judge them by the worst of their compadres.
Matthew, I may not speak highly of "it" because from what I've see of 'it", "it" is not nice nor very 'christian'.
Generalizations and innuendo I believer are indeed fair game. Some may not agree but when others expect to be given undeserved respect simply because of some fantastical fairy tale they have chosen to adhere to and profess while choosing to disrespect the beliefs of others as well as the disbelief of others (myself included), push back gonna happen.
Those people who espouse fellowship and goodwill, acceptance and equality are NOT the ones I refer to, are NOT the ones who draw my ire. But those folks that do participate here, if they feel painted by the same brush, well sorry about that but sometimes there's going to be collateral damage. And yet those 'others', who come in cocksure that their chosen fakery is the one true fakery (well, yeah, okay so I think it's ALL fakery but anyway) have no respect, no love, no affinity, no humanity for those that disagree with them. And they are IN here.
So let's a) agree to disagree and 2) acknowledge that I see my purpose here, to counter those apologists who want nothing more than to make everyone else believe as they do. And no, I won't accept their goal.
JJ, your comment is highly offensive and harmful, making several harmful generalizations about a specific religious group. It promotes harmful stereotypes and engages in baseless accusations. Such generalizations are not only inaccurate but also contribute to a climate of prejudice and discrimination.
russ, no they aren't. what you are doing is taking a public stance, offended and clutching your pearls so as to pretend to take the high-road.
I promote no harmful stereotypes whatsoever. In fact it's almost as if you recognize people in my comments and find the truth hurts.
As for baseless accusations, please elucidate, otherwise you are simply accusing me of something that you are making up so as to earn martyr points (collect enough martry points and exchange them for a beanie of prickers).
As for contributing to a "climate of prejudice and discrimination..." lol seriously. Do you not keep up with the news? It's always the kkkris chns claiming their being discriminated against because of their religion: working sundays, hiring non-kkksrs chns, refusing to bake cakes for gays, hating the transgendered AND in all cases getting the backing of the supremes so yeah, no I am not the one(s) doing the discrimination.
I watch and read your comments russ and what you, clearly, is an apologist for kkkristinsanity. Always 'fighting the good fight' in defending the honor of the church but that's because you see it as your honor and so you have been appointed Keeper Of the Peace here at ULC (until or unless you find reason to stir things up as suits you).
Finally, what's funny and all too common here with you is what you did right here; I made a comment about "..the other half aren't lying..." and rather than address my point that religionists (yet another expression you apparently don't like but tfb) are prone to being child abusers instead, you mount your high horse and come after me claiming discrimination and baseless accusations. Funny thing is, you give almost all of my accusations...base. It's what makes our repartee so enjoyable
Rev. Dr. Father JJ
It isn't discrimination. There are two genders only: Adama and Eve, not Adam and Steve!
JJ, I'm with Russel and Michael. Depicting half of the population engaging in pedophilia is highly offensive. The sins of the few should not be pushed on the many.
We are all punished for Eve's sin. Though at least there is a formula for wiping that slate clean.
Eve did not commit any sin; Adam had no backbone! His first wife, Lilith, was created from dust, just like Adam. Adam got ticked because Lilith wouldn’t follow his orders, so he told god that he wanted a different wife. Enter Eve, the fall guy for humanity. What kind of god gives out free will, then gets mad when we use it?
While i rarely agree with the conservatives and/Or bible thumpers on here, even i have to agree with others that is an unfair stereotype. maybe a few of them donfit along with the few more belonging to other groups or classifications. i would never say all of the other half of any group. But i do agree that the real percentage is higher and a lot of people lied. in the end, who really cares. watching some porn now and then never hurt anyone.