Students in a small Oklahoma public school district will no longer be forced to view a sign reminding them that God loves them, thanks to a national secularism advocacy group.
Earlier this year, a concerned resident of Skiatook, Oklahoma reached out to the Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) about religious messages they said were inappropriately posted all over local schools.
Passages such as John 3:16 and Daniel 3:18 were reportedly being prominently featured in some classrooms.
With school back in session for fall, the messages are gone, but the fight between the state of Oklahoma and the nation’s most prominent secular activists is just heating up.
Class, Turn to Page 3:16
The FFRF often has to gently remind public school districts they cannot endorse such overt religious messages.
“The district violates the Constitution when it allows schools to display religious symbols or messages,” FFRF Staff Attorney Chris Line wrote to Skiatook Superintendent Missy Bush.
The school district apparently decided not to fight the issue; it took the posters and signs down without complaint.
The FFRF celebrated the outcome as a win. “By taking this action, the district is showing respect not only for our secular constitution, but for the rights of students — particularly nonreligious and non-Christian members of the community — to be free from religious coercion in our public schools,” explains FFRF Co-President Annie Laurie Gaylo. “Students should not be proselytized by their teachers — let alone every day.”
The war between religion and secularism in Oklahoma schools hardly ends here, however. In fact, it may be just beginning.
The War Goes On
This isn't a one-off fight; in fact, there's currently another high profile effort to spread religious messages in Oklahoma schools.
State Superintendent of Public Instruction Ryan Walters reportedly plans to post the Ten Commandments inside classrooms across the state. In response, the FFRF has sent letters to Walters urging him to step away from the "indoctrination" of young people into Christianity.
"They want to have a Christian republic kind of like the Islamic republic in Iran. And they want to have a country where certain Christians are the only true citizens and the rest of us are second-class citizens," Gaylor explained to reporters a few months ago.
But Oklahoma officials don't see it that way. Walters, in particular, thinks it's important that kids have some exposure to biblical teachings.
“This is a war for the souls of our kids,” he declared shortly after his election last year. “I will do all I can to fight to get that nonsense out of schools and to put God back in schools,” he said.
The effort mirrors laws passed in other states mandating that the phrase "In God We Trust" be posted in public schools. Critics have argued it's a less-than-covert attempt to sneak Christianity back into the public school system, while supporters say it's simply an opportunity to promote the national motto.
What do you think? Does religious messaging have any place in public schools?
267 comments
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Duana Smith
I am a firm believer in separation of church and state! There are children of every faith in public schools and some are being raised as atheists or humanists. Religion is a personal choice and should only be discussed or taught in the home, by the parents, or at church with parents present. There are also different versions of Bibles and interpretations often vary from one religion to another. Prayer,also, should not be forced upon any child. Our Constitution guarantees freedom of religion, so the Christian religion should not be the only one considered, We do not have a national religion!
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Merlin
Depend on funding of the school. Public, NO.
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Rev. Jonathan Peebles
Church does not belong in the public classroom (church VS State) it has nothing to do with learning life lessons I am sorry to say and certain people have trauma thanks to the church
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David G Cassell
Christ absolutely needs to be in schools everywhere. Our nation is under attack from Satan, and this is how he gets ingrained into our lives.
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Lionheart
Sir David, Satan is a man made human construct, as is your christ. Indoctrinating children with religious lies, masked as truth, is not good for children, as evidenced by many Islamist jihadists that used to be children once.
🦁♥️
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JoM
I do not think that any specific religion should be promoted at ANY k-12 school. I do think every school should have a mandatory Comparative Religion Class , from 4th grade on. We all live here, we need to understand each other. Love light and blessings Rev Joanne
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Dr. Kirk W. Olsen, P.E.
Absolutely no one religion in public schools. Which one will the state side with?
U want religion in your school. Go to a religious school, hands off my tax money for your religious view.
Only fair way to do it, unless u want any and all religions equally represented.
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James L Hoppers
In 1954, Congress approved an amendment by Sen. Lyndon Johnson to prohibit 501(c)(3) organizations, which includes charities and churches, from engaging in any political campaign activity. The first amendment states: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Please note, this does not apply exclusively to Christianity, very important. These guidelines were put in place to prevent these organizations from interfering with one another. Is continuing to bicker over petty differences the will of the Universe or is there a higher road? Have a great day. It's a great day to have one! ✌️
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Sheena Karr
We've taken the Bible at of school, and with it went discipline, respect, and now what we have in its place is chaos and violence and disrespect. By taking God away from our children. We now have children who commit horrendous crimes and do unspeakable. acts and think that it's okay.
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Tecla Caryl Loup
That's a load of BS. Dunno where you grew up/went to school, but to imagine that there was a Golden Age in the past where everyone was God-fearing and morally upright is to fool yourself. Are you thinking of the Depression era? The early 1900s? The 1800s?? The 1700s??? Plenty of people were not your middle-class moral types, especially if you look at the lives of those who were ordinary folk. There was no middle class. Think of the depraved Irish, for example, needing wheelbarrows in order to stand more or less upright. Of course they were ignorant Papists, right? And then the evil Jews, who were far worse! Or those we deify as Real American Exemplars such as the Earp brothers, Doc Holliday, Bat Masterson and many more from the frontier era, not to mention the Depression-era folk heroes such as the Barrow gang, Mr. Floyd, Mr. Dillinger, etc., etc. Many of these were thought of as heroes back in their day but I would hesitate to say that they were strict believers in the Ten Commandments. And their admirers would have had to make an interesting leap of faith to believe that these guys were morally upright.
I've spent some time out of my Midwestern small-town cocoon, and while it is as familiar and comforting as my dad's old Pendleton shirts, I learned a lot about people from faraway places and shirtless backgrounds.
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Matthew D. Mackie
Can’t we work the Ten Commandments into “ten things I learned in kindergarten “ Be kind Help each other Murder is wrong
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Peter Senderowitz
Seperate Church and State, religious belief is a personal choice not shared by everyone. Thus,l et each tend to their own spiritual garden , in private , with or without other gardeners cultivating the seeds of their own belief systems. Tom Pain
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
To whomever responded to my post and said there'd be a problem if I was shoving my religion down his/her kids throats. Well first of all, I never said that because your kids are probably more stupid then you are since you can't read. Slam. You put words in my mouth that I never said then in return I'll slam you. Show sole damn respect and you'll get it back in return. Slam me and I'll give you a triple whammy of disrespect. I can't say the words I'm thinking but in public I would do humiliate you a yellow stream would be running down yoyr lags. Don't swear at me .
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Brien
I said it and I meant it. You do not get to decide what my children are taught. You do not get to indoctrinate my children into your messed up mythical beliefs. You may teach yours as you see fit. You may believe in whatever garbage you chose to. You may not force it on my children. You may send yours to religious school of you wish. But the PUBLIC classroom is to be free of religious bias, and free of bigotry. Now you know where that statement came from. Sorry to disappoint, but I bend knee to no one, including you. I am not slamming you, I am just showing you the line. Peace ☮️
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Daniel Gray
You mean the line that has been proved constantly that does not and never has existed?
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Christianity founded as a state religion does not make a theocracy. A theocracy will only exist the Day history returns So please choose your words or wisely.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
the·oc·ra·cy [THēˈäkrəsē] NOUN a system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god: "his ambition is to lead a worldwide theocracy" · "it is a society just emerging from theocracy"
Dream on KASE.
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Cheryl Pettijohn
I am an evangelical Christian and an educator, religious sayings DO NOT belong on walls in schools. A teacher has a first amendment right to put something small on their desk as I also have the right to put a pride flag on my desk. I can wear whatever jewelry I wish, including a cross. I cannot post things on my wall that endorses any specific socio-political message, including Bible passages. Separation of Church and State is important.
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Douglas Stephen Saldivar
Our spiritual, ethical life is a lot simpler that any organized religion wants us to believe. Those of us of a certain age learned the "Golden Rule" in public schools. Really, isn't that all we need ?
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Theresa C. Marquess
Do we really want to open that door and expose our young children to all religions at tender ages? As parents, we are trying to set their moral code and values so that they will last them a lifetime. By allowing one religion to give its voice, we are opening the door for all religions to add their voices. Children can easily be manipulated to accept things that may not be in accord with the family's teachings. Yes, Comparative Religions do have a place, but in higher education, where young people can think for themselves.
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Lisbeth Kieran Bushey
Religious messages have no place being posted in classrooms. Go ahead and teach about the history of all religions from a neutral, secular point of view; just don’t be forcing one religion on everyone. If you want to post religious posters in your classroom and/or only teach one religion from that religion’s point of view, go work for a private religious school.
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Deborah Jean Howard
I do not feel that scriptures are hurtful to children. If you have to take down certain religious things from the schools. Then all religious things should be taken down. Not just Christian. Then all religious stuff should be taken out of school then. As for flags the only flag I feel that should be at the school grounds is the American flag and whatever state they are in.
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Joseph J Soulagnet
I believe in the separation of church and state otherwise as the article states, we end up with an American Taliban (Christian fascism). Keep church at church. Our democracy and economy are not built on Christian ideals.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Bs. Trade itself comes from the basic belief system in any culture . And we don't live in a democracy. We live in a democratic Constitutional Republic. That is the only democracy we have in it. It is not absolute. Our economic is based on capitalist practice of free trade. But, free it's not because of constant govt intrusion almost making ot hard for a small businessman to survive. Everything is based on Judeo/Christian ideas. You had a very poor education in American Government or civics. Whatever you called it. And Erica history. Remugion has always played a big part. Government has always tried to weaken that hold.
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Rev. Uncle-Fatty
Any PUBLIC Building, including Public Schools, that display The Ten Commandments or Any Bible Paraphernalia... needs to ALSO Display a Representation of ALL other religions... Including but not limited to Satanic Pentagrams, taro cards, Buddha Statues, King Tut, jim jones, The Anunnaki, and yes... a spaghetti strainer... R'AMEN..!
Either Way, One or All would be in direct contradiction, of the FIRST 16 WORDS of the 1st Amendment... ...of the Constitution of The United States... To witch Mr. B. Franklin & Mr. T. Jefferson agreed and said... "These first of the first are the Base, The Footing of the Foundation... Without These First of The First... is Nothing worth Building a Nation on... ALL that follow, are bound to these words... represent WHAT America IS... ect... ect..."
The First Amendment Gives ALL Religions the Right To Speak. Not Just Christo-Fascist voices... The RED LETTERS of a certain book... are being ignored as well... as our 'leaders' Pit US Against Each Other...
( I met Jesus last week... he's washing feet at the Mexican Border... crown of razor wire... pigeons by his side...)
over 18,000 Gods have been worshiped in the time of man. over 3,000 in today's perceived reality... You pick 1, She picks one... I choose none. WHAT is the Difference Between US..?? Hint: it's NOT 2997... it's 1. ONE. Uno. WE are all created from the same SpaceDust that makes up the entire universe and beyond...
The only thing that Separates Us, that Divides Us, that Pushes us away from each other... IS US..! + & - forces... I choose +..!!! Love Always WINS. hate never survives... BE the Light, that attracts the moth..! or be the Monkey in the Corner banging drums & cymbals... screeching insanely... (yagh... super attractive...) It's NOT the JOB of Christians to Call OUT Others, for any reason. What RED LETTERS said, "F THEM..."..?? Any Pastor, Minister, or Podium Speaker that uses 'The Lords' name to 'Other' the others... MISSED The POINT..!All Hail The Great Flying Spaghetti Monster... R'Amen..!! P.S. Birds Aren't Real...
While America was founded by & on Christian Principles, all 55 signers agreed... This Land was made for ALL..!
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
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Yakubu M Kenneth
Darkness and light are not compatible
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Daniel Charles Blecha
Sadly I can only shake my head at the smallness of human adults!
I must be from another solar system just stranded here.
As I watch , and as any truly intelligent beings would see, seeing all our the whole (rather than the narrow nearly always wrong that human adults can as they are conditioned to not see but blindly react): people are fragmented feeble nitpickers who always rather "do the caveman survival, reactionary thing": fight / attack, ignore/ freeze hoping it goes away or run from whatever.
What we see & Comprehend is oh so simple & clear : that being even religion is "only about details" rather than THE NATURAL FLOW OF THE UNIVERSE. While living the body, mind & soul are one & upon death, as energy & matter cannot be destroyed or created, it only changes form, the all soul " lives on" ( and likely not in the heaven as most imagine, but rather in higher form of being).
Hence it should not matter nor be needed by anyone to have sayings & phrases conditioned in nor printed here & there but rather simple logic... i.e. no need for commandment that says no stealing when logic / intelligence says "it makes no sense to steal. It is counterproductive!"
We here at THE MAGIC SHOULDER guide beyond conditioned in anything to super Extrapolation where logic allows effortless free flowing existence BEYOND MERELY HUMAN.
( äsk any child anything & they have logic, not programmed reactions thus great intelligence. Sadly adults condition full brain function out guaranteeing small matters becoming EVERYTHING.., and that is always regressive).
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Rev. Rory
There is a poster called "The Golden Rule." It has a quote or interpretation from all major religions to show what they have in common, even when worded in a different way. That poster on the wall of a public school classroom, might (might) be okay as an educational tool. Otherwise, keep it in church or at home, please.
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Michael Howard Schrader
No, it does not. Public institutions should be neutral, and not advocating any particular point of view.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Great. Then your idea of public institutions opens up a wide can of worms. Because business, schools. religion, etc is all public. Choice of words and better demzntics.
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JaZe
Trying 3rd time. Wouldn't it be better and less contentious for schools to have a small chapel/prayer room where staff and students could sit and independently read quotes or short extracts from their religious books during break time? It would be refreshing and reassuring, leaving classrooms free for the learning of the sciences and the arts.
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JaZe
Isnt it odd that my comments always encounter the 'this page isnt loading' ? And I dont even swear 🤔
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Catherine
Sounds like an ISP or local (your computer or phone) slow down that causes page loading to time out. Could be apps running in the background, or permission settings as well.
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James Eric Rodgers
Isn't it a shame in modern society that true scholars can't come up with a non bias class called the intro to world religion and theology. Trying to give broad overview of belief from all regions of the world. Not the difference in belief. But hi light the similarities. This could be a non mandatory class that would progress never pushing a secular or denominational sway. Obviously scholars from all religions would have equal input. The big picture would be that there is a god, regardless what name you call him or her, that you have freewill in belief and that one person's beliefs are no less important than anyone else's. That's the reason you have a personal relationship with God . Never confuse God with religion
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JoM
I took the exact class you are describing. I was a college class, but it didn't need to be. The book is called World's Religions. author. Huston Smith
It's a guide thru many of the worlds religions. Each written by an expert in THAT religion.
The second book in that class was. The Ways of Religion Edited by Roger Eastman Both are EXCELLENT! FYI the class was taught by a Presbyterian minister, Roy Altman. Best class I ever took.
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Robert Luis Martinez
As A Christian I say they don’t take it off Unfortunately the enemy doesn’t want folks to hear the word of God
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Brien
What God? Who's God? What makes you good enough to indoctrinate my children? I think your beliefs and mythical being are evil man made constructs to create fear and kill with no consequence. Have a nice day.
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JoM
Not trying to be rude....but why just your religion? I'm sure, in every US school, that there are many children who do not practice Christianity . Why should they not see their faith represented with posters on the walls? I think that just showing one religion , suggests disrespect for all others. I believe that THAT is the root of most of the anger in this country. Just my thoughts Love. Light. And blessings, Rev Jo
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Robert Stephen Hotz
I’m deeply theistic and I simply do not understand the pre-occupation some folks have with arguing for the right to put words on a wall, regardless. It’s silly and absurd that someone would use moral authority to justify scribbled quotes on a wall. What a childish endeavor and an abuse of God. Seriously, most non-Christians have a general idea what the 10 Commandments are, where to find them and most Christians are in no need of cutesy wall decor to remind them who to honor and who not to covet or kill. It’s nothing but a thinly veiled and extremely arrogant power-flex, and nothing else.
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Rev. Laurie G. Cleveland RN
Try for third time. Here's my take on it. If this is, indeed, a public school, than take them down. If, howrver, it is a school run by a Christian school, suck itbup buttrrcupnand I would say that for any private school run by whomever.
What really gets me that in Boston, they banned kids from wearing necklaces or whatever of a religious nature; however, they sllowed Muslim girls to wear hajibs and "modest" clothing which regardless of terminology. Is a symbol of their faith. If you make a rule that nobody can do something and you see this, then the Boston zschool system is violating their own rule. When you make a rule, there can be no exceptions.
In Brookline, MA, there is Maimonedes, a jewish school. The boys may have to wear yamakas. So whst happens if it more convenient for somebody of a different faith goes to that school? Well. They have to follow the dress code. Same for Catholic schools. Etc. Whst happens if a girl wants to participate in sports. Say field hockey or swimming? You cannot do any sport wearing that garb.
As for the 10 Commandments. A little reminder never hurt anyone.
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
I’ve been a Secular Humanist Pantheist (SHP’er) since I found out that SHP’ers have the only provable God, ergo, if SHP’ers, have the only provable God, this means that those not accepting the fact, that God and nature are the same thing, are atheists.
The “Ten Commandments” ( if they are allowed to be posted at all, which they shouldn’t) the 10 commandments most include who made these commandments; was is, allegedly, given to Moses (who never existed) by the Hebrew God, or had the Hebrew God, converted to Christianity, because, by then, the Hebrew God had fathered (via, the Holy Ghost) as son, who was baptized— hence the Hebrew God’s son, became the world’s first Christian.
So most of the Ten Commandments, wold be posted on public property ( schools and police stations) as the “Christian God’s Ten Commandments” and if they were being posted, in a non-Christian area, they might read “Commandments one must follow, when in a Christian-majority area.” What could possibly go wrong?
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Daniel Gray
They are posted in the SCOTUS debating room, And have been for over 180 years. Newdow tried to force the SCOTUS to take them down and the SCOTUS bi-slapped him in a 9-0 decision telling him to go pound sand.
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Liliana Janeatte Vasquez
Education is a fundamental aspect of humanity. Education is also power, hence why it wasn't until the invention of the printing press and the need to sell more newspapers that modern education evolved from and why it was then determined that the masses needed to be educated and not just the elite. Now that the masses have a better understanding of the world that surrounds them people in religious circles of power no longer like that...RELIGION is made up. It's merely hypothesis of a sort and should be discuss at home or whatever religious institute you frequent. Public education should be universal and not about one groups obsession with a hypothesis of an all seeing entity.
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Marion Sowerby
I had hoped that this page was beyond all the "New World Order" conspiracy rubbish, but clearly not. If you want your religion to be taught about in a school, then you must also teach that there are multiple faiths or all kinds from across the world - some of which are way older than Christianity. Many people across the world are turning away from church because it has quite simply become hateful. There are few preachers of any faith who don't rail against those of other beliefs, calling them evil or heretical or whatever. The more vocal Christians in the US demonstrate this all too well - and their children are deciding that despite their upbringing, they don't want the hate. People are seeing this for what it is now precisely because the indoctrination from an early age has become less and less over the years. Rather than "othering" people, you should see what you can learn from them.
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Lisbeth Kieran Bushey
I wonder how many of the “New World Order” nuts realize it’s just antisemitic BS without outright saying it’s antisemitism. Or maybe they do know and they’re just too chicken to admit outright that they’re bigots.
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Marquita Phyllis Greig
The Constitution separates states from religion. So, no. Unless, it's a private religious school. Again, private school, not public.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
No the Constitution states there be no established religion . No separation of church and state
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
No the Constitution states there be no established religion . No separation of church and state
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Todd Murchison
If churches want to be involved in politics at any level? The registration price is paying taxes. If churches use our roads, utilities, public servants, ATC, FDA, have military security etc . . . . . they either pay taxes or silence themselves. Therefore - if they want Biblical verses everywhere? That is a book of evil, violent pornography my children should not being seeing. Ezekiel 23:20-21 is just one little example.
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Rev. Rory
Churches don't pay taxes because it is a hold over from the days of wars and to get across Europe, a deal was made with the churches. Let the armies through and we won't tax your church. Thank the Romans (nope), blame modern day politicians.
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Catherine
Booyah!
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
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Geoffrey C. Olive
Along with nationalism, racism, colonialism and a few other “isms”, religion is the biggest divider of the human race! Until these are stamped out, humans will always be divided into groups who think they are right and superior to everyone else! Christianity is the worst of them all!
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
You're so full.of misguided hatred. Religion is a necessary requirement for all people. Myths are needed hether historically true or.not. There is a need for it in humanity. A world devoid of any religious upbringing ging would be a sick world. You should read some anthropology or sociology that accepts and teaches that theory. Humznity is a religious social being and always will be. It has brought.more good to the world then division. Only when it becomes defensive fanaticism and seep in only out of defense of one system trying to destroy an age old culture if failanguage. nguage.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
You would require religion for all people - and we don't know what fascism is?
WOW.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
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Edward L St.John
It should have never been taken out.
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Judith
I wonder if people would still object if they took the “shalt nots” out? Would it be okay if they posted: it’s wrong to steal; it’s wrong to kill; it’s wrong to lie; it’s bad to have sex with people you haven’t committed to ) spread social disease, cause pregnancies in which a child is not supported or may n but killed before it of born), etc.
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Amber Fry
We already do that with the laws. Humanitarian efforts also cover those things. It isn't strictly biblical but based in what society decides it wants to live by on the whole. Consenting adults should be left to their own but how people treat each other over all in the lying, stealing or harming others in any way are things people generally rather like. Religious or not, who wants to be assaulted or taken advantage of?
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Liliana Janeatte Vasquez
If God gave humans FREE WILL then religion decided nope we are going to create laws because we are greater than the GOD we so proudly pretend to represent
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Timothy C Stone
The only 'religious' statement that should be allowed in our Public schools is the Golden Rule. It is taught in all religions.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
It is taught in one form or another in all religions - and largely ignored in many.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
Good, religion only belongs in religious schools. If parents want children to pray, then they should ask that a special room be set aside where ALL children can pray, including catholic children, muslim children, jewish children, children whose family practices paganism, etc.
If one religion is allowed, then ALL religions should be allowed, without exception. So for those saying "Religion belongs in schools", well then fine. I guess you don't mind ALL religions, including ones you may dislike, are there as well.
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Arneteria Benford
Religion needs to stay out of schools.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Theology is a liberal art. Therefore comparative religion should be taught.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
I agree with leaving the bible quotes in the classroom. But in doing so, there also needs to be quotes from The Satanic Temple, the quran, the veda, humanism and any other form of thought (might as well include communism as well). It can't be just about x tianity because, well, that would mean excuding all other religions and we know that x tians are NOT like that at all
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
You are so wrong. Anything that threatens our system should be destroyed. Communism has nopart in America. Neither dies the satanic chapel or any form that wants to destroy what we built. Free ideas of thought and speech go only so far. When it comes to undermine those beliefs it.must go to abolishment. Just like Islam is fine but their wanting to establish Islamuc law is not. Every religion has its own.laws that have adapted to civil law. And the Government stays out of it. Islamic law goes beyond that. It is political so it can't be allowed. Just an example.
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James Riggle-Johnson
What God do we talk about in school? Which verses should be allowed, and which should not? You certainly cannot only choose those pertaining to Christ because not everyone thinks Christ is the savior.
Religion needs to be left to Sunday school, church services, bible study, all anywhere but the classroom. We are a country that guarantees freedom of religion, so you can worship in any way you wish, and the government cannot interfere. That does not mean you get to make everyone else indoctrinated to your beliefs. Leave public school for teaching reading, writing, history, mathematics, and science. Parents can add religion to their children’s education how they see fit but do it at home or in church.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Theology like any other liberal art is part of the curriculum. Yiu can teach comparative religion just like comparative literature. My high school did it pretty well. I learned a hell of a lot in that class. Thete 7s nothing wrongbteaching the myths of of Creation that exist in all belied systems. You.might learn more about the world we live in and how we see it. The Greqt Floid can tell many about fertile crescents. When they flood they flood for thousands of miles sometimes. And boom you have the story of Noah, etc. Or anyone else in a different religious context. Myths whether fully true or particularly true are needed in anyone's educational upbringing. It creates imagination to grow. Sadly, whete we are heading today in education doesn't allow room for storytelling. Mythical teachings, etc which are needed in the classroom for an all around growth experience. And I am no educational expert. Just common sense.
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Rev. Ken Shostad
In 1962 they [Globalists] pressured our government into removing The Ten Commandments from our public school system.
https://youtu.be/tHSS_V7DgAw?si=SLrXyfl1-JHCbDNb
Since that time ALL negative metrics have grown exponentially, why? Because the teachings of Christ Jesus has been removed... Our country was mirrored in The Holy Bible and was setup to be a Christian nation, PERIOD... Just look at all the stats and the falling of this nation, once gone it will be hard to mimic...
Zimmerman studied the downfall of civilizations and one thing they ALL had in common are the following 5 conditions: 1) Alternative forms of marriage [men to men, women to women, etc] 2)Feminist movement flourishes, women lose their inclination for childbirth and childbearing. reduction in the birthrate. 3) Increasing desire and celebration for adultery 4) Growing disrespect for authority, both parents and others. 5) Greater tolerance for sexual perversion; trans, LGBT, gay and lesbian, etc...
Does any of this look or sound familiar?
GOD Bless America, her True POTUS, her Peoples, and Lands... AMEN...
WWG1WGA... Q-ANON... Deus Vult...
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
Btw, this is a secular nation, not a christian nation, not a catholic nation, not an evangelical nation, it's secular. In fact, our Founding Fathers made that very clear in the Treaty of Tripoli which is a part of the US constitution. It's also a part of our nation's 1st amendment. A full separation of church and state.
No law shall be written to recognize any national religion.
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Marquita Phyllis Greig
I agree with you.
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Liliana Janeatte Vasquez
agreed
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Daniel Gray
Seems the founding fathers do not agree with you
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Brien
Then perhaps you should go visit the founding fathers. Many of them believed in slavery as well. Most of us have moved beyond their archaic beliefs. The founding fathers were simply tired of being ruled by some crazy king, so they decided not to be. Those you speak of are a part of our history, but they do have a darker past.
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Daniel Gray
Then maybe you should go visit the founding fathers and have them rewrite the Constitution to suit you? I dont foresee that ever happening.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Thank you for that Fox News report.
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Lisbeth Kieran Bushey
You do realize that blaming “globalists” is just another way of saying you’re an antisemite? Every comment you’ve made here reeks of antisemitism and bigotry in general.
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Rev. Rory
That is a sad sign off, Rev. Ken. A rev that believes in Q, a Nazi phrase and a battle cry from the year 1096. Believe what you like. Keep it out of the law and schools.
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Catherine
@Rev. Ken Shostad
Judge much? What would Jesus say...
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Geoffrey C. Olive
K Shostad Please check your facts before making statements about JC’s teachings! The Ten Commandments were of Judaism and Israelite origin from the time of Moses! JC may have referred to them, but the majority (six of the ten) were related to the Israelite way of life rather than human behaviour in general (Thou shalt not kill, etc!)! The Ten Commandments were not JC’s unique teachings! JC was a local Jewish prophet whose existence was completely rewritten by misguided followers for self serving purposes, cf. Joseph Smith and Mormonism!
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
This is the problem. Christians back down without fighting. When you back down they will encroach more on one's religious rights. Sorry folks but faith needs to exist on all school campuses. It's not being forced down anyone's throats. If you don't like it ignore it. Pretty simple for you crybabies
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
Which faith? Christianity? Judaism? Buddhism? Mormonism? Islam? Hinduism? Others?
Let’s focus just on Christianity for a moment. There are over 200 denominations of it in the US and over 42,000 globally. Within each exist other “branches.” Presbyterians have four main ones; PCUSA, EPC, UPC, and OPC, and additional smaller branches.
The reason for these different Christian denominations and branches boils down to each having different beliefs. So which one is the “right” belief??
Of course Methodists and Baptist’s have varying beliefs with them.
Who determines which has the true, right, proper set of beliefs?
So much simpler to keep religion in the home, the houses of worship an in religious schools.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Christians used to torture heretics and burn witches. Really looking forward to going back to the good 'ol days, aren't you KASE?
Sane people have about had it with Christians and their fascist theocracy. Chew on that the next time you lament "backing down without fighting".
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Catherine
@Keith Allen Steele Eash
Which faith should exist on all campuses? Yours alone?
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
All that do not in any way intend to harm others. Now if it's a religious school of course the faith that the school founded on is the main central focus but should allow other faiths to have a presence if they have students there. I would not accept Satanic group because they are in opposition to other faiths.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Christianity isn't in opposition to other faiths???
ROFL!!!!!
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Catherine
@Keith Allen Steele Eash
I have to ask. Which faith does not oppose other faiths?
I think learning about any religious practice does not require acceptance. The purpose is to remove mystery, quell misunderstandings, and recognize what we all share in common aside differences. In fact, having differences is something every human shares which is a good starting point.
A long time ago when I thought I was a good christian, I said to someone who practices Buddhism, that I didn't like certain people at a particular church because... insert long list of broken Commandments. She said, "Isn't church a good place for them to be?" My hypocrisy, prejudices, and better-than-thou attitude was nearly so tangible it almost choked me. That's about the time, like a lot of people do at such a point, I began asking myself, "What would Jesus say or do?" Thereafter, I began thinking more before the mouth could run away, dragging me with it.
I hadn't thought I thought I was better than anyone else. But there it was.
My chief beef with lack of comparative religions in public schools, is how organized religions - really most faiths it seems - want people not of their faith to think and do like they do. How has that been working out? Isn't that why this discussion and others like it persist?
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Cheryl Pettijohn
Nonsense
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Tareq Asfour
nothing should be removed instead there should be like an open forum discussion between the school board and the parents, and to be discussed all out in the open. sadly, ever since President Biden became elected, he has been acting like the antichrist.
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Lionheart
Does anyone know if Joe Biden has a palliative care assistant? I understand Hospice has been called to the White House a few times. Not sure if that was for Joe, or Hunter. Is it true the left leaning Democrats are looking at renaming the White House to another color.....or colors?
"Somewhere Over the Rainbow" has suddenly taken on a whole new meaning. Let's blame the Wizard of Oz. 🤭
🦁♥️
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Tareq Asfour
nothing should be removed instead there should be like an open forum discussion between the school board and the parents, and to be discussed all out in the open. sadly, ever since President Biden became elected, he has been acting like the antichrist.
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
And your sources of that “truth?”
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Cheryl Pettijohn
Nonsense. This is what indoctrination looks like.
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Najah P Tamargo
Minister Najah Tamargo USA
I agree with C. Edgar that in schools are designated as "Christian" or "Catholic", those religious doctrines would be part of their teachings. But in public and other schools, those doctrines are NOT appropriate. Religious and spiritual beliefs are a private and family thing. But it seems that this folks want to PUSH their beliefs on others. That is just simply WRONG! It coms down to that pesky little thing call the First Amendment of the Constitution. You know.....freedom of religion and speech. It is the reason our Founding Fathers wrote it. They were over the religious persecution thing and that is what our country was founded on. Keep your personal stuff to yourself and do not try to FORCE IT DOWN MY THROAT.....or my children.
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Rolando Couce
All this is the plan of the world globalist to destroy this country and the Democrats are helping them
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
Do tell! What are your sources of this information? Fox? Newsmax? Other christian nationalist tropes
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Michael Hunt
People who keep using the term "Globalist", you do realize that is the term used by Anti-Semites to denigrate the Jewish people, right? https://www.ajc.org/translatehate/globalist
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
And yes they do denigrate the Jews. Nothing has changed.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Comment removed by user.
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Timothy Paul. Forrester
This Gaylor or whoever is against these signs being posted in schools is fool of or for a fool. When I was in school I was taught that this Nation or country was founded upon God's word: our for father's prayed everyday before going into session. They believed in God and in a Nation was God founded. I have to stand with all who is fighting this nonsense and I stand with them that religions should remain in school, and for those who believe different should have the right to post their beliefs.
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Maximillian Martin
The only fool is YOU!!! If you want that bs forced on people, MOVE TO THE MIDDLE EAST!!! This is NOT AND NEVER WILL BE a christian nation IN ANY WAY!!!! NO THEOCRATIC BS WILL BE ALLOWED!!!!!
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Daniel Gray
Um sorry again If we are talking about 13 colonies belonging to the British Empire, whose king presided over an imperial church, then yes, British citizens residing in those colonies lived under Christian rule. Those colonies were founded as outposts of a Christian nation.
https://www.cnn.com/2015/07/02/living/america-christian-nation/index.html
95% of the 200 Founding Fathers were practicing Christians and exercised their faith in public office, and at home. And the other 5 percent acknowledged God and the Bible as divine truth. And only two were deists. All according to their papers and personal records available at the Smithsonian.
In 1774 the first official act in the First Continental Congress was to open in prayer, which ended in these words: “…the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son, our Savior. Amen.” They then went on to read four chapters of the Bible.
All but two of the first 108 universities founded in America were Christian.
In 1782 the United States Congress declared, “The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.”
In 1789, Congress, in the midst of framing the Bill of Rights passed the first federal law touching education, declaring, “Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.”
In 1854, the House Judiciary Committee said: “in this age, there is no substitute for Christianity…That was the religion of the founders of the republic, and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants.”
In 1892 the Supreme Court conducted an exhaustive examination of America’s heritage, starting with Columbus, and then cited 87 precedents to conclude that this was a “Christian nation.”
So sorry but history and fact do not agree with you
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Who are you trying to convince DG?
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Rev. B
Himself.
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Daniel Gray
Nobody. Just trying to educate you on how wrong you actually are.
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Brien
You can get the same education reading a cereal box. Here is education for you, your writing is dripping with hate and bigotry. Your abuses are too numerous to count.
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Daniel Gray
if that is your way of telling us how you received your education, then that explains a lot about you
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
You would have to have facts and knowledge to do that. Unfortunately all you have is faith, bias, and delusion.
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Daniel Gray
No that is all you seem to have considering how many times you have been proved wrong
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Daniel Gray
Nobody kenny, I am showing how wrong your myth is
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
You have shown yourself, that's for sure.
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Amber Fry
Yes, they were, as part of England. When we developed our own country they made an effort NOT to let religion interfere with government and vice versa. We literally had a war to separate from England and run things our own way.
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ServantOfJudgement
Daniel,
Those are great tidbits! I knew about the universities but not all the other info, much appreciated! There are tons of organizations that were started by christians such as YMCA. They all get infiltrated by antichrists and naturally drop their ties to Christ. They all do. Christians pave the way to freedom for all, Satan creeps in then expelles the Christianity, destroys the freedoms, destroys the charity and blames the christians. Again and again we see this.
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Catherine
@Daniel Gray
- CNN... really? Why did you omit the paragraph following your plagiarized 'statement'? (Quotes have a purpose. )
"Those colonies were founded as outposts of a Christian nation. With American independence, however, the British monarchy lost control over its American subjects. Champions of American liberty then celebrated their religious as well as political independence."
Tolerance, as discussed in Marsh v. Chambers, 463 U.S. 783 (1983) is not establishment.
So? It's no secret that organized religions fought against obscurity by growing future congregates through controlling education. Did churches alone fund those colleges? Or did one or a handful of benefactors do so? Religion is big business, so it was not the lesser well to do. Which means again that the lesser well to do were not represented.
Approval is not - should not - be a dictator.
Given 1789, why does controversy persist?
"religion of the founders of the republic" is a lie on its face. Doesn't matter who said it because saying so does not make it so.
Again, saying so doesn't make it so. Continuing to try to impose a religion on those a religion does not serve, will continue to be a wasted effort.
39 - thirty nine not 200 - founding fathers intended that all people be represented by the governance they formed. Over time more people contributed, however it's a long stretch to call them founding fathers of this country.
Then again, as Benjamin Franklin responded to a question about whether or not we have a monarchy or republic, "a republic if we can keep it."
So, it seems to me, while organized religions continue to vie for control, whatever we did end up with has changed considerably and become a wicked problem. At the root of that is organized religious influence on government via lobbyists and such. How much more tax dollars would be better spent to clean up our own backyard and support this country's people, if organized religions voluntarily removed their noses from this country's business? That would be the christian thing to do.
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Catherine
@Daniel Gray
Where did you go? No response?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
There are a few participants in these blog discussions who it appears are not here to discuss anything - they just want to spread their propaganda and impose their view. They avoid any actual discussion.
They have three standard replies:
1) Belittle and demean those of differing opinion. I would call them trolls but that doesn't seem to be the entirety of why they do this. It appears they genuinely want to insult those they denigrate.
2) Reaffirm their position, often with additional propaganda. This is essentially just a reworded repost.
3) When the other two answers don't work, or when faced with an undeniable substantive reply, they simply take their first two answers elsewhere, abandoning the adverse discussion. Then the cycle repeats.
When I discuss something, in all honesty I am hoping to learn something. I am a big believer in progress through interaction. Some people, however, are only looking for victory - for validation and imposition of their forgone conclusions. This is what makes any discussion with them useless.
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Daniel Gray
Why? since nothing you have posted is refuting me.
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Catherine
@Daniel Gray
Troll up? I mean scroll up: Sep 28, 2023 at 01:18 pm
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Daniel Gray
Why? nothing you said is correct nor proved as same.
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Catherine
@Timothy Paul. Forrester
Did you go to grade school in South Carolina, too? I heard those same stories!
Ultimately, I think this country was founded primarily to establish ownership of resources, including people. Creepy. Wouldn't God deem that a sin?
Have you ever read "White Cargo", about whites enslaving whites... Sir Walter Raleigh and his brother Humphrey Gilbert... the Crown sent those who couldn't pay taxes, or were sick, to confiscate lands the Crown desired.
And to make room in prisons for more useful criminals that could be ransomed or blackmailed.
America was 'founded' accidentally by failed efforts of England due to its overextended reach. Somewhat like the Romans, though that's a different conversation.
Over time and after a lot of reading, I stopped believing coming to America for religious freedom was the whole story.
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Maximillian Martin
GOOD!!! It's about time that stuff gets taken out of public schools!!! IT HAS NO BUSINESS BEING THERE!!! If you want YOUR kids subjected to those delusional things, send them to private schools!!!!
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Daniel Gray
SCOTUS said in the newdow cases that it CAN be in the public schools. Sorry but the highest court in the land says you are completely wrong
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Dream on DG.
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Daniel Gray
No Dream Kenny, but FACT
https://www.oyez.org/cases/2003/02-1624 Where Newdow was slapped down about having God in the Pledge of Allegiance. meaning Kenny he lost.
So he tried to sue the US Congress to get this changed, https://casetext.com/case/newdow-v-us-congress-2 and he lost AGAIN.
So he tried yet again to sue to keep prayer out of schools...https://www.uscourts.gov/educational-resources/educational-activities/first-amendment-and-religion and he lost yet AGAIN in which time the courts told him to his face (something that you seem not to have knowledge of) "The Free Exercise Clause protects citizens' right to practice their religion as they please, so long as the practice does not run afoul of a "public morals" or a "compelling" governmental interest." So you have to show that having a religious class or saying in a school actually does this, and you cant.
And he tried one more time to sue and get "in God We Trust" removed from our money...and he LOST AGAIN and this time in a 9-0 decision the Supreme Court roasted him for wasting their time on such nonsense https://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2010/03/11/06-16344.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/search.aspx?filename=/docketfiles/02-1624.htm
Do you ever get tired of being proved wrong?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Do you ever get tired of mouthing your conservative religious magic spells?
https://churchandstate.org.uk/2015/02/ten-religious-right-myths-about-church-state-separation-and-why-they-are-wrong/
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Brien
Then it goes against that ammendment which you quote so many times. In teaching that one belief in public school you are creating a national religion.
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Daniel Gray
No Brian they are doing no such thing. Now IF they were to mention a specific God or Deity, then yes. But look at the picture Brian, it does not do this so according to the Supreme Court this means no more then saying to someone who just sneezed "bless you".
Do try and keep your opinions out of this as you are wrong and the highest court in the land says you are wrong.
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Brien
No Danny boy, it is you that is wrong. The quotes used are from the Christian religion, and the images evoke an indoctrination into such belief, thereby creating a perceived national religion. As far as what you think of my statements, I truly don't care what ignorance thinks about anything, I just point it out as ignorant. Your type of abuse is dwindling away, but not soon enough. Peace ☮️
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Brien
Passages such as John 3:16 and Daniel 3:18 were reportedly being prominently featured in some classrooms. That is what the article says. Now, dan, you can read. That is a Christian/ catholic teaching, from the book of fiction. That is vaulting one belief above others which can be seen as an attempt to create nationalized religion by indoctrinating school children. Doesn't your favorite amendment go against such a thing?
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Daniel Gray
And yet neither one of them brian mention any specific God or Deity meaning that it is equal to taking a passage out of a book and placing it on the wall.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
There's more than one God in the bible?
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Daniel Gray
Ever hear of the trinity Kenny?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
You mean the Christian trinity?
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Daniel Gray
Oh and one more thing Brian...Daniel 3:18 does not mention a specific Deity so your claim is a fake attack/claim. here is what Daniel 3:18 actually says:
"But if not, be it known to you, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up."
SO please show where this supposedly mentions a Christian God, or any God for that matter.
And as for John 3:16 again it does not mention any specific deity:
" For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Do you know how many religions in this world and world history have the same belief that a specific deity sent one of their offspring to earth? Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Christianity and New Age and this is just a small sampling.
So again no matter what you or the FFR group (who has been slapped down 99% of the time by court challenges to them and their dictates) believe this can be construed legally as a verse taken out of a book. And whats worse for you is if they add a few more quotes from different religions without mentioning a specific Deity, then its perfectly legal and constitutional under the Newdow cases I posted links to already. Now if you have a problem with it then take it up with the Supreme Court but I would bet that you are not going to get very far.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Do you realize that almost all religions have similar teachings. Maybe not as clarified as Judeo/Christianity nut similar.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Careful KASE - you may open your eyes and become enlightened.
Then where would you be.
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Nicholas J Page
Why cant people read and understand the teaching from the good book.If this was used in my days i would have read them and if i didnt understand i would have asked to help me see better
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Lionheart
Which good book are you referring to, Sir Nicholas? Are you thinking of that bible one that advocates slavery, and stoning people to death, and the killing of children, and the drowning genocide, by that deity it mentions in there?
There are actually much better books of fiction for children to read.
🦁♥️
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Lionheart. The Bible is a book.of many books. It doesn't advocate slavery. It was the times it was written. Tiles changes. Histiry changes. You have a poor understanding, as most people do in here of what history is. Jedus never condemne capitol.punishment. he accepted his unjust trial. Because his purpose was something much higher. Paul never condemned slavery but never accepted it either. Instead he taught that the owner should treat his slaves with respect & dignity and as part of the family. With that kind of teaching brought forth the future abolishment of slavery. But, slavery of exploited children still exists with little.boys being the hottest commodity. Slavery and poverty will always exist because of sin. I will never understand what the hell uou have against the Bible, Koran, Egyptian Booknofvthe Dead, etc. What the hell is your psychological bigotry you have against such a sacred text. Why.not just respect people's religious beliefs. Instead of tearing them down. You're really a sick individual who knows nothing about life. Must have had a rough childhood. Were you a bully or were you bullied. Had to to be something.
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Lionheart
Thank you for your poorly worded, and poorly spelled, reply, Sir Keith. The god you follow not only condoned slavery, he also listed how they could be beaten, as long as they don't die within the first two days. (Exodus 21:20).
I notice in your reply you didn't mention a rebuttal on your god condoning stoning people to death, the killing of the first born children, and his genocidal drowning. Perhaps that's because it's okay with you.
As for your comment:
"Tiles changes. Histiry changes...... Jedus never condemne capitol.punishment."
I'm not sure what "Tiles" you are referring to, and I don't know who "Jedus" is, and when you said "Histiry" did you mean History?
Anyway, as for your suggesting I am a bigot against what you like to call "sacred texts" the reality is, they are worthless writings from many people that didn't know where the sun went at night. Your god is a genocidal, infanticidal maniac, but please continue to worship it if that is what you need. Fortunately, there is no demonstrable evidence it's real.
🦁♥️
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Catherine
@Lionheart
Your comment motivated me to look up, 'what did Jesus mean before Jesus was born'.
If you don't already know, I found this:
https://www.pbs.org/video/what-was-jesus-real-name-pfsrdr/
Thank Jedus! I learned something interesting ^ . ^
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Lionheart
I learned something too, Lady Catherine. Thank you 🤗
🦁♥️
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Times change. History changes. First, you can't judge history by today's standards. As you strive to make the world better there are times one needs to compromise. Sorry to say Lying heart you are the one that lives in a bubble. As long as evil exists one has to constantly fight to make things right. Your little quibble over slavery is a joke. Slavery still exists and no God does not permit slavery because he caused it. Man is responsible for enslaving others. It may just so happen we may have to do it again with all the illegals. One way to solve the problem. Kids are being trafficked so let's enslave the adults. They were dumb enough to come here to flood our borders. You come here illegally you pay the price.
Capitol punishment has always existed and always will. You liberals always cry over spilled milk. Your arguments hold no water or any logical substance judging by today's morals. In many ways our morals today are worse then at the time of our founding as a country. So go cry me a river. You're simply a stupid progressive that can't see that times will never change until Jesus Christ comes back. The evils of the world exist because of sin andvonevthingvI wouldn't do is bad mouth the Lord of History. It will come back at you. But, guess what I'm not going to waste my time praying for you either. Frankly Scarlett, I don't give a d*mn.-
Lionheart
Thank you for your reply, Sir Keith. As a "Legal Immigrant" doing it the correct way, which took me two years to do it legally, you and I share the same governmental philosophy. We only differ in the deity that you like to believe is real, and that's okay. I'm totally okay if that's what you want to believe. The main difference is I believe in one less god than you. All the other worlds gods are mythical....right? 🤗
🦁♥️
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
By the way, I miss spell at times when I respond to your stupid posts, etc. Because I know it drives you crazy.
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Lionheart
I am more than pleased that you read my posts, Sir Keith. We all make mistakes. 🤗
🦁♥️
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Lionheart. I can't make mistakes . I'm perfect. Perfect enough to admit I make mistakes. 😆 🤣 😂 😹 😆 🤣 😂 😹 😆 🤣 😂 😹 😆 🤣 😂
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Catherine
@Keith Allen Steele Eash
Please pardon my butting in. Your comments to @Lionheart target something unspoken.
If anyone else said what men say God said, wouldn't most of us think that individual was a raving lunatic?
When I was very young, I believed 100% in the kind, forgiving, loving, understanding God. The vengeful, angry, petty, hate mongering god is a whole other ball of wax.
That god made me think it might not be what everyone says. I decided the mean god was not the same entity as the kind God.
Eventually I decided men who wrote about what God said, were speaking and acting in His name while behaving badly.
I decided an all powerful God - abiding by rules He created - would not stoop to the worst of human nature. He had no need, right?
I may never get any of that correct. However, in nature where no critter is inherently malicious or mean, there I find the peace felt when thinking of the pleasant, kind, and loving God my childish imagination conjured.
Bad things happening all around then. Especially my father being called a 'baby killer' by church members because they didn't know he was a cook and a mechanic during Korea and and most of his Vietnam tours... funny not funny, yeah?
I needed to think there was a kind God somewhere. Sure wasn't feeling Him in church or much of anywhere then.
If your best friend said any of what the angry god said in the bible, what would you think of that friend?
Your eyes have already glazed over, so I'll call it done for now.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
You've nailed the open secret of Christianity Catherine - that what validates their "Holy Bible" in their mind is that 'Its real old'.
Yes, it's true - all raving lunacy is forgiven as long as people repeat it enough - even accepted - even worshipped! It's really old, you see, and everybody else is saying it, so it must be true!
And then they wonder why sane people take issue with it.
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Tom Thackrey
Since our government is supposed to be separate from our church and these schools are part of the government, I don't think religious messaging is appropriate in schools. I have to ask What is the purpose of these messages? Are they to irritate our non-Christian citizens? Are they an attempt to indoctrinate children?
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Rev. Ken Shostad
The separation from church and state is and was to stop the government from going into the church and dictating what they could and couldn't share... It had nothing to do with pray in the government or public schools, this BS [Bad Stuff] is prompoted by them, they, those [Globalists] who want to control everyone everywhere...
GOD Bless ALL of the Patriots of the World, LORD please put a hedge of Protection around us ALL... AMEN...
PS We The People of the World are in WWIII now and have been for a very long time...
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
Ahhhh “We the People!” Thank you for accepting all people! Those of religions that differ from yours, those with skin color different from yours, those who are part of the LGBTQIA2S+ community, the poor, the sick, the homeless. Now that’s how It ought to be!
As far as you “hedge” goes I’d put it around the pedophile priests, and others who sexually abuse children and adults.
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Catherine
@Daniel Gray (for interested others really)
https://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danbury.html
"Thomas Jefferson's reply on Jan. 1, 1802, to an address from the Danbury (Conn.) Baptist Association... contains a phrase that is as familiar in today's political and judicial circles as the lyrics of a hit tune: "a wall of separation between church and state." This phrase has become well known because it is considered to explain (many would say, distort) the "religion clause" of the First Amendment to the Constitution: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion ..."
"The Supreme Court turned the spotlight on the "wall of separation" phrase in 1878 by declaring in Reynolds v. United States "that it may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the [first] amendment.""
"The high court took the same position in widely publicized decisions in 1947 and 1948, asserting in the latter case, McCollum v. Board of Education, that, "in the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect 'a wall of separation between church and state.'" Since McCollum forbade religious instruction in public schools, it appeared that the court had used Jefferson's "wall" metaphor as a sword to sever religion from public life, a result that was and still is intolerable to many Americans."
The entire article warrants attention.
For decades I've watched organized religions treat the Constitution like a street game with calculated attempts to foul plays by incorporating religious tenets into law for everyone to abide by.
For that reason, controversy about separation of church and state keeps cropping up when it is organized religions which should recognize where the line is drawn and stop trying to cross it.
Organized religions have in deed managed lobbyists to blur lines, inching their way toward breaking down that wall of separation. Their noticeable efforts to do so makes more clear what they are really about: power and control over people to... what have organized religions been doing to their congregations for centuries? That's another discussion.
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Daniel Gray
And the SCOTUS MUST go by what the constitution says as nowhere in article 3 of same (powers of the judiciary) does it give them the right to interpret anything. As such what I said about this myth of church and state is fact and there is no way for anyone to contradict it UNLESS it is clearly spelled out in the constitution
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Michael Hunt
Except legal precedent contradicts your claims repeatedly as shown by Catherine. Just because you, Daniel, believe something to be true, doesn't mean that it actually is.
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Daniel Gray
No sorry legal precedent does not overturn the Constitution and only a person who does not understand that would make the statement. The Constitution is the SUPREME law of the land period end of story.
Therefor they cannot interpret anything as the Constitution does not give them that authority that is expressly stated in the Constitutions 10th Amendment "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. (Tenth Amendments)" So show us where exactly in Article 3 does it say that the SCOTUS or any other court has the authority to interpret anything. I wont hold my breath waiting.
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Catherine
@Daniel Gray
So much self-contradiction in place.
How do you manage to get through a day?
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Daniel Gray
So much fact from me, its no wonder you try and fail to disprove what I said. Precedent does NOT overturn what is said in the constitution and only a fool would make that claim. And I see that you have not replied WHERE in article 3 does it say that SCOTUS or any court has the right to interpret anything. So lets give you another chance, cite the specific section and location in Article 3 where the Constitution gives ANY court the right to interpret anything.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
DG - thank you for your assumed role of everybody's favorite gadfly and political partisan faction.
"The complex role of the Supreme Court in this system derives from its authority to invalidate legislation or executive actions which, in the Court’s considered judgment, conflict with the Constitution. This power of "judicial review" has given the Court a crucial responsibility in assuring individual rights, as well as in maintaining a "living Constitution" whose broad provisions are continually applied to complicated new situations.
While the function of judicial review is not explicitly provided in the Constitution, it had been anticipated before the adoption of that document. Prior to 1789, state courts had already overturned legislative acts which conflicted with state constitutions. Moreover, many of the Founding Fathers expected the Supreme Court to assume this role in regard to the Constitution; Alexander Hamilton and James Madison, for example, had underlined the importance of judicial review in the Federalist Papers, which urged adoption of the Constitution.
Hamilton had written that through the practice of judicial review the Court ensured that the will of the whole people, as expressed in their Constitution, would be supreme over the will of a legislature, whose statutes might express only the temporary will of part of the people. And Madison had written that constitutional interpretation must be left to the reasoned judgment of independent judges, rather than to the tumult and conflict of the political process. If every constitutional question were to be decided by public political bargaining, Madison argued, the Constitution would be reduced to a battleground of competing factions, political passion and partisan spirit.
Despite this background the Court’s power of judicial review was not confirmed until 1803, when it was invoked by Chief Justice John Marshall in Marbury v. Madison. In this decision, the Chief Justice asserted that the Supreme Court's responsibility to overturn unconstitutional legislation was a necessary consequence of its sworn duty to uphold the Constitution. That oath could not be fulfilled any other way. "It is emphatically the province of the judicial department to say what the law is," he declared."
From: https://www.supremecourt.gov/about/constitutional.aspx
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Catherine
@Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Nice..
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Daniel Gray
the only gadfly is to people like you who refuse to read with their eyes and use common sense to know that what they are claiming isnt fact nor law.
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Daniel Gray
The court cannot just grant themselves any authority Kenny as that violates the 10th Amendment.
"https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-10/"
So your claim is utter balderdash and not true under law or constitution
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Catherine
@Daniel Gray
You realize these responses are less for you than other readers, yes?
I should return to ignoring trolls.
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Daniel Gray
You cant ignore the trolls as that would be ignoring yourself since you have been proved wrong as many times as Kenny
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
DG - you do realize other people can read? You do realize other people can think?
You keep saying you prove everybody wrong, but what's missing is the proof. You claim America is not a democracy, then you vote. You claim the courts can't determine constitutionality of the law, but then you are bound by that law.
Perhaps you could explain why you persist in making claim after claim that are blatantly in-your-face not true? It should be no problem for you to prove that you aren't just trolling.
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Daniel Gray
You had better hope they cant read as if they did then nothing you say here would ever be accepted as anything but a massive fairy tale.
So I will ask you the exact same thing I asked Catherine Colvin and she has so far refused to reply. Show us exactly WHERE in Article 3 of the Constitution that it says the courts can interpret anything. Since you are implying that its there, I want chapter and verse. I will never get a reply from you just like Catherine didnt reply as its NOT there...and never was. And to destroy your myth and bury it, try reading the 10th Amendment "Amendment Ten to the Constitution was ratified on December 15, 1791. It makes clear that any powers that are not specifically given to the federal government, nor withheld from the states, are reserved to those respective states, or to the people at large. meaning that ANY decision that the courts have found that includes a new "right" or any decision they have made that was reached by "interpretation" is a violation of the 10th Amendment to the Constitution and is completely illegal/unconstitutional and unenforceable.
Amendment Ten to the Constitution was ratified on December 15, 1791. It makes clear that any powers that are not specifically given to the federal government, nor withheld from the states, are reserved to those respective states, or to the people at large.
Now lets see you and Catherine try and refute that, although I will enjoy watching the hoops you two try and jump through or the fantasies you try to invoke to do so out of desperation knowing that you cant.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
What in the world are you going on about DG?
You've been answered. You apparently didn't like the answer, but that's too bad. If you disagree with it, you can always tell the SCOTUS and see what that gets you.
https://www.themonastery.org/blog/oklahoma-school-removes-bible-quotes-from-classrooms#comment-332882
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Daniel Gray
There is no such thing as Separation of Church and state. It is not listed anywhere in the Constitution as all the 1st Amendment says about this is that there cannot be a national religion, nothing more. And since the constitution was ratified in 1787 and the first mention of this myth was in a letter in 1802, a good 15 years after the constitution was made law of the land and as such would require a constitutional amendment to be placed there in the constitution and that has never happened.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Here - argue with reality.
https://churchandstate.org.uk/2015/02/ten-religious-right-myths-about-church-state-separation-and-why-they-are-wrong/
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Colleen McAllister
Might I point out that the article which you posted is from the UK which is hardly an authority on the US government. We did leave them, you know.
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Amber Fry
Depends on what their educational leanings were. People from other countries study our government all the time. Some know it better than those raised here because our schools keep taking out vital civics lessons.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
So you don't have an actual criticism - other than it is of foreign origination?
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Daniel Gray
Sadly Amber Kenny is not one of these
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
And your specific argument against it is...?
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Daniel Gray
here kenny is what the 1st Amendment states
Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Now please show us WHERE exactly this myth of Separation of church and state actually is in this? All it says is that Congress cannot make a national religion like they have in England. Nothing more.
SO how do you like having your opinion being destroyed yet again with fact and law?
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ServantOfJudgement
Pride month appears to have all the trappings of a religious event. There are many days of the year devoted to LGBTQIA++map followers. The rainbow appears to be their holy symbol robbed from God's word, Satan's good at that. Anyone unaware of the movement would likely interpret it as I have upon witnessing an event. It's believers become enraged when you don't believe as they do. It's got the fingerprints of religion all over it.
The government appears to be promoting the LGBTQIA++map religion. They display the holy symbol on the Whitehouse, around Washington DC and in all the right places. The religious movement demands indoctrination of the children and local municipalities. Businesses are indoctrinating their employees with LGBTQIA++map propaganda. I've got 68 genders to get aquatinted with. Not sure why not 69, seems to be the perfect number of genders for a sex based religion. Never did find mine in the 68 though, maybe I'm #69. How cool would that be? I know my wife would dig it all night long.
If a Bible verse is to be removed from schools, libraries, municipalities and all other branches of the government, then so must the LGBTQIA++map religion.
If the push for the so called "separation of church and state" persists as a weapon against Christianity, then Christianity must demand equal treatment, that is to say, display zero religious artifacts namely the lgbt2qia++map holy symbols and indoctrination literature including their preachers in the classroom. It all must go.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Oh SOJ - so disappointing.
I thought you were leaving - but just like Jack in Brokeback Mountain, it seems like you just can't quit us.
The LGBTQ+ movement is a lot like a religion - except it isn't. You see, religion is "religion", and the LGBTQ+ are reality. Unlike religion, they actually exist. They are real, which is why the comparison to a religion is ludicrous in the extreme.
Please start respecting science - instead of Fox News.
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ServantOfJudgement
Kenneth,
I don't believe what you believe. You don't believe what I believe. I don't demand you believe what I believe. You demand I believe what you believe.
You believe I watch Fox news. I know I don't watch Fox news. I believe you watch Fox news. You know you watch Fox news.
I'm not sure who said this profound statement, perhaps somewhere in the bible, maybe somewhere else but it's very true.
That which you gaze upon you shall become.
Stay away from FOX news, MSNBC, CNN, All morning talk shows and news programs on CBS, NBC and ABC. Just some friendly advice, it'll rot your brain and get you talking like a parrot. I'd much more prefer speaking with the real Kenneth.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
"I don't demand you believe what I believe."
You vote, and you vote according to your religious beliefs.
This is the same thing the Taliban does with Sharia law - it forces everyone to live their religion whether they are part of it or not.
And as much as conservatives are constantly crying about being the victims, NO legalizing same-sex marriage has absolutely no effect on you whatsoever. The existence of trans people has no effect on you whatsoever. Admittedly DEI initiatives level the playing field, so I understand why you hate that.
You absolutely DO demand everyone believe what you believe. It's denial to say otherwise.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
You do have the hardest time with links.
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Daniel Gray
No Kenny it seems that you are the one with the hardest time for links as you usually refuse to go to them and then claim they dont work because they complete destroy your argument
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Ah yes, your links.
Like the one you posted as "proof" of your point which turned out to be a 'letter to the editor'. That's my favorite one - through they are overwhelmingly the same kind of either biased nonsense ort cherry-picked truth spun into exactly what it isn't.
Honestly DG, your constant delusion and self-congratulatory fantasy grows tiresome. The truth is you don't bring anything to the table that is illuminating or transformative. You just bring the same tired propaganda and insults, time after time.
You're the only one at war here. The resto f the world is growing up and moving on. Perhaps that's what you find so frightening.
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Daniel Gray
You mean like the ones you post which show ONE persons opinion like the one you did for global warming. Or the one you posted that tried to show that the cake maker shoud be forced to violate her 1st Amendment rights and was written by the opinion editor of the site? You really should not be trying to blame me or accuse me of items that you do on a daily basis.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
The one I usually post is from NASA, which is hardly one person, and which is a government website, which is hardly one person, and a link on that page directs to a list of international organizations, which is hardly one person.
I could go on, but it's apparent you will just ignore that too and lie about it too.
https://climate.nasa.gov/scientific_consensus/
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Daniel Gray
And the ones I posted were from NASA and the and NOAA and quite a few others. Sorry kenny but your illogical post isnt going to work with the smoke screen you are trying to set up
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Your links were obsolete and debunked.
No matter how hard you hope and pray and wish intimidate your view is plainly and simply wrong.
That's why you continually resort to insults and disparagement - because you know you are wrong.
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Daniel Gray
No sorry kenny my links are factual and have not been debunked. Unlike you who has tried to use a 7 to 10 year old claim that has been disproved or in this thread alone tried to use a claim from someone in another country telling us how our constitution works even after you were given links and valid proof that you were wrong.
And now here you are complaining. I find it very funny that you refuse to go to the links and then complain that they dont work all because they destroy your claims and you just cant stand it
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Yammer on DG - as we all sit by witnessing the deforestation of North America, and the growth of uninhabitable zones across the world.
You'll be one of those people denying human caused climate change until standing on your tip toes, your chin barely above water - and even after, if you could.
Do you have children DG? Grandchildren? I can only imagine what they might think in the coming decades, remembering how you looked them in the eyes and bragged about doing everything you could to impede doing anything about it.
Here - brag about how you have 'debunked' this again: https://climate.nasa.gov/scientific_consensus/
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Daniel Gray
No yammering on anything, it seems YOU are the one doing the yammering. Or are you going to try and claim that NASA is wrong when they have shown that ALL the planets in the system are heating up and mankind is only on one https://www.livescience.com/1349-sun-blamed-warming-earth-worlds.html https://www.epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/press-releases-all?ID=469DD8F9-802A-23AD-4459-CC5C23C24651
https://news.mit.edu/2002/pluto
https://www.climate.gov/news-features/climate-qa/hasnt-earth-warmed-and-cooled-naturally-throughout-history
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/greenhouse-gases-lurk-in-oceans-could-make-warming-far-worse
As you can see you are not correct in any way shape or form, and yet you still come back here over and over and over again whining and crying.
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Daniel Gray
The only one who is yammering on here Kenny is you. There are far more trees now then there were over 100 years ago so your claim of deforesting the US is yet again another lie
https://www.wri.org/insights/tracking-global-tree-cover-gain
https://8billiontrees.com/trees/how-many-trees-are-in-the-united-states/
According to the Global Forest Watch, the US has GAINED 46.5 Mha of tree cover from just 2000 to present.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/09/02/scientists-discover-that-the-world-contains-dramatically-more-trees-than-previously-thought/
Now since you were so clearly wrong about the tree cover, why should anyone with any sense believe the rest of your claims?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
First link: https://www.livescience.com/1349-sun-blamed-warming-earth-worlds.html "While evidence suggests fluctuations in solar activity can affect climate on Earth, and that it has done so in the past, the majority of climate scientists and astrophysicists agree that the sun is not to blame for the current and historically sudden uptick in global temperatures on Earth, which seems to be mostly a mess created by our own species"
Second link: https://www.epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/press-releases-all?ID=469DD8F9-802A-23AD-4459-CC5C23C24651 This is a repost of an article from the National Post, a known right-wing propaganda outlet. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/national-post/
Third link: https://news.mit.edu/2002/pluto "David Tholen, an astronomer at the University of Hawaii who measured the size of Pluto in the late 1980s using a series of occultations and eclipses involving Pluto's satellite, noted that even though Pluto was closest to the sun in 1989, a warming trend 13 years later shouldn't be unexpected. "It takes time for materials to warm up and cool off, which is why the hottest part of the day on Earth is usually around 2 or 3 p.m. rather than local noon, when sunlight is the most intense," Tholen said. Because Pluto's year is equal to about 250 Earth years, 13 years after Pluto's closest approach to the Sun is like 1:15 p.m. on Earth. "This warming trend on Pluto could easily last for another 13 years," Tholen estimated."
Fourth link: https://www.climate.gov/news-features/climate-qa/hasnt-earth-warmed-and-cooled-naturally-throughout-history "It was partly through their attempts to understand what caused and ended previous ice ages that climate scientists came to understand the dominant role that carbon dioxide plays in Earth’s climate system, and the primary role that human-produced carbon dioxide is playing in current global warming."
Fifth link: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/greenhouse-gases-lurk-in-oceans-could-make-warming-far-worse This is a subscription page that I do not have access to, however the title makes it clear that it refers to a recent study by University of Texas that further points to carbon as a major human produced greenhouse gas, and the ocean's role in regulating it. "The discovery comes from a study led by The University of Texas at Austin in which researchers analyzed a climate simulation configured to a worst-case emissions scenario and found that the oceans' ability to soak up carbon dioxide (CO2) would peak by 2100, becoming only half as efficient at absorbing the greenhouse gas by 2300."
Sixth link: https://www.wri.org/insights/tracking-global-tree-cover-gain "We know that deforestation is an ongoing, devastating problem — satellite data has been tracking it closely for years"
Seventh link: https://8billiontrees.com/trees/how-many-trees-are-in-the-united-states/ 8billiontrees is a fairly new movement that seems to do good work, with legitimate appearing documentation that they do work with international governments and plant a lot of trees. What is unverifiable is how many trees they actually conserve, or how many of their plantings reach maturity. https://medium.com/@timgoreman/8-billion-trees-review-legit-or-scam-70c2332e352a
Eighth link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/09/02/scientists-discover-that-the-world-contains-dramatically-more-trees-than-previously-thought/ The Washington Post is another subscription site that I do not have access to - but the headline clearly states that previous tree estimates have simply been revised. This says nothing about tree loss, or it's rol3e in human caused climate change. Like a lot of these links, it's hard to think of a reason you think it supports your position.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
May I correctvuou. Schools do not bong to the government. They belong to the parents who send their kids to those schools. They elect a school board to act on what parents deem to.be important in teaching. When peanut brain Carter started the Department of Education was when schools went down hill. The best schools before John Dewey came along was the old country schools. When Dewey started pushing his idea of education it evolved into Peanut Brain Jimmy Carter's idea to take command of the schools. Biggest mistake ever made. Education went down hill quickly with the government telling schools what to teach, etc. Get the government out of our schools and let the parents have control.likebit was meant to be.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
This is America KASE. We are the government - we elect our representatives who stand for our issues, and they govern accordingly or are voted out. And we pay our taxes which pays for the schools.
Therefore, schools must support the people - ALL the people, favoring none - and the people are largely parents. You can blame whoever you want and pine for the days of arbitrary standards and corporal punishment all you want - it bears no resemblance to reality.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Once again the qchools belong to the people. Not the government. The parents approve of the education. Not the damn government.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
This is America. We are the government.
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Colleen McAllister
I am a Christian, Baptist in practice. I am evangelistic. These Bible quotes do not belong on school walls unless they are part of a larger exhibition of religious or philosophical sayings. Religion needs to be taught at home.
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Timothy C Stone
I strongly believe in the separation of church and state. Religion should be taught in the home and church of choice. Or, send your child to a parochial school. As far as I believe the example above is referring to human sacrifice.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Wrong. Theology is a liberal art. Therefore it should be on all class curriculum as a choice.
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
Sadly, to teach about all existing religions of our country alone would take up far too much time. The “good news” is you are allowed to home school your children or send them to a religious school!
No need for you to indoctrinate my children. They have come to their own conclusions.
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Colleen McAllister
Only if the theology taught is of various religions. And only is the quotes listed are from various religions.
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Catherine
@Keith Allen Steele Eash
I think comparative religions should be taught in school.
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Catherine
@Amber Fry
I think teachers who cannot apply ethics and objectivity should not be teaching in public schools.
I think there are parents and teachers who prefer maintaining personal prejudices and passing those on to as many children as possible. Clearly prejudiced educators are an abuse that warrant culling from all schools, because public schools are not for teaching prejudices, yes?
Introducing comparative religions around 5th grade or so could minimize violence and ignorance.
I think our nation needs to grow up.
Why is the word 'elementary' - being a literal reference to rudimentary or basic principles - used to denote early education if basics of modern life and current events are not introduced? How does waiting until college to learn about other cultures help anyone?
Having been stationed overseas for military duty, I can say anyone who has not left the United States to personally witness differences between cultures has been robbed of life changing experiences. Comparative religions taught in public schools could introduce a factor of worldliness that so many could benefit from.
For what reason should basic principles of various religions be omitted from elementary education and high school education?
Learning Latin was common until last century and much of the English language includes Latin, which still persists in medical and botanical terminologies. Various reasons have been provided as to why that ended. However, one seldom mentioned is that learning Latin would allow interested individuals to learn real history. Religious leaders who still use Latin could recount a grocery list rather than speaking their God's word. Who would know the difference?
Similar to removal of cursive writing from schools. Our Constitution and similar doctrines are written in cursive writing. How many high school students (now) are able to read those original writings that govern our existence?
Times change and most everything else will change. Or break. The Gaelic language of Scotland is nearly lost, as is happening more often around the world in other countries.
Removing languages and religious practices reduces differences between peoples, doesn't it? So maybe that isn't all bad except to those of us who are connected to the past through a language or cultural practices.
However, I say people are naturally, inherently individuals. And cultural practices are part of our identity and uniqueness. Are we all supposed to give up individuality in exchange for... what?
In another generation next-to-no one will remain who will be able to read historical writings. In another 10-20 years, someone of my age might be considered an epigrapher for cursive writing. Ha.
More poignantly though, is that the core of education is being given a full body makeover. Soon there will be no reason to learn history because so much will be unreadable. A huge part of history includes the roles of organized religions.
Maybe that becomes unimportant as the future unfolds.
What I am sure of, is if we are not to repeat the worst of history, we should each be part of that effort and that begins with learning history.
Without comparative religions being taught, in time all religions will be lost, same as languages disappearing. I cannot help ponder which language we will all be speaking in 50 years or so.
On the other hand, that may be a good path for posterity. Being that organized religions fuel wars for profit, same as other government entities. At which point, I ponder who will decide what information is omitted going forward? Who will write the history that informs the future?
Almost off topic, the Age of Aquarius as generally thought of in the field of astrology describes the future as a time during which men and women learn to lead and support as equals. The longer it takes to ditch organized religions, the further off that point in time will be.
Still, given only the here and now, I can think of no valid reason for comparative religions not to be taught in public schools.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Males and females are not equal. Women are too emotional and are the worst in politics. The role of women was to.cate for the kids. When women were given the right to vote the world started going to hell. When given the right to speak politically we opened a can on of worms. I.know accuse me of being racist and old fashioned. But, women were given a place and they need to stick to it. I remember working in a iron works factory and I had to help a woman do her job and mine to. And younhad to keep a quota up. Well, I couldn't do it doing a job and a half. So, I can fired. Did the woman get fired. Hell no. Because she had something the foreman wanted and got. So I resented that the rest of my . Economic injustice still and does ecist.
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Catherine
@Keith Allen Steele Eash
You may be conflating racism with misogyny. Or not. May be you're into both?
Much has changed since your prevailing attitude toward women began falling to the wayside long ago.
I think we each tend to be rigid about something or other. Sometimes that's a good thing. Sometimes not so much.
Would you stand still in a fire because it wasn't your idea to start it?
The world does not revolve around any one of us, does it?
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Maria Kendall Ahlsen
I went to a Methodist school for my freshman and sophomore years. One of my electives was World Religions. I absolutely loved that class. It didn't sway my beliefs but did teach me tolerance for others. To this day. I believe others have the right to their beliefs and will defend them vehemently (as long as their religion causes no harm to others).
I went to Haiti as a 15 year old and saw practitioners of VooDoo. I have seen Santeria in the Dominican Republic and some areas of Puerto Rico (where I grew up). I have known Muslims, Buddhists, Sikhs, Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics, and Wiccans. Sadly the only group that was ever "pushy" or tried to state their religion is the only right one are my fellow Christians.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
You ever hear of the Great Commission. Go out to all the world and preach the Good News. There 8s no salvation offered in any other faith. Their's is good works. Ours is faith.
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Amber Fry
Then you open the door to bias teachers bad mouthing the religions that are not their own. It's already happened and part of the reason why many schools won't do it. You would also be contending with time it takes to teach them properly when lucky enough to get a teacher who isn't going to be bias. I'd keep it to college level material.
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Pink Clover
If someone wants to learn about other religions they can do it on their own time or when they go to college. You can teach religion in your home or in a church or classes anywhere else, it doesn't need to be nor should it be in K-12. Especially these days.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
So you are saying an ordination is actually an artistic license?
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Brien
Not in public school. You may teach your beliefs to your family at home. If you try to indoctrinate my children into beliefs that I don't approve of, then we have problems. Who the f are you to force your beliefs onto my family?
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
exist. In the mirror. You're doing the same thi.g John Dewey.
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Jack Gordon Campbell
If someone wants to dally constantly into religion let them go to a "liberal Art" school that teaches all religions. In the U.S.A. those wanting to control are right wing Christians, and their righteousness is often based in old testament cruelty and ignorance. When i was six it was really stuck on the teaching of Lott's wife being turned into a pillar of salt. There was nothing loving in that act by some so called god when i was taught "God is Love". It was old testament fable, i am more interested in the New Testament. The Bible was written by men and was subject to a little writers privilege, my opinion. Public schools should be void of all religious teachings leaving more time to study reality.
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John Komorowski
Comment removed by user.
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Lionheart
For the most part, Lady Colleen, I agree with you. As for religion being taught at home, that just leads to religious indoctrination of the parents beliefs, unless the parents are teaching them about all the forms of religions that the earth has created, from an educational perspective, and then allowing the children to choose their own at a later time if they feel religion is for them.
🦁♥️
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Amber Fry
Unfortunately it would and has turned into religious indoctrination in school by bias teachers as well.
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Tecla Caryl Loup
If we are going to discuss religion in schools,. then comparative religion gets my vote. "All gods are one god, and all goddesses are one goddess..."
I have a serious problem with those who think that we should be indoctrinating kids with Christian-only ideas. Most of those ideas aren't Christian and do not relay Christ's essential message, which is pretty simple. But power corrupts. And so we have clergy who live in mansions and ride in Cadillacs. Must be the modern equivalent of stables and donkeys, eh? Not bloody likely!
I also don't recall Jesus commenting much on culture war issues except to point out the antithetical message that we should love one another and try to help those in need regardless of their beliefs.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Christ 's message was not simple. It is hard to live. The golden rule is not easy. And people misconstrue what love is. Homosexuality is not.love It's a perversion of the natural act. It's anti-pro creation and disgusting. It is all about one's pleasure. Perverse pleasure. So loving one as one's self is not easy. Loving your enemy is not easy when in war you have to kill or be killed. No Christ's message is not easy. And then there's repentance which definitely is not easy. Not when you enjoy sinning. Love is not a word you can throw around easily.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Yes, that's right KASE - God made love a difficult cipher that only people like you can figure out, let alone live. It's so hard and forbidden to all who live a life you disagree with.
FFS.
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John Komorowski
Agree.
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William J Lewis
The problem is "parents," using the word loosely, Want the school to raise their kids. Religious training, Moral values, and respect of others is the responsibility of people that brought them into the world. I feel sometimes people have kids for the same reasons the buy dogs. They are not decorations, they are responsibilities and sources of joy. If you don't like the way they are taught teach them better.
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John Alex Paxson
I definitely agree ... today finding someone with actual parenting skills and responsibility for their children is like searching for bigfoot ... shame.
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Wilberta M. Berry
Absolutely not. I guess people forget that Christ abhorred a public display of religiosity. Remember prayers are to be done in privacy. Also one of the admonishing Christ gave to the priest were wearing the laws around their necks like adornments. It's unfortunate that the very people who obviously have not read the Bible want to put it in the faces of others.
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Pink Clover
"I guess people forget that...."
Therein lies the problem. Christians have forgotten what the bible says, except for the parts they like. A LOT of that going around these days, which is a huge part of why so many of us have not only stopped going to church, but have dumped religion entirely.
In my home we don't need the 10 commandments, we only have 1: Be Nice.
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Daniel Gray
If the teachers can put up Pride crap all over the place then they can put this up as well. I would put it back up and tell Mikey whine-stein and his group to go pound sand. The Supreme Court of the US has already ruled that you CAN have religious classes in school (meet me at the flagpole decision) and you CAN wear religious themed attire while in school. So the school should as I said before, tell WHINE-stein and his group to go pound sand.
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James Riggle-Johnson
But pride stuff is coming down along with pictures of teachers and their same sex spouses. If you want your child to read bible versus then take them to Sunday School, to Church, or read the bible at home. Public school is for reading, writing, math, history (ALL History), American Government. For Gods sake teach our students how the US Government works so they participate in voting and what they are voting for. But keep God/Christ out of the classroom. Not everyone is Christian. Talk about indoctrination.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry but stop having a tantrum. The SCOTUS has already ruled that this is acceptable in the Newdow cases because they are not naming any one God or deity specifically. So like it or not this has already been decided as acceptable and legal
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
The Christian bible and Christianity and the Christian God aren't a specific religion?
Let me guess - you have "Faith" that this isn't specific and is "Legal"?
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Daniel Gray
Ok look at the picture Kenny, WHERE does it indicate that this is specifically for the Christian God? It does not in any way so your question is and was only put up because you were trying to make a point that is known only to you
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Brien
Ummm, hey quote boy, the items in this case come from the Christian Bible. Are you lost again?
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Daniel Gray
Hey brian...they are also listed in the Koran and the the Tipitaka and the Torah, you want to retry your nonsense?
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Brien
No, my statements stand. You are attempting to indoctrinate children and brainwash them with beliefs not their own. You are simply blinded by your one sided brainwashed beliefs. You cannot create a national religion, you cannot indoctrinate someone else's children. Do you not understand this? There are PRIVATE institutions that PARENTS can choose to send their children to. Beliefs/religion is at the discretion of the parents, which may choose to teach or not. That is not your call to make. Peace ☮️
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Daniel Gray
No sorry your statements may stand with you but they do not stand legally nor Constitutionally and the Supreme Court has already shut your argument down I dont know how many times. You have the newdow decisions and the decision where they ruled that religious schools ARE allowed to have tax money. So while your statements are your opinions and nothing more, they are wrong.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
PUp or shut up. STUDY AND LEARN HOW TO READ. Nobody is requiring a staye religion. Only to teach comparative religions. So keep your goats home and teach them what you wish.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
The pictures on this blog are representative only. READ the blog DG.
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Daniel Gray
I HAVE Kenny, seemingly you have not and wont as you know it disproves what you are claiming.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Are you okay DG?
The article LITERALLY NAMES the Christian bible and Christianity and the Christian God - and you say that?
You do realize everybody else can read it too - right?
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Daniel Gray
Are you ok Kenny? the statement does mention them BUT it shows no proof that the Christian God was mentioned and as such without that evidence they have no case. Like it or not.
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
Typical Christian arrogance.
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Daniel Gray
The arrogance is clearly coming from you
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Boom-tish!
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Brien
No Danny, the arrogance and ignorance are coming from you.
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Daniel Gray
Sadly it me proving you wrong on a constant basis
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
Thanks for proving me right so consisely.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
RME - as you can see, DG has completely bought into the ultra-conservative brainwashing that if you just never admit defeat, then you are undefeatable. The concept of reality, rationality and integrity has been completely dissolved in the zealous ultra-conservative lust for power.
There is no rational discussion with such a person - short of simply acquiescing to whatever he demands. That they will accept.
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Daniel Gray
You are welcome for me disproving what you say on a regular basis
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
LOL
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
Spoken like a true christian nationalist.
“Pride crap?” I’m betting you know people who are part of the LGBTQIA2S+ community. Perhaps yourself or members of your family.
Pretty sure your “god” would be pissed off because you use him to hate on others that you don’t consider worthy of his love.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
DG is right Elizabeth - there is nothing in the Constitution making religious hate bigotry and prejudice illegal.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry Liz, but if you can put up one, then you are able to put up another/ Dont really care if you like it or not. If you dont then get the SCOTUS to overturn their newdow decisions, or get 3/4ths of the Congress to overturn the decision as they are allowed to do under Article 3 Section 2. Until then you can sit there and fume as there is nothing you can do to change it
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
https://churchandstate.org.uk/2015/02/ten-religious-right-myths-about-church-state-separation-and-why-they-are-wrong/
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Daniel Gray
Thats in ENGLAND kenny and has nothing to do with the US. So why you would try and quote them is known only to you and is a last gasp at hoping someone believes that tripe.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
That's right DG - don't answer the arguments, just attack me.
Keep talking.
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Daniel Gray
How is telling you that is from england and has no bearing here, somehow is attacking you?
And again since the first mention of your myth was in 1802 a good 15 years AFTER the ratification of the Constitution as the supreme law of the land, it would take a constitutional amendment to change it or to add your myth to it. Now in checking the library of Congress I find that there has been NO such amendment tried nor adopted. Therefor it cant be part of the constitution just by one silly little letter.
Its clear that you have no idea how the constitution is modified or things are added to it. Maybe you should go and find the 70's cartoon called School House Rock and actually educate yourself
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Oy vey.
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Michael Hunt
I guess only the US can study American history. Clearly we've just been destroyed by the world's most intelligent person ever...
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Daniel Gray
So I guess using kennys logic, we should be able to go and tell China or Russia or Peru or Canada how to run their country because we think this is how it should be rune no matter what their founding documents say.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Yeah MH - just ask him.
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Daniel Gray
all he has to do is actually READ the constitution and it will show him and you that it does not say what you wish it would
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Gid . Loves the sinners but he is just as quick to cast them into hell fire if they don't repent. What us love? You have no understanding of what it truly is. God destroys the sinner who chooses never to repent out of love.
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Mark Gilgen
This is just plain WRONG. Just another Anti-Christian group winning the war against us and we are letting them!
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
This "anti-christian" group is standing up for the constituition and the rights of American citizens of other religions or none at all.
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Maximillian Martin
Too bad!!! I bet you're gonna cry persecution now aren't you?? IT HAS NO PLACE IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS!!!! If you want abrahamic religions forced on everyone, MOVE TO THE MIDDLE EAST WHERE THEY CAME FROM!!!! They're ok with it
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Cindy L Edgar
I do not believe religion should be a part of schools of any sort unless your child is going to a private school and they choose to use it because they're Catholic or Christian but that should be left up to the parents after school hours not during school there is a lot of beliefs out there let the kids choose what they want to believe in when they're adults not force them to believe in something they don't believe in
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Rev. Ken Shostad
In the past ALL schools were in the church and they used The Holy Bible to teach from, the kids HAD morals, respected their elders [for the most part] and were tought to love ALL, pray for ALL, including their enemies... They are currently teaching sex to single digit kids, and I don't mean the natural sex to procreate, as The Holy Bible teaches, we should be doing AFTER marrige...
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Catherine
@Rev. Ken Shostad
In which past were all schools in the church?
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
The shools need to show respect for the constitution. Their blatant disregard for the law and the rights of others sets a very bad example to their students.
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Amber Fry
Yes but that was also in a time where the church was only used on sundays, school was not mandatory so far fewer kids were involved and times were hard so materials were tough to come by. We have evolved well past that these days. I'd also question the morals. History, real history, honest history tells quite a different story. Not everyone had morals even after religious teachings and some had different morals based in different religious followings. Those that were well behaved abided by social rules and politeness. That doesn't automatically equate to morals.
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Catherine
@Amber Fry
Please say, where have you found "real history, honest history"?
The victor/conqueror writes and rewrites the history they desire the rest of the world to be familiar with. So relative little can be verified about actual history beyond the last century. And how much since then is not distorted?
The point of the following is that accuracy matters. If not, we're all blowing smoke at each other.
Recently I began researching genealogy. If only very basic research is considered, with people who mark points in history, how often names are misspelled or entirely changed became clear rather quickly. Conflicting dates and names between grave stones and other records exist. As well as descriptions of incidents or circumstances apparently made up (tall tales), taken out of context, or where someone obviously filled in gaps with guesswork. Yet because someone wrote a misinformed, or misinforming, letter or newspaper article or incorrectly notated a gravestone, those can be used as marks of history. Not okay.
Can't even count on following ancestors through paternal or maternal bloodlines. Adoptions and fostering often occurred between relatives or other benefactors and recording that is inconsistent between countries and locales.
For varied periods of time births, marriages, divorces, property dealings, etcetera, were not consistently recorded, or not recorded at all.
And, women and men being human creatures, not every child of a woman necessarily belonged to her husband. And a husband's illegitimate child(ren) might or might not become part of the husband's family sometimes with the same last name and sometimes not.
I've found a fair amount of what is taught in public schools is not 'real history'. You can find free reading about some of that in the online Library of Congress ( loc.gov ). A search for 'Lysander Spooner No Treason' is an interesting beginning, even if it makes your eyes and heart twitch from the burn. 'War Is A Racket' by Darlington Smedley Butler, is another.
Do you refer only to United States history?
Are you sure materials are 100% sufficiently available to all public schools?
Inhumane schooling environments still exist in the United States.
I don't say any of this to antagonize. I think we should all speak our minds, no one being above another in my opinion.
Certain points about your comments are made because accuracy matters.
When we move through life believing what is not a fact, and share that with others, we contribute to massive confusion and ignorance.
That said, even the Library of Congress may be a tool to cherry pick history made available to the public. So far, I've not found conflicts, but no doubt there is room for such to be found. I haven't read all of LOC : . ) Until then, I keep reading what history I cross reference other sources to find what is noted in common.
When you speak of real history, I am wondering what you refer to specifically.
I imagine there are political science educational materials that shine a less opaque light on real history. Even so, what important history has occurred that was never brought to light? That is something most of us will never know.
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Brien
Where are you from? Your statement is not true.
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As a Secular Humanist Pantheist (SHP) who’s also a ULC Bishop (since 1972) and is now an Oklahoma resident, this is what should be done, in this regard, Fact, there’s only one known provable God, and that provable God never had an only son. Ergo, anytime a religious anything, is placed on public property, if it makes reference to a God, it must also contain enough information, that such a God, is akin to nature, and that nature required no one to worship, or pray to it, For example, a sign saying “God hopes you’ll get an electric car” — because it’s clear, that by so doing, it’s the best for nature.