What should happen when a student's religious beliefs conflict with the curriculum being taught? A new bill working its way through the Ohio legislature that would prohibit teachers from docking points for wrong answers so long as the answers are rooted in a student's religious beliefs.
For example, if a student completed a biology homework assignment that argued humans were created by God instead of through evolution, by law the teacher would be required to give them credit.
This portion of the bill has proven highly controversial, and the bill's proponents have now been tasked with defending its motives. They argue that it simply ensures kids can paint a picture of Jesus in art class or write an essay on how they admire Muhammad for a homework assignment without fear of penalty.
So if a student has a religious belief that is counter to the science and history being taught in class, how much leeway does this afford them? Representative Timothy Ginter, the bill's sponsor, claims the student is still on the hook for completing work that accurately reflects what is taught. "This doesn't give students a get-out-of-jail free card," he said.
But ACLU of Ohio Chief Lobbyist Gary Daniels interprets the bill differently. When asked if he thinks a teacher could would be allowed to dock points for incorrect answers based in religion, he said: "Under HB 164, the answer is 'no,' as this legislation clearly states the instructor 'shall not penalize or reward a student based on the religious content of a student's work.'"
Critics also point out that there are already constitutional protections for freedom of speech and religion. If people like Timothy Ginter can be believed that it really is just a feel-good measure critics ask: why even pass it at all? If the bill is purely redundant, why bother? They insist it's just another attempt by religious groups to work God into secular spaces.
Unintended Consequences
There are also concerns about what unintended effects this measure might have. For instance, while the bill is intended to protect religious freedom, it only seems to apply to students. Teachers would still have to set aside their own beliefs when teaching and grading assignments, as the bill offers no protection for teachers that do not want to give credit for incorrect answers. Their freedom to express their own religious beliefs could potentially be in direct conflict with a student, and the students' rights would take precedence.
If a geology student writes about how the Earth is just 10,000 years old because she is a creationist, not only can the student's grade not be lowered despite her answer being counter to the curriculum the teacher couldn't share his own and different religious belief about the age of Earth since this could easily be construed as criticism and therefore a penalty.
He simply has to read that answer, keep quiet, and give her credit. This also begs the question; if teachers must set aside their own beliefs when they enter the school, why can't students just do the same?
You Graduated From Where?
Another possible consequence has to do with outside perception. Certain schools build up reputations among college recruiters and admissions teams. Sometimes it's good, and sometimes not. It's certainly possible that a college with a strong pledge to academic excellence would view an A+ student from Ohio differently than one from another state.
If students are given the freedom to give wrong answers and still get credit, colleges have the freedom to view these students' achievements with a heavy grain of salt. Whether or not a child has taken advantage of the Student Religious Liberties Act wouldn't matter. The admission board may simply see the student is from Ohio and view the A+ as something more like a B-.
This is of course not fair for the students, both religious and non-religious, that strive to learn the material and complete assignments accordingly. If their reputation is affected, the blame would have to be placed at the feet of legislators who see religious expression in the classroom as more important than delivering a quality education.
What do you think about the bill? Should students be allowed to write whatever they want on their homework, so long as they can back it up with the Bible (or Quran, or Torah?)
108 comments
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Lionheart
Yes, in a country of freedom and liberty, students should be able to write what they want without recourse. Educators are there to help students learn "how" to think, not "what" to think. All answers should be evaluated by educators with a view to helping students to understand logic and reason when giving answers.
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Albert Douglas DuBois
The Bible, in 1 Kings, says that the square root of pi is 3. Good luck getting through math with that.
You can be pious without being scientifically and mathematically illiterate.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I agree with Lionheart, and Albert Einstein who said "Education is not the learning of facts, but the training of the mind to think."
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
As a kid, I sometimes skipped school and went to the public library, so I could read what I wanted to. Even though they once sent me to court for truancy, on eighth grade achievement tests I was reading and writing on second year college level, even though the average eighth grader in public school was then reading on third grade level, and I never had higher than a C in English class. I later scored high nationwide for writing books on an aptitude test (if I just had more patience). What we read doesn't matter, but the more we read the better we'll read, and the more we'll know.
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Tom B
Carl...respectfully...in order to truly learn how to think, one must learn how the mind/ego operates...Peace... Tom B
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Daniel Gray
Tom, you also know that the 1st Amendment clearly states that no law can be made that violates a persons religion. So if it is religious or a part of the persons religion then they cannot be docked points for not agreeing with evolution. Just because the instructor may think they are descended from apes does not mean they can punish the ones who believe otherwise. Evolution is not scientific fact, thats why they still call it a theory
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Christine
Gravity is just a theory too, Daniel, but I don't see you flying
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Daniel Gray
I just did a few days ago on a plane coming back from Hawaii.. And please stop with your ignorance, gravity is not a theory, it is a proven scientific fact. If you cant understand that then maybe you should go back to school and leave the blog to the adults.
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Roy C. Wilson
I have lived long enough to have seen our deterioration as a society to a majority that now considers one's opinion as viable as another person's facts. Opinion, based on strong emotion, now passes as "truth". Religious belief, of course, is based on faith which is the ability to believe that which cannot be either proven or disproven.
I have no problem with adults or students who can cite both theory and facts. "Understanding logic and reason" is what's missing today from both general knowledge and the classroom where all to often conformity rather than reason prevails.
To base one's existence on opinion and emotion without self examination and reason is indeed a hollow life stuck in an approved herd mentality.
“headpiece filled with straw” https://youtu.be/Wk5Uk3E-N6I
“I will show you fear in a handful of dust.” https://youtu.be/Hcj4G45F9pw
The Waste Land text: https://www.bartleby.com/201/1.html
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
2e must write those fourth steps and tenth steps, and Albert Ellis' cognitive emotive therapy, as well as Maxie C Maultsby's rational self-analysis might be instrumental in assisting us. Then you might try listening to bi-naural beat frequencies, and read Think And Grow Rich, after listening to The Secret. You're really on the right track. Peace and prosperity. Thank you, Mr. Spock.
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Thomas James Horne
I disagree, educators are there to educate. Giving a student credit for wrong answers is like participation trophies, a lot of phooey. There are correct answers and wrong answers and just because someone believes the bible's teachings does not give them the right to put down wrong answers. God created all, even the evolution as scientists have been trying to prove. It all started with God and will end with God. Our society is going to crap because everyone wants to beleive their own thing and feel like their feelings are hurt because someone told them they were wrong. Get over it!! In biblical times there were constant wars that forged history, what would have happened if there were no wrong answers and everyone got participation trophies. Our history would have been ended by God mellenia ago. Just my opinion, and I dont have to be told I'm right. My feelings won't get hurt. Minister TJH
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Daniel Gray
And Thomas, you have to prove beyond a fact that evolution is correct and so far that has not been done. There for the longest time your so called experts believed that the Piltdown man was fact, until it was proved that it was a stone carving. There for the longest time you had people who absolutely swore that birds were descended from dinos, until it was proved that they were not. In england they swore that a moth was proof of evolution, right up until they found that they were taking two different moths and trying to claim they were the same species. You still have so called "experts" who swear that the big bang theory is established fact. Oh really? care to explain then how everything in the universe was condensed to the size of a pinhead? Or by the scientific rule that says anything that is in motion will stay in motion or anything that is at rest will stay at rest unless acted upon by an outside source. So what caused the mythical big bang? Do I know? Nope and neither does anyone else. You still to this day have so called "experts" swearing that nothing can move faster then light, and yet in Sweden they proved a laser beam can in fact be made to move faster then light as well as the quarks and tachyons that move far faster then light. The point I am trying to make is that the so called "experts" dont know any more about how things work then the rock in your front yard, so what gives them the right to swear you have to follow their way of doing something? If we all had that mindset then we would not have modern medicine or machines or faster then air travel or space craft.
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Jim D.
Put this on the list of really dumb things we do to appease the whiners of the world. Whether a student agrees with evolution or not is irrelevant. Evolution is taught for what it is; a theory. That's why it's called "the theory of evolution." Students are not tested on whether they think it's true. They are tested on their understanding of the theory and its concepts. You don't have to believe it. You just have to know it. Why is this so difficult... not for the kids, but for the adults? Are people really incapable of hearing a theory without having their sense of faith offended? What's next, a book burning party featuring "The Origin of the Species" by Charles Darwin? What a bunch of rubes!
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The Doctor
Keep in mind Evolution is not merely a theory, its simply called that to appease the religious factions that have wealth and influence enough to keep it called that. The ability to decode genomes and accurately identify genetic make up and the various ancestral contributors has very much proven evolution.
To not sound like one of those Rubes you need to keep that in mind. We for example see active evolution in how bacteria evolves against the antibiotics we use to treat illness. a virus does not magically become resistant to the drugs, its gone through often 10s of thousands of generations to evolve that new trait.
Heck we even see it very fast in certain domestic animals going feral. Take the cute little pink pig. Its hair, its tough hide, its tusk many generations bred out of it yet let one pregnant female escape into the wild and you will have full blown boars in a couple generations as their long repressed genetic traits that exist to keep them alive rise back to the surface as an evolutionary adaption to being wild once again.
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Daniel Gray
Keep in mind that evolution is and always will be a theory as nothing about it has been proved scientific fact. If you want to believe you were descended from monkeys, then thats your business.
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Eric Claeyborn
You just remember that, when the Holy Bible gets put back into the public schools... "You don't have to believe it. You just have to know it".
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Robert Philip Ryden
Jim D, you misunderstand the meaning of the word “Theory” in science. “Theory “ is the label that science applies to well-established fact, like the Theory of Gravity or the Theory of Relativity. We don’t debate either of those theories and we shouldn’t be debating the Theory of evolution either.
Politicians who say that evolution is “just a theory”, implying that there is doubt about it, are either just ignorant or they are deliberately misleading people.
Evolution is a fact. All the evidence gathered in the century and a half since Darwin supports it; no evidence whatsoever supports creationism. Citing the Bible is not providing evidence since there is no evidence that the Bible is true.
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Daniel Gray
no phillip, anyone who claims evolution is fact is the one that needs help, I can show you thousands of proofs that evolution is fake. And you cant show me one that its fact.
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Joshua David Rees
Did you reply to this particular query drunk? I am asking as a ulc member. ULC is to my knowledge. A place for us to put forward our takes on religious freedom. A god that looks like colonel sanders? If that’s your belief? Carry on son. But don’t bully others. I would say that if they were bullying you.
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Gary Hynous
We do enjoy freedom of speech and religion under the constitution but this whole issue is ridiculous. Religious beliefs among children are not yet fully formed or understood as they probably follow their parents beliefs. As an adult you form your own religious and spiritual beliefs. Schools would be better off teaching children how to meditate. If you want a religious education go to the appropriate school. Teachers should be free to teach the curriculum and stay away from religious topics unless students are older and attend a class in comparative religion in high school or college.
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DrF350
That's a good point, there are plenty of private Christian schools in Ohio that these fragile parents can send their kids to. In America our goal is to strive toward equal rights for all, not special rights for the religious.
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Eric Claeyborn
In America, the founders were Christians, and they approved of the Holy Bible to be taught in the public schools in the late 1780s. And it was like that for 170 years. Let me know, if there is another religion that says,"Love your neighbor as yourself". The "In God We Trust" on the money is there because of Christianity, not some other religion.
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Carrie
This is NOT a christian nation. Our founders stipulated that over and over...please attempt to read what they wrote before saying this again! As for the quote...it was added on July 30, 1956, in response to Mcarthyism. We are now, and forever have been a secular nation! Have a nice day.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry Carrie, but they did no such thing and in fact stated thousands of times in their records and writings that the US IS a Christian Nation. IN fact even our own Dec of Independence and the US Constitution clearly state "In the year of our Lord" which was a recognized religious greeting.
If you cant or wont seemingly understand that then maybe its time for you to let the adults who have learning state on this blog and people like you just use it to educate yourself.
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Don
"Let me know, if there is another religion that says,”Love your neighbor as yourself"
Many religions said this prior to Jesus being invented. Sorry to burst that bubble. The founders were primarily Deists, not Christians. Would a Christian really say:
“The Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.” 1797 Treaty of Tripoli
“The legislature of the United States shall pass no law on the subject of religion.” Charles Pinckney, Constitutional Convention, 1787
“No religious doctrine shall be established by law.” Elbridge Gerry, Annals of Congress 1:729-731
“And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.” Thomas Jefferson to John Adams
“What is it the New Testament teaches us? To believe that the Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and the belief of this debauchery is called faith.” Thomas Paine
mic drop
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Daniel W. Dewar
Many religions said this prior to Jesus being invented. Sorry to burst that bubble. The founders were primarily Deists, not Christians. Would a Christian really say: --First off, Jesus was not invented, He is an Historical Fact, so to burst your bubble. The Founders were Christian deists and therefore free thinkers as most men. “The Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.” 1797 Treaty of Tripoli --This was put in as an outreach to muslims and to protect American Ships from pirating at the time and we should not over look the overriding purpose of the statement! “The legislature of the United States shall pass no law on the subject of religion.” Charles Pinckney, Constitutional Convention, 1787 --This was geared to "no religious test" shall be required! BTW, Pinckney was also a slave owner, but the PC world considered him to be just a victim of his society, so I guess that makes it alright. “No religious doctrine shall be established by law.” Elbridge Gerry, Annals of Congress 1:729-731 --Again this man chief concern was separation of Church and State! “And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.” Thomas Jefferson to John Adams -- You left out the end where he states.....But we may hope the day will come and the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding! “What is it the New Testament teaches us? To believe that the Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and the belief of this debauchery is called faith.” Thomas Paine --- He was a deist, that's what they believe, BTW, he condemned Christianity in later life and was thought of as an atheist, he was basically outcast and 6 people attended his funeral.
---- Now something for you to look up, research George Washington's "Thanksgiving Proclamation" not going to quote word for word, but he states in there about the duty of nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God!
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Daniel Gray
Sorry to bust YOUR bubble but there were only TWO Deists in the founding fathers, the other 35 of them were very religious and their papers and documents prove same. You really need to stop trying to get your education from comedy central
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DrF350
Eric, if you're trying to cobble together an argument that the founding fathers wanted Christians to have more rights than the rest of Americans, you're going to have to try a bit harder. Carrie here has some good advice, but if you have time this week, you may also want to check out your local library. They should almost certainly have a wealth of resources on early American history, even if it's a small library.
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Kat
I think you're taught something in the classroom whether you believe it or not isn't the point the point is this is what you're being taught in this room so you should answer the questions according to what this teacher is teaching doesn't mean you have to believe it or anything like that it just means did you listen and pay attention it's not the point of school teaching us to listen and pay attention yeah the teacher says okay this test is on what I taught but if you have different beliefs than you can put it on the the test then by all means write what you believe Minister Katherine
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Carrie
I guess it is alright to be stupid and remain stupid, if you just say it is your religious right. Don't learn anything, don't attempt to learn anything, put your mind in bliss with stupid religion! Yes, each of us should learn to think for ourselves but, thanks to religious stupidity, we have anti-vaccers, flat-earthers and other flotsom and jetsom. I guess they would make great cannon fodder...just leave your thinking to god! That sounds a loot like the christian view of sharia law! We follow this logic, this country will no longer lead the world in anything...this country will make the poorest, most illiterate countries look like paradise. These students would never be accepted at any good institution of higher learning, they won't be able to join the military, they couldn't even get a job! Thus is the distruction of a nation. I find it hard to believe that any rational being would, or could support this crap.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Except for reading, writing, and math skills I've never used anything I ever learned in gràdes one through twelve on a job. All other subjects ought to be electives, and comparative religions could be one. I learned a lot aboutCatholism in six years of Cotholic school, which seemed to please my Catholic relatives, but I was initiated into Wicca when I was sixteen, and nothing about being Roman Catholic has helped me since, except in helping me know what I don't want to be.
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Carrie
I have been a Witch for 5 decades. I sometimes blow off steam when I read some of the things that religious nuts push or promote. I truly do think that any religion should stay out of politics. If you can't use your mind, and feel you have to fall back on something mindless, you have no place in government. Each of our representatives serves a population of far more than just one faith. That should be foremost in the minds of those who serve us, don't you think?
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Daniel Gray
Then what in the Lords name are you even doing here as you are doing the same thing you claim you are mad about, you are using your own religion as a basis for your rants.
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Jim D.
"These students would never be accepted at any good institution of higher learning..." Are there any good institutions of higher learning still out there? I'm not so sure.
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Tom B
Respectfully...with the exception of religious schools, education is for the purpose of teaching without the infiltration of religion...and, as Lionheart aptly stated, to teach students to think...if religion is taught, next will be all the other prejudices in the world, such as racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, etc, and you will end up with a parallel to Sharia...Peace...Tom B
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Tom B
Joseph...i would really appreciate your advising as to what words, phrases and concepts I write automatically lead to your "moderation"...thank you...Tom B
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Maybe they always moderate everything witten on this blog anymore. I think they always moderate my comments, but I'm not offended by it. It's good to have advisers who don't give unwanted advice, or criticism. If something doesn't fit in the way they think it should they don't print it. When they do that Ait makes me think about what I wrote, and how and why it might not have been appropriate. The staff of ULC, as well as our fellow ministers, are my teachers. Y'all are teaching me how to better minister to others. And y'all are doing a good job of it. I know that because far more of my comments are getting posted. According to Albert Einstein, "Education is not the learning of facts, but the training of the mind to think."
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Tom B
Carl...respectfully...i would agree with you if the specific reasons for moderating and censorship were told to us...Peace...Tom B
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Kirk
This seems like a “backlash” bill. It’s backlash from schools/educators teaching “settled science” that there are more than two genders. It’s also a backlash from schools that make non-Muslim kids bow down to Allah and the five pillars of Islam.
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Amy
There are a crap load of more IMPORTANT things to be spending time passing laws on. Besides the fact that if you don't learn other points of view you can't really call yourself educated. You have nothing to debate if you don't have more then one reference to work from.
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Mark Hannon
If my children were allowed to answer questions by repeating things from our study of the Bible as opposed to what has been learned in the years since it was compiled in the 400's.
In the 1700 or so years since then we have microscopes, telescopes and gyroscopes. We've left behind alchemy and can now split an atom. The strides in the evolution of our science have been many and are increasing in frequency.
I am shocked when I think of all that has changed in my own lifetime.
Yesterday I read from a CNN poll that 1 in 6 believe that the earth is FLAT because of the number of references to "the four corners of the earth". I hadn't realized it was as prevalent as this but I do know several people that believe this including my own brother and his family. I wouldn't let them watch my pets.
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Eric Claeyborn
They believe the earth is flat, not because the Bible says it, but because they allowed atheists to indoctrinate them with that interpretation. It's a metaphor. I've even heard weather men/women on TV use the same metaphor. There are other verses in the Bible that shows us. the Earth is round, and that it's a sphere. Job 10:26 talks about the "circular horizon of the waters", or oceans. And there are other verses.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
If the world is flat, why do all those other planets, when seen through telescopes, look like they are round? Do y'all think it's trickery of the devil? Or maybe those round things in space are God's turds. Have y'all ever considered that?
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Lionheart
The early sub-culture of mankind used to think the sun was a red hot disc that rose in the mornings and went down at night. It was so impressive to them that they gave it deity status. It's very clear that some of the early man DNA has somehow made it through the generations to still exist today. Flat Earthers carry that gene, and a relational strain of it exists in religionists who believe in Adam & Eve, a talking serpent, and a talking mule. ?
Please excuse my tongue-in-cheek humor. I'm just trying to lighten up this topic.
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Tom B
Lionheart...keep on...the world needs the levity...Peace...Tom B
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The Doctor
Actually even as what it is, being in awe of and worship of Sol is one of the more logical forms of deism. After all even the most primitive of humans recognize the change of seasons, the value of the suns warmth and the growing seasons.
One of the dumbest things I ever heard a mormon say when discussing faiths from history with them and mentioning the fact Saint Peter was in fact secretly an Apollo cultist, was "Why would anyone worship the sun it doesnt do anything for us". While standing outside on a spring day surrounded by green trees and blooming flowers.
All forms of worship begin as being thankful for and giving praise for some perceived help. The sun may not be a being that cares one way or another and does what it does for us by complete accident, but the man lost in the desert that finds a pool of water has every logical reason to be thankful for the water and its life sustaining properties.
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Lionheart
Yes, the wonderful thing about Sol is that we can at least physically see it and know that it’s there.
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Rev. Brien
But Lionheart, what about...."darkmatter"? Is it really there? Can you see it? ROFLMAO Sorry my friend, the geek in me just had to do it ????
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Lionheart
Lol. Is everything really an illusion? Are we really here?
That’s the solipsist part of me saying that. ?
Have a great Thanksgiving.
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Rev. Joseph
Well it is not so far off or wrong, God did create mankind. As it is said in Ps. 139:14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. We were created to evolve as most of all God has created. If you aske me science proves the existence of God everyday. Evolution of all created species is a point of proof of the intellectual significance of His works. Thing that are so perfectly created as to evolve and change to suit changes in the environment to meet the needs of its survival. can not happen by mere chance or accident. The theory of the big bang and all the development of life on our planet was not merely an accident. the abilities to survive and change or evolve prove there is an intellectual force of nature controlling it. Is it mere chance that all matter remains in its form right down to the atomic scale? I think not, it is believed Jesus Christ could manipulate matter down to the level of the atoms. It is believe to be how he changed simple water into fine wine. For all that is created and has the ability to change to continue it's survival is the sign of intellectual Force and control. "Amen"
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Lionheart
Thank you for telling us about your beliefs. My beliefs are that what you have said is not true at all, but thank you.
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Rev. Joseph
Hello Lionheart, I'm sorry you don't understand how powerful and creative God is. People wish to separate science from God but what is science but research to find out how God created thing and their works. I have always believed science only proves that God exists, no one can create anything that is capable of evolution. Abilities to reason and change over time, if we were not built with these magnificent abilities we would have never survived beyond our ancestors the cave dwellers. The great whale once walked upon the land and evolved to the sea, I attribute these magnificent changes and abilities to our Father, creator of all whom else could do such wonderful things. It is the forces of the spiritual abilities God places in all he creates. Man builds with flaws in all he constructs. Only God builds with self preservation. From the smallest particle of an atom to the overwhelming expanses of the universe. His magnificence is present in his works. "Amen"
Rev. Joseph
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Lionheart
Your god doesn’t appear to be very powerful at all. He can’t even show up to prove all other religions are wrong. He can’t even show up when children are being abused. He obviously isn’t interested, or couldn’t care less.
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Daniel Gray
Why should he show up to prove to a speck of dust that he is real? When you die and you believe in God and you find he isnt real, then who have you hurt? Nobody. BUT on the other hand when you die and you find out that God IS real ....all this time of you claiming otherwise and trying to get people to believe as you do; just saying "opps sorry my bad" isnt going to cut it.
As long as a person does not harm someone else or be forced to abide by anothers beliefs that may in turn violate their religion, then there is no harm to anyone. Thats something that you really need to learn.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry but he has no reason to show up to disprove you just because you would want him to. At the end of your life if you have been a good man and harmed nobody and there is no God then what harm is there? On the other hand standing in judgement of denying there is a God, I dont think saying "My bad" is going to cut it. I prefer to star on the side of the former instead of the latter.
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Daniel Gray
Standing in judgement and being judged a person who followed Gods law and did good works is far better then being judged and found wanting and trying to say "My bad Who knew"
personally I want to be in the former class instead of the latter
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Lionheart
That’s okay. We do the best we can, in whatever way we need to do it, to get through this life in the best loving way we can.
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Daniel Gray
The simple fact is that you have absolutely no proof that there isnt a deity. I on the other hand can prove that something, some may call it a deity and some may not; does in fact exist. Newtons third law clearly states that "an object in motion will continue to be in motion and an object at rest will continue to be at rest; unless acted upon by an outside force." Now since you want to believe that there is nothing other then what is here and that you believe in the big bang....then please tell me what was the outside force that cause the big bang to happen? According to newton, who is and was much smarter then you; unless there was an outside force to cause the big bang then it never would have happened. So what or who caused it? And dont try to disprove newton as you cant. This is an iron clad bedrock staple of the math and physics of humanity.
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Lionheart
Of course I cannot prove you’re god, or fairies, or Sasquatch, or Zeus, or Vishnu, or any other man made deity don’t exist. I am exactly like yourself. Neither of us can prove those fictional characters don’t exist.
I never said I believe in the Big Bang, but by bringing Newton into the equation you are involving what is called the God of the Gaps, which implies if you don’t know something then a god must have done it. This of course us a fallacious argument with no proof whatsoever. People have for generations used the god of the gaps until science gives the answer and negates that belief. The real answer is that no one knows how the a Universe began. Your theory is just an assumption just like the Big Bang is an assumption.
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Daniel Gray
and yes you are doing a very good job of trying to dispute the parts of science that prove there is a plan for all of this. All the while claiming that you are not doing the exact same thing you accuse others of doing
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Eric Claeyborn
@Rev. Joseph The Bible and evolution contradicts each other. If you're talking about adaptation, then that's another thing, and that's not evolution. When God says, He CREATED man in His image, then I believe that He didn't use evolution to finish His creation, and that man isn't an animal, because animals aren't created in God's image.
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Rev. Joseph
Your lack of understanding the magnificent creative abilities that God processes is your problem. Mankind builds with faults in what he builds God created with perfection in what he creates.
What purpose would it be if God created inferior creatures, God created mankind and all his creatures with the ability to evolve. If not we ourselves would have ceased to exist long passed our cave dwelling ancestors. As once a whale walked upon the land God gave it the ability to evolve to the sea. For what reason we don't know but it did and it was by God's gracious gift of evolution to continue its species, its spirit lives on, it is the lack of understanding how powerful God is that leads people to be blind of this fact. All things were created by God in perfection to survive as he has seen fit.
Sincerely, Rev. Joseph
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Minister Mike
Good lord. Really? This "logic" is so flawed even god is embarrassed for you.
Although not all animals are human, but all humans are animal.
Any species, flora or fauna, that adapts to conditions has evolves. Humans have adapted to their conditions, hence, evolution is part of human history.
Is devolution the belief that a book written hundreds, perhaps thousands of years later, by men who did not witness any of the reported actions?
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Daniel Gray
And yet you have not proved that any animal adapts to their environment....but demand that we believe that it happens. Typical of people like you who throw out items and then demand we believe them even if they make no sense. Take for instance the blind cave fish. people like you would swear that they evolved and removed their eyes. And yet when they are studied its proved that they never had eyes to start with so how could they evolve the eyes away when they never existed?
And yet you steadfastly believe that this happened even when you didnt witness any of it. There is a word for you, and its called hypocrite.
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Minister Mike
🤣 As entertaining, clever, and nonsensical as ever. 🤣🤣
I've demanded nothing - just pointed out verifiable evidence of the facts. And I'm still not destroyed. And yes, I'm a hypocrite - nearly as big a one as you. So what?
Seriously, though, you should read some scientific documents covering the topic of evolution. Or take a trip to the Galapagos with a copy of Darwin's "On the Origin of Species" and then see, even touch, the physical evidence which is there in abundance.
Even you have evolved from some mother's adorable little boy into a snarky little fellow who tries to make others uncomfortable. Entertaining but nonsensical. 😜🤣😂
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Daniel Gray
whats wrong child, mad because you cant prove me wrong or is it that your ego just wont allow you to be humiliated this badly?
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Eric Claeyborn
The bill makes sense. Especially, when Christians believe evolution is a lie and unscientific. Or, instead of having the bill, just dump evolution, and start teaching real science. The Bible and evolution contradicts each other in every way. For example, the Bible shows us... the Earth existed before the sun and the moon. But, evolution says, the sun existed before the Earth. Another example... evolution says, a land creature EVOLVED into a whale, but the Bible says, the whale was CREATED on Day 5, before the land creatures, which were CREATED on Day 6.
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Don
"just dump evolution, and start teaching real science"
Biological evolution is a scientific fact. Sorry if that hurts your feelings.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry but its not. Thats why it is still called a theory. Do try and keep up
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Robert Philip Ryden
Yes, the Bible and evolution contradict each other. But here’s the thing: there is overwhelming evidence for evolution; there is no evidence whatsoever for Creationism. There is no evidence that the Bible is true.
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Daniel Gray
No sorry but every piece of so called proof of evolution can be destroyed just as badly as every piece of creationism. Nobody knows what happened and all we are doing is taking it on faith. Thats called a religion. meaning child that evolution is just as much a religion as creationism is. Game set and match, you lose.
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Minister Mike
If you're right, a biblical day is a bit more than 10 million years. Whale history started on land and evolved into a water-dwelling species over a period of about 100000 centuries.
However, since, according to your timeline, land dwellers were created after sea dwellers, it could not have happened on day five.
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Daniel Gray
prove it, especially since you were not around to see it happen. All you are doing is relying on the writings pf people who were not around to witness this. So hows it feel to have your own words thrown back into your face proving that you dont know what you are talking about
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Minister Mike
Still the clever little fellow, aren't you, Danny boy? And still entertaining! 🤣
No, I wasn't there to see it, but there is plenty of physical evidence anyone can look at and, in many cases even touch. That and the math.
I do wish you were clever enough believe more than what you read about entities that have no scientific physical evidence to support their existence. But, hey, if you want to believe it, far be it for me to tell you not to believe in fairy tales.
But, I concede, you are still a clever little fellow with a modicum of entertainment value. I hope others are enjoying your clever little rants as much as I. 😆
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Daniel Gray
Only entertaining to you because the rest of the thread has seen how badly you have been proved wrong and are entertained on how you try and fail at a rebuff or to prove me wrong as this is the best you can do and still no evidence to prove your claims?
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Rod Gesner
Willful ignorance is what I call it... Students that wish to answer with Bible based answers should have to show they listened to the Scientific part of the Lesson and Argue their beliefs against the Class lesson with Proper Scientific process and Logic; But then if it comes to HIS-Story that is a Variable Without Scientific Basis; as it Like Religion, is Often Taught By the Regional Ruling Class; or the Survivors with Printing presses.. Faith often Drives history of conflicts; as War Crimes are often Justified by Religious reasons; or Simply They were doing EVIL First, so We had To retaliate in kind or WORSE..
As the Saying goes the Difference between a Freedom Fighter and a Terrorist is Who's Side They are On!! the Crusades were fought by Europe's "True Believers"and the Jews and Muslims Alike were targeted... England has it's version of the "Revolutionary War"; But the USA has it's Version of Many (or Multiple Truths These days;) China Their's, the Muslims have theirs; the Zionists Their's..... So to True/lie Deal with All Sides we should have Comparative Science, religions, Math, Geography, Astronomy, And History... What about Medicine Should the Xtian Scientists be aloud to answer "Just Pray harder" to all medical Issues, The Snake handlers Bring their Rattlers, Cobras and Cotton mouths, to the ER for their internship???
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Minister Mike
I was born and raised in Ohio, and moving away is one of the better things I've done with my life. A lot of people joke about the mental retardation of the population south of the Mason-Dixon line, but if that retardation is multiplied by 10 and the joking removed, one will plainly see a Buckeye.
Religious texts can be used to "prove" anything, so, no, wrong answers cannot be accepted as correct answers unless the the class/subject matter is religion, philosophy or any other topic based on opinion. Students of objective subjects (science, math, etc.) take tests to prove to the instructor that they have mastered the material taught in text books and class rooms. Current testing does not preclude a child from believing that the big bang is "intelligent design", but to get the question right on the test, the child must know that the answer to the question on the test is "the big bang" and put it down as such.
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Daniel Gray
yes and you are clearly an example of your own statement
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Minister Mike
What's your point other than to sow discord?
But you're still entertaining as any other six year old.
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Daniel Gray
whines the person who constantly swears that there is no God and yet wants to post on a religious board.
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Minister Mike
😂 News flash! I've never sworn or ever stated there is no God. And certainly never whined about it. I firmly believe - without verifiable evidence - god exists. All of them
Thing is, I don't believe others should have to believe or worship as I do. I don't want laws that make fairy tales facts.
I suppose there is a need to reconsider my belief in your entertainment value, clever Danny boy - you value is really on the 4 year-old level. But keep it up and your value will get you to a point where you can start over. 😂
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Daniel J. Trebas
Allowing kids to be straight A students based only on their assertions that their answers were divinely inspired only further reduces whatever educational value our educational system may still have. Public education, in many ways, has become an exercise of indoctrination through the would-be ruling classes selective propaganda (especially in the history classes). What's really needed are classes that help develop logistic reasoning skills that can be applied to ANY future situation. Of course this would reduce the blind allegiance to most social engineering paradigms so it's no surprise that this article shows how the misuse of religious freedoms is being used to move in the opposite direction.
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Cleveland Washington Christie
How long is a God day? Is it 24 hours in an Earth day, a Mars day, the time that it takes to drive from Cincinnati to Miami, or what? Seven days to God could either be a long or short cycle of days...seriously.
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Minister Mike
See Eric Claeyborn's claim above your post. The biblical day is described in a response to it.
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Norbert Roy Laengrich
I think this law could open a can of worms as many have commented. But I think the whole situation does not address the underlining problem. Forget the religious side of the discussion for a minute. Today there are two theories about the origin of the universe, the earth, and life on earth. One is the Big Bang followed by evolution. The other is creation by an intelligent creator (who religions call "God"), Many scientists who believe in intelligent creation do not hold to the "young earth" theory. Even some Christian theologians believe there was a large time gap between the creation in Genesis 1:1 and the "re-creation" starting in Genesis 1:2. So leaving religion out of the mix, simply teach both origin theories and test the students on how well they have understood the two theories, giving equal weight. Even those who do not believe in "God" should not be offended by teaching the intelligent creator theory. And parents who worship any god can adapt the teachings to their religious viewpoint. Problem Solved!
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Robert Philip Ryden
Ahhh...Intelligent Design finally comes into the conversation. It’s a safe thing to believe because it can’t be proved or disproved. In other words, it isn’t science. However, certain things convince me that it makes no sense. If God designed humans, presumably he designed everything else, too; for example, the malaria parasite and the mosquito that carries it, which together kill millions of your “god-designed” humans. God apparently has a cruel sense of humor.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Every subject being taught in school today has correct and incorrect answers. It is no different if you study government, chemistry, math, or evolution. Those are the subjects and there is no ambiguity when answering questions. This would be the same if we were to teach religion. Your answer would be based on what religion you are studying. Freedom of religion gives us the privilege to worship any form of religion we choose. It is not a license to re-write history or suppress alternate few points. If you want to teach creation in school, then teach it. Personally, I don’t see why it shouldn’t be taught since 95% of the world's people believe in God in one form or another. Just Sayin James Riggle
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Albert Douglas DuBois
The Bible, in 1 Kings, says that the square root of pi is 3. Good luck getting through math with that.You can be pious without being scientifically and mathematically illiterate. Intelligent design went out with Dover versus Kitzmiller so, It’s a shame that we’re even having this conversation. There are thousands of religions in the world but there’s only one science. Teach science.
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Daniel Gray
Ok child, then please explain how newtons third law contradicts your beloved big bang theory. You remember the one that says "An object in motion will stay in motion, and an object at rest will stay at rest unless acted upon by an outside source." This is bedrock science and cannot be refuted. So tell me child, exactly what was the outside force that caused your beloved big bang to happen? You claim that science is correct, but newton has just proved you wrong. I wont expect a reply as you cant refute this in any way. Am I saying it was God who did this? No as I dont know. But I DO know that newton has just destroyed your belief that science is always correct.
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Minister Mike
How can anything destroy someone's belief? Is there any verifiable evidence to support the supposition? Or math to maintain it?
Your response would have been a good one if not couched as personal attack on Albert. Shame on you.
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Daniel Gray
Yes there is and any instructor in Physics will tell you that this is basic fact. As such it is not an attack on anyone when you show them they are wrong and only a low intelligence person would even consider it an attack. I mean get real Mike, teachers show students they are wrong daily so using your disputed logic, that means according to you when a teacher shows someone they are wrong they are attacking them. Do you bother to read what you post before you post as if you did then you would not post such silly responses.
Newtons law of Motion An object at rest stays at rest and an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an outside force.
Now tell us oh foolish one exactly how are you going to refute Newton?
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Minister Mike
OK, I give up. What verses in 1 Kings says that the square root of pi is 3? Please, a direct quote - a jumble of numbers doesn't count.
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Daniel Gray
Good glad that you gave up as not only does Newton destroy you
Newtons law of Motion An object at rest stays at rest and an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an outside force.
And geometry also proves that you dont know what you are talking about. 1+1=2 right? Nope not in geometry. 1+1=3 Let x=y. Then
x - y + y = y
x - y + y y --------- = --- x-y x-y
y y 1 + --- = --- x-y x-y 1 = 0Now we know that 1 = 1, so add the following three equations together:
1 = 0 1 = 1 1 = 1
On the right is 1+1, and on the left is 3 ones, and 3 ones make 3.
Do try next time to actually think before you make such a foolish claim to back up your ignorance.
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Minister Mike
Aren't you a clever little fellow, showing your work like a big boy! Too bad it is nonsensical as are most of your posts. 🤣
What is really amazing - I'm not destroyed! Not one li'l bit, clever fellow. However, I am entertained and hope there are others who enjoy your posts with the same amount of glee.
Now, to the crux of the matter - the question was, "What verses in 1 Kings says that the square root of pi is 3?" and was directed to Albert, the original poster. But, feel free to blather on and try to sow discord - even clever little fellows need a hobby. 😜
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Daniel Gray
The only one posting nonsense here is you Mike. Thats why you keep being shown what a fool you are and yet you refuse to accept it. maybe you should re-educate yourself with something other then comedy central as with each and every post you sound more and more like Bubba J
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Minister Mike
Well, clever little boy, what makes you so certain I have any desire to refute Newton. I do admit you excel in using the 'copy/paste' tools.
Stay on topic - answer my questions, danny boy - How can anything destroy someone's belief? Is there any verifiable evidence to support the supposition? Or math to maintain it? (and show your work, again. 🤣🤣🤣🤣) Oh, and why do you always try to obfuscate the questions you can't answer?
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Daniel Gray
What make me certain is that you constantly seem to claim that evolution is fact, and yet give no proof of same. Yet again you have been proved wrong and your oversized ego refuses to allow you to accept the simple fact
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Albert Douglas DuBois
Hi Mike.
1 Kings 7:23 The biblical description that the bowl has a diameter of 10 cubits and a circumference of 30 cubits suggest that in the construction of the basin, π was approximated with the integer value 3. This is consistent with the practice in Babylonian mathematics at the time.
Mark 4:30-32 Mustard seed is definitely NOT the smallest seed in the world (orchid seed is 15x smaller) and it doesn’t grow into a tree.
Leviticus 11:20-23 All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be detestable to you. (Insects have 6 legs)
Leviticus 11:13-19 “‘These are the birds you are to regard as unclean and not eat because they are unclean: the eagle, the vulture, the black vulture.......the desert owl, the osprey, the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat.” (A bat is a mammal)
Days of creation list Day 1: Light Day 2: Atmosphere / Firmament Day 3: Dry ground & plants Day 4: Sun, moon & stars Day 5: Birds & sea animals Day 6: Land animals & humans Day 7: The Sabbath of rest
(Where did light come from on day 1? The sun wasn’t created until day 4)
If you don’t like the creation story in Gen. 1 though, you can go with Gen. 2 since it’s completely different. In Gen. 2 animals were made sometime after Adam was created because he was lonely.
I love the Bible, but it’s not science. It’s how people explained the world BEFORE science. I want a doctor, not a shaman.
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Minister Mike
Albert, thanks for the response, but there is no answer in it to my question. And why all quotes that have nothing to do with the question? Maybe because the answer is "1 kings does not state or even indicate that the square root of pi =3?"
The first math for pi (the mathematical constant 3.14159) was worked out by Archimedes a couple centuries after 1 Kings was written. The actual value of the square root of pi (approximately 1.77245) is a far cry from biblical claim of 3, so there doesn't appear to be any verifiable evidence the Babylonians figured out pi or its square root.
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Lionheart
i think the most accurate part of the Bible is the page numbering. I haven’t seen any incorrect page numbering yet. As for what’s contained on those pages is of course purely speculation and some wild sick fantasies.
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Daniel Gray
And most rational people think the most accurate part of your posts is the period you use at the end of same.
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Lionheart
And to back up your statement your empirical data is where? Would it by any chance be just as lacking as your evidence of a God?
It’s very possible that rational people believe in logic and reason, which to me sounds more logical than those who believe in myth.
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Daniel Gray
Already did, and your post just proved it
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Lionheart
If your god was real he wouldn’t need you to rely on to attempt to prove his existence.
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Daniel Gray
And why should he come down here just to face a little speck like you whos opinion amounts to the same thing...a speck of dust.
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Lionheart
You might want to include the specs of dust of the whole of humanity as well in your comment. You know who I mean, the ones he’s supposed to have created that he’s also not interested in showing his face to, not just me. Yet another example of his none existence.
Seen any cute little fairies lately?
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Richard Lee Cornell
Is the Catholic still blaming everything that goes wrong on Jews? Making fun of Jews are rewarded while making fun of Muslims are condemned. Then you have the local religious students who used their religion to attack each other who have a slight version of the Bible. Not all Christians believe in that everything so written 2000 years ago did occur as put down. Example has been that Jesus gave out 5000 loafs of bread and 5000 uncooked fishes. Kosher? In this country school are run by public teachers who teach reality not what was put down by a person of faith. Would you like to have one of the 3 witches teaching their version of life.
This is absolutely absurd. The public education system in this country is insidiously broken as it is. I speak as insider. If you want to attempt to answer academic questions with religious answers, then you can pay for your own private, religious based "schooling". You can do your religion on your own time.