By now everyone has heard about the ongoing debate over transgender bathroom policy. Supporters of transgender rights argue that people who identify as transgender should be allowed to use whichever restroom they are more comfortable with. Those who oppose this idea claim that, among other things, such a policy will make it easier for sexual predators to attack people particularly women and children when in the restroom.
Transgender Youth
This issue gets even more complicated when talking about school-age kids. Whether or not transgender youth should be allowed to use the school restroom of their choice is a difficult question, namely because nobody can agree on when exactly a person's gender identity is fully formed. Many people believe that children and teenagers are simply not equipped to establish themselves as transgender adolescence can be a very confusing time, and young people are chock-full of hormones. They are also notorious for making decisions without properly thinking them through. While some teenagers sincerely identify as transgender, others who say they are may just be going through a phase, or acting out in an attempt to get a reaction. Opponents of this new bathroom policy argue that since adolescents are not capable of making such decisions, students should be required to use the school bathroom that corresponds with their biological gender.
Obama Gets Involved
If this issue wasn't contentious enough already, last week President Obama decided to throw his hat in the ring. The president sent out a letter to every public school district in the country, directing them to begin allowing transgender students to use whichever bathroom they would like. Unsurprisingly, the president's message was met with mixed reactions. Some praised Obama for supporting transgender rights at the national level, while others criticized him for trying to "boss" the schools around. Schools are run by the state, not the federal government, so technically Obama doesn't have the power to immediately change school policy. However, included in his letter was an implied threat: schools that refuse to comply could face lawsuits or cuts in federal funding.
**States vs. The White House
**
At least at this point, a resolution seems unlikely hundreds of school districts from many states have already chosen to ignore the order. It would take a massive effort on the part of the federal government (and many lawsuits) to force the states into compliance. It would also be, by every indication, a messy battle the dissenting states are unlikely to go quietly. In a display of how strong feelings are on the issue, one Texas superintendent proudly declared that Obama's letter was "going straight to the paper shredder".
Role of Parents and Doctors
Let's put the question of state policy aside for a moment and refocus on transgender youth. From a neutral point of view, it would make sense for parents and doctors to play a part in all of this. As with any major decision in their child's life, parents ought to be involved to offer support and guidance. Additionally, a child confused about their gender identity would surely benefit from consulting a medical specialist. Wouldn't this be a more responsible first step than asking a young person, who is just beginning to understand human anatomy, to make such a challenging decision on their own?
Takeaways
The issue of transgender youth really comes down to a debate over maturity and human development. Are adolescents old enough to decide their own gender identities? If so, should there be an age limit? Teenagers are known to be fickle, and those developing years can be a very confusing time. Even the licensed professionals can't agree on a right answer to this question. What do you think? Are young people capable of declaring themselves transgender? On a national level, was Obama right to get involved by telling the schools what to do?
268 comments
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Brother John
Or you could ask different questions like "Do you have any common sense?" or "Do you have any compassion for people who aren't like yourself"? Take a look at the photos in the link and ask "Do you want people who look, act, dress and feel like the opposite sex in a public bathroom with you?" Have a look at the first three photo. (Jamaica Rouge, Joyful Girl and Camille). Do you want them in men's room? Wouldn't they and the non-trans men all feel very uncomfortable? Scroll down a bit more… how about Ashley and James in the women's room? All this immature paranoia is causing problems where they needn't exist and detracting from issues that are far more important.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trans-people-share-stunning-pics-of-themselves-for-whattranslookslike2_us_55a8e027e4b0896514d0f9cd
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askcandyce
Thank you Brother John for your common sense and compassion. I'm actually appalled at some of the judgmental, uncaring comments by some. Shame on them.
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John Owens
I find appalling judgmental uncaring comments coming from every direction. Shame on all, whether there comments are based on intellectualism or fundamentalist teaching or any other. I include myself in this.
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John Owens
typo there, "there comments" should read, "the comments".
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cranberries
Thank you, Brother John. God made these people the way they are and called on us to love and respect them as they are.
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Carrie
Shame on you! This is supposed to be a discussion not your political toilet. Biological sex has nothing to do with gender identity. All the nuts on the wing can claim what they want but it has existed since mankind came to be and can be found in the natural world around us. It may be tricky to spot in children but Some have known since they were very young. There has been found in a lot of cases that part of the chromosone chain is different in transgender individuals making them neither one or the other. When a child begins to talk of self mutilation at the age of four or five, there is something seriously wrong. Truth be told transgender people have been in the population all along, using the bathrooms they want to, and there has never been a single one who has ever been arrested for assault, exposure or any other crime. Most sexual predators are known to the child, and it seems, from the news, that most of them are clergy and politicians who use their office to betray the trust of innocents. In NC where they have implemented this vicious law, the suicide rate is rising amoung children. They are the innocents and as all children they need and deserve protection. This whole discussion has been had before. When I was a child I can still remember the political uproar over allowing blacks to use the same facilities any whites! There is an old saying, "Those who refuse to learn the lessons of the past are doomed to repeat them."
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Brother John
Excellent point about the furor that boiled when basic rights were being granted to blacks, cary. I also remember drinking fountains, restaurants, bathrooms and more for "WHITES ONLY". Sadly there are millions of people who believe those were the good old days ruined by the "lefty liberals".
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Mark Crnkovich
A black pens is still a penis. A woman dressing like a man. Still a woman. Transgender is not real. It's a confusion in the mind due to toxins, environmental and biological. The issue with homosexuality is that it is man made and a disgrace to God. God made man and God made woman. Man made toxins that made men and woman have confusion about there sexual identity. Has nothing to do with the color of their skin. Skin color is a pigment, possessing a penis is not simply a coloration. I fully believe Obama and Monsanto are responsible for all the rise of Homosexuality and Transgender. If they give us the food air and water GOD made, then we will live in his image. If we live like the devil, we live in modern day United states of America.
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Paula Shea
If Monsanto is responsible for them, perhaps they are responsible for you and how your mind works to. Maybe it is all a plot to turn rational people against religion by using those claiming to be loving followers of Christ profess such judgmental and callus commits without actually having the education and science experience to understand what they speak about. Yes, it is probably the way big business and government work together using bigots, snobs, the arrogant and judgmental to turn everyone away from the truth of Christ which was love for everyone, acceptance of all sinners, and the acknowledge that breaking any one commandment is no better than another and we are all sinners and unworthy of salvation, but are saved by nothing more than the act of believing.
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Mark Crnkovich
If you have no idea of who I am, how can you judge the educational knowledge and research I have gained and performed ? I may not type the best on a smart phone keyboard, but I grant you the same quest. Prove to me how a male in physical body, be a female in sexual desires, not be classified as a disorder or disease. When a disease is simply a system set out of its natural working bounds. DIS-EASE. How can you prove that goes against science based LOGIC? Also I have love for everyone. And I want to see EVERYONE successful and achieve the highest potential with our creator God. I want all people to live in peace and love and harmony. I don't spit hate and I definitely am not homophobic, I just want to help them recorrecting the imbalances within their bodies and minds and souls. Peace love and abundance to all
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Rivka
I was trans before obama was born. There goes that argument.
I propose we discuss the condition of being cisgender as something to "understand". Put the rest of you under the microscope.
The fact that one can have a clear gender identity that appears inconsistent with the dust of flesh is one of the most compelling arguments I know for the existence of a soul, that resides in a body but has an apparent existance outside the material.
I belong to a synogogue where the signs on the restroom doors say "Restroom". The stalls are full height - such a simple solution.
It's no more about toilets than having "colored " water fountains was about get a sip.
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Mark Crnkovich
Please reread my comment. I stated the RISE in Transgender and homosexuality; not the causation of ALL homosexuality. Please take a deep breath and reread comments before posting. I also know a lot of people who have been sexually assulted and would die of colon cancer before enter a facility to remove their pants and excrete there toxins. Which our food air and water are full of more toxins now then back then. But if you were born after ww2 then you have more then likely been exposed to Monsanto's poison. Since they are the creator of agent orange, round up(glysophate)
It's not really abut putting people under a microscope it's more about not creating laws to make grey areas in the law books for pedophiles and rapist to prey on easy victims.
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Ken Dixon
What you perceive as a rise is nothing more than an increase of visibility. Transgender and homosexual individuals have been around for all of recorded history. The first gender realignment surgery was performed in the 1920s in Germany. There are stories from decades before that of people right here in the USA living as the "opposite" gender.
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Brother John
Mark asked earlier "how can you judge the educational knowledge and research I have gained and performed?"
As you're correct in saying we don't know who you are, we only have what you've written here to go by. I also believe Monsanto is an evil corporation, but doubt they've had much to do with the rise of homosexuality as you seem to have implied.
Your suggestion that "it’s more about not creating laws to make grey areas in the law books for pedophiles and rapist to prey on easy victims" suggests that LGBT folks tend to be pedophiles and rapists as your opinion without any credible evidence.
And finally, I did take a deep breath and re-read "I also know a lot of people who have been sexually assulted and would die of colon cancer before enter a facility to remove their pants and excrete there toxins". I'm not sure what to think about this, but will take your advice and continue to take deep breaths when required.
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John Owens
I don't think he said anything about LGBT people being pedophiles and rapists. I think he said making grey areas in the law would benefit them. That argument keeps coming up, that people who don't want this are saying LGBT are predators. That is not what I am seeing written. They are saying that making non-gender-specific restrooms will create more opportunities for those who are predators.
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Brother John
There are many comments suggesting that trans folks are sexual predators scattered amongst the couple of threads on this topic, John. Most, if not all, are from bigoted, ill informed Christian fundamentalists. Perhaps you've been scrolling by them, as I have, to avoid polluting your mind.
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John Owens
"Brother John
June 7, 2016 at 1:56 pm
There are many comments suggesting that trans folks are sexual predators scattered amongst the couple of threads on this topic, John. Most, if not all, are from bigoted, ill informed Christian fundamentalists."
First of all, most of those comments come from PRO-trans bathroom supporters, protesting that idea, and NOT from ANTI-trans bathroom supporters suggesting that they are predators.
Secondly--You don't find your own comment bigoted and ill-informed, Bro? It's like you think all Christian fundamentalists are sub-human. That kind of thinking is bigoted and ill-informed. Nazi Germany ill-informed. Group thinking. We are better than they thinking. I would submit there are Christian fundamentalists somewhere in most of our family trees, and most of them did a pretty good job of providing the possibility for us to be here today, Correct, or incorrect?
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Allen K Rhodes
Homosexuality is not man made. It happens in over 400 species of animal world wide, hence made by God.
Do you know what only exists in one species? Homophobia. That is what is man made.
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Mark Crnkovich
Humans are animals, woah. And that doesn't prove that homosexuality is God made. That just means your scope of thinking is quite narrow. Expansion of the consciousness is key to understanding more to life. Then jusy blindly living in black and white terms. How can you make such bold claims that homophobia only exist in one species? And that the toxins we introduce to the animals around us, has nothing to do with their sexual behavior as well?
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Brother John
I haven't noticed you on this forum before, Mark, and assume you've recently joined. Welcome to the ULC! Understand that this is an organization open to all including Atheists, Pagans, Muslims, Christians and many others. As a result there will be disagreements, challenges and even shaming for statements and claims that are simply opinions with no evidence or verification, particularly if they appear bigoted, hateful, or overtly ignorant.
Regarding your questioning of Allen's "bold claim", kindly refer to the following and feel free to present any evidence to the contrary (other than quotes from the Bible that carry no weight with "non-believers").
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2012/03/animals_and_homophobia_are_humans_the_only_species_that_discriminates_against_gays_.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9589899/Stephen-Fry-260-animals-have-gay-tendencies-but-only-humans-are-homophobic.html
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John Owens
There is only one species where two males in rut will prefer one another over a female in estrous, though-- homo-sapiens. In other species the males will fight or otherwise compete for the privilege of breeding with the eligible female. Yes, both males and females will hump each other (or your leg) when their hormones kick in, but that is totally instinctive action, like scratching an itch. If eligible partners are available and willing for copulation, they WILL go to that partner.
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John Owens
Is it not a sort of devolution to seek validation from the animal world? Without going into detail, I mean, they do all kinds of things we find disgusting. My previous point remains, though. Haven't had anyone dispute it.
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Ken Dixon
"I fully believe Obama and Monsanto are responsible for all the rise of Homosexuality and Transgender. If they give us the food air and water GOD made, then we will live in his image."
Here are some famous transgender people from as far back as the 1700s. There is no "rise". More people are feeling free to be themselves now.
http://www.ranker.com/list/transgender-people-in-history/devon-ashby?format=SLIDESHOW
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JG
One minor problem with your flawed logic, there: race/skin color is not the same as the disorder of "gender identity". These poor unfortunate souls are not "transgendered" they are disordered and need treatment. It is just like any other mental disorder, we are to provide treatment, not further the disease. Take a similar mental disorder: schizophrenia. What does society do for these people? Do we praise them for their delusions and assist them in living out their hallucinations? Of course not, we direct them to treatment to help them alleviate their condition. The same way with the disorder of "gender identity".
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Rivka
Check your science. It has been proven not a mental illness. Kids sent to be "cured" have a huge suicide rate. True, given the crap we take and internalize as self loathing does lead to a higher incidence of mental issues - like anxiety. Tends to happen when you're told over and over you're a pervert, deranged, and basically "icky". My middle name honors a 17 year old woman who killed herself after being forced to go to conversion "therapy". By parents who claim to embrace Xianity.
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Brother John
That's particularly true when the "cure" involves the use of anti-depressants, Rivka, which is disturbingly common.
https://www.drugwatch.com/ssri/suicide/
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A' Yo
Transgenderism is a classification not a disorder or disease. It is not a mental disorder either. It is a biological / physiological mismatch of genetics. Alleviating the "disorder" of gender identity is a surgery called sexual reassignment. It is expensive and very few insurances cover it. It in no way resembles schizophrenia as there are no hallucinations or delusions. Ask yourself the question... When did I realize that I was Male or female ( i cannot tell what you are by your name and lack of picture)? When did that knowing come to you? When you were very young. It came to transgendered people at the same time. Only problem was, is that it did not fit the social construct of male/female binary that we live in.
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Barbara Wojciak
Thank you, Cary, for your caps soon and common sense.
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Barbara Wojciak
Sorry about the "caps soon" in my comment above. Autocorrect - like many people- doesn't recognize "compassion."
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John Wilson
For some reason there seems to be all this concern of late about transgender use of bathrooms. Why? Transgender is not a new challenge for people. It's been going on since the dawn of time. There hasn't been this volume of conversation, division and bigotry forever. No reason to "fix" something that wasn't broken.
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Rev Dodd
True, transgender a have used the restroom of their choice for years without issue. The problem is the way the Oder was handed down and places like Target allowing any an man (obviously not transgender and potentially a sexual predator) to openly walk into female areas no question asked. This is a direct violation to a woman's right to privacy and safety. On another example, a lot of school locker rooms are open and have one large open shower with multiple shower heads (no stalls), I don't feel it is right to expose my young daughter to a penis at such a young age of 11.
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Tara Grimmer
"... and places like Target allowing any an man (obviously not transgender and potentially a sexual predator) to openly walk into female areas no question asked."
That's not what Target's policy does. It allows transgender WOMEN who are uncomfortable with using a bathroom or changing room other than the women's room to use the women's room like any other woman would. Nowhere does it invite cisgender men to use the women's rooms. At all.
Furthermore, the only men who have been inspired to walk into Target women's rooms so far have been anti-trans protesters who have been lurking win women's rooms to try to "prove" that there's a problem. When caught, they are removed from the premises immediately.
And the LAST thing that any trans person wants is to expose their un-repaired genitals to ANYBODY. Trans students (and trans gym members, for that matter) avoid open multi-head showers like the plague. Which most schools these days have gotten rid of anyway, because frankly they are kind of awful even if you're not trans.
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Rev Dodd
Tara, you may be correct on the men exploiting the policy; however, at both of my local Target stores men in male suits and scraggly looking men (not dresses as female) have been using the female restrooms without question. When females complained to store managers or security, they were chastised stating that either sex was welcome to use either restroom. In these situations they are inviting sex offenders.
Like I said transgender have used the restroom of their choice without issue; until this became a public issue.
I don't know where you are from, but the majority of the schools in my state are old and still open locker rooms and showers, no stalls.
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Rev paul
Rev Dodd you have a very good point
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Tom
Go to a public rest room, do your business, wash your hands and leave the room. Do not concern yourself with who else is there. This is the way it has been for decades. Why manufacture a problem that has taken care of itself for years? We have been going to public rest rooms with gay, transgender, and perverted people for years. If you are in the room focusing on what other people are, you are the problem, not them. Stop the nonsense and re-read my first sentence.
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askcandyce
Amen!!
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Ken Dixon
"We have been going to public rest rooms with gay, transgender, and perverted people for years."
Exactly. And a mind that immediately goes to "sex" when thinking of restrooms has a perversion all its own.
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Brother John
Good point, Ken. Have a look at the number of comments on the articles relating to sex and bathrooms compared to any others (with the possible exceptions of Muslims). There are some very sexually repressed people posting their "inside voices"
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Brother John
Is it possible that this non-issue is having it's flames fanned to draw attention away from an economy in near collapse, on-going wars without end and the sideshow known as U.S. elections? Much of the world shakes it's collective head in disbelief.
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Tom
Do ya think? That's a yes!
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Pastor Pete
Hear hear! What are we actually being diverted from?
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John Owens
Much more sinister things, I'm sure.
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askcandyce
Hear, hear!!!
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William Waugh
I, for one, am still flabbergasted that the political discourse over non-issues such as this (especially this) have received the attention they have BEFORE, solving the social prohibition of marijuana problem. Is there no end to the nonsense that bubbles out of an alcoholic society!.........oh yes I did say that!
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Brother John
Don't forget the plethora of prescription drugs that are legally gobbled like candy, WW (often washed down with a good, stiff drink). Way less dangerous than pot!! And far more profitable.
http://www.narconon.ca/drug-abuse/prescription-drugs-worldwide.html
This could be way off base, but maybe the "war on drugs" and filling the corporately owned prisons with non-violent offenders is also incredibly profitable.
https://www.aclu.org/gallery/marijuana-arrests-numbers
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William Waugh
As Sheldon Cooper would say, (lead character on Big Bang Theory) "That was sarcasm right? I'm really not good at this.
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Brother John
"Way less dangerous than pot" was indeed sarcasm. The mention of profits was not.
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Minister Mishale Stairs
I knew I was declared the wrong gender at 4 years old and had never heard of gay or trans so the root of transgender people is deeper than a chromosome. I was also later in life informed I was born a hermaphrodite so after being raised male and fed testosterone I looked very manly now I am changing to my other birth gender which my mind knew of even when my conscious mind didn't. They "fixed" me at birth in hopes I'd never know so laws banning transgender people ban me as well. The brain is God's greatest gift and the brain declares gender.
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Martin Bates
Lived many years in the same situation, now I accept both of my genders(XXY)...thank you for sharing, nice to know not alone
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A' Yo
There are many of us out here!
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Robert T Butler
My what a tangled Web we weave !
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Michele
Ditto with comment "Sex is biological. Gender identity is psychological. The test is “Do you have a penis?” Then use the men’s room. If you don’t have one, then use the women’s room. It really is that easy."
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Ben
I have a non-functional vagina and a non-functional penis. I am bald and bearded. My birth certificate documents that I am male. So, which bathroom would you have me use?!
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David
I am all for LGBT rights, as long as they do not conflict with the rights of others. The issue here really has less to do with the transgender community than it does with small children.
If a young girl in the locker room is exposed to make genitalia, it will likely make no difference to her whether the genitalia was attached to a gay man, a straight man, a bi-sexual man, or a biological man who had gender issues.
Here, providing an accommodation for the gender-confused directly impacts the rest of the community.
Our society has adopted certain norms. Underage girls are not permitted to go to movies where male genitalia is shown. There is a reason for that.
If you allow biological men to undress in women's locker rooms, you violate centuries' old societal norms.
So, to me, it is fairly simple. If you have a penis, use the men's room. If you have a vagina, use the ladies' room. This simple approach will preserve the right to privacy enjoyed by young women (and young men).
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Martin Bates
I have both which one do I use???
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Ben
I have a non-functional vagina and a non-functional penis. I am bald and bearded. My birth certificate documents that I am male. So, which bathroom would you have me use?
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Shane G. Lowrey
It doesn't harm a child of any age to see another person naked.
It's the parents, and the fear, shame, and loathing they teach, that makes this an issue. The suposed adults are the problem.
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McLellan
The notion that see a young girl seeing a person with male genitalia will some how affect her in someway is nonsense. For this matter it depends on your raising and what social values you were taught by your parent/s and others.
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Bill
I as a single male parent believe that we influence our children and what they believe. If as a women you take a little boy into the ladies often enough they will tend to think that is ok. Also it is the opposite with girls and their dads. I have three surviving daughters one who went and lived with her mother at the age of 16 and is very feminine where as the other two who stayed are tom boyish and sort of like a lot of male oriented things. I believe we influence the children while they are young and as they grow the role models are who they a line with. If a female is a dominant gender then they tend that way and vice versa. My questions are as a Campus Security Person " how do we know if a person is genuine or fake in being a Transgender? Who will be responsible for any rapes or pedophilia that takes place? Will we be able to sue Mr Obama for implementing this law if something happen?
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Ben
Heck. Sometimes, when I am in the men's room, a business woman will walk in and say, "Sorry, guys, all are stalls are full," and then help herself to one of ours.
Women don't seem to be frightened about going into a men's room packed with men, why should they be frightened if a transwoman walks into a women's restroom?
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videoscenes
Look in your pants. Now, enter the appropriate bathroom! Young or old. Doesn't matter. Forcing any business/school to comply with this absurd policy is likely unconstitutional.
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Ken Dixon
So you didn't know if you were a boy or a girl until you looked between your legs? Whatever makes us individuals exists in our brains. The rest is mechanics and plumbing.
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Here's What's Wrong
There is always a chance that a person will behave inappropriately in a bathroom, regardless of their gender identity. We live in an age of increasing awareness of sexual harassment, assault, and other atrocities. Statistically speaking, heterosexual males are the most likely perpetrator of these sorts of crimes in the U.S. Which bathroom a person uses really, really isn't going to change when and how one of these individuals assaults someone, so that line of fear mongering is purely propaganda.
That being said, I believe that citizens of this country should be able to express themselves as they please, and live as they please, but I believe that minors transitioning between genders is inappropriate. If you spend any time in a public high school, the indecision of students about their identity, and I mean identity not related to gender, fluctuates monthly. Teenagers have difficulty deciding what their hair color should be, what group to hang around with, and what they'll be when they mature. Based on patterns in adolescent psychology, it seems imprudent to allow students to make such a vast and life altering decision until they are adults.
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Dr. Arthur Frederick Ide
That anything that is discussed about an individual's right of choice is absurd. I am so glad that I renounced god and religion, and the chains it forges to drag mortals down.
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Daisy Carroll
We all have the right to be comfortable. And none of this was an issue til Bruce Jenner did what he did and came out of the closet. As for as me using the bathroom with a man in the next stall NO I do not want to do that. I believe GOD gave us the body parts he wanted us to have and we should be thankful just to be living. If GOD had wanted us to be a different gender then HE would have made us that gender. GOD is perfect and makes no mistakes. It is the human race and their free will that GOD so generously gave us that has ruined the beautiful world that GOD has given us. So please be thankful to have a life and live in a free land where you have the ability to complain about stupid stuff. But remember one day we will all have to stand before our GOD and answer as to why we lived our life the we did.
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Martin Bates
God gave me both parts, so which bathroom would you like me to use???
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Lee
Daisy, God did not give us a beautiful world. God gave us a world to make beautiful and we have failed. Perhaps if man had spent more years serving God than praising God, the outcome would have been better.
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pastorrichard13
The solution is simple, yet everyone wants to make it difficult. Create a third bathroom choice, Intersex bathrooms. No rights are infringed upon and everyone is happy. But Noooooooo the human race is so ignorant that the simple solution eludes us.
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Rev paul
Daisy I respect your right to use a bathroom with ladies only when I go to a public bathroom it's the men's room I don't care who is in the next stall as long as they leave me alone I have no problem with this
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Jürgen
In Berlin (Germany) we have now a lot of Restrooms areas with three ways: men, women and others. Its crazy. And in other districts we have only one room - for all. A toilette is a toilette, nothing more. In trains, ins airplanes we have only one :-)
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Shane G. Lowrey
Maybe it's time for the U.S. to return to gender nutral bathrooms, lockers, etc. They only gender split them in the mid/late 1800s.
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Cyrena
A bathroom label isn't going to stop a sexually based attack from happening to women, children, or men. Just as a no smoking sign doesn't stop a person from smoking. And Gender Identity Disorder is a REAL psychological disorder that can't be "fixed". Many people have suffered hating themselves for the body they were physically born with while their brain is telling them it's wrong. Can you imagine waking up one day in the body of the opposite sex but your mind still thinks the way it does today? Now imagine being a child and having everyone tell you that what you're feeling is wrong when you know in your heart of hearts it's right? Many people know they're born in the wrong body when they're young, but they have adults telling them that nature doesn't make mistake. Mistakes happen. A persons genitalia doesn't determine their gender, just as it doesn't determine a persons worth.
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Restrepo
What about changing rooms/locker rooms? I don't want MY daughter anywhere near some hairy naked man with a "disorder" that makes him think he's a woman.
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Ken Dixon
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/5/19/1528469/-Dear-creepy-heterosexual-men-guarding-our-bathrooms
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Steven J Frey
First of all, Obama has over stepped his authority once again. He personally does not have the power to dictate school restroom policy.
Secondly, all the focus seems to be on the transgender student's rights. What about the rights of the rest of the students? Why do they need to be subjected to this? As the father of three girls, I do not want any young man being able to walk into a girl's/women's restroom (or worse, locker room) simply because they verbalize that they want to! I can say that I identify as a cat, but that doesn't make me one.
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Meralyn
Please inform yourself about transgender and ALL of the scientific research about it. (Not the idiots like you who are scared of people who are different.) Please for the sake of your family and the rest of the people that you influence inform yourself about transgender. You have no clue what hate you are spitting into the world. You are thinking with your male mind and not understanding what you are saying.
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John Owens
Steven, I'm sorry the woman (I guess Meralyn is a woman's name, but these days, who knows? I guess it depends on the state of mind) called you an idiot and insinuated that you are uninformed and are spitting hate, because of your male mind. As a protective father of three girls who is trying to provide a safe environment for them you probably deserve more respect than that. I did not read any hate in this post of yours, although I haven't read everything on the blog.
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John Owens
I for one, am not afraid of people who are different. Many of my friends are from other cultures, and I use words and expressions of their languages, and I like to read "Selecciones" (Reader's Digest en Español). I have been involved in music and drama a good bit in the past, so people who are "different" are not frightening to me.
Having said that, giving the "different" control of the society is not to be done lightly. It's fun and interesting to have unusual or artsy friends and acquaintances around. It is quite another thing to give them control over your family and finances, and culture. My red Chinese ex-wife, for example-- she's a great cook, great at haggling over prices, and I loved being around her family, but I do not want my community to become like a red Chinese village. There is a reason Chinese people leave China.
Same goes for my Cuban friends. I love their cooking. We love to sit and argue about mundane things and play dominoes. We love to dance and celebrate, but I don't want to see my community turned into a Cuban community. It has nothing to do with how many Cubans are in it. I mean I don't want it administrated in the way they do things in Cuba. They LEFT Cuba because of the way it is administrated.
I'm all about trying to be accepting and accommodating. There are limits to that, of course.
I belong to a fairly rare and different sect of Christianity. I am the minority wherever I go. I don't ask people to change their diet, but I do want them to remember mine if they are having a meal catered. I don't demolish the Christmas trees and Christmas cards at that time of year, or give them a hard time. They all know where I stand--Santa represents Satan and Christmas is a sun-worshipping, pagan holiday. If they can convince themselves to pretend it's about Jesus, more power to them. Just don't expect me to participate or go to the Party.
I am also a biker. Not a one-per center, but I am an officer and patch-holder in a bona-fide MC that was founded in 1946. I don't wear a Chaplain strip, but I'm recognized as the de-facto Chaplain in my Chapter. Our club is a racially inclusive club and an international one. we have brothers all over Europe, the islands, South Korea, Australia, probably Guam and Saipan but I haven't checked. We don't care about your size, religion, skin-color, or language. We care about what kind and size bike you ride, and if you are trustworthy.
I was born to a military family and have lived and/or worked in most of the United States east of the Mississippi River. Lived in Scotland, Ireland, England, Puerto Rico, China, and Mexico.
Please don't be so narrow-minded as to use words like "xenophobic" or "homophobic" with me. You don't know me. I have a rich lifetime of travel, work, art, religion, and life on which to draw my conclusions about things. If you want to have an intelligent conversation, I cannot stop you from trying, but being a conservative does not mean being ignorant. It means being intelligent and having experience. Winston Churchill said that.
I work with the public every day. I am thrilled when someone comes in who is "different". Still, the business I do has to be done pretty much the same (with very minor variations) no matter who is the customer. Our parts don't come in rainbow colors, and we don't give them away. Our rest-rooms are divided in the traditional manner, and will remain so, and anyone who uses them will respect that or will be educated on proper etiquette. This is how it is and will remain in most places, now and forever.
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Rev paul
Right now it's a directive from Obama's office that no one has the power to enforce
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RF
Absolutely not
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lolno (@LolNoNom)
Well from what I hear, most doctors are assholes when it comes to any kind of psychological or female problems. I don't mean to group them together for any particular reason, just that they're both problems that doctors have a terrible habit of ignoring or making worse.
The main issue I have was that the email said "Underage transitions okay?" when in fact a transgender person doesn't have to go through a transition to decide on their gender. They can figure that out on their own. If it takes time and they decide "it was just a phase" fine. Better to have tried to figure it out than just be stifled and accused of being abusive or a predator.
I also find it incredibly ignorant for all these people to say there is "only" XX and XY people. I'm pretty sure some people have XXY. Plus at birth it's usually up to the doctor to decide on the baby's sex if their sexual organs are atypical. I feel like in the past this was even worse than now at determining sex.
While I do find that Obama's reaction was heavy handed, I do think it was necessary. It weeds out those who are going to be a problem later on when social issues such as this come up. No surprise about Texas though.
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Brian Seeger
What do we do then about areas where there is only one restroom facility for both genders aka Uni-Sex which has been going on in Texas and I am sure other states for years?
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Rev paul
Brian we have unisex bathrooms here in Virginia that have only one toliet in them so people have to go in one at a time
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Samantha Tully
It's easier to transition from one sex tot he other BEFORE puberty. If I had kids and one of them wanted to be a different sex, I would support them and try to help them to change genders..
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Restrepo
Kids also believe Santa Claus and the tooth fairy exist! HELLO, kids are DUMB. Parents should know what is best. By all means buy your son a barbie if that's what he really wants, but don't start dressing him up like one! What happened to common sense in this country
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Ellen M. Santistevan
It's not a matter of "allowing" kids to "swap" genders -- it is recognition of the true self that is permitted to be visible rather than suppressed. And so what if some of them change their minds? Their journey is their own, not yours. You don't know what they are going through. I agree with the commenters who point out that if YOU are the one trying to "police" the bathroom for gender variant people, you are the problem, not them.
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Penny
My problem with underage transgendered persons being able to use the restroom they choose to goes a little deeper. Almost all teenagers go through an awkward stage of "finding themselves". No, my gothic style of dressing as a youth isn't the exact same as being transgendered. However, what if the person is just having an identy crisis? What if they change their minds a few months or even a year or two later? What if it's just to get attention? Are we encouraging that, and ultimately setting them up to be bullied or teased more? I know for a fact that bullying still happens and the majority of schools still do nothing about it. It's very sad but very true. My daughter dresses like a male and is graduating highschool this year. I am very supportive to her! She wore a tux to prom and is wearing slacks to graduation. For the past year she has worn a binder to flatten her chest. To look at her you'd think she is a boy. As a matter of fact anytime that she can get away with it, she tells people her name is Shawn. Though we live in a large city, and it's not uncommon to see transgenders, she was still teased at school occasionally. I wouldn't want her in the mens room at school! What if the jerks that tease and bully in the halls and classrooms are in there? There is no cameras, no teachers, and perhaps no other students that would defend her. Would the comments like "I can f**k you straight" result in a physical attack? Would the bullying be amplified? Perhaps a single stall restroom with a locking door (like a family restroom) for transgenders would be a solution. (Optional to use of course)
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Dan Henkel
I think the discussion we should be having has been sidetracked. Why are we obsessing about bathrooms? We as a culture need to more broadly understand gender identity and gender orientation and how to resolve legitimate conflicts of rights (e.g., right to religious freedom vs. the right for equal access to accommodations, services and freedoms). Too many people still lack a basic understanding of what it is to be gay or lesbian. Many people believe gender is a simple, binary status and that one "chooses the gay lifestyle." In fact, it's a continuum with countless distinctions and variations.
Gay and trans friends have taught me that there are four manifestations of sex: natal sex (the anatomy one is born with--which is as far as some people get); gender identity (feeling one is male or female, or otherwise); gender attraction (the sex to which one is attracted), and gender presentation (dressing and acting as male or female--or, again, a blend or otherwise).
I believe we should work diligently to protect the rights of all and to fairly resolve the inevitable conflicts of rights that arise with these issues. And we must continue to thoughtfully educate ourselves and others as our knowledge and understanding evolve.
Let's take a breath, open our hearts and minds, and move on together with love and respect.
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Robyn
Until there is an empirical scientific study proving Transgender is anything more than a lifestyle choice it is not the right of the government to dictate what is acceptable in educational institutions
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John Owens
HEAR, HEAR, ROBYN!! Your comment is short and highly accurate, in my opinion.
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Alfred Finney
"Nothing is more destructive of respect for the government and the law of the land than passing laws which cannot be enforced." Einstien, who also said, "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." If you don't have a basic understanding of the difference in "transvestite" and "transsexual" and "pervert", stop and spend a moment on Google or a basic search engine more suitable to your level of intelligence.
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kat2wolf
There is medical studies showing that 78% of children who are confused about their identity end up becoming comfortable with their biological gender. It's this reason John Hopkins will not perform gender transformation surgeries. They consider it abuse since only 22% of the children grow up into adults who are not happy living as their biological sex. This bathroom issue shouldn't even be an issue. If a true transgender adult has already gone through the physical changes, then they have been using the bathroom that corresponds to them all along. I highly doubt a man who has gone through a sex change would walk into a men's bathroom.
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Ken Dixon
You are completely misstating the Johns Hopkins position.
http://www.jhunewsletter.com/2014/05/01/hopkins-hospital-a-history-of-sex-reassignment-76004/
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Lisa
A minor under the age of 18 should not have any rights to change their gender until after they become an adult. As a parent, I understand the decisions made by children are not always rational thoughts. Children and teenagers are still developing and understanding who they are. They need to wait until they can make adult choices.
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king Bob
Absolute rot. You are out of you mind!
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Brother John
Good point, Lisa. Postponing important decisions until adulthood is simply good parenting. Although far less extreme than a gender change (particularly if it involves surgery and therapy, this should also apply to visible tattoos and accepting religious dogma as the truth.
That said, there's no guarantee that "adults" will make rational choices, but the odds are far better and there's no one to blame but themselves.
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John Owens
Absolutely right. They are under their parents' supervision or are the State's up to that age, with very few exceptions. They are not legally able to enter into a binding contract, not old enough to join the military (without parental consent), not old enough to marry, obtain a piston permit, give legal consent for most medical procedures, and many other things. Gender re-assignment is a pretty big deal, not to be undertaken lightly. How is a person less than 18 going to pay for it anyway? If their parents/guardians are willing to go along with it, I suppose that would be a family decision, and not the minor's alone. In the present society, if a doctor is willing and capable, the parents consent, and someone (not the public) is willing to pay for it, there is nothing anyone else can do or say to stop it.
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Rev paul
I agree with you John children do not have the right to choose to be transgender
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Ken Dixon
I understand the point you're trying to make, but no one chooses to be transgender. You either are or you aren't. Saying that some children "grow out of it" only muddies the water and makes it more difficult for people to accept that a great many do not. Transgender isn't a choice or a behavior. The straw man argument that a man can access women's facilities by saying he "feels like a woman today" also mischaracterizes the condition. Being transgender is not transitory, and it's not a self-diagnosis made on the spur of the moment.
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Rev paul
Your right Linda
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Ramel
I think to settle the argument we should get rid of all the women's and men logos and signs just use Penis or Vagina which ever you have is which room you use!
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Herb
We have EQUAL and FAIR treatment where everyone is given open access to the bathroom pertaining to the biological sex. Gender is a BS concept in general. We all have masculine and feminine aspects to our being. If someone chooses to identify more as a woman than a man, that's fine, but if you have a penis, you use the Men's room. Simple as that. 99.7% of the population will not bow and cow-tow to 0.3% and give them SPECIAL BENEFITS and PRIVILEGES. They already have EQUAL rights, but they want MORE.
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Shilo
I'm not a psychologist, but I've worked with kids of various ages to have learned 2 things; One, Kids look to adults for boundaries, and stability to learn about their own convictions, whether through disagreeing, or agreeing with the boundaries, and need to have a safety net to bounce off of, and try to push against their boundaries, as youth often do, without adults caving in to their demands.
The time of Youth is when they discover who they are, and who they are not. There is nothing wrong with what they discover, but in my opinion, they shouldn't be allowed to change constitional laws that affects the world, or change themselves until they are of age of accountability.
Too many kids do things to for various reasons, hormones, trends, and to get attention.
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ROGER GILBERT
Why not construct bathrooms that are totally enclosed like a small room so anyone can use them and lock the door! It's a no brainer...public restrooms have always been full of perverts anyway,,so that's the solution!
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Rev paul
We have those here where I live they are called unisex bathrooms
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Minister Caro
Children are more aware of themselves than we give them credit for being. If they are transgender and need urgent resources for transitioning, they will know. Ignoring this call for help is much more dangerous than giving the child agency to make this choice, as trans suicide rates are substantially higher than those of their cisgender counterparts. As for bathrooms, trans people NEED to have access to the bathroom that fits their expression/desire, for their own safety purposes. Besides, straight men have been caught soliciting sex in public restrooms time and time again, meaning trans people do not lay claim to this "predatory" nature the right attempts to portray. Trans health and welfare should be a pressing priority, and giving these individuals rights (some of which cisgender people take for granted) is essential in this process.
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Frank Iuro (@fobra7)
There are more instances of Republican lawmakers behaving inappropriately in restrooms than transgendered individuals - Let's Ban THEM from using restrooms and locker rooms. There are THOUSANDS of cases of Catholic Priests molesting children - Let's Ban THEM!! The Transgender Bathroom "Problem" is merely a smokescreen to divert the attention of the American people from the REAL crimes being committed by crooked businesses and elected officials. There are laws on the books that address ANY of the behaviors that the "Holier-than-thou" fear from transgender individuals. But it is so easy to point the finger and say "THERE'S where all of our problems lie" so nobody will look in YOUR direction.
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Charles Done
The issue of transgender is one of control and not an issue of responsibility to the common good of the people . As a rapist is about power not sex. I see our president as an individual about the power he can wield in his office. The mandatory insurance requirement, his want to appoint a liberal in the Supreme Court and now this transgender issue is all about his agendas. I for one am still not convinced that he was born in the US or educated here. I think that his legacy will be one of hoodwinking the public with his charismatic speaking and his imitation charm. His leadership has brought hardship to many people in this country and continues to desecrate the values of this nation.
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Brother John
Although I could have posted this reply to many comments, chdone, the POTUS does not run the U.S. or make the laws. He (so far all He) reads the teleprompter (and yes, Obama presents himself better than most) and does the bidding of those who actually run the corporation known affectionately as "the country". Ridiculous smokescreens like this one (transgender) and the theatre of the (s)elections draw the attention of many minds away from the reality of what's going on behind the curtain (aka the smokescreen of illusion/delusion)
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John Owens
Astute observations, Bro John
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Minister Francis
Excellent article. The article presents both sides of the issue. Excellent discussion questions in the Takeaways.
But a terrible title! (Choosing this title, it's obvious that the author tips his/her hand on the issue.) The jury will long be out on whether the President "took a stand" FOR transgender youth or merely aggravated their confusion. Did his directive accomplish anything more than to merely exacerbate the conflict?
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Restrepo
Obama obviously thinks he's standing up for them. What would you title the article?
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Minister Francis
Thanks for replying, Richard.
Yes, the President obviously thinks that. But much has been done thinking we're sticking up for various people groups that eventually resulted in their harm, not their help. I'm not suggestion that's the case here, but many believe it to be.
More importantly, I think the title is poor because the President's action is the focal point of the title, his action is not the focal point of the article. That act is merely a tangent to the main idea of the complexities (and possible confusion) of transgender issues among our youth.
As for a better title, maybe this: "No Easy Answers: Complexities of Transgenderism Among the Young." That would have gotten more respondents focused on the excellent takeaway questions and less on the explosiveness of the political issue.
Regardless, an excellent article with great takeaways.
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king Bob
I think its ridiculous to be having such an argument about transgenders and bathrooms. Its 2016 for goodness sake not the dark ages!! If a man goes through trnas to become a woman, theyre a woman and vice versa. I think theres a heck of a lot more to be concerned about in this world!!
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willow
I used to be a strong advocate for trans kids. After all figuring all these things before puberty would save a lot of miseries and griefs down the road, and I do not wish anyone the turmoil of having to go through this type of sexual identity crisis when they are in college or starting out in life on their own when they have to deal with a lot of other difficult stuff like academics and career.
Also I do not think it is a good idea for anyone to be transitioning later in life. It would take whole a lot of unlearning (most importantly, unlearning male privilege) and on the medical side undoing whole a lot of masculinization. There needs to be a cut off point, maybe around age 25.
But now I have a mixed feeling about this subject of early transition. In most diseases and medical conditions, early detection and early treatment is the best idea. But now there is absolutely NO OBJECTIVE diagnostic criteria for determining who is transsexual (yikes, another newly un-PC word that is forbidden!) -- I mean, suffers from Gender Dysphoria. The only determiner is the subjective and vague sense of what is rather unhelpfully described as "gender" "identity". Gender is a sociological word, not a biological or medical word. As for identity, no one can "self-identify" as anything; indeed, the whole notion of self-identity is a B.S. because identity cannot exist in a vacuum, but rather exists solely in the context of society. Identity is ascribed to a person always by an external factor: family-of-origin, religious community, social affiliation and standing, socioeconomic factors, nationality, and so on. If we can all self-identify ourselves out of oppression, the life would be much easier. Imagine if we let all the 11 million (?) undocumented immigrants self-identify as U.S. citizens. Comprehensive immigration reform is done overnight. Imagine if we let anyone self-identify as a billionaire and have them go to bank and demand a home loan? The reality is that identity is often a burden placed upon the oppressed people from which they cannot free themselves.
Had the medical community spent the last half a century engaging in a serious and honest research to find out the causes of transsexuality then there would have been a scientific method to diagnose who is legit and who isn't. But these days all this became politicized and all the institutions are run by elite trans activists (the majority of them being white former-men) that wants to eliminate all "gatekeeping". Yet it was this very gatekeeping that allowed legitimate trans people to go quietly on with their lives for many decades, even back in the 1960s and 70s while dissuading those who were transitioning for wrong reasons (who would definitely be worse off) and preventing criminals from exploiting what they see as a loophole to gain access to women's spaces (Google "Christopher Hambrook"). Certainly, gatekeeping was both sexist and homophobic -- as critiqued by many radical feminists of the time -- and I do not think we should resurrect exactly the same gatekeeping system, but the current system of "no questions asked, anything goes" has led to a major political backlash not only against trans folks but against LGB people as well (and perhaps contributing in no small part to support for Donald Trump). So there needs to be an improved diagnostic and gatekeeping structure, as well as some serious medical research to find cure and prevention (transitioning was purely a palliative measure, I doubt that Dr. Harry Benjamin saw it as a permanent solution that would go on well into the 21st century).
The Religious Right is latching onto this as the lifeline to revive its own fading political clout, after being forced to concede on the gay marriage front and facing the specter of a secularizing America, even in Red States. While I believe both Barack Obama and Lorretta Lynch are doing stellar jobs in the last couple of years, on this topic I feel they made some serious tactical miscalculations and are doing a disservice.
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Tara Grimmer
"... But now there is absolutely NO OBJECTIVE diagnostic criteria for determining who is transsexual..."
You are incorrect about that. There are rigorous diagnostic standards for the treatment of transgender people, especially among the young. As for the suggestion of the medical community searching for a way to "cure" a person's gender identity, I find that view appallingly backward. So, you're saying if a person's SELF doesn't align with the configuration of their genitals, you see the obvious solution as finding away to alter the person's very sense of self? Even if it were possible to reconfigure a person's brain into that of a completely different person, that would be a much more radical thing to do to a person than GRS and/or hormone therapy, especially given that it would be a wholly involuntary thing to impose in nearly every case.
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Sharon Therkildsen
I guess I am old enough to remember when school lavatories were used by both sexes because there was only one bathroom that adjoined the classroom. We were not hung up about who used which bathroom. I have never been in anyone's home where the bathrooms were labeled male and female. As a society, we are overly focused on a natural and normal need to "go". Use the bathroom you want and if you are a person with a penis, put the seat down when you finish. And whatever gender you claim as yours, remember to wash your hands.
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Rev paul
Yes I remember we shared the bathroom regardless of sex we had no problems with this
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Jeff Smith
Well, one this many people forget, is that federal laws were changed to include LGBT in the federal protection years ago. Or the fact that the guidelines Obama put out talks about opening single occupant gender neutral restrooms to ANY AND ALL STUDENTS. That way, if a student feels "uncomfortable" with a transgender student using the restroom, they have an option to use a different restroom.
But when you consider our country is over sexualized, perhaps this can be a start of getting rid of the old fashioned idea that the sexes are so different.
After all, though a little off topic, in schools we tell girls to "cover up" as to not distract boys, because it is easier to tell a girl to change clothes that to teach a boy respect for women.
Plus, by the ages this could remotely matter in anyway shape or form, most students have had some level of sex-ed, I mean my first sex-ed class was in the fifth grade
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Ken Dixon
"After all, though a little off topic, in schools we tell girls to “cover up” as to not distract boys, because it is easier to tell a girl to change clothes that to teach a boy respect for women."
Here's a very good essay on that point:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/5/19/1528469/-Dear-creepy-heterosexual-men-guarding-our-bathrooms
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king Bob
This is one of the many examples of why America is going to pieces. Those of you crying foul of those transgender folks should be ashamed of yourselves. Youre a disgrace to your faith and should renounce your membership of the church.
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john
Well I've read enough, I'm tired of hearing from all you bible readers who only take from the book that appeals to you and your religion. If you people are going to live by the book then do so by the WHOLE BOOK. In Mathew and Mark it says not to judge your fellow man or you will be judge harsher by your God himself at your judgement. Its sad you holly rollers can't treat your fellow man or woman with respect because of a choice they have selected for themselves just because it doesn't agree with you. What the hell makes you so prefect. I just showed that you yourselves don't follow ALL of Gods words. Back off and let people alone, this world sucks enough already.
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Ken Dixon
My philosophy is that if you're using the Bible as a weapon, you're doing things wrong.
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Brother John
I'm not sure how long you've been involved with the ULC, john, but the hard core Christian fundamentalists haven't been as thunderously righteous on this thread as on some others. It's possible that they may have been either shamed or educated into submission.
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john
I agree Ken and believe me no way will I use it as a weapon. I'm just tired of hearing the hate.
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Tara Grimmer
I think it's pretty irresponsible for ULC to uncritically repeat the myth that there's reason to fear that trans bathroom access will lead to predators exploiting it. We've had such trans bathroom access laws in multiple states and even more municipalities for years now (over 20, in the case of my home state) and there have been ZERO such incidents which can be credibly linked to trans bathroom access. Every "news story" you've seen spread around on social media has either been an outright hoax story or debunked as being completely unrelated to trans bathroom access. Yes, the one you're thinking of too. Go to Snopes before even trying to bring it up.
I think the above story should include a bold clarification that these fears are COMPLETELY unfounded based on the fact of how non-disruptive transgender bathroom access laws have been in every part of the country where they have already been in place.
So far, the only disruptions in Target have been from anti-LGBT bigots who have been trying to rile people up against their policies.
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Brother John
I'd like to think that the articles posted aren't necessarily promoting the ULC's principles, but rather to encourage discussion, Tara.
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Rev. Anne
I'm female. I'm also gay, but not transgender - I love being a girl. I am fine with anyone using whichever washroom they feel comfortable in. If the ladies is full and I'm in a hurry I pop into the mens.
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Angelina
I'm not really sure why a transgender person would pose any threat in a bathroom. Unless you are looking inside the stalls, how would you know, why would you care, and what difference does it make?
Just because a person is transgendered, doesn't make them a predator. Predators will do what they do no matter what the bathroom says on the door. If a trans person wants to dress, live and be a woman, why make them uncomfortable by forcing them to go into a men's room.
I have met many children at very young ages that already know they don't identify with the gender they were born with. I have taught preschool through 8th grade and kids KNOW! Let them be who they want to be. If it bothers everyone so much, make individual stalls with doors. Personally that seems more scary to me! Anyone could force themselves into a stall with anyone else.
Let kids be who they are and leave them alone! Let them be who they are, who makes them happy. As long as they are happy, healthy and productive it should be enough!
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Richard
It is not about "Bathroom Rights" at all and you know it.
Just like it was NEVER ABOUT WATER FOUNTAINS!
Bigotry wrapped in religion is cowardice.
I thought the church was supposed to be inclusive. "Everyone is welcome..."
When did Jesus say "I love you... unless you're LGBT!"
If you think that and are so obsessed with what someone else is doing with their genitals, maybe you don't worship anything but your own ego and sense of superiority.
You're also ignoring Matthew 7 - Judge. That makes you a cowardly hypocrite.
Love is so hard to find. Why does it matter to you how someone else expresses it?
If it is consentual and between responsible adults (18+) it shouldn't matter to ANYONE ELSE!!!
You should be ashamed of yourselves if you think otherwise
That is all I have to say.
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A' Yo
AMEN!!!
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Brother John
Thank you for your input, Richard. Sometimes the stench of judgemental hypocrisy is so strong here I can actually smell it.
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Rhonda
It has been interesting...disturbing and often entertaining reading responses on this hot topic. There will never be total agreement on how it should be handled and if there were a 100% solution...whos opinion would work? The original question about this topic seems to have been overlooked. This was about Obama ordering all schools to allow young people to use whichever restroom they want to depending on which sex they identify with on that particular day. First of all he does not have the authority or right to make such a demand...second of all ...what schools do should be mandated by the state or even better the district in which it is in. The federal government often oversteps their authority and this is an example of Obama wanting to leave a legacy. Its out of his scope of job description. The other topic in question is if teens ...or individuals younger are capable of making gender choice. There is no possible answer to that question. Schools nor government have the right to allow those decisions. The parents and child need to work this topic out. Are parents always right...no ...are kids capable of knowing what gender they identify with??? Perhaps ...some are. Many are not. I do know this...If I were in a restroom or a locker room when I was a youth and a boy came in..I would be embarrassed and mortified. As a married woman...I still like my privacy during those times...and no I'm not a prude...its my choice and preference. So what about the rights of the people who feel as I do...both young and not so young? Everyone seems so concerned about a very small minority of people and how they fee...what about others like myself...who has homosexual and transgender family and friends. If I had a child in a school that implemented this standard...I would home school. Not out of fear but out of having my rights and thoughts disregarded. Schools...government ...or being politically correct can not and should not dictate or shame others into accepting their views. The argument of having a non gendered room has already been done in some places...and other businesses ect. may not be able to afford the changes...its not just a change of words on a door ...I prefer to not smell listen to men urinating in a urinal. But I too digress...we are talking about hormonal, reactionary and often out of control teens. I'm not a hater or right winger...I am an individual and my rights should be heard in this without being called names.
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Restrepo
Convenient that Obama told only the PUBLIC schools to unlock bathrooms, while his daughters go to a PRIVATE school. What about equality??
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Michael
Seems to me that an awful lot of people are focused too much on what's between the legs and not enough on what's between the ears. But if you must --
Let's say I'm a transgender female. I go to the women's rest room where there are stalls. I do my business in a stall. No problem.
Now, let's say I'm a transgender male. I go to the men's rest room where I have choice of a stall or a urinal. If I choose the stall, no problem for anyone. If I choose the urinal, that's my business. If you are checking me out, then I guess it's you who have the problem.
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Brother John
That doesn't solve the problem for some here though, Farnick. They're convinced that most LGBT folks are sexual perverts who will commit the most heinous sexual crimes before dying and going to hell.
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Ken Dixon
As a transgender person, I'm sometimes tempted to challenge bigots to describe me and my "lifestyle" as they imagine it to be. No one would even come close.
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A druid
A good deal of this discussion seems to hinge upon Dianne Sawyers' misidentification of the transvestite Jenner as transsexual. Just sayin'.
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Pastor Pete
I have never seen so many comments, and so much hatred on one topic on this site before. And all on the subject of bathrooms. Extraordinary. Perspective?
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Galen M. Ross
Ok, here's one for all of you to consider, Jesus said, "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and, unto God what is Gods." According to the Civil Rights Act discrimination against sex is against the law, Federal Law, schools receive their money from the FEDERAL government, if they don't follow FEDERAL law they lose that money, less books, less teachers, less education. Federal law mandates that schools accommodate Transgender students, the fact is by the statement from Jesus so does God.
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Rev. Janet
This is so sad to me ! As Christians we are not suppose to judge ! How do you know what it feels like to live in the wrong body ? Shame on all of the hypocritical people on here ! It's not your right to decide how a person should live ! Go mind your own issues !!
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Rev paul
You got that right rev janet
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Brother John
It seems as though some of the CHRISTians posting here are more interested in cherry picking passages/laws from the OT (written for Jews, and I assume by Jews) than they are promoting the teachings of their supposed Saviour, Rev. Janet. Some of them do a fantastic job of driving people away from the Christianity they're promoting and the Bible they're quoting.
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John Owens
But the mantra from the left is usually something to the effect of, " We can't judge them all by the actions of a few." "Few" being a relative term, of course. In spite of being preached at not to judge, we all know we all have to make judgments every day about everything. The key is to judge fairly and impartially. Very difficult for everyone.
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Brother John
I find it amusing when labels such as "left/right", "conservative/liberal", and "Republican/Democrat" are tossed about, John, especially when they are used disparagingly (not that you've done so here). Can you provide a concise definition of "left" and "right" for us?
Regarding your last statement……. I find those whose judgement is based on religious dogma, rather than "fairly and impartially", particularly offensive, and often bigoted and ignorant.
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John Owens
Bro John, while you want to classify people as bigoted and ignorant OR intellectual and enlightened, you are showing bigotry and willful ignorance in making everyone out to be one- or two-dimensional. I classify people as left and right, which is not nearly so demeaning, and more truthful and realistic. It must be wonderful to feel so lofty and superior as your posts would suggest, but I think you are overcompensating somehow. For the purposes of THIS particular blog, I would classify "left" as you and those with whom you agree and "right" as anyone else. Having said that, I would say there are ignorant and bigoted people who agree with both you and me.
You may have come to your views by much thought and contemplation and others may share them just because they are following a trend or listening to NPR, and have really given them no thought but have absorbed them by osmosis, without question and deductive reason. That would mean they are ignorant even though they share the view of someone contemplative.
You see, we come to conclusions either based on input or thought. If they are ONLY based on input then they may be correct, but basically ignorant and naïve. If they are based on deductive logic AND input, they may or may not be correct, but they are no longer WILLFULLY ignorant. The problem comes from incomplete input. There is a whole galaxy of things none of us knows and only a few things each of us knows, and our knowledge is incomplete. We are unable and unwilling to seek knowledge for its own sake, and loathe to question what we think we know.
By we, I mean you, I, and everyone else. The fear of God is the very first step in wisdom.
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Brother John
What you've posted is your opinion and you're entitled to it, John. But may I remind you that you're the one who's been chastised numerous times for your juvenile behaviour and also compared to our "mary" on more than one occasion.
What conclusion does that input give you?
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John Owens
That a lot of people here have absorbed their thought processes and behavior patterns from the same place, and while some of them try to pretend to be thinkers, very few are. This is evidenced by the common vocabularies used.
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Brother John
I spent a few hours yesterday and this morning exploring alternative (mostly focusing on rational thought and atheism) forums to this one and found all of them devoid of dogmatic bible babble, bigotry and hate. As there's only so many hours in my day to devote to spiritual discussion, I'll be participating on a few of them into the future, rather than here.
John Owens said, "There is a whole galaxy of things none of us knows and only a few things each of us knows, and our knowledge is incomplete. We are unable and unwilling to seek knowledge for its own sake, and loathe to question what we think we know. By we, I mean you, I, and everyone else. The fear of God is the very first step in wisdom."
I'm not one of the people you've described, John. I am both willing and able to seek knowledge for it's own sake and have been doing so for decades. I'm not working on my thesis or writing a book. I'm doing it because I have a rational and curious mind which I'm using as best I can. I'm quite content to accept that I don't know rather than filling in any voids with supernatural beliefs and religious dogma. Believing without evidence or rational thought is the solution for those who "loathe to question what we think we know".
Your statement the "the fear of God is the very first step in wisdom" exemplifies the above. My personal belief is that there are dimensions beyond the three that constrain our human reality. Watching Dr. Carl Sagan's "flatlander" explanation of the fourth dimension (and beyond) was/and still is, a profound experience for me. The alternatives of supernatural deities, such as the God of the Bible/Jesus/the Holy Ghost indicates weakness and gullibility. It's the antithesis of the courage and tenacity needed to seek the truth, no matter how unpleasant or unsettling it may be.
I don't fear witches, voodoo spells, monsters under my bed, my inevitable death, and certainly not God. Fear is the basis for many beliefs, including Christianity, which has nothing to do with wisdom in my life. It's been the most effective way to control the minds of the masses for century after century. Both churches and despotic leaders have used it to great effect, and continue to do so as evidenced by the widespread fear of Muslims, terrorism and the like. Contrary to your statement, abolishing fear and developing the courage to find and face the truth is one of the requirements for wisdom.
And the things that we fear are a weapon to be held against us. Ian Rush
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. Plato
The only thing we have to fear is fear itself. Franklin D. Roosevelt
What is a fear of living? It's being preeminently afraid of dying. It is not doing what you came here to do, out of timidity and spinelessness. The antidote is to take full responsibility for yourself - for the time you take up and the space you occupy. If you don't know what you're here to do, then just do some good. Maya Angelou
“I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.” ― Frank Herbert, Dune
“I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear.” ― Nelson Mandela
“What do you fear, lady?" [Aragorn] asked. "A cage," [Éowyn] said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.” ― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
Carry on bravely. I'll be seeking truth, enlightenment and spirituality elsewhere.
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John Owens
[Certainly one may ignore evidence of design behind the laws that govern the universe, and behind the universe itself. But in the face of so much evidence, it takes greater "faith" to believe in a godless universe than to follow the evidence to its logical conclusion: the existence of a Creator God who set in place His laws for a purpose. Why would people exercise so much "faith" to ignore the evidence right in front of their eyes? Even some atheists and agnostics admit that by choosing to remain ignorant, they can continue living their lives without God, denying the consequences.Aldous Huxley, the famous English author, expressed this perspective well: "Most ignorance is vincible ignorance. We don't know because we don't want to know. It is our will that decides how and upon what subjects we shall use our intelligence. Those who detect no meaning in the world generally do so because, for one reason or another, it suits their books that the world should be meaningless" ] (This quoted from 7 proofs of God's Existence)
It is at LEAST as irrational to fear belief in God, as it is to believe in God. Michio Kaku is a real thinker, and HE doesn't dismiss God. Also, when you read, "fear of God," it is not talking about George Castanza-style, hand-wringing, panic-attack fear. It is a respect for the things God has and can do, and a desire not to displease him. There can be no love or respect without some kind of fear--fear of hurting someone, fear of losing their trust, fear of letting them down. You quoted Plato. Re-read that quote. Just saying. If you are a real thinker, don't FEAR thinking about how: There can be Creation without a Creator (SCIENCE has determined that there was a time when nothing existed), Law without a Lawgiver (the laws of physics, etc.), Intelligent Design without a Designer (EVERYTHING has a design, and most living creatures show a common designer), Life without a Life-Giver (Life doesn't come from inert objects, but only FROM life).
"Even under highly favorable conditions of a laboratory, these soups have failed to produce anything remotely resembling life. One problem is that they produce only a random distribution of left- and right-handed pre-biotic molecules… Life chemistry demands that all the molecules be either right- or left-handed. With all our learning and technology we cannot even come close to bringing life together in the lab" (The Creator and the Cosmos, Ross, 1993, p. 148).
It takes more ignorant faith to believe there is NO God, than to accept the evidence that there IS. The fear of belief in God comes from the desire to live without guilt for thoughts and behaviors of which we know He would not approve. In some cases it is fear of admitting we were wrong in not believing, wrong to believe the people we have believed. TOTALLY irrational, all emotional.
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Nicole Carroll
Seriously, I can't believe this is an issue with all that is going on in the world right now. I care more abouts vets coming home without arms, and legs and not getting the support they need. About older vets that are forgotten. Innocent people getting shot on the streets, or movie theaters or schools. Who cares about where someone needs to relieve themselves. My God people, who are you to judge or analyze others? Walk in their shoes.....
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John Clark
An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life: A fight is going on inside me, he said to the boy. It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil - he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego. The other is good - he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. This same fight is going on inside you - and inside every other person, too. The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, which wolf will win? The old Cherokee simply replied, the one you feed.
I am happy to share a restroom with a transsexual, as never heard of a transsexual exposing them shelf in a restroom but how many men expose them shelf to other men in the same situation. Just read a newspaper.
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Jason Melkus
As trangenders have been using the restroom that matches their outward appearance for ages, if the person going into the womens room looks like they should be using it and is not obviously a guy in drag, whatever. If their appearance is that "accurate" that I can't tell, then the likelihood that they are a creeper is astronomical. i'm more concerned with the 3000 reports per year of pedophile priests and the big, huge nothing that is being done about the 30% of college freshmen who are sexually assaulted every year.
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Minister Francis
An injudicious irony: Believing that judgmental attitudes in this discussion come from only one side.
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DJ
We are not here to judge others. When nature calls, it has no gender. There are more important issues facing the planet right now. Let us be kind to all, & as we accept each other, we make the planet a better place.
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JD Day
Once again, I am amazed/saddened/joyful and unbelieving. This 'thread' of discussion has the same type of disbelief, prejudice and anger I would expect to see on a Conservative Rant page. Then there are the 'jewels' that give me hope for the human race. The kind caring accepting folk that make our lives bearable. All on the ULC page, "We are all children of the same universe".
Folks, humans have been using the bathroom they feel most comfortable in for centuries. Why is this now an issue? What are we being distracted from? There is a presidential election in the near future, American Veterans are committing suicide at an unprecedented rate, many are homeless and on welfare/food stamps, our country's infrastructure is crumbling while Wall Street lines its pockets with untaxed wealth hidden in offshore accounts, our political process has been hijacked by money and influence, our young men and women are dying in a war that has no end in sight and our military budget is so large it consumes approximately half of the national budget.
...and America is arguing over where someone can pee? Doesn't anyone else see what is happening? Obfuscation is the word, I believe. Webster's defines it: to be evasive, unclear, or confusing. To me this is a 1 on a scale of 1-10 as a subject to discuss before all the other problems I've listed (and the ones I haven't).
May we all co-exist in peace and strive to be better than we were yesterday.
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Kimberly
Kimberly
fearmongering is simply that, fearmongering. Everyone of us should be intelligent enough to realize that we should be discerning in our evaluations and judgements and truly research an issue for ourselves, before coming to any conclusions on the matter. Only believe half of what you see, and nothing of what you hear… Comes to mind.
When it comes to what we should be afraid of, we should not make even make an issue of fear, unless we have a legitamit reason to. And only then, should we apply the level of caution to exercise given the nature and environment in which that threat exisits in each of our daily lives. What one person fears isnt going to neccessarily be the same fear, or even the same level of fear as the next.
Its all about common sence for your daily life. However, we should all exercise caution, and utilize discernment towards possible threats to our safety. As a woman, especially a woman alone, being raped is always going to be something we should be subconciously and even consciously aware could very well happen at any time. It doesnt matter if your a white male, a black one, a brown one, or a purple people eater; if your a male, and im somewhere bymyself, (depending on how populated the area im in is) you better believe im going to have my eye on you as suspious. Its something that should be common sense for every woman to do, regardless of race, or "gender identity".
As a transgender using the bathroom… Do your thing as youhave been doing since you reidentified. It was never an issue until there was a motion for a law on it. The true issue with the bathroom use isnt about transgenders. The caution needed hear is with those who will use it as a scapegoat to gain entry. The caution needed here is for those high school boys that “feel” like a woman today, and decide to use the girls bathroom, or shower with the girls in the locker room, or the guy out in public, who may or may not be a pedophile, or rapist, or pervert, who follows your daughter into the bathroom, or as a woman, follows me into the batroom.
Do i now have to be subjected to heightened fear of being raped, buy what looks like some guy, who feels like a woman today. How do i know if he/she is really who they are touting to be? Do you have a daughter, sister, niece, mother, aunt, etc,? When they go to use the restroom, and some person who looks like a guy walks in behind her, will that possible fear flash into consciousness if not but for a split second? It will for me.
As a mother of a teenage daughter, that fear, or concern is definately going to be amplified. My daughter came home from school about a week ago saying how one of the boys followed her into the bathroom. She simply turned around and walked out, as she felt very uneasy and uncomfortable in that situation.
So by forcing schools to allow students to use whatever restroom they feel comfortable with, because of equality or whatever, you simultaneously creating an added burden for the girls. What about how they feel? Is their right to privacy, and right to peace of mind knowing that they are "safe" from the pressure of boys acceptable to be disposed of? They are now subject to doubt the intentions of any boy entering, now subject to the mental stress of "what if some boy comes in while im changing my tampon", ( we all know how well the locks on high school bathroom stall doors work), or while shes using the restroom period. Do we find acceptable to have a girl be physically uncofortable because she decided not to use the restoom because some boy walked in behind her and it made her uncomfortable, and has to get to class cause the bell just rang so she has to forego whatever it was (#1, #2, or utility changing) because of equality for bathroom use?
By being politically correct, we are making it easier for abuses to occur, and heightening stress and fear in an already pressured and stressed mass of our population; our youth... Our future
Sorry so long
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Christopher Holloway
Just to share. There is a separation of church and state and one for federal Government and state government as well. The states have the authority to not follow a law that has been made at the federal level if they choose. Schools are ran by the state and NOT by the white house. Religion is between the chosen god(ess) and mankind and not by the government and us. The other end of this is respect and due process. We need to respect others even if we don't agree with them. This means we should try to come to a middle ground if possible.
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John Owens
The first point is a very good point--one that seems to be forgotten by statists and humanists, leftists and socialists. The second is also good, but too many want to put the line designating the middle as being all the way to one side. Being REASONABLE, enlightened, compassionate means doing everything the OTHER side's way.
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Pastor Pete
And all this about bathrooms. Not justice or compassion or perhaps living in harmony. Many of the views expressed here by clearly right wing Christians are absolutely odious to me, but I have to tolerate them, because I try to follow the teachings of Jesus, hate tha sin but not the sinner, you know? If you want to dictate to people go into the industrial military complex, those guys are crapping on the world on a daily basis, you'd love it
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John Owens
Um, A) there is no such thing as a left-wing Christian. B) people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones
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Pastor Pete
Um, no idea what you're saying here old boy, Jesus plainly had a socialist message, unless as a non-theist Christian I'm missing something? Please elucidate. Plus "glass houses"? Do tell...
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John Owens
As to the first part, you said, "right-wing Christians are odious to you". I said, "there is no such think as a left-wing Christian." What's difficult to understand about that? Jesus' message was in no way socialist. You're omitting the parable of the talents, the sower, he that does not work should not eat, let every man work, etc. In the Prodigal Son, the father in the story was wealthy. A socialist God would have taken the wealth from the wealthy man, and given it all away to the neighbors. THEN, you say you are a "non-theist" Christian. That's a contradiction in terms. You can't call yourself a Christian, and then say you don't believe in God, ergo, there is no such thing as a left-wing Christian, because left-wing means no morality, no God, no right, no wrong, just trends. That is contrary to Christ.
As for the second part, you said, "Many of the views...are particularly odious...but I have to tolerate them..." Then said basically that right-wing Christians would love crapping on the world. Right-wingers are not tearing the world apart and ripping the social fabric of society. That would be the LEFT. Justify it any way you like, that is what is being done, at the HANDS OF THE LEFT. So, you live in a glass house, but enjoy throwing stones.-
Pastor Pete
Nope, suggest you read the teachings of the man try and understand his message without the fairy stories, and personally I am neither right nor left wing, as I said earlier, politics is the entertainment division of the military industrial complex, explain to me however how a Christian could possibly own a gun? In the name of a man of peace? How a Christian could stand by and watch such hatred and injustice and not feel sorrow and revulsion? How are left wing people ripping up the planet? Looks like big business is managing that... Who put iPhones in the hands of the world's children? Business. Who stands to benefit most from disease and war? Business And I'll call myself anything I like, thank you very much, away from your narrow definitions. And you're right, no morality, I have ethics, I believe that being good and kind and tolerant is the right thing to do, not because I expect either punishment or reward, but because I think it's the right thing to do. I don't follow your rule book, please keep it to yourself. The end results of capitalism and communism would in both cases bring about a living hell that no sane person would wish to live in. I'm suggesting the radical alternative of loving thy neighbour as thyself, turning the other cheek, all that old fashioned stuff, eh? Hope that clarifies things, have a good day
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Pastor Pete
Sorry, one other thing, the Archbishop of Canterbury? Look it up, then tell me there are no left wing Christians.
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John Owens
Last thing first-- Archbishop of Canterbury and the Pope, for that matter, are perfect examples of why I say there are no left-wing Christians. There are communists who call themselves Christians, There are men who call themselves women, but it doesn't make them women.
It is sort of ridiculous for you to recommend I read the teachings of Christ, although I'm sure you do it with the best of intentions. I can assure you I am quite well-versed in the Scriptures.
You asked how a Christian could possibly own a gun. Christ, at the last supper, told His disciples to sell their garment and buy a sword. I took His advice. He also said that if His kingdom was of that age, that His servants would fight. He is also coming back as a Conqueror, and blood will run up to a horse's bridle in the Valley of Hinnom. You think of Him as being like Ghandi, but He will rule the nations with a rod of iron. As to carrying a gun, the thorn is always ready to defend the rose, yet it is at peace and seeks no challenge. If someone you don't know tries to carjack you or breaks into your home to do you harm, you can quote all the Jesus and Ghandi you want to-- I'll shoot them and pray for their forgiveness in the Judgment.
I will not harm a person who does not try to harm me or someone else when I am present. Solomon said, don't start trouble with someone who is not doing anything to you. Prov 3: 13 I think. I don't care who carries a weapon. I have been at meetings with hundreds of armed men, and never felt threatened. I am more threatened by distracted drivers who pull out in front of motorcycles. If gun-owners were violent, they would silence those who wish to take their guns. That is another discussion, though, but it bears remembering.Left wingers are ripping the planet by trying to remake human nature (which God also wants to do, but in a much different way) and making new laws which seek to remove rights our forefathers said were endowed to us by the Creator, and guaranteed us as citizens to have in this country. If you take from one, to give to another, that is not Godly, nor good, nor productive in the long run. In fact, it is theft. Christ never taught that theft was good. No socialist Christians. You cannot believe that taking the goods of one person who has earned them, and giving them to another who has not is good. That is socialism. That is left wing.
I agree with love thy neighbor. That means love the conservative and the liberal, the fat and the skinny, the intelligent and the less than intelligent, black, white, yellow, brown, green, Baptist, Methodist, Holiness, Catholic, Episcopal, Orthodox, Reform, Mennonite, atheist, agnostic, Taoist, Shintoist. All of them. I love my wife. We disagree sometimes. We argue. Not much. Once in a rare while. I have neighbors. We don't argue. We don't bother one another. We don't threaten one another. We don't keep one another up with loud parties or revving loud engines. I don't try to meddle in their affairs and they don't meddle in mine. If people talk, they will argue. When one tries to force their views on others, they will clash. This is what is happening.
This is another way the left is ripping society. I was not discriminating, not bullying, not threatening, and yet, people are trying to change my way of life without listening to or considering me or people similar to me. It is a lack of respect, and a lack of understanding. The left wants to tell us how to raise our children, what they shall be taught is normal, but not normal for us. To quote Shakespeare, "Prick us. Do we not bleed? Wrong us. Shall we not avenge?" If the left keeps pushing more and more change, the right will push back, and, perhaps if the right is as ignorant and uncivilized as the left thinks, the right will massacre the left. That is not a threat, just a legitimate consideration. Maybe that is why the left wants to use the government to take the weapons we bought with our own money. Another theft of property. Jesus did not promote theft.
I don't think you and I are polar opposites, Pete. Just seeing things from a different angle.
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Rev paul
There are no right or left wing christians
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Ralph J Miller
Every body's missing the point here.this is more about politics&and the upcoming election.it's about votes.while we all argue on who gets to use which bathroom our government is turning aways from Gods laws.the problem is we no longer fear God's wrath.we have made him a myth.so now it's ok to sin.
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Rev paul
Amen rj
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John Clark
no longer fear God’s wrath, why do we think Gods always about to punish us. If you FEAR Gods Wrath should it not be because you judge other people. Why is it a sin to feel your born in the wrong body.
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John Owens
Because it's a sin to be an idiot.
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Rev paul
Because God does not condone homosexuals
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John Clark
Better an idiot then a biased fool like you
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John Owens
It is not BIASED to know it is stupid to think you were born in the wrong body. It is stupid, wrong, ignorant. A lot of people wish they were different. Taller, shorter, bigger boobs, darker skin, lighter skin, etc. To convince oneself that they are born in the wrong body is patent insanity.
You sir, are the biased one, either deluded or deluding yourself. I am the sane, rational one. That is not a judgment as in condemnation. That is a judgment as in observation. We are supposed to make those judgments. You judged me a biased fool, but you don't want me to judge you an idiot for believing this nonsense.
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Shari Early
Ok the issue at hand....transgender children. If my child have of come to me and said I think I'm a boy or girl instead of what they were born I would have been there for them but until they were legally an adult and mature enough to deal with their decision they would remain growing up the gender they were born. Being an open parent and discussing this with a child would stop a lot of the issues surrounding these children. Even if I didn't agree with it once they turned 18 they are responsible for their decisions and not the parents. As far as the bathroom issue goes there have been transgender, gay, perverted, you name it in the bathrooms with all of us but as a normal parent my children were taught to be aware of their surroundings and who else was around. If there was someone that made them uncomfortable they waited till they left. Once this became a media circus and people started making unnecessary demands it opened the door for anyone to walk in without being questioned. Just take out the main bathroom door and install floor to ceiling doors and walls...the equivalent to indoor porta potties, problem solved. It's all being blown out of proportion and children are no longer being raised anymore they are given their way because parents don't want to tell their precious baby no. Sad to see an entire generation of PC correctness instead of teaching people how to have a backbone and deal with their problems. I was fat and bullied as a child and I think I came through it pretty well and am quite happy and I've seen a lot that were babied as children and given everything and they've turned into miserable adults. I have a gay stepson. I do not agree with his way of life but I still love him and will be there for him whenever he may need me and he knows it. I have no right to judge anyone's life and the best I can do is lead by example.
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Gallet Christ Sampu
Brothers and sisters , let me mention this for your opening mind: Of course , everyone should have equal opportunities at birth, but each individual is unique in all aspects of mind and body. Hence , a biologist cannot accept the most commonly quoted and misinterpreted statement in the American Declaration of Independence:'' We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal.... So walk with the words.
Let not walk in the way as the humanity it given but , let all walk in the way of truth prompting to the spirit of righteousness and love truth.
May God bless all of you.
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Rev. Brien
Wow, and yet I realize that I have to live on the same planet with what I am seeing here in this blog. Ok...roflmao...I have a solution to the great unsolvable argument, and since I have seen every worthless opinion for and against here, even with some color of dislike, I will offer this simple solution for all. I do this to create the peace that seems to elude all of you very intelligent people. I vote to outlaw all group bathrooms.Instead, they are to be converted to individual 1 person only unisex restrooms. Now if one of you so called intelligent people have any objection to this solution, I remind you that any suggestion or thought that you have put forth is far more ridiculous than a little inconvenient construction. NOW, GROW UP!
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John Owens
Well, as an adult, who is going to pay for these individual bathrooms you think are such a wonderful idea? I'm not saying they aren't, but who is supposed to pay for them, and why should THEY have to pay for them? A little inconvenient construction? Have you ever built anything? I mean, really? There is a very logical reason public restrooms are built the way they are, and they have been built that way for quite a long time. Why do we need to reinvent the wheel here? Or the spoon? And you want to pass ANOTHER law? That's the solution? And you counsel others to grow up.
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Rev. Brien
What? As an adult you would rather spend the next decade in a pointless argument? And EVERYONE would pay for it, not just you. See? That is how problems are SOLVED. Everyone gets to participate. You do not have to like it. No one asked you too. I am simply offering a simple solution. Can you DO BETTER?
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Rev. Brien
Sorry, little extra here: ...."There is a very logical reason public restrooms are built the way they are, and they have been built that way for quite a long time.".......... Can you expand on that? I am a little fuzzy on the unwritten bathroom laws of construction. Oh and for the record, most all large stores in my area now include single person restrooms. Hmmmm, seems like my idea has some merit after all. I have yet to hear ANYONE complain about getting a bill to pay for the bathrooms. Heck, even honey buckets are single person use. Now take a deep breath, calm your high and mighty tax payer self down and realize that the argument will cost us more in the end than the solution.
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John Owens
What was it in my text that made you think I needed calming? This text is so generic, there is no way to read inflection in it.
As to the reason for the way bathrooms are constructed, it is mostly a matter of logistics: One big drain pipe for the offensive matter being flushed or washed down the sink drains, and one each of a hot water pipe and cold water pipe, with tees for individual fixtures can service a large male restroom and a large female restroom separated by a wall. In large buildings, the floor is cement and the pipes and drains are running through the cement. Urinals for the males flush with less water than the toilets on which people sit, and therefore are considered "greener". This technique of installation serves more people with fewer fixtures and fewer materials. You have a few of everything but they can serve a lot of people with little or no waiting. The inevitable vandals and bathroom graffiti artists have fewer surfaces to deface and their acts are more likely to be witnessed. The privacy panels are usually stainless steel or formica, making them easy to clean and disinfect but also expensive, but can easily and quickly be replaced.
If all of these items were installed for individual restrooms, it would require many more restrooms, more plumbing, more fixtures, more space, and a LOT more money. This would be overhead for the stores, which would necessarily be tacked on to the prices for all goods sold. Just ask around how much an individual bathroom costs to build, plumb, and furnish. You might be amazed.I would suspect that honey buckets would become much more prevalent. For whizzing, that would be acceptable for me, but I would prefer my wife, sister, nieces, grand-daughters, daughter, etc. have a real flush-toilet, indoors, with a place to wash their hands. Have a great weekend.
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ardogarvin58
what does the bible say if you wont to know go to the book of life
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Pastor Pete
For the nth time, this is not a Christian church, many of us do not accept the authority of the Bible, you'll have to do better than that. And please don't go on and on about the "word of God", we disagree fundamentally, live with it! Love and peace all round.
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John Owens
I can accept that many here do not accept the authority of the Bible. That is somewhat understandable, since there are so many groups that accept parts of it and reject other parts, and therefore teach everything in a mixed-up fashion. It is very comical, that those who do NOT accept the Bible, and are continually harping on tolerance and open-mindedness, do not seem to want to be tolerant of those who DO accept the Bible's authority. Just saying.
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Pastor Pete
I take your point John, if you want to believe in whatever you want, just fine with me, however tolerance all round eh? You may believe in this book, I don't, consequently I cannot accept its authority, you have the freedom to believe anything, but not to dictate the "truth" to anyone else.
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John Owens
Well Pete, Stating that a certain book says a certain thing is not intolerance. It is just a statement of fact. Truth exists on its own, and only has to be noticed, and occasionally pointed out.
I regret that although the written word is so good at broadcasting thoughts from one brain to another, it is unable to broadcast the tone of voice or the background that produces those thoughts written.
Tolerance is tolerance. I don't believe people should do a lot of things, but I'm TOLERANT because I'm not going around scheming to harm them or even to hurt their feelings. At the same time, if asked, I have a responsibility to answer honestly. If the answer hurts someone's feelings, I regret that, but if their beliefs or lifestyle breaks my heart, they do NOT seem to regret hurting me, so I suppose we are even. Not declaring war on each other is an act of tolerance, possibly even love. People quote pseudo-science all the time, as though it is incontrovertible fact, just because so many people blindly accept it. I think it was General Patton who would not embark on a major military excursion until after someone voiced serious opposition to the battle plan. By examining their opposition he could find weaknesses in his strategy that the group-thinking planners would overlook. I see a lot of that (the overlooking of pitfalls and obvious flaws) going on around me every day. Some life choices lead to misery--can we agree on that? It is a defect of the human condition that when we are miserable we would like to blame someone besides ourselves--can we agree on that? So, if we can agree on these two things, we should easily be able to see that people who are miserable might want to blame people who are not miserable for their problems. Right now, some people want to blame bible-thumpers for their own misery, when the thumpers had nothing to do with it. They seem to think, just get rid of the thumpers, and everything will be paradise. We can live in harmony, then. That's BS and everyone here knows it. THEN we would fight about something else. It's the way of mankind.Sure, some of the thumpers are a little lacking in formal education. That in itself does not mean they are wrong, just like having a PHD in something doesn't make you right. An idiot with a PHD is a PHIDIOT. Some of our politicians are like that. Anyway, not ALL thumpers are uneducated, and they don't all live in mobile homes and drive pickups, and eat turtles and opossums and live in the rural parts of the old Confederacy, so everyone really should get that kind of thinking out of their heads. That is every bit as ignorant and bigoted as the most ignorant KKK follower. I am not trying to dictate truth, just seeing it and pointing at it.
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Rev. Brien
I do not mean to intercede here, but I have seen this comment more than once. I was under the impression that this church is open to ALL faiths, including christian. I did a little poking around and sure enough, I did find bible study with in the pages of this web site: http://www.themonastery.org/blog/sermons-2/bible-study/ Just wanted to put this out there. Peace.
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Pastor Pete
Sure mate, no worries at all with any of the brethren who are Bible believers, and this church is indeed open to all, but is not solely a Christian church, so the proseletysing by some of the more intolerant amongst us who use their book as ultimate authority for anybody but those of their own opinion is a little inappropriate wouldn't you say? Peace love and light to you.
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Pastor Pete
No problem with any of that John, and I have many friends who are bible believers, and good on them, it seems to lead them to a place of peace and tolerance, who would have a problem with that? My problem is with those Christians who attempt to foist their beliefs on me as fact, when the truth of these matters is a subject of conjecture, I don't have an issue with belief, just those who are arrogant enough to think that their way is the only way...
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John Owens
Pete, I appreciate that you see benefits to believing the Bible in some people. I think the problem lies, not with the Bible per sé, but with certain personality types, which are equally dogmatic regardless of their belief system. You can see that very plainly here on this blog. I have written about this in several places here and on one or two of the other blogs. Conviction in one's beliefs can lead people to act that way. I think conviction itself is a very good thing, as long as it doesn't lead us into extreme behavior. It's perfectly acceptable (not necessarily healthy) to feel superior to others. It is seldom acceptable, and less often correct, to ACT as though one feels superior.
I struggle daily to be kind and show grace to everyone, beginning of course, with my family, but also extending it to my customers and co-workers, and incidental contacts. I still sometimes come across as condescending, even when I'm trying my best to be nice. Condescending says, " I am better than you," and it is not acceptable.
I believe that is my personality, instead of any achievement on my part, and though I am fairly knowledgeable on many things, I know I do NOT know Everything about Anything. Certain churches engender that in their membership on purpose, and an outsider can see it in their literature and services if they attend. While a lay-member may not consider themselves an expert in their faith, they believe that there can be no relevance to any knowledge whose source is not their church, because if it doesn't come from their church, it is not of God. Every Bible believer has that inclination to a certain extent, but it SHOULD be focused on the Scripture itself, and not their church's version of belief. Even though, I lean very heavily on Scripture for personal growth, knowledge of right and wrong, the hereafter, etc., I try to be slightly more eclectic in knowledge and appreciation of life. The Bible doesn't tell me how to play a bagpipe, for instance, or rebuild a carburetor or wire double-throw light switches in a bedroom. I have to go to the "WORLD" for that. I will investigate, try to see the plus and minus of anything, and then make a decision how much, if any of that knowledge to inculcate. In spite of all this philosophizing that I have just written, I still reserve the right to become belligerent in the face of belligerence, but I'd rather stay calm and rational always. If we can disagree, and still be friends, that would be wonderful, and (in my most humble bible-thumping country-fide way of thinking) acceptable to God. He likes it when we are peaceable as much as possible.-
Pastor Pete
Sounds good to me bro, and may I say well done to your good self, your beliefs are plainly based on your own search for truth rather than dogmatic belief, and you absolutely seem to have a grip of tolerance, which is a most underrated virtue in these troubled times. In short, my respects to you, a man can never have too many friends, one of my friends is a bishop incidentally, greetings from rainy old London ?
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John Owens
Been a life-time since I was in London. My father was stationed in Prestwick, Scotland and we visited London and Ireland while we were "in the neighborhood." First train-ride, first large boat. First beach. First two surgeries I ever had. Went to England for one, had the other in Scotland. I used to play with the geese at Loch Lomond while Dad fished. Kissed the Blarney Stone, blah blah. I was too young to appreciate the history of the locations of our forbearers. I have an arrogant, presumptuous cousin who was sent by the Church of England to Rome, and then he worked with Tutu in South Africa. He's the closest thing to Chelsea Grammar's Frazier I've known.
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Sex is binary as in XY or XX. Sex is biological. Gender identity is psychological. The test is "Do you have a penis?" Then use the men's room. If you don't have one, then use the women's room. It really is that easy.
http://cnsnews.com/commentary/j-matt-barber/american-college-pediatricians-transgender-conditioning-child-abuse
i completely agree! it is nothing more than a perversion is what is trying be promoted by the perverted president with his tranny wife/husband!
ok tell me one time an ACTAL trans person has attaked or herassed anyone in a bathroom
That is not even the issue, so it is basically irrelevant to the dialogue.
That is exactly the issue -- or at least that's the mantra being wailed by anti-trans folks "fear of what might happen", "fear that a trans person will attack or assault someone", when it fact that is entirely made-up fear-mongering. There has never been any case of a trans person doing ANY harm to another in a public restroom; rather, there are loads of documented cases where a trans person has been a victim of assault. Trans men and women have been using the appropriate restroom for their gender identity for literally decades, and there is no reason to suddenly put a stop to it today just to make other people "comfortable".
I disagree. You are the one who brought it up.
The issue of safety does not stem from actual trans people, but from people acting like them. A man claiming to identify as a woman could enter the women's room whether or not he actually identifies as a woman, unless trans people became certified (not what I'm suggesting).
David, I agree. I am not arguing that point. Molestation seldom if ever comes from trans people. The safety issue makes it irrelevant from whom the danger comes. The facilitation of danger is the issue. This law makes it more difficult to prosecute peepers and purveyors of kiddie-porn.
Good point...as a gender fluid/trans individual I use whichever bathroom I'm comfortable with/dressed for at the moment nature calls
And there lies the problem as I see it, or one of a few as a matter of fact. Which ever bathroom YOU feel comfortable, without any regard as to the comfort of others. That is an issue. I personally am tired of the LGBT "Zero Sum Game" Where the LGBT gets rights at the expense of others rights.
I'm addressing Richard13-- Yep. Pretending to care about one group, but not caring at all about anyone else's feelings. That's what is going on here, and it really has nothing to do with either group, except as pretexts. There is a larger game being played here. This little bit with which we are dealing in this blog is going to get a lot of people hurt, and maybe THAT is the goal. It can be a pretext for crackdowns or something. Either way, most of these bloggers don't care about anything except whatever NPR and The View are talking about this week, and they act like trained chimps when it comes to trying to suck up to each other.
Martin, as I read your comment, I read it as you are transvestite not transgender, which to me is a very different case from transgender.
Nature? Nature called you to be a male. Dressing up as a female and going into a ladies room is dishonesty,
Oh Gregg, NATURE only matters on here when it can be cited to somehow back up gender ambiguity. I agree with you, of course, but we can't really use nature here, because somehow people who believe Evolution is the Creator somehow also believe there is an undocumented gene that EVOLVED to make them desire to copulate in a way that will never produce offspring. How can we discuss NATURE with people who are so stubborn they can believe in both of those things? If Evolution actually occurred in the way people believe it did, wouldn't it have eliminated that undocumented gene long before the age of Cro Magnon mankind?
I'm trying my best not to insult the intelligence of anyone while posting my opinion. But honestly, I feel my intelligence is insulted when sympathists claim that opposers are calling transgender people predators. This is a straw-man argument, and it does nothing for one's point, nor does it verify any sense of logical reason. In fact, it seems as though one is incapable of comprehending a simple point that their opposition may be making. What the opposition actually fears is that allowing people to use the bathroom of the gender they identify with, as opposed to their scientific gender, leaves enough ambiguity for that right to be abused by ANY predator, with minimal resistance. This is legitimate enough of a concern, besides the opinion that misidentifying one's gender seems quite logically (or at the very least possibly) a symptom of a mental disorder.
I fear that our society's acceptance of gender reassignment masks or leads to troubles that we readily acknowledge as serious - such as body dysmorphia, borderline personality disorder, self-hatred, social isolation, etc. - without a hard examination into why someone doesn't feel comfortable or happy with oneself.
This is not a judgement on homosexuality. It's completely different in my humble opinion. The feeling or need to identify as an alternative version of oneself doesn't seem anchored in reality to me. It seems problematic to me. It reminds me of the kid who sees it necessary to lie or exaggerate about himself or his home life because something in life isn't settled or is out of place.
That said, I do want to point out that I believe in fair and caring coexistence with all people, regardless of their beliefs and opinions. I don't believe I nor anyone else should govern the lifestyles of others. The transgender restroom ideology unfortunately impacts other people with its extreme ambiguity.
I agree, Chad. We know there are and will be non-trans predators who will use this. The whole controversy is completely avoidable, but appears to be too entertaining to die down.
Total agree with this; I have never heard of any transsexual attached or harassed anyone anywhere. Their not perverts, just human beings, and are we all not made in Gods image. Let’s promote peace and harmony not discrimination because someone is different from us. Is this not how all wars start?
Excellent point john
This is the issue since most everyone who is against Transgenders using the bathroom of their gender choice is using this as an excuse to keep them from using the bathroom.
You guys keep saying that, but you are just trying to misdirect the discussion. People are PRO- gender choice are the ones who keep bringing that up.
The issue is should transgender people be allowed to use the bathroom of the gender they identify with
Very Christian of you. Obviously you never read Matthew 7:1. Psychology is more important than physiology, as evolution makes mistakes. Your "god" is not perfect, and evolution proves it.
Dr. I disagree my God is perfect in every way, being human you are entitled to your opinion it's call free choice. Thank you for your post.
Isn't it odd that the "Dr." refers to Matthew and then refers to an imperfect "god" and evolution all in the same breath?
If evolution worked the way it is theorized, there would not be any gender confusion, as the genes that could theoretically cause it would have long since disappeared DUE TO EVOLUTION.
Dr. Sure.
Amen Robert! Obama knows that it can't be enforced on the states and that isn't his concern. It is part of his agenda to divide and turn the people on each other. One of the steps to turn a country to Communism. That is the only reason he made the move.
you got that right your not in the dark divide the people for new world order wrong is right and right is wrong now change every thing so that people don't know what is right turn every thing up side down fear is what they want fear not to say or do any thing that way we will take there new world order but not me end times are here stand strong trust in god he will make it right amen
Surely you heaters have something better to do. Volunteer maybe? Be of service instead of divisive and cruel? I don't know. Seems like much ado about nothing. Do you honestly believe that transgender people are part of the " new world order" that is evil. Children of God. Like all of us. You don't get to choose who is valid.
And you don't get to choose who are "heaters"
Somehow, balancing your hateful ignorance with the fact of you being on a page for spiritual enlightenment i pretty bemusing. Wanna know what real perversion is? Coupled with obscenity of the first order? Uninformed, myopic, uneducated trashery in judging others, and in the face of zero comprehension. In other words, you, Robert.
Chuch, I am sorry but it appears to me that you let your emotions get the better of you by attacking the person and not the ideology. We all believe differently due to our upbringing, environments we were raised, education our own socioeconomic statuses. These produce our own biases.
Robyn, It's true that we are each a product of experience, culture and biology. The difference between you and me is that I want to, knowing that--live and let live. You want to impose your understanding of gender on others. Allow people to use the bathroom of their choosing in peace. And help support safety for all our kids by supporting the ones who already face prejudice, bullying and isolation.
Anne, what you are saying goes both ways. You are saying, if people don't go along with this, they are somehow bigoted, and those who DO go along are more enlightened. That seems a self-serving interpretation that questions the motives of a multitude of really solid citizens, but does not question the motives of those who side with you. Wouldn't "enlightenment" examine the motives AND results of other philosophies also?
I certainly hope you are not any type of minister/clergy, your response about our President and his WIFE are horrendous and if this is what you are preaching and or teaching you need to relinquish your ordination.
Actually, Trish if he is a minister/clergy you have the right not to go to his church. However, there are many who agree with him. Relinquish his ordination is not your decision and detracts from your support of the President and first lady.
No one respects the President or his transgender WIFE? So right off No no will remember nothing about him, but being the the first BLACK President to send the USA on a path to deconstruction . This idiot could not run a daycare All will just be glad he is gone.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/5/19/1528469/-Dear-creepy-heterosexual-men-guarding-our-bathrooms
Oh Robert I really feel sorry for you......
Fulminate all you like, but in the end you will lose – as so many others of your ilk have done in the past. Some of us are old enough to remember previous struggles for equal rights, and so we recognize your rhetoric, your willful ignorance and your paranoiac fear of any change that threatens your narrow views of how things should be. We have seen your kind wield religion like a weapon, spout falsehoods as facts and attempt to demonize entire classes of people for no other reason than to satisfy your own bias and bigotry.
Nothing you can say or do now will have a meaningful effect. You'll continue to find places to express your unfounded opinions, and you'll be joined there by those like yourself who confuse bloviation for knowledge and prejudice for common sense. You'll find solace in believing that “most people” think as you do, when in fact you are but a vocal minority of parrot-like individuals adding “amen” to one another's ridiculous statements.
Your “arguments”, based as they are upon misinterpretation of facts due to your unwillingness to learn the truth or a purposeful effort on your part to use falsehoods to make your point, have no value whatsoever. Yet you will continue to present yourself as expert and reject information solely because it does not jibe with what you so fervently wish were so.
Yes, you follow a very familiar pattern. We know you all too well. And we reject your close-minded views, your lack of human kindness and your total absence of empathy for the struggles of others not like yourself.
Wallow all you like in your victimhood and your ludicrous claim that you are under siege by some force of evil determined to strip your country of its values.
In the end, life will go on, progress will be made, and you will be relegated to the margins of existence just as were those before you.
Absolutely! Well said sir!
You're full of beans, and who said this is "progress". Can you read your own writing and see how brainwashed you are? You're talking like a zombie, like a cult-member. A true believer in some false story of Utopia. We're talking Jonestown. You are talking a messianic version of New Age Junk, as if you "have been to the mountain-top." Do something for yourself about this. Get help. Talk to some real people.
ATTN: John Owens… remember your pledge to be more adult and stop with the name calling and condescending remarks? This is an improvement over your earlier conduct, but you're slipping a bit.
Bro John, Have you read the man's post? Aldous Huxley could have included it in "Brave New World". I thought I was being kind, but I'll try to be a little more diplomatic. I will point out, I did not actually call him any names, but I did get about as close as I could without doing it. He really is talking about some false New World Vision. I don't know whose vision it IS, but I know it's make-believe.
Please don't call me "names". That would be devastating.
I just ask you to read your own post, Ken, and try to do it as if you did not even know the person who wrote it. Then ask yourself, where did this person come up with all of this? It is written with CONVICTION, like a fervent believer. Who is their Messiah or their prophet? On what authority do they base their teaching? What power will bring these dreams to pass? It's a little freaky.
Assuming we're talking about Ken's post, yes, I did read it and found it to be a well written, accurate and concise expression of his views, most of which I share, John Owens. I continue to see "Christians" promoting "unfounded opinions" and beliefs as if they were facts in thread after thread. Without exception, the challenges I've presented to proselytizing Christians (including yourself) remain primarily unanswered.
I personally prefer the logic, humanity and common sense of a "New World Vision" as you've described it, to the nonsensical, inhumane and immoral Bronze and Iron Age World Vision of the world's "great" religions.
Kudos, Ken. I hope to read more of your insightful, well written posts in the future!
Where have I "proselytized"? I don't believe in that. I don't believe in missionaries, and I despise do-gooders of any kind. I believe in helping others in our proximity, and I think others should do the same. I think you have two brushes, one for those with whom you agree, and one for those with whom you don't, and paint everyone with one of those brushes. This vision is as far-out and unrealistic as anything. The inability of man-kind to ever govern itself well for any length of time has been demonstrated over and over. Sheer history should inform you both of that. Everything moves in cycles and the utopian dream is as false and utterly hopeless now as it ever was.
You're kidding, right?
Sex is not nearly as binary as you might think. There are also XXY and XYY. And there are people who are born intersex (sex organs of both male and female) as well as people with ambiguous genitalia where even the doctors arent' entirely sure. And there is a host of other complications. No matter what a person is assigned at birth, their gender identity may be different and this isn't made clear until the child grows and is able to communicate that gender identity. Further, there are actual differences in the brains of transgender people.
Ray you are talking about Hermaphrodites and that is a physiological issue. You are comparing apples to oranges. Extra chromosomal issues have been linked to environmental issues as well as Downs Syndrome and mental retardation's neither of which apply to Transgender lifestyle choice, which is an Adult decision. I am sorry to say I disagree with your analysis. Thank you for your post.
A. There are no true hermaphrodites among humans, and they are no longer called that. The accepted term is "intersexed." B. Gender dysphoria has been linked to a specific genetic pattern in some cases, and to hormonal abnormalities in others, as well as distinct differences in brain structure. Expressions of gender dysphordoia have been documented in children as early as age three, when language development allows them to do so. C. It is interesting to note that most people with an intersex condition (there are at least 33 that we know of) still strongly identify as either male or female, and not necessarily in keeping with either their socialization or the sex they look most like. When I began to study gender identity development in the 1960s, that was the first clue I found suggesting that the external reproductive organs develop independently of gender identity. D. To describe gender dysphoria as an adult lifestyle choice is preposterous. While there are cases of adult onset gender dysphoria, most of the time it occurs at puberty or earlier. The only "choice" is how one manages it. There are only three options, denial (which leads to suicide), managing it (so far as I can determine, no one has succeeded at that, even with therapy and medication), or accepting it and transitioning to the opposite sex to whatever extent possible. The latter is a complicated, expensive, and dangerous process, which is why most doctors require patients to wait until they are adults to begin that process. More and more doctors, however, are willing to prescribe medications that delay puberty until a patient is the age of majority, which facilitates a more successful transition. That way someone who chooses to opt out can stop taking the medication and develop as their birth sex.
Sex chromosomes are not always XX or XY. There are other types, including XXY, XXY, X0 and a few other types. These are about 1% of the population. In addition, due to hormonal anomalies and sensitivities/insensitivities, a person with an XY chromosome may develop into a girl, or a person with XX chromosomes may develop into a boy. Those are about as high as 2% of the population, and most do not find out until/unless they have a genetic test for something unrelated. Would you have all children have genetic testing, then send them to the bathroom and locker room of their genes? When they become adults, would they have to carry this with them at all times? What of the XXX, XXY, and XO people? Would you forbid them from going to the bathroom at all? Would we have monitors to check these cards? Or, monitors to inspect the genitalia of everyone who attempts to enter a restroom? What of those who have something wrong with their genitalia making it neither male nor female? Could those people just hold it indefinitely?
I really have to say, you worry about where you go pee and poop and I'll do the same...
In other words mind your own business and stop judging others lest you be judged...
http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html
http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2016/03/22/3762261/pediatrician-hate-group/
Hi, are you suggesting that women are merely "non-men" (i.e., those who don't have penis)? That awfully sounds misogynistic. Has it ever occurred to men like you that women (at least like 99% of them) have reproductive functions and accordingly unique needs associated with them?
Dr. Janice Raymond, a long time critic of transgender ideology long before Republicans and Christians hopped onto that bandwagon in recent couple of years, actually criticized transgenderism because that ideology equated "non-men" (or Raymond would say, "castrated males") with women. Erasing females happens either way, and that's misogynist.
Sadly the modern mutations of transgender political movement now considers this sort of discussion "transphobic," "transmisogynist" (sic), and bigoted so this is kind of a forbidden topic.
Thank you for your narrow-minded opinion but in actual fact there are other sexes than just XY and XX...as a person who has a BSc in Biology, with a minor in genetics there are currently 17 identified intersex conditions; and I know these people exist because I exist and I am XXY
Also, I would like to ask you...since I have a penis and a vagina which bathroom would you like me to use?
Martin use the bathroom your comfortable with
Brave new world
Sorry Gary but you need to go back to school and study genetics. There are all kinds of genetic abnormalities. Such as XXY. YXX, and many more which I will not go into. I have worked in the medical field and know for a fact that Hermaphrodites and other differences do exist. I have seen them. I agree some people have mental issues but there are those who truly are not gender specific or are gender incorrect. Medical science hasn't got this all figured out yet but don't be a hater. The Lord surrounded himself with prostitutes, thieves and other people that were not accepted by society. I try to do my best to accept everyone to the best of my ability. I have never heard of a transgender person assaulting anyone in a bathroom. I have heard of perverts doing so but much like gun control , if you take guns away honest people will turn in there guns, then the criminals will keep theirs and be armed. We don't need bathroom police checking a persons genitals at the door . We just need to love each other and watch out for each other. If you see some pervert in a bathroom call the police but if someone is doing no harm let them be. I have a female friend who identifies as female but unfortunately she is very muscular and has very masculine features and was emotionally very hurt last week when someone attacked her verbally for using the women's bathroom. She was so upset she went into the men's room , dropped her pants and exposed her vagina to everyone present and tried to use the urinal. Needless to say most of her urine ended up on the floor. Security at the store was dumbfounded and had no idea how to handle it.
Bwahahahaha! Good googly moogly Mark! You are the most full of ish troll that ever did exist.
All right, some of the Transgenders are ex-females who have under gone the TOTAL surgery and now have a penis, their birth certificate still says they are female, the North Carolina law HR2 says that they must use the bathroom their birth certificate says their sex is, on top of all of this they like to have sex with women. Where do they go to the bathroom?
At what point do we say enough there is a reason why we have two bathrooms in public. Would you be ok with a young lady that thinks she is a boy showing her privates to your young son.. or a young boy who thinks he is a girl an using the bathroom an your young daughter goes in an she saw him.. how do you explain to your child. Not saying I support not being able to chose a restroom that fits what gender you consider your self..
I'm nearly 75, and I can say with confidence that I've never been in a public restroom where people were showing each other their privates.
I can go along with that, as long as they pick a gender and stick with it. They can't be fluctuating all the time, which is what predator will do, to abuse this trend (and that's ALL it is).
Gary you right
This Makes Me Sick Our President Is Promoting Hate People Are Going To Get Hurt
Ido not think he is promoting hate he is promoting equal rights for the transgendered
They had equal rights already. This president wants them to have superior rights. Not gonna happen. Natural law trumps legislation every time.
Sex is not binary. That's a modern myth. http://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943
That flies in the face of empirical, demonstrable, observable fact. I'm not seeking an argument, but just saying. I'll be 59 in a few months, and I've never seen a third gender, or known of anyone needing three animals to produce one set of offspring.
Did you read the article? It's based entirely on the exact criteria you speak of.
YES. I was afraid if I read the article, I'll be bedazzled by BS, and FORGET that it takes ONE male and ONE female to reproduce. It does not require ANY THIRD anything. One cannot do it alone (except in a very few, simple organisms). THAT tells me TWO. Not one, not three or more, but two. No amount of scientific-sounding talk can change that. IN FACT, the article, in spite of all its talking around in circles, verifies that THERE ARE TWO SEXES-- "That the two sexes are physically different is obvious, but at the start of life, it is not. Five weeks into development, a human embryo has the potential to form both male and female anatomy. Next to the developing kidneys, two bulges known as the gonadal ridges emerge alongside two pairs of ducts, one of which can form the uterus and Fallopian tubes, and the other the male internal genital plumbing: the epididymes, vas deferentia and seminal vesicles..." and the rest.
All kinds of weird things can happen in this world, particularly where humans are involved, but it still takes one male and one female to reproduce and ALL this other stuff is just to muddy the water so you can't see what everyone has already known since Adam.