Back in 2018, a Pew study delivered shocking news to the world of faith: for the first time, America’s fastest growing religion was “None.”
Millennials and Gen Z were shirking faith in record numbers, with some 36% of young adults identifying as “atheist,” “agnostic,” or “nothing in particular,” a rate of non-religion dwarfing their Gen X and Baby Boomer forebears.
Now, a new survey has just delivered another jolt to the world of faith: for the first time, young women are leaving religion at a rate faster than men.
Women Saying Goodbye to God
According to the study, conducted by the Survey Center on American Life, young women – particularly women aged 18-24 – are less religious than their male counterparts.
Women now make up some 54% of the Zoomers who left their childhood faith, compared to their male counterparts who make up 46%. It’s a fascinating flip compared to previous generations, where men make up the majority eschewing faith.
"For as long as we’ve been conducting surveys on religion, men have exhibited consistently lower levels of religious commitment than women – across cultures, class divisions, any way you cut it," explains survey director Daniel A. Cox. "That’s what made this so notable."
Why Are Women Leaving?
Now the question remains… why? Why are women leaving the faith faster than men? And what changed to cause it? Experts argue it's for a variety of reasons.
Amongst young women, there’s a growing belief that men and women are not treated equitably in the church. A poll also conducted by the Survey Center on American Life found that a whopping 65% of Gen Z women believe that the church treats men and women differently, a belief which only 53% of Baby Boomer women hold.
Former evangelist Sheila Wray Gregoire warns that that could have dire consequences not only for church attendance, but for church operations. "Women do the majority of the work that keeps the church going," she explained. "They’re the ones staffing the Sunday school, making sure potlucks happen or that people are supported when they have an illness or are having a baby. The church is not going to survive without women."
The Culture War Comes to Church
Scholars believe that cultural issues may also be driving the wedge. Abortion and LGBTQ+ issues are both hotly contested issues that young women tend to have strong views on. Those views also differ significantly from the official positions of many organized faith groups.
A recent poll by the Public Religion Research Institute found that 60% of Gen Zers who left their faith cited “negative treatment of gay and lesbian people” as one of the biggest reasons why they walked away.
It all seemingly culminated in an unprecedented sea change for young women and their association – or rather, lack thereof – with the church.
Ryan Burge, associate professor of political science at Eastern Illinois University in Charleston, suggests churches would be wise to take note. “Right now the ‘check engine’ light is coming on – not every time you start the car, but sometimes,” he says. “And you don’t know whether it will fix itself or get worse.”
What do you make of the trend? Why are women leaving organized faith, and what can churches do to win them back?
170 comments
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Patricia Law
Christianity is not for me I am tired of the second class position for women in the beliefs. Prefer Pagon Goddess which honors women in all their aspects.
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Kristin Emley
I left christianity years ago due to its sexism and mysogyny. I did years of research and found the errors in the bible, the forgeries (Timothy 1 and 2). I researched ancient civilizations and found many of the bible stories come directly from Mesopotamia and the Anunnaki. Their have been additions, mistranslations throughout the old and new testament. Please research the Gnostic gospels as well as they were almost destroyed by the catholic church.
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Danielle Elizabeth Ostach
I think these number will vary by denomination and religion. The fact is that many branches of Christianity are discriminatory or outright misogynist towards women. Their only place is baby factory and kitchen and encourage men to promote that. This includes Islam, orthodox Judiasm, and many christian denominations. Even catholic church prohibits women from clergy and only way they can serve god is wife or chaste nun (even if they can do good works as nun, it is limiting).
Add in the LGBTQ+ and the abortion and some of the rise in militant church mentalities and women have little reason to be part of church.
That said, a lot of female friends still believe strongly in God or Goddess (to them God is not necessarily male, could be female, sexless or both in one). They just don't want to support what they see as political institutions that take their donations and give them little support or anything back. Sure there are exceptions for some churches that really build community but there is still the vies they disagree with.
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Constance Wellik
For me it was more about studying the historical evidence for the Bible - since I was taught from childhood the B I B L E was the infallible and inerrant Word of God. I took Biblical Studies courses from secular rather than theological schools. At first I was angry that I was indoctrinated by those I trusted but eventually I reconciled the duality of still loving the Bible but reading it as I would any other literature. I miss the church community (mine was more progressive) but after 70 years as a Christian, I really enjoy my Sundays!
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Misti
Nobody is leaving God, they simply are leaving the dogma of the Church. Spirituality is alive and well without the brainwashing of any religion. The made up rules, the homophobia and the sexism is rampant. Once they realize making money from funding anti abortion laws & fighting gay rights is not worth it due to losing parishioners, maybe they’ll stop the hateful controlling rhetoric. Love always Wins!
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Amber Fry
I don't think it's for the first time. Women were leaving pretty regularly back in the 70s and 80s as well. I do think when people have means and methods of getting along in life but are held to second class citizen then eventually they do leave. Some churches have managed to shift and change enough through time to accept that the role of women has changed in modern times, but many still refuse. If they keep refusing they will find themselve obsolete. Alternative religous ideals have become a much bigger posibility for both women and the men who also recognize these needs for that change.
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Melaine Rae Thompson
I split from organized religion because of the misogynistic mentality as well the constant pressure to give money to the church. I’ll donate to places that help people in need.
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Ari Joseph Bertine
It's really not surprising. A very patriarchal religion with a very patriarchal scripture just has very little to offer to modern women. There's no appeal in it for them. The way some churches treat women exacerbates the situation, and then there's the anti-abortion movement that is mainly Christian. I was made aware a few years ago that many women are Christian "by default" and their church attendance is social rather than spiritual. If community support is the only thing keeping them in church and communities are not supporting them, they're going to go somewhere else for support rather than a place with a lot of things they have to ignore to feel valued.
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Susan H. Crain
I don't believe they are leaving God. I believe they are searching for the freedom to worship God and not men -- the men who (despite the fact there are women pastors and bishops, etc.,) are at the foundation of the majority of all religions. I commend the women on the beginnings of their respective arduous and necessary journeys. It is my personal hard-won truth that the Master of the Universe wants to have a personal relationship with me that I may continue to learn my purpose here in this life, to fulfill those life's purposes for which I was sent, and to make whatever mistakes are necessary without their being dictated by an "overseer" who is a mere male human. Without the freedom, with the encouragement to give myself permission, and being told constantly to submit to male dominion, I was dying spiritually. I was not heard, or tended by any shepherd of any flock. My spiritual needs were not met, no matter how diligently I tried. Men who support (and demand their spouses also support) a government which abandoned a woman's right to make decisions about her own body, her livelihood, her purpose...and -- who knows? As they rescinded Roe v. Wade, and created the 2025 Master Plan which will obliterate the Department of Education, what's next? Sending women back to the kitchen, back to the nursery to continue birthing children no matter what, and taking away our right to vote? I no longer worship men who unquestioningly obey other men "in authority" (claiming their authority from God), who devalue the women in their lives -- and teach women to shun other women who refuse to goose-step. May God bless us all as we find our respective ways home.
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Randall Braxton Spell
So-called experts are scrambling to hide the real reason for church-flight. It is really simple ... and it is called the "blind faith" doctrine. This is almost always related to the Tertullian illogical teaching about a "triune" nature of GOD (which is antithetical to everything in the Bible).
Logically, if the churches tell their congregations that they have to accept the church teachings on blind faith ... that also means that the churches don't understand the Kingdom of GOD either. If they did ... they could teach congregations the truth.
Otherwise, people eventually come to the simple realization that the blind are leading the blind (i.e., see Luke 6:39).
People are tired of being deceived by politicians, other greedy-gluttonous people, and churches telling them that they have to accept church teaching on blind faith.
Sadly, almost 100% of Christian churches duck into the dumb-headed mode of "blind faith" in order to dodge the responsibility of truthfully leading their congregations in the light of truth (but, see Jeremiah 23:1).
Ironically, churches could increase their memberships 2 - 10 times by simply teaching the truth about the incarnate WORD-Jesus Christ ... and the fact that HE is trying to lead all of us to the same GOD that He serves.
The best constructive information I can give is found in this book: "GOD's Truth About Blind Faith for Dizzy Dummies" at this link: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CVG53PFX
The information is that book takes the "blind faith" control out of churches hands and puts people in the same room with WORD-Jesus Christ ... where people will learn truths that put them all closer to the Kingdom of GOD.
Thanks ... I am Rev. Randall B. Spell, BS, M.Ed, DD
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
Many Christians and Catholics, especially the particularly fierce zealots like the individuals we are seeing here who are absolutely spewing hatred toward women, scream about "No Shariah Law!" When they speak of religion in the USA. But, at the same time, are fighting tooth and nail to implement their own, brutalistic, version of it against the women in the nation.
I was born, baptized, and raised roman catholic. I broke away from the church at age 15 and never looked back. The why is irrelevant now, I'm in my 50's after all. But one thing that always bothered me was the absolute need to control my life. Who I talked to, who I didn't talk to, what books I read, and so forth. And I refused to let myself be controlled like that. Fortunately, my family isn't, and wasn't then, ultra-religious and didn't bend to the whims of those in the church much, so when I told them I was no longer going on sundays, they understood.
The fact is, zealots and bigots have taken over most religious institutions. They are fighting tooth and nail to rip away from women, every single right we have fought for, bled for, DIED for over the last century. The right to bodily autonomy is only the first step. They intend to rip away the right to be able to travel freely. The right to get divorced and escape abusive relationships. Then they will remove the right to vote, the right to own land, the right to drive, etc. And yet, far too many turn a blind eye because these individuals use "the bible" to justify their behavior, and these brutal laws.
So yeah, I'm not surprised how many women are leaving the churches, and not looking back.
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Tammy S Gardner
Many years ago I left a church. I did not leave God but the church I was attending. My spouse walked out on me and I filed for divorce. We could not work it out and the divorce went through. I was not in a church at the time. I did not receive any support at all from that church that I joined years after the divorce. According to the belief system, I made the choice to marry him and now that I found God and "knew better" it was up to me to get my act together and the expectation was for me to cry out and pray for God's mercy so God could reunite me with my ex-spouse. (He walked out on me! I did not walk out on him!) I raised our children myself while I was being sold the idea that I could not date anyone or I would be committing adultery. He had found someone else who was more into his lifestyle than I was, yet the doctrine was I still belonged to him. I got tired of the idea that I was my ex-spouses property even when he was involved with another. He did not want to reunite and was happy where he was. My beliefs somehow were not the same as the doctrine. I just wanted to drop the issue and go on with my life. So I left and found a life that enabled me to do so. I think being more respectful of a persons issues and what may have caused them and better ideas of how to support the issues that may come into the church in a more compassionate way would do wonders. Jesus took compassion on people. He performed miracles for them fed them, healed them. Resurrected Lazarus. He even turned Saul into Paul. In none of this was he rigid about the issues. He wanted friends who would willingly follow him, I guess the reason I left is the way certain systems analyze and present the ideas as non negotiable issues.
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Harold Albert Clark
I was pushed in a religious, patriarchy, where woman did the traditional female roles. I was young, 1970's and 1980's, and never became a member of the church, for many reasons. It is not surprising that women, or any than a masculine figure, may be daunted by many religious organizations, churches, etc. People have a lot to offer for each other, not just Sunday school; the social changes, or lack of, will come, but need to come for all of us, humans, divine.
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Daniel Todd Kamm
If the question needs to be asked, apparently no one has been listening. It's like the guy who is blind-sided by his wife's request for a divorce... apparently some people don't get it no matter how hard women try.
Hi and bye small - minded fry!
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Father Frederick
It's not hard to understand why women are leaving. When I was a young child, (1950s), the church was not only a congregation of faith, but of culture and community. Women, especially, used this as a social gathering in support of their families.
Today it's very rare that you have a church which does not have divisions in ideas, culture, and community. There lacks a commonality of spirit.
Add to that now the raw support system which women, and girls received in the 50+ years ago. That support system has eroded. Where at one time; one person hurt would have the support of dozens, today if a person is hurt the congregation avoids the drama and involvement.
Sadly, I've seen many women leave because there is no support, nobody to talk to, no "friend" in the church to talk to. It's not the fault of the religion, it's the fault of society. We are now a generation of "let's keep to ourselves".
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James Pace
You want to know why women are leaving? The abrahamic traditions treat them like crap. I wouldn't follow that tradition either.
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Charyn Fessler
Wow this makes me so sad... Y'all do not know the same Jesus that I do. I am cherished. I am loved. I am protected. I am His. I am a mother, a wife, a sister, a WOMAN OF GOD. My Jesus is a frickin blast! The original partier is my BFF! ❤️ I pray that all peoples of all generations know Him like I do ❤️ He's way cool lol
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Lionheart
He might actually have been way cool if what was written about him was true, Lady Charyn. I wonder how much of what was written by historians that never met him, decades later, was true? It’s very interesting that contemporary historians that actually lived during his supposed time never wrote about him. Weird, right? Wouldn’t you have thought that stories of a virgin birth by a deity, a man walking on water, changing water into wine etc., would have been the top stories of the day for historians at that time, but there was absolutely nothing from them as far as we know, until many decades later.
Here’s a “for instance”: Who was it, that wasn’t there, in the Garden of Gethsemane when Jesus was “all alone” while the Apostles slept, that actually wrote in fine detail of what transpired when Jesus was supposed to speak to his father. Was someone, unbeknownst to Jesus, actually spying on that event?
There are too many logical fallacies with all those stories for my liking. Thank you for your comment though.
🦁❤️
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Robert K Brown
There's a lot of deep thoughts going on here. I think at least part of it is financially motivated. Value of the Dollar keeps going down, cost of living keeps going up. Everyone feels guilty when they can't tithe cause they broke after buying groceries , so they simply don't go. Nobody cares when only the people at the bottom suffer, but rampant globalization is going to turn us all into slaves via financial means.
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Lynn Schumacher Hamer
You have to ask this question? So many reasons, so many crimes against women and children.
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Cheryl Pettijohn
Let's be clear here, leaving the church is NOT the same as leaving your faith. I would never, ever go back to the faith of my childhood. So much hate there, too much bullying my children, too much misogyny. I may not believe in the SBC, but I absolutely believe in Christ. Christianity is incredibly diverse as it is. It is time to reclaim Christianity from the haters.
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Blair Orr
I'd suggest reading Helen Keller's "Light in My Darkness". Some parts are dated but she deals with love vs hate in religion.
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James H Caldwell
Prior to becoming ordained my wife approached our pastor seeking help with a court case for her children the pastor instead of being the character witness she needed and he knew us well enough this was possible only simple says let me pray with you and we will let god handle it his way. Well needless to say it didn’t work out like that because we had no one of importance to back us up we lost and after that she left the church we are now both practicing pagans and have found freedom and peace in our lives now. If the church wants women to stay then leadership needs to fight harder to protect the women of there congregation and don’t get me started on the number of women a year that are in domestic violence relationships and seek help from church leaders that blow them off as over reacting because there husband teaches Sunday school
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John Casillo
RELIGION SOMETIMES IS A POTENT DRUG.....AND THE CHURCH LEADERS GLADLY COUNT THEIR COINS
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Donald G Magel
Could it be a continuation of the "Get thee behind me woman" attitude of church elders"? Women can work to keep the church running but LEAD one? Never happen! The Bible says so.. ..someplace.
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Patricia Law
for me it is the patriarchy in formal religions, I am tired of being a second class and inferior to men have left all organized religions.
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Randall Hunt
Men and women are not equal. They each have their God given different roles in life. God made women to have and nurture children and men to provide and protect the family. When feminism/communism brainwashed women to believe otherwise is where the rub is. Men cannot have babies. All of the gender confusion is Satanic and with women and some men falling for it is just them succumbing to Satan in order to destroy the church. Women will eventually learn feminism doesn't work because as they age they realize being the provider is not what makes them happy.
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Rev. BH
OMg! It's JD Vance!
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Susan H. Crain
Mr. Kester...
A Feminist primer? The lens she uses has affected her perspective? Do you have a problem with women reporting what they see, what they experience, and what they witness, and abhor? Do you not realize Ms.Tice is telling the truth about what is going on in churches? Do you have a problem with truth? She might not have said it in a manner you can hear it, but her words are no less true.
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Russel A. Kester
Susan, I don't know how your response to my response to Minister Tice got here, but okay. We'll just go with it. Yes, her comment read like a feminist primer. What of it? But allow me to respond thusly to your comment. Do you have a problem with men reporting what they see, what they experience, and what they witness and abhor? Do you not realize that I told the truth about what is going on in churches and Minister Tice's comment? Do you have a problem with truth? I might not be saying this in a way you can hear it, but my words are no less true.
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Karen Olga Dynek
A woman here. I will pray for you. Women are never lesser than men. I had a loser husband and have a lazy self-absorbed son. Thank God my 5 grandchildren seem to have strong values. Please do not judge people on the basis of gender. Better to not judge at all. I am a self-made woman. When I recall the times in my life that I was pushed by men to be on a different path I am so grateful to have chosen my own. Two degrees and a career in cardiovascular care, which my husband dismissed as “Mickey mouse” before he died. He was just jealous I guess. He could have been whatever he wanted to be but chose to be a self-absorbed freeloader. And no, I do not hate men. I know many fine men who have open hearts and minds, which you obviously do not.
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Russel A. Kester
So true, Randall. Today some of the women are realizing that the feminist propaganda they were raised with by teachers and other women they trusted were lies. And they're angry about it. They are realizing that they don't want the life men lead. That they have a wonderful strength in using their skills and talents in truly feminine ways. But alas, they might not have much of a choice anymore as it now takes two incomes to live and having children is expensive. Basically, women going into the workforce halved everyone's earning potential so now not working is no longer a choice. In the end feminism means we all suffer.
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Rev. BH
Ladies! Please use your "skills and talents in truly feminine ways"! Russel, please tell our female friends just what that might be. Cooking, cleaning, being sweet, making doilies? I'm sure they're waiting with baited breath.
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Russel A. Kester
BH, is there something wrong with cooking, cleaning, being sweet, and making doilies?
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Rev. BH
Let's let the ladies answer your question.. But in the meantime RAK, give the "being sweet" part a try. (Apparently, the Warren S. Jeffs reference went right over your head.)
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Russel A. Kester
Why should the ladies answer a question about cooking, cleaning, being sweet, and making doilies which were you word?. What as a man you have no opinion on basic household chores? How terribly sexist. Insinuating that men don't understand these things because only woman do.
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Rev. BH
You win - I have no idea what you're talking about.
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Russel A. Kester
LOL. That thread was growing thin anyway. But our conversations are more than interesting. I think they're important as they help all of us think about issues, ask why we believe what we do and where we got them from, and they help us to think them through enough to articulate them in our comments. You're actually rather good at the latter.
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Rev. BH
Kind words, brother. But we will continue to disagree!
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Jacquelyn Kendall
The article presumes that women leaving the church means those women are "leaving god". This is an invalid assumption. Organized religion is not the only place a Higher Power exists.
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Dawn Kathleen Miller
Absolutely! God, who I refer to as the Creator, is always with me. I could never "leave" It bc It's a part of the very essence of who I am. I left organized religion but I can never leave the Creator.
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Rev.J.Buchanan
I left the organized Church system because of older women being controlling, abrasive, gossips, back-stabing, unfriendly, etc. etc. It is like High School clicks all over again. Each church as a set, or two, of "family generational leaders". They never lose their positions. They know the pecking order and are content to fill their role within this order. Only G_d can help the young women who brings in a new idea or view of how something should work. It will be tossed out, only to be brought up and implimented when the rulers, or someone within the click brings it up again as "their idea".
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Russel A. Kester
J. So very true. Even in the small church where I grew up we all knew who the matriarch of the church was. It was quite nastalgic to read your comment. Thank you.
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Rev. Michelle Love
The Bible itself may be a reason women are no longer going to church. There are very few positive women role models discussed in the Bible and the women that are mentioned are either portrayed as scapegoats, harlots or opportunists. Representation matters and if it is not seen in their place of worship, women will look elsewhere for positive role models.
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Robert Rohr
Article hit the issues on-point. The church has forgotten the role of women in the very early churches especially in the eastern Mediterranean. They financed and led many of them; and had prominent roles. There was a cultural and historical shift around the 300's AD that led to their downgrade in the church.
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Rev. BH
The (early) matriarchal society left lands to their daughters. The religious patriarchy wanted it, so they changed the rules. "A husband shall have dominion over his wife". The church shall have dominion over your lands, babe,
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John Donald Cox
The Gospel of Mary documents that "The Apostle to the Apostles was treated as a second class, or lower, member of Christ's church although Mary's Gospel says that she was above the male apostles and that she were closer to Jesus and his teachings than any of the others. Bearing this in mind, it would seem that there were already a cultural and historical shift that had taken place well before Jesus's birth, life, death, and resurrection.
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Julie Armstrong
Jesus said, you don't need a building to Pray to Father. I consider myself very Spiritual, I do not go to church. Church is for people, in my opinion that need guidance and cn not do it on their own. I help people all the time without a building. I am ordained, and I meet with people that are thirsty for GOD over coffee, camping, AA, NA etc. If you live in a household family in todays times, everyone pitches in to help. That is good karma. It is true families were better way back when a parent could stay home while the other went to work, however not anymore. Yes I said 1 parent. I know of households where mom worked dad stayed home. It was better for them in a family unit. Yes they believed and prayed Isn't bottom line to believe and pray and trust GOD. I also do believe children need a foundation to build their beliefs on. So now I am speaking opposite of what I just said.. Children need church/religion to get and understand the concept. If this can be done in a religious school or classes so be it. GOD is inside of us, My children and I visited many churches when they were little 3rd til 5 grades. Then we stopped and just prayed at home. I have one child who believes. One agnostic, however now that she is working through issues. not so much anymore. My last one, was Atheist, Agnostic, Buddhist, Pagan, and now speaks to GOD. I think sometimes people go through process, and need that proof of his existence to believe and continue.
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Michelle Kitz
Anyone in business knows that you have to change with the times. You have to grow. Organized religion changes very slowly, if at all. There is nothing agile about them. And, quite honestly, I find some church beliefs to be traumatizing. I'm a recovering Catholic myself (Gen X here). It's been a while since I finally made a clean break when I realized the truth and felt drawn to Wicca.
Where I think the article goes wrong is in saying they're turning from God. I don't know if that's true. They're questioning. They're asking the right questions. If God is loving and we're all His children, then how can he turn his back on those he loves? That doesn't make sense. It never made sense to me either. But there's fear. The Catholic church taught me fear. I was a wreck from the things they taught me. I'm free of it.
I believe that the Deity is inclusive. We're all part of the universe. We're all made of the same stuff. Everyone should be treated equally. And the only rule that really matters is "An it harm none, do as ye will."
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Dorothy Hawkins
"Amongst young women, there’s a growing belief that men and women are not treated equitably in the church."
You don't have to believe it. Just examine the history to know it is the truth.
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Steven Ferrell
Sadly there is to many younger that only want to live for just themselves, not need to be concerned about others. Going to church take a couple hours of their time and may give them a feeling of needing to also reach out and help others at times. OMG how terrible it is they can’t be all about themselves only.
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Michelle Kitz
I disagree. They do care about others. That's one of the reasons for their departure. They care about people who are not welcome in the organized church. They're people who are accepting of those who are different from themselves. They're questioning why the church doesn't accept everyone with love equally. They love the planet and they love their fellow humans. They don't love organizations that treat some people as less than.
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Melaine Rae Thompson
You don’t need to go to a church to help others, I can attest to that. You can volunteer at a hospital, a food bank, etc.
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Madison Morgan Johnson
I agree with the author. However, I also believe its more complex and involves the politicization of christianity in the U.S. such as christian nationalism. U.S. churches are losing their way.
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Kathryn Hodgkinson
I left Christianity after 54 years. It took awhile to recover from the indctrination It is a patriarchal construct that by design oppresses women. In the US it has morphed from the sickening capitalistic incarnation as the prosperity movement to a vile and dystopian new inquisition. The good men of the new/old political church have little regard for the health and safety of women and children. They subjugate women and exploit poor children in the name of white republican jesus. If they continue this path we will return to the dark ages.
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Julie Gardner
We could also consider how religion can be “an opiate…” People have often turned to religion when they don’t feel they have power or control over their life. As women become more empowered in our society they may not feel the need for religion to ease their feelings of uncertainty and lack of control.
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Cathy A
Women aren't leaving G-d, they are leaving the patriarchy. Churches, like any other business, need to adapt and change according to current trends, or they will fail, like any other business.
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JT of the plains
Sadly, the non-biblical patriarchy has beaten down women for generations. I can understand why women want to stop that. The church needs to understand what was written so long ago, and stop giving priviledge to males over females. Egalitarianism is biblical, and as just one example of many is Galatians 3:28 "There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus."
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Claudia Marshall
I left the traditional church and joined a UU church. I am a baby boomer. I can support my LGBTQ brothers and sisters. I still claim Christianity but I can be my political self which I had to conceal like it was a sin. I am allowed to be myself but I admit I feel more comfortable I don’t focus on my sin, just strive to be more productive now. There are people who I can identify with it’s wonderful.
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Russel A. Kester
Claudia, it's good to learn that you found a place that feels right for you.
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Rev. Peter
The Southern Baptist faith, for one, lost 241,000 members in 2023. The general drift from legacy religions is one reason Christian nationalism is on the rise.
https://research.lifeway.com/2024/05/07/southern-baptist-membership-decline-slows-baptisms-and-attendance-grow/
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David M Hines
Read through a few of a certain commenter's contributions to the discussion and it's pretty easy to understand why the church is having problems attracting women these days.
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Rebecca L Tice
Cause we're tired of handsy preachers....
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William J Lewis
Once the church practices what it preaches they all will come back, women and men.
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John M. Endress
Women are also catching up to men in heart disease, lower life expectency, college attendance (wait, they’ve passed the guys on that one). So, I’m not surprised that women have found substitutes for what value they once found in church attendance.
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Russel A. Kester
Well said, John.
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Ealdormon Piparskeggr Robinson
My wife was raised Greek Orthodox. But over time, back in the 80's, basically became an agnostic deist. She believes there is something Beyond our existence, but has no personal Gnosis of it.
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David Cox
The bible says that there will be a great falling away from the church. Many will grow cold. The bible says many things but many people go by what they here.
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ServantOfJudgement
Woman globally are becoming more leftist/socialist/communist. These things in general are antichrist. It makes sense that those women would leave the church.
I suppose it will have an effect of steering a church closer to God with the antichrists leaving. With out the combative nature of grouped women as an influence, churches might be better suited to handle our imminent national judgement.
When there's nothing to eat, women will get their priorities squared up again.
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Alan Meunier
In your own words, please define "Socialism" and "Communism". Jesus himself was a "bleeding heart liberal" who hung out with the "less than desirable". By some accounts he was "woke" and a "socialist"......
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ServantOfJudgement
Alan, there's no need enter folly and define words we already know the definition of. We do that it won't be long till we don't know what a woman is like one of our Supreme Court justices. She's struggling with that I hear.
Let's not confuse the willful charity Jesus supports with the confiscation and distribution of someone else's property.
The bible says under the supreme government, no man will work or provide for another man. All will enjoy the fruit of their own labor. This is juxtaposed to socialism and communism. It is true independence and individuality. A man's worth will be his own. The government of Jesus is as far from socialism as water is from dry.
From what I've read Jesus(God) is liberal with certain things and conservative with other things. Bleeding heart liberals spit on trump voters and will not associate with them in any way beyond violence or threats of violence. Trump voters are considered less than desirable by nearly the entire main stream media and it's drones. This means you're going to have a tough time creating Jesus in your image without ignoring what the Bible says.
Our Lord is none of our political designations or philosophies. He is God of the universe and we are his creatures.
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Rev. BH
I take care of my "creatures" (cats, dogs, birds). I love and protect them. Your god does a really bad job of that. Wars, gun violence, rape, poverty, disasters. Usual reply? "We do not understand his mysterious ways." Neither do my animal friends understand mine, but they do not need to - simply, I protect them. They are much safer than I am under god's eyes.
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ServantOfJudgement
Well Bev, Im a goat herder and raise chickens. I've got cats to keep the vermin population low and dogs to alert me when something they perceive is wrong. My horse is a good boy that doesn't cause any trouble. My birds free range while my goats are in protected pastures I rotate them through. The cats move about freely.
Hawks, racoons, coyote and weasels kill my birds from time to time. They're in a protected coop but it still happens. Am I to blame if a coyote runs through my yard and snatches a bird without stopping? Is it my fault a bird of prey protected by federal law hunts and kills my chicken? Shall I imprison my birds to protect them and feed them GMO corn forever? Wouldn't that be cruel? I think it would be. By birds are happy birds.
When my goats choose to break their barrier down and put themselves at risk of coyote, am I at fault when the coyotes kill them or is the coyote at fault? Goats are like people, when they set their mind on something, they'll work real hard to make it happen. If the goats stay in their vast and abundant pasture, they're quite safe. However, if the choose to leave, and not all choose that, then they're at risk.
Let's not blame God for man's evil. Is it God's fault when a man visits a strip club and brings herpes to his wife? Let's blame man for man's evil.
God has given mankind guardrails we choose to break down. Did president Biden allow 11 million unknown aliens into the country or did God? When they kill, rape and terrorize as they've been doing, is that president Biden and vice president Harris's fault or God's fault? Perhaps it's the voters fault.
Look at the overdose death rate that our Republican and Democratic leaders allow to happen. They can stop it if they choose but they don't and won't. We vote for them. It that our fault or God's fault?
I have no doubt you love your animals. God loves us in that way. We are his free range creations.
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Rev. BH
" Did president Biden allow 11 million unknown aliens into the country or did God? When they kill, rape and terrorize as they've been doing, is that president Biden and vice president Harris's fault or God's fault?"
Well, now that your Trumpian politics become clearer, your godliness becomes murkier.
PS; my handle is Rev. BH, not Bev.
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Laurie Frisbey
As a woman myself, I agree, but men aren't far behind. Men built our world and women have always been the caretakers of what men built. However, society and infrastructure are crumbling because no one builds and no one cares anymore.
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JT of the plains
Acts 2:43-47 "Awe came upon everyone, because many wonders and signs were being done by the apostles. All who believed were together and had all things in common; they would sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds to all, as any had need. Day by day, as they spent much time together in the temple, they broke bread at home and ate their food with glad and generous hearts, 47 praising God and having the goodwill of all the people. And day by day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved."
Acts 4:32-35 "Now the whole group of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one claimed private ownership of any possessions, but everything they owned was held in common. With great power the apostles gave their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all. There was not a needy person among them, for as many as owned lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold. They laid it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need."
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Russel A. Kester
JT, you quoted scripture but provided no context. It describes what they did, but not why or if they were wise or foolish in doing so. As I understand it, they sincerely believed that Christ's triumphant return would happen during their lifetime and they would have no need of these assets. But alas, we know the expected event didn't happen as they'd expected. Later the church developed a better, hierarchical, structure to ensure it's continuance which in time included buildings and treasuries in stark contrast to the image the two versus you cited would create in the minds of those who don't know a larger picture of church history. Both context and history are very important.
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Nicholas J Page
If women are leaving the church then there's good reason.Yes women look after their children but what about men doing exactly the same It seems to me that women are doing the house work and the church work why don't men share the work load it's all about women's rights.
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Russel A. Kester
Nicholas, you put your finger on the problem when you wrote, "it's all about women's rights." No, it's not. It's also about children's rights, men's rights, society's needs, family needs. That is the problem with feminism as currently understood and practiced. Life is about everyone's needs and rights not just one group. Feminism is currently too self-centered. Perhaps it will change in the future.
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Susan Colmenares
This reminds me of those who said. “All lives matter” during the BLM demonstrations. The statement is true. Everyone deserves their rights. However, women’s are the ones being threatened at the moment, hence the resurgence of feminism.
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Russel A. Kester
Susan, thoughtful response. What rights do men have today that women do not? And how are the rights women have being threatened?
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Lisa Gavin
Right to do what we want with our bodies is a start.
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Rev'd Andrew
Pendulums swing. Societies appear to have been dominated by patriarchal systems for most of recorded history. As the pendulum swings away from that, it is expected that we will go through a period of time where the once-oppressed group get to relish their freedom and exert their new-found power. The pendulum may one day settle at a point where the rights of everyone, not just one or a few groups, are considered equally important. It won't happen in our lifetimes. If you're feeling oppressed as a man because women are becoming "too self-centered", consider yourself blessed to be in the company of billions of women, past and present, who felt the oppression of self-centered men.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Wrong Kester, that’s not feminism but another hollow accusation from its willfully ignorant critics. Only truly selfish men project that onto feminism and what it stands for. Men have been raised to be so self centered that tar when women are trying to speak up for themselves they get huge sweeping backlashes and baseless accusations which double as confessions for what the men are really doing. They do so only when women speak out or try to hold men accountable. Gods help us all grow from this infantile way of thinking. It’s about everyone’s rights till it is, then you guys balk at them. Your idea of children’s rights is they have the right to be brainwashed by sycophantic wannabes like yourself. Your idea of women’s rights is they must obey men. You’ve not said these quiet parts. But they’re there. They’re just not as popular as they once were so you don’t dare say them.
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Kathryn Schneider
My first thought is what's their family history? I never went to church outside of the mandatory school masses, funerals, weddings, Christmas and Easter. My parents never made it a family thing. Yet a friend of mine from grade school went to confession every Wednesday, Mass on Sundays and did the no meat on Fridays thing because her parents did those things. As an adult she continues the tradition. I tried to do the Catholic in good standing thing for a year and a half once.However God didn't comply with the rules, we had a fight and I held a grudge for 2years. But we're cool with each other now. And now that we're friends again and I cast off the shackles of organized religion our relationship is stupendous. So maybe in order for me to get here I had to have that fight 30 years ago.
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Patricia Ann Gross
My story is similar, just with different denominations. I use the plural, because the God I grew up with did not seem to coincide with the ones in other churches, so as I age, I find myself returning as well. It was never God that left me, it was the church that decided I wasn't what they wanted because they couldn't/wouldn't embrace the ministry I was called to.
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Lionheart
Hopefully men will soon catch them up.
Recovering from religion is not an easy fix, but there are tools available to recover. For those of you considering do so there are secular therapists available at seculartherapy.org and people can also call the Helpline at recoveringfromreligion.org.
🦁❤️
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ServantOfJudgement
Indeed they will lionheart. All of the world will.
Atheists will begin the slaughter wholesale, untethered by the construct of conscious.
That's what the Bible says anyway.
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Russel A. Kester
Lionheart, I think it's the other way around. It's time for people to rediscover the faith that made for a people of faith who then created strong families and strong nations. Society needs help recovering from the ills brought on by secular humanism.
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Lionheart
It’s totally OK for you to think that way. You should perhaps try being a woman in disguise in religion to see how it suits you.
For many women involved in the world’s 4200 religions, many of whom are being victimized and persecuted because of the stupid writings of male human beings that people like to call scripture, it’s a huge relief for them to be free of all the dogma and live a meaningful life, free from servitude to a belief structure.
🦁❤️
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Russel A. Kester
Do you understand faith in only Marxist terms?
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Lionheart
What are your thoughts on the faith that Islamists have, or Mormons have, or JW’s have, or Hindu’s have? Do you see them as understanding faith in Marxist terms, or someone else’s terms, because they differ from yours? Just asking for a friend of mine that is Wiccan that uses Nature as her Goddess, even though she cannot demonstrably prove her nature Goddess is real. She just uses faith.
Thank you for your question. 🤗
🦁❤️
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Russel A. Kester
Islamists follow a very radical understanding of Islam but that might be the truest and best interpretation of that faith. As for the others you listed, they have their beliefs but don't seem to present a physical danger to others. I do not see them in Marxist terms. Why would I?
As for your Wiccan friend, it sounds like she has faith in her beliefs and is content. If she truly finds fulfillment in worshipping nature as her Goddess as you portrayed her beliefs, okay. Although she might want to do a little more research into her Wiccan faith as my understanding is that the Goddess is a universal spirit that infuses the universe with her presence much the way that Christianity understands God's presence.
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Rev. Elizabeth
I wouldn’t say they are all leaving God. It could be that they don’t like what their church is saying or the way they practice. When I left a church, I wasn’t leaving God. God has always been in my life since I was 6yo. I have moved recently and so far I don’t care for the two churches in my area. What they say is not what is in the Bible and I can’t worship in a place that doesn’t honor God and what he wants for us. My sister was hurt from a church like that. The pastor was arrested from stealing from the church funds. It messed with her son’s head. He doesn’t trust because he was taught that the Pastor speaks for God, which my sister didn’t like him saying. Then that all happened and they have no church now. None around them. So that didn’t pull them away from God. My sister got even closer and we Bible study on the phone with each other. We are just as close, if not closer, with God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I’m sure some women are saying that they are leaving God. I don’t agree that all the women leaving the church is leaving God. As we all know, everyone that is not close to God blames God for all the bad in the world. I have to say to people in my realm, when they blame God, I say it’s not God’s fault, it is Satan that is doing this. Did you ask God for help? Jesus? the Holy Spirit? This is Satan’s world and God gives us free will. If you don’t ask for help, he assumes you don’t want his help. Invite God and he will be with you. I have to remind the people around me of that more than I like. It’s not God’s fault. It is Satan and yours because you don’t ask God for help. Then I teach how to ask God. I say you can ask Jesus and the Holy Spirit too. So, all I just said, I don’t think all women are leaving God. It’s not black and white.
Do you agree? Please, if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing. Try being positive for a change 😉
Everyone, be safe & be well Rev. Elizabeth
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Mountainsage
I am an educated woman and I don’t need a man to read the Bible to me or interpret it. Women who accept this need to take a step back and examine how they have been indoctrinated to allow men to control every thing they do and think. Consider your personal relationship with god and let that empower you and bring you peace.
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Rev.J.Buchanan
For years I had a friend who was a Nun and she told me that Nuns were not allowed to read the Bible until 1967. I'm sure I sat there with my mouth wide open. To think they taught in schools, etc. etc. and were not allowed to read a Bible. The rules were that only Prists could interrupt G_d's word. I still marvel at her revelation to me.
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Rev.J.Buchanan
OOps...Priests
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Patricia Ann Gross
Thank you, Elizabeth. I agree that women aren't leaving God, they are leaving the church. I have never been wounded by God or the Gospel of Jesus, but I have certainly been wounded by the church and the people in it. Calling onesself a "person of God" does not make it so. It was a huge awakening once I realized that. People of God hurt people too.
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Rev. Elizabeth
Hello Patricia. O MY GOODNESS!!! The same happened to me. I was devout. I committed myself to work for God in any way I could. Then I needed my church for my family and myself and was yelled at, in front of people and had a finger pushed on my chest to tell me that I was evil and will be going to hell because we didn’t do something they wanted. It wasn’t in the Bible, but it was their law. I took the abuse for years. I was petrified to go to another denomination. I was encouraged to do so and it was the best move in my life. God wanted this for me. It was how I could work for God. I was so hurt and I felt like I sinned really bad because of the people who are supposed to represent God. I knew it wasn’t God. I knew it was Satan. He has a hold of that denomination. They haven’t changed their ways at all. I have not been hurt by my new denomination. A couple of people have been unkind to me. I just prayed for them. I was told they were jealous of me and my exuberance. I trust our God. He just had us do a huge move and we did it. We always benefit by listening to God. Your story reminded me of mine and I’m sorry you went through that. God is still with you. You don’t need a church if it isn’t a good church. My relationship is with God, Jesus & the Holy Spirit. It’s a good life and I obey. I get great rewards from being obedient. It took 5yrs to get this move. I prayed to put us where we belong. We arrived on July 20th. I’m so happy. I didn’t need a church. I had to help people before this move could be done. We did help who needed us and our job was done and the home was available and we bought it. It is our reward for listening to God. It wasn’t easy at times. The hurricanes just kept coming and it was taking its toll on me. But I was obedient and then he told my husband now! We were told about this house and we are here! All because of our love and trust in God without a church. Patricia, thank you for sharing your story with me. You echoed my story. I had to respond to you. Put your trust in God and you will get what you desire and deserve. Thank you so much - May many blessings befall you 🥰🤗💐
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Patricia Ann Gross
Thank you, Rev. Elizabeth, and blessings to you too. Sometimes,all it takes is knowing that others have walked the same path and faced the same turmoil to feel the blessings.
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Rev. Elizabeth
And you are not wrong Mountainsage. You would think by now that would stop and women be respected. We are not. We bring forth life. We raise the life we gave and that person, especially if it is a male, is expected to do well but not of a female, yet, the male raised by a female. Does that make sense? We are supposed to be simple minded humans yet we teach the future. You don’t see a man doing that unless forced to do so. I was blessed with a man who raised our children together, not just me. You are welcome and thank you for sharing with me and all the others too. We are blessed 🥰
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Rev. Elizabeth
You are 100% spot on. I can’t agree more. Thank you for sharing 🥰
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Rebecca L Tice
I'm 73 years old. I've been in the Baptist Church my whole life. I left the church because I hadn't met an honest preacher, a true man of God, in decades. When the pastor of my last church had an affair with my friend and then threw her out of the church, that was the last straw.
Women couldn't read the Bible, as a whole, until around the 1840's or 1850's. We didn't get a vote until 1920. The Gospel was still trapped in the King James Language gap until 1970. We didn't get a look at how women were treated until just recently.
Women hold down jobs, run the household, volunteer, and have the children. Men tell women what to do. Might as well put a leash on a girl. That's what the Old Testament taught. Women and children were a commodity. Men based their value on how many children they had to work in the field or in the house.
Men have had centuries upon centuries to be straight with us about what their Bible says. Instead they made every man a hero and every woman a harlot. Except of courst Mary.... who they turned into an idol.
So yes... women are displeased with the dishonesty of the church.
IMHO... Jesus would spit this church out!
Hoctui
TIA Becky
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Cathy A
Comment removed by user.
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Rebecca L Tice
Nope... but my grandmother preached at the local church when the pastor couldn't make up into mountains in the winter.
I post a Bible Study every morning... that some people have decided they don't like.
https://forums.somd.com/forums/religion.30/
My dad was a Deacon in the Baptist Church.
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
There's no good reason for a woman to be a Christian. They're literally considered property in the old testament and are excluded from everything in the New.
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Tammy McDonald
The main reason for a woman, or anyone for that matter, to become a Christian is to avoid going to hell! Something to think about!!
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JaZe
hahaha Tammy, you dont really believe that, do you? Spirituality and religion are not the same. Many women have found it to be true, so they dont need to belong to any church, but they can follow a spiritual path.
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Sadie Tin
I completely agree with the woman leaving church😈. I am a 24 would LOVE to leave my church because my pastor is SAing me🤢. His name is Fr. Issikal Mark Summers, age 64, and he’s been having an affair on his husband with me for 8 years now🙇♀️. I’m not sure if his husband knows, he’s been there for all of it … maybe he likes it🏳️🌈. Issikal, even though he has a husband and a wife, is EXTREMELY homophobic and heterophobic to everyone in the church. I think he just hates marriage, but not intercorse! Anyways, no joke my mans Issikal should probably be cancelled and have his subscription to life revoked if you know what i mean.
Signing off, Allison 😩
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Rev. Elizabeth
Don’t you think you should stop? You are just as guilty via him. Think higher of yourself. You deserve so much better. You know this is sinning all the time, right? Think about what you are doing and be good to yourself. You deserve so much more. I will pray for you. You are brave. Very brave.
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Rebecca L Tice
My friend was drawn into a relationship with the married preacher. When he was through with her, he had her thrown out of the church... claiming she was insane... "who would believe anything this insane woman would say... after all 'I'm a man of God'"....
That's why... it's not a matter of being strong.... women have been putting up with this junk so the church would not have to survive the accusation.
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Sadie Tin
Thank you queen you are a real one. Have you ever been molested by a pastor before, it seems like it. Either way thanks for keeping it real and not being a man with big junk. Love you!
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Rebecca L Tice
Actually the church said they would help me leave my physically abusive husband with my three children. Then when I got to the place they told me to go... they didn't know anything about it. There was no help.
I traveled clean across the country on a greyhound bus because the church said they had a home for us. When we got there.... there was no place. I was told there would be a job and daycare.... there was no job and no money for food or rent.
The church has been twisting the truth since Paul got that letter giving him authority.
So no... I personally was not abused by the preacher... I was abused by the church.
I have never been abused by God.
Thanks for asking though....
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Russel A. Kester
Rebecca, it broke my heart to hear how your church treated you.
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ServantOfJudgement
May I ask Call son, does the church you attend display the pride symbolism?
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Najah P Tamargo
Najah Tamargo-USA I tend to agree with Jake. "Religions" all tend to treat women like so much chattel. Obey your MAN, clean your house, cook the meals, make babies, kiss the ring, etc. Being a Baby Boomer, I walked away from organized religion in my teens. I was blessed with 4 children, one being a girl. I raised them ALL to think for themselves, be respectful towards everyone, always be truthful, honest and kind. I also taught them to fight against injustice of any kind and never judge others, as that is not our job. I worked all my life to support them (without EVER getting a penny in child support) and they all have turned out just fine. If younger women are walking away from male dominated religions....GOOD FOR THEM!!!!
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Rev. Elizabeth
I raised my children the same and I’m around my grandchildren to share that along with their parents. I also agree if they are being mistreated they should leave. I did just that years ago. I don’t regret it at all. God bless you and your family. Your strong like my Mom was. She raised 4 of us and we are strong women and men. 😉
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Mountainsage
I, too, recognized early on the unfairness and discrepancies of total patriarchy. I raised my daughter in the same ways the two of you did. I do believe, however, that there is a need for spirituality. treating women as unequal or possessions does not align with the teachings of Jesus or Christianity as far as I’m concerned.
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Russel A. Kester
Women leaving the church could be a good thing in the long run. Feminism has led women to this point as it continues to tell women to eschew children in favor of degrees and work. Men in church shows a greater opportunity for men to come together and relearn the biblical understanding of their duties to God, the church, their families (as both husbands and fathers), and in society at large. Men were sidelined by the influx of women into the clergy and as theologians pushing feminist theology to the detriment of men. So this just might be the reconning the church needs. This might be the salvation that men need.
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Robert James Ruhnke
What, so they can then push their views back on women violently? Or do they become chaste monastic orders who stay out of politics altogether? I’m all for number two. Yet what history has shown us is when Christian men get together mobs of fanatics form and cities burn and people are snuffed out. Truly a plague of locusts. This comment reeks of Christian nationalism and honestly gives off really gross Gilead vibes. Remember though Kester, neither are friendly to gays. They view you as apostate. Just a hint.
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April B
Well spoken Robert. 👏🏼
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ServantOfJudgement
Robert, that's democrats and BLM. I think your getting your riots confused. The Jan 6 riots were trump voters with FBI and DNC operatives to help things get moving.
To my knowledge the last major Christian uprising occurred around 1776. Your right about that one though, it was a mean one.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
ROFL SoJ!
Hate to tell ya, but Robert is 100% correct. And wrong, there've been tons of religious zealots, primarily christians, that have been rioting and killing even in the 21st century. People's political affiliations have nothing to do with it. And no it wasn't the "FBI and DNC" that did the Jan 6th thing. That was 100% the MAGAs throwing a temper tantrum that their guy didn't win.
Hence why EVERY single individual who participated in that attack were arrested and imprisoned. Or, rather, the ones that actually committed violent acts and illegally went into the building. Of course, you're so filled with hate and conspiracies, that you can't, no, it's that you refuse to, see or hear anything that doesn't conform to the cult you now follow.
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Joe R Day
Well written Bridget! Agree totally!
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
Leave it to you Russel to spew your fantasy about why women are leaving the church. Time for you to step away from your keyboard and leave your mommy’s basement.
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Russel A. Kester
LOL. Elizabeth, you're too funny.
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Rev. BH
Poor men were sidelined by the influx of women! OMG! Time for Sharia law, eh RAK?
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Russel A. Kester
BH, your comment went to a dark place far, far away rather quickly. Sharia law is belongs to Islam, wrong faith. Hey, so your comment shows a hatred of men. Okay. If you wish to advocate that you want to live in a society with only women and feminized men go for it. I don't. Simple as that.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
Actually Russel, that is precisely what you are demanding. A Christian / Catholic version of Shariah Law. Yes it is called that under the Muslim faith, however, the Christian and Catholic versions of it are the exact same thing under different names.
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Russel A. Kester
So you think that my writing of fewer women in church and more men might lead to a renewal of faith and identity for men is equivalent to being a Christian version of Sharia law?
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Robert James Ruhnke
Religious extremism is found in every world religion, Kester. Sharia law and the Laws right wing Christians are pushing coupled with book bans are the very essence of sharia law.
Yes. History has shown when Christian or Muslim religious mobs gain power, people die needlessly. Y’all are part the same abrahamic religious grouping. Arabic and Aramaic are related. Muslims recognize Jesus as a Prophet, and is part of the Quran.
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Russel A. Kester
But Robert, no one can kill like a communist or socialist.
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Amber Fry
Yes but if you compare the tenents of those laws to what this new Christian National tenents you would find a really tight similarity. Check.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Russel, Your comment screams of the person from a Sunday School Class who was railing against women being called to the ministry when I was in seminary. So I asked her, "so you don't think I was called by God to the ministry?" to which she replied, "I believe that God is only calling women now because men have not stepped up to the task. As soon as they do, God will quit calling women." I have never been so angry at such a reply. Women have a place in the church, just as much as men do, and not just in the kitchen, but in leadership and the pulpit.
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Russel A. Kester
Patricia, I understand that that is your belief. You have a right to your beliefs. But others also have a right to theirs. I've attended a few churches with female pastors and never found them to be particularly good or effective at the job. But since I'm an advocate for single sex schools, I could also support the idea of single sex churches. That should please everyone.
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Patricia Ann Gross
If God hadn't intended for women to do these things, then God wouldn't have given them the skills, talents, and passions to do those jobs and then call them to ministry. Complete segregation along the XX/XY chromosome alignment seems like an extremely radical proposition, even for you. My husband has been more enlightened by female pastors than male ones, so your experience is obviously limited (if not biased, because you went in with the expectation of not liking them). Yes, I agree that everyone has a right to their beliefs, but when those beliefs start to infringe on the rights of others, I start to draw the line.
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Russel A. Kester
Let me think about what you wrote:
- If God gives someone the skills, talent, and passion to do a job and they feel inspired to do it, then they should do it.
- Women who have the skills, talent, and passion and inspiration to be ministers should do it.
Therefore, these women should be ministers.
If God gives someone the skills, talent, and passion to do a job and they feel inspired to do it, then they should do it.
- Men who have the skills, talents, and passion and feel inspired to be a warlord should do it.
- Therefore, these men should be warlords.
Do you still agree with your reasoning? Might there be important elements missing in your reasoning?
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Patricia Ann Gross
You are twisting the theodicy concept, (but still applies) which states how can God be all loving and all powerful, but bad things still happen to people? It is a mystery we won't begin to grasp or understand in this lifetime. Do you believe God calls some men to be warlords? That is the question YOU are not asking. Personally, I don't. Do you believe that God does not call women to be ministers? I believe God does call women. I presume people in both scenarios can be duped or delusional in thinking they are called by a higher power to do what they do, however what I do helps people, and what a warlord does is harm people. So which side do you think God is on?
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Russel A. Kester
Patricia, nice response! I define a warlord as "a military commander, especially an aggressive regional commander with individual autonomy" from the online Oxford of languages. I will use the idea of judges from the OT of the Christian scriptures as they were military commanders we can refer to as warlords given the above definition from Oxford languages. "They are oppressed by their enemies and cry to the Lord for deliverance. The Lord raises up judges to deliver the Israelites.
Judges 3–16 The Lord calls 12 judges to help deliver the Israelite tribes from the consequences of their unfaithfulness to the Lord." https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/old-testament-seminary-teacher-manual/introduction-to-the-book-of-judges?
So yes, God does call some men to be warlords. Which is interesting because one of these judges was Deborah, a female.
Does God call some women to be ministers is an interesting question. Ministers to whom? If to other females, I don't see why not. If to males, I have reservations. Of course God knows whom he calls and to what ministry they are called. But historically the church recognized men as called to minister to the entire church from Jesus Christ, the twelve apostles, Saint Paul, and all of the popes of the Catholic Church. This was also true in Protestant churches until quite recently in church history. In the book of Acts there was a well respected Pharisee, Gamaliel, who advised the council to allow these followers of Jesus to be unmolested by the Sanhedrin advising that if they are not genuinely of God's doing they will soon be gone, but if they are, then no one can stand against God. That is what I think of women ministers. If they are truly called of God, time will tell.
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Clay Serenbetz
Do you think that you're a misogynist?
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Russel A. Kester
No more than you think you might be an andryst. It's amusing that when one speaks to the needs of men out comes the term "misogynist" but it never seems to happen the other way around. It seems okay to disparage men but whoa to anyone who disparages women. Each sex has a role or function in a healthy society. In the above comment I suggested that the recent trend in church attendance might prove helpful to men in rediscovering their roles.
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Robert James Ruhnke
No Kester. Nobody was disparaging men, your pearl clutching is just a hyper overreaction to people holding men accountable and held to bare to their foibles and failings. It only looks like disparaging because you worship the ground other men walk on, Kester. Gay misogyny has always been synonymous with the worship of men. The way you push for gender segregation sounds gross coming from you.
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Kathryn Hodgkinson
Spoken from a place of priviledge! Men have been in control several thousands years. You don’t understand it when you’ve always had it. Whoa to anyone who disparage women. You are part of the problem.
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Rebecca L Tice
You are so right.... we pick up your dirty underwear in private and in public... while you swear we're the ones cleaning up the "manly poop" you leave everywhere.
For God so loved the world that He sent His Only Begotten Son so that ALL who Believe shall not perish but have life everlasting.
All, no just men.... ALL....
While we've been cleaning up your poop.... you go on spouting a twisted gospel while goosing the elder's wife or the nun down the hall or an unexpecting child. God for you... but I won't dare call you an mysogynist.
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Clay Serenbetz
What roles? Men and women can define their own roles in society without you forcing their roles into your prescribed straightjackets. What makes you the decider of what roles men and women should perform in society?
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Russel A. Kester
In our society men and women have the civic right to define their roles. But I was speaking of a healthy society.
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Clay Serenbetz
Again, what makes your steaightjacketed roles "healthy?" Your pre-conceived notions are unique and, in my view, unnecessarily constricting. Lots of different roles for men and women are "healthy." If one's chosen role makes them happy and productive, then, in my view, it's healthy.
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Russel A. Kester
What makes me think that men and women having roles that they fulfill dutifully is important to a healthy society is history.
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Clay Serenbetz
Comment removed by user.
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Kale L Meyer
"Healthy society" because you are happy? Is that it? I hate to tell you. In this mythical place in your head? Women absolutely hate you.
Did you happen to notice the population is going down? Women don't want to have children anymore. I can't blame them. Men want to control everything. Down to knowing when they are having their periods. Yep, I can't see why women are leaving the church or refusing to have children. This is why they stay single too. Oops... you do know without women we wouldn't have children right? In the current climate? One would have to beat and rape them to get them pregnant. Does that make one feel like a godly man?
Women are nor our servant or slave. They are our equals. Just because one is angry with the small member they were given by God? That doesn't give anyone the right to be a woman hating misogynist control freak under the guise of religion.
Read ALL of the books in the Bible. You're going to be shocked by how equal God himself considered women to be. How many female prophets there actually were. Read the ones that weren't included in the 66 by human men too. Make sure you are reading the old versions not tainted by human men for their own selfish needs. To feed their pride and ego. You see, how you define the Bible and God's wishes for man and women to have a black and white place in society? It simply isn't true. Research and you will find the KJV can not and never has been able to be translated. So again it's what human man has decided it says. Even read The Book of Enoch. Don't be brainwashed by any Pastor. Read and use your own critical thinking. Go to Bible study where you can run ideas off of others.
The world isn't black and white. It never has been. It has always been gray. Women have always been a gift to us. Who give us the beautiful gift of a baby. We should always treat them and respect them. Without them humans would not go on. We need them. They do not need us.
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Amber Fry
That's generally becuase the "needs of men" seem to venture towards a need to put women on a lower class in the societal scale in order for the men to feel like men. When they actually conduct themselves for themselves and not for ruling everyone else's needs and choices then mysogeny accusations would go away. Good luck with that. It would mean an equality that seems to be resisted currently.
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Russel A. Kester
Amber, not surprisingly your comment has turned everything upside down. It is women following bad feminist ideology which causes them to seek superiority over men and disguising misandry as a simple request for equality.
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Robert James Ruhnke
No they’re not. Lol that’s the oldest accusation against feminism there is. It’s men following women exploiting ideologies for the last 5000 years which makes you push that silly projection, Kester. There’s a few bad apples out there who spoil a bunch, true. Yet by and large if they were seeking superiority they’d have already done away with us men. They haven’t. So your words ring hollow once again, Kester.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Sorry, Russel, but in a healthy society each person will perform to their talents and gifts, and these aren't always aligned on the XX/XY. God gave me a relatively high IQ, a thirst for learning, talent in arts, but also in science and mathematics. God also gave me a rapid growth spurt when I was 13 (I grew a foot over the summer), so I am also disjointed and clumsy and never was an athlete, except in endurance events. The sex assigned to me at birth does not define me, nor should it. I should not be denied rights and opportunities because of my sex or gender expression, as they don't matter when it comes to the things I do well. I gave birth twice and part of that time was as a single mom, but I still helped run a tech company as a VP of Research and Development. Women are no more seeking superiority than gay men are seeking superiority over straight ones, so your definition of feminist ideology is what is misguided. All we want is equal rights, pay, and respect.
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Russel A. Kester
Patricia, that might be what you want, but when radical feminists scream destroy the patriarchy, they are really screaming destroy men. There is no patriarchy to be destroyed, only men. I watched an Australian panel of 7 or 8 feminists go on and on spewing vitriolic hatred of men and decrying toxic masculinity. During the Q and A, a man asked them what they thought healthy masculinity looked like. They just stared at each other speechless. Finally, one woman spoke up and said that healthy masculinity was a fully actualized woman. What a terrible answer. But it is reflective of feminist ideology and propaganda wants to destroy men and all things male. As I've written here before, boys have fallen behind girls in going to college when they were going in greater numbers than girls in the 1960's. But the school system was feminized because of pressure from feminist groups and the ACLU. But with this much greater disparity now experienced by boys than was experienced by girls, these same groups fight ceaselessly from allowing any changes to bring boys up to parity with girls. That is wrong. It shows feminists' true colors. If they were actually about equality they would agree to changes so that boys and girls go to college in equal percentages. But they don't. I ignore their rhetoric and watch their actions which are ugly. Research this yourself if you doubt what I've written.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Russel, As usual, you are lumping all feminists in together with the radical fringes. Ideologies fall on a continuum, usually. It's like saying every Muslim is a terrorist, when the majority are very peaceful and peace-loving individuals. Feminism has members who are more moderate, but still want control over their bodies and equal pay for the same job. Tell me about the men now being sub-par to women when the pay gap disappears, and maybe then I will believe you.
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Russel A. Kester
Patricia, I find feminism to be a harmful ideology. It is impossible to discuss it based on individuals within it but of necessity I must speak more generally to those aspects made public by its advocates. Therefore, while not every woman agrees with feminism's tenants, if she identifies herself with feminism then she cannot divorce herself from its harmful practices.
In like thinking, while not every Muslim is a terrorist, Islamic terrorists are Muslims. Therefore, Muslims must address this issue and stop these terrorists to improve their image.
Today, it has been shown over and over again that the gender pay gap is a myth. Women do get paid equally when doing the same jobs. The perception of a difference arises from several factors among which are that 1) women do not go into the same career fields as men in the same numbers and 2) some men are highly paid which skews the pay received by men as opposed to women in statistical averages.
However, your response deflected from the fact I raised that more girls are going to college today than boys as a direct result of changes in the educational system advantaging girls over boys.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Harmful to who? As for the wage gap, keep drinking the Kool-Aid. The Forbes report for the 2024 gender wage gap (an easy Google search) shows that when all things, including experience and education, women still fall short of men, but the gap is narrow. Yet, the uncontrolled statistic (same industry and position, but doesn't include experience and education) shows that depending on the same industry and position, the gap is still 74 to 83 cents for every dollar a man makes. Considering that I have 25 years in the IT industry and would have 45 years by now if I hadn't pivoted mid-career, at the time I started, I was outnumbered by men 10 to 1 in every position I held. Also, in my generation, women were general administrative staff, nurses, and teachers (typically lower-paid jobs, even with a degree, because women had men to take care of them). Men had trades, financial, legal, scientific, and executive jobs (typically higher-paying because men were supposed to be the breadwinners). The glass ceiling is cracking, but female executives still make less than males and don't have the tenure in the C-suite that men do, so they make 74 cents to every dollar a man does in the uncontrolled sample.
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Rev. BH
Russel, since no-one asked, please tell us all about your word "andryst". Not in your OED or anywhere online, except some curious New Age site, which I never guessed to be your bag. Thanks for any help.
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Russel A. Kester
My bad typing when I'm thinking ahead of my typing. Misandry is the hatred, contempt, or prejudice against men or boys. Thus a misandrist is a person who dislikes, disposed, or is prejudiced against men and boys. But because misandry ends in a "y" I will probably continue to error and forget to change it to an "i" when meaning misandrist. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
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Alexander Arends
The gospel just does not relate to women anymore. I think the reason women did not drop out sooner is that they looked at it as a good way to raise theiir children.
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Amber Fry
It never really did but women had little choice or chance to make their own way until they got the right to vote and the right to have their own wealth.
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Jake Reynolds
This is great, after the screaming about the abortion issue and the call for women not having the ability to manage their own bodies, good for them to leave god, because they aren’t leaving anything except blather from “the other side” the alphabet problems though that is another kettle of fish, the screaming from one side about a personal issue that is broadcast to all points so much it is being made political, again, what people want to do and believe in should be their business, and who you want to be with behind closed doors is your business and yours only, the ladies coming to a conclusion and new belief reminds me of the black and white life turning into colours because of new insights in the movie Pleasantville, ladies keep it up and keep making YOUR OWN MINDS up, good news.
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Rebecca L Tice
I doubt seriously that women are leaving God. They are leaving the church that has been tainted by greed, lies and yep politics!
Women were meant to be a helper... companion.... to man.
So are dogs. Funny, don't hear much about men beating their dogs....
We think puppy mills are wrong.... but we will have no say in becoming baby mills for men who would pick and choose which race has babies? If some men aren't careful, white women won't procreate and black women or freckled women or brown women will have more babies.
Women have been putting up with lying lascivious men for centuries upon centuries. While priests and preachers have been sleeping with the deacon's wife or the nun down the hall or unsuspecting children, women have been tending to the poor, sick, and hungry. Is it any wonder women would leave the church?
Of course, if all the Christian Women got together and formed a church of our own.... those lasceivious men would call us all lesbians.
Yep... God forbid there should be a cat 5 huricane and humans need a refuge from the storm.... because those men "who claim to be men of God" won't let them in because they might get the upholstry wet!!!!
No I don't think it's all about abortion or abuse.... I think it's about the ruination of the man smudged church.
But then again... that's just my opinion.... formed after 73 years, over 50 or which were spent in those Nice Baptist Churches listening to the twisting of the Gospel to fit the needs of the Elders' pocketbooks.
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Charles Potter
completely agree with you. I might add one reason everyone is leaving is there to many man rules and disregard for God's law. Rev c Potter
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Paula Copp
I don’t believe that women are here to help men. Lilith, God’s first female, was made of the same dirt as Adam. They were equals. Adam whined to god because Eve wouldn’t do what Adam told her to. So god banished Lilith and made Eve. It’s been downhill for women ever since.
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Russel A. Kester
There is no mention of a Lilith in the Christian scriptures. From where do you get this idea? As far as I am aware Lilith might have some connection to ancient Mesopotamia.
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Russel A. Kester
It's good to see that your time in the Baptist Church didn't leave you feeling bitter. Of course, there is the Episcopal church. It's even had females for its primate. Your comments about white men and baby mills and portraying men as sexual predators reads like a feminist primer. Perhaps the lens you've used to view the world has affected your perspective.
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Rebecca L Tice
The Baptist Church honed my "world view" perspective. Still a Christian... just not renting a pew.
https://forums.somd.com/forums/religion.30/
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John P Maher
AND WITH GOOD REALLY GOOD REASONS !
Yep have to agree I have left the church and I'm leaving without guilt and condemnation. I can breath