Officials in one New Jersey town are going to war with Chick-fil-A, hoping to keep the popular sandwich chain out of a new development along a main travel route.
The wheels have already been set in motion for construction of a Chick-fil-A location at a rest stop in Bloomfield, NJ on the iconic Garden State Parkway, but now Bloomfield’s mayor and some city councilors are protesting the move.
Opponents argue that the popular chicken chain – with owners unapologetic about their Christian beliefs – shouldn't be allowed to open along a public highway because of its anti-LGBTQ track record.
New Jersey Cries Fowl
“Chick-fil-A has a long, documented history of opposing same-sex marriage and supporting anti-LGBTQ legislators and organizations,” said Bloomfield Mayor Michael Venezia. “I implore the New Jersey Turnpike Authority to reconsider this decision and to instead choose a restaurant that is more in line with our values.”
Mayor Venezia and City Councilman Rich Rockwell joined forces to decry the Turnpike’s decision to allow Chick-fil-A to open a restaurant in the area, arguing that “Bloomfield is a diverse community accepting of all races, religions and sexual orientations, which is the antithesis of what this chain stands for.”
The Turnpike Authority dismissed their request, and now they’re taking the fight to state politicians, hoping to find legislators sympathetic to their cause who can block the chicken chain at the state level.
The Plot Chickens
Chick-fil-A is a fascinating case study of how business, faith, and politics are increasingly intertwined. The company's founding family holds strong Christian values, which stem from the Southern Baptist principles of late founder S. Truett Cathy, continue to guide the company’s business decisions. For example, Chick-fil-A restaurants are famously closed on Sunday in observance of the Sabbath.
But even more controversial than being unable to get waffle fries and a spicy chicken sandwich on Sunday is the company’s ardent opposition to same-sex marriage. In 2012, COO Dan Cathy publicly came out against same-sex marriage, stating that it was “inviting God’s judgment on our nation.”
That statement turned Chick-fil-A from fast food restaurant to political football, with protests, counter-protests, proposed bans, and even Chick-fil-A Appreciation Day in Arkansas, courtesy of then-Governor Mike Huckabee.
Since 2012, the company has donated millions to religious groups that actively oppose gay rights and promote marriage discrimination, although they shifted the focus of their charitable donations towards ending hunger in 2019.
Left Flightless
This is hardly the first time the embattled chicken has come under siege from local political authorities. A few years ago, the San Antonio City Council successfully banned Chick-fil-A from opening a location at the city’s airport, which prompted the Texas State Legislature to pass a ‘Save Chick-fil-A’ bill, preventing cities from banning companies based on their support for religious charities.
It’s yet to be seen if New Jersey officials will succeed in keeping one of the nation’s most popular fast food restaurants from opening up shop. Regardless of the outcome, the controversy has again spurred conversations about whether it's justified to punish a company due to its owners' beliefs.
Should Chick-fil-A feel the financial ramifications of past decisions by being shut out of a popular and well-traveled rest area? Or should local governments butt out of when and where businesses – even controversial ones – are allowed to set up shop?
What do you think?
209 comments
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Katelynne Shouse
**** Hate-Fil-A......the day they go out of business can't come soon enough!
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Stephen D. Atchley
Well, their profit statements indicate that will not happen for a very, very long time. Hope you aren't holding your breath.
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Reverend Kurt
Not being in America, I feel I cannot comment on the "discussion topic", besides it makes little sense to me. What I am concerned about is the tone of the discussion. This board used to be enlightening, funny sometimes, even witty. Occasionally the stupid would creep in. The discussions were mostly serious, intelligent and honest opinions from honest people.
What has caused the change?? Is there now a need for name calling, personal put downs and direct attacks on the forum members? Reading through the comments above I am very disappointed that it has degenerated so much.-
Matthew Mastrogiovanni
Kurt; It's the topics, that are posted. They're designed to create arguments.
I too would like to see some positive topics, to discuss.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Dream on, Kurt! I've been on this blog for a few years, and it's been the same all along. This is what it's about. If it ever stopped being this way, the ULC would cancel it. This isn't a free for all, iether. There are moderators. Not all of our comments get posted. They only post what they think is appropriate. If you want to be part of a lovie dovie group of peaceful intellectuals you're barking up the wrong tree.
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Eugene Evans
It is in the Bible, Gods word that man shall not lay with man. The world seems to be going along the lines of Sodom and Gorrmorah. That is wrong to punsh a shop because of their belief.
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David Arthur Lewis
So you want to punish people, not capitalist corporations. Not very Christ-like, gurrlfrind.
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
RE: Eugene Evans - God put forth 10 Commandments, Trump has broken most of them, yet so-called Christians keep silent about it.
Thousands of priests have been discovered to be pedophile-rapists. They just get shuffled around (hidded/granted new hunting areas) but nobody complains.
You can't cherry pick which rules to enforce.
Christians need to stop the hypocrisy.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
You are spot on. Take a look on YouTube at all of the lies and promises Trump told and made.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnFQ4s5MQzY&t=10s&ab_channel=NowThisNews
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Rev. Rosalinda T.
I agree! Business is business and personal is personal. What the business personal belief and what politics it supports has nothing to do with their service as a business. For example, they are not going to not serve the LGBTQ community, if the LGBTQ community went to their business to purchase a meal they will not deny them service. The LGBTQ community could choose not to purchase from them but the business can't not deny them a meal. What the business supports in their personal religious political views again has nothing with their business of serving chicken. If I am a democrat Christian with a chicken spot I have the right to support whatever political religious issue that has nothing to do with me providing some good chicken to whoever wants to purchase it. If I am democrat Christian and a atheist owns a clothing store I have the choice to purchase or not purchase from them. Their personal belief can't stop me from allowing them to do their business.
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Rev. Dr. G. Waldron
Generally I agree with you, but it is a little more complicated if the business itself is giving money to hate groups and buy-off politicians.
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CB Cuff
Comparing an Atheist to a 'democrat Christian' is irrelative to this article / topic. This is about religious beliefs held by Christians. The beliefs of this specific corporation have clearly expressed their disdain for the LGBT community. I agree with you however that a customer is free to shop or not shop there, based on their own beliefs, whether religion, cleanliness, honesty, etc etc. The business does not have the privilege of deciding who can shop there simply based on the shoppers religious beliefs. Or, the lack thereof.
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Rev. Dr. G. Waldron
Generally I agree with you, but it is a little more complicated if the business itself is giving money to hate groups and buy-off politicians.
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Rev. Dr. G. Waldron
Generally I agree with you, but it is a little more complicated if the business itself is giving money to hate groups and buy-off politicians.
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
Any business, that’s open to the general public, should be open to all, during regular business hours — and if they refuse to do so — they should never ever even be considered as part of the contract-bidding process.
The GOP has figured out, that if a business, wants to practice bigotry towards non-Christians, minorities, gays, those who rely predominantly on science, and females, all they need to do, is claim that such obnoxious bigotry, is demanded by their Christian God, and that they’ll go to hell for eternity, for allowing anyone to eat chicken, on a Sunday — even if they’re the only restaurant around.
Even the mythological Jesus, if he were hungry enough, would buy chicken for the poor, on Sunday.
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Daniel Gray
first william get your facts straight. Chick-Fil-A is NOT even open on a sunday. Secondly I can introduce you to a veteran whos own grandson is transgendered and he WORKS at a Chick-Fil-A in Ft Wayne so your pitiful attempt to try and claim they dont provide service to everyone is utter bull. and Thirdly you seem to ignore the 1st Amendment that clearly states that NO government can make a law that will violate a persons religious beliefs. Which means if NJ tries this they will be sued into bankruptcy for violations of the Constitution. Colleges have found this out the hard way and so did Frisco. So you really need to stop your passing on of actual lies and myths just because you dont agree with the company.
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Mike
Sooooo... Chick -Fil-A practices bigotry against minorities, gays, and women? Or are you just trying to knock down strawmen that you erected with hypothetical constructs?
If you don't agree with an owner's personal beliefs, don't eat there. And chill. Getting your panties in a bundle over hypothetical constructs isn't good for your soul. If you have one.
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Rev Charles R Juarez Jr
Wow now I want to Chick-fil-A sandwich...
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Daniel Gray
They CANT. Sorry but NY tried the same thing and when they got sued they lost the case and Chick-Fil-A went in anyway and NY had to pay for all the trouble they caused the company. Same thing is going to happen here. So let them whine and cry all they want, but it isnt going to work
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Minister Wilson
Hey Mr. Gray
You mean the same New York that also have a problem with people wanting to build a Mosque to close to the 9/11 site. So who are the real hypocrites?
Chick-Fil-A owners want to go around running their mouths its a free country. So whyu should Chick-Fil-A claim they have a right to avoid social consequences?
They routinely prohibit strip clubs, bars , and liquor stores in specifc areas why not Chick-Fil-A's there is nothing special are deserving about them.
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Daniel Gray
So when does your "social consequences" trump state and federal law? Answer is they dont no matter how you wish it otherwise. And if you want to prohibit a restaurant then you have to do it to ALL of them or its called discrimination. And to do it because they dont agree with the LGBTQ lifestyle is a violation of the 1st amendment. Sorry but nothing you posted made a lick of sense.
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Minister Wilson
Hey Mr. Grey
I am sorry that you misunderstand. I think that they should not block Chick-Fil-A that is what I said in my orginal comment. But I do like how you completed avoid the 9/11 masque issue.
So when does your "social consequences" trump state and federal law? Really, your giving me a lay-up.
Hum, how about the 1965 Civil Rights movement, or hey how about the right for women to have an abortion. It would seem that "social consequences" trumped state and Federal laws dont you think?
Chick-Fil-A's owners brought these problems onto themsleves is my point. I think the owner's view have nothing siginificant to gain economically. People, communities, states, all have an equal right to try and block Chick-Fil-A. Just like opening up a white nationislt resturant in a jewish neighborhood. If they win lose or draw I dont care the idea that they have caused problems for the company is the point your missing.
Minister Wilson
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Daniel Gray
No I replied exactly how it should have been replied to. If they wanted to build a mosque there and had all the paperwork approved and purchased the building, then they own the property and no matter what I feel about it (and I dont think it should be there) I have absolutely no say over it because I dont own the property.
And sorry but no, the 1965 Civil rights movement does NOT trump state and federal law, sorry but if you think otherwise then you really need to be re-educated in how a law is passed. And as for abortion, yet again sorry but that is not a right that is anywhere in the US Constitution and is was never made a right. All Roe did was say it could not be banned, nothing more...which is why there are going to be restrictions put on them. And if you think otherwise then maybe you should read the decision as the SCOTUS cannot just make up rights out of thin air as per article 3 of the Constitution, they dont have that authority.
And yet again you failed in your third point. The 1st Amendment clearly states that NO law can be made that would violate a persons religion. Therefor for ANY community or state to try and refuse a business just because they dont believe in a person/business owners religious beliefs is a violation of the US Constitution. All you have to do is look at the little sisters of the poor SCOTUS decision where it states the exact same thing, and so does the Montana ranch decision where they refused to allow a gay wedding, and I can name you quite a few other decisions that back what I said. In fact here is a perfect example in proving you are totally wrong. Try looking up Church of the Lukumi Babalu Aye v. City of Hialeah 508 U.S. 520 (1993) in which the US Supreme Court ruled that a local "law/ordinance" was unconstitutional because it violated the 1st Amendments protection against violating religions.
So maybe you really should double check your facts instead of relying on your false beliefs as you are doing yourself no favors in this.
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Minister Wilson
Mr. Gray,
Your response clearly shows that you are missing the point. The mosque project suffered protest and backlash from people claiming to share your same misguided sentiment.
They found it insulting and demeaning because an Islamic Center two blocks away from the 9/11 site disrespects those who had lost their lives. https://abcnews.go.com/US/mosque-plan-clears-hurdle-protests/story?id=10747570
Fast forward now if you can and think about the rhetoric and homophobic stance Chick-Fil-A owners have taken against gay marriage. Do you see any similarities?
Negative social consequences can ruin societal relationships and affect positive social changes through the backlash. You claim that there is no right to abortion, yet there is no right for states to prohibit abortion either in a free society.
The Civil Rights Movement changed hearts and minds and pressured state and federal lawmakers to change segregation and Jim Crow laws. And I think it is intellectually dishonest for you to claim that Roe vs. Wade did not establish a right for women to make their own family choices.
There would be no rights for interracial marriage or corporate personhood if that were the case. Women do not need a constitutionally mandated right to be left the f#@k alone with their own health care choices. And if that were the new standard, then anyone can bear arms, but there is no constitutional mention of bullets.
Oh, by the way, there is no Constitutional right to marriage either. Should we exclude that also?
It appears that your thinking is being intentionally naïve about certain subject matters.
And what exactly did I fail at in your last point? I have stated before that Chick-Fil-A should probably not be excluded from specific areas. This also shows that you never even read my original post. You went through all that time and energy to quote case law that we appear to both agree on? WOW, just wow.
My point now, please read carefully, is that Chick-Fil-A owners have caused this mess for the company themselves. They stand to gain no competitive advantage or financial benefit from espousing their biblical Christian views none whatsoever.
Now everywhere they go, they have a fight on their hands, and good, they should because it was plainly stupid since most people do not believe as they do on this controversial issue.
There is a promotion of General welfare in the Constitution, so how do warped Christian “values”, you know, owning people as property makes for a better Union. If you don’t think that social consequences change laws, why did the country get rid of slavery, Jim Crow, Segregation, etc.?
Take care,
Minister Wilson
Some helpful advice, try reading my orginal post before you write me back, so we are discussing the same things...
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Daniel Gray
And your point is not worth a plugged nickle. This is how they view their religion and this is the standards they set as per their religion and being so there isnt a darn thing that anyone can do to stop them. To do so is a violation of the 1st Amendment and no amount of spin that you post is going to change that. I have already given you SCOTUS court cases that say the exact same thing so there is nothing you can provide that is going to overturn these decisions. And as per article 1 of the Constitution and Article 3, neither the Congress nor the President can do anything to violate a SCOTUS decision as they have the last say in the matter unless Congress can get 3/4ths of BOTH Houses to agree with them, meaning they would need over 75 votes in the Senate and over 380 votes in the House to overturn a SCOTUS decision and that has never happened.
So while you may not agree, what they are doing is perfectly legal and constitutional and what NJ is trying to do will cause them to face a very expensive legal battle that they will lose.
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Minister Wilson
Mr. Gray
Your arguement sounds delusional?
What is it that you think I disagree with?
From a business prospective Chick-Fil-A has caused these problems for themslves...Do you agree or disagree with that statement?
The Supreme Court also ruled that Dred Scott was essential a piece of property how did that turn out?
I could not careless about their religious beliefs, just like you dont care about the beliefs regarding the masque and Islamic Center. You disagreed with that right? So why cant I express the same sentiment towrds Chick-Fil-A?
Chick-Fil-A knows that they made a dumb decesion voicing there opinions about gay marriage. Why dont you pay attention to what the CEO had to say:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2014/03/19/chick-fil-a-ceo-cathy-gay-marriage-still-wrong-but-ill-shut-up-about-it-and-sell-chicken/?sh=670e44ad2fcb
Absolutely, no one has said that they had no legal right to do what their are doing, it was just not a sound business decesion to do so, so what exactly are continuing to go on about?
Please, try reading and understanding with less emotion and bloviating
Take care,
Minister Wilson
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Daniel Gray
Spin it any way that helps you sleep at night but the fact remains. I base my post on the US Constitution and federal law, whereas you dont do either. So go ahead and spin it some more in trying to prove your point and failing each time.
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Minister Wilson
Mr Gray
You post appears to be based more on intentional incoherency.
Which is what people do sometimes when they do not have a coherent arguement...
Minister Wilson
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Daniel Gray
yep just like I said. You have no legal leg to stand on except your misguided beliefs. And that will not stand in a court of law. So go ahead and keep on spinning if you wish. I an standing solidly on the bedrock of the Constitution and federal law....you not so much.
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Minister Wilson
Hey Mister Gray,
Let's try this...I think that;
Chick-Fil-A has a legal right to tout their relgious beliefs
Cities or towns do not have a legal right to block them for their religious beliefs
Chick-Fil-A's CEO acknowledges that it was a dumb business decision to voice their religious views about Gay marriage
I agree with the CEO of Chick-Fil-A
I also think that people, towns, and cities that do not think Chick-Fil-A is a good organizational fit in there area have a right to push back against those beliefs, just like the Islamic Center mosque near the 9/11 site.
So, what are "my" misguided views you are refering too?
And, what is it specifically that you believe I am "spinning"?
I completely understand if you don't want to answer, and I will consider that as your apology.
Take care.
Minister Wilson
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Daniel Gray
No lets try this, the head of Chick Fil A has never said stating his religious beliefs was in any way wrong. He is the owner of the company and has the right to run it how he sees fit as long as it does not break the law and nothing he has done is breaking the law. Now while some people may get their panties in a bunch on how he runs his business, thats all on them as what he is doing is perfectly legal under federal law and the US Constitution. What they are trying to do is not. So there is nothing you can say that is going to change it. Like it or not what he is doing and how he is running his company is perfectly legal and for anyone to try and stop him because they dont like it is illegal and unconstitutional. Case closed.
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Minister Wilson
Objection Sustained
Do you know how links work?
Here copy and paste this link below ( all those skriggly words and numbers) into your browser and read for your self...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2014/03/19/chick-fil-a-ceo-cathy-gay-marriage-still-wrong-but-ill-shut-up-about-it-and-sell-chicken/?sh=59fb3e622fcb
Here you go I will do it for you;
"Almost two years later, Dan Cathy -- a self-described evangelical Christian -- says he made a mistake.
In a rare and wide-ranging interview with the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Cathy admitted his anti-equality stance probably wasn't a wise business decision, regretting "making the company a symbol in the marriage debate":
“Every leader goes through different phases of maturity, growth and development and it helps by (recognizing) the mistakes that you make,” Cathy said. “And you learn from those mistakes. If not, you’re just a fool. I’m thankful that I lived through it and I learned a lot from it. "
I agree with Cathy
So again,
what are "my" misguided views that you are refering too?
And, what is it specifically that you believe I am "spinning"?
Make sure that you are not arguing against your own rhetoric. Unless, that is what you are intentionally doing to avoid "manning up" and saying that you misunderstood.
If that be the case then your underskirt might also be a little wrinkled sir.
Take care,
Minister Wilson
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Dr. Bob Thomas
Freedom of worship is THE fundamental guiding principle of the founding of this nation. I do not care if the worship is unpopular or controversial. Exercise your own right not to participate or support a religious organization. Make full use of your right to speak freely without recrimination your own PERSONAL belief or opinion. Do not EVER impose your own beliefs, opinions, or traditions upon anyone else while you hold a government position. You want to live in a country where that happens then move to one. Enjoy all the consequences of having someone else tell you how to worship, where to live, what you can say, who you can associate with, and so on with absolutely no ability to change or influence those decisions.
As a government employee or representative elected official, you should have taken an oath or signed a loyalty statement to protect and defend the constitution of the United States and all of its laws. Did you forget to read it? Do you not understand what was written? If you have suddenly found yourself in conflict with that oath of loyalty or office, then it is time for you to vacate that position and move on. Anything else is contrary to the office held. As a citizen, you enjoy those same rights of freedom of worship, freedom of speech, freedom of association and so on. As an elected official representative you have the responsibility to ensure that those rights are secure to each individual citizen. As a Mayor you should be very familiar with those rights. You do not get to cherry pick who those rights apply to. You remind me of a particular European nation back in the 1930's who tried to do this very thing. What is wrong with you? Shame on you.
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Susan Marie LaLonde
Chick-fil-A chicken sucks anyway. Their Employees aren't the friendliest in Florida.
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Lionheart
I'm curious, does one have to be a member of the Christian cult to get a job there?
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
And do they require their diners to say grace before eàting?
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
It would be best if you would act like a Christian while at work, Lionheart. And you wouldn't be the only one.
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Lionheart
Yes, I've been there and done that, then I became enlightened to the Christian illogical dogma.
They do have good chicken meals though. 😜
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
You're right, Susan. I've even heard that they suck on those chickens before frying them. That's why you'll sometimes hear a loud "Cock-a-doodle-doo!!!, coming from the kitchen. And it's not gender specific iether.
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Joe R Day
I only gave you a Like for the humor factor...
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Donald Richard Starns
The “bible” forbids lots of things: adultery, clothes made of mixed fabrics, gathering sticks on Sunday, etc. Is it advisable to base a society on this mish-mash of incoherent ravings?
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Val Jester
Do you mean your mishmash of incoherent ravings? The Bible never mentions Sunday as a sabbath.
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Alicia Szot
On Sunday, specifically? Then why does the Jewish population.....you know, god's chosen people.....have Saturday as the Sabbath?
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Geoffrey C. Olive
Currently in this land of freedom, there is no punishment for freedom of religion, speech or many other things that come under this umbrella including CFA's attitudes. As much as I would like to see CFA lose, they will not be removed from NJ. The same seems to apply to all the others who use the USA freedom rights, including religious zealots, to claim they are above the law and only answer to an imaginary higher being!
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ULC Rev Paul
That same book of Leviticus (11:10) also says we shouldn't eat lobster, shrimp, shellfish, squid et al. "And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you." Based on not selling any of these products I think Chic fil a should not be allowed to open.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Paul, it sounds like you're talking about the seafood gumbo I'm making next month for Mardi Gras. Shrimp, squid, octopus, scallops, imitation 🦀, and ofcourse crawfish, combined with okra, my secret base, file, and hot sauce served over a pilaf of rice. It's a good thing I don't believe in that silly book. Bacchus is a much better god to worship during Mardi Gras.
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Eugene Evans
It is the Bible that man shall not lay with man. The whole world is going along the lines of Sodom and Gorrmorah.
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Charles Leroy Good II
It is usually the man who is so against homosexuality that is secretly homosexual himself. He becomes so afraid of others thinking him as gay that all his frustration becomes focused on hating others. He is only deflecting his hatred of himself at other's expense. Where in the New Testament does Jesus say that gay is bad? Jesus doesn't. Some like to say that Jesus infers homosexuality is wrong using lots of different interpretations of scripture to support their arguments. But this is only an inference that is created by others to solidify their misplaced beliefs. God created us as we are because he loves us all. Loving one another is God's message, not hate.
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DRREVHANNAHHOPE GORDON
I completely agree with you!
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Rev Mark D
"Usually"? Nonsense. Prove it if you assert so.
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Bobby L. Roberts Jr
Evidently you as a Pastor have never gone to Seminary School or College and studied Theology. You sure don't have a clue to Apologetics, when it comes to Theology!
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
The ULC doesn't have a seminary, Bobby. You must be thinking about some other kind of ministry.
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Rev Mark D
actually I'm a lawyer in psychologist, and thus actually accomplish things for a living.
So I take it from your pivoting evading response that you were afraid of my challenge. Thank you for the concession.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Never trust a lawyer, or a used car salesman.
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Rev Mark D
I agree, I never do. That is, until you need one, right Carl? Don't worry, seeing it's you, I will only charge you triple.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I only completed a year long paralegal course with a 97 overall grade average Mark, through which I couldn't claim to be as much of a bullshitter as an attorney, but then I completed a year long private investigator course with a 99, which proves I have quite a way with words, nevertheless.
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Robert James Ruhnke
It was originally written that man shall not lay with boy, and it re translated to man as a means of political hen picking. In other words, it was an anti pedophilia clause, not an anti gay clause. But leave it to predatory Catholics and just as predatory Protestants to make it about the gays. The Bible isn’t god’s word, it’s just another group of people’s primitive interpretation of reality.
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Val Jester
Sorry dude. The Bible is the word of God. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. “Every” means even those who have refused to believe in Jesus as Lord. Choose you this day whom you will serve. Your eternity counts on it.
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Minister Wilson
Prove it...
Prove the Bible is God's word...
Owning people = good,sleeping with same sex person = bad...
These morals seem childish and all written by men
I will be looking for your proof
Minister Wilson
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Robert James Ruhnke
Val Jester, the Bible was written by men for men. Entirely disregarding the well-being and well fare of women and those deemed “other.” Threats of eternal hell, and promises of eternal heaven bore me to tears. Not only that, it’s a text written by blood thirst men who Cherry it’s rules at sword or gun point. No thanks.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Val Jester The Bible is what man claims is the word of God. The truth is the stories in the Bible are just recycled stories from other older religions. How do we know? If you study other older religions you would immediately recognize the stores they have in their religion are identical to the ones in the Bible.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
The hell with eternity! All we ever have is right now, this present moment!
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Lionheart
There is no testable evidence to prove anything you said. Your book was obviously written by many people who didn’t know where the Sun went at night.
This “knee bow” and “tongue confess” stupidity is often a string of text that Mormons often like to say. Religious blackmail will get you nowhere.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
And if that's not funny enough, Val comes from a long line of Jesters.
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Justin Theriault
The Bible is God's word Aman 🙏
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Reverend Andrew
TBH The Bible is Man's Interpretation of god's word ! unless you can give 100% pure evidence that no man/woman has ever written a any part of it that it was 100% written by god themself with no human interaction written it then it is Man's Interpretation of god's word
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Justin Theriault so is the Book of Mormon. Both we are told are God's word.
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Lionheart
It seems you are in your own here Justin. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support your claim, which of course is no different to all other similar claims of other religions when they say their writings are the word of their god(s).
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Douglas Robert Spindler
The Bible is what man claims is the word of God. The truth is the stories in the Bible are just recycled stories from other older religions. How do we know? If you study other older religions you would immediately recognize the stores they have in their religion are identical to the ones in the Bible.
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Tom
I'm no fan of Chick-fil-a for various different reasons and I personally do not eat there but the local government preventing them from building a restaurant in the town. If the city and its citizens disagree with the beliefs/message/food of Chick-fil-a the best thing to do is not give them your money and by peacefully picketing the store so that the issues you have with them can be shared with your community for them to make their own decisions.
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Alicia Szot
First of all, I have been to Chick-fil-A and was so not impressed. Now, they want to put this on the Garden State Parkway. It could work in some rest areas, but NOT in the Brookdale rest area in Bloomfield. How can you have a place that's not opened on Sundays, which is a big travel day?
Which brings another point: "The Bible says". The Jews have Saturday as their day of rest. The Christians have Sunday. Who is to say which day is the "day of rest"? Does Chick-fil-A realize that not everyone is Christian? Being Christian, shouldn't they accommodate people of all walks of life? Why can't they allow their employees to choose if they want to work or not. I'm sure there will be non-Christians willing to take a job and keep the place open on Sundays so others can have a decent meal while traveling.
Now, there's the "anti-gay contributions". Sorry, but if you own a business, why would you want to alienate ANY potential customers by funding organizations that hurt others? I'm sure there are worthy causes to donate money too. ASPCA, museums, homeless shelters, schools and environmental groups come to mind. Why does it have to be anti ANYTHING? Send kids to camp. Set up scholarship funds. Feed animals in no-kill shelters. All worthy of donations.
So, Chick-fil-A.....clean up your act and be "Christian". Walk the walk, don't just talk the talk. Embrace diversity, don't try to force your beliefs on others.
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Nicholas J Page
Never heard of them only KFC And in the UK its discriminatory to refuse Gays ,Black's Jews etc So if a fast food joint refuses people then watch out to what happens Courts time.
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Minister Wilson
For those claiming what the word of God says, I could not careless because they are essentially cherry-picking quotes. The bible condones and establishes rules for owning people as property, but somehow two men or two women having sex is not kosher?
I disagree with the article’s assertation that religion mixing with business is “fascinating” because it is actually one of the worst things that could happen for a for-profit entity. Businesses are not moral agents; therefore, they have no other requirement for conduct than what is dictated by the law or the company’s policies and rules. I do not think a company should be excluded based on its owner’s beliefs; however, cities have had no problem regulating strip clubs or bars in certain areas.
So what is the difference? Before answering that, keep in mind that selling liquor on Sunday would result in an additional fee in several townships and counties across the nation. Why? So it appears that those locations recognize and actively apply Judeo-Christian beliefs onto business irrespective of the business owner’s personal view. This is tantamount to reverse religious discrimination because there is nothing special about Sunday for business.
The business owners of Chick-Fil-A should actually be sued by the company because the owners are not acting under the best fiduciary duty of the firm. These controversies are expensive; the loss of revenue by would-be consumers provides Chick-Fil-A no strategic competitive advantage by publicly touting its owner’s religious beliefs. According to Chick-Fil-A’s CEO Cathy, “Gay Marriage Still Wrong, But I’ll Shut Up About It And Sell Chicken” https://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2014/03/19/chick-fil-a-ceo-cathy-gay-marriage-still-wrong-but-ill-shut-up-about-it-and-sell-chicken/?sh=f2d72492fcbf"
If Chick-Fil-A had some integrity besides just being closed on Sunday, they would withdraw from locations that do not support that type of business in their area. Instead, they make the case that their beliefs should be respected while at the same time not extending that same respect for others’ opinions regarding organizational fit like strip clubs, bars, liquor stores, etc...
So should Chick-Fil-A be excluded from specific areas? Probably not? Should Chick-Fil-A’s owners run around espouses their religious beliefs? Sure, but it becomes hypocritical to disregard other people’s opinions regarding organizational fit. Chick-Fil-A owners want all the glory but none of the consequences associated with those views in certain areas, and they are using the current political climate to claim otherwise.
Anyone claiming that the bible says this or the bible says that who cares, what the bible condones or not. If you are not gay, then don’t be gay, but if someone else is gay, why should the Christian bible or any bible have any authority over them in a free society.
Take all,
Minister Wilson
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John D. Partin
"Wilson", you don't care what the Word of God says because you say that people cherry pick quotes from it, but you cherry pick quotes from it, too, and only accept the bad parts in the Bible as "being the teaching of God" and dismiss all the good parts in it. That is cherry picking, too!! Rotten cherry picking, but still cherry picking!! Once again, Bible writers, not God, condoned slavery and other rotten things in the Bible because God isn't going to stop people from writing wrong things, anymore than He is going to stop them from doing wrong things and make that decision for them, which He wants them to make for themselves. So, why are you rejecting and hating God for things that He didn't say and were merely attributed to Him, and that aren't consistent with His known character of love and mercy, as demonstrated by His coordinating natural laws to make life even possible on the Earth?!! You wouldn't reject and hate other people for things that they didn't say or that were merely attributed to them. So, why do that to God, which isn't the Golden Rule of doing unto others as you would have others do unto you?!! Where is your fairness, morality, and decency in doing that, which is why I and other people, who know you here or in your life there for longer than 5 minutes (and aren't your flunkies and suck ups!) doubt that you are actually a minister?!! If you are ignoring and dismissing the Bible's teaching against homosexuality, do you also ignore and dismiss the Bible's teaching against bestiality, pedophilia, necrophilia, and other sick sexual activities or are you just cherry picking, once again, which sexual activities in the Bible that you reject and which you will accept, so that you will be popular with and accepted by homosexuals and considered "up to date" and "modern" in your "thinking"? "Priests" and "ministers", who indulge in pedophilia or fornication with women, don't make it right and can't be pointed at and used as an excuse for it by others, saying "Look what they are doing?", since even everyone's doing it wouldn't make it right. Morality isn't determined by numbers or popularity polls. We don't have to go along with one sin (homosexuality) in order to condemn another sin (slavery)! As for religion mixing with or influencing business being "actually one of the worst things that could happen for a for-profit entity", you have got to be kidding me!! Really?!! Because Christianity's having some influence on business is the reason for so many abuses and evils in business having been fought against and eliminated. Slavery was also a big business in the world and this country, supplying free labor for American farming, which the Christian inspired and led abolitionist movement finally succeeded in making illegal and eliminating. Child labor laws against overworking children in unsafe working environments also came about through Christian influence on business and government. Child pornography and prostitution and the white slave trade were and are businesses, which Christians and governments inspired and urged on by Christians have fought against and are fighting against. These businesses would never have reformed themselves without pressure from outside being put on them because corrupt people stay corrupt until they are forced to come out of it! Restaurant and hotel businesses in the South that wouldn't serve black people, unrestrictively, were finally forced to deal fairly with black people, treat them as human beings, and serve them through Christian influence on and actions against them, for which many people paid with their lives or were severely beaten and hospitalized by white racists! As Ebenezer Scrooge said to Jacob Marley in A Christmas Carol: "But it's just that you were a good man of business, Jacob", to which Jacob Marley shouted in reply: "Business!! Mankind was my business!! The common welfare was my business!!". "Business as usual" without any influence or input from Christianity would leave us with all the evils that business unrestrained by anything outside of its own interests can, has, and will come up with!!! What other evils are you and other people, who want Christianity to have no influence on business or government or anything else, opening the door for?!! A "free society", according to your definition, would allow open pedophilia, bestiality, and all other perversions!! That is why Christians and people who don't agree with you should have some say about that definition and practice of freedom in society, too, since we are affected by it.
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Minister Wilson
John,
Pointing out the parts that you and others leave out when using Christian theocracy is not cherry-picking, John.
By definition, cherry-picking is:
the action or practice of choosing and taking only the most beneficial or profitable items, opportunities, etc., from what is available
So, by pointing out all the bad parts you overlooked, it is not cherry-picking by its very definition.
You tried this God-good, man Bad thing before.
If God isn’t going to stop people from doing wrong, why do you keep trying to use biblical quotes to justify your positions?
And if God does not stand for any of that man-written stuff, why didn’t Jesus change it? (did not come to change a jot or tittle).
How would you prove your God’s character without the bible Jon?
I will not go down Damascus road with you again because you are intellectually dishonest.
So, Answer my original questions
How do you know what is considered a major or minor sin? What might be trivial to you might be important to God, right?
I also see you left out the bible’s support for slavery. Is that a major or minor sin? (God condoned slavery made rules for it and the like and never tried to stop it)
So it is okay to own another human but don’t have sex with the same sex ? Why? based on what?
Why don’t you stop eating pork because the Koran says so?
So why should anyone accept biblical authority from Christians over any other bible or religious teachings?
Stick to the topic (but thank you for leaving Nazis out of it, great improvement sir!!!)
Minister Wilson
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John D. Partin
"Wilson", the monastery hasn't published here yet my other post to you, which did mention Nazis in it, because they are relevant to this discussion, even though you deny that, since they and other evils are at the end of the slippery slope and road that you and others here are following. But I will let that post explain this more fully to you when it ever gets published here, so as to not go through all of that again here. The "most beneficial or profitable items" in anything are in the eyes of the beholder and the "most beneficial and profitable items" in the Bible to you are those that "confirm" your view of the Bible as "evil" and only the good parts in it are dismissed by you as "not cherries" because they contradict your prejudice and view against the Bible. My "cherries" aren't the same as your "cherries" in the Bible. The existence of any life in this world proves God's actual character of love and concern for us, since without His coordinating the natural forces that make life possible here, there wouldn't be any life here! Your very existence, no matter how much or vehemently you deny it, proves God's love and concern for you and the world, since if He didn't love or care about you, you wouldn't even be here to know anything about it or deny Him! That is the overwhelming proof of God's actual character outside of the Bible, but you will, as always, be unreachable by that monumental evidence of it because you have set your mind against any possibility of God's existence or love and so even that evidence of it staring you in the face and without which you wouldn't exist won't get through to you at all and you will only do what you always do and be evasive, game playing, and manipulative in this "conversation"!! That makes you intellectually dishonest, not me, and you won't go down the Damascus Road with or without me because Jesus is waiting for you down that road, as He was for Saul of Tarsus, to also knock you off your high horse of pseudo-intellectuality and pseudoscience and pseudo-sophistication, as He has done to other such people as yourself before, and make you see the truth about yourself and about Him, and you won't take any chance of that happening!! That is the real reason why you won't go down that road!! As God's revealed character in the universe clearly shows, He loves us and wants us to love each other, and so the major sins, obviously, are sins against love, which include slavery, sexual sins, murder, lying, stealing, and oppression of other people and the minor sins are those that aren't violations of love as much as those, but since there is never any answering that satisfies atheists and cynics, that won't satisfy you. That is the answer to your question of what are major and minor sins. The Bible writers supported slavery, not God, for the ten thousandth time!!! I use Biblical quotes actually from God, not man, to support my positions because they are also God's positions. People should accept God's teachings in the Bible over other teachings because God teaches actual love. I'm not a Muslim and don't follow the Koran and so eat pork. Any more stupid questions that you want to ask? You, the same as all atheists, try to cause confusion, since that is what your father Satan tells you to do for the purpose of blocking the work of God in the world, but you won't succeed!! Those are all the answers that it would do any good to tell you, and you still won't let them get through to you or do you any good!!
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Minister Wilson
Hey John,
Any discussion regarding Nazis is not relevant to the debate at hand, John, about Chick-Fil-A.
In your view, you think that pointing out parts of the bible that show contrary points is somehow beneficial and profitable to me. Why would correcting interpretive errors in the bible benefit me, John? Again you show a great deal of intellectual dishonesty because you acknowledge that the bible condones some really ridiculous things, but you have convinced yourself to overlook those things because they do not match your overall “goodness” narrative.
Can people honestly disagree with what the bible actually says? You, I presume, disagree with what the Tora or Koran says, don’t you. According to your logic, none of these scriptures could ever be wrong under your logic. Because any harmful or inconsistent parts should simply be overlooked to understand their “goodness,” right, John?
I have never claimed the bible to be evil or good; it is a book written by men for men, just like poetry. You claim that the existence of life proves God’s character and concern for us. I disagree with that assertion because it is based on your faith and not evidence. It is this assumption that I and others do not share.
You have no idea if life would not be here, so this is just your belief, and I also disagree with that assertion because it shows a fundamental arrogance in your thinking which is purely biased and misdirected.
You have no other world to compare your assumption with, so how do you know that life proves God?
How do you know which biblical quotes are from men and which ones are from God, John? Please share this information with others.
So, it appears that whenever the bible says something stupid or clearly immoral like its support for slavery, it is not God, but peace, love, and everything you find acceptable is from God.
Just like your incessant use of Nazis, John, your bible condones owning other people as property, and you have some apparent trouble rectifying that with your previously held beliefs. You cannot separate “God’s” words from the humans that supposedly wrote them. I feel for you, but your bible has moral and immoral behaviors condoned and supported by your depiction of God.
If you are not Muslim, so you eat pork, why should non-Christians follow what the bible says if they are not Christians?
I am sorry you feel that this question is stupid; nonetheless, I am trying to help you understand these similarities, not to confuse you. I am afraid you have confused yourself...
Take care,
Minister Wilson
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John D. Partin
"Wilson", you have, as usual, put a lot of evasivenesses in your post here, which are merely smokescreens for your lack of ability to face and answer my questions, but I will try to respond to them, anyway, for others' benefit here, and leave you in your confusion, refusal to actually respond, and hopeless darkness there! "You claim that the existence of life proves God's character and concern for us". If there weren't the synchronization, calibration, coordination, and maintenance of the natural forces, which only a Mind Who loves us could possibly accomplish, not a mindless universe, as you atheists pretend to "believe" (Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do--- or say!), there wouldn't be any life on this Earth, as there isn't on the other planets in our solar system. We are in what scientists call "the Goldilocks Zone" for life on this planet, where everything is just right for it to exist. That didn't happen by accident or without a Mind making it happen!! So, that isn't my belief or conclusion based on faith, but those scientists' conclusion, based on their evaluation and study of the matter. If you have any doubts about that, take them up with the men who said it, not with me, since I'm only giving you their conclusions about it. Because, of course, you know much more than they do or everything about it (in your own egotistical and pseudo-intellectual "thinking", anyway)!! Look it up for yourself the improbability or just plain impossibility of life's existing on this planet without all these synchronicities, calibrations, and coordinations coming together and meshing and interrelating perfectly that allow life to exist here!! Why should I wear myself out looking all that up again for you, to try to educate you, only to have you tell me again that "that is just your faith based bias and conclusion"!! and cast more pearls in front of swine!! Wear yourself out looking it up and educate yourself, for a change!! Here is one thing: if the Earth were even a million miles closer to or farther away from the Sun, life wouldn't be possible here!! Now, you go and hunt up the rest!! Anyone who could look at buildings or cities constructed by workmen and designed by architects, and then still say that "no people had anything to do with all of this and these buildings and cities just put themselves together and sprang up out of the ground" wouldn't have any sense and would show their bias against human beings' having anything to do with anything. By that same standard (and very much more so!!), you and other people who look at the universe, which is trillions of times more complex than any construction or architecture in our cities, and say that "no Mind is behind any of that and it just put itself together, regulates itself, and sprang up out of the void of space!!" have far less sense than those who would deny any human involvement in buildings or cities and show your bias against God!!! You have put out so much evasiveness and "intellectual" dishonesty in your post, once again, that it may take 10 or 20 posts of mine to try to wade through all of that and reply to it all and so this is going to take a while!! As usual, you have tried to transfer your own state of confusion and bewilderment on to me and say that what is going on actually with you is "my confusing myself", which you know is a lie even while you are writing it here!! But we have to try to understand and be patient with you children!! "God is love" is God's statement about Himself, not my statement about Him, and so it is God, not me, who is saying that only peace, love, and everything that He finds acceptable is actually from Him!! Non-Christians don't have to follow what God is saying in the Bible--- no, they don't!!, but they do have to suffer the consequences, which they bring on themselves, for refusing to follow what God is saying in the Bible!! You don't have to believe in a Judgment Day for it to be coming for you and everyone else. You help yourself by believing in it because, then, you will prepare for it, but it's coming, whether you believe it or not and doesn't need your permission or belief for it to be coming!!! This is all for now. More later!!
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John D. Partin
"Wilson", it is most certainly useless to try to explain Christianity to you and other atheists because the truths of the faith are only ever spiritually discerned and understood, and so talking about it with you and your ilk is like talking about colors to a blind man or speaking Greek or any other language that you don't understand to you, since you don't have the ability to understand what is being said to you. I know that you "think" that it is everyone else who doesn't agree with you who is "really the blind and unreasonable person, while you are the reasonable and wise one", but, anyway, back in the real world, the truth is spiritually discerned through Christ's teachings and not through idiotic atheistic philosophy, which has the whole universe existing and operating from no cause or Mind!! If you were trying to come up with a stupid philosophy, which is what you did, you still couldn't come up with anything more stupid than "a mindless universe running itself"!! That wins the Stupidest Idea of All Time Award!!! But, since Christ even tried to get through to the Pharisees, who were, at least, as blind as you and other atheists are, knowing full well that they wouldn't listen to or be convinced by Him, I suppose that I can uselessly try to get through to you hopelessly blind atheists, too, with no hope of ever being able to get through all of your hard heartedness and closed mindedness to be able do that, just out of politeness and for appearance's sake!! "You have no other world to compare your assumption with, so how do you know that life proves God?". We do have the other worlds in the solar system that have no life on them because they aren't in the Goldilocks Zone for life to exist as we are, and so we know that the Power that is synchronizing the natural forces to permit life to exist here is doing something for our world that He isn't doing for the other planets in our solar system. Life here does prove God's goodness and love for us!! There is your comparison, not that it will do you any good! We can separate God's words from the humans' words that wrote the Bible because He teaches Love and they teach hate. Next! Problem solved! God doesn't support immoral behavior, such as owning slaves, but only some men who wrote parts of the Bible supported that and those immoral things. There may be some truths in other religions' books because God loves all people and wouldn't leave them without any light at all, but they don't compare to the greatest amount and source of light in the Bible in just God's words and not in humans' words put into His mouth. The Nazis and other evils do relate to the homosexuality issue in Chick-Fil-A because the slippery slope and road that you and others are going down in support of that leads to all of those evils, and so they are relevant and consequential to this, even if you don't "think" so. This is all for now. More later.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
This isn't a Christian ministry Partin, but everyone whose comments get posted on this blog is a licensed ordained ULC Minister. Nobody else has access to this blog. And I'm damn sure not a Christian!
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John D. Partin
"Wilson", you and many other "ministers" in here and in the world have chosen being accepted by gay and other people and telling people what they want to hear, instead of what they need to hear, and so make yourselves those teachers who tickle men's ears with things that they want to hear, as foretold in 2 Timothy 4:3. Woe to the "physician" who cures no ills and so-called "ministers" who go along with people's sinfulness and wallow in their sinfulness and worldly "thinking" with them, so that you can all roll around in the pigsty together!! The old and true saying goes "With friends like those, who needs enemies?" because your kind of "friendship" for people is worse than any enemies that they could ever have, who can't get as close to them as you can get to them and pour your poison into their ears, minds, and hearts!! You are all the spiritual version of the Trojan Horse, that gets taken into people's company and friendship, and then your lies, half truths, attacks, evils, and treacheries come pouring out of the Horse and ransacking and turning these people's thinking and lives upside down and destroying them!!! You are false prophets and teachers, following your master Satan, who also can appear as an "angel of light" to deceive people!!! How could any actual spiritual needs be ever taken care of if all ministers were such frauds and irresponsible people as all of you are, just in it for money or popularity or whatever else is in it for you?! If you "think" that you and other people should only be told what you want to hear, instead of what you need to hear, why shouldn't that be followed suit in all other areas and not restrict that "good" practice just to religion, so that it can do its "good" work everywhere?!! Why shouldn't doctors lie to you about your health problems when you are seriously ill and tell you that you are "just fine", so that you won't get help for your problem and will die or be very sick unnecessarily?! Why shouldn't members of all other professions lie to you about what they will do for you, and tell you just what you want to hear, and cheat you, the same as you "think" that it is "good" for you to lie to your parishioners and tell them what they want to hear?!! Because that wouldn't work or be good for society and people need their true spiritual needs honestly taken care of, the same as all these other needs get honestly taken care of!! Either we are all serious about being ministers or we are just playing games here, and not telling people the truth because it's not what they want to hear or comfortable or pleasing or accepting to them and their wants and comfort are more important (and profitable!!) to some here than their needs are. All "ministers", such as yourself and others like you, are wolves in sheep's clothing (1 John 4:1)!! "Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God" (Romans 12:2). "This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness, instead of light, because their deeds were evil" (John 3:19).
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
Jesus said, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”
There are no exceptions to these 2 laws. So, by divine mandate, Christians must love: Homosexuals, Minorities, Jews, Muslims, Witches, Asians, Democrats, etc., or face God's wrath.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Jesus may have said that, but God made millions of people who spit on Jesus's words if you look at how the Japanese and Germans treated people. It's just come out just how inhumanly they treated children and women using well over 100,000 as sex slaves/comfort women.
How could God have allowed any of that to happen?
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
I think the god of Abraham & his demigod son, left this world - a lonnng time ago,
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Rev Mark D
Correct, MM. That IS what it all boils down to. My friends and I refer to these as "the big two" commandments.
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arawngraalrd
Has a corporation, a pseudo-person, any right to religious or political beliefs? What about an incorporated City?
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Minister Wilson
Good question one would think an incorporated entitiy is an incorporated entity. So considering incorporated cities as a person with rights to religious beliefs also would cause quite a quandary...
Interesting point,
Minister Wilson
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Brandon
Ok my thoughts on this is, God created us with a human body and a spiritual soul. Now it's not out human body that loves its the soul. The soul doesn't see male or female, it's sees only souls. I don't believe you can help who you love and really we are supposed to love everyone. GOD ALSO STATED THAT WE SHOULD ABIDE BY HIS LAW AND MANS LAW/GOVERNMENT AND MANS LAW/GOVERNMENT HAS GIVEN SAME SEX COUPLES THE RIGHT TO MARRY. ALSO IT SAYS THALL SHALL NOT JUDGE, GOD IS THE ONLY JUDGE AND JURY. SO I SAY LET THEY COMMUNITY DECIDE IF A BUSINESS SHOULD COME INTO THE TOWN NOT THE POLITICIANS. AND I SAY AGAIN IF EVERYONE KEEPS JUDGING LIKE THEY DO WE ARE DOOMED TO SEE HIS WRATH AND PERSONALLY I DONT WANT TO BE ON THAT SIDE OF HIM.
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Gary Richard Noce
Stop the lies, stop the hate !!!!!
This business has No business spreading hate and lies !!! Any business or groups of people that spread hate and lies are not of or with God. It is in these times everyone needs to stand up against such lies and hate. Especially when it uses our Lord's words to lie and hate. Our Lord is neither a lier or a hater. This is the bottom line in determining what/who is turely following our Lord. Don't let the twists and lies fool you. The evil one is slie and very cunning spreading hate all the time. Who do you follow ?
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John Sigley
The words Homosexual or Gay isn't in the Bible. Take time to look the origin of the words.We tend to forget that Everyone is created Equally by the CREATOR GOD,rich or poor were all made of flesh and blood. GOD loves us equally, He hates sin and can't be around sinners.
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Alexander Arends
I don't think local government, nor any government entity has a right to restrict a business from operating based on the religious beliefs of its management. Freedom of expression is what makes this country great and government should stay out of the way. Now if I personally object to the policies of a company, I have a right to not purchase at such an establishment.
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Michael Barton
Unless they've committed a crime, they should be allowed to open. Chick fil a is pretty popular. If people want it, why deny them?
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Lorna Glassman
If we don’t accept hate, fascism, and discrimination from individuals them we don’t accept it from corporations. As individuals we can only express our intolerance of intolerance by not supporting those who hate. Gods human creations are beautiful in Gods eyes otherwise we would all be exactly the same.
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Lorna Glassman
If we don’t accept hate, fascism, and discrimination from individuals them we don’t accept it from corporations. As individuals we can only express our intolerance of intolerance by not supporting those who hate. Gods human creations are beautiful in Gods eyes otherwise we would all be exactly the same.
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P. Keith Benefiel
On a turnpike, it would be a good idea to pick a franchise open seven days a week. There is a lot of traveling done on Sundays. I don't tend to ask the people who serve my food what their religious preference or that of their employer is. Be nice.
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Joe R Day
For me, I will never set foot in this restaurant, nor Hobby Lobby either. -sigh- For all their 'vaunted idealism' about ANYONE who does not meet their 'sexual orientation criteria'? If you just google their family, there is plenty of un-christian behavior displayed. "Do as I say, not as I do."
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Mrknowitall
Opinions are not scientific fact, that’s your prob.
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Ealdormon Piparskeggr Robinson
Politicians and others are weird about not actually investigating the full set of facts.
The owner of our local Chick-Fil-A franchise has been married to her wife for several years. Plus, horror of horrors, they are a mixed ethnicity couple.
When they are open, the lines at the drive up are HUGE.
The Cathy family's religious beliefs main effect on the business is being closed on Sunday.
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Alicia Szot
Closed on Sunday....a weekend day....when people are traveling on the GSP and don't want to think about a convenient place not being open when they want to eat.
Let Chick-fil-A open in another area. If people don't like that they're closed on Sundays, they don't have to go there. On a main travel road where there isn't another place for miles unless you get off the Parkway, it isn't good.
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Ealdormon Piparskeggr Robinson
That is a valid business point. Hobby Lobby is closed on Sundays' too. However, they are not taking up food vendor space on a 24/7 buusy tollway.
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Ealdormon Piparskeggr Robinson
Valid observation Alicia, and a sound business reason to turn down their application.
On a side note, am originally from West Springfield, MA. When I was a kid, we'd have family picnics in Szot park in the nearby town of Chicopee. Still have a lot of family in the area.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
If the government won't keep them out bulldozers, late at night, definitely will! It's best for the city to try peaceful means first, but when push comes to shove...
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Rev Mark D
Carl, I didn't know you went in for Sharia law.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Mark, I don't even know what Sharia law is. I'm just saying how we do things down here in South East Texas.
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Rev Mark D
This is attempted using government to restrain trade over what is a private, religious belief matter, making it unconstitutional. In particular, the aggressors are using their government power as a pretext, yes, pretext, weapon to suppress one religion (yes, that's what I said) over another. Misuse of government. Why not campaign to convince customers to simply take their dollars elsewhere? Maybe commuter customers should bypass and boycott businesses in this town altogether, see how that goes over with the city's resident taxpayers and businesses put everyone who votes for city council and mayor, and pays for them, realize the citizens financial risk that the mayor and council are committing them all to pay for by destroying trade and commerce tax revenues in the city. I can get my McDonald's, and buy my car and groceries and restaurant meals an exit down or up, or just outside the city lines for that matter.
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Michelle Lynn Isle
It's kinda hard to say that a neighborhood is demonstrating acceptance and tolerant of a group by the very act of throwing them out.
A Chicken Join is a business. There are many innocent people behind a Chicken franchise that deserve to make a living in the local area.
Throwing out people who are willing to work, do business and contribute to a community's commerce is a bad move, especially in today's economy.
Besides that, punishment isn't a right.
The way I see it, if I'm offended by a particular science exhibit, I'm not gonna take action against the poor folks who run the museum and call it justice.
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Bobby L. Roberts Jr
"Look if you deny the sins of homosexuality then you are denying the Word of God." The Word of God tells you these facts in both the Old Testament as well as the New Testament. Now let's look at the verses from both OT and NT. OT, Leviticus 18:22 states You are not to sleep with a man as with a woman; it is detestable. Lev. 20:13 says: If a man sleeps with a man as with a woman, they have both committed a detestable act. NT, Romans 1:26-27, FROM IDOLATRY TO DEPRAVITY: v.26 For this reason God delivered them over to disgraceful passions. Their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. v. 27 The men in the same way also left natural relations with women and were inflamed in their lust for one another: Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the appropriate penalty of their error. Now what do you think these two verses are in reference to? Sodom & Gomorrah as well as a few you may not heard of such as Admah, Zeboiim, and Zoar. The reason I mention the first is that it is more relevant do to the fact that Abraham was trying to make a deal with God not to destroy Sodom &Gomorrah due to his nephew Lot and his family being there (Gen. 11:27-31).
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
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John D. Partin
The Bible has its own version of "blue laws", which exist in every State of the Union against trivial and ridiculous things, and the Bible has laws also against things that were only for one period in time and place and set of circumstances in Jewish history, which also make no sense to us today. But should people not obey the laws against murder, theft, kidnapping, drug dealing, and serious crimes because they don't respect or agree with these "blue laws"? Likewise, the major sins in the Bible shouldn't be ignored and disobeyed because people don't respect or agree with laws in it against mixing fabrics, eating shellfish, gathering sticks on Sunday, and other trivialities, which came from men and not from God, and so aren't for our time or eternal, as are the laws against killing, lying, stealing, adultery, fornication, and other actual sins in the Bible. People's making up their own laws for themselves and doing what is right in their own eyes without any higher authority than just man and what everyone decides for himself or herself is chaos and anarchy, as demonstrated by the moral disintegration of our society and everyone's going their own way, as sheep who have all gone astray!! As demonstrated by NAMBLA, Nazism, Communism, and all of the waywardness and perversion of our world!!! What is all that except a mish-mash?!! If you are against mish-mashes, then be against that, and don't call the Bible "just a mish-mash" and throw the baby of good teachings and laws in the Bible out with the bathwater of "blue laws" in it that aren't even for our time, anymore, and indiscriminately lump it all together!!
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Minister Wilson
Hello Mr Partin
Still creating strawmen arguements I see. Chick-Fil-A has nothing to do with "...laws against murder, theft, kidnapping, drug dealing, and serious crimes...".
How do you know what is considered major or minor sin? What might be trival to you might be important to god right. I also see you left out the bible's support for slavery. Is that a major or minor sin? So it is okay to own another human but dont have sex with the same sex, makes your whole arguement seem silly.
Why dont you stop eating pork because the Koran says so? So why should anyone accept biblical authority from christians over any other bible or religious teachings?
And for the love of your god, leave Nazis out of it, it is Chick-Fil-A we are dicussing not germany.
Minister Wilson
(AKA Troll Hunter)
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Lionheart
You're right Minister Wilson but I don't know whether you know what you've really started by responding to John. He's very full of his own importance believing everything that only he wants to believe, with no logical supporting testable evidence. He often replies with very derogatory comments, typical of his type. I think he just needs lots of love. He very rarely has anyone agree with him with any votes. I've stopped reading his comments, it's just not worth my time. Anyway, good luck with whatever he writes back and thank you for your sensible reply. I fear it might go right over his head like most things generally do, but there's hope you might get a sensible, and respectful, reply. 🤷🏻♂️
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John D. Partin
"Wilson", to sum up my post about the relationship between Nazis and the homosexuality issue in Chick-Fil-A, since the monastery isn't putting my post up here, it is that the Nazis and other evils are at the end of this slippery slope and road that you and others are following here by catering to people's ideas and being people pleasers, instead of God pleasers. Further elaboration of the matter wouldn't get through to you, anyway, and so I won't waste any more time on casting more pearls before swine!!
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
John Dolly Partin does a much better job at singing country music, and really should stick to that.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
But Ehrman, I am one of those loud and aggressive persons you speak of, and wherever I go there I am, so are you suggesting I avoid myself? Have you ever considered accepting others how they happen to be? We can only change ourselves.
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Timothy Newell
The founder of Chick-Fil-A is not wrong in keeping Sundays reserved for the Sabbath. This is a basic Biblical principle. God blesses those on the other six days of the week when they rest for the seventh day. God Himself rested. Keeping the Sabbath is a spiritual decision, which the founder of this particular business decided to uphold from the beginning. In modern day terms we now regard as politically correct or politically incorrect, we're missing the mark altogether. Chick-Fil-A should hold to its Biblical principle of keeping the Sabbath and stay out of the political arena. One reaps what one sows.
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Lionheart
I wonder if you would hold to that same thought structure if the founder wanted the business to abide by basic Islamic principals as stated in the Quran, or any other religious basic principles as laid out in other "scriptures" that they believe to be holy and from the mouthpiece of their god(s)?
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Timothy Newell
As a Christian, I would only entertain other religions and their precepts in a debate class or a Religious Studies class. I believe in the Word of God which says to hold one day of the week to commune with the Lord. "Closed on Sunday" is right on the billboard. That's the only principle I need, regardless of the opinions of others who don't hold a Christian's godly principles. Long ago, before I got saved, I held to the belief that the Bible was based on the interpretation of men. I don't believe that anymore. Perhaps I'll take the time one day to read the Quran and get a hold of its principles, but I'd rather memorize the Bible and apply what I learn at this point in my life.
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Lionheart
Thank you for your response Timothy. I once held a similar view to religion as yourself. I preached from the pulpit, and even performed baptisms. It was my studies of the Bible using logic, and critical thinking, that helped me realize how illogical all the tales and stories were. Also, when I came to realise, with the exception of Pauls letters, that no one knows who the authors were that wrote the detailed accounts in the New Testament. We do know they were written decades later than the events mentioned, and by people who were not around at the time of Jesus. So what we have is a lot of here-say.
With our current knowledge of genetics, and other science, we of course know the illogical stories of a woman been spawned from the rib of a "first" man is ridiculous, but I'm sure to the uneducated back then, it obviously sounded very logical. With that in mind, there are so many other fallacious stories that, for me, I decided there is too much fallacy to credit anything as being truthful.
One would have thought that if there really was a "virgin birth" by a deity, the literature of the time would be replete with everyone talking about it. Most authors of the NT don't even mention it. To me, that is very odd. If that was to happen today could you see that even becoming hardly mentioned by any anyone? Even Paul doesn't refer to it.
Anyway, thank you for your comment.
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John D. Partin
Matthew Mastrogiovanni, Jesus said to love our neighbors as ourselves, not everything that our neighbors do. There is a difference! If loving everything that our neighbors do were the requirement, instead of just loving our neighbors and loving the sinners, but not their sins, Nazis, rapists, serial killers, Mafia hitmen, child molesters, drug dealers, white slavers, pimps, and all other wrong doers are still all people and neighbors, too, and so we would have to love the Holocaust and all their other evils along with loving them!! That is ridiculous and not what Jesus was saying at all!! Their sins and evils are the exceptions to those 2 laws, quite obviously!!
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John D. Partin
"Wilson", it is most certainly useless to try to explain Christianity to you and other atheists because the truths of the faith are only ever spiritually discerned and understood, and so talking about it with you and your ilk is like talking about colors to a blind man or speaking Greek or any other language that you don't understand to you, since you don't have the ability to understand what is being said to you. I know that you "think" that it is everyone else who doesn't agree with you who is "really the blind and unreasonable person, while you are the reasonable and wise one", but, anyway, back in the real world, the truth is spiritually discerned through Christ's teachings and not through idiotic atheistic philosophy, which has the whole universe existing and operating from no cause or Mind!! If you were trying to come up with a stupid philosophy, which is what you did, you still couldn't come up with anything more stupid than "a mindless universe running itself"!! That wins the Stupidest Idea of All Time Award!!! But, since Christ even tried to get through to the Pharisees, who were, at least, as blind as you and other atheists are, knowing full well that they wouldn't listen to or be convinced by Him, I suppose that I can uselessly try to get through to you hopelessly blind atheists, too, with no hope of ever being able to get through all of your hard heartedness and closed mindedness to be able do that, just out of politeness and for appearance's sake!! "You have no other world to compare your assumption with, so how do you know that life proves God?". We do have the other worlds in the solar system that have no life on them because they aren't in the Goldilocks Zone for life to exist as we are, and so we know that the Power that is synchronizing the natural forces to permit life to exist here is doing something for our world that He isn't doing for the other planets in our solar system. Life here does prove God's goodness and love for us!! There is your comparison, not that it will do you any good! We can separate God's words from the humans' words that wrote the Bible because He teaches Love and they teach hate. Next! Problem solved! God doesn't support immoral behavior, such as owning slaves, but only some men who wrote parts of the Bible supported that and those immoral things. There may be some truths in other religions' books because God loves all people and wouldn't leave them without any light at all, but they don't compare to the greatest amount and source of light in the Bible in just God's words and not in humans' words put into His mouth. The Nazis and other evils do relate to the homosexuality issue in Chick-Fil-A because the slippery slope and road that you and others are going down in support of that leads to all of those evils, and so they are relevant and consequential to this, even if you don't "think" so. This is all for now. More later.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
How do you know there is no life on other planets? We know complex organisms do survive in space. If complex organisms can survive is space doesn't it make sense could have come from another planet? Or travel from our planet to other planets?
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Reverend Gary
Not only is there life on other planets, we have colonies on the moon and mars . . . for decades.
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John D. Partin
I'm not talking science fiction here about travel from our planet to other planets or organisms coming from other planets to here or Andromedan Imperial Cruisers faster than light speeding through our galaxy and Darth Vader hitching a ride on one of them or any other merely theoretical possiblity and always laugh at Ancient Aliens on the History Channel or UFOs Discovered or any other such program, which is pure science fiction, not history!! Yes, it could all happen, but we don't know that it has happened for a fact, and so I'm just sticking to out not knowing about any other life in this solar system!!
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Minister Wilson
Hey John
Good, know apply that same thinking to your "God". Purely fiction, made up by men, not historically accurate, slave endorsing rules in sciptures. You dont know if any of it is true or not so your best answer is that you dont know. First honest thing I have heard you say "ever"...
It would seem that all my hard work writing to you has started to really sink in. That is of course unlerss you are going to argue that God is "different" and an exclusion should be made for that work of fiction.?? (Stay tuned we will see)
Very good John,
Minister Wilson
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John D. Partin
Very WRONG!!!, "Wilson", because God is, quite obviously, to all people to whom it can be obvious, different than Darth Vader or Andromedan Imperial Cruisers or any theories made up on Ancient Aliens or any other such programs, since there is no evidence of any of them at all and they truly are fictional, whereas the whole actual universe is evidence of God, thereby proving that He isn't fictional, no matter how much you want Him to be. If that isn't obvious to you, there is an obvious reason for that: you're not smart enough to get it!! The mindless universe simply isn't capable of maintaining and coordinating itself without a Mind behind it doing all that for it, by definition, and didn't create itself, as is obvious to all honest and thinking people, which leaves you out!! You don't even convince yourself with your arguments, much less me or anyone else, and know, deep inside, even if can't admit it to yourself, that you are wrong!! You deny and don't want to admit the existence of God that is staring you right in the face for the same reason that people have always denied the existence of God: He gets in the way of what you want to do and how you want to think, and your will and self-centeredness are more important to you than the Truth and what is right!! The existence of God would put moral demands on you (if you didn't just make up a God to suit yourself, as many people do!), and that is the real reason why you say that "there is no God" and then cover up that real reason with pseudo and self-serving "science" to make it look more "reasonable" and "respectable". That is the real reason why the Nazis denied God, since He would have gotten in the way of their murdering Jews and medical experiments on them, conquering countries, and everything else that they wanted to do, that is why the Communists deny God because He gets in the way of their purges and gulags and conquering countries during the Soviet era and today, that is why the French Revolution and the Marquis de Sade denied God because He got in the way of their guillotining people and sexual perversions and declaring a prostitute to be "the Goddess of Liberty" and whatever else they wanted to do!! And that is why YOU!!! and your ilk here and in the world deny God because He gets in the way of your "thinking" and living however you want, and the "science" is just a phony cover up of that real reason!! The Inquisitors and rotten "Christian" ilk claimed to "believe in God", but denied Him by their actions and so proved themselves to have been practical atheists, in case you bring them up. Since I know from your past posts that you will bring up the mention of Nazis again to say that they "aren't relevant" here, they are relevant to you because you "think" the same way about God as they and all these other people "thought" or "think" about God and dismiss Him for the same reason, and that makes them relevant here to you and like-"minded" people. I have NEVER!!!! read (not heard, since I can't hear you or you hear me through these posts!!, GET IT RIGHT!!) you writing any honest thing here!!!
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Minister Wilson
Hey Guys,
Survey says, Whaa, Whaa, whaa,...sorry John your reasoning fails, again...
We are going to do the short version today;
God can be considered a fictional character too, John. First of all mostly every culture around the world has some supernatural belief of an unproven higher power because it makes life more bearable because of all the things we don't know.
Second, prove that the universe requires a "mind" to begin or continue to operate (fiction)
Third, if God places "moral demands" on people why are there so many immoral things in your bible; slavery, incest (Adam & Eve two sons?, Noah' Ark, Killing your kids, sleeping with your drunk father, raping Mary, selling your daughter etc.,) oh,and don't forget slavery :)
Fourth, you seem to be claiming that "any person" who does not know, follow, or recognize your Judeo-Christian "values" is inncapable of knowing the truth and somehow immoral. This again shows that your take on things is really sloppy and arrogant, John.
Fifth, I noticed in your whole diatribe that you left out the mass exterminations of indigenous non christian American's that lived here.Or the Tuskegee syphilis experiments, slavery, Jim Crow, segragation and now add the mass banning of "CRT" as if that is something grade schoolers are taught. So could we then say that American Capitalism denies your "God" too? I thought this country was based on Judeo-Christian morals and values, how is it that these values do not always effect behavior or thinking.
Sixth, this rarely if ever works John, first take the log out of your own eye before removing the speck from your brothers eye. This country is no more ethical or moral than any other place this is all in your head. I mean jeez, we used atomic weapons on civilian populations John.
Was that sanctioned by your God under the do not kill part..."unless". Just stop, and read your words, it sounds like ramblings from an unstable mind, please get some help man.
Lastly, and this important John so listen carefully. Nazis for the most part did believe in "God"John. Some German soldiers stationed at the death camps and other places belt buckles read, "Gott Mit Uns". Which stand for "God is with Us". https://www.ebaumsworld.com/images/nazi-army-god-with-us-belt-buckle/1069962/
So, I think that your incessant fascination and interest with Nazi's, with all your quixotic religious zealotry, and lack of reasoning skills, is because your mind is trying to tell you that you might be acting like one...
John, please consider getting some help
Take care,
Minister Wilson
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Joe R Day
Minister Wilson... I'm impressed with your acumen and knowledge. Also, your ability to do a Point by Point rebuttal without sinking into the morass of 'He said/She said'. Thank you for the cogent reply. 'May the Universe Smile Upon You'
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Minister Wilson
Mr. Day,
I appreciate your kind words...
Best regards to you and yours,
Minister Wilson
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John D. Partin
CHL, you wrote that "many authors of the New Testament (namely, Paul, John, and Mark) didn't mention" the virgin birth and you indulge in the Argument From Silence Fallacy that "they must not have known about the virgin birth" or "the literature of the time would be replete with everyone talking about it", but there are other reasons for their not mentioning the virgin birth, such as it wasn't part of their objective in writing their Gospels or other writings. Mark and John didn't mention the first thirty years of Jesus' life because they were focused on other aspects of His life. This is explained in much more detail in Why Do We Find the Virgin Birth Only Recorded in Matthew and Luke? by Don Stewart (https://www blueletterbible.org-faq) and Why Were Paul and Mark Silent About the Virgin Birth? by Erik Manning, Dec. 17, 2021. So, go and read them and educate yourself out of your fallacious "thinking", if you aren't too afraid of doing that and shaking up your whole little world and rethinking (or thinking for the first time!) about your views!! I know that you will be too afraid to do that (you didn't get the name "Cowardly" for nothing!), but go ahead and prove me wrong about you, if you can. The first Christians, as is well known, had no reason to write down Gospels or other writings in the New Testament because they expected Jesus to return shortly to take them with him, but as time passed and He didn't return right away, they realized the necessity of written records of their faith and beliefs, and faithfully related those details to younger people to write down. Many stories in history have been passed down by word of mouth before being committed to writing, without that being seen as their "just being made up". So, it is inconsistent to make that assumption about the writings in the New Testament. Here are some examples from Argument From Silence Fails in Erik Manning's essay above. Civil War General Ulysses S. Grant says nothing about the Emancipation Proclamation, despite keeping an extensive diary. Shakespeare and Francis Bacon were near contemporaries, both ridiculously prolific writers, but neither acknowledged the other in any of their writings that we have recorded. In his detailed biography of Constantine, Eusebius glaringly fails to mention the death of Constantine's son Crispus and wife Fausta. In 41 A.D., Claudius expelled the Jews from Rome. Both the Jewish writers Josephus and Philo fail to mention it, despite tons of Jewish history. Acts and Suetonius are the only sources that describe it.
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John Sigley
We tend to forget that we are all created by the CREATOR God or whomever you believe in, were all created equally, rich or poor, No one has the right to judge any one. For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
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AnnaMarie Ingrassia
Bravo for New Jersey. We are ALL children of the same universe ! My mantra is Coexist...Tolerance.
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Alexander Arends
I think you have it all wrong, based on your mantra. If you believe in coexistence and tolerance, then you should not cheer on New Jersey, which is doing exactly the opposite of what you believe in. I can see a day where government comes up with a litmus test prior to approving a business to operate. That's scary.
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Tom
This makes me think of Karl Popper's paradox of tolerance: " Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.—In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal."
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Linda L. Lazaroff
They say they do not discriminate against religions, yet here they go! Duplicitous politicians.
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Mark Lee Hunt
If we have to mass prayer.then protest .dont go out to eat anywhere.in a day or 2 these politicians will be hearing about the lose of income from other resteraunts and have to give in.
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Johnathan A. Belton
I think the the owner is under fire for their religious beliefs and that my friends is against the law. I have a couple friends that work at Chick-fil-a and they are lgbtq2+a employees.
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Rodney Dahl
At some point “judge not” must mean “judge not”. The sooner, the better.
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Lorenzo R Garza
Well if the Jersey city officials are protesting on the basis of their “values” of immoral acts and God-less guidance, then maybe the State officials should ban the a Jersey city officials! How be dat?!!!!! Hooah!
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John D. Partin
"Wilson", your "objections" are so easily taken apart and disposed of that it is really unfair to you for you to be in this totally in my favor "contest" and for me to take advantage of you and do this to someone as unfit for debates as yourself, but you have only yourself to blame and brought this on yourself!! Let's start with your last "objection", for "The first shall be last and the last shall be first", and further validate and confirm our Holy Scriptures (which are your Holy Scriptures, too!). Some Nazis' claiming to believe in a "God", as defined by themselves, and have belt buckles which read "God is with us" and try to drag God along with their insanity and make Him "support" all that nonsense is no different than what other people throughout history have tried to do, but didn't actually make the "God" that they claimed to "believe" in the true God, anymore than it has ever done that for all the Black Muslims, Inquisitors, Klansmen with their burning crosses, and other people who tried to do that!! Anyone can say "I believe in God", since just words alone are cheap and easily said, and if that was really all that it ever took for their belief to be true, there wouldn't ever be any hypocrites who aren't living up to their alleged "belief" or people using and hiding behind "God" for their own agenda, but we all know that there are such people!! If the Nazis had actually believed in God, they couldn't have done any of those horrible things that they did to people, but, instead, would have loved people and helped them and followed God in love, not Satan in hate!! Is there any part of that you couldn't understand because even a child could understand that? So, a supposed "adult", such as yourself, should be able to understand it very much easier, if you are an adult! "By their fruits you will know them", as Jesus said, not just by their spouting empty words that they don't believe and are just using as a cover for their agenda and what they want to do. "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father in Heaven". Your "objection" shows your lack of reasoning skills. The mass exterminations of indigenous non-Christian Americans, the Tuskegee syphilis experiments, slavery, Jim Crow, segregation, and all other actual evils are no more following the teachings of Christianity than was the Holocaust of the Jews, and were not sanctioned by our and your God, but happened because of people's ignoring and disobeying God, and your saying that all of that is "people's following Christianity or God" is clearly the ramblings of an unstable mind!! Again, get some help!! This country is based on Judeo-Christian morals and values, but it is up to individuals if they are going to follow those morals and values, and God gives us all free will, so that we can choose to not follow them because He wants us to choose to do right and love Him and doesn't want robots! Why are you condemning other people's rejection of God and disobedience to His teachings when you reject God and disobey His teachings, too? That is hypocrisy on your part! The using of atomic weapons on civilian populations was also disobedience to God's will and not God's fault. It is up to the people here and everywhere if we are an ethical and moral place and you need to remove the beam from your eye if you are ever going to see that truth, instead of worrying about the speck in anyone else's eye, and stop being a blind leader of the blind as a whited sepulchre and false prophet "minister"!! You and all other people who reject God's teachings or make up "God" to suit yourselves are blinded by the god of this world (Satan)! That is God's teaching, not mine. Truth isn't whatever anyone says that it is, to suit himself or herself, but there is a standard for truth, without which it would be a meaningless term!! There is some truth in other religions because God loves everyone and wouldn't leave them without any light or truth at all, but Judeo-Christianity is the standard for spiritual truth, just as there are standards for all other measurements. Otherwise, there would be anarchy!! There are so many immoral things in the Bible because people then, as they do now, ignored what God said, and your condemning them is the pot factory's calling a single kettle "black"! There has to be a standard for truth or "truth" is a meaningless term, if everyone can make it up to suit himself or herself. Mindful synchronization of the universe can't come from mindlessness! Mindfulness not coming from mindlessness is the proof of Mindfulness in the universe. More later.
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Tom
This is some impressive mental gymnastics goin on here. Take it easy on the Kool-Aid.
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John D. Partin
Tom, where is your evidence that this is only "impressive mental gymnastics" and "Kool-Aid", since your ilk is so big on Christians and others' giving evidence for their beliefs, but never give any evidence for your beliefs, instead of just tossing out accusations without backing them up?!! Don't keep operating on and hiding behind a double standard!!
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John D. Partin
"Wilson", as I told you once before, when you can send me verified evidence of a car without a driver or being remote controlled or computer programmed or automated driving itself across country and getting its own gas and making repairs on itself, then you will have shown that mindless things can regulate and control themselves. Until then, back in the real world, what even a car can't do for itself, the mindless universe can do infinitely less for itself and didn't create itself, anymore than a car does. That is the evidence for a Mind behind the universe, coordinating, calibrating, and synchronizing it, which it can't do for itself. So, I'll be waiting for that example of a driverless self-driving car!!
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Scott Burchett
If a person is to judge another person or corporation by there religious belief then why do we think things will ever get better. If you have your belief, I have my belief and they have their belief but we respect each other then what exactly is the issue? If we want to yell and scream every time something happens that we do not agree with I am afraid we will never be able to fix a issue or be united as one. Tolerance is necessary to survive and grow. It is time to start listening and peacefully respecting a individual's choice no matter how much you disagree and then just maybe they will listen back.
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John D. Partin
Scott Burchett, tolerance has its reasonable limitations and beyond those limitations means saying that "there is no truth or right" and "every belief is as good as every other belief", which is, obviously, wrong because the Nazis and Communists had and have their beliefs, too, and those beliefs aren't as good as every other belief and we shouldn't just get along with them, for the sake of any phony and don't care about right or truth "peace". "Peace at any price" isn't a right understanding or practice of peace. Peace as far as possible with all men and women, without denying or sacrificing truth or right, is the true understanding and practice of peace. Unity at all costs by saying that all views are "equally good" isn't a "unity" worth having because, as the Scriptures say, "What union does light have with darkness? What fellowship does Christ have with Satan?".
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Alasehir1495
Hello all! Firstly, I believe in Jesus Christ and all His claims that there is no other way to be saved other than through Him alone. There is much mystery in the Bible that not all things are given even unto His angels, but one thing is certain; if we allow a judge here on earth to imprison law abiding citizens and release lawbreakers out in pubic locations as he deems so, we would call that judicial corruption. I would find it reasonable to assume people would not stand for such things, so why do most people expect God to be any less different. You can use Biblical history according to your knowledge to testify against Him assuming you understand exactly what's being accomplished by His will, it's easy to call Him barbaric or a hypocrite when you don't take the context of what is actually happening through those moments of history and it's unfortunate when this occurs, because as it is written, "And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:" - Matt 13:4 KJV God does not condone oppression, “You shall not wrong a sojourner or oppress him, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. You shall not mistreat any widow or fatherless child. If you do mistreat them, and they cry out to me, I will surely hear their cry, and my wrath will burn, and I will kill you with the sword, and your wives shall become widows and your children fatherless." - Exodus 22:21-24 ESV “You shall not oppress a hired worker who is poor and needy, whether he is one of your brothers or one of the sojourners who are in your land within your towns." - Deut 24:14 ESV There is slavery in the Bible, but consider the difference of ancient slavery compared to modern slavery; in the ancient times, it was to settle a debt or for one to find themselves in care of a household. In modern times, we often look at African slavery where there were no rights, protections, or freedoms. And in regards to the topic at hand, homosexuality is a sin; "...for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet." - Rom 1:26-27 KJV Now, there is that approach to one's sin is often looked at the sinner mistakenly, as Christians we are to profess our love for one another even so our enemies, we must remember to be compassionate with our understanding to not lead those who are lost astray, but lead them to the only one who can redeem; it is God's Word that salvation is made unto man through the life and blood that is Jesus Christ's. Homosexuality is not gene related and there is not enough evidence to prove so, as men can commit evil in God's eyes with other men so too can men with women; it is not easy to live a life departed from sin, which is to miss the mark. But if homosexuality is taught as being natural, then why is HIV one of the most leading deaths from such individuals? People don't like what God has to say, because it is course correction to a narrow path the leads away from this world onto the next, it is what God speaks. And for those who say there isn't enough evidence to prove God's Word or His existence, there is much historical documentation and archeological findings that prove His Word to be more evident than some of histories most infamous subjects. https://carm.org/about-the-bible/manuscript-evidence-for-superior-new-testament-reliability/ And if God's Word is not supernatural, then how do you explain the consistency of numbered sequences of sevens throughout the Bible? Consider Dr. Ivan Panin's research, he takes a given subject like the genealogy of Christ in Matt 1:1‑17, or a book of the Bible as a whole, and shows the following kind of phenomena:
The number of words in the vocabulary will divide by the number seven. The number of words beginning with a vowel is divisible by seven. The number of words beginning with a consonant is divisible by seven. The number of letters in the vocabulary is divisible by seven. Of these letters, those which are consonants and those which are vowels both divide by seven. The number of words in the vocabulary occurring more than once is divisible by seven. Those occurring only once likewise divide by seven. The number of words occurring in more than one form is divisible by seven. The number occurring in only one form likewise divides by seven. The number of nouns is divisible by seven. The number that are not nouns divides by seven. The number of proper names divides by seven. The male names divide by seven. The female names divide by seven. The number of words beginning with each of the letters of the alphabet is divisible by seven.
Anyhow, my only wish is for anyone who reads comes with new insight and peace, may the Lord bless those who bless Him and give to those who are without. Maranatha. Amen.
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Lionheart
Oh my goodness! I think I’ve now seen it all. Please don’t read my comment here and divide my words, vowels, and consonants by 7.
Alasehir1495, I am so sorry for whoever it was that has caused you such deep mythological indoctrination. I genuinely hope you can get through it and become well. I do hope others that have religious affiliations read your comment and tremble with the knowledge that this is how they too could become one day if they don’t get their critical thinking act together.
Much love to you my friend. 🤗
🦁❤️
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Alasehir1495
Hello there, I see that my comment caused you to believe I'm a fool, then so I am; I am fool to believe in Jesus Christ and I'm a fool to believe in any genuine discoveries that can cause study of the Bible to be more adventures than just a simple book. If then I'm mislead, then teach me so, if then I am blind then show me the way. There are those who attempt to take away hope from people all around the world in especially poor countries who have nothing, but that hope in Jesus Christ; you're free to try as if it's something new you'd be doing, but many alike have failed. If I was a fool to post; then you were equally a fool to read it, but we're all fools for something... based on your previous comments in this section, you seem to be particularly attracted to disproving God. You expressed your concern for me as I will express my concern for you, when you reach the last moments in this life, It's a sure thing to think on what happens next; if you do truly believe that there isn't anything after this world then you and I will live to our fullest, but I as a fool; my life won't be much of a departure from yours as I will continue to breath, eat, and sleep just as you do. However, when those last moments come about, I have my confidence in a place that will be everlasting paradise, whereas you are uncertain of your fate; you can call me a fool, but at least I have planned for a final destination where you still don't seem to have one other than this. I'm sorry that you have been mislead, and I'm sure you've seen much hypocrisy amongst Christians that probably helped you feed the dog rather than the child. "Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me: For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord: They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices. For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them. But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil." - Proverbs 1:28-33 KJV
I will pray for you to not give in to your own understanding with worldy knowledge, but to try again... surely there was a spark there somewhere, but got lost along the way. I don't know what truly caused you to hate God, but he does still love you... He's waiting for you to return.
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John D. Partin
CHL, if Alesehir1495s very loving and eloquent reply to you still didn't get through to you, as I'm afraid and believe that it won't because not all people are reachable by love (the Pharisees, Hitler, etc.), you will go on as you are, keeping your mind, eyes, ears, and heart closed to any love or evidence of God, and die, someday, and reap whatever you have sown by all that, even if you don't think so now. There are very many pleasantly and unpleasantly surprised former atheists (nobody then will still be an atheist!) in the afterlife, in either of its two locations. I wish that their reply to you above would be able to get through to you, but, sadly, believe that that is very unlikely or impossible because you are too entrenched in your "thinking" for that to happen and that person is too idealistic about you. Some very hard cases have been touched by God and turned around (Mafia hitmen, drug dealers and drug lords, Nazis, Klansmen, and other hateful people), but they were, at least, open to it and that isn't the case with you. If even Jesus himself couldn't get through to the scribes and Pharisees, what chance does that person who replied to you or I or anyone have of getting through to you, since your heart is as closed as their hearts were?!! Anyway, enough for now, and best wishes for your reform.
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Lionheart
Thank you for your thoughts and concern. It’s not my intention to de-convert anyone. If you have something in your life that you need, and is giving you comfort, I then say, stay with what is giving you what you need. Billions of people do the same thing that are involved with all of the worlds religions, all claiming to have the truth. You Sir are no exception.
I cannot disprove what you believe in, no more than I can disprove those who believe in fairies, or the Loch Ness Monster. I will say though, that I have no reason to believe in any god, or fairies, or Loch Ness Monster etc., until any of those things can be proved to exist, and that includes your mythical god. You can quote from an old book as much as you wish to, but that doesn’t mean to say that anything written in there is true, no more than anything written in the Harry Potter books are true.
You may talk to a wall, floor, or ceiling, as much as you wish to, under the indoctrinated belief that you are really talking to a deity, but that surely does show how deluded people are performing that practice.
I actually don’t hate anything that isn’t proved to be real, as you incorrectly state. It’s like saying I hate fairies, which again isn’t true, because we have no demonstrable evidence they are real, so why should I hate anything that clearly doesn’t exist?
Thank you for your thoughts. Love and peace. Have a happy new year!
🦁❤️
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John D. Partin
CHL, why are you calling the Christian God "mythical" when you admit that you can't disprove Him, since nothing can be mythical if it can't be disproved? "God is mythical, but it can't be disproved that He exists" is a contradiction in terms and trying to have your cake and eat it, too!! You can't honestly or consistently claim to know that people are "just talking to the floor or a wall or the ceiling when talking to God" when you admit that you can't disprove the existence of God. You can't have it both ways. You also can't honestly claim that you aren't trying to de-convert people or talk them out of faith, while you are always calling Christians and religious people "fools" and "indoctrinated", knowing full well that that will talk some people out of faith, who don't want to be or appear to be "foolish" or "indoctrinated" in your or anyone else's eyes!! Thirdly, you would have to actually know and have love and peace yourself to be able to even know how to give them to anyone else, and that excludes you from being able to do that!! Anyway, Happy New Year back at you and better thinking or some thinking for the first time and reform this year for you!!
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Minister Wilson
Hey John,
Just stop, and read what you wrote..(I'll wait)
Good, you are making a postive assertion that your "God" exist...I and others are not convinced...by your evidence
You have the burdend of proof, John
I don't think that life in this solar system, proves your God
Because that is like water saying that the hole in the ground was specifically made for me... (arrogance, and backward reengineering to support your initially preconceived notions)
I dont think you understand what you are talking about. For example, if I cannot prove that Big Foot exists, does not mean that Big Foot could exist...
If I cannot disprove that Big Foot exist (burden shifting) does not mean that Big Foot exist by default, until proven otherwise...
You can say, that the moon, stars, and the Milkyway prove God to you but those are your thoughts and beliefs, which are not evidence to others...And I think you know this, which is why I find your reasoning dishonest...
You have no idea or legitimate (evidence based on your reasoning) to claim that a God is listening to people praying, John. So stop shifting the burden.
Abscene of evidence, is not evidence of abscene.
So ya I can honestly and consistently claim that I don't know, and niether do you...So, just give it a rest...
There is nothing contradictory about what Lionheart wrote, your intentionally attempting to shift the burden to support your own misguided preconceptions and opinions because you do not have any prove and you have a difficult time accepting that...
I get it, I understand, but your reasoning skills and logic are often flawed, I hopefully oneday you will beashamed for what you wrote.
Take care,
Minister Wilson
(A.K.A Troll Hunter)
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John D. Partin
Since the monastery isn't posting my reply to you and letting me respond to your post, I'll sum up, briefly. Intricacy and design in nature prove an intelligence producing them, since they never come out of unintelligence. You don't believe that about human works of art and so it is even less true about greater intricacy and design in nature. You are dishonest in not admitting that. "God hasn't been disproved, but still doesn't exist" is one of the most stupid statements of all time, that even you wouldn't say about anything other than God!! This burden of proof business isn't a one way street, no matter how much you want it to be to suit yourself and tailor the game only to favor yourself and discriminate against Christians, but you also have to provide proof of your beliefs. If mindless things can regulate and drive themselves, as you claim is what is happening in the universe without a Mind behind it, send me a verified example of that: a self-driving driverless car that isn't remote controlled or computer programmed and driving itself across country and getting its own gas and making repairs on itself, which should be child's play for you to come up with, if the universe works the way that you say that it does. If you can't even demonstrate that "reality of how the universe works" on the small local scale, you can forget all about that working on the universal scale. I'll be waiting for your example very soon!! My original reply was much better and more extensive, but they aren't posting it and so if they even post this, it will have to do, since I'm not going over this again and again!
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Minister Wilson
No, Bad John,
You are the one claiming that there is a "mind" running the universe; please, provide proof of this...
It is not anyone's job to disprove your assertion John; it is on you to prove it.
You are attempting to introduce the same debunked rationale of "complexity", John.
However, as I said before, complexity necessitates that one thing is compared to another thing. For example, how do you know what is "complex" compared to what is "simple". Are simple things not made by God also? What does a world without a God look like, John? Would everything be super simple?
And any argument based on complexity, most definitely, does not prove that a Judeo-Christian God did it.
There are some significant flaws in your reasoning;
1). Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence...
The fact that there is no proof of any God does not mean that there is proof for God to be found. We are in a perpetual state of no knowledge to base a conclusion one way are the other. So, that in no way gives you or anyone else the right to presuppose your beliefs in that knowledge gap.
So, ya John, you can tell someone to squint real hard at Venus, whilst turning their head to the east, and claim that baby Jesus did all this, yet there is no proof for that assertion.
2) Your presupposing design without proving design is necessary and sufficient.
If you look at the world and everything in it, on it, and around it, and say, God did this because the "Bible" told you so, you cannot expect that everyone would just fall in line with that thinking. You presuppose this without proof to base those conclusions, other than your holy book.
I will not answer the driverless car question with Tesla, Ford, are any other electric automated vehicle manufacturer because those vehicles have all been programmed, John. And based on current evidence, We are not programmed by a God, John, and if that is your claim, then once again prove it.
I am not playing around with you. Your logic and rationale have severe issues because your thinking is arrogant, anti-social, and lacks compassion. You have exhibited a particular view and demeanor that is off-putting with long tirades and a holier than thou complex.
If you really believed that your Judeo-Christian God created everyone, why would you write and say what you do to God's creation? If your answer hinges on combatting evil or some sort of spiritual struggle with Satan's demonic forces, then you really need to ask yourself why you, what makes you so special?
Therefore, we ignorant heathens or heretics do not deserve any respect from you or anyone else for asking questions and pointing out the apparent lapses in proof for most of these assumptions then; hey John, you just are wrong.
Take care,
Minister Wilson
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John D. Partin
Very Bad "Wilson", I have told you repeatedly that the complexity in the universe is proof of God's existence, even if you don't think (and why would that be any different than the rest of the time with you?!!) that intelligent design and complexity in the universe prove that there is anyone who is responsible for that intelligent design and complexity. Because, of course, "paintings, statues, and buildings, and all other human creations are just spontaneously or gradually making themselves all the time without any human beings needed to design or create them", in your disturbed and illogical viewpoint, anyway, or would be if you were consistent in your view that intelligent design and complexity in the universe, far more than on Earth, "don't prove the existence of a God Who designed and arranged it"!! You have admitted that you can't even provide one example of a mindless car driving itself and getting its own gas and making repairs on itself, oh, but, yeah, "the whole rest of the mindless universe takes care of itself and controls itself"!! And, according to you, I'm "the illogical one", instead of you being the illogical one, quite obviously!! That is the caliber of "mind" that I'm dealing with here!! It is because God would make moral demands on your life and impose on it and you don't want that, that you refuse to accept any evidence of His existence, since if His existence didn't impose on or make demands on you, you would have no problem with admitting that "Yeah, obviously, intelligence in the universe proves that there must be an intelligence that is responsible for it, since this obvious design never happens by accident", and our discussion and debate would have been over long ago!! If we were talking about any other humanly created thing, even you would admit that somebody made it, and so your denying that there is something behind even greater design and complexity in the universe can only be because it would impose on and interfere with your life if you made that admission, since, then, it's not just your will that matters anymore, unlike with admitting that human creations were designed and created, which make no demands on you. That is your dishonesty here!! That is why people have always denied God's existence and so it is the same with you!! Fake "scientific" posturing and games are just your cover for the real reason for your atheism, to make it look "more reasonable and respectable". Arguing with you about God's existence is like arguing with a hard core Nazi about Jews or a hard core Klansman about black people or any other bigot about his bigotry because your anti-God bigotry doesn't allow you to see or admit any evidence of God's existence. The "lapses" that you "see" (or pretend to "see") in any proof for God are because your mindset and self-centeredness won't let you "see" anything other than "lapses", since admitted proof would undermine your delusions about yourself and the world and shake up your whole little world!! You will never "see" anything other than "severe issues, arrogance, anti-social thinking, lack of compassion, off-putting demeanor, tirades, holier than thou complex", and other nonsense that you can "think" up about my or anyone else's telling you the truth until you have opened your heart and mind to receiving the truth, and there is no proving anything to you until then!! I'm not playing around with you anymore or wasting any more time on you until you have opened your heart and mind to receiving proof of God's existence, without which nothing will ever be proved to you, anymore than I waste my time talking with other bigots!! Like all other people who have been blinded by the "god of this world", Satan, you deny that you have been blinded by him and mock the idea. Why would you be any different than anyone else? Your denials of that don't make it not the truth!! You make yourselves not worthy of respect and that isn't being done to you by me or anyone else. Talking any further with you would be just more of an exercise in futility until you have made yourself open to receiving the truth. Let me know if you ever get there. Until then, don't waste your time or mine!!
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John D. Partin
A world without God wouldn't be super simple, but wouldn't exist at all and nobody would be here to doubt God or do anything else. The atoms and molecules even of simple things are complex and wouldn't exist without God. The Judeo-Christian God is the true God and so, of course, made everything. This is only for people who are open to receiving and accepting the truth, which leaves all others out!!!
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Minister Wilson
Hey John,
Please insert proof here____________
You keep saying the same thing are you trying to convince others or yourself?
What told you that JDC god is real, or the main one?
Insert proof here_____________
Hey, enough of this one true Santa Claus because you read he had reindeers stuff...
I can read, prove what your claiming without using the bible to prove the bible schtick circular rationale it is not effective....
If you have no proof then hey welcome to the club
Stop acting like a christian jihadist John, and back up your claims with something other than your personal views on stars and cars...
Take care,
Minister Wilson
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John D. Partin
"I don't think that life in this solar system proves your God" because you "think" that complex and intricate interrelationships just happened without any Mind behind them, which doesn't happen even locally on the small scale and so is even more impossible on the universal scale!! You don't think logically or consistently at all, while claiming that it is other people and myself who "don't think logically", in a total inversion of reality!!! You would only have to go to Lourdes, France and other miraculous healing sites or read online about people's receiving answers to prayers and their or other people recovering from illnesses or injuries after prayers have been said for them to learn that prayers do work, but you are too afraid to do so because it would shake up your whole little world and make you rethink everything and you don't want to do that!! Enough time wasted on you again for now!!
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Minister Wilson
No John,
I think that life changes happen over time through "evolution". Which currently stands as our best explanation for biodiversity.
If you have a better take, then prove it.
How life began and how life changes are two separate things. You want to believe that a God created this world, but you will not hold "it" accountable for anything terrible that happens in it.
I do not know how life began on this planet.
And no evidence suggests a God, let alone the "Judeo-Christian God" specifically, created everything; you just want everyone to believe that.
So, John, I think we have moved way past Chick-Fil-A because if you really believe that Love came from God, then if two people who love each other want to marry, what difference does their biological sex make to you personally, without all your bible quotes.
When did you choose to be hetrosexual, when did you chose to follow God's word a be straight? How many gay tendencies do you still have left?
The Bible gives people an opportunity to believe and say some really dumb insensitive things and then feel justified for doing it.
If you consider that a "good" thing, you're missing the point.
Take care,
I am done with this conversation,
Minister Wilson
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John D. Partin
I'm writing this for other people here who are still open to listening to and receiving the truth because you and your ilk here are too far gone and self-satisfied to ever be gotten through to, as were the Pharisees before you, and so I'm not wasting any more time on you!! The Bible doesn't "give people an opportunity to believe and say some really dumb insensitive things and then feel justified for doing it" because "love your neighbor as yourself", "love one another as I have loved you", "do unto others as you would have others do unto you", "Inasmuch as you have done it unto the least of these, my brethren, you have done it unto me", "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whoever believes in him might not perish, but have eternal life", "in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth", and other teachings of love and truth aren't dumb or insensitive, and it is ridiculous for you or your ilk to say that they are!! Evolution still needs to be guided and can't do that for itself, since it is only another mindless force.That requires God to guide it and so we keep coming back to God, no matter how many obstacles and alternatives and other answers that you want to put up as "explanations", which are still mindless and need to be controlled!! I won't keep going over and over endlessly with you about the evidence of God's existence found in intelligent design because that is more exercise in futility until you have opened your heart and mind to receiving that evidence!! If only the feeling of "love" matters between two beings in order for them to be "married", then why shouldn't people and their pets be "married", if biological sex or species differences don't matter, but only "love", "all-excusing and justifying love", is what matters?!!! How ridiculous that is and would increasingly become following that "logic" to its final conclusion!! There has to be a standard for marriage and love, the same as for everything else, or they don't mean anything any more, other than what everyone makes up for himself or herself, which is chaos and anarchy!!! Enough said for now for other people here and you and your ilk can go on in your mind numbing darkness and ignorance!! This isn't not loving toward you or anyone else because Jesus loved the scribes and Pharisees and moneychangers in the Temple even when He called them whited sepulchres and a brood of vipers or overturned their counting tables and said "This is a house of prayer and you have made it a den of thieves!", since that was tough love and is tough love for you, too!!!
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John D. Partin
The corruption through sin of the good world that God created is responsible for the evil in the world, for those here who are open to receiving and accepting the truth. People are born straight in accord with God's original will for man and nature, and only become gay through the corruption of nature. The evidence of God's existence has been given over and over again (order and design in the universe), and won't keep being given, by me, to someone without ears to hear it or mind to know it, but only to those who are still open to receiving and accepting the truth.
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Minister Wilson
Nope,
Once again your not listening
God = good / Man = bad (reductionst)
Your still claiming that being gay is a choice John, so when did you choose to go straight and be right with the lord john?
You have not provided any evidence about design..Scientific understanding helps create models that can then be used to forecast or predict things..
What does intelligent design predict? How can we prove innteligent design is false?
Your depiction of reality appears warped and I fear that you are the one that cant hear or understand what you are saying...
See, the best claims John are those that can be falsified, not just personal hunches, or strong feelings. Your trying to contort the world around you into what you feel it should be, but not everyone thinks or feels as you do...
Please, seek help, you need to talk with someone about this or it may ruin personal relationships, encourage violence (like jihadist) , or cost you your freedom..
I would not like to see any of that happen to you, get help...
Take care,
Minister Wilson
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John D. Partin
"Wilson", some people's being gay through a corruption of their human nature isn't a matter of their personal choice. Once again, as always, you haven't understood what was said to you and so your reply is only a strawman. Go ahead and live in delusions, if you want, but I won't waste my time responding who doesn't understand what they or I am saying---and never will!!!
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Minister Wilson
Whose choice was it ? John
Please enlighten us, because it seems whenever you start to realize that you cannot explain your own made up rhetoric you claim that others arent listening or are unable to understand your deep unnatural relationship with god's spirit.
I am listening we all are...
Minister Wilson
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Alasehir1495
Hello everyone! I see there is much heated debate amongst each other on this or that; what I can testify on is this. As I stated before, I believe in and follow Jesus Christ, why? Well, for me yes... it was a sense of a lack of fulfillment in my life and initially is was primarily experiential. Although, for any rational thinking person, experience is temporary; so it wasn't enough to experience something good, but rather seek the root of the cause of that experience. You don't have to have faith in God to be happy, but ultimately; you should ask yourself, "If I value my life and know the evidence thereof, where does the value begin and end?" I would say most people value their life, we desire purpose, establish goals, and enjoy our relationships, but why? If ultimately, we perish; then our idea of value is obsolete. That is a very dim view of one's life, I can't prove anything to you and the same anyone can't prove anything to me. If evidence is what you need to believe, I would argue otherwise; because just looking at the Jewish throughout their history, especially in Exodus, where God demonstrates His power through many great wonders, but yet despite that showcase of events, they turned away from God. If someone is claiming they can only believe in something until proven, they are being intellectually dishonest with themselves. Why do you need someone to prove you anything? "Pilate saith unto him, What is truth?" - John 18:38 So why don't you seek truth or are you just relying on what people tell you is truth? You have a rational thinking mind, use it! Is there evidence that what the Bible says is historically accurate or is it not? Obviously there are mythologies, but the Bible speaks about real people and real locations that are historical and geographically present today. Mythologies such as ancient Egyptian, Greek, and Norse speak about persons (gods) and locations that have no eyewitness accounts of ever existing, that says something to me. Anyway, my hope with this is that no one is close minded and that includes myself and others alike who believe to not just settle their faith by saying just because... no, know what you know and if you believe your viewpoint, then what is the basis of that evidence? "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:" - Matthew 7:7
God bless...
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Alasehir1495
I just want to add further insight, food for thought or in the case of this article, chicken for thought! When I hear someone speaking about science as the ultimate reason for anything and everything, that is scientism; and all I can say to that is a very shallow way of living life and closed-minded. Are you telling me you scientifically observe your goals and relationships in life with science? You can't live like that, you're gonna be more alone than you can possibly prove scientifically. Obviously there is an evolutionary process to things in life and science explains that very well, but science can't explain the meaning of life and cannot explain the origin of life. And do be sure if you're speaking about science of origin, you are speaking philosophical origin. If you rely on the Big Bang theory, well for one: that's a theory not fact and secondly do you find it more reasonable to believe that life came from non-life, that concienceness came from the conscienceless or that there may be a creative designer behind it all? From my observation of my life, I've never once seen a human come from a rock and if you have, please show me. From my observation of life, I've only seen plant life from plant life, animal life from animal life, and human life from human life. To say that we all just exist by chance takes a huge leap of faith I can't have. There are too many complexities of the human body and how the world just conveniently supports that complexity to say, well it just happened. Even some of histories greatest philosophers changed their mind and many still today are changing, a whopping 76% of doctors today believe in God; so faith in God isn't for the gullible. Ultimately, as I somewhat stated previously; it is not for a lack of evidence that one refuses to follow Jesus, but rather that all of us by desire want to live according to our will and that is the summary of sin.
God bless...
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John Komorowski
I agree and commend your statement. Me thinks Kathy hates herself as well. Pity.
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John D. Partin
Joe R. Day, you are too easily impressed by something that you want to believe in the first place. That isn't objectivity on your part. I take apart and dispose of "Wilson's" alleged "objections" to my post above in my post below, if you are, at all, disposed toward being fair and balanced in your thinking and considering the other point of view. Go and read that and be honest and fair in your review, instead of one sidedly dismissing it.
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Minister Deidre
Honestly, this is a company, not an individual. They don't have the same religious freedoms that individuals do.
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John D. Partin
I'll be looking for your proof of a self-driving driverless car driving across country and getting its own gas and repairing itself, which, if you can't send it, is also your proof for God because what even a mindless car can't do for itself, the infinitely bigger mindless universe can do even less for itself and not at all. The Bible is proved to be God's Word because the love, forgiveness, mercy, and goodness in it don't come from any human beings, who would only write the same kind of things that you and other God-rejecting people write in here and write and say in the world, and that those actually God-rejecting Bible writers put into God's mouth and attributed to Him!! So, I'll be waiting for your evidence of a self-driving driverless car, which you should be able to send me very quickly, if the universe works the way that you say it does.
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Helen Morrison
Easy solution - require all restaurants at travel stops like rest stops and airports, be open 7 days a week. It is a matter of health and safety for travelers.
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John D. Partin
Oh my goodness right back at you, CHL!! How can you call anyone else's thinking "wrong, mythological or sick", considering your own very wrong "thinking" and ignorance in not knowing about the Argument From Silence Fallacy (thereby, invalidating your view that the Gospel writers "didn't know about the virgin birth"!) and your belief that "a mindless universe is running itself, in the absence of any Mind behind it to run it", according to you, and your former (or still present) support of Trumpelstiltskin, and all your other clearly WRONG!! "thinking"!!! People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones!! If the worst that could be honestly said about you were that you divided words, vowels, and consonants by 7, you would be doing and thinking 10,000 times better than you are now!!
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John D. Partin
CHL or anyone else here certainly has the right not to respond to my posts or anyone else's posts that they wish not to respond to. That isn't in doubt or question at all, but only why he isn't responding. He claims that it is because "I'm not worth his time and am beneath his consideration", to excuse his inability to respond, whereas I know that it is actually because he can't answer any of my questions or respond to my points at all, and so blows out this smokescreen of "not worth my time" to cover that up!! The same as was the case with John Owens, who stopped responding to my posts, telling himself the same thing, because he couldn't answer my questions or points or explain why he didn't openly and vehemently oppose Nazism, but only opposed liberalism, saying that he didn't "want to be goaded into it", while all other actual opponents of Nazism wouldn't have to be goaded into saying so, but would have to be restrained from saying so. So, John Owens proved himself to actually be sympathetic to Nazism, at least, or even subtly pro-Nazi! CHL, similarly, proves himself to be hateful, despite his denials, by his constant condemnations of Christian beliefs. My posts here directed at him aren't only for him, but for all those here who can listen and agree with them and learn from them, and for his ilk here who aren't hiding out and will respond, and he needs, as I told him before, to come down off himself and his ego and stop "thinking" that everything is about him!!
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David Locker
If you believe in the mainstream theology of God, you believe that God gives us choices. If you are fortunate enough to be in a position to choose your partner or what doctrine to follow. You can probably choose what resteraunt to support as well. My prayers are for the people being robbed of those choices. For whatever the reason.
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Vicki Larson
Hypocritical! They had gay relationships back then!! NO ONE, has a right to deny someone’s love for another!!! Everyone has a right to be LOVED!!
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Richard Lee Cornell
The bottom line is the taxes it will bring in to the city.
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John D. Partin
William Dusenberry, nobody who admits, as you do, that your "Doctor of Divinity" degree is as worthless and so phony as is every other DD degree, has any room to talk about Jesus' being "mythical", especially since Jesus has been proved true by two thousand years of love, devotion, sacrifice, and commitment to Him, and Tacitus' historical reference to Him in the Annals of Imperial Rome, which have been verified and attested to by college professors who know more about it than you do and have overruled you, whereas you don't even confirm your own degrees as genuine and aren't confirmed by anyone else here or in the world!! You are mythological, compared to our dear Lord Jesus, and the whole pot factory's calling a single kettle "black"!!
There is here this Dusenberry quack, who does our dear Jesus attack and calls Him "quite mythical", as do all inimical, but can't his own titles up back!
If he were as real as ourJesus, he would so very much more please us, and throngs would acclaim him, instead of now name him a monkey by the title of Rhesus!
His self admiration is comical and makes us all so very vomital, and sick of his ego and wishing that he go as far off as possible from it all!
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Kerry Ann Michel
Do you know, I love reading your comments!
The forum upon which you type them, opens by saying, "Be ordained and impress your friends" And then, you dear, sweet, pompous, (mostly) fellas try to make the image in your head/s fit into the comments of the previous commenter.
It's like watching a person describe a dream they've had - you ought to try that sometime!
The God in whom I have faith, will no more fit into anyone else's frame than, for argument's sake, Alice in Wonderland ever has, or Xanadu, come to that!
Until we can - fully and reliably - transfer a dream from your head to mine.
Bless you all - in whatever way you consider appropriate, and thanks for the fun.
If the Bible says that man shall not lay with man why did it create homosexuals, bisexuals and non-binary individuals? One in every 200 live births results in a being who has some non-binary chiastic?
If the Bible says that man shall not lay with man is it okay for two hermaphrodites lay with each other?
God is a sadist. Pure and simple. To punish his creations, for the way he made them.
I agree, the mythical Christian god was a very naughty person by all accounts as stated in the biblical tales and stories. Some people obviously had quite an imagination back in the day. You'd have thought they'd have had something better to do with their time. It's a good job they didn't have Twitter, Facebook, Instagram etc., back in those days, we'd be having all sorts of gods being created. Who'd have thought though that stating a woman came from a mans rib, or a god impregnated a virgin, would have actually been believed in this day and age. And sadly, these people have the power to vote. 🤷🏻♂️
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Who'd have thought that a man who is known to be a liar and told thousands of verified lies during his term as "President" would be believed by so many people, or who told them to their faces that he could shoot someone right in front of them on main street and they would still vote for and support him would actually continue to support and vote for him and be that gullible, or that an incompetent business manager would be considered a "great and successful businessman" would be believed in this day and age!! And sadly, these people have the power to vote and effrontery and hypocrisy to consider themselves "superior" to Christians or anyone else and their own "god" Trumpelstiltskin not to be actually a figment of their own imagination and propaganda and brainwashing, and so mythical?!!
First of all, Matthew Mastrogiovanni, God doesn't punish people for the way that He made them because He made them good and they corrupted themselves. Secondly, people punish themselves and send themselves to Hell, the same as criminals send themselves to prison by committing crimes, which nobody put a gun to their heads to force them to do! Likewise, any people who end up in Hell have only themselves to blame (which is part of their Hell, knowing that they did that to themselves and put themselves there!) because God tried all of their lives to reach them with the truth and love, and they pushed God away, turned their backs on Him, and rejected Him!! Please don't let that happen to you, too, or you will regret it and be miserable over it for eternity!! People keep themselves in Hell because, as C.S. Lewis wrote "The door to Hell is locked on the inside" and coming out of Hell is as simple as changing your attitude, on this side of the grave, anyway. Another Italian, named Bartolo Longo, was also a Satanist and enemy of God, as you are, but was transformed by the renewing of his mind (Romans 12:2) into becoming a devout Catholic and Christian, and the same could happen to you, if you open your heart and mind to Him!! Even Mafia hitmen have come out of all that hatefulness and evil into the light of God's truth and love, as did Saul of Tarsus, who became St. Paul. It is never too late for you to change!! God bless you and keep you!!
John D. Partin; It's a scientific fact that people are born gay, straight, Bi, whatever. That means that the god of Abraham, made them that way.
That makes god a sadist, for punishing his creation, for the behaving in the way that he made them.
Think about it. Considering how cruelly the LBGTQ community is treated by Abrahamics, why would anyone choose that lifestyle?
You are right on Matthew, but sadly, due to lack of education, or pure stubbornness of deep indoctrination, some cannot see it.
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There is a well documented brain operation to "cure" a disease which has the side effect of making one a pedophile in 9% of the people who have the operation.
Remember one out of every 200 live births results in the person having some kind of sexual abnormality.
Are you thinking of a lobotomy Douglas?
I'm not aware of your data, listing 1 out of every 200 live births having a sexual abnormality. What in your mind constitutes a sexual abnormality? That term seems to have changed clinically over the last century.
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There wide variety of sexual abnormalities. Some examples are Women who have a penis. Men who have well developed breasts who can express milk. Women who have two vaginas. I have never heard of anyone with two penises. Then there are people who are neither sex. When it comes to chromosomes there are X0, XXXX, XXYY, XYXY, XXXXXY etc. Then there are the brain/hormonal abnormalities. There are women with male levels of testosterone and men with female levels of estrogen. Then there are people who have high levels of both or low levels of both. The hormones have an affect the brain which affects if one is attracted to males, females, both or neither. And then hormone levels can change over time, so nothing is permanent.
There many many more sexual abnormalities. It affects one out of every 200 of use.
Yes I am aware of those types of sexual abnormalities, but I'm not aware it's as high as 1 in 200.
You will see here it lists:
"About 1 in 400 male and 1 in 650 female live births demonstrate some form of sex chromosome abnormality, although the symptoms of these conditions are generally much less severe than are those associated with autosomal abnormalities."
https://www.britannica.com/science/human-genetic-disease/Abnormalities-of-the-sex-chromosomes
So, I'm wondering where your data is coming from?
Thank you for your reply.
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Those stats are for just for sex chromosomal abnormalities. There are other factors, such as hormonal, neurological, epigenetics, and physical which contribute to the number of sex abnormalities. When combined it’s one out of evert 200. I’m sure you are aware the sex chromosomes alone do not determine the sex of an individual, other non-sex chromosomes are involved as well. As a side note, you know we all start out life as females. And under the influence of hormones male characteristics develop.
Thank you Douglas. Yes I'm aware we all start out genetically as female but don't tell macho men that. It's the last thing they want to hear 🤗
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I could probably tell you where he got his stats, but you'd need to use some TP.
CHL, are you admitting that it is your lack of education (about the Argument From Silence Fallacy and many other things) and pure stubbornness of deep indoctrination in atheism that keep you from seeing the truth of Christianity?!! That claim can't only be made by you against Christians, but also by Christians right back against you!! If you are admitting that about yourself, it is about time and long overdue!! There may be hope for you yet, in publicly confessing your faith in Christ!!
Matthew Mastrogiovanni, gay people aren't the only people who are being asked and expected not to just do what comes naturally to them in the Church because that is being asked and expected of straight people, too, to not just give in to whatever desires they have for sex, gluttony, anger, and the other sins, but to exercise self-control. Why should gay people be excluded from having to exercise self-control when nobody else is being excluded from having to do that?! That is a double standard and hypocrisy and favoritism for them! Rapists might be born with a rapist's gene and naturally predisposed toward rape. The same for serial killers, racists, those who like sex with animals, child pornographers, pedophiles, and all other perverted people: all naturally predisposed toward doing what they do. So, if naturally predisposed toward gayness is acceptable as an excuse for homosexuality, why shouldn't it be an excuse for what all of these other people are naturally predisposed toward, too? And, if not, aren't we "discriminating against them", from their point of view, anyway? Where do we draw the line after saying that natural predisposition is sufficient reason for a behavior? Many of them don't think that they are causing any harm to others, either, whether they are or not. "Not doing harm to others" is, very often, in the eyes of the beholder. The point of Christianity is rising above just what comes naturally to us, for everyone, not just gay people. So, we can't excuse them from that without being unfair and unreasonable to everyone else. Anything's being natural (and I agree that homosexuality is natural) isn't necessarily an argument in its favor when nature itself is corrupted. If our own father's aren't sadists just because they have rules for us to follow in their houses, God isn't a sadist because He also has rules for us to follow in His house, especially since He has a much larger perspective and responsibility for us than our fathers do. It isn't only "Abrahamics" who have been cruel toward gay people, but also many ungodly people, too. So, why just blame "Abrahamics" for that? Cruelty toward gay people or any other group is wrong, but expecting gay people, the same as everyone else, to exercise self-control is just fairness and justice.
I am amazed and angered at your 'reasoning' sir! You need professional help with your 'issues'...
The same standard for gay and straight people's needing to control themselves and not just do whatever they feel like doing sounding "unreasonable" to you and your being angered and amazed by it shows that you are in need of professional help!! When did one moral standard for all, instead of a double standard, become psychotic?!!
Where is the evidence of anything you posted? Before anyone can take your comment seriously, you need to prove god exists. Find the evidence and then show it to the world.
There has been absolutely no evidence that your, or any other, god exists. You believe something for which there is no evidence. None at all. Zero evidence. Nobody has ever shown any evidence of the supernatural. Just because you believe it, doesn't make it true.
Also, if you're talking about the god of the bible, he's an immoral, insecure, genocidal, misogynistic racist. The evidence of that is in the bible.
Whoa Amy, you're making too much sense here... 'Prove Gawd Exists' or 'Prove Gawd Doesn't Exist' are foibles and have been been sought for centuries. Neither are possible (JMO of course). So we are are left with the 'detritus' of religion and the Belief in Gawd as the theallpowerful entity governing Everything... As a lowly human who loves his Lady and his Furkids and his fish and his Life? I have sidestepped the gawd issue and put in place, the How Can I Help program. It feels a bit better and I am not attempting anymore to please a mystical being who peers into my bedroom. Well written Amy.
Amy Varela, the entire universe is the evidence of God's existence, since it didn't create itself and doesn't regulate and control itself, being a mindless thing, and so needs a Mind behind it to regulate and control it. God isn't immoral, insecure, genocidal, misogynistic or racist, but was only written that way and won't stop Bible writers from doing that and take away their free will, and wants people to choose to love Him and tell the truth about Him.
The theological answers of the last two thousand years are the only answers available for those who want to question God's existence, and satisfy all those who can be satisfied, but, of course, nothing can satisfy those who can't be satisfied by anything and won't accept any evidence of God's existence, anyway, since it would disrupt their whole little world. And answers can't be made up to suit them. So, there is no point in talking any further with them.
MAN wrote the bible . . .
I have said that many times and pointed out the 'revisions' that took place several time through history. I am always met with 'Divine Guidance' guided their hand... Pfft. Gandalf said "Every good story deserves embellishment." Embellishment was in all it's Splendor during the writing of The Guide to Being a Human, as per Gawd... Well said sir.
The Bible tells us that,
“a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.”
Stand back, all of you, and take a look at the divisiveness all these blogs on U L C are creating! Is this even remotely what we are about? Do any of your want to be remembered by the divisiveness, the anger, the hate you help create at the direction of the leader of U L C?
Douglas, there are homosexuals, bisexuals, and non-binary individuals because of corrupted nature, not because of God, the same as pedophiles, zoophiles (those having sex with animals), necrophiliacs, and other perverts exist because of corrupted nature, and so if homosexuals, bisexuals, and non-binary individuals should lay with each other, so should pedophiles and bestialists and other perverts lay with the objects of their perverted desires, by that "logic" and standard!! That is ridiculous and sick!! Men and women should only have sex with the opposite sex, by originally natural design, according to God, and that within marriage. Hermaphrodites would be identified as primarily male or primarily female by their overriding sexual orientation and foremost sexual organs and then would have sex in marriage only with the opposite primary sexual organ people from themselves, and when their sexual organs and desires are equally balanced, they should abstain from sex. Hermaphrodites wouldn't be right in or allowed to indiscriminately use men's or women's restrooms. Other people shouldn't be imposed on because of these people's confusion over their sexual identity, since that is overstepping their rights and boundaries.
How could there be corrupted nature when the God tells us everything he created was good? Are you saying God almighty makes mistakes?
You will find these people are not confused over their sexuality. It's society, and typically the older members of society who are critical of other people's sexuality.
Thankfully the younger non-Christians are more accepting and loving than are Christians of people who God made slightly different. It's not their fault God screwed-up when they were made?
Douglas, nature is corrupted because, though God made it good, it was corrupted by man's disobedience to God's will, which affected not only himself, but all of nature, too. God didn't and doesn't make mistakes, but man does and people do. It isn't loving people to tell them that "anything that they want to do is good" and that distortions of nature are "good", but is hating people!! God didn't and doesn't ever screw up, but corrupted nature does screw up!! It isn't societal prejudice against them that makes them abnormal, but their own state of being that does that, and they still shouldn't indiscriminately use male and female bathrooms and impose their abnormality on other people!!!
@John D. Partin Not sure how you can say God doesn't screw up. Isn't the Bible the word of God? Could I ask you to take a look at the work of the Belgian priest Georges Lemaître? He was a theoretical physicist, mathematician, astronomer, and professor of physics at the Catholic University of Louvain who discovered and later it was proven God and the Bible got the order of creation wrong. I'm sure you've heard of the Big Bang, that was Lemaître. The computer you are using and GPS all stem from Lemaître's work and proving Einstein wrong. And with the Hubble Telescope we can see the beginning of time or less than a second after the Big Bang.
So if God screwed up before the creation of man, how could man's disobedience affect all of nature? God already messed it up.
If God is all powerful and mighty why does he allow tiny innocent babies to be born which are not male or female? Or are both?
So where should good human being who are neither male or female, or both go to the bathroom? These people are no different than you and deserve to be treated with respect and use a restroom just as you do. What do you think they should do?
Douglas, you are judging God by your own or other human standards and you can't do that because God is your Judge and not you God's judge!! Georges Lemaitre, Hans Kung, or any other cleric, physicist, professor, mathematician, astronomer, or anyone else that you can name, with however long a string of letters behind his name as he can get, still isn't smarter than God and doesn't overrule God or prove Him ever wrong, and so your bringing him up is another irrelevancy. The Bible isn't a science manual and isn't required to be or logical for it to be considered such or dismissed because it isn't. The listing of the order of creation in the Bible is irrelevant, for the reason just given that it isn't a science manual and is concerned with moral and spiritual matters and teachings. If you don't look in science manuals for moral and spiritual teachings, why would you look in the Bible for scientific facts? The bottom line is that God created and the order is irrelevant and so doesn't prove God wrong, which He can never be!! Again, it is Adam and Eve's disobedience in the Garden of Eden that corrupted nature, and produced hermaphrodite babies. Why would asking hermaphrodites not to use bathrooms specifically for men or women, instead of bathrooms just for hermaphrodites, be disrespectful to them, unless they can only be "respected" by everyone else's being disrespected? If there aren't bathrooms just for hermaphrodites, then some need to be made, the same as there are unisex bathrooms, which didn't use to exist, either. They can be whatever they are, but, at least, not impose what they are on people who aren't open to that and just want to use a restroom without being offended and scandalized by those with two different sets of genitalia, and practice social experimentation even in our private areas for waste disposal!! That is taking it too far!! Transvestites don't or shouldn't get to use men's or women's restrooms indiscriminately for that purpose, but use unisex bathrooms and hermaphrodites can do the same thing, until other arrangements have been made for them. Why should society have to cater to them and disrupt all of its system or even in this area, instead of their accommodating themselves to the larger society and respecting us, as they want to be respected? If they don't want harassment by and imposition of the rest of society on them, how about their returning the favor by not doing that to us?!!
Wouldn't you expect the word of God and the Bible to be true? If you can't trust God, who can you trust? Why would God lie to us? And send us a priest who proves God is wrong? Pretty dumb to me.
Have you done any reading about Lemaitre? Did you see how God guided him to discover the Big Bang? Lemaitre's discovery eventfully resulted in the computer. If you are using a computer you have God's proof Lemaitre was correct and God was wrong.
You lost me on this one... If it was Adam and Eve's disobedience in the Garden of Eden that corrupted nature, and produced hermaphrodite babies how are we here? Hermaphrodite can't have children.
Can I ask you why you are so fixated on bathrooms? Is it a sin for a women to use a men's bathroom? Or for a man to use a women's bathroom? Why can't women, uni-sex, no-sex, and mean all use the same bathroom? That's still the way it is in the south with outhouses or port a potties/Portable toilets and on planes.
You would be very cruel person to not let any person who has to go not to use a restroom just because of their sex or non-sex. They are fellow humans and deserve the respect and dignity I'm sure you want.
Do unto others and you would have others do to you. Let these people use the restroom.
Hey John,
You sound completely foolish. Why dont we make special arragnements for your kind, you know the people that think that they are holier than other people because you have some innate special non-natural understanding of how God works.
Mr Spindler is correct in pointing out individuals born with both sex organs as contrary evidence to your claim of "gods" perfect categorization.
Again, you just rattle on, without ever thinking or admitting that he has a good point. No, you go off on some nonsensical rant about god being perfect.
What was Jesus for then if god made people perfect?
So, let me get this straight, create people with free will and then manipulate them into choosing what god thinks to be right or else sufer the consequences? Really, John
So, hermaphrodites should just wait to use the restrooms until some are built, what a silly comment and this is why you will rarely be taken seriously.
People dont normally go to the restroom to socialize. And if that is what you do then perhaps you should not go to public restrooms to socialize.
Hey, if adam and eve were the first two people, and had two sons, were did the rest of the people come from then?
Seems simple but answer the question John. Were there more people created by some other God? Was incest okay back then because your god approved it but now is the beacon of sexual morality now?
Give me a break, your arguement is arrogant and rediculios and no one should take your high mind god is perfect rhetoric seriously because you no it is not true yourself so once again your being dishonest.
Your such a cheerleader for god john, how do you know your right. If it is from the bible then you also believe that slavery is right too, irrespective of your own minuscule beliefs that slavery is wrong. Where did that idea comne from I wonder.
So enough, of your tired rhetoric, and apologizing for your depcition of your make believe god that you cant prove exist, who happens to think and feel and reason just like John does.
By the way when did you choose to be straight? If people make their own choice for who they are attracted to then you also must have repressed gay tendencies, right John?
Perhaps, you should offer some useful advice on how you conquered your own gay tendencies...
In conclusion, maybe christians shouldnt use public restrooms...that think and feel like you, until some are build to accomodate your religious standards...just a thought...
Get real,
Minister Wilson
(A.K.A. Troll Hunter)
"Wilson", for someone who keeps saying that he is "through with this conversation" and "done talking with me", you sure as Hell don't know WITF to shut the Hell up and give yourself and me a rest from all your endless evasiveness, caterwauling, carrying on, and stupidity!!! If this is your "being through with a conversation" and "shutting up", I would hate to see you not shutting up and running off at the mouth and admitting to it!!! Like all other lying worldly people, you "think" that just a flood or ocean of words is the same as "proving your point" (if you even had one!!), whereas, you are only actually swamping the matter to bolster your own lies, not to find or promote the truth. Your calling me or anyone else "foolish", considering your own supremely FOOLISH!!! beliefs of a mindless universe running itself and answered prayers not being answered by anyone, is the whole pot factory's calling a single kettle "black"!! Geometric progression (2 to 4 to 8 and so on) is where all people came from. Since you are obviously really the one with gay tendencies, how did you overcome them in yourself or did you?!! Corrupted nature, not God, is responsible for hermaphrodites and all other abnormal people, such as yourself. Your deluge of questions, again, are just for the purpose of obscuring the matter and so I won't waste any more time on your dishonesty here!! Go play games with yourself and don't bother me anymore until you have opened your heart and mind to receiving and accepting the truth!!! Until then, Goodbye and Good riddance!!! God is Victorious and all of you atheists are LOSERS!!!!!