A North Carolina chain of IHOP restaurants is paying out tens of thousands of dollars to an unnamed Christian cook who says he suffered religious discrimination after being forced to work on Sundays. Many Christians observe the Sabbath on Sunday, avoiding work and chores on the Lord’s Day.
The cook says that when he was hired in January of 2021, he was told that his requested religious accommodation - to have Sundays off of work to observe his faith - would be no issue. But a change in management later that year also brought a change of opinion on his days off.
The cook was forced to work at least two Sundays, and after refusing to work any more, the general manager fired him.
Now, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) just announced that the worker was receiving a $40,000 payout from the IHOP chain, alleging that the restaurant violated Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 by denying, then retaliating, against the cook’s request for religious accommodation.
Religious Discrimination?
The EEOC took up the cook’s case and filed a lawsuit on his behalf in 2023, successfully arguing before the U.S. District Court for the Western District of North Carolina that his religious freedom was violated when his workplace scheduled him on Sunday, then retaliated against him for refusing to work additional Sunday shifts in violation of his Christian faith.
The lawsuit noted that managers at the restaurant were allegedly dismissive of the worker’s religious request, with his managers reportedly telling employees that “religion should not take precedence over [the worker’s] job” and the worker “thinks it is more important to go to church than to pay his bills.”
“Religious discrimination is intolerable,” argued EEOC attorney Taittiona Miles. “Employers must respect all sincerely held religious beliefs, which includes providing reasonable accommodations when no undue hardship exists.”
The Christian Postal Worker
The case is reminiscent of that of evangelical postal worker Gerald Groff, who successfully sued the U.S. Postal Service after he was forced to work on Sundays. Groff, a longtime veteran of the USPS, sued the government agency after they compelled him to deliver packages on Sunday - typically a day off for mail carriers - following a new contract with Amazon. Groff wasn’t scheduled on Sunday for several years, but eventually he was scheduled on Sundays and told he would face disciplinary action if he failed to report for work on those days.
Groff sued and his case went all the way to the Supreme Court, who ruled unanimously that Groff’s religious freedoms were violated. They clarified that employers must make religious accommodations when requested, unless the request imposes more than a “minimal” cost on the business.
"I hope this decision allows others to be able to maintain their convictions without living in fear of losing their jobs because of what they believe," Groff stated afterwards.
Faith and Work Collide
Cases like these tend to be winners in the legal system, where courts are generally sympathetic to reasonable requests from workers to have their sincerely-held religious practices accommodated.
These legal wins continue to bolster religious protections when it comes to the workplace, but is there a line to how far that can reasonably extend?
For example, should Christian employees always get Sundays off to observe the Sabbath? What of other faiths - Should Jewish workers always get Saturday off? How far do employers need to go to provide these religious accommodations?
Do religious employees have a legal right to have their holy days off? Or should they simply work the hours given by their employer? When it comes to conflicts in the world of work and faith, who should win?
118 comments
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Thomas Christopher Medina
Unless he is Jewish, he has no Sabbath.
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Lisa M Dus
We are so ready to give in to others cultural religion differences. Why not our own religious freedoms? Other countries don't kids our butt's about terrifying if we're there. Why do we? But not our own?
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Kristine Jenkins
The Sabbath rest was created for man, not man for the Sabbath. The 7th day Sabbath rest was part of the covenant between the God of Abraham and the Jews.The Catholics under Constantine adopted the pagan Sunday as their day of worship along with their descendant off shoots ie: Lutheran, Baptist, etc. Muslims have their Friday, and other religions their respective days. We in these United States are supposed to have the unalienable rights to religious freedom, (regardless of proof of deity) meaning the government cannot and should not dictate our beliefs nor prosecute, nor persecute us for them. However there in fact was a time in our history when travesty of religious freedom did occur when the Blue Laws were in acted. We must continue to remind both government and employers of this guaranteed right mostly through anti-discrimination law suits lest these rights be trampled under. As both employer and employee, i find modern day flex scheduling easier, whether for religion, childcare, eldercare, vacation, etc. The new management in the case the blog began with, was in the wrong period.
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Kevin E Robinson
I believe that Sundays are the sabbath. I also think that all businesses should be closed on Sunday for that reason . Answer to the question , it could very well be discrimetive, but also places ask what days you can work and not work , with that said if he was off from the restaurant on Sundays then yes I think it is being discriminated against,being forced to work and against his beliefs of the sabbath.
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Paul Edward Nunis
Including ambulance companies, utilities, and airlines? Would those businesses also include the multi-billion dollar corporate churches? I can't that work ban in any version of the Bible which says 'Except for sterple houses'.
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Rev. BH
Kevin, The sabbath is Christian. If one celebrates other "religious" holidays like Buddhist, Muslim, Jewish, Wiccan or Satanist, Vudu, etc., and demands to take those days off, (and get paid for them) not much work would get done.
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Rev. BH
So go to church for the hour or so, then go to work. Or sue for lots of money and then don't work at all!
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April B
As a healthcare provider, im expected to work/be available 365 days, 24 hours per day, all holidays regardless. I'm not complaining. Thankfully god/goddess/source knows my works and my heart. 👩🏽⚕️⚕️🩺❤️🩹😷
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Rev. Michelle Love
Even soldiers in Basic Training have the choice of either going to church or cleaning their barracks on Sundays.
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Terri Ann Cruze
As to the ACTUAL question, I think employers should make reasonable accommodation. It makes for a better work-life balance. Employers make accommodation for childcare, school, and other reasons. And if it is not possible, sometimes the employees can come up with creative solutions.
For example, I am a Seventh-Day Adventist and worship on Saturday. I was able to find a coworker that wanted Sundays off, so we just split the weekend and covered for each other for many years.
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Rev. Laurie G. Cleveland RN
I.am a victim.of religious discrimation for wearing pentacle and a story was made up. After that, any time that I got written up, she kept adding onto it and the nurse that was with me said thatbthe boss never came to her so it had yo be a troublemaker. I made a deal withbGod a long time before that if Hecsaw fitbyo make me anbRN that I eould work for Him and the patients knew a good nurse when they saw one and didn't want me to leave, so I stayed. I am sorry that I did because not only did she make it impossible fir me to do my job, she hot me blackballed in that state and many of my clientscwere no longer there and my LPN had Alzheimers and couldn't be a witness. There are a lot of Amish around here and they don't work on Sundays. A devout Christian and this is psrtvof the Bible belt, will not work on Sundays. The only exceptiin might be somebody who works in the mefical profession. Then thry have to work a mi imum of one weekend a month. This mansger wascway out of line as it was a condition of his employment that he get Sundays off. New mansger or not, his condition of employment should have been upheld.
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Reverend Paula Copp
Religion is a man-made construct. I prefer Mother Nature…
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Russel A. Kester
But Mother Nature never gets a day off. Better to go with God and get at least one day off! 😁
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Cassandra Gabel
There are some occupations and some work places that require Sunday work hours. If you can't do the job, don't take the job. I am a very faithful Christian but I worked in the medical field and people need to be taken care of even on the Sabbath (whichever day you consider the Sabbath to be.) Farmers need to feed animals and work the crops, cows and goats need to be milked. Stores need stockers and cashiers and Preachers preach.
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Russel A. Kester
Cassandra, some things do need to be done even on the sabbath. However, one is also permitted to keep their sabbath holy and not work for an employer on that day. It's a personal choice. Why begrudge this cook or anyone else of that opportunity or to faithfully observe a religious obligation?
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Paul Edward Nunis
'Sunday'... a word that appears nowhere in the original Commandments.
But ' t̲aʿăneh b̲ərēʿăk̲ā ʿēd̲ šāqer' does.
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Tommy Edward Merritt
The sabbath day is Saturday not Sunday. Depressing to think courts and religion clearly don't know when the week ends and when it begins. He should of lost on that fact alone.
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Amber Fry
Now see... this would be the flip side of forcing everyone to follow one religion. There are plenty of people who are not religious or who are of another religion who would be fine working on Sundays. Hire a part time weekend cook or split the hours between two people who can balance the hours This doesn't have to be a battle. There really are other sollutions than taking up the courts time. Or are compromise and consideration really dead now??
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Russel A. Kester
Amber, I relish it when I can say that I agree with someone that I usually disagree with. But here, we are in agreement. Your comment was very reasonable and well said.
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Michael Benjamin Roberts
In the United States, Freedom of Religion also means Freedom FROM Religion. Since the beginning of time Religion and faith have been the direct cause of more suffering, death, and destruction on this planet than any other force known to man. That is why we have an Establishment Clause in our US Constitution which was included to make sure that believers and non-believers are ALL entitled to equal rights and privileges under the law. Historically, problems arise when believers also believe that they have the “right” to control the behavior of other entities such as businesses, services, and people to accommodate their own personal beliefs. The personal decision to be observant sometimes comes with self-sacrifice and always comes with consequences (both good and bad). The employee might have made the decision to seek other employment when his employer changed their “Sunday-off” policy. Litigation is not always the best way to solve both freedoms OF and FROM religion. There are rarely positive results for everyone involved when religion, the law, and politics collide. As we consciously protect people’s right to believe, we also need to consciously support Separation of Church and State.
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ServantOfJudgement
Atheists took 100+ million souls last century alone. If we could open the books to the beginning I'd wager godlessness takes the gold medal.
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Pamela Kay Waters
Very well put.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry Roberts, but your myth of the establishment clause is just that a myth. At no time does the term Separation of Church and state show up in the Constitution and in fact the very first mention of this myth was in a letter from Jefferson in 1802, a good fifteen years after the Constitution became law of the land. As such it would have to take a Constitutional amendment to be put in there and according to the US Library of Congress at no time has one ever been brought up nor passed by Congress nor sent out to the states. And before you say the SCOTUS said it was there, sorry but no again as per Article 3 of the Constitution (powers of the judiciary) they do not have the authority to "interpret" anything. Nor can they find rights that are in there according to them as they must show under what section of the constitution they think these rights are supposedly there.
So please stop with this myth.
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Ronaldo
Since we have an implied, but not actually stated, separation of church and state, this case, and every other employment matter in the US should be based on contract obligation, not religious rights. If your religion states that you cannot work on Sunday, don't take a job that requires you to work on Sunday. If your religion states that you have to take time off five times a day to pray, and your potential employer says no, don't take that job. While businesses should not be required to accommodate every single religious requirement on the planet, they should be required to stick to the original agreement when the employee was hired. Simple, effective, and legal.
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Michael Benjamin Roberts
Agreed! Somebody needs to send this response to the Supreme Court Justices whose devout faith often gets in the way of their legally required neutrality in rulings.
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Pamela Kay Waters
That's right. If it's said during the hiring process which it usually is.
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David M Hines
They had an implied contract to accommodate the employee, then went back on it. Pretty clear cut case, religion notwithstanding.
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Pamela Kay Waters
Well this was on the new manager for not looking in the employees file if it was stated.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Seems that it was agreed that he wouldn’t be required to work on Sundays. If that is verifiable then the judgement was justified. But if it was not able to ve verified the cook should just go pound sand.
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Tareq Asfour
Very good no one should force anyone…
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Theresa C. Marquess
So many Christians have had to work on Sundays, but it shouldn't interfere with their religious worship. There are plenty of services at different times of the day that would easily accommodate people who have to work on that day. Was this 'worker' more interested in a wildfall from a lawsuit?
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Russel A. Kester
Theresa, I don't know where you attend church, but most churches most likely offer one service on Sunday mornings particularly in smaller towns. Clearly the worker was not seeking a windfall from a lawsuit as he had already worked for a year with no issues.
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Theresa C. Marquess
Russel, The various denominations of churches that I have been familiar with, no matter where in this country that I have lived, have offered a Sunday morning service as well as a Sunday evening service. Some have even offered a Saturday service as an alternative for those who would not be able to attend the Sunday service.
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Russel A. Kester
Theresa, I think I understand better where you're coming from. I grew up in a small town and my church had three services. However, the main service was at 11:00 o'clock. The others (Sunday evening and Wednesday evening) were more informal times times and not solemn ceremonies. But it was a Protestant church. Catholic churches do often have services at the times you referenced. We don't know if this man was a Protestant or a Catholic. What we do know from the article is that he requested Sundays off, provided his reason, his request was granted, and a new management decided to break that agreement. I believe it did so with prejudice, but James Riggle respectfully disagrees with me. Maybe you do too. Whichever is the case, the court sided with the cook. It seems you side with the employer. Do you think an employer should be able to make agreements or promises at the time of hire and then break them later without providing a good reason for so doing?
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Theresa C. Marquess
Mr. Riggle's new employer should have honored the agreement that the first employer made with him. If he refused, I can understand Mr. Riggle's reasoning for handling things the way that he did. However, if it were me, I would have laid it on the table with the employer stating that if he couldn't respect my reasons for wanting Sundays off, he could find another cook. As an employe, I have been in a position where it was necessary for me to work on Sundays, so my solution was to find a church with a Sunday evening service that fulfilled my personal need.
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Russel A. Kester
Theresa, thanks for your response. My reference to James Riggle was to a fellow ULC minister not the name of the cook. My apologies for having not been clearer. I respect how you would have handled this situation. I also respect how this particular cook handled it. In law there's a concept of punitive damages. Its intended to punish a wrong doer so that they don't do it again. In this case, I'm glad the employer felt punished for its wrong doing. Hopefully, it won't do it again.
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Kathryn Diane Taft
If there is no other day in the week that their church has services and no possible way to be scheduled around service time then yes, if not then absolutely no. This is America, you are free to apply for any job. it's your responsibility to find out if a company has a schedule that suits you. I watch baseball "religiously" and many times Jesus Christ himself helped win the game; a few times he was sitting next to me but I was never given special scheduling to observe the holy event that occurs every October where actual miracles can be not only seen but experienced firsthand! Should I sue my employer for denying me being there to witness Gods work and experience miracles? Man, I should have thought of that; I could be rich and never miss a moment witnessing Reverend Joe Torre and his 9 disciples perform genuine bonafide miracles that changed the lives of so many of their devout parishioners. Why, the devil himself was able to do great evil for over 80 yrs and almost killed a man named Buckner before prayers were finally answered and many men who were living under a curse were set free.....AND I WAS AT WORK FOR MOST OF IT. Thank the good Lord for TIVO, and for giving us his son, couldn't have made it through without the gift of his chewed up peanut shells around for protection......
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Russel A. Kester
Kathryn, your comment was disparaging of people's sincerely held beliefs by its insincerity which you know as you did so purposefully. It was a sad comment on many levels. But way to go adhering to your vow of supporting others rights to their religious beliefs which we all agreed to when we become ULC Monastery ministers. Oh, I guess it would actually be the other way around.
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James Riggle-Johnson
If you are hired to do a job you should do that job. In this particular case the employer had already made an agreement with the employee to have Sunday’s off. The EEOC does not take these types of agreements lightly. The new management had no reason to except that employee to work on Sunday, and to fire him was absolutely wrong. Was it religious discrimination? I don’t think so. They fired him because he refused to work on a specific day and not because he was Christian. They refused to honor his previous agreement and that is what was wrong here. People are too quick to say religious discrimination.
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Russel A. Kester
James, that was a good response. According to the article the employer specifically said to the employee that “ 'religion should not take precedence over [the worker’s] job” and the worker “thinks it is more important to go to church than to pay his bills.' ” So it seems the new manager did make it a religious issue.
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James Riggle-Johnson
The employer “ALLEGEDLY” said. So, I’m not so sure the employer actually said that.
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Russel A. Kester
Those "ALLEGEDLY" made comments must've been rather persuasive as the cook won his case.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Sometimes I think you just want to argue, Russ. He won his case because he had a previous agreement with management which the new management refused to honor.
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Russel A. Kester
James, we agree that that 1) the new management broke the agreement, and 2) he won his case.
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Russel A. Kester
In general, an employer should accommodate an employee's reasonable request for religious purposes. Religious beliefs have been shown to be good for individuals as I learned in my Psych 101 class. Religious persons are, by and large, law abiding citizens and good for a society. Our nation was established for the general welfare of the people and employers must respect that that includes its employees observing their religious obligations.
In this particular case, there was already a verbal agreement in place which the employer broke without proving that continuing the agreement would created an undue burden on the employer (at least as revealed in the article). It also seems, again according to the article, that the employer not only broke the agreement but did so with prejudice.
When it comes to these types of conflicts in the workplace, the employer should grant the request unless it can prove doing so creates an undue burden which must be made clear at the time of employment..
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Lori-Ann Neeb
Reasonable is the key word. It does create undue burdens on the rest of the staff who deserve their fair share of weekend time doing whatever is special to them on weekends.
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Russel A. Kester
Lori-Ann, the employer agreed at the time of hire proving it was not an undue burden to the employer. It is not the employee's job or responsibility to determine if a request is an undue burden to any other employee. By the way, in operations like this, there are some employees who prefer having weekdays off instead of Saturday or Sunday. So your response assumes the employee taking Sundays off was an undue burden to other employees when there is not such evidence.
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ServantOfJudgement
Indeed Russell. Even the current cheerleader for the atheist movement Richard Dawkins says he enjoys living in a Christian society. Regardless of what we read here or on Yahoo, Christian principles do bring peace to a society. Atrocities committed in the christian name can be discarded from the Christian principle all together.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
So people should be allowed to not work on a specific day based on some silly belief that says they are not supposed to work on that day? Why are we giving religion and the "religious) any mind at all. Let them go work for good kkkris chans and their businesses will be closed on their very most special day of ignorance.
Of course, just because this cook wants his day of ignorance off, what does he do with his day of ignorance? Spend the day in his chooch, preying to his Cod as he should, or perhaps at home, quietly studying his bibble, reflecting and meditating?
Even money says "maybe" goes to chooch with wife/fam but even so, rest of the day is his. Beer (because he's a kkkrist chan so...you know, redneck), prolly watchin' some sports, can't fergit food, gots to be lots o food for that good ol' kkkrist chan.
Maybe IHOP should hire a PI to follow this holy man around and see what all he actually does on his holy day of ignorance? Of course the krazy kkkristofascists would cry persecution (not sure why that's a problem though because, that's what their chooch is all about
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Russel A. Kester
JJ, as I said, employers should make good faith efforts to provide for people's reasonable requests for certain days off. The only thing displayed in your comment was a hatred of religious persons.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
Mester Kester, get over yourself. I only dislike those religious people who think they are right, everyone else is wrong and want to make everyone believe as they do. Of course that's justified grounds for hatred.
As for what you said (not a clue but anyway) good faith for what? Blind, stupid faith? Imagine people actually believe that "their" god requires them to have a day off to do nothing but worship their insecure, manifestly immature goD.
And why is you don't address what I said in MY comment? Unless this brain-addled short order cook is spending his entire day as mentioned in above paragraph worshiping, mewing and otherwise prostrating himself to a effigy of a man nailed to a stick then not only is he not doing what is required of him by his godling but proof he lied to his employer to get out of work.
Funny how selective you are in how you answer other's comments; only if you think you can obfuscate what other people are saying and trying to turn the discussion to where you want it to go. In this case, the short-order could should have either quit with the strength of faith that god would take care of him or...shut his pie hole and worked his shift live just about every other 'murica is expected to do.
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Russel A. Kester
JJ, I'm happy to respond to the thoughts expressed in your comments, but only one at a time. In this case, in your first paragraph, you asked about my thoughts of employees taking specific days off which I then answered. So there was no failure to address your comment.
I also wrote that the rest of your comment seemed to be vitriolic hatred of religious persons to which you responded,."... that's justified grounds for hatred." So that also seems to have been a correct assessment of your position.
What other items do you think needs a response?
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ServantOfJudgement
Surely you see the value of not forcing people to work 7 days a week JJ. Religious beliefs set aside, man need rest. Without some counterforce, governments, corporations and sole proprietorships will and do force horrific hours upon us. Even under the so-called protection of labor unions I watch men and women drain their souls on the factory floor all across the country.
Who cares why the guy wants a day off, we all deserve one. If religion is the only tool this man has to protect himself then so be it. I would have just left but I don't know his situation.
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Paul Edward Nunis
Was he actually forced to work 7 days every week, with no days off?
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
SHOJ don't be absurd with your replies. Who said it wasn't fair to him to work seven days? Not me, that's you're straw man you're dragging in.
The discussion is NOT about how many days the holy cook was made to work but rather that he was made to work on his 'sabbath'. My argument to that is to find out how that holy cook actually spends his sabbath because if ain't on his knees the entire day, praying treacle entreaties to his clown god than he lied about why he need/couldn't work on sundays.
For me, I would have needed his clown god to show up in person and state why he made those demands on that holy short order cook. Kinda like Santa Claus showing up in the courtroom to prove he's neither dead nor fake.
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ServantOfJudgement
I dig my new acronym JJ. Super Hero Of Judgement is mega awesome!
You just argue to argue, you're not actually debating or thinking about things. I can tell you've not held a real job yet and really have no experience to pull from. You know very little if anything of the workings of the corporate world. Most woke drones don't work, not that I've seen anyway. They're like a lamprey that attaches to its host and drains its life fluids. A lamprey will fill itself and fall from the host but not the woke drone. All of my working students are conservative and most of the non working students are basement woke kids hooked on methamphetamines to "help" their ADHD.
Take it from a working class hero, none of us care about why someone wants or needs a day off, we all know we just do and deserve it.
Perhaps one day God will thoroughly educate you on the topic of labor.
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Russel A. Kester
JJ, why should anyone other than the cook and the employer care why he wanted that day off?
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
There are two ways, for the human mind to try to understand reality; one’s based on ignorance of science, and a belief in the supernatural; the other’s based on science, and a rejection of anything supernatural. When one’s reality, is based on supernaturalism, one can envision any reason whatsoever to work, or not to work on this, or that, day; however when one’s reality is based on science, and the use of the scientific method, one can take a job, or reject one, based on how much one needs the job. Religion, is nothing more, than the various efforts, to personify nature —for those who’re scientifically illiterate.
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ServantOfJudgement
The theory of gravity. Atomic theory. Penicillin. Capacitors. Controlled flight. Inductors. Calculous. Periodic Table . Vaccinations. Pasteurization. Theory of relativity. Radio Waves. Discovery of X Rays. Hydrodynamics. Laws of planetary motion. Reflecting telescope.
This is a handful of scientific discoveries and inventions produced by those who believe in the God of Abraham.
William, dare I say you may be scientifically illiterate. There is hope my friend. Start in Genesis and let the universe unfold before your eyes.
With God, all things are possible. The proof is in the pudding.
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Pamela Kay Waters
There are many different religions William. Christians, Pagens, Wiccans, Mormons, Buddhism, and one that I will not mention but it begins with an M too, then you have the American Native beliefs which are very real, Scientific and all the others. So there is a kind of wide diverse of beliefs.
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
I find the entire concept of religious “discrimination” to be total BS. I have yet to see any exceptions for an abortion made for persons of the Jewish faith. Aren’t their religious beliefs sincere enough?
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Russel A. Kester
Elizabeth, you wrote that you find the entire concept of religious discrimination to be BS. Does that mean it never exists anywhere at anytime?
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Daniel Gray
And Liz I find your claim of abortion to be part of the jewish faith as much BS as well. I have repeatedly checked with Rabbi's in Pittsburg/Indianapolis/Detroit/Cleveland/Louisville and Nashville and not one has said anything of the sort. In fact all of them have said that anyone who believes this made up lie is a fool. So where does that leave you?
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oy_gevalt
"I have yet to see any exceptions for an abortion made for persons of the Jewish faith."
What the hell are you on about? This doesn't make sense.
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ServantOfJudgement
God gave us a day free of labor for several reasons. All are important but this one is extremely visible. Mankind enjoys enslaving one another. We have our brothers and sisters work in factories 12 hours a day seven days a week while telling ourselves we care about the employees. They call us a human resource. Something we can use to the maximum to grow wealth. Governments call us human capital, something owned and to be managed like a forest or pasture.
When a nephew of mine was hired by a solar cell manufacturer, his laptop property number was one digit higher than his employee number.
I had an employer that claimed to be family oriented. They shifted my pay from hourly to salary and expected more weekly hours.
I fired them.
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Lionheart
That’s an interesting statement you have here. I’m really curious as to how a mythical deity, with no demonstrable evidence of its existence, can give us any directives as to how we should live our lives.
🦁❤️
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Daniel Gray
still have not proved God is mythical Lion, thats your opinion and nothing more.
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Lionheart
You have still not proved he/she is real, and neither has he/she 😜.
🦁❤️
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Daniel Gray
And you have yet to prove that God isnt real but you still insist on calling God a myth, so where is your proof.
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Lionheart
My proof is the same as for those that insist the reality of Fairies, Goblins, Elves, and Gnomes, et al are real.
If any of these supposed myths are real, please will you stand up and be counted to prove your reality.
……..crickets…….
🦁❤️
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Daniel Gray
Yea the crickets is what people think of your post. Trying to use fairy tales that we have proved are not real is not the same as trying to claim there is no deity and then providing no proof to same.
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Lionheart
Not exactly, but currently one more than your post.
As a Pastafarian I’m sure Lord Ramen is just as real as your God. I can’t prove Lord Ramen is real either, so we do have similar ridiculous fallacies. I hope that helps you with your thought structure, bless your heart.
I always look forward to your logical fallacies, Sir Daniel.
🦁❤️
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Daniel Gray
And you have the right to believe so and nobody should attack your beliefs/ Thats all I am asking you to do for the people who believe in God. Nobody said you have to believe in him, but then again you should not be deriding or degrading their belief.
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Lionheart
I have the right here in the USA of freedom of speech.
Critical thought can be enlightening for those willing to question their belief structure. Thank you for replying though. 🤗
🦁❤️
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Daniel Gray
And you may think that Lion, but some may think this is hate speech and take a very dim view on people constantly deriding others religions, so please just be careful.
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Lionheart
I’m sorry you see my asking people to use critical thought, and question their belief structure, as being hate speech. I’m sure the founding fathers would approve of my logical statement.
Thank you for your reply.
🦁❤️
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Daniel Gray
and how can you claim this is critical thought when all you do is degrade and attack peoples religious beliefs and refuse to provide one iota of proof of your claim that there is no deity. Thats is just espousing your OPINION
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Lionheart
Logical thought, critical thought, is what is used in a court room when someone is trying to prove their innocence. Factual evidence is used to prove guilt or innocence.
If someone said they have faith that someone is innocent in a court room, they’d be laughed out of court and removed from the jury. Demonstrable evidence is critical to prove someone innocent or guilty, not faith. Would it be seen as degrading to the defendent if a jury insists on seeing evidence to make a logical decision, and not faith?
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Daniel Gray
And LAW (1st Amendment) clearly states you cannot make a law that violates a persons religious beliefs. So your so called logical thinking is about as useful as passing gas in a high wind.
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Reverend Paula Copp
You can’t prove a negative, Daniel. The only thing we know about “god” is that there is no proof that S/He exists or does not exist. We do know that we are made up of energy. According to the law of physics, energy (matter) is neither created nor destroyed, it merely changes form.
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Daniel Gray
And the same question to you paula, you say you cant prove a negative, but neither you nor lion has given any proof that God does not exist
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Reverend Paula Copp
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Thom
As an agnostic I see your point from the lack of existence. But we as human beings must treat each other equally to gain respect from each other. I worked for a family business. And ran into the same situations. I have been a number. I was just this summer given a letter by a public school district as a new employee on probation to sign a letter of acceptance or resign. What kind of things are we saying about the worth of an individual to a person when you say "sign or I can replace you" when they didn't have someone for the position you so graciously volunteered to cover when they didn't even find an agency person to come and fill the position after the employee gave a 2-week notice. The Autistic adult, 19 years of age, would not have had the valuable support he needed in the classroom for his successful day each day during the final three months of the year. WE ALL believers or not HAVE to start believing in the idealism or the theology of HUMANISM! Treating each other like we would all like to be treated. Stop judging one another. Let everyone live as one chooses to live. Stop putting money and profits before people. I wish we could let everyone practice what each theology wants to practice and leave each to their own. Respect each other and not try to make everyone Christian. We must learn to accept each other. These religious wars have gone on for far too long. We must teach that some of us are different and differences are what make us the world. Two Spirits were accepted within the original Indigenous peoples of the United States. Freedom of expression and love are things, which need to be celebrated and not made out to be sinful things. They are the cycles of life. For far too long in Western Society we have made the true cycle of life a secret to our youth making it something they find enticing. When if you make it something of knowledge then it's known. It's not a curiosity. It's no longer a sin it's strictly knowledge. This is what I have learned from living with other religions in California.
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Russel A. Kester
Thom, you wrote that Christians should stop proselytizing others and then proceeded to proselytize on behalf of both secular humanism and wokeism which included a plug of approval for transgender ideology. It was slick, I'll give you that. But it still means your comment did exactly what it told others not to do. That's called hypocrisy.
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Russel A. Kester
Lionheart, that would be a dilemma if God were a mythical deity. Fortunately, that's not the case.
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Lionheart
Do you have any demonstrable evidence of its reality? Why should anyone believe in something where there is no evidence for it? Should we believe Fairies are real? Should we believe in Thor, or Vishnu, or Lord Krishna?
Should we believe the road is clear before we cross it, or should we verify it’s clear by looking both ways before crossing the road?
Thank you for your comment. 🤗
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Russel A. Kester
Lionheart, an interesting question. What type of proof do you think is required? What would satisfy your demands? And why should a Divine Being stoop to the demands of such simple and ignorant creatures such as us?
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Lionheart
Well, to answer your question, I would like the same demonstrable evidence that I use to cross the road…”safely”. I could of course just use blind faith, but something just tells me I wouldn’t last long. Know what I mean?
How do you cross the road? Do you look both ways, and if you do, you have to ask yourself, why do you do that? If you look both ways because of using logic and reason to ensure you get to the other side safely, why wouldn't you use logic and reason to find out if there really is a God, and not just use faith?
Who is it that has told you we are ignorant creatures? Who is it that’s told you there is a divine being? Do you believe everything you are told without looking for supporting demonstrable evidence?
These are just some simple thoughts for you to consider. There’s nothing wrong with using critical thought.
Thank you for your questions.
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Daniel Gray
Again Lion, and where exactly is your proof that God isnt real?
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Lionheart
You! 🤣
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Rev. BH
Gents, the Burden of Proof Fallacy: "A person presents a claim (e.g. god exists) and suggests it should be considered true unless someone can prove it false." or, I claim Neptune is hollow and full of lasagna - prove me wrong or else I'm correct. This is how it works.
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Lionheart
Thank you, Rev. BH. Somehow, I don’t think Daniel Gray will ever understand that fallacy. Logic seems to evade him, but I’m not giving up hope on him. 🤗
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Russel A. Kester
BH, in general I agree that the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. But is that true in all circumstances? If I find a watch (to use an old example) am I required to believe it just happened by natural causes or am I permitted to assume the existence of a watchmaker who created it?
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Rev. BH
Of course you are permitted to make a logical assumption - a watchmaker made a watch, not "natural causes", not magic, not space aliens, nor god.
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Russel A. Kester
Lionheart, I asked what type of proof you required to accept that God is not a mythical deity. You responded that you require the same proof which you use to cross a street safety. To cross the street safely, one would need to see no traffic; therefore, to accept that God is not a mythical deity you require to not see God. Do you see God? No? Great, dilemma solved.
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Lionheart
But….by actually looking to see if there is any traffic to cross the street safely you are applying logic, and reason. You “looked”. You checked. You performed a “logical test” before using reason knowing it was safe, or unsafe, to cross.
There is a huge difference in actually “looking” to see if there is traffic before crossing, than just blindly having “faith” that the road will be clear.
Thanks for your statement. 🤗
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Russel A. Kester
Lionheart, you wrote that one should use reason and logic to understand the reality of the situation before proceeding (I've summarized). Did I get that right?
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Lionheart
Don’t we all do that with general every day issues without realizing it? We actually use logic and reason every day when we’re driving to get home safely, buying a home to make sensible financial decisions, repairing a vehicle to keep it running well, testing a science experiment using demonstrable evidence, etc., it’s all part of very sensible decision making.
Sometimes, even when we are thinking we are using logic, and reason using sensible data, we actually get things wrong, thats when accidents happen (ie testable evidence) and that’s okay. That’s where demonstrable evidence comes in. We prove our logic and reasoning demonstrably to help us make better decisions next time, using better data. If we’re lucky, and still alive, we get to test our logic and reasoning again. 🤭
With regards to whether any of mankind’s constructs of a living deity is real, there is still no demonstrable evidence any of them are. There is actually a Noble prize waiting for the first person on earth to prove any of the world’s gods that mankind has created are real. The best demonstrable evidence would be for any of those deities to actually show up to prove their reality. Just having a “belief” they are all real is not logical, or testable, and is very poor reasoning.
Thank you for your question.
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ServantOfJudgement
Lionheart,
While it might appear that proof of God is just as elusive as poof self spawning life, his laws issued have measurable results when obeyed or disobeyed.
Fidelity and infidelity, monogamy and promiscuity, drunkenness and sobriety, truth and bearing false witness are some self rewarding or reprimanding laws where God not need act directly when one obeys or disobeys his law though he may. Many of his laws require zero believe in him for us to reap the rewards or feel the punishment of.
In this way the very practical and measurable wisdom of the Bible can and does guide believers and unbelievers equally.
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Lionheart
Thank you for your reply. I actually don’t see any more measurable wisdom in the Bible that mankind has not issued forth in many other tomes. There are some wonderful sayings in the Vedas, the Bhagavad Gita, the Book of Mormon, Shakespeare, the Iliad, even in Harry Potter books. One could go on and on.
I love your comment about “Poof! Self spawning life”. It’s a bit like ‘Poof! Self spawning God” 🙃
As for “his” laws. Could it be “her” laws, or “their” laws? Don’t you just love critical thought. 🤭
Thank you my friend. 🤗
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ServantOfJudgement
Indeed Lionheart, a self spawning god was my biggest argument against creation back when I was an atheist. If a god can simply always exist is it that big of a stretch for life to create itself in an organized and flawless way?
I concluded both are impossible yet here we are.
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Lionheart
Yes, here we are.
I guess we might never know the answers to these wonderful mysteries, and because we don’t have these answers, mankind insists on creating its own constructs to convince themselves their constructs are true because they “need” and answer, and if someone “creates” an answer that suits what they want to believe, then that will be the one they want to live with and will preach it’s true.
Thank you for your reply.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
sOJ, maybe that employervyou mentioned had other issues that actually were some sort of wrong doing and should have been called out on that. I wasn't there so can't say. But organized religion is manmade. Spirituality is God's gigt to us if we accept it. But even if you don't He still loves you and welcomes you back when your life here is done. So someone crying foul over working a sunday is just right fighting and in the case of the man who went to court. Looking for a free ride he will never deserve. Let him quit if he is that selfish he doesn't care if jis family has a roof over their heads or food on the table. But the consequences sre on him too.
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ServantOfJudgement
For the most part I agree Lori. I've got the attitude that if I don't like my employer I fire the company and find a place that appreciates good honest work. I can't see myself every filing a lawsuit against an employer with the exception of physical injury or something along those lines.
Don't whine, just leave, right?
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Nicholas J Page
You cannot force people to work on Their Religeous days
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
How about “you cannot force people to interview for and get hired for a job that requires them to work on the day they feel entitled to take off?”
Same with pharmacies that fill prescriptions for GASP! Plan B’. Don’t want to fulfill the job requirements? Don’t apply for the job! It’s simple.
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Russel A. Kester
Except, Elizabeth, in this case he negotiated getting Sunday off as part of his employment contract. And even verbal contracts are enforceable.
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Daniel Gray
Dont want to follow through with a persons constitutional rights and then get upset when you are destroyed by the courts? GASP then dont become or allow yourself to get put into a position like a manager. Its simple.
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Pamela Kay Waters
This should be in their file then. When going for an interview I thought it was asked if you have any sports or religion that would cause you to need any days off if they said yes religion, no working on sundays if the interviewer thinks that it's ok and puts it down in their file then when a new manager comes in and sees that this was grandfathered in then by all means he shouldn't have to work on Sundays.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
Maybe not. They can choose to quit if they feel that entitled. But the consequences of no job is on them too. They don't get a free ride for it. So they need to get their priorities straight.
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Russel A. Kester
Lori-Ann, it's also true that the employer must honor the agreement it made with its employee when hired. And where do you get this idea that requesting the day off for ones religious duties is in any way an entitlement? This employee wasn't getting a 'free ride' as he was working five days a week at a tough job. You sound like the incarnation of Dicken's Scrooge.
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Pamela Kay Waters
If when they applied for the job and the days that the person would have to work then he should've walked away. Everyday now someone is tying to use religion ad a tool. Now matter what it is it's religion, gays, transgender etc. People just need to shut up keep to themselves. But I say if when he was hired and knew the possibility of the days he would be working then he should walk away if he thinks he doesn't have to work.
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Daniel Gray
Guess you didnt read the story, he ASKED and was told by the person who hired him that he would not have to work on sundays and they kept that promise until a new manager took over. You CANNOT just change the terms of a contract just because you dont like them. Just goes to show your bias and shows what people should think of your reply. I mean even the courts have said your reply was and is foolish
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Danielle Elizabeth Ostach
First you can't change terms of contract. Second since different religions have different holy days, it helps to encourage diversity in work place to have Jewish folks to cook on Sunday while Christians and Muslims cook on Saturday and the Muslims get friday off (or a small area in back for the 5x day couple minutes of pray.
Respecting religion gets you very loyal workers, changing contract gets you a hard time find employees.
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Jimmy Moon
They agreed on that. So, that is a great decision to pay him. With the exception of Jewish people, all other religions are made up fake news serving Satan.
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Lionheart
Greetings fellow Goblin. That’s interesting. Are you suggesting the Jewish religion isn’t also a fake religion?
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Reverend Paula Copp
I guess you’re Jewish, Jimmy?
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Lori-Ann Neeb
All religions are manmade,including and especially yours. That faith uses its dogma to stand on stages right fighting for themselves and condemning everyone else. If it was a wiccan or 7th day adventists crying foul would you get on your stage and defend them too? Its great if one can get the exact days off they want from an employer but reality in the real world is we do not get everything we want and that job pays bills and puts food on the table. If a hundred people jumped on the bandwagon now for some free money now that this guy got some, are you going to keep their lights on and feed them when they come crying they are broke? Jimmy Moon
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Perhaps if we concentrated on discussing topics instead of denigrating each other, these posts wouldn’t seem quite so acrimonious. If we look at the subject at hand, if someone gives you an accommodation (Sundays off is an accommodation, not an entitlement) , that accommodation is (should be) in effect until a new contract is drawn up.