The execution of a Muslim inmate on Death Row has revived a debate about religious freedom protections including how far and to whom they should extend.
Domineque Ray was scheduled for lethal injection in an Alabama prison after spending 20 years on death row for the rape and murder of a 15-year-old girl in 1995. When time came for his execution, Ray requested that his imam and spiritual adviser be allowed to administer his last rites.
Our God or No God
The prison promptly denied his request, citing security concerns. They insisted his last rites would be performed by the resident Christian chaplain or not at all. Ray appealed the decision and received a temporary stay of execution while the courts considered his case. It eventually ended up on the Supreme Court docket, where the justices ruled 5-4 that the prison was not constitutionally obligated to provide an inmate with a religious official of his own faith.
However, the dissenting justices were clearly unhappy with the result. Justice Elena Kagan composed a scathing dissent, calling the decision "profoundly wrong" and declaring it a blatant violation of religious freedom enshrined in the Constitution. "The clearest command of the Establishment Clause" Kagan wrote, is that "one religious denomination cannot be officially preferred over another. But the State's policy does just that."
Islamophobia to Blame?
During the court proceedings, Ray's lawyers argued that prison officials were motivated by a dislike of Islam. They posed the question: if not for Islamophobia, why else would an imam be prohibited from administering last rites to a condemned man? Surely whatever "security concerns" his presence raised could be mitigated by the prison's experienced security professionals.
Ray's imam, Yusef Maisonet, has since demanded the prison change its policy so that a designated Christian, Muslim or Jewish religious leader be present if called upon. "We're trying to turn a new leaf in how the Department of Corrections executes its inmates," he said. "We're just trying to reach a compromise with them."
Religious Freedom For All?
Society continues to grapple with how our worst lawbreakers should be treated. Supporters of capital punishment contend, for example, that if a crime is horrendous enough the perpetrator no longer has the right to continue living. Opponents of the death penalty insist that two wrongs don't make a right and that spending the rest of one's life behind bars is punishment enough.
It's a crucial debate, but we appear no closer to finding a conclusion than we were 30 years ago. Considering our failure to make headway on this important issue, perhaps it's no surprise that other aspects of criminal rights remain unsettled.
What do you think? Should prisoners no matter how grave their crimes have the right to choose which religious or spiritual figure is present in their final moments? Or was the Supreme Court right to restrict constitutional protections in this case?
145 comments
-
rebadams7
It saddens me greatly that this was the response of our Supreme Court. A person should have a religious person of the faith of their choice to administer their last rites
-
Rev. Brien
Perhaps you should find out why he was on death row, then ask the victims families if he deserves those rights
-
Freddy Guerra
AMEN
-
Carl Elfstrom
Since he's undoubtedly going to Hell, if there is one, for those two crimes last rites couldn't do him any good, regardless of who administered them. When I was fourteen a thirteen year old female friend of mine was raped and murdered. Too bad they didn't allow me to administer his lethal injection. I would have filled the syringe with battery acid, and administered it to him while laughing gleefully!!! Those were by far my nicest thoughts on the matter. I'm sure y'all don't want to know what else I think. It could cause y'all to have nightmares.
-
Greg
And you're a Minister? You would take joy and, as you've stated, GLEE, in not only taking someone's life, but in making sure that they suffered horrendously beforehand.
Not only is that horrifying, but you are a SHAME to the title of Minister, and you need to either revoke your ordination or get yourself right with whatever God you may believe in, because I can tell you right now if you believe in an afterlife, you won't have a good one coming to you.
-
Audrey Shepherd
I can't believe your comments, God's word says pray for those who despitefully hurt you. God made us all, we choose the religion we want. If anyone was going to hell I would say it is you with the attitude you have. We all make mistakes and bad choices, not a one of us is perfect. I suggest you repent and ask for forgiveness. Because with that attitude you sure won't go to heaven.
-
John Owens
Thank you, Carl.
-
-
Del
Amen. I think too many times the victims and their families are left our of the equation.
-
Elsie L Gambrel
Do we ever ask the victims families if the person who commits crimes against them if the criminal deserves the rights given or not given to them?
-
Lionheart
Totally agree! The victims families need closure, so perhaps THEY should be given the choice in making these decisions for the person about to be executed. If they show no mercy, that would be no different from what he showed for their daughter.
-
-
Krystal Rains
While I don't have a connection with this family, I have known the family members of another horrendous murder and I was very surprised to find that they vehemently oppose the death penalty. It actually made me take a look at it again myself and while I have been pro-death penalty for most of my life, learning that did give me pause about it.
As for the victim's family having a say over whether the criminal has 'rights', it is patently inappropriate. Humane treatment of prisoners, prisoners of war and others is a matter of humanity, despite their crimes and should not be left up to those with a possible grudge.
I am personally appalled at the court's decision as having a spiritual leader at a time like this is humane...it is my opinion that if they are unwilling to provide a spiritual leader for all faiths, then there should not be one for any...and I am sure the Christians would be appalled at that idea. If it is appalling for one, it should be appalling for all.
-
Darla Stoneking
AMEN
-
-
-
Rev Todd
Just like the military, proson chaplains are versed in multiple faiths rites.
-
angel
Why? The victim didn't have that choice before he brutally raped and murdered her. All she got was a lack of faith and being forced to look into a demon's eyes while taking her last breath! He got a chaplain, he should be happy he got that!
-
Brother Greg
Thanks Angel! Could not have said it better.
-
-
-
Randy Ford
This story is fake news. The prison has only one chaplain who is an employee. He happens to be protestant, but like chaplains in the military and elsewhere, he ministers to the spiritual needs of people of all faiths.
State law requires that nobody but employees can be in the death chamber. When a Roman Catholic is put to death, no Roman Catholic priest would be in the chamber to minister Last Rites. (Does any other religion have Last Rights?)
The convict spent hours with his spiritual advisor of choice on his last day. The Imam ensured that the convict understood his religious obligations, and made sure that his body was handled correctly after death. Read the Imam's statements after the execution.
There was absolutly no violation of anybody's rights. This story is false.
-
Jim
Well said. I wonder if this guy allowed the 15 year old any last rights prior to him killing her?
-
flugo
Did the crim consider the rights of his victim? No, he was focused on his 'rights' over the victim. Yet, he expects rights. What a warped sense of values!
-
Jack Gerber
Thank you for this clarification, Randy, it puts a very different light on this whole thing.
-
Elsie L Gambrel
Thanks for the clarification, but why is it fake news? It did go before the Supreme Court so what is fake about it?
-
Roger E Kent
Thanks Randy for your clarifying remarks. Elsie, It is fake news because the mainstream news media leave out all the details that Randy brought out. Their goal is to deflect our thoughts away from the real crime and put the guilt trip on us that WE are really the bad guys. If we are the bad guys then we won't remember or speak out about the nearly 3000 U.S. citizens that were killed by terrorists funded and trained by these people nor the 150 U.S. citizens that were kidnapped and held hostage for over a year, etc.
-
-
-
Rev. Brien
Thank you so much. My only question now is..why is the ULC spreading false news? Do the admins check the crap they spew out?
-
chiefhall
Randy - could you supply a link to the Imam's statement? Thanks!
-
Jennifer White
I read a few other stories about this and another reason the court denied his request was that he waited too long to make such a request. Apparently there's a time limit to make such a request and he was too late. His lawyer surely knew about the time limit, too, and either didn't tell him about it or rolled the dice on that being an issue to use for another stay of execution. Then there were the security issues on top of it. This article is written in a deliberately inflammatory manner, leaving out vital facts and information, and it is a disservice to everyone involved. Should we be upset if religious rights are being violated? Heck, yes! But there are rules in the legal system that we have to abide by, and he (and/or his lawyer) did not abide by that rule of law.
-
Graeme Campbell
?
-
Rev Ken
Thanks Randy. There is a lot of anger and hatred in this blog too often. False narratives and virtue signaling are not helpful.
-
-
Kirk
Did his victim get that choice?
-
J.W.
Everyone talks about rights, but the justices where right if you don't like certain laws then you try and get the people who make all these laws to change them. You don't need to have someone else to give you your last rights. God will do that you may want to ask his forgiveness. Do you think he let his victim have he last rights before taking her life.
-
William Waugh
Everybody makes mistakes. Bad story. A retraction would seem to be in order.
-
pcfield
True, if true...no one can know for sure can we?
-
-
pcfield
I have been under the opinion that felons of any crime especially murder, relinquish their constitutional rights as a citizen of the U.S. including not being able to vote. I have not checked, but has that changed too? It seems that illegals have more constitutional rights than a citizen lately and they are definitely not a citizen to be able to get benefits or vote...but they do. Christians, being hated, get bad mouthed too, some deserving, but they in turn cannot say anything against any other religion without being called judgmental and hateful. When will all this hate stop and true justice be the law of the land again?
All shall pay for their choices in life, he chose to end that girls life and must pay with his own according to the law of the land. God and he will have their own conversation and judgement of which, we have no say at all. If this was a fake story why was it posted and for what purpose? To make Christianity the "bad guy" again?
-
WomanofGod
If you take a life outside of self defense, yes, you should pay with your own. My question would be,why drag it out and have inmates on death row for years, instead of killing them strait away? Then we'd also have to examine the millions of lives that were senselessly taken throughout different times in history, and still continue to be taken today. Will anybody that is guilty offer up their lives for the young children that are sex trafficked and murdered right now today? For the homeless that are being snatched off the streets and killed? Or the little granny who sits at home knitting and her own grandson rapes, robs and kills her? Let's just kill everybody that has ever killed, even those who have had abortions. The law of the land? To whom does that apply?
-
Jedi Hatter
WomenofGod why drag it out? Have you never heard of the wrongly accused? Never heard of miscarriages of justice? It happens more often then you think. So maybe its wise to be cautious at application of the one punishment we cant reverse? Oh and for a someone with your username you sure seem blood thirsty. Wait, you wouldn't be the one doing the dirty work now would you. But then again by your logic the executioner has to pay with their life too... Maybe check your emotions at the door when making such statements so they are made with a level head. Further maybe try to summon a little compassion for those that are so broken they spread their misery to others like a poison?
-
-
-
Catherine Ohrin-Greipp MSW
Justice Kagan, joined by Justices Breyer, Ginsburg, and Sotomayor dissented. Quoting prior Supreme Court decisions, Kagan wrote, “‘The clearest command of the Establishment Clause is that one religious denomination cannot be officially preferred over another. In addition: "No physical evidence linked him to the crimes and a sole prosecution witness, Marcus Owden, implicated Ray. In 2017, Ray’s appeal lawyers discovered for the first time that Owden—who avoided the death penalty by testifying against Ray—had schizophrenia and was suffering from delusions and auditory hallucinations when he accused Ray of the rape and murder and testified against him." Read the article, then make a decision: https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/node/7318
-
TK
Thank you Catherine for posting a link/source and NOT just pulling information from your... like some of the other posters.
-
Pepper
Thank you very much for the link. I'm flabbergasted that your post ha has received so little response.
-
-
Clayton Beardmore
Why didn't they cut off his head and film it like Muslims do in the Middle East?
-
Carl Elfstrom
I bet Dr. Lechter had a great recipe for head cheese. Do any of y'all have a copy of his cookbook? It's not too late. We could dig him up. However, let's first have a seance, so he can watch.
-
-
Tom
They should have given him a lethal injection of bacon grease.
-
Greg
And you call yourself a Minister? Do us all a favor and revoke your ordination. You do not deserve to wear the title of Minister.
-
-
Lionheart
I understand they also hate to die at the hands of a female as they believe it denies them the right into heaven. Perhaps a female should have delivered the injection? Thoughts anyone?
-
Tom
I concur. A Jewish female executioner using a pound of bacon grease injection.
-
John Owens
His moon-god religion would consign him to eternity apart from the moon-god.
-
-
Carl Elfstrom
I'm sure god Anubis, upon weighing his heart, will never allow him to enter the underworld, but will cast him out.
-
LB
Seriously guys. "My sky god is better than your sky god"? Kind of missing the point a bit.
-
-
WomanofGod
My thoughts is that he was a jailhouse Muslim. Many convicts turn to Islam while in prison because they feel that it offers them some sort of protection from other inmates that would kill them on the inside for the crimes they committed. Had he been born Muslim his name would reflect that. So honestly, he likely would not be recognized by the god of Islam anyway.
-
-
Qrez
that is fucked up... giving someone their invisible skydaddy comfort blanket of choice seams a pretty basic thing to allow... this is just pure bigotry! fucking stupid too. but just about what i would expect from judeo-christian pigfuckers... muslims in muslims majority countries would likely do that same because they are just as toxic
Also the death penalty is fucking pointless.... i can only see utility in using it to set examples with group tha though themselves untouchable... like say wall st bankers like the assholes that laundered money for drug cartels and terrorist (arguably high treason)
legally speaking making an example of someone like that is not ok though... but it may a effective tactic... and really the only application for for capital punishment.
-
WomanofGod
What do you think about going back to more savage methods of capital punishment, like stoning, chopping off hands if you steal, beheading? ....I honestly believe that there might be less crime committed if the consequences were more severe. That's just me.
-
-
Pastor Tony
His 15 year old victim did not have a choice. You live by the sword you die by the sword.
-
WomanofGod
Well then he should have been raped first and then killed, yes?
-
Kitty
He was in prison 10 years. He was raped.
-
Lionheart
Oh dear! How sad! Who would do such a terrible thing to a human being? Oh, but wait.......
-
-
-
-
Gary
Randy's information is very helpful. It is amazing how one's opinion can change as more information and details are introduced. As difficult as it sometimes is, a rush to judgment is often regretted after more thought.
-
andy beard
The Catholic sacrament of "Anointing the sick" formerly known as " The last rites" or "Extreme unction" is a ritual of healing appropriate not only for physical ailments but also mental and spiritual sickness maybe the Muslim saw the light at the end, if so I'm sure the chaplain could of obliged..
-
TK
To posters with human decency, the man had two serious strikes against him in the eyes of this racist nation: he was Black and he was Muslim. You’re wasting your breath and time with actual facts about the case with them. They made up their minds once they heard/saw Muslim, then once they found out he was Black, well, you see the results in life and in these conments. This nation and the hateful hearts in it will pay for it in the final end.
-
guidvce4
pffffffft! Obviously, you are not a realist. If you think this nation is "hateful" try living somewhere else. Like a country which does not allow a person to actually practice the faith of their choice. Pick a moozie country to get a feel for the hate which you seem to think exists in this country. You are sadly delusional, probably due to sucking in all the fake news put out by the left. Try researching your statements before posting to sound less ignorant. Just trying to help you learn. If possible.
-
WomanofGod
I'd have to agree with you both. But forgive my ignorance, what is Moozie?
-
-
-
ridges54
Truly impressed by the number of good Christians on this forum. Surely you are following Jesus' example to the letter. Here's a link giving an abundance of background on this case. It seems to be fairly unbiased: https://www.al.com/news/montgomery/2019/02/courts-weigh-mans-religious-rights-in-holding-up-alabama-execution.html
-
TK
Catherine posted very good information as well as a link to back up her sources. The rest is conjecture, where’s the link Randy? I love how everyone is praising his post while ignoring facts/evidence in Catherine’s. You all are so typical to run with what fits your narrow world view so you can justify the illegal murder of yet another Black man. I’m so looking forward to this worlds ending so I can be away from spiritual demons like some of you racists. The world is tired of your skin color fixation.
-
Rev James
I don't believe inmates deserve the presence of any clergymen at their execution, they should have all their rights removed when they commit these despicable crimes. How holy are these people in the first place that they go and murder and rape and brutalise other human beings. No rights, only the comfort of a civilised death or at least quick and relatively painless one which they don't deserve. Note to liberalists I said inmate and I meant inmate, any colour, any religion just an inmate to me who has committed a crime worthy of the death penalty should be put to death, no frills, no song and dance just carry out the sentence.
-
Andrew
John.8 [1] Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. [2] And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. [3] And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, [4] They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. [5] Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? [6] This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. [7] So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Everyone deserves basic rights even when they do not follow the law. There is a reason the Declaration of Independence explicitly states, “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
-
flugo
:Yeah . . . and this animal afforded 'inalienable' rights to his victim, didn't he? What a crock of spewage you're dribbling!
-
-
-
Rachel
We need public executions period.
-
Steve Sandberg
I am accepting of religions other than mine, so my answer has nothing to do with Islam vs. Christianity; if they are being executed, a convict should not have the right to request anything. It should not be a moment of dignity.
-
Andrew
It's saddening to hear people say that this person did not deserve to die with some manner of dignity. I understand what he did was wrong, which is why he was on death row for 20 years, and ultimately executed. Everyone, no matter who it is, deserves a moment of dignity before dying. Asking for someone of your religion to deliver your last rites is not an unreasonable request, and I would argue it is cruel and unusual punishment to deny someone that due to being a different religion.
I can already tell some of you will argue that he "deserves to be lethally injected with bacon grease," others will argue "his moon god was inferior to my god," and the rest will likely ignore this. I want to ask you; is this how our Lord Jesus Christ would want you to treat others? Isn't the whole idea to treat others how you would want to be treated?
-
N. Jouce
Thank you Andrew. I don't believe capital punishment is acceptable at all. I am not a Muslim, Christian, Jewish, or a member of any other monotheistic religion. I do know, however, that respecting our differences is paramount to peace to begin. Yes, he apparently did something deplorable, but in my opinion it is not right to NOT allow repentance to whatever God (or Goddess) one has faith in, regardless of the offense. if you are Christian, ask yourself WHAT WOULD JESUS DO? Brilliant man. Peaceful man. Forgiving, accepting and loving of others who society casts out. This whole "My God or no God" attitude is not conducive to peace. Allow for differences. Respect them. Learn from them. We are all brothers and sisters, no matter what color, religion, language, level of income, health, or ability. Our country was founded on the need to break free from intolerance of those differences. Give Peace a Chance.
-
Lynn
Well said. Thank you.
-
-
Alex Netherton
I am sorry, but I have to think of the victim, a 15 year old girl, likely screaming for her mama, and for god to save her while this monster savagely raped and strangled her. And he needs the clergy of his choice when he dies? Sorry, but he should get no more than he afforded the victim. There is such a thing as Karma; let it start in the present life.
-
Andrew
Remember Matthew 5:38-39 38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.
Don't respond to evil with injustice. It just leads to more hatred and evil.
-
-
William C Millhouse
This is very sad. I, personally, feel that everyone has the right to spiritual council before death. This would be for comfort or possibly religious obligation. The specific religion should not be subject for discussion.
-
Meredith Smith
The hate in these comments...I’m shocked and saddened that these come from a group of “ministers.”
-
CW
And yet you come here and read them. Funny thing is you are not shocked and saddened by the fact that a child died and was raped by this man and that is why he was in jail to be terminated from being able to harm another.
-
Greg
And you, CW, are only here to stir the pot, add more hatred, and fuel whatever fire you can manage. Your ego is showing, and you are as readable as a first grade book. Some "Minister."
What a shame you are.
-
-
-
Carlos
So much hate on this forum...
-
Jean Nelson
I believe he absolutely should have been allowed to receive last rites from his Imam. It is unconscionable to further punish a prisoner, no matter how heinous the crime(s), by withholding spiritual support. In my view, that is as important as providing food and other basic survival needs. Certainly more important than the "last meal" ritual that most prisons afford.
-
WomanofGod
Very sensible and unbiased reply. Thank you for exhibiting the true light of God.
-
Lionheart
So what exactly is your interpretation of the true light of God knowing how capricious his behavior is/was, especially in the Old Testament?
-
WomanofGod
Please forgive me if you were not speaking directly to me. When I spoke to this person and tell them thank you for showing the true light of God, I understand or innerstand that God is Light and Light is simply knowledge. The person who posted exhibited Light by stating that no person should be denied the type of spiritual support they desire, no matter how heinous the crime. This is a simple but wise statement because if it were not believed by the masses, there would be no churches standing today. I find the most wicked to be inside the church hiding behind Jesus as if he were some sort of shield. Many say he is a shield, but sadly he cannot shield one from The Creator's judgment.
Now, to your question. Since you (I assume) are asking me, I can speak only for me. To me, "God" who has gone by many names, and has been stuffed into so many boxes, is both light and dark. It is an energy vastly misunderstood. To walk in light is to walk in the knowing of who we understand "God" to be. God is not the same for everybody. For me, I could never serve a "God" that was strictly about peace all day every day. That is unrealistic, it would mean then that "God" is out of alignment with the Universe. There is peace as well as chaos throughout the Universe and "god" as we know it is a manifestation, or should I say representation of Universal Energy.
Until humanity as a mass consciousness can evolve into their "god-mind", there will always be this duality.
So the True Light of God my Beloved Star Soul, is simply in knowing the human relationship to "God" and our purpose for being in the earth at this time.
-
-
-
CW
You do know that once you are a prisoner you have have waived your right of being treated as a human by doing evil to another right? What about the rights of the little girl he raped and killed?
-
Kitty
You do know that by being a US Citizen you already wave your rights as “human being” and are allowed civil rights granted by the 14th amendment instead. You yourself may not posses the rights you think you have.
Woman of god- the most enLIGHTened reply I’ve yet the honor to read here. Gratitude and ❤️
-
-
-
WomanofGod
It all seems a bit confusing. I ask myself who purchased an online ministers credential because they were sincerely all about doing the work of the God of his or her understanding. ULC is a non-denom institution which would seem to support the spiritual beliefs of all men and women. We support pagans, we support the LGBTQ community, and perhaps unbeknownst to many of us, we may be supporting reformed child molesters, pedophiles or yes, even murderers. The hate in the comments doesn't surprise me because the churches today are full of hate, intolerance and judgment. I read somewhere in the comments that we should read and study the Holy Quran and see what they teach. I can recall several passages in the Holy Bible that have called for violence, even smashing children against rocks! While I am not a Muslim (and I have studied extensively with them in years past), I do not agree with intolerance and calling yourself a so called child of God while showing hate. The same God that destroyed the earth with a flood, the same God that turned Lots wife into a pillar of salt...for simply looking back. The same God that destroyed Sodom, is still God, yes?
...where is our love? May I remind people of color (African Americans and African descendants), that Christianity was BEATEN into you. Your ancestors were whipped into accepting it. The story was, accept Jesus or be thrown off the side of a slave ship. Forget your native tongue, forget your powerful deities because oh...they are demons. That sounds a lot like the Islam that many of you understand. I would advise sitting and talking to a REAL Muslim, an Imam who can teach you what Islam is all about. Every religion has had its radicals, however they do not represent the entire religion. Anybody heard of Knights Templar? My point is, how can we call ourselves people who love God, and serve God, yet we have little room for other people's understanding of what God is, yet we judge and throw around false historical facts like we are without blemish. I'd like to see more people doing God's work and not just running their mouths flaunting around an online minister credentials, like you TRULY have an innerstanding of what God is. And I am an Obeah woman who thought I could find open hearted and minded souls to connect with here. Wow, was I mistaken.
-
Minister
Amen!!!
-
Minister James
Amen...God is Love so where is it in this situation...also i see all these comments of he is going to hell anyway !wow how can men and women of God teach forgiveness and wont gove it...
-
CW
reformed child molesters? A person that rapes and kills a child can not be reformed nor can their soul be saved. The only reason he went to islam is that is does not see this act of malic as a sin but one of faith. killing a non believer is something they are told is gods will. And yes I have read the writing of their "prophet". This convict was just trying to get his way one last time before checking out.
-
-
Zee
You rape and murder a 15 year old- you don't deserve any rights and deserve to burn in the deepest hell in the world
-
Theda Bara
I'm convinced that even some people that consider themselves educated are so damn stupid. This country was founded on the premise that all religion has a right to exist. Even the ones we don't agree with. Even the ones we judge and don't like. This man just wanted someone from his own religion to comfort him in his time of death. Whether it's last rites or just holding his hand. And the fact that there are so many simple and small-minded people in this country amazes and insults me. Especially this country which was founded particularly on religious freedom I am amazed. Remember the Puritans that came to this country who were persecuted in England and that is the reason why they left. And let's not forget the Huguenots from France who also came because of religious persecution. These groups were hated and misunderstood in their own countries however they came here hoping to build a life that allowed them to practice and preach as they saw fit. Any "American" who feels that this man in his last moments of life was not entitled to the comfort of someone who understood his faith is simply not American. Consider yourself a person who lives here but does not respect one of the major tenets that is the foundation of this country's existence. You are not an American. And yes I would tell you that directly to your face.
-
Shawn D Grothe
With the Supreme Court making the decision to not allow an imam to be present undermines our constitution right is freedom of religion which prohibits any form of government from interfering in the religious Affairs of its people I'm making the ruling they interfered in the inmates right of choosing whatever religion he so chooses to practice therefore not only is the prison in the wrong so is the United States Supreme Court.
-
Minister
How can one call themselves a christian and then offen an others man's belief. That alone could send them to hell. If that is the man's last request, then it should be granted. If other inmates had their last request granted, he too should have had his as well. God gave man free will to choose Him of our own decision. Not to have someone cram Him down their throat.
-
Jedi Hatter
So many people here are acting as savagely as the murderer just put to to death. We should be concerned about the death penalty in general never mind the removal of constitutional religious protections. While the state might have a multi-denominational minister available that does not guarantee that the man has the training to administer all religious rites or that he/she is even trained in the nuances of a particular sect of a religion.
Further as ministers we should be advocates for compassion and wisdom. But what have we seen here? 1) A foolish claim of people giving up constitutional protections when they are felons when a simple lick of commonsense or baring that research would show you that only a few rights are given up totally and religion is barely even restricted while in prison never mind just due to felony conviction. 2) Vicious and vile claims of eye for eye attitude which is exactly why I am not a Christian and so many turn away from the religion. I am sure some will shout well what if it was your family. Nice appeal to emotions you have my pity but that does not an argument make. If it was my family I would be rage filled and that is exactly why I should never be given the power to decide the fate of such a person who wronged me and mine. Justice should be measured with logic and compassion not vengeance and rage.
We must especially as ministers seek to grant compassion and spiritual balm to the worst of society as they are the ones that need us most. We do not have to like them, forgive them ourselves, or even enjoy the task. But we must set aside emotion if we are to light the path back to redemption and healing. Hate is the poison that caused many of the crimes we are upset at in the first place. So does it make sense to add to it when as ministers a supposed part of our task is healers of the spirit? Even more ignorant is to drink it ourselves and spew it forth here.
There is no emotion there is peace There is no ignorance there is knowledge There is no passion there is serenity There is no chaos there is harmony There is no death there is the Force
May the Force be with you all.
-
Bradums
It's very interesting to me that so many Christians commenting here are so quick to throw out this man's religious rights based on his crimes and/or religion.
While this man was found guilty of a horrific crime, he still had the right to his religious freedom. To deny that outright or demand that he uses Christianity or nothing is a slippery, and terrible, slope. We still grant other murderers, rapists, and monsters their last rites if they're Christian, so why is a Muslim man being told it's Christianity or nothing? For "security concerns"? I'd say that's a laughable excuse if it wasn't such an obvious case of Islamophobia. Kagan was correct: this is a gross abuse of a man's religious freedom and an obvious example of institutionalized religion at a federal facility.
-
Rev James
Too many people missing point for me. The constitution has no bearing here, religion of any kind is not the issue. The issue is the inmate was refused comfort you either believe he and all inmates deserve comfort of their choice or they get nothing. Religion itself will always comfort and teach us to do just that, there is no argument there the argument is should people who commit crimes so unholy they are sentenced to death be afforded any human rights. I know liberals have already written everyone deserves it but how many who have had their child raped and murdered are in here turning the other cheek. Easy to be liberal when it doesn’t actually effect you and yours.
-
Jedi Hatter
The Constitution has no bearing? Sorry no it always has a bearing. It is the foundation of the American governmental and legal systems and is the most the preferable protection to our liberties when considering the alternative.
Its easy to sell liberty down the river when you are upset and and your feeling are engaged. Its easy to have a protection for those I like mindset and ignore the wisdom of the founders in protecting even the worst of us. Its also easy to be "religious" when it feels good. Much harder when it feels bad.
Appeals to emotion are sad and no argument at all. Further very few religions allow for the final judgement to come from man. Even few have non-redemption clauses. But hey maybe I just read things wrong?
Its not a matter of conservative or liberal. Its a matter of protecting liberty the only time it matters ( when its ugly and hard to stomach ) and extending compassion to the compassionless when they are least deserving.
-
-
CW
Islamophobia does not exist, irrational fear of islam is a made up word. No one in their right mind is irrational about their fear of a religion that preaches the eradication of all other faiths.
-
CW
One thing you people did not even take into account is he either had his faith while he was raping and killing the little girl or he got his faith after. Either way you think you should cottle him and make him feel better when he is going to hell? What is wrong with you people do you think have let the little girl get her last rights as he killed her. What was done to her, and yet you think he should have any rights after being convicted. he has his right to worship as he saw fit. He does not have the right to have his holy man hold his hand as the lights go out just to make him think that his god would forgive his sin on a child. He had no right taking away. He got what everyone else gets in the same place. And the fact he lived for 20 years after he took that little girls life at 15. What the fuck? They should have stung him up by his balls and then let a pack of wild dogs rip what was left apart. h he got religion or had it when he did the act. How do you think that his soul would be saved either way. He cause evil to everyone that loved her and then wanted someone to hold his hand while he was being punish. God damn you liberal and bleeding hearts. You will be the death of this great country.
-
Jedi Hatter
You strawman and act from emotion and a heart full of hate. That makes you as clouded as the man in this article. You tilt at windmills when you claim we are all liberals. I am not. I am a rightward leaning libertarian. The difference is that I believe in a justice system based on clear thinking, black and white definitions and that prohibits excessive cruelty or taking away particular rights. The same as our founding fathers. Our founding fathers did not allow cruel and unusual punishment and would not prohibit a man from receiving their last rights from a chosen minister. But you would because it makes you feel good.
Well I am sorry but I feel that we ought to be better then that. That when we carry out justice that we do not take pleasure in pain inflicted in its name and that any terrible deed should be done swiftly and cleanly with as minimal suffering as need be. One does not need to torture the rabid dog or man eater animal before ending its life. You just do what needs to be done and you pity the sick animal in its misfortune. And if you dont think that an individual must be mentally or spiritually sick to do what this man did then you are blinded by your anger.
You are so enraged that your grammar and spelling is atrocious throughout this very post. So how about you take a breath and realize no one wanted justice to be halted. They only want the rights of all citizens to their religious practice ( which BTW includes last rights which requires a holy man of the proper faith to preform ) to be preserved. Because if we fail to preserve the rights of individuals that we loath then the rights do not exist. A right is not a right when it can be taken away from someone cause you are upset at them. Finally religion calls for compassion even to the most stomach turning people of our world. It is not my place to cast final judgement. That is for the Force to decide or in his case Allah. My only job is to extend more mercy then him because we cannot get to a better world or civilization by acting just as vile as the people we hold criminal.
-
flugo
'jaded hater': Yeah . . . .. let's extend to this ratbag 'more mercy' . . . . just like he extended to his poor victim. Lovely reasoning! We need more people like you in this world!
-
Jedi Hatter
Lets act as viciously and and be as full of hate as this man was to his victim, lovely reasoning. See how easily that is turned around. The only hater that is jaded is you. I have no need to make a person suffer. The man is convicted and going to die I do not need to torture or be spiteful. Further I acknowledge that he could be wrongly convicted. Its happened before and if its happened here Id rather at least give the man a chance to get right with his god before he goes. Even if he was guilty someone capable of doing something so evil is clearly a broken or sick individual. And as such is like a rabid dog, you do not need to hate the creature to put them down as is needed. Not even animals act that viciously to their prey.. So I have no need of petty vengeance nor a desire to demean myself with spite. Simply let the man have the religious rights of his choosing and then get on with the punishment. When you turn justice into vengeance by letting spite, anger, and emotion come into it you open up the door for all manner of cruelties that says much about your own spiritual or mental state.
-
-
-
-
Greg
"Inject him with bacon grease." "A woman should have killed him, he wouldn't be able to get to heaven." "Inject him with battery acid."
Not only are you people disgusting, but you are a shame to the title of Minister. Half of you are Christians who couldn't be more excited at the opportunity to legally kill a Muslim. And yet, your own holy book has this to say:
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also."
-Matthew 5:38-39
You are so happy and so excited to see someone put to death that you can't even remember the entire center of your faith. This is probably the single-most Christian verse in the entire book, and yet y'all can't wait to ignore it, to spit at it, to step on it, and otherwise do everything in your power to make sure that you show as many nasty colors as you possibly can. Which of YOU is without sin? Which of YOU has turned the other cheek? Which of YOU has ANY right to act like you are any better than this man? Did Jesus say "some sins are okay, and some are not in the eyes of the Lord?" Is that was we are told? NO!!! We are told that "ALL sins are sins against the Father, and all are equal in the eyes of the father." That literally means that it doesn't matter how vile you think the sin is, the sin is still sin, and the sin is just as equal as any sin you've committed.
So you take the title of Minister, and yet you are entirely unable to even remember the faith that you so rabidly defend and shout about at any given opportunity. You are so whipped up and ready for blood that you can't even recall the central-most tenets of the belief system you so actively and heavily push on everyone around you. You are so deafeningly ignorant, and willfully so, that you are calling for not only the destruction of another human's body, but according to that person's religion, their soul. How are any of you actually that evil? Because that's exactly what you are: evil. You are just as evil as his actions.
Shame, shame, and shame. All of you, every single one of you making such vile and nasty comments, is not only disgustingly undeserving of the title Minister, but you have no business even being part of civilized society.
My how the mighty have fallen.
-
Hugh Barugh
I dont normally remark on comments but l feel you have to Leave religion out of it and just the case of rape and murder. I have a daughter and 2 grand daughters for that to happen to them l would quite happily inject them my self , and before you bang a drum about being ministers or what ever when l person commits such a crime against a child or anybody they loose the right to any thought . It is the lowest of the low to harm a child or a woman , nothing todo about reigion but human kind and its laws that try to govern us in a safe world . So go on shoot me down we have ti have laws to try to keep us all safe break the laws to that extent then the person deserves all he gets and looses his rights . Sorry but thats the way l see it
-
Jim
I think a whole lot of folks are missing the point here. Just like in combat a Chaplin may be a catholic but will administer jewish rights or any other denomination.. They are trained to do this. Based on what I have read there are two things here. 1. He or his lawyer waited to long to request the Muslim cleric. The other is that prisoners are afforded the services of the prison Chaplin who will administer to him in his religion. This is the same for ALL prisoners therefore his rights under the system were NOT violated in any way. I think this is just another way to get people to argue and try and make out that we Americans did something wrong. I have no doubt that he went in a much more peaceful way then did his victim.
-
Jedi Hatter
He has a right to practice his religion as he understands it. That means to be given last rights by a man of his faith. Not by an individual that does not believe in and thus has no heart in the rites being given. Nor would someone not trained in his faith really understand it. I think you just wish to deny the guy one more thing because it makes you feel good and give you a touch of the vengeance you so crave. The reality is that there was no need to deny him and any so called safety concerns are a joke. Either the prison is admitting they cant manage a proper search or they are spiteful.
We do not have to be nasty and spiteful when we administer justice. Nor do we need to ignore the constitutions ( yea there is more then one ) while we deal with the condemned just because it makes us feel good. In fact denying liberty and treating those that are the lowest in our society poorly just shows that we hold no moral high ground nor do we actually hold to the American value of liberty when it matters. So many are ready to cast off liberty the second it becomes hard to stomach and even more toss out spiritual values such as compassion and the extension of redemption the second the person involved is icky. Which shows they lack faith and courage in their convictions.
To cap off I am betting you will shout liberal or act as if I am ignoring the vile nature of this mans crimes. No that is not the case its just an easy side track to run down when reality sucks. Because the reality is we can dish out the punishment the law demands and do so without hate or emotion making us animals about it.
-
Jim
Jedi you are really wrong on so many levels. 1 I don't need to feel good about this guy, nor do I seek vengeance from him, that's between him and his god. There is a good reason to deny him. The prison system has rules that everyone must obey. What if his religion was an obscure religion that required a monk from some island on the other side of the world to administer his last rights? Should we send a plane to get the monk? It's funny you did not mention a US military man on the battlefield dying and lets say he is catholic but the Chaplin is Baptist. You telling me that it's ok for the soldier to get his last rights from a Chaplin not of his faith but that a prisoner should get preferential treatment. I don't think so! I AGREE with you that we do not have to be nasty or spiteful when we administer justice but as I said in the original post there are rules. If others were treated different and this guy was denied just because he was a Muslim then again I would agree. But that is not the case based on what I have read. The Prison Chaplin was trained in his religion and as a Chaplin I would think that as a man of God he would have the heart to give rites to any man regardless of faith. I would not assume that just because someone is of a different faith they cannot give spiritual guidance. Your comment "I think you just wish to deny the guy one more thing because it makes you feel good and give you a touch of the vengeance you so crave" is an asinine statement. First off if you are going to assume to know what someone is feeling don't "think". You might hurt yourself. Second This guy put himself in his situation. No one made him do anything. What I am Jedi is a person who accepts responsibility for my actions and I expect others to do the same. You do the crime you do the time. Our society has excuses for everyone and everything now a days and we don't want to hold anyone accountable for what they do. If we started accepting responsibility for ourselves this country would be a lot better off.
-
Jedi Hatter
There is no good reason to deny him. He can be given his last rights by a man of his faith with no cost to the state outside of the time it would take to administer a search. Which they search hundreds of people a week if not a day in prisons like this. So your little monk plane trip is false equivalency. As is your little example using soldiers. Because often there is no one else there that can give the last rights in such a situation for a soldier and when there is they get the right person.
You do not know the chaplains training in other religions or how extensive it was. So for all you know he looked it up on google fifteen minutes before going to work with this guy because the last time he read about it was back in seminary a few decades ago. The simple fact is that this man is not connected to the prisoners god which is the whole point.
Oh and and speaking of being afraid to think have you attempted to think about the fact that the guy could be wrongly convicted? Has that possibility entered your mind? If so do you think that taking 30 to 45 minutes out of the prison staffs day to do a search on the guys chosen minister is too much to ask? Its not something that costs anything but a bit of time. Considering we are about to kill the guy its not much of a stretch to extend it to him as a last request.
Rules are rules is never an excuse for denying an easily granted request. The condemned are under the heaviest guard and surveillance at the prison. To search and allow in a minister takes no extra resources or effort outside of the normal day to day operations of the prison. So the only reason to deny the man is spite with rules as a cover. I acknowledge the possibility of getting the wrong guy or even if it is the right guy that the man is broken in some fundamental way to do something so heinous. So its a simple act of compassion to give a a fundamental last request. Denial serves no purpose and violates fundamental principles of religious freedom and mercy to the condemned.
-
Jim
I think I touched a nerve on you Jedi. You have totally missed my point. Rules are there for a reason if you don't like them, just like with laws then work to change them. Why should he be treated any different than anyone else. This is the point I think you just don't or cant or wont understand. Others who are on death row get the prison Chaplin REGARDLESS of their religion. This is the rule. This guy is no different than any other inmate. THAT IS MY POINT. As for the plane IT IS relevant because if we allow this guy to break the rules it would be unfair to the next not to allow him what he wants. When do we say enough is enough HENCE the reason for RULES. Looking at life through rose colored glasses is nice but the real world has rules and laws that we must all live by when you do not you must pay the penalty whatever that is. As for the possibility of this guy being innocent tell me how many times has an innocent man been put to death in this country give me the name and when it happened please.
-
Jedi Hatter
Jim what do you think the court challenge was? What do you think we are arguing that they do? Change the freaking rules. That is the whole point of the conversation or are you not grasping that? We are saying the court was wrong and that this needs to be changed. Using the oh other people got treated wrongly as an excuse is a joke. Oh we messed up once so lets keep messing up rather then fixing the rules. The whole idea of this conversation is implied if not directly stating is that the court is wrong we need to change this. As for ze law ist ze law and you shall pay zine penalty no matter ze cost was spouted by other people in history and that has always been a BS statement. We have rights for a reason. We have rules against cruel and unusual punishment or violating those aforementioned rights for a reason. And its because thoughtless compassionless individuals would rather take a swift road to " justice " then think about the consequences of allowing the rights to be violated or the cost of violating them via special pleading bs. Oh and who has been wrongfully killed lets see List of people found innocent later: https://stories.avvo.com/crime/murder/8-people-who-were-executed-and-later-found-innocent.html List of potential innocent people here: https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/executed-possibly-innocent List of those lucky enough to escape execution: https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-list-those-freed-death-row
Now that I did the work for you, you can see that its a fairly substantial list of individuals.
-
Roger E Kent
Am I hearing you right? You want the warden to break the law because you think a person who has been convicted by his peers is being denied his rights. When that occurs to any of us we lose our rights: to vote, to step outside our cell w/o the guards approval, to be home when our children come home from school, to attend the bowling tournament, etc. When my wife and I worked as volunteers in a state prison near our home for 2 1/2 years we found a whole new world that we were unaccustomed to. Were they human beings? Yes! Were they children of our Heavenly Father? Yes! Did they have feelings? Yes. But the difference between them and our neighbors and who we went to church with was these people couldn't live by the laws of (I left out "normal" because I don't know how to define it) society and they were takers not givers, As an example: a couple yrs before our service a lady volunteer was conned by some of the inmates into bringing in mementos (contraband) from their families. Once they had her breaking the law they blackmailed her into Horsing in drugs for them and eventually she ended up in prison with them. Did they care that they had ruined a good person's life? NO
-
Jedi Hatter
Roger that is a nice straw man you built. No one said anything about wanting the law to be broken so stop with the fallacious arguments and try some honesty. Because what people are saying is that the law/policy is wrong and should be changed/amended. Further you use an example of a lady that chose to break the law as some " oh poor her " sob story? What does that have to do with anything? She did not get her life ruined by anyone. She ruined her life by breaking the law and that is her own fault. We do not lose our rights to religious liberty in jail and granting a final request to have your pastor/reverend/rabbi or imam there should be a simple matter. That is what people are arguing for.
-
-
-
-
-
Kitty
According to Wikipedia: “One study estimated that up to 10,000 people may be wrongfully convicted of serious crimes each year. A 2014 study estimated that 4.1% of inmates awaiting execution on death row in the United States are innocent, and that at least 340 innocent people may have been executed since 1973”
Moreover it may be at least slightly appropriate to consider the reasoning that humans LEARN to rape and kill and torture. I can’t imagine the pain and suffering an unwanted, abused, and neglected child must bare for a brain and body to commit unthinkable crimes. WE HAVE FAILED as a society when we have this intense unrest. It’s a serious fucking issue when we have more people in prison than both China or Russia. Especially when so many people think you should have no rights as an inmate.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/uk/06/prisons/html/nn2page1.stm
This issue cuts deep as we see from the heat in the comments. I wonder what secret truth drives that fire?
I’m absolutely flabbergasted reading these responses. Almost stunned.
-
Jim
The reason we have more people in prison Kitty is that we don't execute them the way china and Russia does. The penalty for crimes in both china and Russia are much more severe than here in the US. Many of the prisoners never even see a courtroom. They tend to just disappear. 340 innocent people MAY HAVE BEEN executed since 1973. According to what I have read there is not one case proven that someone was executed who was innocent. The reason people stay on death row for so many years is to give them the chance to prove innocence by appeals. May have been or estimated does not make it a fact. An inmate should be treated humanly but they give up their rights when they commit a crime. That is how any society works. As I said earlier in another post that this mans rights were not violated. There was the prison Chaplin there who could have saw to his needs. These folks are trained in all types of religions just like in the military. This was just made up to get folks fired up and that's all, just like the recent issue with the actor staging an attack. He wanted to get people riled up.
-
flugo
Right on!
-
Kitty
I didn’t say rights were violated. His path is meant for him. I simply asked for the consideration that one may be wrongly charged. And consideration that one that commits inhuman acts - is still in fact, human!
It’s not the violence - it’s the silence. I will speak my surprise and shock at the sight of a community meant to be spiritual leaders professing publicly the blatant hatred and disregard of another human life - not matter the circumstance. This story is likely twisted to some agenda, but I believe agenda is achieved when we as a society divide and judge.
I thought perhaps to offer of a different perspective may help just one heart soften. It Is hard for me to grasp understanding of the mode of thinking that causes large quantity of response from a “community of God” in such negative force. Just my personal concern and opinion.
Peace, compassion, and light to you Jim
-
-
-
LeQuita Kulp
Wow I really can not bring myself to read all the comments on this as so far, with a few exceptions, all I have seen is either ULC ministers bashing other ULC ministers or, can I really believe my eyes, people who one would assume should be all about supportting another human beings religious choices tottally bashing this guys faith. Now don't get me wrong here I am not saying the prison or the court is wrong on denying this guys request as there are some rules required within the prison system. Then lets move on to all the coments about how this guy shouldn"t get to choose his religious leader or even get last rights due to his probably not offering dame to his victim. He has sat in prison 15 years do you think maybe it is possible he may have foynd error in his ways or only after being in prison found guidance to a faith of any sort and possibly after finding a faith in whatever God realized his error. I am no Christian and all but I beleieve that God in whatever form or forms would hold that whatever this mans fate in the afterlife may be that at least in this life he be given the opportunity of repentance. I am so supprised that so many I see commenting here can hold so much hatred in there heart. I hate this mans crime oh how I wish ot never existed. I feel very sorry for this man that he did not find a calling to his faith sooner in life so as to have never committed such a crime. May peace and love light your paths and darknes and hate forever find a diffrent path then the one you travel my fellow ministers.
-
Dick Stone
Don’t Christianity, Judiam, and Islam all claim to believe in the same god, and Allah is even translated as God? So, religiously (ignoring custom differences), any should be OK for any other.
-
John Owens
Um... just a point of order here: If a deity is real, you don't need an imam, or a priest, a shaman, a druid, or a rabbi. The deity should be able to hear its followers' thoughts and prayers, and receive them into whatever stupid reward it has prepared for its faithful. Stop pissing and moaning for the rights of the convicted killers and moan for the rights of the victims. Yeah, yeah, I know a few innocent people get put to death, and that is sad, but miniscule compared to the number of innocent people who are murdered with no chance to pray to their heathen gods.
-
Jedi Hatter
First religious ritual often has to be preformed by one trained in it. Second the individual might not know the entire ritual or proper wording (which is the reason for point one ). Third if we do not look after the rights of the most vile of our society they are meaningless. Rights are easy to stick up for when its people we like or feel bad for. The only time it really counts is when its hard and it would feel better to deny the individual the right. Fourth way to care about those wrongly condemned, you seemed oh so concerned with people who died wrongly.... oh wait does it only count if it happens outside of the legal systems because you are awfully concerned about the victim that was not convicted but blase about those who were wrongly killed by the courts. To close heathen gods? Nice smearing of religions outside your own. No wonder people are dropping the big three religions rapidly.
-
John Owens
Oh Mad Jedi Hatter, the only one blasé about anything here is YOU. First, you want to defend the rights of the murderers. You do not seem to care one whit about the 15 year old girl this man raped and murdered. You also do not care about the victims of crime, but only the perpetrators. I did not single out any particular faith for criticism. This man was a rapist and murderer. His faith cannot be anything except heathen, no matter what it is. Big Three indeed.
-
-
-
Jim
Let me try this again. Jedi have you read the cases of each of the 15 people that you Claim were executed that you say were innocent. Based on the cases I would put to you that only two would really appear to be innocent. While that is I agree to many it is less than 0.12%. Even if all 15 were innocent it would still be only about 1% out of the 1492 executed since 1976. How many of these 15 were involved in the crime? how many witnesses recanted because they are related to the person convicted and recanted after they were executed? How many of the 15 had prior criminal records and were supposedly manhandled by police for a confession. At any rate this would collateral damage in the war on crime. The 164 cases where people were exonerated just goes to show how well the system works. With advancements in DNA and forensics the odds of a false conviction get smaller and smaller. In a perfect world there would be no crimes which require executions. In a perfect world there would be no crime. In a perfect world no one would ever be wrongly convicted of a crime. We do not live in a perfect world. I do not for one think we need to change these rules that we have in place and apparently neither does the supreme court. So I'm afraid we will just have to agree to disagree Jedi
-
Jedi Hatter
So you enjoy shady math do you? Because you conveniently left out the 8 people in the list above the 15 you mentioned that were FOR SURE found to be innocent. ( There were 3 lists, for sure, possible, and exonerated before death ) The oh its not that bad attitude you have toward lives being taken or coming close to being taken due to a failure of the legal system is stomach churning. Again you use false equivalency comparing the fog of war to a what is supposed to be the impartial and level headed justice system. One is a chaotic event with many many people involved. The other is a controlled environment with the benefit of time and distance. You can disagree all you want about a man having his final request be denied. But when there is no real security risk to the situation and its literally a matter of prison signatures and standard searches all it comes across is as being petty for the sake of it.
-
-
Daniel
One additional factor that had been overlooked: Why didn’t the prison have an Emam in staff in order for all muslim prisoners to have equal access to practicing their religion. Instead, they claimed security concerns prevented an outside religious leader from accessing a more secure area (the execution room). With them only having an on-staff “Christian” THAT is unconstitutional. Furthermore, they could also enact proper security policies so as to remove the flimsy claimed security interest-which are actually a thin disguise for unconstitutional prejudice. If this guy had been asking for his rabbi I’m sure things would have been different given the political connections between the right wing so-called Christians and Isreal’s politicians (who also do NOT represent all of the ACTUAL faithful Jewish people in Israel).
-
Roger E Kent
So your saying that our penal system should keep on staff a representative from all the 100's of different religions and their different branches (Sunni, Shiite, Roman ....., Greek.........., American....., North......., South.........., Armenian........., Buddhist......, Universal Life Church, Atheist, Reformed....., Fundamental.........., Reorganized......, etc. I wish you would rethink your position. Also you seem to exposed your anti-Christian, anti-Semitic prejudice. As personal favor would you rethink that also.
-
Daniel
First off. The constitution prohibits favoring one religion over another. So- the prison system WOULD have to at least have some sort of policy that allowed for contracting with ANY religious leader from the community if the need came up. Which does NOT mean these would be paid positions but that a needed religious leader could volunteer AFTER being properly vetted and AFTER complying with security measures applicable for all other religious leader. Second, my comments were in reference to distinguishing the faithful and TRUE followers of Christianity and Judaism from a lot of politicians in the US or Israel who merely use the appearance of being part of those religions for undue political influence. Separating political pretenses from the truly faithful followers is actually the OPPOSITE of being anti-semitic or anti-Christian.
-
-
William Waugh
Dont know but my guess is the prison chaplain is schooled in other religious thought.
-
Secretary3rd
I could give him his last says just as any person, priest, imam since it matters little what his fate shall be. Feeling good about himself does not make those who he took action against will feel good about them self's. His action should be as that of Saudi Arabian where for his crime off with his head. It would have not taken decades for it to occur. He just better hope he dies there gone into the mists.Sometimes the body while dead (no heartbeat) even rots, lingers it seems for a very long painful time kept in a state of where his victims have a chance to do upon him as was done upon them.
-
Daniel
The Cobstitution says no religion should be given preference. That doesn’t mean the prison has to have an “on-staff” chaplain from EVERY possible religious denomination, but it DOES mean they have to have policies to ALLOW for such only as the need may arise. Not that these would be paid positions, but contracting with religious leader volunteers AFTER they have been properly vetted while complying with ALL security measures IS the constitutional standard. And differentiating between politicians who often adopt the APPEARANCE of religion in order to try and boost popularity, as compared to the truly faithful followers of a religion is NOT being “anti-Christian” or “anti-Semitic”- if anything, it’s the opposite.
I didn’t know Imams administered last rights.
And more' the pity: Islam is as little understood as Christianity in early history, (before the great Constantine conclave decided on a version of Christianity which suited the ruling class), or Judaism in it's original form. What then can we expect from lay person judges who have their own ax to grind! Sad, but real!
"before the great Constantine conclave decided on a version of Christianity which suited the ruling class"
I have been saying the same thing for years. To put it into perspective imagine Donald Trump, Justin T, Theresa May and whoever else Gett ng together and coming up with a script that is supposed to be our go to for our faith..... I think not lol.
One thing which is understood re: islam is that anyone not moozie is an infidel. And ripe for anything the practitioners of islam decide to visit upon them. Read their "holy" book to learn more and understand the reality of what is in it. Not good for anyone who is not a moozie. It is a cult, an ideology which calls for world domination of all peoples at any cost. Including executions for not adhering to islam. Study it.
Sounds suspiciously like Christianity for most of its existence.
What's the saying? "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone?"
It's an ugly and sad thing, the way you speak. "Moozie"? Really?
Wait, don't Evangelical Christians believe that they are the only ones saved, and that everyone else is going to hell? Does that make the rest of us infidels?
LOL @ evangelical "christians" If "jesus" knew what bible writers and followers have done to his messages, he'd turn over in his grave
Infidel is a "christian" ( english language word) Your christian arrogance and false superiority is noted. Note: I've been accused of being "christian" Jesus isn't christian. I was born into the Quaker's faith, and to that I have added Pantheism. Before you get your bible in a knot read what is Pantheism. King James wasn't a nice man, and had HIS bible written to justify his own self interests.
Islam is a form of government that does not recognize other beliefs like Christianity. Christianity is not allowed in cities, towns ruled by Islamic Sharia Law, such as Mecca and Medina etc.
To recognize a form of government that is intolerant of others is welcoming destruction to the American way of freedom of religion.
You need to check your sources and confirm what you read with other sources. Regurgitating what the cowards and bigots say does not reflect well on you. One example to contradict you is Egypt, Muslim government with Coptic Christians living there, also Palestine.
Doctor, That was not very nice. You are doing the exact same thing.
Reverend, Is it not just as hateful to justify the denial of a last rite to a religious person because you don't like the religion?
As I read it the Supreme Court just stated that the Constitution does not contain a clause stating that prison wardens have to provide a clergy of the convicted criminals faith. They did not declare the right-nous/wrong-nous of the wardens decision. Therefore I disagree with Justice Kagen's rebuttal. My personal opinion is that the warden made the wrong decision.
I see Yusef Maisonet as a hypocrite because his faith does not allow for religious freedom. If you want to use Palestine as an example you must acknowledge that their leaders form of religious freedom is the genocide of all Israelis. Just read their terms of coming to the negotiating table,
Today's Islam seems a long way from the Islam of the Koran, in it's early versions. Muslims for many centuries were the civilizations, far ahead of Europeans. And they welcomed Jews and Christians as "people of the book", meaning children of Abraham. To say Islam does not recognize Christian belief or Judaism is incorrect, but we have a "have vs non-have" problem in these areas, and extreme poverty with lack of advancement creates hopelessness, grist on the mills of dictators and warlords. History shows that a common enemy is as good as an economic miracle!
Apparently America does not really have freedom of religion. You deny people religious services.
Christianity is allowed in Islamic countries. Where I lived in the middle east, the government gave Christian land on which to build a church.Before you start criticising people or beliefs that are different to your own, it is wise to learn something about them.
I wholeheartedly disagree with your statement that the U.S. doesn't have religious freedom. Of the 22 Islamic countries I am unaware of any of them friendly to other religions.
We all have to walk that walk by ourselves whether we believe in God or not and if we done wrong all we can do is ask for forgiveness God forgives those who truly repent those that don't will reap the fiery death Lord will judge our hearts and give peace to all
Rev . Dr. Brian L. Sumter
Regardless of what this man has done. God will judge Accordingly. We as people are so set in our ways that we shy away from things we can or cant control. He should have had his Imam deliver his last rites. What were they going to do? Take him out of there?
From my research there is a prayer he could recite himself...he didn't require an imman, this is about sparking debate. Debate isn't a bad thing if it's done respecting the rights of others to have differing views. But frankly there is something else to consider here. Did the offender give his victim the right to last rights? No! He was being punished for his crime and had far more consideration than he showed his victim.
Deep inside we know that was no right.
I feel everyone has their own freedom to choose what religion they want even if they have the death penalty. I am a Christian and I do not think they had the right to ignore his request. DOC goes by their own rules and regulations. I do not feel this was fair to him or his family.