Is it okay to posthumously baptize the dead? What if they don’t share your faith?
The Church of Latter Day Saints (commonly referred to as the Mormon Church) apparently sees nothing wrong with it. In fact, they have reportedly been secretly baptizing everyone from Holocaust victims to long-dead celebrities.
Critics say that these "baptisms" – which occur without the individual present – are incredibly offensive to the dead and their families.
It's particulary insenstive, opponents say, when those selected were known to share very different belief systems during their time on earth.
But LDS leadership says its members are only trying to give the deceased a chance to enter the Kingdom of God, in accordance with the church's beliefs.
So, is it ethical to baptize the dead?
How Does Posthumous Baptism Work?
Ex-Mormon Helen Radkey is an LDS watchdog, and keeps an eye on the Church’s genealogy database. She also reports on posthumous baptisms that she believes don’t pass the sniff test.
Per the Church’s own policies, they’re only supposed to posthumously baptize descendants of living Mormons, but Radkey says they’ve lapsed in that policy numerous times.
These baptisms are called "proxy baptisms," where a living Mormon of the same gender as the deceased is baptized in their place.
This proxy baptism then gives the dead the option to enter the Kingdom of Heaven in the afterlife, according to Mormon beliefs.
LDS members view baptizing the dead as a display of love for one’s ancestors, and not at all disrespectful or disregarding of the dead’s own religious beliefs.
How Long Have These Baptisms Been Going On?
Nonetheless, the practice has proved controversial.
The Mormon Church publicly stopped proxy baptisms for Holocaust victims in the mid-1990s following outrage from the Jewish community. Now, only direct ancestors of current members of the LDS Church can be baptized by proxy... or that's how it's supposed to work, anyway.
In 2012, the Church faced backlash when it was discovered that they had posthumously baptized Anne Frank, re-opening the dialogue on the ethics of posthumous baptism and raising questions about how sincere the LDS Church is about ending this controversial tradition.
According to Radkey, the church has been violating its own policies in the years since, and that it has even resumed proxy baptisms for Holocaust victims who have no direct descendants involved in the Church.
She counts at least 20 Holocaust victims without direct Mormon descendants who were baptized in recent years.
Harmless or Offensive?
LDS leaders say they’re doing their best to stop unauthorized baptisms, but with more than 100 temples around the world, some slip through the cracks.
Still, they underline that official policy is not to perform a proxy baptism unless the individual has living relatives in the Church: “Without exception,” they wrote, “church members must not submit for proxy temple ordinances any names from unauthorized groups, such as celebrities and Jewish Holocaust victims.”
For many Jews, the idea of posthumous baptism of Jewish Holocaust victims is wildly offensive. To many, it recalls old threats in Nazi-era Germany that Jews should convert to Christianity – or else.
“It smacks of a certain sense of proselytism,” explains Rabbi Moshe Waldoks. “If you can’t get them while they’re alive, you’ll get them while they’re dead.”
All Celebrities Go to Heaven
Holocaust victims weren’t the only ones getting baptized by the LDS Church. Celebrities like Marilyn Monroe and Humphrey Bogart were also baptized by the Mormon Church. So were world leaders, such as Queen Elizabeth II.
Baptisms were even proposed – but ultimately declined – for mass murderers like Charles Manson and Stephen Paddock, the gunman who killed dozens in Las Vegas in 2017.
“It’s important to say that in some ways it’s meaningless,” Rabbi Laura Baum says. “But it’s also religiously arrogant. I think words matter. Their doing their rituals could be insulting to the families of people whose relatives are being baptized. In the case of people who died during the Holocaust, they were killed because of their religious identity, and now another group is confusing the story.”
Some say posthumous baptism is simply a religious tradition meant to show respect to the dead. And after all… they are dead. How much harm can it do?
But many find the idea of baptizing someone – especially an individual not of that faith – an offensive and arrogant display of moral superiority by a religious organization.
What is your take?
106 comments
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Mary E Benoit
It’s offensive and insensitive.
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Rev Ned
How, exactly, is this a problem?
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Rev_Shaun
Does anyone really care? Sorry, but Mormonism sits alongside Rastafarianism and Scientology at the very top of the Stupid Scale, that list of things that are too ridiculous for people to believe in.
Rather than criticising the victims of Mormonism - Mormons themselves - we should be trying to rescue them and bring them back to reality.
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Ellen B. Wentzel
I know for a fact that the Mormons have every answer for every question. There is no way you can convince them of anything other than what they believe. I was told by one Mormon that Methodists only go to church to be entertained. Thay is extremely arrogant. They are all brainwashed.
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Mary Haviland
So the hell what. What difference does it make to the rest of the world who wants to criticize them. It doesn't hurt anybody, and right or wrong, everybody else needs to mind their own business.
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Sandra Lent
As a previous member of the LDS church, I can tell you that baptisms for the dead do take place. Or did take place when I was active. I was going to be baptized for a deceased sister, but I was told my parents (still living at the time) had to approve, and so it didn't happen.
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David McHaley
I was an Elder in the L.D.S church for years. Was a Stake Missionary and Elders Quorum President. A lot of shady dealings go on in that church. It's why I left. These are not Christians. They are Smithians. They put Joseph Smith above all else.
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Lyle Roy Gleason
Well said!! You should be marching in the streets in front of all Mormon Churches with a bullhorn, proclaiming exactly what you've just written!!! And I will help you do it!!!
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John Ball
I’m neither a Mormon nor an apologist, and I don’t see any problem with the practice. It harms nobody, even it will be offensive to some.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
This is really a dumb article. Why in the hell don't you just leave some religions alone?
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Rev Nolan
As a former Mormon, I agree. As a non-Christian, I find the article ludicrous. As a nonpartisan voter, I see it as their right. As a person with not much to say on the subject, I’m just confused as to the significance of this article.
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Rev. Kev
I can only speak for myself. I wouldn't care one bit if they decided to rebaptize any of my deceased family members. I don't believe in their religion so their rituals mean nothing to me. The words and rituals only have the power we give them. If anyone is offended, it's because they gave that power to others. They choose to be offended.
Seriously, would baptizing Holocaust victims really confuse anyone, as Rabbi Baum in the article insinuates? I'm pretty sure no one would be like, "Oh, wow. The Nazis killed all those Mormons. Poor, oppressed Mormons." Nope.
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Rev Ned
Some people aren’t happy, unless they have something to complain about.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
The LDS Church has been baptizing dead people for decades, this is nothing new. Take a look in LDS Church records and you will find they baptized Adolf Hitler, Elvis Presley, Anne Frank, Pope John Paul II, Princess Diana, Steve Irwin, and Ann Durham the mother of President Obama to name just a few.
I hope someone can tell us why the Mormons baptized Adolf Hitler.
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Ealdormon Piparskeggr Robinson
I read an article in the early 90's that they baptized Odin and Frigga as the ancestors of a new LDS member. The article was written by that new LDS member's brother.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Ealdormon Piparskeggr Robinson I seem to recall reading a similar article.
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Colleen McAllister
My mother's family was Mormon way back to the Founders. My mother was not dedicated to the church and she and my siblings eventually wandered away from it thru disinterest. I was blessed not to be baptized into it so escaped most of the doctrine. We all were baptized as Christians by a Baptist pastor and are still faithful to that group. As you may guess Baptism is important to us. However this meaningless form of baptism is very offensive. Mormons cheapen the ritual by doing it under false assumptions. 1. Baptism does not save you. Only belief in Christ can do that. 2. Baptism is a physical sign and witness of a decision that an individual makes. 3. The person being baptized must be the person that has made that decision of acceptance and not a proxy. Mormons need to back off and stop insulting other people and wasting water on meaningless traditions.
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Rev. Kev
I'm just a little curious. if what they're doing is meaningless, in your own words, then why do you also find it very offensive? To be offended, it must carry some form of meaning. Otherwise, why not just brush it off as the meaningless thing you say?
As I mentioned in my post, above, I do find it meaningless. I don't believe in it so it has zero power in my view. They aren't physically attacking me or anyone. They aren't digging people up. It's all a symbolic ritual held in a temple. So I don't care. Like I said before, if they decided to rebaptize my entire family, I wouldn't give it a second thought. I don't give the ritual or the people or the beliefs that sort of power in my life to harsh my mellow. It's no different in my mind than some person sticking needles in a voodoo doll. I can't stop them from doing what they want in their own space. And it doesn't affect me in the real world. So meh. What would being offended accomplish other than making my day unhappy?
All that aside, baptism for the dead is based on the Bible. 1 Corinthians 15:29. Early Church Fathers (such as Chrysostom and Tertullian) wrote of the practise. Depending on who you read, they saw it as either legit or heretical. But it was an early Christian practise that wasn't officially condemned until the Council of Carthage (397 CE). So the LDS church isn't exactly basing this on a new or made-up idea of their own.
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Lionheart
Your claim that “ Baptism does not save you. Only belief in Christ can do that.” is also just as meaningless as what the Mormons believe. There is no supporting demonstrable evidence that any of your superstitions have credibility than those who believe in fairies, and elves, or vicarious baptism for the dead.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Oh toothfairy who doesn't believe in anything is at it again. Go fly away on your alien spacecraft (Chinese Balloon). Since they haven't invented anything that truly flies. They just stole the technology from someone else. Can Orentals truly invent anything. They just copy from everyone else. God didn't choose the Jews and Christians to be the Chosen and Grafted on Chosen our of spite. The rest of the world was blessed with being servants. 😆 🤣 😂 😹 😆 🤣 😂 😹 😆 🤣 😂 😹 😆 🤣 😂 😹 😆 🤣 😂 In your case you were blessed with stupidity.
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Lionheart
Not only are you extremely rude, Keith, you are also extremely wrong, stating orientals only copy from everyone else. You are now showing your ignorance in your education, which is totally understandable if you are following a religious organization without any evidence of its veracity.
The Chinese for instance are the forerunners of things like acupuncture, banknotes, bellows, belt drives, belt hook, biological pest control, blast furnace, bombs, bristle toothbrush, bulkhead partitions, cannons, cast iron, chain drives, coke as fuel, color printing, crossbow, cupola furnace, dental amalgam, dominoes, drilling rigs, flamethrowers, fireworks, fishing reel, flares, folding screens, forensic entomology, fuses, gas cylinder, gas lighting, hand grenades, horse collar, horse harness, hygrometer, kites, land mines, nickel silver, oil refining, paper cups and napkins, percussion drilling, petroleum as fuel, pig iron, playing cards, pontoon bridges, porcelain, puppet theaters, restaurant menus, revolving bookcases, rockets, rotary fan, ships rudders, seismometer, snow gauge, solid propellant, soybean oil, soy sauce, stir frying, stirrups, tea, teapots, thyroid hormones, tofu, toilet paper, wheat gluten, wheelbarrows, wrapping paper, envelopes, wrought iron, and these are only a few of their inventions, Keith.
As for your claim that I’m blessed with stupidity, I will now claim you are blessed with educational ignorance, and extreme bias, towards people of other lands. You clearly like to believe what you are told, without evidence to support your beliefs, such as….religion, or deities.
Thank you for your very arrogant, and misinformed reply.
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John P Maher
W T F ???
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
As a ULCBishop, with two ULC DD’s, I’m able to debaptize anyone who was baptized prior to reaching the so-called age of reason (which for too many of us, is never reached — as exemplified by many of these posts — but usually at the age of 18).
And, I’m able to do it for any Mormon — dead or alive.
I’m also granting certificates, to anyone with the compulsion to render their blessings, any time one near someone who sneezes; because unauthorized blessings have no value without the giver of the blessings having a certificate to give such blessings.
I’m also able forgive anyone who sins — unless one has signed against the Holy Ghost - for that one needs to simply become a Secular Humanist Pantheist.
PS. If the ULC ministries would like to take over certifying those who want to render their blessing to sneezers, I’d be willing to stop doing so, at their request.
I’ll be the first one to purchase such a certificate (especially the wallet sized one) so I can brag about it every time I bless a sneezer.
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Rev_Shaun
In the UK, the National Secular Society makes available a Certificate of Debaptism which can be downloaded, signed and sent to any church you were baptised into by your parents.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
I think you've been hanging on the back of an animals tail for too long after taking a crap. Do you lift your leg or is it all yellow too.
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Paul Edward Nunis
They've 'stopped' the same way they 'stopped' polygamy, etc. By sweeping it under the rug and denying.
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Matthew Leon Reed
They have never denied it. As for sweeping it under the rug, I think that today no one really cares. Today you have man with man, women with women, multiple men or women with multiple men or women, man/women with animals. And all this is becoming the norm. Who cares if someone wants to have more than one wife?
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Paul Edward Nunis
Who cares if 50 year old men have multiple 14 year old 'wives'? I know that I find it reprehensible... you find your own limits.
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Rodney Knight
The church believes that baptism for the dead is only offering the diseased opportunity to except baptism it in no way they are baptized in to the church it is only an offer. No one has right to tell another what to believe or that their beliefs are wrong for God almighty alone is judge I would be very cautious in straying into territory of the almighty
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Douglas Robert Spindler
This story is to distract you from the REAL Mormon story that's happening right now.
Mormon $500 Million Ponzi scheme results in FBI shooting and death. Mormons just were fined by SEC for $100 Billion tax avoidance scene. That's tax money you and I are going to have to pay. The Mormon Church of Canada says $1 Billion is gone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgxGYUyvJio&t=34s&ab_channel=TheFifthEstate
Any idea how much money the Mormon church gives to the hungry, needy, poor and homeless? It's not much, church won't say. But have you ever heard of the Mormons feeding the hungry? Clothing the needy? Building homes or sheltering the homeless? I haven't.
All of the fraud the Mormon church elders are committing just means everyone has to pay more in taxes.
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Deborah Lynn Strafuss
There's so much discussion and disagreement here on whether this is an actual practice or not, and then I see such unfortunate insults and simply impolite and disrespectful verbiage from supposedly spiritual leaders that I am saddened.
Personally, I feel, just me myself, that religious beliefs, death rites and posthumous ceremonies are chosen by living individuals. I feel it inappropriate and also impossible to appropriate someone else's religious life posthumously, based on another individual or institution's set of beliefs, no matter how well intended. We would be highly improper to do this in life, we are more highly improper to do it when they are not present. We can never say what a non living being wanted unless they wrote it down for us to follow. This is why death wishes and plans are so important.
As a shamanic practitioner, I can assure you it is dangerous and can be harmful to the spirit who has passed on to perform any initiation or ceremony binding them into a set of beliefs or afterlife systems without their specific request or consent. Appropriating any part of a person's passed on spirit for anything is treacherous. In shamanism, we offer them a "good farewell" and release their spirit to make its best journey expressing our love and delight in their having been here with us to share their light. Religion seeks to bind the soul to a specific afterlife path. Shamanism sets it free for its best journey. Appropriating souls after death by anyone for any reason is a dangerous path.
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Melda Lundstrom
I concur
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Alysia Ecker
The Mormon church thinks they are the only ones that are gonna be worthy to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. I was a member growing up. But They were so kind to have me excommunicated for getting pregnant before marriage! Did nothing to the father of the baby! Told my mother that when this was done that my sealing in the temple would be stripped from me and I would no longer be worthy to be w her and my family when I died. That any ties to the Mormon church would be stripped from me including God Jesus and the Holy Spirit! I stood before last Tribunal of about 8 men accusing me of such terrible crimes before God! Snd they told me they were taking my connection to God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit and I would Forever be lost to the empty darkness and I would no longer eking to my Family! I stood up a innocent 18 yr old girl and told them all off and Shamed them and definitely told them THEY would Never be able to take My God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit from me and how dare they even utter those words! I said you can NEVER TAKE ANY OF THEM FROM ME! I walked out w my head held High and Never went back to such a RIDICULOUS RELIGION such as this Mormons/Cult!!
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Thomas P. Davis
Reminds me of my friend that once was Mormon. His father was the owner of a bar. He gave his wife the OK to purchase some books from a bible worker. After he read those books, he was convicted that it wasn't appropriate to own a bar and sold it. So temporarily he was unemployed. His mother took the matter to the church, and they granted her approval to divorce him. Shortly after he was able to find employment.
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Michael Patrick Ferrell
Not just no. Hell no. These are the same people that ordered the murder of 400 Indians on January 28th, a day -29°, in the 1860's while they huddled in their homes. All dead before lunch. The Mormons are like the Chinese, absolutely untrustworthy.
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Merlin
Why not. This type of Symbolism can release suffering from those living.
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Tina W. Anderson
I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I came out of a Baptist church, a church that caused a lot of damage to my family as well as others. I can tell you from personal experience that my relationship with my Heavenly Father is my business and my responsibility. If your religious beliefs differ from mine, so be it. What matters is that we love one another, do what we can to help others, and live the way God (not a church, not a culture, not anyone else) wants us to live. I have some personal beliefs that do not align with the LDS church. But this church is the one I have chosen to be part of because it aligns more closely with my beliefs than any other church or religion that I have come across. In my opinion, the only way to have a perfect church is to establish one myself. And quite frankly, I don't want to, I don't have time, and there would probably be just one member...me.
There isn't one perfect church. There are child abusers in every religion and in no religion at all. Murderers can be found in every denomination. Adulterers can be found in just about every church congregation. Thieves and emzbezzlers abound in almost all organizations, religious or otherwise. But you know something? If we were all perfect, there would be no need for churches. If we were all perfect, there would have been no need for Christ's atonement.
Most of these comments are hurtful and hateful. I'm not responding to that. But it makes me very sad to read some of these things because we're supposed to be ministers of God's love. I don't read a lot of love here for anyone with different beliefs; and that kind of disdain for other faiths reminds me a lot of what I grew up with and why I searched through multiple religious belief systems before choosing the LDS church. If what a person does in his or her religious practices doesn't cause harm to someone, then it doesn't bother me. I won't belittle you for your beliefs, and hope you can extend the same courtesy to me.
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Rev. Kev
I agree with what you wrote. We have the freedom to believe and worship as we choose (as long as it's lawful, peaceful and doesn't bring harm to others, that is). I respect the rights of others to do as they please on their own time and in their own spaces. Not my job to be the Judge.
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Tina W. Anderson
I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I came out of a Baptist church, a church that caused a lot of damage to my family as well as others. I can tell you from personal experience that my relationship with my Heavenly Father is my business and my responsibility.
If your religious beliefs differ from mine, so be it. What matters is that we love one another, do what we can to help others, and live the way God (not a church, not a culture, not anyone else) wants us to live. I have personal beliefs that do not align with the LDS church. But this church is the one I have chosen to be part of because it aligns more closely with my beliefs than any other church or religion that I have come across. In my opinion, the only way to have a perfect church is to establish one myself. And quite frankly, I don't want to, I don't have time, and there would probably be just one member...me.
There isn't one perfect church. There are child abusers in every religion and in no religion at all. Murderers can be found in every denomination. Adulterers can be found in just about every church congregation. Thieves and emzbezzlers abound in almost all organizations, religious or otherwise. But you know something? If we were all perfect, there would be no need for churches. If we were all perfect, there would have been no need for Christ's atonement.
Most of these comments are hurtful and hateful. I'm not responding to that. But it makes me very sad to read some of these things because we're supposed to be ministers of God's love. I don't read a lot of love here for anyone with different beliefs; and that kind of disdain for other faiths reminds me a lot of what I grew up with and why I searched through multiple religious belief systems before choosing the LDS Church. Your mileage may vary.
All I will say here is that I will not belittle your beliefs, regardless of how ridiculous or false I believe them to be. I hope you can extend the same courtesy to me. The apostle Paul admonished each of us to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling".
Best wishes to all.
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Lionheart
Thank you, Tina, for your heart felt comment to these posts. I used to be a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as a High Priest, and member of the High Council in both England, and the USA. I have been to Temples in London, and in Utah, and have performed baptisms for the dead. During my time in the Church there was a letter from the Jewish faith asking the church to cease proxy baptisms for the Jewish faith, especially those involved in the Holocaust. To the best if my knowledge the LDS church observed their request.
As a matter of interest to others on this topic, the church not only performs proxy baptisms for the dead, they also perform Temple Marriages, for those couples that have died, to “Seal them together for time and all eternity”.
Yes, these are all practices that sound foreign to many, and will be scoffed at, but in reality, they are no different to other religious rituals that all churches seem to have. Removing a babies foreskin in the name of religion is just one that some will support, and others will scoff at. Knowing that on average 100 babies die each year due to complications from circumcision, I’d go with baptisms for the dead any day, even though I now see it as meaningless. 🤭
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Thomas P. Davis
Amen well said.
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Thomas W. Feola
Hello???? Who cares???? Are you Mormons???? Or are you just insane..! The idea of having a baptism for someone is no different than having a religious service for said person or saying a prayer and lighting a candle for them. It's just a kind religious manifestation for another person. Does anyone really have a problem with this..? If so, do you kick the hell out of carolers when they sing in front of your house at Christmas? When you call the Mormons again, (and I'm quite sure you will because you're out of your minds) tell them they can baptize me! AND I'M NOT EVEN DEAD!!! They can get a stand in, say a prayer, and even wear their magic underwear! And Tellem I said: " Thanks For The Gumball Popeye".. And god bless.
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Daniel Todd Kamm
An in-law of mine was raised LDS. I am Jewish. I had to call her when I read this. She said baptizing dead people, especially Jews and Shoah survivors was stupid. And that LDS should be charged with abuse to Jewish corpses. I agree. Are they getting any money for this?
And who the hell wants to be in their freak show afterlife heaven anyway?
Rebtk
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Maximillian Martin
I have not been baptized by or into ANY church especially any connected to abrahamic religions and NEVER will be!!! They're included in all of this and they're dead wrong for doing it to anyone at all!!! People close to me know how I feel about it and have my permission to take any and all actions against anyone who would try doing this to me!!
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Daniel Gray
So what? IF they do this and you are already dead, then what do you care? No judge or court in the US is going to take a case like this so there is nothing you can do if it happens. So they will most likely just laugh at you. Especially since the law of almost all religions say very clearly that the baptism can ONLY be applied to a living person and one who asks for it to start with. And according to the Mormon teachings IF they do do a baptism for the dead, they must follow the following: "A living person, a direct descendant who has become a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is baptized in behalf of a deceased person." IN short you have people making a fuss over nothing. Can they do this to anyone or stand in for anyone...ABSOLUTELY NOT. The person who is to be baptized must have first shown an interest in this religion and have expressed a request for this to be done, otherwise it is not allowed. no matter who says it is. Then you have to be a direct descendant of the person, niece/nephew/brother/sister/etc does not count it can ONLY be a son or daughter and can NOT be done without the families wishes. Thats why it is never done and stopped being done back in 1890. So I challenge anyone who claims it is still being done, to show where and when. I wont hold my breath waiting and neither should you Martin.
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Lyle Roy Gleason
Mr. Gray, you are totally missing the point of this 'exercise in rhetoric '. It is about the inherent dishonesty of the Mormon Church, which stretches back to its founding. 'Officially ' baptism-by-proxy does not exist anymore. Yet I am reading blogs here from many former LDS members that say that it continues to this day. I would believe THEM before I would believe anything coming out of 1 Temple Plaza, Salt Lake City!!! And you should too!
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
The Mormon’s are in my #2 position on the Delusional Rankings. Well, #1 in the Abrahamic Grouping. #1 is scientology. #3 is the mountain and their snake dancing. Then any of the speaking in tongues/translation and dancing in the spirit.
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Rev. Carol M Anaski-Figurski
Interesting!
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Amit john
This is really a dumb article. Why in the hell don't you just leave some religions alone?
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Lyle Roy Gleason
Because the LDS is NOT a religion, it is a CULT!!! It was formed to make a few leaders rich, on the backs of its followers!!
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Rev. MichaelRS
People, people! Get a grip.
This is just a big nothing burger for the perpetually offended to feast on.
The line forms behind me when it comes to Mormon heresy versus actual Christianity, but there is absolutely no actual harm here nor does it in ANY way affect anybody else's life...or post life.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
wacky chins at it a again
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Thomas Edwin Peterson
Imho harmless.
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shash
greetings , im rev jack . I have a bit to speak on this interesting subject . first off . please forgive my spellings . Congratulations to you all for speaking , Rev; Kev ; Thank you !!Much of what you say makes sense . .I too am a victim of my own voice , meaning there is times that i may say or do something that makes no sense to others . words do have wings . we should strive to think before we speak . we all are not perfect . sometimes speaking on a subject matter , my heart speaks with anger . after all . i am human . thank you for being human ; anyway , onward to this subject matter ; Simple questions must be in play here . how can the dead request ,say, and accept any type of a baptismal ceremony ? they cant. Is it right for family to request this ? under their beliefs , Yes . Who are we too judge and condemn ? : Is it not time that people accept that this is 2023 and not 1850 ?? to each their own . Now as far as baptizing dead criminals ; like murderers , sex offenders ( children victims ) , And those that cover it up ?? NO !!! let them be judged by the creator .(God ) If he wishes to baptize them with his love and forgiveness . So be it . I shall not cheapen nor be a disgrace to the people i have been blessed to administer too and assist as the many needs that arise ,to try and change others beliefs . . But again : i must stress ; it is their beliefs ; not mine . thank you, may you all fine peace
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Thomas P. Davis
I believe they came up with the idea of baptism for the dead from a misinterpretation of 1Co 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? I also believe it is all a snare of satan that a person is able to have a second chance after death. From my former church where you can have masses said, candles lit etc. to lessen the torture the deceased has in purgatory, for a small financial donation, to a belief that they will have a second chance after the so-called rapture of the church or has the pastor that I work with here likes to preach get on the first train, don't wait for the second. It all seems to not agree with Paul's statement; 2Co 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
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Guy Sutherland McLaren
I am pretty sure the dead don't give a f*&k
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Eric Gillett
Total 100% wrong. An individual must make a conscious decision to be babtised. They cannot do this if they are dead. The whole process is meaningless and offensive.
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Eric Gillett
100% wrong. Babtism must be a conscious decision by the individual. This is not possible if that individual is dead. Very wrong.
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Amber Fry
How does that make any sense? The soul is already gone, the body is an empty shell and it's all supposed to be be choice. I swear sometimes I see some of this stuff and it really makes me want to give up on any religion whatsoever.
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William Fritz
There are many tenets that are believed within the LDS church that one follows if you are a member. Every religious group, every civic group, every business has a way to do things in a way that meets their beliefs.
Proxy baptism as defined is similar to the concept of opening a door and asking someone to enter. They don't have to accept to invitation to come in.
In the churches belief it is making an offering to a past relative the opportunity to be a part of it. The spirit doesn't need to accept the offer.
That's a simplified version of their belief.
One opens themselves up to inspection at the same levels of criticism if pursued too vigorously .
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Paul Dysart
I’m not sure what their theory is that would allow someone living to stand in for someone already deceased, with whom they have no familial connection.
It strikes me as very similar concept to the scapegoat, or other substitutionary beliefs.
I think it’s misguided, and is of no real consequence.
In any tradition of healing, or other metaphysical assistance, the very first step is to get consent or permission from the individual.
Trying to operate on another plane on the behalf of anyone from whom you have no consent is wrong and I believe carries karmic consequences.
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Campuscoll
I feel this about the baptism of those who have already passed. Who should care how the LDS or the Catholics perform baptism? Baptism is not a guarantee of salvation; never was and never will be. If baptism for the dead comforts anyone, let them do it. No skin off my nose and it shouldn't affect anyone else at all. It is a practice that harms no one.
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brian ham
In the South of France is a village called Moustiers Sainte Marie which has a chapel perched in the rocks high above the village ( 360 steps) called Notre-Dame de Beauvoir.
It is one of a number of chapels in the region where resuscitation occurred
In the old days it was believed that if a child was still born, or died before baptism, it would go straight to hell
However if it was taken to the chapel, it came back to life for just the instant of baptism and hence went straight to heaven
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Rev. Jim Sutton
Usually, in order to be baptized, one must be a member of that religion, sect, or church. I have no problem with the baptizing of the dead, as long as the baptizer has the permission of an immediate relative of the deceased. No permission --- No baptizing. It's that simple Baptizing willy-nilly is just plain wrong.
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Carl A. Hankins
It's just plain necromancy. Did you know the 7 last viles are made from the 7 greatest sins in use after the time of their use. That way Noone knows the time or day of his return.? The most that could come of it is...the dead coming to life snearing rot and disease on those they contact.
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Sandra A Rasmussen
Isn’t baptism for a living soul? A dead body is merely a shell for the once living spirit- I wouldn’t think that anyone would go through the process of baptizing, a dead rotting body, Although some religions will sprinkle, holy water on caskets or cremains before burial in the cemetery, but that’s a totally different thing But who knows? Some of these alternate religions are truly nuts lol
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Samanthae Donnelly
Interesting how celebrities get the go ahead but not serial killers. So much for forgiveness. I would be VERY ANGRY if someone did this to me.
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Shirley Overton Quick
My 6th grt grandmother was b. in 1824. More than 25 yrs. after she died the Mormon church baptized her by proxy. She was baptized by a MAN, not a woman, and entered into the archive records. We do not know who the man was. I wonder if she was not saved, if someone came to the gates of Hell when she was baptized and said "You've been baptized Susan, you can come out and go to Heaven now". If you believe in the Lord you are saved. If not, you are lost. You don't get a second chance after you die.
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Susan Christine Giganti
I know a person who is a member of the Church of LDS and their job is to look up family genealogies for the purpose of making sure they are baptized as Mormons. Even if they were not related to any LDS members. So the website lies. The official policy isn’t what is practiced.
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Lyle Roy Gleason
Why do you think that every Mormon Stake has a Genealogical Center that anyone can come in and use to trace their family heritage? After you've left, they access your info, to be included into their baptismal lists. My folks found this out when they were tracing our families in one of their centers in Salt Lake City. THEY LIE, THEY LIE,THEY LIE!!!
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Ralph A. Lawrence
The phrase, "to posthumously baptize descendants of living Mormons", I believe should be "ancestors of living Mormons". Right? Most descendants of living Mormons would still be alive.
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P. Keith Benefiel
Too silly for words
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Melda Lundstrom
I feel it really doesn’t matter to the dead if some group of people baptize them. The deceased have moved on anyway. It only pleases one self-absorbed church and seems pretty offensive to some people of faith (i.e.Christian and Jewish people mentioned in the article, could be more people). I sense the deaspd have moved on and there is religion on the other side being religion is a man made construct.
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Melda Lundstrom
Considering there is long longer a need for religion after one has passed over, seems the LDS may not know the truth even that, baptism was only used for the living to ensure one’s journey to heaven.
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Julie Armstrong
I think this is totally wrong. What are they trying to do? Gain Brownie Points for GOD. This is not how it works. Some people believe burial is scared. This CULT should not be able to impose their themselves on others. Permission would need to be asked first. This just proves how much they aren't a RELIGION. Yes it doesn't matter once gone, spirit has left. It is the principal. I know people that follow this organization, they still believe it's ok for old men to marry under age Baby Girls (pedophiles). The so call leader in his speech in 2021 said he can't wait to have multiple wives again(Gross). Almost nothing surprise me this CULT
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Lynda Louisse Dickerson
The Mormon Church uses 12 and 13 year old girls to act as the "proxys" for these baptisms. That's because the girls are tall enough to stand above the water in the baptismal font and light enough to be easily dunked. This is no mere sprinkling of water. This is full immersion baptism. These are not single baptisms. There is a long list of names of the deceased, for which the "proxy" is repeatedly dunked. A separate prayer is said for each name. Then the girl is dunked for that person. Then they go on to the next one and the next one until they've gone through all the names on the list. It's kind of fun. The water in the font is nice and warm. How do I know all this? I was that little girl. No one forced me to do this. I signed up for it. I felt it an honor and I was treated respectfully. Mormons really believe that they are the only group that knows how to get into heaven. You don't think of it as arrogance when you're on the inside. But when you're on the "inside", everyone else is on the "outside", and that's a problem.
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Sondra Michelle Patrick
I have read ALOT of the comments on this post. Saw a lot of people being offended, about the baptism for the dead and that the LDS church does nothing but lie and it’s a cult.
First, let me say that I am not LDS, I was raised Baptist, but my in-laws are LDS, and never once did they try and "convert" me. When I would have questions, they would answer and if I disagreed with some LDS church rules, they were ok with it and that was the end of it.
Second, tell me one religion in this world that has not lied, cheated, or done something horrible or had people do something horrible in the name of God or otherwise. You can’t because we are all human.
Third, The RLDS church is the church that believes in multiple wives and any man who thinks he can handle more than one wife and those wives like sharing and can’t think for themselves then go for it and see how far that gets you. Cody Brown learned the hard way.
Forth, I can find a lot more things in this world that we live in to fight about, that matters more than the baptism of the dead. Just because you or I don't agree with it doesn't make it right or wrong. Everyone is offended by just about everything these days.
And last I was once told by a devote Christian that a man called Jesus started a religion that was considered a “cult” at one time.
These are my opinions, and you can agree or disagree that’s life and the world that we live in. Just remember Jesus loves us no matter what religion we are, and we will all be judged in the end.
Guess some people have nothing better to do then to complain and whine about anything. There is no such thing as a posthumous baptism and I will say this outright. ANYONE who thinks there is is one of the biggest fools breathing air. Go look at the definition of baptism, it reads "the religious rite of sprinkling water onto a person's forehead or of immersion in water, symbolizing purification or regeneration and admission to the Church. In many denominations, baptism is performed on young children and is accompanied by name-giving." Now exactly HOW can anyone with any brain cells think for one second that if the Mormons are doing this (and I highly dont think they are as the church of the Latter Day Saints have REFUTED this more times then swiss cheese has holes) because to baptize a person you must do it actually TO THEM IE THAT PERSON, a stand in does not work and never will according to The Book of Mormon or the Bible or the Quran or Hebrew Tanakh/Miqra or any other religious book out there. Sounds like this is just another anti religious line of Bull that someone made up. Dont believe me then contact them yourself instead of being stupid and gullible and believing this tripe.
Church of the Latter Day Saints Offices 50 E North Temple Street Salt Lake City, Utah 84150 1-801-240-1000
Paul was being sarcastic when he mentioned baptism for the dead. When I was a kid, I was baptized for the dead so many times that I didn’t need to bathe for weeks at a time. Now that I’m no longer a member, I really don’t care what the Mormons do, so long as they leave me the heck alone… dead or alive.
I visited the LDS website (churchofjesuschrist.org). Among many other things, they have a section on baptism of the dead. For example:
"Who can be baptized for the dead? Any member of the Church who is at least 12 years old may be baptized for the dead. Young men must hold the priesthood. Most importantly, everyone who enters the house of the Lord must be worthy. You and your bishop or one of his counselors will determine your worthiness in an interview."
I've read about this practise before. Baptism for the dead (in which a living person, acting as proxy, is baptized by immersion on behalf of a deceased person of the same sex) is an ordinance of the church, performed only in temples.
And the LDS heads in Salt Lake say this is wrong. So who do we believe, you or them?
Since the "LDS heads" (a nice, vague, generic term) know the content of their own, official website, the website reflects their official beliefs. So the website and the "LDS heads" would, by necessity, be in agreement.
I don't know to whom you supposedly spoke since you lack a mountain of specifics such as any names, ranks in the church, phone numbers called, etc. so I can only go with what the LDS Church officially states as opposed to an unsupported claim.
It's not a question of believing me or them. It's simply accepting what they say on an official church website over which they have control of content. I accept what they say about their own doctrines and practises.
Really? I guess you missed the point that I posted the LDS OFFICES in Salt Lake City and GAVE you the address and phone number for you to call and check. or is that too hard for you to do?
IF it's wrong, then why is it at the LDS website? People can say anything; the website is in black-and-white and there for anyone to see. Have YOU visited the website "or is that too hard for you to do?"
That's the point. I DID check. On an official church outlet of information. You basically say "I called someone and they agreed with me. Trust me."
I don't.
You can also find the information in “Section 128, Baptism for the Dead,” Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual (2002), 316–19
Or an in-depth look at the practise at: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/baptisms-for-the-dead?lang=eng
Now I realize that's not as powerful as me just saying I talked to some, unspecified "head". Sorry. I went with verifiable citations, instead.
I used to be a Latter-day Saint. I used to stand in proxy for the dead being baptized. I know for a fact that this practice continues to this day. Interestingly, The Book of Mormon - in III or IV Nephi somewhere - Jesus says to the inhabitants of America that baptism is for the living and useless to the dead. To claim that the practice is just anti-Mormon rhetoric is sheer ignorance.
You better do your research before commenting next time. This is one of their beliefs and practices
I did my research and even contacted them in Salt Lake City, and they said exactly what I said here. So maybe you should know what you are talking about before talking, or are you now trying to tell the whole leadership of the Mormon religion that they are wrong and you are right?
Daniel’s right — all religious books should be located in the fiction section of public libraries, and book stores.
Read the Book "Mormon Doctrine". Published by Dessert Publishing Company and buy in any Mormon Bookstore. They do and are practicing such baptisms. And technically it is acceptable to baptise an infant who has just passed in the Catholic Church or a adolescent or adult who has passed if they requested baptism and no one was there who felt qualified to baptism that person. As long as the body is there with consent anyone can baptism them. Usually doesn't happen very often but has happened on the battlefield and in normal life. But not the same thing that LDS practice. And they have had a tendency to lie about their practices in the past. They wish to identify as Christians and they are not. I would argue that the RLDS are, but they still believe in the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price and Doctrines and Covenants (their own revised version). Now that the US recognizes plural marriages under the Biden Administration I can guarantee LDS will start practicing plural marriages again.
The US does not recognize plural marriages, in fact I believe they are illegal.
Already did and spoke with the LDS offices in Salt Lake City and I have given the address and phone number of the offices and they have stated that this is utter BS as they DO NOT allow baptisms for the dead and have not allowed it since the 70's. So again who do we believe, you or the people who run the religion?
They lied. In fact, for quite a while, they would not allow black people to join their church. When they were threatened by having their non-profit status taken away, then they allowed them in. I think that is racist, too. They are very morally superior.
Who are you to tell another thIer beliefs are wrong. God alone calls his children to his service none have the the right to challenge the all almighty they Believe as their hearts lead them. Judge not least you!! Be Judged
I used to be a Latter-day Saint. I used to stand in proxy for the dead being baptized. I know for a fact that this practice continues to this day. Interestingly, The Book of Mormon - in III or IV Nephi somewhere - Jesus says to the inhabitants of America that baptism is for the living and useless to the dead. To claim that the practice is just anti-Mormon rhetoric is sheer ignorance.
I used to be a Latter-day Saint. I used to stand in proxy for the dead being baptized. I know for a fact that this practice continues to this day. Interestingly, The Book of Mormon - in III or IV Nephi somewhere - Jesus says to the inhabitants of America that baptism is for the living and useless to the dead. To claim that the practice is just anti-Mormon rhetoric is sheer ignorance.
I just called them, Daniel, and they told me they do practice posthumous baptisms by performing proxy baptisms. They even told me that they have that information on their website as well so you either spoke to someone who lied to you, or you lied about ever calling them.
I was married to a Mormon and know much about the church. They do baptize the dead which I think is arrogant, too. They believe that when everyone has been baptized that the second coming will come and they know exactly where it will be, in a small town in Missouri. Many Mormons have moved there. The town had tried to keep them out, but lost that battle. In my opinion, the Mormon church is a cult.
@ Daniel Gray Who are you to say how the LDS Church defines baptism? You might want to learn about the LDS religion and how they define who can be baptized. I you made the effort you would see just how wrong you are.
I dont define anything, I go by what the Church leaders say. Now who exactly are you to say they are wrong?
I would take my foot out of my mouth before you shove it so far you choke to death. The LDS Church is known for its constant lying which was a fault of Joseph Smith.
But, at least they don't chop your head off for the lies the Muslims hold to, especially the lie that they are a peaceful religion.
@Keith Allen Steele Eash Mormons peaceful? They just go out and kill, including their own.
February 2023 LDS Church $500 Million Ponzi scheme results in FBI shooting and at least 1 dead.
LDS Church Bishop and town mayor arrested for child molestation are raping young children.
LDS Church Mountain Meadow Massacre kills 120
At least Muslims obey their religion when they chop of heads. LDS church members kill when it's in their best interest and say it's in the name of God.
Mommons w
Daniel Gray, if you believe ANYTHING that an LDS official says, either on the website, in person, or in print, then you should be given a plate of warm milk and cookies, and then sent off to bed to dream of cloud-coocoo land! And, by the way, I just happened to have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you!
The Mormons have an extensive history of lying that would make Trump seem like George Washington! The lies all began with that noted charlatan and bunco-artist Joseph Smith, who formed a new religion of his own designed to shake down its followers and marry whomever strikes his fancy, and continues to this present day! The only reason polygamy was abolished was as a compromise to finally gain statehood. I would highly recommend a book called "American Massacre", which will educate you about the TRUE origins and beliefs of the Mormon Church, and "Salamander", about the Church's beliefs today. Do your research, I ALREADY HAVE!!!
@Daniel Gray I am someone who took the time to read the LDS doctrine about LDS church baptism. Try reading, you might learn something.
Just remember Donald Trump never told a lie either..
It is very true that Mormons baptize by proxy. They believe that when the last person on earth is baptized, that will herald the second coming of Christ. They even know where that will happen. I can't remember the state or name of the town where this is to take place, but the town has tried taking legal measures to keep Mormons out of it but failed. They are a very arrogant people and very morally superior. I was told by my Mormon ex-husband that theirs is the one and only true religion on earth. Now that is a cult.