ISIS's attempt to drag us all back to the dark ages is based on their harmful use of hateful, radical jihadist ideologies that they justify with passages of the Qu 'ran. We look at the Westboro Baptist Church as a similar theology of fundamentalist insanity in the name of God. They, like ISIS, never performed any services to the public through their faith other than mere hatred and antagonism. Both groups are the same with one exception: Westboro didn't actually chop off anyone's head (they just picket funerals).
The crazed fundamentalists of all religions call for the subversion of equal rights - they deny the words of our Constitution which grant that all men are created equal and replace them with words from antiquity which they claim are holy. Here in America, we even allow tax exemptions to bigoted ideologies that seek to hold back society with their unproven, personal beliefs taken from ancient books written by men who claim divine inspiration. Where is the beyond a reasonable doubt evidence or the preponderance of evidence that would pass the bar of scientific scrutiny?
Our society incentivizes these divisive lunatic beliefs while secular views of equality and acceptance of science are not allowed to enjoy tax exemptions because they don't believe that the hereafter is waiting with glory and virgins, or that a snake talked. Now is the time to call for reforms in tax law. Thereby making all religions prove that beheading, stoning, and even denying equality is prohibited. We need to mandate by law that any group, religious or secular that fails to put in its bylaws a clause of non-discrimination based on belief, gender, orientation, or race be barred from incorporating and not given tax-exempt status anywhere in the United States and its territories.
What do you think?
The Constitutional Question
Technically, churches are "people" and people have freedom of speech. This means a call to bar some groups from incorporation based on speech and expression raises some questions as to whether it is Constitutional.
There are, however, limits to freedoms, including speech. Some examples are obscenity, "fighting words," and incitement to imminent violent actions. We are we've all heard that you can't falsely shout, "Fire!" in a crowded theater. Well, that's actually a bit of a misnomer but it will help prove our point.
In the 1919 Supreme Court case of Schenck v. United States, Oliver Holmes wrote that causing such a dangerous panic by untrue words was not protected speech. What isn't widely known is that this was later clarified in another Supreme Court case (Brandenburg v. Ohio). It wasn't that the false warning caused "clear and present danger" that would deem it unprotected, but rather, the speech must incite "imminent lawless action."
This distinction made by the Supreme Court paves the way for the reforms mentioned above. Specifically, if a religious text or ideology can be shown to directly incite lawless action, it is not protected by the 1st Amendment. This means that fundamentalist beliefs that would directly lead to actions such as attempting to stop legislation for equal pay for equal work, or ban marriage equality, or allow racial prejudice cannot use the excuse of freedom of speech. The result of these political actions is a society in violation of the equal protection clause of the Constitution: lawlessness. This is why, for example we saw the courts put an end to segregation, or strike down state bans on marriage equality.
Today we believe that any "holy" writings, unless it can be verified to be written by a true deity, beyond a reasonable doubt, be subjected censorship for the good of the whole society. In other words, hate speech, incitement to violence, subversive acts of any nature, written or spoken is against the rule of concern, compassion, and cooperation.
What do you think?
Planting the Seeds
Secular (business) corporations are already subject to laws of non-discrimination against protected classes. The big change we are calling for is in the religious sector. Religions must not be tax-exempt for saying, "you deserve to die," or, "only we are the chosen people and our rights trump others' rights," or denying jobs or homes to people who rub their religious sentiments the "wrong way."
Words and notions codified in ancient scriptures have no place in a modern, civil society. We are not a Christian nation, nor are we an Islamic caliphate! We are the United States of America; 50 sovereign states with a preamble giving our people the right to choose under the banner of humanity and peace.
What do you think?
Universally, it is not in mankind's best interest to promulgate these religious texts as is. We've let them carry on for thousands of years now and they are used to justify terrorism, racism, sexism, homophobia, and the denial and hindrance of scientific progress.
What's interesting to observe is how readily members of one religion dismiss the beliefs of other faiths. We don't know how many times we've heard Christians call for an American ban of Sharia Law, only to turn around and attempt to create a Christian theocracy! Or Satanists planning to put up public statues designed to offend others in response to their personal offense to the 10 Commandments in public places. Oh, the irony.
What this shows is that there is overlapping consensus that religion ought not to infringe on individual freedoms in society. The hurdle we must overcome is that many folks fail to see how their own religion does this very thing. That's understandable, particularly if you were raised within a faith tradition.
The solution then must involve changing each religion from the inside out. We need to pull religious texts into the modern era.
Rewrite, Revise, Revitalize
Many religious texts were written for a specific audience, and chances are, we are not it. Mosaic Law in Leviticus was for the early Jews. Books in the New Testament of the Bible were directly addressed to early Christian churches in Asia Minor. The Baha'i writings of the Bab were meant to influence nineteenth century Persians, etc. Modern people need a modern message designed just for our century. Talking snakes, fiery flying chariots, and angels don't appear to us anymore (unless perhaps they manifest as UFOs on radar screens).
There is a long tradition of adapting these writings. The Bible, for example, has been translated hundreds of times including entirely different versions such as the English Standard Version which seems to deny the virgin birth of Christ.
Why do we need to revise all holy books now? Islamic jihad against Christians and others from ISIS, the killing of gays and lesbians by Evangelicals in Uganda, a constant turf war between Israelis and Palestinians, and the oppression of people all over the globe are stemming from beliefs instilled by religious passages. The religions themselves aren't the issue, just these sections of text.
The current President of Egypt, Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, made a recent speech calling for a religious revolution and decrying how strong the link is between passages in the Qu 'ran and the violence we see from terrorists groups:
It's inconceivable that the thinking that we hold most sacred should cause the entire _umma [Islamic world] to be a source of anxiety, danger, killing and destruction for the rest of the world. Impossible!_
That thinking I am not saying "religion" but "thinking" that corpus of texts and ideas that we have sacralized over the centuries, to the point that departing from them has become almost impossible, is antagonizing the entire world. It's antagonizing the entire world!
We hope other religious and world leaders and you would also turn your gaze inward and comb through your own religious traditions for seeds of violence and hatred. Let's work with the peace-loving and just members of all faiths to trim the harmful fat from sacred books. Through revision, we can revitalize religion and human rights. Through calls for political action we can put an end to incentivizing divisive ideologies. No longer can we stand by and witness violence, shackled by a misguided, politically-correct notion of freedom; freedom to turn on our brothers, freedom to oppress them, freedom to destroy the planet. True freedom is to not be infringed upon. It is time religion stopped infringing on us.
Let us hear your thoughts, and forward this to your friends.
Sources:
Conservative Tribune
Patheos
Civil Liberties
Seattle Global List
CNN
Inquisitr
NewsMax
439 comments
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Loyel Collier
i disagree about Angels not appearing to us anymore. I positively saw one a decade ago in my home when I began studying them. I was not dreaming, not asleep, and he (the angel) had a European look, short blond hair and I can't tell you what he was wearing, because I was concentrating on his beautiful face. I new he was peaceful from first sight. I even said twice, "it's an angel". He then turned and simply disappeared. I believe I was rewarded for my diligence in my studies. It was definitely an experience I will never forget.
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Krvin DeFranco
Isis, Islam, Westboro, Satanists are all extreme freaks. They are all disgusting. However, don't lump a real Christian in with the main stream that declares the world to be only 6 thousand years old. The Bible does not say that at all. Any real Christian who can read, can understand from science and technology that it is millions of years old. This "earth age" is thousands of years old, but there was an age before this when every soul created by God was in spirit, until the attempted overthrow of Satan. The true Word of God does not shackle you or have you in constant fear. Unfortunately, main stream Christian ministries, local, and televised don't teach the true Word. It usually boils down to control, and making MONEY!!!!! The Word is very specific as to how God feels about certain things. We can either do it or not, its His Word though and to reject it is at our own peril.
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Joe Stutler
I always find it sadly amusing when someone declares that their particular flavor of their faith is the one true interpretation and the others aren't "real". Same with folks who say their faith is the one true faith, and lump other faiths together with some abomination. The No True Scotsman fallacy doesn't have a place in rational discussion, except perhaps as an example of how not to do it.
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Krvin DeFranco
The Word is true. There are thousands of denominations, but only one reality and that is the Word. Only one final resting place, that is with God. rational discussion, enlightened thinking, is great for you, if this is your final destination and you think all you'll be is worm food after this. I put my trust in God, His Word, His path. Traditions of men, well we've all seen how that turns out huh. The proof is in the pudding; if you're happy with it, have at it. There are many examples of how not to do it in the Bible. You decide if God is real and if His Word is real. You decide who you trust. How ever, in your "smugness" you are guilty of the same declaration that my faith is how not to do it. Amusing...isn't it.
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Joe Stutler
Ah, you noticed that. Good...it was rather intentional. Yours is but one of countless perspectives on your god...and certainly no better or more 'true' than any of the rest.
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Krvin DeFranco
We'll see Mr. "higher critic" we'll see.
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D.Marrillo
You may put your trust in God as you view him, but you may be surprised. God is not as limited or limiting as you think. If he's all powerful then he could encompass all denominations and " the word would have many meanings.
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Mankind Global Media (@mankindglobal)
I don't think the statement qualifies as a NTS fallacy.
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Joe Stutler
"...don’t lump a real Christian in with the main stream..." Certainly a NTS.
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
And the Scotsmen are really getting tired of having their beloved national logical fallacy used so often with out their getting compensated for it.
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Grant Martin
Kevin, I would suggest you read the Koran (Qu 'ran). The Koran specifically states that the killing of the innocent is a sin. Also, Jesus is mentioned more often, than Mohammad. If you feel Islam to be the enemy, then be like Sun Su, and study your enemy.
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Krvin DeFranco
O.K. thanks.
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Brother John
The Bible goes beyond studying your enemy. See Matt 5:44. How can any Christian preach hate and intolerance in the face of Christ's teaching?
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Mark Niemann
I so agree with this. Violence is destructive and non-productive.
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BJ Barber
The Bible is just that the Bible. Anyone that can read will understand it. No changes should be made. This is just a money making venture for someone.
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Susan Atkinson
The problem is that ever since the Council of Nicea, MEN have decided what books, epistles, and gospels have been allowed to be included in what became the Christian Bible and that translation errors and personal biases have crept in over the centuries. Jesus was essentially inrebellion against many or the 'laws' of the old testament; he preached a God of love and acceptance, not one of jealousy and merciless revenge for presumed slights. Modern Christians need to concentrate more on the teachings of the New Testament, not the ancient teachings of the Old, which were for another society and time.
Modern Muslim jihadists, although Mohammed himself preached jihad at one point, are deeply influenced by the split between Shia and Sunni Islam which occurred after the death of the Prophet as a power struggle over who would control the religion that endures to this day. In addition, the poverty and corruption in many Middle Eastern countries as well as ..in my opinion..the ill-conceived founding of the State of Israel and it's movement from real self defense to ethnic terrorism have not helped that region one bit. One thing that many Westerners don't realize is that Sharia Law is created by men who justify it by words of the Prophet often taken out of context or misinterpreted as many modern Christians do the Bible.
The pervasive climate of mutual mistrust and fear combined with economic problems is more of a cause of the problems than the religious differences that men use to manipulate 'followers'. That applies to Christians, Jews, and Muslims alike.
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Christel
Jesus was not "in rebellion against" many laws of the old testament. You do greatly error. Read the words of Christ in the Revelation and see that he is both Beginning and End. How does he reject his own laws if he is indeed the beginning? Jesus sent letters to "the churches" plural, they were all "doing their own thing"; read and see how he views the churches and what becomes of the matter. Jesus called people out who held fast to their laws. He said, "you wash the cup on the inside, but the outside is dirty". The people knew the laws, but followed not the spirit of the Lord. He disagreed with their behavior concerning the laws not his own understanding of the laws of God, which laws he wrote in the beginning. He is Alpha and Omega.
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Jim Donald
You got it right Susan. It was down to men. Control of the female and all natural bodily functions is an indication of fear of the limited intellect.
Hang on, "Sue, put another log on the fire and mix me up some bacon and beans!"
Now where were we? Oh yes, just because something is old, doesn't mean it's right!
Otherwise, the religions of Egypt and Mesopotamia would definitely be the real ones. Or the religion of the Celts, Druids, Chinese, Australian Aboriginals etc should be considered "real".
Personally, I have no desire to live under any of those, as none has the balance necessary to bring harmony to the world.
Jewish literature and culture can only be dated back to Babylonian captivity and the stories of Gilgamesh and the culture memory from Egypt, the amalgamation being the Bible.
But, in the context of history, and the gradual development of society and ultimately, democracy, such things were necessary for the great ignorant and innocent crowd of our ancestors.
Love to all, Jim
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Brother John
You"re correct, BJ. Christianity and the Bible have been, and continue to be, a money making venture. Churches have amassed incredible wealth and power over the centuries and will protect their turf at all costs. Convincing enough people that only their book is the only truth is a key element in their continuation.
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Dale
Namaste,
At the age of 15 I was asked what did I believe in, my response was easy - people. Considering my childhood was very brutal I never expected to come to the spiritually informed place I find today. My path took me to Healer, Therapist and Guide, I see a beautiful, wonderful potential in all and wish to aid this through any guidance I may be able to provide.
An amazing writer known as Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie gave a TedTalk and in this talk I captured a few words that opened a powerful door. 'It is not culture that makes people, but people that make culture'. We are growing consciously and expanding inwardly to places never expected, it seems only sensible that old texts have adjustments made.
If we are to learn from history it would be that violence never taught powerful lessons such as love, harmony and caring, it only used fear of the whip to create a fearful race of people.
I hold a perspective of God being magnanimous, and filling everyone with love, wisdom and self learning. Only the jealous Ego would ever hold any of this back. Change is overdue.
Shar-Ka-Tana
Namaste
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Brad Ewing
I like the idea and would give consideration to regularly convening the codifying of information at appropriate era's or generations.
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Collette Horton
I do not think we should alter the bible in any way. You don't go back and change the word of God. Judging all people that believe the bible by what a few but jobs do is as bad as any other type of discrimination.
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Joe Stutler
The Bible has been edited and revised and translated since the stories were first created (many from earlier faiths) then written later. At what point should that alteration have ceased? In the original texts (Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek)? Translations into Latin?
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
The original Klingon, methinks.
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D.Marrillo
Are you kidding,this isn't the word of God only men. I've never heard God talk and I've certainly never got a manuscript from him.
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Ty Ford
I think that any time a person attempts to interpret the Bible (or some other religious text), the result is very likely to be flawed because it's done by a human. This hasn't stopped people from interpreting these texts. Even if their intent is pure, the outcome may be incorrect.
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George Martin
Evil men do evil things. There is but one way to deal with evil.
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Cindyloo33
I don't believe we should revise old works, they are history, and by rewriting them we are just truly creating a fictional story, no matter how we feel it will befit the masses. Not that these books weren't written with some or a lot of imagination. What I believe will be helpful, would be to create a book, where we have added a new insight into an old way of story telling. The issue I see arising from this, is that we all have different versions of what the truths really are. I know that I am one person who would love to see the world take another look. Maybe by explaining a new way of interpreting these old belief systems, some will take notice. This is will be a slow process no matter how we approach it.
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Pastor Roy
God's word never changes. Same sex marriage is still a sin and so is marriage of different beliefs. To try to change the word of God I would have to go against you. I am a minister for God and not of your beliefs.
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Joe Stutler
"God's" word has changed many, many times. As for sin, so is wearing cotton-poly blends and eating pork and shrimp...I trust you do none of those things nor the rest of the proscribed behaviors and actions. You are a minister with but one perspective on who your god is and what your god stands for.
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Krvin DeFranco
Wearing cotton poly blends, and eating shrimp, and pork. You really show your ignorance Big Joe. wearing two different types of clothing: mentioned in Leviticus, in the same paragraph where homosexuality is denounced. This means that men should not wear women's clothes and women should not wear men's clothes, relates to the fact that they should not represent the opposite sex in intercourse. Eating shrimp, and pork is a health law and has nothing to do with spiritual salvation. If you want to eat scavengers go ahead, no sweat, for you.
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Joe Stutler
So you get to cherry-pick and otherwise interpret what you believe your god wants. So, do you eat pork & shrimp? Do you wear cotton-poly blends? How about the rest of the laws...do you follow Jesus' teachings in this regard...you know, Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
Sounds to me like someone is trying to justify his bigotry and hypocrisy by claiming it's his god's fault.
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Krvin DeFranco
Joe, you destroy your arguments with your own recitation of Matt:5,17 Jesus Christ was the Word made flesh. Old and New Testament . Pork, and shrimp are health law related and YES.. sometimes I eat them. Poly blends and mixed fabric have nothing to do with interchanging sexual roles in intercourse. I probably have worn poly blends at some time or another. Face it Joe, your frustration comes from some one shooting down your lame effort to disprove the Bible with Scripture and that's something you can't do because God...is. period.
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Joe Stutler
I see. You admit you continue to sin, and you reject the teachings of Jesus when he told us that he was not here to abolish the Law. You really should read your Bible. Until you repent, how about you stop pretending you have any clue what your talking about, certainly not enough to preach to any here.
Matthew 5:17-20 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
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Krvin DeFranco
first of all, you cherry picked with the pork, shrimp, and poly blend b.s. eating pork, or shrimp is a sin against the flesh, not the spirit. God is spirit, we get back to Him in His dimension by following His laws and commandments You have spent many paragraphs denouncing the Word of truth as nothing more than a fairy tale, or comic book. I know that Christ did not come to abolish the law. I believe every single thing that Christ said. You on the other hand fail to realize that Christ is the Word made flesh. In dismissing the Word of God, you dismiss and marginalize Christ Himself. Wake up. By the way there isn't a human being on earth that doesn't sin. That's the joy of redemption, repenting. I fall short just like everyone else but I repent and am forgiven. You have contempt for the Word and contempt for those who believe it. Now you try to diminish my beliefs with very same Scriptures you disavow. Do you realize how foolish that makes you look? I will no longer cast pearls before swine. A Dios.
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Joe Stutler
I put out a few examples, you admit you sin, yet you try to excuse yourself because you somehow think you know better than I or anyone else. It's not that I'm dismissing Jesus and his teachings. It's simply that I'm dismissing your assertion that you are in any way authoritative on the topic. Perhaps if you didn't spend so much time focusing on the mote in my eye you'd notice the forest growing in yours. I'll pray for you.
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Krvin DeFranco
Don't pray for me. I do not want blessings from any God image you follow. Its not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, so you keep it. I do know about the King James 1611 version of the Bible, you know the one you loathe as ancient creative writing. Any one who says they don't sin is a liar. As long as I am in the flesh I will be subject to sin and must battle spiritually to overcome temptation. The Word has what I need to do it. I don't need any validation from the likes of you,, you don't even know the basics. you put in your eye whatever is in there, I know there's a cess pool behind them. You continue to try and dispute the Word and you step in it every time you try. Go play with your toys.
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Joe Stutler
What a very "Christian" thing to say...if by Christian, you're shooting for Westboro Baptist Church. (btw, I'm not disputing the Word here...I'm just disputing your male bovine excrement. We were warned to beware of you. Matthew 7:15)
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
"Don't pray for him, Joseph Stutler..."
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Joe Stutler
"...The truth is I never left you..."
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Fred
How far back does your research go? Just a question?
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Christel
"Gods" word has changed many, many times? hmm.... No. You are fierce to no end (in other words it benefits nothing). Your words are empty like your head. You serve the creature and not the creator; God is not the God of confusion. Lots of words over words does not an intellectual informed conversation make. Like a text: STOP... send. If you set out to sound profound at least pray for yourself before you open your mouth. Anyone can find an excerpt out of the bible and quote it; no great new venture there.
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Brother John
Thankfully we have laws that override that of your God, Pastor Roy. Try following these or many others and you'll find yourself preaching to a prison population. The alternative is to be a hypocrite and not practice what you preach, which is the choice you've made (unless you're posting from prison).
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
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Lewis
The laws you are citing from Leviticus were part of the Mosaic Covenant between God and the nation of Israel for that time and place. That covenant changed when Jesus arrived, and while he did not come to abolish the law, he did institute a new covenant between God and man, essentially making it possible for all peoples to be counted as children of God. Jesus made it so salvation was not gained by works, but by faith in him, repentance of sin, and the grace of God.
By citing archaic laws from the Old Testament, you demonstrate that you understand neither Christianity nor the Scriptures.
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Joe Stutler
So, by that logic we get to ignore the decalogue, pretty much all of the sins, anti-gay rhetoric, and so on. Good to know that the Bible no longer has any problem with same-gender marriage.
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Krvin DeFranco
I have never said the Old Testament isn't relevant. Queers marrying each other is still an offence In God's eye. It's His eyes you should be worried about and not what's in mine. The only thing you continue to prove is that you are the most negative ass hole I've ever encountered. What you fail to realize is that there are people out there that don't and will never be in-step with your bull shit. And you are an artist at that. This site is made up of all different types not just you. Pagan's Wiccan's Jews and other types of Cults. Even you; The Church of Eternal Negativity. I guess your right about Sasquatch, comparing him to you is not fair to him. However He is mythical and you are a legend in your own mind. If I'm trolling, I'm trolling for trolls like yourself to see how the nether world operates. The truth is: you can't stand it when anybody tags you for exactly what you are, a negative vulture preying on well meaning people who voice their opinions about their faith and when some one comes along and pricks you back you label them as a cult. What a coward.
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Joe Stutler
And still you keep purporting to speak for a god...such arrogance. And still you keep spewing the ad hominems...such douchbaggery. I'm sure you must attract many converts to your cult with that welcoming love. Yes. I know what this site is and who we are. I am home here, with many like-minded people. Are you?
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Lewis
From the Christian standpoint, there is absolutely no way to ignore the OT. That would be folly. It's important to understand the history, laws, and prophecies because they point to Christ. But when the Christian person seeks to live their life in accordance with what God wants, they must turn to the New Testament, not the Old. Jesus' sermon on the mount in Matthew 5-7 is an excellent summary of what the Christian life should look like.
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Joe Stutler
I don't know whether Sasquatch would feel honored that you think so highly of him, or afraid that you're stalking him knowing all that you know about his habits.
As for me, I'm wondering why you're trolling here on this site, in this faith, in this congregation, instead of hanging out on your own cult's site. All you're really accomplishing is showing how little you know about Judeo-Christianity, the Bible, history, the English language, fallacies, civics, debate....the list goes on.
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Brother John
I do understand both, Lewis. After spending much time studying the several popular versions of the Bible and it's history, I came to the understanding that it is a corrupted collection of ancient "writings" from around 40 different authors over a thousand plus years. It's been edited more than any other holy book by men with their own agendas, principally the early Catholic church, in collusion with various despotic monarchs. I find no point in becoming an expert about confusing details from a book with such a chequered past and have sought the Truth from a variety of more reliable and understandable sources. That being said, yes, there is some wisdom and truth in what we call the Bible, but it is by no means the only source. The ULC community is promoting unity, understanding and acceptance of truth from all sources, including ancient holy texts. This is not the right forum for fundamentalists of any stripe.
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Krvin DeFranco
It sorta looks like God, my God, Pastor Roy's God doesn't care for HOMOSEXUALITY or adultery. It seems to be an abomination to Him. That's quite clear to us, because we believe in the Word of God. We will do as He says. On the other .hand, you don't believe in the Word of God that we follow so its of no consequence to you at all. Do as you like, but don't presume you have any authority over us at all. We don't go out and kill queers. We don't stone adulterers to death, we leave that to Muslims, they even have "honor killings" killing their wives or daughters for various reasons. Lewis is right. Since the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, there is a new covenant. When the veil was rent in the temple, it was the birth of a new era. Now the Holy of Holies was open to all, Jew and Gentile alike. It was not just reserved for the High Priests any more. The Western world does not execute homosexuals for being homosexual. The Western world does not stone adulterers to death. Christian pastors do however make it known to their congregations that disobeying these laws does put their immortal souls in danger. People can take it or leave it, they have free will as do you. Just don't tell us we're out of touch, or bigots, or racist, because we do believe and you don't. If you don't like the channel, change it. If you don't like the Bible, don't read it. If you want to write your own , do it. WE follow the only Authority there is, and you ain't it. Lewis is also right about you not knowing anything about Christianity, or the Bible. You have made many statements about it that just aren't true. You should probably just pack up your hate and move on. I hope you don't have any compulsion to enlighten us any more with your disbelief I for one will be enthusiastically indifferent to any further posts from you and I suggest any other Christian do the same. Being a non believer, whatever you say about OUR believing just isn't relevant to us.
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Joe Stutler
But your homophobia....er, opposition to same-gender marriage....comes from the Old Testament, which you and others have already discounted as not relevant once Jesus rolled into town. Yet more cherries from the orchard in your eye?
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Mr Taylor K Mosher
I am 100 percent against same SEX Marriage !! Period !! And i shall never take part in such a Damned Union !!
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Joe Stutler
I am, too...as I'm heterosexual. So, I don't see myself ever marrying another male, never taking part in such a union. I will, however, perform same gender weddings for those who seek it - and I have - because I'm not a homophobe and I try not to be bigoted. YMMV
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Kevin DeFranco
The book of John states that if you partake in false doctrine, or even wish them Godspeed you are just as culpable. Have a nice trip.
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Joe Stutler
Wonderful. So every time you serve shrimp and pork, every time you wear cotton-poly blends, every time you allow your wife or daughters to leave your home while they're menstruating, you're culpable. Hope you like really warm climes...and sulfur.
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
You know what they say...Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.
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Joe Stutler
Sharia Law? Really? That's what you bring to the table? Sorry, but I just can't take you seriously at all anymore. Great job with the Poe, though...textbook example. Still, I'll pray for you, while you prey on others.
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
If the Biblical book of Leviticus is the basis for Sharia law (which it isn't), then you're absolutely wrong, because those restrictions ARE in there. RTFM.
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Krvin DeFranco
Hi Crash, with the crucifixion, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ all blood ordinances and sacrifices were abolished. Since we are in the 21st Century and health, and hygiene being what it is to lock up your women is kind of Sharian, and outdated. As I said, blood ordinances no longer exist.
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Christel
I believe in civil liberties and civil marriages. There is nothing we can do to prevent it from happening if it is the will of the people they will have their way, however to marry persons using a biblical ceremony is unsound and blasphemous. We all fall short of the glory of God, so we must pray that the God of truth surrounds us with his love and compassion and forgiveness; he who has an ear let him hear what the church says. In the last days God has blinded them so that his will can be done. Go in peace. Zechariah 3 and 4. The angel of the Lord goes before us and Satan is always trying his luck, but no worries; he doesn't win. Indeed we all sin, Christian and heathen. The difference is the Christian eventually falls down with shame and repents, while the heathen justifies their actions and continues in it unwilling to conform in anyway to the biblical teachings that the flesh wars against the spirit to fulfill the lusts thereof. The heathen turn to scripture to try and condemn the Christian and prove the truth to be a lie, well... huh huh...no. We may be lost and even afraid, perhaps even confused, but we are washed by the blood of the lamb and no earthly thing can touch us or harm us if we continue in his love; and yes that means we must trust that God is in control of everything happening. Fear not. Tell the biblical truth without fear and love everyone the same. Loving someone means telling the truth even when it hurts them. Pray that they have a revelation of the holy spirit and be not troubled in your heart.
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JO-ANN
WE HAVE REACHED A POINT THAT THERE IS A DEFINATE SEPERATION BETWEEN CHRISTIANS AND NON-BELIEVERS AND THE BRIDGE NO LONGER EXIST BETWEEN THE TWO...SO...AS A NON-CHRISTIAN YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO MARRY WHOMEVER...WHATEVER YOU WANT.....EVEN A GOAT AND A PIG....IF THATS SOMETHING YOU FEEL YOU MUST DO TO EXPRESS YOUR FREEDOM...THE ARGUMENT IS NOT IF YOU ARE A BIGOT....ITS IF YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD SAID ....NO...IT IS GOD THAT YOU MUST SOMEDAY FACE....I WILL ALWAYS PRAY FOR THE NON-BELIEVER BECAUSE......BUT, FOR THE GRACE OF GOD....THERE GOES I...LOVEJO-ANN
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Regina R. Carson
Rewriting scripture is a very bad idea. It was written the way it was written for a reason. I'm of the Christian faith and am against same sex marriage and the rewriting of scriptures and the worship of false or other Gods for a reason. If you want to know why not to tamper with the scriptures, read the last page of the Book of Revelation in the Bible and see for yourselves why that is not such a good idea. I have been thinking about this for awhile since God says that people of the Christian faith are only supposed to worship and actively participate with people like themselves, but I believe that now is the best time for me to stand up for Jesus and request my ordination and membership be removed from this group. If I'm to be a minister, I would rather be ordained by an organization that believes that serving the true God of Heaven and Earth is the only way to go, and that his precepts, principles, and rules are what is best to follow for the good of mankind becasue that is truly the way it is as some will discover for themselves too late. I hope and pray that anyone here not be among those and that you give yourselves completely and totally to the good of his calling on your lives. We are all loved and blessed by this same, wonderful God every single day whether we like it or not, or whether we believe in him or not. Receiving his blessings until the great and fearful day of The Judgement.
Sincerely Regina R. Carson
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Christy
This requires long and deep thought. Many faithful could be incited to action simply because of a suggestion that their religious text of preference needed a modern rewrite, and then there is historical value to be considered. Although the Bible has been re written in many versions, it still has historical value. All religious texts are windows into ancient times and ways of societies. I think the focus should be on the continued effort to uphold constitutional law, and that when an organization's belief system runs contrary to that law, the law should prevail. No organization needs to have the power to inflict it's value system on human rights, but tampering with religious texts might create more hatred.
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Jen
Who has the authority to rewrite the Bible? It was written by God- you're all treading on ground where you have no business. For those who don't agree or feel the Bible is for them then they have free will to reject its teachings. The Holy Word of God cannot be rewritten by a mere man, and even the suggestion of that is highly prideful. This article really shows where society is heading, and I pray fervently that eyes will be spiritually opened, and that our Creator shows mercy on our sin stricken world!
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Joe Stutler
No, it was written by men (and likely women), inspired by their god and their culture. You're entitled to your own opinion, you're not entitled to your own facts.
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Mankind Global Media (@mankindglobal)
What you just said is not a "fact."
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Joe Stutler
What part of it wasn't factual? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Bible Perhaps the parenthetical "women" bit is off, but given how many different hands were involved from the beginning until current publications, I can't see women didn't have some impact.
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Krvin DeFranco
You totally discount he fact that the Bible is divinely inspired. When Jesus Christ was crucified in 33 A.D. He said, while on the cross, "My God, My God why has Thou forsaken me" . He was teaching us, that at that moment prophesy was fulfilled. Psalm 22: written approximately 800- to 1000 years before the event right down to the gnats ass predicts every happening including the Roman soldiers gambling for Christ's garments. You hold nothing but contempt for the Word and will play a heavy price. Ironically, you don't even realize that you are part of prophesy. In the end times, "the great famine will not be for food and drink, but for knowledge of the Word of God"
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Debra Huddleston
Kevin, once again, why do we have to believe what you believe? I don't ask you to believe what I believe.
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Krvin DeFranco
I don't recall asking, or demanding that "you" believe anything.
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Debra Huddleston
You are speaking as if we should all believe what you say, and insinuating we are wrong if we don't.
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Krvin DeFranco
Debra, I respect your right to believe any thing you want to believe, however you want believe it. I neither condemn you or applaud you. Your views on salvation have nothing to do with mine or mine with yours. The path to God is written ,for all, Jew and Gentile alike. What you do with this knowledge is up to you. I'm speaking to you in a loving way. Would it be a loving way to lead you down the wrong path? I realize that what I believe to be true is relative to me, you can accept it or reject it. That's up to you. The Word of God however, is what it is. I let the chips fall where they lay and do not apologize for the Word of God. My comments are directed toward a mis guided fool who passes himself off as professorial when actually he's a pseudo-intellectual liberal, progressive which by the way has nothing to do with God, but a humanistic secular view of life.
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Christel
that statement is an oxymoron.
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Christel
Clarification: "why do we have to believe what you believe? I don't ask you to believe what I believe." That is an oxymoron, literally. By the way who is "we"? We are legion, for we are many? If the argument is concerning biblical teaching there is no argument to be had the bible is clear and concise, but not everyone can abide by it, if they did they would have to change.
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Krvin DeFranco
As for women having an impact: I guess you missed the book of Ruth, of Debra who led an army, of Helga who was the head of the theological seminary. You are a fake, just shooting his mouth off condemning Christians for believing the Word of God.
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Debra Huddleston
I did not condemn anyone. I said I respect your opinion and am simply asking you to respect mine, or at least respect that not everyone believes the way you do. I am speaking to you in a Christian way. How are you speaking to me?
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James
Good job Kevin stick to your guns and always let God lead you this stuff about rewriting the Bible is crazy i got ordained because i felt that God called me i will not be led down the wrong path be mer men or women if satan can't keep me from God no one else will God bless....
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Krvin DeFranco
I apologize for the statement about women of the Bible Debra, That comment was meant for someone else.
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Susan
We are all divinely inspired from time to time. However, that inspiration is modified by our culture and beliefs. No scripture is safe from culture.
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
"Divine inspiration" is a doctrine or dogma espoused by a number of churches, temples, cults, etc., and does not constitute fact in any way, shape, or form. In other words, "one of these things is not like the others..."
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Christel
Crash Override, Divine inspiration is NOT a doctrine and doctrine is NOT dogma. You are off the rails. You are right about one thing though, "One of these things is not like the other(s)".
Divine inspiration is a fact, it has happened to every prophet throughout history; and some of them wrote it down.
Perhaps you will have a divine experience one day yourself and write about it, God willing. How can people proclaim God and nothing divine ever happens to them? That would suck.
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Brother John
A couple of corrections, Jen. The Bible was not "written by God", but rather by around 40 different people, nearly all men, over more than 1000 years, and edited numerous times by men who granted themselves the authority to do so. I agree that we all have the right to reject the teachings of the Bible and most sane people, including yourself, do not arrange a block party to stone your adulterous neighbours or a disobedient child to death as commanded. If the Bible is correct, it's god has killed more humans than all of our wars combined, including reducing the Earth's population to Noah and his family. This is not mercy.
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Rev. Richard Loose
leave well enough alone.
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Krvin DeFranco
I wish you had posted this earlier, I could have saved myself a lot of wasted time.
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Christel
Kevin, I admire your passion for biblical truth. keep up the good work. Remember what Paul said, "I am all things to all men that I might save a few". Sometimes one must engage in a conversation and some times refrain. The devil is crafty and desires to sift you as wheat, remember he was once a beautiful angel, he knows a few things. He doesn't win, remember that. God knows of your passion and will see to it that your church grows. soldier on brother; solder on. You have not wasted your time, someone sometime will say in their heart, "Ah, at last I understand!" I will pray the Lord send you a harvest. You said it yourself we are in end times. I admire that you apologized, you are a pretty cool pastor.
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Pat
I think this has some merit, however, the first message I received from you this morning before I opened this Call to rewrite religion said - Minister Pat....in addition to continuing our domestic fight for marriage equality and our global fight against extremist violence,
I thought we were working to NOT FIGHT?
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Cynthia Thompson
I don't think that ancient, sacred texts should be edited. I saw a priest read a scripture that included men being in charge of their wives etc. He explained how the text had often been misused as an excuse for beating one's wife, then he explained what we should really be taking from it. I think that there should be a call for more priests and ministers to incorporate those ideas, pointing out how scriptures can be misused for evil, and showing people the real meaning. Or explain what was going on in the world when it was written and how it can be taken out of context. Priests could even be open to bringing in some things that are not in the bible but are in other ancient texts and explaining that there are relevant things that were left out that put women in a higher more sacred place in the church's history. All church officials should learn about the other ancient texts, other accounts of Adam and eve (how they tried to redeem themselves more than once etc), there should be emphasis on the fact that a pope deemed mary Magdalene a prostitute, not the bible, etc etc. There are many people who won't follow any Christian religion because they feel it sexist, if christians embraced (large scale) the idea that women are very important and not below men, the following would grow immensely. Anyway my main point is that leaders need to explain discrepancies, not rewrite ancient texts, you destroy a piece of history that way.
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Christel
Cynthia T. Very well said. I read somewhere in the old testament about women prophets, but I closed the book and fell asleep. It's in there! I just have to be a little more awake to find it, by the way... I don't remember a single sermon that preached out of that text about women's roles as prophets!! :) It was quite detailed. If anyone knows which book it's in please post it so we can read it "in context".
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Krvin DeFranco
Christel, and Cynthia, don't worry, God has not locked out His daughters. Debra was a great woman of the Bible. When the entire male population of generals were afraid, she led the army to victory! Helga was the head of the Theology college and all the "Big Bosses" went to her for advice. Ruth was another great one. .I can't remember off hand, but it was either Zachariah, or Philip who had four virgin daughters; all prophetesses. It is written, that in the millennium, God's sons, and DAUGHTERS will prophecy and teach. And those who try to twist the Word of God and use the verse about women not speaking in Church. Well, news flash; that was meant for men, women, and children when the Word of God is being taught. So feel free with God's endorsement. Women are not second class citizens, here or in heaven. Have a great day.
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Joe Stutler
Sure...and don't forget Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
and 1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
and Colossians 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
and 1 Timothy 2:11-15 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing.
and so on.
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Joe Stutler
What is truly sad is someone who professes to believe in the Bible yet rejects or runs from the bits that trouble him. Cherry-picking isn't really the way to positively affirm your faith. That you get rude when your fallicious ways are pointed out merely shows your inability to cogently and civilly discuss issues. Why are you even here, Kevin, if not to troll? You certainly don't magnify your god, nor make your particular seem at all attractive.
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Krvin DeFranco
I'm not here to impress a low life, negative, antagonistic, rabble rouser like your self. You offer nothing uplifting at all. There is nothing in the Bible that troubles me, its not mine to belittle, its mine to follow. Nothing you can do, or say will stop me from believing. My message is not meant for you. You are one of those mentioned in John 8 :40 Go ahead and make all the negative comments about the Bible you want. You are on your own.
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Joe Stutler
Not sure who you think you're impressing, but certainly it isn't me. While the Bible has its problems, seems you have far more. Seek help.
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Krvin DeFranco
Go pound sand creepy crawler.
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Joe Stutler
Says you. May you be blessed....lord knows you need it.
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Stephen J. Fuller
If you change His word, it no longer is His word...it is ours. Think about the logical falicy you are calling in. You want to fight against all the horrible offenses that man does to each other...and the you want to change(edit) God's word into man's. That's contradictory. That's a logical falicy. Sorry! Go after the heart, and you can change the world...that is the essence of the message of Christ.
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Brenda
Leave the BIble alone. It has been written. I believe our problems all stem from people getting away from the word
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Cynthia Thompson
Also about other non Christian religions, there are already many people who are part of those religions who disagree with the violence, many Muslims who adore Americans (talk to a few individually online, you'll be surprised), e.g. riots in Egypt who didn't want the Muslim Brotherhood in charge), these religious wars have gone on for thousands of years and the only way it stops is if people like the Egyptians continue to try to find a way to respect the religion but keep it out of government...there is nothing we can do but use military force when people commit genocide and other atrocities. If Abraham had only listened to God and not had that baby with his wife's servant, there wouldn't be two major religions at odds. Can't we find a way to be cousins? There were two women, but only one Abraham!!
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D.Marrillo
What does that mean " only one Abraham" is he more important than the two women?
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Krvin DeFranco
It was common practice for several thousand years that if a man's wife could not bare children his wife's hand servant could bear children for her husband. Goes back to the code of Hammurabi ,Assyrian marriage contracts, Nuzi texts. Once she got pregnant Hagar got very proud and began to despise Sarah. Sarah treated Hagar very badly and forced her to leave. She did however go back, had the son, Abraham named him Ishmael Eventually Hagar, and Ishmael were driven off. Trouble ever since. As far as Abraham,. His name means father of many nations. More important than the women, they all played a big part. Is it that important. It would have been kind of hard without him.
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rev fern
New and not sure how to post my idea but we as a church need to to give one day in pray n and fasting to get rid of Isis (I cell ) is this posiable to do every one on Same day pray Cus it shall work u guys game for peace
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Matthew Gianelloni
When I chose ordaination with the ULC, I vowed only to uphold two things: 1) Religious Freedom. 2) The Right Thing. Does anyone else here remember their vows? I am open to all of the discussion on the website here, but be advised: I do NOT adhere to the beliefs posted just because someone with a loud voice is screaming for what they want. You are free to scream all you want and I support that. But I will quietly disagree and do what is right.
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Joe Stutler
Rock on, Brother Matthew!
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Mankind Global Media (@mankindglobal)
"The Right Thing" is highly subjective.
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Matthew Gianelloni
EXACTLY my point. How is believing in the resurrection any more objective than believing that if I stick a pin in a grass doll it will cause my enemy pain? Faith is by definition subjective. If you can prove something, it becomes science. I believe both.
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Krvin DeFranco
Science has been proven wrong, time and again. Go ahead and prove Jesus wrong, knock yourself out.
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Matthew Gianelloni
Touche'. Awesome. Truthful. I like it. Science is easy to disprove. Faith can only be disagreed with.
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
Science as a whole has never been proven wrong, only some theories have been.
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Krvin DeFranco
Hey Crash, are you talking about the "theory of evolution", because I've never seen an ape in the transition stage to manhood. Unless you consider the existence of Joe Stutler to support it. Oh no ,poor Joe, he has no eyes. Oh no, poor Joe, he has no ears. Oh no, poor Joe, he has no relevance. Just a little humor here. winning friends and influencing people, that's my motto!
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
Faith offers nothing to prove or disprove, Matthew. That's the nature OF faith.
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
"Oh, no, poor Kevin...he has no brains, so he can only resort to personal attacks and logical fallacies."
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Krvin DeFranco
Logical fallacies? That's illogical!, come on Crash you can do better than that! Or was that your version of my stupid, feeble attempt at some banal below the belt uncalled for humor?
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
You called it, sir. I did not. :)
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Krvin DeFranco
everything is subjective. Whatever the data or situation a human being has to absorb it, process it and the decide to believe it or not believe it. Do you believe that?
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Matthew Gianelloni
OK. I'll answer it like this: My perception of gravity may be subjective. But the objective result of me jumping off of a building (with the wrong equipment) will be something I will have to subjectively evaluate at the bottom. So, sometimes, I observe the results of an objective reality from a skewed point of view. But my view doesn't stop gravity from existing.
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Krvin DeFranco
That's a very subjective answer. Thank you Matthew.
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Susan
Thank you, Matthew.
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Matthew Gianelloni
Susan, just to be clear, my comments support Christian beliefs as well as anyone elses. :)
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Susan
As do mine.
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Cynthia Thompson
I am a cultural anthropologist, so I have taken the time to speak to many people from many different cultures. So don't assume all Muslims hate us, it's a handful of radicals.
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JG
Agree with Mr. DeFranco. To attempt to change what one does not care for in a religious text smacks of moral relativism and the cancer of modern liberalism. Don't like the Bible...change it! Don't like something else...change it! No, ladies and gentlemen....that is not the answer, quite the opposite, in fact. The world is full of absolutes, they are there for a reason and they serve their purpose well. Instead of whining about wanting to change a text to suit one's own personality, one should really focus on seeing why one's behavior does not fall in line with that text...then you will answer your own question: the text isn't the problem, the behavior is.
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Angela
Amen
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Minister Greg Harden
Rev . Dr. JG I agree with "the text isn't the problem, the behavior is. This is supposed to be a discussion between ministers, men and women alike. I have read talk between certain ministers here that is more blatantly foul that should never have been uttered between such men. You know whom I am speaking of, I'm sure. What right have you to consider yourselves as religious men that you act in such a vulgar and demeaning manner ? You sound nothing like men Jesus Christ would want to go and preach "THE WAY" to inhabitants of the world. How dare you insult each other in such an unchristian like way in any venue or thought !! You should both apologize to each other and the rest of us for the way you have carried on in this discussion . I am new to this organization and this website , but I believe that others here should have stated their disgust in the way you are carrying on. Everyone is certainly entitled to their own beliefs and way of thinking, but they should still treat others with respect whether they agree with them or not. Do not re-write the Bible. People will think and interpret the way they want to. You should all read The Gospel of Mary Magdalene and you should try and find The Book Of Love, which was supposedly written by Jesus Christ himself in his own hand. Jesus and his Apostles, including Mary Magdalene travelled the country teaching what Jesus called "The Way". Treat all things with love and respect and understanding, especially each other and you will enter the kingdom of God. Thank you for letting me speak my peace!!
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Helen Perry
Everyone has done it. I wonder what the original content was?
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
Just like Shakespeare, the original Klingon.
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Krvin DeFranco
I acknowledge you admonishing me Crash that was my point, thanks for being a sport.
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Sandra Bailey
It seems to me the past is the past and it is important to live in the present. The written words of the past belong to those who lived in the past. To alter them or rewrite them seems to me to dismiss the past. I am a Historian by degree. As a Historian the words written in the past explain the actions taken to resolve the issues of the past. As a Spiritualist and Meta-physician it seems to me it is important to write new words for the present as our future selves and others will read and understand the actions we took to resolve the issues of the present. It is my understanding, there was a possibility life as we know it could have ended (Book of Revelations). However we were successful in raising the level of consciousness and by the end of August of 1999, we moved beyond this possibility. Yeah us! It seems to me that was the end of the new testament teachings. It is time to write the words of how we will live in this present. To me that begins with the acceptance the some of us have not moved to the present and remain in the past. Perhaps it is our responsibility to write the words to assist them in moving into the present. It is a huge task of transformation! To move forward requires us to let go of the past and that is very difficult for us in human form. So, I agree new words need to be written, words of acceptance!
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Debra Huddleston
I think that those of us who recognize that the scriptures have untruths in them don't need the scriptures revised and those who don't will not accept that fact just because they are revised.
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Krvin DeFranco
Really now. What exactly are these un truths in your opinion?
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Sharon
Ever since childhood I wondered about the translations from the original scripts. And how many chapters have been completely left out if they didn't fit into the transciber's thought and attitudes. The vengeful god and visions of burning in hell for all eternity fuels violence, in my opinion. Extremists are coming on full force much as they did during the Crusades, Inquititions, as a starting point. Love and do good must rise to avoid a calamity.
Sharon
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Susan
You are absolutely correct, Sharon. If one examines the origin of Christianity, it becomes apparent that the earliest Christians believed very different things--and followed a multitude of scriptures. Therefore, no church or belief system holds a patent on the Bible or its teachings. From studies of the Gnostic, or Nag Hamadi scrolls we realize that many books were left out of the New Testament because someone did not agree with their teachings. Since the Old Testament reaches back into pre-history, it is impossible to tell what the original looked like.
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Gwen
Anyone not representing love and light need a spiritual checkup. I still find my self perplexed by those that call out Islam when history shows there has been and continue to be extremist and fanatics in all faith traditions. Peace!!!
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Krvin DeFranco
History is the past documented. Right now we are dealing with Islam which claims to be a religion of peace but for thousands of years to present has left all those who did not submit to it; in pieces You don't see Buddhists,Christians hindus catholics protestants ,cutting off people's heads or burning them alive!. Yes, each of these has had freaks within their ranks as is evidenced today like Westboro, Satanists, but they are denounced by rational peace loving people. Islam on the other hand has not because we are all infidels in their eyes, so beware. Just remember God is the final word on all of this and their perceived success and victory will be short lived.
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Joe Stutler
History is written by the winners. Islam is only about 1400 years old, so your "thousands of years" just doesn't cut it. As for violence, yes, all those faiths you listed have done that and more to those they view as enemies of their faith. Christians have been practicing violence and oppression for some 2000 years, so they have quite the head start over Muslims. Again with the No True Scotsman fallacy, and I find Islamophobia rather disturbing and counter to the goals peace and love.
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Krvin DeFranco
What a beautiful statement, now go and reason with them. please.
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Brother John
Re: your Feb. 4 post Kevin… I've read most of your posts with amusement but this one clearly indicates you are not one of the "rational peace loving people" you mention. Your comments are ignorant, hateful and unchristian. You are correct that history is documented, including the Dark Ages, the Inquisition, the Crusades and more. There was plenty of burning, raping, pillaging and general mayhem perpetrated by Christians. In the 1930's Germany was almost entirely Christian, with no Muslims to speak of, meaning the Holocaust was carried out by Christians. Yes, they were also Nazis, but that just goes to show what fervent belief can cause. In our lifetime, Christian troops (the West) have used napalm, white phosphorus, Agent Orange and nuclear weapons to kill and destroy. If you're as Christian as you claim to be, what happened to the Golden Rule and love your enemies? You should be ashamed, my friend.
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Krvin DeFranco
The Dark Ages lasted what about 800 to thousand yrs. full of witch craft potions, spells, paganism, multiple gods. It was the rise of Christianity and enlightenment that pulled them out of the dark ages. The Inquisition, I'll give you that one, terrible, terrible but it didn't last did it sport. The Crusades if you don't forget was more defensive than offensive. Remember the Muslim hoard who conquered N. Africa, the Middle East and was trying to take over Europe. Germany may have been mostly Christian but the guy who had all the guns, tanks, artillery, and bullets hated Christianity with a passion that burned as hot as hating Jews. I personally don't care what kind of weapons were used to kill Imperial Japan, you left out the part about them slaughtering 11 million Chinese raping women and slicing their bellies open killing mother and child. Napalm, Agent Orange wasn't enough to stop Pol Pot from cutting off the heads of 40 thousand people and piling hem up in pyramids for all the world to see. Righteous men don't give ground to evil, they take it. I have no problem loving my enemies once they're straightened out and stop murdering others. I'm ashamed of nothing, you go and coddle, and reason with radical Islam, you go and try to get through to people like The Westboro Baptists. You love them, I rebuke them. I also rebuke you and your liberal, pacifist B.S.. If every one was like you we never would have defeated some of the animals you embrace. Be amused all you want. God will not be mocked.
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Brother John
Kevin, you must be a follower of the other Jesus, the Prince of War and Hatred, who wants you to judge others, preach hatred, and defy his advice by "rebuking" rather than loving your enemies. My mistake. Slithering past the fact that it was Christian Germans who perpetrated the Holocaust doesn't change the facts and blaming mass slaughter on any one man doesn't cut it. "I was only following orders" is no defence for genocide. It's the mass of believers who do the slaughtering in all the cases you mentioned, not an individual. FYI, here's a quote from der Fuhrer… "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." You may say he wasn't a Christian, but you don't sound like one either.
Have you participated in a war yourself, or are you just another arm chair chicken hawk? If not, why haven't you enlisted so you can "straighten out" your enemies instead of spending time here regaling us with your beliefs and extensive knowledge?
I can only assume your medication needs adjustment when you come out of nowhere with the suggestion that I am coddling radical Islam and the Westboro Baptists and embracing "the animals". I am a pacifist and if "all people" were like me, we'd have peace in the world. Sadly, there are many people like yourself who think pacifism is B.S. I hope that someday you'll replace the hatred in your heart with the love that your Saviour preached.
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Krvin DeFranco
Hitler hated Christians Catholics and everything that wasn't Aryan. He Worshipped Aryan Gods you hair lip. Get your head out of your ass. GO pacify Isis and take that other ass hole with you. If all were like you they would lay down in the streets and be slaughtered and let their families be slaughtered along with them. You can go to hell now or wait till they send you there. No difference to me at all. You hapless goof, keep your brainless opinions to your self. My Saviour wasn't a pussy. He drove evil out of the temple with a whip. He also looked evil straight in the eye, took its best shot. Died , resurrected and will return to vanquish evil not to pacify it. What you need is a good left hook to the jaw, then maybe you'll wake up to the reality of what's out there And yes, you are absolute 100% pure bull shit..
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Brother John
Dear Kevin,
RE: Your Feb. 21 comment
1. It's "hare lip" and some people are born with this disfigurement. Using it as an insult is very childish and cruel.
2 I'm sure your Saviour is pleased to know you don't consider him a "pussy", but may find your judgemental language un-Christian. I do.
3 I'm not concerned about your left hook, your rebukes or your threats of damnation.
4 The non-violent teachings and actions of loving, intelligent men like Gandhi and Rev. King were more effective, powerful and productive than hatred and violence. Do you not admire their contributions to humanity? Where were their heads, in your opinion?
5 Promoting war and violence as solutions for the world's problems by fomenting hatred and prejudice is what keeps the business of war rolling and profitable. The loudest proponents of war are often the people who choose not to put their lives on line, but encourage others to do it for them. Some call these people hypocrites.
As suggested by myself and others, there are many forums that would be better suited to your beliefs and language, which you've made disturbingly clear. "We are all children of the same universe" is the credo we're trying to follow here.
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Krvin DeFranco
Both Ghandi and Dr. King were assassinated by people who were either being pacified or were agents of those people who were on the opposite end of their value systems. If their cohorts were more attentive they may have been spared and achieved even greater things. So much for the awareness of pacifists, and believing in the "goodness" of evil men. You can pick up a rattlesnake and reason with it and accommodate . I will never pacify evil of any kind. it but in the end it will bite you. It hasn't read the Bible. #1 it was meant to be an insult. #2 don't confuse righteous indignation with judgement. #3I wouldn't waste my time on you and its evident that a punch on the jaw wouldn't wake you up. #4 I admire them but loathe your indifference to take action. #5 I am not proactive on war, but will not hesitate to destroy that which is destroying my fellow man. As I may suggest to you, go pound sand. I'm not leaving the safety of my family or friends in the limp wrists of a pacifist. I have the same right to be here just as you and your limp noodle buddies do.
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Cynthia Thompson
Very true!
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Kev O'Kane
I agree with your premise. I am a Christian but not religious.
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Cheryl A Chapman
I agree. There are fanatics in every religion. I don't believe God wants us to be in constant fear as Christians. Satan tests us over and over, and it's our choice to decide which path to follow, and yes, there are consequences. God is a loving God. He wants the best for us. He wants peace, and for people in this world to get along. He created us, and loves us unconditionally, until the end of time.
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Lorenzy Smith Jr.
I am praying with you as we try to make a difference in this great nation of ours, with prayer all things can be done so I will be putting out my best in this nation to help change it's wicked ways" I am so happy to be a part of your ministry and my prayer will continue until the day I die. I am so grateful to be able to now do the things that has always been in my heart Helping, Loving, Leading people to a better way of life.
Lorenzy Smith Jr.
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Don Iarussi MFA
rewrite text? no!
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Josh Cross
I can fully understand what you are saying here but I strongly disagree with a revision of ancient text. Past present and future revisions are wrong and alter the historical anomalies noted in them. I think we need to teach people not to take such ancient texts so seriously and look at the stories as just that, stories to inflict morals but at the same time use modern day knowledge and overall common sense to know we shouldn't be killing each other for 99 virgins in heaven. Just my opinion I suppose. I've always liked the acronym BIBLE. basic instructions before leaving earth. It fits all scripture out there and also puts off the idea that is not to be taken to strongly.
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Howard
but the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness. Galatians 5; 22
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Krvin DeFranco
So perfect!
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Joe Stutler
Don't forget Deuteronomy 17:12, Exodus 22:17, Leviticus 20:13, Leviticus 20:27, Exodus 21:15, Leviticus 20:9, Leviticus 20:10, Exodus 22:19, 2 Chronicles 15:12-13, Deuteronomy 13:13-19, Deuteronomy 22:20-21, Numbers 1:48-51 , Exodus 31:12-15, 2 Kings 2:23-24, 2 Samuel 6:3-7, Hosea 9:11-16, Ezekiel 9:5-7, Isaiah 13:15-18, 1 Samuel 15:2-3, Jeremiah 48:10, Exodus 23:23, Joshua 8:1-29, Judges 20:48, Numbers 25:1-9, etc. Yep, very peaceful, loving, joyful, kind, and good...so 'perfect'.
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Krvin DeFranco
Duet: 23,16,17 suits you.
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Dan
I am sorry, but not only will this idea not fly, it is completely unconstitutional and will not survive a legal challenge. No one has the right to tell another person what to believe and no one has the right to tell another person that they have to follow a specific action or they will not be allowed to incorporate. I dont know who came up with this idiotic idea but whoever it was needs to go sit in the corner with a dunce hat on and be kept away from the sites computers and sharp objects.
And by what right do YOU get to decide that the scriptures need to be revised? Who appointed you God? Or who appointed you God's spokesman? You have NO right to tell Muslums that they have to rewrite the Koran, or Christians that they have to rewrite the Bible-or Jews that they have to rewrite the Torah just because you think they should. That makes you no better then Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot because you are trying to tell people what they can and cannot believe in. For a supposedly free thinking site, you have failed miserably with this idiotic idea.
And lastly Susan Colmenares, you really need to get your facts corrected. There is NO medical or genetic proof that anyone was born Gay or that there is some mythical gay gene. We have mapped the Human genome. We have mapped the DNA strand. We reprogram cells to do different things. We have cloned animals and somewhere in the world (if not today then very soon, if it hasnt already happened) we will be able to clone humans. We can grow body parts on animals and at Ohio State University, they have figured out how to print body parts with a computer printer. Yes you read right, skin muscle tissue and so on with a computer printer. And as soon as they figure out how to do capillaries, they will be able to print out organs and eyes and so on so no one dies from not having a replacement organ. And they do it with the patients tissue so it will not be rejected by the patients body. If we can do all of this, dont you think for one second that if there was a "gay gene" that we would not be able to identify same and show conclusively that it really exists? Or that the homosexual community would not be shouting this from the rooftops? You can believe whatever allows you to sleep at night, but the realistic and rational people know that you have to have proof, and you dont have any at all.
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
Just because the proof has not yet been found, does not mean the proof is not out there waiting to be found. The mapping of the human genome is not the end all and be all of genetics, it is the beginning of our understanding of the subject. There may be more than one gene, or combination of genes, that contributes to this trait. The evidence, while not conclusive, is mounting.
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Dan
You can claim evidence is mounting all you want. But until there is proof positive, it is a choice. But hey if it helps you sleep at night to believe a myth; feel free.
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
You truly believe someone would choose to be LGBT willingly? What would be the point? Please explain, sir.
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Dan
Its easy. You can continue to make that idiotic claim and be shown that you are wrong (meridith Baxter Burney who suddenly found she was gay at 52-Elton John who suddenly found he was gay-Matt Bomer (the white collar guy) suddenly decided he was gay at 18-Jason Collins (NBA) who decided he was gay at 25-Raven Symone (cosbys little grand daughter on his show and Disney star suddenly decided she was gay at 22-Amber Heard model-Zachary Quinto the new Capt Kirk decided he was gay at 23...you want me to go on?
Until you can show that its genetic then its a lifestyle. Now you will have a lot of people trying to claim he didnt say this, but the fact remains Dr. Francis S. Collins, head of the Human Genome Project, along with his team of over 150 of the top geneticists in the world, who sequenced and decoded the human genome, three years ahead of schedule, have emphatically said, ad nauseam, that there is NO gay gene. The American College of Pediatrics also maintains this position. Now since they are learned experts and the worlds best in Genetics, I would guess they know more then you do. But if you can only sleep at night with your beliefs that everyone of the experts are wrong and only you are right, then have fun.
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
Dan, please provide citations of your claims.
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
These people didn't "suddenly find out" anything--they willingly chose to "come out" to the world, despite the risks. BTW, Zachary is Spock, not Kirk...if you're gonna post something, get it right, please. TYVM.
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Krvin DeFranco
Hi Crash, Dan has a valid point. If you are born gay or homosexual as I call it, you would know it right away at least at or before the onset of puberty. If its natural, genetically linked ,it is evident from the start. I believe that people are lured, persuaded, or enticed into that lifestyle. My opinion and relative to me, of course. Until God sends me a telegram announcing that His previous declaration about homosexuality is invalid; I'm going with God. Coming to realize you are homosexual at 25, 18, 53 come on. That's like eating Ben& Jerry's and developing a gene for Jewish, or eating bad chili and a gene for shingles pops up. And someone choosing to "be". homosexual willingly? Doesn't sound all that natural to me...ya think.
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
Not necessarily, Kevin. These feelings sometimes express themselves prior to puberty, and sometimes manifest during puberty. Not enough is known to categorically state when or how it happens. And, like Dan, you miss the point about when they announced they were LGBT...this wasn't something that just came to them like a bolt from the blue. They've known about it a long time. They just picked that moment to "come out" to the world.
As for the whole "lifestyle" argument...I think the abject failure of so-called "conversion therapies" and their general discrediting puts paid to that notion. No one can entice a gay to be straight, or vice versa. It's not in the wiring.
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
Also, Dan has yet to provide citations for his claims. Until and unless he can do that, he has made no point at all.
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Ron Austin
Thank you! You said what I said but you said it so much more politely. However, I used a lot fewer words, describing the author a "left wing Marxist pinhead moron." You get credit for courtesy, I get credit for brevity.
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Daniel
naturallygay.com Why judge? It is up to that persons freewill to be how they are! Unless they are being punished by God for the sins of their Fathers sins, then it is not the choice of the person . Whether you call it Freewill choice or Genetics made me this way, God will be the one that passes Judgment if need be and man should mind it's own business on this same sex thing or LGBT outcry.
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Dan
Yea, its exactly what I thought. You say one thing against the standard line and you are "awaiting moderation" yet when you go with the sites line, then you get posted very fast.
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Barry
Various religious groups will be at War forever.My God is better than Your God will be the firestarter.
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Krvin DeFranco
religious "groups" have bastardized the word of God to where its no longer the Word of God. Jesus was only pleased with two churches out of seven; they both taught the same thing. These groups are in for a rude awakening.
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Troy
Even if you wanted to how could you changing millions of Bibles? How does one go about rewriting scriptures and changing the Bible as we know it today?
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Minister Clarice Marlene Moore-Grantt, PhD., D.M., M.S., M.S.
This information is very enlightening and yet somewhat disturbing. However, I have a direct line through Jordan with a social media friend who send me ongoing commentary of updated propaganda regarding ISIS, etc. The idea that those who accept the early religious scriptures as a means to justify how they treat todays Christians or those with adverse sexual orientations, need to be re-educated or updated on such. I am not one to entertain any idea of re-wording original bible tenets because of the destructive ramifications this would present. But I believe that todays theologians can help to bring about a conclusion to this through research and a culmination of some revised thoughts on this matter.
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CRAIG
The bible, Quran, and the Torah were all written to instruct people on how to lead their daily lives with a morality behind it. Really, they represent the first attempts to govern people (in a positive way) to respect their peers and live together harmoniously and in balance with each other and the world.
The confusion has come in to play because the world has changed, grown smaller and our ideas about life have expanded and grown. People still cling to the outdated ideas of those manuscripts. As with all things, every thing changes: people, environments, ideas. Not that the lessons given in those texts aren't worthwhile or relevant--quite the contrary. However, the doctrines in those texts were operating from a framework that had no clue or insight as to how much the world would change in two thousand plus years.
I'm all for updating religious texts to meet the needs of the 21st century. You can maintain the teachings and the lessons therein, but change the information to become relevant in this society.
Ignorance is the biggest recruiter for all of these fanatical and fringe extremists. With education comes enlightenment as well as respect for your peers--learning allows the individual to see the world outside of their own views and creates the ability for people to live alongside their peers without violence despite ideological differences.
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Jack
I am 100% in agreement in re-writing the Bible to read like we teach and have been taught. Love! Get rid of the superstitions, cultural and personal beliefs of those who wrote their letters that could not possibly represent a Loving God. I would buy that Bible in a second and make it my number one study Bible. We have put up far to long with a bible that presents murder, killing of children/babies, and sexism. It is just not what God's message is and that is Love, Forgiveness and Grace.
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Krvin DeFranco
Go right ahead. Just remember, when you die you won't dictate to God; He will be your judge The Bible presents how the world came to be, what is expected of us, and how mankind has acted and reacted to how God wants us to be. Its not His fault that man screwed up. He does not sanction the evil told of in the Bible, men have done that. It doesn't say murderers, rapists, and such go to heaven, quite the contrary. I question what Bible your reading, or maybe its your perception, I don't know. Any war or destruction sanctioned was to destroy evil, not good.
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Debra Huddleston
Kevin DeFranco, with respect for your opinion, but that is only your opinion. You can tell by reading the blog that we do not all believe this way.
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Brother John
Funny statement about God's judgement from someone who is so very judgmental himself, Kevin. You believe your perfect God created Man so it appears he's the one who screwed up. You are out of sync with virtually all devout Christians I've spoken with who believe that all sins are forgiven by accepting Christ as your personal saviour, including murderers, rapists, etc. Are they all wrong?
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Krvin DeFranco
God did not screw up, man did. I will always believe God is perfect, you arrogant jerk I have never stated that God messed up. I have stated however, that the blood of Christ washes away all sin, but God judges that. There is only one unpardonable sin. That is to deny the Holy Spirit to talk through you when summoned before Satan. I don't know what kind of Christians would be in sync with believing God screwed up. I think you've been smoking too much crac,
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Dan
Yep, just as I thought. I posted why nothing like this could be done and it was removed. Typical freethinking site. You can only agree with them, you disagree and you are shut down.
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Brian
If a religious scripture is the word of a god then the idea of rewriting it for the sake of a nicer interpretation is anathema to the religion. It is one thing to interpret metaphor and to take into account the language of the time that it is written. But how can something that is clear and unequivocal in the text be changed because it doesn't fit in with how we would like the religious doctrine to be? One must either reject the scripture as false or stand up against it.
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Brother John
Maybe it's because slavery, killing adulterers and disobedient children and the rest are both barbaric and illegal in our society, as they should be. I, for one, these are positive changes. It's ironic to hear "believers" ramble on about how immoral our society has become while quoting a book from the Dark Ages and before. FYI, the Bible isn't the "word of God". It was all written by men, many of whom had some dark and disturbing dreams and visions that somehow made it to print. It was also edited numerous times by equally disturbed men over the centuries with their own agendas.
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Krvin DeFranco
You are out there. You need to go to anger management, but before you do, remove your head from where you stashed it. Then wipe that brown ring from around your neck. Apparently you never heard of the Apostles. People who actually lived with Jesus. People who actually learned from Jesus. People who actually wrote down what He did and said. You've never heard of Eusebius a famous Greek scholar who penned about the Life of Christ. Slavery, lest you forget was denounced by Christian pastors and led the Abolitionist movement. The only disturbed man that's writing now is you my friend. You better hope you are right about the Bible or you are SOL.
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Joe Stutler
Ah, more revisionist history. Why am I not surprised.
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Kelsey Davis
I started a Facebook group called" jesus said WHAT ???" the purpose of which is to write about what Jesus act Italy said. As u know. He commanded us to love one another. That's my ministry under your ordination& I don't allow attack postings. Hope u approve.
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Virginia Feldman
Writing out all the bigoted and hateful verbiage in everyone's holy books, and not incentivizing religions who preach hate, are 2 fine ideals. But..... WHO is to decide what is hate? Or who is bigoted? US!! And that's the problem: no body believes about themselves, or about their beliefs, that: 'I AM HATEFUL'--- or 'I AM BIGOTED'. It's always somebody else that has the 'bad' beliefs. I love the Universal Life Ministry approach, but you can be sure that if the Tax Code writer were from a Westboro-like church, they' eliminate your tax exemption, and rewrite everything you put out!!
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Brother John
Amen Ginny!! I'm OK with Jesus being the Prince of Peace. The rest is garbage written by power hungry psychopaths (not God) that should have been thrown out long ago. Amusingly, the most vocal proponents of the entire Bible don't follow most of it's "laws" just like the rest of civil society. Just a lot of foul smelling hot air.
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Omega LaFleur
We are not not talking about a school text book here. The idea is rediculois! Have you actually read the Bible? There is a warning at the end! Pretty sure it does not say well if you really want to. NO!
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R.D Pickett
We cannot, and must not re-write the Bible. That is an Historical text of Christianity as well as Judaism. What we may do is write new texts that are more relevant to our times. They would not be gospels but more of a living record of those things that have been done that go against the teachings of Christ in the New Testament. But who would write such a text?
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CRAIG
In thinking, I do not believe that the ULC is talking about rewriting the Bible and then discarding the old. I am not for that either. The Bible is a historical text of Christianity/Judaism, as you said and needs to be preserved.
I assume that what is being talked about is taking the fundamentals of the Bible: the moralities and the teachings and inscribing a new document that fits our 21st century world. That I would be in favor of.
But as you said, who would write it? Who's qualified? On the other hand, who was qualified to write the first? I've read many accounts now how the Bible was written, but there was definitely a group or someone deciding what actually would go into the Bible and what would be discarded or kept out. That was done by whatever powers were in charge at the time, and rest assured they were shaped by their own human beliefs and perspectives about what was "appropriate" and what was not. Decisions were made by humans with their own biases of the times.
I'd expect no difference here--a group would come together to update the teachings and lessons, but there would still be biases involved. However, those involved would hopefully be open minded, and building a text that encompasses the needs of everyone, not the perceived needs dictated by power or manipulation. That would be my caveat.
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Brother John
The Bible should be kept in it's current form, particularly the OT, to remind us of how far our intelligence and requirement for proof, as opposed to blind belief, have taken us. Sadly, not near as far we could be, but beyond slavery and stoning adulterers. There have been thousands of books written as guideposts for a fulfilled, meaningful and moral life that are far more clear and concise than the Bible and other ancient texts from long gone societies.
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Lea Weisenbach
Yes..it's been to long ..This change of thinking is greatly needed because you are what you think. Namaste
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Krvin DeFranco
Ah... but to get back to God you must be what He wants you to be.
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Brother John
Ahhh, you again Kevin. Why "get back" to a vengeful, jealous, mean spirited God that men who owned slaves and thought the world was flat had dreams about? Don't you think there have been any contemporary "prophets" who have been inspired by "God", or did man's connection to God end thousands of years ago? Surely you must believe you're inspired by God, aren't you? I'm curious why you don't spend your time on one of the many Christian ministry sites instead of an open minded forum like this one. If you're here to convert "non-believers" you're failing miserably and simply re-enforcing that fundamentalist Christians are deluded, narrow-minded bigots.
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Krvin DeFranco
You are right out of the Louis Farrakhan play book. Open minded Forum! So far all you have done is denigrated any one who believes in the Bible. Condemned them, and referred to them as slave owners. You are the one whose a racist and a bigot. If you read history, there were millions of slaves, well before the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. You are so blinded by your hatred of the white European men who you say worshipped a vengeful, mean spirited, jealous God, that you have no objectivity. I'm not here to convert any one., I could care less where you end up, or how you end up. I'm here just like every one else stating my opinion. You need to get out of the Dark Ages yourself, and lose that ghetto mentality. we'll all find out who is deluded in the end But until that time if you continue to try and lure me away , you can go pound sand....my friend.. This blog is meant for everyone, even Christians.
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Joe Stutler
Awwww....I didn't get Farrakhan'd. Now I'm jealous. Who do I complain to?
Wait a sec...."...there were millions of slaves, well before the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." So, is that an admission that your god showed up late to the party, not really the creator of all that is? Now I'm confused, Kevin.
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Krvin DeFranco
You are in a class all by your self stutler. maybe Anton LeVay suits you.
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Joe Stutler
LeVay is a far better Christian than you, Kevin.
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Kevin DeFranco
You are not confused,, you are just a malcontent , you'll be in heaven 5 minutes and be pissed off at God. If you read Genesis, go to the sixth day of creation. what does it say. Now go to the next step after His seventh day of rest. The Ha 'Adam created on the eighth day is where Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob came from. As a day with Lord is as a 1000 yrs. to man that puts at least 2000 yrs. between the sixth day creation man and Adam and Eve of Eden fame. Unless of course you believe that all existing DNA came from 2 ruddy faced people. Keep trying.
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Joe Stutler
Doesn't your cult have its own blog space for you to troll, Kevin?
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Joe Stutler
Or, more accurately, what Kevin DeFranco claims his god wants you to be...in reality what Kevin DeFranco wants you to be.
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Krvin DeFranco
He needs to repent his blasphemy, but that's all on him, I don't care anymore. He disenfranchised a lot of people with his very first posting and brought it all on himself. He doesn't need my forgiveness, I didn't write the Bible. He needs Gods forgiveness.
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
How, exactly, did he "disenfranchise" anyone? Did his post deprive someone of a right or privilege? Did he prevent someone from voting? Did he deprive someone of power in some way?
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
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Krvin DeFranco
Well Crash, He deliberately tried to separate all Christians that aren't in tune to his b.s. from the right to express that freely. He was sadly amused at any one's effort to display their opinions, and proclaimed them as the one and only God experts. However, in his attempt to do this he unknowingly unseated himself from the throne of know it all to just another rabble rouser, and exposed himself as a hater of scripture marginalizing the Bible with factual inaccuracies, and basically just being a dick. So, I'll hold on to my opinion of him and you can keep yours. We both have that right. You can talk news, weather, and sports, but when you question a man's or woman's theology sometimes sparks will fly. That's just the nature of the beast.
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Brother John
Although I have replied to a few of your earlier ignorant comments Kevin, I'll be skipping right past them in the future, so as not to soil my mind and waste my time. You are the epitome of what drives people away from Christianity and "the Bible". Your God will not be pleased with your rude, infantile judgements and you, not the people you've been disparaging, will be in deep doo-doo. (that is if your God actually exists) Hope you find another venue for your vitriol soon so that we can enjoy having rational, mature and intelligent conversations here without the clutter of your grade school blather.
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Joe Stutler
You're better off without Kevin's disturbing and hostile hooey. I know I am ;-)
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J. Paul Lanier
I believe the Old Testament should be left intact, just as it is now. There is now a Christian fundamentalist argument that the Quran promotes violence, therefore Islam is a violent religion, and all actions of Islamic terrorists represent Islam. One response to this is to note the Old Testament also promotes violence, but these violent actions do not represent Judaism or Christianity. So leaving the violent parts of the Old Testament intact provides an argument that violent actions do not represent Islam.
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rev g anthony
i take issue with your comment: " Satanists planning to put up public statues designed to offend others in response to their personal offense to the 10 Commandments in public places." satanists are exercising the same right to public display that has been illegally granted to favour judeo/christian religions. why not say that christians have erected monuments, on public property, designed to offend a secular nation?
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Berny Conley
WE ARE FOR SURE HAVE GONE TO FAR WITH TALKING, AGREEMENTS BETWEEN COUNTRIES. I AM SURE GOD WOULD AGREE TO STOP THIS CONFLICT. AS MINISTERS, ALL WE CAN DO IS PRAY, HOLD SPECIAL MASSES, IN ASKING GODS HELP TO GIVE OUR GOVERNMENT PEOPLE TO ACT IN THE WAY OUR LORD WOULD IF HE WAS PRESENT. IT IS STATED IN THE BIBLE ALL WE NEED TO DO IS ASK FOR HIS HELP & IT WOULD BE DONE. SO I PLEAD WITH ALL U.L.C. MINISTERS GET OUT THERE SPREAD THE WORD TO PRAY FOR GOD ASSISTANCE.
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John Wakkes
We could just sit around and pray for someone else to act OR we could stand up like adults and take action.
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
In reality, we need a little of both prayer/meditation and action, so that one may inspire the other.
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Brother John
A big AMEN to you John. So much preaching and so few actions.
"He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it."
Martin Luther King, Jr.
What happened to all of our "Peace Churches"?
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Krvin DeFranco
They are being slaughtered as we speak, beheaded ,buried alive, and burned to death, while some pacify a defective faction of a religion, or don't have the balls to denounce it. I have never run away from a fight against evil, or have been afraid to speak out against it. Evil knows one thing Peace by attrition.
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
Berny, please learn to type in something other than ALL CAPS. You're shouting. TYVM.
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William Arnott Roy
The Bible is a composite of various texts that have been revised, reshuffled, omitted or included over the centuries by committees. It can hardly be seriously considered the"Word Of God." Of course it should be reevaluated and revised in order remain relevant to the real world.
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Krvin DeFranco
The Bible is the letter our Father wrote to us. To read, absorb, implement and prove that in the next world we are relevant to Him.
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Krvin DeFranco
You are correct. Do some research and find out who, and what those violent acts represent and who they were aimed at.
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John Owens
I believe any attempt to REWRITE the Holy Scriptures HAS to be inspired by Satan. Translating is one thing, REWRITING is another thing entirely. If people want to worship another god, by all means, I think that is their privilege, but they should be honest and sincere about it. The Eternal God of the Bible told His people not to add to His Commandments or to take away from them. In Revelation is says not to add to the Book or take from it. People who do so risk whatever damnation in which they hold belief.
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John Wakkes
Then why would it be ok for the church to remove the books Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, and I & II Maccabees which were simply declared "not sacred but good for reading"?
The bible has been added to and removed from for thousands of years!
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John Owens
The Apocrypha to which you refer is useful for historical reasons, and it is available to be read, studied and taught. That is NOT an excuse to rewrite it to suit our own society. If we need ANOTHER one, we should just write another one, like Mohammed did, like Joseph Smith did. That does not give it Divine Authority. You can dispute the Divine Authority if you like. You can invent your own if you like, but be sincere, and don't claim divine authority for anything that suits your lifestyle.
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John Wakkes
Who made the decision to just consider it as useful for historical reasons? Men, the bible society at large.
There is no real reason why the Gospel of Thomas was left out and the rest stayed. The bible was accumulated by men in religious society. If their decisions are divine authority so is everyone else's.
Simply put the current bible fit society's lifestyle at one point in history many many years ago.
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Krvin DeFranco
You are a Wakkes job.
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
Very mature, Kevin. VERY mature.
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Angela
100% agree!
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Krvin DeFranco
Stop taking things so darn seriously all the time. You know sometimes its o.k. to make lite of things and add humor. I'm sure that John's ego, and self image were not diminished one bit; otherwise, he would hunt me down and slay me like a Philistine.
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Mark Carter
Watering down religious books is not the answer. If there are problem areas in the text, we should learn from them rather than ignoring or hiding them.
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nancy
I wonder if we could go back to original writings-not translations-what we would find-would it be different from what councils have decided - would it be more relevant-or would it just be someones diary with idle thoughs? What about books that never made the cut-how would they read?
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Mankind Global Media (@mankindglobal)
What do I think (as was asked in the email?) I think it's slightly humorous to call for "re-writing" ancient religious texts on the same page you're selling the King James Bible for $30 ;-)
Also, check your facts: The Douay-Rheims Bible, not the KJV, was the 1st English translation.
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Mark Carter
(y) :)
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Christopher
If this church tries to conform to the world and not stick with the scripture surely you are going down a dangerous and unholy path. If things keep going the way they are i will be forced to remove myself from this organization due to not going to follow false truths. For one anyone to sees that God doesn't condone homosexuality is living a false sense of truth cause it is considered a sin. I will stick with what i believe and know add truth according to scripture cause it was interpreted in the king James version most accurately.
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Lewis
After reading this article, I could only shake my head.
The whole message presented in this article contradicts itself.
It says, "No longer can we stand by and witness violence, shackled by a misguided, politically-correct notion of freedom" but the very thing it is calling for is censorship of the Holy texts, to remove all the stuff that is deemed offensive or violent- to make it politically correct. You cannot promote freedom by calling for censorship.
If the ULC Monastery wants to rewrite all the holy texts based on what the person in charge deems appropriate, go ahead and try.
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
'What’s interesting to observe is how readily members of one religion dismiss the beliefs of other faiths. We don’t know how many times we’ve heard Christians call for an American ban of Sharia Law, only to turn around and attempt to create a Christian theocracy! Or Satanists planning to put up public statues designed to offend others in response to their personal offense to the 10 Commandments in public places. Oh, the irony.'
Okay, let's make sure we understand each other.
Satanists, Pastafarians, Buddhists, Muslims, the Freedom From Religion Foundation, and other religious and secular groups are not protesting placement of 10 Commandments, Nativity displays, and other overtly Christian displays on public property out of some sense of "personal offense." They are protesting this because it is a clear violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, and an implied if not overt endorsement of Christianity as the official religion of the United States. An organization that espouses "religious freedom" as one of its core values should know better, and I am frankly rethinking my decision to seek ordainment through this denomination for this reason. Hypocrisy, it seems, knows no bounds.
Oh, the irony, indeed.
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
To be completely clear:
No one is dismissing or disrespecting your beliefs by insisting that either ALL religions, faiths, beliefs, etc.be represented by public displays on public property, or that NONE are. We'd much prefer the latter, but if one group insists it has the right to put up such a display, then the floodgates are open for all, and the public square will become a very crowded place indeed.
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Krvin DeFranco
Pastafarians....is that like the god of macaroni or something?
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
Not too far off the mark. The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
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Krvin DeFranco
Is that in Colorado? I think I saw it on Watter's World.
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Dan
He is atheist. Which is sort of strange that he would be here in a religious based site.
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Matthew Gianelloni
Wolves and Sheep, Baby!!!
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
It actually originated in Kansas, but has adherents worldwide, including a number of ULC Ministers.
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
Dan, I would classify myself, if forced to, as a Foundational Agnostic with some atheist leanings. The ULC embraces a number of beliefs, traditions, and philosophies, including Humanism, Pastafarianism, agnosticism, and yes, even atheism, some I am quite at home here, TYVM.
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
Which would you classify me as, Matthew?
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
Kevin, here's the segment you're thinking of...
http://nation.foxnews.com/jesse-watters/2012/03/30/watters-penetrates-atheist-rally-are-you-afraid-youre-going-hell
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Matthew Gianelloni
Well, Crash, I don't know you, but I do know some "Christian" wolves and some "Atheist" sheep. This world is pretty mixed up, IMHO, which is why I am HERE instead of a local church. I have been through a LOT of them. Here's one of my favorite prayers: "Lord, have mercy on me and protect me from your followers." I am a monotheist. I believe in sin, because I do it. I don't think I can save myself. I get more confused about the whole thing as I get older. I get a lot of comfort from the bible because most of the characters are like me. Jesus SEEMS like a good answer to the whole problem I face as a human, but if he isn't it, I am sure there is a better solution that I am not aware of yet. IF I am wrong, death will be the sweetest sleep I have ever known, because this world is a constant disappointment to me.
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Krvin DeFranco
Nice to see people with a sense of humor and not all confrontational!
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
I don't believe in being confrontational unless it's absolutely necessary to be so. You can win more arguments with humor than you can with anger.
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Lisa Simoneau-Buccieri
I believe righting( rewriting) a Religious text that remove hate and a War in Gods name along the lines of the bible, but not the bible would be just. Writing Religious text that helps unite and bring people together of vast religions that incorporates the beliefs of the many. To help bring people back to God and back to a moral value that that has been missing from the beginning of time.
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William A. Sargent, Rev.
personally I think that you all need to go back and read the last lines in the bible. Not A WORD IS TO BE CHANGED. it wasn't written for racial ideology or for the peace keepers,, it was inspired of GOD and put down by man that Man MAY learn from GOD'S teachings. Be it war or peace. Sometimes man can only learn through violence. look at us during the late fifties and sixties, and even today. LEAVE GOD'S WORD ALONE. Read the church fathers they were close to the original teachings, learn from these and re-write Grims fairy tales.
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Matthew Gianelloni
Hey, Crash...Is your handle/nickname by any chance related to a Combat Mission Simulator of the AH type?
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
No, more to do with the movie "Hackers".
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KEITH MARTIN
religion and bibles are open to updating. many were mistanslated and copied by uneducated scribes. rather then spend time with waring. the true word of god needs to be found and clairified. as many have added to or omited for their own ends. less seriving individual religious leaders and more god's true words. science and religion are interwoven until we can say we now see all of god's wonders in the universe. no one can claim they know the true way to live. other then respect anothers right to believe or not individualy. forcing your beliefs on others is againt god's relationship with each individual. only he has the final say, not you or i. all the effort put into war and killing. would be better spent in solving problems like hunger,illness, and homelessness,
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Stephen J. Fuller
John Owens, you hit the nail on the head Brother! This discussion is what you get when you ordain people who do not go through and training or vetting process. You end up with theological speculation over objective certainty
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Ron Austin
Please explain yourself. Who should be vetted out of the process and not ordained. Most important, what is meant by "theological speculation over objective certainty." God, I hope you do not mean what I think you mean. Here is hoping you will explain your meaning.
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Ron Austin
I sat for a while telling myself I should be civil in my reply. Sorry! I have to be honest and say it the way I think it.
Anyone who would take the words and thoughts of the great minds that have given us the foundation on which our civilization is based, and revise it to fit modern political correctness is a left wing Marxist pinhead moron. I am highly insulted and suggest you should be also.
The basis of being a left wing pinhead is the idea that they are smarter than we little people and they are obligated to control our thoughts and behavior. They know that left to our own devises we will often come to the wrong conclusions.
Let us consider the thoughts of all minds who express themselves. Let us pay special attention to those who criticize us or with whom we are preset to disagree.
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Krvin DeFranco
Thank you very much.
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jean
Leave religious texts, such as the Bible, alone. There are deep meanings in these texts. All printed information is up for interpretation no matter what you do about it. You cannot keep people from putting their own interpretation on it (whatever serves their purpose). This has always happened and it always will.
Jean Walters, St.Louis,.Mo.
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tom b
wow, i am new here so i will be brief, this is how i see things today the bible is a collection of personal spiritual experiences don 't re wright it continue it with our own, and allow the other books like (Enoch)
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D13
Hmmmmm, all interesting conversations for sure. Grace and Peace to all.
Rewriting Biblical Scripture, taking the violence out of the OT, this will not in anyway remove violence from our fallen world. It would be pretty awesome if it did, magical even. My opinion , and this is just my opinion in which this page is for, this is not to brow beat anyone of their beliefs am I correct? The OT is wonderfully written, full of imagery and poetry, mercy and forgiveness. It shows me that I can mess up and still be loved by a merciful forgiving God. The Book of Joshua, a lot of killing in that book, Judges as well, much killing, and descriptive too, but that doesn't mean that I will do the same.. Removing anything and rewriting will, I'm afraid, not change anything that we don't already have in us, to do what is right or wrong. To go to the left or the right. Responsibility is what people need, to take the responsibility of each owns actions, not put blame on a "book" or a parent or the system.
It is absurd that one could think changing or taking out a few verses will stop or slow down violence. We could start with Hollywood maybe to stop putting thoughts in our head on how to kill or who should be killed or maybe I could be Batman. Lets change or get rid of Shakespeare, or Stephen King, lets rewrite everything that could potentially hurt anyone.
Scripture is wonderfully written, it is history, poetry, wisdom, and Love. Taking a war out of Scripture isn't going to change people wanting power and are willing to do and say whatever to get the position that they want. It isn't going to stop anyone from killing to get what they desire.
Anyhow have a great and peaceful day D
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David America
God's word is true! Man's interpretation can be flawed! Proof??? Look at the Constitution and the Supreme Court! Look at the justice system! Look at Congress, Lobbyist, Super-pacts, Local Law Enforcement etc. If what you are trying to do is OK then first try it with the worlds governments; If you say but religion has things that hurt people in them, so we must stop this! That is the same as forcing America and the world governments to dismantle there military because people get hurt in war! Aint gunna happen!!! So this entire question is childish and DUMB!!!
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Angela
Blasphemy!!! Times have changed yes, the old testament is just that the old testament. I can't believe what I'm reading. But then again I do believe it, this is the end of times. As For My House We will Serve The Most High God. So for the people who feel the Holy Bible is "outdated" go ahead and rewrite it it will not be the first time this has been done. However it will not change Gods Word, you will still be held accountable even while your heads are buried in the Sand. God Bless You All.
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mlou1936
ANYONE can rewrite and rewrite the rewrites - it isn't the words that cause extremists to respond with extreme measures, for we will always have someone somewhere who will interpret from a position declared for themselves with no compassion for the position of others. Who is "we? doing the rewrites? This is nonsense. Go with your gut, preach and glorify from your heart with compassion. It is the goodness within humanity, not the words on paper that will bring us to peaceful coexistence............some day.
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Adelita
The bible clearly states that nothing is to be added or taken away from it!! As Christians who want to minister the truth, we have no right to remove from sacred text, all words in the bible are God breathed.Deuteronomy4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
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Krvin DeFranco
Thank you very much.
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Mary
I agree with those who say it's not the written word that is the issue but the way it is being interpreted and applied. There are already various groups/churches of Christians who interpret the Bible differently. Rewriting historical books won't change hysterical thinking. Also, I didn't seen comments regarding taxing religious institutions. There is the issue of separation of church and state. However, I see one church that is definitely not a non-profit organization and that is the Church of Scientology. They "charge" several hundreds of dollars for "courses" and "auditing". This is a "church" where you don't get to play if you don't pay. I know the IRS has been unsuccessful in attempting to revoke Scientology's non-profit status so, obviously, there are strong protections in place for not taxing churches.
I don't know what the answer is to all the violence happening today from kids shooting kids in school to road rage to global acts of violence and terrorism. I just pray my grandchildren will have a safe world to grow up in.
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Daniel
Most every Bible written has a verse or two that forbids and punishes those that change the word, adds to the word, or takes away from the word as it is written. So I would say, that to rewrite the old works would be outright sacrilege to the religion and the God of those biblical works regardless of who's religion it is. Now if someone is moved to create a new work and a new prospective on their religion, then go for it! Who are we to Judge? That judgment is left to God at his hand, ordained time, and place. It is then and only then upon Gods own Judgment shall we truly know his will on this subject.
As God gives freewill to man, man forces his will upon man through fear, threats, intimidation, and sometimes death and/or destruction. Interestingly, God is All Knowing, the Foundation of all Knowledge, and the Giver of all life as we know it, yet mans will is forced upon man by man as God allows mans freewill and ultimate worship of God on a subject to basis (DO AS I SAY OR HEED MY WRATH!) sound familiar? In other words as in God as in life we are thought from our beginning, Submit to _____ or face the consequence's,(punishment of some sort) So do we really have freewill if it is given on a subject to basis?
Read and Reflect. Use your freewill to rewrite the Bible to your liking and will it upon others and see how it works out.
Regards, D
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Rev. Emmett
Throughout the centuries there has been this debate such as is happening here. As a Christian, I believe that the Bible is clear. From Joshua - As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
On that note, you have been given the truth - what you do with it is up to you and whatever you decide, I will love you as one of God's children and pray that you receive the forgiveness and grace that is yours for the asking.
Hatred is divisive and solves nothing - when we disagree, simply agree to disagree and respect the other.
Only when we learn to respect each other will we finally live as we were meant to - as one race - the human race. Peace be with you all.
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Russell Finley
It all sounds nuts to me, but PC marches on.
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JO-ANN
SO MANY MINDSETS....SO MANY MINDS MADE UP....BELIEVING THAT WE HAVE SO MANY ENEMYS AND PROBLEMS...WHEN WE HAVE ONLY ONE......SATAN ....EVIL SATAN AND ANYONE WHO HE CAN USE TO FURTHER HIS ATTEMPTS TO BELITTLE THE IMPORTANCE OF LOVE AND PEACE.....OH OUR CREATOR FORGIVE US...WE KNOW NOT WHAT WE DO....TO EVEN ENTERTAIN THE IDEA OF REWRITING OR UPDATING THE BIBLE SO THAT WE CAN UNDERSTAND IT BETTER....WHATS TO UNDERSTAND.....BUT THE SIMPLE STORY OF AN ANGEL TURNED BAD AND THEN JESUS ...OUR SAVIOR SENT TO SAVE US FROM THAT EVIL UNTIL THE END OF HIS BEING LET LOOSE TO TEMPT .....US TO FOLLOW HIS WAYS.....WHAT IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND THAT WE CAN NOT ALL FOLLOW HIS WORD THAT HE LEFT US WITH AND THE HOLY SPIRIT TO GUIDE US THROUGH THE MAZE OF STORMS THAT SATAN BRINGS US ALL..... CHANGE OR UPDATE THE BIBLE SO THAT PEOPLE CAN GET IT????? GET THE CHILDS VERSION ...THAT MIGHT HELP..... MAYBE THERE SHOULD BE A BIBLE FOR DUMMIES.........THAT MIGHT BE THE UPDATE NEEDED..... I'M NOT TRYING TO BE GLIBE OR NOT TAKE ALL THE PROBLEMS WE HAVE SERIOUSLY.....BUT, IS THERE NOT A WORD FOR EVERY PROBLEM WE FACE....DOES NOT THE SCRIPTURES GIVE US THAT? JUST GOOGLE IT.....CAN WE NOT ALL AGREE THAT WE HAVE ONLY ONE ENEMY.....AND, ONE CREATOR...THAT WOULD BE A START TO SOME KIND OF UNIVERSAL UNDERSTANDING OF OUR WORLD TODAY! I HUMBLY WRITE THIS....BEING NOT PERFECT....JUST DAYLY HOOKING UP TO THE ONE WHO IS.....LOVEJO-ANN
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Dawn
Would you go to a doctor, let's say a bran surgeon, if he was using a 150 year old medical book? So why do we use a religious book that is thousands of years old and does not pertain to our life today? BTW, Jesus was not a Christian, he was of the Jewish tribe the Essenes. So he would be considered a Pagan. KNOW THE HISTORY OF YOUR OWN RELIGIOUS BEGINNINGS! As I am a Pagan I don't believe in satan, that is your belief and the Christian faith has created and kept satan alive. Why does the Christian faith constantly create fear? Choose to created love!
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JO-ANN
TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION........I THINK THAT IF THAT BRAIN SURGEON.....WAS IN FACT 100 % SUCCESSFULL AS IS OUR GOD...THEN HOW OLD DO I CARE THE BOOK IS HE USES........ SO ....YES.... WHY CHANGE SOMETHING IF IN FACT IT IS STILL WORKING LIKE THE BIBLE AND THE WORD OF GOD...IS STILL WORKING FOR THE CHRISTIANS OUT HERE...JUST NOT SO MUCH FOR THE PAGAN AND NON-BELIEVERS SUCH AS YOURSELF..... THE BIBLE SAYS DO NOT LEAN ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING...WHICH MAKES IT HARD TO UNDERSTAND SOME OF THE STORIES AND HOW THEY PERTAIN TO TODAY BECAUSE YOU JUST HAVE TO LEARN TO BELIEVE AND WALK BY FAITH THAT GOD DOES KNOW WHAT HE IS DOING...AND MOST IMPORTANT THAT HE HAS A PLAN FOR SUCCESS NOT FAILURE....FOR US ALL...AND, ESPECIALLY THE END STORY............YOUR CHOICE ....YOUR WORLD....TO SAY THAT JESUS IS NOT PART OF CHRISTIANITY IS JUST FOOLISH....AND, TO BELIEVE THAT SATAN DOESN'T EXIST IS PROBABLY THE BIGGEST MISTAKE ONE CAN EVER MAKE......THE BIBLE SAYS FEAR NOT MANY MANY MANY TIMES.....GOD IS LOVE....CHRISTIANS ARE SUPPOSE TO BE WALKING IN LOVE PEACE JOY ...ALL THE FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT....WE FALL SHORT....LIKE THAT SONG...."WE'RE ONLY HUMAN" MAY GOD FIND YOU AND BLESS YOU WITH HIS PRESENCE....I CHOOSE LOVE ....JO-ANN THANK YOU FOR YOUR POST REPLY
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Krvin DeFranco
Jo-Ann thank you. You speak with clarity and conviction. I have to apologize for losing my temper at times and letting the naturally aggressive Irish/Italian personality take over. I just get tired of all the hatred being cultivated by some on a universal, loving, accepting site such as this, toward Christians. The Word says God magnifies His Word above His name, that should be enough of a clue not to change it. WE both know that all of this was predicted, and all of it will come to pass, by the way I love your capitalization. Believers must stand tall, be bold, and bring the Word into #1 prominence, thanks again, your friend in Christ. Kevin
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JO-ANN
THANK YOU KEVIN....FOR FIGHTING FOR ALL OF US
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
And once again...writing in ALL CAPS only proves you know how to SHOUT.
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Krvin DeFranco
Now, now don't make personal attacks or engage in logical fallacies Crash. Someone might think you don't have any brains.
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
Not doing either, just reminding folks about Internet etiquette. It's generally accepted that typing in all caps is the same as shouting. Look it up, please. TYVM.
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Krvin DeFranco
Did you shout at the end of your post?
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Krvin DeFranco
Crash maybe its just that they can see what they type better, St. Paul wrote in big letters because of his blindness on the road to Damascus. That is why he took Luke with him as a scribe.
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
No, Kevin, TYVM is a shortened form of "Thank you very much."
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
That's possible, Kevin, but would it not be easier (not to mention more polite) for them to adjust the screen resolution so that they can see to type in something other than all-caps? Just a thought...
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Krvin DeFranco
TYVM.
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Rev John
It's too my amazement reading through the comments no one really understands what Christ died for.Do you not understand that the spirit of God that we receive is the one that teaches us,guides us, acknowledge us and you people are all confuse about the problems that going on in the world. Did you know the bible for told us about what's going to happen in the latter days?If you are of god you would have known these things.How about the devil?Did you know alot of the problems in the is cause by him, it's their in the scriptures.How about the bible everything you need to know about the further of the world is in their.You people need to know your God and learn what's his likes and dislikes you'd be amaze.People you all make an error when you say this is what I want you all forget it's not about you.According to the word of God, because of man's disobedience God had gave them over to a reprobate mind(Roman chapter1).Am I against same sex (yes) the lord don't allow it neither do I.I love my God more than you could imagine,he taught me if you preach and do according to the word of God, you will never fall, so do I want to rewrite the bible (no).Love God and love one another is two of the greatest commandment some of the people on the comment section if you protest to no the bible, you need to practice and learn your scriptures get the true understand oh and about people don't sin read your bible very carefully.If anyone need a little help on the word email me flight222.19531@gmail.com God bless.
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Krvin DeFranco
Christ came to defeat Death which is "The Devil" did you mean those who profess to know the Bible, instead of what you wrote?
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Danielle K. Anderson
No. Just... No. Religious texts have been touched, retouched, compiled, edited, translated and edited and edited again. The texts don't need anymore rewrites, they need to be explored more inwardly and explained. If you want a new vision, write make a new one. Not as a replacement but a companion to the others. The more we change the existing writings the more meaning we lose. These are deep, spiritual documents. If we keep dumbing down and taking a face-value approach to them, we will be completely lost.
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SHAUN
What is needed is not a rewrite but correct information - defferentiating between truth and fiction......Probably one of the most inportant resorce center it David Franklynns facebook page (with links to all sorts of web pages and books - which allows you to investigate the evidences yourself) - the results of 25 years plus study, hundreds, if not thousands, of books, articles and masses of crossreferencing and insight. personally I would also cheak out www.dayone.co.uk and www.josh.org - after all once you get the basics right everthing else tends to fall into place after a while (at least in your understanding of the way things actually are - though not always the way you wish things were). One vital peice of information is David franklynns full exposure of Islam...One has to ask what is the medias agenda in trying to make out that Isis is some kind of aberat version of Islam when the Koran (which is provably false) states over 50 times to force people to become muslims of kill them.....of course we know the real reason for misrepresentation...as always it's the big sell out for cash..
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Ed Burke
"Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." Statements like this can be construed to give carte blanche approval for me to do whatever I want with my Hindu friend's possessions, life, whatever, because he is already condemned. Whether Mark really said this or it was mistranslated because of ancient cultural differences, simple language translational problems, whatever, it doesn't matter. Please rewrite the bible
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Dawn
I think that no matter what is written by man is going to be twisted and used the way that particular religious orginization deems fit. We have to relize that we each have a connection to God and no religious leader or group should tell us how to believe! We are a Divine intelligent being of beauty, truth, light and love! No one should treat us any differently, not even yourself!
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Jeff
This Christine Lord has sent us forth to open up the gates of dawn. Through Christ all men may enter into light and life.
34) The Christine Church stands on the postulates that Jesus is the love of God made manifest; that love is saviour of the sons of men.
35) This Christine Church is but the kingdom of the Holy One within the soul, made manifest.
36) This day the Christine Church is opened up, and whosoever will may enter in, and, by the boundless grace of Christ, be saved.
37) Again the people said, How may we enter in that we may share the boundless grace of Christ?
38) And Peter said, Reform and be baptized, and turn away from sin and lead the life deep hid with Christ in God, and you shall enter in and be redeemed.
39) Three thousand people turned away from sin and were baptized and sought to lead the life deep hid with Christ in God.
40) And in one day the Christine Church became a mighty power; and Christ became a mighty word that thrilled the multitudes in many lands.-
Krvin DeFranco
Thank you for sharing that Jeffery
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Krvin DeFranco
Jo-Ann, dead spot on. We know about the Creator, we know about Satan if we all took the time to realize who generates the evil and not target specific groups and go to the source; we can effectively neutralize it. Bible for Dummies.. funny but oh so true. You are right, its really not complicated at all, God bless you for your candor.
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jeff
How 'bout we just get two annual notices from the "Grand Arbiter" as to what speech is appropriate--one for groups and one for individuals. Personally, I'm for deciding myself what God's true word is and leave the rest to sort it out among themselves--either peacefully or, as seems common now, violently. But thanks for the offer to edit Life, Truth and Love on my behalf.
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Kimberly
I dont mean to interupt the conversations taking place here, but i am slightly confused. When becoming ordained with this church, the only requirements we had were 2:
1.Do only that which is right. 2.Every individual is free to practice their religion in the manner of their choosing, as mandated by the First Amendment, so long as that expression does not impinge upon the rights or freedoms of others and is in accordance with the government’s laws.
So having said that, i am embarrassed to see my colleagues acting in such a way that is belittling to fellow ministers. To do only that which is right. Please tell me what is right about calling someone a name, what is right about assuming to know the mind of another and their beliefs and passing judgement on them for it?
To have debate and difference of opinion is a beautiful thing. Even more so when one stops to listen to the other and engauge in an educating debate. No one says you have to agree with the other opinion, but be respectful of it as you expect one to be towards yours.
This church is for religous tolerance, regardless of the belief behind it. It is about acknowledging that we all have differences wheather they be religious, cultural, demographical, educational, etc.. So to see one engagueing in a conversation that is slandering and degrading to another member, causes me to wonder if you are allowing your personal belief/opinion to interfere with the spiritual contract you signed when becoming ordained with THIS church.
It saddens my heart to see the unacceptance of tolerance, and the slandering of our members by other members because they believe differently. Isnt that why we became ordained with this church in the first place? For tolerance regardless of belief because we are all children of the same universe.
But that is just my opinion...
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Eddie
This is very dangerous grounds to tread upon. First off, there is a reason that there is a separation of church and state.
There is also a huge attempt, by the state, to control churches. This got it's big push via Senator Lyndon Johnson, when he brought about the 501c3, which then puts the state as the head of the church. Now, unless a church submits to the state, and gets 501c3, it's very difficult to get funding for legitimate reasons. For example, I'm wanting to launch a "Housing First" styled homeless program, but as my tiny church doesn't have 501c3, it's very difficult to do so...we don't have enough, steady, members, for a board, for one thing.
It also appalls me on all of these attacks on churches. Yes, there are some horrid groups out there, like Westboro Baptist Church and ISIS. Then, there's these mega-churches, with more money than most people can get in a lifetime. On the other hand, there's us tiny churches, and this feels like an attempt to crush the "little man," who can't compete with the mega-corps.
By default, churches do NOT need 501c3:
IRS Publication 557: Some organizations are not required to file Form 1023. These include: Churches, interchurch organizations of local units of a church, conventions or associations of churches, or integrated auxiliaries of a church, such as a men’s or women’s organization, religious school, mission society, or youth group. These organizations are exempt automatically if they meet the requirements of section 501(c)(3).
According to IRS Code § 508(c)(1)(A): Special rules with respect to section 501(c)(3) organizations. (a) New organizations must notify secretary that they are applying for recognition of section 501(c)(3) status. (c) Exceptions. (1) Mandatory exceptions. Subsections (a) and (b) shall not apply to— (A) churches, their integrated auxiliaries, and conventions or associations of churches.
According to IRS Publication 526: Organizations That Qualify To Receive Deductible Contributions You can deduct your contributions only if you make them to a qualified organization. To become a qualified organization, most organizations other than churches and governments, as described below, must apply to the IRS.
That, then, is the thing: churches do not, and should not, have to incorporate, because they're tax exempt and can receive tax deductible contributions, simply by being. Also, by forcing them to accept anyone, you are imposing your beliefs over their beliefs, and "Congress shall make no law putting one belief system above another."
Deeds should reflect their status. If a small church believes, for example, in the Bible, and that being gay is wrong, then that's their choice. As long as they're not lynching, or trying to force their beliefs, liva la vie la loco. Just like if a church believes being gay's ok, no one has the business to tell them otherwise.
We need to get rid of 501c3, or at the least, not require everyone to have such, when they're seeking to help people here...it bothers me that there's all this call to help everyone else in the world, yet we have veterans and families here, who can't even get the basics in life.
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sandra Stout
I could not agree with you more. But, good luck.
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Jeff
Hearken to what I say to you: Respect woman. For in her we see the mother of the universe, and all the truth of divine creation is to come through her. She is the fount of everything good and beautiful, and she is also the germ of life and death. Upon her man depends in all his existence, for she is his moral and natural support in his labors. In pain and suffering she brings you forth; in the sweat of her brow she watches over your growth, and until her death you cause her greatest anxieties. Bless and adore her, for she is your only friend and support on earth. Respect her; defend her. In doing so you will gain for yourself her love; you will find favor before God, and for her sake many sins will be remitted you. Love your wives and respect them, for they will be the mothers of tomorrow and later the grandmothers of a whole nation. Be submissive to the wife; her love ennobles man, softens his hardened heart, tames the wild beast in him and changes it to a lamb. Wife and mother are the priceless treasures that God has given you. They are the most beautiful ornaments of the universe, and from them will be born all who will inhabit the world. Even as the Lord of Hosts separated the light from the darkness, and the dry land from the waters, so does woman possess the divine gift of calling forth out of a man’s evil nature all the good that is in him. Therefore, I say unto you, after God, to woman must belong your best thoughts, for she is the divine temple where you will most easily obtain perfect happiness. Draw from this temple your moral force. There you will forget your sorrows and your failures, and recover the love necessary to aid your fellowman. Suffer her not to be humiliated, for by humiliating her you humiliate yourselves and lose the sentiment of love, without which nothing can exist here on earth. Protect your wife, that she may protect you –you and all your household. All that you do for your mothers, your wives, for a widow, or for any other woman in distress, you will do for your God.
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pheatherblue@excite.com
If before the Creator there was no-thing, surely what is considered by humanity as good and evil also came from Creator.
As humans, we were blessed with the ability to create our reality. What appears to be good or evil in one persons eyes has the possibility to be the opposite to someone else. It is not for us to dictate what is beneficial for the growth of ones spirit, or the actions of "evil" people in the world. Surely we can agree that the horrible things we have witnessed in history have been powerful teachers. Hopefully, with compassion and understanding, we can influence our world to echo positive growth from horrible actions.
I do not support the rewriting of the scriptures. If the scriptures are not applicable to our times, then the scriptures are not applicable. It is our choice to weed out that which is rotten to ourselves as beings and co-creators of this world. When we change the scriptures we lose the "First" meaning. Unfortunately, the Good Books of the our time have already been rewritten, and revised, and reinterpreted countless times before. There is no way short of time travel to know what the original Masters said, let alone what was meant.
Let us not blame "God's Words" for the actions of mankind, for mankind was given a brain to think, a heart to feel, and the gifts of choice, hope, and love to guide us.
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JO-ANN
AFTER READING ALL THAT HAS BEEN WRITTEN ABOVE...... I MUST CONCLUDE.....THAT.....THE TIME IS OVER.........YOU EITHER BELIEVE OR DON'T BELIEVE..........IT IS TIME TO JUST AGREE TO DISAGREE... AND, LET IT ALL FALL WHERE IT MAY........TAKE YOUR SIDE AND FOREVER HOLD YOUR PEACE.....LOVEJO-ANN AND, I AM SHOUTING!
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Crash Override (@CrashOverride64)
No need to shout, we can hear you, LOL. :)
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Krvin DeFranco
Hi Crash, just saying hello.
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Dan
NOTHING gives anyone the right to rewrite scriptures. If you dont want to accept what it says, then go to another religion. NO religion has to change just because you dont like the rules it sets down.
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Krvin DeFranco
Daniel, Rev. Fern, and Jo-Ann. You guys are brave. Don't you know you are about to feel the wrath of Khan stutler and brother John! Gee, how dare you express your religious beliefs on a religious site. You all must be part of a Cult. Your ancestors must have all been slave owners. Aren't you ashamed for dreaming about a vengeful, mean, and jealous God? Don't you know that the Bible is not Divine inspiration. Don't you know that no matter what you say you will be emaciated by the two most powerful critics in the world. Too bad they weren't around for the Council of Nicea or when Biblical scholars were reading Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, and Chaldean. You know, if we didn't have them around to insult us or show us how terrible "Our God" is I don't think I could bare it. God bless you for putting on the whole armor of God, and obeying His Word. They don't realize they are fulfilling prophesy by their actions, and there is nothing they can do to stop God's plan no matter how hard they try.
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Brother John
For all of you who praise and admire DeFranco for his comments and self professed Christianity, here are a few of his quotes from this post alone….
"he just has an orgasm screwing with people" "…I bet you cum all over yourself with every insidious filthy paragraph you concoct" "what you need more than a few harsh words is a punch right in the face" "In reality it was just a scab hiding the virulent pus that you are" "go pound sand creepy crawler" "I also rebuke you and your liberal, pacifist B.S." "You hapless goof, keep your brainless opinions to yourself" "God is perfect, you arrogant jerk.." "then wipe that brown ring from around your neck" "…. you pile of dog crap." "my Saviour wasn't a pussy"
With ULC's credo being "we are all children of the same universe" and the teachings of Jesus as guidelines, is this kind of disgusting and hateful language something that you admire and encourage? Is DeFranco a role model you'd endorse for those who may have doubts about Christianity?
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Minister Greg Harden
in the end God will decide whether to grant him entrance into his kingdom or let him "rest" in Hell. Kevin's deeds, actions, and speech will either be his undoing or his forgiveness. Only God can decide that. Not us. But it would be nice if he would speak like a person who actually believes in the teachings and acts accordingly and repents for his harsh words against his fellow man and apologizes for his actions. I am sure he is wise and knowledgeable enough to comment in these discussions without using the abusive terms he seems to be quite accustomed to uttering.
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Krvin DeFranco
I don't retract anything I've said about that low life trouble maker who did nothing but cause discord ever since he got on this blog. He deserved everything I said and more.
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Joe Stutler
Oh, Kevin. I feel so very badly for your parents.
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JO-ANN
YOU HAVE BEEN IN THE TRENCHES FIGHTING WITH JOE....YOU MUST BE EXHAUSTED......YOU HAVE FOUGHT UGLY WITH UGLIER....AT TIMES...AND, ALL THAT WE ARE SAYING IS THAT YOU DON'T NEED TO DO THAT...STAY IN THE FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT AND KEEP WRITING.....JUST DON'T GO THERE! AND, FORGIVE HIM....HE KNOWS NOT WHAT HE DOES............ YOU DO!
ACTUALLY .....IT IS UNCOMFORTABLE AT TIMES WHEN IT GETS SO GROSS.....THEN YOU'VE LOST ME AND OTHERS.....JUST SAYING....LOVEJOYPEACEJO-ANN
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Krvin DeFranco
You don't feel badly for any one. You are B.S. Artist of the first Magnitude. Go back to your snake pit you generation of vipers.
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Joe Stutler
When you show up, the smell of brimstone and derpidity fills the air. I do feel badly for your parents, Kevin. You give them, and Kevins, and Christianity, a bad name.
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Krvin DeFranco
Only with people of their caliber, I do apologize to you if I offended you. A, preacher once told me that he went down south to Alabama, to missionary. He met a man plowing a field, walked out in the field to talk to him. During the course of the conversation the topic of what crops he was going to plant came up. The farmer told him corn, beans, taters, cabb.. that's when the preacher cut him off and corrected him saying don't you mean potatoes? That farmer looked him square in the face with all seriousness and said "Mr. ,down here we call them TATERS". The preacher said he got the message loud and clear. I don't expect every one or any one to go along with how I do things at times. I know that sometimes I'm way too harsh or abrasive for regular people and I apologize to them, but I'm quite sure that these two characters got the message loud and clear. Like it or not, I don't sugar coat anything. Christ forgave Peter for his temper and cutting off an ear. I hope He forgives me for singeing a few heathen tongues.
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Krvin DeFranco
"Brother" John you and Khan stutler have had no problem degrading Christianity,its beliefs, denouncing the Bible as a fairy tale filled with "magical critters" , calling us slave owners, crack pots, and what ever else you could think of to dismiss our right to believe freely with out your bullying interference. What you got from me was pure rage; and anger, from a guy who doesn't take crap from someone like you. Now you claim immunity for yourself and all YOUR vitriol by saying "we are all children of the same universe",4 pinnocchios to you, and your creepy cohort. I'm mad at myself for letting a non descript nothing such as yourself ,get me so angry that I embarrassed my fellow Christians, to them I apologize. To you two hack jobs, I do not. I would relish wiping that smirk off Khan's face but he's got more problems than he can handle. I find it funny that you are so concerned about Christianity's image when you hate it so much. When Christ returns, He's not coming back a babe in swaddling clothes, He'll be taking care of business, then you will wish you were magical and could disappear. What He's going to do is a lot more descriptive and final than the harshness that I showed you.
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rev fern
I've died with child inside me 2 times in one day n god blessed me n my child with life and if believing in a gud merciful god is a cult than Satan must be one twisting gods word n harming lives gods with me and bless you and may ur anger teach you peace
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Krvin DeFranco
Rev. Fern you haven't been here long enough to know who I am talking about. there are two people on this site that absolutely will do anything to make a mockery of God's Word. They go out of their way to belittle anyone who believes in the Bible and Jesus Christ. I'm sure you will meet them shortly and then you will see what I mean. I was being facetious in my remarks addressed to you, Dan, and Jo-Ann. All three of you are correct in your thinking and expression of God's Word. However, they can't help themselves and will soon try to put you down just like the rest of us.
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JO-ANN
AMEN....KEVIN......FORGIVE THEM THEY KNOW WHAT THEY DO.....SHOUT IT FROM THE ROOFTOPS AND THE HIGHEST MOUNTAIN......BECAUSE ...BUT FOR THE GRACE OF GOD ....THERE GOES I....DO YOU REMEMBER THE FIRST TIME YOU JUST KNEW IT WAS GOD THAT CONNECTED WITH YOU.....THEN TO BUILD YOUR FAITH.....FAITH COMETH BY HEARING.....HEARING THE WORD OF GOD.... THE WORD IS ANOINTED TO RISE UP INSIDE YOU AND CAUSE YOU TO HAVE MORE AND MORE FAITH...EACH TIME YOU HEAR IT....THEN THE SIGNS AND WONDERS THAT FOLLOW ARE SO AMAZING....TO HELP YOU..STAND... UNTIL THE WORD YOU ARE USING FOR A SITUATION COMES TO PASS.... ITS OK IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE...YOU MUST ASK GOD TO TOUCH YOU FIRST AND, THEN THE RISING OF FAITH COMETH BY HEARING THE WORD....I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE ISSUES WITH THE BIBLE YOU ARE HAVING A PROBLEM WITH AND THUS....NO GOD....I JUST CARE ABOUT THE FACT THAT GOD IS ALIVE AND WELL AND LIVING THROUGH ANY BAPTISED BORN-AGAIN BELIEVER WHO WILL BE ABOUT HIS BUSINESS....NOW....NOT YESTERDAY .....OR 100 YEARS AGO.........NOW FAITH IS.... MAY GOD TOUCH YOU....THIS DAY....LOVE JO-ANN
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Krvin DeFranco
Thank you Jo-Ann. I'm going to suggest that we as Christians engage each other and not get involved with these two any more. They have nothing to offer us at all We should spend our time lifting each other up. Staying in the Word, praising God, and thanking Jesus for His sacrifice. WE have to move on from the MALCONTENTS disrupting our journey to the Lord. There are enough of us here now to overshadow their malicious intent. I am not going to acknowledge them at all, and I hope that all Christians here do the same and lock them out of our conversations. Welcome Daniel, and God bless you both.
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JO-ANN
GET THEE BEHIND ME, SATAN.......THE BIBLE WILL BE FOREVER BE OUR MANUAL FROM OUR CREATOR ON HOW TO LIVE IN THE SPIRIT REALM WHILE ON THE EARTH
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Joe Stutler
Satan clearly said no cuts....so, no, he won't get behind you. (besides, the view from behind you isn't all that great) You want to live in the spirit world on earth? Go live/work in a distillery. And please stop shouting. It's rude, and shows you have no netiquete nor class. Thanks.
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Krvin DeFranco
Jo-Ann you must understand, Khan stutler has two moving parts. His mouth and his ass, and they are both interchangeable. In his quest to prove to every one he's #1, he continues to step in #2.Those of us who are on the same page knew what you were referencing in your post. He got defensive because you mentioned his dad, Satan. Humanists can't relate to the spirituality spoken of in the Bible. Its the birds and the bees, and the flowers and the trees, and the moon up above, and a thing called the lake of fire, right where their headed. Keep up the good work Jo-Ann. As your spiritual life flourishes so shall your physical life flourish. Thank God, our God, that He sent His Son to us, so that we don't have To rely on the word of a festering boil like Khan stutler. Speaking of no etiquette, rude, and no class the statement he made about you says it all There is a special dating site for guys like him, its called "No Match". com.. for obvious reasons.
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Dan
Sorry Kevin, but the truth has a way of slapping you in the face. And if stating fact is being part of a cult, then I wear that title proudly. As for any of my ancestors being slave owners...all I can say is prove it. My father and so on before him are members of the Wolf Clan of the Cherokee Nation. My ancestors were treated far worse then ANY others that came to this land short of the Jewish race who got to stay here. Most of the people in the US now can actually go back to their native lands. My fathers native land sits beneath Northern Florida-Alabama-Georgia-Mississppi-North and South Carolina-Kentucky-Tenn-Virginia-West Virginia and Maryland.How can I ever go home to my fathers native land ever again? And I am just wondering how such an anti religious couple of people like Khan stutler and brother John are even here on a supposedly religious site. I mean we even have Atheists here trying to claim to be Atheists ministers. Now thats an oxymoronic term if I have ever heard of one. Exactly how can you be a religious leader of something that you claim does not exist in the first place?
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Joe Stutler
Daniel, you seem to gave misspelled my name. It's "Joe"... three letters, pretty easy. Alsu, you got it wrong about me being " anti religious"...I'm not. I'm anti-asshat - folks like Kevin. Yes, people can have belief systems that aren't based on invisible magical critters. Look up "Humanism" sometime. Sorry folks like Kevin came here and took your ancestor's land and killed them off.
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Krvin DeFranco
Daniel, I'm on your side. I was being facetious and throwing brother John's and Khan stutler's words back in their face. This is how they treat any one who believes in the Bible. I thought maybe you'd catch it. You are right, you have to be pretty arrogant when you claim you are a minister of nothing and then you portray yourself as an expert of something you claim is false or doesn't exist. But they keep trying; and continue to dialogue with us when they know we don't care about their paganism, and denial of the scriptures, and don't care what they say about OUR believing. One denies our God, the other spends his time throwing negative darts our way no matter what we say. Neither one of these guys offer anything uplifting at all. They try to portray the Bible as a negative book. They both claim it not to be divinely inspired. One claims that those who believe it worship a vengeful, jealous, mean God and probably were slave owners, or descendants there of. The other just engages in a pissing contest to see if he can out do you with negatively contorted use of the Word, just to prove you and the Word, wrong. You will get the drift after one, or two more postings from either one of these guys. Neither one of them are firmly grounded in the Word, but both try to come off as expert enough to disprove it. After several times of sparring with Khan stutler he'll label you as being member of a cult, like he tries to do with me. They both hate Christians as you will plainly see. As it stands, by engaging them, it makes it all about them. WE should engage each other, forsaking them so that we may edify the church, give praise and glory to God, and help those of US who have questions.
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Joe Stutler
I feel badly for you, Kevin. You don't appear to have any reading comprehension skills, and seem about as smart as a stump. Its really sad to see you attempt to drag honest questioners into your demented circus of fools. Fortunately, no one seems to be jumping on the Krazy Kevin Klub bandwagon.
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Dan
I am not attacking you.....my apologies if you think I was.
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Dan
I did look up Humanism Joe. And it not surprisingly has the same definition as Atheism. So my point is what exactly are you doing on a religious site when you dont believe in a religion, even though the US Supreme Court ruled your beliefs as a religion the same as atheism. Meaning that any educational course or any course taught in schools that even smacks of atheism or humanism has to be stopped because we cant have religion in the schools, thanks to people with your same beliefs.
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Joe Stutler
Not sure where you looked it up, Daniel, but Humanism and atheism do not share the same definition.
The word "atheism" comes from the root words "a", meaning without, and "theos" meaning god. Atheism is simply a lack of belief in the existence of god(s). Also, atheism is generally not capitalized as it is not a proper noun. It's not a religion, it is just an absence of belief in a deity or deities. Perhaps this will help you better understand: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
Humanism is an outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters. Humanist beliefs stress the potential value and goodness of human beings, emphasize common human needs, and seek solely rational ways of solving human problems. Humanism may or may not be considered a religion, depending on one's approach to the subject. Perhaps this will help you better understand: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism
As to why I am at this site, it's because I am a member of this church, have been ordained by this church, and consequentially I belong here.
As you don't know what my personal beliefs are, your comment "thanks to people with your same beliefs" is both inaccurate and rather rude. Making assumptions like that is counterproductive to understanding.
Happy Valentine's Day!
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Joe Stutler
Not sure where you looked it up, Daniel, but Humanism and atheism do not share the same definition.
The word “atheism” comes from the root words “a”, meaning without, and “theos” meaning god. Atheism is simply a lack of belief in the existence of god(s). Also, atheism is generally not capitalized as it is not a proper noun. It’s not a religion, it is just an absence of belief in a deity or deities. Perhaps this will help you better understand: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
Humanism is an outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters. Humanist beliefs stress the potential value and goodness of human beings, emphasize common human needs, and seek solely rational ways of solving human problems. Humanism may or may not be considered a religion, depending on one’s approach to the subject. Perhaps this will help you better understand: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism
As to why I am at this site, it’s because I am a member of this church, have been ordained by this church, and consequentially I belong here.
As you don’t know what my personal beliefs are, your comment “thanks to people with your same beliefs” is both inaccurate and rather rude. Making assumptions like that is counterproductive to understanding.
Happy Valentine’s Day!
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J. Paul Lanier
Daniel, your position lacks internal consistency. First you suggest humanism and atheism don't belong "on a religious site." Then you say the Supreme Court ruled that these are both religions.
I don't find anything online about the Supreme Court ruling that atheism and secular humanism are religions. I did find a Federal Court ruling that Secular Humanism is not a religion:
"The claim that secular humanism could be considered a religion for legal purposes was examined by the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit in Peloza v. Capistrano School District, 37 F.3d 517 (9th Cir. 1994), cert. denied, 515 U.S. 1173 (1995). In this case, a science teacher argued that, by requiring him to teach evolution, his school district was forcing him to teach the "religion" of secular humanism. The Court responded, "We reject this claim because neither the Supreme Court, nor this circuit, has ever held that evolutionism or Secular Humanism are 'religions' for Establishment Clause purposes." The Supreme Court refused to review the case."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism
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Dan
Why is it when people condemn the lifestyle called homosexuality (and it is a lifestyle as no matter what anyone says or claims, there is NO gay gene and that includes todays advances in science and medicine) all of a sudden you start getting called names that come from people acting like a 3 year old spoiled child? Come back and talk like an adult when its proved beyond any doubt that homosexuality is genetic. And leave your baby insults at home please.
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rev fern
Judge not that u be judged and I believed to each there own its in your heart and as long as you don't harm others so be it and gid with you
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Joe Stutler
Why is it when people complain about homosexuality they call it a lifestyle (and it is not a lifestyle as no matter what anyone says or claims, there is no proof that it is a lifestyle) all of a sudden they get upset when they're called out on their ignorant and homophobic statements? Come back and talk like an adult when you stop basing your bigotry on the teachings of a Bronze Age mythology. And leave your baby insults at home please.
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rev fern
Judge not that u be judge not that u be judged or walk in my shoes first
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Krvin DeFranco
Daniel, Khan stutler does not acknowledge Dr. Collins at the Human Genome Project. It doesn't fit with his operators manual.. You are right atheism, and humanism are similar if not the same. Atheism, is absence of believing in God or some higher power, completely. And we according to them are fools for believing in something that doesn't exist. They dismiss the Bible as nothing more than Despotic banter to control the down trodden masses. Humanists consider themselves part of an intellectually enlightened movement. Its genesis being the Renaissance period. They avoided any acknowledgment of religion as a source to solve problems, and rely totally on man to put everything in perfect order. Again absence of religion, directly influenced by God or some higher power. They basically are "Godless" same as atheists. They originally became "enlightened intellectuals" by studying Greek, and Roman Classics. Here lies their problem. Greek and Roman Classics, both having various gods who determined man's fate. The Greeks and Romans were steeped heavily in gods and goddesses, who used mankind as pawns in their game of thrones. What happened to mankind determining its own destiny? Solving its own problems. The conundrum is inside Khan's head and his movement. He tears us down for believing in an outdated manuscript filled with fairy tales, his reference to the Bible. Yet their whole movement was based on ancient "stories". He educated you on the difference between atheism, and humanism. Atheism is not a proper noun so its not capitalized. however, the reference point being Wikipedia.org does. Humanism may or may not be a "religion" depending on how you approach it? Give us a break, you either are a "humanist" or you aren't. And humanism disavows any link to religion. You have facts , you also have the scriptures to fall back on. That is why he calls you names, that is why he insults Jo-Ann, that is why he says I'm in a cult. You don't have to apologize to him for anything. Back to your original question. Why is he here on a religious site if he is part of a movement that loathes religion, and the scriptures? Just to mess with you, that's why. Stay in God's Word Daniel and rejoice.
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Joe Stutler
Oh, Kevin. You're so predictable....and programmable. Keep sharing your god's love....just as Jesus would have done.
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rev fern
What does of matter I mean there are real gud lol that are gay and not monsters and help others so y do we care to teat them down
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Dan
Whos judging? I am stating medical and scientific fact. Not my fault if you refuse to accept it.
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Joe Stutler
I'm sorry, I must have missed it. What medical and scientific fact did you state?
(perhaps the fact was lost in the homophobia and bigotry)
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Dan
You mean this? "Dr. Francis S. Collins, head of the Human Genome Project, along with his team of over 150 of the top geneticists in the world, who sequenced and decoded the human genome, three years ahead of schedule, have emphatically said, ad nauseam, that there is NO gay gene. The American College of Pediatrics also maintains this position"
And isn't it strange, that the very first time someone posts something that's a threat to you, you start calling names like a 5 year old kindergartener. I bet your mother would be so proud of how you turned out.
Oh and by the way, since hetrosexuals outnumber homosexuals by 99.2 to 1 the proper thing would be that you are suffering from hetrophobia as you are more scared of us then we are of you
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Joe Stutler
Daniel, a couple of things. First, cite sources...just pasting a quote doesn't really cut it. Second, that's just one source. Here's a counter: "More than 20 years ago, in a study that triggered both scientific and cultural controversy, the molecular biologist offered the first direct evidence of a “gay gene,” by identifying a stretch on the X chromosome likely associated with homosexuality. But several subsequent studies called his finding into question. Now the largest independent replication effort so far, looking at 409 pairs of gay brothers, fingers the same region on the X." news.sciencemag.org/biology/2014/11/study-gay-brothers-may-confirm-x-chromosome-link-homosexuality And another: "Taken together, the scientific papers of both LeVay and Hamer and the books that their first reports have now spawned[12] make a forceful but by no means definitive case for the view that biological and genetic influences have an important--perhaps even decisive--part in determining sexual preference among males." www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/assault/genetics/nyreview.html And another: "Scientists have found even more evidence that sexual orientation is largely determined by genetics, not choice. That can undermine a major argument against the LBGT community that claims that these people are choosing to live "unnaturally." That's at least according to a new and groundbreaking study recently published in the journal Psychological Medicine, which details how a study of more than 800 gay participants shared notable patterns in two regions of the human genome - one on the X chromosome and one on chromosome 8." www.natureworldnews.com/articles/10443/20141118/homosexuality-genetic-strongest-evidence.htm
Not sure where you came up with the idea that I was calling you "names". Do remember that you started the insults with your calling me "Kahn", claiming I don't believe in religion, saying that I am "acting like a 3 year old spoiled child", and so on. I expect that kind of behavior from Kevin, as his mother didn't raise him right, but I expected better of you.
Also, you're off on your statistics, too. Not only doesn't your math add up, and not only did you not cite any source, but your numbers appear to be wrong. "about 7% of adult women and 8% of men identify as gay, lesbian or bisexual" www.nationalsexstudy.indiana.edu/ Various polls find various numbers.
Don't be a Kevin. We already have one too many of those here.
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Joe Stutler
Daniel, a couple of things. First, cite sources…just pasting a quote doesn’t really cut it. Second, that’s just one source. Here’s a counter: “More than 20 years ago, in a study that triggered both scientific and cultural controversy, the molecular biologist offered the first direct evidence of a “gay gene,” by identifying a stretch on the X chromosome likely associated with homosexuality. But several subsequent studies called his finding into question. Now the largest independent replication effort so far, looking at 409 pairs of gay brothers, fingers the same region on the X.” news.sciencemag.org/biology/2014/11/study-gay-brothers-may-confirm-x-chromosome-link-homosexuality And another: “Taken together, the scientific papers of both LeVay and Hamer and the books that their first reports have now spawned[12] make a forceful but by no means definitive case for the view that biological and genetic influences have an important–perhaps even decisive–part in determining sexual preference among males.” pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/assault/genetics/nyreview.html And another: “Scientists have found even more evidence that sexual orientation is largely determined by genetics, not choice. That can undermine a major argument against the LBGT community that claims that these people are choosing to live “unnaturally.” That’s at least according to a new and groundbreaking study recently published in the journal Psychological Medicine, which details how a study of more than 800 gay participants shared notable patterns in two regions of the human genome – one on the X chromosome and one on chromosome 8.” natureworldnews.com/articles/10443/20141118/homosexuality-genetic-strongest-evidence.htm
Not sure where you came up with the idea that I was calling you “names”. Do remember that you started the insults with your calling me “Kahn”, claiming I don’t believe in religion, saying that I am “acting like a 3 year old spoiled child”, and so on. I expect that kind of behavior from Kevin, as his mother didn’t raise him right, but I expected better of you.
Also, you’re off on your statistics, too. Not only doesn’t your math add up, and not only did you not cite any source, but your numbers appear to be wrong. “about 7% of adult women and 8% of men identify as gay, lesbian or bisexual” nationalsexstudy.indiana.edu Various polls find various numbers.
Don’t be a Kevin. We already have one too many of those here.
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Joe Stutler
Also, Daniel, your claim regarding Dr. Francis S. Collins is fallacious. Here's what he says on page 260 of his book, The Language of God: A scientist presents evidence for belief: "An area of particularly strong public interest is the genetic basis of homosexuality. Evidence from twin studies does in fact support the conclusion that heritable factors play a role in male homosexuality. However, the likelihood that the identical twin of a homosexual male will also be gay is about 20% (compared with 2-4 percent of males in the general population), indicating that sexual orientation is genetically influenced but not hardwired by DNA, and that whatever genes are involved represent predispositions, not predeterminations." patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2008/09/30/what-did-francis-collins-really-say-about-homosexuality You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
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Dan
Spamming me is not going t make the facts say anything different
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Joe Stutler
Perhaps if you had some facts, you'd be better off. Even with the one person tried to cite, Dr. Collins, you got what he said wrong. Sharing legitimate facts with you isn't spam, either. Seems you have problems understanding the definitions of basic concepts like "facts", "spam", etc. Are you really just one of Kevin's sockpuppets?
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Dan
perhaps if you would use facts instead of the rewrite by the homosexual supporters, then people could believe you. but since you have not, then nobody does.
Sorry Joe, massive fail
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Joe Stutler
So, what you're saying is you also have a severe case of confirmation bias. Got it. Thanks for playing Daniel...I mean, Kevin.
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Dan
Nice try. When you cant refute what I said then you run away calling names. And we are suppose to believe you?
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Joe Stutler
Can't refute? Run away? Calling names? Refuted with multiple sources, including the Dr. Collins you tried to use. I haven't gone anywhere. I haven't called you any names, aside from Daniel and Kevin (as you appear to be a sockpuppet of Kevin's). It appears you have a chronic case of coproencephaly. You really should get that checked.
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Dan
you refuted nothing. All you have done is repost the same tired argument that Dr.Collins has stated that he never said till he is blue in the face. And if you will do your homework and trace this statement back, you will see that it actually came from the homosexual supporters and NOT from Dr.Collins as you claim.
Nice try, but massive fail yet again
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Joe Stutler
You remind me of that older lady in the insurance commercial, to which I reply: That's not how it works. That's not how any of this works.
You've cited exactly ZERO sources to bolster your claims. None. Not a bloody effing one. Not my job to do your homework for you. The maker of the claim has the onus to support their claim. I've substantiated pretty much everything I've said. That you don't like it is, again, on you....it's your job to produce evidence proving your assertions and disproving my sources. You've not done that. I'll keep waiting, but I certainly won't be holding my breath. I don't believe you can refute any of my assertions. Not a one. Whether that's due to your apparent homophobia or your apparent coproencephaly is open to debate.
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Krvin DeFranco
Daniel, remember I warned you about this guy. First of all, he doesn't believe in the Scriptures that are your code for living. And when any one contests him by using Scripture they are immediately part of a crackpot faith. And when you share things scriptural, or scientific in the case of Dr. Collins that refute his rational poison , he calls you names, insults women, says people are part of a cult and that's because none of his pseudo- intellectual B.S. can stand up to one of God's truths. Now today, you suffer from coproencephaly, a rare brain disease where your brain has development issues. However on other sites, it seems there are a lot of people suffering from coproencephaly. Yes, Daniel you are not alone my friend. It seems every body disagreeing with Regular Joe, or Khan stutler have that same rare disease. I looked up coproencephaly and it led me to blogs all of which our renowned professor are on. I stopped at the number 4 brought to you by The Church of Eternal Negativity. At one point he started out as saying he was tolerant and accepting of all faiths and non faith believing. And in the next breath siting the decalogue "The Ten Commandents" as part of a crack pot faith. On another blog, he injected his new found word of the day coproencephaly and that conversation quickly degenerated to name calling, insults and hoping that one of the posters would die a horrible slow, painful death where the rotting carcass would be sealed in a drum so that the toxic bile wouldn't infect any one else. That's about where I stopped, I had enough for one day. You see most of the people there weren't buying his B.S. either. He had a few takers, all from the same mold. So I find it really amusing that he is so arrogant, and so condescending, to Christians and then states that "he is a minister. So was Eichmann, Gerbbels, and so many other evil Nazis. They hated Christians, Jews, Slavic peoples Catholics and they suspended their speech and right to there beliefs and were dismissed as crackpot and killed.. But, the World won then, and the world will be righted when Jesus comes back. I hope this guy is still alive so I can hear him shout from Iowa, OOPS!!! The best thing you can do is cut him off. You'll feel better and be able to dialogue with like minded people who wish to praise God, and support your fellow believers I know its hard, because he's so caustic. Oh and don't forget, you are my sock puppet now. Wonder what he'll come up with next. I'm waiting with enthusiastic indifference..
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Joe Stutler
Oh, you are precious Daniel....er, Kevin...! Thanks for the great guffaws and giggles. Going all Godwin there towards the end was a hoot, and such a great Poe as well...awesome job! (you should send that to the Groundlings, Second City, SNL, etc....you seem to have the knack)
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Krvin DeFranco
Anybody that wants to see the real regular joe, or joe stutler, just type coproencephaly on your search engine and see where it leads you. I don't think you'll be guffawing, or giggling. Oops, what did you just step in?
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Joe Stutler
A pile of Kevin?
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Krvin DeFranco
Its too late Khan, you're already outed. Put some mustard on that hot dog cuz he's done.
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Joe Stutler
Exodus 20:16 Exodus 23:1 Proverbs 19:5 Proverbs 6:16-19 Revelation 21:8 One would be wise to consider the Word.
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Joe Stutler
Outed? I was never in any closet, Kevin. And it's "Joe", not "Khan". Would that I could a stately pleasure dome decree, feed on honeydew, etc. Also, please stay away from my hotdog. It's not for you. Go find someone available, willing, and age-appropriate this time.
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Krvin DeFranco
You put yourself in the soup "neighbor" stop crying. Everybody go to those blogs and see what I'm talking about. I never mentioned a closet, do you have latent homosexual tendencies? Have you been fooling us all this time saying you are hetero when your really a PUFF! I hope you are taking note, Daniel.
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Joe Stutler
Quickly, everyone! Run to the blogs! Kevin's told us to do so! Hurry!
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Krvin DeFranco
Neither you, any other "humanist, or atheist will ever destroy the Word of God. Its not going to happen, not no way, not no how. People can check for themselves, I'm done with it.
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Dan
Sorry my post is accurate. Humanism and Atheists do not belong on a site dealing with religion, something they claim does not exist. And just because the Supreme Court ruled them a religion, does not mean that the rest of us can believe that. The Supreme Court has shown sometimes they do strange things. Like Separation of Church and state. At no time in the Constitution does this phrase nor any of its words show up. Article 1 clearly says that only Congress can make a law or give weight of law, the Supreme court violated this when they said something was in the Constitution when it clearly was not. And article 3 clearly says that the Supreme Court cannot "interpret" anything, they must go by the exact wording of the Constitution.
Therefor my statement is consistent and on solid legal ground as well.
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Joe Stutler
I'm not sure where you got the idea that Humanists and atheists claim that religion does not exist. Pretty much all the ones I've met know that religion does indeed exist. As for Constitutional Law, I'll give due deference to SCOTUS, because that's key to the foundation of our system of jurisprudence. I'm curious, though...what specific section within Article III, which paragraph, which sentence(s) do you see that says the SCOTUS cannot "interpret", that they must go by the exact wording?
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Dan
You mean hetrophobia as you seem more scared of me then I am of you Joe. And please stop spamming. Posting two to three posts in response to my one does not make you any more correct, and in fact makes you seem desperate.
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Joe Stutler
It does seem my comment multi-posted above. Not sure what happened. Apologies proffered for that. I do believe that, baring the multi as noted above, we're about one-for-one, comment-wise. Thanks for keeping an eye on things. Sticker for you.
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jeff
TIME OUT! Get back to the point. The Who and How of controlling speech. I hope that it is my decision and I hope my speech is controlled by the divine precepts of Life, Truth and Love.
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Dan
Spamming again Joe? Your hysterical posts do you no benefit. And your name calling not only crosses the line but it completely shows that you have nothing to stand on when you have to resort to name calling.
IN short your posts are void and vapid. And do nothing but sow discontent and falsehoods. In another thread or place this would be called flaming attacks and the mods would have stepped in and stopped you long ago. They still may do that here is you continue as your posts are in direct violation of the terms of service which you agreed to when you received your account to post here.
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Joe Stutler
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection Happy Tuesday!
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Krvin DeFranco
Daniel, you caught on. When I think of all the time wasted on a malcontent slug like this guy, I could have been telling people about Jesus Christ and the hope of glory. Enough said. I'm looking forward to dialoguing with you, Jo Ann, Lewis, Christel, James, and all other believers on the site.
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Dan
Sorry Joe, NOBODY uses wikipedia as a source as it changes on the whim of the person that edits it, and ANYONE can edit it. Colleges and Universities would fail you if you dared try and use this site as a source for anything.
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Joe Stutler
I see you don’t really understand how Wikipedia works. Generally one doesn’t use an encyclopedia as sourcing, they drill down to the details. I was being kind to you by sharing an accessible source that you could follow through the references therein.
Anyway, here you go: britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/478472/projection simplypsychology.org/defense-mechanisms.html merriam-webster.com/dictionary/projection (see 6b) medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/projection
I notice you have yet to provide any sources for your assertions. NOBODY uses no sources successfully to bolster their claims. Every cogent person would fail you if you dared try and use nothing as a sources for anything.
Without sources, your assertions are naught but spam.
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Bob Long
rewriting scripture is dangerous, it is of GOD, not man, and if man is offended, tough cookies.
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Dan
I understand completely how wikipedia works Joe, and that is the reason why nobody uses it as a source and that is why no college or university will allow it to be used as a source as it changes far more then it stays the same. And yes you can edit it by being just a simple member. I have been able to correct items on it for well over 3 years. And when I see something in their "American History" posts that is not right, I will correct it with information from the Library of Congress.
Nice try Joe but your source is no source at all and by you trying to use it you have shown that we should take what you post with a massive grain of salt.
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Rev John
Sisters and brothers of the lord allow me to give you a helping hand on who's the author of the bible God his words according to the his word.Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. God wouldn't allow just anyone to interpret his word;but man because of disobedient made the attempt. Sure, they writing other book to make interpretation much simpler for man to understand still, it wasn't meant to be.Still, their is only one way and just one way to interpretative the word of God.
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Rev John
Brother John; I find it hypocritical for you to claim ( if they were more people like you the world would be at peace): while you're engaging in a hostile conversation with Kevin for however long it's been going on.
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Rev. Stephen C. Penney
Rev.Stephen Charles Penney,I believe sincerely that it is time for a rewriting to show the similarities of all religions,and the aspect of discipline of each with respect to the foundations of the beliefs of the prophets that enterpreted at the time of there visions.It would help if Vatican would release the transcripts missing from the apocrapher and the emphasis is to strong on the protestant bible overpowering what God has relayed to his chosen people.
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SHAUN
Interesting idea- howeve you have failed to understand a number ot things - 1/ True Christianity is about love and justice. 2/ there are masses of scientific, geological, historical and other evidences backing the Bible - in fact it is the most prooved book ever and I would suggest that you cheack out www.josh.org, www.dayone.co.uk, and www.chick.com 3/ Islam is provably violent and fictitious - the Koran states over 50 times to force people to become Muslims or kill them - I suggest you look up the book 'Islamic Invasion'. As Arms and Oil are the most lucrative businesses in the world the powers that be will try to underplay Islam for profit. We are all being sold out for short term gain. 4/ For a short section of major articles (with background books and websites for further investigation) I strongly suggest you visit David Franklynns facebook page. REMEBER - THE MEDIA IS OWNED BY PEOPLE WITH VAST AMOUNTS OF MONEY AND AN AGENDA TO KEEP THE RICH RICH - HENSE THE MASSES OF MISINFORMATION THAT THEY USE IN AN ATTEMPT TO BRAINWASH YOU DAYLY.
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J. Paul Lanier
Shaun, No one claims the Bible is completely untrue. But the literal Genesis account of Creation has been disproved thoroughly by geology, astronomy, archaeology, and modern biology. This issue is well known and I won't elaborate on it. Regards, Paul
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Krvin DeFranco
You are correct, the world is millions of years old. Science has proven that with carbon dating and geology. Show us all where in the Bible it says the world is only 6000 yrs. old. Its simply not true. It says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was "made void", made void. No one knows how long it was before God decided to rejuvenate it and give His children a second chance by being born flesh through the womb and proving to Him that they love Him. The New Testament tells us that a day with the Lord is as 1000 yrs. to man. So any one claiming that He made it in six 24 hr. days, hasn't read the Bible enough to see this as stated in the New Testament. Not that I'm limiting Father's ability. Just stating what's written. The only way to disprove God's ability to do what is stated in the Bible on each mutually exclusive day, which all ties in together , is for man to step up to the plate and show us how its done. I challenge all and every intellectual to amass all knowledge accumulated to come together to create one living cell. Come on, lets give God a run for His money and prove Him wrong just like your attempts to disprove His Word. Its not going to happen, its His creation, His plan, and His ending. Period.
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J. Paul Lanier
The earth was not created before light. The earth was not created before the sky. The earth and plants were not created before stars. The earth was not created before the sun. The earth was not created within 24 hours (nor within 1000 years) of the beginning of the universe. This is all well known and is not a subject of debate.
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Krvin DeFranco
Prove it.
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J. Paul Lanier
Prove standard astronomy? You're joking.
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SHAUN
PLEASE REMEMBER - THAT BECAUSE YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY GOD SAYS SOMETHING DOESNOT MEAN THAT HE DIDN'T SAY IT - THAT MANY PEOPLE MISINTERPRET SCRIPTURE (THE BIBLE) BECAUSE THEY TAKE A VERSE OUT OF CONTEXT OR DO NOT TAKE IT IN RELATION TO ALL OTHER VERSUS ON THE SAME SUBJECT - AND - IT OULD BE TERRIBLY AROGANT TO ASSUME THAT BECAUSE WE DON'T UNDERSTAND SOMETHING (EG - FRIUTS OF THE SPIRIT AND FRUITS OF THE FLESH) THAT IT WAS WRONG. GOD UNDERSTANDS INFINATELY MORE THAN WE DO.......GET IT??
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Rev. Billy (Ray) Vaughn
I think the NRSV is a great modern translation of the Bible, and very accurate according to scholars. I don't think we should ever try to change the text to mean something different than what the authors really meant. The history, evolution, and progress of humankind is evident in the scriptures. We must continue to progress in our understanding of the Universal Truths they proclaim, while leaving the relative and subjective ideas that were culturally based behind. The hatred and ignorance we see in fundamentalist Christianity must be combated with a balanced, moderate, Universalist understanding of Christian faith and/or Christian Mysticism. Fundamentalist Islam must be combated with a moderate, sensible Islam that is relevant to the times. The Progress of the texts is not nearly as important as progress in our thinking, in my humble opinion.
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JO-ANN
SO VERY TRUE....OUR THINKING MUST PROGRESS AND CATCH UP WITH OUR BAD SELVES...AS THE EXPRESSION GOES......MEANING...THAT .....NO MATTER WHAT YOU CHOOSE TO ASSOCIATE YOURSELF WITH..... THE REAL CHOICE YOU ARE MAKING....IS THAT OF LOVE.....OR THAT OF HATE...ARE YOU ALLOWING YOUR VOICE TO BE THAT OF PEACE OR WARFARE.....ON ANY LEVEL.... THE CHOICE IS AN INDIVIDUAL ONE....WE DO HAVE TO FIGHT...THE GOOD FIGHT OF FAITH AND FEAR NOT....AS MUCH AS NEEDED TO DEFEAT AN ALREADY DEFEATED ENEMY SATAN.....WE ARE NOT GOING TO EVER SOLVE THE PROBLEM OF WAR AND RUMORS OF WAR.....HENSE THE BIBLE AND THE UNFOLDING STORY OF THE PLANET EARTH.....UNTIL REVELATIONS WE ARE STUCK WITH THIS SENERIO OF THE END DAYS PLAYING OUT ON THE BIGGEST WIDESCREEN EVER...THE WORLD....
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Krvin DeFranco
Thank you Jo- Ann. I don't understand how this site can allow some one like Joe stutler to be here disrespecting every one's beliefs, calling them names, making insulting remarks to women, and expect me not to retaliate in defense of myself and others. I did top out at times, I apologize to you and all the other civil people here. Where I come from we don't let creeps talk about our women like Khan stutler treated you, we taught him respect, right away. We didn't wear our religion on our shirt sleeve, but we didn't let any one trash our Savior either. The internet has allowed people like Khan stutler to be bullies without any retribution, for now.... His time will come, then we'll see how he deals with the pay back of "Our Magical Critter". If you don't hear from me again, have a great life, stay in the Word, love the Lord.
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Joe Stutler
I'm allowed here because the ULC is my church, as it were. Do bear in mind that I have not disrespected everyone's beliefs, nor have I made insulting remarks to women. A cursory review of the various threads here are evidence of that. You seen to have serious disconnect with the truth, and an arrogance that is surpassed only by your rudeness and ignorance. Seek help. We'll pray for you.
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Krvin DeFranco
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what a Barney is; similar to a PUFF. And I guess that remark you made about J0-Ann was a complement huh .You're right, you just hate Christians who believe in the Scriptures or any one who disagrees with you.. Talk about a disconnect, have you been using a ghost writer to submit your posts or what. Seek help yourself or go back to trolling all the other websites you have infected.
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Joe Stutler
A purple dinosaur? And a "PUFF" would be a magic dragon that Peter, Paul and Mary sang of. I did ask Jo-Ann to stop shouting...it really does get annoying when folks ignore basic netiquette. I don't hate Christians who believe in scriptures...that describes pretty much all Christians. I do find it rather arrogant of you to purport to speak for Christ when so many other Christians believe somewhat differently than you (and so very many of them manage to get along just fine with others, unlike you). I am curious...why are you here? What brings someone like you to such an open and welcoming place as this?
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Krvin DeFranco
oh yeah we've all felt the warmth of your open arm approach.. You skipped your little comment about the view of Jo- Ann from behind. You are just a lying prick. Tying to be so meek and mellow, you are the biggest phony, baloney creep I have ever encountered, but you'll get yours.
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Krvin DeFranco
That's Barney, as in Barney Frank. Not as quick as you appear.
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Joe Stutler
Strange how you keep presuming to speak for so many others...."we've all felt the warmth of your open arm approach". Seems the only one complaining is you. Yes, I joked about JO-ANN's backend view...no one wants to see her go away...but you missed that. No, I'm not Barney Frank. I'm not sure why you would conflate me with the long-serving representative from Massachusetts. You seem to be getting confused by reality again. Can you ask a grown-up for assistance?
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Krvin DeFranco
Go back to trolling the other sites you've infected.
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Joe Stutler
It appears you don't understand the definitions of many of the words you are using. As for going away....no thank you. I intend to stay here on the blogs of my faith. Perhaps if you're uncomfortable with our faith, a faith in which we are tasked to promote freedom of religion and to "do that which is right", you may want to find a less open and welcoming place that would be less challenging to you. Have you tried godhatesfags.com? It seems like you just might find your kind of people there. Please do keep posting if you'd like me to share other sites that may work for you.
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Krvin DeFranco
Nobody missed anything about your comment of Jo-Ann, don't try to weasel your way out, you also told her to go work in a distillery if she wants to be spiritual here on earth. Just because I apologized to my brethren doesn't give you the high ground on anything. You're still a despicable, low life agitator and always will be. Nothing more, nothing less. Go back to trolling the other sites you've infected.
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Joe Stutler
Again with the misuse of words. Vocabulary must not have been your strong suit when you were in 4th grade. Not "spiritual", silly. She wanted to live in the spirit world here on earth. Spirit >>--> Distillery It's a pun, or play on words. (it's a shame you have to have even simple humor explained to you.) In keeping with my commitment to you, here's another site that you may find more to your liking: kingidentity.com. Looks like you might fit right in with them.
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Dan
Sorry J.paul but it has not been proved incorrect. Were you around to say that each day as stated in the bible was a 24 hour period? Or a century, or a million years? Until you can make that claim, you cannot state what you said with any factual proof.
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J. Paul Lanier
As I said, this is not up for discussion.
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Dan
Sigh...Sorry again Kevin. The Bible does not say the earth is only 6000 years old, that was a man who did that. Now since that part of your post is incorrect, then that gives proof that the rest of your post is suspect as well.
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Krvin DeFranco
Daniel, there are some Fundamentalists out there that make that silly claim. I do not subscribe to the fact that the earth is only six thousand years old. I challenged j. paul or any one else for that matter to show us where the Bible makes that claim.. It does not! If you read my post again you may see that I said the same thing you did about a 24 hr. day. Fundamentalists use this six thousand year precept to try and counter the millions of years of evolution proposed by scientists and those who disavow God's handiworks basically us, and the rest of the universe. As soon as fundamentalists make the claim of a six thousand yr. old earth, its like cannon fodder to these types. You are right, no one can say how long it was before God decided to replenish the earth. We live in a finite dimension. 60 seconds in a minute, 60 minutes in an hour 24 hours in a day. The Father however does not, He is infinite. Time means nothing to Him. Its His will that decides what, where, how, why, and WHEN, things happen. We are here for His pleasure not the other way around. The first declarative sentence in my original post I agreed that the earth is millions of years old. J Paul said that the literal version of Genesis has been disproved. I say it has not, because it doesn't state that He made the world in six of OUR days. The Bible does not make mistakes, man does.
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J. Paul Lanier
You don't accept proof, Kevin.
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Krvin DeFranco
Neither Daniel or myself has denounced science. What we do denounce is that your claim that the literal account of Genesis is false and has been disproven. This is a false statement on your part because the Bible does not discount scientific facts of carbon dating either. Daniel has asked you several times to put your money where your mouth is. That may be too blunt for you, but if you have the absolute proof then offer it up and we will both submit. You can't do it so you run and hide under the guise of educated professional and try to make us out as blind faith believers. So...put up or shut up.
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J. Paul Lanier
I've posted elsewhere that modern astronomy disproves the order of creation presented in Genesis. You can pretend that astronomy teaches the earth was created before light, stars, and the sun. Is that really what you believe astronomy teaches?
If you say yes, you're misinformed. If you say no, you are a science denier.
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Dan
Sorry J.Paul, you dont get to make that claim. YOU made a claim and I challenged you on it. Now if you want anyone to believe you then you have to PROVE what you said by showing a source or citing the bible's exact chapter and verse or you can crawl away with your tail between your legs. Its put up or shut up time child. Prove your claim or forever be known as the person that engages mouth before brain.
Your choice.
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J. Paul Lanier
Let's get one thing straight, Daniel. I do not respond to those who engage in personal attack ("forever be known as the person that engages mouth before brain.") That is known as an "ad hominem." It is proof one has no valid argument.
You may now rephrase your question.
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Krvin DeFranco
All you have to do is prove God wrong that should be real easy for an " educated professional" like yourself. So show us. that an around about way of saying put up or....
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J. Paul Lanier
Where did I say God is wrong? I said the creation account in Genesis is disproved.
God is right. However the Bible, written by men, not God, in the pre-scientific era, must be examined critically. It cannot be accepted without question, or accepted as true only if the clear and obvious meaning of its words are reinterpreted. There is no problem in observing what is obviously true. The authors lacked our modern scientific understanding. They wrote what seemed to be true to them at the time. But there is no point in holding on to what they wrote.
Now to another point. You may, of course, discount the standard practices of discussion followed by "educated professionals." I majored in Chemistry and Religion, and I was ordained in the Universal Life Church on August 8, 1971. I've never seen anything like the disrespectful discussions I see on this thread. ULC accepts all beliefs. There isn't any basis for personal attack in ULC.
Today Brother John cited some of your obscene and extremely disrespectful comments posted in response to this blog. After reviewing these, I find it difficult to believe that you follow God, as you suggest you do. I would suggest you humbly pray to God, as you understand God, and ask for forgiveness. I believe you will discover that God wants you to retract all of the disrespectful comments you have made, and apologize for them.
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Dan
I wont rephrase facts. You can either reply and give the proof, or you can live with the results. Your choice.
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J. Paul Lanier
Much better, Daniel. Thank you.
What claim do you want me to prove?
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Dan
All of them. You said that the Bible says the earth is 6000 years old, PROVE IT and prove all of your other claims as well. Put up or shut up time.
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J. Paul Lanier
I never said the Bible says the earth is 6000 years old.
I am not going to prove modern astronomy. Hundreds of thousands of experiments support it, and no experimental result contradicts it. The proof is vast. However, no proof will satisfy a science denier.
I said Genesis is wrong. Here is what I posted about Genesis errors:
"The earth was not created before light. The earth was not created before the sky. The earth and plants were not created before stars. The earth was not created before the sun. The earth was not created within 24 hours (nor within 1000 years) of the beginning of the universe."
You asked for chapter and verse. I refer to Gen 1:1-19.
I would point out that educated professionals do not say "put up or shut up." This phrase is only used by the belligerent and rude.
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Dan
Just as I thought. You made a claim and now refuse to back it up. Congrats, you have just shown your posts are not to be believed as you refuse to back up your claims.
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J. Paul Lanier
What claim did I not back up? You claim I said the Bible says the earth is 6000 years old. I never said that. Now who is not to believed, Daniel?
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Krvin DeFranco
You are the one who said the literal interpretation of Genesis has been disproven. Daniel said that one day was not necessarily 24 hrs. in God's eye ,as He doesn't live under the time limits of our dimension. Its been disproven relative to you, neither Daniel or myself have said the earth isn't millions of years old. We do say however, that the Bible doesn't say its not millions of years old also.
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J. Paul Lanier
Kevin, I said "the literal Genesis account of Creation has been disproved." You say a day is not a literal day, but your interpretation is figurative, not literal. I did not say figurative interpretations have been disproved.
There is, of course, one problem with saying a "day" is not really 24 hours. Words mean things. A day does not mean millions of years. It's no good saying a verse in the NT says a day is like a thousand years. That number does not agree with astronomy either.
This illustrates the problem of devising a figurative interpretation when there is nothing which suggests anything other than a literal account. Anyone can say a word does not mean what the dictionary says it means. This approach deprives any passage of any specific meaning, as the passage can now mean anything.
My comment to you, at 8:48 am today, is that the order of creation is disproved. Both you and Daniel keep ignoring this. Both of you have posted numerous times on this thread. Both of you ignore what I said, and you have done it all day long.
The bottom line, here, is that you and Daniel deny scientific findings as well as the obvious Genesis story.
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Krvin DeFranco
Well, I guess we're done. You have locked yourself into a finite dimension, and I contend that God has no limits and can do whatever pleases Him, and is not bound by the earthly mechanics of time and space WE will have to agree to disagree. Genesis does not state how long a time it was between the attempted over throw by Satan, and when God decided to have man replenish the earth. I fully accept scientific data as to the earth's age. Do not misconstrue what I do and don't believe.
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Joe Stutler
Until you say the wrong thing...then Kenny goes off.
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Joe Stutler
Magical critters don't have the same restrictions that real beings are subject to.
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Krvin DeFranco
Khan you're a bonafide degenerate Not much to do in Iowa is there. I'll bet you're a real Barney.
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Joe Stutler
Who is this "Kahn" you keep trying to have a dialog with? And now you're trying to engage with "Barney"? Is there an adult who could maybe help you in your interwebz adventures?
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Dan
Sorry J.Paul. YOU made a claim and I challenged you to back it up with proof. So far all you have done is obfuscate and try and use smoke and mirrors.
Prove your claim and stop pussyfooting around.
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J. Paul Lanier
I repeat, "What claim did I not back up?" Be specific. You are beginning to sound like a Creationist who claims astronomy cannot be "proved." If so, you are a science denier.
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Dan
Like your intelligence Joe?
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Joe Stutler
Yes, Daniel, I do like my intelligence. Thanks for asking. Do you like your intelligence?
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Dan
From your snarky replies, it seems my little toe on my left foot is far more intelligent then you
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Joe Stutler
That's one brilliant little toe you must have there on your left foot, Daniel. You truly must be a blessed man. Is the little toe on your right foot as equally gifted?
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Joseph, while I agree that all of the mentioned scriptures contain messages that are no longer relevant to mankind, I believe that the solution lies not in revising the scriptures, but in revising our attitudes. We all know that Leviticus proscribes homosexuality but in the same paragraph condemns those who wear two different fabrics. There must have been a good reason for this at some point but, face it--no one is going to hell for wearing polyester and cotton or, at least I think, for being created by God as a homosexual. Thinking people must accept that not all messages are focused toward modern humanity. The scriptures cannot be used to foster hatred.
If you're just going to interpret the bible differently from what the text says clearly. Just revise it already!
It says not to add or take from what is written so in try n to rewrite we must be careful not to take or twist the true meaing of god or faith
God is love or evil God isn't both. The devas or gods of ancient times were evil beings not of this planet.
I was having a discussion this morning with brothers and sisters concerning the hatred today against the gay population . One fact stands out God knows who we are before we grow into adults thus it makes no real since that God would create gay men and women just to dam them to hell . God created each of us out of love not hate . I'm appalled at the mega churches attacking homosexuals which in many cases has led to deaths . That's murder by proxy ! It's just all a growing evil fed to the masses in a religious manner . My wife and I have great gay friends and it's not for me to judge anyone that's gods job .
Well, I didn't get through all of the article...I only got as far as fundamentalism in Muhammad's church & St. Paul's church all being the same thing...which I've been saying for a real long time!!! it's all the same polarization & multi-faceted bigotry; beyond sexuality even...Taxation? I didn't know about the dichotomized injustice against secular, favoring the idiots of religion...but, I certainly would believe it...as you say so...I will have to print out & read later. Diana Donna DouGlas
The Word of God--and I do not mean the Quran--was not meant to be added to or subtracted from. Evidently no has read Leviticus--two witnesses were required to condemn someone of homosexual acts. And those witnesses swore on their lives that they told the truth or they would be guilty of both perjury and murder had they lied--which would have cost said witnesses their lives.
Let me posit a question: What happens if in 100 years it's socially acceptable to commit bestiality? Does that mean "holy" texts will be rewritten to allow such abominations? Or what if genetics progresses to the point where say a pig-human hybrid can be created? Would such a creature be created in the image of Almighty God?
Fools all--DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THAT THE LAWS OF OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT WERE MEANT TO CREATE A STABLE, HARMONIOUS SOCIETY AS WELL AS A STRONG FAMILY CONSISTING OF A HUSBAND AND WIFE TO RAISE MORALLY UPRIGHT, EDUCATED OFFSPRING? A TRADITIONAL NUCLEAR FAMILY IS THE VERY BASIS OF HUMANITY, REGARDLESS OF WHAT LIBERALS, SOCIAL ENGINEERS, AND OTHER PINHEADS THINK.
IF HOLY BOOKS ARE REWRITTEN TO REFLECT THE MORAL VAGARIES OF A DEGENERATE HUMAN POPULATION--WHERE DOES IT END? WILL CHILD RAPE BE PERMITTED (READ MUHAMMAD)? WILL BESTIALITY BE THE STANDARD OF MARRIAGE? WILL HUMAN SACRIFICE BECOME A NORM?
I PITY ALL OF YOU.
ALL OF HUMANITY--HAD WE NOT BECOME A DEGENERATE HERD OF HEDONISTIC, SOCIOPATHS--COULD BE GOVERNED BY TEN SIMPLE RULES...THE TEN COMMANDMENTS.
I'M SURE I'LL PILLORIED, ACCUSED OF BEING A BIGOT, HOMOPHOBE, SEXIST, RACIST, ET AL. I DON'T GIVE A DAMN, I WILL SPEAK THE TRUTH.
THE ONLY WAY TO SALVATION IS JESUS CHRIST.
Ditto brother, thank you. Never apologize for the Word of God, not now not ever.
When Jesus came into the world we were covered by the new covenant and not bound by the law of the old testament,which by the way has been misinterpreted to the point that it has lost it's meaning. When people choose to pick verses out of context and use them against others, it does not please God. The Bible was written by human beings and what they believe they heard or was told to them. I have a suggestion...how about listen to the voice of God as our only direction, that way you don't have to figure out what the truth is, since God speaks only truth. In the end we all have to stand before God and answer for whatever is deemed our "sins". We don't answer to another human being.
Not so. Every time they tried to trap Jesus, or refute what He did, or said, He replied haven't you read the scriptures, or He said" It is written" Remember, He was the Word made flesh. He did also say " I have not come to change the Law but to fulfill it".
Question, Am I damned if I have never heard of Jesus Christ. 2nd Question Are the commandments that you refer to the ones that were written or the ones that we were told about. Point thou salt not kill was mistranslated form thou shalt not murder.
Typing in ALL CAPS is no way to win people over to your argument. It only proves you know how to SHOUT.
Having spent 25 yrs in a very strict cult, morals and all, I have seen the devastation caused by the "two witnesses" rule. How easily another can be persuaded that what was seen was something else entirely. Also, as in many other churches, under the cover of "confidentiality" secret hearings were held. In fact, I was invited to attend one. I asked, "What am I being accused of and who accuses me?", the answer was "We cannot say" even in the face of Biblical evidence I produced, even the words of Jesus, could not shift them to divulge. I said I would bring my legal representative or a witness, "No", I would record the session and take notes "No!".
My crime? I attended the wedding of my son, who married a very respectable young lady who was not baptised!
My accusers? Men whose families I had to deal with over the years as an elder. Their crimes: Adultery, Drug dealing, dishonest business dealings, wife swapping, youth sex and on and on.
Yes, two witnesses could be produced for my "crime", in fact I made no secret of it. Our society has moved past such intrusion into personal lives. Power, is always at the base of such control freaks.
I ended up leaving as I tried to change their attitude to dealing with child sexual abuse. They told us never to put anything in writing and when a pedophile moved to another congregation that the "grapevine" worked well!
Dishonest, repulsive and twisted people. Little men given great power. Never again.
The same book that gives us the Ten Commandments also gives the right to own slaves, stone adulterers, unbelievers and disobedient children to death, commit genocide and much more. What we call "the Bible" was written by around 40 different men, not by God, over many centuries and has been revised/rewritten many times already. It's purpose was, and is, to subjugate the masses and place power, control and wealth in the hands of a select few. All that's required is to have enough fervent believers. All major religions have a form of the Golden Rule, but it is often lost in the clutter of useless detail and hubris that's accumulated. If we all treated others as we'd like to be treated, our only problems would come from the socio/psychopaths in our midst.
Simply believing something doesn't mean it's true. Belief without proof can be dangerous and destructive. Christian believers have given the world the Dark Ages, the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Holocaust and much more, including the hatred that fuels the current wars.
Oh please get off the pulpit. The Catholic church charged Galileo with heresy because he dared believe the sun was the center of the universe and not the earth.You see how that turned out. If we don't grow we stagnate. Period. The end. If what you say is true then we would all still believe the earth is flat.
You will never successfully rewrite the Bible, that task is beyond your intellectual ability and moral authority. Just create your own religions. It worked for the Mormons and "Church" of Scientology. Why do you feel the need to change other people's religion? I thought freedom of religion was part of your mantra here.
Mormons didn't rewrite the Bible. That is a rumor. Never happened. The Book of Mormon is an addition.
Steven, the Bible has already been sucessfully rewritten, revised, translated and interpreted many times over the centuries and this will likely continue. What appears in the dozens of different Bibles today was chosen by select groups of men over the centuries. What makes the dreams and visions of a Bible "prophet" thousands of years ago any more valid and God inspired than the visions of Joseph Smith, Muhammed or Buddha? Could it simply be because the birth lottery placed someone in a principally Christian society and they accepted it's common beliefs as their own to fit in and feel comfortable.
Sorry but the humans that wrote the bible didn't write it from observation only hearsay and its already been rewritten. If something doesn't work you fix it. You wouldn't drive on a flat tire. Freedom of religion DOES NOT mean freedom to infringe on someone else's life. That's for Isis and the like.
Return to Exodus and learn about what happened when Aaron made a molten calf to worship against Gods commandments. The people cried and cried unto God for help and he freed them and they couldn't wait 40 days for Moses to return. The ten commandments were barely written and already the people sinned against his commandments. It is no different today. People seek to change what was written so that they may live in sin without reprisal. God is God or God is not God; The God of the bible that is. The commandments are not warm and fuzzy, anything goes. They are hard and in stone. The bible has been rewritten several times. What now? Edit and edit and delete, delete to what end? Do we rewrite Poe or Shakespeare? If the bible is not for you then clearly you do not understand it with your whole heart and should look to another book (and another God) for rules that fit what you want to live by, but you do not rewrite an ancient text to fit a "modern" way of life. You do not rewrite the Nag Hamate, you do not rewrite the Rosetta Stone, you do not rewrite the code of Hammurabi. "These people, they honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me".
An ancient text wrote by humans. Who knows how much they misinterpreted it while they wrote it. I'm not sure and I wouldn't add to the confusion by judging people based on it.
The gods of the Old Testament whether Hebrew or Hindu were beings or entities not from this planet and they were not God the Creator. God does not lead people into battle nor demand killing or assist in killing human beings. This is most shameful scandal of all written history and within the next 10 or 20 years all of this will be known and accepted. Jesus was a proto-type for us all. The Truth is indeed stranger than fiction because our minds in these limited human bodies --which contain only our soul not our entire glorious spirit--can only think on a limited basis. God is All That Is and much more. We are God's offspring that has stumbled and got lost...that's all. We're all forgiven, as there was nothing to forgive. God is pure Love.
Jeff..In many circles, speaking about extraterrestrials brings uneasy snickers from those hearing it, yet there is no doubt that God, the angels, etc. are all extraterrestrials by definition. There very well may have been visitors to Earth from other dimensions in the past. It's preposterous to think that humans are the only forms of life in the Universe, although the Bible tells us that God created the entire Universe in one day, but then focused his attention solely on us. Aren't we special! I'm not sure which of the many Bible translations you've read, but there are many examples of God's involvement with killing, slavery and other inhuman deeds. These and many more are also examples of why the Bible is a "shameful scandal" written by some very twisted men with an agenda about a god who is jealous, violent, homophobic, and angry. These are not traits of a perfect being, extraterrestrial or otherwise.
"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Pity on all the Christians who have to work on Sunday to support their families…
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)