One of the largest adoption agencies in America, Bethany Christian Services, just announced that they’ll be opening up adoptions for LGBTQ parents - effective immediately. It’s a major turnaround for the country’s largest Protestant adoption agency, which previously refused to adopt children to LGBTQ+ families and instead referred them to other adoption agencies.
In many ways, the shift felt inevitable amid the general seachange of LGBTQ+ acceptance that’s occurred nationwide in the last 10 to 20 years. Gay marriage is legal nationwide. There is increased LGBTQ representation on film and television. But the primary motive may simply be funding: An ever-increasing number of states and municipalities withhold funds or contracts from adoption agencies that refuse service to LGBTQ families.
Doing What’s Right
“We will now offer services with the love and compassion of Jesus to the many types of families who exist in our world today,” wrote Chris Palusky, president of Bethany, in an email to staff announcing the change. “We’re taking an ‘all hands on deck’ approach where all are welcome.”
The decision from Bethany was not reached lightly. They spent years researching the issue, even contracting Christian pollster Barna to determine support among Christians for same-sex adoptive parents. They found that 32% of self-identified Christians believe that sexual orientation should have no effect on ability to adopt, and that more than half of Christians believe that being in the loving arms of same-sex parents is better for children than being in the foster system.
One board member, Susanne Jordan, said that “we recognize there are people who will not be happy. We may lose some donors. But the message we’re trying to give is inviting people alongside of us. Serving children should not be controversial.”
Christians React
Reactions from Christian leaders leaned towards disappointment. Many lamented it as a First Amendment issue, despite the fact that this was a voluntary decision by Bethany. Jim Daly, head of Focus on the Family, tweeted that “Bethany Christian Services should not have to choose between holding to their deeply held religious convictions and serving children and families.”
Al Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, framed it as a loss in a neverending culture war. “The moral revolutionaries are now demanding that every single individual in this society every single institution, every single school, every single religious denomination, every single adoption, and foster care agency, must pivot ... In this case, that means capitulation, it means absolute surrender to the demands of the LGBTQ community,” he said. “Christians have to understand: If you're redefining marriage, if you're redefining parent and family, you are redefining civilization.”
And in the spiciest take of all, some took it even further, lamenting the loss of the straight nuclear family altogether.
Adopting New Policies
It’s clear that the people running Bethany knew that the tide was changing culturally and it was only a matter of time before they were forced to change their policies universally anyway. It’s also likely this move will help save them money - Previously, they’d been serving same-sex parents in some states and counties, but not others. By making this policy universal, they’re likely saving a lot of administrative headaches. And advocates say it’s in the best interest of the children as well: The sooner children can get out of the foster system and into the welcoming arms of loving parents, the better.
Still, the risk of losing crucial government funding was likely the deciding factor. The Supreme Court even heard a case on this very subject just last fall, concerning the city of Philadelphia dropping Catholic Social Services, from their foster system, for their refusal to adopt a child to a lesbian couple. A ruling is not expected until this summer.
What do you think? Are Christian adoption agencies within their rights to refuse service to prospective same-sex parents? And when there are hundreds of thousands of children in the foster system, should we really be keeping them away from well-qualified parents, just because they’re gay?
113 comments
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MIKE
Indeed, I agree with you on several points. My use of the word "sin" was not intended to be judgmental, it's a word I grew up with to Express a connection or activity that is fround upon. Please excuse my choice of words. My intention was to suggest that a child needs to be exposed to both gender roles in order to make his or her own educated decisions about their preferences. There should be a natural balance. However, the beautiful of it all is we can agree to disagree. I would not ever stand in the way of anyone living his/her life as he or she fills is fit to do. That is not my place.
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Brien
I do respect your right to live and love as you chose. I would never make a judgement against you using those reasons as a basis. I would need FACTS to prove that what you are is harmful to others, that what you are prevents you from having a family.. Can you, or ANYONE provide one single shred of factual data that supports the position that a stable gay couple cannot raise a child? The fact needs to be just that, fact, not belief, not mythical posturing, but fact. I am not being unreasonable, but I cannot debate a point that has no facts in opposition. Gay couples have ALREADY raised children, and the stats of success are NO different than what is referred to as traditional couples. In some cases, the numbers are even better. As I said, I respect your right to live and love, why is that respect denied to others? Facts are needed, not myth. Not assumption. Facts. Peace.
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MIKE
I respect your rights as well, but you want to talk facts? Can you provide facts that a child raise by a guy couple did not choose to be guy because of his/her upbringing and that had that child been raised by traditional heterosexual parents would not have chosen that lifestyle? Just facts not believes, assumptions or opinions... just facts. Again everyone should have the right to live life as they see fit and I accept that.
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Brien
https://theconversation.com/factcheck-are-children-better-off-with-a-mother-and-father-than-with-same-sex-parents-82313
A good place to start your reading. Several published studies. A decent all around read. The bottom line of the studies shows no difference in children of same see parents vs opposite six parents. Ok, I have held up my part, now it is your turn. Keep in mind that what I have presented to you is in no way all there is. The data grows almost daily now due to the ignorance that has presented itself over the last few years now. Again, your opinion is valuable and your right to have that opinion equally as such. But there simply needs to be absolute facts to deny anyone basic rights. I hope you an understand my position on this. Basic facts must come from real research, not mythical belief. Real research does not lean one way or another but instead relies on results. Peace ✌☮
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Brien
I just wanted to clarify my position a bit further. In order to deny the basic rights of anyone, facts need to be presented showing harm. So far, the only statements that have been made are from mythical beliefs that not everyone subscribes to. No facts have been given to deny a child a loving set of parents. I am asking for one provable fact. That fact must be free from mythical belief, and must come from a reputable source. I am willing to visit this fact should it actually exist within the parameters that I have presented. ☮️
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Brien
16 million........that is a REAL number. Any guess what it represents? For all of you mythical believers that believe more in make believe magic than facts, just what are you going to do to rescue these children hmm? Do you have 16 million families willing and able to adopt? Be quiet, that question was rhetorical. The answer is NO YOU DO NOT. But you would rather block perfectly good potential parents out of your ignorance without ANY FACTS to back up the hate you spew out. The only solace I take from this is knowing that all of this ignorance is finally falling away. Peace ✌☮
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Jennifer A Stauffer
Gender of the parents should not matter. Many children born into a traditional mother/ father home have experienced abuse and neglect. If two people are willing to love a child and give a child a happy home, then the gender of the parents should never be a factor.
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Rafael Picon
Homo sexuality has been around since the beginning of time . No one taught them to be homo sexual . Homosexual parents in turn are not able to direct a sexual preference for their kids . The percentages of the children being heterosexual are very high . There is no evidence that Homosexuals cannot be great parents On the other hand the Catholic clergy has a history of sexual abuse of children and the Vatican has a history of hiding and defending those preachers
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Adrian McKee
Sexual abuse is not limited to catholic clergy. There is high percentage of sexual abuse among all clergy unfortunately. People in a position of power Are in a position to be abusive . A baptist minister Was taken out of his church in cuffs on Sunday morning by 6 police officers. They had a school and he was molesting the children. It took place directly across the street from where I lived.
The real tragedy is in the fact anytime there is authority there is the possibility of abuse of some kind. The actual facts Show Over 90% of Files Hour heterosexual man . Look up the actual statistics.
Pedophelia is an entirely separate issue. Women may also be abusers. The tragedy Is, the abuse of children, by anyone, must be stopped!
The Catholic church hid The Molesters. But so does every other church. As long as we promote The Idea Of priests only, We are being part of the problem. Take care of your children in every situation!
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Jennifer A Stauffer
Pedophiles usually are heterosexual, yes. It is usually a case of adult male and female child. Rare boy child. It is usually a power issue. The male to boy is a rare sexual attraction. Unfortunately most people watch too much life time and read little. I work in criminal justice. Two men together is not a perverted act and wanting to adopt a child does not and should not trigger a red flag of sex traffic.
Working in law enforcement I’d be more suspect of a single white male wanting to adopt a young girl.
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Tyrone Dashawn Hoagland
You can’t make a horse drink water after leading him there the decision is the horses. I said that to see Jesus said come unto me all that are weak and heavy burdened. When you do embrace the call you have to be ready for change that’s what he came for to set the record straight period. The Bible teaches all have sinned and come short or fallen short of the glory of God. Repentance leads to forgiveness of sin. According to scripture this topic is considered as an abomination to God. God is not changing because of rebelliousness to sin at all. This subject talks about an abomination to God where sin stinks in God’s nostrils while an abomination is detestable to God. God wants nothing to do with it he’d rather destroy it like he did Sodom and Gamorah. It’s simple remember Jesus passed the fig tree that didn’t yield figs in its season he cursed it and it died because it didn’t produce according to its scheduled season. We all are as that gig tree we have to give an account and if we don’t there’s consequences period. It speaks of this in the old and New Testament. Jesus himself said he didn’t come to change but to fulfill the law in other words its us who has to change God is not bowing down to something he cursed. In Romans the 1st chapter this subject is clearly explained in clear and full details. God is not changing for a reprobated people regardless of our feelings and emotions God doesn’t respond to our feelings and emotions God responds to obedience. Anything else is anti christ period. The scripture also said in the last days there’d be a great falling away from the truth. That there covered everything but as believers we were supposed to be praying 🙏🏽 against it. Instead we made excuses and this is an excuse to justify an abomination. Isn’t it weird that this pandemic started after they allowed homosexuals to marry and now you want them to raise innocent children under the spell or curse caused by an abomination. The devil is a liar I rebuke you sharply. According to scripture the flesh is always looking for an excuse or pardon when we were told to bring the flesh under subjection. So I don’t agree with these hypocrites. I agree with the word of God. Y’all need to read Romans the 1st chapter and repent and stay repented period. God ain’t changing holiness because of people’s delusions the devil is a liar and the Bible says he’s the father of lies period. (!) Repent (!) for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand period.
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Jennifer A Stauffer
Read Sodom again. They are talking about rape, not heterosexual vs homosexuality. The man is defending his guest against the town people, he offers his daughters willing for sex and the town people say no. They would rather force themselves on the strangers. This text speaks of rape and no one is angry about that, or the mans willingness to offer his daughters in place. The sodom story speaks more about the problems of the American culture than people are willing to acknowledge.
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Ella Story Johnson
I can understand why some people believe that same sex couples should not adopt but that is their right to object. Me , personally believe a child needs a loving couple , be them gay, or straight or whatever. A loving, qualified couple who will love, and nurture a child is what the child needs. The couple will have all the help they will need to raise a child to adulthood. I adopted my son with a lot of trouble because I was a single mother. My son is now grown and a responsible man in the community.
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Tyrone Dashawn Hoagland
The devil is a liar that ain’t what the scripture says at. This world 🌎 was never perfect 👌🏽. But the spirit of God made things easier. You bring Jesus death to an open shame a complete contradiction of the word of God. Remember it was the people who wanted a King when God was already their King. We as a people have been making wrongful choices and every time they did there were consequences period. Get your houses in order and stop being reprobated or y’all will feel the wrath of God period in this lifetime I guarantee you.
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Rebecca L Tice
Wow... you sound really ignorant.... go back and read the story of the Flood.... and the events following the flood concerning Noah and his son Ham. Then come back to see me.
You are making some really ignorant remarks, Tyrone.... it's ok... I use to be where you are.... you've been lied to by the demons in the church... check out 3 John. One of the liars was setting in a church John helped to plant... and he was calling John, the best human friend of Jesus the Messiah, a liar. You sound ignorant... because you are... it's ok.... go read the Bible for yourself... you'll see.
Jesus loved the little children....
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Hannah Connors
The term "wrath of God" has always puzzled me. I thought the story was that God was loving being. Living in fear of a Deity sounds awful.
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Dr. Jerry Moyes
I'm glad logic and reason have won out. These children are the real winners, as they're getting a good home with caring parents. Love is love.
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Adrian McKee
Love always wins!
Random heterosexual relationships are unstable but not criticized. Why is that? People that love each other and are stable can make excellent parents when they want children. Often straight parents children are accidental pregnancies. That does not happen in gay and lesbian relationship s.
The bottom line is this. Gay and lesbian relationships are no threat to straight couples because the solution is obvious. If you're straight stay straight! If you're LGBT stay that way and try to be the best person you can be. Of course that goes for straight people as well. Trust me, no one is trying to recruit you and there is no agenda!
Loving couples can raise good children. It doesn't matter if they're gay or straight. They can also raise miserable, self righteous, condemning unhappy little people that want everyone else to be that way as well.
I look forward to the day when hatred, born of ignorance and misunderstanding, of race or orientation are just bad memories on the wrong side of history.
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Jean-Michel Rochereau
From what I read, the "Universal" Church will still gets divided as is society. Please, consider 2 things :
1°) nobody "turns" gay, you born like that, it is not perversion, it is just "a difference". A parent can be gay or the children can be. 2°) We all should look for stability for the child, how can we consider a gay couple less able to educate children than an orphanage?
We are speaking about adoption, not "paying" for the production of a child. Please, consider an orphan as being happier as a son beloved and cared rather than an orphan.
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Vicki L. Beyerlein
My best friend is a gay man. (I am female) he married a girl for the very reason he wanted kids but could not in the state he lives in. She married him just for this reason. They had 3 girls and then they divorced and she gave him custody. He is a great father and went out of his way to give them all that they needed. They all are grown now and gave him grandkids, they are all "normal" and have "normal" marriages. They spent time with their Mom just as many divorced families did. He is now a foster parent for kids who need stability.......
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Robert Francis Miller
In the perfect world a mother and father would be best alas this world ain’t perfect if a non conventional family can give the child the love and care it needs so be it
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Dean Allen White
Direct, and to the point. Well said sir! We don't all live in "Perfect" (I think it's near Peoria), and what may be considered perfect isn't always attainable. A loving stable home if any kind is preferable to being institutionalized.
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Linda Salavarria
These dissenters Need to get over it! Unlike what was shown on TV, there was never any real nuclear family in this country. Keep in mind that the "traditional" family was never really traditional and was mostly a myth. If you have a father who is working and a mother who stays home with the children, even if you go back hundreds of years in this country, the children are basically being raised by a single parent, meaning the mother. Other relatives would probably chip in if they were available and that would usually mean another relative or friend, or even siblings. This scenario applies to single fathers as well. My own father worked and was "traditional" and I barely had a relationship with him as a child. When my parents broke up and my mother became head of the household, there was really no dramatic change in circumstances from my perspective...business as usual. So in essence, there really hasn't been a "traditional" family in this country, with many scenarios existing for decades, and people need to get over the fact that this idea is finally being recognized.
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Rhonda Irey
I am the proud parent of four Christian children and five grandchildren. All four children have loving families with children. My oldest son is married to a man. Aside from saying that he is married to a man, that family is no different than my other three children's families. Accepted by the church where he grew up was a stepping stone - but he has reached the top step and his family is loved and supported by many. He never holds back who he is, but he doesn't wear a banner or crown announcing it either. He continues to teach many LBGTQ families about the life of Jesus Christ and how he loves them while others condemn.
I understand that it may be a tough pill for many to swallow, especially if you are over 80 years of age and have been raised to believe one definition of a couple to be a man and a woman. My father is 87, a Sunday School teacher and in many ways a minister to others in his own rite. If he can accept out of Christian love my children and their children and decisions made in their house, than I believe others can learn to do the same. God loves all. He wants US to love all. That is tough to do many times over BUT the Lord my God will be the last judge. Don't be a bully just because you feel threatened and lack in understanding. Reach out, share love.
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
It's about time. These kids deserve a home and a family.
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Kenneth E. Salvage Sr
Well I would say Its no problem if you want to end up as a pillar of salt on the side of a hill someplace like Lott's wife! This is just another attack on the male/female family unit, which has been the glue that holds civilization together from the garden of Eden, or the time we emerged from the caves. Secular culture is a cancer! You either follow the bibles / evolution's moral codes are you don't. Its your soul to throw away!
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Adrian McKee
Approximately 11% of American families are considered traditional. That means a man his wife and their children. Do you have that problem with unwed straight couples living together Having children? Or when neither 1 of them are serving Or when neither 1 of them are serving God or have any spirituality? In San Diego county, during the height of the AIDS epidemic, Lesbian and gay couples we're not allowed to adopt or even foster children. There were many AIDS babies being born to presumably straight couples. They did not want them but the gay and lesbian community did. Even though they knew they were going to suffer Even though they knew they were going to suffer the heartbreak of losing that child within a year.
Where is your moral high ground there? Infant's were dying alone in institutional settings. Unloved and unwanted by straight couples.
I was raised in a lesbian household. I am stable and not a drug addict or alcoholic. I have 2 children of my own. My husbands are deceased.
I have a masters and a bachelors degree largely due to the efforts of my mother's lover. She was the secretary to the dean of a large university and assisted me in graduating high school early. She also assisted setting up programs for me to attend college early. She was also the secretary to the minister/pastor of the largest church in Long Beach California. He never knew she was a lesbian. She was one of the most supportive people in my life. My mother and father were legally married but he chose to not be in my life from my age of two. He also did not support me at anytime. As an adult I was able to form a relationship with him.
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Kevin Joseph Kervick
The risk of sexual assault in these unions is high, from the fathers themselves but also from friends of the fathers when their boys get older. I wish it were not true.
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Daniel William Fenning
Love is Love! It's time we stop ostracizing them, and accept them into the fold! Gay relationships are NOT new, NOT evil and should NOT be prevented
I've known plenty of Heterosexual relationships that should never have had children, yet nobody prevents that
Welcome to 2021 where we should ALL accept ALL people!
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Tim Martin Beresford
Yep it's a evil world . This should not be promoted . Don't give me the love story . It's sodomites loving sodomites simple stuff . Repent and lock that demon in the trunk . Do not be a Shepard who lives in a tree when the wolves come for the sheep . The sodomites are trying to increase their numbers with the false falicy of love . Come down from the tree with the whip of Christ .
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Brien
You can keep your fear and ignorance. I prefer life, love, and liberty. You and others like you are the very reason why organized brainwashing of weak minded souls are finally beginning to fail. To be honest with you, we don't have to do anything but watch the ignorance fall away. Peace ✌☮
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Tim Martin Beresford
Yep it's a evil world . This should not be promoted . Don't give me the love story . It's sodomites loving sodomites simple stuff . Repent and lock that demon in the trunk . Do not be a Shepard who lives in a tree when the wolves come for the sheep . The sodomites are trying to increase their numbers with the false falicy of love . Come down from the tree with the whip of Christ .
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I look at CNN everyday, and didn't know there was more than one openly gay man working for that network. Have they claimed to be friends of Anderson Cooper, or vice versa? I'm truly curious. I didn't even know that Anderson had any gay friends, and don't think it's a given that gay people befriend, or even associate with other gay friends. It doesn't seem like that would be a criteria to base a friendship on. I've had friends and associates of numerous bways of life, and I can't recall any of them telling me that they were straight or gay, nor was I ever curious.
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John Norris Campbell
When I was a Biker, I hung out with others that shared my intrest.When I was living life as an openly Bi-sexual man, I also hung out with like minded couples. When I was active in the world of drugs....yep..you guessed it, I hung out with other potheads. Most people will show their 'cards' they play, and after just a few minutes of social interaction, one can figure it out. MOST times...lol I've hit on guys that I thought would like a 'playdate', but my "gaydar" must have been on pause... just sharing some personal life experience--peace!
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Ilmenheru Terikson
JNC I am not sure what you hope to do with such a post other then further out yourself as a person of at best questionable honesty.
Bikers, basically just equals pimps, meth cooker/salers, and human traffickers. You say bi sexual in a way that just sounds very much like the kind of trolls who claim that to try to hide behind it as they spew homophobia, which you have been doing frequently so yeah.
more then 70% of the U.S. smokes pot, and I love how you try to imply that drug addicts and pot heads are somehow in the same faction. Jeff Sessions is that you?
And your final bit, sure makes it sound like your openly admitting to sexual harassment and maybe even assault and trying to say its just some kind of typical behavior for homosexuals.
News flash flirtation with anyone at anytime when they are not clearly open to some kind of romantic relationship is always harassment.
You sound way to much like one of those guys who assaults a woman at work and then ask in an innocent tone I dont understand what I was doing wrong.
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John Norris Campbell
As always, I completly enjoy our dialog. "What we have here is, FAILURE to COMMUNICATE"...LOL...That's a reference from a movie called "Cool Hand Luke" Let me bring you up to speed on my comments. My reference to my OLD life is only being used to illustrate the complete FUNDEMENTAL change of heart that I experienced when I met Christ. Now before you get all carried away with my "delusion"...there is a reason why I am in Prison ministry...Because I speak what I believe to be truth. I'm not here to "sell" you anything. Have you ever wondered why Weed is considered a "gateway" drug? Well as a one time unlicensed and undocumated Pharmacist and one stop store for all your party needs...one could literally get what ever your little heart desired, as a matter of fact, I'd give the weed away if you spent more than 500 bucks. Child trafficking?---not on purpose..I had a couple hit me up for a "front" (unsecured loan) on some drugs...This very obvious new mother and her dude begged me to take as collateral, their new born daughter...long story short they never came back and after 3 days I had one of my girlfriends drop off the kid at a local hospital...."Sexual Harassment?" Thank you for your "news flash" but the person I hit on was in a gay bar during a drag show...so sue me if I hurt his feelings assuming he just might be crusing, I'm not sure who your friend Jeff is so I really cannot comment on that.
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Brien
I am happy that you found something that works for you. It is too bad that all you got from it was fear and ignorance. Please don't you for one minute think that you are the only one who walked on the wrong side of life. Not all of us came out of it ignorant and fearful. Many came out of it stronger and wiser, without the need to lean on myths. Peace ✌☮
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I don't know a whole lot about this subject Lionheart, but I did once know a gay man who adopted a baby girl. Although he was in a long-term relationship with another man,that was quite a few years before they legalized gay marriage in the United States. Like any other adoption I would assume gender selection would be the choice of the potential adoptive parents. And different individuals have different reasons for wanting a son or daughter. They can't all be clumped together into one group.
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Brien
I have read most all of the comments so far of both opinions. After doing a bit of research I simply cannot find any statistics that show one belief or another have any correlation to well balanced children. To be honest, education seems to take the lead as far as effects on a child. Just my own research, let me know if anyone can show statistics to the contrary....Peace
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Adrian McKee
Agreed!
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Dave J
I think it's about time. The foster care system is so overloaded and harms children so much that I am in favor of any adoption to a stable environment. Even a single parent. So a gay couple? Excellent. Two people caring for a child. Awesome.
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Brien
If you lift all of the stupid labels that all of you devoted religious people use to judge others, (oh wait you're not supposed to be a judge), all of these nonsense debates would disappear completely. Your judgements are the work of pure fiction an bad assumptions. I give this challenge to you: Next time you want to judge someone, judge them simply as a human being. Not what or how they love, not who they vote for, not what color they are. You will soon realize that all of your labels mean.... NOTHING. Peace
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Daniel Jackson
Where are we told not to judge others?
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Gary Stephen Lowden
Jesus said, “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you” (Matthew 7:1–2).
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Brian Scott Hoff
Good quote. I'm not a believer but I do think you quoted that well.
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Brien
Well, someone beat me to it. I hope you read the reply. But, to put a more modern spin on it, we have these people, we call them......JUDGES. They have an extreme amount of education and service that qualifies them to bear that title. When they cast judgements, they do so in a court of...LAW. This is where you find that discrimination loses. They themselves never judge outside of court nor with in public opinion. I know that you will not accept this answer as it is based on logic, not fear and ignorance, Peace
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Daniel Jackson
Where are we instructed not to judge?
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Brien
Ok, I do not normally do this, but in this case I have no choice. From the book of myth that is followed by so many and used as an excuse for hate and ignorance: The Gospel According to John”, chapter 8, verses 3–7 ³And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, ⁴They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. ⁵Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? ⁶This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. ⁷So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. Read that last line a couple of times if you need to. I know feel polluted by having to plagiarize something out of that book, so I will meditate and re-center myself
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Richard Lee Cornell
Their marriage will last longer than the straights who seem to stray from their vows within five years. Just look at the divorce rate among straights.
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Ilmenheru Terikson
RLC the fact you still use a word like straight tells me you are not an ally of the LGTBQ community. The term would be Cis or hetero.
As for marriage, it is in general an archaic practice with no real place in the modern world. I encourage the new modern more less strings attached while living with those who love and care about approach i am seeing more of in the youth of today. It seems far less prone to the drama and violence the old possessive nature of marriage often causes when feelings fade and hearts seek someone else for partnership.
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Anisahoni
Illmenheru. I respectfully disagree with you about some of your ideas about marriage. I want to present a different point of view & different set of experiences. The "possessive nature of marriage" is only established by the couple involved. Possessiveness is about fear and insecurity and is unhealthy. Same with violence and "drama." Much of the succes of an interpersonal relationship like marriage, depends on the mental health of the couple, their ability to commuicate effectively, share mutual respect, understaanding, and willingness to compromise without "ownership." My husband and I married while we were starving undergrad college students and we did a lot of work to improve our relationship and reach a level of understanding that some couples are too lazy to work on. I know, as a psychotherapist, I have met plenty of couples who thought it was going to be a piece of cake with little effort. My husband, a school psychologist, and I are equals, we are educated, intelligent, share love for the arts, philosophy, reading, politics and intellectual discussion. We made our needs and wants clear to each other at the outset. We have been married 45 years and our relationship is nothing like either of our parents. I have always been respected, never threatened, nor screamed at like my grandson, who is in a difficult relationship with his girlfriend. Marriage is not a dinosaur. People who think like dinosaurs and have unrealistic expectations are the problem. Love is not enough.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
In the gay bars I've been known to frequent the term straight is still often used in reference to heterosexuals. Ofcourse, the gay people I've been known to associate with aren't getting any younger, and with younger generations come new slang terms. Iether way, it's all hip, slick, and groovy with me. Like far out, and out of sight!
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Ilmenheru Terikson
Sure in a casual setting among friends. I mean I am 40 I have black friends and we grew up watching as much black comedy as anything else, and while I would never use any variant of the N word in public among them i can say what up my N ending in ah just like they call me their white ape because I was big into Tarzan as a kid.
But as I gather, among the youth it seems older terms like straight imply there is something twisted about being other then hetero.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I haven't heard anything about gay divorce yet. Maybe such a thing doesn't even exist, yet. However, I wouldn't be surprised if it eventually did. People are people, and gays are no different than straights when it comes to falling in and out of love.
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Lionheart
Anderson Cooper, one of your CNN friends, has now split with his boyfriend, but i guess they were never married. They are staying friends though for the child’s sake. I’m curious though if male partners always select male children to adopt, and female partners select female children?
🦁❤️
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Anisahoni
It is amazing to read all of these comments, with many pushing the historic bible thing as a justifcation to discriminate against a segment of the human race. What's even more weird is the bible thumpers who come here have no connection to the ULC. Why do we put up with their hate, their homophobia, racist and religous bigotry? It is a total waste of time to engage these trolls as they are only here to spout their rage, hate, misogyny, misery and conflict. Their minds are closed, They live in utter fear and are still waiting for their "Lord and Savior" to fly down to Earth and take them to a distant planet they would like to believe is "heaven." They have minds like 3rd graders engaging in magical thinking, and have not evolved spiritually at all.
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Lionheart
It is indeed a conundrum, I tend to put it down to education, or that many have never actually sat down and read the Bible in a true attempt to understand it.
🦁❤️
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flugo
'catch 'o grip': Your lack of scholarship is glaringly obvious. 'They/their' . . . . minds closed, live in fear, no connection to ULC, minds of a 3rd grader, homophobic, hating, rage, trolls, bigotry . . . . the list goes on.
Only simple fools make all-inclusive statements like yours when describing a large group. You've likely not taken a poll, nor interviewed; nor have reliable statistics in support of your absurd, false and inaccurate descriptions of the 'bible thumpers'.
Basically, most of what you've said are LIES. In my 82 years of being associated with 'bible thumpers, MOST don't hate people; don't live in fear; are not homophobic nor bigoted. Many of us though, DO hate what God hates: the lifestyles, behavior and attitudes of sinful people.
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Ilmenheru Terikson
So now you re saying you are 82 years old? I mean I dont think that is going to help get you treated like any less of a raving looney tune around here. But it does explain the lack of viable grey matter between your ears as it has all died away decades ago.
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flugo
'ill turkey': You'd appear less immature, less ignorant, and less irrelevant if you had squarely addressed my main points.
You instead, avoided the issues and majored on the non-essentials. Sorry for your embarrassment. -
Ilmenheru Terikson
Flugo, seeing as you are a trash troll unworthy of civility, and are the most openly rude poster on these forums incapable of even using a posters name, you likely are also so demented you cant grasp why you are the one always inherently in the wrong.
When you can post in a civil and respectful manner, remembering that as a deranged old person you are only and ever a subordinate here to the actual ministers in good standing, then maybe your nonsense will warrant something of a response.
Until then I will just keep making a mockery of you and your hate speech and laugh at a pathetic old person who would shrink away in fear at every person of color, every gay couple, and spew only hate at innocent children because they dont conform to your goat herders fantasies.
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flugo
'ill turkey': Many times you used the terms 'always, only, ever, and every' in your obtuse diatribe. It's very unscholarly; a subnormal use of the English language; and symptomatic of a personality disorder. Ref: outofthefog.website
These are termed 'blanket generalizations', 'false absolutism', 'exaggerations that are rarely factual'.
Many contributors of thid site are mature enough to stick to the subject with objectivity and integrity. Your brand of blather is an embarrassment.
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Ilmenheru Terikson
You only embarrass yourself as always flugo. When you will grasp until you can keep a civil tongue nothing you say matters?
You do not step into someones home, throw a tantrum, start a fight, and then demand people answer your mad rant rather then treat you like a madman deserving only of scorn and ridicule.
You do not have points, not ever Flugo. And until you can cease with name calling, and engage as a member of a secular ministry rather then a insular zealot who is an enemy of all that is good and right in this universe, you should just accept you will be treated as the pos troll you are here.
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Ilmenheru Terikson
Hey Flugo, its your God here. No I dont hate what you hate, but I do hate those who say they hate what I hate, or any mortal who thinks they know what I think.
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flugo
'ill turkey': As a mortal, I don't have to THINK what God hates. It's in plain black and white in Psalm 7:11, Proverbs 6:19,Psalm 11:5, 5:5, 10:31.
In fact Romans 1:18 and John 3:36 suggest the wrath of God is presently hanging over the evil doers, rejectors of Jesus.
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Ilmenheru Terikson
You cant even seem to spell God right.
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Ilmenheru Terikson
Anyone espousing insular attitudes is pure evil, plain and simple.
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John Norris Campbell
Said the 'all inclusive' grand shamann of the universe...What ever happened to "do what thy whilt ,shalll be the whole of the law'???...Exactly WHO makes you the keeper of "the Gate"??? Grab a couple of Red Bulls and get back to me.
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Ealdormon Piparskeggr Robinson
I guess Anita (my wife) and I are an extreme anomaly then. 2 February was the 43rd anniversary of us becoming a couple, and this coming 26 June will make 39 years wed. We never had children, my wife is not really the motherly type, but we do make good as uncle and aunt.
However, I can see your point, as I am the only one of my parents 4 children who has not been divorced. We all married in 1982.
My brother split with his wife after 23 years, has been living with a woman married to another man the past 15.
The older of my sisters has been hitched 3 times, swears never again. Her 3 children from the 1st marriage turned out to be adults of whom I am proud.
My youngest sister did remarry the same fellow after a 5-year hiatus. Again, 3 children who turned out to be people of whom I am proud.
I am in the camp that thinks a child does best under the care of a stable, loving couple, whoever they are, but there are definitely a lot of folks out there who are good people, who grew up in single parent homes.
Like anything with humans, no one solution fits.
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Rebecca L Tice
There was a time I would have gone ballistic over this headline. I was taught by those on WAVA radio [Washington DC Area] that homosexuals would teach the children to be homosexual... and they would abuse them sexually and teach them this was right.
Since then I have started studying the Bible for myself. I learned that even Jesus talked about the eunuch.... and the woman at the well who was a wicked Samaritan.... and Jesus didn't say a foul thing one about either of them... my church would have... but not Jesus.
When Jesus was asked about marriage... and if a woman would recognize her husband... or her husband's brother who took her in when her husband passed, as required by Jewish tradition... as her husband.... and Jesus told them... in Heaven none of that matters.
Jesus was still fighting questions about the legality of divorce.... No one asked him about the eunuchs and if they should be adopting unwanted children.
Jesus didn't teach us to hate gay people... I don't see it anywhere in the New Testament..... and Ham did get on the Arc.... and God could have drown Ham before he said something to Noah while Noah was naked... getting cursed... and bring on the first homosexual type homosexual event after Sodom. God must have allowed Ham to be on the Arc.
I use to be all ballistic about gays and children.... I admit I was brainwashed.
The church should stop teaching hate..... 3 John 1 tells us not to teach hate or tell lies in the church. Maybe causing hatred is how some bullies keep their pulpit.
https://forums.somd.com/threads/3-john-1-a-bully-with-a-pulpit.369645/
Thanks for letting me voice my opinion.... nothing to see here... just kindness spilling over.....
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Brian Scott Hoff
I am not a believer but I appreciate that you took the time to think harder about your opinions and find evidence that was meaningful to you which helped you to grow in your opinions.
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Hannah Connors
What a lovely sentiment. I would love to see more people like yourself taking the time to open their minds up and educate themselves. I am not a proponent of Christianity and admittedly have little knowledge of the Bible. It has always stunned me how hateful many Christian followers are as it seems to directly defy what I (very simply) understand to be Jesus' message of love. It gives me hope for humanity that you have found compassion where there was once fear. This is true courage. Brava, Rebecca!
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Stanley Alan Marchand
Are Christian adoption agencies within their rights to refuse" same sex prospective parent's, adoption services", not being a lawyer I couldn't say. But if the question is Can a same sex parents household be a safe loving environment for kid's to grow up in. then yes I believe it can. Or do we have a right to try to change the law if it is against same sex parent's, yes I believe we do. Thank you ULC for bringing this to everyone's attention.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Although I'm not an attorney iether Stanley I do know that laws are not partial to religious organizations, but are the same for all (unless I missed something in my legal studies). You better ask Daniel Gray, to make sure. I think one or both of that child's parents is an attorney.
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John Norris Campbell
What an awsome opportunity to indoctrinate a young mind to go against nature. This is exactly why...here in the meth world, we buy children to manufacture drugs. While "normal" society is against this practice, why exactly do we collectivly adhere to supposedly "civilized"' society's idea of what is right and what is wrong? Here in the realm of "Satan" there is no right and wrong.The boys we buy are taught a profitable skill and the young girls are used for the only reason they exist....to please the men they serve.If you disagree with this premise you must be an adherrent to some kind of established "religion" that has absoulty no bearing on reality. What you "think" is right is only subjective.When one is part of the "all knowing Universe" all bets are off when it comes to human Morality...which is a totaly human construct of right and wrong.....after all...where EXACTLY did you get YOUR IDEA of right and wrong?? Mao., Stalin, and Hilter had their own ideas of right and wrong...and they were very SUCCESSFUL convincing their paticular populations of what is right and what is wrong..to the tune of hundreds of millions of their OWN populations dying from either famine, war ,or just outright GENOCIDE. Bottom Line? If a couple of men what to indoctrinate a small boy into the pleasures of sodomy...small price to pay for the fall of human civilazition. Enjoy the cup of DEBAUCHERY while Ya'll still can....Because JESUS CHRIST Is coming...and it matters not exactly WHAT YOU BELIEVE in. Pray to Buddah, Muhammed. or the Elephant king...but guess what? EVERY tongue will confess the Lord Jesus upon His arrival
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Brien
Mao, Stalin, Hitler, and John. All the same brainwashing, done the same way. Fear and hatred without one ounce of fact.
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John Norris Campbell
Thanks for your response Brien, im my experience, if one does not stand for 'something' they will fall for anything. And in my humble opinion, that includes "being children of the universe"---not one ounce of fact to back that claim up...(without dropping some hallucinogenic). I'm not tyrying to 'brainwash' anyone, but would rather share with others the reason for the peace that I now possess, a peace that surpasses all understanding. Sounds horrible right? I fear no one and hate no one...(anymore) since coming to the Truth. It's called progressive revelation....the more I learn, the more tolerant I become to the humans I must share this realm with. The men I mentioned above were all secular dictators and eradicated all and any form of religion in their countries, which continues to this very day in China. Some sources say Hitler was a Roman Catholic, but as the RCC is a pagan enitiy, they also can be counted as being secular--meaning they mix all the world's religions into their own, without rhyme or reason--except to subjugate this realm's peoples and resourses.
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Ilmenheru Terikson
JNC its pretty clear you are anything but peaceful. You constantly spout hate, fear monger. Oh and cling to actual treasonous ideas like Drumpf being the rightful president of the U.S. and some kind of chosen one of your god.
You clearly do not understand what secular is. You can not be a secular dictator, the two concepts are in direct opposition. Secularism means people are free to explore and believe as they like as long as it causes no harm to others. Insularism by its nature is dictatorship. It is tyranny.
The moment I tell you to be silent about your faith and you keep speaking it, you commit an act that justifies ending your life. It really is that simple. Hence why you if you go back some months to the article about a christian missionary trying to reach a certain island and being killed, you will find just about every ULC minister applauded the natives killing that POS waste of human life who tried to violate their homeland and force christianity upon them.
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John Norris Campbell
Damn! You are too easy to shoot down with your dumass remarks...SECULARISM: "the separation of the state from religiuos beliefs and instituations"...and that was the defination from the Oxford dicitionary....yea little buddy I'm gonna have to go with THAT definition instead of your 'Mountain Dew' induced keyboard warrior mode...SORRY!!! I mean your grand master of the universal shamman council...BTY...If I join your cult can I get a really cool cape?? Ya know? like the Catholics get??
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Hannah Connors
Mock everyone else, as is your right, and mine. Your particular cult worships a ridiculous storybook that has been edited multiple times to control the masses for political gain. The supernatural and whimsical stories of the Bible are just a silly security blanket meant to placate scared humans who cannot handle the mystery of life and discover it's meaning for themselves. Cuddle up to your blankie of hate and ignorance, and leave the other humans alone please.
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Brian Scott Hoff
Hey... John. You gonna be OK? Being triggered is stressful. You should attempt to find a safe space away from folks that tolerate other folks. You might want to go to a place where everyone basically dislikes all the folks that are different from them and let's them know it. Doesn't that sound like more fun than hanging out here where people listen to each other & try to lean something even when it's different than what we think is normal?
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Brien
If what someone stands for leads to fear, hate, and ignorance without one shred of verifiable fact, then perhaps they should fall. No one is telling you how to live or who to love. Just what qualifies you to make those judgements for others? If all you have is your personal belief in whatever mythical being you believe in, then you have no facts to back up any of the ignorant claims that you and others like you profess as truth. There is simply way to much ignorance going around. It is time for it to fall away. We are simply outgrowing it. Peace ✌☮
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Nora Nancy Karshbaum
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
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Tim Martin Beresford
Bravo my friend . Bravo . A sane mind I see . Here's my post .Yep it's a evil world . This should not be promoted . Don't give me the love story . It's sodomites loving sodomites simple stuff . Repent and lock that demon in the trunk . Do not be a Shepard who lives in a tree when the wolves come for the sheep . The sodomites are trying to increase their numbers with the false falicy of love . Come down from the tree with the whip of Christ .
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Brian Scott Hoff
Wow
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Douglas Robert Spindler
It’s about time. For years gay couples have been ordering babies online. You either provide the egg and/or the sperm and can hire a women in Nepal for $20,000 (USD) will be the segregate. Once the baby is born you pick-up your order.
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Robert J Giammarco
While there is no doubt that a child needs a STABLE environment with a mother and father is always best. What about the child who has this, yet is being abused by those parents? Whether one, or from both? A child needs safety, and a strong, stable relationship with a person they can trust., IMHO. Whether man/women, man/man,women/women. If they can give that child a stable, loving, caring, protective environment, that would be ideal, IMHO, that child is better off in a home, rather than on the streets, and being subjected to drugs, rape, sex trafficting, etc. I'd rather see a child in a safe, loving place regardless of which sex cares for them, than be treated as trash. GOD help them all, rather than see what has been happening to children for decades. We all need to show we care, and to love them.
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John P Maher
R. J. GIAMMARCO. ! COULD NOT HAVE EXPRESSED it ANY BETTER, THANK YOU !
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I emphatically agree with Robert J Giammarco on this one.
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Ealdormon Piparskeggr Robinson
Spot on Robert!
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MIKE
A child needs to experience the male and female roles in a relationship not male on male or female on female. To raise a child in a same sex relationship is not proving a young mind with a healthy Christian morality. No judgment intended here. Just an opinion. There is nothing wrong with people loving one another, it becomes a sin if that love becomes sexual. How is a young mind supposed to develop under those conditions. When the child is influenced but a same sex relationship, he/she grows up thinking that is normal or natural; sorry but it isn't.
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Nancy E. Kleinsmith
We have evolved as a society from treating homosexuality as a mental illness, to educating society that being gay isn't a choice, it is who that child is when they are born. What is most important is the love and nurturing and healthy boundaries a child grows and develops with, not who is raising them. We have so many single grandparents raising their grandkids and so many single parents raising their children in as stable an environment as possible. There was a time in our society that was frowned upon and judged. I believe we the issue is treating gay and lesbian people the same way we treat heterosexuals. This becomes a non issue when all people are treated equally. God created all of us. To my knowledge he doesn't make mistakes. It's the man-made laws hiding behind religion that have created the divide and separation between people. God bless all people who are willing and able to adopt and love another human being.
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MIKE
First let me clarify something. I am not against the freedom of sexual choice in adults. I have friends an family who are members of the gay community. I have no problem with their choice. And Yes, there are individuals who are born in the wrong gender body due to a biological error . There are also individuals who have been sexually abused at an early age that have caused them to identify as homosexual. When it's biological, there's not much choice, but when this "decision" is brought on by abuse or indoctrination, the story is different. My concern is the " natural" development of a young influential mind exposed to a nontraditional situation.
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Brian Scott Hoff
I think that the idea in which people "choose" to be gay due to abuse or something traumatic is a very dubious theory. On top of that is the idea that living / being raised by a gay couple would influence my sexuality.. that seems even more unlikely. What does seem likely is that we have no idea how many people are actually gay. There's plenty of evidence indicating that "coming out" may not be a great experience. The possibility of being shunned by family, friends, employers, strangers... My own opinion is that there are more people than we think there are. Seems likely that if you were raised in a gay family you would be much more comfortable admitting it. But I cannot see much evidence suggesting you can be influenced to become gay. I also believe there are levels of "straightness". Just like all of nature there is variation in everything. I recall a childhood friend who seemed very comfortable having / showing his erection to other friends. I cannot have an erection if a guy is within sight of me. Both he & I were pretty normal in regards to our attraction to females. He's as straight as I am. We just seem wired a little differently. I have no reason to doubt there is a range of sexual attraction. But I do not believe people are "influenced" to be gay in any significant numbers.
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Brien
Your did try to state yourself well, and it is appreciated, however my question to you concerns your use of the word sin. That is yet another Christian judgment not based on any fact whatsoever. I do not begrudge you for your opinion, I just take exception to your judgment. You do understand that not everyone agrees with the christian/catholic/jewish/muslim religion right? From my standpoint and personal opinion organized religion is just superstitious brainwashing. I know gay people that take exception of MY opinion of organized religion and it makes me wonder something. Just what are your thoughts of a gay couple that DEFENDS the very religion that is so often used to persecute them? What would be your thoughts on that same couple taking their adopted family to church? You see, the picture gets a little cloudy at this point. Food for thought....Peace ✌☮
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A James Baird
Interesting opinion. While there are a plethora of things to respond to, I believe that I'll just stick with the "normal and natural."
Taking "normal" to be synonymous with "mode," or that which appears most often in any given set of data, then it's true that LBGTQ+ cannot be the mode, as our species could not then survive.
However, "natural" is a horse of a different colour. Throughout the natural world, there are many species who mate for life, for example wolves, and some of the great raptors. In each and every one of those species, there are occasional same-sex pairings.
If one grants that God is incapable of error (not my opinion, but we'll go with it for now), then it follows, as the night, the day, that same-sex pairings are both "Natural" and "God-Blessed." In addition, if the sire and dam of a cub are killed, the other wolves of the pack (including those same-sex pairings) will immediately take over the raising of the cubs. To the best of my knowledge, and here, I'll happily defer to a qualified biologist, none of those cubs grew up confused as to how they should find their life-mates.
Finally, the last phycological article that I read about adopted children in same-sex parent homes stated that those children were as well or better prepared for adulthood -- balanced, performing to the best of their abilities, and (surprise, surprise) more accepting and understanding of everyone around them.
Love, respect, acceptance.
James
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Rev Ned
Agreed!
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Thom
It is wrong to let a same sex couple adopt a child. Children should be adopted by a traditional family - a husband and wife - and nothing else. All we are doing is warping the minds of children and they will be opening the child up to ridicule he/she will never, ever forget.
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Dave J
And when the parents get divorced, then the children (adopted or biological) should be taken from them and placed in foster care, right? Because they don't have a mother and a father in stable relationship any more, right? That's where this leads, Thom.
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Thom
If parents get divorced they don't take the child away? Unless the parents are totally messed up and beating them they don't. Instead of going overboard look at the facts and no made up extremes. I know of many kids who were adopted by a traditional family and the parents divorced years later. Guess what happened, the mother got the kids and the father/dad had to pay child support. Now days it can be different where the father/dad could get the child because the mother does not want it.
By the way, I am adopted and it was not a great family in the long run. No one was divorced but it may have been better if they were in the long run. But, this was the 60's and they did not do the same vetting they do today. As for kids adopted into same sex couples, some come out normal and other come up with a strange though pattern.
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Rebecca L Tice
Look.... I married a man and found out he was happy to lay with a man.... in the biblical sense....
I went to my pastor.... who told me I made my bed and now I had to lay in it.... poetic.... right?
I stayed in that marriage and luckily.... he was the kind of man who didn't have a problem with women.... and I had three children.... two daughters and a son.
The church kept telling me I had to stay.... until I had my son.... and then they told me to leave. I tried to leave him... but I didn't have the money to leave.... I had to consider the food and laundry involved in leaving with three babies... all in diapers. I got no help from the church.... none.... and they now said that I was wrong for staying.... when they were the ones who told me I had to stay.
The church would not help me.....
How was that good for my children?
I gave my son to my parents.... so that my Dad... a Christian... a Deacon in the Southern Baptist Church.... could raise my son... in exchange... I had to stay away... and I had to allow my ex to raise my daughters... because after all... I couldn't be trusted with raising my own children.... I was an insane bible thumper who couldn't work [daycare] and I was hated in the church because of my "inconvenient" marriage.
The church told me I was the one who was wrong for marrying this man and having his children... no just one church.... but a series of churches.... I kept moving to find a church that would accept me....
Was I some kind of Jezebel? I certainly felt like one... I stuck to my guns... I kept Jesus as my Savior... One of my daughters still loves me.... the other doesn't and I have seen or talked to my son in years.....
Get off your holier than thou bible thumping pillar..... the children are never protected.... and some gay people are not as exclusionary or mean as bigheaded all knowing "so called Christians".
I know what I'm talking about... been there bought the t-shirt.... I can tell you.... it is not good for the children.... and you sound like a bigot.
TIA for your response. I am not a Jezebel....
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Brian Scott Hoff
Wow... sorry that happened. Religion & Church... I'm wondering if they create more family problems than being raised by homosexual couples?
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Rebecca L Tice
All that matters is the welfare of the child.
Is it better for a child to live in a home with two people who are married in the eyes of the church.... but who abuse their children verbally or physically?
Is it better for a child to be raised in a home where the adornment God chose for each and every individual is used as a weapon to be brandished against them.
The child will be what the child will be.... environment only affects life for as long as the environment exists.... look at me for example... I was raised Southern Baptist.... and now I am calling them out for being exclusionary.
Is the requirement that they be of male and female to be married going to assure that the child they rear will be loved and respected?
Nope.... The parents only have full control until the child gets around other human beings.... the world is raising our babies.... it's just the way it is.... tv... radio.... internet.... they are all windows that affect the thoughts of our children...
Do we require those goody two shoes better because we are male and female married by the church to bring their babies up in the light of God???
Nope... they can raise their babies any way they want to because they are a "normal" married couple..... like the good parents that raised the "son of sam".
Grow up people... get with the times... good hypocrites abort babies every day.... and then tell everyone else they are the only one qualified to raise babies.....
Who says?
Thanks for reading....
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
And what warped belief system do you believe in that dictates that, Thom. You won't find much support for those beliefs within the ULC. Us ULC ministers are even big into performing gay weddings. I've attended atleast a few of them, and had a really fabulous time.
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Thom
I guess the warped belief from being brought up as a Roman Catholic. Granted, a lot of priests are gay and won't come out but hey, their life. I don't perform gay weddings, not my thing. And guess what, it is my choice to do or not to do so.
I am glad you have attended, performed, been a part of, whatever gay weddings. If that is your thing then well, be fabulous.
You see, it is your choice. Just as it is mine.
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Ilmenheru Terikson
This post makes it very clear you are not a minister of the ULC or if you are, are not one in good standing. As you are openly admitting to not seeing all people as equal children of this universe endowed with the freedom to love and marry as they choose.
I genuinely hope the ULC admin look into your ministry credentials and revoke them.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Thom, I was also raised as a Roman Catholic, right here in Galvesto, Texas. I attended St. Mary's and St. Patrick's elementary schools for six years, and thank the Goddess I was able to get expelled from both of them. I even was an altar boy at St. Patrick's. And I'm sorry we didn't have any priests who were gay. However, one of my mother's first cousins, Rev. Deacon John Pistone was back then,and still is the Deacon at St. Mary's Cathedral Basilica, here. And he and his wife are both totally straight. I was even once Galveston chapter president of Victorious Missionaries, which was founded by a Catholic Oblate missionary priest, and is based at Shrine Of Our Lady Of The Snows in Belleville, Illinois. And despite all that (and a lot more) I am proud to be a Pagan!!! And belong to a Pagan life path called Wicca!!! Within which I am known as a natural, eclectic, solitairy. And there's not a prejudiced bone in my body. I love gay people, and think they are wonderful!!! I'm all for gay marriage, and gay parenting!!! Wow, it sounds like I fit right in with the ULC. Maybe someday you'll join us, or we won't hear from you anymore. I'd welcome you to the club, but have a strong feeling you won't be staying long.
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Brian Scott Hoff
Thom... I wish you could read your post in the manner we see it. "A lot of priests are gay but...". Do you not see that you just said you don't support gays but you're pretty passive about the Priests who are supposedly leaders within the religion you choose to follow? The same leaders that teach you that supporting gays is wrong? That's not a symptom of the problem in your eyes? Which choice are you supporting? That your church tolerates leaders who do not follow the teachings? That you actually do support your church despite the obvious problems within it thus you shall not be supportive of gay life? Please be clear about what you are saying.
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Rebecca L Tice
Might I suggest that you go back and look at the membership of the first church in Corinth..... think that church [that met in a brothel] was full of goodie two shoes like yourself Thom? The first members of the church included male prostitutes employed by the temple that rented the room to the first Christian Church. They were male employees.... servicing male worshipers of the goddess of the temple..... get where I'm going? Jesus would accept a male prostitute.... why can't you?
Plain and simple... the church taught you exclusionary hate... it's easier to preach than love.....
Jesus is all about inclusion.... love... healing.... sure He got angry.... when the man was ripping off the worshippers by running a money exchange and requiring the worshippers to participate. Jesus had a temper tantrum in the temple because of them... but when Matthew... a tax guy who made his living ripping people off... came across the path of Jesus.... Jesus not only welcomed him.... He made Matthew and Apostle.
Get with it Thom.... hate is not cool.
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Brien
Tom, please state your reasoning on why this is wrong. If possible, please include statistics from reputable sources that show harm to the adopted children. Do not include religious belief as religion is an opinion and not fact. Refer to my challenge above. You do have a right to an opinion, but so far you state opinion not fact.
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Thom
My reasoning is personal. My reasoning is seeing how children of same sex couples are bullied in school. And, please don't tell me kids are so understanding and accepting. Kids are some of the cruelest individuals I know when it comes to some situations. As for statistics I am not going to do this because if I did put something up you would scream it was a conservative site and not worth looking at.
As for me personally, I don't care if someone is gay. It is their thing and not mine. I don't perform gay ceremonies and will not. I think I have 3 friends who are gay, don't really know and don't really care. I don't go out looking for gay friends because, it is, again, not my thing. So, I am not going to jump on here and say, well I have X number of gay friends so..... Who cares, you would not. So, you do your thing and I will do mine. You live your life and I will live mine. Is that so difficult? Or, does it bother you someone does not agree with your views?
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Ilmenheru Terikson
Its not that you disagree, its that you are in clear opposition, and actively deny equal treatment to them, while claiming the mantle of being a minister of the ULC.
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Brien
i understand that you have a personal opinion and by all means you are entitled to it. But you made a blanket statement as fact and I was just inquiring as to your sources for the statement. You used a very broad stroke yet I am unable to find any correlating data to support it. I do not begrudge you your opinion, but when making a statement of opinion you should clarify that it is your own personal opinion. I never made any statement to suggest that you should perform any type of wedding. The labels that you use with contempt are just that, labels. Please, at least try to clarify your opinions from facts. I hope all is well with you and yours.....Peace
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There are thousands of homeless children waiting for a home, many locked in cages at the southern border. Any takers ? All you need is Love, passing your background checks, and filing out the adoption paperwork. Go with God, save a life, or two, or more ! :-) Namaste.