There are a lot of religious and moral views on abortion. Pope Francis characterized a strong pro-life stance when he said, "It is necessary to reaffirm our solid opposition to any direct offense against life, especially when innocent and defenseless, and the unborn child in its mother's womb is the quintessence of innocence."
Several religious denominations, even in Christianity, object to the notion that life begins at conception. There is some Biblical basis for this, as in the book of Exodus it is shown that a fetus does not have the same legal status as a person (chapter 21:22-23). If a man causes a pregnant woman to miscarry, he must pay a fine, while the killing of a full person entails much more severe punishment.
Ministers have conversed with their parishioners on this political subject because it is also a moral and religious issue. When we posed the question on Facebook, we got a litany of responses from ULC ministers and wanted to explore some of what may be influencing their opinions. Lately, there has been controversy following the release of undercover videos showing Planned Parenthood (PP) representatives frankly discussing the sale of aborted fetuses. The underlying issues involved, abortion and fetal tissue research, are very difficult topics for ministers to face directly and consider entirely. Neither issue has a set of simple, clear, moral and ethical baselines upon which all people can absolutely and honestly come to complete agreement.
Roe v. Wade
In discussions since Roe v. Wade, the U.S. Supreme Court decision establishing a constitutional right of a woman to choose abortion, politicians on the left have used the mantra of keeping abortion "safe, legal and rare." The modern procedure is safe for the mother and legal throughout the country.
It is far from rare. One in three American women have made the decision to terminate pregnancy with abortion. Many people of a religious or conservative mindset cannot accept the ethics of permitting abortion, or, as they would frame it, "to stop a beating heart" as a last resort among "birth control" methods.
Even many people with religious objections, who consider the practice murder, acknowledge that it could be an undesirable last resort where the mother's life is in jeopardy if she carries the baby to term. Some also see abortion as "appropriate" in cases of incest or rape, which returns to the moral calculus that equates "choosing" the process that led to pregnancy (engaging in sexual intercourse) as essentially invalidating a woman's right to choose to end pregnancy.
Another Side of Planned Parenthood
As this topic is discussed, there is sometimes a failure to acknowledge the range of health services that Planned Parenthood (PP) provides to millions of Americans.
One in five women in the U.S. has visited a Planned Parenthood clinic for a range of health services, including:
Contraception
Sexually transmitted disease testing and screenings
Pap tests
Breast exams
Abortions
In fact, the vast majority of services provided at PP are not abortion, which makes up just 3% of the work done there. Furthermore, congress has allocated funds towards fetal tissue research that will be spent on the practice regardless of what happens to PP.
De-funding the organization could stop PP from donating to biotech research, but it wouldn't slow down the practice generally speaking. It would also have the effect of making breast exams, pap tests, and STD screenings, again 97% of what PP does, incredibly difficult to find for low income women.
Similarly, a side that is typically left out of the opposition to fetal tissue research following legal abortion is the biomedical record of success in pioneering advanced technologies that fight disease and add to human longevity and health potential.
Ethics of the Videotape
A final question of ethics unique to the PP undercover video scandal is less dramatic, but of importance in discussing an important issue that most people carries moral weight.
The conversation caught on tape between the medical director of PP and the fake biotech representative is shocking. It discusses the handling of fetal remains with a graphic, yet cold and distant tone. Doctors regularly deal with things that the average person is only confronted with in times of emergency and fear, and it is difficult for the rest of us to imagine bringing up this sort of topic while enjoying wine at a restaurant for good reason.
A discussion involving the gruesome details of harvesting organs from a deceased voluntary donor would seem equally shocking. While some people object to donating their own organs for a variety of reasons (including some religious considerations), nobody really has any problem with the practice generally speaking, and many doctors wouldn't think
twice about discussing cutting up someone's corpse to that end. The major difference is of course that adults must consent to their organs being donated or their bodies being used for science. An unborn child or fetus cannot consent to anything.
There is also the issue of some news sources editing the tape to make it appear as though the doctors are profiting from the exchange and discussing the prices of sale, which would be illegal. A viewing of the complete footage shows that the discussion of cost is only in regards to storing and transporting the remains, since PP can legally recoup these costs under federal law. PP would not make any money from donating the remains to research.
The conversation on abortion is delicate and needs to come from a place of honesty and respect. To some, abortion is murder. To others, a tool of family planning that takes advantage of the techniques of modern medicine. There are also plenty of views somewhere in the middle. Let us know where you stand.
Sources: Washington Post, Huffington Post, Christian Science Monitor
233 comments
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Tom
I must confess that I am of two minds on the subject of abortion. As a clergy person, I am opposed to abortion with certain exceptions. I support abortion in the cases of rape and incest, which to me are synonymous. I also support abortion in cases where the life of the mother or the child are at peril. I full well realize that even this position is unacceptable to some people of faith. I respect their felling as I hope they respect mine.
On the other hand, I fully support a woman's right to make a choice when it comes to decisions affecting her own body. We do live in a secular society that has legalized the choice of an abortion and regardless of our individual religious beliefs, we must honor that choice.
I am learning that there are many religious people who, while they claim to be anti-abortion, in fact, they are basically pro-birth. The want a child born, but not fed, not housed, not educated, and not cared for. The proof of that is the number of "Christians" who do not want their tax dollars going to the care of children. In their view, if you are pre-born, you are a champ. If you are pre-school, you are a burden on society and basically screwed. To me, that is not Christian!
I would suggest an alternative to this thinking. Instead of railing against abortion and calling women who seek them as "baby killers", why not take the resources of the churches they belong to and offer to assist women who feel they are sufficiently financially challenged and think that abortion is the only way out?
I do this. I have offered to financially help several women in hopes of preventing an abortion. I am proud to say my offers have been accepted. Forgive me a moment of immodesty, I am putting my money where my mouth is and it is paying off.
To be honest, there are some women who decide on an abortion for the plain reason that they made a mistake and do not wish to bear and raise children. Yes, they should have thought about that before the results of the pregnancy test became known, before they said yes to having unprotected sex, before a lot of other reasons as well. In spite of that, I still respect their choice to terminate. They may not belong to my church, they may not have the faith I have, so who am I to judge? They will be judged by a much higher authority than me (or you for that matter). In the meantime, my Christian ethic says offer to help. That is the least I can do.
As far as using fetal organs for scientific research goes, I have no problem with that. I honestly believe that no one is crating fetuses just to have their aborted organs used for other purposes. If those organs can serve a greater purpose other than to just be aborted, amen.
I respect all of the opinions expressed on these blogs, even those that I cannot agree with. I take comfort I. The fact t that my opinions will also be respected, even if some my disagree with my approach. Blessings to all.
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revbarbarajadams
In many of your comments, I agree. When it comes to rape and incest or the life of the mother, sometimes tough choices have to be made.
However, my mother gave me good advice when I was young. She said not to have any more children than I could afford. If everyone aspired to that, there would be fewer people who didn't want to pay for other people's children.
If it is a right to have as many children as we wish in this society, then it should be an obligation to personally support all of those children. As it is, most people who pay taxes in this country DO support children by paying for schools, school lunches, school buses, etc.
But as a person who will be creeping up on retirement soon, I think over the years I have contributed my fair share to other people's children through taxes AND charities that I support.
If a person decides to have 10 children, then they should be able to support those 10 children without the help of the government or society. If a single person decides to have children, then that person should be able to support those children without the help of the government or society. Personal choices are for the individual, not the collective. If I don't have a say in your personal choice, then I shouldn't have to financially support your decisions.
As harsh as that may sound, when the world becomes a place where no one has to be responsible for their decisions, it shouldn't be surprising that the people paying the bill for those decisions will decide to cut them off. And who suffer? Those who had no choice in being born.
Our adoption processes are archaic and most couples will tell you that they are a money pit. Instead of paying for a child's daily needs or putting money away for college, they are paying for the privilege of being parents. Personally, I think that after an extensive background investigation, children should be given to potential parents free of charge or with a stipend to help them put them through school. That may be naive, I realize.
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Russell Boyd
Well said
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Rev. Cari Evans
Yes, Very well said
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Paul
I'm very glad to read your comments. Both the first post by Tom and the reply by Reverend Barbara.
The problem as I see it not just from the religious perspective is that just based on costs to society alone and the potential parent.
It is much less expensive to provide free abortions, but it is also taking away the potential of a new person. As I see a fetus as a living thing, but not quite yet human. It has the potential to be human, but to be human is not just being alive.
I would argue that a person that is brain dead is a living thing, but they are not quite human also. They lack what makes us human, to act humane towards others and life, To be able to grow and learn, to be a part of society.
There are some of us that are not quite what could be considered an adult, even if they are forty or more years old. These people frighten children, and some of us adults as well. As they are so developmentally disabled, that they need caretakers for their whole life.
When a Child is born, they basically have the ability to recognize their mothers voice, as their hearing developed shortly before they were born.
Basically what I'm getting at is what many refer to as a soul, this is something that makes us each unique humans, and when we do not have this we are a living thing, but not quite human. This is something that has yet to be figured out for a computer, as they are not yet self aware. It is the fact that some living things are sentient, and others are not. One way is for a creature to look at a mirror and know that it is their reflection, where something is not if they think that it is another of their own kind.
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Rev Liz
I respect your post. You have stated your opinion so beautifully.You and I have similar views on this subject. I am not pro-abortion and never have been. However, I am pro-choice and always have been. As you stated, we live in a secular society and a very diverse world. The separation of church and state indicates that one's religious convictions should not infringe on the legal rights of others.
I remember the days of my youth, when young women, desperate at finding themselves pregnant, would go to any number of dangerous methods to be rid of the burden they did not intend. I know many would think "she made her choice to have sex, now she has to pay the piper". Well, NO! The laws now allow one to make her own choice. One is also free to NOT to have an abortion. If it goes against your grain, then by golly....go ahead and bear the child. I respect those who would never consider an abortion, but your religious convictions may not be mine....Let God do his job when the time comes. (I would like to add to your comment tho, that not all pregnancies result from unprotected sex....there have been many an Oops! even using one or more methods of BC)
Now, having said all that....I do think certain restrictions should apply. Women generally know they are pregnant by the second month (with rare exceptions) and should be able to make the decision by the end of the 4th month...or mid 5th at the latest. Beyond that, you are looking at the point of viability outside the womb...(however fragile, and with the potential for lifelong medical problems). I would hope a woman would terminate before that time.
As for the PP videos...it has been said that they were "doctored" to appear worse than they are. If that is truly the case, I am all for salvaging and using the fetal tissue for whatever medical use they can be used to advance medical science. The cost of procurement, preservation and shipping of fetal tissue is something that needs to be offset somehow....if that makes it look like they are "selling body parts", so be it. PP does so much good for so many, it would be a travesty to defund them.
WE need to stop making such harsh judgements. Especially in regards to things we may not have full understanding of. if you believe in God, then let God have the final say.
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Joseph Blair
I find it difficult to fathom how easy it is for liberal thinkers to justify the butchering of fetuses and pre term infants, yet if the same we're being done to puppies, kittens or any other animal, they would all have a fit. What a sad society we live in when the lives of animals are deemed more sacred than those of unborn children.
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Liz
Yes, it is often difficult to escape our own views and examine others without bias.
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Rev Liz
I find it equally difficult to fathom how a man....one who has never known what it is to find himself in such a position....can be so quick to have all the answers. It seems, too, the the most vocal opponents are male.
Once again, I say,WE need to stop making such harsh judgements. Especially in regards to things of which we may not have a full understanding. If you believe in God, then let God have the final say. You needn't get involved.
And BTW, when a woman choses to terminate her pregnancy (operative word; HER), she is doing it to her own body...not some puppy, kitten or other animal. HER OWN.
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Nancy
Thank you for your comment, Liz. It does seem to be a majority of men who are the opponents. It is a personal decision that a woman must make, and decision that is between that woman and God. It is all a challenging situation.
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Minister Carey
I thank you for your comment Liz. I am often puzzled by those who hold the belief that the Creator of All, (who may be called God, Allah, Buddha, etc.), is the only ONE who holds the seat of authority for judgement and punishment, yet they will judge and mete out punishment if possible. A fetus (a potential man/living soul, female or male) is alive, but so is an egg (a potential man/living soul, female or male) and a sperm (a part of a potential man/living soul, female or male). Why is it without judgement for a female to allow any of her living eggs to pass unfertilized every month (a potential human not given the chance to be brought to full term) and a male to eject his living sperm with no intention to hit an egg every....hmm!, whenever (a potential human not given the chance to be brought to full term)? These tissues (eggs, sperm, fetuses) are designed to create a potential human being if and when the bearer chooses to bring forth a fully viable human. But it is the Creator, and the Creator only, who determines whether or not a fertilized zygote (potential human being) will be given the breath of life which, at that time, allows another to be a real live human earthling. A living soul. That's right yawl, no breath, no life on earth. Females carry the eggs, males carry the sperm. So who created and carries the breath? Who is really behind the human psyche? Who is really the master mind behind the human mind? Who really calls the shots regardless of what a human wants? When someone dies (regardless of the circumstances) it is said that it is God's will. So when a potential human being is formed in the womb is it not God's will whether she/he will live or not? We are all inspired by the Creator (God) no matter what our intended actions are. And we are all given the gift of free will, except for the last word (the Creator's). If the Creator (God) ain't dead, why do people hold the need to project their will on other humans and their Creator (God) given rights? Do we really trust (have faith) that the Creator (God) is in control?
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Mark
Tom, I agree with most of your positions and respect the ones that are not the same. I would like to see in addition to more post birth care and support, (adoptions, universal health care for low income etc) more effort on preventing pregnancies and thus the choice between an abortion or not. I really can not understand the use of fake science to discourage the use of highly effective contraceptives like IUDs. What would the abortion rate be if contraceptives were free and 100% available? If that would reduce unwanted pregnancies to a really low number than it will be easier to offer alternatives to the abortion. And I do not agree with the methods of eliminating abortion clinics. That will not eliminate abortions. It will just force women back to the back alley, coat hanger, life threatening market. Eliminate the demand, make them feel loved, supported and respected no matter their decision.
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Rev Liz
Bravo, Mark! Good points and well said. Alas! Some feel that birth control should be self-pay. And, abortion should be illegal. And we need to cut social programs. You make a good point that FREE (and easily accessed) birth control would significantly lower the rate of unwanted pregnancies. There is nothing I would like better than to see the very need for abortion to be...ah, terminated! Until then, safe and legal is the way to go.
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Rev. Xander Wholf Moonsinger
Most of our views are side by side, hand in hand. I do not believe the mother should risk her own life. And for a child of rape, how could the mother ever look at her own baby, every time she saw her child she would remember that day and thats just torturing the mother long after the initial trauma. Matters of incest are tricky but with the health complications it would make the child's life miserable so I understand abortion (even if I dont understand why someone would commit the initial act).
My biggest problem is the young ladies who use abortion as a form of birth control. There are so many options out there including the morning after pill which will prevent a pregnancy. Be smart and protect yourself if you dont want children, or if you feel that you cant support a child but refuse abortion, go to adoption. There are places that will set up a pregnant mother with 2 parents before the child is born so that your child will immediately go to a happy and healthy environment.
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Minister Cherry
Amen
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Rev Liz
Although I do agree that abortion should never be used as a method of BC, I also have doubts that there are many doing that. Adoption is a beautiful alternative to abortion but having said that, I remain a staunch supporter of safe and legal abortions. Free birth control for all would be a good start to lower the need for abortions. It would be a small price to pay for a better future for all of us!
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Alex
This is indeed a complex issue. With so many cultural influences, religious tenant's, scientfic analysis and conflicting opinions. All I can offer to this debate is this. One's relationship with God is their own. They must own it. And second. I have had only one person ever admit to me they had an abortion. Twice. And both times it was for birth control.
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Bill Robinson
I agree with you wholeheartedly! Yours is the true Christian approach. Thank you!
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Don
The subject of abortion is difficult but in the end it represents a good example of religion intruding into the private affairs of others. No religion should be able to force it's views and practices on others, and that is precisely the goal of some believers who assure us that they are in touch with God and he has told them to act on his behalf regarding this question. Curiously, he has told other believers something else. Since God seems to be perplexed, perhaps the best public policy would be to not have the government involved in a private matter.
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Stephen Fisher
Agreed!
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Paul
That leads into another thing, and that is if religion controls our lives completely, then we no longer would have free will. Without free will there would no longer be good or evil, as described so well many years ago by Zoroaster.
Basically, if their were no free will Christianity and other religions would not exist. As how could Jesus be a Savour if there are none to save?
In other words, this is an attempt by a religious group to negate themselves. Yet, they are not wise enough to even have this cross their minds...
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Reverend Jeane
I have never understood this concept of Life (actually referencing the soul) begins at conception. Really? If this is the case, then it would stand to reason that if an abortion happens, the soul would be killed, as that's the important distinction, right? We humans now have the power to kill off a soul? ?!?! I was not aware that that was possible--what POWER that gives us humans!
The problem with this reasoning is multi-faceted: 1) It conflates a human life with a soul--to my mind two linked but distinctly different things. 2) It gives us humans the power of God (and yes I capitalized that on purpose) to if not create, but certainly destroy, a soul. Yeesh! 3) If by willfully ending a life, we are extinguishing a soul, why aren't those vehemently anti-abortion also pacifists when it comes to war? Vehemently anti-capital punishment as well? 3) If we are in fact talking about the safety of the soul, not the health and well-being of the human parties involved, then we are most definitely encroaching in the territory of ministers, reverends, rabbis, imams etc.
And then it's a short slide to theocracy...
I've seen the raging argument on abortion develop over the last 40 years--first it was: Well, it shouldn't be a means of BC. Then: But of course we would exempt cases of rape and incest! Now: There should be no abortions, period. (They've done that in some South American countries, and now women are dying of ectopic pregnancies... )
It seems we are forgetting the basic humanity of ALL the parties involved. Not progress, in my mind.
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Frank Olvera (aka "The Christian Noob")
Is a fetus a person? Yes, it is.
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Don
Frank has spoken. All hail Frank.
Alas, Frank in his wisdom, such as it might be, has left no grounds for alternative viewpoints, something which is intolerable in a pluralistic society.
You can stop hailing Frank now.
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Gregory Highsmith (Greg)
Wow Don, just by your response and total disrespect for Franks view really says that everything you wrote above is garbage. Just curios on why his view is the only one you disrespect? He believes what he does and that's his RIGHT...
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Doug Barron
Whatsa matter? Frank crap on your pseudo- intellectual no-moral stance parade with one blunt, concise statement? My, my, how quickly one snipes and ridecules when one's arguement is so flatly answered and one has no logical response. As the saying was attributed to Socrates; "the last weapon of the defeated in a debate is slander and ridecule". Because a government says a thing is legal, that does not necessarily make it moral. In Nazi Germany it was legal to experiment on and destroy Jews and Gypsies. After all, they were property of the state, and the state determined that they were not human. Life? Rights? Does our Creator have any rights, or have we little men become our own little gods? Do we violently undo what He so lovingly created, just because His creation is inconvenient or untimely? See Jer: 1:5, and Job 10:8->. Shalom
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Minister Carey
D. Barron, I would like to go a little further on your comment. In America (north, south, and central), it was legal for Europe to send their Crusaders or Christians, and the lowest of the lowest of their people - indentured servants (the American colonists first slaves) and criminals to the Americas to kidnap, enslave, and/or kill off the indigenous people so the union government could steal their land and have it occupied by foreigners. And then Europe sent kidnapped Africans to America (including the islands) for enslavement. After all, the indigenous people were claimed to be heathens and inhuman if they were not Christians. The Africans were also considered to be property of the slave master. Therefore, they could be killed, experimented on and/or enslaved [and it continues today]. But it didn't stop there. Attempts were made to hide or destroy the true history of the indigenous people (the copper-toned people, and copper ain't red). To make the indigenous people believe they were slaves who came from Africa and had/have no rights to their own land. As Martin Luther King said in his I Had A Dream Speech, we are exiles in our own land. Now that was a part of history being revealed. What about the broken treaties between the indigenous people (so-called Indians) and the US government? What's legal is not always based on the Creator's law. Look at the pattern of some governments - the same pattern continues with other weaker countries to this day. Invade, kill off the old, story-keepers, doctors, scientists. Re-educate the children with a new history, suck the resources from their land. Psych the people into having children, whether rich or poor. And perhaps that's the one thing poor or low income people can have or can accomplish during this lifetime - make babies. The greatest commodity (other than air, land, water, and soil for food) in this world is not gold, silver, pork bellies. It is humans (human resources). Somebody (and different castes of somebodies) has got to do the work to make the world keep on turning. Will it be based on the laws of Great Spirit, the Creator of All that is? Will it be for the good and greatest joy of all people? Regarding judgment, who is worse - one who aborts an unwanted pregnancy, or one who is complicit with the taking and occupation of other people's land and resources, then look the other way? Dare to really wake up.
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revbarbarajadams
Such a sad existence you must have to hold the lives of babies so cheaply. Frank has every right to his opinion, as do you.
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revbarbarajadams
agreed
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Richard Leng
A fetus is not a "person" as defined by law. A fetus can't inherit, can't own property, etc. A fetus becomes a person upon birth. (check your birth certificate). Killing a fetus is not "murder" in the common law, nor under biblical law. Roe v. Wade wrestled with the difficult question of when the State can intervene in regulating a woman's right to control her own body. You can disagree with the law, but it is the law. There is no such thing as "pro-abortion" but there is "pro-choice" and their is "anti-abortion." I respect everyone's sincerely held belief, but our conduct is regulated by a legal system and one should not seek to impose their sincerely held beliefs that differ from the law on others. Thus you can believe that a fetus is a person if you want to, but you can't impose that belief on others. I hope that this is not viewed as a disrespectful response.
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Out Reach Pastor Joshua Davis
God Blesses all life, When a person becomes pregnant, That is our Heavenly Father Giving you a Gift. As if he were saying let me bless you with something so beautiful that our hearts can not fathom . In your mothers womb you have chosen me your love has called my name . He chooses to Give us life and loves you before you are born . We are all anointed by the blood that ransomed us . The bible says don't touch my anointed . When are the laws more important that just doing what is right
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Dave
Is a fetus a person? No it isn't.
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Rev John
To Richard and Dave, Killing a fetus is murder, both in GODs eyes and in our laws. If you shot and kill a pregnant women,you will be charged with the murder of two people not one, Read a few law books and one day glance at what is written about Thou shall not Kill, it's not a suggestion.
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Steve Schafir
I just don't understand why everyone is still going by the christian view. I have stated it before and will state it again. This is NOT a christian site. There are other religions that do not take this view. We have to go by the law of the land. This is a nation of laws not of religion. This country was founded specifically to have freedom of and from religion. By the law it is not a fetus. Trying to justify it by stating someone is killing a woman and being charged with 2 murders is short sighted and incorrect. What would happen if someone shot the woman and killed the baby but the woman survived. They would be charged with attempted murder of the woman but not the fetus.
In any case, abortion is legal and it is NOT murder. This has been well defined. You are using a religious NOT a legal definition of abortion and murder.
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Lawrence Rupp
RoeWade got it right.
Women have the right to control their own bodies.
Anything less is anti scientific, anti medical, anti democratic religious demagoguery.
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John Wilson
A fetus is not a person and the evidence used to support 'personhood' is flimsy and not based on science, theology or common sense.
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Doug Barron
Were YOU a person in your mama's gut? Or just a byproduct to be excreted?
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Gail Harrington
Yes a fetus is a human. I had a miscarriage the December 24th 2014 my body extracted the baby itself while I was going to the bathroom. I was 7 and a half weeks along I could tell it was the baby and I was forced to do the unthinkable after I had just gone through that. No the fetus may not have all of its organs and limbs but it is still living.
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Jay Anderson
A fetus is a person in the same sense that the fertile egg I ate for breakfast was a chicken.
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Doug Barron
So, your saying in essence; fried or scrambled fetus?
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Steve Boynton
How is it that the same people who oppose the death penalty as cruel and unusual punishment usually support the stopping of a beating heart in the womb?
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Michelle
First we must understand that these video's are not real Planned Parenthood people. I have worked with them and for them and know that these are not real as they do not sell anything. Especially through clinicians. I support a woman's right to choose when she shall take on the responsibility of having children. Woman have used a variety of things , herbs,potions, medicines,etc. to navigate the planning of children. It is not an issue that is taken lightly by us and one we have to navigate forever. It is not a political debate but many times it is about timing, finances, partnership, and capabilities. We worked to do this safely and now they make this a priority issue so we as a society ignore how corrupt our politicians are. Separation of church and state no debate.
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C.R. Marshall
My answer is two questions: 1. When does the soul enter the body? 2. What is the origin of the phrase "The Breath of Life"?
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Trevor
Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you" God created us all, whether you believe in him or not, he created you. He didn't call you a fetus he called you his son or daughter. We don't have the right to decide when someone should be considered living. If he created you your a life from the point that he did so. Anything else is just us deciding so because of our convenience.
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Minister Cherry
Speaking the Truth there That's The Word Of God! !
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tealady3
The best comment I have read so far.
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Rev. Franklin Jefferson
God's knowing a soul is a completely separate issue from whether (s)he considers a fetus a life, which (s)he does not, as we see in Exodus 21:22-23:
"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life."
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Preacher Jim
If you abort you have done away with one of God's creations. JEREMIAH 1:5. I think thats all that needs to be said.
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Jasen
My belief doesn't matter because it's not my decision.
Nor will I judge someone because of their choices.
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Fred
Yes
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TABurley
I am a person. I started out as a fetus; in fact all persons I know did. Part of the problem is that our use of the term person is ambiguous. The courts and the law usually are dealing with the person as legal entity, when I say I am a person i am speaking of a moral entity. Morals and law are often closely related, at least in the sense that they really only make sense in the context of separate entities. Remember, in this country, and in many others throughout history, slaves were not legal persons in the sense of enjoying certain inalienable rights and protection under the law. I would argue slaves were always moral persons in the sense of how we treated each other.
So the question then shifts to: when does life begin? We seem to again get stuck in ambiguity. Science can provide an answer; but as with virtually all things in science the answer is only an estimate or an approximation that is functional within an operating model of a system. Alternatively, the secular world is so mired in individualism and post-modern effacement of truth the answer varies from person to person. Even our faith based answers leave room for dialogue depending on how you view the ultimate reality as something in which we have a monistic or dualistic relationship. We can respect all these opinions, but it is hard to get by and give them all equal footing if you have to make a decision involving actual life, morally or legally, especially if it involves life other than your own.
A feature of the individualism that permeates our post-modern attitude is that we don't, or should not, become concerned with any life but our own. That's not to say we don't acknowledge life beyond our own, but we seem to have little concern for it beyond what we can gain from dominating or possessing it. Here I am not just speaking of human life, but all life. Our tendency is to live and let live, as long as others will do the same. We are offended when this expectation of life isn't met, and it allows us to avoid engaging in certain sticky aspects of life.
But how rarely is this expectation met in real life. Life teems all around us. It involves both joy and sorrow. As Viktor Frankl wrote about prisoners in WWII concentration camps: "What was really needed was a fundamental change in our attitude about life. We had to learn ourselves and, furthermore, we had to teach despairing men, that it did not really matter what we expected from life, but rather what life expected from us." In this attitude life is not a mine, yours, or theirs question; it is that in which we are a part, it involves all that happens. For a brief moment a person happens, that person starts as a fetus, that person ends as a corpse, life continues.
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revteajay
Tim, thank you for an intelligent breath of fresh air.
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Mark
If no one (yet) has been able to define when life begins how can we make laws permitting when to end it. I propose that far right pro-lifers concede to permit abortions under certain circumstances in order to save millions of unborn children provided that far left pro-choicers concede to enforceable limits on when an abortion can occur.
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Janelle Tavares Thompson
Is a person a person? YES as far as I am concerned there are individuals walking this Earth who are less a Person than a "fetus" is. Do I have the right to define what a "person" is to another "person" NO... that would make ME less a "person". Personally, I celebrate my children's conception dates as the beginning of my life with them, I don't have a party or make a big thing of it, but each year passes and I mark the days of conception and birth for my children as well as supposing the dates of conception for other family members, including myself, their Birthdays, death days, and New Life days and being mindful of them helps keep me Grateful and Thankful Every Day!
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E M Moriarty
Those leaders who insist that those with different beliefs must follow the beliefs of only one faith, are irresponsible leaders spewing forth only their own moral guidelines to the exclusion of many fine people who may be seeking an understanding The Creator. This DOGMA from the pulpit is an impediment to the inclusion of all in the family of mankind.
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revbarbarajadams
Very true, Ed.
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Rich
It would be nice if ULC would stay out of politics, but it won't. And it constantly remains on one side of the political debate. If only it would support all beliefs and be neutral.
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hsw
At what point do you believe ULC has taken a "side" on the issue? They appear to me to be on the side of truth and facts.
The only basis for a debate on the "morality" of abortion is a religious one - it's politicians who have made it a political issue by injecting religion into the legislative process, where it has no place.
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Rich
"on the side of truth and facts"? Really? What religion stands up to the test of "truth and facts"? Religion is about beliefs and faith. Please provide the provable facts on: When does life begin? and When does a person get a soul? Only an atheist stays on the side of truth and facts with no room for beliefs.
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Lorna
On the side of truth and facts, is what the Bible is all about. On the side of SCIENCE. It was MAN that invented the ULTRA SOUND that is proving over and over that the FETUS is a living being with a heart beat. So if you believe in SCIENCE then you MUST believe in the BIBLE. It is being tested and proven day after day.
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hsw
Well said Rich - no religion stands up to the test of "truth and facts." Which is the entire problem with religion. Even those of the same religion can't agree on what the "facts" are so I am left to conclude that they make it up as they go along, and that there are no facts that support religion. You have a problem with atheists?
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Alicia McIntosh
I strongly believe that abortion should have new rulings. Meaning it should only be allowed due to and involuntary act of rape,in which is reported. This will give the government control and to compensate the true victims. Now as far as for the grow adult who went against the ruling of God and decided to have sex before marriage in any case should have to endure there own judgment in which would be to have the child and suffer the consequences.Sometimes it's hard and in many times God show more mercy and grace in which they can survive. This has been done even in the bible days and showed to work. The problem then was that the ruling of the land was that man can have any women and as many women as he pleased despite how they met including rape offense. Man could even kill for it. But for women who was unmarried and went against the ruling of God many times was left to die with her child or kicked out of her family. Then they called them prostitute's and whore's,but in today's time we call them baby momma's and even give them a television show to platform from. This is insane. This is not a hard decision.It is the right one. It is vey funny to me how everyone would either stay out of peoples affairs when the kingdom of God is the ruler over peoples affair.The world is coming to the church asking for our opinions and standings and all the church can say is let me stay out of it. This is another insane act on our behalf. If we stand for nothing we will allow anything.For the world has now bust down the doors of the churches asking for answers and making request and now even our rights to choose is now on the line. Due to the delay of the church with guidance in may area's and refusing to speak up and to close our mouths,we have given the devil free rule over the kingdom on earth. This issue goes way beyond the freedom to choose and anyone who thinks it doesn't beware.Abortion prevention and education about safe sex or sex at all had been establish for a long number of years and so have preventive medicine,and notification to women that goes to the doctor get's counsel about having a baby while in good health and while being sick with a disease.This is my view and belief and I respect the opinion of other.Sorry if I sound too direct,but this is not the time for fluffy answers when God is asking us to choose as well.
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Rev. Steve Hatfield
Alicia, here is some unsought advice: relax. You say "God is asking us to choose as well" and I just have to remind you that anyone who claims to know the mind and will of God is talking out of her hat. As the mystics have always reminded us, when it comes to God, those who say they know, don't know. And those who say they don't know are people on the right track. So relax, Alicia, and let women enjoy some sovereignty over their own bodies and lives. That is nothing to fear, is it?
And as for abortion, here's a true story. I was talking in school one day with a young girl who told me that one of the old time administrators in the building, a man who had been a teacher in the building when her mother had been a student there, had advised her mother many years ago when she found herself pregnant that she might want to consider abortion. Well, the young mother-to-be chose not to seek an abortion and the child born to her was now sitting in front of me telling me this story. Now the young girl telling me her mother's story was a delightful girl, full of positive energy and far-reaching potential, and I was glad to know her. At the same time, I couldn't helping thinking that if she weren't there to tell me that story, life would still be trundling on as bumpily and beautifully as ever. So what it comes down to, and I think it's clear, is that when it comes to reproduction, which is the miraculous power nature has awarded primarily to the females among us, women ought to be allowed to make the call for themselves. Some things are worse than death, after all, and ending an unwanted pregnancy isn't one of them.-
hsw
I find the idea of a child being viewed as "judgement" to be as repugnant as you view the act of abortion. No diety I'd want anything to do with would make a child "punishment," as being an unwanted child is at least as much a punishment for the child as for the mother.
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Pastor Martin
A person, alive!
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KEITH MARTIN
yea!, I know death at the end of life, and at birth. seen the destruction of families from incest in my own due to relatives. with no soul while professing being Christians. the point I had wish to convey was it is a matter for all to work toward solving not complain and do absolutely nothing about. life is precious beyond the confines of this universe pastor keith
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Ernie Thomas
I agree With Rich. One can almost always see ULC's bias. The organization attempts to portray neutrality, but you are anything but open to all sides of an issue. This article is an example of how slanted the organization has become. Gets worse every year.
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Lila
Abortion is murder. You take an INNOCENT human life. I'm pretty sure Lucifer has a fitting punishment for that.
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frank olvera
Amen
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Jim Stoner
"A final question of ethics unique to the PP undercover video scandal is less dramatic...."
Not hardly. It is the most dramatic part of it. In fact it was nothing but dramatic fiction. It turns out the videos are complete and utter frauds. Conversation altered and over 40 splices. This isn't a reflection on Planned Parenthood's dishonesty. It is a reflection on the dishonesty and willingness to bald faced lie of the Pro Life crowd. Surprise surprise. What a woman chooses to do with her body is her choice and nobody elses. It certainly has nothing to do with non-existing Gods.
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Jim Minion
Factually accurate, lying for a religious conviction is lying. Well stated.
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William Sayers
Your mothers let you live.
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hsw
My mother didn't have a choice.
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Rev Liz
Nor did mine. My mother married as an 18 year old virgin then had 3 kids in 34 months. Trust me, by the time she realized I was on the way, if there was a way to safely and legally abort, I have no doubt she would have. Thank goodness the BC pills came along later! (and before anyone asks, no...it doesn't bother me to think that she might have done that. I would not be aware of my lack of existance, would I?)
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Cori C.
I have read that a fetus can dream...and if you can dream you are as alive as you and I. And those poor babies need every possible chance that we got. I have also now heard about post term abortion...where they are trying to legalize after birth abortion...which is outright murder. As well as partial term abortion where they take the baby out that could, in all sense of the word, survive outside of the womb and squish its head. Sure ya have to pay a little more...but I suppose a woman wants to be free right? Wrong! It is selfish and cruel and heartbreaking. There are so many people out there that can not have children that would be more than happy to love that child! I am sorry for the rant. I got pregnant at 20. 1 year after I lost my virginity. It was not planned at all and I was not ready. My mom presented the abortion option and I didn't even consider it. It has been all kinds of tough as a young mother. But my beautiful 9 year old daughter is my everything. My best friend. I never wanted to have children...but do not ever regret my decision. We need more counseling and help for women out there who are struggling and scared. To let them know God has a plan for them and their child. And that he will provide in times of hardship. I found out I was 2wks pregnant when I barrel rolled my pickup truck on a 4ln expressway not wearing a seatbelt landed upside down and climbed out unscathed. That was God's grace right there. I should have died...but he knew I had a purpose and so does my baby girl.
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tealady3
Cori C. your life story is so much like mine. My family cut me out of their lives and home at 20 and pregnant, I also had people tell me to have an abortion but I never considered it. My son is now 32. God bless you and your family.
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Minister D
In utero tissue & freshly extracted tissue are noone's concern or Right but the mother's. Abortion is the best alternative, after abstinence & planning, to avoid further overpopulation, overburdened social welfare programs, & child abuse. To take any other position is to further oppress women, children, & the earth.
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Cori C.
And everyone out there that supports abortion...what if your mother aborted you? You only support it because you are one of the lucky few who made it.
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Melissa
Honestly if my mother had aborted me I'd never know. But i would rather not know existence outside of God's love, than live a life feeling unwanted or unloved. Have you ever as a child had to ask why mom or dad didn't love you?
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Rev Liz
Thumbs up for that one, Melissa!
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Lowell
A woman has the right to choose. A woman has control over her body. No ifs ands or buts. No government or religion can interfere. The Pope has now said priests may forgive women who have abortions. Radical. Women do not need forgiveness Women need love and Compassion. We all do.
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CW
You have to stop saying this is a fetal material. What the Director of the PP did was illegal. It was the same as selling cancer cells. Something that was once in a human. The a growth is only a fetus while it is with a human. If it does not have a heart beat and also brain waves above the monkey brain, It does not have a soul. A soul does not inhabit a cancer growth and that is how the human body reacts to a pregnancy. This action was illegal by law, No human parts may be sold in the USA. Not even the fat sucked off during liposuction. These items are not fetus or fetal they are discarded waste. People need to quit thinking they know what god wants just because a book that was man made tells them that is the case. If God did not want people to have abortions he/she would stop it. IF god did not want abortions to happen, he/she would have never let the church make it a consequence of the "first sin". Nor would he/she allowed the church to make everything that is the miracle of woman and child birth be a punishment. The church wrote all this in a book so that the men of the church could hold themselves as better then women. Funny how the word Woman meant for year more than man but is now a bad thing. Quit telling people that they should not do with their body as they wish. He who has no sin cast the first stone. Those without sin do not have it in them to cast stones. So next time you wish to throw a stone think about what sin your trying to hide then RUN.
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Rev Liz
I agree with Dawn's reply to your post. And do keep in mind....the PP videos were a pro-life hack job. NOT REAL. Lies and exaggerations are the acts of people who are desperate to make a point, A rather weak one, apparently. There were many splices found in those videos so let's not keep the good of PP from proceeding based on that. If you want to go live in the Vatican, knock yourself out. But in the US, the separation of church and state exists and abortion is legal. I would appreciate the bible staying out of my reproductive organs.
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Dawn
Remember in the U.S.A. Church and government are separate. So stop quoting the Christian Bible. And this is about our personal private rights as a citizen. It is and should always be, my choice to choose what to do with my body!
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A. Dujardin
If it grows it's alive, so yes a fetus is a living being and should be recognized as a human being from conception. A seed is a seed until planted and then it starts to grow this is life too.
The only way I see abortion being necessary is in case of rape, incestuous pregnancy, if having the baby will kill the mother and then it's her choice, things of this nature and for no other reason.
About 15 years ago I met a woman who used abortion as her method of birth control and she was getting ready for her 6th abortion !! To me she was and is a murderer !!! It ought to be legal to shoot bitches like her ! Sick disgusting bitch.
For those of you who believe in abortions for any reason at any time in your pregnancy you should really take the time to actually view a real abortion at various times in your pregnancy and then if you can stomach that find a great phyciatrist and beg for an emergency appointment now !!!!! Because only a monster would do this to an innocent baby not yet born.
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Rev Liz
Well, if we really want to get technical, a fetus is a parasite, in that it needs the woman to serve as host....to nourish it's cells to assure growth. If a woman chooses not to play host, she should have the right to do what is right for her.
I find it ironic that you spout how it is murder, (out of one side of your mouth) while saying the "bitch" who was preparing for her 6th abortion should be shot. Judge and jury. How special.
Let me ask you a few questions:
Are you a Christian? Do you believe in judgement day? Do you think God knows what all we do? OK, if you answered yes to those questions...you are relieved of jury duty. God will take care of all that when that "bitch" dies. You can go watch tv and just relax now. He's got this one
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Rhonda
Rhonda: I am a midwife and mother of 5 ...grandmother of 10...so far. I am in agreement in pro choice but anti abortion. A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body, but not the body of another human being ie: a baby. It is a difficult stance to take on this. I have been with girls and women who became pregnant thru both insect and rape. They chose to keep the babies and love and adore the child. It too a great deal of love , support and healing work to do this. So I do not agree that because of those situations there should be automatic abortion. As far as for the health of life of the mother that argument is nearly a mute issue as in this modern time rarely is that the case. I believe in the sanctity of innocent life. There is nothing more innocent than an unborn child. I have studied in the field of Pre-Perinatal Phycology and it has been scientifically proven that the unborn are beings who not only feel physically and emotionally but are also are aware of what is happening around them and hear what is going on. They desire to thrive and live. They feel rejection and pain and they deserve to be treated with upmost respect and kindness. If a woman finds herself with an unwanted pregnancy she has many choices...not just abortion. I has a daughter who had an abortion and me and my family didn't know about it until after the fact. It was emotionally devastating to her and she ended up dying of suicide, from the burden of guilt. We supported her and loved her no matter what but it scared her soul. This is a common event with women who have abortions and they often suffer alone with their guilt and regrets. I am adamantly opposed to so called 'late term' abortions. If...and I say IF a woman is decided to terminate she has a moral obligation to do it within the 1st 2 months after conception. Doing it any later is irresponsible and callused, as in todays society conception can be realized within days...not months. I have struggled with this issue for some time as I said in the beginning I believe in a woman's choice but am opposed to abortion. I know women who are careless and have had multiple abortions as birth control...this in my estimation is concretely wrong! I know may friends and family who have chosen abortions I love them and do not judge them. That is not my place to judge. However correct and sometimes graphic reality and education for women who are contemplating abortion is not inappropriate. No white washing and saying it is just tissue. That is a lie perpetuated by the pro abortion and Planned Parenthood people.. I went to a PP place when I was 22, I looked 16 and told them I was pregnant and wanted an abortion. Without taking medical history or even a pregnancy test they had me scheduled and ready to go that day. This was many years ago and perhaps things have changed. I had a daughter who went at 16 to get the pill, without mu knowledge. I knew her past health issues. They clinic didn't. They gave her the pill and she nearly died from complications! So I don not have positive experience with PP. If they want to continue I personally do not want my tax dollars funding them. Let them become 501c3 and look for private funding and continue business that way. I am a strong advocate of women and babies and freedom for all. That freedom includes protecting and advocating for the unborn. In the end God will prevail and I ask blessings and wisdom for the women who find themselves in difficult situations.
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Rev Liz
I have such issues with the above stories. I dont know how old you are but I have been involved with PP for over 40 years and much of your "stories" do not align with reality.
Also you say you are a "strong advocate of women and babies and freedom for all"but it seems it is only if they agree with you.
Suh'um aint right, here.
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Rhonda
Hmmmm...you don't know me and what I have said is true...I am 60 years old and AM an advocate for women...and children...the born and unborn. The science I mentioned above is valid and has shown without a doubt the unborn babies are aware and thinking and dreaming beings. Separate from their mothers and if given the time they are viable human beings. When I was younger I also was involved with PP and it is true they do some good things...but some good does not out weigh the negative and irresponsible things that go on there that I have personally witnessed. Please do not presume to question my ethics it is insulting and I am not a young religious zealot. My experiences and opinions are mine and as valid as anyone else's. I repeat from a past post...I am appalled at the mean spirited and rude comments by people on both sides of this debate. We may never agree on the topic of abortion and that's a good thing. Open honest dialogue is healthy and is the right we have in a free society. I will not be accused by Liz or anyone else that my words are not the truth. That is insulting and wrong. IF you can't handle people having an opposing thought , opinion and experience then maybe you aren't mature enough to be debating such a hot topic. I will repeat...I am pro choice but anti abortion. When someone makes a decision that effects another human being...not a chicken or an egg... they may do well to look deeper into real science and education of what is happening to the little life they don't want. Responsible sexual behaviors is one answer. There is FREE birth control at PP, schools and other organizations. Using abortion as a form of birth control is irresponsible and very dangerous not only for the aborted child but for the woman!!! There are many people wanting to adopt...although the adoption process is appallingly expensive and exhausting. Prevention is something that is rarely discussed and even with the ...so called ...sex ed in schools has been a huge failure. The information about birth control, STD's and other topics at PP is quite good. I do believe their true information about abortion is lacking and not in depth of what really is happening to the baby or to the woman's body and psyche. This is from personal experience...I am not quoting scripture, as there are many people here who think God doesn't belong in this dialogue. I disagree with that. There are consequences to actions we take in our life. The people who are with holding information to women to make a truly informed decision should be held accountable. Not only the topic of abortion but for a woman...or man, who are depending on a doctor or caregiver to give them full disclosure of risks and benefits. Have a nice day!
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James
So I see many who are 100% against abortion, they say they are "Pro Life"! How can some of the same people who make this statement feel it is ok to sentence a person to death whom is convicted of raping and murdering a child? Wouldn't that be a double standard?
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Katrina
I have never had to use abortion as anything other than a topic for discussion and deep thought. I have however, been raped and scared to death that I would end up pregnant from the violent attack. Thankfully, I was not. But the OPTION was there, if I had, and believe me, I was as scared of that as I was of being pregnant. However, I was also GRATEFUL that there was an option for me. My belief is simple, "Don't tell me how to live my life and I won't tell you how to live yours." I don't know every single woman's story or reasoning and I don't NEED to. I have no right and NO ONE has the right to tell her what to do with her own body. Whatever she chooses, is because she feels the need to. I won't judge, nor will I sit in condemnation for someone's decision. It is not my place. Their conscience will guide them best. Before AND after.
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Min. Kirk
A woman has a right to her own body. That isn't doubted. However, the fetus is not her body, but its own body. It is a separate entity.
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Rev Liz
I have been a nurse for many, many years so I know what I am talking about, here. A fetus is NOT a separate entity. It is a parasite that RELIES on the woman for it's life. Without her, it would not be viable. It is as connected to her as much as a limb.
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Martha Knight
Is a caterpillar a butterfly?
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Charles Schormann
This is the most lucid response I have yet read. Thank you.
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hsw
Is your breakfast egg a chicken?
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Minister Carey
A caterpillar is a caterpillar with the potential to become a butterfly. Something could abort its metamorphosis. Ever watch a bird with a sharp eye for worms? Hmm, will the bird be judged when it gets to bird heaven or will it go straight to bird hell? A chicken egg has the potential to bring forth a babe. If a fox, snake, or human abort the birthing process, will they be judged when they get to their appropriate heaven or hell?
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Gil
The real issue is whether tax payers should support the killing of babies! NO you want an abortion pay for it, or go where private funds subsidize your abortion. Then We can argue about the constitutional right without the funding issue.
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Rev Liz
Planned Parenthood abortions are NOT PAID FOR BY TAXES!! Anyone who says otherwise does not know what they are talking about!
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Rhonda
Gil is right...if PP is not paid for by tax dollars then answer this...why is it being discussed in Congress about ...defunding???? YES it is paid for with tax dollars...check your facts!!!!
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Stella
There are many comments here that are based mostly on religious beliefs that I don't share. I support abortion for any reason. Birth control fails. I find it interesting that few speak to overpopulation; the earth has a carrying capacity that has already been exceeded; 67% of the world is hungry; many children being born are born to other children unprepared to parent [12-year old mothers anyone?]; many babies are born addicted to crack, meth, have fetal alcohol syndrome, etc. and likely have permanenet brain damage. Once born, people don't want to support them yet they likely won't be able to support themselves. I believe the anti-abortion movement has resulted in glorifying motherhood that has led to permissive sex among teens resulting in millions of children the state has to support. Children are told not to have sex and their parents are the same ones who don't want sex-ed taught in school. This is completely at odds with preventing pregnancy. The vast majority of human beings have sex before marriage. The pro-life people often seem to believe that life begings at conception and ends at birth, because they don't care what happens to the child after birth. There are many things worse than death. I read in the paper daily about murdered and abused children under the age of 6. Their parents never wanted them to begin with and once they were born they spent their short lives being abused until they were murdered. Is that better than being aborted? I would argue a solid no. This is a far more complciated issue than most people want to believe. Simply saying abortion is wrong or murder fails to address the plethora of issues involved in bringing another life into the world.
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Ellen M. Santistevan
Thank you! Yes!
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Rev Liz
Sanity, at last!
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tom
A human fetus has hands, a heart, blood, feet, etc. A human fetus will not develop into a frog, a monkey or mouse. It will develop into a human being if allowed to do so. If it's up to Planned Parenthood the body parts are a payday..
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Rev Liz
I respect your first comment about the fetus. The PP comment is ignorant.
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Tim Schnell
With all the proof out there now about the lying video tapes that were extremely edited; your statement about PP is one of BLATANT STUPIDITY! Educate yourself before promoting BLATANT LIES, that will damage so many lives.
A human fetus is nothing more than a parasite to the mother until it is formed enough to live on it's own. So that statement is only a half-truth. That again is spreading and perpetuating a LIE! What does your book of misogyny, hate, hypocrisy, and slavery say about lying? Oh yea, you're not supposed to. Hypocrite Liar!
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HP Daniel Roe
I am an adopted child, I am glad I had the chance to become who I am. , I seem to be of a different mind, while we can talk about a woman's right too choose, I believe a father should have the same rights to choose to support the life he as well created. I have seen too many times the "rights" if the woman to decided for her body conflict with the wishes of a father.
Honestly if you are willing to engage in the act of procreation, a child if the result. If you do not want a child sexual intercourse would not be advised. It's just logical,
Blessed Be,
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any part of a human's body is human, a wort is a human wort.
Any part of a human's body is human, especially a fetus !
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Rev Liz
Warts, like hemorrhoids are often removed. Poor analogy.
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Dr. Danielle J. Duperret, ND/PhD
A fetus is just a little human. S/he has his/her own fingerprints, dreams his/her own dreams... It's a little person. Why would we feel right to terminate his/her life because we do not see it. It suffers pain too...
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Pastor B Stevens
I've kept my mouth shut over this for years . To me yes life began when cells began to devide yet I also understand certain situations . No woman should suffer having to bring to term a child brought on by rape , incest , real health problems that could result in death or a child being born ( breathing air ) that is horribly disfigured . As for very young children becoming pregnant this goes two ways it's up to the parent of the female what's best for that child . I'll let God judge that's not my job . I do wonder how many babies not born bored could have been a blessing to each of us eventually , which child aborted would have been a leader , artist , good mother or father , and I wonder how many unborn children would have been evil wicked killers or other ugly vicious adults . No matter ultimately it's a woman's choice and they and our creator will face off one day . Let God judge ! On the other hand let's look at this , certain groups want to stop abortions across the board no matter how conception was created . Yet these same judgmental groups will scream and yell at the young mother seeking public assistance raising a child in poverty . Yes you know who you are ! The mother can't get help and the child grows into yet another dead end life without proper nutrition proper love proper education . A child growing up on food stamps rarely develpe strong brains this is proven fact . So no matter how a young mother chooses certain groups hammer away at her it's just insane ! I see people seeking a baby by having doctors boost certain hormones and a host of other pregnancy help yet we have hundreds of thousands of children in foster care needing a forever home . None of these so called religious groups adopt nor even consider adoption . In the U.S. Adopting a child is wayyyyyyy to tough this is why when someone does go this path they adopt outside the U.S. . Hypocrites are thick in our country especially in these specific religious groups . None are practicing the teachings of Christ . Again it should be left up to the mother what they want not a hypocrite preacher . Let women choose their path in this life and she and God will face each other one day , that's judgment day and none of us are to judge her decision . Tough questions ! Simple answer let God judge -----
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bsklgn
a fetus is not a human
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Roy
A fetus is not a child. I'm pro choice. Pro choice doesn't mean pro abortion, it means I'm going to mind my own business and so should you. Women have a hard enough time choosing without strangers harassing her
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Lorna
If there is a heart beating then there is for sure LIFE, right the very moment of conseption there is a heart beat. This is only my opinion that ALL should have the chance to live, we do not have the power of GOD to say who lives and who does not. I am all for NOT making someone rich because they are paid for abortions.
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Pastor Ronald Sarver
A fetus has it's own DNA and it's own soul. It is positively a human being and ending it's life is murder.
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hsw
A copperhead has its own DNA - I'll bet if there's one in your garage you're looking for a shovel. And your point is?
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Doug Person
I believe strongly in the right of a woman to make her own choices. Abortion is neither right nor wrong. It is always regrettable and often a heart breaking event. Nonetheless, our business is to love the woman who chooses this path regardless. We are not here to judge. We are here for the purpose of spreading God's love to all and to enable others to see the true purpose God created mankind. None of us should ever feel we are so righteous to raise an accusing finger to another of God's children in judgement. God is perfectly capable of our Father and to accept and forgive whatever choices, we His imperfect and flawed children, make. A woman's decision is strictly between her and God and non of our business.
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paranormallionpv
I'm with you on this. Certainly every person in this world has a right to make decision. For me intention matters more than anything else. If it's good , good will happen and Vice a versa.
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APOSTLE P.T.MIKELL
100% YES...! A FETUS IS A PERSON...! A DEVELOPING HUMAN LIFE...! ALL WHO PARTICIPATE IN THE WILLFUL DESTRUCTION OF A PERSON, HUMAN LIFE FORM SHALL STAND BEFORE THE JUDGEMENT THRONE OF THE LORD GOD JESUS AND GIVE ACCOUNT.. RECIVING JUST REWARD FOR MURDER!... I TELL YOU OF A TRUTH... JUDGEMENT IS AT TTHE DOOR!!!
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Lucien Chaput
Rubbish.
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Kathy
I support abortion, I support the freedoms and rights for a woman to do at will what is right and needed for her body. God will forgive It is the humans that need to be reminded to not judge and to not determine other peoples choices for them. Remember we are not God.
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Mycroft
Defund Planned Parenthood.
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Rev Liz
No. Thank you!
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hsw
Because? And if your answer has anything to do with selling baby body parts don't bother.
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Robert
Just as God gave us the blessing of children so did He give us the blessing of contaceptives for protection of unwanted pregnancy and also any form of STD you can think of. . Now it is Each Person's Responsibility to act appropriately. It does not begin with the fetus. It begins with each individual taking responsibily for their own actions. Look at the core of this contraversy! !!!
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Sun An
It is not a person. It is an embryo. However, it is far more person-like in the third trimester, and while abortions should be legal for women at their discretion, communities should urge women in their third trimester to continue with the pregnancy and promise, in contract, to support her, if she needs or requests that support, financial, moral and in other ways so that abortion can be avoided. It is not an evil. It is necessary, however, it is a shame and should be avoided, and we should never shame women for having abortions or coerce them not to do it. Protect Roe v Wade and install nation-wide, comprehensive pregnant women and family support networks and deep, community education on family planning to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place. Ensure this education is fully integrated into high schools under the realistic understanding that sex and pregnancy are natural for youths and accept that it occurs in schools. Decriminalize and run out to support youths and others in their lives. That is the loving and rational thing to do.
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eliud colbath
Every situation is different.thou shall not kill.this is god word coming from his hand.the commandments were hand written by god himself and applies to the old and new testament. How can a person discard go's greatest gift. Imagine how hard it was for him to sacrifice his son for us sinners. Amen.
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Rev Liz
I could not for a moment have considered aborting my kids....although, fortunately, they were both planned and very much wanted. But do please consider that in our US, we are so diverse that there are many, many who do not believe in your God and some, no God at all. It is with our diversity in mind that I remind you of the separation of church and state. It is fine for YOU to practice your faith as you see fit, but it is also your responsibility to allow others their point of view. All religions are right. They are all THE TRUTH....to those who believe. Let that wonderful God take care of the judgement. If in fact, He exists. (I happen to believe in God, BTW....but have many friends who do not. Or in other deities. They have as much rights in the US as the rest of us)
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Doug Person
I worked for several years as a volunteer in a clinic for children of alcoholic parents. Just today, I heard another horrific story of a child, whose parents are serious alcoholics, that is destined to be a life that will only take from the rest of us, be a burden to us all. If abortion is so horrible that it should be outlawed - what of the children to be born without loving parents?
After Roe V: Wade there was a tremendous drop in crime. Statistical analysis has proven that this was the result of the reduction in unwanted children. Crime is on the raise. Why? Abortion is on the decline.
So, every conception should be carried to term? No matter what? To alcoholic, abusive parents (or just parent), to mothers who are drug addicts and prostitutes as well? Each child should be born even if it's life will be hopeless before it even takes its first breath?
Its a great hypocrisy to choose absolutism on such an issue without fully understanding the life of the woman facing such a choice. How can you be so sure? How can you choose with certainty what is right and what is wrong without looking out into the world through the eyes of a woman facing that terrible choice?
Jesus taught compassion, forgiveness and love. The instant you loose your ability to be compassionate you have drifted into the darkness.
Deciding that a fetus is a person is your right. But it is not science. At what point a fetus becomes a person is something that can never be fully determined; not by science and not by religion. That is why a woman must always retain the right to choose her own path. That decision will always be between her and God.
Before you judge those who choose to end a pregnancy, go work in a clinic in a ghetto somewhere. Go to a third world country and treat starving, hopelessly sick children who have no hope and no future. There are millions of them.
I've known women for whom abortion is form of birth control. I can think of nothing more repugnant. I have also known women who were desperate, for whom having a child would be a life-destroying event.
Think carefully about children brought into a world of poverty, starvation, abuse, and hopelessness. Think of a world of 9 billion people where starvation is the norm. That is our future. Or at least the future of our great grand children.
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Rev Liz
Brother, you ROCK!
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Brother Bill
In most cases a fetus has a heartbeat before a woman knows she is pregnant. The decision to end life at that time should be made by God, not a woman how is going through an emotional roller coaster.
What we need to be asking ourselves is what can we do as CHRISTians to help "PREVENT" unplanned pregnancies. No one has ever grieved for an unconceived child.
There are exceptions to everything but even if we can save one life from being taken, or one unplanned life from being created, we are successful at what we are doing.
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Rev Liz
As CHRISTians, we can stop judging....remember how the bible says :" Judge not..." and leave women to their own decisions. And just, by the by, many an unconceived child has been grieved. Have you ever seen a woman who sooo wanted to conceive and got her period instead? Yes, they grieve for the unconceived.
I do agree, that we should do more to PREVENT unwanted pregnancies...but that would involve other things that many a Christians and Conservatives would not go for....such as sexual ed starting in early grades (age appropriate), FREE birth control, counseling. We cant seem to find a middle ground so until then, let's give the freedom of her own body to the woman. WHERE IT BELONGS!
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hsw
Only a man would make such a stupid and uninformed statement. Most women know they're pregnant before they even have enough hormone in their bloodstream for a positive pregnancy test.
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Martha Knight
Those who cite this or that poetic language in the Bible as the basis of their ideas of the all-wise, loving, detailed awareness of God toward each fertilized embryo, through all its stages of development, would probably attribute to God the love and caring that would mean God would not discard the soul of the unborn that did not become an actual baby. God recognized that unborn, at every stage since conception, as a person? And the person has died? But it has died completely innocent of any sin, never having had any opportunity to exert its will in any way that would be contrary to God's will. Surely that blameless "person" will have eternal life, right? No sin can be laid to its charge. Many would say that this unborn person is at its only wholly innocent point in life. God will judge this person at last, and surely there would be no punishment due. However, there are those who insist that society or government has a right or a duty to truncate the lifespan of living persons who have committed, or are adjudged to have committed, a "capital crime." Who is to say that, based on the New Covenant (New Testament), that person, if he or she did commit that crime, might not yet come to repentance and be reconciled with God, even though still meriting society's punishment? If "the People" kill that person (deliberately, in cold blood), that opportunity for reconciliation with God is ended, or the reconciled criminal is allowed only the amount of earthly life as a child of God that humans have decreed, not the amount God has ordained.
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Matt
A fetus is a developing human being. It is not yet a human being, therefore, not a person.
Furthermore, no one has a right to tell another person what to do with their body. If a woman wants to have an abortion, that is her decision. No one else's. Why is everyone so concerned about what other people are doing with their bodies? Is it any of your business? No. MYOB. If you're religious and against abortion because of your religion, that person will face judgement for their offense, won't they? (According to your religion, of course). So don't worry about it. Don't you have other things to worry about other than what strangers are doing?
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Melissa
Something i havent seen addressed, is the beings ability to make a decision for themselves. A parent is in charge of health decisions for a child, and if the choice arises between allowing a child to live with poor quality of life (stuck in bed/wheelchair, unable to care for themselves, or communicate) or letting them pass, sometimes the more humane approach is to allow them to pass. The Same is applied to adults and pets. I'd be interested in reading more on this point.
Personally, abortion is the mother's choice. I may not agree with the choice, but i feel that while that child is physically attached to her body by placenta and umbilical cord, it is part of the mother's body, and therefore the mother's decision.
I say this having a child of my own and another on the way. I have always felt that if we were to conceive while on birth control, if we could not provide a decent quality life for the child, the responsible action would be to terminate. That does not mean I would have found it easy, or felt completely relieved. On he contrary i would have been depressed, and emotionally torn apart. But if in a situation where that child might not have been able to br provided for, or in the case of putting the child up for adoption that child may never find a loving family, i could not in good conscience bring that life into the world to suffer. That to me is a far more cruelty than a child should be subjected to.
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hsw
Melissa, that's a thoughtful, reasoned position. As someone who has worked in Social Services and seen the outcome for too many unwanted children born to parents with no means, either emotional or financial, to support and nurture them, I can assure you that in many of the cases you describe, termination would have been a better option. It might be hard to say someone was better off not being born, until you've seen the kind of "life" they end up with.
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Tim Conner
The ethics of abortion are none of anyone's business except the people directly involved. A woman, her partner and her physician.
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Dolly
I respect a right to choose. However, as a form of birth, no! There is too much of that. As for is a fetus a person. The spirit enters in around 3 months along to try the fetus on for size so to speak. You can make up your own mind.
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Tim Schnell
The real point here is: Bodily Autonomy
There is a concept called bodily autonomy. It’s generally considered a human right. Bodily autonomy means a person has control over who or what uses their body, for what and how long. It’s why you can’t be forced to donate blood, tissue, organs. Even if your dead. Even if you’d save or improve 20 lives. It’s why someone can’t touch you, have sex with you, or use your body in any way without your continuous consent.
A fetus is using someone’s body parts. Therefore under bodily autonomy, it is there by permission, not by right. It needs a persons continuous consent. If they deny or withdraw consent, the pregnant person has a right to remove them from that moment. A fetus is equal in this regard because if I need someone else’s body parts to live, they also can deny me their use.
By saying a fetus has a right to someone’s body parts until it’s born, despite the pregnant person’s wishes, you are doing two things.
1} Granting a fetus more rights to other people’s bodies than any born person. 2} Awarding a pregnant person less right’s to their body then a corpse.
You are also admitting you no longer have the right to say no to ANYTHING that is wanted of your body from ANYONE! Sex, blood donation, organ donation, forced vaccines, forced DNA swab, forced blood draws, burial preferences, denied healthcare due to age, health degradation, religion, race, citizenship, sexual preference, weight, sterilization, etc., etc.. The needs of the many would now out weigh the needs of the few or the one. Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.
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Rev Liz
Good post!
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KEITH MARTIN
your part of the problem if you give no useful comments other then run your ridicule of someone trying to open up this debate. then you have lost your point of argument. good day to you sir.
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Martha Knight
Myra and others have quoted the poetic language, "I knew you before you were formed in the womb" as proof that a fetus is a person. But that scrap of language would indicate that God knew the individual before he was a fetus. Perhaps that is an argument against birth control? Other poetry, Wordsworth's "Intimations of Immortality," posits that "Life is but an isthmus between two eternities," with God having a warehouse of souls waiting for bodies, and will implant those souls in humans (presumably at birth, which most people have thought of as the beginning of anyone's life) as those humans become available, and will recapture the soul after death. Some religions hold that the soul will be stored awaiting judgment, and then some believe it will have a body with different properties in which the soul will reside through eternity, either in bliss (more or less according to earned rewards) or in torment and total exclusion from God.
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Rev. Pankaj Trehan
"Child is the father of a man." "We do not inherit land from ancestors we borrow it from our children"
Yes , anything that has consciousness is living & a child gains conciousness inside the mother's womb. Now it is for the Humans to decide what their own conscience says . I'll just say that Right to personal decision making should be considered & so should be right to that Child. Medically talking the life inside the child starts after the forth month. Still there are many different circumstances for all humans.It is the intention that matters most.
May Love , light & peace be on all.
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Rich
"Is your breakfast egg a chicken?" No. It's dead, and was killed minutes after being laid when it was allowed to cool below incubation temperature. But I've raised ducks from eggs, and when you hold an incubated egg up to a light, you can see the heart beating, later, you can see feathers and a beak. Then, 2 days before hatching, the egg moves around on it's own and you can hear peeping noises from inside the egg. Does that mean that the moving, peeping duck is not alive because it's on the other side of the shell? It's very much alive. All life is fragile when it begins. At what specific moment after conception does human life begin? At birth? The time of birth is movable and can be scheduled for convenience. A woman can have a C section days or weeks before the due date, so a surgeon creates the beginning of life?
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Rev Liz
Not so, m y friend. I am a chicken keeper and fertile eggs do not die "minutes after being laid if allowed to cool below incubation temperature".http://www.raising-happy-chickens.com/storing-fertile-eggs.html I understand the point you are trying to make, however. But, it is still NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS if a woman choses to terminate her pregnancy. And and egg is not a chicken!
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Joshua
Whether a fetus is a person or not, the question is 'does the fetus have more rights than the person bearing it?' when it comes to the question of abortion. And I refer to the scenario that if someone is dying and needs a specific type of blood, a.k.a. mine, I am not legally obligated to ever give them that blood. And I am free to let them die.
This is true of fetuses and pregnancy. The pregnant person should never be obligated to, against their will, provide their resources and body for this other person. If they choose to stop, they should be allowed to stop. Point blank.
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Cindi
I used to think it was ok to abort an unborn child. But now there is proof scientifically that unborn children feel pain. That means unborn children are ALIVE and NOT an IT. I totally and against abortion.
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Steve Schafir
Many of you are delusional. It is no one's business other than the person(s) making the decision. Stay out of people's lives. It is NOT a life. If you believe that then let's ask the fetus if it wants to be aborted or not. The bible does not support the position of it being a life nor does it take any position on abortion. People will lie to get their point across. Check out the following link which proves this. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-joel-hoffman/what-does-the-bible-really-say-about-abortion_b_8076790.html
I know you are going to say that the Huffington post has an agenda. So do the religious. The religious agenda is not pure of heart and is self serving.
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Rhonda
If it is only the business of the woman wanting an abortion...then let her do it on her terms and pay for it herself. Those of us who oppose abortion should not be forced to pay for it with our tax dollars or in any other way. This is a hot topic and there will always be opposing opinions and thoughts about it. So be it if its legal...but I do not want to be paying for someone else's...mistake...defund PP and let them find their own way to stay in business by donations from those of you who are for abortion...put your money where your mouth is and allow those of us who do not wish to be a part of the abortion world be able to not be forced into funding them. That should be our choice just as a woman has a choice to abort and unborn child. This is not about religion or denying choice. It she can choose...so can those who oppose by choosing to not fund abortions.
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Steve Schafir
Ok I am all for defunding it because you don't want to pay for it as long as you are willing to take all the unwanted babies that are born and take care of them until they are 18. This is not about religious beliefs this is about what is right for society. You don't address the burden on society because we will not allow those children to be just be left in the street and die. So if the parents have the children and don't want them they I have to fund them until they are 18. I would much rather pay a one time cost for abortion than to have to pay to raise that child until it is 18. But you don't address that. This is definitely about religion. You ignored the link I posted that show that the bible and religion does NOT mention religion at all.
You don't know what Planned Parenthood does. Abortions are but a small part of what they do. Less than 3 percent. What about the rest of the services they provide? You don't want to pay for anything. You want everyone to pay even if they can't afford it. That is why we need government intervention because we have people that don't care about others. They don't want to take care of those that can't take care of themselves UNLESS they are babies. I can't believe how hateful religious people can be.
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hsw
It is illegal for government funds to be used for abortions. So what's your real objection?
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Steve Schafir
It is not completely illegal. It is allowed in some cases. My point is more to people objecting to abortions overall. This is the issue. People want to defund Planned Parenthood which does more good than harm. It helps people by providing services that people need like family planning, providing condoms and other things to prevent pregnancy. Don't tell me about this. Tell those that want to defund Planned Parenthood that it does not fund abortions. They are the ones that think that it does.
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Kathy
I am for abortion. I am glad they allow it. Today there are to many unwanted pregnancies and too many dumb parents that cannot take care of the kids. Many children are subjected to drugs and illegal activities and end up dead anyways. Or the poor children are used as paychecks for welfare and are not being cared for. Since all the idiots in the white house decided to o.k. the stupid bill to have health care across the board, then yes, it should include abortions, and birth control. In my situation I am glad I did not have to consult a man or church for my decision. I had an abortion, and to this day, I have no regrets!!! Thank God for abortions!!!!!!
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Robin
I will not place myself in a position to judge another. We all have free will and can exercise it as we wish. Who are we to say what is wrong for me is wrong for you.
Personally, I would have never and would never consider abortion for myself. If asked my opinion on the subject. I would say, we all have our own choices to make in life. For me, life is precious in all forms. From conception to 4 weeks a fetus (baby) heart, spinal cord, nervous system, lungs, and gastrointestinal system begin development. For me this show life in the womb. The first trimester a lot is happening to the zygote that formed in the womb as it transforms into a human being. They are alive. At 3 months of 12 weeks, they can move their arms and legs, fingers and toes. They have fingerprints. You can tell if it is a male or female. This certainly is life. Life in the womb. What is the difference between taking it at one stage or another it is still living no matter the stage or the place it is being developed.
The aforementioned is my belief. More science based but my belief. I could not- would not kill that life.
I believe our choices are our own, we have that right. My body is mine and yours is yours. Who is anyone to say what we can or cannot do with our own bodies.
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Pastor Ronald Sarver
The fetus has it's own DNA not to be matched anywhere in the world ever. It has it's own soul and so it is not a part of the mother. Therefore the mother is as God ordered to give birth to the life HE created. No one on this earth has the right to destroy that life of which God created.
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hsw
The mouse you caught in a trap and the spider you smacked with your shoe also have DNA. Science.
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Tom
Since my original comment, I could almost guess where the rest of the comments would lead. From the names alone, I cannot assume the ages of the people posting, but I have learned something very important in the entire discussion about abortion as a nation. It appears that the majority of the people discussing this are men, who will never be faced with the situation, and women who are approaching or have passed child bearing age. Absent from the discussion are those women who are actually faced with the problem and might be considering an abortion, or who have already had one.
We must stop telling people what to do! We cannot walk in their shoes, because the shoes do not fit, not for a few steps or for a mile. To fully understand this problem we need to come face to face with this women and try to understand their plight. We need to reach out to them and offer to help, even if that help is rejected. We must not impose our own religious beliefs upon others. We must understand that the journey toward faith is a personal one and we can only demonstrate our own progress on that journey by our actions toward others. We need not carry signs nor thump bibles, we simply must act in accordance with our individual faiths.
Having met several women in this situation, I have been amazed at the varied reasons for their consideration of abortion. Most people have no idea what is involved, instead, they preach to them. Compassion has been left at home. It is easier to preach than to serve. The wise man once told his followers, "Don't do as I say, do as I do!"
May we all do the right thing.
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hsw
I'm 66 and I spend three months in a home for unwed mothers. There's nothing to be gained by making assumptions based on our perceived ages.
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Rev John
It truly amazes me to see some of the comments about abortion. It seems life, human life means so little to people today, or rather only their life is important. If it takes the killing of another innocent human being to make them happy, to free them from the burden of their error, well that's o.k..Isn't that what the Nazi government did to the Jews,destroyed millions of innocent people and the world was appauled. Here in the U.S.over 55 million abortions have been performed in the name of so-called pro choice.Who makes the choice for the innocent child that has it's brains sucked out and then pronounced dead.If that was a dog or a cat , these good people would be marching up and down the streets in protest. Since this baby is said to be only tissue does the make it o.k. to murder it . We seem to have a huge double standard when it comes to pregnancies, If a pregnant women is shot and killed, the shooter is charged with the murder of two people,but when an abortionist destroys a baby,he isn't charged with anything. I wonder how someone that spends their day, killing babies that have NO CHOICE, how do they sleep at night.How good must it feel to KILL all day long and go home to your family at night and discuss your days work with your family. This is to Kathy, don't thank GOD for abortions, GOD said thou Shall not KILL. Jesus also said that it is better to have a millstone tied around your neck and thrown in the river that to hurt one of these little ones..Don't worry about me judging you, you have already been judged by a power greater than I.
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JO-ANN
BRAVO....WELL SAID!
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Steve Schafir
Wow you can't be more insensitive. How dare you compare the killing of Jews which were living people with abortions which is NOT murder because they are not people. See my post earlier that you ignored that shows the bible does not have any opinion on abortion and does NOT state that the unborn have souls or are people in any way. You don't even know your own religion but that is typical of religious people. They don't even know there own religion and don't see the hypocrisy of their own bible that contradicts itself.
As for comparing a pregnant woman being killed during the commission of a crime to a legal procedure is ludicrous. Do you not see the flaw in your argument? Of course not because you have an agenda and are short sighted. One is a crime and one is not under the laws of the land. We are not run by religion in this country, we are run by laws. How is it that the bible says you can stone to death your son and that the whole village can participate but if you do that in the US you go to jail for murder. You cannot use religion for justification for murder but some try to do that. God does not state whether terminating an unborn baby is murder or not, he does not address whether that is a life inside the woman. It is not stated anywhere in the bible. You should really know what you are talking about before you talk about it.
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JO-ANN
DEAR GOD....EVERYONE KNOWS....JEREMIAH 1:5 Before I formed thee in the womb, I knew you; Before I formed you in the belly, I knew you Webster's Bible......Before I formed thee in embryo I knew thee..... We are enities...souls... already known to our creator.... we then enter into our Mom's body for the birthing process......
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Steve Schafir
If you are going to quote the bible at least get it right. Here is the actual verse.
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
It does NOT say they are entities or souls. That is YOUR interpretation of it. Others may interpret it differently. If you look at a previous post of mine there is a link stating that the bible does not specifically mention anything about abortions, pro or con. So you can interpret it anyway you want that does not mean that the bible or god are against abortions.
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JO-ANN
AND, TO ADD.......WE ENTER INTO OUR VEHICLES FOR LIFE....A VECHILE WITHOUT A SPIRIT ...... IS DEAD .........
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Steve Schafir
I could not find this quote in the bible. Did you just make this up? What vehicle, Ford, Chevy, Chrysler. What you said has nothing to do with abortion or what we are before birth. It is just a justification to control other people's lives.
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JO-ANN
YES I DID MAKE THAT UP..."VEHICLE" ....I like that analogy...but i should have use the term "VESSEL" ....... Each time the Bible speaks of the unborn child there is reference to an actual person, a living human already in existence..... ps...i was thinking of a jaguar 1995 on would work for me!!!!!!
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JO-ANN
Should have used the word "vessel"......but, our creator clearly states that he knew us before we entered into our vessel...
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Steve Schafir
The bible does NOT refer to unborn children as it pertains to life or abortion. I will post my link here again that shows there is nothing in the bible that refers to this. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-joel-hoffman/what-does-the-bible-really-say-about-abortion_b_8076790.html
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JO-ANN
WENT THERE....the article brings out the fact.... that this will not fly for the BIBLICALLY MINDED... personally I feel that so little it written about the unborn and abortion....because GOD ALREADY COVERED IT WITH..."THALL SHALL NOT KILL" BUT, HERE WE GO..... JEREMIAH 20:17 He didn't kill me in the womb, with my mother as my grave.... AMOS 1:13 And God vowed to punish those who....ripped open the women with child... Exodus 21:22, 23 If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman, but, there is no seroius injury, the offender must be fined....If THERE is serious injury, you are to take LIFE FOR LIFE...AND, MY FAVORITE..... PSALM 139:13-16 "your eyes saw my unformed body" I CONCLUDE THAT THERE IS LIFE IN THERE.... ME..NOT YOU...ME...MY FREE WILL AND, I RESPECTFULLY SEE YOU AS HAVING THE SAME FREE WILL AS ME TO CONCLUDE AS YOU SEE IT....ITS OK
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hsw
Jo-Ann, any chance you could stop screaming?
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Rev John
Steve, before you attempt to use the Bible for an argument , you should at least know something about what is in it. Jeremiah 1:5 clearly states the God knew us in the womb. and not as a ball of tissue as you would try to argue. You should at least take a look once at the child in the womb moving around and sucking their thumb and kicking. Surely a person as yourself, who professes to have superior intelligence over the rest of us poor religious people, would recognize a living thing, which you at this time, you think it's o.k. to kill. Jesus said You will know the truth and the truth will set you free. As far as being short sighted , you are describing yourself, you surely aren't looking to the future when you will be judged for your actions. Good luck with that hoss, you will need it.
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JO-ANN
THERE IS NONE SO BLIND...AS THOSE THAT CAN NOT SEE.........JER:21 but, for the GRACE OF GOD...there goes I......YOU DO HAVE A CHOICE...PRAY
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Steve Schafir
I was not using the bible for an argument. I was using it to show that it has no position on abortion which it doesn't. You interpretation of Jeremiah 1:5 is YOUR interpretation and is incorrect in your argument. I did not say we are a ball of tissue. I said we are not people until we are born which is correct and accepted by the medical community. My point is that people need to mind their own business and let people live their lives. It seems for those that are Christians they are very intolerant of others and I don't see where there is any love. They want to control other people's lives and tell them what to do. It is good we have laws in this country to keep people from doing that. I don't know why Christians are so self-righteous and think they have the right to tell others how to live. Live and let live.
I did not say I have superior intelligence. I am saying that the religious have the right to believe as they want and live their lives the way they want. And they should leave others alone to do the same instead of getting into other people's lives and business. Abortion is not killing and is defined as such by the law of the land. We live in the United States where the law supports this. You don't like this then find a country that aligns with your beliefs and go live there.
You are assuming I believe as you believe. Perhaps I don't believe I am going to be judged for my actions. I am not saying I am or am not only that you made an assumption that I am. I do not need luck. I live my life by one very simple premise, I do not harm others, physically, emotionally or psychologically. This has to do with living people that are breathing on their own outside the womb. That is how I define life and the bible does NOT disagree with me.
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JO-ANN
The only reason that I choose to get into this debate...is not for the sake of the argument.....or control you.....first and foremost...we all have free will.....that being said....we know as christians what will happen to those that choose to ignore GODS WORD....simple as that....AND, BECAUSE OF OUR LOVE FOR OUR BROTHERS...WE SPEAK OUT....when this is all said and done and the end of the story unfolds....it will be what is moral....not legal that will prevail...I will leave you alone now...THERE IS NOTHING MUCH MORE TO SAY ANYWAY....I KNOW THAT YOU DON'T BELIEVE AS I DO....I AM NOT ASSUMING IT...I KNOW YOU DON'T...and, thats ok....its ok
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JO-ANN
I have to say....that when we christians speak on behalf of our beliefs.....we are hoping that ......somehow you....not you personally, but the collective you that do not believe...will have an EPHIPHANY....AND, thats the bottom line of why we go on and on about our GOD AND HIS PLAN FOR US!
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Steve Schafir
I am all for you speaking about your beliefs. What I am talking about it is interfering with other people's lives by trying to publicly shame them by standing in front of Planned Parenthood centers and trying to introduce legislation to control other people's lives. It seems that many of us forget what this country was built on and that is a person's freedoms. To be able to live their lives as they wish.
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JO-ANN
THIS NATION MY FRIEND WAS BUILT ON "IN GOD WE TRUST".....BOTH SIDES.....SO TO SPEAK...INTRODUCE LEGISLATION FOR THIER SIDE...A BIGGIE JUST PASSED...AND, THE WHITE HOUSE EVEN HAD LIGHTS TO CELEBRATE.......AND, WHY SHOULD THEY BE PUBLICLY SHAMED IF THEY ARE NOT DOING ANYTHING THAT IS AGAINST THEIR BELIEFS......WHY ARE THEY ASHAME....I ASK YOU....GOVERNOR BROWN IS ABOUT TO EITHER PASS OR VETO A BILL REGARDING RIGHT TO TAKE ONES OWN LIFE WHEN TERMINAL ..WOW...TALK ABOUT THE OTHER END OF THE SPECTRUM....WE HAVE ISSUES COMING IN AND GOING OUT OF EARTH!
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Steve Schafir
Referring to Jo-Ann's comment below. This country was NOT built on "in god we trust". If you read any papers written by the founding fathers they specifically did not mention any specific religion because that is why they left England. They did not want to be controlled by religion and wanted to found this country without any specific religion. In god we trust and under god were not added until the late 1950s/early 1960s. This was done to buckle to the christian minority who wanted it.
You don't understand the laws. It doesn't matter what congress does. The states can and have passed laws for assisted suicide. Go look at Oregon. Also abortion laws are by state as well.
Instead of listening to your ministry do some research and learn the truth. That way you can know what you are talking about.
And stop YELLING. There is a CAPS LOCK key. Use it!!!!!!!
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Minister Carey
JO-ANN September 20, 2015 at 1:05 pm
THIS NATION MY FRIEND WAS BUILT ON “IN GOD WE TRUST”…
Read more at http://www.themonastery.org/blog/2015/08/life-choice-and-planned-parenthood/#bRDYPqXIEHjlDkwS.99
I thought I had found enough humility to leave the conversation relative to abortion alone. Well, it ain't in me at this time. I say, however, that what we ALL (capitalized for emphasis not screaming) think that we know about what Great Spirit, God, Divine Creator, Most High God, Allah, Jehovah, Yawheh, Buddah, froggie, or whoever, wrote/said or decreed is based on our own belief/desire to accept as truth. If it were more than a belief we would be able to prove it. Sound proof. Evidence seen. No controversy. Thus, as I see it, what folk believe is all about perspective. And my perspective on the above statement -- THIS NATION MY FRIEND WAS BUILT ON “IN GOD WE TRUST”… really?. Coming from my indigenous, aboriginal american thinking this Nation was built on THEFT, MURDER, DECEIT, KIDNAPPING, SLAVERY, AND BRUTALITY (yes, I'm screaming now) and let's not forget for the sake of commerce. That's right, for THE LOVE OF MONEY. Did not the 'church' give the edict to Colombo/Columbus (whatever the name is) that all who are not christians (romans) are heathens and can be killed or enslaved? Take the resources by any means necessary and make wealth. See, it's all about perspective.
Really, if “IN GOD WE TRUST” is referring to the Creator of ALL (emphasis) That IS, and if we really trusted this Almighty Power, these conversations would be mute. Any judgments of other folks' actions would be non-existent, and there would be no need for war and the theft of other people's land, the murder and ethnic cleansing of a people, kidnapping, and/or slavery because we would trust that the Creator can and will handle it and can and will take care of all our needs. But then -- that's just my perspective.
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Rhonda
YES!!!!!
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JO-ANN
FAITH IS AN AMAZING .....that comes only by hearing...Hearing the WORD OF GOD...Our CREATOR...His story is unfolding....and, all that you mentioned...the dark side of living on this planet will end....YES... "IN GOD WE TRUST" I am not referring to any religion....JUST GOD, THE BIBLE AND JESUS
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Steve Schafir
We need to understand this country was NOT founded on christian beliefs or principles. It was expressly stated by the forefathers not to be done that way. In god we trust and under god were added after the country was found around the late 1950s. It is only because of the christians these were added to our money and to the pledge of allegiance. Too many people tend to forget that this website is non-denominational it is NOT a christian website. How about everyone be tolerant of others beliefs.
Also if the christians were to follow jesus' example he did not force anyone to believe, did not protest against others or try to guilt people into what he wanted them to believe. He just preached his word and those that followed did and those that didn't did not.
Christians seem to be a very intolerant group as a whole it seems. Do not force your beliefs on the rest of us. Lest us not forget that for such a young religion it has the most violent and bloody history. Do not forget the witch trials.
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hsw
Is there any chance at all that you might at least stop shouting? The only epiphany that's likely otherwise is the realization that we might need earplugs in order to even read the posts.
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JO-ANN
NOW THATS FUNNY!!!! ...added humor to my day...THANK YOU!
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hsw
So I'm going to take that as a "no."
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JO-ANN
It wasn't a no......just enjoyed the humor...thats all!
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hsw
So in order to form our opinion we should use as science a book written by men who believed the world was flat? The fetus is not a person any more than the egg you ate for breakfast is a chicken.
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JO-ANN
In ancient days.....I would have thought it was flat......BUT THE BIBLE TEACHES... ISAIAH 40:22 .... GOD IS SAID TO SIT ABOVE "THE CIRCLE OF THE EARTH" and, in responce to your egg/chcken analogy......we are not animals....but, made in the image of our creator.....so that we may rule over the animals...not take our science lessons from them.
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JO-ANN
AT ANY RATE...not all chickens are fertilized...and, we eat only unfertilized eggs...to be sure....not all women's eggs are fertilized,......but, in either case....once the egg has become fertilized...there is life.....my heart aches for some the the arguments for abortion....we are not to lean on our own understanding.....but, if it were me....and, i had a choice to avoid a vessel that had defects....i know that i would want to wait for another vessel that was going to give me a chance to enjoy life without the complications of a deformed vessel...my heart just aches..I AM CERTAINLY NOT SMART ENOUGH TO HAVE ANY ANSWERS THAT WOULD END THE DEBATE...JUST THIS....I BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE AS GODS WORD TO US AS HARD AS IT IS TO UNDERSTAND AT TIMES....I BELIEVE IN THE ONE AND ONLY GOD AND IN HIS SON JESUS....AND, THE HOLY SPIRIT ...TO ALL OF US THIS MONTH OF SEPTEMBER.....PRAY
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Steve Schafir
How short sighted of you. We definitely are part of the animal kingdom. The bible doesn't even refer to whether man is part of the animal kingdom or not. It does not specifically say we are not. But based on everything that we now know that we are part of the animal kingdom.
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Steve Schafir
Yes we should use science as a book written by men as the bible is a book written by men. Science did believe the world was flat at one time. Then science proved it was not. Science changes when it finds that it is incorrect. Nothing is perfect. Religion thinks that nothing changes and is stagnant in its thinking. But even that is changing. Christianity even recognizes the bible is not to be taken literally and these are stories with lessons. The pope has stated that science should be incorporated into religion and that birth control is not necessarily a bad thing. Eventually religion will admit where it is wrong and will correct itself. Science admits it can make mistakes but corrects them when it needs to.
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Rev John
The Pope never said anything about abortion being used a birth control. However science did say that the Earth was the center of the universe. Science also believes in the so called Big Bang theory, but have no idea what was before this or how it happened. and this you believe. Every word from the mouth of our LORD JESUS holds true to today and will never be disproved. Your lame arguments are just a way to try and justify your belief in killing innocent children that have no choice in what is happening to them. You really need to find another way to justify your guilt.This argument has nothing to do with sensitivity, it has to do with morality.
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Steve Schafir
The point is not whether the pope approves of disapproves of abortion or whether it can be used as a form of birth control. It is about letting people decide for themselves how to live their lives. Science admits it makes mistakes and then corrects those mistakes. Science does say there was nothing before the Big Bang. They have said this on many occasions. Contrary to popular belief there was a beginning to time. There may even be an end but we don't know that yet.
There have been many religious scholars that have disproved some of the things in the bible and have admitted that the bible should not be taken literally. They are more in agreement that the bible was a book written by man for men. They are stating that the stories are to teach lessons.
My arguments are based on facts not "beliefs". The overly religious always take the path that the arguments are lame when they are not. They are based on proven facts. Abortion is not murder and no children are being murdered. That is YOUR interpretation of YOUR beliefs.
I have no guilt. I do not know where you got that from. Do not assign feelings to me that I don't feel. This is just another example of being self-righteous and telling people how they should live their lives and how they should feel and think.
This argument does not have anything to do with sensitivity or morality. It has to do with allowing people to live their lives the way they see fit. In this country that right is given to us. I will say this again. If you don't agree with the laws of the land then go find a country that aligns with your beliefs and go live there.
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Rhonda
I am surprised at some of the rude and curse filled comments. If you all, people who are supposed to be 'spiritual' leaders; where is the acceptance of other beliefs or thoughts that disagree with your own. IF we are still indeed in a free country...which I have my doubts at this point: then a discussion of ideas is , just that, a discussion. Abortion is a topic that will never have 100% agreement for or against. So why all the anger? Is there guilt or self righteousness on both viewpoints? The religious are accused of being closed minded,evil and bigoted if they are against abortion...and those for abortion are accused of the same negative attributes. Why all the name calling and negative dialogue? At this point abortion is 'legal' in the United States. IF this is a Republic and Democratic society, we have the right and responsibility to abolish any law or rule we see as wrong, in the right way. We all have a right to believe differently without being molested or cursed at. I originally wrote about the defunding of PP. I still have a right to not want my tax dollars to go to an institution I do not believe in...for what ever reason. Religious, moral or just because I don't like an entity or person. I do not have the right to judge what others do or don't do. That is the Creators job...whatever that means to another person. I have studies scientifically, and religiously when life begins. I believe it is at conception. If someone else believes differently and a polar opposite of myself I would defend, to the death their right to believe differently. I do that because I believe in freedom and in the Constitution...and in the laws of God and in following the example of Jesus Christ in love and kindness. I still believe in pro choice, but am against abortion. I have personal experiences to bring me to that conclusion, and it is my right to disagree with others and others have a right to disagree with me. None of us deserve some of the unkind or condescending comments written here. If we are here to serve others and help and comfort them in times of real crisis then practicing kindness to those we adamantly disagree with may be a good place to start. I have been in the birthing and healing field for over 30 years and have the honor of attending nearly 400 births as a midwife. I also have been with terrified young women as they had an abortion, even though I did not agree with their decision, I went with them to help them through a difficult time. My job was to educate and inform, then love and support them. I have been cussed at and called names on this site. I am surprised and disappointed at those who proclaim to be soo pen minded , yet vilify anyone who disagrees with them. No matter what someone believes on the subject of abortion they deserve to be heard and do so without abuse. That's my thoughts and opinions for now. Thank you for reading and responding in decent dialogue.
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Steve Schafir
I am only going to respond to the first paragraph because I think the rest of this you wrote was your beliefs and was well thought out and written. The first paragraph is exactly what I was talking about. You have worded it better than I ever could have. Sometimes people forget that there are many religions in this country and throughout the world and they do not all believe the same thing.
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hsw
I am only going to take issue with your perceived "right" not to have your tax dollars go to what you don't believe in. I don't believe in war but my tax dollars go to fund it. I do believe in helping the poor, but whether that happens through my tax dollars is completely dependent on who is signing the checks at the time. I'd like to see my streets repaired instead of some of the other things that get done with the money. My point is, it doesn't work that way, nor should it. We elect representatives to make the best decisions with the best information available to them (which is virtually always more information than what is available to us). If we don't like the decisions they make, we vote for someone else. If enough people agree with us, we put someone else in office. That's the way it works. You don't get to decide directly what happens with your tax dollars, no matter how much fund that sounds, and how much we'd like it to be a "right." Otherwise it would be a popularity contest which in the end, no one would win.
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Lorna
I for one am a christian what others are is not my problem, I have enough on my plate just trying to live the life which I believe God intended me to. I would NOT have an abortion, however, there are reasons I am sure for someone else to take this path. ALL eggs have to be fertalized before they become a living being. So I will continue to eat Chicken eggs. All dialogue is great and I love to hear others opinions.
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Minister Carey
Warning! Warning! -- ALL eggs do NOT have to be fertilized in order to become a living being. Remember 'virgin birth'? Ok, do some research on Parthenogenesis.
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wolfsbane1
The only opinion that matters is the one who is carrying the burden. They alone are the only ones who can decide what fate they will have and no other should decides another fate for them.
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Minister R Sepeda
I am opposed to abortion with certain exceptions. We have come a long way in publicizing what we believe in and what we hear or want to hear. The female might have several reasons to have the abortion, I sympathized with their decision.
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JO-ANN
AMEN....what is that old saying about not being opinionated until you have walked in that person's shoes......IT IS NOT FOR US TO JUDGE FOR SURE...
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John Owens
It is incredible how heartless and cold so much of the discussion here is. If NASA encountered one-celled organisms on another planet or an asteroid, it would be a GREAT discovery. People worry about seals and eagles and spotted owls and kangaroo rats, bears, polar bears and whales, and do not give one tinker's damn about innocent babies who have not yet been born. "Because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." "...without natural affection." James and Jude knew exactly what they were saying.
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Lorna
I for one would NOT abort my baby and I would wish that my family would feel the same.
THIS INDEED IS A DELEMA OF BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS. THERE ARE TWO SIDES TO THIS COIN. ONE GIVE UNTO CEASER, AND GIVING UNTO GOD. THE SWORD OF SOLOMAN, WHICH WAY DO WE DEVIDE THIS CHILD. THERE ARE GOOD REASONS TO LET THE CHILD LIVE. MANY ON THIS EARTH ARE DENIED GIVING BIRTH. TO MANY ROAD BLOCKS EXSIST TO ADOPTION. ALSO DO WE WASTE A CHIDS LIFE THAT MAY BE A SAVIOR OF MANKIND. NEW RESEARCH, NEW CURES, SOMEONE TO END WARS AND PROVIDE PEACE. THE INDIVIDUAL HAS A RIGHT TO CHOOSE FOR THEM SELVES TO DO GOOD OR EVIL. THEY MUST FACE JUDGEMENT LATER FOR THEIR CHOICES. I CAN UNDERSTAND MEDICAL COMPLICATIONS. WHERE THE MOTHER NEEDS TO LIVE TO TAKE CARE OF HER OTHER CHILDREN. RAPE AND INCESS I HAVE SEEN DESTROY FAMILIES. BETTER LAWS ARE NEEDED FOR CRIMES AGAINST ANY CHILD OR ADULT. FEDERAL INVESTAGATION IS NEEDED TO SEE IF THIS ORGINISATION IS DOING ITS JOB ACCORDING TO MAN'S LAW AND GOD'S HOLLY LAW. PASTOR KEITH MARTIN
I am a grandmother of an aborted grandchild. I would rather remember waking up for two o clock feedings and rocking my grandchild to sleep than to remember my loss through abortion. I named him Daniel. Not a day goes by that I do not pray for his loss. It does not matter whether you believe in God or not. Abortion is sorrowful for everyone.
He will meet with you in heaven and hears your prays
Pray is a verb. The noun is prayer - plural prayers.
Daniel will be waiting with hugs for you. God Bless!
I don't believe in heaven but I do believe in helping others and that is what this really is about. The fetal tissue is used to save many other lives.
So it is ok to take from another human life to save another human life. This is a double standard. I have to disagree with you. God said "I knew you BEFORE you were FORMED in the womb.
You don't believe in heaven, You don't believe in God.
He said he doesn't believe in heaven, not in god - what's your point?
Myra is correct.
DAVID, in a poem or lyric, said God had known him in utero. Poetic. Not literal. Ego-centric, too. Literalists might consider: if the soul is imperishable, and a fetus has a soul, doesn't God salvage that soul if the fetus does not survive through gestation? And is not that soul sinless? A just God would not lay any blame against the sinless soul, but would preserve it and grant it eternal life in the presence of God. And eternal life is the best outcome for every soul, is it not? Another poet, Wordsworth, said "Life is but the isthmus between two eternities." (His notion was that God has a big stash of souls waiting for births to take place so they can be implanted. Anti-abortionists would have it that the soul is installed at conception.)
I shamefully share that I am the mother of an aborted child. I can not and will not make any excuses for my decision. There is not a day that goes by that I don't grieve the loss of that child. After my poor choice, I have NEVER advised any woman to abort their child. I would never have made that same choice again. Abortion is sorrowful for everyone. Yet, in our Lord's Infinite Forgiveness I was blessed with four beautiful children. A daughter and two sons, and my precious lost child that I had miscarried, and the fifth that I , for right or wrong, gave back to God. I can understand both sides of this issue, but for today and always I will forever oppose abortion. May God Bless all who struggle with this issue.
Learn to speak before you attempt to shout. Grammatical usage is atrocious.
Really? A topic so intense and all you can do is bring up people's "atrocious grammar?
Rather callous of you
Typical pseudo-intellectual obfuscation.
I eschew obfuscation.
That's so funny, Dave! Sorry I just now saw it, going back over old blogs.
I will start my comments by stating that I am pro choice. Without judgement, but rather compassion, my heart aches for anyone - young, old, single, married, victim of crime or victim of circumstance that ever has to make that choice. I cannot believe that anyone who has ever considered the "choice" of abortion to have a nonchalant attitude, nor do I believe that person would ever live a a day without regret and sadness for the rest of their lives for the "choices" made. It is a shame for any woman to find herself having to consider abortion. Moreover though, I find it shameful if not sinful for people to pass judgement and so quickly to condemn. I pray for more compassionate hearts.
I know several women, 6 from RAPE that disagree with your regret statement. I also know family members who also disagree with the regret statement. In fact, a study reported by time states that only 5% have any regret at all. http://time.com/3956781/women-abortion-regret-reproductive-health/
I agree totally & also believe that it is a sacred decision between the mother & God. it is not for others to decide, or pontificate upon.
Until the fetus is capable of living outside the womb, it is a fetus, not a baby. If a woman, upon weighing her circumstances, chooses to terminate this being that is not capable of living on its own, she is choosing to terminate a being that is, in truth, a parasitic part of herself. Some make this choice readily, some make it with sorrow. Why they choose and what follows that choice are not my business. My business is to stay out of the reproductive choices of others and tend to my own business. After this little being in the making is born and breathing on its own, society can claim that it is the business of the state to deny the right to terminate what is now a separate, breathing child. And society owes this new being a welcoming, caring world. Providing that is part of my business. And I would give comfort and kind counsel to the mother if, having chosen abortion, she has regrets and self-recriminations.
I agree with most of your beautifully stated comment. I too, know several women who have made the choice to terminate their pregnancies and only a few regret the decision. There are as many reasons to make that choice as there are women MAKING the choice. Regardless, none of them took this lightly. Only one person I know who contemplated abortion, actually changed their mind and took the pregnancy to term. It is a PERSONAL decision which should remain between the woman and her conscience.
Okay, why not? It’s very likely a waste of my time.
Do try to stay out of the way, Pastor Martin. And don't play in traffic. We have all had it up to here with the lazy, sub-literate moralizing you plainly exhibit as simply another troglodytic vagabond for lunacy. Live with the Bronze Age desert tribes and their Kalashnikovs, if you like, but try not to bother real people with gibberish.
You, sir, are an embarrassment.
The great challenge for any faith is survival on a planet where so much awfulness has been done by pals of sky gods and debils riding flaming horses that nasty doom-and-gloom religionists have not the slightest notion they’re no longer wanted, no longer thought helpful or even amenable, that their toothless threats and idiocies no longer frighten the great unwashed. That when they call themselves PASTOR, they instantly invalidate everything they afterwards mumble and shout.
Appearances suggest, however, that you’re so far down the well no one will ever hear you. Or if they do, they’ll toss down farm animals after you.
When you’re tempted to speak, try to listen.
Listen to our Great Science. Listen to the muons and gravitational singularities, listen to whispering stars and night winds, and snowdrops. Atoms from Stalin’s last breath still circulate in our atmosphere. The Gaia is all. Not the book. Not the standard voo-doo. Not cherubs. Not mangers.
“And we are here as on a darkling plain/Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,/Where ignorant armies clash by night.”
Yes a Fetus is a Person. Every new life begins at conception. This is an indisputable fact of biology. It is true for animals and true for human’s beings. When considered alongside the law of biogenesis – that every species reproduces after its own kind – we can draw only one conclusion in regard to abortion: every single abortion ends the life of an innocent human being. God told Jeremiah that, before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou comes forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Jeremiah 1:5
Every single rat reproduces after its own kind, yet we set out traps and poison. What's your point?
How you adduce your facts is debatable at best, The facts of when life begins has been argued for centuries, The book that you are quoting could be a funny book for all the changes in copy. DO NOT pass judgement on other people or play judge on what is right and wrong.
God told Jeremiah that, before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou comes forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Jeremiah 1:5
I am a father of five and a Grandfather of 12 these 17 Blessing in my life that, my father God has blessed me with the thought of what little life's characters pastors,minister Dr.,Parents to kid's that had none.so many That would grow to love and be loved by are father God they all have a right to life...........I can't talk bout this only Pray. .........