A South Carolina pastor has used the Body of Christ to make a stand against Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden's own stance on abortion.
Father Robert E. Morey denied the former vice president holy communion during Sunday morning mass at his Saint Anthony Catholic Church, apparently finding no contradiction in refusing to allow the Catholic politician to partake in Jesus' ultimate act of forgiveness.
Religious Refusal
"Sadly, this past Sunday, I had to refuse Holy Communion to former Vice President Joe Biden," explained Morey to SC Now. "Holy Communion signifies we are one with God, each other and the Church. Our actions should reflect that. Any public figure who advocates for abortion places himself or herself outside of Church teaching."
That rebuke came after Biden publicly objected to South Carolina's proposal to ban abortions after six weeks of pregnancy, even in cases of rape or incest - a bill that was approved by the state's South Senate Medical Affairs subcommittee in a 4-3 vote split along party lines, but expected to face obstacles on the full Senate floor.
"Let's be clear, this ban is dangerous and directly violates a woman's constitutional right to choose," Biden tweeted. "We must stop it. As president, I will codify Roe into federal law and ensure this choice remains between a woman and her doctor."
"If Only Saints"
In the end, Biden paid for taking a stand on this issue with a very public embarrassment. However, not all Catholics are lining up to condemn the presidential candidate. In fact, some big names in Catholic leadership chose to side with him. Cardinal Timothy Dolan, Archbishop of New York, said that while he "admires" other Catholics taking a stand, one's stance on a single political issue shouldn't disqualify them from receiving communion.
"If only saints could receive Holy Communion, we wouldn't have anybody at Mass, including myself," Dolan explained.
Meanwhile, a group of liberal-leaning Catholics started an online petition condemning Father Morey's decision. "Holy Communion is not a tool for punishing political opponents. We have seen this despicable behavior before, used by right-wing clergy to attack John Kerry and Tim Kaine," it reads.
Biden's Complex Pro-Choice History
To be clear, Joe Biden's public stance on abortion has evolved significantly over the years.
As a freshman senator in 1974, he insisted the Supreme Court's Roe v. Wade decision "went too far," insisting he believes a "woman has the sole right to say what should happen to her body." In 2006, he called abortion a "tragedy", clarifying in a book he wrote the following year that his own personal opposition to abortion aside, "I don't think I have the right to impose my view on something I accept as a matter of faith on the rest of society." To many, the fact that Biden has begun to speak out against states fighting to overturn Roe v. Wade may be simply a savvy political calculation as he fights to be the Democratic nominee in 2020. The fact he recently dropped his long time support for the Hyde Amendment that blocks federal funding for abortions is only further proof.
Nor are Biden's Catholic Church troubles anything new. Back when he was running as Obama's VP in 2008, his own Pennsylvania hometown bishop insisted Biden would be banned from taking Communion in his diocese. In fact, two Catholic bishops made a similar declaration regarding Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry in 2004.
Soul Discretion
The denial may be justified by Canon 915, a provision of church law stating that those "obstinately persevering in manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to Holy Communion." Still, many Catholic leaders have been reluctant to single out pro-choice politicians in this way, given their tendency to also run afoul of Church teachings on capital punishment, immigration, and climate change.
So is Father Morey right to take a stand here?
The priest may insist he is responsible for the souls entrusted to his care, that he must enact that faith even in the most difficult situations. But was this the best way to do it?
Would Jesus have expected any of his followers to be turned away so coldly, without mercy; denied a sacrament that serves as the focal point of every Catholic Mass, "so that sins may be forgiven," to quote His own words?
Should our religious leaders take personal politics into account when saving souls?
114 comments
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Michael Mangold
I'm not Catholic but that is certainly the priest's right. Jesus was about forgiveness of sin AND the concomitant turning away from sin or repentance. Killing babies is a sin, so yes.
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Lori
So is molesting children. The Catholic church leaders just shuffled the sicko priests around to avoid problems. The church has no right to judge anyone.
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sibyltheheretic
Did Joe actually kill any babies?
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Lori
Good point. PRO-CHOICE is the correct wording, not pro-abortion.
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Allen
Wrong.
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Lori
So you believe in taking away women's rights to choose what they do with their bodies? You believe in government control over our private lives? You believe women should be kept in the proper place and forced to do what Christianity dictates?
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Lori
Or are you just coming from an ignorant place and don't know any better? We'll know by your response Allen.
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Allen
Is Abortion \Infanticide?
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Lionheart
Ask God. He’s really good at infanticide. He has no problems with it.
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Lori
Did the Catholic church support pedifiles?
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Rev. Brien
Yeah, gonna go with Lori on this one. Be careful not to cast stones in a glass house.
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Lori
You've got it!
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Michael Mykita
Precisely. The Catholic Church also believes in healing the sick, so Republicans against expanding Medicare should be denied, too. The Church is against divorce, so anyone who is simply in favor of the right to divorce should be denied communion, too.
Or, as Dolan said, communion should not be restricted only to saints.
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sibyltheheretic
My experience with the Catholic church has been "if your not Catholic, your not welcome". I don't think that this is what Jesus was teaching.
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Rev. Elizabeth S. Arsenault
You are 100% correct. Here is my response to another here... "Not necessarily arawngraalrd. I personally will never turn away from anyone wanting communion. That is between the recipient and God. Nowhere in the bible does it say that no one can receive the Holy Communion. It is encouraged to receive the communion. A person of cloth is not supposed to put their rights to anyone. We are a vessel of God and we need to honor that commitment. Jesus would have given him the communion. My granddaughter’s first communion in the catholic church was beautiful. Even though I am not catholic, I attended. When it was time to received communion, I went to receive communion as well. When the priest learned that I was a non-catholic and a minister of the Christian faith, he went beserk and started yelling that I sinned and he actually poked me in the chest more than once. So he also assaulted me. Had no one told him I was a minister of a Christian faith, he would have never known. I did tell this priest that if he came to me asking me for communion I would not turn him away. Wow, it was crazy. In the bible we are to receive communion daily and this priest was wrong for turning Biden away. No one should be denied. I always ask if they asked for forgiveness of their sins in Jesus name and then I give communion. It is on them if they lied to me and God. So I don’t agree with what that priest did and I don’t agree with your response, respectfully. God Bless."
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Maria
First of all, ABORTION IS MURDER!!! Whether at conception, 4 weeks, four months or after and whether it’s rape or insest!
If the church does not take a stand then they are just as guilty of sin!
So what the Priest did was right on! But that’s barely a slap in the hand. I would ban anyone from my church who thought abortion or any kind was ok!
Anyone who is NOT ProLife does not deserve to be affiliated with ANY religious institution that worships GOD.
That’s my opinion and will not argue it so don’t waste your breathe commenting as I won’t respond.
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Anna Brown
Maria, Ok, stick your fingers in your ears and say “LA LA LA LA”
This response is for others so please don’t read it.
Let’s assume you would call yourself a Christian. I would say you have little if any compassion or empathy for your fellow humans.The tradition of ancient Jews was that babies, real, out-of-the-womb babies were not considered people until a month AFTER their birth. Any time before birth, babies were not counted as people.
The god of the OT kills thousands of babies and even orders pregnant women to be sliced open. As if that wasn’t bad enough with all the killing and slaughter, the god of the OT tells a husband who suspect his wife is caring a child not of his blood, to take her to the temple and have the priest administer a drink that will abort the child and render the woman barren.
I’m sure you are aware that about 70% of human embryos fail to implant and thus abort. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5443340/
If you think your god created this world and everything in it, you also know that makes your god the biggest abortionist EVER!
Sure glad other religious people don’t have your narrow, black & white, no shades of gray viewpoint.
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Lionheart
Oh please don't tell them that Anna, they want to think that their god is one of peace and beautiful light. They only want to read and know about all the good stuff that is taught at the pulpit from a guy in a black dress wearing a white collar that has selected the nice bits for them to hear to keep them attending.
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Clarke Alexander
And keep the money flowing
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Allen
No communion for Joe? Amen.
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Lori
I think he'll be just fine without out it.
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Bill Kinsland
The Roman Catholic Church is a monument to hypocrisy. This is the same church in which thousands of its priests have repeatedly abused and sexually assaulted children...and instead of turning them over to law enforcement, they hide them and move them around to a different parish or monastery. The abuse of children in the Roman Catholic Church is endemic and a matter of public record. Nor is this their only crime against humanity. During World War II, the church actually sanctioned and supported the murder of hundreds of thousands of Serbian Orthodox Christians, Jews and Roma people in Croatia....almost half of whom were CHILDREN.....Most of those murders were carried out by Franciscan clergy at the Jasenovac death camp and in surrounding villages. The commandant at the Jasenovac camp was FATHER TOMASLAV FILIPOVIC. The president of the Croatian Ustase government who ordered these murders was a devout Roman Catholic...Ante Pavelic. This massive genocide was carried out with the full knowledge of Pope Pius XII and several top clergy within the Roman Catholic Church, including Cardinal Giovanni Montini (later to be elected as Pope Paul VI). When the Croatian Ustase state failed in 1945, Pius XII personally protected and hid Pavelic and his henchmen at the Vatican at Castel Gandolfo and in the College of San Girolamo....and provided them with safe passage to Buenos Aires, Argentina where they were warmly welcomed by Cardinal Antonio Caggiano....and Juan Peron! To this very day, the Catholic Church has NEVER APOLOGIZED....NEVER DONE PENANCE FOR THESE MURDERS!....and this is only the beginning.
-Over the centuries, the church has condemned thousands of people to be burned to death, hanged, or publically disemboweled for the "crimes" of heresy or witchcraft!
-Having grown up in the Roman Catholic Church and having been victimized by some of its priests...and witnessed their cruelty to some of their parishioners over the years, I am a personal witness to this massive hypocrisy.
-I would tell Mr. Biden that his talents and abilities are worthy of a better church.
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Jeremy
Small bites are easier to chew.
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Tom B
Respectfully...first of all; no one's soul "needs saving"...that idea (of saving) even seems contrary to the ULC precept....we all work through our lives resolving our karma; we must balance out the negativity we caused in previous lifetimes...many times we stray and act out of egotism to create harm; this does not make our souls bad or in need of saving...the efforts by religions to define who needs to be "saved" are just another extension of their exercising power...second; there is no such existence as a "bad soul"...we are all on the same path...while we deal with our karma, we concurrently have some free will; we always have the choice of being loving, compassionate and forgiving...third; if a religion really cared about a member, it would be trying to positively show the member why love, compassion and forgiveness are the only sure path to enlightenment...it would not mete our punishment...Peace... Tom B
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Lori
Yes, peace Tom.
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Tom B
Lori...thank you...it took some time and my sending reminders to get the comment posted...while most religions have some darkness in them, what i believe/know has none, so i do not understand the delay...but the bottom line is the posting...sadly, most believe in concepts of an autocratic "God", evil, and some version of hell, hopefully we will one day get past these concepts...Peace...Tom B
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Lori
I agree. It's time for people to recognize that the universe is not just about them and their particular perception. It's not about the BS that has been handed down from generation to generation. They just don't understand what "inflicted fear" actually is, so they cling to it like desperate little children. They also cling to the concept of evil. It seems to give them something to do battle with. It gives them some kind of distorted sense of purpose. Peace to you, Tom
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Tom B
Lori...thank you again...i agree with what you wrote....almost everyone finds it easier to "find" some enemy, opposition, issue, etc, rather than take the time to actually try to realize the universe/God...it is almost that the world puts a premium on anger and being argumentative, as opposed to peace and eventual enlightenment...Peace...Tom B
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Tom B
Joseph...where is my commen?t...thank you Tom B
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Tom B
Joseph...please post my comment...you have had enough time to read it, and it is a valid outlook on religion, that should not be censored...Tom B
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Tom B
Again...why isn't my comment officially posted?...is this not the ULC?
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Tom B
If the ULC refuses to post my comment, please explain, so i do not have to call there...thank you...Tom B
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Tom B
Thank you for finally publishing my comment...it renews my faith in the ULC being non-judgmental...Peace...Tom B
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Lionheart
Who really cares if Joe Biden was denied a cracker and a sip of wine by a caped crusader pretending to be a mouthpiece for a deity. He can get plenty at the local store. It’ll serve him just as well, and he can drink out of his own glass without fear that someone else has had his/her greasy unhygienic lips on the cup.
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Anthony
That was an intellectually barren response.
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Marsha Bird
Abortion was legalized so women wouldn't try to do it to themselves. Let's face this fact: Do we want to go back to coat hanger abortions? I am pro life... For ME. Others must make this choice on their own. I don't want teenage girls killing themselves and their babies with coat hangers. It's not for me to judge, but whatever God they follow... That's who should judge. I don't see how killing two people (the mother AND the child) is a better alternative. I would never have an abortion, but I am done raising my children. I also would like to say that unwanted children brought into the world lead a very bleak existence most of the time. I have thought about both sides of the issue. I wish this was a perfect world and all children were wanted. That's not the case. I find comfort that these unborn children are loved by the Creator, and will be welcomed into his arms.
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Dawn Pisturino
If a woman chooses to self-abort, against the teachings of most religions, that is HER CHOICE, but that doesn't make it the right choice.
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Kevin Reilly
Come to the Episcopal Church, Joe. All are welcome. -Rev. Kevin +
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sibyltheheretic
My experience with the Catholic church has been "if your not Catholic, your not welcome".
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Allen
Mr. Satan Lionheart. You disappoint me you didn't answer my question.Don't you have an answer?
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Allen
Lori, the problem with all churches, is they are operated by people, and many make many mistakes. The sad thing was that by not taking steps to correct the problem, it only encouraged it. Also, I don't believe they had any idea how widespread it was. Please understand I'm not a Catholic, but I'm not protesting them either.
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Maurice Slaunwhite
Everyone has the right to free religion and it doesn't matter who you are and it does not matter what religion you also are. Just leave it to the one who created us all Amen God bless you all.
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James Grainger
I find it repulsive that the church wants to involve itself in politics. Refusal of holy communion goes against everything the church stands for. The Catholic Church should be ashamed.
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Allen
The Bible teaches that you should be right with God, confess your sins and then you can take communion. When Jesus forgave anyone, he generally added, go forth and sin no more. Is abortion Infanticide? If it Isn't, then when does life begin? At Conception, or three weeks later or, eight months later, perhaps the day of delivery, maybe after eight days? If it is infanticide; then promoting it is a sin. Does that mean that Mr. Joe should declare his sins to God and quit doing them? When you take communion, do you confess, in your heart to God, that you will sin no more, and if you inadvertently do, then do you asked for forgiveness next time? For a repeat of your old sin or a new one? Who has the greater sin? The doctor who killed the baby? Or the one that wanted the baby killed? Is that priest condemned because he believed that for Joe to take communion was a sin? This is probably a good subject for Satan Lionheart, as I'm not qualified to do so. Please backup any comments with Scriptures, after all that is the minister's handbook.
The statement below is what a very able minister said about Communion.
"Finally, many Christians do not feel worthy of taking communion because of their sin. But the Christian should realize that communion is for sinners, for Christians who are sinners.
It is not that communion makes sinning okay. The Christian should always war against his sin, but Christians should not withhold themselves from the table if they are trying to repent of their sins and are struggling to gain victory but have not yet attained it.
It is the struggle against sin that is an admission that we must depend upon Christ and his grace. In our struggle, we judge sin to be sin and war against it. It is precisely this struggle that is a vindication of our position with Christ and a manifestation of our need for communion as an act of dependence upon His work and grace." Allen
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Dawn Pisturino
It's not politics, it's the teachings of the Church and Christianity! Does nobody read the Bible or the teachings of Jesus Christ anymore?
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Lionheart
I used to read the Bible, that’s what turned me off religion. I hated the gory stories and it had a real crazy ending. I found the Harry Potter books much more entertaining with a far better moral thread with no stoning and slavery, and better still, each chapter was understandable for all ages.
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Pastor Dave
When did Jesus deny himself to ANYONE? Isn't he the one who would spend time with the very people that the religious leaders shunned. Sounds like someone needs to review their own faith and how it aligns itself with Christ's teachings.
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Michael Gwinn
The Roman Catholic Church is NOT, by any means, a Christian institution. It is a Pagan institution filled of idolatry, needless ritual and hypocrisy. It preys on people by masking this behind the name of Jesus. I would rather read five verses in the Bible than listen to five Masses in the cathedral.
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Rev. Robin Marie Chernault DDD
This is so wrong! So if you aren’t a “good”Catholic you can’t take commune. Give a break! In a chur h plagued with child molestation! Do these priests get refused communion?
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The Messenger
I know what scripture says pertaining to the partaking of unleavened breads,and it's on the of Passover, followed by 7 days of the feast days. Not on first Sundays (1st. Day of the week) of every month and all year around. So I'm Judging in right ruling, no one should be. And it's for those whom are set apart. Only on Passover. "Do this often in remembrance of me" statement from YaHushuwah on the he was hung up on the stake. So those of you who are without sin.... Cast the first stone! HalleluYah
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Pastor Chukuma
New York's Cardinal Dolan said it best,"If only saints could receive Holy Communion, we wouldn't have anybody at Mass including myself (himself)". In spirit oof Xtian brotherhood we would suggest to South Carolina's Fr. Corey to adopt a less holier-than-thou stance on this his narrow interpretation of Communion.
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Kathleen Metevier-Rizza
I'm Catholic. According to all the rules prior to Pope Francis, since I'm divorced (and remarried outside of the Catholic church) I'm not "allowed" to take Communion when I go to church. I take it, and will continue to do that. No church (or "Church", if you prefer) has the right to tell that I can have communion. I'm assuming if God has a problem with me taking communion, he'll shoot me down with a lightning bolt to prove his point. BOO!
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Darryl Mizer
Spiritual and religious matters are personal, not political; it's expressing freedom in the most literal sense.
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Lionheart
But is it expressing real “freedom” when people are tied to a deistic dictator?
He’s very much a “do as I say, not as I do”, type of guy. And if you don’t do as I tell you, you will be sent to a lake of fire and brimstone for eternity.
If he was real he wouldn’t be the type of god I would ever want to follow. He’s one very scary dude!
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Preacher Man
If you take communion without true repentance, what exactly have you accomplished? I would say nothing at all.
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Dawn Pisturino
An excellent answer. In fact, taking communion without true belief or repentance is just hypocrisy.
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Clarke Alexander
All religious organizations should lose their tax exempt status. More and more religious leaders are practicing politics in their places of worship. Religion is all about control. Control of what you say, think, do and control of your money. God, whoever he/she/it is to you does not need your money but the religious leaders do.
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Tom B
Clarke...well said...i agree with you...Peace...Tom B
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Dawn Pisturino
Expounding Christian doctrine which happens to conflict with others' beliefs is not politics.
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Allen
Hang in there Dawn, don't let Satan Lionheart bug you, he's on here as a pseudo-preacher. There's a few others that should read the Bible and use that as a guideline on what we are to do and believe if we are trying to be Christians. Peace Allen
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Kristine
I am nobody to judge anyone or their religion. Our souls are all on different levels of spirituality. So, all religions are needed for that reason. I would never want to be Catholic due to the rules, exclusions, demands and manipulations. But that is only me. If he wants to be Catholic, he will be subject to all that the Catholic Church teaches.
I personally would never belong to a church that made me feel inferior. Why I love the Universalist Society. I'm human and make human mistakes. And Jesus knows this and loves me and you just the same.
If Joe is distraught enough by this latest exclusion, he is welcome to find another church.
Church and State don't mix. This is an just example.
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Allen
Lol, weekly communion was fabricated by man. It is not in the instructions of Yahwah. Nothing the Catholic Church does is in the instructions of Yahwah. The Catholic church has adopted many Pagan practices. What you practice is what you are. For all who believe in the Bible, the Bible explains that there are only two religions. The one who worships Yahwah is a Yahudah. The other religion covers all the practices as pagan. Yahudah follow the instructions given to Moshe. If the Catholic Church refuses anyone the man-made communion idea, it's fine with me. Shalom y'all
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Rev. Tim
Any church that actively facilitates the systemic rape of children has a bit of a moral authority deficit.
Also, given that the bible contains instructions and a recipe for inducing an abortion, why is the church defying God's stated will?
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Rev. Tim
Any church that actively facilitates the systemic rape of children has a bit of a moral authority deficit.
Also, given that the bible contains instructions and a recipe for inducing an abortion, why is the church defying God's stated will?
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David
Matthew 7:1
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DJ
I agree with Biden. And, communion should not be used as a punishment.
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Ron Stark
Wow, this is one HOT topic! How the matter is viewed seems to be the key. Even the Catholic Church is not clear on the matter. Perhaps it’s time the matter be sorted out once and for all?
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Minister Tom
It is astonishing to me the level of hate and vitireol that is in these comments. Yes it is true that the Roman Catholic church is a far from perfect institution, however this Priest was following the doctrine of the church. You cannot have it both ways, either you are a Catholic and follow the tenents of the Church or you do not. You don't just do things and live your life because they are politically popular at the moment. Holy Communion is a Sacrement, not just a cracker and some grape juice. If Mr Biden no longer believes in the Catholic church's doctrine, perhaps he should find a new house of worship more inline with his current belifes. As I did. Forgive my spelling. And God Bless.
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Brother Sean
Greetings Brothers and Sisters, The focus originally was on the decision of Father Morey denying Joe Biden Holy Communion. The replies took a turn to the molestation of children within the Catholic faith, and abortion. The key point is made in Kelly M. Kapic's book A Little Book for New Theologians. Kapic reminds us that theologians, priests, clergy etc. are people too, and are sinners because people are sinners. We are living in a Fallen world. If you are not religious, then the 20th century alone has had more mass murder on a global scale arguably then any other century. The problem of evil needs to be retitled the problem of people because as far as I can tell it has always been people wanting to do the killing, tormenting, domination, global domination, infanticide and genocide. Humans are xenophobic, malevolent, hateful and ungrateful creatures. In addition, humans are sometimes very unlovable.
The classic excuse the devil made me do it will never serve as a valid defense. If we are honest with ourselves, the church is tthe Holy Place. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit represent the Holy of Holies. The church and its congregation represent the Outer Courtyard. The implication here is Christ was the atonement and sacrifice for sin. We all have a choice to believe in him or not. Therefore, you cannot blame God or Christ for the sick actions of humanity. Humanity has corrupted religion and everything that was once pure or sacred.
Tyranny is evil in all of its forms. Molestation is evil, and violates the basic tenet of Common Law. Our rights end where another persons begins. Abortion is a moral issue that has become political and social. Personally, I believe that the zygote / embryo is designed to be born or result in a miscarriage. A woman has the right to decide, and I think rape would constitute a valid reason. However, the more sinister partial birth abortion will never get a thumbs up from me. My viewpoints are not important. What is important is, "Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah" (Jude 1:11, NKJV). See also Matthew 24:37. "But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." I am not preaching a sermon, but those two verses affirm the depravity of humanity and speaks to our moral reprehensibility. These are my thoughts of the much bigger picture.
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Minister Tom
Thank you Pastor Sean, that was one of the most insightfull things I have read all day
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Keith
People forget the Catholic Church is not forgiving. When we had talked to our priest about my wife getting her tubes tied we were told you can’t come here any longer.so getting told he can’t have communion for believing in abortion it is not a big deal. Some think that anyone can do anything and it’s fine then scream when it’s not.
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The.Rev.Robert Whittaker
No one should be denied the Body and Blood of our Savior,Jesus said "do this in remembrance of me til I come again"It's at Jesus' invitation that we come to His Holy Feast.
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Lionheart
I hate to break it to you Robert but, if he ever really existed, he’s as dead as Monty Pythons parrot.
Did you ever see that sketch? The seller of the parrot insists it wasn’t dead, just asleep. It’s hilarious! Same scenario Robert!
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Jeremy
If his belief is that communion should be denied then his choice should be respected. The mans position in society does not raise him above the law of men or God.
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Oh Mo
Communion - religiously approved cannibalism. Know what? There are no christian god-given rules against it.
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Charlene Pedersen
God gave Humanity “Free-Will.” Yet, we still choose to practice “free judgment.” Interfering with personal choices is infringement Upon the gift of free-will. We must learn to agree to disagree with grace. When we insist upon imposing our personal views against another’s personal views, we declare war on free-will...a gift bestowed upon us from God... We are challenging God’s Wisdom, by challenging His gift to us. We still believe that judgment is ours to impose...it is not. When our time comes to access accountability for our actions...thoughts...words...deeds...there is ONLY ONE...God. We must remember that Jesus did not hold His followers or the population hostage, or entrap them, use against them, resent them or condemn them with his teachings...He respected their right to free-will.
Followers of Christ KNOW the struggle of the journey...we fight the battles which rage within, everyday...and mange those which break out about us, everyday. Do we need to create excess by minding another’s Cross? Let go and let God...Support with love...not judgment.
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Lionheart
"When we insist upon imposing our personal views against another’s personal views, we declare war on free-will…a gift bestowed upon us from God… "
That's just it, Christians don't have free will, they are tied to doing as they are told by their deist dictator, or risk an eternity in Hell. How can that be a gift?
"...there is ONLY ONE…God". Which god would that be then? Is it the one that killed little children, and drowned pregnant women and children, and condones slavery, and condones stoning a man to death for picking up sticks on the sabbath? If it's him, I think I'll pass. If I ever met him I would stamp on his sandaled foot and punch him squarely on the nose.
Tell him I say Hi when you next talk to him, and tell him I think my morals are better than his. You see, the difference between him and me is that if I saw a person raping a child I would do something about it. Him, on the other hand, either wants it to happen, or couldn't care less.
Anyway, carry on worshipping him, I'm sure he loves it, and needs it, his ego is HUGE!
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Brother Sean
Ridiculous if people have free will, then all people have free will. There is no switch any worldview can turn on or off. Life is a gift. We all have choices to make. Some decide to do evil, and some decide to try and do what is right. So, even Christians have free will regarding sin, especially addiction. People suffer from the same evils. Let that be stated very clearly. We do not need to suppose the supernatural or God to see evil committed by humans on earth creating hell on earth. There is no Christian dictator. There is an Islamic dictator with its own law sharia. Where the caliphate presides gays are stoned if caught in their acts. Now, is that Allah stoning or Muslims stoning people?
Lionheart your logic is so flawed, and I am not sure you will be able to overcome your fallacies. First you argue from a position of no God. Okay great, you can defend that position. However, your mind and logic jumps back to presuppose God when you reference the Flood account. So is there a God , or not. Your worldview seems logically inconsistent. Though people tend to be selfish by nature, selfishness will not work here you cannot deny there is a God in worldview then presuppose a God when it is convenient for your argument. Even Richard Dawkins would be sick by that platform.
If you know any of the biblical narrative of the Old Testament, then the first two humans of the parable were brothers born on earth. The evil brother Cain murders the good righteous brother Able. God shows mercy on Cain by banishing his wretched cursed existence to Nod. Cain's descendants build cities and forge weapons of war. However, Cain was evil and murderous and bloody violent. His descendants were also. I believe in Genesis chapter 6 there is mention of the Nephilim on earth before and after the flood. Sounds like a gene pool problem and abominations of the human race walking around referred to as giants.
Noah had three sons Shem, Japheth and Ham. Ham sins against Noah potentially incest with his mother or an act of homosexuality with his father. Ham's was the third son youngest son of Noah, and Ham's third son Canaan receives a curse to be slaves to his uncles and brothers. Skipping a bit, Joshua initiates the Canaan conquest. There were restrictions. If the Canaanites fled from their lands there was no pursuit. If the Canaanites repented, they were spared. So, what was carried out was war not genocide. Remember Rahab and her house was spared at Jericho.
Regarding pregnant women and children, remember that gene pool problem the giant abominations were killed in war because they did not leave their land or repent. If God cannot do evil, war, kill then who does? and Did the Hebrews really understand the first answer or fail to recognize the first answer? The answer to first would be Satan. The answer to the second might be that the Israelites were not in fact doing God's will, but Satan's. The Israelites never completed the conquest of Canaan. They failed, and also failed to be obedient to their God. The Israelites rejected God, much like you and other secularists. So, my friend if God did not kill the pregnant women and children etc. who did? I will tell you but you will not believe it. Humans , us we did the killing, raping, torture, impaling, crucifixions, draw and quartering, the rack etc. See we humans are sick depraved morally reprehensible beings who are incapable of fiscal responsibility and managing our own affairs. We think a certain number of us are more superior to others, and that is laughable. See this is why there will never be peace on earth because those who puff themselves up and build a tower of babble from their words will be hated by folks in other countries a little less fortunate than you. Therein lies why wars are fought. Whether it is one religious view over another or Lionheart is right and everyone else is wrong. There does not need to be a logical reason to war with someone, and there never is a logical reason behind any war.
In conclusion, it is not God. God had nothing to do with the global mass murder of the 20th century. Humans perpetrated the evil, killing and torture. Did you know Unit 731, the Japanese in Manchuria China actually killed pregnant women and children. Did you know Pol Pot did too. Idi Amin was a known cannibal and probably killed pregnant women and children. Hitler loved killing too. I am sure the Nazis at Auschwitz murdered pregnant women and children. Stalin is next, and boy did he go on a killing spree of more than 25million. I am sure there were pregnant women and children killed by his hand too. It seems to me God does not have to kill pregnant women and children because humans love this kind of work.
Cheers Mate & Try and Have a Great Day.
Brother Sean
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Lionheart
Thank you for your reply mate. When you mentioned all those people that committed genocide I notice you very conveniently left out the god of the Old Testament, who possibly killed more people than all those put together that you mentioned.
In all fairness, although I often mention a god, as though he exists, in many of my rebuttals, I do that in attempt to prove a point to those who believe he exists.
Yes, I believe people are born with free will, but sadly, many become so indoctrinated into religion, they daren't even dress the way they would really like to for fear of their god. They remove foreskins off babies that were born with free will, but then had no choice, so that choice was removed from them because their parents are bonded to their god and its pathetic edicts. Fear god, for hell and damnation waits for those that don't, is a well known tenet in the Christian faith.
I don't need a mythical deity to tell me to show love in my life. I do it because of my own morals, not because I am told to do it by something else with lesser morals, a mythical deity, for fear of going to a hell.
People are so bonded or scared that they attend a building to eat a wafer and drink some wine in the pretense it's the body of someone that died for them. I'll tell you who really died for us, those at Dunkirk, those in the trenches of the First World War, so that we can live in peace with no fear of losing our free will to a mythical deity. I'll drink to them any day!
Cheers Mate. I'll buy you a pint if I ever see you down at t' pub, and we can chat some more.
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Jim
I will always argue for the rights of anyone to have free will over their own lives and the decisions that they choose. I would add to your post in that a large number of those who have died in war for our freedoms and rights, also died for those who choose to believe in god, to do so without being persecuted. You claim to be in support of free will but, it seems from your posts, that you only mean for those who believe the same as you do. If I have interpreted your meanings incorrectly then I apologize for that. Possible you should iterate your meanings if they are different.
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Lionheart
Thank you Jim for your comments. You are indeed correct that many of those that fought and died for our freedom did indeed believe in a god, and many didn't.
I do realize that many do not believe as I do, and that’s totally okay. Being a recovering Christian I have been where many of them currently are. I now see things very clearly, which of course many of those still in religion will dispute, because I did when I was in their shoes.
My comments on this blog are often tongue-in-cheek remarks in the hope that some of my comments will strike a chord and help those who are straddling the fence to start to think in a totally different way to help clear their indoctrination.
Peace and love
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Clarke Alexander
Well said!!! God gave mankind the gift (curse) of free will. Like a parent of an adult child you can love them and hate what they do but they are the ones than make the choice. God does not choose for us he(she) can only love us.
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Lionheart
"God does not choose for us he(she) can only love us."
Having said that Clarke, the mythical Christian god didn't do much loving to those infants he killed, and those he drowned during his genocidal days.
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Bob Velasquez
This argument is a waste of valuable time. How thinking people find time for this is mind-boggling!
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Lionheart
That's the problem Bob, religionists have stopped thinking. Worse still, their god doesn't want them to think. He wants them to blindly "Come unto me and follow" just like sheep.
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Secretary3rd
If your not a Catholic you are not going to Heaven, but will burn in Hell. It does not matter what other faith you have. So like all of you, I'm not a Catholic and will enjoy my time in Hell. I'm bring mushrooms.
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Lionheart
Many don't realize that the book of Revelation was written on the Isle of Patmos. I bet many of you are now saying "I knew that", but did you know that the Isle of Patmos is, and always has been, famous for its hallucinogenic mushrooms?
People have visited Patmos for that very reason from far and wide for thousands of years, and still do today. Now you know the rest of the story behind why the book of Revelation is so messed up. The author was as high as a kite, but then again, that's obvious when you read it. It almost didn't make canon of being included in the Bible. Is there any wonder?
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David Edmond
My apology for not being able to read all of the comments but my position on this issue is that the Catholic Church is in no moral position to judge and deny anyone holy communion. Jesus shed his blood for each of us. He died for each of us, including those responsible for his death. He knew Judas betrayed him during the last supper but did not deny him in sharing the meal. Look at the number of children forced into sexual bondage and covered up by the church hierarchy, and the same perpetrators were allowed to consecrate and administer the body and blood of Jesus the their parishioner's. Seems a bit hypocritical..
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Dawn Pisturino
I applaud the pastor's decision! When we see people like Ralph Northam in Virginia and Andrew Cuomo in NY supporting extreme abortion bills - which contradict the tenets of Christianity - someone needs to stand up for the faith. Beyond abortion, my impression of Joe Biden is that he is a corrupt career politician who has abused his position to enrich himself and his family.
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llillard
It is difficult to rationalize with non believers.
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Lionheart
Are beliefs rational? Is it rational to believe in Santa Clause, fairies, Sasquatch, or the Loch Ness Monster?
Is it rational to have a belief of a god when there is no rational evidence to demonstrate its existence?
I put it to you that, having totally misguided beliefs based on tales and myth from on old book, is totally irrational.
You also fall foul of your own statement if you are a non believer of other faiths gods.
I hope you can see that I am just trying to be rational here about your irrational statement.
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Norma Battes
Weeeelll..., South Carolina. (ahem)
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Lionheart
Whoever wins the election in 2020 will be President, and it will be our role to support our country and it’s elected leaders, not cry about it for four years working against the President.
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Norma Battes
"...former Vice President Joe Biden"
Former Vice President! He's been President since the was-been's insurrection. But I understand completely why you oppose abortion. Where else will all the little boys come from, eh mr. Morey ?
Clearly, anyone so contradictory to church teachings is not interested in Communion.
The separation of Church and State must be encouraged. Although I disagree with Joe’s opinion on abortion we must respect his right to pray and honor God in his Church of choice. We are parents of an adopted son and we clearly are grateful that his birth parents’s choice was in everyone’s best interest. Still turning someone away from a sacrament can only serve to fuel their misdirection.
There is NO SUCH THING in the Constitution and if you think there is then I challenge you to show me where the phrase exists! The Constitution was ratified in 1787 and the first mention of this myth was 15 years later in 1802. And by that time you would have needed a constitutional amendment to put it in there and guess what, no such amendment has ever been tried or suggested in over 220 years!
either you believe in the Bible wholeheartedly or you are not a Christian. Very simple. Ten commandments: thou shall not kill! We have enough hypocrites. Church and being a Democrat nowadays do not go together. Sorry. Anyone can practice whatever he/she wants but to be a Christian one believes that the Bible is true 100%.
Does that include the priests that molested children? I guess that doesn't fall under the "shalt not kill" view. Leaders of the church were well aware of these indiscretions, but simply turned a blind eye. The bible is filled with contradictions and open interpretations. It was written in a time when men were considered superior, and in many Christian faiths they still are. In the old testament pork was a bad thing, why was that? Because it was risky, in those days, to eat it without getting sick. It was a different time with different circumstances. We tend to interpret biblical phrases to suit our own agendas, injecting them into areas that are no longer relevant.
Sorry for your perversion of what decides biblical law ... first off the 10 commandments are Old Testament laws .. New Testament laws are 1) Love your Lord your God with all your heart mind body and soul 2) Treat your neighbor as you would yourself... In these two laws you fulfill all laws of the profits. Now that that is stated ... anyone and everyone are sinners whether or not you just confessed your sins yesterday or this morning... We are born to Sin created to Sin ..though a choice is given we sin in THOUGHT AND DEED CONSTANTLY... And I don’t remember Christ ever saying that you cannot partake in the body and the blood of Christ unless you are totally sinless and if we can become totally sinless Why would we need a God. Not to mention with a question but was the priest sinless Before.or during the sermon
So am I correct in thinking that you believe in the Bible 100% Sylvia? If you do, I will assume then that you are happy with the Christian god condoning slavery and stoning people to death...right?
You will also be happy with his decision to kill the first born children due to his anger with Pharaoh?
Just asking!
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So, by your argument, you must be anti-military, for it is an institution designed to kill. I'm good with that. As such, why don't we join together next Monday and protest Veterans Day, a day which honors government trained killers. Why don't we insist that any and all monuments that honors any past war or fallen comrade be destroyed? Thy shalt not kill! No wiggle room there. No military. No guns - they are created for the sole purpose of killing. We must no longer honor the mistakes of the past. All military statues and monuments must be destroyed. How un-Christian to allow them to stand. How un-Christian to allow the Second Amendment. Thy shall no kill IS thy shall not kill. You're my kind of gal. Next Monday. Washington D.C. The steps of the WWII Memorial. Let's protest its existence and demand it be removed. All Christians must rise for this. See ya there.
Here is my first thought, any person who walks in for communion has their own intent. What is the intent of that moment? Why are they coming for communion? While there is contradiction in opinion I do believe that some partake of communion out of a habit or training which is not right. I remember as a young girl my mother did not allow us to participate until we understood what and why we participated - intent. While I don't wholeheartedly agree that my understanding and hers coincide, out of respect I waited. Even now today I am more connected to the in depth spiritual action of communion. Just to clarify I am a conservative, I do believe that religion is one of the foundations of our country.
I wonder if the priest removed the log out of his own eye before removing the splinter from the other person’s skin. Ask me and I will tell you that terminating a pregnancy after the fetal heartbeat has started is the same as taking any human life. Then again I cannot reconcile my beliefs over LGTBA. Do I stand in judgement? No. We are told, judge not lest you be judged. Sooner or later those terminating and unborn life or following an LGTBA lifestyle will have to stand before the Lord in judgement.
Talking out of both sides of your mouth, how typical. When are religious zealots going to learn that you have absolutely NO say into others lives.
Not necessarily arawngraalrd. I personally will never turn away from anyone wanting communion. That is between the recipient and God. Nowhere in the bible does it say that no one can receive the Holy Communion. It is encouraged to receive the communion. A person of cloth is not supposed to put their rights to anyone. We are a vessel of God and we need to honor that commitment. Jesus would have given him the communion. My granddaughter's first communion in the catholic church was beautiful. Even though I am not catholic, I attended. When it was time to received communion, I went to receive communion as well. When the priest learned that I was a non-catholic and a minister of the Christian faith, he went beserk and started yelling that I sinned and he actually poked me in the chest more than once. So he also assaulted me. Had no one told him I was a minister of a Christian faith, he would have never known. I did tell this priest that if he came to me asking me for communion I would not turn him away. Wow, it was crazy. In the bible we are to receive communion daily and this priest was wrong for turning Biden away. No one should be denied. I always ask if they asked for forgiveness of their sins in Jesus name and then I give communion. It is on them if they lied to me and God. So I don't agree with what that priest did and I don't agree with your response, respectfully. God Bless.
I am in complete agreement with you on this particular matter. I, all to often, see those who are supposed to be representatives of our lord and savior, preaching hate and judgement on our fellow man, and woman, kind. Jesus never taught hate, never refused food or drink to anyone, instead he taught to love your fellow man, lift up those who need help, and just be a humane human being. Most faiths have strayed from this path and all we can do is to pray for their salvation and try to teach to them.
“Jesus never taught hate and judgement on our fellow man”
Well, that isn’t strictly true Jim. People love to think Jesus is wonderful love and light, but when you read Luke you will see his ego gets the better of him.
Luke 12:47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luke 19:27 But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.’ ”
It could be seen by some as not being words of hate, but it certainly doesn’t sound to be words of love. I’m actually very surprised he never denounced slavery, which I think one could expect from someone supposedly teaching love and light.
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Jesus did not suffer a Roman crucifixion by sitting around a campfire singing Kumbaya - to change the world sometimes you have to step into the fire. So no, maybe it's not true that Jesus constantly floated around with an ethereal expression etched across his face.
Those are fine passages, perhaps said in the heat of the moment, and chosen well to prove a point, I get that... however, how do we really know if Jesus actually said any of them?
You are right Cheri, we don’t know if he really said those words, assuming he really did exist.
If we are to doubt he said those words, are we to doubt other words he allegedly said by whoever it was that wrote them down?
Only one of those books in the New Testament refers to a virgin birth. Wouldn’t that have been a monumental event that was worthy to be included in every book of the New Testament?
I wonder what was really true, and what wasn’t?
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The cast of characters, and what they said and or did, change dramatically in the four gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, most of which were written long after Jesus' death - and so I agree it would be difficult to take everything at face value. I think it's up to the individual to embrace whatever it is they hold true in their own hearts.
Yes, a virgin birth would be monumental, but not likely. However, the role that Mary played in her son's life is, in itself, pretty monumental.
Historically speaking, Jesus did exist - it's been documented in the works of Josephus. He actually lived during the same time as Jesus... who is to know, they may have even crossed paths.
Thanks Cheri
It seems that Josephus was not born until 37CE and died about 100CE so he more than likely wasn't born until after the suggested death of Jesus. There appears to be a lot of discord about the writings of Josephus by modern day scholars.
You can read more here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus
Have a great Thanksgiving
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Ah! I stand corrected. I may have been thinking of Philo, who actually did live during the time of Jesus, but didn't have a whole lot to say about him, Josephus actually said more. (I have both Josephus & Philo in my home library - huge volumes - not exactly friendly little paperbacks to read in bed.) Then I thought of the Essenes, which brought me a little closer to making a valid point, but not quite.
So I'll leave it at that smiles
Thank you too, Lionheart, have a great thanksgiving as well.
There are so many religions to choose from, why pretend you belong to a church you don't believe in? Mostly because don't have the courage to follow their own path and cling to the path where you get the most pats on the head... Joe, have some courage!