Look out Harry Potter fans, there's an even more famous sorcerer vying for your attention: Jesus.
That's according to a group that calls themselves "Christian witches." They're preparing to gather in Salem, Massachusetts on Easter weekend for their first official convention. "The Bible is a huge book of sorcery," says Prophet Calvin Witcher, an internationally recognized spiritual figure who will serve as co-host for the convention. "You literally can't get around that. You can't get around Jesus being a magician. There's just no way."
Witcher will be preaching his message alongside event organizer Rev. Valerie Love, who describes herself as a practicing Christian witch and an ordained minister of spiritual consciousness. Forced to stifle her own true identity as a witch while growing up a Jehovah's Witness, Love recently launched the Covenant of Christian Witches Mystery School to help her fellow Christians tap into their magical powers.
Miracles? No, Sorcery
So, why do the think Jesus was a magician? As proof of their claims, Christian witches point to the many miracles performed by Jesus that are referenced in the Bible. Here's Witcher again:
"You're talking about sorcery at its base understanding, it's really just being able to change the natural by supernatural means. It's an alchemical process. It's to say that you turn water into wine. One, two fish and five loaves of bread, feeding the multitude - absolutely forms of sorcery. Walking on water defined the natural realm and laws that govern this physical plane. That's all realms of sorcery. Magic is simply just using the props to do it."
A Volatile Pairing
As the number of self-identified witches in the US continues to explode, some have argued that the mixing of witchcraft and Christianity is a spiritually-toxic brew.
"I won't judge someone's salvation," writes Christian author Jennifer LeClaire, "but when people in church release word curses, pray against you, and conduct unholy fasts to destroy you, the fruit of the Spirit is clearly lacking."
However, what some critics describe as "dangerous", leaders like Love and Witcher behold as both harmless and necessary especially for those seeking a more in-depth spiritual experience.
Can Christianity Co-Exist with the Occult?
New-age occultism seems to have no beef with Christianity. But the same cannot be said for mainstream religion's view of witchcraft (Christian-inspired or not). Whether it's burning Harry Potter books because they "promote the devil's work" or blaming a rise in exorcisms on occult groups, traditional churches have shown considerable hostility toward anything involving magic. However, Witcher argues this approach is inconsistent with the teachings of the Bible:
"Most of the time when people come against magic, sorcery, mysticism, the occult, you name it, the new age community they are not really coming against the Bible because the Bible honestly doesn't teach that when you understand it and break it down. The Bible is not against magic. The Bible is a magic book. The Bible is a grimoire, hands down."
Where do you see things heading? Could Christians come to accept these unique occult-inspired factions, or will words like "magic" and "sorcery" always be taboo in mainstream religion?
99 comments
-
Marcel French
Ok, Jesus spent his time as a young man traveling the known world of his time. He learned from many cultures and most if not all the miracles where due to common herb based medicine and good hygiene. For example take the case of the lepers he told them to bathe in the river, and after doing so the where cured. These now former lepers returned to Jesus and began to make an attempt to worship him. He then informed them not to worship him and that they only need to be hygienic. As for if christians and occultist can co-excit it can be possible but both sides have to work together. As a confirmed pagan I have a few Christian friends, the real question is can there be a day when people like me will no longer be demonized by the vast majority of Christians?
-
Larry M Ludwig
I apologize for the lack of tolerance my fellow Christians. We are taught by the Gospel to have tolerance in our lives. Easier said than done when confronted by a diametrically opposed willful non belier. To find it difficult to comprehend why the people would believe in a higher being. No matter your personal interpretation of “higher being “. Imagine that there’s a common sound or vibration that is generated by our collective selves. If it were possible to personally jell with imperceptible and omnipresent “being”. To be enveloped, gathering peace, understanding, and inspiration. A vibration of the sound of Universal Life. I promise all pagans, that you will have everything thing to gain and nothing to lose. Pastor Larry M Ludwig ULC
-
Pastor Dsve
I was raised Catholic and later studied the Bible with the Assemblies of God. And I still can not prove to some one that every word written in the Bible is the truth. Anyone who was alive when Jesus walked the earth was long dead bu the time the Bible was written. Who can say the things recorded happened the way the Bible says they did. Is there a Heaven or Hell? No man has ever proven it to be true or false. So how do we really know?
-
Marisa
We know because of faith. Also, the Bible is written by man, inspired by God.
-
Lionheart
Flat earthers have faith that the earth is flat. Some in Scotland have faith the Loch Ness Monster is real. Mormons have faith that God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith in a grove of trees. Children have faith that Santa Clause is real. Can you see the problem with your logic?
A woman, due to her faith, was recently removed from jury service because she made a statement prior to the trial saying the lord had told her the accused man was innocent. He was later found to be guilty.
-
Tee
Jesus is Messiah....Jesus is more real than any witch...Jesus healed delivered and set free...many..i am a strong believer in The word of God....witches operated in sorcery false spirits appearing real....Jesus didn't use tarot cards crystal balls false pretents....Jesus is real...
-
Lionheart
Thank you for your unproven fallacious statements.
It never ceases to amaze me how gullible some people can be reading from a book that others have told them is holy and also the word of god. Mormons say and believe similar things about their book that they equally deem as holy. You will say they are gullible. I believe you both are.
-
Hank Stanco
Ah. Lionheart is at it again.
Lionheart denies everything that does not fit in his limited sphere of ideals.
He is quick to point out ‘The Book’ and marginalizes it with his sarcastic words. But he won’t accept the fact that the book was the way of testimony in those days. He wants to apply today’s forensic standards to activity of two-thousand years ago.
Poor poor Lionheart. Perhaps he can give I us written testimony from two -thousand years ago that can refute that it ever happened.
I am sure he can’t. Poor poor Lionheart.
-
Lionheart
Well Hank, if you are asking me to say that I believe someone was really turned into salt caused by a god, or there really was and Adam and Eve, or there really was a world flood, or someone went into the garden of Gethsemane all on his own, yet someone, who wasn’t there, somehow recorded the event, I guess I’m going to say I doubt it very much. Unless of course you have more than just a written testimony in a book equivalent to, but not as good as, Aesop’s Fables.
I bet you’ll be telling me next that you believe in a talking ass, and a talking snake, that’s spoken about in your book. If you do, then that tells me a lot about the level of your intelligence and would suggest you go back to school to hone your intellectual skills.
If anyone has a limited sphere of ideals sir it is clearly yourself having such limited understanding of logic and reason.
-
Hank Stanco
So Lionheart, you have no evidence that the miracles Jesus performed never occurred...
-
Lionheart
Of course I can’t prove that someone called Jesus, 2000 years ago, performed miracles, Hank. No more than you can prove it happened. I can’t prove that the same Jesus wasn’t gay, or liked children a bit more than he should.
What part of logic and reason are you having difficulty understanding?
-
Hank Stanco
My logic is fine. There are at least three testimonies of his life. There othe numerous others that didn’t make the book.
There are Jewish and Roman historians that corroborate the testimonies.
Not only that, but there are historical accounts of each of the eleven disciples being executed for their faith and love in Jesus.
You don’t even mention them.
Why would eleven men be willing to die for a hoax?
The logical answer would be they saw, they heard and they believed.
-
Don
"Why would eleven men be willing to die for a hoax?"
Using your logic, David Koresh was the Son of God. After all, 75 people were willing to die for him. Why would seventy five people be willing to die for a hoax? (Are we learning yet?)
-
John D. Partin
The defenders of the Alamo all died there, too. Did they do that because they thought that "Davy Crockett was the Son of God" or because they were committed to defending the Alamo at all costs, to the last man? That is why David Koresh's followers died in that compound, making their last stand against the ATF agents and FBI, not because of their thinking that he was "the Son of God", and it helped in their deaths that those agents didn't give them a choice, but set the compound on fire!! Other people have died similarly in last stands, also not thinking that their leaders were "Messiahs" or "Sons of God", but nobody has ever died for something that they knew to be a hoax and a lie. So, the Apostles actually saw Jesus' resurrection, which transformed them from hopeless and discouraged men into bold preachers of Jesus' resurrection, which is the only thing that sensibly and logically explains it. That is the difference between them and followers of David Koresh. This reply is two years late, but better late than never!! Are you learning yet?!!
-
-
Lionheart
Thank you Don. There are none so blind that don't want to see! You are way to logical and you speak too much sense for some, but your comments will more than likely be overlooked because the religious don't want to know the truth. To be honest I think they are scared of the truth. Some will always follow scams, it's just the way they are.
-
-
-
-
Don
Ok, Jesus is a myth and no historical evidence exists to suggest he actually was a real person. Let's remember to be honest!
-
Gary Minnis
Here is some evidence. Just saying.
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/jesus/nonchristianaccounts.html
-
Don
The authors of your "evidence" also mentioned Hercules and the Greek gods in their writings. Either you are suggesting Hercules and the Greek gods existed, or your "evidence" just became worthless.
-
Hank Stanco
Yeah Don, they mentioned Hercules and other Roman gods. They mention them to allow the reader to understand the religious climate of the times. It wasn’t to admit their own faith in those Gods. Nice try though.
-
-
Don
"Nice try though."
Better than a nice try, I succeeded! You admitted mentioning religious figures was just to allow the reader to "understand the religious climate of the times. It wasn’t to admit their own faith in those Gods."
Therefore, no evidence of Jesus, either. Thanks for your clarification.
-
Hank Stanco
So Don what’s your problem with the writings of historians?
Why do you insist on applying today’s standards to something that happened two thousand years ago?
As far as David Korea’s goes, we’re there any other followers that died for him after his death?
-
Hank Stanco
Oh there’s lots of evidence Jesus. There’s lots of corboration as well. You jut went ah to deny what’s there. That’s hardly an argument that Jesus didn’t exist.
-
Don
"Oh there’s lots of evidence Jesus."
Then present some of it, and quit using the cowardly evasion tactics used by others...you know, like trying to use the writings of Josephus, Tacitus, etc. as "evidence". It's not evidence and you know it.
Now, you made the claim, time to stop dancing around it and present the empirical evidence for an historical Christ. Your move.
-
-
-
-
-
Lionheart
If Jesus existed today, if he ever existed at all, he’d be performing in Las Vegas with his band of Merry Men.
-
Sue: Wiccan, Elder, Guardian
I live in Las Vegas and I can say that this would not be a Headline show. It would probably be something that shows off strip in the afternoons and tickets can usually be had at no cost if you sign up for the casino rewards card.
-
Robin
I believe that was Robin Hood.
-
Lionheart
Are you implying that the disciples were not his very merry men? ? I didn't see any women in there!
-
-
-
James R. Henry
I'll be the first to say that I enjoy a good Harry Potter movie, but I'm not so naive to think that sorcery is Godly or the Bible is a book of magic. The Bible time & time again condemns sorcery & the use of magic, the true form not card tricks.
Leviticus 19:31 KJV: "Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God."
Exodus 22:18 KJV: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."
Leviticus 20:6 KJV: "And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people."
Now you might say, "ya, but that's the Old Testament, those are no longer valid." Not a problem, here's some New Testament!
Galatians 5:19-21 KJV: "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
Now let me tell you the story of a man named Simon who was a sorcerer but got saved & even rebuked for asking for the Power of God by money!
Acts 8:5-25 KJV: "Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed. And there was great joy in that city. But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God. And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries. But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me. And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans."
The one thing that must be understood, even by nonbelievers is that the Bible says one thing. Even if you don't believe the Bible, one cannot claim the Bible is good for something it clearly demonizes, or condemns. The Bible, whether you believe in God or not, condemns sorcery. And for a man to claim it is good, or used as a "magic book" makes that man, or woman, and in the case of these two so-called reverends both, an antichrist. They go completely against the written Word of God!
-
Cynthia Sharpe rev
AMEN
-
Tee
Amen Pastor
-
Lionheart
“I’ll be the first to say that I enjoy a good Harry Potter movie, but I’m not so naive to think that sorcery is Godly or the Bible is a book of magic.”
But, Mr Henry, you are still naive, because you believe all the stories in “another” book, that is also full of fallacy, possibly just as much as the Harry Potter one.
-
Giancarlo Pozotrigo
Hey! Lionheart/Don,
Why are you deliberately trying to ignore his point. He is stating a clear and undeniable fact. Whether you believe the bible is truth or not, you can't claim the bible condones witchcraft! IDIOTS!
So anyone saying "Oh the bible is just a witch book of magic" is obviously LYING, whether for nefarious demonic reasons, or just to take money from naive idiots like you! The bible, by self evident fact of its own text, CONDEMNS any form of magic or witchcraft.
This argument does not need to revert back to 'OH JESUS ISN'T REAL CAUSE WE HAVE NO PROOF'... that's a stupid argument and doesn't cover the MAIN topic at hand, which is, these preachers are claiming to mix witchcraft and the bible, which by the bibles own words is not possible. To even entertain this topic is below me, this is ASININE! Honestly, it should be below anyone with an iota of common sense.
It's about as dumb as a man insisting he's a woman. Or saying what is good is evil, and what is evil is good.
It's like saying Harry Potter is actually a hidden manuscript for modern day child psychotherapy.
COMMON, this is really sad. ANY EXCUSE TO CORRUPT TRUTH RIGHT!...
Who cares if you think the bible is real. Clearly these witch reverends think its a real manuscript, and that is totally a paradox against Christianity all together, SMH, you should feel ashamed that you continue to argue with such lack of focus on the topic and lack of reasoning in your peanut sized head!
NOW, HUMBLE YOURSELF AND ADMIT, CHRISTIAN WITCHCRAFT MAKES NO SENSE AND IS AN OBVIOUS SCAM. ... stupid!
-
-
-
pcfield
My grandmother was a witch, she used spirits, herbs, tea leaves, bones, taro cards and even a crystal ball to help or curse those who came to her. As for healing, besides the herbs and oils, she used "The Touch" to heal. The bible calls upon all Christians to Not have any one among them that talks to the dead, tells fortunes or deceives by magic.
God's Spirit is all one needs to heal or cause "miracles" large or small. He showed us how he is more powerful in all "Magic" that was conjured up by the sorcery the magicians used. They were matched and even out done by God and the Staff of Moses. When matching the other staffs that turned into snakes, Moses'es Staff via the power of God's Spirit devoured them all.
That is why in Revelations it is also stated that those who practice magic and other dark arts via the power of Lucifer or their own power will not enter into the Kingdom of the New Jerusalem in the sky above the new Earth. I have an aversion toward big cities, I love the countryside and quiet sounds of nature. I am one with God in such places, fully in Spirit, of Spirit.
Grandmother died before she could teach me how to use the powers she had as, I inherited "The Touch" and other gifts of the Holy Spirit from birth and was next in line to take over the family tradition. No one was able to guide me so, my mother who was frightened of the gifts, told me to ask God to guide me. I did and I have been a healer most of my life except for the time I was young and wanted revenge on some people in my life who hurt me, I let Lucifer talk me into letting him work through me for the "good of others", but was really all about me and my having the power to manipulate others to build my ego/self-ness to make sure my needs and wants were first before anyone else's.
The Churches, except for one, that I have visited would not accept my gifts were from God, they are super paranoid of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, preferring to label them evil and of the devil before from God, just like they did in Christ's time. So, no they would not accept them into the church, but as a Christian I would not condemn them or judge them, God brought me back into the fold and he may have the same plan for them. We are to Love the sinner, hate the sin. Be examples of the goodness of God, it is His job to judge. I allow the Spirit of God to use me to help others, I do not use Him or any other "gadgets" to enhance the healing process or protect me from feeling and expunging the pain of those who come. He does the work, I am but an instrument. We all have the choice of The True Light, the False Light and the Darkness. May we all choose wisely.
-
John
The name Lucifer comes from Babylonia and is the name of their sun god and magick is the same as a gun it’s is neither good nor evil it’s nuetral and is only good or bad depending on the person using it not that non users would know such things cause Christians follow what they’re ministers say and do no research for themselves
-
-
edward morgan
how can you be a christian witch when God got rid of all mediums answer me this if your christian you are a FOLLOWER of CHRIST
-
Lionheart
It’s because your imaginary friend didn’t get rid of Witches. It’s a fallacy Edward, and there’s still no real evidence Jesus ever existed.
?❤️
-
Lori
Men are responsible for going against mediums. The Bible is a man made book. The only people trying to kill the witches were "Good Christians". Much like the KKK,
-
Ken Dixon
My ex-wife was a medium when we married. But over time, she became an extra large.
-
Geoffrey Haberman
LOVE IT!!!!!!!?
-
Lori
I love it too!!!!!!
-
Lionheart
????
-
-
-
-
Clifford Oliver
In the Bible, Jesus was presided over by the Three Wise Men or the Magi. Which were most likely of the Gnostic religions. Which grew out of the Pagan or Druidic religions.
-
Lionheart
Actually, that book doesn’t say there were “three” wise men. All it states is that wise men came from the east bringing gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh. There could have been two, or even twentytwo, if the story was real.
?❤️
-
John Owens
That's correct, Lionheart. It says they brought three manner of gifts, not that there were three of them. Of course, they were astrologers, and not prophets, and they did not arrive when the babe was a newborn, but when He was a toddler. They did not go to Bethlehem, where He was born while the family was called out unexpectedly for a census, but to Nazareth, where they dwelt before the wise men came.
-
-
-
Dr.Rev. Annie
Since no one knows the answer to any of these things, one opinion is just as valid as another. I am a Christian but that means something different to me than it means to many other Christians. One thing I believe is that since all religion is basically belief or faith or opinion, no one can claim to know the 'right' answers or the 'Truth' with a capital T, including atheists. I say whatever gives a person comfort in facing issues like life and death or pain and suffering and doesn't hurt others is ok with me! Religion turns evil when it is used as a weapon to judge those who disagree with it or when it tries to tell others how to behave. Live and let live.
-
Lori
You truly are a "good Christian"! There are a few around. Blessed be!
-
Dr.Rev. Annie
Why thank you Lori! Agape is my guiding principle. But it has taken a long time to get here. Peace.
-
-
John Owens
I concur.
-
-
Maiane santo santos
Appearing by popular demand at the palomino room for a three week stay, back from a wild 2000 year stint somewhere, the one, the only, jeeeeesus
-
Dr.Rev. Annie
And one of the most important attributes of a healthy spirituality is... Humour! ?
-
Maiane santo santos
Thanks annie, i love it when conversation can go nicely, some of the threads are way way off kilter, take care girl.
-
-
Debora Cousins
love your comment!! wonderfull sense of humor!!!
-
-
Amy
Clarke's 3rd law fits quite nicely here. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
-
Tom
Out of the two of them... Witch do you think is crazy... Get it... "Witch"...
-
Hank Stanco
The act of being a pagan and being Christian is nothing new.
As early as the 12th century, Italian pagans from Tuscany and Piedmont known as the Guglimiti we’re practicing pagans who went to Church and honored the saints.
I do have a problem with Jesus being termed a magician. It’s difficult to understand he raised Lazarus, not to mention himself from the dead, then claim it to be nothing more than magic.
-
Lionheart
Why do you have a problem with that Hank? The story of a man bringing back someone from the dead isn’t new.
Osiris was cut into pieces and brought back from the dead by the Goddess Isis to allow them to conceive a son Horus.
Tammuz was raised from the dead by Inanna (aka Ishtar)
There are stories of Adonis being raised from the dead by the tears of Aphrodite mixing with his blood.
Attis who self mutilated, died, and was resurrected.
Dionysus, son of Zeus (aka Bacchus) was born from a mortal mother (sound familiar?), also survived death.
Elijah brought back to life the son of a widow
A man was brought back to life after his body touched the bones in the tomb of Elisha.
Eutychus, Tabitha, Lazarus, the list goes on and on Hank.
All of these stories have been criticized and refuted by people throughout the ages, and understandably so. Did any of them really happen? I doubt it! We will never know.
-
-
Tammy
The message of Jesus was Unity with The Father. In this Unity, when two or more come together, miracles...magically happen. He questioned the religious leaders of the day and allowed them to trip theirselves up so that teaching could occur and revelations be realized. He didn't argue for that creates polarity when the goal was and is Awareness of Our Unity. Lost and ridiculous are those who think they know because in that thought they have limited their self and enslaved through judgment the world they look upon.
-
James R. Henry
He kicked over the tables of the religious leaders of the day. He cursed the fig tree for not bearing fruit, a symbol that if we don't bear fruit, that angers God. God is an angry & jealous God. He says "Be angry & sin not." So yes, he did argue with the leaders of His day. e called them Pharisees & Sadducees, hypocrites. He continually told them how wrong they were & that one day they would meet their maker, & it would NOT be a pleasant introduction.
-
Lionheart
Don’t you just love the blackmailing “do as you’re told“ philosophy of that Jesus guy?
As for me, I’ll just try my best to be loving and respectful as best I can because “I” want to and not because of stupid mythical threats.
-
-
CRAIG
Ah where to begin...
Magic. TO my mind, breaking down magic to its basics is the manipulation of energy either through processes and rituals, sometimes involving herbs, artifacts, and so on. Witchcraft has been around forever: people have always been trying to discover ways to make their situations better by either using magic or communing with the divine. IF you want to get down to the nitty-gritty, Satanists have been involved with Christianity (albeit in an "evil" way) for a long time as well.
You can't call out witches for believing or aligning with Jesus and God. True witchcraft, to my understanding (and tweak or correct me if I'm wrong) is building relationships with the higher powers for beneficial purposes. That being the case, I don't see the problem entwining the two.
Back to my first comment on magic: over the centuries, it seems to me "magic" is ascribed to anything we don't understand. Jesus, being capable of the kinds of acts ascribed to him in the Bible, does indeed fall under the umbrella of magic, and would make him a sorcerer or wizard.
In the end, no matter what you call Jesus, or how you describe what he did, it still comes back to the message he left behind: treat your fellow people as you would wish to be treated by them, don't judge others because you don't have the wisdom to do so, and respect all people creatures and the earth.
However since we're on the topic...if Jesus was a wizard . . . or a witch . . . how do we know? Because if Jesus is the same weight as a duck (which will float in water) then he's a witch...that's just straight forward science...
-
Joe Bill Schirtzinger
Sorcery and magic are very different things. The Bible expressly forbids sorcery. So, whatever these witches are doing, it is not consistent with the Torah and the teachings of YHSVH.
-
Lionheart
Of course they’re the same thing Joe. They are all idealogical rubbish.
-
-
thegoodlizard
My personal feeling is that the results of all magic, miracles, sorcery, etc. come from the same Universal Source/Energy/Creator Conciousness/Flying Spaghetti Monster, whatever you want to call it. I am a follower of the principles that the teacher known as Jesus Christ taught. I also love my Mother Goddess and strive to be the best human being that I can be. So, could the stories of Jesus be seen as the stories of the works of a magician? Sure. Doesn't matter what we call it, or even if we believe it or not. Just taking the stories as myths, they're still cool stories. I loved Grimm's Fairy Tales as a kid, still do. Because they are cool stories, that resonate with me. And, just as an aside, if you think all Christians are like the jerks we see in the media, check out the progressive movement within the Christian faith, I was amazed. Just my two cents for the day. ✌❤?
-
Vicki Hunter Lennon
I was raised in the Southern Baptist Church (in Texas) and later, after studying other religions, I accepted the fact that I am a Witch. I believe I have been since birth. It was the most spiritual and most empowering moment of my life when I finally said it out loud. As a Witch, I have never understood the term “Christian Witch”, but that’s probably because the church I grew up in would still burn witches if they could. I am not offended by what this group says about the Bible and Jesus. In my opinion the Bible is open to interpretation and their interpretation is as valid as anyone else’s. I am also a Reiki Master. There are some who believed when Jesus healed people by laying hands on them, he was using Reiki. I’m not saying that Jesus was using Reiki because I have no idea what healing modalities he practiced. I am just grateful he was a Healer. I wish people of all beliefs would learn to coexist instead of constantly trying to prove who’s right. Each of us has our own path and as long as your path leads you to peace and to the light, I celebrate it with you. ☮️? We are all children of the earth.
-
A druid
The basic difference here seems to be that miracles are church sanctioned and magic is freelance. Only priests can do legal magic, and for overstepping their position witches must be burned. Can you tell who made these rules? Just wondering.
-
Stoodie Baker
Let's not mix our myths! The Christian god is the magic wizard in the clouds and Jesus is some form of undead, possibly a wight, vampire, or a coherent zombie.
-
Daniel
FUNNY. I’ve often joked about how many current Christian churches would have people become Cannibal-vampire-zombies for Christ. By the mistaken notion that it ACTUALLY becomes the blood and the body and that they should become dead unto this world. All based on misinterpretations of the actual message. Most can’t even begin to picture Isua the Christ taking a dump behind a bush or belching and farting at the Last Supper. There was also NEVER any message about him dying for our sin (defined then as anything that you THINK can separate you from God). The basic message was hold the line to the one source of EVERYTHING -God-, help each other, and don’t get lost in the illusion of separation (including the illusion of separation called death); to paraphrase; Hold the line, help each other and don’t trip over the small shit because it’s NOT going to kill you - not the real you where separation is simply an illusion and we are ALL one.
-
-
Rod Gesner
magic and/or science are both repressed by elders/Priests that wish to maintain their control of the gullible masses...the Catholic church in particular has stolen Centuries of research in herbs and magic and hidden it in the catacombs or destroyed it.. much like our Md's and Pharma corps; They do not acknowledge what they can not Profit from and control. as far as Jesus and his miracles?? Lazarus: CPR... Loaves and Fishes Yeast expands the Bread to feed many; Dehydration shrinks Larger fish to expand when cooked.. (I do Like the Stone soup theory as well; Guilt em into sharing;) water into wine: Freezing or heat distillation turns wine into clear concentrated ethanol which when added to water will get a whole party drunk.. Walking on water: Ice.. or Barefootn behind a Fast sailboat.. or He simply knew where the Stumps or rocks or sand bars were. My Grandfather a Disciples of Christ missionary; had a great story of; The minister, the priest and the rabbi; out fishing; first the minister walks on water to shore and takes a leak; the the priest say's: "Nature calls" steps off the boat and walks on the water as well; The rabbi not to be outdone; steps off the boat and sinks; as he comes up sputtering.. the priest say's: Maybe we shoulda told him where the stumps were?
-
Secretary3rd
Since it seems that no matter what you call yourself (witch) or what you think you can do (magic) it comes down to one thing no one has proven that there was even Jesus a son of a God in the first place. Was the Jesus myth created to insult the Jewish religion? Being a son of a God was common in Greek religions. Being a God on earth work for eons in Egypt. Roman had their Gods. Even Roman slaves were allowed one God of their master. Giving the Jews what they wanted was easy they wanted a savior the Roman Empire gave them one with all of the trimmings.
-
Hank Stanco
You keep on calling Jesus a myth. Even though his life, death and resurrection were reported by Flavius Josephus, Philo and most importantly, in the Annals of Tacitus, keep trying to convince the masses that Jesus did not exist.
There are several myth talkers commenting, none f which can be considered worthy of debate.
But go on, continue with the talk of the mythical Jesus. It gives me a good chuckle.
-
Lionheart
Flavius Josephus is merely a historian that wasn't even alive when the supposed Jesus was, so he was only reporting what he'd been told. Much like the fake CNN news. Stories get around you know. Perhaps in 2000 years time someone will believe Harry Potter was real.
Philo wrote extensive apologetics on the Jewish religion and commentaries on contemporary politics. About thirty manuscripts and at least 850,000 words are extant. Philo offers commentary on all the major characters of the Pentateuch and, mentions Moses more than a thousand times. Yet Philo says not a word about Jesus, Christianity nor any of the events described in the New Testament. In all this work, Philo makes not a single reference to his alleged contemporary "Jesus Christ".
All we have from Tacitus is that someone called Jesus was executed. Someone called Jesus mows my grass every two weeks.......seriously! I don't think it's the one you refer to though, but in 2000 years someone might say there is a record of Jesus Christ mowing grass for a living.
Bottom line: NONE of those you mention actually say they saw the Jesus you refer to. I'm not saying he didn't. exist because he could have, (but so could the Loch Ness monster, and Sasquatch, of which there have been credible sightings of both) but where's the hard evidence? It's extremely sketchy, unless you just read the book and say that's evidence.
-
Hank Stanco
Flavius Josephus hated the Jews and yet still wrote of ‘Jesus the Christ’.
Philo Judeaus never once mentioned Christ. You are correct.
But he wrote extensively regarding Nero trying to destroy the followers of Jesus the Christ.
And you yourself acknowledge that Tacitus wrote about the execution of Christ. You did not mention that his writing nearly mirrors that of the Gospel of John.
You copy and paste well. Nice try.
-
Lionheart
Flavius Josephus: Did he witness Jesus, or was he writing about what he'd heard? Being as he was born after the supposed death date of Jesus I guess the answer is, no.
Were there Christians around that time, I'm sure there was. There are Christians today. Did the Jesus that is spoken about in the Bible ever exist? We have no certain knowledge that he did.
No I did not acknowledge that Tacitus wrote about the execution of Christ. I acknowledge that it's recorded that someone called Jesus was executed. Could it have been the leader of the Christians...possibly, and if it was, was he the son of God? We don't know.
Your arguments in your rebuttal are at best, fallacious. Nice try though.
-
-
-
-
-
Dark Gray
I don't claim to know much about magic, but I've noticed that in the Bible, it seems to be other peoples' faith which fuels Jesus' miracles. Several stories talk about him being amazed by someone's faith and exclaiming, "Whoah, dude! Your faith has caused this miracle!" (or "My child, your faith has made you well!" or something similar).
Compare this to Mark 6:5, "And because of their unbelief, he couldn't do any miracles among them except to place his hands on a few sick people and heal them."
So it wasn't really Jesus waltzing around doing tricks because of some magic power he alone possessed. Rather, it was Jesus and someone else and God all working together to produce the miracle.
-
Monrovia
I found this topic to be most interesting. It is not surprising to find so many agnostics, or many who have been hurt by the devious vices, and psychological manipulation, of varying biblical interpretations from so many divers, denominational approaches to a Heavenly Kingdom. I don't mean to be offensive but it seems from my experiences in the world Christians are witches. As an instrument of psychology, it is possible for the bible to be used as a grimoire? I never heard the proclamation from Heaven that, "all followers of Christ shall be called Christians, herethoto." It is the prerogative of the worlds citizens to choose to choose to be witches if they so desire. Have not not you been given free will? It is in my understanding that Christ came to save the lost and to enhance they whose faith is as small as a mustard seed. Being of Minister of Universal Life is not the same as being a Universal Life Minister. A Minister of Universal Life has been to the mountain top and seen the promise land. They are not witches or Christian's. They are simple, extended members of Christ therefore, they have no need to seek evidence of his Being. The words that were used to describe some of the biblical phenomena denouncing the validity of wisdom sprinkled throughout the scriptures in these many comments, bear witness to statements such as: everyone that have ears cannot hear and everyone that have eyes cannot see. Everyone is not equipped to receive that which has been given for edification of the soul. As one who has learned not to be argumentative, I have chosen to accept the Blessings of the Lord rather than the rewards of the prophet. Is not the Kingdom of the Almighty God greater and far more experienced with eons of time and a host of Spiritual aquaintaces that have contributed so much to the development of mankind?
Naturally, one that professes to actually dominate the discipline of theology by defying it's very principals with the philosophy of magical props instead exercising faith in the ability of the unseen force by which we inhale and exhale, has lost or never attained the ability to respect a source of life that is far greater than oneself.I really love the Lord....
-
Hank Stanco
Flavius Josephus was closer to the people of the time period than we will ever be.
And you did acknowledge that Jesus was executed. You just want to deny it was the Jesus that every other historian wrote about.
I’m sure you are a flat-earther as well as a denier that NASA ever set foot on the moon, just to have something to argue about.
-
Lionheart
Joseph Smith, is recorded to have seen God the father, and Jesus Christ in a grove of trees. You can read all about it in the Book of Mormon. Do you believe that too then being as it’s recorded and closer to our generations? This is the type of logic you are using to believe Flavius Josephus. What criteria do we use to discount, or believe, the stories of Josephus, or Joseph Smith? If you discount the record of Smith, where is your evidence? If you believe Josephus where is your evidence?
I am not denying it’s the Jesus, that you call Christ, that was executed. I’m saying that there was a Jesus of that time period that was executed. It could have been the man you call a savior, but we just don’t know for sure.
Having worked on the NASA program as a design engineer on the Space Shuttle Program to get that program back in flight after the Challenger disaster I do not believe the earth is flat. It really isn’t necessary to resort to sarcasm, I won’t. As an atheist I value my morals.
-
-
Minister Post
These are Satanists from the left deep state deceiving the weak minded who have no faith in Jesus Christ . For the love of many will grow cold and people will go on deceiving and being Deceived.
-
Lionheart
Could it be that the weak minded are actually those people like yourself that are deceived? I’ve been where you are, and life is so much more clearer and happier now that I’ve been in recovery from religion and come through it. I didn’t realize how indoctrinated and damaged I was following the same dogma that it appears you are currently subject to.
-
-
Minister Post
What these witches see is a desire to explain away the true power of God and his power through Jesus Christ..Again the bible by these leftists is taken out of context.
-
I.S. Johnson
If you can't spot these two as standard flim flam artists hop off the turnip truck. This is not about magic, religion, Christianity, spirituality or faith, it is about M-O-N-E-Y!!!!!! This is just what these people have found a market for. Christian witches. Ignore them and they will fall out of style and disappear. The more press they receive and more ire they can raise just helps insure spots on talk shows (paid appearances), possible book deals and all the perks of both. Church is the new BOOM TIME Industry. People of faith who attend a church that has an ATM in the foyer or hall better take a look at who they are listening to. Did Jesus even own a coin purse? Who did Jesus promise wealth to if they followed him? Who did Jesus tell Peter gave the greatest gift at the temple in Jerusalem? It 's not wizards who are destroying our culture. It's Greed, Selfishness, judgement of others, lack of ethics and the all encompassing drive to accumulate material wealth. If you can't see that may God help you.
peace be with you.
-
Daniel
The term “magic” comes from the word “magi”. The magi visited the Christ as a toddler, giving various gifts along with an invitation for the Christ to visit them in their homelands after he became of age. Though the current Bible omits a whole section on the life of the Christ, other scriptures had recorded how the Christ visited the magi, while studying each of their ways. Our current “science” is like someone playing yahtzee with only three dice. When magi, like the Christ, access the full laws of nature it’s like adding the missing pair of dice (pair-a-dise). For those not able to see or access the full laws of nature the unexplainable acts of the magi were labeled as magic, similar to how “miracles” are attributed to the unexplainable acts of an unseen magi called God. One of the works of christianity is to reconcile others to the Christ. I’ve done this many times with Wiccans by pointing out that calling Lazarus back from the dead could be seen as necromancy and feeding the masses bread and fish could be seen as transmutation; so Christ should AT LEAST be recognized as having been a powerful Shaman. Some form of reconciliation. For buddhists the Christ could AT LEAST be recognized as an enlightened bodhisvata. For Hindus Christ could AT LEAST be recognized as s powerful swami. etc. The goal is to inspire ANY form of reconciliation as a means to share the “wedding garments” mentioned by the Christ in the story of how, when the “chosen” were too busy doing other things the bridesmaid found others from the streets and ally ways to attend the wedding feast. So- If some want to identify the Christ as AT LEAST being a wizard. Cool. It’s a form of SOME reconciliation. Maybe later these same people can see of the biggest differences is that the Christ drew the power straight from the one source of the One God, while wizards and such usually are only working with the “water” downstream that’s of questionable purity.
-
Rod Gesner
"Christian" Witches have been around since the First Xtian churches Conquered the Nearest Pagans and Said "Convert or Die" ;)
and as Far as taking words out of context? in the context of the times: "Turn the other Cheek": Meant if Someone Struck you Like you were a Slave or Lower Class.. You Offer them the cheek where Equals Strike to Challenge... Thus Saying: "I am Not Your Lesser; but Your Equal"...
and Foot Washing? as Jesus and Mary Magdeline were known to Do... was Slang for Sex/Making love... Hooking up;)
-
Hank Stanco
Neither of those explanations is true. Try again.
-
-
lperry
"Christian witches" are like oil and water; these simply do not mix for a reason. There were the Burning Times, the Inquisition, and other condemnations of witchcraft which they apparently have overlooked while happily exploiting and reinterpreting biblical passages to promote themselves in a fantastic attempt to reconcile their actions and practice. Silly and distasteful at best.
-
T Kosse`
The Wizard seek to use these tools to understand the complex nature of all things, and eventually put that knowledge to good use. In history, people regarded Wizards as one who wield mystical power and magic. In truth a true Wizard (vs. a charlatan) gained a lot of respect simply because he was a student of Nature who could explain these forces in simple yet supernatural ways. They indeed practice magic, and some may have elements of Wiccan beliefs or practices as part of their path. Its is really up to the Wizard to determine what other designation if any, he chooses to accept
The word Wizard first appeared around the 14th Century (CE). Linguistics feel it came from the terms that equated to a person who is wise. The word “wizen” still remains in use for describing a person who is prudent, astute and judicious.
As for the Sorcerer, this person master their arts thanks to being born into a magical family. Our ancestors saw the Sorcerer as one with power over the Spirit world and a refined diviner. The term appears in the early 1500s CE from French or Latin foundations. In both instance, the name implied a lot caster and fortune teller
-
Sara Jean Demick
Well, here is some very interesting information, about lost scripture, and scripture kept from us by Roman Catholics thousands of years ago. I find this just as believable as any other scriptures I've seen or read. I was brought up in an Orthodox Jewish Home, went to Hebrew school, wa a educated in the old testament. I searched for years trying to find my co ection with the creaor.I ve also attended many churches, been baptized, and never felt any connection until I became a solitary practiced of neo paganism...(my term for my beliefs in the power of nature, elements, using what theater gave us to heal ect. I found this info not long ago.Everyone has there own beliefs and truths. Why can't there be a mutual respect and not all the hate from so called "christian" I dont get all the anger. Sure discuss, but, how can people that claim to be about love spread so much judgment and hate. That goes for people of all faiths, as there are many. Anyway, read this if you are interested or don't. I find it very interesting https://www.scribd.com/document/402385001/Was-Jesus-Secretly-A-Magician-pdf
-
Sara Jean Demick
Here David Griffin and his partner Lesle Mcqaid, perform a daily ritual to the Angels, from the hidden teachings of Jesus. Just food for thought https://youtu.be/hublu7ROg4k I suggest you watch and either debunk or embrace or simply educate yourself to the many unique and different beliefs that all of humanity have.
-
Giancarlo Pozotrigo
They are scammers! IDIOTS!!
Christian witchcraft is a paradox. The two are in classic opposition. Just READ what the bible says. Anyone who said "no, it's possible" is STUPID. only idiots who are too lazy to do 10 minutes of research before selling their SOULS to years of fruitless cult worship, would ever believe such a stupid concept.
Further more, meditate! God is the term for singularity consciousness. We exist in a physical reality confined by what limits? By INFINITE SPACE??
Here's a drop of realty for the secular science community... there's no such mathematical reality known as a vertical assymtote! Meaning space cannot continue infinitely. What ever exists, has to be defined by the limits of relative distance to some confining barrier, which itself also has to be confined by some limit and so on and so on... therefore reality itself, as a physical construct and concept, is a paradox, cause it HAS to continue infinitely within limits of something, and then something else, etc etc, by definition of our own minute human logic. Hence, its impossible since infinite existence is mathematically impossible. The meta and quantum reality of the situation is that imagination (consciousness) is the only known thing to exist outside the limits of a construct. Therefore, the simulation theory (Or matrix movie type theory) is the only viable possibility, and must exist within the consciousness since physical reality cannot actually be a real concept within a mathematical limit theory. The 5 senses we have to tell us that our realty is real is only an illusion, but since it's not an illusion we have control over (i can't make the cup on the table magically move, at least not without some external "spirit" assisting me), it only leaves us to realize that the consciousness controlling the reality we're currently perceiving, is outside of ourselves. That consciousness is responsible for the concept of good and bad (Or positive/ negative), and leaves you with one thing, the choice between the two.
NOW MEDITATE ON WHY.
You will realize there is truth to be found in the bible. And of course this is the quick, roughly summarized explanation of the meditative and logical proof of God. I'm not going to go deeper, if anyone is too thick headed to stop and actually give half a days worth of thought to these real concepts, they are not really worth listening to, nor deserving of speaking. None of you are believing in evidence. Its all faith. For you to even think the two hands in front of you are real, and more than a construct of you're perceived reality, is itself, just a faith, based on some perception you have accepted as fact.
You are actually here to grow. That's why assending was called 'rebirth '. You are like a fetus in the womb when you are growing. You are like sperm seeking an egg when you are seeking, and only some will find their way. Jesus is the way.
'DROPS THE MIC'
Absolutely!!!!
Jesus was a mystic and when one actually studied him and metaphysics there’s no denying it
From a personal perspective, I have found the writings of Jesus to be far more esoteric than exoteric. His "miracles" were of a social nature, not by anything "magical." A couple of examples might include:
The feeding of the many - Culturally, what were the precursors of the desert dwellers (Bedouins), those who would travel, selling their wares along the way, were well known for "stashing" important items, including bread and dried fish, in their clothing so as to preserve them in case of pirates, which were quite plentiful during that time, were to rob them. They were not forthcoming when it came to sharing. It is most likely that Jesus taught them that sharing was vital for their survival and that they should "cough up" their goods in order for everyone to get through their ordeal. Indeed, to get them to share was quite a social miracle.
The raising of the dead - Lazarus - When a male member of the family would embarrass the household, the patriarch would tear his coat sleeve and proclaim "I no longer have a son. He is dead to me." That one who caused the embarrassment would be evicted from the family, shunned from the rest of the family, permanently. It is most likely that Jesus got the father to forgive Lazarus, allowing him to "come back to life." Another amazing thing to happen socially in that culture.
There are many other possibilities - Causing the "blind man" to "see" - as in becoming aware with understanding, NOT any physical miracle but again, a social miracle. The list can be made quite long to take it in an esoteric perspective and not literally.
Given we do not even know that Jesus as "son of God" was real, it is ALL speculation and faith-based belief.
I agree, we should not take the Bible literally, but with a social view.
Well said.
Well said and enlightening.
"But the natural man does not recieve the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them , because they are spiritually discerned." 1Corinthians 2:14..One must not expect those outside the faith of Christianity to understand that a personal relationship with Jesus Christ must exist for comprehension to dawn.
Thanks so much for showing us just how evil Christianity really is. Demonize anyone who disagrees, and belittle anyone outside the faith as a lesser being. But turn around and call THEM names (like John Campbell just called me) and they cry that they are the victims. Pathetic.
I quoted scripture found in the Holy Bible that explains why one would find the idea of a spiritual experience with Jesus Christ foolishness. There is no need to demonize those outside the faith as that is not in character with the one I serve. The feeling of being a " lesser being" is, perhaps, an issue one should take up with a psychological evaluation.
Yes I'm a natural man, and I have no wish to have a personal relationship with another man for any type of comprehension to dawn (whatever that really means). Some might want that, and that's okay.
Joking asside: I do know what you mean though because I was at one time just as messed up in my head with religion as yourself. I used to say the same ridiculous things because not only did it sound good, I actually had convinced myself to believe it. No one was ever going to convince me differently. Then I did some real soul searching (whatever soul is) and it slowly dawned on me that much of the bible is absolute rubbish. I now can't believe I was once convinced about everything I read. Now, not only am I a natural man, and my dog is a natural dog, but I am free, and very much happier having been saved by logic and reason. Recovery from religion wasn't easy, but it was well worth it.