Jesus will no longer provide a personal welcome to motorists entering a small Texas town.
For the past several years, a sign along U.S. Highway 80 outside of Hawkins, Texas has been the source of an intense religious freedom battle. The sign, put up by a former mayor of the town, read "Jesus Welcomes You to Hawkins."
The sign soon sparked complaints from some residents who were uncomfortable seeing such an explicitly Christian message on public property. After a long and very public battle over the sign, city officials quietly took it down late last month.
Community members who supported leaving it up are understandably disappointed, but the outcome was not for a lack of effort on their part.
The story behind this fight is worth a read.
Standing on the Side of Jesus
The sign was originally installed by former mayor Will Rogers in 2011, who reportedly was frustrated by the lack of Christian unity in his small town and decided something must be done about it. To help make the project a community effort, he outsourced the sign's creation to a high school shop class and put it up on city-owned property along the side of the highway. But things only got stranger from there.
When the Freedom From Religion Foundation filed a complaint over the messaging, Rogers argued that the sign wasn't actually promoting Christianity. He even invoked a comparison to Superman, explaining:
"What violation is it for someone to welcome you into a town? If you don't believe that Jesus existed then he would be fiction. If he's fiction, and you want to remove his name from everything, then you have to remove every fiction name from across the country. That means we couldn't say 'Superman welcomes you to town.'"
The sign remained standing.
A Holy Loophole
Apparently frustrated by years of controversy, the Hawkins City Council eventually voted to remove the sign permanently. But one local man who wanted Jesus to stick around had an idea to thwart them: he created a church on the piece of land where the sign stood. The newly-founded church then claimed the sign was official church property and went to court seeking to protect it.
It remains unclear how the group was able to found a church on public property, but whatever the reasoning, a court did not buy their argument. The city won the case, giving it the right to the land and to decide the sign's fate.
All Falls Down
Fast forward to June 2019: Police officers responded to a disturbance call in the early morning hours one day to find the sign had been taken down. Officers eventually learned Hawkins city workers had removed it. Needless to say, some residents were not pleased.
"The city employees destroyed our church property, pulled up our crosses and destroyed everything," declared church trustee Mark McDonald. "We're treating it like a hate crime of religious discrimination that was conspired by the city." Church members and supporters of the sign have vowed to fight the matter in court.
In the meantime, however, folks in Hawkins will have to get by without Jesus' roadside blessing.
208 comments
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Carol
Very disturbing news! It upsets me greatly how fast the decision to take down anything of the Christian world yet others display their religion with no issues. Pure evil in this world pure evil! I hope the People can put the sign back up. Everyone could use Jesus in their lives.
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Lionheart
Church signs and their symbols should be placed on church property, private property, or other correctly designated places not being maintained by our taxes.
Would you like to see a sign that says "Allah Welcomes You" or "The Lord Krishna Welcomes You"? Should we pay for their maintenance?
?♥️
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Tom B
Lionheart...exactly...it should only be on church or private property...Peace...Tom B
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Don
Carol, you see other religions openly displaying bigoted messages on public property? Link them here, please...because I do not believe you.
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kimberly
It was harmless. The bigotry originates from intolerance of a simple welcome sign of a town in the middle of nowhere.
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Don
So you couldn't find any, could you? But please, keep deflecting, it makes you look so honest...
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kimberly
Objectivity requires honesty
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Don
"Objectivity requires honesty"
It most certainly does. So you admit there's no objectivity in Christianity, since its precepts are all based on dishonesty and lies. Or do you ignore the truth?
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kimberly
Yes....Christianity is as false a religion as Islam. However, that doesn't mean God, Jesus and the Bible are fake.
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Lionheart
You are quite right Kim, but they are. You just can’t see it yet.
?❤️
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Don
The Bible is real. It exists.
Your gods and saviors...not so much. Unless you have empirical evidence to prove otherwise? But you don't - and please don't post more lies and claim you do. Thanks.
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Amie Zischke
Kim, people in that town, residents of that town wanted it down, not some random people from who knows where. Religion had no place on city property or in it's government. Religion is yours, you're free to practice it how you like, but it does not belong in public as a proclamation made by the government of that city. Not everyone is required to follow your religion and not everyone believes what you believe. Christians are the worst with the, "woe is me" routine when someone doesn't want that religion shoved down their throat. You are not being persecuted or discriminated against. Keep your religion to yourself, no one else cares
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Randall
The "Holy Bible"... World's 2nd most read work of fiction
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Lionheart
Also known as the least read best seller.
?❤️
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kimberly
Lion...….you're right. Too few actually read the Bible and too many go to church to have it twisted into incomprehensible "religious" pretzels. Then, they head out as "Christians" and think they know what's in it.
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ET
Carol, I can understand how those of us who were brought up as Christians, in Christian communities can be upset with changes in previously accepted practice. But as people with different beliefs move in to our country, as good Americans, it is our responsibility to accept them and respect their right to worship in the manner that suits that belief as long as they also adopt our ways of inclusion. Inclusion is the glue that will hold America together as a nation. If we don’t keep our religious beliefs within our own groups and refrain from using public space to advertise them, we will be providing the basis for the religious conflict that has divided nations and caused wars that destroyed the lives of countless families. And finally, Carol, would you really support having a public official of another faith displaying his/her religious message on your public property? Your next mayor could be of the Muslim or Jewish faith.
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John
As we welcome others with different beliefs..like gang raping western women, and declaring sharia law, we should as a collective population definately tear down anything that might represent love, that might make our adorable new comers "Uncomfortable"...I cant wait for the town signs declaring "Satan welcomes you"...oh yea..thats Las Vegas
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ET
John, Religion aside, those who choose to live in our country must abide by our laws and be held accountable. We have people of other beliefs living quite peaceably in our country while obeying our laws. "We are all children of the same universe". I hope your path leads you to peace. Be well.
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Tom B
ET...well said...Peace...Tom B
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Carl Elfstrom
We've heard enough from the Christian world; a lot more than we can tolerate. It's time to take a break. And good riddance!!!
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kimberly
And therein lies the problem. You're intolerant.
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Wayward73
They can put their sign up if I can put one up next to it saying "Loki and Eris Welcome You"
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Amie Zischke
Carol, what other religions are displaying something? Where? Your statement is simply not true
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Mary Benoit
It would be ok if Jesus or Superman was actually there to welcome travelers. Not being “that kind of christian’ I would keep going.
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Carl Elfstrom
Superman wouldn't be caught dead with the likes of Jesus. Can you remember a single episode in which Superman prayed? He was more likely to say something like "Vini Vidi Vidi", as would the other super hero's, wouldn't you agree?
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kimberly
Superman is a comic book.
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Don
So is Jesus. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/12/arts/second-coming-jesus-comic-book.html
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kimberly
Only to make Jesus appear fictional. Don't be obtuse.
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Don
MAKE Jesus appear fictional? DO you have anything that supports him NOT being fictional? There's better evidence for Spider Man than there is for Jesus. Sorry, but it's true.
Oh, and I'm not being obtuse, Kim. I'm not the one pretending supernatural nonsense is real. (or using it to justify bigotry and racism)
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Colleen McAllister
Jesus is an historical figure as documented by the books gathered in that which many call the New Testament, as well as several others not in the "canon". As non-religious texts, try reading Josephus, a 1st century ROMAN historian.
Oh, and plenty of comic books have been written about REAL people. Just open you eyes and look for them.
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Don
"Jesus is an historical figure as documented by the books gathered in that which many call the New Testament"
Ah yes, the same New Testament that claims zombie armies are real. So, no actual evidence that Jesus existed. Thanks for confirming that.
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kimberly
Evidence that Jesus existed is in the Koran, in various Roman writings and in the New Testament of the Bible. If you think that Jesus' existence need be other than that then you are mistaken.
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Don
"the Koran, in various Roman writings and in the New Testament of the Bible."
The Bible and the Qur'an are the CLAIMS, not the EVIDENCE. You also claimed to have empirical, contemporary Roman records of Jesus. I say you're lying. Post them here and prove me wrong.
And please don't mention Josephus, Tacitus, or Pliny the Younger...unless you want to be vilified for using "evidence" that has been refuted for decades.
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kimberly
Frankly Donnie...I don't have to.
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Don
"I don’t have to."
You are right. You do not have to. But everyone reading this thread can see the claims you've made as if they were factual. You do not have to answer for them, but not doing so speaks volumes about your honesty and character...or lack thereof.
But yes, it is indeed your choice. Choose wisely...or don't.
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Carl Elfstrom
I'm the kind of non-christian who would drive by, and when nobody was looking I'd take the sign down, put it in the back of my truck, and drive away with it. Too bad I don't have a truck, but maybe somebody who's reading this will be inspired to drive around the country, and take the proper initiative. Faith without works is dead. It's not the messenger, but the message that counts.
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kimberly
You're a thief. I wouldn't trust you with my truck.
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Rev. Dr. Gordon Francis Blaney Jr.
The constitution is quite clear on religious freedom and the separation of church and state. No government law and no government action is constitutional in regards to violating the religious freedom of others and or enforcing non-separation of church and state. Matthew 22:21 (New Revised Standard Version) states: "They answered, “The emperor’s.” Then he said to them, “Give therefore to the emperor the things that are the emperor’s, and to God the things that are God’s". It is clear that Jesus wants us to respect the law of men as long as it's not a violation of the law of God. Ergo, the sign is alright being placed as a church sign from a church on church land, but it had no business being placed as a sign from the government on government land, as it is in violation of the constitution. Christians should learn to stop be so self-righteous and pious about their faith. We're called to express the word of God not force it on others or enforce the law; that's God's realm. And, I don't feel like being God or taking God's role from Him.
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Ken
I actually lived there for a couple of years and lived in the next town down the highway (abt 10 miles) for decades.
Actually, the courts of competent jurisdiction found...with tons of evidence and arguments from surveys, historical photos, title searches, etc. that the land...in fact...was private property all along and never was public property. At some point long ago, the city just began maintaining it and eventually claimed it was gov't property with no legal title transfer ever even attempted. The rightful owner transferred the land upon which the sign was erected to a newly founded religiously chartered, tax exempt corporation via donation. And that was supposed to be that.
In reality, this became the symbol of an old feud between a city councilman and a mayor. The councilman is from a multi-generational Hawkins family and they former mayor moved in there, built a successful business on the main drag, got elected mayor, and started trying to change things in ways the old guard didn't appreciate. You see, this town is TINY and home turf for some folks who prefer to stay off the radar for a few different, but similar, reasons. They tend to be wary of the press and the government. Some of them are doomsday prepper types, the area is home turf for The Cossacks MC (ie the Waco biker shooting of a few years back), a bunch are just long-haired country boy types who make their own "medicinal" products. Several years ago, Nestle built a major water bottling plant north of town and all sorts of "outsiders" began showing up and small businesses popping up.
The Freedom from Religion Foundation, Inc. pounced on the growth pains of a tiny town in the middle of nowhere thinking no one there would have the resources to fight them in federal court. That was a mistake. Next thing they knew, there were armed militia members standing 24/7 guard duty shifts on the sign, which was near the only red light intersection in town. There is actually a lot of "old money" from the Hainesville Shale oil boom that owns large family farms and oil & gas leases all over that area. Many of them are Fundamentalist Christians.
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ET
Private land, private sign. If this is the fact, I have no argument.
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William Waugh
Seems to me that folks should get busy putting up their own signs if they dont like the lack of representation. Equality should mean placing your own stuff instead of tearing down anothers.My own belief is more closely alligned with pantheism, but enlightened people understand and respect the matriarch or patriarch of established world religions. This is really a PETTY peeve. Kinda in the same boat as being pissed off 'cus the light hasnt changed green yet. Focus and elevate your harmonics.
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kimberly
I don't see anybody complaining about Hell, Michigan. There's a sign there too...."welcome to hell"
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Don
And that, dear Kim, would be because it's not a religious sign. ;)
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kimberly
He'll is as religious as Jesus puddin
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Rev. Dr. Gordon Francis Blaney Jr.
No. Kim. Hell the place on Earth is different from Hell the biblical location. When the sign states welcome to Hell, it's not religious. Please, don't be ignorant.
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kimberly
Wrong....I been there.....its quite associated with the religious version. It is hilarious. But in light of this conversation Hell portrays how aggressively hypocritical so-called secularists have become.
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Lori
It's kind of like Intercourse PA. It doesn't mean they're all about Intercourse......or does it????
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Carrie
Perhaps it is Kim, perhaps it is...however it is nonsense in this case. You name your town Hell, you can put up a sign. You name your town Jesus, you can put up a sign. If the town isn't named Jesus, leave the sign for church property! Just a thought.....
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kimberly
They might say it is but Jesus has nothing to do with a "church" organization.
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Lori
A good thought Carrie. And Kim just rambles on....
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Don
"He’ll is as religious as Jesus puddin"
Lose the apostrophe...if you really think your god is fooled by punctuation...you have a silly god. And Hell, Michigan is an actual place I can prove exists...unlike your Jesus.
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kimberly
Hell Michigan was named by one of its citizens who when asked responded "you can call it hell for all I care". It was named in a proper Christian manner. So why aren't secular hypocrites after it?
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Don
Poor Kim, this has been explained to her 4 times now. It doesn't matter HOW it was named, it is the NAME OF THE TOWN. And thanks for admitting you've been there, proving it EXISTS.
Are you getting it yet? Sheesh!
Also, can you name an actual "secular hypocrite" or are you spewing your sleazy lies again?
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kimberly
Donnie...dont you know that Corpus Christi Texas is named for Jesus. Its a "christian" city. There's nothing wrong with references to Jesus in any context. Don't try to pretend it is.
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Don
Poor little Kimmie. Corpus Christi is Latin for Body of Christ. And it's the actual name of a city. Again, it doesn't matter HOW or WHY it was named, IT IS THE NAME OF THE TOWN.
Are we learning yet? DERP
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Carl Elfstrom
Do many Satanists live there?
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Don
Hey Carl, Satanists don't believe in a literal Hell.
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kimberly
Satan doesn't live in hell silly. He roams the earth same as we do. You've been lied to by religion and don't even realize it.
And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
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Don
You've been lied to by religion, Kim. Satan is imaginary.
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Colleen McAllister
Satan i real; I've met him.
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Lionheart
That's very interesting Colleen. What's he like? Doe's he really have horns? What's his voice like? Is it like deep and thunderous. What did he say to you when you met him? Did he give you any advice?
Sorry that I have lots of questions but you have me intrigued.
?♥️
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Don
Colleen, if you are being serious, please seek medical help. Mental illness is not a laughing matter.
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Don
And why did you bring up Satan? No one else mentioned it.
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kimberly
Somebody asked if he lived in hell
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Don
"Somebody asked if he lived in hell"
Not on this page. Please learn to read comments thoroughly before responding, that way you won't make yourself look foolish. The question that was asked (and answered) was "Do many Satanists live there?".
You're welcome.
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Wayne Stevens
You know I find this whole thing unbelievable why all the bickering about religion last I heard this is a country of freedom of speech which includes religion Bieber private property or public property as a whole or at least from the beginning of the founding of this country this is a Christian country another words keep it under your mind or in mind that I don't think it matters which religion you belong to or what you up old I think the forefathers of the country rent this to me so for crying out loud leave the religions freedom of thought alone there are plenty of other things to concern people with just read the news follow the news in TV radio maybe even a little Common Sense would hurt anyway enough is enough Reverend Wayne
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Don
"from the beginning of the founding of this country this is a Christian country"
Nope, not even close. The U.S.A. is a secular nation. Read the Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11, ratified into law on 1797: "the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
Oh, and Wayne? Please learn some grammar; that was painful to read.
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Wayne Stevens
Don do you use money when you buy things. Take a real close look at the dollar bill if it isn't too painful to read notice that says on it in God we trust so that means we don't believe in God right I don't know very wise in a deflection on grammar however it did not work anyway Don may God bless you Reverend Wayne
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Don
You might want to research what you're talking about prior to trying to use the information to discredit someone. In your case, our paper money had the phrase "In God We Trust" illegally added to it on July 30, 1956 after pressure from the Knights of Columbus. Prior to that, our country's motto - you DID know we have a motto, right - was on all our currency. The motto is "E Pluribus Unum" - out of many, one.
I never deflect on grammar, but if you want adults to take you seriously, I suggest learning the basics, like punctuation.
You're welcome.
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kimberly
In God we trust is the official national motto
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Galin Pheylan
Kim is a lost trumper Cause. (And those here, like her; if not for arguing, and spewing nonsense, they would be dead. For the record, "In God We Trust", and "One Nation, Under God" were added way after the originals; never was, is, or will be a National Motto. Christianism has taken the word "make" to equal the word "force", when a supposedly "Annointed One" spoke, "Make disciples".
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kimberly
Gain dear......making disciples was not a generic directive. It was specific to the apostles to complete their work. Religion usurped that directive and the apostles work. They did so as thieves and liars. The apostles completed their work. It was not somehow unfinished and passed to self-proclaimed "christians".
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ET
Wayne, I have to differ with you. This is NOT A CHRISTIAN COUNTRY! Many of our founding fathers were atheists. Christians need get over the idea that this is a Christian nation and embrace the fact that our country is stronger when we accept that we are a nation of varied belief systems.
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Dustin
Our country was actually founded on Christian principles, its amazing how much you people spew things out and have no clue of history, let me help you.....it will be long:
John Adams President and Signer of the Declaration of Independences
"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be." --Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.
Thomas Jefferson President, Drafer and Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever..." --Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.
Benjamin Franklin Signer of the Declaration of Independence and US Consitution
"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.
"That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.
"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;
"But I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure." --Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790.
Roger Sherman Signer of the Declaration of Independence and US Constitution
"I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the same in substance equal in power and glory. That the scriptures of the old and new testaments are a revelation from God, and a complete rule to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy him. That God has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass, so as thereby he is not the author or approver of sin. That he creates all things, and preserves and governs all creatures and all their actions, in a manner perfectly consistent with the freedom of will in moral agents, and the usefulness of means. That he made man at first perfectly holy, that the first man sinned, and as he was the public head of his posterity, they all became sinners in consequence of his first transgression, are wholly indisposed to that which is good and inclined to evil, and on account of sin are liable to all the miseries of this life, to death, and to the pains of hell forever.
"I believe that God having elected some of mankind to eternal life, did send his own Son to become man, die in the room and stead of sinners and thus to lay a foundation for the offer of pardon and salvation to all mankind, so as all may be saved who are willing to accept the gospel offer: also by his special grace and spirit, to regenerate, sanctify and enable to persevere in holiness, all who shall be saved; and to procure in consequence of their repentance and faith in himself their justification by virtue of his atonement as the only meritorious cause...
"I believe that the souls of believers are at their death made perfectly holy, and immediately taken to glory: that at the end of this world there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a final judgement of all mankind, when the righteous shall be publicly acquitted by Christ the Judge and admitted to everlasting life and glory, and the wicked be sentenced to everlasting punishment." --The Life of Roger Sherman, pp. 272-273.
I got plenty more if you need it
What funny is you people will support homosexuals doing lewd acts in public when march for their cause, accept pedophiles what do you think the + inlcudes, hanging their crap on public property and throw a fit when people dont want it there, but as soon as Jesus anything is out in public you have a melt down, government as the founding fathers point out is suppose to be lead based on Gods law, instead we have mans law doing all kinds of wicked things.
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Don
Another ignorant toad who equates homosexuality with pedophilia. I suggest that any and every creep that does this is, in fact, a child molester trying to get false claims about homosexuals accepted so they can continue to victimize children.
Sick and perverse. I'm sure Jesus would approve. /s
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Dustin
Don, you call them what you will but people who came out of the homosexual life style will tell you that recruiting kids in to the lifestyle is a big part of it (David Author), . Do you see drag queen story time taking place in nursing homes? Why are the child targeted? How come when this lifestyle is out in public to march or whatever, they are often lewd, dressed like whores, and act out of control. There is plenty of evidence that points to serious events that took place usually growing up as kids that puts them on a track to homosexual deathstyle, the average lifestyle for people that engage in this type of behavior is 39 to 42 years (https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.2190/G94Q-XMFY-3G33-0XRE?journalCode=omea) and (https://www.familyresearchinst.org/2012/01/how-long-do-homosexuals-live/).
Your view of what a Christian is shows clearly that you have never see a real Christian. I assume your perspective is they are push overs who are suppose to "love" every one. A Christian is suppose to be bold as a lion, who is not scared to preach the gospel, never once did Jesus say we are to save people, he simple said go into the world and preach the gospel. If you choose to live a life of wickness and filth thats on you, you want to live your "best life now," go ahead and do it, no skin off my back. If your truely comfortable that is there no God then good for you, but if there is a God he wont help you when you move on to the nex life. But I can guarantee you one thing, that you have not lived a life that has been as blessed as mine. Living a life based on Gods law is much harder than doing whatever I want, but the rewards have been a heck of a lot better than the old life I came from. The more I read and understand the word the more it makes sense of why people like yourself act and say the things you do.
The reals Christains out there are far and few between, most people in the church are on a one way ticket to hell, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matt 7:13-14, of course posting scripture to the natural man is almost worthless, so I will turn that over to the Holy Spirit, no way I can convince a puffed up dude like yourself, some how your knowledge based on no truth and all feelings is some how more right than billions of christians and the history books, well that is if you read the real history (Suggestion, dont start reading out of the Catholic libraries).
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Don
People who lie like you are probably the ones molesting kids. You are a disease on our species, your very own words prove it. Pathetic and disgusting. I hope they catch you soon.
(oh, and nice tough with the ignorant and bigoted sites you posted, it just confirms what I just said about you)
Funny how Christians like you don't seem to understand the word CONSENT.
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ET
Dustin, I agree our country was founded using Judeo-Christian principles. The Star of David also adornes our one dollar bill on the reverse and above the eagle in the circle on the right side. It was put there to honor Hayem Solomon, a wealthy patriot who gave $25 million to the Continental Army to help win the war. He died a pauper.
Maybe we’ll all be saved by a great Unicorn!
It’s all in the mind of the beholder. Whatever anyone thinks becomes their own reality. No one really knows for sure, even though they might believe they do. Best wishes to all on the quest for ultimate truth.
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Lori
May the Unicorn be with you! ET, I liked what you wrote here. "Whatever anyone thinks becomes their own reality". These are my feelings as well. Nice.
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Rev. Dr. Gordon Francis Blaney Jr.
But the widespread existence in 18th-century America of a school of religious thought called Deism complicates the actual beliefs of the Founders. Drawing from the scientific and philosophical work of such figures as Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Isaac Newton, and John Locke, Deists argued that human experience and rationality—rather than religious dogma and mystery—determine the validity of human beliefs. In his widely read The Age of Reason, Thomas Paine, the principal American exponent of Deism, called Christianity “a fable.” Paine, the protégé of Benjamin Franklin, denied “that the Almighty ever did communicate anything to man, by…speech,…language, or…vision.” Postulating a distant deity whom he called “Nature’s God” (a term also used in the Declaration of Independence), Paine declared in a “profession of faith”:
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Brian Balke
The attempt to interpret the Bible as literal history has frustrated every apologist. What is compelling to me about the book is the centuries-spanning logic of social development from family to tribe to nation. If you are going to denounce it as a fable, yet still it deserves to be analyzed as a fable of unusual power and insight. And when I got to the end of that process, I discovered that it is made far clearer to the mind when we take twentieth century paleontology as an aid. Yes, I assert that the Bible contains descriptions of paleontology that predate the science by seven thousand years.
The American Founders wrote during an era in which science undermined the project of escalatory theism - that the only God worth worshipping is all-powerful and all-loving. The gift of human agency (what would have been called "free will") complicates the picture. At this time, I believe that I could resolve all of their questions, and firmly establish Jesus of Nazareth as an existence proof that we all must honor and seek to emulate if humanity is going to survive the unethical application of our scientific prowess.
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kimberly
That's a bit rhetorical but it sounds like you have a good perspective.
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ET
Wayne, this is not a Christian country! It is a country that is SECULAR.
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kimberly
Code of Federal Regulations is based on Christian principles. Militant extremists are TRYING to make this a godless country. This is a big difference from claiming this country is secular. It is not and Secular is not the goal at all. The elimination of God is the goal. And not just in government. That is just a first step.
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Lionheart
It’s okay sweetie. Many of us understand what you are going through. Some of us have even been where you currently are in your thought structure. You sincerely believe the goal is to eliminate something that doesn’t exist.....and that’s okay. Really!
I’m sure you are not on your own. We want to help you as best we can. Please keep telling us what’s on your mind and in your head. We’ll try and help in any way we can. It helps you to talk about these things, doesn’t it?
?❤️
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ET
Kim, I do appreciate your thought-provoking comments. They help me to think through my own ideas, so thanks. This country is based upon the principle of freedom to believe in whatever religion you want as long as no laws are broken, but that government will not dictate what that religious belief will be. By saying this is a Christian country you are implying other religions are not free to practice their beliefs. Belief in God or no God is not the business of the USA. We are free to believe as we will. This principle is what helps to make us a desirable place in which to live.
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kimberly
Being founded on Christianity does NOT mean Christianity is dictated. Quite the opposite. Christianity is the only religion tolerant of other religious views.
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Tom B
ET...well said...Peace...Tom B
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kimberly
Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.
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Don
"Christianity is the only religion tolerant of other religious views."
Hahahahahahaha!!!! That WAS a joke, whether or not Kim realizes it. "Suffer not a witch to live" - such tolerance!
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kimberly
That directive was for the purpose to bring Messiah into the world. It was to save humanity by allowing Messiah to come into the world without blemish. Men reign in the world now and will until Jesus returns. It is why witches, freaks and perverts aren't often litigated against by current government.
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Fred Lotz
So mote it me
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Don
“Christianity is the only religion tolerant of other religious views.”
"witches, freaks and perverts"
Tell us again, Kim, just how loving and tolerant you are. Ignorant bigotry like yours should be illegal.
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kimberly
I certainly am tolerant. Even of witches, freaks and perverts. And even you puddin....my restraint is admirable considering your personal attacks on my gorgeous physique. Watch Jack Reacher..."if it was up to me, I'd just kill you". Good movie.
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Don
Another lie from Kim. Tolerant, rational people don't call others "freaks" and "perverts".
"your personal attacks" --- If you can't take it, perhaps you should stop dishing it out. Your hypocrisy is lame and immature. Grow up.
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Carl Elfstrom
We have to talk about something, and they don't let us pick and choose. If you don't like the article, find one in the blog archives that you prefer. If you stay on it long enough someone else might gain interest in the subject, and join you. But don't hold your breath. We generally try to stay in the present moment, and make the best out of whatever article they give us. It's the spiritual thing to do.
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kimberly
Learn from each other and find fellowship in your differences. Remember that love is not much different than hate since both are passions of the heart. You might find love for the person in the hate you feel for their opposition to you. Try it and be the better for trying.
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Don
“witches, freaks and perverts” Try not being an ignorant bigot. You will be the better for trying, but you have to try first.
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kimberly
Admitting that there are witches freaks and perverts is objectively facing reality. You should try it
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Don
"objectively facing reality"
Your magic sky fairy fails the test. Sorry Kimmy.
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ET
Kim and other children of the same universe, a loose quote by Voltaire: “I may disagree with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it!”. Peace be with you, and may your life see health, happiness and prosperity whatever path you choose to follow.
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S.Ong
Amen!
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ET
Kim, I like the phrase you used, "Learn from each other and find fellowship in your differences". Well spoken! Be well in your path toward enlightenment.
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Wayne Stevens
Well folks it's apartment a week and we're still at it aren't we why don't you dare Souls even tried deflection to try to discredit me Reverend Wayne
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Wayne Stevens
Well Don I am not taking you seriously either may God bless you Reverend Wayne
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Don
That's okay Wayne, as I do not take your spineless cowardly threats of damnation seriously, either.
Have a day.
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Allan Lee Brown
Do the supporters not get the irony of taking people to court over Jesus name? Just another example of Christamerican militaristic mindset. Completely foreign to the life and teachings of Jesus.
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kimberly
The mistaken idea that people of religion should not defend themselves shows the biblical illiteracy of those in opposition to religion.
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Cynthia Kukler Smith
Ive read your comments and this whole thing is sad, Stop and ask yourself ,What would God do !!!.Judgement day is coming you can take it up with him !!!
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Don
Sleazy cowardly threats of damnation have no place on this page. Shame on you. Grow up.
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Wayne Stevens
Finally somebody other than me seeing the True Light Of God bless you
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kimberly
It was a sign...not a light.
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Lionheart
I think he was talking in parables Kim, but then again, who knows?
?❤️
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Lone
I’d like to see more positive loving forms disagreement in this forum. I understood that this is where we share our ideas; disagreement does not have to be condescending to an individual.
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kimberly
Hi Lone.....If you're interested in dialogue that is harmonious, agreeable, loving and positive I suggest you talk to yourself while looking in the mirror.
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Colleen McAllister
That was a very rude answer. Look in your own mirror.
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Lionheart
Me too Lone, but I doubt it will happen, as evidenced by some people’s remarks. However, hang in there, and join the crusade of civility. Try not to get pulled into words of anger and rudeness as best you can. You will find many on here of a loving nature.
?❤️
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ET
Lionheart, I agree.
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Michael Garcia
PRAYER FOR GOD'S PEOPLE, OUR PRESIDENT, AND OUR NATION
Dear Father, I am calling on the full power and authority of the Holy Spirit, in Your mighty name we ask and pray to stop what the devil is trying to do to your people, our country and to our Nation.
The Devil is lying and trying to put fear into our minds and our hearts. He is trying to convince people of his lies about our country being racist. Father, remove all the lies being told, Stop and remove anyone who is against your people and our great Nation.
Father, we are seeing demons openly practicing their witchcraft, we are seeing their motives, trying to destroy what our Nation was founded on, Your principles one Nation under God, liberty, and justice for all.
Father, put it on everyone's heart who reads this prayer, to pray this prayer of authority and use this authority to cast down all evil that is surrounding our Nation at this moment. We will no longer have fear, sickness, confusion, division among your people or our Nation.
Father continue to protect our President, Vice President, Government officials, leadership, of all types including in our churches and schools.
We ask you Satan, your demons, minions and anyone else who worships you and works for you to be silenced and restrained from any more involvement against God's children and our Nation. You have no power over us or anything, we have full authority to tell you to stop in the name of Jesus name above all names to get behind us and you must obey. We rebuke you and your evil presence throughout this world.
As children of God, a praying Nation and with fervent prayers that are being heard, we claim this nation and our government in the mighty name of Jesus name above all names and ask that these prayers and request take effect immediately.
God bless everyone in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit amen.
Please share Our President and our Nation can use all the prayers they can get.
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Carrie
LOL...... Good one! I say to thee, "Begone foul demon......". You are a funny guy! Devil's, Satan, hell... meaningless! Just like the old adage of chasing a vampire off with a cross..... what if the vampire wasn't a Christian? I doubt it would work. This is for people's of all Faith's... you can't pray me away.
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Lionheart
Awe...bless him. He means well. Let’s have no derogatory statements. Many of us have been where he is. Thank you Michael.
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kimberly
Now I've heard everything....blessings from an atheist.
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Lionheart
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Don
Blessings from atheists are quite common, almost as common as hate filled ignorant lies from Christians. (c wut i did thar?)
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Lori
Wow. That was special! Michael, we are so fortunate that this kind of talk is slowly becoming a thing of the past. You can call to Satan all you want if it makes you happy. By doing so, you are giving him power within your own mind. The fear that is expressed through your spiritual reality is prevalent in so many fundamental Christians and the more you spew it out, the more rejection you will encounter. Personally, I find it rather insulting being called a demon. You must realize that you and your god have no power to silence anyone. Perhaps you should do a little more research into thought forms and personal spiritual realities. It only affects the person holding that spiritual reality. I do believe you are torturing yourself.
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Wayne Stevens
Light sign why make it so difficult just to support a comment
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Bill Fox
Although "In God We Trust" may not be establishment of religion, "Jesus" is the center of Christianity. Public land use is regulated by government, theoretically, for the benefit of all citizens. Christianity requires obedience of governments, if the laws do not require the worship of idols or false gods.
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Secretary3rd
Being a Republican when I'm not a Democrat is very hard in picking sides at where a religious faith should be place. One has to look at how many Christian churches are in that town or if any other faiths want their beliefs displayed. Think if your religion is from India with all of its Gods and what clutter that would be.
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Minster Raydeen
Jesus is coming back!! he don't need a sign, he already welcomes you and people refuse it... when he comes back, he looking for no spots or blemish. ARE YOU READY?
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Don
Cowardly threats of damnation have no place on this page. Shame on you.
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kimberly
Like so many who don't understand the bible......The return of Jesus is NOT the day of judgement.
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Lionheart
Can I sell you some ice to resell to eskimos in Greenland?
?♥️
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Wayward73
You do know that the second coming of Jesus happened already and is in The Bible, right?
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kimberly
In one respect that is correct. However, as he was being lifted up he clearly stated he would return. Acts 1:11
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Lionheart
Oh, thank goodness. That takes care of that then. Now we can all get on with our normal lives without worrying. Was his second coming reported on fake news CNN?
?❤️
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Jesus rep
Why give yourselves over to idle conversation? If the bible isnt true or real for you why argue over it? What are you accomplishing? If you dont like what the sign says look the other way!
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David
For a group of ministers of a church that claims universality and diversity of ALL religions, there surely is a lot of hatred and bigotry being expressed. Please remember that "we are all children of the same universe". Try listening with an open heart for a change instead of shouting.
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kimberly
passionate disagreement isn't bigotry. however there are some here who think that name-calling is an acceptable response to a differing perspective.
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Lori
David, you are so right in saying "we are all children of the same universe". Amidst the chaos of this blog we battle over whose path is the right one or the better one. Some claim no spiritual attachment, while others are so fully immersed in their own spiritual reality that they cannot see the core element that binds us all, and you expressed it well.
I see this blog as a place that, through the chaos, a spark of clarity may change and expand the consciousness of a few questioning souls. There might be some that can see beyond themselves and recognize that there is a creative force that is taking us into the future. Our choice is whether or not we want to be a conscious part of the flow, or to remain closed off, separating ourselves from a more unified reality. It's not about giving up one's beliefs, it's about becoming aware of what moves beneath them.-
ET
David and Lori, you have expressed it well! Celebrate what binds us as sentient beings regardless of our individual paths. Denigrating the beliefs or personalities of others does nothing to serve the better good. "we are all children of the same universe".
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kimberly
The universe is not our Patriarch. God is. The universe is as much a construct as we are.
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Lionheart
Your God is unfounded, and your statement is fallacious, but thank you for your opinion.
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kimberly
I was wondering where you went you old coot. We are God's. He is not mine. As for being unfounded, you have yet to put forth any cognitive evidence on such a ridiculous statement. Did you have a nice weekend?
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Lionheart
Great weekend thanks. I'm still here. Praise be to fairies ??♀️
Have you missed me ?
I'm not the one making the claim that god exists, you are, so where's your evidence? This sounds like a deja vu moment. Haven't we been at this one before?
?♥️
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Don
"you have yet to put forth any cognitive evidence on such a ridiculous statement"
Gosh Lionheart, it's almost as if Kim is talking to herself. I wonder if she'll answer...
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Lionheart
Oh! She will.
She’s under the misapprehension that if someone says something doesn’t exist, she thinks the burden of proof is for that person to prove it “doesn’t” exist, as opposed to the claimant having to prove their statement that it does exist.
?❤️
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kimberly
Wrong lion.....There is no logic in saying something doesn't exist when you have no evidence to the contrary. By such false logic you should also be saying Truth and Reality don't exist beyond your petty understanding. You're being small minded.
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kimberly
Lion...you seem to have a fixation on pretty little girls with wings. hmmmmmmmm Of course I missed you, you perv. I'm not claiming God exists. I'm simply acknowledging BY CHOICE based on scientific logic that existence is intuitively correct. There is plenty of empirical evidence to do so with validity, such as no civilization has EVER not acknowledged God's existence. And, we exist on a marble in an vast and dead cosmos. Such existence is an impossibility without God. Then, there is the Bible that despite being authored by innumerable people over thousands of years maintains an amazing integrity. So much so that men have built databases with the information contained in it.
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Don
Deflections, evasions, and a few petty insults for good measure, but still not a shred of evidence for Kim's claims. Just more unfounded claims.
Just stating the obvious, not that anyone is really surprised.
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Tom B
Kim...Respectfully...my understanding of the ULC slogan/motto/creed etc is that "universe" represents eternity, not a fact of astronomy and astrophysics...and there is no "Patriarch"; that is a sexist term...we are all part of God, incarnating as sentient beings through a karmic path, until no karma is left...but in terms of the astronomy/astrophysics "universe", I agree with you...Peace...Tom B
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kimberly
tomb....the Bible is HIGHLY patriarchal. Consequently, God is God the Patriarch (Father). Not in the familial sense but in the patriarchal sense. And Jesus is the patriarchal firstborn Son (Son of God). When the bible uses phrases such as "and his name shall be called" it is a patriarchal phrase equating to "and he shall be the SON of". Without such understanding, the Bible cannot be comprehended to be what the authors intended it to be. I suggest you work at recognizing reality rather than hiding ignorance with abstract eastern gibberish.
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Don
"no civilization has EVER not acknowledged God’s existence."
Pretty sure the ancient Egyptians, Persians, and Chinese civilizations, not to mention the Aztecs, Mayans, Toltecs, etc. did not acknowledge the Abrahamic god.
But feel free to prove me incorrect - with evidence.
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kimberly
Don....I didn't say they did. They did however acknowledge some form of deity. No civilization have existed that did not acknowledge some form of God. It doesn't need to be God as the Israelites knew. The evidence is clear on this so don't be obtuse.
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Lionheart
“no civilization has EVER not acknowledged God’s existence.”
Wow! That's a wild statement Kim. You can't possibly know that is a true statement, unless you have existed on this earth, and lived with every culture ever known to man over hundreds of thousands of years. And what about those cultures not known to man? Again, you make a very wild and fallacious statement.
I am part of a culture/civilization, and I do not acknowledge God's existence. I know of many others within our civilization who have NEVER acknowledged any gods existence, so what makes you think that people like me, and others, back in the history of time, didn't think and believe like myself?
If you come back to me with that pathetic "It's in our DNA" rubbish...then forget it.
?♥️
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Wayward73
Not that this isn't an entertaining argument to watch. But, can you tell me what this has to do with a sign in Texas?
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kimberly
Wayward.....It corrects a misstatement that if allowed to remain would affect any consensus surrounding the sign.
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Tom B
Kim...Respectfully...i can accept your point of view, without agreeing with it, up to your last, gratuitous sentence, which appears to demonstrate your fear of being wrong...the "bible" is a collection of writings from different people, that has been edited untold times, and does not reflect a message from God...and even for the reason you seem to consider it sexist, why do you support it?...God never prefers either men or women in this life...i hope you are open-minded enough to consider meditation, which would vastly benefit you...regardless, I wish you Peace...Tom B
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kimberly
The Bible is not meant to be a message from God. Nor has the original been edited since that has been lost in antiquity. We only have translations. However we do have numerous transcripts and where one transcript might be indecipherable another can give evidence as to the original writing. Even without the Bible we have it would remain a record and eyewitness against Mankind and will be used in the day of judgement. That is it's real value. And it will condemn us. On that I have meditated.
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ET
Kim, I respect that the path you have chosen to follow works for you. I wish you well as you follow it.
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Lori
And that's the only way to get away from it, ET. Set it free.
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ET
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Don
"the day of judgement"
WHAT "day of judgement" are you referring to? Evidence-based answers only. Please and thank you.
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kimberly
The "great and terrible day of the Lord". It is often mistaken to be the return of Jesus but it is not.
Mal 4 is about that day. Not about when Jesus was born
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Don
heavy sigh The Bible and its contents are the CLAIM, not the EVIDENCE. And you already know this because I've told you on several occasions. Obvious evasion is obvious.
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kimberly
Neither....the Bible is a record of eyewitness accounts. Valid in a court of law.
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Lionheart
Don, I think some characters also made many unsubstantiated claims in the Harry Potter books.
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kimberly
Lion....I think you just like the idea of walking around with a magic stick.
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Wayne Stevens
I was wondering myself what happened to the original discussion from how we are Humanity got lost again may we all have a day that whatever we want rev Wayne
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Don
Without elementary grammar and effective communication, Humanity may indeed get lost. Let's all make sure that does not happen. What do you say, Wayne?
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Pastor Bob
If I drove by that sign in Texas especially, I'd just assume the town has a Latino leader named Jesus.
It should never have been there in the first place.
?♥️
So true.
BS.....innumerable towns contain welcome signs that their churches put up. For example Oconowoc Wisconsin has a sign that states "the churches welcome you". Of course intolerant bigots are outraged by that too. Same for Sylvania Alabama. Same for nearly every small town that has church signs showing what churches are in the town. This is a concerted effort in religious intolerance perpetrated by those who would rather see hate than love in everything. Again, Hell Michigan doesn't have a problem even though it has obvious religious overtones throughout the community.
Also....Hondo Texas. I could go on and on.
There’s a difference when the church at its own expense and at no expense to the tax paying public puts up a welcoming sign and the mayor who puts one up at public expense.
Hondo city put up theirs
Kim, I don't know the details of the Hondo issue. I see the city "theme" seems to be "This is God's country". We may see a future lawsuit but perhaps because the god is generic (could be Vishnu, or my favorite, Marduk), that is not illegal. This thinking may also be the reason "the churches welcome you" may not be an issue although I seem to recall there was some legal action against this. A better version might be "Houses of Worship welcome you". More inclusive esp. if this is a government sign on public land.
Would you be okay with the sign reading, "Allah welcomes you"? Why do christians always feel entitled to violate the separation of church and state. Funny how you call people bigots because they don't follow your religion and want your religion to follow the separation of church and state. Christians are by and large the biggest group of bigots that exist, expecting everyone to follow the rules of your religion when I have yet to meet a true christian that actually follows the rules of their own damn religion.
You obviously don't know very many Christians. As a minister, I have to say that any deed done with positive, caring inor ovingltent is inherently a "Christian" act as that act follows the intent and teachings of the person known as Christ.
Thanks for the sanity in this conversation !
My reply was to Amie Z....
This had nothing to do with a church. Those who use words like bigots are generally the most intolerant of us all.
VHA directive 1111(1)
Spiritual and Pastoral care in the Veterans Health Administration (ie hospitals) 11-22-2016 Article 10 Chapels and other worship facilities. Item e-paragraph 4a “Facility Chaplains are responsible for: (a) Upholding the right to free exercise of religion by all medical, domiciliary, and community living center patients in the VA medical facility. This includes providing or facilitating appropriate worship opportunities.”
This directive was updated 7-3-2019 and the previous Stated article has not been superseded.
VA hospitals are owned by the US Federal Government. So much for separation of church and state.
J.A.Orbison, III
That is fine to post that various groups welcome folks--Some also include Rotary, Lions etc as well as local temples and covens
It would never happen, or, I have never heard it, yet, but, just a simple question: since you are calling people "bigots" (very immature!), and you speak of religious intolerance, what would your own personal take be, and those of your ilk, if you saw signs proclaiming, "All the local WITCHES, HEATHENS, COVENS, GROVES, PAGANS, and EARTH ORIENTED RELIGIONS Welcome you to "such and such" town !" ?
My dear Galin.....It will happen. The witches will have signs up at some point. The Pagans are multiplying like bunnies, or perhaps you're not aware of that.
I would love to see a fun sign saying " SATAN WELCOMES YOU TO HELL" in that town in Michigan. Has it been done already?
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Lion!!!! That would be such a great sign!!! Love it. Maybe you suggest it to the town of Hell.
I would move there.
we know you can go on and on, Kim. Because you do. You just drone on and on about your lust for a christian caliphate and how sometimes the bible needs to be taken seriously unless it's one of the many many verses that demean women and tell them to not speak publicly. We know you can and do go on and on about your perceived spiritual superiority and you'll just keep doing it no matter what. If we know anything at all in this world, it's that Kim will go on and on.
I wouldn't pay any attention to anything done or said by anyone who is as old as Will Rogers. He was on the radio in the 1920s. He's bound to be in at least his second or third childhood by now. Nobody heard a peep out of him for quite a few decades, and now this?!!!
Well when every knee bows they will wish they had kept the sign up because their name wont be posted in the book of life if they keep denying him. The sign wasnt hurting anyone. It was hurting the demons inside them though. Jesus was a man. Though perfect he still died. So think of him as a famous past celebrity lol
Rubbish, but thank you for your thoughts. Christian indoctrinated blackmail is the curse of mankind, and what's worse is that it's taught to our little children minds known as mental abuse. It's a brain virus that's hard to remove, but a good education goes a long way into curing it.
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Cowardly threats of damnation have no place here...or anywhere else. Shame on you.
Don...……...and heroic threats of damnation by socialism is?
"and heroic threats of damnation by socialism is?"
A cowardly deflection used by those with no rational response. Case in point. :)
This is a simple matter of separation of church and state. Although the sign is harmless, many Christians are at odds w specific beliefs in how to live their lives. When you start making gray areas in regards to the law, you open the door For it to happen again and again. Imagine a Christian w diff beliefs from yours mandating laws on how to live your life by law, based on their individual beliefs. We separate church and state for the precedent to be set to guard against tyrannical government officials. If you think about it instead of being childish, the laws that keep those signs down are the same ones that keep the people from ruling you with an agenda you are against at the peril of your very soul.
Jesus is hardly "past". He is yet to come.
Different Will Rogers. First one is dead.
I agree. It is the law of the land and how do they know that their imaginary friend welcomes folks
Is this lionheart from ohio?
No. I’m on the west coast.
?❤️
LOL....west coast...say no more
Don’t remind me. I’m in a Democratic hell of sanctuary cities in a sanctuary state. ?
Theme song for a county here in western PA, at least at one time. "Potter County, God's country USA".
Those durn Amish.
The city should also tear down the church that was also built on city property.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR ARTICLE, WHICH IS SPIRITUAL AND EDUCATIVELY. I PRAY TO GOOD GOD OF OUR UNIVERSE TO GRANT U YOU MORE SPIRITUAL VISIONS TO IMPART MINISTERS OF THE GOSPEL. . ...AMEN I HAVE BEEN SHARING SOME OF YOUR MATERIALS WITH SOME OF MY FRIENDS WHO ARE THE MINISTERS IN NIGERIA.