Could we soon see Disney's first lesbian princess? In the fairy tale world, princesses usually end up falling in love with a prince charming. Never before has a princess character identified as a member of the LGBT community but that could soon change. A movement which originated on Twitter is calling for Elsa, the female main character from Disney's 2013 animated film "Frozen", to be given a girlfriend in the upcoming sequel. Unsurprisingly, this has sparked a heated debate.
Whether or not Disney will respond to the request and write the character of Elsa as a lesbian has yet to be determined. However, considering the friendliness and support Disney has shown to the LGBT community in recent years, it's a definite possibility. At the same time, though, the company may decide that making such a change will cause more problems than it's worth. While Disney is famous for including hidden themes in its cartoons and children's movies, such a blatant message would likely provoke a reaction from conservative fans. If you can count on Americans for anything, it's their irrational fear of anything which may harm the fragile minds of children. No doubt there will be many upset parents if Elsa is given a female love interest in the next movie.
Menzel Backs Petition
Idina Menzel, the actress who plays Elsa, has said that she supports the petition and would love for Elsa to have a girlfriend in the upcoming movie. When asked about it last week, Menzel responded: "I think it's great. Disney's just gotta contend with that. I'll let them figure that out." Whether Menzel's opinion will have any influence on Disney's executives is yet to be seen. After all, they may already have a script written for "Frozen 2", and a female love interest may not fit with their vision for the film. It's possible, for example, that they plan to take a feminist approach with Elsa's character; the writers may have decided that she should be single in order to show that women do not require a man (or a partner) to achieve success. In any case, not everyone is as approving as Menzel.
Pushback
It may come as no surprise that there has been significant pushback to the idea of Elsa having a same-sex attraction. A petition denouncing the proposal and calling for Elsa to fall in love with a prince has already generated over 200,000 signatures on CitizenGo.org. The description on the online page calls the idea of a lesbian Elsa "frightening" and urges Disney not to give in to "the pressures of the liberal agenda" by spreading "divisive political propaganda". These opponents believe that making Elsa a lesbian will corrupt young children's minds and damage the moral fabric of society. Who knew so much was riding on a Disney movie?
Where's the Harm?
Supporters of the proposal claim that there is little harm in portraying Elsa as lesbian. In
fact, they argue it could be a great teaching moment. Children's movies typically include moral lessons within the story why not use "Frozen 2" to reinforce the idea that there is nothing wrong with being gay? There are lots of gay people in America. It's a fact of life. Part of childhood is learning what the world is all about, and how to act in society. By portraying a popular character as gay, supporters argue, Disney could help to decrease the stigma surrounding homosexuality. They view this as an opportunity for Disney to teach kids who might not know any better that being gay is not a disease you catch, nor is it an optional "lifestyle choice" it's a biological trait. We can't judge people based on their sexuality any more than we can judge them by their hair color, or how tall they are.
Should Disney Listen?
So far, there has been no response from Disney on the issue. At this point, no matter what they choose to do, plenty of people will be left unhappy. Either Disney will be characterized as unsupportive of LGBT issues, or they'll be accused of "liberal brainwashing". It's crazy to think how quickly an animated movie that hasn't even been made yet has turned into the battleground for a political showdown. We'd like to hear your thoughts. Should Disney give Elsa a girlfriend in the upcoming sequel? If they do, what impact would it have on kids?
312 comments
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Sam
It's been long overdue. It's time to empower girls to know that not all princess need a prince to be happy. Both girls and boys often know of their sexuality by 5. So go ahead Disney do the right thing and give her a girlfriend.
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Cassie
Going along with society isn't the right thing. A women doesn't always need a prince. But that doesn't mean she has to be gay either.
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Dreamsinger
And it doesn't mean that a woman who is independent is automatically gay. It just means that she doesn't want a guy who plays games.
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Carol Amina
True we dont all need a prince, and for sure being strong and independent is no indication weather a women is gay or not. However I find nothing at all wrong with telling kids the truth. From my prospective being gay, heterosexual, trans-gendered or what ever you wish (except for taking advantage of children, and animals who cant consent) what you do in your bedroom and who a person has sex with and or loves is there own business. Children are not stupid they can see with there own eyes when adults are kind and loving. We don't need to act like gay people don't exist.
My daughter and her partner have been together for 18 years. They are planning to get married now that its legal in just a few months. They raised two wonderful young (heterosexual) men together. Both well adjusted and proud of there parents. A two parent home is so much better than having to do it alone as I did.-
Dreamsinger
Mazel tov, and may Fortune favor your growing family's Paths in the days ahead.
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HeidiAnne Leon
that's wonderful!! I agree with you completely.You are a very wise and wonderful parent. In my opinion, if children saw that gays exist, there would be less bullying and hopefully less suicides. You did a wonderful job, and you didn't need a partner to do so, even though at times, I'm sure it would have been easier. In my opinion, you are a role model to parents every where. God bless. Hug hug
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Ben
I hate to break it to you SW, but Elsa getting a girlfriend isn't even close to the right thing.
"Both girls and boys often know of their sexuality by 5."
Only a minority of these children have knowledge of their sexuality, but at the same time we have hundreds if not thousands of children who don't even understand the concept of anything that's sex-themed and we definitely don't need to be putting that in their hands.
The truth is, children need to be taught how to think, not WHAT to think. So...the sooner you take what I just said into consideration, the better.
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hsw
Dude,
Please take a.course in human sexuality and learn the science of sexuality, rather than your preconceived and inaccurate prejudices.
Until then, having a dialogue with you is pointless.
Cheers.
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Ben
"Dude, please take a course in human sexuality and learn the science of sexuality, rather than your preconceived and inaccurate prejudices."
Oh, I see. You're just assuming that I don't know as much about sexuality as you do. Or perhaps there are some things you don't know about the subject and you're just trying to rub it off on me.
"Until then, having a dialogue with you is pointless."
It might seem pointless to you, but that's because you're not taking the time to be understanding towards it. I can tell by your assumption, 'preconceived and inaccurate prejudices'. It's also the 'prejudice' part that got to me, because I'm definitely not being prejudice about anything.
Here's a little tip to use in future: try asking instead of assuming.
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Dreamsinger
"Here’s a little tip to use in future: try asking instead of assuming."
Have you ever asked a lesbian if she was born that way, or have you simply assumed she chose to be that way?
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Dreamsinger
"Here's a little tip to use in [the] future: try asking instead of assuming."
Did you ever asked a lesbian, or have you always assumed she chose?
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Dreamsinger
Have you ever asked a gay person if it was a choice, Ben?
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Ben
Why would I need to do that when there's already living proof of that? I mean, didn't Neil Patrick Harris used to date a lot of Hollywood women before he came out in 2006? Didn't Ellen used to have a boyfriend in her college years that she so desperately wanted to marry? And don't we have ex-homosexuals in our society nowadays? People who somehow left their gay lifestyle behind and now have developed heterosexual feelings?
It doesn't really seem to me sexuality isn't a choice if these people somehow had different sexualities, now does it?
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Dreamsinger
Because Neil Patrick Harris and Ellen DeGeneres are Hollywood actors, their job is to be whatever they're paid to be -- which is called "living a lie." They're paid to be fantasies, Ben... and like Elsa from "Frozen", fantasies aren't real.
Truth is not based on lies or fantasies. If you want the truth, ask a lesbian who isn't a paid celebrity or spokesperson. Of course, you could opt to stay with the fantasy. It's perfectly understandable, because the only thing more painful than being lied to is admitting you were lied to.
That we're even having this conversation means the founding ideals of the ULC are valid, seeing as how we just ordained a classically-trained transgender singer (Lady Gaga) and a classically trained gay actor (Ian McKellen). The world is tired of the hate, Ben. It's got 99 problems, and who sleeps with whom isn't one of them.
Let it go.
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Dreamsinger
Gaston from "Beauty and the Beast" was in a romantic relationship with his henchman LeFou. Any guy who throws that much machismo is definitely living a lie. Sorta like Neil Patrick Harris and Ellen DeGeneres used to do, in order to keep getting movie roles in a very homophobic Hollywood.
https://www.themarysue.com/lefou-disney-first-gay-character/
But to answer your question... why wouldn't you want to hear the truth from someone who isn't paid to lie?
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Dreamsinger
Because I'd rather ask the person who isn't professionally paid to lie. That's just me, though, but the choice is yours.
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Ben
"Because Neil Patrick Harris and Ellen DeGeneres are Hollywood actors, their job is to be whatever they’re paid to be — which is called “living a lie."
Now let's be honest here, Dreamsinger...do you know how stupid you'd have to be to knowingly live a lie? Are you trying to say that these people are idiots? Because that's very insulting of you. Dreamsinger, let's just imagine you were in this same position. Someone offers to pay you cash just to tell a measly lie. Would you be dumb enough to go along? Just got something as common as money? I don't think so.
"They're paid to be fantasies."
But there's a flaw there. After you said this, you said "fantasies aren't real." And you know perfectly well that these people are real and therefore not fantasies.
"If you want the truth, ask a lesbian who isn't a paid celebrity or spokesperson."
You don't need to ask someone for the truth by knowing it. Most of the times, you just need to be good at listening carefully to their words and piecing together what's true and what isn't. Clearly something you're seriously lacking.
"Because the only thing more painful than being lied to is admitting you were lied to."
Yeah, try telling that all those people out there who listened to the "lies" of those they interviewed and accepted it.
If this is all you see, Dreamsinger. Then you seriously have poor perception. You're clearly just denying the truth, all because it sounds ugly to you. Sooner or later, you're gonna have to learn that the truth isn't always pretty and let it go.
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Ben
And also...
"Gaston from “Beauty and the Beast” was in a romantic relationship with his henchman LeFou."
Ummm...no he didn't. LeFou had a crush on Gaston and Gaston wanted to marry Belle. There's an obvious difference here.
Not trying to mock you or anything Dreamsinger, but who's living a lie now? ;)
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Dreamsinger
I'd say it's Gaston. He's being a bit obvious, with all the machismo the guy's throwing around.
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Ben
"I’d say it’s Gaston."
You SAY it's Gaston. So in a sense, that's just your opinion. And your opinion is really nobody's reality, Dreamsinger. You need to get over it.
And by the way, just because someone's throwing their machismo around, doesn't mean they're living a lie.
Cheers.
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Diane Baum
I don't know, maybe I'm ignorant, but doesn't it say in the Book of Genesis that God created them, MALE AND FEMALE? How in the beginning, God created man, then gave him a helpmate...so He created a woman, made from Adam's rib. So are we now trying to say that it was all a mistake, that what God really intended was to make male-male or female-female? I think not. I understand that homosexuality plays out not only in the human life but in animal;s also but this is an anomaly, an exception, not the rule. I am in no way homophobic, I just think that by thrusting this ideology in the media, it sets a moral precedent.
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HeidiAnne Leon
I'm not saying the Lord made a mistake, but the Lord created everyone, and He knew us while we were in our mother's womb. Until science changes things, in order for a new life to be created an egg from a woman, and sperm from a man creates a child. However, a family doesn't have to be a male and female household. It could be the mother and father, step parents, adoptive, same gender of either gender, or a single parent. The important thing about the raising of the child isn't who is raising the child, but how. The important thing is that the child is being raised and treated with love.
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CRAIG
Great post! That's it in a nutshell!
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HeidiAnne Leon
Who are you replying to Greg?
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HeidiAnne Leon
I mean Craig, and thank you! In my opinion, I would rather have my kids see a couple of the same gender that are loving over violence. I notice, that people on here and in society would accept bloodshed and violence over love.
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Carol Amina
I can see the love in your post HeidiAnne, you sound like the kind of person I would enjoy having as a neighbor.
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HeidiAnne Leon
Thank you so much Carol! Your comment realy touched my heart.Blessings and hugs.
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Carol Amina
Oh GOOD! I really wanted you to feel it <3
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HeidiAnne Leon
Thank you so much, Carol. I really felt it. You daughter and grandsons, and soon to be daughter in law are very blessed to have you in their lives. Hug hug
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Winston
There are lots of things written down and many accounts of early man. You've made zero argument whatsoever why your view ought to be taken as fact over the thousands of other views out there. Yes, it is written in Genesis but so what?
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Deborah Freeman
So What? Well its not about mans view. That was Gods view. That is so what..mm
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Susan
I'm with Diane. I have many friends that are gay. I don't know anyone who is transgender, but that could be because they aren't making a big deal out of it. Just like I'm not making a big deal out of being a woman, underpaid and not able to have children. It is was God gave me to live with and I do just fine in my life, well all except the underpaid thing, I do believe a Man had something to do with that. But, it is my belief and/or opinion and to degrade my opinion over yours is so wrong. Because I don't believe that olives taste good, doesn't entitle anyone to tell me that I'm wrong, mis-informed or don't know what I'm talking about. To express your opinion without tearing down another is fine, but to call people names, and defile their beliefs is not. I don't get on a soap box often, but I am tired of being told that my beliefs are wrong, back woods and out dated. These are MY beliefs and I can keep them just the way they are. For a child to make a gender change I think is wrong. Very wrong. My opinion, so go ahead and stab at me if you like. That's what they did to Jesus and I believe in him.
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Dreamsinger
I agree with Susan. My neighbors are a married lesbian couple, and they're pretty cool to hang out with. While I do have a fiancee, I don't have any kids of my own -- that was my choice.
Remember that word. "Choice". It's what powers and operates God's gift of Free Will. And by using your Free Will to forcibly violate someone else's Free Will, by telling them they cannot choose their own Path, is worse than blasphemy. By putting someone on a leash, you put yourself on your own leash.
I dunno about you, but I don't care for being anyone's pet.
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Susan
Amen!
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Carol Amina
Yup!
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Carol Amina
Thank you Susan for your comments. I have many Christian friends and they are loving and accepting people who don't treat me rudely or badly because I am not. Its so nice to see respectful people such as yourself in this form. Peace
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Brian
The Bible is a crock of s***, so in what way is it any kind of authority.
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Dreamsinger
It's not intended to be any kind of authority, Brian. It's a philosophical text, intended to be an allegorical guide on how to be a decent human being.
The Bible is no different from the Qu'ran, the Torah, the Tripitaka, or tribal legends.
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Niblue
Well said (although it's hard for me to address you seriously as "tuna lick") and done with an eloquence that Brian so sorely lacks!
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Dreamsinger
Thanks, Niblue. I'll see if I can get WordPress to change the handle for me, since you were polite in mentioning that issue.
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Dreamsinger
Took care of that. Thanks, Niblue.
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Carol Amina
I agree with tunalick2014, having studied and read them all. I take what touched my heart and soul and respect anyone who is following one or all. However I have free choice and I chose to keep it.
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Carol Amina
I agree with tunalick...lol...and that name cracks me up..thanks I needed the laugh. :-)
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Dreamsinger
Depends on which version of the Bible you're referring to. The New King James Version came out in 1989, via HarperCollins, and it was heavily edited and modified from the actual King James version (began 1603, approved by the Church in 1607). And the King James version was a reboot, by King James himself, of the original version that was approved by the Nicean Council in 325. And the Nicean Council had to figure out how to consolidate an estimated 80,000 different versions of the same basic stories that were written several decades after Jesus was crucified.
So again, which version did you mean?
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Ice Bear
Screw religion
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Dreamsinger
I agree, Alanis Morissette was gorgeous in Kevin Smith's film, "Dogma".
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Carol Amina
Your statement assumes that we all follow Christian teachings or the bible. So as far as I can see you need to follow what you believe and let others do the same.
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Dreamsinger
If you're willing to question what you believe, then you are not ignorant. As far as I know, God doesn't make mistakes... if He made us all in His image, and some were made GLBT, then He must've had a pretty good reason for it.
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Rev. Gary Shade
Parents should be the ones responsible for talking about sex issues with their children. Not Disney.
And as for you blog comment "– it’s a biological trait." - No it's not. Biologically we either have an XX or XY chromosome. There is no "gay" chromosome. Your statement is factually incorrect.
So if there is not a biological basis for being gay then it really is something else. Perhaps psychological?
There was a time that Disney stood strong in it's commitment towards TRADITIONAL family values. A lesbian Elsa would most certainly erase that commitment.
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HeidiAnne Leon
Are you aware that there are over 1,200 animals that display homosexual behavior? Therefore, it isn't psychological with the other animals , why then would it be different with humans?
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HeidiAnne Leon
There are over 1.200 species in the animal kingdom that display homosexual behavior. That doesn't even include humans. The reason isn't psychological. So how do you explain that? We too are in the animal kingdom. Chromosomes determine an animal or a person's gender, not one's orientation.
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Daniel Ellis
What I don't get is the obsession with those two chromosomes when those only decide gender. that's 22 more chromosomes and billions and billions of base pairs that determine everything about who we are and how we look. X and Y are not the factors of sexuality and any combination of what I've stated will cause differences of sexuality.
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HeidiAnne Leon
I don't understand your question. Please explain, Daniel. Thanks.
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Dreamsinger
Because it's easier for most people to focus and believe the quick-and-easy, the obvious, and (as Goebbels once put it) the lie repeated often enough. It's easier to simply "follow orders" than to think critically.
This is the basis of how America's public education system got demolished, after the rise of Reagan's "Christian conservatism". The term itself is an oxymoron -- you cannot support legislative actions that defy Christ's teachings, even if you must "render unto Caesar".
People have been broken mentally and spiritually, while physically is almost complete. You cannot think clearly or critically when you're light-years deep in religious-indoctrinated Stockholm Syndrome... and that's where we've been since the early 1980's.
There's a mantra among CINOs... "a freethinking mind is the Devil's plaything."
One does not speak of Jesus in such an insulting manner, if they cannot think at all.
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Rev. Gary Shade
Your argument that if animals do it then it must be ok for humans to do it is junk science and based on a very weak linkage to say the least. Animals also perform acts of cannibalism, but to say that because animals do it it must be ok for humans to do it is bunk.
A 1996 article published by the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality, an organization committed to the treatment of homosexuality, musters the arguments against interpretation of animal behavior as sanctioning homosexuality.[4] It notes that "homosexual scientist Simon LeVay" stated that the evidence pointed to isolated acts, not to homosexuality: “ Although homosexual behavior is very common in the animal world, it seems to be very uncommon that individual animals have a long-lasting predisposition to engage in such behavior to the exclusion of heterosexual activities. Thus, a homosexual orientation, if one can speak of such thing in animals, seems to be a rarity.
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hsw
Speaking of junk science... http://www.twocare.org/discredited-ex-gay-therapy-group-narth-undergoes-major-rebranding-effort/
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Carol Amina
lol hsw :-)
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Dreamsinger
Gary, humans (Homo sapiens, or "H. sapiens") are a member species of the Animal Kingdom.
Ergo, we are capable of the innate behaviors which a dog, a bird, even a fish or rhinoceros, exhibits. The only difference between our species and the rest of the Kingdom is that we're the only ones that have completely evolved into bipedalism. As a result, our brains have evolved into higher-level cognitive capabilities such as "ethics", "good versus bad", and developing nuclear weapons with the intent to use.
It comes at a drastic price, however. Our vision is only capable of seeing less than 1% of the EM wavelength spectrum, our hearing is diminished due to our ears being fixed-location, our sense of smell is practically useless. And our ability to be trained by external stimuli has been increased at a frightening level.
The most evolutionarily-advanced species created by intelligent design?
Must've been a DeVry graduate who didn't eat their Wheaties the day they designed us.
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Dreamsinger
Human researchers discovered last year that when heterosexual members of a species banish their young for being runts, or when they become orphans, the homosexual members of that species are the ones that take them in and care for them until reaching adulthood.
And there's a lot of kids in human foster care and adoption services waiting to be taken in by a new heterosexual family, because the ones they were originally born into were too busy popping Viagra, and undergoing IVF, while making it illegal for homosexual families to help out.
There are repercussions for taking away people's basic human rights. You just don't see them until someone who's survived them pops up on a ULC forum and explains these things. But it's not your problem, once the fetus is born, right?
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HeidiAnne Leon
I am confused when you are referring to the repercussions of taking away people's basic rights. Which rights are you referring to? Furthermore, what are you talking about, once the fetus is born it's not my problem? Are you addressing these comments to me. I agree with everything you have written and I'm not only an ally for the LGBTQ community, but I myself am bisexual. Please reply ok. Thanks.
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Dreamsinger
Good morning, Heidi. I was directing the response to Gary. My apologies, from now on I'll make sure to refer to the person I reply to. Thanks for letting me know about the problem. :)
Stay awesome and always be you. :)
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me
OK first of all chromosones have NOTHING to do with your sexual orientation or your romantic orientation and SEOND of all same sex couples are not automticly sexual that like think of what your saying thats like saying oposite sex coules are automaticy sexual i dont know about you but im pretty sure nobodys parnts where haveing the talk with them after watching cinderella and i think some raditians are ment to be broken like its not "traditional" for woman to wear pants and p.s if you werent paying attention there alredy was a same sex couple in the first frozen movie i this us queer girls shoulf have some representaion someone for young queer girls to look up to some one to make queer girls not so esrtanged and maybe even a little bit normalized i think giving elsa a irlfriend would be a huge step for disney a step in the right direcion.
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Rev. Gary Shade
"OK first of all chromosones have NOTHING to do with your sexual orientation"
Pretty much what I said.
"SEOND of all same sex couples are not automticly sexual that like think of what your saying thats like saying oposite sex coules are automaticy sexual"
Huh? That makes no sense.
"i this us queer girls shoulf have some representaion someone for young queer girls to look up to some one to make queer girls not so esrtanged and maybe even a little bit normalized i think giving elsa a irlfriend would be a huge step for disney a step in the right direcion."
Maybe you're typing from a cell phone but it is very difficult to pull from the page what you are really saying or mean. I believe you're saying young queer girls need someone to look up to. Whereas you would cast that role model you state they need as a queer girl herself, I would not.
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Winston
I trust then if no romance between 2 women because parents should be the resource for learning about sexual issues, then for the pure sake of logical consistency, you really meant to say there should be no romantic relationships of any kind in Disney movies.
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Dreamsinger
Ariel was 13 when she met Prince Eric (who was an adult.) Jasmine was 15 when she ran into Aladdin (also an adult.) Belle was 17 when Prince Adam (the Beast, who was about to turn 21) threatened to kill her father in order to win her love.
What "romantic relationships"?
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Niblue
But aren't we recently seeing that Walt Disney included subliminal and questionable images in his cartoons? I'm not so sure Disney ever really stood for tradition family values?
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Dreamsinger
They've done that for decades. Snow White lived with seven guys. You can't tell me it was innocent.
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REV. DR. ENRIQUE PEREZ BLANCO
Niblue, That's the main point: the subliminal seduction. Disney, since the very begging has used dirty and illegal subliminal tactics on their movie and propaganda promotion. Most of them of sexual connotation. It is a visual technique that the cognitive mind did not recognize. Only the emotional mind.
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Paster Quinn
Ummm, Disney and TRADITIONAL Family Values?
Bambi's single Mother is shot, Pinocchio is carved and cared for by his "father" Geppetto, lured off by her-do-wells. Peter Pan is motherless. The mothers of Belle (Beauty and the Beast), Jasmine (Aladdin) and Pocahontas are all either absent or deceased. If maternal figures aren't absent from the start of the story, many are killed, captured, or replaced by a "wicked stepmother" along the way. Star Wars follows the pattern: a dead mom and absentee dad, with the Skywalker children being raised by relatives. LILO and Stitch, parents killed in an accident. The list goes on, it is not healthy to be a "Traditional" parent in a Disney film.-
Dreamsinger
And let's not forget the innuendo of "lemon parties" in the Pixar flick 'Cars', or the scene in "Toy Story" that was so horrifically violent that Disney said it had to be cut out of the final edit.
Or that the artists do some... very interesting illustrations involving the female characters and not much else. When Walt Disney said his films weren't intended for children audiences, he might be referring to the fact that a lot of the stories (with some recent exceptions) come from the Brothers Grimm Fairytales.
Trust me, those guys make Walt sound like Mr. Rogers.
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James Pace
Absolutely...let Elsa be gay... it's about time children learn that being gay isn't a bad thing it's just a thing.
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Ben
But if they're to learn being gay is okay, that's basically encouraging them to be gay. And we can't encourage kids to change who they are. That's completely immoral! Ain't no Elsa going gay, I'm afraid.
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Dreamsinger
Please tell me you're being satirical, Ben. Your skills with Poe's Law are the best I've seen in years.
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Sam
Gary, it seems that you have it wrong, ones sexuality is related to brain waves, blood chemistry and hormone balance. It may be difficult for you to except this, but there is nothing wrong/ strange about being gay. What is wrong is the # of children/teens who fall into depression and comit suicide or runaway because they are not loved and supported by their family and community for being LGBT or Q God loves and excepts all, we can too.
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Sue Nicholai
i think family is just too busy being busy rather than being in relation with each other.their is a small percentage that is attacted to thd same sex but the problem is in the US is that kids are being taugjt and encouraged to xo whatever they want. You ser it in the road rage,murder rape,porn,not taking care of the kids,bullies ect
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Sam
I agree that many families are too busy to be with their children. But time spent with them that is of quality and caring, loving, listening and excepting will make up for it. Yes there is a small percent 1/10 who are born in the LGBT spectrum.
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Dreamsinger
Besides, who would willingly "choose" to be ostracized, dehumanized, and even murdered by society? I know I'm a bit crazy and all, but that's insane!
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Rev. Gary Shade
SW - there is NO biological evidence of any of the junk science you've put forth here. None. Blood chemistry is the same as heterosexuals, hormone balance? Not unless you're receiving injections. Brain waves? The research you attempt to reference showed that brains of gay men were cognitively more feminized than their heterosexual counterparts. What the scientists did not discover is a causal relationship for this discovery (i.e. they just do not know why - environment perhaps?)
Studies of identical twins where one sibling is gay and the other is heterosexual seems to disprove that being gay has anything to do with biology.
You said "What is wrong is the # of children/teens who fall into depression and comit suicide or runaway because they are not loved and supported by their family and community for being LGBT or Q"
Bullying of any type is wrong and bullying is often cited as the main cause of LGBT depression and suicide.
"God loves and excepts all, we can too." Actually the Bible calls for judging acts. "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." (John 7:24)
And there are many more passages where Jesus tells Christians to make moral judgements.
Jesus asked people why they would not judge what was the right thing to do, "And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?" (Luke 12:57)
He instructed believers to admonish those brothers who practice sin. "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. (Matthew 18:15) "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. (Luke 17:3) 'I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false; (Revelation 2:2) 'But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. (Revelation 2:20)
So you see it is not a matter of not loving or accepting the sinner, it is a matter of not loving the sin.
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Sam
The bible as well as the Koran can be interpreted by those who are homophobic or by those as in the Koran by terrorists. They believe and interpet words to fit their own belief and judgement. Being gay is not a sin. Soon your church will except that. What will you do then I wonder.
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Rev. Gary Shade
SW - "Being gay is not a sin."
The Bible doesn't speak of homosexuality very often. But when it does, it condemns it as sin. Let's take a look.
Leviticus 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."1 Leviticus 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them." 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God." Romans 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."Homosexuality is clearly condemned in the Bible. It undermines God's created order when He made Adam and Eve, a man and a woman, to carry out His command to fill and subdue the earth (Genesis 1:28).
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Dreamsinger
Sorry, Sparkles, but the term "homosexuality" didn't exist until the late 1800's, by German psychologist Karoly Maria Benkert. (Source: Stanford University -- http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/homosexuality/). Which means that neither the Israelites, Judeans, Jesus, Constantine, the Nicean Council, the Roman Catholic Empire, the Spanish Inquisition, King James, or even King George III ever uttered or knew of the word.
There was an ancient Greek term for it, "ἀρσενοκοίτης", which meant "a man who lies in bed with another." Greek was a commonly-read language in the Bronze Age, when people didn't know where the rains came from or the existence of proper hygiene. The English term "homosexual" was first used in the King James Bible in 1946.
I'm so glad you brought up Leviticus, because eating shellfish is listed as an abomination 9 chapters before girl-on-girl porn. So why don't I see you guys protesting and firebombing the local Lobsterfest? (Source: https://youtu.be/S1-ip47WYWc)
One last thought. Church clergy that rape male children in their congregation also qualifies in your Leviticus reference. Might want to clean up your own house before tearing down anyone else's.
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Maia Daniels
This was posted on the "Humans of New York" Facebook page earlier this year, and I do believe that it serves as a suitable rebuttal to your argument.
“I started studying Christianity more ever since my husband joined the seminary. I’m not offended by it. When you step back from the literal interpretation, you realize that so much of the Bible is aimed at survival. Look at all the crazy dietary restrictions. Homosexuality was forbidden because it didn’t lead to reproduction. For the same reason, if you had sex during your wife’s period, you had to sacrifice a hamster in the temple. The people who wrote the Bible were speaking with the only language that they knew at the time—survival. When I step back from that, I see a book that attempts to use symbols and stories to understand the source of life. And that source is depicted as completely loving. And I think that’s beautiful.”
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Susan
I think this is the true lens through which we must view the Bible. The rules and regulations were indeed meant to guarantee survival. Many of them are no longer relevant.
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Dreamsinger
I love it when I see homophobic Christians quote Scripture based on a Bible version that was written in 1607 by an very openly homosexual monarch, in order to condemn homosexuals.
Oh, the irony. Yep, King James I was flaming gay.
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hsw
Thank you Maia Daniels for not only being a voice of reason, but also providing a moment of levity. "...you had to sacrifice a hamster in the temple." left me doubled over with much-needed giggles.
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HeidiAnne Leon
In Leviticus, it says not to eat pork or shellfish, cut your hair, work on the Sabbath, wear clothes of different fabrics, have tats, among other things. Do you do any of these things? These are an abomination as well?
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Dreamsinger
drops mic Well said, Heidi.
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HeidiAnne Leon
Thanks, Dreamsinger, but it's HeidiAnne, not Heidi ok. I find it interesting that there was a show called Step by Step which was aired in the 1980's. It was a family show on ABC with Suzanne Sommers, and Patrick Duffy. The premise was about a divorced Dad with 3 children marrying a widowed woman with 3 children. Jesus, in the Gospels specifically spoke against divorce and remarrying, but no one said a word. In my opinion, I think worrying about our children and who they love , shouldn't be the focus, but all the bloodshed, violence, and looking for ways to promote peace
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Carol Amina
Yeah! HeidiAnne is my hero! The christians who are so busy throwing stones are hiding behind there hatefulness and bible thumping.
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HeidiAnne Leon
Thank you sooo much Carol. That touched my heart! I got married on Monday and I'm so happy.
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Rev. John D. Partin
Gary Shade, the Bible was written by human beings, no matter how "divinely inspired" they were, and human beings don't even get everything right or understand correctly about what other human beings are saying all or most of the time, as is evident in this blog and the world. So, how much less would they always or usually (or ever!) get right what God is saying?! Those few verses that you mention in the Bible condemning homosexuality were, quite obviously, the views of the Bible writers themselves, who merely put their words into "God's mouth", in order to "sanctify" and "justify" their views and impose them on other people easier.
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HeidiAnne Leon
I just re read Matthew 18:15 and in some translations it states about the sinner sinning against a particular person. In other versions it speaks of the person sinning. These are the same Bible verse, but mean 2 different things. I do know that Jesus did say " He who is free of sin, can cast the first stone," and " Judge not, lest ye be judged."
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Rev. Gary Shade
"What did Jesus mean when he said, "Judge not, and you will not be judged." It's one of the most commonly quoted verses from the bible (Luke 6:37). Many of us, and not merely politicians, invoke the verse as a first defense when accused of wrong. It is also a favorite stone thrown by those outside the church to accuse Christians of hypocrisy.
....Jesus forbids and he makes that clear when the whole sentence in Luke 6 is read: "Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned." Jesus is saying the same thing in two ways-a common rabbinical device at the time.
He's calling us to not condemn people, to not pass final judgment and declare them irretrievably guilty. This is an incredibly important idea if you understand the context in which Jesus was speaking. The entire culture of his day was predicated on the notion that some people were acceptable and others were not. And the way you defined yourself, your identity and place in the world, was by comparing and contrasting yourself with others.
This is the judgment that Jesus says is absolutely wrong. When we judge/condemn someone we are declaring that they have no value; no worth-that they do not matter to us or God. And we do this as a means of elevating ourselves. The more people pushed below us, the higher in value we must be. " Excerpts from a paper: What Did Jesus Mean by 'Judge Not' - by Skye Jethani
As I said - judge not the sinner, judge the sin. Love the sinner as you would your brother or sister, but condemn the sin.
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Dreamsinger
And isn't that what a bunch of well-intentioned but sadly-misguided Christians are doing by calling gay people sinners, something called "hypocrisy"?
-- an "outsider" who doesn't cast stones, but rains boulders on folks who don't move fast enough.
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Carol Amina
I wish we had a way to give a thumbs up! ??... But yeah! I agree?
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Dreamsinger
You quote Scripture rather well. The Devil (ha'saitan, Satan, Big Red, etc.) also quotes Scripture quite well.
Why do you smell like sulfur, Gary?
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Rev. Gary Shade
Dreamsinger -
"You quote Scripture rather well. The Devil (ha’saitan, Satan, Big Red, etc.) also quotes Scripture quite well.
Why do you smell like sulfur, Gary?"
Try to keep up with the adults Dreamsinger. Your comment is quite sophomoric. And your side of the argument is tolerant? Give me a break. Anyone who disagrees with your opinion you attempt to silence using Alinsky's Rules for Radicals. Yet your post comes off as something far less than the level of discussion engaged in by your peers. Good luck with that. And no - I don't play well with idiot savants.
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Dreamsinger
You're absolutely right, Gary. I'm being completely disrespectful and intolerant by using snark and humor in a devoted effort to politely disagree with you. Thank you ever so much for crucifying me because I nailed you on what I was saying.
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UnicornSquirrel
I love all of your replies.
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Dreamsinger
You're not too shabby yourself. Keep up the good work.
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Carol Amina
Hehe...Dreamsinger ...that was a good one ☺️??
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HeidiAnne Leon
I agree Carol, Dreamsinger was spot on.
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Bob
" Bullying of any type is wrong and bullying is often cited as the main cause of LGBT depression and suicide.
“God loves and excepts all, we can too.” Actually the Bible calls for judging acts. “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with "
It's not just the bullying . It's that they are being taught (by people like you)that because of something they can't change that they are evil and sick
How about seeing the splinter in someone's eye but not the plank in your own:)
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Carol Amina
Amen!
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Carol Amina
The bible is fir christians, I myself think it's largely fiction and misinterpitation. To many lives have been lost or ruined because of the BS that people read into what was written by a bunch of power hungry men!
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Kathleen Baird
Fully support the choice made by my Trans grandchild to acknowledge s/he was actually male, which we all knew since, even as a 2 year old, if you put her in a dress she would scream and cry and try to to pull it off herself. My now Trans grandson is a person who has chosen a difficult path. That being said, I wonder when we will ever get to the point where it is just accepted by the mainstream and it is not necessary to make a big deal out of it. Kaitlyn Jenner brought it into the open: tolerant people with kind hearts showed acceptance, and we shouldn't need to have, or not have, an LGBT Disney Princess to convince kids it is okay to be different. How can we support those of the LGBT community without making every movie, every TV series, every book include at least one LGBT character? I look forward to the day when it is so accepted, so ordinary, that there is no need to make a loud statement about one's life choices.
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Tom
Beautifully said, Kathleen.
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Kathleen Baird
Thanks, Tom Jaynes. I married a Canadian and emigrated to Toronto, Canada (from the suburbs of Detroit) in 1974. One of the many things I appreciate about living here is the general attitude, as exemplified by Pierre Trudeau (late father of our current Prime Minister) that " The Government does NOT belong in the bedrooms of the people". As a Wiccan, hetero, liberal woman, fully certified by the Province of Ontario to perform weddings, baptisms & funerals, I have solemnized all types of weddings, including Wiccan, Christian, Buddhist, Hindi, Farsi, Spiritual, Civil and Same Sex. The first Same Sex wedding I was asked to perform, I was asked if I had a problem with this. My reply? "I have more of a problem with who people hate, than who they love."
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HeidiAnne Leon
What a beautiful comment Kathleen!
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Sam
Well said, I too look forward to that day. Untill then we need to stand up to those who have fear and hatred in their hearts and minds and help educate them towards love and exceptence.
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me
i love how acepting you are but if he says he is a he you should refer to him as such
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Kathleen Baird
Hello, "me". Agree with you. When I said s/he, I was referring to a very young little girl who had not yet become Trans. I try to always remember to use "He" now, especially at my Grandson's home because my daughter has a "gender jar" and if you use the wrong pronoun, you make a donation. The money goes to my Grandson for things like breast binders, or other Trans items.
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Dreamsinger
Kathleen... my fiancee got me hooked on "RuPaul's Drag Race" and "Drag Queen Superstar" a few weeks ago. The contestants are very entertaining, and aren't afraid to be themselves. Even Ru's tagline, "If you can't love yourself, how the heck are you gonna love someone else?" is inspirational.
Gene Roddenberry had a gay helmsman on the original "Star Trek" series, Sulu (played by George Takei). Between that, a Russian at weapons, a black woman kissing a white man during the episode "Plato's Stepchildren", and the other boundary-shattering characters in subsequent movies and tv series (Tasha Yar and Data, Worf and Jadzia Dax, Gul Dukat and a Bajoran)... I think we can still look back at his ideas and continue learning from them.
What say you?
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Carol Amina
Very well said Ms Kathleen! Thank you
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hsw
I think it would be great if Disney did this - and showed kids that being gay is just another way to be. Parents who don't want their kids to see it don't have to take them.
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Ben
Sorry to burst your bubble hsw, but it's far from being great. Kids don't need to know that being gay is okay, since it will brainwash them into being gay (especially if they're supposed to learn it's okay for themselves.)
Also, parents don't have to keep their kids from seeing that, because they don't want them too. They keep them from seeing it, because they're not mature enough to understand about it.
Here's something to think about, dude.
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Randy McDonald
Why should we let the "minority" of the population dictate the morality of the majority of the population? Society should be reflected by the mores of the majority, not the "vocal" minority?!!
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hsw
No it actually shouldn't. If it did, the minorities would forever be repressed by the majority, just because they could. The founders knew what they were doing when they created our system of laws and government.
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Susan Colmenares
If the majority must always rule men would not hold positions of authority because women outnumber them.
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Dreamsinger
And women tend to outlive men as well. Good point, Susan.
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Susan
Agreed!
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Rhonda
why in the world would anyone want sexual preference be shown in a children's movie? its supposed to be fun and free and its adults with agendas that perpetuate their views on everything!!!! Good grief people...enough already. let adults deal with adult issues and let children maintain some innocence until forced into adult sexuality issues!!! This isn't homophobic its protecting children and if Disney does this...it will be the downfall of innocence for the kids. If someone is gay...fine...be gay...but leave the children out of the bedrooms of ALL adults...including heterosexual. Disney has done movies showing strong women...what the heck more do you want??? Enough already with the gay or any sexual things in childrens' world!!! And don't say I'm homophobic...I don't like the girls all look like Barbie dolls...let them keep some innocence and play and use imagination. Just stop it adults...of all sexual persuasions...perpetuating your agenda of sexuality on kids.
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hsw
So when a man displays attraction to a woman or vice versa in a movie, that's not showing "sexual preference"?
That kind of thinking, for many years, got us movies where the only non-white faces shown were serving dinner.
The world is a wonderfully diverse place. There's nothing wrong with expressing that in entertainment media.
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Ben
"So when a man displays attraction to a woman or vice versa in a movie, that’s not showing “sexual preference”?"
Exactly, because nowadays kids movies aren't focused on the sexuality of a man and woman. However, if two guys or two girls show the same attraction towards each other, then that's what they'll be focused on. Because unfortunately, gays are recognised for their sexuality.
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hsw
Ben if that's what you see, that's a flaw of yours, not something you should project on the rest of the world. Most of us don't look at a gay couple and jump to thoughts of what they do in the privacy of their bedroom, any more than we would a heterosexual couple.
You should get your mind out of the gutter.
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Ben
"Ben if that’s what you see, that’s a flaw of yours, not something you should project on the rest of the world."
Is this a flaw to you? Because wow, clearly you completely misunderstood everything I said and just assumed it to be what you saw it as. Sorry, but it seems perhaps you're the one who needs to get his mind out of the gutter.
"Most of us don't look at a gay couple and jump to thoughts of what they do in the privacy of their bedroom, any more than we would a heterosexual couple."
I'm not talking what a person does in private, I'm talking about who they're identified as.
Next time, be more considerate please, dude.
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hsw
Dear Ben,
I don't believe I misunderstood your statement about gays being "...recognised (sic) for their sexuality."
I could probably say more, but I'm laughing too hard at your assumption that I'm a man, given your snarky "Because wow, clearly you completely misunderstood everything I said and just assumed it to be what you saw it as."
Not sure what you "saw" that made you think I'm a man, but it's hilarious.
Cheers.
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Ben
- "Dear Ben, I don’t believe I misunderstood your statement about gays being “…recognised (sic) for their sexuality.”
Are you sure about that, hsw? 'Cause all I heard you talk about was 'jumping to thoughts on what a gay couple does in the privacy of their bedroom', which isn't even close to 'jumping to thoughts about the type of couple a gay couple is.'
"I could probably say more, but I’m laughing too hard at your assumption that I’m a man..."
It's because I said 'dude', isn't it? Well, I hate to burst your bubble again, but just because people say 'dude' at the end of a sentence, doesn't mean they're intentionally calling you a man. People tend to say minor phrases that mean absolutely nothing like...all the time. I mean, people call an African-American a black person, but don't intend to imply his skin colour makes him who he is. People call a Jewish guy a Jew, but at the same time know well and truly his religion is...just religion. Others call others a loser...freak...asshole...but in the end, they're just names. So I'm afraid your sentence 'assumption that I'm a man' isn't even correct.
Not trying to mock you or anything, but you obviously DID misunderstand everything I said, so yeah. Maybe try and be a bit more understanding next time, okay?
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Charles
Well said Rhonda, I couldn't agree more with you. Adults are making this issue way more complex than need be. Lets not be more contributory to most children's curiosity and experimitation.
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jeffereysmithJeff
I agree Rhonda, as a society we wrongly continue to expose children to subject matter they do not yet have the ability to process. Children are all too often exposed to sexual content and violence as part of "modern" society. It is our responsibility as parents to protect our children's innocence and raise them with love, support, and educate them while actively trying to inject as little of the "hang-ups" that we have. Encourage them to be caring, open and understanding, while being strong, and explain life along a timeline they can safely process, while protecting their childhood.
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Dreamsinger
I agree with both of you. Children only get to be children once in their lives. And adulthood is never what we're told it is when we're their age. Let them dream, let them explore, let them savor the possibilities within their hopes and plans to be whatever they want to be.
Unless they want to be Batman. In which case, always let them be Batman. ;)
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Paster Quinn
It would surprise you to find out what children can process. I disagree that our "responsibility as parents" is to protect their "innocence" if it means hiding the truth and the norm from them. Exposure to all sorts of things as youngsters demystifys people that are different from their immediate family. This (in my opinion) goes a long way to reducing hatred and bigotry as adults. By "shielding" them, you create fear, fear leads to suspicion, suspicion to distrust, distrust to hatred.
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hsw
Absolutely. I remember hearing the word "queer" when I was a child, and I asked my mother what it meant (as it obviously wasn't being used in the context with which I was familiar). She simply answered "It means a man who likes men, or a woman who likes women," without elaboration or implied judgement. Having asked the question and gotten a reasonable sounding answer (simplistic but age-appropriate), that was it for me - I put it out of my mind. Sometimes kids will ask when they're ready, and that's an opportunity. Sometimes.kids ask when they're ready, but if they're never even exposed to anyone "different" they're not going to even ask. Then creating opportunities for dialog becomes the parents' responsibility.
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Rev. Gary Shade
I agree with Rhonda.
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Susan
Absolutely correct!
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Qrez
Elsa being lesbian would be awesome! people have such silly steriotypes about homosexuality when it perfectly natural..
I mean hell nature is full of gayness all over te place nothing strange about it.
There is also a lot of focus around the sexual aspect of being gay while people often forget that there are also the romantic aspect of it...
It's perfectly normal and natural and about bloody time disney has a lesbian princess..
They should not make it a thing though... just a normal thing because frankly only insane bigoted lunatics give a damn...
I mean it's not like gay people go around opressing straight people and call them damn dirty pussy fucker or something....
Relax take a chill pill and enjoy life and dont worry about what other people are doing.
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Ben
Sorry buddy, but Elsa being a lesbian is far from 'awesome.' We don't need to be teaching anything associated to sex ed to these children yet. They're simply too young to be thinking about that stuff. I mean, come on! They're preschoolers. Let's just teach them something that's actually worth experiencing instead, alright?
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Gene
There is no reason why Disney needs to play parents to children. Children need to be educated in all areas of relationships and things they will face during their lives. I do not want Disney or anyone else to try to portray political, social, family, relationships, etc. to children. This is a personal family training and discussion, that is now being pushed on children. They get enough poor information throughout their lives without it being popularized by the media. I pray that Disney will stay out of the brain washing, politically correct area and continue being the childhood fantasy and excitement that we grew up with. I will never go back to Disney Land or purchase anything from them if they don't. Disney, let the parents and churches teach values and morals and keep to enjoyable fantasy!
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hsw
My sense of what you're saying is that you're fine with Disney representing values and morals as long as they're yours.
I don't think it's teaching values and morals to allow a little reality into the story. There are all kinds of people in the world, and to represent more than one kind of relationship is "teaching" nothing - it's just failing to teach the rigid, non-inclusive world view that some have.
There were - and probably still are - a lot of people who didn't see why entertainment media had to show minorities in anything other than "their place." In your way of thinking, would that be "teaching" in the sense that the world is a diverse place and there are more people than "us" in it, in many different roles?
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Dreamsinger
Gene, if we went with your first suggestion ("I do not want Disney or anyone else to try to portray political, social, family, relationships, etc. to children"), then we can't really follow it up with your second suggestion ("let the parents and churches teach values and morals and keep to enjoyable fantasy!") because Disney, parents, and churches all portray political, social, family, relationships, etc. to everyone.
Maybe in somewhat different settings, but they all portray it. Can you define what you don't want Disney doing, so that it doesn't hinder parents from doing it?
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Steven J Frey
While we are at it, why not make a new movie where Walt Disney himself returns from the grave as a flesh eating zombie?
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hsw
Because most of us are trying to have a conversation about ideas, not just interjecting sarcasm.
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Dreamsinger
Lighten up a bit, hsw, we're supposedly in charge of battling dark forces, not dark humor.
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Dreamsinger
I like the idea, Steven, but Walt would need to get his head back in the game, figuratively and literally -- it's on a cryostorage shelf, unlike his interred body....
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Minister Greg
Gays make up approximately 2% of the population. Talk about the tail (small at that) trying to wag the dog! Disney stands to lose well over half their buying customers if they make that move. Intelligent business decisions will prevail.
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Dreamsinger
GLBT people make a lot more money than the fundamentalists. And they like to buy things. A lot of things. Really, really, really nice expensive things. Things that generate a lot of state sales taxes, property taxes, tourism taxes, utility taxes, business taxes... that in turn help run the country.
Be nice. He who has the gold, makes the rules.
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Rhonda
Sorry...money and gold mean nothing. Bad argument...this is a subject that is about children...not adults and their using money to control others.
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Dreamsinger
Adults have more money available to control others, compared to kids. Who runs the megachurches? Who runs the military? Who runs the country's various levels of government?
Adults do.
So adults decide what kids can and will not watch. And often times, those adults make decisions that make no sense.
Perfect example: Miley Cyrus, the Kardashian family, and booty shorts are considered perfectly acceptable for 6-year-olds.
Women who are leaders in science, medicine, technology, and art, are considered evil man-haters who should be shunned because they promote the idea that it's okay for a girl to be intelligent and innovative.
But kids don't know anything except what they see and hear from adults, because they're not old enough to know a lot of the information we have access to.
Because adults have the money to control others.
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Frankie
I would like to know how you all can say have you not look to see what the Bible says that about this why would you want to tech this to our kids why? It is a sin. If they do give her a girlfriend my kids will not go see it we are to protect kids from this
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Dreamsinger
Yes, Frankie. Because Bristol Palin is the Paramount Pedestal of Purity, hmm?
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Carol Amina
You crack me up Dreamsinger! and again Frankie people here keep "assuming" that we all follow the Bible and teachings of Jesus. We don't all have to live by the rules of a few!
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Dreamsinger
"Brave" (2012) already beat "Frozen" to the punch. Besides, if Disney's perfectly okay with a lesbian fish couple in the upcoming "Finding Dory", then they need to stop worrying about causing a problem with Elsa having a girlfriend. She can handle herself, Merida could easily handle herself, Mulan was a crossdresser who saved the Q'in Empire. Heck, I learned to appreciate classical opera from a homicidal cartoon rabbit in drag every Saturday morning.
I mean seriously, folks, this is the biggest threat you can think of? If you're worried about a cartoon woman having a girlfriend, then the relationship you have with your wife, your girlfriend, or your side chick, needs some improvement instead. Go home and spend time connecting with your family. They told me that you look terrible in tinfoil.
Stay awesome and always keep it classy, folks.
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Robyn
If a man stands for nothing he will fall for anything. If this does happen I for one will no longer provide Disney any of my money and I will rid my house of anything Disney. They are an entertainment industry not a moral compass.
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Dreamsinger
NOW you decide that Disney's not a moral compass? After all the pedophiles and child sex traffickers that work as costume characters and use the theme parks as their hunting grounds, after all the misogyny and support for domestic abuse (via Stockholm Syndrome in various films), after hiring child actors at really young ages and making them work in complete isolation with the outside world, before cutting them off at age 18 with no sense of how the real world works...
...NOW you're going to tell Disney what-for? They've always been an entertainment industry, why'd you ever think they were saints?
May you be repaid the kindness of your words, Robyn. Threefold.
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Leigh Barrett
I thought the Universal Life Church accepted everyone. Acceptance I thought was Universal, without question. And yet now I see posts about whether or not transgender youth should be "allowed" to determine their sexual identity. Should Disney have a lesbian princess? What is the Church's position on these issues? And why has a supposedly universally accepting entity entered into a debate that it would seem is totally outside their purview? Will you next be raising the issue of who should be our next president? NO wait you have a blog link to a site that is clearly antagonistic to the sitting president. Has ULC morphed into an extension of the Westboro Baptist Church?
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Restrepo
The only WESTBORO baptists here are the delusional liberals who want to teach MY daughter to be a lesbian
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Dreamsinger
You have a rather odd sense of reality, Restrepo. Westboro Baptist Church does not ken to liberals, and they're a very closed church that's limited to family members and whomever is unfortunate enough to get kidnapped and brainwashed into religious hatred.
BTW, hypothetical question here. What would you do, if your daughter came out and said she was a lesbian?
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Restrepo
Typical, homo-bating liberal question. I'd make her sit and watch every season of "Baywatch" until she came to her senses.
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Dreamsinger
David Hasslehoff is not a good representation of pure manly-man masculinity.
As someone who's helping raise his fiancee's daughter (from a previous marriage), I genuinely hope that yours is much smarter than both of us, Restrepo.
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Restrepo
Then maybe I'd take her to meet a good hetero female role model, like Kim Kardashian or Lindsey Lohan.
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Dreamsinger
I'd go with Lindsey. Kim hasn't hit rock bottom yet.
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tygress66
I think the Disney writers should be left alone to develop their characters as they see fit. Stop pressuring them to make a character one way or another just to satisfy one person or another's agenda. You want a gay princess? Create one yourself! And let Disney's people have the freedom to do with their characters what they want.
By the way, we don't need a gay Disney princess to show children that a girl doesn't need a man to be successful. We have history for that. Ever hear of Queen Elizabeth 1? Single woman, no king, and a queen you did NOT want to mess with! Or the Egyptian queen Hatshepsut, the woman Pharaoh? We should be showing these real-life, strong ladies of history to our children and stop relying so much on the entertainment industry to instill the values we want in our kids.
And for the record, Elsa is no princess, she is a Queen. Anna was the princess. And the love of these sisters was already enough for them to win. Some lessons on values shine on their own and don't need sexuality injected into them to get the point across. Believe it or not, most of life is about things other than sex. Leave the sex out for once, please.
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Burbank Baby
I like your comment, DM. I'd just like to add that women not only don't need a man to complete their lives, they don't need another woman either.
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Michael Spalding.
Raising children to believe that love is love can not be bad. You can love whatever race, color, or gender that you want to, Love is Love. The fact that there needs to be such a big stink about a homosexual queen of ice and snow shows that the vast majority is not ready to simply accept life from a stand point of Love.
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James
It's disgusting to use Children's movies to promote the LGBT lifestyle. It is not a practice that is safe for children neither should it be encouraged. Wrong is wrong and I hope that Disney chooses the side of the vast majority and either leave Elsa as single or bring a male prince into her life. This is what the majority prefer.
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Dreamsinger
I don't recall anyone getting this worked up over "Glee" or "Modern Family".
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Burbank Baby
3-7 year olds were never the Glee or Modern Family target audiences.
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Rhonda
that is the crux of the whole issue...we are talking about children...not adults.
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Dreamsinger
3-7 year olds were never the original Disney movie target audiences, either, according to Walt. Your point, Burbank?
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Dreamsinger
Besides, the only one pointing a gun at someone's head and telling them they must watch what they don't want to see is you. Most cable companies offer 100 other channels to watch in their basic packages, so pick one or better yet...
...read a book.
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hsw
Are your children having sex, James? That's not a practice I'd encourage no matter their orientation. I ask because what you're suggesting is that it's perfectly OK to "promote" hetero sex to chlidren.
Thankfully the world doesn't run by "majority rule" or minorities would never have a voice.
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Dreamsinger
Hey hsw, why do you care if someone else's kids are having sex? Why do you care who's having sex and how, unless they've allowed you to have sex with them?
Stay out of my bedroom too, while you're at it. My fiancee and I don't like to share.
The biggest reason that Christianity is desperately running around, and threatening everyone, is because for a long time that religion has been the only rule... and they're no longer the majority rule.
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hsw
Hi Dreamsinger I think you missed my point, which may have been poorly made and was definitely not to care who is doing what in whose bedroom. My brother is gay, I have a transgendered friend who was tolerant of my struggle with pronouns when she became he (purely habit but hard to break), and I have a host of friends of all persuasions.
I was responding - again perhaps poorly - to Jame's statement "It is not a practice that is safe for children neither should it be encouraged" - in regard to the LGBT "lifestyle" (his words not mine).
Sorry if it was confusing - I'm an ally from way back and a happily married atheist grandmother who taught my children to accept everyone as they come.
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Dreamsinger
I humbly and regretfully apologize, hsw. Thank you for following up with the clarification.
Maybe the mods can incorporate some sort of tagging feature in these comments sections? That would probably help keep the confusion down.
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Judi
I think a sort-of non-sexual love interest would be great; one with feminine features and voice, no silly lipstick, feminine hairstyle like a prince's, dressed as a prince where you're really not sure what gender it is. Show that it really doesn't matter what sex the person is. Give them a name that could be taken either way. The he/she pronouns might be a little tricky, but hey... It can be done.
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Dreamsinger
You mean, like "Mulan"?
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Carol Amina
Now that is an interesting idea! I like where your going because it allows a child to form there own idea. Thank you
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Jeff Smith
Don't understand why people are concerned about which collections of lines of code and textures another collection of lines of code and textures get written to have a fake relationship with.
As far as i am concerned, they could decide to have Elsa date Commodore 64 with legs. It is entertainment.
I mean another show for kids got flak recently for featuring a Co-ed locker room, mind you that character in the series, are usually naked, and are ponies.
Basically, people complain because they want to, not because there is something wrong.
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Robyn
The problem as I see it, is that LGBT community wants to accepted as "normal" by society standards. I don't see how you can legislate that type of acceptance when there will always be people who see it for as a deviation from societal norm. Just like with Target put your money where your mouth is if you feel that strongly. Example: my son served in Iraq, Starbucks doesn't support our military I don't spend my money there. simple yes!
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Dreamsinger
Starbucks is crappy coffee anyway. I worked there for a month, couldn't stand violating my own personal ethics of feeding customers stuff I wouldn't even give my dog, and left.
As for Target: https://www.propublica.org/article/why-north-carolinas-new-anti-lgbt-law-is-a-trojan-horse
You shouldn't have to legislate common sense, you're absolutely right.
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Burbank Baby
Being a Christian doesn't mean you have to be intolerant or afraid of anyone, certainly not anyone who is lesbian, bi, gay or transgender. Life is pretty tough when that is your orientation or your choice. In fact, if you want people to think of you as a Christian, you have to be understanding and tolerant - you know, like Christ. The question for me is, doesn't tolerance work both ways? Do we all have to be forced into someone else's mold?
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Dreamsinger
Tolerance also means not walking up to complete strangers at Starbucks, talk all flirty, and then break into "Can I tell you something that I think is important?" before going into preaching Jesus at them.
If I had a penny for every time I was on the receiving end of that, just at Starbucks while minding my own business and working on a design project for a client, I could afford the rent in Heaven. "Both ways" does not mean "make an offer nobody is ever allowed to refuse."
God ain't an XBox game, you don't rack up badges and high scores by walking like an Amway chick.
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Dane
As long as they write it well, I see no reason not to make Elsa gay. It could be troublesome if Disney mishandles it, though, so keep your fingers crossed.
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Ben
Pity you don't see a reason with she shouldn't be gay, because there's plenty of good reasons why she shouldn't. If she's gay, she'll encourage her young fans to relate to her new character aspect (in other words, be gay). And of course, we just can't change children or their sexuality, just improve them is all.
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Dreamsinger
After an openly gay man sang the theme song "Circle of Life" for Disney's animated movie "The Lion King", there's no reason at all to have issues with Elsa's sexuality. If you want to "improve" children, you'll have better success by not basing your homophobia on a Bible version that was commissioned by an openly gay British king at the start of the 1600s. Unless you'd like to fully commit to that mindset, and never again attend sporting events (which usually plays the chorus lyrics to "We Will Rock You", sung by an openly bisexual rock star.) Your call, but it takes a lot of hate to attack a movie illustration.
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Dreamsinger
After Disney commissioned Elton John to sing the "Circle of Life" for the animated film "The Lion King", how is this even a relevant issue?
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Ben
Well, it's funny you should ask that, Dreamsinger. Because how is Elton John even relevant to the notion of a gay main character in a kids' movie? I mean it's not like Elton himself is a fictional person in the movie world, now is he?
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Dreamsinger
No, but he is gay.
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Ben
But you didn't answer my question, Dreamsinger. How is an existent gay person who works on a movie relevant to a fictional gay character in a movie? How could such a person encourage viewers to be just like him when all they know about that particular person is that he created the music for the movie?
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Dreamsinger
I could ask you the same about Elsa, because all anyone knew about her during "Frozen" was that she was a magical ice princess with a fiery temper. It's a great animated film, very traditionally Disney-esque in its dark undertones.
The bigger issue you should have with Elsa is her anger management issues. When she cast the spell to bring winter to the land, she ended up killing most of the townsfolk by freezing them to death. It's a large part of why the townspeople hated her so much.
Being into women isn't such a huge issue, compared to ecological genocide.
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Ben
"I could ask you the same about Elsa..."
Well if you did ask me that, my answer would be, "If Elsa being gay is meant to be a new concept in the movie franchise that the viewers are supposed to learn from, then obviously that's encouraging them to relate to that." There's just something for you to think about.
"Because all anyone knew about her during “Frozen” was that she was a magical ice princess with a fiery temper."
That and also the lesson she was went through to teach us, "An act of true love will thaw a frozen heart", not "Any type of true love will thaw a frozen heart." If you know what I mean by 'any type.' ;)
"The bigger issue you should have with Elsa is her anger management issues."
Well, I don't. And you're not gonna convince me what I should think about Elsa by changing the subject, Dreamsinger. You know that.
"When she cast the spell to bring winter to the land, she ended up killing most of the townsfolk by freezing them to death."
Are you sure she killed any townsfolk, Dreamsinger? Because I've seen the movie hundreds of times and not once have I seen a towns person freeze to death. Seems to me you're just assuming that she killed most of the townsfolk. Because...your assumptions are nobody else's reality.
"It’s a large part of why the townspeople hated her so much."
They didn't hate her, they were scared of her because of her powers. And this I know because of the scene where she first revealed her powers by accident to the townsfolk. Maybe you should watch the movie carefully again next time.
"Being into women isn’t such a huge issue, compared to ecological genocide."
Are you implying that the real issue with the idea of Elsa being gay here is 'being into women?' Because you're certainly going about it the wrong way.
You should really think more carefully about what you're gonna say before you actually say it, Dreamsinger. So far, all you've said was anything but relevant to what I'm talking about here.
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Dreamsinger
Prove me wrong.
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Dreamsinger
No, seriously, if I'm wrong then prove it. I'm interested in discussing the issue, as are many other members, but using personal insults and dehumanizing phrases is likely to make people less receptive to your arguments.
This isn't Facebook.
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hsw
Which is why I stopped "discussing" with Ben - he doesn't "discuss" - he just keeps talking.
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Ben
"No, seriously, if I’m wrong then prove it."
Look like it's already be proven, Dreamsinger. If you wanna see how, try reading your replies again but carefully this time.
"Using personal insults and dehumanizing phrases is likely to make people less receptive to your arguments."
Is this an argument to you? Because what I'm saying sounds ugly to you? Well I hate to break it to you, but that's just how it goes Dreamsinger. Just because somebody else's words sound ugly to you, doesn't mean they're TRULY ugly. And if you make a habit out of believing something that sounds pretty to you but is likely to be a lie deep down...you're gonna be hurt by it for the rest of your life.
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Ben
"Which is why I stopped “discussing” with Ben – he doesn’t “discuss” – he just keeps talking."
I don't intend to mock you HSW, but since when has "talking" ever been a problem for you? Or are you still willing to reject another's statement and "talk?" Not even try to show some a little bit of empathy and maybe even learn something new?
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Dreamsinger
The irony is that you've indicated that I'm an idiot, and yet still haven't realized that you were brought down to my level and beaten with experience.
hsw is definitely the smarter one of the three of us.
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Ben
"The irony is that you’ve indicated that I’m an idiot..."
And there's the poor perception we've been looking for. Nobody is an idiot here, but just someone with misunderstandings.
"And yet still haven’t realized that you were brought down to my level and beaten with experience."
You're telling me this when you haven't yet realised you're unwilling to listen to anybody but yourself? Now that's ironic!
"hsw is definitely the smarter one of the three of us."
Or do you just see someone as you want to see them as? Because...I wouldn't waste my breath.
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Robert Garcia
Missouri on it all is if Disney is going to do what Disney is going to do I'm an artist and I draw cartoons lf I have a passion about a certain character that I'm drawing and that person is gay or lesbian I would go ahead and go and write that and I would not change it because of what a few people don't like it's just like anything else that everybody else does if you're writing a book and that character is gay they go ahead and write that character is gay or lesbian why change that character just to see what everybody else wants that character to be so whatever Disney dose is fine with me but it would be really great to have one gay lesbian princess out there that would be awesome and that's just my opinion
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Bob
Putting gays in cartoons and other entertainment is a good way to ease the shock from kids and adults that results if the infringement on someones free will and pursuit of happiness.
Regardless of weather or not being gay is good or bad, biological or environmental doesn't really matter. What matters is that like it or not there happens to be gay people.
Most start realizing their sexual preferences at a young age and can't change what they're attracted to(try as they might ) Starting at a young age they hear from people that being gay is so bad,evil sick,...... Since most of their peers are taught the same it is reinforced by them.
What do you think that does to someone?What the issue really is.....is it your right to inflict emotional and phycological damage to a person? Because a part of your book that you choose to focus on condemns them. What arn't remarried devorcies being shamed?
If it is a sin and againsts gods plan. Shouldn't that be between them and god ?
How are you so threatened by someone else's life? How is it really affecting you?
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Dreamsinger
Besides, straight folks are born of the same original sin as GLBT folks (and bear children through that same original sin.) How are we any better than them, in the eyes of God?
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Carol Amina
Dear Rev James, Thank you for your post! It asks some very good questions and more over is to the point.
Peace and blessings
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Terry
Rev Terry I believe 100% the way rev James put it
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pastorrichard13
If Disney starts promoting LGBT content, I will encourage my children not to buy any more Disney movies. That would be promoting a normalization of homosexual activity. I will stop purchasing Disney products as well.
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hsw
If depicting Elsa as lesbian is shown as one stop on the continuum we call "normal," that will be awesome. It's entirely your right, however, to refuse to support that. I find football a complete waste of time, but I don't deny others the right to watch it (or even think they're silly for doing so - my interests are just different) - I simply choose not to watch it myself. Football survives quite well without me, and IMHO, Disney will survive just fine without you.
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Carol Amina
I love your post hsw! Thank you.
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Dreamsinger
I proudly do the weddings that pastorrichard13 won't.
A GLBT marriage isn't "promoting a normalization of homosexual activity." It's helping two people who are committed in a lasting, loving relationship establish and honor their covenant with God. And if you're not willing to do the job, then there's the door, don't let it hit ya where the good Lord split ya.
We all do jobs in life that have tasks we don't like or agree with. We all have tasks in life that we don't like or agree with, as well. Officiating GLBT marriages of any religion (or NO religion!) is part of the job of being an ordained minister in the ULC. It's what we all signed up for, we knew full well it was part of the deal when we hit that big green button at the end of the process.
Ignorance is not an excuse, nor is it bliss.
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Carol Amina
Nicely said Dreamsinger
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HeidiAnne Leon
I agree completely Dreamsinger. As a minister, I serve all of the Lord's children, not just the ones whose view point is the same as mine. Furthermore, I understand that some people find that homosexuality is a sin or an abomination. Jesus never said anything about this in the Gospels portions of the Bible. He did speak against divorce in the Gospels. I notice that people never said anything when in the late 1980's there was a tv sitcom that was shown on ABC on Friday nights and it was a family show. It was called Step by Step . It starred Suzanne Sommers, and Patrick Duffy. It was about a divorced Dad who had 3 kids , who married a widowed Mom with 3 kids of her own. Am the only one seeing hypocrites here? i personally would be honored to perform an LGBT wedding. A marriage is about 2 people that love one another. It isn't my place to judge, but i would rather focus on love, rather than on hatred and violence. i notice that a lot of people on here are more concerned with a character based one one's imagination that has an attracted to someone of the same gender, rather than all the violence in the movies and in real life. My suggestion is if you don't want your kids to see a movie that has any gay, bisexual, or lesbian characters, don't take them. It is called a choice. Just like being a bigot is a choice. I find it disgraceful that ministers on this site and else where use their ministry or position to justify or rationalize their bigotry. The Lord loves all of His children, not just the straight ones. Maybe I'm not understanding the quote that Jesus said " love, your neighbor, as yourself" I thought it meant to love all of your neighbors, near and far. Also I thought it meant, to love them the way one should love themselves, only , if they are similar to yourself, such as gender, race, nationality, sexual orientation, etc. In my opinion, the world would be a better place if we followed the Golden Rule.
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Carol Amina
Thank you HeidiAnne Sekreta for helping to restore my faith in people. There is so much negativity going on regarding LGBT folks and its just to nice to see someone who is Christian with this kind of love and balance. Much respect to you Peace and Blessings
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Dreamsinger
Thank you both, HeidiAnne and Carol. It's good to know that Brother John (who's tagteaming with me on another article) and I aren't the only ones.
Stay awesome, and may Fortune favor your Paths in the days ahead. :)
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JAMES JUNKINS
Personally I don't feel a child's movie is a place to put political agendas. Children who may never have a gay thought in their life may idolize Elsa and at that point plant the seed. Its not that it is right or wrong to be gay as men and woman it is not up to us to judge only the Lord our savior. We may not aprove of the act or we may think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread but that is out opinion and we should still love the individual as a child of God. With that being said so was John Wayne Gaisie and Jeffery Dommer but I don't see a protest to make a Disney charictor after them so where do we draw the line on human rights and children's movies.
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hsw
"...plant the seed"? You don't "catch" gay or become gay because you saw someone else who was gay.
I assume when you say "...so was..." John Wayne Gacy and Jeffrey Dahmer, you mean that you consider them each a "child of God." That's a different conversation for me, as I don't believe in God, but they were definitely serial killers. That is both a hideous evil and a crime. Are you suggesting that there is some parallel, or that serial killers have "human rights"? Bringing them into a conversation about a character is an animated children's movie is so out of left field that I have no idea how to respond to that.
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Carol Amina
Thank you hsw! I was going to write a reply to what James Junkins said but no need as you took the words right out of my mouth! I mean I have known a few kids that identify themselves as gay or Trans. And OMG why even mention people like John Wayne Gacy and Jeffrey Dahmer in the same sentence as LGBT folks?
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Dreamsinger
John Wayne Gacy grew up with an abusive father who regularly his mother and siblings during drunken rages. The guy wasn't gay, he was suffering from a severe disassociation that used the rape and murder of male victims to either replicate the years of pain and suffering, or to take revenge on his dad.
It's a rather common danger for children who endure a form of long-term psychosexual trauma. If it's severe enough, even the gender of the victim shifts; crossdressing is a frequent coping mechanism.
Source: Biography -- http://www.biography.com/people/john-wayne-gacy-10367544#synopsis
Jeffrey Dahmer was inexplicably affected by a minor double-hernia surgery as a young boy, while growing up in a well-to-do two-parent home. Anything he wanted, he got... and then the surgery was a brutal reality check. His parents' marriage deteriorated after relocating to a different part of the country, and the divorce became brutal in court.
http://www.biography.com/people/jeffrey-dahmer-9264755#early-life
You asked why people always associate GLBT folks with those two, Carol. GLBT folks are the preferred targets of persecution by the straight folks who have the power and means, but lack the resolve to take responsibility for the consequences of their own systematic failures.
HB2 being a great example. Transgender people are the most-assaulted demographic in the GLBT community, by the GLBT community. So when the state legislature wanted to punish the city of Charlotte for taking the initiative of protecting its citizens' right to non-discrimination at work, along with making it so that no city or county in North Carolina could legally authorize a raise in minimum wage on their own, they needed a viable whipping boy.
And thanks to folks like Pat Robertson, Kim Davis, and John Hagee, in this day and age there's no better choice than transgender folks. With the association of psychotic mass murderers being gay (which completely defies the psychology of empathy, love and abuse), it was easy to link it to something that affects everyone: using the bathroom.
Even Dahmer wasn't as sick and demented as the politicians.
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Carol Amina
Thank you Dreamsinger for some interesting facts on both John W and Jeffrey D. I have worked in children mental health for a very long time. I have met and interacted with some children who have been through un-thinkable things. It finally broke me as i too am one of those kids (only I ended up on the helping not hurting side of things) and yes your right the Pat Robertson's of the world along with some of there political partners love to further there twisted agenda's by spreading fear and hate. So much for Jesus's love or what he was trying to teach.
I do love reading your posts. I find them both educational and entertaining.
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hsw
Yes thank you so much Dreamsinger for details I'd never read about the two and their family histories.
Carol Amina I'm in HR but I worked in a children's mental health setting for six years, and I saw the kids and heard their stories from the direct care workers. One of the most troubled kids there came from a "religious" family - the phone was near the door to my office and I used to hear him talking to his mother, who from his responses was clearly telling him how much God disapproved of everything he did and everything he was. Many stories but I don't have to tell you - you've seen them.
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Dreamsinger
Carol and hsw,
On a side note, people thought that I was gay because I never dated in elementary, middle, or high school. Then again, I wasn't quite interested in dating at the time either, because I was either always studying or doing labor work that should've been done by professional licensed people (except they were always too expensive).
Nobody ever saw me ask anyone out, so they assumed a lot about me. They never knew what was going on at home, because by my 10th birthday I knew better than to say anything to anyone.
My second year in college was when I felt safe enough to date, that I wouldn't get in trouble or cause my girlfriends trouble. And my dating choices were very enabling of my trauma, because dysfunctional relationships were really all I knew anything about.
So sometimes a cigar may be a cigar, and sometimes it may actually be something that's trying really hard to look like a cigar so you won't try to light it.
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Dreamsinger
I can say this much, however.
People are answering for what they've done. I didn't pull the trigger on "Operation Grand Slam" in Polk County the other week, but if the activity's math adds up right, I know the person who sang for her life and caused it to happen, via my trafficker in Tepic.
As angry as I am that it took so long to be taken seriously (over a year), I am relieved and happy that justice is finally being served, and many lives are breathing more freely today.
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hsw
"So sometimes a cigar may be a cigar, and sometimes it may actually be something that’s trying really hard to look like a cigar so you won’t try to light it."
Oh how I can relate to that - I went in the opposite direction - and ended up pregnant at 15 - but all I really wanted was somebody to take care of me and get me out of there.
The theme to my adolescent years should be "Looking for Love in All the Wrong Places."
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Dreamsinger
The theme to mine should be "Drugs are bad, mm'kay?"
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HeidiAnne Leon
Dreamsinger, i agree with you completely. I am a minister to all of the Lord's children. However, if a person will say mean things or show violence towards another person or group, i will explain how this is wrong, and pray for them If they are still showing their violent. behavior, or saying mean things, I will dust them off my feet, and move on like Jesus instructed us to do. In my interpretation which could be wrong, in regards to the quote that Jesus said, " love your neighbor as yourself'" that didn't mean the ones that are the same race, religion, etc. we are, or has the same view points. He meant all of our neighbors, meaning all of us here on Earth.Furthermore, in my opinion, I find that so many people are focusing on homosexuality being a sin, in which Jesus never said anything about in the Gospels, while ignoring abominations, such as pre marital sex. Jesus did say in the Gospels that it was wrong to divorce, but no one speaks out against that. Infact, there was a family tv sitcom in the late 1980's or early 1990's called Step by Step. It starred Patrick Duffy . The show was about a divorced Dad of 3, who married a widowed Mom of 3, and their blended families. This was aired on ABC at 8pm. The show was on the air for a few years. I see many hypocrites, who claim to want to show family values, but according to the Bible, this is against was Jesus actually said in the Gospel. I'm surprised, and appalled that ministers on this site are so opposed to others that are different from us. I understand that it's your right as a parent and as a minister, as to what your child will be exposed to, and which group of the Lord's children you will minister to.I just find it distasteful, when ministers here and else where , use their ministry to justify and rationalize their contempt on some of the Lord's children. I just want to say to the the ones that find homosexuality being a sin: What would Jesus do?
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Carol Amina
Well stated HeidiAnne!
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Dreamsinger
Plus, the KJV Bible version was commissioned by the gay 17th Century British king himself. Irony, thy name is Leviticus.
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Dreamsinger
How ironic that we're arguing over a character whose best-known advice comes from a song title.
Let it gooo, let it go-oooooo...
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Carol Amina
Dreamsinger....omg you crack me up! Your comment of: "So sometimes a cigar may be a cigar, and sometimes it may actually be something that’s trying really hard to look like a cigar so you won’t try to light it." Was priceless!
I do that now! At age almost 60 with a to long track record of choosing using abusing men I've given up and just given into being alone. At first it was hard but now I'm so much more peaceful! I could not figure out how to reply to your last post in order so posted here. Sorry Peace-
Dreamsinger
Don't worry, sometimes I even give myself a "WTF" moment.
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Carol Amina
lol.... yes very ironic :-)
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Reverend Lisa Smith
HELL NO!! and the Devil is a lier. God made man and woman to be joined as one flesh and as husband and wife. I know the ULC believes in Gay marriage, and homosexuality , but its wrong in the sight of God, and to take the innocence away from children and corrupt their minds with homosexuality at such a young age through their favorite medium of animation is horrible. Homosexuality is an abomination to God. I hope Disney does not compromise its tradition of the handsome Prince and the beautiful woman meeting, and marrying.
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hsw
I'm a little confused and I just want to clarify a couple of things:
First, you're OK with sexuality in the form of a handsome prince, but not OK with sexuality if it's a handsome princess?
Second, if you "know the ULC believes in Gay marriage, and homosexuality," and you obviously do not, why are you here?
Thanks in advance for clarifying - some days I'm a little show.
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Dreamsinger
I had a straight couple as foster adoption parents, Reverend Lisa.
Given the unimaginable amount of abuse, violence, and medical trauma that I had to survive every day at their hand... and the nightmares I still have every night, because I had to survive them ON MY OWN...
...if I had a choice, I'd take my chances with a GLBT couple.
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hsw
I don't believe my abuse was anywhere near as severe as yours, but being the only one of seven who was not biologically related to my stepfather, I was the child who saw a side of him the others never saw. Spanking was an excuse to pull down my pants and put his hand on my ass, bath time I won't even go into, but let's just say I've told the story to each of my therapists, and they universally stepped out of their therapeutic demeanor and called it "creepy." So many little things - so many disturbing memories. I'm over 60 and I still have daily flashbacks triggered by things most people find to be normal daily occurrences. I would happily have taken my chances with a LGBT couple.
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Carol Amina
I'm in your club hsw, only my abuser was my bio mom...and like you I'm almost 60 and still deal with the pain..PTSD.. My savior and comforter was a guy who lived up the street, he was 10 years older than me and at the time I didn't know what gay was but knew he was not like most the guys/men I knew. He would comfort and console me after beatings and odd touching that I suffered at my mothers hand. When I started my 1st period he went to the store and got me the things I needed then gave me a talking to about boys and sex and without that I would have ended up pregnant at 10 or 11 just cause I had no clue.
That's why the kind of hatred and mean remarks about the LGBT Community hurts me to my soul...evil was in my home and it's name was mother...my Angel was a gay man named Brian who died of AIDS at the tender age of 28.. -
HeidiAnne Leon
hsw, I'm so sorry, I could relate. My second cousin who adopted me did the same things and raped me for the last time when it was on my 30th birthday and I became pregnant. I understand the flashbacks and sometimes still get triggered.You are not alone. You are a very special person. God bless. Hug hug
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HeidiAnne Leon
I'm so sorry Carol. I agree that your angel was Brian. What a horrible and tragic way for him to die. he sounded like a wonderful soul. I definitely see his positive influence he had. He died at 28, when you were only 18 and this was 42 years ago?Not to be mean or stupid, but that means he died in 1974 from A.IDS. I didn't know people died of it that long ago. i am aware that Rock Hudson died in 1985. I'm not trying to argumentative , so please forgive me if if it sounds like I'm accusing you of lying. Your angel Brian was a true gentleman, and you are such a lady to recognize it. God bless. Hug hug
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HeidiAnne Leon
I'm so sorry Dreamsinger. I could relate to the abuse. I was adopted by family members and was abused, every way possible. Thankfully, I don't have nightmares every night any more. May you soon have peace. Have a blessed weekend. Hug hug
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Carol Amina
Hi Dreamsinger, I'm sorry but Math is never my strong suit and my memory is horrible when it comes to dates.
I was 25 when Brian died...it was about 6 weeks after I got married. He was to sick to come to the wedding. That was in 1981 I believe. And Brian was 6 years older I remember because he walked me home from kindergarten when he was in 6th grade and I was so lost when he left for Jr High.
I didn't know back then it was AIDS. I knew he had been very sick for quite a long time. I remember his sister telling me years later that it was brain cancer that we now know folks with AIDS got back then.
I'm sorry for my timeline being a mess, but my point was he was a positive person in my life. Hope that makes sense. -
Dreamsinger
No worries, Carol. My best friend from college, Dave, was the first person to help me realize that I am a human being, I am worth being treated with respect and dignity, and that I can hold my own in "playing Devil's Advocate" in late-night coffeehaus debates with a Taoist Jew.
He and I met in 1995 through a mutual VocRehab caseworker. I ended up being the Best Man at his wedding (to a devout Catholic Catalonian woman) in 2002, worked at the same library branch until he died in 2008. He was the fourth pediatric heart transplant recipient ever in the U.S., and had a second transplant about 18-19 years after the first.
The second transplant started rejecting about a month or so after the surgery, and like a true student of Bushido, he faced it without fear or regret.
His mom called me that morning to let me know. I still wear his uncle's Australian Air Force signet ring, Dave gave it to me because the saying on it describes me perfectly:
"Who dares, wins."
We may not always remember the whens, or the wheres, but we never forget how they made us grow into who we are today.
You honored Brian by sharing his legacy, Carol. Everything else is details. ;)
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Dreamsinger
Nothing but mad respect and massive Namaste to you both, hsw and HeidiAnne.
Reverend Lisa, family isn't about blood relation. It's about who's willing to stand with you, as you face the abyss head-on.
The ones who know your scars without ever having to see them, because they bear similar scars themselves.
The Devil does not lie. He only gives you what you are most willing to give into. And true strength is accepting that integrity can't be bought back at any price.
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Carol Amina
Nicely put dearDreamsinger!
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HeidiAnne Leon
Dreamsinger, you are a very sweet soul. I'm so sorry that you went through all of the abuse. My family who adopted me were unfortunately gay, who got married in order to "fit" in. This was in the 1960's, so they were not able to live their lives openly. I am grateful, however, because I was adopted by my older sister who also abused me every way possible , I was able to know my biological Dad, whom I had a wonderful relationship. For me, the Lord, made some very bad situations a bit brighter. I don't know that if you believe that the devil is real or not, but I do know as well as you that evil does exist. You, hsw, myself and others know that to be true. there are a lot of beautiful things and people out there and you are one of them. Blessings and hugs.
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Dreamsinger
HeidiAnne,
As a Wicce, like the rest of the Pagan community I do not believe in the existence of the ha'saitan (original ancient Hebrew term for "a devil").
I strongly believe in Free Will, which by its very nature destroys the excuse of "the Devil made me do it." Nobody -- not the Devil, not God, not a Sidhe, not even another person -- can simply "make" you do something you know is wrong.
You choose to do it, via your own Free Will.
We don't believe in the existence of Hell, at least not the Abrahamic concept of it, because Hell is what you make of it.
Essentially, if you choose of your own Free Will to cause harm (a violation of the Crede), "There will be Hell to pay."
Again, it's a choice. Our scars are testimony that no matter how hard they may hit us, they couldn't break us.
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Dreamsinger
On a side note, I don't believe in "luck" or "coincidence", but in "synchronicity".
We have a purpose, we go where we are meant to, when we are needed to go there, to learn something important... even if we're there to teach it to others.
When in doubt, follow your feet.
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HeidiAnne Leon
Dreamsinger, I understand what you wrote and that makes a lot of sense. I don't mean to sound silly, but you sound like a very cool person to know. i wish there could be a place where you and I could chat, so I could learn more about your beliefs, and possibly even have an online friendship. You have a lot of wisdom and compassion. You have a lot of sensitivity and empathy as well. You are definitely a blessing to know.
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Dreamsinger
It's not silly at all, HeidiAnne. Water finds its own level, be like water my friend.
https://youtu.be/APx2yFA0-B4
I'd be honored to chat more with you, Carol, Susan, hsw, and Brother John. Gonna see if I can update my ULC contact info today.
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Susan
Me too! I keep wondering why there are so many fundamentalist Christians here when we are not a Christian church.
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HeidiAnne Leon
I wonder that too, Susan Colmenares. I thought this was a place for ministers who love all of the Lord's children, not just a few the ministers whom they chose worthy of the Lord's love.
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Dreamsinger
Not all good people are Christians, and not all Christians are good people. All we can do is live by our word, and set an example by what we do (or not do). It takes a lot of strength to be part of the crowd, but even greater strength to walk alone.
I do not see the fundamentalist Christians as my enemies. Instead, their mistakes set a great example as to why practicing tolerance, acceptance, and self-accountability are essential to what we do, as ministers and as laypeople.
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HeidiAnne Leon
Good question hsw. I'm looking forward to her reply.
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Carol Amina
HidiAnne I didn't see a place to respond to your comment to Dreamsinger but me too! It would be nice if some like minded people here could find a way to connect outside of this kinda post and be online friends. Many things could come out of it, all for the good. Peace and blessings.
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Susan
I also agree. We could start a yaglhoo group.
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Dreamsinger
Would you guys be interested in doing this in a G+ Community format? It's a lot easier, and more people use Google/G+/Gmail these days than Yahoo. Let me know what you think. Apologies for the delay in the profile update, was spending time with my fiancee's kid before she goes off to summer camp.
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Rev. John D. Partin
"Reverend" Lisa Smith, I'll ask you, as I ask everyone else who says that "God's word" tells them that "homosexuality is wrong", how do you know that the Bible writers didn't just put their own views into "God's mouth", in order to "sanctify" and "justify" them and impose them on other people easier? Nobody has ever been able to give me any actual proof that that isn't what happened and so let's see if you can. My proof that that is what happened is that God isn't a homophobe or any kind of bigot and so if there is any obvious bigotry in the Bible, you can take it to the bank that it didn't come from God and so it must have come from people's putting their words into His mouth. Secondly, gayness' being presented to children won't demoralize them any more than straightness' being presented to them will, fairly and consistently speaking, short, of course, of actual sex acts in both cases. People's just relating to each other in an animated or real person film can't cause children any problems or be anything other than educational to them and teach them to be accepting of different lifestyles, which is a good and not a bad thing for them.
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Dreamsinger
@Reverend Lisa Smith:
I've noticed that God generally doesn't like people telling Him how He should do anything.
And you're basically telling God that not only should you decide who gets to make their covenant with Him, but deny certain people the ability to prevent adultery -- which was a MUCH bigger "abomination" than GLBT marriages.
So much so, that God laid it down for Moses to transcribe as one of the Ten Commandments.
Who are you to judge men before the Judge of all Men? I didn't know that Jesus quit his job yesterday.
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Carol Amina
Dream singers posts make me smile!
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Dreamsinger
And I'm only on my first cup of coffee, Carol.
StayAwesome and always #KeepItClassy.
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Carol Amina
Hi Dreamsinger, I interested in a whatever group. G+, I don't know about but would join if I had directions. I updated my profile yesterday and hope that would help others contact me.
Didn't see a place to answer your question under the post so I posted this comment and hope you see it. Peace-
HeidiAnne Leon
Dreamsinger and Carol, could one of you please explain to me o how i do that. thanks
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Dreamsinger
I don't know if G+ requires you to have a Gmail account at this point, there had been discussions about getting rid of that requirement. Either way, Sanctuary is open by invitation for ULC members who want to have a safe haven from negative rhetoric and infighting.
Behave, I don't like having gunk build up on my threshold.
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Carol Amina
Hi Dreamsinger, Ok can you post a link for the Sanctuary group? I do have a gmail email I can use. Remember I'm old so I don't always know how to figure these things out! lol
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Dreamsinger
No problem, Carol, I need to go back in there today to tighten up the Community Rules a bit, but here's the link:
https://plus.google.com/communities/103619753722252155418
Or, you can find it this way too:
1) Log into your Gmail account. 2) Click the 3x3 box by your profile icon, and select "G+". 3) Search for "Sanctuary" in Communities, and select the one with a Yin-Yang photo.
See you guys there!
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hsw
Me too!
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HeidiAnne Leon
I agree with your comment completely.One of the ten commandments mentions thou shall not commit adultery,and doesn't mention homosexuality. Furthermore, in the Gospels , Jesus Himself said nothing about homosexuality, but did say it was wrong to divorce. I notice, that no one on here is saying anything about that.
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Carol Amina
Thanks HeidiAnne Sekreta! Your pretty darn awesome your self Peace and blessings
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HeidiAnne Leon
Thank you so much Carol Aminia. God bless. Hug hug
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HeidiAnne Leon
You are awesome Dreamsinger and Carol
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Susan
I'd be fine with a G+ group
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Carol Amina
Me too! Tell me how to find it....ill show up
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HeidiAnne Leon
I'm so sorry Carol if i sounded like i was finding fault. You definitely had a guardian angel Brian who was watching over you. he sounded like such a sweet and wonderful soul. I'm so sorry that he wasn't able to come to your wedding, because he was too ill. When i think of the expression, only the good die young, your friend Brian comes to mind. God bless. Hug hug
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Carol Amina
Thank you HeidiAnne, hugs and peace back to you
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HeidiAnne Leon
Thank you, Carol. Hugs and peace.
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HeidiAnne Leon
Dreamsinger, your friend was definitely a good person, who was not only wise , but compassionate. You are a very special person. Your fiance and your future step daughter are very blessed to have you in their lives. Have a good weekend. Hug hug
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Dreamsinger
You're not too shabby yourself, HeidiAnne. Keep doing what you do best. :)
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Kendall
I am not against gay people. I just don't think Elsa should be. If they make another princess/queen that they planes to have be gay that's a totally different story. I am worried that it might ruffle some feathers though and make people do bad things(ps it say is it time for Disneys first princess, Elsa was a queen)
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Dreamsinger
It's at least 20 years too late for that concern, and Orlando was about 2 hours east of me. If you want to grow America's economy, please stop killing your potential customers.
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HeidiAnne Leon
Dreamsinger, may I join the group too please?
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Carol Amina
HeidiAnne did you see the link? if so you can just click it and there is a place to request to join. I just did it ... it was easy :-) hope to see you there.
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Dreamsinger
Yes, HeidiAnne. All ULC members are welcome to be a part of the Sanctuary G+ Community, but with one simple caveat.
Leave the hatred, xenophobia, and division outside. If you don't feel you can, I won't hold it against you if you choose not to cross our threshold at this time (but the door will always be open when you feel ready.)
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HeidiAnne Leon
Just so you know Dreamsinger, not only am i an ally for the LGBTQ community, I'm bisexual myself. In my opinion, it isn't a sin to love someone of the same gender, but judging them is.
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Since my four year old grandson collected everything Frozen last year, why not?
This is not we what god agreed on. Its not the people god disapproves, its the lifestyle he disapproves.
Are you commenting on my grandson's lack of gender role identification or on what you perceive to be my ignorance of God's plan?
I think what your doing here is trying to start an argument based on what you think not what God says to be truth. God loves the person not there sin. It's up to you as a parent to teach your child or grandchild that gay or trans is not the way God made thies people. Frankly they being a perfect creation of God has been tainted by the devil and society it self is being destroyed by the same. God gave us free will to choose to do the right thing. And if you deny him and live a sinful life. He will deny you. Even gays have the opportunity to turn to God and be healed from there taint turn away from that life style and live the way God intended.
No, Cassie, she did nothing to try to start an argument based on what she thinks. She just had a genuine question because D.G. gave her vague disapproval without stating which aspect of her message he/she disagreed with.
Hallelujah. GOD doesn't hate the person, HE hates the SIN.
Who's to say that being gay isn't part of God's plan? Who are we to tell our Creator how to do His job? Who are we to even assume that we know what God thinks?
Quoting the Bible to justify one's argument is fine, but as a means to justify one's false sense of superiority... that only harms the person who judges before God.
I'm guilty of that sin, as much as the Christians who judge me for being Pagan. It is what it is: the human imperfections of Being.
If God made us all in His own image, then God is pansexual. So I'll trust He knows what He's doing. It's not so important to forgive others for their sins, as it is to learn to forgive our own mistakes first.
Or, as RuPaul put it, "If you can't love yourself, then who the heck can love you?"
Well that explains a lot, Cassie, considering that folks claim that America is "God's Country" and a "Christian Country" while denying Him in their acts. Faith alone doesn't make you good in His eyes, you gotta keep your word too.
God doesn't make mistakes, He made us all in His image, He created everything in the Universe, and God loves all. So if GLBT people exist, it's because God wanted them to exist, not because He felt like bullying a bunch of creations.
Who are you to judge before the Judge of all men?
Well said!
Thank you! Dreamsinger!!
You know nothing of what God approves of. Since God made people this way, it IS his plan. As in nature, it is population control. Therefore you are the blasphemer here. Who are you to question God?
Yay!
yes be homosexual and not reproduce...the human race doesnt want you dum-dums in our gene pool. Go off and have your relations........I'm happy for you but I disagree. It GETS UGLY...SEX TRAFFICING...PORN...BLAHBLAHBLAH.........draw the line somewhere people.
normanstories the good news is nobody needs your permission to live their lives.
I had no idea my trafficker was a lesbian, normanstories. The fact she gave birth to a son and two daughters never once caused me to question her sexuality.
No, it is against the Lord out God Yeshua of Nazareth the living God
Wrong
Only if you're a Christian.
True again Susan Colmenares! so many here assume that we are all Christians and or that we all MUST accept and live by the bible. This country is suppose to be founded on religious freedom... but some how that gets passed over.
Correct, Carol. I am not a Christian, yet I incorporate Christ's lessons as my own because he's not the only one who teaches them. Many before that particular Buddha spoke of strength being a show of compassion for the vulnerable, not of violence against them. Many before him spoke of the act of forgiving others being an act of forgiving ourselves. And many more before him spoke of the need to be the change you seek in this world.
And they all believed that the choices you make will either be your salvation or your condemnation, but it's only by your own hand.
As Susan pointed out, Yeshua is only one of the Nine Billion Names of God (apologies and credit to Arthur C. Clarke)
This article should really be viewed by everyone! http://www.eatliver.com/gay-marriage-is-wrong/
Lol!
That website is a load of crap!
(And it should be kept in mind that this entire article in the link is sarcastic, for anyone who has missed that)
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone that didn't notice the sarcasm.
Omg I too overlooked the sarcasm! I’m sorry, I normally enjoy sarcastic humor but was so busy being upset with people gay bashing I missed it. Thank you for you attempt to shine some much needed light.
Peace
I think Disney would be better off introducing a new character if they want to embrace the modern world.
With a new charater they will have a blank canvas on which to be much more creative.
I totally agree G.Z.J. If they would like to make the push to create a LGBT main character (in my opinion they should), it needs to be a new character. In my opinion I'm on the side of making her an independent character without a significant other. This will ease the path of showing what's considered unconventional female roles and allow other characters to strengthen female roles, and it would be by an already accepted character.
Why not? Hmm...because we shouldn't go and push a sexual theme onto childrens' minds perhaps?
If not "Frozen" figurines, there's always comic book and "Overwatch" figurines. Back when I was a kid, it was Farrah Fawcett and Cindy Crawford posters, but same deal.
And how exactly is that the same deal, Dreamsinger?
I do understand what you're saying, Ben. But what kids lack in awareness of the world, they more than make up for in curiosity. Telling them no, and making a big angry fuss about it, is only going to make kids want to emulate Elsa more. It normalizes Elsa's sexual orientation and lifestyle, and makes it "cool" and acceptable.
If you want the problem to go away, you ignore it.
May you have the success you deserve, Ben.
"I do understand what you’re saying, Ben."
Clearly you don't.
"But what kids lack in awareness of the world, they more than make up for in curiosity."
So what you're saying is that if kids are curious about something, we need to teach it to them? Well, what if a little kid saw someone smoking and became curious of smoking? Should we teach them to smoke? And what if a kid became curious about graphically violent movies if he got his hands on one? Should we encourage that kid to watch more blood and guts? Should we teach our 5-year-old to masturbate if we catch him playing with his little dick? Or course not.
"Telling them no, and making a big angry fuss about it, is only going to make kids want to emulate Elsa more. It normalizes Elsa’s sexual orientation and lifestyle, and makes it “cool” and acceptable."
If they're told they're no when they can't, no it won't make them want to emulate her more. Eventually they'll learn to listen. And a preschooler experiencing sexual activities is at all not normal and you know it. So I'm afraid your statement, "It normalizes Elsa’s sexual orientation and lifestyle, and makes it “cool” and acceptable" needs a little bit more work?
"If you want the problem to go away, you ignore it."
And how's that gonna stop children from being subjected to something they're too young to know about if you're not doing something about it? Anyway, would you've done the same thing, Dreamsinger? For instance, if you had a problem with what I'm saying now, would you have ignored it? Because you're certainly not working your way towards it.
Lol, and you say all those other people are living a lie.
Cheers.