Should schools be banned from teaching evolution because it's tantamount to a religion?
That’s what one family is arguing in a lawsuit filed against the Indiana State Board of Education, the Indiana Secretary of Education, and their local school district last year. Through the lawsuit, the family hopes to force schools to take all mention of evolution out of public school science classrooms.
What was their argument, and what did the courts say?
Is Evolution Indoctrination?
The lawsuit was filed by Indiana parents Jason and Jennifer Reinoehl, who say that teaching evolution is a violation of the Establishment Clause of the Constitution because it endorses “the atheist religion”.
They argue that the state’s science curriculum – which mandates the teaching of evolution – is nothing less than religious indoctrination for Indiana schoolchildren.
“Penn High School teaches, in accordance with Indiana Department of Education guidelines, the state-sponsored, atheistic, religious Theory of Evolution,” reads the lawsuit. The defendants caused “pain and suffering” to the Reinoehl family by forcing their children “to learn and cite as truth religious origin stories that were different from those in which they believe in.”
“[Their daughter Sarah was] taught the atheist Theory of Evolution as if it were scientific truth,” the lawsuit reads, which goes “against her religious beliefs as a Christian.”
Science or Faith
The 35-page lawsuit not only frequently calls evolution a religion, but repeatedly casts doubt on its overall scientific veracity, arguing that evolution is “inherently religious, not scientific, in nature.”
The lawsuit calls into question everything from the fossil record to carbon dating in its effort to debunk evolution, and the Reinoehls even argue that evolution was once “taught alongside eugenics” as proof it should be removed from school textbooks.
But the main thrust of the lawsuit is that evolution is just as much of a religion as any other faith. And if other religions can’t be taught in schools, neither should evolution. The lawsuit continues:
“Evolution is a non-scientific belief, made in opposition to the known, tested, and observed laws of science. It bestows upon ‘nature’ both intelligence and supernatural power to select and discern one animal from another. Evolution is inherently a religious origin myth, argument, or assertion that falls outside the realm of science. It is neither scientific nor a testable theory in the scientific sense.”
What Did The Courts Say?
A judge ruled that teaching evolution does not constitute a violation of the Establishment Clause because the lawsuit failed to establish that evolution and atheism are religions.
In her ruling, Federal District Court Judge Sarah Evans Barker wrote that “[the courts] find that Plaintiffs have failed to allege an Establishment Clause violation here,” quoting the 1982 ruling in McLean v. Arkansas Bd. of Ed. which found that “it is clearly established in the case law, and perhaps also in common sense, that evolution is not a religion and that teaching evolution does not violate the Establishment Clause.”
“Because Plaintiffs are unable to plausibly allege that teaching evolution in public schools establishes a religion, their Establishment Clause claim necessarily fails as a matter of law and must be dismissed,” the ruling concludes.
Fight Not Over
It’s unclear at this time if the Reinoehls will appeal the case. But what is clear is they are not alone in this belief. These sentiments can be found in online posts, for example:
And then there are more formal opposition groups like the Institute for Creation Research (ICR), which argues that "evolution is a religion, not science." The ICR writes on its website:
"Many leading evolutionists have recognized the essentially 'religious' character of evolutionism. Even though they themselves believe evolution to be true, they acknowledge the fact that they believe it! 'Science', however, is not supposed to be something one 'believes'. Science is knowledge—that which can be demonstrated and observed and repeated. Evolution cannot be proved, or even tested; it can only be believed."
The group employs its own scientific team, which it claims can poke holes in the theory of evolution. "ICR scientists have spent more than 50 years researching scientific evidence that refutes evolutionary philosophy and confirms the Bible’s account of a recent and special creation," the website states.
What is your reaction? Do you buy the argument that evolution is a kind of religion, or is that simply a ploy to advance creationist beliefs?
152 comments
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Linda P Dettler
Evolution is in theory true, but I think it differs from God's human. I believe God put Adam and Eve in the Garden as humans as we think of them I think evolution is also true for certain humans. If you look at the evolution tables and pictures, the end pictures cannot be the "white" maile or female that they show, but darker skinned humans like Africans and Aborigious tribes. They have the same head shape and many of them still have the slanted forheads and wide noses. I believe at one point in history, both human species met, mated and made the commonality of humans we know today. Just my thoughts.
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Taurence Duvael Chisholm
There was a time when our ancestors knew the names of most of Angels in the High Holy Heavens nowadays we barely know the names of 4 or 5 Angels and if we do know some names then its considered myth talk and that's a subtle way of adding doubt!!
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Taurence Duvael Chisholm
Some are saying teach that the supernatural is unbelievable and teach that the basics of nature is not super and therefore science is not super hence science is just basic nature. Now that's fine for some ppl cause that's all they can handle - some ppl can't handle life goin beyond the basic natural and that's fine to stay stuck in that mode. But we're able to use our imaginations and to dream a little further for a reason but science can't go there - using our imagination to relate to the Spiritual Realm is frowned upon and that's OK...it has nothing to do with how we treat ppl!!
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Taurence Duvael Chisholm
We ALL know the truth by how it feels we know our thoughts and whether they're positive or negative we know our words and we know our actions. What we don't know is our true nature - we really don't know how kind nice and forgiving we can be. Most Americans are too competitive and too hard hearted to understand their true nature. Some ppl think I'm upset and maybe too passionate but actually I'm cool and in control - I just know how to express myself with no fear filled with confidence. My BLACK father taught me this: if you treat other good good things will come back to you and as 57 yr old black man from the streets of Baltimore I believe in that wholeheartedly. I live on the edge and I can handle that - some ppl can't - but really I'm not afraid of treating ppl good and I hope no one reading these words have that fear. Yeah I went off track some...but so what...I got all my words out and now I'm good to go solo!! Most ppl don't know what that means but peace and hair grease I'm OUT!!
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Rev Ned
Teach science not superstitions.
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Taurence Duvael Chisholm
God is a Consuming Fire that dwells in Unapproachable Light, when He moves He emits fire and it burns, God is ineffable marvelous and terrifying and woe to be in the Hands of the Almighty. Our thoughts and our ways are not like God's, God is Love God is Spirit and God is Super Patient which is something that we're NOT!! Most ppl are fickled, frivolous and flippant and most of us don't like the authority of the truth, we think we know better. There's a way that seems right to us humans but in the end it leads to destruction or more specifically disagreements and animosity - who don't know this?
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Michael Sledge
Again free will, we are entitled to belive in what we like. The courts take this away allowing such nonsense lawsuits. If you don't like the theory, turn and walk away. It's not "YOUR WORLD" ITS EVERYONES
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Taurence Duvael Chisholm
Most of our modern day scientists have the God complex but none of them can talk like God!! God says: I am self eternal and self sustaining (For a moment of eternity) I was alone with just My Thought My Thought is My Counselor. My Wisdom and My Word are made, if I turn away My Face ALL will be destroyed. I have seen how ALL have come before Me and trembled in fear. God said: I create something out of nothing and I speak My Angels into existence and I created My Humans with My Little Finger, there is no difference between My Angels and My Humans. Now know this - NO human can even think up those words to say about themselves so God knows what He knows and we can't touch that. So let us humble ourselves and understand that God is ABSOLUTE and we are His Children inside His Oneness...skin color is an illusion!!
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Taurence Duvael Chisholm
As I stated before if there's an oral tradition a written history and archeology evidence then most likely its true. Hence the evidence of human giants carries far more weight than a theory that has no oral tradition no written history and no archeology evidence. The existence of giants refutes that false theory and that hurts the feeling our modern day scientific atheist. If they admit to the existence of human giants then it really shows that the words of our ancestors are true and the archeology evidence of human giants that they continually try to hide is actually TRUE AND THAT HURTS THEIR FRAGILE EGO!!!
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Rudolph M Garza
“Science is agnostic, meaning that it does not have a particular metaphysical view.”
However, I did get to know a theoretical physicist that believes the universe is a “network” the “learns” and is alive. That is what I call “a leap in faith”. I don’t know if there are more like him or if this “belief” of his will catch on.
Lawyers have their own definitions of “faith” and “religion”. Would love to see what they say.
As for me, I do not mind science. It has its benefits, after all.
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Taurence Duvael Chisholm
This is the elephant in the room...the main reason it was accepted so quickly is b/c it was another way to prove African inferiority by saying if humans come out of Africa then the Africans come from apes and Europeans are higher humans which led to eugenics. The Europeans didn't like how the Greeks gave the Ethiopians such glowing compliments. They called the Ethiopians blameless peaceful ppl tall and beautiful and a place where the gods reside. Those compliments don't match the false narrative of ape like savages with no human soul but that theory fits their narrative perfectly. Plus it served another purpose which is to divide ppl and create more disagreement about God and the Spiritual Realm. Two can't walk together unless they agree and as long as we don't agree we never can become the United States and therefore the American experiment is a failure!!
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Glenn G Caskey JR
Evolution is a fact.
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Taurence Duvael Chisholm
We Americans don't know what peace looks like b/c we've never seen it and peaceful leaders produce peaceful citizens. Darwin was surprised how quickly his theory was accepted...what science has done was manipulate and fabricate information to try to create the evidence to make the theory true. We live in the lower realm where hate lies and negativity can win sometimes. The American hate system is so immature bitter and powerful that most peacemakers are silenced or attacked in America and that's not scientific that's social. The theory of evolution comes right out of the American hate system where they try to prove that human intelligence is equal to God's intelligence...which we know is: NOT!!!
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
you seem to be mixing up a LOT of different things, I might first suggest lavender scent for calming
anyway, evolution comes about from a number of people observing, discovering and asking many, many questions, mostly none having to do with goD or religion (and to which religion is and was opposed, as evidenced here by...some)
science, as I'm learning here, appears to really upset those most closely tied to their religious beliefs. if one looks calmly at the responses here, one can tell who is highly agitated, not just by what they write, but how they write it.
people need to understand that the bibble is a collection of man-made stories collected from tribal myths and long lasting superstitions repeated around the campfires until people forgot they were just silly stories and started to actually believe in them
it is sad what religion has done to people, even here at the fairly civilized ULC forum, people come in all upset about other religions, other sexual orientations, other beliefs. and they are always of a similar form; radical, some might say terroristic, many would agree they are one-minded and extremely intolerant of other ideas.
so sad that people burn up over things that are so simply and comical
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Angelyn Joy Krout
It's science, plain and simple. These people probably just don't subscribe to evolution. Evolution is based on facts, not religion. Religion is mostly faith-based.
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NLilly
Evolution is just a belief system from some twisted, ungodly person; whose mindset is surely alienated from the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY. /
My answer to banning the Holy Bible in Public Schools? Absolutely Not! The Holy Bible IS very Encouraging and Spirit uplifting; and allows the unrepentant sinner to find his/her pathway to the ALMIGHTY GOD through CHRIST JESUS in Peace, Love, Patience, and Understanding! And it also Helps to keep the repenting sinner closer to GOD in CHRIST JESUS. It also gives us Guidance in our Spiritual Man and Conscience to refuse the evil and all unrighteousness, and to do good and to keep thyself Pure and walking in Faith and Love. AMEN JESUS! HALLELUYAH! ♥ ♥
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Michael Hunt
Evolution is a scientific theory subjected to rigorous scrutiny by other scientists to test if the theory holds true. It's backed up by data, not blind faith.
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Taurence Duvael Chisholm
I wrote a paper on that theory in graduate school called "Fact or Faith"! No one has ever seen the missing link the actions of natural selection or the gradual change in species so that's clearly faith. As I mentioned before that theory is a new phenomenon and it follows the line of thinking that humans are getting smarter and more intelligent which isn't true at all. How we treat ppl determines intelligence therefore war like leaders create war like citizens and we Americans are super war like - we're the war gangsters. The American system of bitter hate as well as status fever has allowed a theory with NO real evidence to take hold and toss our emotions around. Why are human giants no longer a part of the American discourse? B/c it blows away that theory!! When God created the lower realm He said the time of refreshing has begun however after the evil spirits tampered with His creation we are now in a state of decay. God has cleansed us through the flood and next He will refine us through the use of fire and to all that God says: "Don't be afraid - I have seen how ALL have come before ME and trembled in fear." Seriously, who can really stand up against God?
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
graduate school for what, exactly?
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Linda Callagy
IT IS SCIENCE. IT IS NOT FAITH OR RELIGION.
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Deborah Jean Frankum Perkins
It is a Scientific Fact! IF SOMEONE DECIDES IT IS A RELIGION SO BE IT. Both
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Mrknowitall
Your delusional, there is a scientific observable law called the Second Law of Thermodynamics. There is no Evolution...Fact is there is only De-volution !
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
so why are organisms evolving? over millions of years of humans evolved, from small, tree climbing monkey-like mammals to the upright Homo sapiens. but according to you there is only de-volution so shouldn't we not be here at all? shouldn't there be no mammals, no birds, no dinosaurs, just everything de-volved back into pond scum. I mean, according to you
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Deborah Jean Frankum Perkins
Mrknowitall, Thank you for your opinion. Tadpole!
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Taurence Duvael Chisholm
If there's an oral tradition a written history and archeology evidence then most likely its true. Hence the evidence of human giants carries way more weight than a theory that has no oral tradition no written history and archeology evidence. The existence of giants refutes that phony theory and that hurts the feeling our modern day scientific atheist. If they admit to the existence of human giants then it really shows that the words of our ancestors are true and the archeology evidence of human giants that they continually try to hide is actually TRUE AND THAT HURTS THEIR FRAGILE EGO!!!
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Richard White
I think since the Bible says God fashioned man from the earth then man from mud seems like the way God made man. Evolution was just gods way of creating us. So in that way it is biblical but some teachers use evolution as proof against God thereby making enemies of the Christians. It's unfortunate.
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Paul C Holsombeck
Evolution is not a religion, it is a scientific theory. It changes and expands as human knowledge and understanding change and expand. It lacks dogma and a creation myth. Atheism on the other hand is certainly a religion, having a creation myth and using various scientific theories as its dogma.
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Geoffrey C. Olive
Atheism is not a religion any more than not believing that fairies live at the end of the garden! It’s just means not believing in any religion! I don’t believe the lies of Trump! That’s not a religion either! Why does anyone try to make the term mean something it isn’t?
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Farajallah Michael Yazbek
The only part of evolution I don't agree with is the evolution of man, or homo sapien. Genesis says God said, "Let us make man in our own image," meaning we were made separately from the others. And Genesis never says HOW God made the different species. The Theory Of Evolution and Genesis agree on the order of the creation of the species. And what made the species adapt and evolve in the first place? Just separate Man from the rest and evolution is, indeed, probable, as a tool God used for the creation of all the animals. If you look at the different evolutionary periods before man, there are five. Man was made on the 6th day, and God reserved the 7th (Sabbath) for relaxation and rest for man. Just read them together, think about the different eras and it all falls into place and makes Genesis possible in agreement with evolution.
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Farajallah Michael Yazbek
Oh, and by the way, no, evolution theory is NOT religion. It's a like any other tenet and belief in any religious sect or order. It's a tool, not an all-encompassing way of life.
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Mrknowitall
Darwin's theory is a religion based upon evidence never observed and the omitting of scientific laws we know to be true and tested mainly the second law of thermodynamics. In 2002 in the city of Orlando I litigated the requirement of teaching the theory of evolution to both my daughters who were in public school, they were both excused form learning and testing on the subject as being true ! The school board had no option other than to grant the exception that was argued solely on the basis of scientific fact, I don't know about now but in 2002 in the Orlando public school system you could not be exempt from learning curriculum based upon religious belief only. I am not a scientist so I enlisted the help of Dr. Joseph Mastropaolo, PHD Professor Emeritus Long Beach State University. With his help we proved scientifically to the board and their lawyers that the Theory of Evolution is devoid of facts and is not true, what does exist is the complete opposite, De-volution !
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
florida? lol why of course, florida, where education goes to die
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Michael Hunt
Dr. Joseph Mastropaolo has his degree in kinesiology not evolutionary science. He's a false authority on the subject. https://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/03/28/no-i-will-not-ever-debate-joseph-mastropaolo
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Freddie Lee Cosgrove III
This is insanity. This legal action should have been rejected when it was presented to the court. How long ago was the Scopes trial ? Does no one rememeber that the issue of belief vs and faith, versus science and inquiry, was discussed then, with a decisive outcome and tremendous fallout?
It takes nothing to have a belief. Anyone can awaken with a belief, inspired by a dream. No one is harmed, in being expeosed to facts. We are all supposed to use our intellect to reason; consider facts and determine whether we belive them to be true or false.
I understand the value of faith to many people. Faith and belief are powerful tools for many people in coping with the realities of life. Realities of life exist. If somone does not pay their rent for long enough, they violate the terms of their lease, and barring an intercession of funds from some benefactor, they will be evicted. An infected wound will fester and worsen, unless there is some intervention. Loss of control of a car, is likely to result in some degree of collision. An organism deprived of nutrients and water, will eventually starve and die. These are all realities. Faith can help to hope there is relief to them, but they remain real.
Anyone can have a belief about anything. That is one of the delights to belief, there are no boundaries. There is nothing to restrain belief, unlike reality. Anyone is free to choose what to believe, and some of their choices may result in their injury or death. It has happened.
Evolution exists, it is real. DNA is present in a rat and in humans. We may not fully understand the mechanisms of evolution, but just as we generally understand the mechanisms of the earth's rotation, we generally understand the process of evolution. If someone chooses not to believe, that's fine, but the state or any other body, has not harmed them, by having intruded on their belief.
Just because someone chooses to have an alternative belief, does not allow them to penalize society for their choice.
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Mrknowitall
Macro evolution exists...Micro evolution does not, there is a Yuge difference !
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
microevolution most certainly does exist, a good example is cockroaches becoming resistant to certain pesticides, along with plants resistant to herbicides and bacteria resistant to antibiotics.
or are you mixing up the two?
in which cast then, you would still be wrong
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Bruce Kevin Jones
I have gathered a completely different take upon the theory of evolution. Besides the fact that an unknown undergraduate with no standing among the professors at Dartmouth or where ever Darwin was a professor, because he simply plagiarized the work of the undergraduate.
The thinking was that there was no way in hell that an unknown writing a paper on the theory of evolution would get published or read by any of the faculty at all the colleges in England. So Darwin claimed he invented Evolution.
Now I stated all that to show that Darwin was never the authority upon his own 'science'.
Now we know that science has cloned sheep and other animals in experiments, the cloned copies don't live long but they live for a short period to study why they die so quickly after the process.
now the last point I wanted to place in my postulation: Rose Leaky found Homo Sapiens Sapiens footprints in the same level of ash layer as Australopithecus, or the first human. Rose's findings were buried because it flew in the face of established archaeology, Modern Man could not have been alive when the first Humans stood upright instead of walking like a monkey.
again another fossilized riverbed in Colorado shows a Homo Sapiens Sapiens walking his Tyrannosaurus Rex Pet Dinosaur down a beach, fossilized 65,000,000 years ago.
both of These examples are presented as existing in the Tome "from Atlantis to the Sphinx" of all sciences collated into one volume in 1998.
My postulation is this all these not Human and more like an Ape were exactly that cloning methods used to build slaves to do manual labor instead of the Humans doing the work. Proto-humans were invented in labs and tried out in the wild. Modern Humans from 65,000,000 years ago, (we did not evolve any more this is it for Humans), We developed along different lines than other sentint beings, we have a spirit and a soul where they do not, out evolution is in spirit not a body.
Humans I postulate are older than science wants to admit. Anyway the Bible can't know GOD'S time His time varies to mean more than what is said. I say it like that because God has a timeline that is seperate from ours. we live in linear time, one second after another another. God is in all time seconds both past and present as a spirit. That is the image we Humans are made in, God's Spiritual image, not a Hum,an body.
all the Cro-Magnons, Neanderthals and other offshoots were all genetic experiments in prehistory, before we had a war or had a catastrophe upset everything, so we had to start from scratch again and go the basic 6,000 years to modern era again All the 'other men' were experiments to make slaves for manual labor.
Humans are different we have a Spirit and a Soul, animals on Earth don't have a soul, they have a spirit but no soul. The Cro-Magnon, Neanderthal and the others did not have souls, because none of them were natural, they all were built in a laboratory. And for these reason is why there are so few skeletons of them, We did not make many, because they were all lousy slaves.
Now I have to point out the obvious, all other species alive on earth right now do not have the earlier version of that animal also still living. Only the evolved version.
So if Dolphins are evolved from killer dolphins, and Mastodons were alive up until the end of the last ice age. How come Mastodons are not walking around with Elephants? and there should be dolphins the size of killer whales still, because if we are descended from monkeys WHY ARE THERE STILL MONKEYS?
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Geoffrey C. Olive
Absolute nonsense! All life on this planet evolved from single cell life. Using BKJ’s logic there should be no single cell life now! He obviously hasn’t heard of bacteria, etc!
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
well BK Jones, you win the internet for today with that giant gas baggy thesis. you seem to be missing some significant information along the way.
human footprints walking alongside t rex?
there's just so much to unpack here.
who ever said dolphins evolved from killer dolphins? really?
as for mastodons, changing climate and being hunted by a new, much smarter animal, man
hominids and the apes descended from a common ancestor...9 million years ago (?) so we came from a common ancestor but not from monkeys. that idea came from the scopes monkey trial. how about that birds are actually dinosaurs
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Geoffrey C. Olive
Atheism has only one “belief” - that there are no gods! There are literally hundreds or more religions with one or to many different gods that claim they are right with no supporting scientifically acceptable evidence! Even christianity has more than one in god the father, god the son, and god the holy ghost (whatever that is?👻) The most logical argument is no god or gods! Until someone genuinely comes back from being dead to prove it one way or another, humanity will never know!
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Morgan Lewis Williams
Genesis never denied evolution, nor did it ever say that Adam and Eve were the first man and woman. Seth took a wife without it being called incest.
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Geoffrey C. Olive
Atheism has only one “belief” - that there are no gods! There are literally hundreds or more religions with one or to many different gods that claim they are right with no supporting scientifically acceptable evidence! Even christianity has more than one in god the father, god the son, and god the holy ghost (whatever that is?👻) The most logical argument is no god or gods! Until someone genuinely comes back from being dead to prove it one way or another, humanity will never know!
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Ronaldo
After reading this and similar articles, and some of the comments on them, I have come to the conclusion that very few have actually read Darwin's works on evolution. A lot of claims about what he said are flat out wrong. His books never said man evolved from apes or monkeys, nor did they ever state how life began, but these statements are often assigned to him, with some demanding proof of such from those who believe in the evolutionary theories.
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Cheryl
Hold on. Science has already found that the genetic leap to our modern human genome in the evolutionary cycle was NOT possible under normal evolutionary conditions. The unique alteration in the second layer could NOT have evolved naturally. Therefore, there was Some Other Hand at work in taking the basic genome to the level of genetically modern humans about 200,000 years ago. So, the question then is, Who created that genetic leap outside of the evolutionary cycle? Both evolution and creation were at work to a certain point. Then Someone stepped in. Darwin - zero, God - One.
And also, we need to keep in mind that our Master Teacher said to render unto Caesar (governments, schools, institutions) that which is Ceasar's and unto God that which is God's. So, there's no place in "public" schools for this discussion. Yes, churches have to remember this one before trying to wrap God into the syllabus before we become like some of the Middle East countries where crazy religious fervor rules just like in the Inquisition.
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Ronaldo
Science has been wrong before, and will be again. I recently read an article claiming that astronomers have found evidence that the universe cannot exist, and yet here it is. Some other works have made claims that some galaxies and/or stars are older than the universe, but offered no rational explanation as to how that could be. If something is, but our theories say otherwise, which is wrong, the fact that something exists, or the theory? On another note, since radical environmental events or other stressors tend to cause evolution, there are no "normal evolutionary conditions", because each one can be different from any other.
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Bruce Kevin Jones
I have a completely different idea, as posted below. Modern man invented all the ape-humans to become laboratory built slaves to do manual labor. instead of using ourselves, in prehistory, we tried building less than intelligent ape-humans. Every time tried, something happened, there were not that many made. bad batch was usually the problem.
there is evidence that Humans are evolved in a different direction than the physical. our evolution went into spirit, so that Humans are so different from all other lifeforms on Earth, the others have a spirit this is true, but none of them have the evolved spirit we call a soul that is completely separate from the spirit. Everything else including entities outside our Earth DON'T have a spirit soul because they evolved in only the physical body. Sure their technology is a million years ahead of us, but they all lack a soul, for all their supposed superiority to Humans.
Yes We can't think as fast or do all the amazing things they can, except we have a soul instead of only a spirit. showing that Humans evolved differently than the others, we evolved a higher spirit than anything except God. God made all them too, but only Humans have a soul.
anyway I extrapolated my theory off of the Tome Sir Colin Wilson compiled in 98. Humans are a tad older than science wants to admit. :)
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Rev. Michelle Love
Religion is defined as "the belief in and worship of a superhuman power or powers, especially a God or gods."
Atheism is defined as "a lack of belief or a strong disbelief in the existence of a God or any gods."
Darwinism is defined as being "the theory of the evolution of species by natural selection advanced by Charles Darwin."
With all that being said, I believe the judge was correct in his decision because atheism is not a religion and Darwinism is merely a theory.
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Ramon de Venecia Josue
We need the Bible, but we don't need "religion" to make us better or be morally good. having said that Faith and Religion become synonymous. Besides according to John 3:16 "Believe" not have faith. And according to Matt. 23:23 Faith is of the Law. So again the Created or Creation needs the EXACT WORD of the CREATOR. Never Religion. The LORD did not teach nor practice any religion including Judaism.
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Bruce Kevin Jones
Yes. I will have to explain something you may not have knowledge of. the Diet of nicea changed the entire Bible in 323 AD to prevent the masses from finding out the truth; the church is not required, Jesus gathered people together and did a sermon; but a physical church everybody was supposed to pay money to maintain was not originally required.
the Bible we have today is rewritten from the 'changed' version.
Most of the Bible has to be re-edited by each pastor as you read it, just know that all explanations in Jesus time had to do with the common knowledge of Astrology, and that everyone was reincarnated, but started out with a clean slate each time, and magic was also removed, only the Pope was allowed to do 'miracles'.
So when you read the magical texts of Jesus Scripture realize you need to put back in the extra words that Justinian removed for tax reasons. Frivolous reasons, he wanted no excuses for Romans to have to pay high taxes, so he changed the Bible by decree.
also Jesus time was totally misogynist, women had virtually no rights. So IF a woman rode a Donkey she was Rich, and if she also wore Blue, (not Lapis Lazuli - which makes a pale blue dye) that also meant she was rich, because only rich people could afford indigo dye from southern India!
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Michele Marie Miles
Evolution is science. It has nothing to do with religion. If the religious fanatics want everything they deem atheistic or anti-god, then they would only be teaching the bible to children as everything could be skewed that way. This is where it is up to parents to help their children learn what is and is not and to have discussions with their children about their beliefs as a family. It is not up to the schools to do this. Parents are just becoming lazy and want the schools to do everything. Learning starts at home and if you want your children to grow up in a bible based home, it is up to you to help them understand that the entire world is not that way and guide them to the faith you want them to learn. Jeez.
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Daniel Gray
it is not a science, its a THEORY as it has never been proved. If it has then were are the transitional species?
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Farajallah Michael Yazbek
Actually, they ARE proving evolution via DNA samples of things we have in hand from the ancient fossils that are constantly being found. Man will NOT have another ancestor because God made us separate and in his image, as he says. Theory IS science proven. Hypotheses are not proven, but developed based on evidence in hand.
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Michael Hunt
It's called scientific theory, Daniel. LOL
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Thomas J Kasprik
Everyone is born Atheist Teaching a child faith based on one religion is indoctrination
It took me years to unlearn religion
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Wayne M. Delia
Atheism is certainly a religion. I use my house as an atheist church. But when I apply to the IRS for my religious property and income tax exemptions, they seem to think I'm Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs, for some reason, and they deny my rightful exemption. Am I being religiously persecuted?
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Farajallah Michael Yazbek
Are you aware that atheists recognize God? You must mean you're an agnostic. There's a difference. Agnostics don't believe there is a god. Atheists don't believe in any god, but don't deny the existence of a god. I prefer to believe in one God, Jehovah, and in his son, who became man so man could be more like God. I would rather believe there IS God and be wrong than not believe there is a god and be wrong. I lose nothing. However, atheists and agnostics, if you're wrong, lose everything.
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Wendy Irene Copeland
Personally, I BELIEVE that a creator started original life. I ACCEPT that evolution has continued that life, as we see evolution all around us. I myself have mutations in some genes that cause a disease process that can now be inherited. I have faith in God AND believe science to be what we know at this time. However, it is my personal belief and I would not want to force my personal belief on anyone. Schools should teach facts as contained in science. Churches should teach and follow faith as contained in their holy book. Kep the two separate.
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Steven Ferrell
The couple is correct, it is teaching a religion against God.
If one is taught, then Creation should also be taught.For those who wish to think they came from monkeys, you probably did. I believe the Bible and that God made man and woman and that is where I came from.
I have been to and taken part in 5 autopsies and I can say after seeing the insides of a person, after hold a brain, a heart, lungs, etc. in my hands, these bodies did not just happen.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
Steven, creationism is fake science and is simply the bibble dressed differently.
We didn't so much come from monkeys as from a common ancestor. Which is why monkeys are still here with us, many in fact here in ULC denying their evolutionary path.
I'm sure your last sentence wows a lot of people but come one, man, you held body parts, so what. Based on what (and how) you've written I have to assume your knowledge of how all those parts work, and how they developed and evolved is still a mystery to you.
As for where you came from, that would be the incestuous relationships between Noah, Mrs. Noah their children, nieces, nephews, grandchildren etc, all cross-breeding with each other like, well so many incestuous monkeys, from whom you descended
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Bruce Kevin Jones
Actually you are completely wrong since none of the other original genus are still alive in other 'species' family trees.
Are there any Mastodons walking around with Elephants, or maybe some Wholly Rinos bouncing around with other Rino?
. and both of us know Darwin plagiarized an underclassman's idea and he did not invent 'evolution' this was why he could not explain it. He got back from his trip on the Beagle with nothing to show for the trip and happened upon an undergraduate that wanted top publish a paper. But being the underclassman was NOT a tenured professor like Darwin it was unlikely anyone would take stock in the Evolution idea, So we both know Darwin put his name on the paper and used the findings from the Beagle expedition nowe that a scientist made use of the samples Darwin brought back but could not figure out why they seemed connected.
anyway Yes we are descended from Monkeys and that is why there are no monkeys any more because we evolved. No Mastadons either or whollt Rinocerous, only the moren versions NONE of the originals.
Now to be obvious but to postulate that Monkeys are not our ancestors, we developed differently than from apes. animals on earth all have evolved bodies, and a spirit that quickly dissipates after death, unless the animal evolved slightly to linger.
human ghosts can linger longer, about two hundred years through parapsychology examples, but that is because humans evolved a soul, Monkeys don't HAVE one. only ONE other being has a Soul. we are evolved from THAT being, not Monkeys that don't HAVE a soul!
this is why there are Monkeys, because Humans are NOT descended from them.
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Charles Paul Biederman
Evolution is not a religion it is science GOD created all things
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Donald Michael Woodward
Scientific testing has not produced the needed evidence to explain how life itself began. We cannot create life, and evolution only shows the historical descent of a life form, not the mechanism by which this is accomplished, such as natural selection. It is possible that evolution was the method chosen by God to ensure the continuation and development of life.
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Alan Jones
I think that there is a danger of confusing Science with Belief.
People can believe what the scientific process reveals as testable, verifiable and current hypotheses and theories.
People can believe in their subjective experiences and “revealed truths” which need not be testable or verifiable.
I have faith in the scientific method but my personal beliefs may include ideas that I know are outside the remit of science.
The material world is the realm of science, the spiritual is the realm of experience, One realm is objective and measurable - the other is subjective and may or may not be open to scientific scrutiny.
Heaven forbid we end up in a situation where beliefs need to be open to laboratory testing.
Science is Science with objective methodology, Faith is Faith with subjective, personal relevance.
Alan /|\
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Bruce Kevin Jones
I wish you would not combine things. "Faith" is hoping something is true. "Belief" is knowing it is true. Please do stop confusing that the two are interchangeable, they are NOT. Faith is flimsy, Belief is solid, like a fact. That is the difference. Yes both are used as the ideology behind most religions. faith is usually used all the time, belief is more difficult to manifest in example because it has to do with what you feel inside to know it to be true. faith you hear it is true, Belief you know it is true!
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James C Clements
You have my vote!
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Aaron Shayda
Evolution is not a religion. Why do people believe that religion and evolution can’t co-exist? I believe that schools should teach reading, writing and math but that’s it. Tax dollars shouldn’t be wasted on anything controversial in schools.
Beyond that, it should be up to the parents to teach. Parents need to up their game. This is what you signed on for having kids.
I don’t see why God creating humans isn’t in line with the theory of evolution. God maybe created evolution to allow humans to adapt to climates, food sources, diseases, etc. All part of the BiG plan. So what if we started as apes. We evolved into his likeness as he planned.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
I was a bit interested until I read "And Evolution says we "evolved" from Apes. Ok then why are there still apes?' We evolved from a common ancestor and are closely related to chimps and bonobos, sharing about 98.7% DNA.
It is thought that around 200,000 to 300,000 years ago Homo sapiens branched off from the great apes. And here we are, and here the apes are.
There are intermediate forms not just of Homo sapiens but of horses, hippos, dinosaurs to birds, and many other. the old saw that there are no intermediate examples is another badly built ruse by the kkkristofascists to deny science and scientific facts and instead reserve the claim of truth to their silly 6000 year old, 7 days-a-making, flat earth nonsense.
Canis familiaris descended from a gray wolf ancestor, DNA shows about a 99% similarity. in other words we are in effect WATCHING Canis familiaris change from a wolf to a wolf-like dog and eventually to a separate species. there are changes in the jaws of dogs that differ distinctly from those of wolfs. and this was long before people started selective breeding for mini-poodles and dachshunds. human dog (and chicken) breeding mimic a bit of how nature works. and how evolution works.
since everything you wrote was without a doubt Ctrl/C directly from that stupid answers in genesis website. you're just repeating the same old incorrect and intentionally misleading tripe without the knowledge that backs up the actual science.
why do you people insist that your pretend religion and clown god is real but nature, natural science and evolution is false? that desperate to force-feed your religious beliefs down the world's throat?
Oh and BTW, according to the US Supreme Court (I googled it you know) atheism are NOT religions, it is another one of those specious arguments you and your ilk like to promulgate.
"The Supreme Court has recognized atheism as equivalent to a “religion” for purposes of the First Amendment on numerous occasions, most recently in McCreary County, Ky. v. American Civil Liberties Union of Ky., 545U.S. 844, 125 S.Ct. 2722, 162 L.Ed.2d 729 (2005). The Establishment Clause itself says only that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,” but the Court understands the reference to religion to include what it often calls “nonreligion.” "
and further:
"...the Court has unambiguously concluded that the individual freedom of conscience protected by the First Amendment embraces the right to select any religious faith or none at all.
Id. at 52-53, 105 S.Ct. 2479. In keeping with this idea, the Court has adopted a broad definition of “religion” that includes non-theistic and atheistic beliefs, as well as theistic ones. Thus, in Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488, 81 S.Ct. 1680, 6 L.Ed.2d 982, it said that a state cannot “pass laws or impose requirements which aid all religions as against non-believers, and neither can [it] aid those religions based on a belief in the existence of God as against those religions founded on different beliefs.”
re: chaplaincy in the military, you're conflating two issues; one that a chaplain has to be from a religious organization and two; being allowed to perform chaplain duty in the military as an atheist means atheism is a religion.
chaplaincy is about tending to the emotional needs of military members whether it's an extension of an established ('recognized' (see: The Satanic Temple TST) religion or simple as an outreach from a humanist organization that can achieve the same (or better, really) goal(s).
so the supremes did not recognize atheism as a religion but rather recognized that atheists can be refused chaplaincy simply because the are atheists, therefore for this purpose (as well as others) the court recognized that they are similar in how the law seems them.
now why would you believe that because a family can request a grave marker that signifies the deceased's belief in something other than religion that it means the SC has declared it a religion? you appear to not be reading between the lines but rather, skipping lines as it suits your argument.
so everything you wrote (to which I am responding to) i unequivocally wrong, misinformed, misleading or intentionally applied to try and prove something 'special' about your religion
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Daniel Gray
Yea sure JJ, and again we have almost as many DNA as a Dolphin. So are you now going to try and tell us we evolved from a Dolphin?
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Bruce Kevin Jones
Chromosomes, we nearly are identical to 7% of the Species on Earth through Chromosomes, Deoxyribonucleac Acid is a different coding altogether Most Rna does not jump species unless Fauci helps it along.
Chromosomes are nearly identical but DNA is drastically different, one species to the next.
but umm I have to say this since no Mastadons are walking around with elephants, and no giant killer whate sized Cretaceous Dolphins swim around at Sea World either. So if therte are Monkeys why do you want to believe we are descended from them? No Mastadons, No giant Dolphins...! Humans are NOT descended from Monkeys, but for a different reason that you are ignoring its blatant presence. We are NOT descended from Monkeys.
here is why: Monkeys lack a soul, Humans have a soul. We are descended through Evolution of the SPIRIT, our physical bodies are almost like everything else except HUMANS HAVE A SOUL AND MONKEYS DON'T!
So similar to;yes, but evolved from; no. We are Evolved from a completely different being than monkeys!
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Daniel Gray
really? sort of like you claiming that birds evolved from Dinosaurs when even experts in the field no say that is utter BS.
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Daniel Gray
No its not. The peppermill moth in England is a fine example. Evolutionists swore that the two moths in question were the same species. Sadly for them it was found they were two completely different species. And Evolution says we "evolved" from Apes. Ok then why are there still apes?
Jeffrey Schwartz, professor of anthropology at the University of Pittsburgh has stated "it was and still is the case that the formation of a new species, by any mechanism, has never been observed."
Darwin has stated "transitional forms leading from the less to the more evolved have never been found in the fossil records, and if evolution was fact, there should be a plethora of them."
Famed Evolutionist Leslie Orgel, has stated "neither proteins nor nucleic acids could have arisen without the other,. And so, at first glance, one might have to conclude that life could never, in fact, have originated by chemical means. The precise events giving rise to the RNA world remain unclear. . . . investigators have proposed many hypotheses, but evidence in favor of each of them is fragmentary at best." In laymens terms this means Evolution is a theory.
There isnt any clue as to how the one-celled organisms of the primordial world could have evolved into the vast array of complex multi-celled invertebrates of the Cambrian period. Even dogmatic evolutionist admits that: The Cambrian explosion was the most remarkable and puzzling event in the history of life and they have no idea why it happened overnight in the history of the world.
The main scientific reason why there is no evidence for evolution in either the present or the past (except in the creative imagination of evolutionary scientists) is because one of the most fundamental laws of nature precludes it. The law of increasing entropy -- also known as the second law of thermodynamics -- stipulates that all systems in the real world tend to go "downhill," as it were, toward disorganization and decreased complexity. This law of entropy is, by any measure, one of the most universal, best proved laws of nature. It applies not only in physical and chemical systems, but also in biological and geological systems -- in fact, in all systems, without exception. No exception to the second law of thermodynamics has ever been found -- not even a tiny one. Like conservation of energy (the "first law"), the existence of a law so precise and so independent of details of models must have a logical foundation that is independent of the fact that matter is composed of interacting particles.
Oh and BTW, according to the US Supreme Court, Atheism/Humanism ARE Religions which is why they ordered the US Military to allow Pastors and houses of worship for these, as well as their symbols being placed in Military Cemeteries.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
and finally, no, the peppered moth is NOT two species. it is ONE specie with two forms or variations, one is light colored with black spots and the other is black with white spots (melanic version). Either can breed with the other and produce fertile, viable offspring.
one more egregious attempt to pull a fast one from ?answers in genesis?, where science goes to die
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Daniel Gray
Sorry JJ but completely wrong.
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Rev. BH
Another statement of "fact", DG. but no references, backup, or sources. The word 'wrong" alone will not suffice in argument or debate.
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Asa William Sprague, II
Just a couple things here: Darwin did not say "transitional forms leading from the less to the more evolved have never been found in the fossil records,." In fact, the fossil record DOES include many examples of transitional features, providing an abundance of evidence for evolutionary change over time.
Also: Leslie Orgel's statement that "...one might have to conclude that life could never, in fact, have originated by chemical means," relates to the theory of Abiogenesis and has no bearing on the theory of Evolution.
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Daniel Gray
yes he did Sprauge, read Origin of the species and see for yourself.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Are you using AI to write your responses?
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Rev. BH
"Many leading evolutionists have recognized the essentially 'religious' character of evolutionism ... That quoted paragraph under "Science of Faith" above, is well written, convincing, but tricky. Mainly, a play on the word "believe". As in science believes in evolution, therefore its only a belief, aka a religion. Had it been stated scientists accept evolution, (as they do), the whole paragraph falls apart. Saying I believe in love, does not make love a religion. Saying I believe in being nice, does not make niceness a religion. A nice try, but tricky lawsuit, yet silly.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
From the lawsuit:
“Evolution is a non-scientific belief, made in opposition to the known, tested, and observed laws of science. It bestows upon ‘nature’ both intelligence and supernatural power to select and discern one animal from another. Evolution is inherently a religious origin myth, argument, or assertion that falls outside the realm of science. It is neither scientific nor a testable theory in the scientific sense.”
This paragraph clearly shows the limp and willfully ignorant attempt to define evolution, science and the scientific method. This was never a 'tricky lawsuit', just another lame attempt by the kkkristofascist agenda task force trying yet another method to get their nonsensical beliefs accepted and included in public school curiculum
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James Riggle-Johnson
Religion at its core always comes back to a creator of some kind. Whether that’s one or multiple creators or elements and amino acids or whatever, there is always a creator. Of course, there is the Church of Scientology which is neither religion nor science, but alien spirits or something. Science on the other hand is always changing based on what new facts or methods come into play.
Most religions teach a God/Gods created everything. I do question how human civilization could have come from two individuals. I seriously doubt that could be possible but it’s a story in the bible and people believe it.
I wonder why both a creator and evolution can’t exist together. The bible says God created the heavens and the earth in six days, but what is one day to a God? Is it possible that God caused the big bang and caused the right elements and proteins to come together and create life. And that life evolved over billions of years? Why does it always have to be one or the other?
I’ve said this before… God did not write the bible. Men were trying to bring meaning to their lives and answer the question why we are here. These were power hungry men trying to control the lives of others. I think God, if they exist is beyond our comprehension. Neither male nor female but something more. Just my two cents.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
"I think God, if they exist is beyond our comprehension." what you may be thinking of as 'goD' is actually just natural processes that are found throughout the universe. it makes no sense to ascribe natural phenomenon to an unnatural, or supernatural being. really, it simply makes no sense to make up a goD rather than accept and marvel at the wonders of the universe
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James Riggle-Johnson
JJ, I was not trying to advocate the existence of god. I was making a reference to how Christianity and other religions are so set in the ways that they cannot accept science at all.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
ok, got it
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Daniel Gray
Ok then, explain the Big Bang. people who believe in evolution also believe in this, even though NASA and the JWT has shown galaxies and black holes that by all rules of physics and science should not exist but they do and by using the red shift as a basis, these clearly show they were in existence less then 200 million years after your Big bang. Which by Astronomers claims that is impossible as galaxies take billions of years to come together. And as any expert in explosives will tell you, you dont make a circular shape from a single explosion. All you have to do to see this is fact is take a match and light it and show me where the smoke makes shapes like that. Then the big bang is fake anyway as a bedrock law of science and that is Newtons 1st law of Thermodynamics (an object at rest will stay at rest, and an object in motion will stay in motion unless acted upon by an outside source" Now since everything was supposed to be condensed into a infinitely small object, what exactly was the outside source? Am I saying it was God? Nope. But it just proves science wrong. And if science is wrong on this, what makes you think they are not wrong on evolution?
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James Riggle-Johnson
Science is always willing to say as discoveries are made, we must adjust our theories and hypotheses. Science is only as good as our knowledge at that particular time. Science is always open to reevaluating their interpretations. The more we learn the more we know.
With religion it’s we know our faith, end of story, no interpretation needed. Case closed. God, devil, heaven & hell exists. End of discussion. They are not even open to interpretation of translations of the bible. They cannot explain why some books were included when others were not. The earth is older than 6 or 7 thousand years old, but we have some teaching dinosaurs and man used to live together. Woman was created from the rib of man.
There is scientific proof that evolution is real. Science deals with facts based on what we know at that time. Religion deals in scripture and faith that is never changing and not open to interpretation.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
most recent theory, tired light. google it, you might learn a thing or two
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arawngraalrd
Go back to the Bhagavad Gita, where Sankhye Yoga, the foundation of Science, is recommended as a religion... Teaching Evolution as a belief, is the error. Public School, is the other error.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
I will be the first to raise my and ask; What.......??????? None of what you wrote makes sense so either explain further or include some citations
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Daniel Todd Kamm
But it's just my theory...!
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Daniel Todd Kamm
So someone is wasting whatever minutes they have remaining of their lives, other peoples lives, and tax payers' dollars on this? The greatest evidence yet that modern humans have, indeed, evolved ... from .... And some can de-evolve as well! Peace...tk
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Ealdormon Piparskeggr Robinson
I think Gregor Mendel would have a different view than the plaintiffs.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
would he, or they, appreciate the irony?
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Robert Gagnon
Iv'e always heard it called Darwin's theory of evolution. A theory is not a religion, although someone could use a theory as a base for a religion. But then it would be referred to as the church or religion of evolution. Daughter Sarah will just have to suffer through these lessons and bear the brunt of the same information every other kid learns in school.
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James Mounts
Until you can show me God, religion will remain a theory, no more or less valid than any other.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
while I agree, you appear to misunderstand how 'theory' is used in science. evolution as a theory is an explanation of how some natural activity works. from the american museum of natural history:
"A theory is a well-substantiated explanation of an aspect of the natural world that can incorporate laws, hypotheses and facts."
so while a theory can be proved, it can also be disproved, or modified as new or different results are discovered or identified. while there have been changes made to the theory of evolution since darwin, essential and new mechanisms having been discovered, it never changed the direction of what darwin set about to explain; how one organism changes into another.
so NO, religion is NOT a theory, it is a set of beliefs, unproven and unproveable that relies not on studies, or measurements or observations but instead on statements that claim to be inerrant, unchanging and more importantly, unchallengeable. religion is literally the opposite of a theory or science
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James Mounts
Rev. Dr. Father JJ - from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language the·o·ry (thēə-rē, thîrē) Share: Tweet 1. A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena. If you don't think Christianity fits this description, then you don't think.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
don't be insulting now, I certainly wasn't being.
how does one go about repeatedly testing religion? you can't! there is nothing to test, much less repeatedly.
and there is literally nothing about or in kkkrisinsanity that explains ANY natural phenomenon, it all claims to be the result of some supernatural being, and that can not be tested.
religion is presented as fact, with evidence supporting it provided by the religion. it's tautological, unprovable and simply made up.
SCIENCE on the hand is built upon, provided by and defended with evidence, proof. other scientists can test using the same techniques, or trials, or evidence and reach the same conclusion.
also, science can change due to new evidence, new testing, new methodologies, creating an even truer, more robust conclusion. religion does none of that. it exists in a vacuum as originally presented and disallows no change, no variation, no testing of data or facts. it's make-believe, not factual
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James Mounts
Father JJ, please accept my apology, My comment was meant as an aside of humor. Apparently it did not succeed. In a nutshell, you seem to be saying that religion is not theory because it is made up and not true while science is based on truth. If that is so, then please explain to me what existed before the big bang. I am not defending one or the other, i am simply saying both are guesses.
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Michael Hunt
They may both be guesses, but we have evidentiary data that we can use to better inform our guess as to how the big bang occurred and what came before. Additionally, we can perform various tests to see what theories hold up and which do not. We don't have the same ability with religion.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
James, no harm no foul, I misread. we're good.
religion does not meet the definition of 'theory' as it's used in science.
there is no way to know, period, what was, before the big bang. physicists propose some ideas but there is no way to know what existed before our universe existed.
it's like another argument here trying to determine how the first living organism appeared. we don't know but scientists, based on present evidence and experimentation suggests a few possible ways. it may be impossible to say for sure unless microscopic life is found elsewhere (in a habitat with both the living and the precursor)
however, accepting (as we all do) that life, once it began, began to evolve (even that may have taken a billion years to happen, no one is sure).
one recent thought is that it may be necessary for a planet to have tectonic activity, which disrupts the static, stagnant (so to speak) environments and forces microbes to change, or evolve to adapt to the new environment
circling back to the big bang, for anyone to state what was, before the big bang is indeed a guess.but science is not predicated on knowing that, only what happened after the big bang. so yeah, pre-big bang, guess but unimportant.
as for religion and goD, pure guess work all the way. simply no facts to verify or prove goD exists. so while asking what was there before there was a universe is unknowable other than it led to our universe. whereas people today still believe in a goD that is purely made up
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James Mounts
Father JJ. OK, I give up. You are correct, the religion of science is far superior.
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Michael Hunt
Well science isn't a religion so...
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Rev. Carol M Anaski-Figurski
The judge is right evolution is not religion & atheist is not religion. ULC guide to divinity copywrite 2016 pg4. " atheistism is not a religion any more than bald is a haircolor."
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
Just one more silly, stupid attempt by the kkkristofascists to try and get their religion into schools
Intelligent Design was laughed out of the classroom...it was just 'goD' but wearing funny glasses, big nose and mustache
I think the biggest shame is on the part of the lawyers who now better, unless they're kkkris chins, in which they too operate at a stunning high level of cognitive dissonance
Back to the defendants; they are either so stupid as to have literally no idea of what science is or, they are falsifying a complaint to try and keep science out of schools...thereby dumbing down public education to a level that suits and pleases them
And some here wonder why others of us here hold those people in such disdain. Trying to convince the court that science is religion...that atheism is a religion...it's like saying Bald is a Hair Color
la mamma dei cretini e sempre incinta
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
Upon further research I discovered that the Reinoehl famiy filed the complaint on their own, sans lawyers, which makes more sense now. Furthermore, the family has a bit of a history of filing complaints vis a vis krispy kream
It's not stated anywhere but either they have a lawyer friend assisting them in filing complaints or they're using some form of AI...which is about all one could expect from this family
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Michael Burton
Change the mandate to teaching paleontology and let people reach thoer own conculsions.
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Paula Copp
Evolution is provable. It’s not a religion. Just because someone doesn’t like a fact doesn’t make it anything other than a fact.
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ServantOfJudgement
Hardly so Paula.
Go ahead and find some self spawning life from funky mud and show it to me. I get a cup of coffee while you rummage through the drawers for it.
You have no choice but to believe.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
SHOJ
so the issue is not how life first started but rather, how life evolves. and that is, of course, what evolution is about.
what you are doing here is wanting to conflate the issue of how life first appeared with what happened to it once it did.
to understand evolution is to understand scientific investigation and the nature of how life meets and adapts to changes in the environment
I'm willing to be one of your arguments against evolution is that if we evolved from monkeys why are their still monkeys. right? I bet I am. (hint: dogs evolved from wolves. we still have wolves)
as for how life first did appear, it's thought natural forming lipids provided a means for the assembly of other chemicals and materials that eventually led to unicellular life.
it's a difficult concept to understand and there are people whose careers are spent studying the phenomena. will we ever know for sure, probably not but then again, maybe we will, one day. because it's based on studying natural processes and working both forwards and backwards to understand nature and evolution.
as opposed to throwing one's hands up the air and exclaiming, 'goD be doin it'
but since you like the snarky approach, go ahead and gather up your proof of a god and show it to me. I['ll] get a cup of coffee while you rummage through the universe for it.
you have every choice not to believe because you ain't gonna find yo goD nowheres
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John P Maher
AMEN ! FATHER JJ AMEN!!!
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ServantOfJudgement
Jj
I appreciate your kind response. Really, usually you come at me pretty hard. Anyway I get the divergence of species and I'm fine with that. That's Darwin's holy Grail and we can see it everywhere. Dogs make dogs. Horses make horses and apple trees make apple trees. Most Christians want proof of an acorn growing an apple tree. They don't understand what you've said to me and what I've learned when I studied the theory.
My hang-up is listed in a response to Rev BH. It's a heck of a longshot from my angle. To me, it's unbelievable. Maybe because I'm not a gambler, dunno but the odds make it impossible.
They're calling autogenesis Chemical Evolution. That's one heck of a longshot too. Like a mighty big-un. As we know, humans regularly do what nature can not. If we ever autogenesis some stuff in the lab,it'll be just that, stuff the boys down in the lab made. Our only hope would be to find it happening live in a place off earth. Ten bucks says we blow ourselves up first.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry JJ, but wrong again. if evolution is factual and we evolved from apes as claimed, then please tell us why there are still apes around? We have almost the same amount of claimed DNA for DOLPHINS as claimed we do for Apes. So using your logic, I can make the same claim about us evolving from Dolphins.
Or putting it a way even you can understand, an Elephant Shrew is closely related to an Elephant in DNA, so using your explanation, which one evolved from the other?
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
DG, once again you went to 'answers in genesis where science and facts go to die' for your research.
Apes are still around because apes, and humans, had a common ancestor about 6 million years ago. "Common" ancestor, form which hominids and apes descended from.
Amount of DNA and similarity in DNA are two different things. Just recently a small plant was found to have the greatest amount of DNA of any living creator, so 'amount' is the wrong way to look at it.
As for the elephant shrew, it is more closely related to the elephant than shrews because; "...elephant shrews are not, in fact, shrews. Recent evidence suggests that they are more closely related to a group of African mammals that includes elephants, sea cows, and aardvarks." So yeah, no elephants are not closely related to the elephant shrew other than by a coincidental trunk-like nose.
Clearly you either have no (or very limited) understanding of biology and evolution or you are here simply stating the usual bibble nonsense as a provocateur. Other than being a mammal (and having derived from a land mammal about 50 million years ago) dolphins are not closely related to humans at all
Humans and chimpanzees and bonobos) share about 98.7% of genes, which shows how closely we are related to them but are very distinct species.
You might be better off just correcting people on quoting your bibble correctly because so far everything you've written about evolution (and science) has not just been wrong, but stupendously wrong
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ServantOfJudgement
Divergence of species Daniel.
You're right about the DNA though. We actually share about 2 percent of DNA with Neanderthal Man, 25 percent with the alligator, 98 percent with a pig. I believe the latter, there's a lot of pigs in pants these days.
The average thinking man would conclude that we know absolutely nothing about DNA. Nothing.
Humans alone stand out as the unchallenged champion of evolutionary speed. No life form has made evolutionary leaps with so few generations. In 9.5 years, the average single celled organism has as many generations as 5 million years for humans yet they remain the same over billions of years.
That's 3.1x10 to the 13th of generations with zero change. Zero.
They say we've gone from throwing poop to building spaceships in 175000 generations.
Lol. Ok Boomer.
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Rev. BH
"The average thinking man would conclude that we know absolutely nothing about DNA. Nothing" He might conclude that, but he would be wrong. These research scientists know quite a bit: Crick, Franklin, Watson, and Wilkins. Check 'em out.
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Daniel Gray
we have and even they admit that they still do not understand DNA even after they mapped it.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
they are still studying DNA and learning, it's what science does. I suspect you think it's like a book and that one just flips the pages to read about this or that. one day, maybe, but so far it's a work in progress. you should offer up your DNA for sequencing, that ought to be interesting
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ServantOfJudgement
Rev bh, when the Popes and Bishops of DNA and evolution tell me they're 98% pig and 2% caveman all I can do is laugh.
When you see a frog, just remember that your got a better DNA match with it than you do a caveman. I'm not sure how well you jump. Im probably closer to a horse than a frog, I'm still pretty dang fast in my 50s but just a little jumpy.
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Rev. BH
Who are these "Popes and Bishops of DNA"? Where have they told you such things? Please, less silliness and more thoughtful discussion. unless silliness is your point?
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James Mounts
Why is it that today everything must be binary? Why, if I believe life has, and is, evolving do I have to believe it had one particular beginning over another? If God is all powerful and limitless, why constrain Him or Her or It? Whatever method a supreme being chooses to create life--in a mud puddle, in a big bang, from a hand full of dust thrown into a puddle, or all the above--it is His choice and need not make sense to me.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Best answer I’ve seen so far, James. Thank you.
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Mrknowitall
Really a brainless answer, sorry. God says he created man end of story. Mathematics and science says there's no evolution, there's only De-volution the exact opposite....Everything is running down, Everything !
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James Riggle-Johnson
God hasn’t said anything with the possible exception of the 10 commandments. Mathematics and science shows there is evolution. Are you taking your facts from the bible?
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Rev. BH
SOJ, then you can find some god and show it to her. And choice implies choice not forced belief.
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ServantOfJudgement
The trouble is rev BH, I'm comfortable with creation by God as being a belief. I'm also comfortable with evolution being a belief. I haven't found an atheist willing to admit they can't prove their beliefs. They parrot what the radical islamist and Christians say. Not saying a believing atheists aren't out there, just ain't seen one yet.
Back when I thought I was an atheist I realized both beliefs are impossible, that is creation and evolution.
Evolution equates to literally millions of simultaneous beneficial mutations shared across thousands of organisms working in concert towards an unknown and unrealized beneficial outcome spanning hundreds of millions of years without interruption of ice ages, polar shifts, global extinction events and so on.
Humans of course have achieved evolutionary leaps and bounds unlike any other lifeform and we've done them all at break neck speed. You might say miraculous speed. In order to keep us in the animal kingdom we've got to remove our mind from the comparison. For example, the fastest animal is the falcon at 240mph. Humans can and do travel at 25,000 mph. Pretty good, no?
One might say our abilities are supernatural for we do what can't be found anywhere in nature.
If you want proof of a creator, if you're willing that is, just look into your own eyes next time you're in front of a mirror. You'll see an amazingly beautiful creation looking at you.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
SHOJ, your statement below is absolutely wrong:
"Evolution equates to literally millions of simultaneous beneficial mutations shared across thousands of organisms working in concert towards an unknown and unrealized beneficial outcome spanning hundreds of millions of years without interruption of ice ages, polar shifts, global extinction events and so on."
The way it works is there is a population of organisms, many genetically similar, some with varying mutations. If there is a significant change in their environment such that it's detrimental to that population, that species could die out.
However, within that population are members with varying mutations, some of which may allow a small subset of the main population to survive. If they do they now can take over the habitat previously held by the now extinct members that lacked the necessary genetic mutation that allowed others to survive in that changed habitat
There is NO "working in concert towards an unknown...outcome..." It's ALL accidental, coincidental, happenstance, fortuitous. Evolution isn't necessarily "survival of the fittest" but survival of the luckiest.
Your understanding of evolution is either limited or flawed, while some of the conclusions in the following book have been changed, I recommend reading John J. Gould's 'It's A Wonderful Life.' He posits that if life could be rewound, the outcome would be very different because of all of the possible changes downstream each time.
You can argue the origin of life, decree it a fact, a guess or a belief, I really don't care. But the science of evolution is well understood and very much accepted. And the fossilized remains from the Burgess Shale leave no doubt that there were organisms that have no modern representatives; in other words they were extinguished either through competition or predation.
Through the 5 major extinction events, populations globally were wiped out due to a variety of environmental changes. Just look at the asteroid 66 million years ago that wiped out dinosaurs; the only survivor, birds. With the extinction of the dinosauria it allowed the small shrew-like mammal to not just survive the extinction event but to thrive, vis a vis humans.
Back to the origins of life: it is STILL easier to believe in natural causes for the origin of life than it is to believe in some supernatural being. So far there has never been a supernatural event that has been proven, to be responsible for anything.
There are reasons, facts and evidence whether we have them at hand yet or not, that explains (and will explain) all of life's processes. And when unicellular (or more) life is found off earth, that will be all the proof necessary as to its natural origins (well...unless you want to claim your goD has branch offices throughout the galaxy or there are other goDs)
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ServantOfJudgement
Sadly(for some) JJ the bible covers extraterrestrial life already. It exists. It also mentions a cosmic cataclysmic event prior our creation. I'm surprised we haven't found fossils on Mars. Maybe we have. The place looks like the entire atmosphere exploded. Lol, maybe we were survivors from mars. Who knows?
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Mrknowitall
Well your right in some ways, there was a cosmic cataclysmic event prior our creation, it was the fall of Satan and a war which destroyed our planet.....Genesis 1:1 and 1:3, in which the world becomes without form and void, or, as the Hebrew says, tohu va bohu
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Pamela S. Casteel
Bravo! Have a Beautiful day! Pam C. Texas
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Paula Copp
I don’t “need” to believe anything. I see the effects of evolution daily.
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Rev. BH
DE-evolution, Paula.
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Colleen McAllister
Evolution is not religion. Evolution is a more detailed explanation of how God created. The order in which everything was created - or evolved - matches up. I find it much harder to believe that such a universe as we live in just "happened" to come into being with no intelligence behind it. Too bad the couple has such weak faith that simple science threatens them.
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ServantOfJudgement
Colleen,
You've combined two religions.
Evolution is self creating life from non living materials. Because it will never be proven, it must be believed.
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Asa William Sprague, II
Not really. The theory of evolution only deals with how life forms change and diversify over time in correlation to their environment. It does not address where life came from originally.
The scientific theory that living matter sprang from non-living matter is called"Abiogenesis" and it is not widely accepted as valid.
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Mrknowitall
Not really and your wrong, at the end of the day evolution says we came from a rock and primordial soup....It's so stupid its scary. Yes there is micro evolution which is entirely different.
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Michael Hunt
Evolution does not say we came from a rock. That's patently false.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry Colleen, but it is. There is no such things as a "crossover" species so according to the US Supreme Courts decision on Atheism being a religion, if you have no proof that something exists you take it on faith, and the main basis of a religion is you have faith in it.
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Najah P Tamargo
Najah Tamargo-USA
This is a very old fight. If a child is to receive a FULL education, they need to know both sides of the story, and be able to decide, independently, what THEY believe. If parents don't want their children to study, science, world history etc., they should send their kids to a parochial school of their denomination. This is NOT an issue that belongs in the court room! Remember "separation of church and state?"
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Thomas P. Davis
The chances of them teaching both views are slim. Those that control the system know that given the evidence, Creationism will win out and that is not what they desire.
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Michael Hunt
We have evidence of the earth being trillions of years old, disproving the creationist belief that the earth is merely a few thousand years old.
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Thomas P. Davis
The only difference is those that believe it is not, far outweigh those that believe it is.
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Gary Young
Firstly, they've misunderstood the THEORY of evolution. I quote "It bestows upon ‘nature’ both intelligence and supernatural power to select and discern". It does nothing of the sort! Random mutations happen, those that convey an advantage outweigh others therefore proliferate. Also, scientific THEORY is always open to revision based on new information, such is the nature of science. Religion is usually a set of dogmas, beliefs, without objective foundation that are considered immutable. So easily identified as non-scientific.
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John P Maher
WELL I SEE EVOLUTION EVERYWHERE every day, HUMAN and ANIMAL and PLANT, THE CHRISTIANS SEE GOD EVERYWHERE, I HAVE NEVER SEEN or HEARD " GO D " ONLY EVOLVED HUMANS TALKING of "GOD" ENDLESSLY ITS ALL" B S "
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ServantOfJudgement
Evolution takes millions of years, exactly how old are you?
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Gerardo Salazar
A friend of mine, a Jesuit priest who was also a geneticist, was giving an interview in his lab and when the interviewer asked him if his research would be akin to playing God his answer was, and I will never forget, that they were discussing Science but if she wanted to talk religion he would be happy to remove his white coat, across the street, change into his black clothes and then they could start. His point was that you don’t mix religion with Science. Evolution is well beyond being a mere theory and there’s ample proof of this fact. People are afraid of losing their faith by asking questions because they’re afraid of the answer. I do believe in God, our Creator, but really don’t care how He did it and each new scientific discovery is proof enough for me of His magnificence.
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Therese M. Boehlert
Ok, so even if humans evolved, it was because of God's creation.
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Michael Hunt
This is a comical suit. Evolution theory is based on scientific testing, not blind faith. Science is not the "religion of atheism", it's our best understanding of the world we live in. If you want to argue that atheism is a religious belief we can have that discussion, but it is not a religion itself since it is simply the lack of belief in a creator or religion.
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Mrknowitall
You are wrong and must be high. Mathematics and science have quantified the the theory of evolution is fake, there is no such thing as evolution, there is only De-volution. If you don't want to believe in God that's your problem just don't include us in your fallacy.
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TheStranger
@Mrknowitall—Nothing in your post is remotely factual. Let’s start with your claim that “Mathematics and science have quantified the theory of evolution is fake.” Please, oh, please, delight us with your sources and scientific data for that claim. Secondly, no one was including you or anyone else to believe proven research. If you don’t want to believe in evolution, that’s your problem, just don’t include the rest of us (sane and not high) in your magical beliefs.
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Michael Hunt
Mrknowitall, clearly you don't know it all. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK230201/
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
math and science have done no such thing. Evolution is factually the way the world works, to claim otherwise would suggest someone came from rocks, or mud, or the mystical magical twisty finger of gawd
BTW, you're evolving whether you want to or not, problem for us is, just not fast enough
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TheStranger
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God can't be proven by order or faith either one. God can't be expressed by scripture, or made into something like religion. There is only one lengthy way to prove God that most who claim to believe in God have no interest in or patience for. There is only one way to express God, they don't have any interest in that either. They won't even accept the extremely direct instruction given to them to do either. So, there's no reason for atheists to believe in God. At least not when those who claim to believe don't believe in God enough to follow the most direct simple instructions they were given and ignore that "all" people are to be respected, loved, and encouraged as every person is; not judgement, not condemnation, not stumblingblocks. And most have been more interested in being defensive and resistent to taking care of the earth, the first instruction given in no uncertain terms. I believe in the natural God of existence who never called for religion and didn't authorize any title for their followers. So I'm on the atheists side in these kinds of discussions, believers lose every time they show their victim-loving stripes.