Earlier this month, fact-checking watchdog Snopes published an op-ed from Paul Braterman, Professor Emeritus in Chemistry at the University of Glasgow. The article likens young Earth creationism – the belief that God created the universe between 6,000 and 10,000 years ago – to believing in debunked conspiracy theories like QAnon.
That wasn’t very well received in some Christian circles.
Creationism as Conspiracy?
“I would argue that the present-day creationist movement is a fully fledged conspiracy theory,” the post says. “It meets all the criteria, offering a complete parallel universe with its own organisations and rules of evidence, and claims that the scientific establishment promoting evolution is an arrogant and morally corrupt elite.”
Braterman traces the popular re-emergence of young Earth creationism, suggesting it was a direct response to the re-focus on scientific education that American schools took to following World War II. He then posits that popular modern creationists, like Ken Ham, president of the young Earth theme park Ark Encounters, keep the belief alive by “paradoxically” claiming that young Earth theory is scientific.
“Like other conspiracy theorists,” he says, “creationists immunise themselves from fact-based criticism. They label the study of the past as based on unprovable assumptions, thus disqualifying in advance the plain evidence of geology.”
Braterman’s not the only public figure to draw a line between Christianity and QAnon conspiracies. HBO host Bill Maher called the January 6th storming of the Capitol a “faith-based initiative,” and implied that the Venn diagram between Christians and QAnon believers is a circle. “When you’re a QAnon fanatic, you’re also a fundamentalist Christian,” he said on his program. “They just go together, like macaroni and cheese or chardonnay and Valium.”
A Big Bang of a Reaction
The assertion that devout religious belief is tantamount to believing in a conspiracy wasn’t met with the warmest reaction, as you might imagine.
Braterman “has an agenda against Christians,” Ken Ham told Faithwire, and lamented his association of young Earth creationism with conspiracy theories. “They try to demonize us by aligning us with groups that we have absolutely nothing to do with at all,” he said.
He also took a direct shot at Snopes. While there is a warning at the top of the article that the opinions are the author’s alone and not that of Snopes, Ham says that doesn’t matter. They did “exactly what they say not to do: they passed on false information.”
What do you think? Is it a fair comparison to draw, or is painting a parallel between Creationism and full-fledged conspiracy theories like QAnon a bridge too far?
79 comments
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Brien
However the belief in a fictional being manifests itself, it is still fictional. People who can't relate to reality cover themselves in a fictional belief that they can twist to fit whatever they can deal with. At best this is borderline mental illness. It would not be so bad but the delusional believers of fictional events insist that everyone now down to their illness. I don't care what you want to believe in, but do not push your fiction onto me. As for the belief that God sent Trump, God also sent locusts and Hitler. Food for thought as you swim in your fiction. Peace
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Theresa
Brien, Brilliant statement! Especially your second sentence. May peace be with you, Theresa
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Brien
I just noticed that the evil spell check made an unwanted correction to my post. "...insists that everyone cow down to their illness."...is how the line should read. Anyway, thank you Theresa...peace
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Afi Andaiye Najuma Reynolds
Peace!
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T Kosse`
https://ec.europa.eu/info/live-work-travel-eu/coronavirus-response/fighting-disinformation/identifying-conspiracy-theories_en
What are conspiracy theories? Why do they flourish?
- What are they?
The belief that certain events or situations are secretly manipulated behind the scenes by powerful forces with negative intent.
Conspiracy theories have these 6 things in common
An alleged, secret plot.
A group of conspirators.
‘Evidence’ that seems to support the conspiracy theory.
They falsely suggest that nothing happens by accident and that there are no coincidences; nothing is as it appears and everything is connected.
They divide the world into good or bad.
They scapegoat people and groups.
Why do they flourish?
They often appear as a logical explanation of events or situations which are difficult to understand and bring a false sense of control and agency. This need for clarity is heightened in times of uncertainty like the COVID-19 pandemic.
- How do they take root?
Conspiracy theories often start as a suspicion. They ask who is benefiting from the event or situation and thus identify the conspirators. Any ‘evidence’ is then forced to fit the theory.
Once they have taken root, conspiracy theories can grow quickly. They are hard to refute because any person who tries is seen as being part of the conspiracy.
- People spread conspiracy theories for different reasons:
Most believe they are true. Others deliberately want to provoke, manipulate or target people for political or financial reasons. Beware: They can come from many sources e.g. internet, friends, relatives.
This one is on How to spot a conspiracy theory when you see one. It is somewhat too long to post it here, so here the link.
It go into more detail on conspiracy theory.
http://www.open.ac.uk/research/news/how-spot-conspiracy-theory-when-you-see-one
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Peter Bradshaw
There's not a lot of daylight between conspiracy theories and theisms. The biggest difference is probably that conspiracy theorists call their delusions "theories" while theists call their delusions "dogma."
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Robert A Stiff
Brilliant comment. I intend to steal and use it. :)
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JT of the plains
Reading the comments here is very sad. So much meanness and spiteful personal attacks. Truly a sad state when civil discussion is not even found happening on a place like this. Truly sad.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Let me get out my stratovarious and play you some sad music, John.
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Anisahoni
You mean Stradivarius Violin, right? A most beautiful musical instrument! You go it confused with a Strotocaster Guitar, right? LOL
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Anisahoni
John, you are so right on. It is sad, that people come here trolling, attacking and failing to engage in resepctful and reasonalbe discussion. We can be capable of respectful discourse, but as I posted elsewhere, the ULC takes no steps to vet prospective ministers, so there is a full range of craziness to biblical and ancient text scholars. So this platform is what it is. You can chose to ignore or mute a discussion. If you think this is bad, you should see some of the past nastiness on the ministers' site. Truly disgraceful. But you are not alone. Just fremember that. Ignore the snide comments and never avoid posting your opinions and ideas.
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Minister Mike
So, what's the conspiracy (a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful.)?
Nothing harmful or unlawful about a bunch of loonies believing their reality.
Let's make up a new definition of "conspirator": anyone who moronically wrongfully accuses anyone or group of conspiracy.
We are, most definitely, in the Crazy Years.
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Shadow J VanDusen
The harm from a bunch of magical thinking people that can vote, is that they vote according to those beliefs which don't line up with reality, and thereby force others to follow beliefs spawned from the magical thinking (or else).
It's not all "harmless" as you make it out to be. Not even considering the extremists, just voting laws based on something OTHER than reality is a recipe for so very many problems. (Evidence: See the world we currently live in.)
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Johnny Mac
Trust me NO one knows GOD’s abilities. It may have taken millions of years to construct the earth. His day could have been millions of hours long. Not only did he have to form each thing, man or beast; he had to figure out how many and where to place them. Ask a farmer how long it takes to grow corn or wheat? Ask a car engineer how long it takes a car from thought, to paper, to design, to building?
We do not know HIS thoughts, we seek his thoughts but most likely we can’t understand, or capture them they are moving so fast. Those who do may never understand what it means for them to do or perhaps a Edward Abraham may have found Penicillin as he did in 1942. Almost 2000 years after Christs Death. And Billions of years after the creation of Universes.
Really think hard! I know some of you will get a head ache but could you build a human, an elephant, a octopus? How long may it take you? Can you build a earth or a moon? Build a Star! Millions of billions of years, I think! And it is written, In 6 days GOD created everything and on the Sabbath he rested. I think I would have too. Never think your smarter than THE FATHER!
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Johnny Mac you do know the Bible’s story of creation was found to be wrong by the Belgium priest who is responsible for the Big Bang theory which we now know to be a fact. This priest proved Einstein theory and formula was wrong and corrected it and in doing so proved that God got the order of creation wrong in the Bible for days, 2, 3, 4, 5, and part of 6.
You do know God is not the only one who has created life. Over a decade ago man created the first synthetic organism. And thanks to Darwin’s theory of evolution we can combine features from plans and animals and create ne species of life God never made.
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JaZe
Isnt that why The Creator had archangels, angels and devas do the bulk of the work?
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Lionheart
Did you get your evidence of creation, archangels, angels, and devas, from CNN? Just asking for a friend.
It’s a fun story though. I still find the Harry Potter series of books more interesting though, but trust me, those books are also fiction just in case you’re starting to think otherwise.
🦁❤️
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Don't forget about sea monkeys. And then there was Victor Frankenstein.
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Brian Konrad Elliott Balke
I am sorry, you are wrong about your science. The Big Bang is no longer considered a valid model of the formation of the early universe. Your introduction of it in this dialog is a conspiratorial attempt to intimidate those that you disagree with.
I freely assert that "Science" is your god, and that "scientists" are your priests. Scientists have told you that the soul does not exist - largely because they cannot explain offer a model of its nature.
Just to bend your mind a little more: the Biblical Creation myth is fully validated by astrophysics and evolutionary society. It catalogs the evolutionary steps from the initial unstructured cosmos through stars and planets to living creatures that sense matter and invent new forms. Along the way, "Let there be light" is photosynthesis. Furthermore, the Trumpets in the Book of Revelation are the great ecological disasters now to paleontology.
Evolution does not disprove the Bible. It proves it.
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Rob Johnson
First snopes cannot be trusted. Second giving to libturd communist professors both grants the legitimacy and justifies their stupidity. Ignore and they have no platform. As they have no moral center the drives them away as the empty chaff they are.
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Ilmenheru Terikson
Coming from someone spouting words that clearly indicate your own inability to live in the real world, and likely still think a traitor and would be dictator is the real president I am not sure why you think anything you say would ever be taken as other then the bile spewed by a truly evil soul.
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Robert A Stiff
You lost me at "libturd" and communist to describe people you disagree with. Try stating facts instead of right-wing drivel.
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Simon E Blatta
It doesn't matter whether or not you 'trust' Snopes. It doesn't matter where the Baterman article was published. You read it. You disagree with the assertions in the article. Now, provide arguments and evidence that counter those assertions. If you have alternative propositions, state and support those.
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Catherine
Snopes is comprised of a husband and wife team of investigative truthers. Their judgments are too often biased to be a 'go to' source of information.
Same with Wikipedia which deliberately, given its claimed high standards for editors, obscures what doesn't suit its investors. I walked away from voluntarily editing for Wikipedia after recognizing certain material is consistently misrepresented no matter how good the source for accuracy. Wikipedia does sometimes have good bibiliography, though the presentation is twisted by editors.
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Diana Lynn Angell
Good for you. I respect that. And Snopes couple well he divorced first wife and married a sex by phone lady next time and I don't trust anything they put out. I also have noticed on many occasions how slanted Wikedpedia is and inaccurate as I have literally known people they have put false information out on. For instance, I grew up with John Thain, former CFO of Goldman Sachs, as well as headed Wall Street and Merrill Lynch, the golden toilet boy...Well, John's wiki stated his dad was a brick layer and I changed that several times and someone kept changing it back. Clearly they did not know or live in the same neighborhood with Dr. Alan Thain. Alan was our family doctor as well as our friend. Dennis and Robert followed in dad's footsteps but first born John was always way too arrogant to stay in little Antioch Illinois and the rest as they say is history. Finally someone did change the wiki to what I had kept putting in. Perhaps it got the attention of John who set them straight. Oh, and John's mother Sophie, of Greek origin, was a stay at home mom. Clearly a brillant woman but John got his hubris from her. Alan was much more down to earth. There is a story that is absolutely true.
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Alexander Clarke
Religion is for the weak. Weak people follow "strong" leaders. The blind followers of Trump is an example as is Hitler, Kim Jung Un, etc. Religious leaders are just like political leaders both are corrupt to the core.
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Anisahoni
I respectfully disagree that "religous leaders are just like political leaders both are corupt to the core." I can think of leaders like: Bishop William Barber, the co-founder of the "Poor Peoples' Campaign", Rev. Howard Thurman, Sister Simone Campbell, Rev Dr Martin Luther King, among countless others who actually do good for humanity and their communites. They don't have megachurces, they are/were in the streets with the people. Of course there are greedy ones like Joel Olsteen, who are corrupt, along with all the other TV evangelists who just want money for their private jets and mansions.
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Donald Richard Starns
“in the beginning there was this turtle. And he was very big and he was walking. And he mated with his mother, who was the Earth. And from the Earth came forward a Man, and he was of the mud. And he grew, until he was Mighty.”
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I've heard of Harry Mudd. He was on Star Trek.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Is it true that big turtles have little ones?
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I've heard big turtles have little ones. I hope Sybil is paying attention.
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Ilmenheru Terikson
Ill be honest this thread is having a very us versus them vibe that takes even me aback a bit. I myself became a minister in the ULC more then a decade ago now in large part because I strongly agree with and support the idea of an umbrella ministry for non denominational and non traditional spiritual ideas and even personal self created faith traditions to unify and support each other against the archaic and domineering ancient and blood soaked faith traditions.
However I do also see some reason and rhyme in each of those old faiths and as long as the modern follower has shed the archaic aspects and can practice their faith in a fashion that is in line with our secular values in the U.S. I have no issue with any god, angel, devil, or giant invisible sky fairy anyone wishes to call upon in times of stress to help give them calm in their turbulent spirit and persevere.
That being said, creationists are right up there with flat earthers, moon landing deniers, climate change deniers, holocaust deniers, and those who think marrying 14 year olds like goes on all too often in christian communities in the U.S. tells me there is some real jonestown level cult shyte going on in those communities.
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Ealdormon Piparskeggr Robinson
I try to keep in mind that there is a difference between Mythic Truth and Existence, and Physical Truth and Existence.
If one is a Believer, one likely has a Creation Story within the underlying Mythos. It's like a religion's "Once upon a time..." beginning.
I think and believe that some Literalists do not want to acknowledge the difference between Mythic Reality and our shared Physical Reality.
In the Northern Creation, there was a yawning void, Ginungagap that stretched from Niflheim (a place of cold and ice) to Muspelhiem (a place of heat and fire). The dance of these two primal forces is said to have quickened the formation of all that came after. One can see an allegory for the Universe being formed by natural forces, from the base of understanding the original story tellers had.
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John P Maher
NOT to BE RUDE NOR CRUDE, WHAT CREATES HUMAN LIFE ARE 100% FUNCTIONING TESTICALS I ALSO BELIEVE THAT of ALL ANIMAL LIFE, STUDY YOUR MEDICAL JOURNAL, PLEASE..........?????????
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Alice Stewart
The process also requires ovaries, as well as testicles (nothing diminishes one's credibility worse than missspelling one of the key words in your text).
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Catherine
“When you’re a QAnon fanatic, you’re also a fundamentalist Christian,” he said on his program. (Maher)
That is poor comparison by Maher, or whomever wrote it for him.
While I'm more inclined toward astrotheology and cross cultural studies, I figure this world is difficult enough without saying people are stupid for believing what gets them through a day. I talk with the Universe every day :.)
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Peter Bradshaw
We, where "we" means me and many other reasonable people, are entirely unconcerned with you believing in what gets you through the day. What concerns us is what you say and do to other people because you believe. And while many people say you're stupid, they are inarticulate and sloppy in their speech - it's gullibility you're guilty of, not stupidity. (Well, I suppose the case can be made that it's kind of stupid to believe one particular set of religious notions while discounting the thousands of others.)
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Brian Konrad Elliott Balke
"it's gullibility you're guilty of"
I acknowledge and am grateful for the opportunity to love. I recognize that force is greater than I am. This is the true teaching of the Bible: that we should be humble and surrender to the tutelage of love.
Taking the soul as an axiom (just so you don't waste time arguing if you don't), the traditions of Abraham are unique in that they do not accommodate the spiritual forms that evolved prior to humanity - the spirits that integrated themselves as dinosaurs and birds and fish and mammals. The traditions of Abraham assert that humanity is different, with novel attributes that cannot flourish unless we cast off the weight of our Darwinian past.
The most important of those attributes is the capacity to love.
What the Creationists are rebelling against, fundamentally, is the assertion that we are only flesh and blood. Against the spiritual insensitivity of the materialist view of reality, they hold up their faith. Your rejection of their beliefs is the bulwark that allows them to honor their souls.
In fact, the synthesis I offer above indicates that we have much to offer one another. If we are to do that, we should avoid disparaging language.
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John P Maher
BELIVEING in FALACIES and TALKING to YOURSELF [ the universe ] IF THE SHOE FITS, STEAL IT!!!
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Robert A Stiff
Do you also speak in all caps?
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Stealing shoes is a crime which is punishable by incarceration.
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Catherine
John Spong, an Episcopal Bishop, makes the most sense to me. He says, "'Hell' as an invention of the church" in an online video that is freely available to anyone who looks for it.
"People don't need to be born again. They need to grow up.... God is not a christian. The idea God can be bound in any human system, by any human book, is almost beyond imagination for me." ~ Spong
We do tend to find what we look for, though, yeah? :.)
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John P Maher
TRY PRACTICING WHAT YOU PREACH, IT SEEMS YOUR HEAD is FULL of NOTHING of VALUE to PONDER YOUR TIME WITH YOURSELF, SOUNDS LIKE MASTERBATION and NOT PROCREATION, EH WHAT ?
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I'll never say a bad thing about masterbation. Once a day keeps the psychiatrist away. And it's perfectly alright to cast your seed on the ground, if you're doing it outside. You certainly don't want to hold it in your hand, until you find a woman to put it in.
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Thomas Allyn Wilson
John Shelby Spong is one of my favorite human beings and I wish I had met him and had met him when I was much younger! Thank you for sharing!
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Daniel Gray
So you are saying that you have ONE person in the whole world that is saying different? Nobody knows for sure howm old the earth actually is, and for the those who claim that its billions and billions of years old, need I remind you of the Methuselah star? the same Methuselah star, HD 140283 is 190.1 light-years away. Astronomers refined the star's age to about 14.3 billion years (which is older than the universe), plus or minus 800 million years. Image released March 7, 2013. So tell me exactly how your so called expert(s) can claim they know how old the earth is but are so wrong on the age of a star?
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Martin L Stigleman
Think that over for a minute... You are saying that, if scientists can't correctly judge the age of a star that would take almost 200 years to travel to (IF we were able to travel at a speed that is currently impossible for us to reach), then we shouldn't trust the age they place on the Earth THAT THEY STOMP ON EVERY DAY WHEN THEY GET OUT OF BED?! One point that this article makes is that, people will bring up the most obscure facts and make statements to create arguments that will support their views. You can see the proof if that just by looking back through all of the comments here. From misspelling of simple words because people were so pushy to get their argument out there that they couldn't take the time to proofread what they typed, to ridiculous grammar by people who otherwise are trying to use big words to make people think they are smart so they will listen to them (Oh, and the YELLING EVERYTHING idiot!), to just outright "This is what is in a book, so it is fact!". This entire article is saying "The Young Creationist ideology meets the qualifications of what make a Conspiracy Theory". It doesn't question how YOU think the Universe was created or what other faiths believe. No one here is being converted by any of your personal beliefs you spew...so do you actually have an argument as to WHY this article is wrong? Why the comparison to a conspiracy theorist group is incorrect?
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
All I can say for sure is that this planet was here when I was born
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Ilmenheru Terikson
Actually Carl my dear, you can not even be sure of that. For all you know you are a brain in a jar floating in space, and every single thing you consider to be true is just a product of your mind.
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James Grainger
If God created only Adam and Eve, then we must all be products of incest>>>>>>>>>
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Anisahoni
We are products of DNA manipulation by extraterrestrials written about by the ancient Summerians and know as Anunnakis..
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Ilmenheru Terikson
Well I wont quite commit to that, but I do suspect based on our species actual time on this world, and the speed at which we seem to be able to progress from stone age to space age, it seems very odd we only this time around since the last ice age have reached this level of tech.
Though I will say this, if you ever look at stone henge, and think about the shape of a classic flying saucer, and then go to an auto garage and see the jacks they use to lift up whole cars, The henge kind of looks like some kind of stone age version of such a support structure.
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John Casillo
FOR ALL THE COMMENTS HERE AND FOR THOSE IN THE PAST OR THE FUTURE...PROVE IT!....REV. JOHN
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Thomas Allyn Wilson
I have no felt need or desire to prove anything or have anyone believe as me. When it comes to spirituality! My only desire is to encourage folks to come to their own conclusions thoughtfully and to live loved and live love.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Faith cannot be proven, so remain a disbeliever. We like you better that way.
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Thomas Allyn Wilson
I have no qualms with saying that I am convinced that all faith traditions are less then 1% right about anything and at least 99% wrong. I don't even believe the word god is an accurate understanding. When it comes to the bible the first two books that IMO should be thrown out are Genesis and Revelation. Both as I understand were political allegories not even intended to be considered religious texts as I believe the prominent historian Elaine Pagels says.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
G.O.D. only means good, orderly, direction, and should never be taken out of that concept. Beyond that read Hermetic philosophy. The universe is mental, and only a thought in the mind of The All. If that's too much for you to comprehend, be a good boy, and go to church every Sunday.
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Thomas Allyn Wilson
Cute saying! Now its time to deal with reality! This saying is almost on the level of Fear is False Evidence Appearing Real.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Why not burn the whole bible, Thomas? You know, like roll it up and smoke it, for a truly ecclesiastical high.
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Thomas Allyn Wilson
Because I don't roll up and smoke anything. However, I do vaporize marijuana flower nightly for mental and physical health reasons. Besides in my own life I have virtually burned the whole bible and all supposed sacred texts. IMO all religions are 99% percent wrong and created to manipulate and control people.
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Ilmenheru Terikson
A very odd way to look at it. As one who among other things has actually sought higher education in studying and comparing the various myths, legends, and faith traditions, their origins and interconnections you seem to have a highly well bigoted attitude towards the entire concept.
The simple way to look at them is at their earliest faith traditions begin at a tribal level usually hand in hand with a hunter/warrior group the spiritual leader may be male or female, but typically if male will if they have daughters wed those daughters to the lead hunters/warriors to create a strong unified front in what we might call the tribal version of the 3 executive branches.
Faith traditions are usually just efforts to explain things, and are why the role often seems to be filled by those we tend to refer to now days as philosophers and natural scientists. After all it did take many many centuries for the best minds to figure out there were more then 4 elements, even ancient geniuses who created things that amaze us many centuries later thought fire an element like some savage cave man, and in fact far too many to this day think the archaic idea of the 4 elements has some spiritual validity in large part due to popular fiction.
The primary civil function of a religion is actually just to be a form of government, especially at a local community level as it is highly effective, maybe even the best way to build a strong bonded small community.
The issue when this civil tool is misused to create events like Jonestown, or cults of violent rabid animals like the manson family and the mob in the capital.
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Ilmenheru Terikson
Now now carl you really should say to use only the blank leaf pages, the ink can be toxic especially if it is really old lead based ink. As a minister you really should be taking such things into consideration when ministering advice of how to partake of the good green. Do you really want some poor sod to go and get lead poisoning while toking out? It might turn them into like I dont know something stupid like a Drumpf voter.
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Brian Konrad Elliott Balke
The Creation myth and the Trumpets of Revelation, recorded respectively 7000 and 2000 years ago, together fully correlate with the paleontology uncovered over the last 200 years. The bowls of Revelation describe the current era of exploitation of the natural world, and its consequences.
www.love-returns.org
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Maybe there never was a beginning. If God is eternal, so might be the universe, and all it contains. Realize such things are impossible for finite, human minds to comprehend, and simply accept it, or forever question it to no avail. The choice is yours. Acceptance is the key to liberation from the unknowable.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I never thou g ht any part of the bi be le was supposed to be taken seriously. I could have sworn it was a very sardonic and sadistic ancient comic book, written by psychiatric patients, for psychiatric patients (of the variety whose heads were encaged).
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Has anyone seen flugo?
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Ilmenheru Terikson
hard to say def been one or two that could be new socks of his on some of the articles in the last month.
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Marathuzula
Most religions require one ignore actual verifiable facts... seems pretty solidly in the realm of conspiracy theories. A profiting body selling propaganda to maintain their money flow...
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Brian Konrad Elliott Balke
All of the world's great religious aspire to only one goal: teaching us to love one another. That they have failed, to this point, is more a testament to the difficulty of suppressing our pre-existing Darwinian programming.
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Christians have been spreading fake news for just over 2,000 years. It was Martin Luther who exposed the corruption and un-Christian behavior with the Pope and Catholic Church which lead to the Protestants. Pope ordered Martin Luther to be killed in the name of God and the Catholic Church. How is it the Pope doesn’t have to obey 10 commandments he tells everyone else to obey?
Psst hey bud, are you so woefully ignorant of the basic differences of the Abarahamic faith traditions? NEws flash the 10 C are old T hebrew, they do not apply to the followers of the J-Man. Those who follow him use the 7 virtues and 7 sins. If they are spouting OT 10 C they are most certainly not Christians.
> if they are spouting OT 10 C they are most certainly not Christians.
TIL. See, I was taught that Jesus (who is almost certainly a fictional character) said "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven"
EXACTLY and being an Essene would have known the metaphysical traditions as well.
What I fail to understand is exactly why it is that leftist leaning folk are so completely threatened by faith. It really isn't moderate faith based people who go around burning and rioting and murdering their fellow man as they have an ethos of do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I believe Antifa and BLM are not in church on Sunday or synagogue on Saturday.
It's not faith they are threatened by. It's the valuing of magical thinking over solid evidence which leads to so many problems. It's the fact that people with magical thinking are doing their best to legislate their beliefs into the law of the land to force everyone (believer or not) to follow their beliefs.
The continual attack against demonstrable reality which the faithful rally around as a mob, united in their magical thinking. These are the things which lead to so very many problems and tragedies.
The very same tragedies that those who understand science, and honestly have compassion for their fellow humans (without regard to what gender, race, color, creed, sex, gender, or sexual orientation is) are trying to survive in... For the better of not only themselves, but for everyone - as equals.
Of course, those that think it's alright for adults (that can vote on laws) to still not understand that there's a line between make believe and reality, and be okay with their "faith"... They have been taught that the problems others have is about them believing things.
It's not.
It's about them pushing to have those non-reality-based beliefs become law that everyone else must follow... THAT is the problem. (And please notice I'm not talking about the extremists here... I'm talking about the average believer that votes.)
Please DEFINE magical thinking. Also science is not fact, it is observation married to theory. Quantum Physics for example is based on observation but then so is biology and anatomy etc. All become fact when enough people with an agenda agree on them. So faith and science are in the same camp and perhaps your critical thinking skills lack merit as I can say with certainty that no one can prove anything beyond a shadow of a doubt. Why are you involved in a ministerial blog?
Diane, you clearly do not grasp that the ULC is a non denominational ministry, we actually welcome and encourage discussion here with civil atheist interested in discussion and debate like Shadow here. You on the other hand are clearly ignorant about the meaning behind words like fact, faith, belief, reason, truth, proof, theory, hypothesis, and I suspect a great deal more based on the insular rhetoric you are spewing on a secular site.
The ULC fully supports and endorses people all across the gender spectrum, and is not a place for ignorant bigots who lack a grasp on actual science, and embrace willfull ignorance and clinging to the archaic faith traditions of the past so steeped in blood and strife.
SHADOW wow the name speaks volumes. And its been decades since the majority of people have truly done anything about some of the things you are concerned about in regard to lets say sexual orientation. This left agenda is to divide and conquer and bully and actually they have become the bigots, the racists against people of faith. Gender? Excuse me but nature only creates two genders with the exception of Hermaphrodites which are rare. Up is down in your world. Grow up and stop being an impediment to the world's solutions as there are many of us who are working on answers not problems. What you focus on you become.
You are quite incorrect with much you have replied with. Also, Shadow is my NAME, so I'm not sure what you're trying read into it. And I was a pastor (went to seminary and everything) for years before I became an atheist.
As for why I'm here. I care about people, and so I have discussions around the rights of people to: > Believe what they want to believe. > Identify as whatever gender they feel compelled to. > Live free of the restrictions of the beliefs of others which don't align with reality.
(And for the record, "reality" is that which continues to be demonstrably correct, and able to withstand challenge and scrutiny. Religious beliefs do not fall into this category on their own merit, no matter how much anyone wishes for them to.)
Finally, you asked for a definition of "magical thinking". It's also known as "wishful thinking", "make believe"...; Anything which one believes because they WANT it to be true, without good, objective evidence to support it. (I.E. The definition of "faith")
As for the rest of the drivel you posted in reply, it didn't match up to what I was talking about, so I'm going to dismiss it as non-relevant to this discussion. Perhaps it would be better not to assume you know where my views are until I explicitly state them. Thanks.
@ Diana Lynn Angell Please tell what criteria do you use define male and female. What do you call someone who has a penis and a uterus? Or someone who has neither? One out of every 300 births results in someone having a sex related abnormality.