Is requiring employees to wear certain uniforms based on their gender discriminatory? A Washington state human rights watchdog says yes, and is going after a Seattle-based airline giant for their policy requiring employees to dress in male or female clothing, arguing the policy discriminates against the airline’s nonbinary employees.
Are gendered dress codes discriminatory?
Alaska Air, You're Grounded
The Human Rights Commission of Washington state (HRC) is warning Alaska Airlines that forcing employees to choose between traditionally masculine and traditionally feminine dress is likely a violation of Washington state’s anti-discrimination laws.
The HRC wrote that there’s a “preponderance of evidence” that Alaska Airlines violated the rights of employee Justin Wetherell, who identifies as nonbinary, last year.
The policy’s since been updated, but prior uniform guidelines at Alaska Airlines required employees to choose between masculine or feminine uniform, accessories, and grooming.
The masculine uniform, for example, required a vest, tie, and pants. The feminine uniform allowed a dress or skirt, as well as makeup, jewelry, and nail polish. The former policy did not allow any mixing and matching of uniform elements, and employees with facial hair of any sort were required to wear the masculine uniform.
Justin Wetherell repeatedly asked for exceptions, finding that the binary choice of presenting as masculine or feminine was not consistent with their gender identity.
All of their requests were denied, leading to repeated sick calls from Wetherell, who experienced extreme anxiety over having to present as male at work.
Mile High Flub
Alaska Airlines changed their tune when the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) got involved.
The ACLU came to Wetherell’s defense, arguing that the policy blatantly violated Washington state law which states it is illegal to “[require] an individual to dress or groom in a manner that is not consistent with that individual’s gender expression or gender identity.”
“These rigid, binary uniform requirements are more than a mere inconvenience,” the ACLU wrote to Alaska Airlines. “By forcing our client and countless other employees to adhere to Alaska Airlines’ preferred vision of how men and women should appear, the uniform policy demeans employees who do not conform to gender stereotypes and materially interferes with their ability to do their jobs under equal terms and conditions as other employees.”
Additionally, the ACLU pointed out that the only thing the binary dress code does is reinforce “archaid and harmful gender stereotypes” that they are say are wildly outdated.
In response, Alaska Airlines revised the policy several times, even going as far as to claim that they are a “leader in the industry” on inclusive dress. They even promoted their newly relaxed dress code on social media.
Alaska Airlines is currently working with Wetherell and the HRC on an inclusive dress code, including a completely gender neutral option. But what that looks like - and if all parties agree on it - remains to be seen.
What do you think? Should employers have the right to enforce a dress code that forces employees to choose masculine or feminine attire? Or is it blatantly discriminatory to employees who don’t strictly identify as male or female?
When it comes to workplace attire, who gets the final say?
121 comments
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Pastor George Day
As ULC members, this Monastery is our way of connection. Coming here is like participating at a church meeting in our denomination. I hope you guys meditate on the Desiderata at the end of each thread. It helps us stay connected with the Spirit and share respectfully.
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Shane Michael Westerbur
I feel that this argument is stupid. They are a private company and therefore should have the right to make policies based on their personal beliefs. People who are non-binary don't have to work there. They are capable of finding a company that shares their beliefs. If not then maybe they should re-evaluate their beliefs instead of forcing others to conform.
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Pastor George Day
@Shane Michael Westerbur, I don't think they are legally allowed to discriminate against protected minorities even if they are a private company. At least this is the law in the UK.
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Pink Clover
IMO this isn't even about what sex you are. I'm a 60 year old female and I HATE dresses and have hated them since I was in my early 20s. No one should be forced to wear them. Period.
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Amber Fry
I don't think a uniform at work is an issue but I do think forcing women to only where skirts is very much discrimination. Keep the uniform but give them the choice. I've been on flights where the women did have a uniform but could choose between slacks and a skirt. It worked fine. Give them the choice.
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Reverend Bob
I am what I am, Happy or Sad... I sometimes are They, Christina or Chad. The Gods judge Us harshly, alive in Our Head, with quotes from old Scriptures from those long-ago Dead. We're worried that Pantsuits won't accommodate Fred. Aren't our Insides our Outsides when Everything's said? Pray, Prey, Pray!
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William Moses
We can probably all agree that safety is the prime directive on an airplane. I think we can probably all agree that a man with facial hair, wearing a dress and make up would be a distraction. Not that they are perfectly within their right to appear that way, But our current society would be distracted by such an appearance. So there may need to be some seemingly unfair restrictions in this environment for safety sake, alone.
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Guy Sutherland McLaren
I be confused, I have met two trans people in my 57 years as far as I know, 1 pre transirion, one post. I could understand their plight, it kind of even makes sense at times. I have met many many gay people, I can understand that, I have met people with kinks that some will find totally objectionable,
My lifestyle choices may be very vanilla, but I maintain as long as you leave the non consenting out of it, do what blows your hair back. But androgeounous non sexual people scare me, mainly because I cannot understand anyone that cannot decide what gender they are, and especially those that don't partake in nookie. That's just crazy right there.
In my mind there are trans people, gay people, bi people and straight people, the rest have a serious mental problem. Choose a gender that makes sense, A lesbian is still a woman, A queen is still a man, even those that have transitioned still have their original chromosomes, just because you cut your penis off doesn't make you a bird. That's programmed at the genetic level.
Am I saying don't transition or live your life as you want? Hell no, What I am saying is don't drag me into your delusions.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Guy - Every human begins life as a female. If the testosterone levels are high, the female developers into a male. If the testosterone levels are high at the wrong time the person is born as a male and a female or non-binary person. This occurs in 1 out of 200 births. So while this difference is not common, it’s not uncommon as either. I have yet to meet someone who can give a definition of what characteristics make a person male or female. And to make things more difficult we know there are super females and super males. Yes some of these people might have mental issues, but many do not and are you friends and you just don’t what sex they really are.
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Guy Sutherland McLaren
If I cop a quick feel, I can immediately tell what gender I am. As for characteristics, people are people and can vary from very effeminate to very butch despite their gender. xx and xy is where it's at.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Guy Sutherland McLaren When you cop a quick feel, just what are you feeling for? Breasts, a penis? There are "men" who have breasts which are much larger than some "females". And if you are after a penis, some "men's" penises can be quite small and there are "women" who have a penis.
As for xx and xy is being where it is at, you have some learning to do. There are nearly 30 variations. XXY, XXX, X0, XYY, XXYY, (supermale) XXXY, XXXX (superfemales), XXXXY, XXXXX (super-superfemales) and many there are many more.
If any of the chromosomes are duplicated (with the exception of X and Y) the developing fetus will die. The X an Y chromosomes are the only ones which we can have more than one copy of and survive.
With one out of every 200 live births resulting in a sex difference have you been tested to see maybe you are one?
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Pastor George Day
Douglas Robert Spindler, again I say, fix your 'James' telescope!
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Pastor George Day
@Guy Sutherland McLaren, you forgot intersex people in your list!
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Guy Sutherland McLaren
ahh yes Hermaphrodites are real as well
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Lady Celynia
Why is it that dressing has become such an issue? Humans have been on the planet for millions of years and up until the last 50 years or so (a blink of an eye in the time scale) humans have been able to dress themselves without issue.
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Keith Graham Ainsworth
I just read the post about a Jewish university not recognising a LGBTI club on campus and many said that it was their right and that the students should just go to another university. Now hereI am seeing the opposite opinion, the airlines set a standard for their employees and they should just change it to suit the workers. Why aren't people telling the workers to just find another job. Consistency people
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Richard Darwin Richards
We are! Fire them for non compliance already!
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Pastor George Day
@Keith Graham Ainsworth, maybe because LGBTI are a protected minority?
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Ann
I've had to wear some pretty bad uniforms but it's part of the job. We all have to suck it up.
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Robert J Giammarco
This entire post is very weid and all off topic, IMHO. I agree with Rev M. No matter what or how you want to have your surgery, you will always be either MALE OR FEMALE, that can NEVER change. You can not change the chromosomes, period You are only changing a form of yourself, or what you think you want to be. How you feel, and what you want to do, dress, act, speach, etc is up to each of us. WHY, then if you know that specific empolyment requires a specific dress code, would you even want to work there, knowing you will not be happy, and you want to wear clothing with a flair of feminism?You may feel comfortable doing so, but I guarantee, those you are serving while you are a male, but dress in a feminized manner, with a hairdo, nail polish, earings, jewlery, etc, would put many customers off. They would not know what to call you or say. So your NAMETAG says "JUSTIN" but your dressed as a women, is your name tag going to now state JUSTINA? I do not care HOW you, or anyone wats to dress,etc. My point is that you are making it very dificult for the paying customer. NO one wants to be rude or disrespectful, but almost all the post here are eluding to problem during your life. Now, sudenly you want everything to change for you. what about us? Must we bow to your demands? NO. Again, you knew the dress code, as ALL the other ailines have them as well. So now, they will have to follow suite to please one person who wants to change the world for his view. It's not fair. GOD, IMHO, would say as he said " Render to Caesar the things that Caesars, and to GOD, the things that are GOD's, He made all of us to his image. He created a man and a women. Not each being half man, half women. Be thankful you came to your destination in life, whatever that may be for you, but it is not for everyone. You must realize that it is dificult for many people to accept this cahnge, j ust as it was for you to accept yourself.
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Pastor George Day
@Robert J Giammarco, is your suggestion that there's no such thing as gender dysphoria as a medical condition?
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Nicholas J Page
OK so answer me this What happens to a Scotsman who wants to wear the traditional Kilt etc is he going to be vilified because he chooses to conform to his clan Yes I have Scottish and Welsh blood although I'm British born.So at some stage if I was to wear my clans kilt etc will I be classed as weird Just thought this could be of interest.My best mate is Glaswegian and I have seen him in all his outfit especially at Masonic Lodge meetings addressing the haggis.
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Richard Darwin Richards
Don't mention Freemasons on this site that is full of atheists...
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Lady Celynia
Oddly enough you are comparing apples and oranges. A kilt is a traditionally male garment. Women generally don't wear kilts. So if a man wants to wear a kilt, he is wearing a male garment. Same with the comments about men in Asia and the Middle East wearing traditional male clothing that could resemble modern day womens clothing. In a sense, wearing a kilt emphasizes you are male. Wearing an evening dress says you are a man in a dress for whatever personal reason you have going on.
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Kevin Michael Zurrin
I grow cannabis commercially. I buy feminized seeds so that there are no male seeds. I assume that these seeds are either female or identify as such. Well, some of those seeds started showing male attributes and I let them grow because they were feminized and they at the very least identified as females. As these plants grew, they developed pollen sacks. I wasn't concerned because they were feminized. Now when the plants matured these pollen sacks actually had pollen in them, but I wasn't concerned because they were feminized. Then these pollen sacks released their pollen, and all my female plants were pollenated and have dozens of their own seeds, but I'm not concerned because I purchased feminized seeds and they're all female plants. When I tell people that my cannabis is all female, they think I'm either lying or crazy. Either way they don't buy it. So, as a commercial grower do I allow these so-called females with male attributes to grow with the females who have no male attributes? Is it bigoted for me to separate these females with male attributes from the true females?
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Interesting observation. All humans begin life as females. Some of of become male if the level of testosterone is at a high level at specific time during our development. In the plant and animal world there are thousands of life forms in which can switch from being female to male or male to female or be somewhere in between. Humans can be super females and super males. So no, you are not crazy. What you are saying is very common.
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Clay Serenbetz
I'm sure that a private business has the right to have its employees dress a certain way to meet the business' trade dress. Apparently, Alaska Airlines is working to make reasonable accommodation, which I believe is not legally required of them. If a person is unwilling to meet the employer's dress requirements, then they don't qualify for the job.
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Larry Mager
What I am about to suggest is not anti-gender, anti-LGBTQ: Make KILTS optional for business dress. After all, the British Army and some others have Kilts acceptable for uniforms. The only difference between kilts and Kilt dresses is that the kilt dress is made with a narrower waist than kilts. Eliminate High Heels from Business Dress (I saw women that worked at State Farm Insurance Home Office walk from their cars with a small bag carrying their High Heels, then changing into them at the door and changing back on their way home), and everyone might well be happy. It's something to consider.
Blessings everyone!
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Emma Lynne McFadden
A little of my own story. I tried for 32 years to live my life as a male. In my earliest memories things seemed wrong with my body. I got married in 2002 to my first wife. We were married 8 years. I married my second wife 11 months after my first divorce was final. Funny thing is that I said I would die before I transition. I almost did. While in the hospital recovering from my suicide attempt, my second wife came to visit only to tell me I had to find somewhere to go when I get out of the hospital and that she was divorcing me. The months leading up to that, I felt so trapped in my own body that I would come home from work, scream amd cry and beat my head off the wall. I lost over 100 pounds that year, I couldn't even eat. I would have constant panic attacks. I went to a therapist who didn't have experience with trans people. She drugged me up eo much I started hallucinating. Anyways, after my second wife told me that she was divorcing me I finally accepted who I am. I prayed to god to make it obvious which path he wanted me to take. At that point in time my life was ripped into little pieces. I even almost lost my job. After that prayer everything fell into place in ways that never happened in my life. Fast forward to today, I have had the opportunity to speak at Duquesne University multiple times, got to be in a commercial, be on floats in parades, in newspapers but most importantly I have had the opportunity to help others like me find their way. There is no price tag I could ever put on any of that.
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James T Wade
Thank you for sharing! Just be sure to keep God 1st :)
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Lionheart
Which one do you suggest, James, and what made you discount all the others? Didn’t any of the others have better morals?
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Lionheart, I bet James was talking about that immoral, christian god who they usually only call God, as if they atleast realize it isn't worthy of atleast a first name. We both know all of the other, well named gods have much better morals than that one, which came straight out of that filthy book they call the old testament.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@ Emma Lynne McFadden you should give a TED talk about your life.
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Lady Celynia
I was with you right up to the point where you emphasized that being quasi-famous is what is making you happy. It makes me wonder if in a past life you were some sort of celebrity in the day and you needed to find a way to recapture that.
Yes, I'm a strong believer in past lives and believe that sometimes there are echos of those lives that follow us into the present and cause problems. Good luck to you.
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Pastor George Day
@Emma Lynne McFadden, thank you for sharing. As a trans biological man, I understand fully what you describe. The only difference is that I chose to live my life as a man, though I dress and express myself in a way that asserts my gender dysphoria. We all have different paths, but a common God who loves us just as we are :-)
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Emma Lynne McFadden
I may or may not agree with all of you but I hope god blesses each of you.
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Lionheart
Which God would that be, Emma? Darn it, there are so many. 🤷🏼
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Brian Davis
That would be the God that you will only meet to be judged if you don’t believe
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Lionheart
I wonder if it's the same God you believe in, Brian? Wouldn't it be the pits if there really is a god, and we find out that it's the Islamic one, or even, Zeus, or worse still, Ganesha 🐘
A Google search tells me there are more than 18,000 gods that are, or have been, believed in, so if there really is one, Brian, we have a 1 in 18,000 chance of believing in the right one.
I wonder if there is an after-life judgement for choosing the wrong one? 🤔.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the Pope is going to be told he has been a thoroughly naughty boy for hoarding his $30 Billion 💰💰💰 and not giving it to the poor. 🤷🏼
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Pastor George Day
@Lionheart, what a thorough search! You clearly are looking for God... And you shall find him!
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Lionheart
Well, George, here’s the possibly the difference between us both. I’m always looking for truth. But, truth for me, has to be backed up with demonstrable evidence. As for you, I’m thinking you are possibly happy to totally rely on faith, and feelings, which wouldn’t stand up in a court of law.
The same goes for evidence of fairies, elves, Sasquatch, flat earth,…..right, George? We need evidence to prove they are real, don’t we? Unless, that is, you also believe in them.
Thanks for your thoughts though, George. 🤗
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Pastor George Day
Take a holiday, Lionheart, and contemplate the universe. You will conclude that the order in the universe is evidence of God being behind it. Then just try to contact him and see what happens. If nothing happens, I will credit you. But you know you must be honest and humble!
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Lionheart
Thank you George. As a founding member of an Astronomical Society in England, and as an Aerospace Design Engineer on the Space Shuttle Program for NASA, I think you’ll find I have contemplated the universe…..in great depth. I strongly suspect, George, that your contemplation of the Universe doesn’t quite match mine, but, being humble, as you suggest, I’m open to being corrected.
During my in-depth studies of the universe, I find I hold the same view as Carl Sagan.
“I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But as much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking.”
Carl Sagan
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
I just don’t care. Although I have always accepted homosexuality as ‘real’ and had no prejudice, and therefore understood those that underwent sex change operations, it currently seems like a fad. I will not ask about pronouns. I will, if told, make an attempt to use the desired pronoun, but if I make a mistake afterwards due to years of automatic decision-making on such usage, correcting me on such with ANY sort of ‘attitude’ will result in my telling said person to kiss my buh-tocks. And I flat out refuse to use ‘them/they’ in the singular case. Piss me off and I will use ‘it’. Not bc I would said person as an ‘it’ but just to piss them off.
I do see one potential positive aspect of this new fad though. It’s going to give the religiously delusional crowd some conniption fits.
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Troels Qvist
Personaly i feel People should wear WAF they want.... FREEDOM Troels
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Pastor George Day
@Dr. Zerpersande, I am one of those you call delusional, but for once I agree with you :-)
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Robert Gagnon
Many places of work have dress codes. If you don't like it do not work there. This whole non.binary, trans thing is not and never has been common among humans through out history. If you have surgically mutilated yourself to resemble the opposite sex, there may be limitations to where you can work. Back in the 60's Native Americans did not have to cut their hair for religious reasons. Many employers refused to hire them because of appearance. This new community is a very small minority that demands recognition and obedience from everybody else, regardless of our feelings or beliefs. There have always been gay and bi folks that are perfectly happy with there appearance, equipment and traditional gender clothing. Why do these few people in denial of their true birth identity (which is still considered a condition) get special treatment above everyone else?
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Emma Lynne McFadden
Transgender isn't new. Native Americans had 2 spirited people, transgender behaviors exist in all species of the animal kingdom. Pick any culture are there have always been gender non-conforming people. If you don't bwlieve me then do your own research.
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Robert Gagnon
Once again it is not common. Not a significant percentage, even among gay and bi oriented people. The current trend is a thoroughly misguided digital presence with emphasis on praising the most insignificant of maladies. You want attention, be as different as possible. Play victim (of your own making), cry for help, support, acquire followers, demand fealty. And for the parents that don't have the skills to guide their kids through the confusion of childhood, you should be locked up for chemically altering a child. At an early age children should be encouraged to love themselves as they are. Not to encourage abhorrent behavior, and justify hatred of who and what they are. Acceptance of what and who you are, and love of self is the basic building blocks of a healthy life. Denial of self leads to unhappiness and even suicide. Research that!
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Charlie Emerson Lawson
This small, close minded view of what other people should be/feel is what causes unhappiness, fear and can eventually lead to suicide in other vulnerable people.
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Pastor George Day
@Robert Gagnon, are you suggesting that gender dysphoria is a non-real thing?
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
You're right, Emma! It's like those Cherokees who answer to iether Daniel or Danielle.
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Rev. B
Speaking of the dress code in question, does anyone know what the objection to the dress code was? Employees had two options for clothing. Clearly neither were acceptable - is it a mix and match problem? I don't understand what the objection was, exactly.
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Richard Darwin Richards
Everyone should be forced to wear a unitard and that settles that!
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Richard Darwin Richards I don't think so. What if I want to wear males what to wear pink and females blue? Just like they did over 100 years ago.
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Richard Darwin Richards
They didn't have gender confusion that rules the day as we do now. People should be forced to wear a grey unitard or don't be seen in public.
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Lady Celynia
No, obviously you've never worn one or you would not wish that on anyone. Especially not on middle aged women that have to pee in a hurry.
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Richard Darwin Richards
They make unitards with easy access now.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Isn't it time we moved beyond dictating whether a man, or woman is forced to wear slacks and skirts. I understand the need for business dress, but leave the skirts out of it. So to speak. You know what I mean. Lol!
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Lionheart
If Jesus can dress in an evening gown, I'm sure it's ok 🤭
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Colleen McAllister
Lionheart, Jesus did not dress in an evening gown. He dressed in the normal clothes for a man of his time. I'm sorry you refuse to see the truth. Enjoy your life as this is the only one you are going to have.
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Lionheart
I really can’t believe you took me seriously, Colleen, but thank you for your reply.
By the way, I am totally happy to see the truth. Perhaps you could tell me what the truth is by quoting your demonstrable evidence showing the biblical Jesus, along with its stories, were real.
I will enjoy my life, thank you, and I genuinely hope you enjoy yours. You might be right that this could be the only life we will have. I guess we won’t know for sure until this one finishes. 🤗
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David Cox
Then it will be to late for you. The Bible is the Truth wether you believe it or not. It's your choice chose death or life.
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Lionheart
With there being so many abstract stories/tales, how did you determine the Bible to contain the truth, David?
How did you discount the Quran, Bhagavad Gita, Book of Mormon, and the Torah etc, when you read those?
Oh, but wait....I bet you didn't study those to rule them out....or did you? 🤔
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David Cox
God created the heavens and the Earth that's the very start of the Bible. You can believe what you want. But what if you are wrong and the Bible is true then you are in trouble. Maybe you should study the Bible more and study the history of the Bible and the scientist that prove the Bible by their findings. Archeologist findings as well. Jesus loved everyone John 3:16....but he will change you from the inside out....you must be born again...it's about relationship not religious.....those who are religious will not represent Jesus correctly....born again Spirit wants to follow God. If you walk in the Spirit you will not fulfill the flesh of the flesh. Jesus will come back and we will find out what the truth is...but sadly it will be to late for many....that's where free will comes in. People rather surrender to the flesh instead of God...they rather follow the world instead of believe what is right in front of us. My prayer is that you will give this some thought. God can change anyone but he will not make anyone do anything....surrender to God or to the world's thinking. Choose life or death
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Lionheart
Thank you, David, however, your statement saying "God created the heavens and the Earth" is only written in a book, written by many people who often wondered where the sun went at night, or at least with very little, to no, education. As a scientist in the USA, and in my formative years as an archaeologist in the UK, I am not aware of any factual peer reviewed papers that show any demonstrable evidence to back up your claims. In fact, quite the contrary, there are many peer reviewed papers that now prove evolution, which of course by doing so, totally disproves those anecdotal stories of the earth being only 7,000 years old, and geneticists now have sufficient evidence to show how mankind evolved from previous primates.
Those without that scientific background, and education, of geneticists, geologists, and even archaeologists, will discount those findings because if they do, it punches a hole in their "belief structure" that they've had all these years.
As an example, archaeologists have still not yet uncovered any demonstrable evidence for the existence of Moses, or even Abraham, so finding any evidence of an Adam, or Eve, to prove geneticists wrong is just not going to happen. There is equally very little evidence, if any, of the Jesus written about in your book. There is also a Nobel prize waiting for the first person on earth that can prove any god, even yours, is real.
I can see you like to just believe what you read without any supporting evidence, so I'm still curious as to how you discounted the readings and stories in other "works of scripture" of other religions? What made you decide those stories were false, and your books stories weren't?
Thank you for your reply.🤗
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart, the Bible is not a scientific book, nor does it claim to be. The book of Genesis is poetic in genre, and it must be approached as such. Your search for evidence starts with the wrong foot. You are not going to find scientific evidence about a poetic version of the truth. Adam simply means 'The Man and Eve simply means 'mother' - for they were the first man and the first mother. Abraham means 'father of many' and Sarah means 'princess.' They were just one of the many couples of noble Chaldeans that used to follow their own family god towards a promised land. There were many coming from Babylon, as the story of the 'Tower of Babel' reports. Abraham was a rich prince seeking a land on which to establish his kingdom. And I am sorry, but there is evidence that Moses did exist. His tomb was excavated and identified. As there is also evidence that the Hebrews (which means 'crossing over') were a people seeking for a land and protected by a powerful god known as YHWH (pronounced Yahweh). You simply need to do your research.
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Lionheart
Thank you for telling me to do my research, George. May I humbly suggest you do the same.
In the Biblical Archaeology Review, July 20, 2022, you will read, and I quote:
“Where was Moses buried? We don’t know exactly. Nor did the biblical writers”
We all know the stories, George, and that’s what they remain until we have good supporting evidence, and not just anecdotal information.
I know you try to come across as scholarly, but you make too many errors of judgement that lacks evidence, to validate your scholarship.
When you make statements like “His tomb was excavated and identified” you need to be able to provide recent data to support your statements, as I have done.
Thank you for your reply.
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart, you took me by surprise! I understand no one knows where Moses was buried, since I belong to those who believe he was ruptured, like Elijah and Enoch, and some believe even Mary, the mother of Jesus. Rereading, I realized I meant to say Joseph. I apologize for the confusion... with so much typing, I too get mixed up :-)
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Pastor George Day
@Lionheart, the Bible contains the Torah. No need for repetition.
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Lionheart
The differences isn’t really in the text, but how the text is approached and understood. English is a very exact language, it’s rarely ambiguous. Hebrew on the other hand, is a word poor language, which means that most words can have 3 or 4 different meanings depending on the surrounding context.
Therefore, English speaking Christians want to know THE meaning of the text. Whereas Judaism embraces the Hebrew and wants to know what possible MEANINGS can we interpret from the text.
Great example would be that the story of the serpent in the garden of Eden. The texts are the same, yet to Christians, the serpent can only be the satan/devil. To Jews, the serpent could be: a literal serpent, the animal/selfish desire of mankind, the satan, the subconscious, and the list goes on.
So in general, because of the simplistic way English is used where it’s harder to have multiple meanings, English Christian speakers often want a translation of the “Old Testament” that has only one meaning, and the inherent intentional ambiguity that exists in Hebrew is destroyed. Hebrew speakers enjoy the richness of the Torah and the multiple ways one can derive meaningful translations from it.
Thank you for your thoughts, George.
🦁❤️
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Pastor George Day
Hey Lionheart! How have you been? I'm back on the monastery!
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Douglas Robert Spindler
We know the Bible is a lie, thanks to a Belgium priest. This same priest is responsible for discovering the “Big Bang: and showing God’s children God got it all wrong in the order of creation for days 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and part of 7. One would think God would have gotten it right. And now with the James Web telescope we can see the beginning of time and that God really did get it wrong.
It’s statements like yours that young people today don’t want to have anything to do with the Christian religion. Could it be you are wrong and worshiping a false God?
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Pastor George Day
Douglas Robert Spindler, you keep saying that young people want nothing to do with religion, but churches like Hillsong and Elevation, and Catholic movements like Youth 2000 and the Catechumenal Way are just filled with Millennials and GenZ... You must have reached a reality on another planet with your sophisticated 'James' telescope!
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Keith Graham Ainsworth
Reality and facts don't seem to be of great concern to you given your evening gown comment
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Lionheart
Please lighten up, Keith, and please let me know the indisputable demonstrable evidence to back up your religious claims that you see are facts.
Yawn 🥱. I'm waiting.....
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Rev. B
Lionheart, I swear you are my favorite poster here. :D
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Rev. B
Lionheart, I swear you are my favorite poster here. :D
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Rev Mark D
Lion, I was about to say the same thing about southern Germany, Scotland, and India. A man in a full beard can wear a dress in Edinburgh, you ought to be able to serve me coffee on a plane.
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Lionheart
Very good points, Mark. ✅. There is indeed something very masculine seeing a Scotsman in full dress-code, with bagpipes. The same also goes for those from Ireland. 🤗
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Christopher Tracey Robertson
"I do not deal in problems, I deal in solutions." - Me
Solution: Unilateral Dress Code Regardless of Sex or Gender.
Practical Application: Every person working at Corporation X is Required to wear: Y uniform with Z modifications (No Modifications)
*No Cosmetics *Clean Shaven Head *No Scented Deodorant *No Exceptions Ever *Management Has 100% Authority to Modify Any and All Dress Code Modifications
$50.000 Starting Salary 5 Year Employment Contract Termination Without Clause or Severance
0.00% Fraternization Policy Employment Communication and/or Subject Matter
Now if you apply to my Corporation, you know what expectations.
Problem Solved.
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Pastor George Day
@Lionheart, I'm with you on this one! Bingo! :-)
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Emma Lynne McFadden
As a transgender woman, I feel people who identify as gender binary, gender queer or gender neutral makes my life more difficult. I feel a consequence of their identity causes confusion towards transgender people. However, my identity probably causes conusion among cisgender people as well. I honestly don't understand an identity of someone who identifies as in between or neither. I suspect my confusion is similar to that of cisgender folks toward transgender people in general. That said it helps me to better see things through the eyes of cisgender people. It is humbling and eye opening. The only comment or opinion I can truly say for sure is the bible says to love your neighbor like yourself. I always try to ask myself what would Jesus do and that is what I try to do.
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Lionheart
I wonder if Jesus really existed? 🤔 It's possible he did I guess, or someone like him.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Lionheart Many Jesus existed 2,000 years ago as it was a very common name.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Douglas, there are still a lot of people named Jesus in Spain and South America. Regardless of how they pronounce it it's still the same thing.
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Pastor George Day
@Carl Bernard Elfstrom, I used to have a student called Jesus Moses!
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David Cox
How many died and rose again?
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Brian Davis
One
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Lionheart
And your demonstrable evidence is where, Brian?
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@David CoxDavid None. Or all if you believe what is said in the Bible since they were all Jesus.
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David Cox
That's sad. After all that God did for you. But there is still time to turn to the truth and he will forgive you. As long as you are alive you have time. My prayer is that God will open the eyes of you understanding that he reveal himself to you.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@David Cox. Apparently God doesn’t listen to your prayers. Like so many young people today God and people who believe in the Christian religion is viewed and mean and evil people. They have no respect for women, they read in the news ministers and priests rapping young and women.
Like many young people today I do not want your God or anything to do with your religion. No need to prey for me and God doesn’t listen to you anyway. Why not do something more productive with your life then preying to a God who doesn’t listen or doesn’t exist?
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Pastor George Day
Hey Douglas Robert Spindler, 'rapping' young and women are 'preying' to a God who doesn’t listen or doesn’t exist?? You definitely must check that lens on your 'James' telescope! :-)
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I bet a lot of people named Jesus were crucified back then too. It might have even had a domino effect, while they continuously asked "Will the real Jesus please stand up, please stand up, please stand up".
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Douglas Robert Spindler
You are correct. And not much has changed in 2,000 years. There are many people in our prisons sitting on death row who claim to be Jesse the son of God. And Putin recently arrested Jesus, the son of God in Russia. He had a large following. I wonder how many people named Jesus, the son of God are in prison in Russia.
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Pastor George Day
Douglas Robert Spindler, how many of them have walked on water, fed thousands with only two fish, or risen from the dead?
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Lionheart
George, we don’t even know if those stories of Jesus doing those same things are true. You do understand that….right? And that’s if Jesus really existed.
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart, there is overwhelming historic evidence that Jesus existed. One must read his contemporaries' documents. Now, quoting CS Lewis: In claiming He was God, Jesus was either: 1) a liar, 2) insane, or 3) God. This is sometimes referred to as “Lewis's Trilemma.” Lewis's observation is not only logical but universally applicable, meaning that anyone who claims to be God is either a liar, insane, or God.
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Lionheart
Please tell me who you believe Jesus's contemporaries are, George, that met him and wrote about him? I'm looking forward to seeing your overwhelming evidence.
There is also a 4th that C.S. Lewis missed out. Jesus is either a Liar, Insane, God, or didn't exist, as there were many people prophesying around that time, some I understand claiming to be a messiah. I'll go with the 4th one. 🤭
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart, to deny that Yeshua of Nazareth was a historical man is the same as denying the reign of Queen Elizabeth II. You just need to do your digging. There's plenty of information out there.
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James T Wade
I believe he did exist and that while his task has yet to be completed, each of us have to decide what level of divine deity he holds in our life and world. If the quotes from him are true then he is who he said he was, a great profit or the greatest manic depressive of all times :-).
Shalom!
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Joy
I really appreciate your reply. And I agree with Colleen, too. Just dress to look nice if you have a policy. Dress how you want to. Unless you go to work nekkid. That could end up being bad.
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Colleen McAllister
Thank you Emma for understanding that gender situations are confusing for everyone. Work dress codes are necessary but should not be defined along gender lines. They should simply be defined as looking nice and not being disruptive or offensive to clients or customers. Uniforms should be neutral and wearable by any gender.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
‘Not be offensive’ isn’t going to work. Myself, I won’t find dress styles offensive. Silly perhaps, maybe into laughable, but not offensive.
However, the religious-right is going to lose their freaking minds. So there’s a plus side to this.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
This is silly, women have been wearing pants and men have most certainly have wear skirts and dresses for hundreds if not thousands for years. Take a look at the Pope, Scots, Pacific Islanders and Africans.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Douglas, none of the people you described are Americans.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
None of the people you described are Americans.... So? Why would that make any difference,
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Douglas Robert Spindler
None of the people you described are Americans.... So? Why would that make any difference,
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
There was a fad several years ago here in Japan. Boys in their teens/early 20s were wearing calf-length dresses over their pants. Never made up my mind how I felt about that. Didn’t look all that bad.
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flugo
'm a fad': Your deficient scholarship is blaringly obvious, especially in reference to the Bible!
What would Jesus do? Look at what He DID! He called sinners pigs, dogs, hypocrites, snakes, children of the Devil. He cried out for them to REPENT! He told us to rebuke the wicked; to rightly judge others.
The Bible instructs us to reprove, rebuke; exhort, and expose evil. All the foregoing involves discernment, evaluation and judgement.
I commend you for doing what Jesus would do.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Flugo, I don't think you're a fad at all. As far as I can tell you're one of a kind. And I'm truly grateful for that.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Emma Lynne McFadden Emily your point of view is that of a transgender women and is understandably biased based on your situation. There are several women who have given TED talks who were born with female and in addition to having a vagina, and female breasts, they were born with balls and a penis. They shared what there life is like having female and male genitalia, which is different from yours but just as relevant.
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Richard Darwin Richards
Rosie O'Donnel????
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Pastor George Day
@Douglas Robert Spindler, that is called intersex. Intersex people are not the same as transgender people. We transgenders identify with the opposite sex and need to 'transition' in order to feel less anxiety. Some do it by taking hormones and/or the final surgery, others like me simply choose to dress in a way that most resembles the gender we feel we are inside. Intersex people are born with both genitalia. They are two separate realities.
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Pastor George Day
@Emma Lynne McFadden, the answer to your question is in John 8:1-11. As a transgender biological man myself, I have real trouble with the 'tramsgender vide' we see in the LGBT agenda. It is a mockery of the real thing. I wonder if a 'non-binary' 'they' has really walked the floor with tears at night hoping to wake up with their 'normal' inner felt gender the following day. And, I'm sorry, but I am a student of Theology of the Body, amd my church is based on this ministry: gender and sex are the same thing. This idea that one is culturally defined is simply another vibe. As for how to dress, I choose to express myself wearing makeup and clothes that kind of stretch the realm of gender code. At work we have a diversity policy in place, so it isn't that much of an issue for me. If confronted with that, I would stand up for my right to dress as I feel I need to express myself, within the boundary of common decency.
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Rev. MichaelRS
2,000 years from now, when we're dead and in the grave and being dug up by some archaeologists, we are going to be classified as either MALE or FEMALE. Period.
Gender is not a social construct. What is the social construct it's all of these recent multiple new genders
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Tom
You're talking about biological sex, not gender. Gender is a personal view of ourselves influenced by norms, behaviors, and societal roles expected of individuals in our society. As humanity increases its knowledge, our understanding of the world evolves to reflect our new knowledge.
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Troels Qvist
For sure 🤙now hang 10
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JaZe
By gendered attire I assume men wear trousers women wear skirts. How old fashioned! Not even nuns stick to that anymore. It s really silly.
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No it’s children who had poor to no guidance in life and are seeking attention and a place to be something other then lost. Like all people at one time or another there running away from themselves in hopes of finding themselves somewhere better than where they are now.