One of the most celebrated, brilliant and iconic physicists of our time has left behind one last metaphysical hot take. "There is no God. No one directs the universe," writes Stephen Hawking in his final book, Brief Answers to the Big Questions, compiled and completed by his family following his death in March.
The book was Hawking's attempt to provide insight into some of the most enduring and complex questions faced by humanity among them, the question of God.
"For centuries, it was believed that disabled people like me were living under a curse that was inflicted by God," he wrote, echoing claims made throughout his illustrious career. "I prefer to think that everything can be explained another way, by the laws of nature."
What Does the Future Hold?
The British scientist's musings don't stop with higher powers, however. Hawking also insists that alien life is very much real and out there in the universe waiting to make contact. He also claims that artificial intelligence is poised to outsmart humans and that time travel can't be ruled out as a technological possibility. And as far as space travel is concerned - buckle up: "Within the next hundred years we will be able to travel to anywhere in the Solar System," he writes.
**Scientific Skepticism
**
Hawking is not the first famous scientist to question the existence higher power. Albert Einstein penned a famous letter rejecting the very notion of God and religion a year before his death. And while biologist Charles Darwin and physicist Isaac Newton were both firm (albeit nuanced) God-fearing believers to their dying days, the famous Catholic chemist Marie Curie became publicly agnostic following the death of her mother.
Of course, there is a difference between having an informed opinion about the existence of a higher being and presenting definitive proof.
And so it's important to bear in mind that all of these brilliant scientists, including Hawking, are essentially providing informed guesses. The truth is that along with questions of time travel and alien life forms, there continues to be no experiment or scientific method to either prove or disprove any theories related to God specifically.
Is God a Myth?
It's possible that God exists entirely in the traditional sense as an ethereal being living in the heavens, undetectable and omniscient. Or perhaps Hawking was right, and God is just a human construct thought up to help explain the mysteries of the universe.
Then again, what's to stop God from appearing tomorrow in some yet uncovered glob of dark matter, expansive black hole, or pinpoint quantum particle? The cosmos hold countless secrets, the vast majority of which undoubtedly remain undiscovered. On that note, Hawking's enduring message to all us cosmic truth-seekers is remarkably simple:
"Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet."
221 comments
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Daniel
Within our time-based experience we tend to follow an underlying linear presumption. Beyond the limits of our linear-minded expectations we may find that the experience of “things” is more circular in nature. Like moving from a flat piece of paper onto a Möbius strip ( a length of paper with a half twist with the two ends joined - moving a two-sided and four bordered reality into only one side with only one border) where the polarities of “matter” are merged into one.
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Daniel
A few more thoughts regarding the limitations of our usual ability to perceive: It’s generally accepted that we exist within a 3 dimensional universe while a flat piece of paper is more 2 dimensional. If we trace our finger along the surface of the paper the paper experiences a 2-dimensional linear “awareness” of our finger. But if we randomly take our finger on and off the paper the paper is not “aware” of how the finger “magically” appears and disappears. Now - in looking closer at the paper we know that, because of the molecular structure, the paper is actually 3 dimensional, but that our “elevated” existence interacts with it as being simply 2 dimensional. So, in extrapolating on how an “elevated” existence compresses the 3 dimensional paper into a 2 dimensional experience, it could also be reasonably concluded that our entire 3 dimensional reality could be compressed into a 2 dimensional experience by an even “higher” “elevated” awareness. So, again, advances in science (discovery of molecules and atoms) proves how limited our perceptions are and that we have to allow for a “higher” awareness that interacts with our entire physical “reality” in the same way we interact with a “flat” piece of paper. Not the same as the Flat Earth Society. More like a “flat” cosmos that we experience as 3 dimensional awareness, but which can be experienced as a 2 dimensional interaction by an “elevated” awareness: which, from our limited perspective, could be referred to as “God”.
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Jack Gerber
Daniel your comments about our limited perception are excellent. We have seven sets of physical senses but imagine for a moment that you live in a world where everyone is color blind and you have color vision. How do you think your preposterous claim that you can see color would be received?
For what it's worth, there are more senses than the physical ones and things that are apparent to those senses are generally regarded with skeptical disbelief by many. This makes it very difficult for people who have these abilities to convey what they perceive and to be believed.-
Daniel
I agree with your observation that there are more than the physical senses. I think that within the reaches of our true selves’ expanded senses our current perceptions are only limited by how much awareness we can squeeze through the funnel of our brains’ capacity without overloading it to the point of blowing a fuse. That’s why I often use analogies like the earlier ones I posted (Yahtzee, a homestead with a tower, pieces of paper, and a notebook or Möbius strip). It can be easier to grasp while allowing for further exploration on an individual gradient. I also used the word “imagine” with multiple layers of meaning. It could be simply viewed as just forming a mental picture, but it share the same root word as magic: magi. The Magi were once considered as wise or enlightened people who saw more than most others. Thus, “magic” was used to label phenomena that most could not explain due to the lack of awareness. And miracles were simply unexplainable phenomena, or magic, attributed to an unseen magician people called God. So to imagine can also be a process where we enter ourselves into another realm of perceptions and possibilities; the imagination (I-magi-nation). Though for many imagination is only the realm of individual speculations.
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Daniel
I agree. We tend to experience reality like a drop of water falling towards the surface of a lake. Our bodily senses are limited to the physical awareness input. However, even in a time-based reality there needs to be polarities to “balance” the illusion of time. As such, the easiest initial “shift” in perception is to imagine experiencing reality as an air bubble rising towards the surface of the same lake where the drops of water are falling. Again, where “imagine” and “magic” both have the “magi”(those once considered to be wise and enlightened while seeing/doing what most could not); and how “imagination” can be a doorway to the I-magi-nation.
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Daniel
Another side note on how “magic” was the term used by those who could not perceive nor explain the phenomena created by a Magi. Thus, “miracles” were attributed to the magic of an unseen Magi who people tended to refer to as “God” - even for the unexplainable magic, or miracle, that created our cosmos, and everything on this planet.
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Daniel
It is true that religious arguments often turn in to school-yard tactics like kids arguing their dad is the strongest. Even so, in the same way that the advances in science have increased our awareness beyond the limits of former scientific “fact”, we should also consider how our increasing, but limited, awareness has effected how we define “God”. For example: science and God could be compared to a large homestead with a tower in the middle. Looking at the homestead from the first floor people would have a limited view for defining what the homestead consisted of. Whereas, over time, as we climb the tower the view increases and the definition of the homestead expands. Of course this is NOT the same as the school-yard tactic of increasing a claim on how strong our dad may be: “my dad can push a car all by himself!”, “Yeah, well my dad can push Two cars by himself!” etc. to the point of someone claiming their dad can push all the cars ever made. With science we prove how limited our awareness is. For example we know we are surrounded by radio waves we can’t physically sense, even though a radio can tune to many different stations. Thus, if science confirms our limited physical ability to perceive than we have to concede that our ability to develop our science is also limited, and that we could also be surrounded by any number of undectable “things”. So science has proven that, if nothing else, we have to allow for the possibility of a “god” that is currently beyond the reaches of our limited physical senses and science. Also note that though Steven Hawking claims to prove there is no god he professes a faith in advanced alien life and the eventual possibility of time travel; which many would place in the same category as unfounded fairy tales - like others do with some people’s faith in their being a God. I think that within the realm of speculative physics there is the possibility of a unified theory which includes a timeless “God” that is far beyond the reaches of current religions reliance on school-yard tactics that amount only to self-serving boasting; Or to the Comicon rivalry between Batman and Superman.
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Richard
Daniel, I understand your thinking how ever you are wrong on a few points. I do not think Stephen Hawking ever said that he had 'proved' that God did not exist. His belief was that the universe was not directed by God. His final belief - and it was only his personal belief - was that God did not exist. This was based upon his scientific exploration of the universe and his knowledge of the forces that helped it to develop. Also science has not 'proven' that we have to allow for the possibility of a God. As many have stated on this thread, science is not about proving things. It is more about discovering things which may be used as evidence of something further. His belief is that the cosmos came into being at a single point where time also started. There was no 'before' big bang and therefore no time or point where a creator could have existed. Personally I find that a strange belief to have but it is only a belief found from an absence of further knowledge - not a proof.
My belief (for what it is worth) is that the big bang was only the latest big bang and that perhaps many have happened in the universe like bursting bubbles in a pond. Just that they happened so far away we have no way currently of detecting them. How it all started? I have no idea!
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Daniel
The article quoted Hawking as stating “There is no god” and no one directs the universe. But the article also said his opinion was, at best, a guess. So, your correction is duly noted, that Hawking never claimed to prove god didn’t exist. My conclusions about science “proving” that we have to allow for the possibility of a God are based on logical extrapolation of what science has already proven: namely, our limited ability to perceive. I suppose you are right though, as the logical extrapolation would be: 1) Science has proven how our physical perceptions are limited. 2) Though science has increased awareness beyond our physical senses our limited senses and awareness limit the extent of how far science may reach beyond our physical awareness. 3) Given the limits of our physical senses and current science there may are likely endless untapped possibilities we aren’t aware of. 4) Those untapped possibilities may OR MAY NOT include some type of God. So, it would be more accurate to conclude that science has only proven the possibility that there is OR ISN’T a God, while not being able to say one way or the other. Maybe at some later time our physical senses and/or science will expand to the point of being able to reach a firm conclusion, but not for now. I like your idea about multiple big bangs - I picture fire-crackers going off all over the place that go unnoticed by the microcosmic awarenesses existing within each BANG. Which leads to the concept of overlapping universes that stack like a multi-verse notebook: where pressing to hard when writing on one page/universe can leave impressions on the underlying page/universe. Again - nothing our current science can prove, but still something to imagine.
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Jack Gerber
That was very well put, Richard. According to my sources (which are outside the scope of this discussion) you are quite correct and there were ten Big Bangs with this one being the latest. And there will be nine more to come. Things won't end then but the model I use has nothing beyond that.
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Richard
Daniel Yes, I think we agree and at worst are arguing semantics! I think your idea of one 'universe' pressing down on another has some merit - rather than pressing maybe it has a gravitational effect and eventually sucks some matter into itself increasing its mass and beginning the process of collapse and thereby beginning the process of another BANG all over again.
Of course, this still does not explain exactly how life started but it certainly opens a few more options. I have never been comfortable with the theory of random creation of the universe and this theory really does nothing to answer that other than to increase the size of the problem.
Thanks for the image though! I now see the universe as a huge firework display although a VERY slow one.
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The Doctor
While I cant know truly what such a mind as this mans imagined nor conceived of, I do think as Ive pondered this issue now no few days I may have a glimmer of an idea of what he is trying to get across in perhaps too complex a way for most.
All of the major religions today worship deities imagined by people and cultures that among other things imagined the earth as the center of existence, that the universe was empty but for the lights in the sky that where often viewed as the physical manifestation of gods, angels etc. That the believers and re writers of these so called holy text are effectively ret conning their gods and the powers and capabilities of them constantly.
Its really not unlike how comic book super heroes grow more and more powerful as time and new writers take over. Superman originally was little more then super strong, super senses, and could run faster and jump higher.
Now he is able to fly fast enough to spin the earth backwards and magically reverse time rather then cause an end to all life on earth and likely throw the earth off into space as a rogue planet.
The god the church leaders that persecuted and condemned Galileo is not the same god that church worships now because now they say that god created all the vast universe, all the stars and planets out there, and that earth now spins around the sun rather then the opposite.
On the surface it may seem the same god. But it literally cant be. When such blatant retconning occurs in every other form of writing, and film etc, people are quick to point it out and call it out for being something different then what it was.
But the leaders of these faiths want us to be so witless that even when they are changing the capabilities and creations of their so called divine maker the followers just nod their heads and go oh yeah our god is the most powerful ever.
The more I think about it the more I see how religious zealots are alot like comicbook fanboys. You try and tell a superman fan that batman can kick supes ass and see the rage they fly into, and the mental gymnastics they do to ignore canonical stories that clearly show batman out witting superman and beating him black blue and bloody.
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Daniel
Science and God are not mutually exclusive. Considering “God” as manifest in the laws of nature we could say that science has not evolved to the point of recognizing or embracing all the laws of nature. For analogy: our current science is like playing Yahtzee with only 3 dice instead of 5. Somethings can still be done and “proven” even though you couldn’t prove that a Yahtzee existed (5 dice with the same number). Then some one like Christ, or others, comes along doing “miracles” and others say they’re cheating when they are really just playing with the otherwise missing pair of dice (“par-a-dise”). Just because our current science is missing the pair of dice (par-a-dise) doesn’t mean that the laws of nature exclude the existence of a Yahtzee (God). Of course some people prefer Parchese, Clue, checkers, or chess, but I haven’t come up with any analogies for those yet.
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Daniel
It should be noted that God is not the same as religion. Religions may profess a belief in their version of God but that is simply one possible interpretation. My interpretation is that everyone and everything is an individualized expression of God and that beyond the illusion of time the “fragments” of God are united beyond the time-based illusion of separation. Thus, the purpose of life is simply to develop our individualized expressions of the One eternal essence. Based on that definition, it you want proof of God then stop to smell a flower, shake the hand of a stranger, and look in the mirror.
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Donald Blaesser Sr.
It doesn't matter if GOD or Jesus or Moses or Mohamed or Buddha or whoever exits. It is all a belief. If you believe it than it's true if not than it's not true. No matter what your belief is; ITS A BEFIEF. The only result that science will be able to ever come up with is if GOD exits. Otherwise it remains a belief. If science does prove there is a GOD than we all become believers.
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Ed
I like the NewsBoys film: God's Not Dead. A college student, using other scientific minds, counters Hawking's beliefs.
Even "great scientists" have other scientists that can offer counters to their arguments. It's telling, what ULC decides to publish on it's site.
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Secretary3rd
Which God do you want? Whose God do you want? My Entity says there are only Gods that man creates. Once it was for everything around him. Then it became a smaller number as man saw the world in a real light. Who needed Gods to explain the wind, what is above the clouds or below your feet. What is the smallest that my eye can see, then if I use a microscope what is the smallest that I can see? If you need a God to exist then go for it. It does me no harm. If you force me to believe in your religion then by all that is possible I shall bring down upon you all Hell that I can muster. As I tell my congregation. I might have a time getting you into the After Life, but I can easily make your life while alive Hell on earth.
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I.S. Johnson
This question seems to cause a great deal of debate. I find the entire thing pointless. To atheists I say more power to you, disbelieve as hard as you can. However, isn't a disbelief in something a sort of tacit admission it may exist? I one is sure something does not exist it would be out of your thoughts unless brought up by another. As to science proving G_D does not exist, it is ultimately impossible to demonstrate and therefore unproveable. My favorite point is that whether you or me or everyone believes or disbelieves in G_D, that point has no bearing on G_D's existence. We each must come to wisdom by our own road. We are all going to the same place but we each travel a private path that is ours alone. I have no doubt about creation and its creator. Those who do may want to withhold judgement until say about ten minutes after their current mortal vessel has ceased to live. Its bound to be an eye opening experience that will make you wonder what all the RELIGON HAWKERS were talking about. No flames and lakes of fire . No pearly gates and roads of gold. Just others souls to teach you what you need till you have to come back and try to get it right. You do not have to believe me, just wait till you pass from this life and all will be revealed, again. Arguing about it is really quite futile.
Meanwhile, I will keep on doing my time in this material grind.
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Bill Huffman
No huge essay here - Believe, or not. Love one another, or not. As for my and my house, we will follow The Lord. I hope whatever your decision, you are at peace with it. We are. Love you!
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flugo
Excellent!
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Vee
I see God in the stars all the time. I believe the shining brilliance that pierces me deeply is the "God" portion of the stars, both seen and felt simultaneously. God is seen by everyone, everywhere all the time, and felt by some in ways that defy description, not science.
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Bob
"God" is a myth, a contrivance created by man to help explain the unexplainable. As we learn more and more about our world and the universe, the "power" of god shrinks. Religion and gods (and angels, fairies, demons, et al.) are merely superstitions. Sure, some people find comfort in their superstitions, but they are not real. They only exist in the mind of the person who believes they are real.
The real danger is the fact than mankind discovered long ago that religion can allow those in power to control society. Followers of religion have caused more pain, suffering, and death over the centuries than can be conceived. When governments use religion and its principles to control society, democracy turns to theocracy. Freedom of religion hardly sounds like freedom if you must only be free to follow the state's religion--or, if you choose reason and deny religion completely.
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Richard
A bit harsh! It sounds to me as if you have had a run-in with religion - and lost!
The difference is faith and/or proof. And this exists regardless of which side of the argument you are on. The believers in God obviously have faith and many will claim they have proof due to individual occurrences in their lives etc. But scientists and others also have a degree of faith in the direction of their endeavors and also have empirical proof of their discoveries by repetition and physical evidence etc.
Neither one proves or disproves the other - yet.
As somebody commented earlier it is like comparing apples and tandem bicycles.
Live and let live.
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Jacqueline
There is a creator , but as most want to define God ... it’s within each one of us. We all have the divine source within if we care to look through consciousness!
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M.E.Holt C.N.
I'm so sorry for him. He's obviously wallowing in his ignorance and rejecting a better life in the future believers will enjoy. Men of science will never prove God doesn't exist although many have tried. It's a waste of time to try to prove God is real to a person without the ability to feel How.
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Chery Esau
If you do not find what you are looking for within, you will never find it outside of yourself. From Charge of the Goddess.
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Tom B
Chery...i agree...Tom
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A druid
As interesting as this discussion is, the facts are that physics and religion are not diametrically opposed, they are unrelated. Science and philosophy cannot be logically compared. By analogy they are not apples and oranges, rather they are apples and tandem bicycles. Just sayin'.
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Ruberita Bandihai
If he was looking for God with math, of course that's make sense. But how can you find out math with math??
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Bill Fox
I've read "A Brief History of Time" and many versions of the Bible. Mr. Hawking failed to explain "how" his theory happened. There are no consequences to disbelieving Mr. Hawking.
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Rev. Emmett
For me, it's simple - God is the answer. Without creation, there is no man, and therefore no science. Science is man's attempt to explain the unexplainable to those who cannot accept the truth whether through faith or reason. So for me, the answer always comes back to God. Peace upon you all.
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Lionheart
What are you smoking? It must be goooood!
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Rev. Don
I just know there's a God because he changed me from a rotten Center to a Christian that really tries harder to do the right thing and I know we can't see him but I can feel him I feel the love and the peace I couldn't come up with that on my own I can't see electricity but I can see what it does but mostly I can feel that electricity to know it's there I'm not comparing God to electricity but let me tell you not too many things work without it and I know he loves me to give me what he does and I love him to give him what I do is to living worship and adore him
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BE
The chances of the universe not being created by design have been estimated to be so astronomical that the theory has been discounted by many scientific observers. The theories now being presented are primarily based on intelligent design ranging from ancient alien civilizations seeding humanity genetically to the (GULP) possibility that God may actually exist and is not only the Creator but has historically been directly involved in human affairs.
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Richard
Please tell us the names of these 'scientific observers'. As an astrophysicist working on the structure of the edges of the 'known' universe with contacts on 4 continents that is certainly not a view supported by my peers. I would be interested to see their published papers.
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BE
Hello Richard
What a great job being an astrophysicist! Do you have a website that I could follow or do you have recommendations for sites that could be followed and understood by a casual reader? Please let me know.
Below are several links to the information you requested.
https://evolutionnews.org/2007/05/scientists_who_support_intelli/
http://www.ideacenter.org/contentmgr/showdetails.php/id/1207
https://www.discovery.org/id/peer-review/
I have a few more that I will post when I can
THANKS
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Richard
Hello BE Thanks for the links.
Firstly evolutionnews and discovery are the same organisation. Their sole purpose is to push the intelligent design idea - not to investigate it.
The ideacentre is the same but was set up by a collection of students with the aim of promoting the idea that life was created by another intelligence. Note that I say IDEA not evidence.
These do not qualify as credible sources in my opinion. A credible source is one that has no axe to grind and no predefined agenda which avoids certain views.
I do not have a 'job' as an astrophysicist - I merely have a masters in it. I am consulting and exploring data with other astrophysicists on different continents which involves analysis of large amounts of data collected by the worlds observatories and freely available. I assure you, most of the analysis is deadly boring. I am officially retired.
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BE
Which of the scientists listed have "axes to grind"?
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Jim Cooper
I believe in God. My wife of 45 years passed away a year ago and although we weren't religious, a few days before she passed she said it would be okay because she loved God and she knew God loved her. God will be my salvation as I know I will be with my wife in Heaven for eternity.
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Indira Allfree
I disagree in that we are our own Divine , soirit beings rubniru this planet. We create our heavens and we create our hells. Both exist in our own minds. As do God and the Devil. He -she , gave us the knowledge and the free will to choose who we served in our minds. The focus and the only true reality is that we care for our minds and our bodies as these things hold the secrets to the Universe wiyhin the spirit. You cannot feed it hatred, junk and poisons. You cannot Rob it of it's nutrients. It is born to feel the process of dying. That transition to it and a life led in goodness is the best path to feeling the infinite information sealed in our heart of hearts and minds eye.
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Richard
I agree - I think.
Further... Maybe We (the human race) are God and heaven or hell is the world we leave for our children. If we live by that but are wrong then any caring real God will find a place for us.
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John Owens
It's amazing that a human with so much intelligence can be so blind to what is in front of them all the time. The mathematical formulae by which we measure and calculate the physical universe and the properties of matter should be more than sufficient evidence that there is a higher power. Matter didn't give itself those properties or set itself in motion. The odds against a single protein forming on its on by chance are greater than the number of atoms in the known kosmos. Protein cannot make itself, without DNA, and DNA cannot live without protein. No number of eons of time passing can change that.
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Richard
What rubbish! And the world is flat. No number of eons of time passing can change that.
Oh. Hang on. The passing of time did change that.
Science cannot and is not trying to prove or disprove the existence of God. It is following its own discoveries on a further journey of discovery. Nobody knows where that will take us. You believe what you will but please do not use scientific terms or odds (that have never been calculated ) to support your argument.
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John Owens
Richard, your response shows you are loyal to those who have taught you, and that you have faith in the institutions of "higher learning". Now, kindly stop assuming that because you don't already know something that it cannot be correct.
The calculation has been done (not by me, of course), and the odds are something like 10 to the 164th power against. If that doesn't seem rational to you, picture an ideal environment for one protein to form:Stock the ocean (which entirely covers the Earth in the scenario) to capacity with all 22 amino acids (formerly thought to be 20, then 21, now 22 with the discovery or isolation of pyrrolysine). This could not happen in nature, but just to illustrate, oxygen, nitrogen, perfect temperature, every ingredient and environmental condition optimal for the formation of protein. The aminos (as if they have a PLAN) would begin to join randomly.
Oh, and we have to block the harmful rays of the sun so the aminos are not damaged by them.
The acids would have to try to bond to try to create a chain or strand of 150 (ONE protein-- TITIN) in human muscle tissue contains over 30,000 in one molecule).
Since all of them are in full supply (which is not really possible), they bond rapidly but not often in the correct order to make a protein. Only 1 out of each 5 attempts at a single bond would be correct, and it would have to be correct 149 times in a row to make one chain. If one bond is out of sequence, the chain is destroyed and a new one starts.
Six thousand million billion trillion trillion attempts would take place every minute, worldwide, so in 4.6 billion years (Earth's oldest estimated age {as if anyone knows}). the number of chains that do not hold will exceed 10 to the 58th power. It would require 10 to the 164th number of trials to build a single protein of a chain of 150 of the 22 amino acids now known, possibly longer.Now, I know that is all theoretical, but if you can rationally refute my OTHER observations, I am more than willing to consider your refutation.
I will ignore your flat earth rubbish because there is no reason for it, unless it is aimed to ridicule me somehow, even though neither I nor anyone else has ever brought it up as a point of discussion. It was silly, shallow, and not germane in any way. Time did not change anything there except the perceptions of pagans. Isaiah the prophet knew the Earth was round, and spinning.
I look forward to your response.
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Richard
John, you are right that I am loyal to to those that have taught me and the institution where I studied for my Masters but I do not take their teachings on blind faith. In fact one of their teachings was to question everything. I do not accept that the number of atoms in the universe has been calculated - it has been estimated to be 10 to the 86th power (one of a huge number of estimations) but even this is hydrogen atoms only. This is also based on the estimated number of stars only and does not include any planets, gas clouds etc. It also does not include the (again) estimated 1 atom per cubic metre of free space. The point I am making is that these are all estimations and not calculations. Admittedly, the estimations are better than nothing and give a flavour to the problem.
With the above in mind, there cannot be a 'calculation' of the odds - only an estimation.
My field is deep space astrophysics. I am working (part time now as I have recently retired from full time) on the potential differences of galactic structure at the outer reaches as opposed to galaxies such as the Milky Way. One of the things we find (annoyingly in a way) is that we are not working as close to the edge as we thought maybe only yesterday as others find more and more distant galaxies.
A fast emerging theory (or rather a re-emergence of a previously 'known fact') is that the universe IS actually infinite. As a scientist even I do not feel comfortable with that word. It means we have no comfortable number to put on it and opens a whole new can of worms.
The reference I made to a flat earth was made more in fun than malice and was there to show that 'knowledge' changes over time and what is known as a truth today can become an ancient myth some time in the future.
I look forward to your reply Peace
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Richard
Late last night I spent a good amount of time replying to your comments, checked it and then submitted it. Everything looked good. Checked today to see if you had responded and ............. nothing. No comment appeared from me and so of course no reply from you.
So I will try again. I was not trying to ridicule or insult you. My apologies if it did offend you. My point (which I think you knew) is that the eons of time did change the view, which was previously a fact according to the 'experts', that the earth was flat. Many firmly held beliefs have been shown as science has progressed to be false (and vice versa). The calculations that you refer to are all based on (self confessed by the experts) estimates. The estimated number of stars is 10 to the 23 power depending on which current estimate you believe. The number of atoms is estimated at about 10 to the 80th power. The number of galaxies, stars within those galaxies and average size of the stars are estimated. No allowance in the estimation is given for planets, gas clouds and quite importantly I believe, the estimate that each cubic metre of free space contains 1 atom of hydrogen or equivalent. The possible atomic density of dark matter is not considered - possibly because we are talking about the visible or known universe.
As each year passes and telescopes become more powerful the estimates increase An estimation has to remain just that until finite data becomes available.I do dispute that your comment about it being evidence of a higher power. I concede that the evidence does not prove that life was created in or by the universe but that lack of proof just shows a current lack of understanding as to how it happened.
The fact is that the cleverer we get the more we realise that we know very little of the origins of the universe. That is what drives science on - not to prove things but the voyage of discovery.
I await your comments with interest.
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Richard
I have posted 2 replies to your comment John but neither has yet appeared although I later posted a reply to an earlier comment of yours which has appeared. Is it what we call Divine Intervention?
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Richard
Retrying. Late last night I spent a good amount of time replying to your comments, checked it and then submitted it. Everything looked good. Checked today to see if you had responded and - nothing. No comment appeared from me and so of course no reply from you.
So I will try again. I was not trying to ridicule or insult you. My apologies if it did offend you. My point (which I think you knew) is that the eons of time did change the view, which was previously a fact according to the ‘experts’, that the earth was flat. Many firmly held beliefs have been shown as science has progressed to be false (and vice versa). The calculations that you refer to are all based on (self confessed by the experts) estimates. The estimated number of stars is 10 to the 23 power depending on which current estimate you believe. The number of atoms is estimated at about 10 to the 80th power. The number of galaxies, stars within those galaxies and average size of the stars are estimated. No allowance in the estimation is given for planets, gas clouds and quite importantly I believe, the estimate that each cubic metre of free space contains 1 atom of hydrogen or equivalent. The possible atomic density of dark matter is not considered – possibly because we are talking about the visible or known universe. As each year passes and telescopes become more powerful the estimates increase An estimation has to remain just that until finite data becomes available.
I do dispute that your comment about it being evidence of a higher power. I concede that the evidence does not prove that life was created in or by the universe but that lack of proof is just that.
The fact is that the cleverer we get the more we realise that we know very little of the origins of the universe. That is what drives science on – not to prove things but the voyage of discovery.
As an aside, and I have not checked your figures (and not sure that I could anyway) can you answer the following which I ask with no edge whatsoever. Referring to your figure of 10 the 164th. This is the number of possible combinations that could be wrong - yes? The same as 1 in 52 of turning an Ace of Spades. Using a repetative selection the average would be 1 in 26 attempts to turn the Ace (sometimes first and sometimes last etc. Would this mean that the average then of your figures would be 1 in 10 to the 82?
I await your comments with interest.
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John Owens
I would submit that the complicated formulae used to describe and explain the properties of matter, gravity, inertia, radiation, etc. are very strong EVIDENCE of some highly intelligent and powerful designer. None of those properties could perform according to the complicated algorithms otherwise (in my humble opinion).
In biology, the encoding of information by the medium and use of DNA is so advanced as to be frightening. Now, as I understand it, DNA tells proteins how to behave and to grow, but it cannot do anything without those proteins. The proteins cannot be grown without the DNA. One could never have originated without the other. To imagine that they spontaneously occurred by accident is a kind of denial that has no connection to reality at all.
In fact, given all the knowledge and technology accumulated by humanity throughout the ages, we still cannot combine chemicals or matter to create life. The only source of life thus far, is pre-existing life. The EVIDENCE says, all life came from prior life, thus matter and biology are evidence of a life-form that pre-existed the beginning of matter.
As far as the actual math goes on those exponents, I would never claim to be mathematician enough to do those actual calculations (if I COULD, I would not have the patience), but suffice it to say that the odds against any viable protein forming on its own are so astronomical to be perfectly logical to declare it impossible.
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John Owens
But I would agree that lack of PROOF and/or lack of evidence are not PROOF of anything, one way or another. It comes down to a matter of perspective.
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William Wickersham
To Stephen Hawking, and all none believers, the reason you can't find "GOD" is because you are looking in the wrong place. Quit looking to the Universe for "GOD" he is not there. He told you that the kingdom of "God" is within us. Start there and you will find him. There is no mathematics about it. So Stephen look inside of yourself with a open heart and you will find him.
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Lionheart
You are scary! I bet you believe in talking snakes and a talking ass....right?
You can get help.....seriously! There are many in recovery that have been right where you are. They also used to talk to an imaginary friend, so there is hope.
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Phil greytak
As an atheist, if you had a choice when you die, would you prefer nothingness or Gods afterlife?
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Shih-po Tao
I'd rather to choose nothingness, because it attracts me more.
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Kieron
If you can't find proof of God, your not looking hard Enough!
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stephen kennedy
Please post some of the proof you are referring to. Thank you.
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Gary Minnis
Sunsets for one thing. My son's laugh. The love I feel in my heart. Any number of small things that happen everyday.
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Lionheart
Sunsets are proof of God? A laugh is proof of God? You seriously need to visit Africa where there are children who don't know what a laugh is. Some don't even know what real food looks like. I think you'll find that your philosophy wouldn't wash with them. Their sunsets could mean their last. You seriously need to wake up, you've been indoctrinally brainwashed!
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caz
I don't know whether god exists or not, I need certainty to say that I know, it must be the scientist in me. Hawking was a scientist, and he should have required certainty to make a statement like that, otherwise he should not have made it. There are a few people that consider themselves scientist who state with certainty that god does not exist. Ironically, there are many priests, monks, and other religiously learned people who would state that they do not know with any certainty that god exists
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Richard
Quite simply, there is a LOT we don't know. Sometimes I wonder if life as we know it is part of some kind of cosmic practical joke intended to get us arguing amongst ourselves.
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Secretary3rd
Gods become nothing only when people no longer needs them. At one time Egypt had 3,000 Gods. None of them are here today. What ever you need to believe in to make you feel good about yourself do it. You can question, but a Muslim can not question any part of their faith or their head would roll.
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Della Vest
I believe in God, for my own reasons. Just because He is "undetectable" to some, or on a "scientific" basis right now, doesn't mean that will be forever so. Science has its limits-and we see it expand those limits every once in a while. Science and Belief are intertwined, not opposing sides. I don't know too many scientists who would think you could prove something doesn't exist. They can only discover what DOES exist, manipulate it, all sorts of stuff, but they've never POOF invented a new thing out of thin air. They only discover. They discovered that we are, indeed, made of some star ingredients, which was recorded in Genesis long before our scientists told us it was okay to go ahead and think that. Scientist can be wrong (often have been) can be manipulated by money or fame, just like any mere mortal that walks this earth. I listen to what they have to say, but I remain skeptical.
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John Owens
Thoughtful comments, Della. Thank you for sharing.
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flugo
Thomas is correct! Hawkins DOES know now what his eternal destination is . . . . as we, too, will upon our demise. It's either heaven or hell, guys . . . . and it's to our peril if we don't seriously consider it! Jesus is our ONLY 'passport' to heaven!
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Lionheart
Absolute rubbish!
By the way, I hear a rumor that the organizers of Hell have doused the flames in place of bits of Lego on the floor. Damn! They hurt!
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Richard
Well that is over two thirds of the worlds population consigned to Hell then.
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flugo
Correct! The Bible has numerous references to the 'eternalness' of death. And, the 'etched in stone' forever destination of our spirits. . . . . . . depending on our meeting, while on earth, the loving, righteous God's expectations in Christ, our only Savior..
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John Owens
b0blf, I am not picking on you but, don't you find it the least bit strange that there is not one scripture that SAYS, when a person dies, they go to heaven or hell? I just think it is amazing that so many believe that, and yet the bible doesn't say that.
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flugo
Over 50 mentions of hell and hundreds of heaven in the Bible.
In Luke 16:20-31, the rich guy died and went to hell. This is reality and not a parable. And in Luke 23:43, Jesus promised the the dying thief on the cross that he's be in paradise soon. Paradise is synonymous with 'heaven'
But there are numerous other Biblical references concluding that there are two possible destinations upon death.
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Thomas William Cornfield
Well he knows now
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Lionheart
There you go, making stupid comments that you have no idea whether they are true or not. Ohhhh, I get it, it's your belief structure, right?
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John Eftimiades
For me, these word spoken by Steven Hawkins speaks volumes over why people "need" to have faith. He stated "The belief that heaven or an afterlife awaits us is a "fairy story" for people afraid of death." This guy lived from his early twenties with an incurable neuromuscular disease. He was told every step of the way he had a brief time to live. Never once did he fear death. His greatest fear was not getting the time to do the things he wanted to do. Despite his obvious afflictions, he pushed on and lived every day as it were his last. We could all learn much from this.
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John Owens
I think I understand him not fearing death. I have known a few people who welcomed it. If you have to live in fear of anything day after day, you will eventually get tired of being afraid. I wouldn't presume to say that is the only reason people need faith, though. Not everything is utilitarian. Many, if not most people are taught by either their parents or their societies to believe in something, either Chairman Mao or Uncle Ho, or physicists or God or their government or something.
I know the definition of death-- the cessation of life. I know about what dead people dream-- nothing. They are dead, decayed. Their brain-waves have ceased, along with their pulse and respiration.
The hope of a resurrection has been diddled with and modified over millennia into something ridiculous, cliché, and boring, but that is the nature of humanity--as a whole, we prefer myths and legends and escapism over reality. It affects our abilities negatively in so many ways-- we have trouble perceiving truth or simple solutions because we desire to believe in the myths. Yet, it also helps us in many ways: we sometimes trust our family and friends beyond any evidence that they are to be trusted. That can be good or bad, but human love for other humans usually demands a little forgiveness and a little denial from time to time. It helps us not be so dismal, bitter, and pessimistic. We are able to be happy and satisfied with less.Still, this man was an exemplary human, even with his sickness. If you believe in blessings, he WAS blessed, with a powerful and well-developed mind. We could all learn some things from him.
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Richard
I agree with everything you say there. As I get older (birthday today actually) I do not fear death itself although I have a slight fear of the method of my demise. I think everyone, regardless of whether they believe in God, believe in something - even committed scientists who tirelessly search for a proof of their research. You cannot worry about everything - it would drive you crazy, literally.
Stephen Hawking lived his life (at least since his early twenties) locked inside a nearly useless body but never lost his humanity. His sense of humour spilled over into mainstream television and gave strength to countless others who had similar disabilities. Long may he be remembered.
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flugo
The majority of you guys' postings on this subject remind me of the verses in Matthew 7:13,14: wide the gate/broad the way (occupied my the majority) that leads to destruction; and straight the gate/narrow the way (few on it) that leads to life. Your criticizing, ignoring, and/or maligning the Bible and its loving, living, righteous God is a result of your view of Psalm 14:1. Your eternal well being is at stake!
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flugo
It is amazing how the majority of you guys are fulfilling the Scripture in Matthew 7:13,14: . . . . the wide gate /broad way (the majority traveling it) that leads to destruction and the straight gate/narrow way (few on it) that leads to life.
Your attacking/minimizing the Bible and badmouthing/ignoring the Holy God of the universe is to your own peril. Psalm 14:1 illustrates your condition.
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Brian H
Because a book tells me "You better believe me or you will suffer in unimaginable ways" is not, has never been, or ever will be compelling evidence that the contents of the book are true. That, alone, seems to suggest that the contents of the book are unlikely to be true. A threat, from an omniscient, omnipresent deity, in order to intimidate me into believing things that are fantastical, nonsensical, and sometimes immoral... if such a deity were to exist it would be best to avoid it.
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Jim
A lot of interesting comments. Hawking certainly is not the first scientist to deny that there is a god. In reviewing all the comments to date I find it interesting that those who say their is no god seem to try and belittle those that say their is a god. This is what I know, In my life I should have been dead several times. There is no logical reason for me to have survived. Yet here I am. I know that I cant see or touch air but I know it is there. I know what I believe to be true is true to me. I know that no matter where I go there I am. I know that tomorrow never comes. These are things that I know and are true to me. I know there is a god, for those of you who say there is not, there is not one for you. I have never tried to convince someone that God is real I don't have to because I see it everyday. If you cannot see it then you cannot. I will never try and convince someone that my god is the only god for who am I to judge. For me my god is the only god. I find it interesting that people seem to get upset about this subject. If you do not believe in a higher power so be it. If you think that the world just is and that you just are and there is no other thing after death so be it. But for those that feel there is all these things and try and live a life that sticks to a moral code (as long as it is not fanatical.) then leave them be to live their life as they see fit.
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The Doctor
Tell me should we leave the priests that molest the young be? Should we leave the abusive drunks who go to confession be? Should we leave the Parents of faith that wont take their kids to doctors be? Should we leave the parents that wont vaccinate their kids be and let new plagues arise?
When one begins down the path of monotheism, it always leads to a generation that would rather live by faith then reason. And without reason they may as well not even exist for otherwise they will act as dead weight on the rest of humanity.
Imagine any animal in nature losing its reason? The lion instead goes to wander with the water bison and tries to eat the grass. How long will the lion last? What detriment would it have on its species if it breeds and passes on such confused behavior before it succumbs to malnutrition?
I can say this much for certain. Animals that live to fulfill their reason are far better off without the socially transmitted mental illness of self righteous monotheism.
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Joe
There will always be bad people. Having faith and believing in something usually helps people to be better.
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Lionheart
Yep! As a child I believed in Santa Clause. So being “naughty or nice” was important to choose being nice to get presents. Sadly, many people grow out of that and replace Santa with another myth. It seems mankind never wants to grow up and choose for themselves to be nice with no pressure from an outside source. Both of these myths are based on fear.
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Jim
Lionheart, I do not believe in God because I fear him. I don't think that people believe because of fear. I ask you what makes you so sure you are right and I'm wrong. All of creation weather it be God or science is theory and cannot be proved. Why do you think your IDEA of creation is right and I'm wrong. Prove to me there is no higher power if you can. If you cant then let the people who feel compelled to believe in God alone. I admit that I cant prove that there is a god. but you cant prove there is not one.
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Joe
Whatever works!
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Lionheart
Actually Jim, people of Abrahamic religions do fear God. They are taught to fear him, they fear his judgement, they fear not being good enough to go to heaven, so many, misguidedly confess their sins "every week". All do that through fear. Utah is arguably the Prozac capital of the west. I've lived there, I've been a Mormon. I know first hand how people struggle to match up to their expectations. I know of teenage boys that have committed suicide because of not meeting religious expectations. I know of JW children that have died because of the beliefs of their parents, not their own.
Like everyone else, I cannot prove gods or goddesses don't, or do, exist. I cannot prove Fairies, Sasquatch, leprechauns, or the Loch Ness Monster don't exist. But what I see, are the ramifications and trauma of those who do have those beliefs. When I see Benny Hinn tapping people on the forehead, or waving his white coat, and watch people fall over with what is supposed be the result of the Holy Spirit I cringe at how religiously mentally sick much of mankind has become. When I see people being beheaded in the name off religion, I cringe at how stupid much of mankind has become, all in the name of religion.
So, as a secular humanist, I have a love for mankind, and if I can help just "one" person "think" about what they truly believe, and help them question that belief through "reason" I might be able to help that person get their thought structure back to where it was before they were indoctrinated from childhood. All children are born atheists. They have no idea, or concept, of God. We, us adults, do that to them. Shame on us for not speaking out to help those that are suffering from religion, or those in recovery from leaving it.
I now see this as a personal crusade. Hence....Lionheart
Be well.
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Jim
I can always count on you to respond to a simple comment with a diatribe of BS T. I wonder is it your reasoning that any one who believes in a god is a drunken abusive child molester. Do all that have faith keep their kids from doctors and stop kids from getting vaccinations. You are really one sick individual to sit around all day and come up with this BS. As for your Lion eating grass. Maybe that would be like Males lying with males or women lying with woman, How long would it be till they pass on such confused behavior and becomes extinct?
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The Doctor
As always Jimbo you show yourself to not actually have studied any of the scientific research that has been done on the so called gay gene.
It has become ever more apparent that it primarily arises in families that also are highly prolific breeders. For example say a couple each came from a family of 5 siblings, all of whom are heterosexual. each of them goes on to have 5 more kids each. Such a pattern would eventually lead to over population so by luck, fate, or natural selection the children in the next generation will mostly be Mostly male to reduce females to have the children, and many of those males will be gay to help reduce interest and males seeking the reduced number of females as mates.
There is also some mounting evidence to suggest inbreeding creates a higher chance of the gay gene. Likely as a response to end corrupted gene pools. and I dont mean simply close bonds. even distant cousins breeding seem to cause a higher chance of gay offspring. So all them southerners that like to marry them some young cousins to keep it in the family are likely killing of their family line.
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John D. Partin
I would like to read some of that evidence, if I may. I might like to pass it along.
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The Doctor
It is sadly all to clear that some cant understand that the stories in an archaic old book if they had any basis on the true structure of existence and the universe would ad least hold some logic that they clearly lack.
Take for example the myth of the days of creation. It states their idea of god created plants before creating the sun. Yeah that alone should be enough to make people wake up and use those pages for toilet paper.
Its also clear that even those that are attempting to adapt their faith, and understanding of science into something that blends they are ignoring or willfully misinterpreting what Quantum Physics tells us.
Take for example existence. What we call reality is based purely on our perception just like the artificial construct of time. We however understand that at the smallest scale all is made up of protons,electrons, and neutrons. That in different combinations they give rise to the elements.
We understand that not all the elements found on earth today were part of its initial make up, but instead that through bio chemical reactions the early plant life( algae helped to create the soup of advanced life on our world. And that in turn life created new types of matter.
To quote Master Yoda. Life creates it and makes it grow. Every day our world adds roughly 80 tons of plant life to it. Born of nothing more then sun light, and elements reconfigured into plants. That plants are the first step in the food chain.Life begets more life, and more matter for us to interact with.
We understand thanks to the brilliance of men like John Bell, that light quanta are entangled at the moment they come into being, and no matter the distance they respond to events the others encounter. That when firing single protons through slits they will still create a wave pattern across the target as if it was spayed by a shot gun blast of quanta all at once. This is as close to proof as we can get that the very building blocks of all matter are aware on some level of our perception of them. For it is only when observed that they behave as particles rather then waves.
For those struggling to understand, its like water turning to ice because we look at it. The universe itself every single particle in it reacts to perception. Until then it is just shadows on the wall.
And no this isnt god as god is defined by the various faiths. This is something greater then any story imagined.
There is no denying our universe was born in a massive release of energy.
Now I am just a theologian and meta physician by practice and at most a novice in my studies of the sciences. Yet its as obvious to me as the sun rising with each new day, that the archaic concepts and myths of the old religions while a source of historically valuable material in understanding past societies, should not be part of modern cultures that want to progress rather than stagnate.
Its easier to buy into the marvel comics idea of beings like Thor and other so called gods then to buy into what self deluded men like VP Pence hold up as their guiding force and divine master.
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John Owens
It is true the Genesis story says Elohim created plants before the sun, but the first thing added to a dark, water-covered Earth was LIGHT. "Elohim said, 'Let there be light, and there was light, and Elohim saw the light that it was good, and called the light DAY, and the darkness was called NIGHT, and the darkness and the light were the first day.'"
You see, the sun was not necessary. Elohim provided the light, at first, according to the story. Plants do not specifically need the sun, so long as they have the necessary energy which is normally provided by the sun. One can grow marijuana or tomatoes in a basement, as long as grow lights are used.
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flugo
'The majority' of you guys clearly demonstrate the validity of the Bible passage in Matthew 7:13,14 which describes the 'broad/wide' way, occupied by 'the majority', that leads to destruction. And, the narrow/straight way (few on it) leading to life.
The eternal word of the living, righteous, loving God is eternal, perfect, and powerful. Only fools , to their peril, try to attack, change, and ignore it and its Author. (Psalm 14:1)
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Carl Elfstrom
Boblf, you sound like a broken record. And I mean a scratchy old 78 rpm that was played too many times on a gramophone.
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Carl Elfstrom
The All is all there is. And it all exists right now, in this present moment, forever. Us human beings have finite minds that weren't made to understand everything. That would take no less than total brain capacity, if we were truly made in the image of God. And if so God designed us to use so very little of our brains, for God knew that if anything other than God's self used all of it it would go completely insane. Ofcouurse, we aren't even the smartest creatures on this planet. To the approximately ten thousand thoughts we have everyday whales have just as many every minute. But what are they thinking about? Probably just eating fish, but who knows? They might be in telepathic communication with whales millions of miles away on other planets. Whales might even be our true gods. Ponder that, while smoking a joint!
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Jim D.
What are whales thinking? Swim, breathe, eat, poop. Swim, breathe, eat, poop. Swim, breathe, eat, poop. Swim, breathe, eat, poop. Swim, breathe, eat, poop. Swim, breathe, eat, poop...
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John Owens
You left out, "sing". They DO sing.
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Jim D.
Iconoclast, you're absolutely right. I'll fix it
What are whales thinking? Swim, breathe, eat, poop, sing. Swim, breathe, eat, poop, sing. Swim, breathe, eat, poop, sing. Swim, breathe, eat, poop, sing. Swim, breathe, eat, poop, sing....
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John Owens
Ahhhh! Much better.
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Rev. John D. Partin
What do dolphins and dogs and pigs and chimpanzees and birds and all other creatures and even ants and insects think, since they are all living beings? No doubt, they don't think on the level of human beings, but that isn't the same as their not thinking at all beyond just basic bodily functions. They do have curiosity and interest in their surroundings and can figure out basic problems and so that shows basic reasoning and thinking ability.
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Tom B
Respectfully...Hawking is right if the view of God is anthropormorphic, which is egoistic...God/universe is not a being in the sense of beings with which we are familiar....it is the ultimate eternal existence from which our illusory "lives" flow, and to where we return, over and over again...Peace...Tom
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Gary Hynous
Lots of comments on a discussion that is, was and always will be controversial. From my perspective, we are all eventually going to die and at the time of our demise all our questions about heaven, nirvana, hell and reincarnation will be answered. Problem is no person has ever come back to enlighten us. We have to have faith that all will be revealed at the time of our death and hope that we are right. Hope and faith are the operative words.Raymond Moody, a surgeon, wrote a book years ago ( title escapes me) in which he interviewed people he had operated on who were clinically dead and came back to life. They all had the same story about seeing all their dead relatives while dead and then having the choice as to whether to remain dead or come back to life. Another interesting work of fiction is "Methusala's Children". Talks about a race of people who were genetically endowed with long life and were hounded relentlessly by those with a normal lifespan to find out their secret.
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biblical scholar
If you dig into it, stephen hawking was a well known AI. It is not surprising the collective consciousness of machines would try and convince humans that there is no God.
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Randall Worcester
It’s not surprising that a devout scientist would not “believe” in God. They live by test and prove or disprove. There’s no “test” to prove God. So to them it’s only natural to dismiss what they can’t test. I know this though, he’s a believer now!
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Lionheart
So, please tell us how you "know" he's a believer now? I'm very interested in hearing your very educated logic.
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John Eftimiades
The Bible was written (and re written) by men. Men with specific agendas who had no concept of science or an understanding of how the physical world is. Studying the Bible is on a par with studying Astrology. If it helps you to feel grounded and at peace with yourself in the universe then that's a good thing.
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Pastor Dsve
I don't try to force anything on anyone so if you want to read the Bible fine if you don't that's fine too. But if you ask me questions i will try my best to give you the correct answer. If i do not know ill tell you i don't know. i will never make up something just to have an answer for you. So whst i would tell you is to read all you can and know for sure before you say there is or is not a God. when people ask ME to prove there is i tell them PROVE THERE ISN'T
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hsw
Men who believed the world was flat and didn’t understand where the sun “went” at night. But people rely on their explanations of things to order their lives. Ugh.
I’m fine with whatever anyone believes as long as they don’t insist that their reality is more valid than mine.
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Carl Elfstrom
The Bible makes good rolling papers, plain and simple.
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Carl Elfstrom
The Bible was written by delusional schizophrenics who medicated their mental illness with wine and mandrake.
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Jim D.
You make wine and mandrake sound like a bad thing.
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Pastor Dsve
This Steven guy wasn't as smart as people give him credit for. His super brain couldn't prove there was or was not a God. You have to find out for yourself. Study and learn all you can before you just go with any ol' story that someone feeds you. As a child I did that. I went with that THOU SHALT NOT EAT MEAT ON FRIDAY. Until I found out it's not even in the Bible. So be careful and know for sure what you are told is the truth.
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John Owens
Eating fish on Friday came from the Babylonians, I think. I read that in Rev. Alexander Hislop's Two Babylons (The Papal Worship Proven to be the Worship of Nimrod and His Mother/Wife, Semiramis) if I remember correctly. I subsequently loaned the book to someone and that was the last I saw of it.
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BE
Great Book.
Bought it at a yard sale. Making my way through it now. Very controversial in some religious circles.
BE
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John Owens
Yes. It is a very scholarly work and is anathema to most churches, pafticulary those who worship on any day other than the Sabbath.
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Carl Elfstrom
I bet Hawkins worshipped Mr. Spock.
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Jim D.
I bet Hawking worshiped no one.
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Joe
God is the creator of a grand design. The universe is not micromanaged by God. Good cannot exist without bad. The universe cannot advance without challenge. If you look at the worse things that have happened in the world, they have all resulted in advancement. Hawking himself advanced under the worst challenges. His scientific mind denied God but he had to be a man of faith.
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Pastor Dsve
Take it backwards. Everything has a beginning. So ask yourself were did that do called BIG BANK come from. Gas in space? ok, then were did SPACE come from. NOTHING just showed up out of nowhere. So that leaves only one answer. GOD HAD TO MAKE ALL THESE THINGS. SO THERE MUST BE A GOD THEN.
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Pastor Dsve
Sorry getting use to this new phone and the key pad
That' Big Bang. but you already knew that cause your're smart. Well then be smart and think this out. What ever made or who ever made that so alled bang to happen controls all things. So there has to be a higher source. GOD or call Him / It what ever floats your boat. But there Is a God in MY book. The devil is an other story LOL.
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Jim D.
Lack of proof is not proof of a god. Lack of proof is faith in a god, but faith is not proof of a god.
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Pastor Dsve
That's Big Bang but you knrw that. Anyway all things come from God because theuy didn 't just one day show up out of no where. If you want to go with this big bang thing then ask yourself what made the bank in the first place. Then go back, if iy was gas in space where did space come from. keep going back and you'll come up with only one answer GOD
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Joe
What part of "God is the creator" are you disagreeing with?
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hsw
Please explain why bad is necessary for good to exist. Facts please as you stated it as a fact.
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Joe
Ok here is a big one. You are a dinosaur happy ruling the land. By divine intervention or just some unhappy accident an asteroid, timed to the minute, manages to hit this rock on exactly the right spot to wipe you and all of your kind. Bad for you, good for the smaller survivors who evolve into us humans. And to add insult to injury our rotted dinosaur enviorment propels mankind into the spaceage. But don't get too cocky, the dino- juice will run out. Our numbers will dwindle from billions to millions or less with all of the associate hardships. Our survivors will write the next chapter.
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Carl Elfstrom
If they write the next chapter as good as Bilbo Baggins did all power to them!
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John Owens
It takes an IMMENSE amount of faith to believe in any of that, seeing that the Earth cannot possibly be that old, and that the fossil record does not even come close to verifying that.
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Carl Elfstrom
How can anything be defined without knowing its opposite? How can you define soft if there is nothing hard to measure it against, etc..
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Jim D.
Good and bad are matter of perspectives. For example, a lion kills a zebra: Good for the lion, bad for the zebra. 2008 real estate market crisis: Good for the bankers, bad for the homeowners. 2018 Superbowl: Good for the Eagles, bad for the Patriots.
You see? It's all a matter of perspective.
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Barry
Faith in God can get you by many issues in life. But as far as there being an actual God, All forgiving, merciful, etc, I find this questionable.Why is all the suffering allowed?
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hsw
It’s character building. (insert sarcasm font)
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Carl Elfstrom
It's called the law of karma, and we bring karmic debt with us from one life to the next, and so on. Suffering may be caused by that, or/and may lead to making us stronger, in this life or the next. Eventually, all things will be perfectly balanced, as they were in the beginning, in this single, very important thought of The All. Read the Kybalion by three initiates, on hermetic philosophy. I got my copy from Amazon.
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Lea Weisenbach
Putting your faith and hope into the invisual man..you will be disappointed. I've seen this many times and its so sad.
Every human being has faith and hope..We are born with it..
The fear driven idea of god is just not mentality healthy. Its a control thing..People just need to take responsibility for their happiness.
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hsw
I see people every day who, when confronted with proof that their belief system is false, create the most irrational rationalizations in order to continue with the fantasy.
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Carl Elfstrom
It sounds like some ministers are talking about the Christian god. I'm glad I don't believe in that one. I expect to see people of all beliefs and lack thereof, on the other side of the light. There is no damnation or condemnation. God is within, for nothing can be without.
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Jim D.
Ah, but Lea, you are forgetting. These people are never disappointed in their god because he comes with a couple of get-out-of-jail-free cards. When what they pray for does not come to fruition, they think one of two things:
- I'm not worthy.
- It's God's plan.
Either way, their god is totally blameless, and they go right on believing in the invisible man up in the sky. Very clever, these makers of gods.
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Cyndy Bennis
Everyone that has made a comment about if "God" exists or not. Quit debating his/her existence. Get off this site and go "live" your life as you please! Who cares about your opinion! And if your opinion is "right" then go make this place a better world...good luck! As we live in a in perfect world and always will until Christ's return....I guess I am an educated "simpleton"... using your words! You are judging people on their religious beliefs in "your small corner of the world". I live a fulfilling live in Christ and see people everyday who's hopeless has been changed by the hope in Christ. The homeless, abused, chemical abused and so on who had no hope. I don't call them simpletons! I live to be the positive change in this world! I hope you do the same!
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Brian H
You attribute the changes you observed to an entity but you cannot describe why the changes would not be possible without the entity. Just because you "feel" it's trues does not make it so. In fact, if you truly wished to know if your theory is correct you would choose to be skeptical of it. Test it, Observe the tests and see if the results could be achieved without a deity.
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Jack Gerber
That's a wonderful idea. There's only one problem with it. Have you ever heard of the uncertainty principle in physics. There is a similar, natural law that applies here.
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John Eftimiades
My sentiments are more in line with Voltaire's remark " If God did not exist it would be necessary to create him" Faith is a simpletons way of passing on responsibility to someone or something else. When I hear someone say they "have faith" I know I am in the company of someone who is more afraid of what they don't know, than confident in what they do know.
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Lea Weisenbach
So right.
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hsw
The world is full of people (many of them here) who cannot deal with the randomness of the Universe. They will seize upon the tiniest thread as “proof” that a god exists when the truth is that religion (and an all-powerful supreme being) are man-made constructs that exist, not to bring order to the Universe or express a universal truth, but rather to control the masses for the benefit of the powerful.
Sadly, it still works quite well.
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Jim D.
John, I agree with you, but I prefer not to think of these people so much as simpletons, but rather as weak-minded. Even a smart person can be brainwashed into believing in a mystical higher power.
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John Owens
Perhaps others, who claim to have no faith, are afraid of what they cannot see or prove.
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Tom
The great Hindu Philosopher J. Krishnamurti also answered the question "Does he believe in a God"? His answer was the same as Hawkin. People have been praying to a God or gods for as long a man developed the ability to reflect. The scriptures of east and west are actually history books. History books are written by the conquerors. Start believing in yourselves and treat everyone with compassion, understanding and love! Your mind(s) are the most powerful forces in Nature, use it (them). Instead of looking out there or up there start with yourself.
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Lea Weisenbach
Bingo!!
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John Eftimiades
Beautifully said
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Jim D.
Very true words that fall on many deaf ears.
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Minister Norman
I absolutely believe in a "Higher Power", an intelligent "SOURCE" to life. I and many before me, call it "TAO" and hail it as both unknowable on a Temporal level, but Supreme within the higher Spiritual Realms. Others call it GOD!
First, we certainly did not create ourselves, and a "Big Bang" cannot explain life, especially consciousness and intelligent life, as a "Something" emanating from "Nowhere" or "Nothing". So there must be a somewhere, that it all came from, with a SOMETHING, and an Intelligent Something, as it's SOURCE.
Secondly, Mathematics can model the Universe, and is being used for exactly that purpose. Mathematics also did not arise out of nothing, nor did or could anything else that "Exists". One can argue "What" the Universe is, but cannot argue its existence! THINGS & Space & Substance & Intelligence & Consciousness (and this is a scientific fact), must all be created by SOMETHING, and cannot and never have just "spontaneously erupted"! And Nature itself seems to be imprinted with equational logic & mathematical symmetry that cannot spontaneously arise out of nothing, and therefore, cannot otherwise be explained.
Fouth, I've had just too many personal experiences with symmetry & synchronicity & the spiritual to dismiss a greater Intelligence, and thus a profound purpose, and as such, a SOURCE of life, and thus a point to it all.
And finally, if we live, and then die, pointlessly, then why is there anything even remotely resembling intelligence or consciousness, let alone Morals & Values & Learning & Creativity?
If there is nothing, but this nothing, then there is also no point or purpose to any of it, and that is completely illogical!
Thank GOD for a Rhyme & a Reason! ?
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John Owens
Norman, we have clashed before on other subjects but we are not far apart here. Some of the things you mention here dovetail very closely with some of the things I believe to be proofs of God. Life can only come from life, and Law can only come from a lawgiver. The existence of DNA is a proof to me. DNA can do nothing without external proteins, which cannot be grown without DNA.
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Carl Elfstrom
God; the universe; The All is mental. Only mind creates. And everything is merely a thought in the mind of "God", which is also known as G.ood O.rderly D.irection ( pardon my intentional grammatical errors).
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Carl Elfstrom
Why is a good question that can never be answered, so what's the sense in asking? Just play the game according to the rules of society, and you'll at least stay out of prison.
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Joe
Faith never let's you down because you have faith to go on.
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The Doctor
Say that to every one that confessed to witch craft after being tortured. Say that to those broken on the rack during the inquisition and renounced whatever they were told to. Say that to the foolish young men that went on crusades into a desert land wearing wool and chain mail only to die of heat stroke.
Faith is fine as long as it does not over rule logic and reason.
Frankly if a god expects you to suffer for your faith that is a pretty shiite god
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Lionheart
Right on! T'Keren. I'm with you all the way. We are in this crusade together.
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Joe
Better to die for something you believe in than live for nothing. Everything we have came at a price. The price was often life itself. You can call those who have gone before us suckers or respect them for the contribution that they have made to your well-being.
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Lionheart
Joe: What makes you think those with no religious faith are living for nothing? I live to make the world a better place as best I can with no fears of religious dogma looming over my head. I know many others that are doing the same. You don't need religion to help make the world a better place Joe.
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Lee
God is love and love is God according to the revelation. God does not want or need praise or sacrifices. Mans purpose for being is to create life on earth as it is in heaven so that the kingdom of God will reign here on earth as Jesus said in his lords prayer. If we are not doing that, then we are not serving God at all; we are serving our own ego by standing with the multitude to reap the rewards of being a true believer. It is right to pray to God but when you do you should be praying to yourself to remember the golden rule and apply it without expecting a reward for it. I think I serve God in the same way that you do, by doing what I can everyday to make someone's day just a little brighter and their life just a little better if only for a moment,
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Plarp
The ULC is a good idea that, as usual, is slowly being co-opted by self-righteous bullies.
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John Owens
Yep. And they call the others bullies.
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Lionheart
Faith of course doesn’t prove anything, and we have no idea if there is really a god, a Santa Clause, a Yeti, a Loch Ness Monster, or a Bigfoot. Having said that, there does appear to be more evidence for Bigfoot, and a Loch Ness Monster than there does for any god.
As for faith, my children still have faith that Santa Clause really exists. One day they will find the truth that faith let them down due to lack of real evidence, just like the god myth.
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Rev. Buzz
The proof or lack thereof for a supreme being (God) of any kind can be debated endlessly. A more vital argument, even in the face of the almighty making him/herself known to all without any doubt, is - what reason is there to worship this supreme being. Sure, according to the scriptures, God created us and has the power to grant us eternal life or damnation. Those are characteristics that we could attribute to other humans as “playing God.” Throughout history, humans have elevated others to be kings and lords over them, because they were benevolent protectors, or we feared the power they could exercise over us. The God portrayed to us in the scriptures could, in human terms, be described as an egotistical, genocidal, child abusing, maniac. Egotistical, because of his insistence upon being worshipped and in very specific detail as stated in Leviticus. Genocidal, because of his wiping out all that he had created, except for Noah and his family. Child abusing for killing off his creations (children) to include his own son. Those who say oh, he didn’t kill Jesus. Think about it. Don’t the scriptures say; God so loved the world that he sacrificed his only son so that they may be saved. Who required the sacrifice? Who had to be appeased for this salvation to take place? It wasn’t the crowd or the Romans who performed the crucifiction. And just what kind of sacrifice was it for the deity to assume human form and be crucified, knowing that he was going to come back and still be God. It reminds me of a movie called Black Like Me. The star is a white man who darkens his skin to write a book about what it was like to be subjected to discrimination. When he told a person of color, that he now knew what it was like. The person of color said, No, you don’t know, because you always knew you could change back. So, what was the big sacrifice? Further evidence of God’s inhumanity (yes, I’m accounting for his not being human) to man and his child abuse, is his having the power to prevent disasters and desease that take the life’s of innocent babies. His visiting punishment on all the generations of Adam and Eve for their sins. His further display of his egotistical powers, by continuing to harden pharaoh’s heart, even after he was ready to let the people leave Egypt. All just so he could demonstrate through Moses, what other tricks he could perform. So, even after all of my tirade above, I ask, even if he does exist, what cause is there to worship him? If you think about it, the God described in the Bible is not worthy of being worshipped, by any standards. So, what makes us put so much faith in a book written by men, that describes a deity not worthy of worship? There in is the rub. The Bible itself is flawed! As I have said in other posts, just as the council of clerics came together in the middle of the fourth century to establish which of the many written scriptures were worthy of inclusion in the Bible and to determine if Jesus was God on earth or just a man, the hierarchy of all faiths need to come together and decide on a realistic understanding of what kind of God it is we are supposed to be worshipping. Otherwise there will be a continuing rift between those that believe and those that don’t or won’t. The evidence may not be yet known either way, but as described, do you want to worship God if existence is proven?
If something can be misunderstood, it will be, so I’m sure some will misinterpret the message I am trying to convey above. I will be glad to have a civil discussion regarding any clarifications needed.-
Jim D.
Rev. Buzz, your take on the subject is outstanding. Excellent.
The Christian God is worshiped out of fear... fear of eternal damnation and an afterlife in Purgatory. I am not a believer in gods of any faith. They all seem to demand and/or require worship, which to me, is the worst reason to worship anything. Any god worthy of worship neither demands or requires it.
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Brian H
The logic of that seems completely legit. Let alone that the burden of "proof" is on those that make the claim. Not on those who make no such claim.
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Brian Balke
I'm curious as to what you think the Bible records. As I read it, the days of creation and the trumpets of Revelation are cosmology, evolution, and paleontology. The Old Testament is a history of cultural development that parallels the stages of personal maturity elucidated by Eric and Joan Erikson. This conformance between science and scripture is compelling, and demands some explanation.
A mature understanding of God doesn't arrive until John announces "God is Love" - which is a tautology "Love is God." We go back to Genesis with this in mind and realize that when God "breathed his Spirit" into Adam, he was giving humanity the capacity to love - something pretty much unheard of in the Darwinian world. That is the only God worth worshipping - a God whose authority it is natural for us to surrender to, because the alternative - to live without love - is untenable.
But that still leaves us to ask "why?" Why invest so much attention in us? Close behind that is "why doesn't he pay better attention?" I.e. - why does he allow evil? To which the only answer can be: "That's life." Being alive means to encounter pain. As Siddhartha learned, pain is a signal from the world that something needs to change - so CHANGE YOURSELF. God grants us that opportunity.
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Carl Elfstrom
Some of us religionists can't imagine there not being a god. Although God cannot be proven to all, or explained in tangible ways, to those of us who believe God is proven to us in many different ways. Still, it is, and can only be, a personal experience. Knowing in God cannot be taught, or given evidence to substantiate. Therefore, there will always be believers and nay sayers. Personally, I don't care what anyone believes about it, but am content in knowing that I do believe in a creator, as well as evolution, and the big bang. And the letters in Santa put in a different order spells Satan. And I suppose St. Nicholas could be devilish. That would explain how he could descend into the chimneys of burning fireplaces. What I can't believe is that a bunch of elves make all those toys. They must be magically contrived. But I do believe in Pegasus. And if a horse can fly why can't reindeer. It all boils down to one thing: Fairytales, can come true, they can happen to you, if you're young at heart. So keep an open mind, and stay imaginative. If you do you'll someday join Mulder in saying "I want to believe". And one thing leads to another, as the song goes. [Lead a horse to water, it will drink.]
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Jim D.
Carl, can you share whatever you're smoking with the rest of us? It sounds like fun.
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Daria
Yes! Spirituality should be pleasurable! If you have the resources to spend time being spiritual, why not make it enjoyable? And since the Abrahamic Anthropomorphic God is, well, not at ALL fun as described in scriptures, I definitely don’t want to spend any time pondering him! The human imagination can take you to some wild and wonderful places, and paired with a direct experience with Nature, all sorts of wondrous gods/spirits/connections can be dreamed up and made very “real.” What’s lacking in the thinking of many great scientific figures and in that of many religious people is a certain subtlety of mind... A respect for metaphor, for human imagination and emotional complexity, and performing craftwork with our emotions and the mind-body connection can be very transformative, and promotes health and happiness. People can be way too literal!
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Brian Balke
Respectfully, Daria, we shouldn't confuse the evolving human experience of God with the nature of God. We don't impose the same rules on adults that we impose on children. Until you explain WHY the Hebrews propounded the laws they did (as commanded following the flood) it's not appropriate to criticize their Father.
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Joe
Faith and science can be diametrically opposed. There is still plenty of room for faith.
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Rev. Rene
I agree, tell me why God could not be the origin of "the Big bang"?
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Joe
If you believe that God created heaven and Earth then it goes without saying. Science is about proof. God can't be proven he has to be believed.
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Barry
Spot on
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Carl Elfstrom
The blind faith of little children proved to be caused by naivity. There has to be some thing to substantiate belief to the believer. "Out, out damn spot!"
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Rev. Brien
Joe I would shake your hand and buy you a cup of coffee. I have never seen anyone put it so clean and so correct. Thank you for proving to me that real people do still exist. Faith and belief are within, not without. These are things that make you better, not worse. If you are so limited as to be the see and touch person, then explain the dark matter of space. Physics proves it is there, yet no one can see it, touch it, or even study it with ant real result. But the true "science" people insist it is there. I wonder.....is that faith too?
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Joe
Thanks I was surprised at how much cynicism there is on this subject. Keep the faith. Joe
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The Doctor
LOL no its not faith, there is plenty if supporting data to support the theory of Dark Matter.
The fact you dont understand the difference between believing in the unseen vs feeling the wind blow or holding your breath underwater then observing the bubbles of air float to the surface suggest things about your way of thinking or possible lack there of.
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Gregory McClain Sr.
Every sprit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God D&C 93: 38.
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Brian H
But that is always the debate... there's something that science believes is there but cannot prove it. And the answer is "Yet". We once thought light was something it is not. We once thought there was no new world. We once thought so many things that we now know to be wrong. And... there are still things we do not know. But... using this to try to explain a deity? That seems tremendously weak as a form of evidence.
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Kim M
Hi Joe - I am a behavioral scientist and used to struggle quite a bit with this question. However, it is science that compels me to keep an open mind that God exists. There must be proof that a condition or entity (or otherwise) does or DOES NOT exist before you can make a claim upon its status. To my knowledge, no one, including the venerable Dr. Hawking has presented conclusive proof that God does not exist.
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Stoodie Baker
Kim M- I think you are confused about how burden of proof works. Burden of proof lies with those making the claim. I don't have to prove you wrong, you have to prove you're right. If the opposite were true, I could make all kinds of outlandish claims. Case in point: I have super strength, but only when no one is observing me.Last night I threw a baseball so hard that it's now in orbit in the asteroid belt. Prove it didn't happen.
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Leslie Hunt
Leslie Hunt
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Leslie Hunt
something so simple made so complicated , most people you ask will say thay are going to heaven . every nationality has a religion , and beleave in a way to God , so the real question is not is there a God buy whos religion , is right , the bible says (seek and you will find -knock and the door will be open -ask and you will receive ) witch indicates if you are truly seeking God that he will make a way for you to find him , many people are seeking a religion , this is just another one of satins distractions , we need to reinforce that it is a personell relationship with God thru the son by the holy spirit .
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Gina Sanacore
Truth. But in my mind there is some sort of God. Many years ago I was at extremely low low point and I asked God a question and basically it was a question that would have kept me from killing myself. Nobody knew I was thinking this way it was just between me and God. That night I had a dream that I was a little girl and he was a father. I can never see his face because the desk was so large. But I heard his voice he brought me a gift that was an answer to my dilemma, and he told me that I cannot base his love for me by what he gives or doesn't give me. I woke up that morning with renewed life. Wanting to live for no other reason then I felt like I'd loved me. So yes I don't know exactly what he's like but I know there's something beyond myself that I never want to be separated from. I embrace all paths that lead to God. And I believe that we honestly cannot believe in God. I don't think saying there is no God will separate us from this loving entity I communicated with. I have since wanted answers to two major situations in my life and been given an answer super naturally both times. Yes there's someone who hears me. My wish is for everyone to find their path to God whatever it may be.
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Kim M
Stoodie, I am a scientist, not a lawyer. In the realm of science, theories do not become proofs until there is conclusive evidence that the theory is correct. In a situation like this, we will very likely never be able to prove or disprove that God exists. Frankly, I believe that Maxwell's equation is a dandy if non-traditional candidate for supreme being, but I can't dismiss the options of God, Buddha, Allah, etc. because proof does not exist.
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Monrovia
You are a jewel in the crown of life. You deserve to be commended for recognizing the glass to be 1/2 full and not 1/2 empty.
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Brian Balke
I like this proof: taking the Bible as the source of evidence for God, John tells us that "God is love." This should be read as a tautology - "Love is good." This is what made Adam and Eve "first man and woman" - not that they were the first to have their biological shape, but that God breathed his spirit into them - he gave them the capacity to love.
So then we have to ask why we should trust the Bible. Well, Genesis is exactly what science tells us about evolution, and the trumpets of Revelation are what paleontology tells us about the great extinction episodes. The golden bowls are the disasters wrought upon the earth as we exploit the gifts that were laid in store for us to use in loving one another.
It's kind of hard for me to imagine how the writers of the book knew these things unless somebody told them. Given that the book is supposed to describe one nation's experience of God, I can't find any other explanation of the facts.
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Jamie
Amen Im in total agreement!!! Oh those of little faith!!!
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angela gale sawyer
Yes. God does exist! He wants to have a personal relationship with each and everyone. Jesus died for all people .But that's where faith kicks in. He died for our sins to take them all away. There were generational curses. But Jesus broke all curses and defeated all of the enemy that we can't see. Cols 2:15 1Jn3:8, and John 12:31 clearly states that He disarmed all principalities and Satan and all other powers that waged against humanity. Then God cast them out of this world. In it and away never to return. There is no more spiritual warfare! The battle is over. Jesus did it p .The cross. The cross was Satan's worst nightmare. It was the final battle. Reverence for back up. Holman s bible dictionary backs the KJ. Amplified. NIV. And many bibles. I crossed referenced to make sure. The Holy Spirit revealed this great mystery to us in the bible. If you would take time and read those bible verses and read them really good pray and ask Him to open up scripture to you He will. But also we have to look at the human body. It didn't create itself. If man made people then we would have cures for many diseases that have no answer how to heal. Look at the ocean trees. The Sun stars moon. Who else could have created such a beautiful world. Yes bad things happen. One thing that the word spoke to me was. Don't even talk about the devil and other evil spirits. They try to come back and put sicknesses on people. But believe that Jesus bore all sickness of ours on His own body so we could have a great life and enjoy helping one another. God is nothing but love. But you content to be under His wrath. Those who refuse Jesus will be judged sternly. My prayer for all is.. Thank Jesus for dying and making us flawless by the cross and forgiving all our sins .Just say thanks Jesus. What do people have to lose? They gain all His wonderful blessings. God bless all. I do not judge people. Its not my place. I don't force God on people. He will draw you to Himself. He did on the cross. So all people would live Everlasting all eternity life without Creator and maker father God Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Amen
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Joseph DePaler
It doesn't matter if God exists or not. It doesn't matter if Jesus exists or not. If you are a believer than they exists if your not than they don't. Its all a matter of belief not proof. Just because their may not be any scientific evidence, it doesn't matter. IT'S A BELIEF. Now with saying that if science proves there is a GOD than everybody will be a believer. In the meantime let us all have the right to a belief.
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Tim Stone
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ25Ai__FYU
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Jack Gerber
Joe, you said "Science is about proof." I found this quite fascinating since science is NEVER about proof. The idea of proof is something that belongs to law and belief, not science. Science never proves anything. The most science ever says is that as far as we know, this is the way things seem to be. It is always subject to further investigation. For example, Newtonian physics "proved" a great many things until Einstein came along and showed they were wrong. Science is about prediction. If you can show that a prediction is correct then you have scientific evidence. There is actually a tremendous amount of scientific evidence that points to the idea that there is an intelligence that we can call God although different people see this intelligence in markedly different ways.
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Plarp
Would you be willing to provide a link to any of the "tremendous amount of scientific evidence" you referenced above?
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Jack Gerber
The amount of scientific evidence is quite large but you can see an excellent summary of if with debate from both sides here https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-scientifically-approved-solid-evidence-for-reincarnation-1 and here https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-compelling-evidence-that-reincarnation-may-be-a-real-phenomenon
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David morin
Love your comment
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John
Why we would put more weight on the opinion of Hawkins than any other learned man, and I do not know. Faith is not "evidence based". Hawkins provided no proof or evidence that is possible to check. It is his opinion, based on what he learned, nothing more. I am a firm believer in science, nevertheless, there is so so much we yet do not know or understand. Keep the faith, if you have little practice the 10 commandments anyway and the teaching of Christ, it will make a better world John
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Brian H
Again, the burden of proof is on the person making the claim that something "is". Not on people who cannot see any evidence that it "isn't".
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Judy J. Lehrman
Agreed. Of course. I suggest that-In the beginning -When there was NoThing , only a void, the void became aware of itself, which caused a vibration- the word. "And the word was with God and the word was God." That consciousness which was aware continued and evolved into all that is.
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Jack Gerber
This is a fascinating idea but how can a void become aware of itself?
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T Kosse`
So where did god come from?
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T Kosse`
If everything in the universe (except energy) is made of matter, and, so, everything in the universe is made of atoms. An atom itself is made up of three tiny kinds of particles called subatomic particles: protons, neutrons, and electrons.
So it would follow that this so called "GOD" is also is made of matter, and, so, everything in the universe is made of atoms. An atom itself is made up of three tiny kinds of particles called subatomic particles: protons, neutrons, and electrons
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T Kosse`
So you all are praying to a higher being made of atoms that itself is made up of three tiny kinds of particles called subatomic particles: protons, neutrons, and electrons.
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T Kosse`
Or is "GOD" energy
Energy is not made of anything, energy is a term used to describe a trait of matter and non-matter fields. When matter has velocity, for example, it is said to havekinetic energy. There are also various forms of potential energy.
Does energy exist without matter? No matter what the interactions are, energy is never seen to exist on its own, but only as part of a system of particles, whether massive or massless. There is one form of energy, however, that may not need a particle at all: dark energy.
What does energy consist of? Common forms of energy include the kinetic energy of a moving object, the potential energy stored by an object's position in a force field (gravitational, electric or magnetic), the elastic energy stored by stretching solid objects, the chemical energy released when a fuel burns, the radiant energy carried by light, ...
Is matter made of energy? Scientists began to recognize that everything in the Universe is made out of energy. Quantum physicists discovered that physical atoms are made up of vortices of energy that are constantly spinning and vibrating, each one radiating its own unique energy signature.
Is an atom made of energy? Energy! At a pretty basic level, we're all made of atoms, which are made of electrons, protons, and neutrons. ... A lot of scientists think that almost all the mass of our bodies comes from the kinetic energy of the quarks and the binding energy of the gluons.
Does energy have a form? Examples of these are: light energy, heat energy, mechanical energy, gravitational energy, electrical energy, sound energy, chemical energy, nuclear or atomic energy and so on. Each form can be converted or changed into the other forms. ... Kinetic energy is the energy in moving objects or mass.
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Jeff Grippe
There is no god the way it is commonly thought of. Most major religions believe in an anthropomorphic idea of god in which god (usually male) has rules, desires, emotions, and a whole range of other human characteristics. This idea of god is 99 and 44/100's percent wrong.
Having said that, there is so much that we don't know, and even more that we are incapable of understanding. As a metaphor, think of trying to get dog to understand a traffic light. Even if you manage to train the dog to obey the light, the dog doesn't understand the light, how it was made, and what it is there for.
There certainly may be things beyond our ability to comprehend but that is as much as we can say about it. We can't comprehend it.
There is most likely not a man in the sky making demands on us.
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Jack Gerber
Jeff, this is a wonderful comment, one I have been aware of for a very long time. I too started as an ardent materialist but my approach was always as a scientist. I said, show me the evidence. I am perfectly willing to believe if there is some evidence. Then I found the evidence I thought didn't exist when I discovered that reincarnation is a very well established scientific fact not a religious belief. That led me to discover that there is MUCH more to all this than is apparent at first.
Your analogy to the dog seeing a traffic light is spot on! All of the materialist scientists are operating on the mistaken idea that we only have the seven physical senses (yes there are seven, not five) but it turns out there are a lot more that they neither know about nor use. If you do use them, a vast part of the world we live in becomes apparent.
One of the misunderstandings, of course, is the idea that the Creator is like an old man with a long beard sitting on a throne and running things like a king who can make arbitrary decisions. My own work has indicated this is simply not the way things work. Rather there are natural laws that govern these realms just as the physical laws govern the physical realm. Gravity doesn't arbitrarily decide that some things will fall down and perhaps on another occasion it may decide that someone made a mistake and doesn't have to fall down and get hurt. This would be ridiculous to suggest. The exact same thing is true in the higher realms. There are just different laws involved.
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John
The fact there are observable "laws" that govern our perception of reality dictates a Law giver. Gravity has been mistakenly labeled a law. Buoyancy and mass dictate the denser the object the heavier the mass. Thus the molecules in a feather are denser than the molecules in the air so it falls.
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Richard
With respect your above comment is based on a misunderstanding of physics. You are confusing terms like mass and heavy. Heavy relates to weight as a descriptor. Weight relates to mass AND gravity. (mass still exists in a weightless environment such as open space) Buoyancy is a measure of the difference between the density of the object and that of the medium in which it is being submerged. Understand Archimedes principle for further background.
To illustrate your comment about 'denser that air so it falls'. Why should it fall and not rise? True, the density of a feather will cause it to fall through air but only in the presence of gravity. Ergo, gravity does exist - exactly what it is is still up for grabs!
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Rev. Emmett
Without creation, man, and therefore science, would not exist. Without God, it all falls apart. Science is man's attempt to explain the unexplainable to those who cannot accept the truth. Besides, you cannot get something (universe, etc...) from nothing (void and nothingness). God is the answer - we may discuss and agree to disagree, but in the end.......God is the answer. Peace upon you all.
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Brian H
Other than the 1st few seconds of the Big Bang scientists have a pretty reasonable explanation of how thing became. So if a deity is hiding in those first few seconds.... that's not the deity that most people say they have "faith" in.
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JKM
Amen
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Monrovia
JKM: Perhaps you haven't been informed that 'AMEN' as we know it to be is an attempt to nullify the presence of the deity known from Ancient Egypt, as the "hidden and unseen source of creation. Hidden because of power seeking, conquest adores and war mongrels who have not learned to respect forces that are greater than their own. Love is truly a keeper of peace. With LOVE comes respect for the acceptance of what may not be comprehendable at this time which are basically stressed by hereditary misconception. Science, endeavors to maintain an equaliberium. Science can not afford to allow the mis- leading aspects of religiosity of so many diverse theories of God's anonymous existence to over-ride a nations common sense. Being Areligious is not to be tossed by every phenomenon is what Science owes to a community whose individual faith establishes their relationship to the entity respected for our failures and successes.
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Richard
That is a wonderful position to be in - God is the answer to everything so I do not have to ask questions. But tell me, if you cannot get something from nothing, where did God come from? What did he make the universe from? Whilst I accept that people have faith, I cannot accept blind faith. You should always search for the truth even though that may result in shattering your previously held beliefs.
Personally I believe that the big bang was only the start or restart of our current known universe and not the start of everything. I have little evidence to support that but equally I have little to contradict it.
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Lionheart
I believe in creation 100%. Man has created all the gods to satisfy those things he doesn’t understand.
I think the first created God was the Sun God because he didn’t understand what that hot disc was that came up in the sky every morning and went down at night, but he knew he could rely upon it every day, so he worshipped it. It was magic to him. He had no idea where it went at night but he knew it was going to come up the other side of the horizon every day.
If you don’t understand something, the created god has to be the answer. That is, until we do understand, then we move on to the next unexplainable event and use the same stupid logic.
It makes perfect sense to you doesn’t it Emmett?
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William Dusenberry
If Hawkings had had the same idea about God that Einstein did, he (Hawkings) would have been able to prove such a God. As Spinoza noted, God, nature, and the universe (cosmos) all mean the same thing; so if one can prove that the universe and nature exists, ergo, so does God.
One needs to fully-describe the God in which they profess to beleive, before asking if any others beleive in such a God also.
Gods, as any student of history knows, mean different things to different people; and Einstein and Spinoza's God is the only God I know of that's provable.
That's why I'm a Secular Humanist Pantheist.
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Reb TK
This is much like the chicken and the egg argument... it's a lot of fun, but we will never know. Maybe we should ask: " which came first, the dinosaur or the chicken...?" Here we are on firmer footing. We know from science and the habits of reptiles and other creatures... some young are born live, some are born from eggs. To our knowledge there are no avian descendants of the dinosaurs that give live birth to their young. They lay fertilized eggs. And they continue to do so. Over time, the animal itself may have changed and adapted to all kinds of circumstances, but this particular lineage, aka birds... lay eggs , which, if fertile, survives gestation, and is not eaten by some other animal, does in fact result in a bird. Or in this case a chicken.
The question then becomes: how do you like your eggs? And what is your doctor's recommendation for how you prepare your chicken so you can lower your bad cholesterol?
This is as much a religious argument and social commentary as any.
Peace...tk
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Ketch Winters
Faith and Science are opposed only because of the egos of humans as both are inventions of the mind of man. That however does not change the fact the The Creator exists. How we perceive The Creator is faith. Some have it, Some do not, But it changes nothing. A tree falling in the woods does make a sound regardless if there is someone to hear it. Science is the physical manifestation of the perceptions of mans current understanding. Understanding that is given by The Creator. What is a scientific fact today, may change later. It is up to The Creator to decide IF and How much understanding we are able to gather. The "Big Bang" That is just The Creator snapping Her fingers. Ketchakah - Medicine Wheel Ministries
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Lionheart
<<>>
So tell me Ketch, where are you getting your data from to support your “fact” that your creator god exists? Please don’t tell me that’s just your belief, because if it is, beliefs don’t support facts, unless you have the science to back up your belief.
Also, please don’t try and suggest that just because there are stars, planets, nova, comets, galaxies, trees, plants, oceans, creatures etc., are supportive evidence of any god. That just doesn’t wash, and doesn’t proove anything.
The best thing to support any proof of your god, as I see it, would be if it actually physically showed up one day like its supposed to have done in Old Testament days, but in reality, you and I know that’s not going to happen.... right? And for the obvious reason, it doesn’t exist! If you insist it does exist, the burden of proof is with you, or your god, to proove it.
We don’t know what happened, or existed, before the supposed Big Bang, just as you don’t know what happened before your mythical creator existed.
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Tim Stone
The Spirit is not of the corporeal world. You can't find God through the study of matter, even though Teilhard De Chardin wrote about the HEART OF MATTER. I guess it's how you interpret Energy.
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Daniel
If the “spiritual” were likened to fresh cow’s milk then the “physical” would be like a can of condensed milk. But - beyond the stars in the Milky Way this is also shown in the “heart” of matter When look at in the extreme microcosm.
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Daniel
The heart of matter: Though science has seen beyond the atom, to the molecule, and the quark, to what they call the “god particle”; there could be no “god” particle as the appearance of matter is only half the polarity of the illusion. One could hypothesis there are smaller and smaller particles to the point of infinity. As well as an infinite microcosmic “object”. However, bother micro and macro “object” could only be viewed by the space around it. So then, we could also hypothesis there is only infinite space at the microcosmic and microcosmic extremes. Again though the spaces could only be defined by the “object” of a supposed border. Now - take the infinite micro and infinite macro and put the through an “infinity loop” where EVERY infinite micro inverts to the macro. Now- once you get these two illusionary infinity loops (for illusions of the totality of either space or matter) have them intersect. It is in that infinity loop intersection where EVERY possible appearance of matter resides; where the intersection of two illusionary polarities create “reality” as we know it. This “intersection” establishes the one prime wavelength that recombined all the singular prime wavelengths at the “Big Bang”. This is also a, currently theoretical, physics basis for when Christ said “The kingdom of heaven is within”. Metaphorically AND Literally when the extreme introspection leads through the infinity loop “wormholes” to invert at the extreme microcosmic level. This also explains the current scientific struggle with how the randomity below the levels of magnetic polarity align. Thus - energy is the manefestation of the bi-direction cycling of the “space-wheel” and “object-wheel” through the infinity loop (also viewed as a figure 8 on its side). Or, you could say we live in a pixelated reality where every pixel is a wormhole that expands the the infinite microcosm. The juxtaposition of the space-wheel and object-wheel, which caused the Big Bang while forming our wormhole-pixel cosmos could only have originated outside of our time-based reality- Thus, some science that’s currently known, in combination with what would currently be called theoretical physics can lead to a logical conclusion that there must be some type of “God”.
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Daniel
A few auto-correct spelling errors in last post where some of the subsequent “microsmic” should have been “MACROcosmic”
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Judy J. Lehrman
Science isn't opposed to a creator nor a consciousness of the universe. And sadly, Steven Hawking is wrong & should not have used his science celebrity to influence anyone. He is NOT an authority on this subject. I'm sure he knows the difference now! God is not a controller exactly. Not a big-cheese ruler. Imagine this and then form your opinions, please. I suggest that- In the beginning there was NoThing, no space, no time, no energy, no consciousness. Only Void. Then the void became aware of itself. It caused a vibration. "In the beginning was the word (vibration-there was nothing to make an actual word sound with yet) and the word was with God and the word was God." That was the beginning of everything. Being aware of itself, began consciousness and that began time and energy. Electro-Magnetic energy. That is the source, God. Then the sound was possible, and that sound continues even now. We are each a bit of that energy, that consciousness which is God. Time and energy continue, God experiences all that is and guides it with conscious awareness of it all. Is imagining all the possibilities. All has developed and evolved from that. End of my suggestion.
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I just got back from a trip in my time machine. Just wanted to see how this ends. Now for the results, all the really smart scientist of the world have met at a convention and with all the data and results of their studies have finally proven that there is a God!!!! They have also discovered that God gave them the intelligence and drive to push forward with their studies in their quest. However, he was a little upset that most of them were actually trying to prove he didn't exist. But being the loving God he is, he said he would forgive them.
"God is Great, Beer is good, and People are crazy."