Her fate was sealed, her plane ticket back to her native El Salvador already purchased. But Rosa Gutierrez Lopez couldn't shake the overwhelming feeling of dread that had been ever-present upon receiving her deportation order. Lopez struggled to hide her anxiety from her three children, terrified by the thought of returning to a country where at least one oh her relatives had been killed and where dangerous gangs now control the streets. Worst of all: leaving the U.S. meant her six-year-old son with Down syndrome wouldn't get the special-needs resources he so desperately requires.
It was these compounded fears which drove Lopez, a 40-year-old Virginia resident, to a last-minute decision: she not go back. Instead, Lopez ignored the order and took shelter in a Washington D.C.-area church to avoid deportation.
"I am going to fight," declared the newest tenant of the Cedar Lane Unitarian Universalist Church campus in Bethesda. The church will become her home while lawyers make the case she should be allowed to remain in the country. "I feel powerless. But I trust in God for a solution," Lopez explained.
Ramping Up Enforcement
The Trump administration's promise to increase deportation efforts has sent waves of fear through foreign-born communities. (In a strange twist, Lopez' lawyer is also representing anundocumented womanwho worked for Trump National Golf Club in New Jersey, the subject of a recentNew York Times article.)
But with this renewed focus on illegal immigration and the real threat of consequences has come a concerted effort by a network of over 50 houses of worship nationwide to harbor immigrants facing arrest and deportation. This sanctuary movement relies on a rule barring federal officials from arresting people in "sensitive locations," such as churches.
**Informed By Faith
**
What leads religious leaders to harbor immigrants? By and large, it's a moral conviction that those in need ought to be sheltered and given a helping hand. "Our faith informs us that this is the right thing to do," declared Omar Angel Perez, lead organizer for the DMV Sanctuary Congregation Network that matched Gutierrez Lopez with the Cedar Lane church.
Cedar Lane senior minister Rev. Abhi Janamanchi said his congregation and volunteers have banded together to supply Lopez with the basics and to patrol campus exits. "This is the way we live into our values and convictions. We are engaging in faithful resistance to unjust laws and inhumane practices."
This case is hardly an outlier, either churches across the U.S. have stepped up to shelter immigrants. AVirginia woman moved into a Richmond church this summer after she was ordered back to Honduras and into the waiting hands of an abusive partner. Two other immigrants are staying at churches in Charlottesville.
In the Netherlands, one church's efforts to protect a migrant family have garnered international attention:
Flouting the Law, or Exercising Faith?
The ongoing controversy with sanctuary churches has led some critics to denounce these faith communities for openly defying the law. It's great to have compassion, they argue, but breaking America's laws and settling here illegally is not behavior that should be rewarded.
However, church leaders see things differently. Would Jesus endorse turning away huddled masses at the border, separating families, and ordering deportations for people who've worked hard to make a home here? In their estimation, the answer is decidedly "no" which is why they've chosen to take action.
214 comments
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Don
“I am going to fight”
So you fled your country, broke our laws, and NOW you're going to fight? Get back to El Salvador and fight THERE. Stop bringing your nonsense to our borders.
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The Doctor
Sending her back would violate the rights of her children, born citizens, by depriving them of their mother who is a non threat to anyone. They have their rights to life, liberty and happiness. Taking their mother who has done nothing to harm anyone is taking away their right to happiness.
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Alicia
She broke the law. US citizens who break the law are carted off to jail and separated from their children. HER children are free to go with her, then, since they're US citizens, can help her fight to come back legally.
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flugo
Right on!
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flugo
Right on!
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Georges Jansen
Don, You have no compassion. How do you think your forefathers (perhaps even recently) came to this continent ???
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Don
"How do you think your forefathers (perhaps even recently) came to this continent ???"
LEGALLY - and then fought (and died) in two World Wars.
Any more silly questions?
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Don
Another spineless troll spewing false allegations and insults who is too cowardly to even respond. YAWN
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Minister Post
If she is a woman of faith and doesn't abuse the human services agency, food stamps, CALWORKS, TANIF, like so many immigrants do..then give her a chance, but any abuse of the social services, human services agency's should immediately be deported..
I have seen the abuse of food stamps and CALWORKS in the grocery stores. A woman with 3 kids in front of me has over a thousand dollars in her wallet 10 $100 bills. She's pays for her food with an EBT card. After I check out going to my 1989 Toyota, I see the woman with the 3 kids getting into a brand new Cadillac Escalade. I guess she can afford the car payment since we the taxpayers pay for her food. That's the kind of abuse I've seen over and over.
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The Doctor
yeah a lot of falsehood and deception in your obviously made up rants.
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Dianna Ordway
And it's usually done by U S. Citizens, NOT illegal immigrants as U guys them...Just a lot of the murders,rspes , gangs are here too & have absolutely nothing to do with the BORDER
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LtBil Drat
Excellent
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Thomas L Williamson
I also have seen this. A group of us parked near a food bank one day. In a period of a hour, we saw numerous BMW, Audi, Mercedes, etc. All the people were dressed to the 9s or better, walking out with shopping carts full of free goodies.
My property tax is astronomical....
I will never again vote for any Democrat.
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Lea Weisenbach
A gal I worked with, her and her family came when it was war torn. 6 kids..all but one became a citizen. He had a family of 2 young boys a wife and a business and guess what happened..He got deported. He's sister sad " oh well.. we all did but him". Its a shame but it dose not cost much to become a citizen. The one thing that gets me is the Catholic church gets the most money from these poor country's...Why are they not there to take care of the people that support them. But a church is basically Onmist's is trying to help. I feel bad for this women...But the law is rhe law..Its time this stops.
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, ADS, OM
"When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt." (Leviticus 19:33-34); "When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the foreigner" (Leviticus 19:9-10) "Do not oppress a foreigner; you yourselves know how it feels to be foreigners, because you were foreigners in Egypt." (Exodus 23:9); "For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me"’ (Matthew 25:25-36) NO one is illegal on stolen land,unless you are a member of an indigenous tribe, you are living on stolen land. What goes around comes around. Welcome asylum seekers. Our contract as ordained ministers of the ULC mandates our care and respect of all, especially those less fortunate.
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Don
"unless you are a member of an indigenous tribe"
So then no one, since the Amerind Tribes (often mistakenly called "native Americans") migrated to North America and SLAUGHTERED the humans already living here. What goes around, comes around, indeed.
Don't take my word for it, Google "Kennewick Man" and learn how the "native" tribes desperately tried to block research (because they knew it would shatter their "First People" myth).
I also find it interesting you use Scripture to validate your position - skip ahead a few chapters to where Jesus says it's okay to beat slaves with a whip. (Luke 12:47) OOPS!
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
;Don: According to an article in U/S. News the Kennewick Man was declared related to Native Americans.
"Kennewick Man Was a Native American: The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers has determined that Kennewick Man is related to modern Native American tribes." "The ancient skeleton known as Kennewick Man is related to modern Native American tribes, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers said Wednesday, opening the process for returning to tribes for burial one of the oldest and most complete set of bones ever found in North America.
The Northwestern Division of the corps said its decision was based on a review of new information, particularly recently published DNA and skeletal analyses.
The corps, which has custody of the remains, said the skeleton is now covered by the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act.
The 8,500-year-old remains were discovered in 1996 in southeastern Washington near the Columbia River in Kennewick, triggering a lengthy legal fight between tribes and scientists over whether the bones should be buried immediately or studied."
Read the whole article here. https://www.usnews.com/news/science/articles/2016-04-27/corps-determines-kennewick-man-is-native-american
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Don
I've read it, thanks anyway.
As for "According to an article in U/S. News the Kennewick Man was declared related to Native Americans" - that didn't stop them from getting completely wiped out as a people. Contrary to popular myth, the tribes did not all get along peacefully.
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The Doctor
I suspect Catherine is just quoting the bible to point out the hypocrisy of so called christians.
You however are dead wrong. Modern genetics since the decoding of the human genome have allowed us to have a clearer picture of the original nomadic tribes that wandered onto the american continents.
We now suspect that at least 3 different waves going back as far as 15 thousand years and coming from both the eastern and western sides brought over the ancestors of the First Nations peoples.
And unlike the imperialistic invasion of the last half of the millennia those ancient peoples settled on land no one else was using.
Ultimately the point is either first come first serve thus those who colonized in the wake of the spanish fleets landing had no right, Or people have the right to wander where they will and made up lines on human drawn maps are artificial constructs that should not dictate nor prevent humanity and helping others in search of a safer region to start and raise a family.
You cant really be like well this woman needs to go back to her country while also defending the invasion and slaughter of invasive conquerors just because they benefit you generations later.
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Jim
REALLY " settled on land no one else was using?" "We now Suspect 3 different waves". Gosh first off how do you know what was going on 15 thousand years ago and that no one else was here. Second we now SUSPECT 3 different waves, So we DONT know do we, how do you know that one of those three waves did not over power the other two to kill them off and become the dominant tribe before others arrived. Native Americans as we call them were fighting each other for decades before anyone else came along. "Modern Genetics" have given us a clearer picture of our history as people but there is still WAY to much for us to learn. NOW REALITY. I don't care if its first come first serve as you put it or the right to wander where they will. You are talking about events 100's of years in our past. Do you think that the Gay community would have been accepted 300 years ago. How about a trans gender person wanting a sex change operation, do you think that would have been ok a few hundred years ago. You talk out your ass because your mouth knows better. Nothing is as it was 100, 1000, 10000 years ago. We also did not have the population we had 10000 years ago. THE bottom line here is that this woman has broken our laws. She was ordered deported by a court. If the Church wants to protect them and break the law just as anyone that harbors a fugitive they should be held accountable. Take away their tax exempt status and let them take care of the illegals and keep them at the church. Otherwise obey the law and send them home.
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LtBil Drat
I agree with you. I don't think she's fixable any way.
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Jim
No land was stolen, who is an indigenous tribe. The American Indians were from Asia. So how do we know who is indigenous to any piece of land. If you follow the bible we all started off in one area of the world and went out from there so there is no such thing over most of the world as an indigenous people they all migrated to the lands. I care and do respect all including those less fortunate. But If I break a law then I can expect to pay for the crime. Just as the illegal immigrant today that shot the police officer who was a legal immigrant. The legal Immigrant would still be here to enjoy life with his wife and daughter if we had control of our borders. Even Egypt had wars and toke lands of the ones they conquered and lost land to ones that conquered them back and forth in history as all nations have. And I for one would treat any foreigner as if he were born here. IF HE COMES HERE LEGALLY and follows the law. My Wife immigrated to this country as did my sister in law.
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, ADS, OM
As usual another non-Indian pretends to hold more knowledge when in fact it is nothing more than old school, long ago disputed archeological history. You are an illegal if you are not a member of a North American tribe. Sorry to burst your entitlement bubble. So sad. We are not from Asia, silly man. Only the Alaska Natives are from Asia and parts of Russia. Get your history and migration stories straight and stop pretending you have knowledge you do not possess.
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Don
"Only the Alaska Natives are from Asia and parts of Russia."
Your ignorance of archeological history is astounding...but not surprising. Despite the myths of your people, you did not originate in North America any more than humans started with Adam and Eve. Sorry to burst your false origin bubble.
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Jim
Thank you Don. Finally someone who actually knows history or is it that they know it just don't want to admit it. Besides that Catherine your people lost the land. GET OVER IT.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
Don: Geneticists say study of DNA shows that Native Americans came from Siberia.
From the LA Times - Native American origins: When the DNA points two ways By ERYN BROWN JUL 21, 2015 | 1:56 PM
"In a wide-ranging paper in the journal Science, University of Copenhagen Centre for GeoGenetics Director Eske Willerslev and coauthors studied genomes from ancient and modern people in the Americas and Asia. They concluded that migrations into the New World had to have occurred in a single wave from Siberia, timed no earlier than 23,000 years ago. They also calculated that any genes shared with Australo-Melanesian peoples must have been contributed through relatively recent population mixing.
In the meantime, Harvard Medical School geneticist David Reich and colleagues, focusing more closely on the Australo-Melanesian genes in a study published in Nature, came to a different conclusion: that the DNA had to have arrived in the Americas very long ago and that founding migrations occurred in more than one wave.
"It was crazy and unexpected and very weird and we spent the last year and a half trying to understand it," Reich said on Monday. But "it's inconsistent to a single founding population. People in Amazonia have ancestry from two divergent sources...we think this is a real observation."
David Meltzer, an archaeologist at Southern Methodist University in Dallas and a coauthor of the Science paper, said that researchers in his field had been wrestling with the early history of the Americas for centuries -- debating when the first settlers arrived here, whether there were pulses of migrations, and so on.
Read the whole article here: https://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-native-american-origins-dna-20150721-story.html
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Jon Woods
Funny made up stories
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Jim
I'm sorry to burst your entitlement bubble Catherine but even if the "native Americans" were actually indigenous to this country, YOUR ANCESTORS LOST IT. YOU DID NOT EVEN PARTICIPATE IN IT, IT HAPPENED LONG BEFORE YOU WERE BORN. GET OVER IT. JUST LIKE HITLER and the JAPANESE YOU LOST. That is the TRUE KNOWLEDGE that I possess.
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John Owens
Great Scot Catherine! From whence do you think the American Indians came? Did they sprout up spontaneously in some spot in the Americas? Good Lord!
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Lea Weisenbach
Amen..I don't understand when someone quotes the bible..Its our beginning laws..As we should all follow..laws..Then we move from there because things change..Laws to become legal should be used. I stand by Trump..Putting a stop to all this BS...The supply and demand for sex and drugs have got to stop. Because we as a nation our part of the problem if we don't stop this illegal crossing.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
Lea: Stand by Trump all you want but conservative sources say his wall won't work. Read and learn from this article:
What Happened When A Trump Supporter Challenged Me About the Wall - By Vicky Alvear Shecter, Dec 27
"A conservative challenged liberal Facebook friends to “make a case, not based on emotion” against Trump’s wall. Conservative buddies flooded his post with snide remarks about how this would be impossible for “deluded libs.”
“Okay, I’ll play,” I responded. And in order to avoid being accused of bias, I explained that I would use only conservative sources to prove my point. My primary source was a policy paper by the Cato Institute, a conservative, rightwing think tank, along with other conservative voices (listed at the end of the piece). Here’s why I’m against the wall, I wrote:
1. Walls don’t work. Illegal immigrants have tunneled underneath and/or erected ramps up and down walls to simply drive over them. People find a way; note Berlin wall .... 2. Most illegal immigrants are “overstayers.” They come to the US legally — for vacations, business, to study, etc. — and then STAY past their visas.... 3. Walls have little impact on drugs being brought in to the US. According to the DEA, almost all drugs come in through legal points of entry, hidden ... 4. It’s environmentally impractical. Walls have a hard time making it through extreme weather. For example, in 2011, a flood in Arizona washed away 40 feet of STEEL fencing. ... 5. A wall would forces the U.S. government to take land from private citizens in eminent domain battles. ... 6. Border patrol agents don’t like concrete or steel walls because they block surveillance capabilities. ... 7. Border patrol agents say, “Walls are meaningless without agents and technology to back them up.” Are we prepared to pour countless billions annually — after the wall is built — to create a nearly 2,000 mile, militarized 24-hour surveillance border operation?... 8. Where walls have been built, there was “no discernable impact on the influx of unauthorized aliens.”... 9. An unintended consequence is that a wall blocks farmworkers from EXITING when their invaluable seasonal work is done. Farmers are against the wall because it makes getting cheap seasonal labor almost impossible as few American citizens want or can even do those jobs.... 10. Trump’s $5 billion is a laughable drop in the bucket for what would ACTUALLY be needed. For example, according to the Cato Institute: An estimate for a border wall area that only covered 700 miles was originally 1.2 billion. How much did it REALLY cost? SEVEN BILLION.... 11. According to MIT engineers, the wall would cost $31.2 billion. ...As the conservatives of the Cato Institute put it, “President Trump’s wall would be a mammoth expenditure that would have little impact on illegal immigration.”Read the full article with author's conservative sources here: https://medium.com/@vickyalvearshecter/what-happened-when-a-trump-supporter-challenged-me-about-the-wall-e54e86a5edd1?fbclid=IwAR2kdtFydNNO2q2GxxJgf2KOvESRcjkme2IkLjIyKgCNL3grqS44LbR_3hA
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Jim
Rev this is what I know without having to read articles written by folks who don't know but assume. 1. We have Barriers around military bases. We have Barriers around our homes, we have Barriers around prisons. We have Barriers around many government buildings including the white house. Other countries have barriers at their borders that have been maintained and or constructed recently. For something that supposedly would not work there sure is a lot of them in use. 2. Just like with prisons or your home. Will a barrier 100% stop someone from getting in or out. No but it is a deterrent just like a nuclear bomb is a deterrent it makes folks think twice before acting. 3. The border patrol has requested barriers be put up along the border to help them do their job. Yes in addition we need technology and more border agents but we still need the wall. Example if I have a wall or barrier whatever you want to call it in one location say with censors or infrared cameras and another piece of land where there is no border but an infrared camera or motion sensor and a border patrol agent 25 minutes away which one do you think will get caught. I would put my money on the one that has to try and get over the wall. 4. You said 31.2 billion. Compare that to the over 54 billion A YEAR that we are currently spending on Illegals and I'm sure you will agree that its not much in the scheme of things. 5. In short a barrier of any kind will not stop 100% of the people coming across but if we can stop 50%, that would have been about 150000 in 2017. I'd say that's a good start. That's just the ones we know about. 6. The main issue with land is not farmers but ranches that want access to the Rio Grand. I'm sure we can work something out other than a wall or we can put a gate with a border post at it. And by law the farmers are not supposed to be hiring the illegals on the farms anyway so its a none argument.
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The Doctor
Hey Boris your writing couldnt be more obvious a work of a translation program. Because if that is how someone raised in the states writes you really shouldnt be acting like your more use to our society then this hard working single mother.
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Don
"if that is how someone raised in the states writes you really shouldnt be acting like your more use to our society"
You missed several commas, and you misspelled "you're" and "used to".
So maybe YOU need a translation program since your grammar is so atrocious.
(hypocrites suck)
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Daniel
Lets not forget that it’s often the foreign policies of the U. S. Which further destabilizes the countries where the refugees are fleeing from. The lady in this article did seek refuge in a church but it also notes that she is STILL seeking review in the court system. I think that as long as the people being given sanctuary in churches are still attempting to access legal review of their individual circumstances it should be allowed.
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flugo
'kat urine gripe, alphabet': Show me where in the ULC mandates that we ministers are to care 'all'. In some cases that's illegal, such as harboring a lawbreaker.
The church is wrong for aiding and abetting this illegal immigrant.
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Lea Weisenbach
Yes..aiding and abetting. Even the mayor in California ( don't remember her name) But giving illegal aliens heads up about ICE coming in...She should be charged.
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The Doctor
Boris you are agreeing with a self admitted incest rape fantasist. Not exactly the kind of company sane moral people want to keep.
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The Doctor
Hey there bob you still harboring those secret rape fantasies for your sister you admitted to here on these very forums a few months back?
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flugo
What the hell you talking about?
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Rev Ned
Well said!
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Jon Woods
Send her home if she wants to be in the United States she needs to follow the rules and laws to become a citizen or the live here and anybody that doesn't want to follow with it then move down there to El Salvador with
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LtBil Drat
..."NO one is illegal on stolen land,unless...unless you're here illegally." There. I fixed it.
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Tom
I was a vice-president for the local conference of an intentional charity. What I encountered was exactly what an earlier comment stated. Gross abuse of the system. And, yes I had interesting interviews with client that drove Cadillacs and some lived in a very exclusive neighborhoods. The cheats were no where near the majority but they still tried. Accordingly those actions will be subject to some form of retribution in the future, hell, karma? Where do we draw the line? Are there degrees of sin? "Who are we to judge"? Love and forgiveness is preached but where is the real fault. Unless ethics and responsibility are shown and taught we will only be repeating what has gone on before.
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, ADS, OM
Yes, I also find white collar crimes where people get away with not paying taxes, getting huge tax breaks because they are wealthy and hide their money in offshore shell companies. This is a much bigger problem to me than some poor people.
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MICHAEL SPINELLI
Those white collar criminals as you brought up are not bleeding the welfare, medical, or legal system. The illegals are milking our system down. Plus they reproduce at an astounding rate thereby over populating an area. Which we end up paying for the medical and then an additional claim on welfare and food stamps. This is an invasion, they know how to destroy. God help us.
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, ADS, OM
You are obviously not a ULC minister and you have nothing to offer us who abide by our mandate of supporting the less fortunate and accepting people of all races. You are an obvious racist and you are free to return to the land of YOUR ancestors. "Invasion"??? Yes we know about invasion very well when the Europeans invaded our homes. Why are you on this site? If not how about following the words and teachings of Jesus. You might become a better human being. “For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me”’ (Matthew 25:25-36)
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Alicia
Catherine...Do you realize that not all Ministers are Christian? I don't follow the Bible. I don't "love all regardless". I am Pagan and a Minister. What Michael is saying is true...this latest influx of illegals is an invasion! 10,000 people don't spontaneously decide to walk thousands of miles with children. Don't you see that these people are being financed? I see the video with them wearing new clothes, shoes and backpacks, carrying cold water.
These people were offered asylum in Mexico. They refused. Why? Because they would not get a free ride in Mexico. In the US, they will get welfare, medicare, housing.
I'm also not against those coming from Central/South America. ANYONE coming here illegally should be sent back, no matter where they're from or what race they are.
These churches that are harboring criminals (which is what these illegals are) need to lose their tax exempt status. Let's see how long they continue to break the law after that.
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Don
"Yes we know about invasion very well when the Europeans invaded our homes."
You mean the homes you invaded. There were already humans living here when your people arrived...and they SLAUGHTERED THEM ALL. So park that high horse.
"Why are you on this site?"
A question for you as well.
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Don
"how about following the words and teachings of Jesus"
Like when he taught to beat slaves (Luke 12:47) or kill unbelievers (Luke 19:27)? Oh right, not THOSE teachings! Hypocrites suck.
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Carl Elfstrom
ULC is not a Christian sect, the Indians lost the war, none of whom which are still alive, you didn't experience any Europeans invading your home, and anyone born in a particular country is a native of that country. I'm just as much a native of this land as anyone else, and a patriotic American. I don't care anything about what happened to your defeated people hundreds of years ago on land that no longer belongs to those primitive Indians. We American citizens have done a far better job of building this nation than a bunch of silly savages, who should be kissing our feet for all of our modern conveniences that y'all could no longer live without. So go back to your teepee on your reservation, before we take that undeserving privilege away from y'all too. In all other wars the losers were never given any rights. So be grateful, instead of a sniveling cry-baby.
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The Doctor
To Alicia, all of those ordained through the ULC are to uphold the views of the ULC, as such we who take the ministry seriously look as every one as children of our universe and all deserve to be given equal treatment. No matter what your specific faith is, if you are part of the ULC you need to read up on our tenants.
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Alicia
T'Keren Velmaz....Being a minister does not make one stupid. I know the difference between illegal and legal. I will treat anyone with the utmost respect, however, I will NOT harbor criminals. Those here illegally ARE criminals. The woman in question was ordered to leave. She chose to go to a church because she knew the bleeding hearts would allow her to stay and nothing could be done about it. Just because I don't agree that illegals should be coddled and sheltered doesn't mean I'm not "worthy" of being a minister.
I uphold my responses: ANY church that does not abide by the laws of this country and harbors anyone involved in illegal activities, needs to lose their tax exempt status. Why should I, or any other taxpayer, take on the load of paying while churches are free of taxes even though they are involved in illegal activities?
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The Doctor
Mich Spinelli you may want to read up on some of the articles out there about the long term IRS investigations into offshore wealth. Its a sum suspected to be in the trillions total. The wealth the rich smuggle from this country and hide away is so vast it makes what the government spends on all social and civil wellfare, education, and health care less then a grain of sand on a beach.
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flugo
Alicia: Superb posting!
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Don
"...all of those ordained through the ULC are to uphold the views of the ULC, as such we who take the ministry seriously..."
"incestuous rape fantasies for your sister" "fantasizing about raping your sister"
Accusing strangers of sick and immoral garbage makes it appear you do NOT take it seriously. Practice what you preach. Hypocrites suck.
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Lea Weisenbach
Both are the problem.
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Val jester
What specifically are those tax breaks for the wealthy. I would like to find them. Please be specific.
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Daniel
Amen
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Alicia
Let the churches keep these people but, since these churches will not follow the law, they need to lose their tax exempt status.
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ET
For those of us who say the law was broken and so the guilty must be punished, who among us has not broken a law? Should we not all be punished as well? At what point does forgiveness and compassion get applied? With words of condemnation toward those in trouble, could we not be throwing metaforic stones?
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Don
News Flash - People who break the law - American Citizens - and are then caught are not only punished, but separated from their children! No outcry about it when it happens to Americans, only illegals. Why is that?
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Carl Elfstrom
Then again, us Americans can get bailed out of jail. And even prisons have certain days when visitors are allowed.
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Carl Elfstrom
I thought ET was an alien, but you sound like another Jesus wannabe, so why don't you float back to heaven, and take your twisted quotes with you.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
According to the most recent Ipsos/Reuters polling 47% Americans blame Trump for shut-down; only 35% support congress funding a wall. According to the latest CNN/SSRS polling 57% Americans oppose the building of a wall and only 33% Americans support building a wall without Mexican funding. According to the latest Gallup polling 75% of Americans, a record high, believe that immigration is a good thing and support it.
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Alicia
I support immigration....LEGAL immigration. This is what people don't seem to understand: Trump is NOT against immigration. He's against ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, which shouldn't even be considered "immigration", but an invasion. Conveniently, people tend to leave out that word "illegal".
To all those who want this hoard of invaders to come to the US: unlock your doors...see what enters your home. THEN talk about these "poor people". They are no longer seeking asylum since they have been offered asylum by Mexico. Mexico wasn't offering a free ride like they get in the US, so they refused. But, since they were offered, they are no longer asylum seekers...they are invaders.
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Lea Weisenbach
Bingo!!
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flugo
Excellent!
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
Alicia: Trump is, as are all fundi-evangelical conservative racists, xenophobes haters, only for Caucasian, fundi-Christian immigration, not people of color or of other or no religion. The white racists of the U.S. are scared shitless that they stand to lose their majority in the U.S. and therefore their sense of white privilege. That is why Trump and his 30% minions are so intent of keeping people of color seeking asylum from tyranny from crossing the border.
"Trump's attacks on the legal immigration system explained."
"The Trump administration has been making changes both small and drastic to U.S. immigration policies. While Trump’s cruel policies at the border and his ramping up of deportations and ICE raids have garnered the most attention and outrage, his other efforts to transform legal immigration have been no less radical. As administration officials and conservative commentators have said, deportations alone may not halt the demographic changes taking place in the country -- so the administration is aggressively reshaping the legal immigration system.
Taken together, these policies support a white nationalist agenda. By keeping more people out, deporting people who are here, and creating an atmosphere of nativism and fear that affects everybody, Trump is attempting to dramatically reduce immigration to the United States, particularly of people of color.
Most people don’t support the Trump agenda – the majority of the public thinks that immigration is a good thing and shouldn’t be decreased. That’s why it’s important to understand and oppose the changes underway. Here is a running list of changes and planned changes to the legal immigration system.
What are other pending and proposed changes to the immigration system?
Pushing more people into deportation proceedings: New guidance is designed to make it easier for USCIS – which is not an enforcement agency - to funnel people it denies into deportation proceedings by issuing a “Notice to Appear” or NTA. This change will add to the immigration court backlog of cases, divert resources, and push more people into deportation. By issuing NTAs when it denies people's applications, the government will discourage applications for life-saving visas to protect people who are survivors of trafficking and domestic violence. Another memo issued makes it easier for USCIS to deny people’s applications. These changes will have a chilling effect on all immigrants.
Punishing immigrants with legal status and their families: The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) has proposed a regulation that would punish immigrants who use basic public benefits like food stamps and Medicaid. If adopted, DHS could deem more immigrants likely to become a “public charge” - dependent on the government at any point in their lives – and reject their petitions for green cards. This could force families to choose between their well-being and staying together – and it will disproportionately harm the most vulnerable in our society including children, pregnant women, older adults, and families living paycheck to paycheck.
Making more people deportable: Trump has worked to strip legal status from more than one million people. By terminating Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) the administration could leave nearly 700,000 young adults vulnerable to deportation. And by ending Temporary Protected Status (TPS) and Deferred Enforced Departure (DED) for most countries Trump is ending legal status for hundreds of thousands of people and creating a new population of unauthorized immigrants subject to the threat of deportation.
Creating obstacles for workers and their families: The administration has signaled that it intends to end work authorization for spouses of H-1B visa holders. This will likely deter people from coming to the United States to work legally and will have a negative impact on the industries that use the H-1B visa program.
Going after naturalized citizens: A new denaturalization task force is also working to strip citizenship from naturalized American citizens. While there are few legal grounds for denaturalization, the administration is planning to refer 1,600 cases to the Justice Department for prosecution. Even if the denaturalization task force doesn’t bring many cases, it will have succeeded at signaling to all naturalized citizens and permanent residents a sense of insecurity and uncertainty.
If you are at all open-minded read the entire analysis here: https://www.afsc.org/blogs/news-and-commentary/trumps-attacks-legal-immigration-system-explained
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Jim
Rev Barker your ignorance of the immigration system is really astounding. About the only thing that you spouted that is right is that most people think immigration is a good thing. See your problem is you are being brainwashed by a democratic playbook. You probably are not aware that when an immigrant comes into this country they are supposed to show that they can support themselves and their family members without becoming a ward of the state. That is how they get a visa so that they don't become a burden to the American tax payer of all colors. These laws have been on the books long before Trump ever came into office. Also we MUST control the number of people who enter the country just like every other country in the world. It is called sustainability, just like with income if you spend more than you make (let more people in than you have jobs for) You will go broke PERIOD. Which we can safely say that with our current system in place that is where we are headed. You also have the criminal element to consider as well. We need to know who is coming into the country and they need to do it LEGALLY. NOW you can show all the articles you want on the subject which will be written by people with an agenda and want you to think they are giving you an honest opinion. I don't care which side of the issue politically you are on they both have talking points and stats to back them up. MY ONLY reason I have the opinion that I have is base on knowledge of life. My wife is a naturalized citizen as is two of my sister in laws. Two did things legally and one actually was illegal for about 20 years but finally got her act together and got her citizenship. she let her visa expire had to pay a pretty penny to get right with it. The Democratic party has done a 180 on immigration because they think that approx 80% of illegals if made legal will vote democratic. This makes a large voting block and this is the only reason they ACT like they care. We need to change the laws and make them stronger and enforce them and we need to secure our border both north and south.
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Thomas L Williamson
I have known a lot of racists in my life, very few have been white. It's sad that in the United States, to prosecute law-breakers is an act of racism, it's sad that in the United States to want and protect your country and your family is an act of racism, it's sad that in the United States to disagree with the democrats is considered racism. Anyone forcing their way into a foreign country without permission is an act of invasion.
Rev 2:10
This day has started to dawn.
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The Doctor
No Cadet Bone Spurs and his loyal minions do not want any immigration of non whites. Its so obvious at this point trying to say anything else only paints you as willfully ignorant and deluded.
At this point the videos on youtube of trumpistas being caught and called out on being ignorant of the laws around refugee status and there being no rule that requires them to only come in through accepted border crossing or with papers already in hand to ask for refuge only for them to go slack jawed and end with well I hope trump changes that law then shows how people like you do not understand refuge and asylum laws.
There is no rule that requires them to stop at the next country they enter. The abuse and oppression of people of strong native blood by the wannabe spanish elite of mexico is well understood and long documented.
You are safer as a white person in mexico then as someone of mayan, aztec, or incan etc ancestry.
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Jim
Rev Barker aren't these the same polls that said Hilary would win in 2016.
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Jim
Also Rev Barker, I whole heartedly believe that Immigration is a good thing, Actually its a great thing my wife is a naturalized citizen. DID YOU GET THAT, she came here legally and did things right. The question I would ask is was the question on the pole do you think immigration is a good thing and support it or did they ask if Illegal immigration is a good thing. The problem with poles is how you ask the question and who you are talking to. At 47% the error on the pole is most likely at lest +- 3% to 5% which would mean half the people. only 35% support funding the wall. How many of the people were Dems, Reb, or independents. This to would have a large difference in the poles as it seems to run along party lines. Any pole taken by CNN is not reliable and should be discarded. My point Rev is that poles do not as we saw in the 2016 election truly show how America feels about anything. It is all on how the polling is done and what results they want to show.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
Jim: You know nothing about polling. You are no expert.
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Jim
I looked over my statement Rev. I did not see where I said I was an expert. But If you take out either California OR NY she lost the popular vote. That is why we have an Electoral college. People were afraid back in the day that highly populated states or cities would swing elections and smaller states would not have a say. I know more about polling than I think you do. As with any conversation or question it is how it is presented to the person. So to truly understand a pole you would have to know the exact question asked and the people that were asked, IE Dems, Reb, Independents. Right now if you take a pole of 1k people who are all democrats I would say that they would say there is no need for a wall. Therefore your pole would be skewed and you would say that Americans do not want a wall. Hence why poles have been known to be wrong. Now that I have given you a history lesson as well as a lesson in polling. There were several other poles taken and they had people wanting the wall at 52%, 57% and 64%. Again I would put no stock in any of these polls.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
Jim: Regarding your taking out New York and California so what? Those states votes count in the final tally, you can't take them out, Hillary Clinton won the popular vote, period.
In my humble opinion and many others the electoral college should be abandoned or ,easier, states should pass (as many already have) requiring that their electoral votes be allocated according to the results of the popular vote.
"The Constitution gives states full control over how they allocate their electoral votes. The current winner-take-all method, in which the winner of the statewide popular vote wins all of that state's electoral votes, is a choice—and states can choose differently. Under the National Popular Vote interstate compact, states choose to allocate their electoral votes to the candidate who wins the most popular votes in all 50 states and DC. This compact takes effect only when enough states sign on to guarantee that the national popular vote winner wins the presidency. That means states with a combined total of 270 electoral votes—a majority of the Electoral College—must join the compact for it to take effect." https://www.fairvote.org/national_popular_voteThe real reason the electoral college came about is the issue of slavery. From a TIME mag article of 26 Nov 2018:
"Standard civics-class accounts of the Electoral College rarely mention the real demon dooming direct national election in 1787 and 1803: slavery. At the Philadelphia convention, the visionary Pennsylvanian James Wilson proposed direct national election of the president. But the savvy Virginian James Madison responded that such a system would prove unacceptable to the South: “The right of suffrage was much more diffusive [i.e., extensive] in the Northern than the Southern States; and the latter could have no influence in the election on the score of Negroes.” In other words, in a direct election system, the North would outnumber the South, whose many slaves (more than half a million in all) of course could not vote. But the Electoral College—a prototype of which Madison proposed in this same speech—instead let each southern state count its slaves, albeit with a two-fifths discount, in computing its share of the overall count. Read the whole article here. http://time.com/4558510/electoral-college-history-slavery/
I understand polling better than you think I do. I am well aware that how the questions are phrased can produce bias or not. Competent pollsters knows this also and phrase their questions accordingly. It is for you to prove otherwise. See this article: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/which-pollsters-to-trust-in-2018/
"The Polls Are All Right Election polls sometimes get the answer wrong — but they’re about as accurate as they’ve always been." https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-polls-are-all-right/
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The Doctor
No Jim the reason for the electoral college was because the wealthy rural plantation owners etc feared the power of the industrial revolution and the rising masses of educated people in the cities.
Its an archaic concept that gives far too much power to too few people. California has a population of nearly 40 millions Wyoming has barely half a million people. Why the hell should those 500,000 people on wyoming have more influence then 80 times their number in a state with far better education statistics?
Oh thats right because its the typical ignorant farm folk and factory laborers of those nearly empty backwater rural regions that help keep the corrupt in power through a mixture of media and religious manipulation.
Think about it Wyoming, Montana, and Idaho together barely have 3 million people. That is still not even a 10th of california's population. As far as Im concerned those people in those 3 states should be rounded up and relocated to cities to be properly civilized, socialized and educated for their own sake, and turn those 3 states into a massive national wildlife refuge.
People being isolated and spread so thin only breeds ignorance and allows abuse and depravity towards the powerless as has been seen time and time again through history.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
Jim: Hillary did WIN the popular vote in 2016 by 3 million votes. The polls were correct.
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Jim
One more thing Rev. You do not know me and have no idea what I'm an expert in. If I were you I would never assume what a person does or does not know. Ask some questions and you may learn.
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Jim
Hey T'Keren you know I have really tried to have an intelligent conversation with you and even the Rev Barker but have come to the conclusion that it is not possible because neither of you posses the intelligence needed to have a conversation. The making of EC had nothing to do with plantation owners but again I'm not going to go into a history lesson for you. You can look it up. Barker Hillary won the popular vote but lost the election. It does not matter what you want to happen it is what it is. It's our system of elections that has been in place since the 1800's If you want to change it get the states to agree to an amendment "good luck with that one". T you want to let Illegals come into the country who do not speak our language yet you want to round up citizens in rural states and relocate them so that they can be "Properly Civilzed and socialized and educated for their own sake" I don't think I have ever met someone as arrogant and just plan ignorant as you. I hope your kids do not take after you. I was going to go into more but like I said YOUR JUST NOT WORTH THE EFFORT and based on the other comments that people have responded to you, well if this many people calling you out does not tell you something then there is just no hope. Have a good life and I wish you all that you have coming. Rev Barker the poles had Hillary winning the EC which she did not.
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Gerardo Defendini
You are, of course, using CNN.... I am going a little more to the center. Not Fox but CBS poll says 51% support the wall, 38% say no and the rest have no opinion. The Washington Exminer has it 65% in favor, 26% against and the rest no opinion. Here is a fact that, perhaps, you have not thought of. IT WAS AND STILL IS A PROMISE!!! and he was elected based on that promise. 66% of this nation said to him they wanted the wall. So that is that.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
Gerarldo Defendini: According to a CBS news report dated 21 Dec 2018 "Most Americans don't support building the wall." Article reads thus: "CBS News polling from mid-November found that a majority -- 59 percent of Americans -- oppose building a wall along the U.S.-Mexico border. It's a partisan issue, though. A large majority of Republicans support the wall -- 79 percent. A majority of independents -- 66 percent -- oppose the wall, and 84 percent of Democrats are also against it." Read the article here: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cbs-news-poll-americans-dont-support-building-the-wall/
Trump only won 46.4% of the popular vote while Hillary Clinton won 48.5%. Hillary won the popular vote by over 3 million over Trump. Not all voted for Trump for his fantasy wall and those who did did so because it was supposed to be paid for by Mexico,I remind you, not we Americans through our taxes. Most who voted for Trump were concerned about jobs, not a wall. Those who did vote for Trump's fantasy wall did so because he said Mexico was going to pay for it. "While most Americans are relatively unconcerned about Trump’s “Great Wall,” his supporters continue to expect it to be built, according to a new HuffPost/YouGov poll. Fully 65 percent of those who voted for Trump in 2016 said the president was “likely to accomplish” his promise to build a wall and make Mexico pay for it. (Six percent said they believed it had already happened.) More Trump voters named the promise as a top three priority than anything else but his vow to “drain the swamp” in the nation’s capital." https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-wall-base-supporters_us_5ac3a9a3e4b00fa46f86d89b
CNN is considered in a Media bias chart to be minimal partisan bias or balance of bias, or neutral. The Washington Examiner is Hyper Partisan Conservative publication. See media bias chart here: https://www.adfontesmedia.com/
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Gerardo Defendini
I don't think this is a cut and dry immigration issue. This is an immigration law issue. If a person is hungry, does that give that person the right to steal your food? If a person is homeless, should he or she have the right to break into your house and stay there? How about you look the other way when someone you don't know breaks into your house, eats your food, uses your medicines? Goes to the Dr. or hospital and gives you the bill?
Every illegal immigrant in this country is someone we know nothing about. Think about that.
This is a rule of the law issue. Look. We can't blame Trump or ICE for enforcing the laws placed there by the US, as a nation through the senate or law to begin with. In fact, it was Bill Clinton himself that signed the "Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act" in 1996. If we want to change the law, we can change it. That is why we are a nation "By the people and for the people". It's in the hands of us, the people, the senate, your representatives, YOU!!!!. It's in your hands. This woman did not show up to her hearing scheduled in 2006. For 11 years she has been breaking the law we chose for our country every single day. This, however you look at it, is breaking the law. By definition, this also makes her a criminal. ergo the term "ILLEGAL Immigrant.
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Rev. Brien
Wow, I just had to read the comments. I understand the concerns. We cannot police the world. I truly believe that we need to close our borders...ALL OF THEM. I make no distinction between french, italian, mexican, middle eastern, south, north, east, west, ect. We cannot even care for the homeless that are already here, including our own ex service men and women. What makes people think that we can care for another country's population? I am sorry, but to quote from a good book, "There is no room at the inn." Do not blame this mess on Trump, it is ALL of our faults. This is what happens when you allow a problem to fester and just sweep it under the rug. This problem has been brewing for DECADES, and our government has FAILED to protect this country for DECADES. Now, you all want to jump on the bandwagon. Now you are upset. Where was this zeal decades ago when our government started caring for their own pockets instead of caring for this country? How come you kept voting in the same delinquent people to represent you? I will tell you why...BECAUSE NONE OF YOU FOOLS PAID ANY DAMN ATTENTION. Now you are angry. Well guess what buttercup, it is too damn late. A government ONLY works when people pay attention. This just proves what I have said since day 1, this is a population of lemmings, not leaders. We reap what we sow......congratulations it is harvest time. You created the problem by your own inaction. Nothing will change now, this generation is a point and clik generation, and their parents are lemmings. I sit back now and just watch it circle the drain. Have a nice day.
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Jim
Thank You. I have been saying the same thing since the Reagan era when he gave amnesty to a large group back then. I have always said that Americans are some of the dumbest people on the planet because while we can site who won the last 10 season of American Idol, most can't name the VP or their senators or come close to telling you how our government actually works. You said it very well and I could not agree more.
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Lea Weisenbach
I agree..
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Linda Happenny
Wow the hate of the churches who help people. Have you forgotten about boatloads of Cubans and Haitians coming to the shores of Florida? I think you all then and now are.misinformed. The people who come in to the country legal or.not, do learn English (ESL) and take.college courses so they can take the immigration test, which is in english.to.become.a.citizen. I know this because I tutored a lot of them. So go ahead with your worthless opinions .
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Don
You seem to be the one who is misinformed, not to mention very narrow minded. There are documented cases of illegals living here for DECADES without learning one bit of English. Strange how you completely ignore the facts in order to spew your uninformed bias. Evidence for your claims, or go away.
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Linda Happenny
Ha! They do know English and.refuse to speak it. How do you know they don't? Eh? Do you ask? They won't tell you until you speak bad about them. And by the way they do go to college or tech school. I have a friend who went to college and learned English An d now runs a department at the college. That is just one example. There is many success stories.
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Don
"They do know English and refuse to speak it."
So they are deceitful and immoral, as well as illegal. Thanks for admitting that, even if that wasn't your intent.
Did you have a defendable position, or are you just here to spew insults and troll?
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Jim
Like you just gave your worthless opinion Linda. I don't know where you live but I know plenty of folks who can't speak English. Not everyone goes to college, My guess would be very few. Yes some will learn English much like the police officer who was killed Christmas day. But he was here legally. I don't think that illegals are spending much time in English class or college. Maybe their kids but not them.
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Gerardo Defendini
I quote: English Language Exemptions You Are Exempt From The English Language Requirement, But Are Still Required To Take The Civics Test If You Are:
Age 50 or older at the time of filing for naturalization and have lived as a permanent resident (green card holder) in the United States for 20 years (commonly referred to as the “50/20” exception). OR Age 55 or older at the time of filing for naturalization and have lived as a permanent resident in the United States for 15 years (commonly referred to as the “55/15” exception). Note:
Even if you qualify for the “50/20” or “55/15” English language exceptions listed above, you must still take the civics test. You will be permitted to take the civics test in your native language. If you take the test in your native language, you must bring an interpreter with you to your interview. Your interpreter must be fluent in both English and your native language. If you are age 65 or older and have been a permanent resident for at least 20 years at the time of filing for naturalization, you will be given special consideration regarding the civics requirement.
Maybe you should try finding acts before talking.
Read more at https://www.themonastery.org/blog/2018/12/immigrant-avoids-deportation-by-taking-shelter-in-d-c-church/#1LOf5rvYMWm4CGxR.99
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Mel
"Have you forgotten about boatloads of Cubans and Haitians coming to the shores of Florida?"
How could I forget? I had to close my shop in Miami right after that because the crime rate skyrocketed and the neighborhoods became unsafe to walk in. CARE TO GUESS WHY THAT HAPPENED? Idiot.
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Alicia
Linda....If they wanted to learn English, or spoke English, we would not need "Press 1 for Spanish". You seem to be living in a bubble. A mass of people are storming our southern border, waving the flags of the countries they claim to hate. How can you defend this?
Any church that harbors illegals needs to lose their tax exempt status immediately.
And for the record, I would gladly help an immigrant who comes here legally and shows love of the US. Those who take the tests come here legally. They are the ones who love this country.
Perhaps you need to open your eyes and see what others are posting. It's not hate. It's wanting to stay safe. Do you have locks on your doors, or do you just have a sign stating that all are welcome, so just come on in?
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Gerardo Defendini
I quote: English Language Exemptions You Are Exempt From The English Language Requirement, But Are Still Required To Take The Civics Test If You Are:
Age 50 or older at the time of filing for naturalization and have lived as a permanent resident (green card holder) in the United States for 20 years (commonly referred to as the “50/20” exception). OR Age 55 or older at the time of filing for naturalization and have lived as a permanent resident in the United States for 15 years (commonly referred to as the “55/15” exception). Note:
Even if you qualify for the “50/20” or “55/15” English language exceptions listed above, you must still take the civics test. You will be permitted to take the civics test in your native language. If you take the test in your native language, you must bring an interpreter with you to your interview. Your interpreter must be fluent in both English and your native language. If you are age 65 or older and have been a permanent resident for at least 20 years at the time of filing for naturalization, you will be given special consideration regarding the civics requirement.
Maybe you should try finding acts before talking.
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Lionheart
Interestingly, when I came here legally from England I was checked for my English. I found that I spoke better English than the person at the American Embassy in London interviewing me. I'm not sure what part of the backwoods he came from.
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Carl Elfstrom
That sounds bloody well right to me, ol' chap. However, my great grandfather Sir Ernest Grave of Manchester, was a Cambridge graduate in both civil engineering and mathematics, as well as being a member of a British order of knights, and lived in Galveston, Texas throughout his last few decades, and even wrote a mathematics textbook that was used in Texas schools for many years. He even retired from being a pharmacy tech at the old Marine hospital in Galveston, but remained a British Subject until he drew his last breath, at eighty five years old, to which I can only say "Jolly good show."
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Linda Happenny
Nope!!! Not going away!!! So you talk to your church members like.that? Are you really a ministers? What I said is.fact! I would shelter immigrant s in a heartbeat if.I.Had a.place for.them. It certainly would be the right thing to.do. They are human beings And have a.right to exist in this.world where ever they feel safe.
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Don
Do YOU act like this in public? Making nasty troll comments and then running away to post somewhere else without even having the integrity to respond to your comment? If my 8 year old acted like that she'd be grounded for a month. Grow up.
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The Doctor
Donny boy your the one that sounds like a troll. typical veiled insults you spew here to avoid being censored. Comparing people to kids I pray you do not have as I pity and fear for any child in your custody.
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Don
It's so cute how you school others on their grammar and cannot even spell "you're". And your hypocrisy on the veiled insults (shaming me while doing the exact same thing) is also cute. And by "cute" I mean sad and pathetic. Grow up.
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Lea Weisenbach
Linda..yes they do but illegally.
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Don
"I would shelter immigrant s in a heartbeat"
Nearly 600,000 American citizens are listed as Homeless. How many of them have you offered assistance to?
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Linda Happenny
Many! Addicts mostly! I don't appreciate you calling me.names. Obviously I can't have my own opinions and shut my mouth? This blog has become.a.nasty place but you are not.going.to.run me.out. please respect me. I do for.you.
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Don
"I don’t appreciate you calling me names."
Then perhaps you should not have come here spewing insults. You sound like a typical bully. You can throw all the insults you want, then cry like a child when it's done to you. If you can't take it, perhaps you should stop dishing it out.
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Don
"Obviously I can’t have my own opinions and shut my mouth?"
YOU were the one that came here and told us our opinions were worthless, remember?
Hypocrites suck.
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flugo
'half fanny': What a bunch of rot! These 'human beings' DO NOT have a right to exist where they want! There are country rules to follow, procedures to obey, etc. You are a contributor, enabler of a lawbreaker like she is. What a spineless, inane observation!
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The Doctor
Oh Flugo are you still harboring those incestuous rape fantasies for your sister you admitted to on these forums a few months back? You certainly are not fit to talk about what is right and wrong you rape fantasist.
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flugo
You have the spineless nerve to make groundless accusations. Is that the best you have for this site? Shame on your pitiful base mind!
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Rev. John D. Partin
Flugo Marx, would you even admit it if T'Keren Valmaz is correct about you and you did admit to having incestuous rape fantasies about your own sister in a post some months ago or would you swear up and down that "you didn't write that", even though you did?! If the latter is true, your denials and saying "what are you talking about?" don't mean anything or disprove the accusation!! You never tell the truth about anything else, anyway, and so why would you start with this?!!
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Carl Elfstrom
Glad you're back, Linda. I've missed you.
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Lea Weisenbach
There is a saying..."Care but don't carry". Its called taking responsibility for yourself...If you have been living in this country for 11 years and never became legal...Its your own fault...This game is over and time to pack your bags.
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Carl Elfstrom
Either that, or "Go for the gusto !"
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Milton
Why would legal immigrants be taking shelter in a church? If they followed the immigration process and respected the laws of the country they are coming to, why would they have any issues?
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Carl Elfstrom
If a kid grew up before he asked such questions, he wouldn't have to ask them.
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Alicia
Stop calling these people "immigrants". That word suggests they're here legally. They are ILLEGALS.
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flugo
A very important and valid distinction!
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The Doctor
Oh Bob FLugo, Most I know would agree even fantasizing about raping your sister is just as bad as doing it. SOmething you admitted to wanting to do to your sister for pretty much your whole life, on these very forums some months ago.
Ill say it again, You are not fit to say what is right and wrong you sick rape fantasist.
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flugo
I don't know what the hell you're talking about. Filthy mind you have. And you're wretched in your accusations.
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The Doctor
No the term is undocumented migrant. Refugee, asylum seeker etc. This womans soul crime was a simple lack of understanding common even among educated citizens of this country the first time they mess up with the law. She ignored a court summons, that was really the extent of her law breaking in any meaningful way. Crossing the border illegally is less a crime then a DUI yet you want to exile her to a hostile land she left behind 15 years ago and deprive her 3 children all US citizens of their mother, in effect denying them their right to happiness.
But we both know your real issue. She isnt white and english isnt her first language. Your obvious xenophobia and fear mongering are getting old Boris.
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Alicia
No...the term is ILLEGAL ALIEN. She came here illegally and knew it. She had hearings. She was ordered to leave and she refused.
As for your comment about the "real issue" being that this woman isn't "white" or that "English isn't her first language", I truly hope you weren't directing that comment to me since you know nothing about me. I try to treat people of all races and nationalities fairly and equally. MY issue is that these people come here illegally and end up getting a free ride.
She was here for 15 years and has kids, so why didn't she remedy her situation before it got to this point?
Sorry, but I have read a lot of your comments and you are just a nasty, sad, poor excuse for a human. You have no right to insinuate that ANYONE is racist considering the nastiness you have put up on this site.
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Jim
I could not agree with you more. You go girl.
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Carl Elfstrom
People are people so why should it be that you and I get along so awfully. I can't understand what makes a man hate a man. Please help me understand.
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Linda Happenny
I don't know how to tell you how wrong you are about me. I think you are the bullies, but you don't realize how much you hurt people. I can.take criticismcriticism, but your words are not. Because I don't agree with you, doesn't mean I.am wrong.
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Terry Mulkey
She is here illegally if she get her legal status then I'm all for her an her child to be here
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Tony
The border is to portect the USA and has oversight of the problem whithin our own. We have not been able yet too take care of here let alone who is seeking asilim within this border
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Dick Stone
I wonder what the Pope’s reaction would be if someone illegally took up residence in the Vatican, without permission, and refused to leave. Would he be as forgiving as when people did it in other countries?
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Minster Raydeen
We are all Children of God, nor Greek or Jew. Do we read the same Bible????
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Daniel
What happened to the saying, “There, but for the grace of God, go I?” We don’t know by what process we were fortunate enough to be born in a country where such diverse opportunities and opinions are allowed. But what if we had been born into an impovershed family in a country where our next meal was always uncertain and the threat of violence was an everyday thing? Wouldn’t we seek a safer location with more opportunities for our children. And with such a reasonable mistrust of authority figures, from our homeland, wouldn’t we also be reluctant to petition authorities for redress? I was born in Texas; a state that was stolen from Mexico after a bunch of illegal squatters picked a fight to get US support. Even so, if not for the unjust grabbing of Texas I would have been born in Mexico where life would have been much harder for my single mother, who might have tried to enter the US any way possible for the sake of her children. Beyond the political divisions let’s try not to forget that, when it comes to the migrants/refugees/ +/or “illegals”, There, but for the grace of God, go I.
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Don
"stolen from Mexico"
Oh gawd...land won in a bloody WAR is not stolen. To the victor go the spoils. No mention of the innocent American women and children raped and murdered by Santa Anna's Mexican army. Funny that.
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Daniel
Don- I never said the Mexican army was without faults. In fact your admission of the atrocities committed by them only supports the reasoning for why someone would seek to leave Mexico and come to the US. Even so, as the issue of how Texas became part of the US was your only complaint I would have to think that you agree with the rest of the post. The issue is Not politics and how to bash either Trump or the Democrats. The point I was trying to stress is that the people involved in seeking some degree of refuge in the US are PEOPLE, and that WE are fortunate to have been born in the US because we could have just as easily been one of the people trying to get here by whatever means possible.
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Don
"...supports the reasoning for why someone would seek to leave Mexico and come to the US."
Try to keep up. The caravan migrants aren't from Mexico. Nor is the woman in the article.
"WE are fortunate to have been born in the US because we could have just as easily been one of the people trying to get here by whatever means possible."
WE came here legally, and then rather than become a leech on the government, became firefighters and soldiers who fought and DIED for this country. NOTICE THE DIFFERENCE??
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Mitch
I want to thank you all for confirming my decision today to leave this church. I've never looked at the forum before, but was interested in seeing how the community felt about this topic. I am blown away by most of the comments and the lack of humanity (not to mention the spelling and grammar issues). And this has nothing to do with the topic of discussion, I believe everyone has a right to their own opinion. I am just really in awe about how people who claim to have the same religious beliefs and ideals speak to each other.
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Alicia
This is where you're wrong: we do NOT have all the same religious beliefs. I would say that most of us (if not all) believe in some higher power, however, I know that I do not believe the Bible is a true depiction of history.
While I have compassion, I know the difference between right and wrong. Anyone...from ANY country...who comes here illegally needs to go. we have enough issues here without having to deal with illegals. Yes, our southern border IS the focus but, not because anyone is racist. It's because that border is the easiest to cross without going through proper channels. Why not the north? Well...how many thousands of people flock in from Canada each year? I'm guessing not too many.
Those complaining about deporting illegals are, for the most part, hypocrites. Hollywood has a lot to say, but how many of those over-paid "celebrities" keep their doors wide open and allow anyone to walk into their homes? How many have walls and/or gates around their mansions? How many use armed security?
So, before you lump everyone who is against the churches protecting these illegals together, try to think of how we feel. These churches DO NOT PAY TAXES! They bring in money from their people, but NONE of it is taxable. That means that illegals are being kept "safe" on taxpayer money.
Also, think about this little tid-bit: Trump is NOT the first POTUS who wanted to build a wall! Look back on speeches...Clinton, Obama, Bush....all were for tighter security to stop the illegal problem. Trump is the only one with the balls to TRY to do something about it! Instead of the Democrats fighting him every step of the way, they need to negotiate! As long as there is some negotiation, this government shutdown could be stopped. It's give and take. Trump is a businessman. He understands how to negotiate, but the Democrats are so full of hate, they want nothing to do with him.
So, call us all racists, xenophobes, misogynists, whatever makes you feel better. I can tell you one thing: I am no racist. I just want to feel safe in my own country. Once the southern border is secured, we can work on how to stop illegals coming in via air or boat.
Leave the site, if you must, but that's on you. There are so many OTHER issues discussed here. Some comments are rude, but a majority are civil. And I do agree that many need some remedial work on spelling and grammar.
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Lionheart
Totally agree! ?
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Tom
Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are Gods".
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Bill Fox
1 Peter 2:13-17 13Submit yourselves for the LORD's sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, 14or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people. 16Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God's slaves. 17Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor. Titus 3:1 1Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, Romans 13:1 1Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Hebrews 13:17 17Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.
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Lionheart
And the purpose of quoting words from a fictional book is what exactly? We can all do that! I thought of quoting some words from Harry Potter but I’ll stick to your book.
Luke 12:47. And the servant (slave) which knew his lords will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live (Bad news for Harry Potter fans)
Exodus 22:19 Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death. (Bad news for Islamists who love goats when there are no children around)
You might look at these quotes and say, they have absolutely nothing to do with the topic, and you are right. I quote them to show how brutal and unloving your fictional character is that you quote.
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flugo
Best response yet!!
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Daniel
Lets also not forget how the Bible says Jesus came to bring a peace that surpasses all understanding while also talking about sowing dissent between the children and their parents - which I interpret as meaning that people should NOT follow the corrupt traditions +/or laws. Honoring our parents and authority figures includes a decision to break from entrenched errors. All of the quoted scriptures about submitting to the emperor/king/would-be ruling class are all fine and well, BUT, would the same thing still apply if we were living in Nazi Germany? Of course not!!! The US is not Nazi Germany but THE PEOPLE are STILL responsible for THEIR government. Emperors during biblical times are NOT the same as the democratic society we’re SUPPOSED to be living in!
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john shephard
Jesus would have definitely wanted to protect immigrants, as well as everybody else in the world, who by a huge landslide of a majority are not immigrants. He didn't play silly political games over which country are you from and what's your nationality. He knew all of us are brothers and sisters. He knows it still. Hopefully the rest of us will figure it out and build the wall so we have a border like all the other countries in the world. Jesus is very happy to protect those who want be immigrants right in their own country where God has put them. God is too loving to play PC and other ego games. But anybody who thinks we should have no borders and should let everyone in needs to be taking an unlimited number, ever increasingly, of immigrants into their homes. They need to take off their front door and take down their walls and fences because they don't believe in borders. Otherwise they would be phonies. Oblabla just built a ten foot wall around his place. I hope he has billboards up inviting illegal immigrants in. I'd hate to think he was just another liberal hypocrite.
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Don
Are you sure? This is the same Jesus who taught it was okay to beat slaves (Luke 12:47) and kill non believers (Luke 19:27). The Bible god you claim is loving uses the term Hate twice as much as Love in both Testaments.
Sounds like Jesus was - in your own words - a liberal hypocrite.
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John Owens
I haven't actually counted, because that is what goofballs do on this blog, but it seems you have mentioned this particular perversion of the scripture about 10 or more times on here. This must be a pet obsession of yours.
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Don
"perversion of the scripture" I quoted it verbatim.
Funny how when Scripture says something you find uncomfortable (or undefendable), it suddenly becomes a perversion.
Now I'm curious which Biblical authors Johnny thinks were perverts...
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Rik Venerable
If the Clergy won’t follow the laws put forth by the state, what faith can we have they will follow Gods laws.
Disloyal to one, disloyal to all.
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flugo
Excellent!
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Esther
Lets pray people of God
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Lionheart
Do you have a particular god in mind? Man has created so many.
Just asking!
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Joann Serger
This is just a case of Trump being the asshole that he is. We do not need to deported people just because he deems them unfit to live in our country and be U.S. Citizens. I say Deport him instead.
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Lionheart
You clearly don’t understand the issue. There’s nothing wrong with people wanting to be a U.S. citizen. Just join the line of those thousands that have applied legally and quit trying to jump the line, or ignore the line altogether by gate crashing. That’s not how the system works here! Those that really need deporting or those who are here illegally and are here milking the system paid for by our taxes.
Trump is the first President that has the balls to stand up for America and it’s citizens. Other presidents tried unsuccessfully to improve this situation but just gave lip service to the issue. They are the ones that had no balls. If any President needed deporting back to their country of origin it was Obama.
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Don
"If any President needed deporting back to their country of origin it was Obama."
You just invalidated any merit in your post with this asinine and utterly stupid garbage. Deport Obama to...Hawaii? Somebody tell this clown Hawaii is a state, not a country. Sober up before responding (I am assuming only a person under the influence would utter such trash).
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Thomas L Williamson
Agreed, illegal trespassers don't have permission to be in our country. They don't have background checks and our citizens and loved one's are at risk and their mercy.
Jesus told us to love our neighbors. Putting your nieghbors at un-necessary risk is not love.
Knowing who is playing with "Our children" and intermixing with Our families and protecting them is an act of love.
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Rev. John D. Partin
Lionheart, as in a hospital, those with the most urgent needs should receive the most immediate care. So, it is with immigration. If someone comes into a hospital with a sprained wrist or some other relatively minor problem and someone else comes in on a stretcher from a gunshot wound or having a heart attack, wouldn't the gunshot or heart attack victim be treated first, even if the other person came in ahead of them?! Likewise, the person in need of asylum should receive help first, ahead of other people who are just seeking normal immigration into this country and just visiting here and we should follow suit in the matter of immigration. Also, Trumpelstiltskin isn't standing up for America, but, rather, standing America down in the eyes of the world by this disgrace going on at our border with overcrowding in detention centers and no showers or decent or adequate food or clothing in them and children's being separated from their families and a father and daughter drowning in the Rio Grande because they tried to swim across it and didn't think that they could get asylum here!! He has made America a laughing stock in the eyes of the people of the world!! That isn't his standing up for America!! Finally, Obama was born in Hawaii, which isn't a foreign country, but one of our states, and so doesn't need to and can't be deported, anyway.
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp MSW
I agree with your Joann. If the asylum seekers were from Norway this would not be an issue for him or for his cult followers. The Coward in Chief/Bone Spurs is as racist thru and thru. I agree, he should be deported.
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Alicia
Here is where your argument is flawed: Those seeking asylum from Norway (though why would they?) are not simply walking across our borders. They're coming here LEGALLY...usually by plane. They have passports and VISAs. If they overstay their VISAs, they, too, will be deported. This has nothing to do with race...it has to do with the ease of which these people can jump the border. What about that don't you understand?
Also, for the record, those coming now in that 10,000 person caravan are NOT asylum seekers. They were offered asylum in Mexico, but they refused. How could they say they are seeking asylum when they refused it? What was wrong? Mexico didn't offer them free housing, education, healthcare, that's what's wrong.
So, Catherine...obviously you would rather think that it's a "racist" issue than agree that something needs to be done. Illegals are a problem. A BIG problem.
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp MSW
Excuse me, There is no "argument." I was commenting to Joann and did not ask for your opinion or anyone else's. Too bad you do not like my comment to her, get over yourself. Racists are racists. End of story.
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Don
"I was commenting to Joann and did not ask for your opinion or anyone else’s."
Yes, you did, by commenting on a public message board. If you don't ask or want others' opinions, STOP POSTING HERE.
Hypocrites are hypocrites. End of story.
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Alicia
WOW! You are truly triggered! LOL!
Excuse me, but this is a public forum. If you don't want comments, don't post. It's as simple as that. But, you'd rather call those you don't know racist rather than listen to reason. Oh, well....Bye, Felicia!
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Jim
To wit Catherine after reading all of your comments I have concluded that you are the racist. It matters not where they come from. IF THEY COME HERE ILLEGALLY, WHITE, EUROPEAN, ASIAN, MEXICAN, AFRICAN, CHINESE, JAPANESE no matter sent em home TILL THEY OBEY OUR LAW. Only a racist would point out a particular race...…...
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Alicia
And by calling ANYONE an "asshole" you show us all what a "nice" person YOU are.
Sorry, but if someone is here illegally it's not someone HE DEEMS UNFIT! It's someone who doesn't belong because they came here ILLEGALLY.
Get it now?
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Secretary3rd
Know what happens when the IRS suspends the 501 (c) (3) of any religious body. The city shows up. The township shows up.The county shows up. The State shows up. The church will now be hit with a tax bill. Anyone who stops ICE from doing their job would be arrested. The City of Chicago Catholic churches do not allow anyone not employed by the Church to stay in one of their churches over night. Homeless are not allow to stay overnight. Those seeking a place to stay because for what ever reason if they do not leave on their own would be arrested. That keeps them out of trouble.
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp MSW
The Coward in Chief/Bone Spurs is the racist and has been fueling hatred for anyone not white since his campaign. He whined on national tv about why people are not coming from Norway instead of from Central and South American countries. You do not have to agree with me about the lying POTUS, but anyone who defends white supremacists and their violence and hatred is a racist. No one was called a racist on this blog, so just stop the foolishness.
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Alicia
I hate to break this to you, Catherine, but YOU have called people racists on this blog. Please take your holier than thou attitude elsewhere.
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp MSW
Grow up and stop your insults. You might do better to become a little more holier yourself since you claim to be a "minister." I feel sorry for anyone you might pass yourself off as a spiritual person. I am not leaving but you are free to return to the land of your ancestors. Anyone who supports white supremacists is a racist including the Coward in Chief/Bone spurs.
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Don
"Grow up and stop your insults"
You first - "I feel sorry for anyone you might pass yourself off as a spiritual person." - "Too bad you do not like my comment to her, get over yourself."
Hypocrites suck.
"you are free to return to the land of your ancestors"
You first. Better get started, it's a long walk!
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Jim
Alicia, Don, You cant fix stupid and I'm afraid that Catherine is about as stupid as they come. I would stop wasting my posts in response to her endless rants about the "native Americans" that Migrated here FROM OTHER COUNTRIES. Then lost it to others in wars. She just cannot comprehend the whole thing. I have tried to teach her a little history but again she cannot comprehend. I have tried to teach her the laws of the land but again she cannot comprehend. At this point it is just not worth the effort. You would think someone with all those initials after their name would have some knowledge but the way our public school systems are teaching these days I guess I understand and her parents probably did not spend the time with her to point out real life. It's really not her fault.
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Don
It's so cute how the cowardly name callers and spewers of insults lack the courage to even respond to their hate-filled rants. (and by "cute" I mean childish and pathetic)
Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, you've been exposed. Now is the time to change your race-baiting hateful ways.
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp MSW
You are a fool. Your cult leader/Coward in Chief/Russian asset is the race baiter. How sad that you are on a minister's site. Fake spirituality. It is time for you to see that we are all children of this Universe as our ULC advises us. Asylum seekers are our sisters and brothers. Go back to your roots foolish man or accept the diverse peoples of our world and love our neighbors. Your attempts to insult me or that fool who thinks he has the capacity to educate me or anyone else here is not at all valuable and is quite laughable. You cannot harm me so give up your silly and misguided crusade and grow spiritually.
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Lionheart
Catherine, try explaining your rhetorical statements to the families left fatherless, motherless, or raped by those who came here illegally without being vetted. I’m just thinking they might not have the same “children of the universe” “flower power sisters and brothers” feeling that you do.
You’ll be telling us next that you don’t live in a house with walls, doors and windows that you close and lock up at night to prevent unwelcome intruders. Or do you leave everything open for your brothers and sisters on this planet to just walk into your home to take over, for you to provide for them?
Pelosi, Obama, Schumer, et al sure don’t.
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John Owens
Not once have I heard our current President race-baiting. I have heard the "resistance" doing it over and over.
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Alicia
Catherine, Catherine, Catherine....You have shown yourself to be the most nasty of the bunch. Do you get off on showing others how hypocritical, judgmental and asinine you are? Be proud because you succeeded in letting us know the true you.
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp MSW
I'm so sorry that Comrade Trump supporters are offended by my strong words. Continue to use your foul language if it makes you feel better. I support those less fortunate, including asylum seekers, who are my indigenous cousins from Central and South America, like it or not. You can continue to throw your arrows, but it does not change my opinion of asylum seekers and their children who have been kidnapped and put in cages. This is not the first time this has happened in the US, but it should be the last time that children are treated like animals.
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Thomas L Williamson
Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus give permission to break the law. He came to fulfill the law. Trespassing, other-words intruding without permission, is not love. It's not respect for Jesus, nor respect for our Father in Heaven. It's an act of selfishness and contempt for our laws and the rights of our citizens.
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flugo
Very good!
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Don
"Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus give permission to break the law"
Um...
"And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves"
Leading by example...
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Jim
Don there were no laws allowing the merchants to sell in the temple. He did not break a law when doing this. While I have agreed with many of your posts I think you kinda went over on this one. He did set the example by showing that the merchants using the temple for business was not right. Although nowadays I think a large number of the churches are nothing more than a business.
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Don
"He did not break a law when doing this"
Assaulting and robbing people didn't break any laws?? Humans had laws prior to the Bible, codified and everything. And violence/stealing were certainly a part of Hammurabi's Codex.
I think you are mistaken.
"He did set the example" He certainly did, by attacking innocent merchants and robbing them of a day's work.
I'm certain you would feel differently if you were the hungry child of one of the merchants who had their entire stock of doves scattered and set loose by a violent radical (Jesus).
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MICHAEL SPINELLI
You are right Jim. The Church today to many pastors, Reverends, and religious leaders is nothing more than a cash cow. Its a shame because they will never have the presence of our Lord Father God.
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Thomas L Williamson
There is no excuse to enter the United States undocumented and Illegal. Those who do, know they are tresspassing.
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flugo
Right on!
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MICHAEL SPINELLI
CORRECT
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Helena
Whether she likes it or not she must leave. If you are a follower of Christ then there is no issue. Christ commanded that we follow the laws of the land you are in. They has been deported, even though it may not feel right, they must leave. Try again later but defying the law of this land means when they leave that church then may never be allowed to return. Rebellion is not a fruit of the Spirit but a trait of the Great Deceiver. Compassion is the enemy's best weapon. Submit just as Christ submitted or you are not a child of God.
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp MSW
Miss Helena, First off, Christ was an immigrant in case you were not aware. Secondly, Christ also spoke against those in power and encouraged others to do the same. He did not like the power or political operations of the high priests and Romans. Today he would be arrested for sedition and anarchy. Thirdly, this is about asylum seekers. Perhaps if you read up on how people have to apply for asylum you might be more compassionate of those less fortunate who are running for their lives and the lives of their children. You are free to dispute,get nasty, and name call as others do here, but it does not change facts that are written in your holy book and current US laws of asylum and immigration. Peace and harmony to you.
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Rev. John D. Partin
Helena, submission to an unjust law or tyrannical government isn't being a child of God or follower of Christ! The Jews in Nazi Germany and Nazi controlled countries were also illegal aliens under that regime and hiding them and giving them refuge was against the law, which could get you and them sent off to a concentration camp if you were caught doing it. Yet, actual Christians did hide the Jews and give them refuge because there is a higher law than just the law of man and that is the law of love and compassion for other people!! You say that "Compassion is the enemy's best weapon", but that isn't how Jesus felt about it, since he said "Love your neighbor as yourself" and "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you" and "Whatsoever you have done unto the least of these, my brethren, you have done unto me" and told the parable of the Good Samaritan and concluded by saying "Go and do thou likewise". Help the person who is in trouble and fleeing from persecution or being killed and help the stranger in your midst!! That is actual Christianity, but you would never know that by listening to many so-called "Christians" today or seeing what they actually do!! We aren't required to follow unjust laws or tyrannical governments at all and turn our backs on people who need our help and not give them refuge, just telling them "Go back where you came from!! There is no room for you here!! (no room at the inn!)". Our doing so is really the betrayal of Christ and disobedience to his law, putting the law of man above that!!
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
Helena: I am totally fed up with you and your fellow fundi-bible thumpers preaching. Your damn INTERPRETATION of the bible is NOT the final word. And the bible is not the infallible, inerrant word of god anyway. Just go away.
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John Owens
Just an observation-- the "priestly garments" worn by the woman and man on either side of the photo look tacky and too busy.
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Alicia
Well....they want everyone to know what "good Christians" they are. :::::rolling eyes:::::
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Jim
Don, "Assaulting" "robbing" Maybe I have a different version than you but I do not recall any physical contact he told them to leave my fathers house and knocked over tables. Now as this happened long ago and we cannot really know exactly what happened, I would guess that their was most likely laws that said you could not set up shop inside the temples. If you think about it this would most likely be the case. So like a vendor that set up today without a permit would be in violation of the law. Jesus was not arrested for what he did therefore I would assume he had the right to do it or he would have been arrested. Some common sense here is needed as there is no way either of us could actually know what happened. As for the hungry child of the merchant again you don't know that the merchants even had kids. You add in robbery where based on what we know there was no robbery. As I said before I think you went over the line on this one.
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Don
"you don’t know that the merchants even had kids"
And you don't know that Jesus even existed. That doesn't seem to stop you from telling stories about him.
Sorry you think I went over the line. You might want to investigate your bias. You didn't think I went over the line when I called Mohammed a murdering child abuser.
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Jim
Wrong again Don, To me Jesus did and still does exist. As for Mohammed being a murdering child abuser I don't recall reading that so I will just have to say that you went over the line there as well. But you know what Don you have the right to your opinion as do I. I stated that I felt you crossed the line and you feel you did not, so we will just have to agree to disagree. Besides it appears we are getting off topic. This lady should be deported as the court ordered and if the church is going to harbor her then they should have their tax exempt status revoked. I do not think the church should be a safe haven for criminals of any kind.
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Don
"To me Jesus did and still does exist."
Um, okay. Does Harry Potter exist to you as well, or do you only use that line for some fictional characters and not others?
"you went over the line there as well"
Please explain how stating facts "goes over the line".
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Jim
Now you see Don I was trying to be respectful of your beliefs and avoid any derogatory remarks about you and you have to act like some others on here and start to get insulting. You would not know a "FACT" if it hit you in the face. Unless you were there you just don't know. As you and others say the bible is not factual then why do you want to use it as fact if you do not feel that it is real. You want to attack someone because they believe in something that you do not. I can't see the air around me but I know its there. I feel sorry for people like you Don. I have never watched a Harry Potter movie and the fact that you used that as a reference just tells me the childish nature of your comments. I want to have conversations with intelligent people who want to hear other views and not some insulting childish rhetoric. I will leave you with that and do not plan to exchange comments with you any longer. Have a great life. (in other words you are not worth my time).
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Don
"You want to attack someone because they believe in something that you do not"
You stated a BELIEF as a FACT. You claim I do not know what a fact is...beliefs are NOT facts, Jim, no matter how much you wish they were.
"I can’t see the air around me but I know its there"
Oh gawd...really? We have EVIDENCE that air exists. We can measure it, weigh it, measure its affects. I remember this "argument" from a Creationist when I was in grade school.
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Don
"insulting childish rhetoric"
"You would not know a “FACT” if it hit you in the face" "I feel sorry for people like you" "you are not worth my time"
Hypocrites suck. Have a nice life.
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As long as the church is willing to support them on EVERYTHING THEY NEED and they do not become a burden on the state, let them stay AT THE CHURCH GROUNDS if they want. But because they are breaking the law lets also resend the churches tax free status. I feel their is more to this story than what is being reported. My guess is she has been arrested for something else and therefore is being deported.
You are totally right. What ever problem she has she needs to return to her country with her children. I understand her child has special needs but these needs cost us. She must go back and trust in Father God
Those children are U.S. citizens no matter how that must offend you. She is not some threatening criminal, but a hard working single mother. You clearly dont have any concept of the faith and philosophy of the god you mention.
She has done nothing to deserve being treated like a threat to society. Her children have every right to be here, and have the right to have their mother be here to look after them.
It really should be that simple 3 U.S. citizens her children have the right to life liberty and happiness, and taking their mother and sending her to a place she has had no contact with for 15 years is cruel and frankly insane.
Those Children are NOT Citizens, unless they were born to a Citizen or Legal resident. This legal question has been settled time and time again (even to the SCOTUS level) Just b/c liberals (Politicians, Judges and media) tend to ignore the Law does not make it any less THE LAW.
They were born in America, that makes them American citizens. They have literally never know anywhere else! How are they not Americans??
The mother is remaining here -illegally- no matter how much that offends you. There's no picking and choosing what laws you follow in this country.
Send her home
Everyone has to live by laws. She has broken the law, refuses to follow it she should be sent home. Jesus will protect her and her children if she is one of his children. Being a criminal,and continuing to be is defying The Word.
Excellent!
Your comment is very inconsiderate to the situation, why should the law be enforced to the letter? Is there not any situations where breaking the law would be the correct thing to do?
For example, if a government ordered you to go out and kill X group of people, would you do it if it were legal and officially mandated? Of course you wouldn't.
Just because something is legal, that doesn't make it right. The people of that community should be allowed a referendum or at least an informal choice of wether to allow them to stay in their community and by extension the US.
Also, interpreting the Bible literally is plainly ignoring everything Jesus taught and stood for. There is a reason he spoke in parables and the like.
Matthew 5:17 - 20
You can also read the ten commandments.
Breaking the law is simply breaking God's law.
If a man rapes a woman, should he not be punished if his excuse is that he needed a woman?
If someone holds-you-up with a gun and takes your car, should they not be punished if they were tired of walking?
If someone hacks your credit card and goes shopping and spends over 100 billion dollars. Should they not be punished if their excuse is, " I don't care about your laws!"
Excellent, Thomas!
Matthew 22:21 Jesus said "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's." Romans 13:1 "Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God and those which exist are established by God." Clear is the word.
The best posting on this issue yet!
Ralph McKinzie, there are unjust and tyrannical governments and laws, as was Hitler's Germany and the former Soviet Union and South Africa and even the British Empire over India and other countries and unjust laws and apartheid in those countries or even here in America in the South with its segregation and discriminatory laws and practices. None of deserve the same obedience or respect that just governments and laws receive, which was the whole point of the Civil Rights movement and demonstrations, protests against apartheid in South Africa, and WWII against Hitler. Our own United States of America came into being because of our defiance of and rebellion against an unjust and tyrannical government in England and the Revolutionary War against it. So, you can't honestly or reasonably say that all governments and laws should be obeyed because all governments and laws are, quite clearly, not established by God. Only the truly good ones are and this immigration law that would deport an innocent mother and her children and many other people isn't one of those good laws and should be disobeyed!!
Correction: "None of those deserve the same obedience or respect that just governments and laws receive..."
Totally agree.
I have no problem with accepting legal migrants. I am totally against receiving any illegal migrants. Our borders must be respected. We all have some kind of borders around our homes. Boundaries. Why do we lock our doors, why do we put up fences (to keep out uninvited people). We can not become a haven for law breakers. It will destroy our country. R. Landis
We are to obey the law. We are also to love our neighbors. Jesus points out those who share the love of Jesus are his. We do have illegals crossing our borders without any documentation. I have people who have moved into our community that refuse to let their children with my 5 year old. They have fired guns, some sound like automatic rifes. A long time neighbor, " a woman" has been shot at 3 different time and has moved out. The played loud bar room music all night Christmas eve until daylight Christmas. They throw nasty trash on the road. I have photos of their goats and chickens on my property. I have photos of them trespassing on my property. They dont know or obey our laws. Trump wants 5 billion for a wall. It is my understanding that our government gives over 100 billion every year in benefits to illegals. Those who cross illegal don't come to love, like or become anything like us. The Bible has many stories about enemies taking the spoils of others.