They are Risen? The Church of England is considering doing away with gendered pronouns for God altogether in an effort to adopt more inclusive language.
A new commission will discuss whether or not to officially adopt the new language this spring, and should they make any formal recommendations, the church’s synod would have to officially sign-off on it.
That could mean that “He” and “Him” would no longer be appropriate when referencing God in prayer, and that the Lord’s Prayer would likely drop the “our Father” phrase.
Is a gender-neutral God coming to a church near you?
Is God Gender-Neutral?
This seismic shift in how to refer to God comes amid mounting interest from worshippers.
Reverend Joanna Stobart, a vicar in the diocese of Guildford, Surrey, is among those leading the charge. In a statement to church leadership, she wrote:
"Please could the Liturgical Commission provide an update on the steps being taken to develop more inclusive language in our authorized liturgy. And to provide more options for those who wish to use authorized liturgy and speak of God in a non-gendered way, particularly in authorized absolutions where many of the prayers offered for use refer to God using male pronouns?"
And leadership appears to be listening, though the change would require a formal process.
"A new joint project on gendered language will begin this spring,” explained Rt Rev Dr Michael Ipgrave, Bishop of Lichfield. “In common with other potential changes to authorized liturgical provision, changing the wording and number of authorized forms of absolution would require a full synodical process for approval.”
While the Church of England is underlining that a move this drastic will require leadership to sign off, they’re also saying that, well, times change.
“This is nothing new. Christians have recognised since ancient times that God is neither male nor female, yet the variety of ways of addressing and describing God found in scripture has not always been reflected in our worship,” explained a spokesperson for the Church. “There has been greater interest in exploring new language since the introduction of our current forms of service in contemporary language more than 20 years ago.”
Church Gone Woke?
Unsurprisingly, the idea of a gender-neutral God – upending thousands of years of tradition – is causing some friction in the church.
“We’re being a bit woke,” conceded one anonymous priest, who nevertheless defended the potential language revision.
But not everyone is a fan of the Church considering a pronoun overhaul when it comes to God.
“I sincerely hope the bishops of this fine country of ours have been on the phone to [Archbishop of Canterbury] Mr. Welby and said wise up for God's sake,” added Irish actor Charlie Lawson. “There is absolutely nothing good about this at all.”
The Future of God's Pronouns
As it stands now, the church has only announced their intention to begin a formal discussion in the coming months, so it’s entirely possible that ‘God the Father’ won’t be going anywhere.
Regardless, even the possibility of more inclusive language when talking about God has caused quite an uproar in the Christian community in the United Kingdom and beyond.
What do you think? Is more inclusive language for God the right move? Or is it simply a performative appeal to progressive parishioners?
116 comments
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Lidia C. Limon
I stand and believe only what the Bible says.
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Marla Ellen Winters
Seems like a way to make the church appear "inclusive." Sematics....This seems like a way to avoid real issues related to people as people. You are who you are!! Sounds to me like a way to say look, we are changing with the times. But are they? Do they allow same sex marriage? Who knows what pronoun God would choose? Out of respect we ask individuals how they would like to be addressed. Did anyone ask GOD?
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Marc Warren Mauss
The English language already has a un-gendered pronoun. If there is no gender, use the pronoun "it". If, on the other hand, if there is a sex, but you're not sure which, use the masculine pronoun, "he". That does NOT necessarily mean "male", it means EITHER male or indefinate sex.
Some say that using the masculine pronoun in this case makes less of females, but it could also be viewed the other way: Females get their own pronoun, "she", but males have to share theirs with those of unknown (indefinite) sex.
BTW, please don't conflate "sex" with "gender". Sex is an attribute of people and other animate entities, while "gender" is an attribute of words. There are only two sexes, male and female. English has three genders, masculine, feminine, and neuter. (Some languages have more than three genders.)
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John Alex Paxson
After reading all these comments I now know why the world is the way it is ...I hope humanity lasts.....
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Lionheart
While ever mankind puts its belief and energy into praising something where there’s no evidence it exists, we are doomed, John.🤷🏼
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
By Merriam-Webster's definition, ALL Christians should be woke. 1: aware of and actively attentive to important societal facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice)
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Robert Gagnon
people unhappy with who they were born as is not an important issue.
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Harry James Tomkinson
I will add just one comment, that is Jesus taught us to pray: "Our Father in Heaven" need I say more!
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
Harry James Tomkinson Jesus all said: Matthew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
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Irene Lucewicz
Our father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven, give us this day, our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil amen. I’ve been saying this since I can remember talking this is our lords prayer and this is the way Christians got to continue and saying it amen!
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Deborah Jean Howard
I do not feel that we need to change the Bible. The Bible has been changed so many times. To fit modern times. What we need to do is practice acceptance. We shouldn’t have to worry if they say she he it. Whatever. Except people for who they are and what they are. It does not matter if you’re gay or straight. As long as you got the love of God inside of you.
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William Sadler
Has anyone here viewed Outfoxed: Rupert Murdoch's War on Journalism 2004 documentary? When the FCC was deregulated in 1996, the worst legacy of the Zippergate Presidency of WJ Clinton, Fox News was given free reign to wield unimagined influence on the willfully uninformed. Gone was the previously required allowance of the "other side" and a full scale propaganda machine was unloosed. The Trump debacle would be unimaginable without the Murdoch related machine of disinformation.
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Rev. Jim Sutton
As much as I prefer the male/masculine nouns used when talking about, and referring to, God, The Bible kind of 'argues' elsewise. In Gen. 1:26-27, God uses the plural when referring to himself. But it's Gen. 1:27 all by itself that I find to be the most telling. Capitalized words my emphasis. "So God created man/humans in His image, IN THE IMAGE of God he created THEM; male AND female He created THEM." One reading of this indicates that man and woman were created AT THE SAME TIME (and, thus, the beginning of the "Lilith tradition"). Which means BOTH genders were created at the same time. Which leads to the question "What 'plan' or 'blueprint' did God follow in creating man and woman?" The animals he created first? Gen. 1:20-26 Was that His practicing? (Some pretty weird animals/living things were created.) However, in Gen. 2:18-20, God created the animals AFTER He created man. So, what or where was the template. "He created them ... in His image." That makes God male and female. Anyone brave enough to say "hermaphrodite"? When creating, one usually starts experimenting with what One knows, and then goes from there. Plus, Genesis 1:26-27 is not the only place in The Bible where God speaks in the Plural. He seems to alternate between Singular and Plural. Of course, this could be a convention of The Bible's writers who could not comprehend all that God is. As food for thought, and given today's "nu" normal, all of us could "identify as" Plural. Each of use had three personal nouns that apply --- "me," "myself," and "I." And two referral nouns --- he/him, she/her. Basically, Plurality is all around us. So why shouldn't God be? Using the masculine forms. (FYI, "god" is masculine, "goddess" is feminine. Let's not confuse the two.)
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Rev. Jim Sutton You do realize what you are reading is a translation of the Bible into English. How could you not know this if you are a Rev? The Bible was written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. The reason you are finding pronoun inconsistencies is because Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek have masculine, feminine and neuter descriptors and between the three languages they are different.
How could you be a Rev and not know that? You should have learned this on your fist day of Bible study. Sorry, but you must have had a terrible teacher.
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James Philip Reader
The Deity is beyond human concepts such as gender.
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Gerardo Garza
I just figured since God was man's creation, the most obvious would follow.
Just because Christ had long hair, his position as the son of God, should not be questioned next.
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Gerardo Garza
I just thought that since God is man's creation, thus the obvious would follow.
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David Buck
The Church of England, in a vain attempt to remain 'relevant', seems hell-bent on offending those people who remain with it from the good old days. I find this proposal offensive in the extreme. One hopes the Archbishop of Canterbury has the common dog to nip this proposal in the bud, but these days you can never tell. Lately it seems the C of E has abandoned 'Holier than thou" in favour of "So much more left wing and woke than anybody else".
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David A Griffith
Beautifully written.
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Jose Francisco Vasquez
In the Book of Exodus when Moses asks God what is God’s name, the reply is: I AM WHO I AM. God speaks to Moses through a burning bush. In both instances God does not declare a gender preference. If God does not declare a gender preference why do we feel compelled to give God a gender? This is more of our hang-up then God’s need or desire.
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Lionheart
As there is still no demonstrable evidence that Moses, or any God, is real, why are we talking about this?
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Amanda Jane Cramer
G-d always has, and always be, G-d. It is not necessary to change the words He, Him, and/or Lord when referring to Him. If people wish to praise a Godess, there are many faiths that have them.
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Mark Shannon Parkhurst
To whom this may concern, the heavenly father describes the future of mankind coming to the father and the son right hand of the father that we will have no gender because there's no need for reprocreation in a spiritual being or transformed being without gender has aliens are described genderless because they're robots and not really aliens packed in sardine cans and warehouses around the world nonetheless, let us not worry about what we need to do with the future or the past we need to get our hearts right we need to love show Mercy show giving and loving and caring in obedience and righteousness and modesty most likely cuz modest is going out the window and we need to be more considerate for those who have no part in the publicity that's going on around the world and people need to keep their hands off each other no matter what the situation is bad or good good or bad blah blah blah we need to just think before we react and talk things out let's not be physical let's not use weapons to destroy one another we have enough of that going on with just chemicals and man-made plagues as enough is enough let's grow up show our children the way we need to be so they can grow up and take over when we're gone we're not teaching them what we need to teach them actually there's a handful of you that are high up money makers you know they got their colleges they got there you know universities but nonetheless we have ours we who study the word and preach the truth and the truth is living we will live on no matter what being we are so we need to be in the right mind so we end up in the right places where we need to be at the right moment for All mankind and let every child learn what we are leaving behind so they can take over continuously rebuilding rebuilding every building tell this Earth decides to give up mankind let us not over state the purpose why we're here today gender does not matter there's people who are on this Earth that are celibate where does gender come in the way you go to the bathroom where you take your eyes when you go to the bathroom people that are men are walking in women's bathrooms and women are walking in men's bathrooms because they don't have a choice so the thing is if you got a tallywacker go to the men's bathroom if you don't go to the women's that's what we need correction you are what you are.
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Lionheart
Susan Hansen DiCola, (above 👆), makes some good points about the Christian mythical god. If we were made in his image, does he have nipples, if so, why?
As for, does it use “they/them” pronouns, if it did should we now rephrase the words Menstruate to Themstruate? Just askin’ for a fisherthem friend of mine that used to be known as a fisherman 🤭
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Paul Kay
God is light
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Lionheart
Yes, I see him every time I switch on my flashlight. I’m struggling to get it to heal children from cancer though. Do I need stronger batteries, or a bigger light bulb to help them heal? 🤔
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Lionheart You don't need stronger batteries, or a bigger light bulb to heal children from cancer, you just need to talk to your flashlight and get others to talk to it too and give you money. The prayers to the flashlight might not cure the cancer, but they will allow you to live a more comfortable life.
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Paul Kay
God is liight it does not have a gender
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James Riggle-Johnson
The Bible is a collection of stories written by men interpreting something outside their experience or making up stories to inspire people to behave better or control them. The whole “God created man in HIS image” is one of the stories. Men wrote those stories, chose which ones to include, and even those stories have been rewritten.
I wonder what God thinks of all this. Is He/She/They/Them laughing and wondering why church leaders are worried about this when most people pretend to be Godly but are using God to justify hatred? Just Sayin...
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Susan Hansen DiCola
So, my argument has always been that God/He was sexist. Who decided, besides the church, that this almighty being was male? Then, if He is male, how do you know? Does He have a penis? Other male genitals? Isn't that how conservatives have decided to claim gender identity? What does He use them for? Not procreation as a HE cannot give birth. Sex? With whom? When? Why? To satisfy Himself? What would be the purpose of these organs? If He doesn't have the normal male sex organs, what makes Him a HE? So many questions. I could go on, but why? Men decided to claim the Almighty as their own to control women. Period. They have been afraid of us from the beginning because we control the MAGIC, Birth. They had to find a way to take power over females. End of story.
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Reverend Steven DeGon
What's offensive is the disrespect given to our lord/God. He is perfect and he makes no mistakes. He created man/woman nothing more nothing less. This bi sexuality is pure nonsense and offensive to christians and even non Christians alike. This world has/is creating a war on God and we have to stand firm ground and do not allow this anymore. They took the bible out of our schools which taught about Jesus Christ our lord and a sense of morality.
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Reverend Steven DeGon
What's offensive is the disrespect given to our lord/God. He is perfect and he makes no mistakes. He created man/woman nothing more nothing less. This bi sexuality is pure nonsense and offensive to christians and even non Christians alike. This world has/is creating a war on God and we have to stand firm ground and do not allow this anymore. They took the bible out of our schools which taught about Jesus Christ our lord and a sense of morality.
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Tom
Why would it be offensive to non-Christians who don't believe that a god created the universe or man and woman?
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Rev. Jim Sutton
If God makes no mistakes, then why did he put the temptation of "the tree of knowledge of good and evil" IN the Garden of Eden then tell Adam not to eat from it? Gen. 1:16-17 And why did he create the 'serpent,' the only talking animal? Gen. 3:1 And why did He allow the 'serpent' to be IN the Garden and allow it to talk to the "Woman" (she had not yet been named)? Gen. 3:1-5
To me, these are just three examples of God setting up man and woman to fail. I call that a "mistake" or an "error of judgement."
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Edward L St.John
thank you.
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Mike Silva
If a person has to ask whether God is male or female or gender neutral then they have not become trained according to God’s Holy Spirit. All this is covered in the Scriptures. The physical person looks to all things according to their own likeness. ( earthly terms ) The spiritual person is created in God’s likeness. And sees and has understanding in God’s likeness. ( spiritual) God is neither male nor female. God is Spirit. All creatures created in God’s likeness are aware that although while existing on the Earth in physical form shall reside in a fleshly vessel. However, when we are recreated in the spiritual sense we reside in a spiritual body as well in our mind and spirit. Refer to the New Testament and especially study the teachings of apostle Paul. He further explains that we have a physical and also a spiritual one as well!!! Michael Z Archangel
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Ahmed Abduljabar Al-Hujazi
Only humans would be so arrogant as to presume to understand God enough to assign a gender.
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Lionheart
…or even arrogant enough to think there really is a god that helps them to score goals, or pass exams, in preference to not healing children dying of cancer 🤔
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Richard Lee Cornell
Your God is a She. Unless your a low witted fool to think otherwise. AfterLife2*org
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Wilberta M. Berry
Genesis chapter 1 verses 26-31 said " let us make man in our image" then they preceeded to make all living things male and female. What difference does it truly make how people in the 21st century want to interpret something from Bronze Age era if the point is the " church" wanting to bring more people into the fold and having a relationship with their God. Everyone has a RIGHT to see God as they choose in a way that makes sense to them. This is the root of the problem with religion. The powers that be have already Anthropomorphized God in their image, which has made the need for a God go terribly wrong.
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John M. Endress
“They” is plural and we refer to One God. Since God is neither male nor female, a different pronoun is needed, and we need it now
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Nicole Wojtyska
God loves everyone. Why does everyone hate Gods children because they're different ? Who says they cannot be loved ? They deserve love just like anyone else does .
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Lionheart
Ummm 🤔, I don’t think he loved those children of the first born though that he killed, and also those he drowned in the flood. Bit of a dichotomy there, Nicole.
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Ronaldo
In the earliest forms of the Bible, God is referred to as the Father, and Jesus is the Son. While some translations of the Lord's Prayer from Aramaic mention 'father-mother' or 'birther', most translations say 'thou', or 'creator', or 'parent' rather than the word 'mother'. Since God is all-powerful, He or She could choose any form. Other gods have chosen the forms of animals when they appeared to men, but the Christian God has chosen to appear as male when He walked the Earth. Arguing about the gender or sex of a spiritual being who can choose any form is a waste of time. I'd rather just stick with the tradition, since all of that information is already available and has acceptable translations.
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Mary Haviland
This is regarding the person who thinks the bible was written by the devil, and has been mistranslated thousands of time. First of all where's your proof. Secondly. The Hebrews/Jewish writers of the scriptures, which is what most of the txt if the old and newtestament was written in, is very careful to get the translations of their language and texts correct. They are adamant about getting it right, secondly, there has been many documents which have recently been found that has much of the same historical information in it and says the same things that are in the other txts in the bible says. Even the doctor from the dead seas scrolls and the book of Mormons. It is a history. Which most of it can be collaborated by historical evidence and by people who had families that had lived in the areas for thousands of years. Your premise is wrong, otherwise schools in certain parts of the country would not have been given the approval by judges to allow the teachings of the bible in schools as parts of history. Because that's us what it was. And how do you explain the same info being written down so accurately over the thousands of years in which the writers of the scrolls who wrote them lived hundreds and maybe thousands of miles apart from each other and still had the same info in it. The devil doesn't do that. The devil doesn't even get the time lines with what we do know if history correct. That's us how they can tell fake from really documents. What? Do you think the scholars are so stupid about history that they believe any and all writings out there and just throws them all together in one book. No, they don't. They are careful as to making sure the info corresponds with known history and the time lines. If you believes the info is incorrect or the writings if the devil. Then prove it.
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Susan Christine Giganti
You are right Mary H. The Bible was translated and rewritten over centuries. By people , not a devil. Each copy contained some words or phrases that the copiers thought would resonate better with the reader or be more clear in that specific language. If they couldn’t figure out a word they used one from their culture. It wasn’t the devil who changed it. It was copyists. The Catholic Church had many conferences to decide what books went the Bible. Then there’s the Geneva Bible, and a Luther Bible. Now, let’s go to English versions and Henry 8th’s The Great Bible of 1539. After that the King James Version of the Bible . We even have different versions today: Greek & Russian Orthodox, Ethiopian, Syriac, Arabic, Armenian, Catholic, Amplified Street Bible NASB, NIV.
But they always translated Jesus using Abba, The Father.
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Jeanette Harlow
I would love to see the Lord's prayer, closer to the original Aramaic version:
Here is the version of The Lord's Prayer translated into modern English by Jon Marc Hammer Below each line is the transliteration of the original prayer in phonetic Aramaic.
Father-Mother of the Cosmos, Shimmering Light of All. (Ah bwoon d'bwashmaya)
Focus your Light Within us, As we breathe Your Holy Breath. (Neeta kadasha schmach)
Enter the sanctuary of our hearts, Uniting within us the sacred rays Of Your Power and Beauty. (Tay tay malkootha)
Let Your Heart's desire Unite heaven and earth Through our sacred union. (Ne-whey t-savee-yanak eye kanna d'bwashmaya opfbaraha)
On earth, as it is in heaven. Help us fulfill what lies within The circle of our lives today. (How-lahn lachma d'soonkahnan yow-manna)
Forgive our secret fears As we freely choose To forgive the secret fears of others (Wash wo-klan how-bane eye-kanna dahp hahnan shwaken el-high-ya-bane)
Let us not enter forgetfulness, Tempted by false appearances (Oo-lah tah-lahn el-nees-yo-nah ella paewh-sahn min beesha)
For from Your astonishing Fire Comes the Eternal Song which sanctifies all, Renewed eternally In our lives, and Throughout all creation. (Metahl dih-lah-kee mal-kootha, oo-high-la, oo-teeshbohk-ta.)
We seal these words in our hearts, Committed in trust and faith. (La-alahm, ahl-meen. Ah-mayn)
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Rev. Kev
Jeanette:
I was curious about your post so decided to do a little digging. I have read and listened to many New Testament scholars and linguists who are considered experts in their respective fields and never once heard of this.
My search took me to a Snopes article on the matter. The prayer posted here seems to be from a paraphrase that appeared on Facebook and took off (as things on social media will tend to do).
To quote the context section of the Snopes article:
"A Facebook post paraphrases a translation of the Lord's Prayer by mystic, author, and scholar Neil Douglas-Klotz. As Douglas-Klotz wrote in 'Prayers of the Cosmos' (published in 1990), 'The transcription of the Aramaic words into English characters is not meant to be a formal, scholarly transliteration.' Moreover, he told us, the idea that there's one true and original (or correct) translation of the Lord's Prayer doesn't square with reality."
Basically, it's the work of a mystic trying to find new meaning in the prayer, which he admits is not a formal translation nor can be called true or original.
The article gives more details, including issued with claims about the source material.
Since we have no known original writings from any contemporary of the Biblical Jesus that tell us what he said, nor any originals of the gospels, any claim that something is the "original" of anything about Jesus automatically raises my curiosity. So nothing personal. It's just something I have an interest in and am always open to learning new things.
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Lionheart
Good points, Kev. I wonder what the Jesus fellow ever really said, assuming that is, if he ever really existed?
I guess we’ll never know for sure. 🤔
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Rev. Kev Since you are interested in learning more are you familiar or have you read the Didache? It was written by the Apostolic Fathers and unlike the Bible where there is a lot of controversy over translation and meaning, there is no controversy with the writings in the Didache.
If your goal is to learn more about the origin can creation of the Bible have you looked at the Oxyrhynchus Papyri? Just over 120 years ago the Oxyrhynchus Papyri were found. This is the trash site that was used as the Bible was being written. Over 100 crates where filled with papyri with drafts of the Bible. Looking at the Oxyrhynchus Papyri you can see different words and meaning can be seen in the drafts. One of the most famous and easiest to read is the number of the beast is associated with the Beast of Revelation in chapter 1. While in the Bible it's 666, in the Oxyrhynchus Papyri 666 is used as is 660. Scholars are trying to understand why the drafts use both 666 and 660. You can see the Oxyrhynchus Papyri online.
You can look at the Oxyrhynchus Papyri project online or here's a podcast about the discovery of the Oxyrhynchus Papyri. https://radiolab.org/episodes/297250-help-transcribe-ancient-papyri
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Jeanette Harlow Why?
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Rev. Dee
Douglas Robert Spindler. Why not?
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Jeanette Harlow Because most people today would not care. As such it's a pointless argument.
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Rev. Dee
Very cool.
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Robert Gagnon
Why prettier than the current version.
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John P Maher
BORING, BORING, BORING !!!
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Nicholas J Page
Church of England again in the headlines yet a lot of Minister's are still paedophiles and yet they still get away with it.In fact not only here in England but world wide and the elder minister's cover it up WHY.
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He Who Breathes
When you refer to God, you just say God. God, is God's pronoun.
e.g: Our God, who art in heaven....
Easy peazy.
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
Secular Humanist Pantheists (SHP’ers) are members of the only group that’s actually able to prove the existence of God — because to SHP’ers, God and nature are the same thing — and anyone who’s of normal intelligence (or more) can easily conclude that nature exists.
To some, nature is Mother Nature — therefore to them, nature is of the feminine gender.
The Holy Ghost (the father of Jesus) who impregnated the Virgin Mary — when she was still a pre-teen (11, possibly 12) is a male — and that’s that.
And if you don’t accept these biblical facts — you must be a MAGA’er.
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He Who Breathes
Totally irrelevant.
Even if you believe in the Jesus/Virgin Mary story, you put limitations on an omnipotent God if you think God has to be a male to impregnate a woman.
Your thinking is so limited, that you limit the abilities of God as well.
The you bring in Maga/Shmaga and SHP? to make it some kind of political statement -> that is called redirection...
Theology has nothing to do with politics (unless you are a left-wing/socialist/communist, in which case theology is pure bunkum, as this would most likely make you an atheist - and not really here for theological reasons, but for political reasons - in which case you are fighting a losing battle.)
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Ronaldo
Why would you assume that anyone who truly wants to make America great again would be anti-Bible or anti-Christian? I am not a Republican, nor a Democrat, I did not support Mr. Trump. I am Christian, believe in the message of the Bible, and would love to see America made great again. It's too bad that about half of Americans are against the MAGA concept because it was a vision held by a businessman rather than a career politician. Do these people, apparently including you, want to see this nation fail? It seems as if you want it to fail.
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Amit john
Christianity has been a patriarchal religion as God is not embodied gender should have relevance
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Rev. MichaelRS
Why? Because the FATHER that Jesus kept referring to was really non-binary
Still, it figures. While there's always room for individual redemption the CoE as an organization long ago left that path and has for some time been leading their congregants down another one.
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Rev. Kev
People are free to refer to God in any way they please, I suppose.
But this does create a theological issue for most churches. It basically says the Bible, and the very words of Jesus recorded in the gospels, are simply wrong. The Bible refers to God in the masculine tone. Jesus called God "Father" multiple times. Never once is recorded saying it's gender-optional. Jesus didn't know who God was? Then we have the Trinitarian doctrine that makes Jesus a part of the Godhead. Jesus was never recorded coming out as trans or gender-neutral. It also question the centuries of accepted wisdom and traditions of the umpteen Church Fathers. So this whole gender issue involve either ignoring or rewriting scripture to fit a modern, social paradigm. It's God being bent to suit modern sensibilities instead of people accepting what they call the Word of God as such. The various churches would have to admit there really is no Truth. Simply what society decides it likes at the moment. Subject to change at any time as society and social media dictates. Thus undermining the very foundations of such belief systems.
I guess my question is: what's wrong with having a masculine God that's been seen as such for millennia? What does it actually hurt? Is it really an issue of importance?
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Rev. Dee
If, as you say, it's not of importance, then it won't matter if it changes.
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Rev. Kev
I did not say it was not important. I ASKED if it was really important or wrong to keep it as it has historically been.
The entire second paragraph of my post was a brief outline as to why it can or may matter to a majority of Christians in orthodox or mainline churches.
IMO this issue seems to me to be much like someone whinging that covens of Wiccans are worshipping a goddess. That's not gender inclusive!!! The way I see it, that person can simply accept the way things are and not stomp on the rights and beliefs of those already worshipping, or they can leave and find some place more to their liking.
The Church of England has already had breakaway bishops starting new churches for dogmatic differences. I suggest those who want to change God and the scriptures can follow suit and just start a new church. Let the people stick with the traditional beliefs or go to the newer church.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Isn’t that what people have been doing all along... rewriting scripture to fit a modern, social paradigm.” Man wrote the bible, specifically, white men, not God.
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Rev. Kev
Nope.
First, it is true that Biblical texts have been reinterpreted over time to match the evolution of modern languages, but the source texts have remained unchanged. No one is scratching out the text on ancient parchments and doing a rewrite. Modern scholars have actually taken steps to ensure newer translations better reflect the source material than previous versions, when necessary.
Second, the people who wrote the books of the Bible were most likely not white Europeans. The Old Testament is entirely sourced in the East. The Christian religion started in Palestine. The first churches were in Palestine, Syria, Turkey, Greece, and surrounding areas. Due to the trade and travel routes of the Roman Empire, churches were inevitably founded in the West. If you look at the bishops involved in the early formation of the Biblical canon, they didn't primarily come from Western Europe, either.
Racist much? I ask since you specifically brought up race, and in what appears to be a disparaging manner.
One can argue that certain holidays or practises were altered over time to match cultural norms or to serve other purposes. But that didn't include actually rewriting any scriptures or altering any long-established dogma.
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Wallace da Silva Santiago
Deus nao e homem nem filho de homem nem tampouco de mulher
Nos nao devemos nominar a Deus de acordo a nossa inclinacao politica ou sexual
Deus esta acima de tudo isso
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David Arthur Lewis
God is not a person. And certainly not a person with Multiple Personality Disorder. She is a Spirit. He is a Spirit. They are a Spirit. And All is One.
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Colleen McAllister
This is really pathetic that some feel the need to change God to fit them. For thousands of years the Creator God has been spoken of as a man. Father. The historical Jesus was also male. Son. The Holy Spirit is not spoken of in gender specific terms. Why change now? There have always been other gods both male and female. Or non binary. If you can only worship a god that looks just like you then have at it. I prefer to Worship a real God. The only God. I was blessed with a loving father who treated me with respect and love. I have no problem with God fitting that image. If you do, then find another god but don't change mine.
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
Colleen; the Holy Spirit (AKA, the Holy Ghost) to those of us who were religiously-brainwashed, since birth, to understand that the Holy Ghost was the one who impregnated the 12-year-old Virgin Mary — we (according to the Thomas Jefferson’s Patriots Bible) know that all members of the Trinity, are males — as were all of the disciples of Jesus.
Hillary lost the White Christian women’s vote — because (according to the founder of Christianity (the BS’er, Saul, AKA, Paul) females (AKA, women) weren’t allowed to have any authority over any man — and, that’s that — and the reason MAGA’s (especially females with tattoos) wouldn’t vote for Hillary (or, any other female).
It’s just a matter of time before the GOP Constitutional literalists (who, as they believe that everything in the subversive unpatriotic King James Bible) take the US Constitution literally (as does a current majority on SCOTUS) take the vote away from females (and African Americans) so the USA can once again be run by White Christian males; (WCM’s) who know that a woman’s place is in the home — and certainly not anywhere where laws are made.
Saul (AKA, Paul) knew this, and so should my fellow ULC holders of a DD (in my case, two).
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Ronaldo
The Constitution, taken literally, gives women and minorities the right to vote. Anyone who takes the document seriously would not remove that right, because it exists as an Amendment to the Constitution. Since you are convinced that certain segments of our nation are planning on removing these rights, please provide any official evidence that such a path is being pursued. Besides, women could vote in this nation in some states and territories long before 1920.
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Susan Christine Giganti
Hillary lost the vote because she is a poor public speaker and was a lousy , divisive candidate.
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Mark S Laudenslayer
And protected/supported a womanizer and sex addict.
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William Sadler
Comment removed by user.
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William Sadler
Wrong. William Jefferson Clinton, like me, doesn't chase women. We get entangled with them. Some chase and ensnare us. From pre-Jennifer Flowers on, the girls were the pursuers. Monica Lewinsky has so admitted, and that she was encouraged by the traitorous and disgraced Linda Tripp.
Powerful people and celebrities attract all kinds of unwanted and unpopular attention George Washington slept around, including in one of my former neighbor's house near Mineral S rings, NY, USA. I unwittingly became a celebrity. when I took to the stage as a performer in the Chalk Circle, a biblically themed play produced at Bishop's University, Lenoxville, Quebec, Canada. It was 1966. I was five. The girls wouldn't leave me alone. :>)
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Donald G Magel
I feel so bad for little willy Sandler. No is a self protective word. However I believe that Mark is correct. Hillary was more interested in becoming president than in demanding her own self respect by confronting and leaving her serial skirt catcher. Everyone knew and she knew that she was being joked about but only her political career mattered it seemed. Self respect is a prime asset.
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Ryan S Romanek
When Jesus spoke to God he referred to him as ABBA meaning Father, everyone is aloud to believe what they may , but since I have a new covenant with the Father through his son Jesus, then I don't think I would need to explain myself or my beliefs. Good luck with your view and when you meet him you can tell him yourself how you feel about him. Either way he already knows you as he formed you in your mother's womb.
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David A Griffith
That is your opinion Ryan and please do not force it onto me, I am not forcing my beliefs onto you, but keeping them between myself and those I choose to SHARE with, not condemn for believing something different.
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Robert Gagnon
The king James version was written by smarter more educated and responsible people then those suggesting this change. This ridiculous concept of acceptance is at the expense of the majority. You want to piss off or lose 85% of serious worshipers to appease a few mentally feeble people who still won't convert to Christianity? Do you think they / them are gonna come running and fill up the churches to deliver up their tithe? It would be good for a laugh "why hast them forsaken they"?
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Rev. Dee
Just curious a to why the 'majority' would get so upset?
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Rev. Dee
A few that won't concert to Christianity? 🤣. You understand that 2/3 of the world's population AREN'T Christian, right?
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Robert Gagnon
Majority would get upset over the poor English these pronouns would produce. It would change the whole context of every portion of the bible, making it almost unreadable. Respect for tradition is not a sin, it is respect. Apparently you'd like to see the ratio drop from less than 1/3 to 1/20th.
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David A Griffith
Robert Gagnon there is much wrong with what you have written. How do you know the writers of the King (the K should be capitalized) James Version were smarter, more educated people than those suggesting the change. With what I have read in different versions of the Bible I find that a lot of what the writers wrote is wrong and were only writing what they chose to write about in order to achieve an end result that they approved of. Why is it wrong to be "woke" to the truth of the past? What are those that are against being "woke" scared of?
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Instead of ditching God's masculine pronouns why not just ditch God all together and the world would be a much better place.
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David Cox
Douglas Robert Spindler...you must have been hurt in life and you blame God. On every post I have seen you on you are hating on God. You are messing with something that you don't understand. But that's your choice. And it's got heavy consequences. God still loves you even though you dog him
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@David Cox You are right I was hurt by religion in my youth as I watched people in my religion, cheat, lie and steal and have complete dominance over women. But it was the lies the lies these devoutly religious forcing the young people to believe that made so many of us realize at 10-12 years old were just lies. And here we were in church being taught to tell the truth because God is watching when the adults aren't doing it. The church was a complete scam, and always has been.
As a teenager my life greatly improved once I stopped going to church and believing in God. I am so much happier without God and religion. And now that I am a minister and have studied religious history it's obvious what a scam religion is. Only way you can see what a scam religion is, is by leaving it and studying it.
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April Linda Wiles
I was hurt by religion and religious people also. For many years. I'm spiritual but not religious. I am very connected to a higher power. My faith in my gift was completely slaughtered by a Christian. There are many like us that see threw the religious lies and we are better off. He sees you.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@April Linda Wiles There are a lot of people right now on social media, YouTube, Facebook, TikTok who are sharing how religion has harmed them so you/we are not alone.
The stories people are telling a dreadful. We all know about Priests and ministers raping and molesting young women and young children. But now it's the Mormons/LDS church. Turns out not only have they been molesting and raping young women but they have hidden over $200 Billion dollars from their congregation for 30 years and have been fined by the US government.
That $200 Billion dollars was donated by LDS church members to feed the hungry, house the homeless and assist those in need. As we now know not one penny was given to those in need. And the real sad part is many LDS church members were giving so much money to the church they had to go on government assistance to feed their families.
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David Cox
Robert Spindler you don't know to much
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@David Cox Then why are people leaving religion?
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William Sadler
For psychedelics. We are going forward/back to the roots of all religions.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
And sex, drugs rock and roll.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@David Cox I just know the objective truth. Thank you for the complement.
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Rev. Dee
We will. Some are just slow on the uptake.
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Donald Richard Starns
Religion’s from the childhood of our branch of the apes. It’s time to put the toys back in the toybox.
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William Sadler
Be sure to separate the Barbies from the GI Joes. Where you put the Kens is up to you.
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David A Griffith
Even better Douglas Robert Spindler, those that believe different things stop telling me I'm wrong for believing something different from them. The religious are more interested in what others are thinking instead of policing their own.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@David A Griffith You are so right. But it gets even worse. The reason the religious are more interested in what others are thinking instead of policing their own is because they are being influenced by what they are told on Christian talk radio/TV stations and Christian social media sites. Take a look at how powerful Salem Media Group has become. Dig a bit deeper and who is behind Salem Media Group? A couple of Billionaires who are manipulating Christians to do their political work in the name of God and religion to make even more money.
They currently own and operate 117 stations across the US. Take a look at the history of Salem Media Group and who funds it and see if you agree with me.
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William Sadler
Has anyone here viewed Outfoxed: Rupert Murdoch's War on Journalism 2004 documentary? When the FCC was deregulated in 1996, the worst legacy of the Zippergate Presidency of WJ Clinton, Fox News was given free reign to wield unimagined influence on the willfully uninformed. Gone was the previously required allowance of the "other side" and a full scale propaganda machine was unloosed. The Trump debacle would be unimaginable without the Murdoch related machine of disinformation.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
You forgot to mention that Regan eliminated many of the FCC regulations. This has allowed two billionaires to have control of the radio waves. Take a look at Salem Media Group who now is control of over 3,000 radio stations or one in six radio stations in the United States. These two billionaire and heavenly influencing Christians for political agendas. Take a look at what Salem Media Groups is doing and the control they have.
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Angel
God is not corporeal and doesn'thave a gender..
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Mark Stricklett
Does Gender really matter in the work of God?
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Sure does, Gods have sex too. And they even have sex with their mothers, humans, animals, and each other.
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David Cox
Terrible
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David A Griffith
Beautifully written, Douglas.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@David A Griffith Thank you.
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Mary Haviland
This is another example of t church gone woke. I strad of reaching what the truth in the bible really is. It states in the bible that the part of God we interact with is masculine. The God. They is multifaceted, however the word God, yhwy, and even man are gender neutral. Just as is the word deer. You have the word deer and it mean male and female both. That is what we are dealing with. In the bible it makes it clear that God, yhwy wasn't us to call Him a Him. That is the disciplinary part of yhwy. Anything else will woodsify God. Make Him weak. That is what the devil want. Then people will turn away from a weak God and he could pretend that he is stronger. And besides, if you start to deviate from scriptures even a little bit, you lose the meaning of it and then soon other things will be deviated from. You know the scriptures say not to make Any changes to it. If they wanted to be depicted as female, He would have said so. He said to refer to Him as a Him.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Lol the scriptures were given to man by the devil. Your comment is proof of this. If the serpent can temp Eve with an apple, imagine what the devil can do with the meanderings of a man made book. After all. You’re not reading the Bible in its original language. It’s been changed a thousand times in the course of the last 2000 years. Get off that high horse before you fall off.
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Clay Serenbetz
Christianity has been a patriarchal religion. As God is not embodied, gender should not have relevance.
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Rev. Dr. G. Waldron
RIDICULOUS! STOP! The gender references to God and Christ in the spiritual state are simply to give a family identification between them and a way for us to relate. How many women have fathers? We should all be able to relate to the different references to God and Christ: Shepherd, Priest, etc. Notice the Holy Spirit only relates to us in a spiritual sense.
Atheist need not comment. I already know your general thoughts on this.
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Clay Serenbetz
Many homes are run by matriarchs. Fathers are often absent (e.g., Hershel Walker). The world is changing, Christianity ought to keep up if it intends to stay relevant.
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Joe Stutler
It's not about "need". 😁
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Emma Lynne McFadden
Why would God even need a gender?
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JaZe
IT is a bit harder to conceptualize. In Spiritualist Churches they say Father-Mother God.
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They even wanted to know this back in Biblical times. But when asked, God's response was "Tell them that I am that I am." If God didn't specify a gender, then so be it. God is God. Habitually we may say He, and it is virtue signaling to refer to God as She, especially in context with how hierarchy was determined in the Pentateuch, and how women were to be seen but not heard in some of the New Testament. But God also suggested He is a They since He was also concerned that "they may become like Us" if Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Life.
Likewise, if Jesus is personification of God, then He is definitely a He. There are arguments for both sides of the He/They, but at no time God is described in feminine form.
So it's not like there isn't Biblical references by which to determine precedence. God could be He or They, but not She, if going solely by the Bible itself.