Choosing between your heart and your faith can't be easy. But as one couple has discovered the hard way, faith doesn't always hold all the answers.
From the outside, Josh and Lolly Weed seemed to have it all figured out. Both are successful in their careers, active in their church, and have even raised four daughters.
The only problem? Josh is gay.
Josh Weed chose to suppress his sexual orientation and marry a woman because that's what his Mormon faith advised. His wife, Lolly, was fully aware that Josh was gay when the two were married. The couple believed that with God's help, they could work through any problems this small issue might pose.
For 15 years they did just that. But eventually, it reached a breaking point. The Weeds announced last month they are filing for divorce.
Going Public
The Weeds were launched onto the public stage back in 2012 when they published a viral blog post about their mixed-orientation relationship. They made the rounds in the media, proudly speaking about how happy their marriage was. In the process, they became inadvertent role models for many closeted Mormons seeking acceptance in their church.
While being homosexual is not a sin it itself, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints insists acting on the attraction is. For many gay Mormons, the choices are stark: leave the church, remain celibate, or enter into a heterosexual marriage. Josh and Lolly were a real-world example that option number three could work. That it could lead to happiness.
But that was a lie.
Unintended Consequences
Despite a close friendship and a semi-active sex life, Josh's internalized unhappiness and Lolly's need to be desired began to fester.
"Our marriage was absolutely beautiful," Josh wrote in an 11,000-word blog post explaining their decision to divorce. "Yet it contained an undercurrent of pain that we were not able to see clearly or acknowledge for many years, which made continuing in it impossible.
And, though the couple never advocated that other gay Mormons follow in their footsteps, they carried the guilt of that inevitability. They even dedicated an entire section of the blog post to profusely apologize to any LGBT people who they'd let down:
"We're sorry to any gay Mormon who received criticism, backlash, or hatred as a result of our story. Our coming out post gave a false hope: "See? I just knew there had to be a way for gay people to stay true to their faith by denying themselves and live a happy, healthy life!' We're sorry to perhaps send you back to the state of confusion you were in before you saw our story."
Josh Weed insists he never meant to mislead people, and has always been honest about his feelings. "The things I talked about in my coming-out post in 2012 weren't false. The joy I felt was real! The love I felt was real, but something in me wanted to die," he explains.
Confronting Hard Truths
Lolly broke the news to their children by comparing their father to a bat trying his best to fly like a bird because that's what the world expected him to do. Their eldest daughter reportedly replied: "Mommy, I don't want to hurt your feelings, but the spirit is telling me that this is the right thing to do. You guys aren't supposed to be married anymore."
Now, finally free to follow their own hearts, the couple have made it clear that whatever other Mormon mixed-orientation couples choose to do in the wake of their breakup, one universal truth cannot be ignored: "Platonic love is simply not enough, no matter how much we hoped it was. God designed us to need and want romantic attachment."
Despite this realization, Josh and Lolly say they have no plans to leave the Mormon church.
173 comments
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PKaz
Mr. Brown, Perhaps like your English to word you missed out on some of the hidden truths and some of the flat out truths. It is always a choice. Freewill. Nothing is black and white. Motive is the tool to which we find peace or prejudice. Maybe if people continued on the journey of self discovery and enlightenment we would be more understanding of the ways people are different and that chemistry and Dna play apart of who we are. Maybe nature and nurture influence the struggles we endure. Don’t judge, nor harm or mistreat anyone because you are not in agreement with anyone else’s lives.
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Dan Atatakai
Pkaz - Well stated. I do not understand the issue of "it is always a choice." Are you talking about gender or sexual attraction? Or are you talking about the choices we make regarding the directions we take in this wonderful game we call life?
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Hoggdogg
I cant belive what i am reading about homosexuality alot say my bible dont day anything about homeosexuality and get the up date bible and a role modle and just try it well the bible does say about homeosexuality may i day to read the bible from start and the end it a sin and the only church lets homeosexuality in the church is a church of Santa
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Dan Atatakai
Wesley
I have read AND studied the Bible from cover to cover numerous times. I have also studied the historicity and culture of the writings from the time it came about. This is how I know that, for example, Leviticus 18:22 was NOT about homosexuality but of Canaanite religious ceremonies where they used male temple prostitutes, which the Levites condemned.
The same thing applies to Saul/Paul's writings in Romans 1:26-30. It was about the Roman religious fertility ritual to the goddess Diana, praying and hoping for increased crops and more calvings. This ceremony would end up in a massive orgy. It had nothing to do with two people of the same gender who loved each other.
1Cor 6:9-10 from KJV1611 never even mentions the term "homosexual". That was added fairly recently, literature-wise.
Others will also say that the Genesis story of Sodom and Gomorrah was about homosexuality. It wasn't. It was about inhospitality and rape. According to the story, God had supposedly warned the people to straighten up. They didn't. If it happened to be about homosexuality, why would Lot offer his two daughters to the rapists?
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John Davis
Leviticus 18:22 seems to pretty clearly advise against homosexuality, "Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable." In any case, whether it's in the Bible or not or whether the Bible says homosexuality is detestable or not, how about applying some logic to the situation?
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Dan Atatakai
John - Using modern definitions for ancient writings does not always fare well. First, the KJV1611 does not say "have sexual relations". If you take the time and learn the historicity, you will see what I had posted about male temple prostitutes in Canaanite religious ceremonies to be appropriate, and NOT about two people who love each other who just happen to be of the same gender.
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John Davis
What ??????
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Dan Atatakai
John - "What ?????" regarding which post(s)?
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John Davis
"Wesley W Brown April 18, 2018 at 4:57 am I cant belive what i am reading about homosexuality alot say my bible dont day anything about homeosexuality and get the up date bible and a role modle and just try it well the bible does say about homeosexuality may i day to read the bible from start and the end it a sin and the only church lets homeosexuality in the church is a church of Santa"
I couldn't understand what Wesley is saying.
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Dan Atatakai
John - it IS a bit of a quandry to decode what he is saying. Maybe he could be dyslexic, or maybe English is a fourth or fifth language for the guy.
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PKaz
Revisions are a way to life. Apparently we needed help and understanding. I know a loving God. While a child of man is growing up and parables are used to light the path. Everyone learns at different speeds or by different methods. I should think that one book would have done it. Even the ones that resemble the others as in the gospels. There were many books. The ones chosen for what we call the Bible are just that. Of many. The inspired word is Gods way of talking through people. If it did not need some type of revision, additional understanding or allowances one inspired writer would have done it. There are many. Confirmation. On the first day when God created... he saw it was good. That says he was open for? I hear words like freewill and guidance by the Holy Spirit. If God didn’t want to give us choices he wouldn’t have. God wants us to come to him by way of Love and commitment. Not everyone starts this life with privilege, parents or even given the manual. “Bible” we are in search of truth and in absolution find love. The one thing you can’t demand from anyone. The one thing that freewill can do is give or withhold. Choice. I don’t think we are given choices to be smited and I know he wants us to love him. He gave Jesus a choice. He could have said save me and God would have snapped that cross down and saved his life. He was exhausted and giving up his life here gained him eternity.. now. Gained us if we followed. He then gave an additional rider and Jesus left us the Holy Spirit. God is not as stringent as some people think. If he wanted to rule by force he could have enslaved us all. Perhaps he has? I’m just saying everything is revised. New rules implemented or changed. Love rules them all. If you love the 10 commandments wouldn’t need to be on paper. They are written in your heart.
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PKaz
I couldn’t have put it any simpler and shouldn’t have to. If things were so complete and went exactly as the Old Testament put it. Jesus wouldn’t have been sent and the revision wouldn’t have been done. Change means growth. Love and acceptance in the name of Love is what we call. Element of change. Evolution and growth. Prayer brings change. People make changes!!
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John Owens
There was no revision in the scripture, except for the ADDITION of one new commandment. That did not annul the others.
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John Davis
Why on Earth does it matter what is written in the Bible? The Bible is a book. It is written by humans. Some of them were pretty bright, others not. The book has been translated, retranslated, edited, bits cut out, bits added, interpreted, etc., to a point where it bears little or no resemblance to the original - as far as we know what the original was. The bottom line is that it really doesn't matter what is written in that book. If it makes sense and if what's written there helps us to improve our lives, then follow it. If it doesn't make sense and doesn't help, just ignore it. Some of the data in the book are timeless and just as true now as they were 2,000 years ago. A lot of it is simply outdated and irrelevant.
The whole point is to have a happy life and to spread that happiness and love to the people around us. Not to blindly obey a 2,000 year old book.
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Dan Atatakai
John - quite well stated! Thank you!
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John Davis
Thank you for your kind words.
In reading the Bible, I'm pretty sure that the word "God" has different meanings depending on the context. There is the meaning of God as an all powerful, all knowing, spiritual being. But I think there is another meaning, that of God as a state, a state of advanced enlightenment. If you think of this while reading some passages, it makes a lot of sense;
"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." (Whoever does not love, does not know advanced spiritual enlightenment, because advanced spiritual enlightenment is love.)
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them."
The Bible is referred to as "the Word of God." If you think of this as meaning "the writings of people who were in a state of advanced enlightenment," it makes sense. And so does referring to Christ as "the Son of God," as "a person who was born of advanced spiritual enlightenment."
This aligns well with the State of Clear in Scientology. When a person achieves this state, he no longer has attention on himself and is very aware of people around him and their feelings. The feeling of love for all people is typically expressed by Clears.
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Carl Elfstrom
Together we live, alone we perish. With a little help from our friends I think we'll make it.
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Carl Elfstrom
Jesus Christ and his twelve merry men were bi-sexuals, and St. Paul was a very jealous closet queen who couldn't get enough dick So he condemned all those who could.
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John Davis
Frequently I see the line, "You cannot deny what you are," used to "explain" homosexual desires. I find it strange on a site like this that people would think this way. Surely what YOU are is a spiritual being. Isn't that what's in God's image? Does anyone really believe that God has a body and that he pegs out in three score year and ten?
What YOU are and what God IS is not a body or bits of the body or ways to reach an orgasm.
YOU are YOU. YOU exist independently of the lump of meat you carry around. The "Gay Mormon" put his sensual gratification before his family. It was more important for him to have orgasms with men than to create his family.
But then, he "cannot deny what he is," you say.
But he IS denying what he is.
He is a spirit, NOT a sexual organ.
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Minister Rob
Not everybody is a Christian, or Abrahamic, or even theist. Some are deist, or agnostic, animist, polytheist, or anti-theist.
What is "sin" to a Taoist? A Buddhist? A deist? An animist? A Zoorastrian? An Odinist? A Wiccan?
Maybe it was more important to them that they didn't feel like they were living a lie in front of their kids.
How did your alleged Jesus allegedly treat sinners like prostitutes?
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Debra
God is love. Love covers a multitude of sin. For God so loved the WORLD... He will reconcile all things, make all things new. We see, in all our brilliant "biblical" righteousness, dimly. We say that we'll be surprised at who we see in heaven, yet are the first to judge, and then claim its our right to judge our fellow believers. If we walk in love there is no law against us. We are all broken and imperfect beyond our own fixing and faith. We are called to live by love not the knowledge of good and evil. I will live by the law of conscience. If I know to do good and don't do it, for me that is sin, and thankfully only god knows the inner workings of my heart. My child is gay. She loves God and was terrified of her feelings. I had to face god and ask him how great was his love and then I began to grasp (barely)the height, depth, and width of his love. ? ??
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Carl Elfstrom
I think the benefits and drawbacks of being gay have to do with what side of the tracks you're on. But you can't spend your whole life in a gay bar, or hiding behind your straight , Mormon wife. You must come out to play, sometime. However, when you do, be sure to do a good job of choosing your playgrounds and playmates, for this is still a dog eat dog world, and we aren't accepted by everyone. And whether it's right or wrong doesn't matter.As long as you do that you'll experience more benefits than drawbacks. Nobody can please anyone all the time, or some people any of the time, but by being authentic we can at least please ourselves, and like minded people.Never forget what Freddy Mercury said about it "We are the champions of the world."
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rabbi jim
Greetings all! I repeat what I've said many times, people have to be who and what they are inside. You cannot hide or deny who you are. You must confront the truth and except it proudly. Be proud of who and what you are. Gay is a CHOICE of lifestyle. Shalom and have a wonderful day!
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Dan Atatakai
Jim - if homosexuality is a choice, then so is heterosexuality. When did you decide to be heterosexual?
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John Owens
It is not ONE choice. It is thousands of choices. It is what we choose to think about, or allow ourselves to think about every day. Those are affected by our surroundings and what we are taught and what we learn growing up.
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Rev. John D. Partin
To whom it may concern, there aren't any number of choices, even up into the millions or billions, that can transform a straight person into a gay person. Environment can only bring out of a person what was already there in the first place, but can't put anything there that wasn't already there. If it could put gayness into somebody who was already gay naturally, anyway, then "gay producing" environments and choices would always turn those subjected to them gay, but they don't, and "straight producing" environments don't always make people turn out straight, either. So much for "environment and choices being the cause of homosexuality". That is just more of the right-wing (actually neo-Nazi) scare tactic that "gay people are going to turn your children gay"!! Impossible and ridiculous!! This person refuses to accept that there could, obviously, be a spiritual and transcendent reason for homosexuality (and not its being any kind of "sin"), such as reincarnation. Just because a gay gene or scientific reason for it hasn't been found, he totally rejects the idea of its being natural and doesn't even consider a spiritual and transcendant cause for it, which can't be put under a microscope or scientifically verified, though he goes on and on about "how spiritual he is" and "God and religion" the rest of the time!! That is how blind and narrow "minded" he is about gay people!!!
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Rev. John D. Partin
Correction: if it could put gayness into somebody who wasn't already gay naturally, anyway...
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John Davis
Of course heterosexuality is a choice. So is homosexuality. So is everything we do in life. We create our own lives. Anyone who thinks some other agency is responsible for his life is dumping responsibility.
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Jim Jones
> "Gay is a CHOICE of lifestyle."
Please choose it then and let us know how you enjoy it. List the benefits and the drawbacks.
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Carl Elfstrom
Homosexuality is not a choice, but living the gay lifestyle is, as apposed to being in the closet. I get the impression that's probably what rabbi Jim meant. And as rabbi Jim has previously stated, he has nothing to choose, and neither do I,Babe.
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Dan Atatakai
There are a few points about what you posted, Patricia, of which I am in complete disagreement. Please allow me to address them.
a. There are NO churches, let alone most individuals of the world, who teach "anything goes and everything is acceptable." Even atheists have a moral compass. If you disagree, please tell me what churches teach hedonism.
b. What sexual sin is discussed regarding Lot with the Sodom & Gomorrah fable? It had nothing to do with inhospitality and rape. I do hope that you do not claim rape is a form of sexuality! While you are on the subject, please define "sexual sin".
c. Regarding "self-love", are you not aware that even your rabbi, Jesus, taught to love your neighbor AS YOURSELF?
d. About children respecting their parents, even Socrates wrote about how children did not respect parents and other forms of authority. It is nothing new but a process that the human animal goes through, stretching one's boundaries in an exploration of breaking away from the parents and moving on in life - like a butterfly emerging from the chrysalis.
e. Do you really believe that standing by yourself will avoid you being "struck by lightning"? You do know that your God of Abraham is NOT Thor, right? Are you going to tell me that your deity uses lightning to destroy things or people who disagree with her/him/itself? What about, then, all of the churches which are struck by lightning annually? Is that why you believe they install lightning rods on churches, because you believe they think they are not "doing the will of God"?
f. You do know that the Adam & Eve story in Genesis in your bible is an allegory, right? The issue of "with EVERY species, there is male and female created to procreate and populate." Really? Please explain, then, asexual reproduction. If you are not aware, let me explain what that happens to be.
"Asexual reproduction is a form of reproduction which does not involve meiosis, ploidy reduction, or fertilization. A more stringent definition is agamogenesis which refers to reproduction without the fusion of gametes. Asexual reproduction is the primary form of reproduction for single-celled organisms such as archaea, bacteria, and protists. Many plants and fungi reproduce mostly asexually as well. While all prokaryotes reproduce asexually (without the formation and fusion of gametes), mechanism for lateral gene transfer such as conjugation, transformation and transduction are sometimes likened to sexual reproduction "
Many species of annelids (worms) reproduce via an asexual process called fragmentation. Included in this category of worms are California blackworms, or mudworms. These worms are hermaphroditic -- they have both male and female reproductive parts -- and can reproduce sexually. However, many times these worms will reproduce using fragmentation. In this case, blackworms can break apart and each consequential fragment can become a new worm.
Some other examples of asexual beings include amobae, virus, germs, bacteria, sea cucumbers. anenome and even copperhead snakes to name just a few.
Regarding homosexuality, you do know, I hope, that homosexuality is throughout the earth. On the earth, which you claim was made by your own God of Abraham, there are more than 1500 different forms of mammals with homosexual populations, not just the human mammal. There are even homosexual plants. Not all plants have male and female populations like the date and avocado.
In essence, are you saying that the only purpose for those being with both male and female are there to procreate to fill the earth? Nothing about love comes to mind?
I look forward to your feedback on what I have shared with you.
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Carl Elfstrom
I think all forms of life contain both masculine and feminine characteristics. If we were made in God's image, and God could never condemn any part of Himself, God ( also known as Good Orderly Direction) must also be bisexual. Oh my, I really said a mouthful that time !
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Patricia
The falling away of the Church appears to be complete with so many churches teaching that anything goes and everything is acceptable, which is a lie. God is NOT a wimp! God IS love but that doesn’t mean that He ignores what is going on in this world. And His silence right now does not mean everything that is going on in the world is okay with Him. There is no one that is without sin, and sin is sin but that doesn’t mean that any one sin is okay. But when our hearts are truly full with the Holy Spirit then we become changed creatures. But that is NOT how this discussion is going. This discussion is about being worldly and accepting of that worldliness and that is NOT what the Bible says. It does warn that in end days it would be like in the times of Noah and Lot; that sexual sin would be acceptable, that people would be lovers of themselves (take a selfie lately?), that they wouldn’t respect their parents (and what kid does in our time and place in history?). These things are not random, they are prophecy fulfilled and most of you are part of that fulfillment. You are accepting of the world but hateful to Christians (look at your responses to one another, they aren’t out of love for one another, not even close). You are trying to use God’s Word against God. God doesn’t really seem to matter to any of you; you just want to be worldly and pretend that it is all about God when it is NOT about God at all. You WANT deviant things to be on everyone’s acceptance list INCLUDING God’s. And the things that you’re saying about what the Bible says makes me grateful I’m not standing next to any of you because lightening could strike at any moment. Honestly, there are so many untruths written here that I don’t even know where to begin. Just as mankind has always done, you do here. You want what you want and it doesn’t matter to you what God really wants. And this is my last statement: God created Adam and Eve; husband and wife. From the very beginning of mankind God set the standard. He didn’t create two men to begin humanity with, or two women, He created a husband and a wife. And then He told them to populate the earth. In ALL creation, with EVERY species, there is male and female created to procreate and populate. The very design of the human body, male and female, is designed as the equal and opposite of two parts to make a whole. That is why when a man and woman marry they become one. They are two parts that make a whole in the eyes of God; His creation, not what the world now believes it to be.
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John Maher
PATRICIA NOBODY SAID ANYTHING ABOUT PROCREATION, THE GAY THING is ONLY SEXUAL, I GUESS YOU ARE NOT FAMILIAR with ANIMALS that are VERY GAY or BISEXUAL, THE BIBLE BABBLE has NOT to DO WITH ANYTHING PERTAINING to REAL LIFE, ONLY FAKE LIFE, FAKE IDEAS, FAKE PROPHECIES, in other WORDS B S...........SAME as the LIES of YOUR PUTO POTUS DOTAR ORANGUtRUMP, WHERE in HELL is JOHN BOOGER BUTTERFLY OWINS HE can SET EVERYONE STRAIGHT BEING the BIG BIBLE BABBLER CLOSET EXPERT on GAYISM, HI JOHNNY *
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Carl Elfstrom
"Amen, Brother,Blessed Be!, Shalom!, and May the Force be with you!" I agree with that comment completely, John Maher.
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Carl Elfstrom
Patricia, what about 69 ? That's another good way for two people to bond and make a whole, like two in one. And it tastes good too.
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The Doctor
Patty dear sweet child you seem to not grasp that not everyone here is christian nor believes the biblical narratives.
We may well even have ordained ministers of the church of satan or luciferians here. And that is perfectly acceptable and are valid choices for spirituality.
And anyone that understands even the basics of science understand why the myth of adam and eve is just that. Inbreeding does not create a long term viable gene pool. Period.
And you seem ignorant that Eve wasnt the first woman. Lilith was. And she had the will to defy Adam and the power to challenge and defy God with a single Word. Then she left the garden seeing that it was a tiny part of a wide world.
You sound like many a uneducated and close minded radical christian zealot using some woefully inaccurate revised version of the bible and seem confused that old testament aspects where condemned by Jesus the man.
Yet the fact you espouse creationism tells me more then enough. Are you a flat earther too? Or maybe a hollow Earther? Or maybe you think evolution has to do with planets too like christian science which makes me feel dirty just putting those two words together as there is nothing scientific about that faction.
And what about when a man and woman divorce? because news flash marriage isnt some unbreakable covenant nor does it turn a couple into Siamese twins.
Ill Part with my blessing. May the Darkness of the void consume your soul and keep it forever safe in Oblivion. Have a lovely eternity!
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DJ
It is not a sin to be who you are. Everyone on this planet is a precious child of God. The labels are irrelevant & everyone is equal. It's time we all realize that love is all there is. Judgment separates us from our higher selves.
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Singularity Nexus (@SingularNexus)
What's best for humanity? Marriage is a man-made concept and it was designed to produce manual laborers. Humanity will perish if it continues down this path of frigidity and shallow man-made morality.
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Marilyn E Gibson
God as I experience God has no capacity for hate only love for his children. I was raised very conservative Christian , I have deep roots in the faith, I don't practice or believe in any human religion . I am always led by the voice of God to do and act in a loving & kind way, not what mankind says the rules are. It astonishes me that people are still spewing vile hateful things about what God said or or will do to any one who breaks those perceived rules. By the way the Bible was written by human beings and if there was only 1 absolute interpretation there wouldn't be so many versions. Remember, the Bible was written by human beings inspired by spirit to be interpreted by spirit.
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John Latham
One of the issues here is putting the label of Mormon on oneself instead of Christian. Faith through Christ finds a way. Drawing attention to oneself and being published publicly saying faith just didn't quite cut it in this instance is really an absence of Faith of Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Homosexuality is sin. So they bring 4 children into the world and brainwash them under the guise of Christianity? How thoughtless.
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Carl Elfstrom
Your Daddy is gay, and your Mama is a lesbo. My God doesnt like your god, and said your god is gay. He also said your god is a good lay.
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Carl Elfstrom
And you better do everything your wife tells you to do, labor included, or she'll tie you to a bed and discipline you! It sounds like your humanity has already perished, you deliverance reject.
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Cris gold
First off, being gay, is against, God's laws! Period! But, gay people exist, though after you see the evil, of their sexual nature and lying to spouses about their shameless and shameful behavior, endangering the lives of everyone with VD, AIDS, HIV, or worse, living a lie, just to use the female gender as an expendable source to have, Children! What? In the world we have to take better care of females so they don't or your family give birth to abomination, or abominations! Think about it! What if it was you being lied to this way! Or your children were the victims of this! Abomination! It is what it is!
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Dan Atatakai
Cris - why would you say that being gay is against God's laws? Which deity? The Bible says nothing about homosexuality, by the way, except in modern versions of the Bible. KJV does not even mention it.
I know so many people will mention Leviticus 18:22 (which is about male temple prostitutes being used in Canaanite religious ceremonies, not about homosexuality), Romans 1:26-27 (having to do with Paul's observations of a Roman fertility ritual to the goddess Diana for increased fertility for their cattle and better crops which would end in an orgy and NOT about homosexuality), and even the story in Genesis about Sodom & Gomorrah (which was about inhospitality and rape, NOT homosexuality.) Even 1Cor 6:9-10 never mentioned the term "homosexual" or anything related to it in KJV1611. So why do you think it is against God's laws, especially since, according to your beliefs that the entire universe, let alone the earth, was created by the God of Abraham, and the earth has more than 1500 different mammalian species with homosexual populations, not just the human animal.
How is a homosexual person lying to their heterosexual spouse if they do not have any sexually transmitted diseases? Do you think that homosexuals are the ones who spread STD's? If so, that is inaccurate.
By the way, where do you think homosexual people come from? They come from heterosexual parents, not homosexual parents. Please explain how you think that homosexuals are abominations when your sins are every bit as "bad/evil" as anyone who is homosexual.
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PKaz
Back in the days of Christ Unick’s were and it wasn’t for reproduction. I’m sad to say that many a priest have taken advantage of children. Pretending to love and care for them. If someone isn’t able to have children or a paraplegic, no legs or no working womb or low or no sperm production. God does not judge or wish anyone to be alone. It’s ok for childless heterosexuals to adopt. Why is it not for same sex couples to provide a loving home. To love and raise in unity to love God. I think your confusing heterosexuals with pediphiles. No connection! So many children in the system. moms and dads down on their luck, homeless and have turned to alcohol or worse. Just because same sex couples are not heterosexual they want and choose the children. Loving children is better than abusing them. Neglect is a sin. Giving is not.
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Carl Elfstrom
I've never liked kids and never wanted any. I would just like you to tell me where all those gay priests were at during those years when I was an altar boy. I really could have used some head, but they never mentioned it.
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Carl Elfstrom
And hosexuals don't do anything different with men than heterosexual men do with the women who were blessed with having large clits. Some of them are like super dongs! And some of those girls act like butch, dominant studs too. And you better obey them, even if it means you' re shaking your hips when it's over. Talk about turning a man gay. If anything could it would be that.
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Carl Elfstrom
We all must ignore Cris Gold. He's a total retard, and obviously in denial of his latent homosexual tendenciès. I bet he even has cock breath.
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MD
If God made Gay people in the begining then you and I wouldn't be here today cause gay people can't produce period...
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Dan Atatakai
MD - Who, then, produced homosexual people? Heterosexuals.
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PKaz
God created Adam and Eve out of clay, one made the other. If your going to play that card then let’s not bring up incest. We are all apart of each other. Everyone and everything has a purpose. All were made in his image and for his pleasure. Love. He could have continued clay work. Maybe he did. Love begats love and hate begats hate. Dying and rebirth is with new eyes. Just love, patience and understanding, forgiveness and Truth.
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The Doctor
Actually god made adam and lilith from clay. when lilith refused to submit to adam god commanded her to, instead she invoked a word of power that god was unable or unwilling to challenge and instead cast her from eden. So then god made eve from adam so that she must always submit.
That is the actual old testament narrative. Frankly I am more fond of lilith then god, adam or eve in that narrative.
If you beleive in that sort of thing. I myself do not subscribe to any of the hebrew,christian,muslim monotheistic faiths.
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PKaz
- I was not trying to confuse anyone. That is why isaid one made the other after God made Adam. I am very aware of Lillith. I believe it is to make Eve aware that if it wasn’t for Adam...
- I don’t believe in submission however gratitude perhaps. I do believe in working towards common goals.
- Freewill right?!
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Mitch
It's abundantly clear, or should be, that man created his gods in man's own image and his religions in the same egocentric way.
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MD
God said to Adam and Eve " multifly and fill the Earth gay people can't reproductive.
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Dan Atatakai
MD - The difficulty is that the earth is more than filled with people.
People with low sperm count, senior citizens or with a tilted uterus can also not reproduce. Given more than 7.5 billion people on the earth, is that really a problem?
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JohnnyBass
Yes Gay people could be natures way of controlling the population so would if gay people are actually saving the world & they're being hated at the same time. ... Humans.
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Rev. Larry Mager
Me, I've been married twice and have been happily married to the same woman for over 21 years now. There are gay couples that now have been married for 50 years to the same partner. What it comes down to IMHO, is judge people by WHO they are and NOT their sexual orientation!!!!! Peace be upon You all, Rev. Lars
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Dan Atatakai
Larry - great cogent posting! Thank you.
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Don
I’m not a Mormon, but know all too well how loving a lie can not only affect you, but those around you. I have always felt that I ruined the life of my wife, robbed her of something, just so I could please everyone around me and be their ‘normal’. I am here to tell you that life will go on, the happiness each will find will far outweigh the perceived wrongs. Kids adapt, mine did, and I think their understanding of the whole of humanity is much more clearer than most. Good luck in your new lives. It certainly gets better!
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Gayle Morris
We are both physical and spiritual beings. As Divine sparks of God, our physical bodies are irrelevant. Love is pure Energy and that Energy is exchanged with another’s Energy until it resonates beautifully. It moves through our physical bodies and returns to the God-head. “Know ye not that ye are Gods”?
Our whole reason for being is to experience joy and to create.
Rev. Gayle Morris
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Bill Fox
Ice cream is not a substitute for smoking tobacco. Prescription drugs are not a substitute for excessive alcohol consumption. Heterosexual sex is not a substitute for homosexual sex. The man made a commitment to not have homosexual conduct. In my opinion, he never should have involved another person, much less created a family. Where prayer may be sufficient to keep him from committing homosexual acts, it may not be enough to change his sexual preference. The former smoker should stay away from tobacco shops and the alcoholic should stay away from bars. It is a tough choice between sexual preference and the Kingdom of God.
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Jarod Miller
Interesting science experiment. Once again science is triumphant over God and religion.
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Leonardo
When anyone, man/woman, is certain of knowing God's will, and is resolved to do it regardless of the cost, he/she is the most dangerous person in the world. Since there is no verification for the what is asserted as revelation, biblical truth, existence of a transcendent being, an afterlife, we are left to our own resources to use our reason, free will, and energies to perfect the world, human nature, civil law, and each other. Our concern, then, should be to eliminate bigotry, hatred, violence, and poverty. The discussion of anything else beyond this world is speculation and useless.
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Jen Harder
Homosexuality is in over 450 species on this planet most of whom know nothing of God or religion. Homophobia is only found in 1 species! That should tell you something. It’s all about unconditional love and accepting another being for who they are and not judging them on something so trivial. Spread love and understanding not hatred and fear!
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Carl Elfstrom
Are you saying we should do it with 450 species? That sounds like beastiality, and I'll have no part of that!
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Jen Harder
Homosexuality is in over 450 species on this planet most of whom know nothing of God or religion. It's all about unconditional love and accepting another being for who they are and not judging them on something so trivial. Spread love and understanding not hatred and fear!
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DeLeon
I lived a lie for 40 years trying to please those who dictated how it should go. I married twice during this struggle and fathered two children. But, I came to the point that a serious decision had to be made. Live my authenticity of end my life. I chose to live my truth and deny others the right to dictate my life. It was the most difficult decision I ever made and it took me 15 years to hold my head up and embrace the reality that I am a gay man. I don't say this asking for your pity but only to speak truth to power. By the way, I was a fundamentalist minister and my entire world had been built around the church. I found a religious community the EMBRACES all of who I am. I'm happier that ever. I applaud this couple for taking this step a wish them the best in the future. I can attest to the difficulty ahead but you will find the courage and resolve.
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Daniel
Thank you!
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Rev Dr Mitchell D Maybury
I think and i sincerely believe the purpose Christ came to us was for the payment of the sin debt we all carried since adam and eve. Gods only desire for us was to seek His glory as we bring Him the Glory he deserves. Again we all fall short and miss the point. We are not per se to live for ourselves, but to live gor God and alk the while Bring Glory to His Holy name. Our lusts, desires, rebellion are all sins of the flesh when acted on.
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Carl Elfstrom
Don't knock sin until you've tried it whole heartedly. It's really a lot of fun.
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Jim Jones
That didn't help.
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Michael LaRocca
For those who are condemning gay people by using Bible quotes to justify the internal anger that you feel, I would ask you to watch the video link I am posting. I am gay and studied under one of the top Biblical Scholars in the United States for four years. When one studies the historical aspects of the Bible and why certain passages were written at that time you suddenly say to yourself, "Wow. Now I get it." Please remember the slogan of our Universal Life Church, "We are all children of the same Universe." Now, please watch the video. It is from a TV Show, but it says so much... Love & Blessings to all... Michael. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSXJzybEeJM
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DeLeon
WOW!! Enough said.
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Dan Atatakai
There was also an extra episode of The West Wing called "Isaac and Ishmael" - another great episode explaining theological issues. In this case, it explained about the mistaken concepts so many Americans have about Islam and Muslims. I recommend it highly.
ideo.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=AwrEwNbze4taqooAh0wPxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTEyNGozbWZ1BGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDQjQxMjNfMQRzZWMDc2M-?p=west+wing+isaac+and+ishmael&fr=yhs-domaindev-domaindev_recipefresh&hspart=domaindev&hsimp=yhs-domaindev_recipefresh#id=2&vid=988de53aba40a7d0d6e2d67207583cbe&action=view
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Minister J.
I am A Gay make it is said we are all made in God's image I never made a choice to be gay I was born gay having a XXY chromosone in my body that has made me gay... It is now after many tests on gay people and finding this in 30 % of gay males that now we can say we are born gay. And not by choice. I go to church every Sunday and my Pastor says as long as I have Jesus and God in my Heart there will be a place for me in Heaven...I never asked to be gay , but GOD made me this way in his own image ... And if you are stuck thinking god is a male well you may be wrong God is intersexual both Male and Female God created all men and women in his image ..... Pretty interesting fact I'd say.
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Jen Harder
<3
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Lee
God created male and female in his image. God did not create woman in his image. God created woman in the image of man because both male and female needed one in order to live in a physical world as a human being. If God had wanted man to live in spiritual form as God is, then there would be no need for woman. You may recall that God called man Adam and Adam called woman Eve. Get your facts together and you will see that male and female are equal. Suggest that you review the Genesis.
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The Doctor
Actually in the old testament before god made eve he made Lillith not from adam but from the earth equal to adam. She refused to serve adam and then used a word of power to challenge god, for that she was banished from the garden and is often called the mother of demons.
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John Owens
Geez, you're full of heathen crap.
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Carl Elfstrom
And then there was Steve. He came before Eve, so I've heard. Eve was really made to be with Gloria.[ That's who they're talking about when they say "Gloria in excelsis deo."] Gloria stole Steve from Adam, and in revenge Adam took Eve.
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Carl Elfstrom
I guess y'all know they were all bi-sexuals back then. That's the only true way there is to be. They didn't have a word for it back then. It was just a very common practice and they assumed everyone engaged in it. They never mentioned it in the bible. They never talked about breathing either, or even picking your nose and eating your boogers.
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John Davis
Let's make a parallel here. Let's take a human being and an ant. The human being has much more ability than the ant ever will. The human being has science and technology far above what an ant could even dream of. There is a tremendous gap between the ant and the human being.
Well, perhaps there is a similar gap between God and humans. God, if we believe what we are told, has abilities way, way above anything a human being can even conceive of. But the ant is no more in communication with human beings than human beings are with God. If you think, in prayer that you are communicating with God, let's be honest now, if you really believe that, you're kidding yourself. You perhaps cite the one or two times it "worked" with the hundreds of thousands of times it didn't.
How many people pray for peace, but wars still continue? How many people pray for a cure, but their loved ones die? How many pray to be ungay and, like Mr Weed above, are still fixated on men's bodies?
And, if there is a God, do you honestly think he (she? it? they?) care about what gets humans' rocks off?
I'm not saying that there is nothing that can be done for people like Mr Weed, but prayer obviously isn't the solution.
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Ray
My church accepts that family must come before religion
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John Davis
The early Christians and many who came after put religion before family or self, come to that.
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Robert
well let us all just hope that HIV will visit him very soon and perhaps then he can say" gee maybe i should not have taken it in the butt!"
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John Maher
EVERYONE that DID and WILL COMMENT W T F up, NOTHING NEW EXCEPT the ADVERTISING of SAME and NO ONE SHOULD WISH H I V on ANY ONE, SHAME on YOU Rev. ROB
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Dan Atatakai
Rob - you call yourself a reverend? I doubt that most seriously. You are not only wrong about this particular person but about homosexuality in general.
First, there are many homosexual people who do not like anal sex, much as there are people in the heterosexual world who do like it.
Second, regarding HIV/AIDS, according to the World Health Organization (W.H.O.), there are far more heterosexual people with HIV/AIDS than homosexual.
Now, how about growing up and having some empathy by just using facts for a change, instead of childish bigotries.
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Loren
Isn't the bible the definition of "childish bigotry "?
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Dan Atatakai
Loren - I admit it is a book of violence, including genocide, murder of individuals or only societies, rape, and other horrific and what I would call unpardonable "punishments" - the old "Infinite punishment for a finite crime" adage is just one of many. Yes, bigotry is indeed one of many parts of its "story line."
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John Davis
I wonder why you ignore the other side of the Bible. It contains much beauty as well.
Personally, I think the book suffers from "too many cooks." Far too many people have translated, mistranslated, added, altered, cut bits out and generally made a dog's breakfast of it.
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The Doctor
You sir are disgusting, and most certainly a disgrace to the Ministry of the ULC where being open mined and accepting of the varied views of all children of the universe is the noble ideal we all are to represent.
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Stephen Foster
"Rev" Bob,
Do you recall the scripture from Matthew 7:1-3 "Judge not lest ye be judged". Your response is so far off from the teachings of Jesus from Matthew 22: 37-40 which includes "Love your neighbor as yourself". Does your condemnation of Josh wishing HIV upon him reflect the Greatest Commandment? Not being judgmental, but I would think in your case I would be on my knees asking God to forgive me for thinking such ill thoughts against another of his children.
THINK and Pray before you speak such ill against your brother. I'll pray for you,
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John Davis
Stephen, I wonder why you feel the need to apologise for having an opinion. Where does this feeling of the need to apologise for "not being judgemental" come from? Is it from psych? This is a discussion page. You can't have a discussion without voicing an opinion. Please, don't apologise.
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Minister J.
Umm once again HIV is not mentioned in my Bible that was added in a later version to scare gays and so was the word homosexuality these words were never known back in Jesus days .... These words where added to the Bibles just to scare people of us gays .....my new updated Bible does not mention these words.
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Amber
That's one of the more ignorant statements I think I've seen around here about both the disease and homosexuality.
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BMW
What a very nasty comment/thought, what is really going on with you Rev. Bob
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Rev. Russell
Rob, Omg. I can’t believe you just said that. I can’t believe you mean that. I am a health care provider and I’ve witnessed the horrors of patients dying from HIV/AIDS and most of them heterosexual. Some of the nicest and most open minded accepting, loving people I have ever met are gay. There are gay health care providers saving people’s lives as we speak. Children. Think about that. I see a gay surgeon daily who saves children’s lives Rob. He was given a gift and chose to embrace his gift to save children Rob. Think about the countless children this man saves and treats every day. Years upon years of doing this. You are telling me that you wish this man to die a long excruciating death because of his sexual preference? I don’t have enough words for you Rob. WTF are you leaving behind when you die? How many children have you saved? How many parents and families have you spared the pain and anguish of losing their child? I have nothing else to say other than I am disgusted with people that think like you. I feel the need to pray now.
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Minister J.
For a Rev. To wish HIV on a person is a sin and as a minister of the universal Life Church I think you should be released of your title of Rev. It's guys like you that scare our kids and make them commit sucide thinking being gay is wrong ... There is a special place for you and God may not put you next to him your no Reverend your just someone with the fear of HIV JUST REMEMBER KARMA COMES BACK ... But only God Will Judge you not me .. ..
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DeLeon
Everyone should just silence rob by not responding. He deserves no response as he himself doesn't believe what he says but is just trying to upset. PLEASE IGNORE this infidel.
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PKaz
HIV was not a homosexual disease for one thing. It was rampant in other countries and made its way here. The only Thing God gave us is Freewill. It isn’t a trap. God does not want you because your heterosexual. He wants you because you are love. Not hate or judgmental. The invitation was to everyone. Live your own life for God. In jesus’ name. you except love into Your heart and it should grow. I can tell you this. Love and hate will not dwell in the same house. We live a life of love, commitment and we do it freely. God like. Fruits of the spirit will show a man to repentance or exceptance. Love everyone. By example we are called not chased... anyone and everyone are called to sit beside the father. I assure you he isn’t going to listen to someone judging or thinking they are better or purer than anyone else. You’ll end up sitting at the gate while some lowly homosexual offers you bread and water. In obiediance to Gods word. LOVE
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Bob Anderson
Rev. Bob; may God forgive you for wishing such a terrible illness on anyone. Your hate and bigotry has burned your soul and left you a hollow shell of a man.
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Carl Elfstrom
Rev. Bob, if you think there's something wrong with taking it in the ass, what about the mouth? Is that how you like it? I hope you're good at it.
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Sara
I can tell that Josh and Lolly are two caring people who struggled to do what they thought was correct in their faith community. Maybe the most loving thing to do is to let people be who they are. People were made to love and to be authentic to themselves. They shouldn't have to sacrifice themselves in order to stay in their chosen religious paths. Our faith communities need to understand this and help people who are in these life situations rather than shaming them or casting them out of their community. I hope the Mormon Church is as loving and caring as Lolly is.
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John Eftimiades
Good for them and good that they chose to share such a courageous act. Hopefully they can be a role model for many others.
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flugo
'Role model'!? I don't think so. The Bible, God's unchangeable Word, says that God hates divorce and demonstrates He hates homosexual conduct. He loves the sinner but hates sin. And His Son, Jesus, makes provision for rescue and restoration.
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Dan Atatakai
bob - God hates? Really? Remember that hatred is borne from ignorance and fear. If God hates, then that means God is not omniscient and not understanding.
May I suggest you take the time out to learn the historicity and culture of your own Bible to learn that it does NOT mention anything about homosexuality, but deals with other issues of culture. To assume modern terminology to older terms is inaccurate. Think of the term "grass" these days, compared to 50 or 100 years ago. The older term had to do with long single blades of greenery one finds in one's yard, where today's has to do with Marijuana. The same applies to your interpretation of the Bible.
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Clayton Beardmore
The Bible does "NOT mention anything about homosexuality," - REALLY?
How about this: Leviticus 18:22 identifies homosexual sex as an abomination, a detestable sin. Romans 1:26-27 declares homosexual desires and actions to be shameful, unnatural, lustful, and indecent. First Corinthians 6:9 states that homosexuals are unrighteous and will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Straight from the Bible, friend!
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Dan Atatakai
Clay - here is what the culture and historicity of the times of the biblical writings state about the passages you mention:
Leviticus 18:22 - About the Canaanite use of male temple prostitutes in religious ceremonies. It is NOTHING about homosexuality
Romans 1:26-27 - About Saul/Paul writing about an ancient Roman fertility ritual to the goddess Diana for increased fertility of one's livestock and better crop production which would end in an orgy. THAT is what these passages are about - NOT about two people of the same gender who happen to love each other.
1Cor 6:9? Look at KJV1611. You will not even find the term "homosexual". The term and meaning attached were added to the Bible rather recently. It is not in any of the previous writings.
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Charles Jenkins
It does not mention homosexuality.
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Minister J.
I don't know what Bible your reading because mine doesn't say anything about that in it ....you may wanna go get a new updated Bible guy.... We are in a new age and homosexuality is now accepted by most churches... So get your facts straight before you go to judge someone for only GOD can Judge others not people .....and not that stupid government made brain washer they called the Bible....
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Del
God has the right to judge, not you or me, by the way being Gay I believe the blood of Christ forgives the sin of being Gay and why because Josh was born that way so the blame is on Satin not Josh. Satin caused the problem and only Christ can forgive it. Stop judging your fellow man which is a Sin and yes Christ can even forgive that. The greatest commandment given was to Love thy fellow Man, so stop it.
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Jim Jones
"Leviticus 18:22 identifies homosexual sex as an abomination,"
Not in Hebrew. It is called toeveh, an unclean act (like touching a menstruating woman or using a chair she used). It is corrected by a mikveh, a ritual bath.
Don't use bad translations of the bible.
As for Romans, all that says is, "What happens in Rome, stays in Rome". Worse things happen in Vegas.
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flugo
Your valuation of God's hatred is without merit. You forgot, i guess, of God's judgement/hatred of homosexual practice in Sodom and Gomorrah and the outcome of their sinful acts. God is eternal, and He still hates homosexuality.
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Dan Atatakai
bob - It appears you never really read the Bible but just assumed what it says.
The fable of Sodom & Gomorrah did not say that God destroyed them because of homosexual practices but inhospitality and rape.
Again, given that hatred comes from ignorance and fear, why do think God is ignorant and afraid? Afraid of what?
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The Doctor
Anyone who thinks Sodom and Gomorrah had anything to do with homosexuals is either willfully ignorant or outright delusional. Especially because that same biblical narrative ends with incest being clearly espoused as a better alternative then letting a culture die.
Not to mention that is all old testament, as in Jewish not christian. Jesus was very anti old testament. Its the main reason the Jews worked in concert with the Romans to execute him as a rebellious radical liberal going against the establishment.
Jesus never once spoke a word condemning people for just living life peacefully and loving others while doing no harm.
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Minister J.
Homosexuality is never mentioned in the Bible infact that word wasn't made up till later years so I don't no which Bible your reading but it isn't right either
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David
Bob, you cannot use Leviticus and following passages to justify the hatred. When you put the early “laws” into a historical perspective, those laws were written to increase the population of the early Jewish community for the purpose of self preservation. Everyone around the early tribes were waging war against the Jewish people. Even though the Bible doesn’t give a clear picture of life at that time, a high population was needed to fight on a constant basis. Things were said and passed on through the many years simply to keep the Jewish population large enough to protect themselves. There is also the issue with translation. Sometimes, flawed people, as we all are, wrote what they perseived as the correct translation of the early texts of which were not the closest to being the original texts. No one should take anything as literal in the Bible. They should take it into their heart, and let God guide them now. And keep the prejudice out. God loves all. That is the only thought that should be in anyone’s mind and on their hearts. I’ll pray for you and for true guidance on this issue and all to come.
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Amber
Recheck your studies. Sodom and Gomorrah was about the treatment of others and the lack of respect and hospitality. KJV and related versions were changed more recently to make it about homosexuality. Earlier versions didn't mention it.
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Christopher Packer
Acryally the Sodom and Gomorrah story is not about homosexuality. The only bit remotely related was how the soldiers used rape to intimidate men in a cruel way - not about loving gay couples engaging in consensual intimacy. The main sins shown are about lack of hospitality for strangers, cruelty and greed - homosexuality never came into it and is a total fabrication to change the meaning of the whole story to turn it into a homophobic hate agenda.
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Bob
If god hates homosexuals then god is not god
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Peggie Johnson
Bob do you even know to who you are conversating with? Please read on the post respond and decern who your audience are. Listen ?. You don't even need to see them your decernment will give you the image-- if you are a true filled believer and the word is in you like a well of water.
Elder Peggie Johnson Carney Nashville TN.
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PKaz
God is love. God doesn’t hate. In sodom and Gomorrah the men were abusive,raping and lusting after men. It was about power. That is never right. Love is not power. Lots wife was turned to salt because she looked back ,after being told not to. Even in offering the daughters. It was about control. They were trying to soften their hearts. When two people love each other it is about commitment. It is about giving yourself to one another. I believe that it is sanctioned by God. Where two or more are gathered together in my name I will be there also. Love is love. Why are people so fixated on what people do behind closed doors. If they give their lives to God. It is in Love. In marriage God is asked to bless the union. He doesn’t strike them down or walk away. God knows your heart. Earth is temporal. Eternity is infinity. We will leave earthly things. There is no gender in spirit.
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Bob Anderson
Bob-you are living proof of the distortion of Christianity to suit the small-minded flocks who must be constantly reassured that there are others they can feel superior to and that it is alright to hate in God's sacred name. You must be a miserable little man to be so full of hatred for your fellow human beings..
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CG
David, I am really interested in the knowledge that you dropped in your post. Where may i find more information. Thanks
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PKaz
No matter what path you follow in life. If you think that your better than anyone you are mistaken. Many people give testimony into finding Christ. It’s hardly pretty However being able to forgive yourself and others is the goal. As far as rescue and restoration I think that telling someone that they are not Gay if they are is Fundimentally wrong . I don’t care who you are or what your struggling with or what your testimony is in Christ. Use it to bring people to the lord. There is no condemnation in anyone that asks Jesus into their heart. When you ask for forgiveness it isn’t for being Gay or hating someone or lying or loving. It is for being human. We are not without sin. There is no list that puts being a homosexual at the top. No one is without sin. Excepting oneself and asking for forgiveness isn’t because Your Gay. It is for finding Fault with Gods creation. God excepts you for who you are. He loves everyone unconditionally. He forgives unconditionally. Love has no judgment. It is a hand when your in the pit of loneliness. The light in the darkness of dispare. It is forgiveness when we don’t think we are good enough. When we think we have all the answers and think we have the right to condemn or deny anyone entrance into the kingdom of God. Based on things you fixate on in your head. Whether or not you struggle with accepting or giving love to people that YOU feel isnt right with God. It is not up to you. Don’t play ticket taker into the presence of God. If your telling anyone they are not welcomed. You are the outsider. God already excepts Them. All you have to do is ask for forgiveness because to be honest When you reject anyone based on hate or based on you being uncomfortable in the presence of a sinner. You have the problem. Make room at the table. The light of God shines in your eyes and resides in your soul. If it doesn’t your wrong. Fall to your knees and ask God to heal your heart and cleanse YOUR mind. Tell God you will stand in for this person giving your life to save them. Not for being gay but for helping them find their way.
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Charles Jenkins
Well said!
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Rob
Wrong. I hate child molestation and that’s certainly not borne of fear or ignorance. The Lord your God hates sin and that hatred is certainly not of fear or ignorance. Get behind thee Satan, you preach a false doctrine that will lead many astray.
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Dan Atatakai
Rob - personally, your God of Abraham is not my God.
I am not preaching but stating simple facts about hatred. By the way, the last time someone told me "Get behind thee Satan" was a 60-some woman in pedal pushers outside of a Times Market in Honolulu who learned that I happened to have the ethical base of Buddhism. She did not even stop to learn that even more than a million Christians are also Buddhist. Ignorance can be extremely divisive, let alone destructive.
You may disapprove of child molestation as I do and it may anger you, but why hatred?
Did you ever think about attempting to understand a perspective before condemning it because of your personal biases? It sounds you might be able to gain a bit of understanding if you attempt doing so.
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Peggie Johnson
Where two agree on earth touching any thing they ask it shall be done for them of my father which is in heaven. I'm in agreement with you, and you can be in agreement with me. That their eyes of understanding will be opened, and that God would send His laborers out to them, and that they Will not be able to resist the holy spirit who will be speaking to them through the holy spirit. Please stop debating with those whom has been blinded by the darkness. We have God's spirit, which is His Holy Spirit to do the work of understanding. Don't allow satan to lure you all into the Eve syndrome(example "didn't he say this and that)". They heard but can't heed. God bless all of our efforts to get to understand Him better. You get in your lane and the Holy Spirit will work in his lane.
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Sandra Lent
All Christian bibles make reference to homosexuality being wrong. In the old testament: You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. (Leviticus 18:22)
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. (Leviticus 20:13) For the new testament law, and those who feel we are no longer held by those laws,read Romans 1:26-27.
Certainly the Bible is subject to interpretation. And who interprets it? People. Therefore it gets rather strained at times.
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Minister Rob
What about lesbianism? Is that a sin? Why or why not, according to your Christian bible?
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Maria
Well said. People like Bob should leave passing judgement to our higher power.
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Rev. Elizabeth S. Arsenault
Telling Bob to brush up on his bible? I'm going to show you that you need to brush up on the bible. Homosexuality is a big no-no in the bible. Look here, I saved you from searching but you really should look it up so you can see for yourself. I'm educating, not being mean...
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. -Leviticus 18:22 NKJV
You must not have sexual intercourse with a man as you would with a woman; it is a detestable practice.
-Leviticus 18:22 CEB
If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them. -Leviticus 20:13 NKJV
If a man has sexual intercourse with a man as he would with a woman, the two of them have done something detestable. They must be executed; their blood is on their own heads.
-Leviticus 20:13 CEB
Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. - Romans 1:27 NKJV
Also, in the same way, the males traded natural sexual relations with females, and burned with lust for each other. Males performed shameful actions with males, and they were paid back with the penalty they deserved for their mistake in their own bodies.
- Romans 1:27 CEB
For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. - Romans 1:26 NKJV
That’s why God abandoned them to degrading lust. Their females traded natural sexual relations for unnatural sexual relations.
- Romans 1:26 CEB
[8] But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, [9] knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, [10] for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, … -1 Timothy 1:8-10 NKJV
[8] Now we know that the Law is good if used appropriately. [9] We understand this: the Law isn’t established for a righteous person but for people who live without laws and without obeying any authority. They are the ungodly and the sinners. They are people who are not spiritual, and nothing is sacred to them. They kill their fathers and mothers, and murder others. [10] They are people who are sexually unfaithful, and people who have intercourse with the same sex. They are kidnappers, liars, individuals who give false testimonies in court, and those who do anything else that is opposed to sound teaching. -1 Timothy 1:8-10 CEB
I gave you two different bibles. I saved these a long time ago because this comes up all the time. I'm always told it isn't in the bible and it is in the bible.
God Bless, Rev. Elizabeth S. Arsenault
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John Owens
Thank you.
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Dan Atatakai
Lizz - Let's review your passages which you claim supports making homosexuality as vile/evil/a sin/an abomination, from an academic/theological standpoint, using historicity and culture, shall we?
Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 - It was condemning the Canaanite religious practices of using male temple prostitutes in their "services". It had nothing to do with two people of the same gender who love each other.
Romans 1:26? Wrong again, young lady. This is Paul/Saul writing about an ancient Roman fertility ritual to the goddess Diana for improved crops and increased calvings. This ceremony ended in an orgy. THIS is what he was writing about, again, not homosexuality.
Your CEB is not accurate from a historical perspective. It is misunderstanding throughout.
Your 1Timothy posts have nothing to do with homosexuality, either. Again, your CEB is inaccurate, edited so as to conform with current definitions and not the original writings.
I am surprised that you did not include 1Cor 6:9-10. That is very popular with the ignorant "Sunday Morning Preacher" group. In KJV1611, it says NOTHING about homosexuals not entering the kingdom of heaven. It is not until later bible versions in which the term was added - much later.
I am not suggesting you attend seminary to learn this stuff, but I do recommend a simple undergraduate college class on Comparative World Religions, or Christianity 101 to learn what history and culture have to say about your bible.
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John Owens
And you just can't convince some people. Truth is hate to them, because they hate truth.
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Patricia
Actually, homosexuality is mentioned in the Bible more than once. But you actually have to read it to know that. It specifically says that a man is NOT to lie with a another man like lying with a woman, etc. And Jesus also said that His Father created man to come together with a woman in marriage. That is pretty specific. Then there is sodom and Gomorrah, which God specially destroyed because the people had become wantonly deviant sexually and ignored God’s commandments. Those two cities can still be found today with the evidence screaming out to the world: “Don’t repeat this!” To try and say that God ever approved of sexual sin and that it’s not in the Bible is just crazy and simply not true.
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John Owens
Thank you.
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Dan Atatakai
Patricia - I am terribly sorry, but your perception of the story of Sodom & Gomorrah in Genesis is skewed pretty badly. It had nothing to do with homosexuality, but inhospitality and rape. In the fable, God had warned the inhabitants numerous times, but they refused to adhere, so God destroyed them.
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Liz Wilcox
Thankfully god, jesus, satan, sin are all man-made constructs. Love is not. Love is love.
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John Owens
Solomon said God hates a few things: Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
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Dan Atatakai
John - Personally, I disagree with the concept of any omniscient and omnipotent being hating.
Do parents hate their 3-year-old child for throwing a hissy fit in the middle of the supermarket? I would hope not.
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John Owens
I think God hates those behaviors, atatakaidanjp. Scripture says He doesn't want anyone to perish (eternally), but wants them to do good things, and not bad. If a parent has a three year old who pitches a fit in a store, that is most probably from lack of parenting. By the age of three that child should know better than to have a tantrum. At any rate, it should only happen once or twice, IF the parent really loves the child, because they will teach them not to do that. This teaches the child to rule over their own temper and behave, making him or her a better human and less likely to be insane or criminal.
Still, God hates certain behaviors, and the seven of which Solomon spoke are listed above. Also, He refers to certain things as abominations. That would mean He thinks they are disgusting.
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Dan Atatakai
John - Why must God hate? What is it that God does not comprehend or fears?
Regarding a 3-year-old child throwing a temper tantrum for whatever reason, why would a parent hate the child? Is it not suggested to remove the child from the store and keep the child from any positive confirmation until the child changes his or her attitude?
Abominations apply to religious ceremonial activities, not acts of sin per se.
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Beth K
So, do you really think God created some people so he can hate them? Do you think God created some people to be denied a partner? After that same God said that it is not good for man to be alone?
Sexual orientation may be genetic, or it may be set in the womb or very early childhood. It's set by the time someone is 2 - long before they know what sex even is.
These people have attempted to live a lie, to have Josh live an unhappy life, which is clearly not the one he was set up to live. In the mean time, they've created 4 more people who have to live with his choice to live a life which was not the one his mind was set up to live. He could stay married, stay unfulfilled. Lolly too could stay married, with the undercurrent of a husband who really doesn't want "a wife", while he may love the person she is.
Would any all-loving god do this to anyone?
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Dan Atatakai
Beth - said very well. Thank you!
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paul
You are right, God said it is not good for a man to be alone. Don't stop there, continue on. That is why God created woman, and the two shall be one. don't pick apart scripture for your agenda, tell the whole truth of God's word.
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Dan Atatakai
Paul - it is not my agenda. It is an issue of how nature works. Not all beings are heterosexual. More than 1500 species of mammalian life forms on earth have homosexual populations. Humans fit into that category.
What about the forms of life which are asexual? Are they evil? Asexual reproduction is quite common throughout nature.
While you are at it, please explain sea horses and how it is the male who takes care of the gestation of their infants.
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The Doctor
Sadly folks Rev Bob here is a classic case of a radical wannabe christian extremist. He like his ilk use intentionally mistranslated and heavily edited modern versions of the christian scripture to justify malice and violence. Just as was done by spanish christians during the reconquest, european christians during the crusades, and so many others through out the centuries.
While no christian myself as a non denominational minister of the ULC I study the history of judaic/christian faiths and admire the core of the peaceful and loving intent that the new testament and Jesus wished to bring to counter and combat the violent and bloody old testament and tribal faiths of that part of the world at that time.
Turn the other cheek, judge not lest ye be judged, the seven virtues and seven sins are simple and noble concepts that even non christians can admire.
Hateful narrow minded bigotry on the other hand is a great way to antagonize and disgust even a seeker of enlightenment like myself.
May the Powers That Be watch over the Weed family. Let they be safe from the hateful liars like Rev Bob here.
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Charles Jenkins
God does NOT hate. Your personal hate is not a valid excuse for your response.
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Dan Atatakai
Charles - Well stated. Thank you!
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jeremy cloward
Please tell me you are not using Leviticus for this opinion you just stated. Nor Deuteronomy, or ... well, ANY of the Torah. It shows you know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT THE BIBLE, if you are using those books for your argument.
The bible is hardly unchangable. You will find problems from one page to the next, contradictions too many to count. Because the book itself is faulty at its core. You have NO understanding as to what these people are going through. You judging them on your limited experience and lack of understanding in their lives and on this matter shows you are nothing more than a Pharisee hiding behind your understanding of some faulty scriptures. You have clearly missed the point of christ.-
Dan Atatakai
Jeremy - as is quite obvious, brought out by the numerous posts, is that so many people have only assumed what they were told was fact, when in reality, they have missed the point way too many times. One simple point which comes to mind is the 1Cor 6:9 passage which, in modern Bibles, uses the word "homosexual", when in KJV1611, it was never there. For those who are attempting to justify their fears, the term "effeminate" in that same passage has NOTHING to do with homosexuality.
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Patty
I agree with the Bible says . However I didn’t want a divorce but I couldn’t make my first husband stay with me. He was out fooling around and when I found out he wanted to divorce I try to make it work but it didn’t . I also believe God does not like homosexuals . However things happen and I can’t be the judge I have to show them love or I will never get them back where they need to be. God is the judge for them and me and we are not to be the judge. Much is I would love to follow every single thing in the Bible sometimes it just don’t happen. However it was a new rule made and it was to show love . If you have love it takes care of the other 10 Commandments. That’s what Jesus said not necessarily exact words.
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The Doctor
Patty Jesus did not espouse the ten commandments. Those are old testament hebrew rules. Jesus constantly defied and argued against the bloody old faiths including the old testament and his fellow jewish people.
The 7 virtues and 7 sins are christian, and while they warn of lust they do not condemn any form of love.
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Mark
Sorry, you’re living in the past. God did not write the Bible. God does not judge, or issue edicts.
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Tatiacha
"God's unchangeable word" has in fact been changed over and over in every translation into another language and likely by scribes as well. It was written by men and changed by men. Even the fact it was ever inspired by God is debatable, but if I take that as a given, it was still inspired through men who are all imperfect messengers.
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chiefhall
Exactly. Well said.
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PKaz
No matter what path you follow in life. If you think that your better than anyone you are mistaken. Many people give testimony into finding Christ. It’s hardly pretty However being able to forgive yourself and others is the goal. As far as rescue and restoration I think that telling someone that they are not Gay if they are is Fundimentally wrong . I don’t care who you are or what your struggling with or what your testimony is in Christ. Use it to bring people to the lord. There is no condemnation in anyone that asks Jesus into their heart. When you ask for forgiveness it isn’t for being Gay or hating someone or lying or loving. It is for being human. We are not without sin. There is no list that puts being a homosexual at the top. No one is without sin. Excepting oneself and asking for forgiveness isn’t because Your Gay. It is for finding Fault with Gods creation. God excepts you for who you are. He loves everyone unconditionally. He forgives unconditionally. Love has no judgment. It is a hand when your in the pit of loneliness. The light in the darkness of dispare. It is forgiveness when we don’t think we are good enough. When we think we have all the answers and think we have the right to condemn or deny anyone entrance into the kingdom of God. Based on things you fixate on in your head. Whether or not you struggle with accepting or giving love to people that YOU feel isnt right with God. It is not up to you. Don’t play ticket taker into the presence of God. If your telling anyone they are not welcomed. You are the outsider. God already excepts Them. All you have to do is ask for forgiveness because to be honest When you reject anyone based on hate or based on you being uncomfortable in the presence of a sinner. You have the problem. Make room at the table. The light of God shines in your eyes and resides in your soul. If it doesn’t your wrong. Fall to your knees and ask God to heal your heart and cleanse YOUR mind. Tell God you will stand in for this person giving your life to save them. Not for being gay but for helping them find their way.
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Jim Jones
Google (centurion pais)
Also Google "lyings of a woman"
And read Matthew 25:35-40
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Mary Benoit
So you think God made a mistake? The Bible is one book about belief, among others, all written by men who want to control others. There are other interpretations of you selected passages. You think you know more than the loving God who created each of us with love?
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Dan Atatakai
IMHO, it is far better that he face the facts of his feelings and not continue to live a lie "for the sake of the marriage." I would think that the major goal in life is to actually enjoy it and to celebrate it daily, not to live in conflict constantly because one is unwilling to correct a bad direction.
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Steven
The greatest mistruth is the belief that any religion would condemn an honorable practicing individual for believing s/he is not worthy because s/he chooses to live an honest life~not the life others impose upon another. I’m very happy that Josh made the best decision for himself and his Family. May they all begin to live their new lives.
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Mary Benoit
Fundamentalism in any flavor is wrong. Once we think we can decide for another we have overstepped our league. ISIS in other coat is still ill conceived.
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Debra
Sorry to piggy back on your post... God is love. Love covers a multitude of sin. For God so loved the WORLD... He will reconcile all things, make all things new. We see, in all our brilliant "biblical" righteousness, dimly. We say that we'll be surprised at who we see in heaven, yet are the first to judge, and then claim its our right to judge our fellow believers. If we walk in love there is no law against us. We are all broken and imperfect beyond our own fixing and faith. We are called to live by love not the knowledge of good and evil. I will live by the law of conscience. If I know to do good and don't do it, for me that is sin, and thankfully only god knows the inner workings of my heart. My child is gay. She loves God and was terrified of her feelings. I had to face god and ask him how great was his love and then I began to grasp (barely)the height, depth, and width of his love. ? ??
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Agar Yacapin
The Church is perfect but the members were not perfect... Gay people should not be condemn the same also of the Church were they belong, Satan is attacking the members of the church their wakenesses but still remains to individuals a freedom to choose for themselves this is how the gospel of Jesus Christ taught to the people... Some churches are fault finders is the prime source of their doctrines... God is our judge... their is a remedy of sins is a real and true repentance...
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Liz Wilcox
god, satan, sin, jesus are all manmade constructs. Love is not. Love is love.
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Peter Chappell
the church is perfect...is it? you can be gay at this church if you reman celebate or get a heterosexual marriage. how inclusive...church entrenched in the 1950,s...stay in the closet or get tossed out of the church...or live your life as a lie in marriage...this church is the Stepford Wives all over again...how can the church preach tolerance andhave these enshrined precepts
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Chaplain George
There is no such thing as a perfect religion, perfect church, or perfect person; and there never will be if we cannot “to thine own self be true”.
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Do some of you people read the things you write? God help you.
Robert - For example? Your post seems a bit vague and can be taken in so many different ways.