A historic Washington D.C. church has taken a gigantic step by appointing its first lesbian couple to partner-lead the congregation. The Calvary Baptist Church will now be led by Sally Sarratt and Maria Swearingen, two women who are bringing an entirely new image to the pulpit. The lesbian couple has extensive ministerial experience, and church officials say their values align closely with those of the congregation.
Marching Forward
While many congregations across the country have gay pastors, Sarratt and Swearingen become one of the first married gay couples to share a spot on the pulpit.
Swearingen calls the job a "dream that has unfolded", and says that she never imagined it being possible when growing up. The young pastor also sees the shift toward modernization being in line with the goals of church, despite the fact that progressive values tend to fly in the face of long-held ideas and traditional religious beliefs. She explains that "the work of the church has been and always will be to set the table of hospitality for all people."
Conservative Branches Push Back
Although many denominations are trending toward more tolerant beliefs, there has been no shortage of criticism for the decision to put a lesbian couple on the pulpit.
Just weeks after the decision, protestors burst through the doors of Calvary Baptist Church carrying signs and chanting slogans. The group told church members they "were going to hell" for allowing gay pastors and that the building was now "the house of Satan."
Strong disapproval was also voiced by members of the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC), a socially conservative branch of the Baptist faith. Current SBC pastor Joseph Lyles said he was "surprised" and "concerned" to hear about the move. He finds it "difficult" to support same-sex relations "with a biblical basis". Another pastor pointed to the hiring of Sarratt and Swearingen as an example of the progressive branch's "impulse to try to modify Christianity".
No Traditional Church
Calvary Baptist Church is a landmark in the heart of Washington D.C. From a first glance, it's easy to understand why this place holds a special place in the hearts of locals believers and non-believers alike. The beautiful red hue of its jagged, gothic architecture contrasts against the clear, balmy sky as it juts up from a subdued Washington D.C. street corner. The whole scene makes for a traditional picture of the nation's capital.
However, the Calvary Baptist Church is anything but traditional.
It was first founded by abolitionists way back in 1862. In the 1980s, it broke unwritten laws by welcoming women into leadership roles. Then in 2012, it formally cut ties with the Southern Baptist Convention due to "major perspective differences" namely its attitudes toward the LGBT community. In 2014, Calvary Baptist Church ordained the first transgender Baptist minister.
By naming a lesbian couple to lead the congregation, the historical church has further cemented its reputation as a haven of progressive attitudes within the sometimes-rocky religious landscape.
A Changing Landscape
Many people can remember a time when homosexuality was a serious taboo, not only in religious circles but in larger society as well. Now same-sex marriage is legal nationwide, and gay couples are standing at the same pulpits which refused to accept them just a few generations ago.
For many, this new cultural landscape represents a continued march toward tolerance and compassion for all. Others see it in a darker light: as a degradation of religious values and Christian morals.
Where do you stand? Does allowing gay leaders to preach at the pulpit go against the teachings of the Bible, as some would argue? Or is this simply the next logical step in progressive religious tradition?
153 comments
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Mevakesh Derech
Hmmmmmm. It's interesting that all who comment here (see above), Christian or not, seem to draw a sharp distinction between lesbian women (e.g. the ministers of Calvary Baptist Churc), and homosexual men. Again and again, Leviticus is cited, and everyone claims without qualification that the Bible prohibits male homosexuality. However, this emphasis tacitly underscores the fact that Leviticus says nothing at all about lesbianism. There are no grounds at all to oppose the ministry of Ms Sarratt and Ms Swearingen. Which leaves one curious: where do they stand on male homosexuality? Are gay men allowed to visit or attend Calvary Baptist? Given the huge stress placed on Leviticus, I guess not. Certainly, the report does not even hint that Sarratt and Swearingen would tolerate male homosexuals in their congregation. And the reasoning of liberal-minded Christians and of non-believers (and of Universal Life Ministries) as argued here seems to point in the direction of a dual policy - including, supporting and promoting lesbian women, such as the new ministers themselves, and at the same time arguing that the "Bible" requires the exclusion of gay men.
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jeremy cloward
You do know that Leviticus was not written by Moses right? It was penned by the Xenephobe zealots in the late 5th century BC. Just a heads up, thus, Toss ANYTHING Leviticus had to say. I get exhausted reading the homophobic rants of people who love quoting the bible. First you should know the truth ABOUT the bible, before you try to show truth FROM the bible. I could write a letter, and sign it as Abraham Lincoln, it would be worthless as a document, and nothing in it should be considered valid. Thus, why does anyone consider Anything outside of Exodus to be real scripture. Moses did not write anything but a few chapters of exodus. Knowing all of that, tread carefully in condemning homosexuality in any form. These are books written by men, trying to lay down a set of laws, that made them different from the other pagan religions at the time. NOT from god. NOT inspired of god, just written by zealots.
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flugo
derch: The Bible says a lot about 'gender relationships'. And, God finds a deviation from His original design in Gen 2:18-26; Matt 19:4-6; and Eph 5:22-33 a travesty.
These two 'lesbos' do NOT represent Biblical standards, and have NO business behind the pulpit.
As Christians we are to lovingly point out to them their Biblical waywardness and to lovingly point them to the redemptive work of Christ on the cross for their .salvation.
Let's not become part of the 'toleration, inclusiveness, love everybody and everything' run-away train careening down the slippery slope toward moral and spiritual oblivion.
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Rev. John D. Partin
fluke-o (by the way, are you one of the great grandchildren or grandchildren of Harpo, Chico, Groucho, Zeppo or Gummo?)! Anyway, neither you nor any others of the Marx family or anyone else know what was "God's original design" just from some verses in the Bible that Bible writers put there to make "God agree with them". So, none of the Marx family clan or anyone else can know what is a "deviation from that design". What if homosexuality is part of God's design as a natural means of population control? Then your being against homosexuality would be your being against God's design!! Watch out for lightning bolts, the ground's opening up and swallowing you, locusts, and the other plagues that came upon Egypt, heretic and blasphemer!! Gay couples certainly have as much business being behind the pulpit as any other people do, who also aren't following all of the Bible's teachings or avoiding everything that it calls "abominations". Let him who is without sin among you cast the first stone!
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Rev. John D. Partin
fluke-o, calling those women "lesbos" is very disrespectful and not loving your neighbor as yourself or doing unto others as you would have them do unto you, as Jesus tells you to do. So, why aren't you following the teaching of your "Master"? Also, homosexuality isn't proved to be a sin just because of homophobic Bible verses that call it such and were put into "God's mouth" to make "Him agree with these Bible writers", since that would be circular "reasoning".
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Jash Peter Thiessen
So I Skimmed through all the Hundreds of Comments.....like the Skim of Fat that rises from the Milk.....Our Lord Jesus will take the Best the Righteous but then will take the Milk too....Such as the Example of the Pharisees who's Prayers does our Heavenly Father listen to....In the Book of Revelation it speaks of a Large Bowl where an Angel takes Prayers too.....I will judge no one on Earth... Repeat after me..Amen......Go to Blue Earthling Extraterrestrial/You Tube......be inspired by Love your Neighbor .....Jesus the Messiah.
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Gary
The Bible is the words of the lord it is not up to us to Twist it around to what we think it should say THIS goes against everything we have Ben teaching and the way we was talt . I stand for the lord and I will go by what the Bible teaches. Not what you think it should say ?
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jeremy cloward
Im sure you understand that the book of Leviticus is not inspired scripture from god. It was not written by Moses, but by a fanatical bunch of zelots trying to instill a Xenophobic jewish government by inventing all of those laws. It was written roughly in the late 500s BCE. Knowing that, why don’t you just toss Leviticus out the window, it serves little value for human understanding, and bringing one closer to god. In fact, toss 90% of the Books of Moses, as he did not write them, only a few select chapters in Exodus… I fear that most people who justify using the bible in their mistreatment of others, do so by cherry picking what they like and dont like. If people were to actually know the truth ABOUT the bible, before they tried to unload the truth FROM the bible, the world would be a much more educated, and tolerant place. I would suggest that you go learn a few things about the bible, its history, (of the book itself) the authorship, and the full understanding of what was going on when something was said, or written. Without that, you look very foolish, and ignorant. (If I had said what you just did, I would be sorely embarrassed. ) (stated in another part of this thread).
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Mary Crescent
I don't understand why u call yourself a minister. I can only imagine what u think of the Holy Spirit. May God have mercy on your soul
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Rob Devlin
The continuous Bible references, without any reference to humanity - the constant verses being quoted while spouting hate to others - all of whom are God's children - the inability to act in today's world as Jesus Christ himself walked, acted and loved during his time on earth....... shame on you. There is nothing in your words or attitude to your fellow human beings that should ever be associated with the definition of being a Christian.
You are correct in one thing, the day of reckoning will come for every one of us. Our behavior, our ability to promote kindness and love, to be there to help our siblings - as we are all God's children - will undoubtedly be weighed.
Jesus embraced the Leper, befriended the Harlot, saved the distraught and forlorn. Through kindness and love he embraced, enthralled and became everlasting.
Shame on the individual who has chosen to become stone hearted and closed to humanity. For wasn't it to humanity that God sent his only son? He sent himself in human form, to save us.
Man wrote the Book. Our Father sent his son.
....and no verses or quotes can take away from that miracle.
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Brother John
If you mean why did I repeat the question (As believers, are the three of you forgiven or not?), it's because you didn't answer it, and still haven't. I thought it was pretty simple with "yes" or "no" as the two possibilities. Let me break it down for you.....
Have you ever sinned, Larry?
Are you still a sinner, or is your life pure and sin free?
Are the sins of everyone who accepts Jesus as their saviour forgiven, including rapists, murderers and pedophiles?
Are your sins forgiven?
How about the two Christian pastors in this story? Are they forgiven?
No university degree for me, Larry, but I do have "smarts". If you're one of those elitist snobs who only respects the views of those with formal educations and credentials, watch the Sam Harris lecture I posted on May 3.
Sam Harris is the author of five New York Times bestsellers. His books include The End of Faith, Letter to a Christian Nation, The Moral Landscape, Free Will, Lying, Waking Up, and Islam and the Future of Tolerance (with Maajid Nawaz). The End of Faith won the 2005 PEN Award for Nonfiction. Harris's work has been published in more than 20 languages and has been discussed in The New York Times, Time, Scientific American, Nature, Newsweek, Rolling Stone, and many other journals. He has written for The New York Times, The Los Angeles Times, The Economist, The Times (London), The Boston Globe, The Atlantic, The Annals of Neurology, and elsewhere. Harris also regularly hosts a popular podcast.
Sam Harris received a degree in philosophy from Stanford University and a Ph.D. in neuroscience from UCLA.
Any comments about his education and what he presents?
......."I’ll let others show you how smart you are and leave this for your benefit…"
You already let others step up for you, Larry, indicating you're just another troll making unsubstantiated, bigoted and judgemental comments then ducking back into the darkness when challenged.
Just a head's up, Larry. In this thread alone, you've made 15 comments and 10 of them involve Satan (2 out of 3!!) along with a few "burn in Hells", making you the repetition king. Congratulations!! As a reward, you can keep the ... you offered for my benefit. I have an unlimited supply as you can see...................................................................
I know you're reading this and assume you'll continue to avoid simple, straightforward questions and mature discussions and, instead, carry on with your judgements and warnings about Satan. I'll read them with continuing bemusement.
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Larry Copeland
Why do you say the same thing every time? No education? No smarts? I'll let others show you how smart you are and leave this for your benefit...
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Brother John
That's only your biased and preposterous opinion, Larry. There are others posting here with questions who are not "Satan". I am not a Christian, the Bible is not "the word of God", and there is no Satan. It's your choice to believe ancient myths written, edited and compiled by fallible, biased men. But not everyone is gullible and desperate to be special snowflakes.
It was interesting to see you stand down when challenged in my April 29 post and do the hand off to Alex. Perhaps you're too busy reading the entire Bible for the 16th time.
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Larry Copeland
Only Satan would question Gods words as true or false Christians are told by God not to argue about them!!!
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Brother John
Hey Larry, you didn't address this after condemning both of these ladies as sinners.....
Brother John April 24, 2017 at 6:28 pm Really, CL? Most Bibles say Jesus died for our sins and we are forgiven. Sally and Maria are both believers and Pastors. Without knowing a thing about you, I’ll guess that you’re also a sinner by biblical standards. As believers, are the three of you forgiven or not?
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Larry Copeland
If people keep on sinning against Gods word they have to repent after each. If they keep on sinning they are mocking God and he will deal with them on judgement day you will be judged on how you obey Gods word of instruction on how to be saved Satans followers like you will be judged also!!!
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Brother John
Contrary to what you and others have claimed, Alex, I provided links to hundreds of biblical contradictions in my April 27 post to CL and re-posted some again on the 29th. I agree that humans have "limited ability of logic, common sense and understanding", but it's sufficient enough to recognize blatant contradictions and half truths. Don't forget that the humans who wrote, transcribed and edited the Bible over the centuries (yes, it is an ancient, man made text) had the same limitations along with whatever agendas their beliefs constructed.
You chose to totally avoid the specific examples I provided in my post just above yours (Apr. 29). Prove your contention that there are no contradictions in the Bible by addressing the three of them. The link to the scriptures in question is in the Apr. 27 post. I encourage you (and others) to include the 5 minutes it takes to watch the video of Dr. Ehrman. There are members posting here that have substantial biblical knowledge, but few, in any, that surpass his knowledge of the Gospels, the heart of Christianity.
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Ps.Alex Bosch
Interestingly I have made the following statement in one of my blog posts: Under Heading: Guard Your Heart Part 1; ”Understand this - Perception, Assumption, Expectation, Disappointment, Judgement and Fear, is fully/100% owned by the Perceiver. Has got nothing to do with anyone else!”
I had taken the time to watch and read the links you posted, however having studied Ancient Hebrew and Ancient Greek in the 80’s and my Theological studies and Ministry studies, I cannot believe people could “fall” for such “cleverly invented” stories. Brother John,It seems you did not understand a word I wrote in my previous posts, let’s summaries: 1) The BIBLE is a truly stated and recorded by man, however not everything is a statement of truth! – Translation errors did occur & the BIBLE tells us of the lying pens of the scribes!Jer8vs8. 2) To find the TRUTH about the so called “contradiction” you need to refer to any and all available historical evidence: a. Original Ancient Hebrew, Ancient Greek, Ancient Aramic texts. b. Read all available translation of the BIBLE, you are able to understand. c. Read the books omitted out of the BIBLE like: i. Books of the Apocrypha: ii. Books of the Pseudepigrapha: iii. The Didache, or “The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles” 3) Once you have done the above you then go to the Annals of the Kings, which is a none Biblical reference to Historical events which took place during their reigns. Also take the time to research other Historical references. 4) Then you look at Scientific evidence, Astrological Evidence, Archaeological and Physical evidence relating to Historical events mentioned in the BIBLE. 5) Only once you have done all the above you will have gained some understanding, even though still limited “human understanding” of which you will start questioning your own belief system and convince yourself of the authenticity of the BIBLE. This is the reason I cannot be easily convinced by these “cleverly invented” stories, for they don’t make sense considering all the personal research I have done by following the above 5 steps. Here is a given I found all answers to all questions are written in the BIBLE, and is revealed throughout the BIBLE in different places and in different ways. Let me just give you a simple example of some of the “Contradictions” mentioned: It only rained for 40 days and 40 nights, not 150 days! How could this even be contentious? After 40 Days & Nights of heavy rain, the whole world was flooded, which takes time to recede, the whole earth was covered for 150 days after the rain!. Ie:We have had 250mm rain in one hour and the whole neighbourhood was under water for a few days & it took a week to recede, what would this mean over 40 days and nights of heavy rain? Staying with the Flood,ie: the carnivores issues mentioned, surely there were carcasses of drowned animal, or shallow pools with fish, for fish were not destroyed in the flood! Then again,no matter the theories about animal, who fed them?, what did they eat?, how did they get to the Ark? (All carnal mindset), the fact remains that Archaeological findings and Scientific Carbon dating have found Noah’s Ark on the mountains of Ararat, just as written in the BIBLE. Which is factual evidence, which cannot be denied!, this is not theory, it is factual, so what would you want more to rather believe some “cleverly invented theories” or factual evidence? Then the theory of Dr. Ehrman, I watched his video, interesting half-truths which seem sound considering his qualification, however what he neglects to tell the audience, is this: The original manuscripts which he states was not written by Matthew,Mark,Luke & John, is in actual fact FALSE, the truth is, they WERE written by Matthew,Mark,Luke and John, as they all walked with Jesus. However, the original manuscripts were only compiled approx. 50 to 100 years AD by Jewish scholars into the format known as the Gospels. So, he has confused the authors with the compilers. This truth also revealed in the BIBLE see below: ie: With regards to Matthew Luke5:27-28 He held a great banquet for Christ.. So Matthew was there with Christ and Knew him!, Mark, referred to as John Mark associated with Paul, to whom Christ appeared to in person when he was Saul. Luke, traveling companion of Paul, refers to “us” indicating that he himself was present at these times. Acts 16v10;20v6;27v1;28v16 John, Beloved disciple John13v23, who followed Jesus. The truth is the authors of the Gospels had given eyewitness account in their manuscripts however, the compilers of their writings were not eye witnesses as this only took place 50 to100 years later. Another thing Dr.Ehrman neglects to mention about the Gospels, is that they are the fulfilment of the Prophecies in the Old Testament about Christ.
I find it interesting that people will follow a theory of someone who lived 2017 years AD above the collation of the original manuscripts of authors of which scholars collated them 50-100 years AD.
The question each person needs to ask themselves is: Do they speak from other peoples mouths or have they taken the time and effort to research the information themselves?
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Brother John
I'm impressed that you are able to read both ancient Hebrew and Greek, Alex. Shall we assume that your credentials granted you access to the same extant manuscripts that Dr. Ehrman has studied for decades? A simple search for Bart Ehrman brings up page after page of links, as he is recognized as one of the most knowledgeable of NT scholars. Not so for Alex Bosch. This bears some significant weight regarding your claim that his decades of scholarly research resulted in FALSE conclusions.
You claim..."The original manuscripts which he states was not written by Matthew,Mark,Luke & John, is in actual fact FALSE, the truth is, they WERE written by Matthew,Mark,Luke and John, as they all walked with Jesus."
It's important to note that there are no "original manuscripts" of the Gospels. Only copies, of copies, of copies, written decades after the events they claim to chronicle. The excerpts below are, in fact, addressing the issue of authorship, not "compilers".
'In the early centuries of Christianity, there were over 200 Christian gospels in circulation, all of them containing wildly varied stories and theologies. As the Church became organized there was much worry that no-one truly knew what Jesus had said or done, so they ratified just four Gospels: They picked the number four because "there were four winds, four points of the compass, four corners of the temple", mirroring the arguments of Irenaeus in the 2nd century - "just as the gospel of Christ has been spread by the four winds of heaven over the four corners of the earth, so there must be four and only four Gospels". The four canonical gospels comprise of synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke) plus John. None are eye-witness accounts of Jesus' life and they are all written in Greek, not in the native tongues of anyone who met and followed Jesus. Many of the stories in the Gospels are copied from Greek god-man legends, especially those of Dionysus and Osiris. Although we now know them by the names of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, they are all originally anonymous." Source: humanreligions.info
"Even though the Gospels go under the names of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, they were, in fact, written anonymously. These names first appeared in the second century and were assigned to the anonymous writings to give the writings apostolic authority. The Gospel of Mark was written before any of the other canonical gospels and was written after the fall of the second temple which occurred in 70 CE." Source: thechurchoftruth.org
The following is from one of the more popular apologetics websites, CARM.
"Mark was not an eyewitness to the events of Jesus' life. He was a disciple of Peter and undoubtedly it was Peter who informed Mark of the life of Christ and guided him in writing the Gospel known by his name. "Papias claimed that Mark, the Evangelist, who had never heard Christ, was the interpreter of Peter, and that he carefully gave an account of everything he remembered from the preaching of Peter."7 Generally, Mark is said to be the earliest gospel with an authorship of between A.D. 55 to A.D. 70."
"Luke was not an eyewitness of the life of Christ. He was a companion of Paul who also was not an eyewitness of Christ's life."
The following is from the Wikipedia page Historical Reliability of the Gospels....
"Strictly speaking, each Gospel is anonymous. The Gospel of John is somewhat of an exception, although the author simply refers to himself as "the disciple Jesus loved" and claims to be a member of Jesus' inner circle. During the following centuries, each canonical gospel was attributed to an apostle or to the close associate of an apostle. Most scholars have rejected the traditional attributions." "Most scholars believe that Mark was written by a second-generation Christian, around or shortly after the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Second Temple in year 70."
"All four Gospels are anonymous in the sense that none includes the author's name. The traditional names - Matthew, Mark, Luke and John - did not become associated with these writings until the second century. In the early centuries of Christianity, our four Gospels coexisted with a number of other Christian writings, many of which have not been preserved. Finally, the Synod of Carthage adopted the present twenty-seven New Testament books, including the four Gospels, as the canon of the New Testament in the year 397." Source: chistianbiblereference.org
"The first four historical books of the New Testament are supplied with titles (Euangelion kata Matthaion, Euangelion kata Markon, etc.), which, however ancient, do not go back to the respective authors of those sacred writings." Source: Catholic Encyclopedia
It would be in Christianity's (and humankind's) best interest if the Bible's portrayal of it's God were not accurate and the "one and only Truth".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcO4TnrskE0
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jeremy cloward
Hey, It appears that you have been wise in looking for the truth about the bible, before you went off trying to teach the truth from the bible. Wonderful, its good to know there are more academics out there, instead of just "Bible thumping preachers". I went to harvard divinity school and spent so much time doing just that, taking apart the scriptires, doing a metadata and forensic analysis of everything, before we even approached the "Written word of god". Most people if they did that, would see the bible and christianity very differently. Thank you for your input
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Brother John
Here's something that's both funny and educational about contradictions in the Bible for those who find reading the Bible boring and confusing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB3g6mXLEKk
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Chris Harrison
Amen!
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Ps.Alex Bosch
Interesting views, a great example of man’s wisdom and understanding using mans logic and common sense to question everything from God’s Deity, Creation, Historical Events and the ability to create controversies. This is all natural to mankind, however man’s ignorance will always be revealed when the truth is presented. We are Created in God’s image and therefore are “creators” of our own world & belief systems. (This world and belief system we have created, not God!)Thus, it is inevitable that people will differ with each other. The truth however is, no matter what we think or believe,we need to understand we are limited to our own ignorant carnal mindset & cannot fathom the Greatness of God our Creator. Mankind does not have the abiltiy to understand it, as we are limited to perceptions and opinions, created in our own minds & emotions, influenced by what we have been taught, what we feel,what we hear,what we see & what we experience, which by no means is factual. Let’s put this into perspective, mankind believed the earth was flat until the 6th Century BC and speculated about it until 3rd Century BC only by 17th century AD was the Earth ellipsoid discribed by Isaac Newton, however no matter how detailed the scientific facts are, there are still people today who believe the earth is flat! Now, here is a fact you might not know, the Bible which is refered by some as “a man made ancient text full of errors and contradictions”, has centuries before, any scientist figured out the earth was round, told us the earth was round and suspended in space! Job26v7: He spreads out the northern skies,over empty space;He suspends the earth over nothing. Then Isaiah 40vs22: He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, You see not only does the Bible tell us the earth is a round, it also tells us we are in outer space suspended over nothing!. Then in Job31v26 if I have regarded the sun in its radiance or the moon moving in splendor, ..we know now that the moon orbits the earth, but it was in the BIBLE before we knew! Ecclesiastes 1:5 The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises. We now know through astrology that the sun,moon and earth are in orbit, yet again it was in the BIBLE before we knew! We only figured this out in the 17th Century when the telescope was invented, how could “man made ancient text” have known this? Just the above example is proof that the BIBLE is inspired by the Holy Spirit and hold the hidden secrets of God, for which “man” could have known this at that time? This is but one example,however there are thousands of such cases written in the BIBLE.
The biggest mistake man has made, is to measure our Infinate Omnipresent God according to our limited & restricted human mindset and to believe we understand God our Creator! We don’t for as scientist become more sophisticated and technology improve, it just proves the Infinate Greatness of God our Creator. Don’t think if we have “discovered” some scientific breakthrough, that it is new, NO it has been there since God Created us, we have only now found technology to reveal it. In actual fact science only proves, that which is already written in the BIBLE. Despite all their efforts to search it out, no one can discover its meaning. Even if the wise claim they know, they cannot really comprehend it. This is also written in the BIBLE Ecclesiastes 8:17 We need to understand the BIBLE is a truly stated and recorded by man, however not everything is a statement of truth! Now, here lies the secret, when you read the Bible to find errors and to build a logical explanation for everything, you are in actual fact missing the secrets of Creation and prophecies being revealed, which holds the promise of God’s Love & Grace. There is NO contradiction in the Bible, what people understand to be contradiction is in actual fact the natural tendency of human nature to try and make sense of things, according to the limited ability of logic, common sense and understanding. However, we cannot fathom God’s unlimited Love for mankind. If God has been anything like these “cleverly invented arguments”people highlight in today’s day and age as “contradictions” written in the BIBLE & perceive god to be, we would not be here today having this discussion, as this “cleverly invented god”, people are referring to, would have destroyed mankind. The BIBLE however speaks about many “gods and many lords” which are not “gods at all”, but examples of the evil inclination of man’s own heart. But by Grace we have been given the opportunity to search for the Truth as stated in God’s Word so none of us will be lost. You see whether you believe it or not, it does not change anything, for creation is proof of our Creator.The Truths found hidden in the BIBLE, all dependent on how you search for them in the BIBLE. Let’s put this in human terms, look at all the buildings in the world, we don’t even know who built them, however the fact that we can see them proves there was a builder who built them. Whether you believe there was a builder or not, the fact is there had to be a builder otherwise there would not be a building, this is pure logic! So, when we make statements like “it does not make logical sense”, it reveals man’s own ignorance in understanding the term logic. As the proof of God is in creation which we experience and see everyday! The interesting thing about these “man made ancient text” (as people call them), all major events that took place have been recorderd in the annals of the kings, which is a none Biblical reference to what had taken place during the reigns of the different Kings who lived, which confirmes in more detail what is written in the BIBLE. Another none Biblical proof of the authenticity of the Bible are archelogical finds of the RED SEA CROSSING; THE RUINS OF SODOM & GOMORA; THE WALLS OF JERICHO; THE ROCK THE WATER CAME FROM WHEN MOSES STRUCK IT; NOAH’s ARK FOUND; etc, http://wyattmuseum.com/discovering/noahs-ark# All the historical events recorded in the BIBLE, have been found and have been left for furture generations to find. This was to prove that the BIBLE is not just some “man made ancient text”. People have bee trying for years to prove the BIBLE is just some “man made ancient text” however God in His Wisdom proves time and time again, that no matter how “clever” these arguments might sound the contrary will be proven. Even so, just as there are people who believe the earth is flat, no matter how much factual evidence exists. The same applies to the BIBLE, there are people no matter how much factual,scientific and archilogical evidence is presented, will still believe it is just a “man made ancient text”. The message throughout the BIBLE is an example of “Good and Evil” and the stuborness of mankind, it is also an example that mankind cannot and will not be able to fathom the Greatness of God our Creator. I leave you with this thought, NO person has ever seen his own face! They have only seen a reflection in a mirror or a picture!. By using the same argument style of some answers given in this forum, 1)Does this mean that person does not exist? 2) You cannot go on the reflection for who says the mirror was not flawed or the picture photoshoped?3) Who says the person even exists who’s reflection he see’s?,Which part of this is logic, common sense or contradiction? The point is any “cleverly invented argument” can cast doubt, which is the exact way satan has been able to fool mankind.So, it is not for one person to convince another person, it is for each person to convince themselves, by questioning their own belief systems! You see, people can be fooled by half-truths and lies, however these will be revealed when the truth is told. Extract from my blog: http://iamwhoiammessage.blogspot.com
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Brother John
For Copeland Larry (and others if you share his beliefs).....As one of the most credible Christian posters (claiming to have read the entire bible 15 times), I assumed you'd reply to my April 27 post to support your claim that you are unable to find any false writings in the bible.
Here's a summary to encourage your response.....
Why do most people quote Exodus 20, when Exodus 34 claims to be the 10 Commandments (verse 28)? They can't both be right. Which ones are false?
There are over 500 contradictions listed in the link I attached above. I encourage you to verify all of them, but for the sake of brevity, here are 5.
37.. did the flood last 40 days or 150 days? Which answer if false?
49... Can God be seen? Which answer is false, yes or no?
387... How did Judas die? Hanging or fell down? Which is false?
397... What were the last words of Jesus before dying on the cross? Which ones are false?
473... Are we all god's children? Which answer is false, yes or no?
- Is Dr. Ehrman making false claims or speaking the truth?
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Ps.Alex Bosch
- Why do most people quote Exodus 20, when Exodus 34 claims to be the 10 Commandments (verse 28)? They can’t both be right. Which ones are false? None is false, the ten commandments are stated in exodus 20, what God said to Moses is clear Exodus 34v1, ..words that were on the first tablets,so there is no contradiction it refers back to Exodus 20 –The Ten commandments.
- There are over 500 contradictions listed in the link I attached above. I encourage you to verify all of them, but for the sake of brevity, here are 5.
37.. did the flood last 40 days or 150 days? Which answer if false?
The flood lasted 40days and 40 nights, however the world was covered/flooded in water after the floods for 150 days afterwhich it receded. See Gen7v24
49… Can God be seen? Which answer is false, yes or no?
NO, God is light and we cannot look into His face, that is why MOSES was blinded by the sheer brightness of God’s light! Even though He did not look into God’s face.To be in God’s presence does not mean He was seen!
387… How did Judas die? Hanging or fell down? Which is false?What does the prophesy say?... Field of Blood, Acts 1vs18 He fell down & refers to field of blood!None are false for where did he hang himself, is this not where he fell down headlong from?and did he not fall from where he hung and burst open in the same field?
397… What were the last words of Jesus before dying on the cross? Which ones are false?None are False, for In John 19v30 it states Jesus said “It is Finished”, with that he bowed his head and gave up his SPIRIT, which is stated in Luk23v46 where he called out “Father into your hands I commit my SPIRIT”which means his last words were “It is Finished, Father into your hands I commit my Spirit”
473… Are we all god’s children? Which answer is false, yes or no?YES, we are all Created in GOD’s image.
- Is Dr. Ehrman making false claims or speaking the truth?He is making false claims, which confuse the authors with the collating scholars.
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Brother John
Thanks for your response, Alex. As this forum supports a wide range of views and affiliations, vibrant discussion is encouraged. I've pasted you entire response below and have included mine prefaced by *** to keep our discussion orderly.
May 3, 2017 at 2:13 pm 1. Why do most people quote Exodus 20, when Exodus 34 claims to be the 10 Commandments (verse 28)? They can’t both be right. Which ones are false? None is false, the ten commandments are stated in exodus 20, what God said to Moses is clear Exodus 34v1, ..words that were on the first tablets,so there is no contradiction it refers back to Exodus 20 –The Ten commandments.
*** Sorry Alex. A different 10 are listed in Exodus 34 and verse 28 confirms that these are the 10 commandments.. v28 "And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments" This is easy to understand and needs no interpretation. This statement is not made for those in Exodus 20. As these are foundational to Christians, this glaring contradiction substantially weakens the validity of the Bible. God either changed it's mind, forgot what it first wrote, or the whole book is a poorly edited compilation of rehashed myths that were in circulation at the time. I'll go with the last.
.2. There are over 500 contradictions listed in the link I attached above. I encourage you to verify all of them, but for the sake of brevity, here are 5.
37.. did the flood last 40 days or 150 days? Which answer if false?
The flood lasted 40days and 40 nights, however the world was covered/flooded in water after the floods for 150 days afterwhich it receded. See Gen7v24
*** I assume you meant the rain lasted 40 days. This, not 150 days, would be the answer given by many Christians (most of whom haven't read the entire Bible, but simply parrot back the most popular stories). There are a number of sources that say the flood lasted just over a year, making both 40 and 150 wrong. "Belief that the Flood lasted 371 days is common among recent creationists, but there are other possibilities. I argue that the Flood’s duration most likely was 365 days, exactly one year. At any rate, all possibilities for the length of the Flood are about one year, though not necessarily greater than one year. Therefore, I suggest that the best short answer to the question of how long the Flood lasted is “about one year.” Source : answersgenesis.org
49… Can God be seen? Which answer is false, yes or no?
NO, God is light and we cannot look into His face, that is why MOSES was blinded by the sheer brightness of God’s light! Even though He did not look into God’s face.To be in God’s presence does not mean He was seen!
*** "Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved" Genesis 32:30. What's your interpretation of "face to face", Alex? I haven't read all of the many verses about people seeing God, but those I have mentioned nothing about being blinded by God's light.
387… How did Judas die? Hanging or fell down? Which is false?What does the prophesy say?… Field of Blood, Acts 1vs18 He fell down & refers to field of blood!None are false for where did he hang himself, is this not where he fell down headlong from?and did he not fall from where he hung and burst open in the same field?
*** "Matt 27:5 "And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. 27:6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood. 27:7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in. 27:8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day." Looks like it was the "field of blood" because of blood money, not the spilled blood of Judas, doesn't it? Matthew says nothing about bursting open and Acts nothing about hanging. This would probably result in an acquittal had the two answers been presented in a criminal trial.
397… What were the last words of Jesus before dying on the cross? Which ones are false?None are False, for In John 19v30 it states Jesus said “It is Finished”, with that he bowed his head and gave up his SPIRIT, which is stated in Luk23v46 where he called out “Father into your hands I commit my SPIRIT”which means his last words were “It is Finished, Father into your hands I commit my Spirit”
*** If you combine the last words from Luke and John you would have those last words, but they are, in fact, quite different. You forgot Matthew 27:46. "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" "Last words" means death immediately followed them. All three are different.
473… Are we all god’s children? Which answer is false, yes or no?YES, we are all Created in GOD’s image.
*** So that includes the billions of us who aren't "believers", or is there a qualifier that eliminates us? "Ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus". Galatians 3:26
1....God's vicious, malevolent demeanor means some horrible eternal torment for those who choose evidence over faith.
2... No sane, loving, forgiving, benevolent father would kill, torment and eternally damn his children, and certainly not for relatively minor offences.
- Is Dr. Ehrman making false claims or speaking the truth?He is making false claims, which confuse the authors with the collating scholars.
*** See my May 3 post below regarding the authorship of the Gospels. Here are a few excerpts. See the post for the complete quotations and their sources.
"Although we now know them by the names of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, they are all originally anonymous.”
“Even though the Gospels go under the names of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, they were, in fact, written anonymously"
“Mark was not an eyewitness to the events of Jesus’ life."
“Luke was not an eyewitness of the life of Christ. He was a companion of Paul who also was not an eyewitness of Christ’s life.”
"Most scholars have rejected the traditional attributions.”
“Most scholars believe that Mark was written by a second-generation Christian, around or shortly after the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Second Temple in year 70.”
“The first four historical books of the New Testament are supplied with titles (Euangelion kata Matthaion, Euangelion kata Markon, etc.), which, however ancient, do not go back to the respective authors of those sacred writings.”
Are these all "false claims" along with Dr. Ehrmans? I've provided a link to Dr. Ehrman's cirriculum vitae. I looked at your blog profile and there's nothing but "online ministry" with no qualifications, although you did state earlier that... "I had taken the time to watch and read the links you posted, however having studied Ancient Hebrew and Ancient Greek in the 80’s and my Theological studies and Ministry studies, I cannot believe people could “fall” for such “cleverly invented” stories." The smugness in your last sentence indicates that you feel your scholarly knowledge of the Gospels is superior to Dr. Erhman's impressive credentials.
Can you provide your qualifications to clarify whether your responses are scholarly or are you just another online Christian blogger voicing your opinions and faith based beliefs?
http://www.bartdehrman.com/curriculum-vitae/
"All religions, with their gods, their demi-gods, and their prophets, their messiahs and their saints, were created by the prejudiced fancy of men who had not attained the full development and full possession of their faculties."
- Mikhail Bakunin, God and the State
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Cori Allen
You are sooo confused. My child once asked me why the Bible was called God's living word. Unless you seek God with all your heart you will not find him in the scriptures and they will be confusing. Otherwise, as I explained to my daughter, God speaks and reveals new things throughout the years as He knows our maturity has reached a time of understanding. Like peeling back layers of an onion. I am constantly amazed at something more he reveals that I did not see last year or 5 years ago. His spirit revealed different aspects to the different apostles. NO we are not all his children. At times when He is speaking it is too a group that ARE His children. For God so loved the World.... All. The desire of his heart is that NONE should perish (to hell). He died for all and He chose All to be His children but that does not happen unless we choose Him back. Then we become the sons and daughters of God. Jesus died to cover ALL of our sins, again they are not covered if we continue to reject Him. It rained for 40 days and nights. The water did not recede for a lot longer. Satan will continue to confuse all, who like him want to remain to be their own god. You will NEVER understand what you do not want to understand. You will be in AWE of the understanding that comes if you SEEK HIM. Many so called Christians are truly confused regarding the love of God. Much among the comments here. Our job is to love Him and love others. The Holy Spirit draws and convicts to bring about the changes we need to make in our lives. I have loved Him for a long time and He is till working on me.
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Larry Copeland
Remember the sabbath to keep it holy is not in the New Testament ?
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Brother John
This seems at odds with your April 20 post, Rev John..... "As a Christian either you follow the bible (old and new) or not." Based on your belief that the bible is both badly edited and only mildly relevant today, can I assume you don't consider yourself a Christian? I remain bemused that Christians so often refer to the OT, as you did regarding homosexuality, considering it was written for ancient Hebrews, rather than the teachings of their religion's namesake. Can you clarify why you encouraged reading Leviticus, believing the bible is badly edited and not particularly relevant today?
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Rev John
Dear Brother John, I agree and understand that 'The biblical God is portrayed as a maniacal, malevolent monster unworthy of worship and certainly not suited to dispensing moral dictates'. But, that is what it say's. It's only in the last couple of hundred years we are seeing him as nice and cuddly!. Personally, I think the bible is badly edited (I believe the NT was edited and put together in the time of Charlemagne) and mainly relevant to life 1-2000 years ago for people with very limited education who needed hope and control (with the exception of some Greeks, Romans, Taoists, Buddhists etc.) and never had proof of evolution. If it wasn't for the Romans we would never of heard of Jesus! The concept of God as an invisible friend who made 170 billion galaxies (that we can currently detect) but is also concerned about what YOU do on a daily basis is ludicrous to say the least. But if you do not follow the bible by it's words then you either pick 'n' mix out of it (as so many do), make up your own god and belief system, follow another set belief system or be rational and follow logic.
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Larry Copeland
Having read these comments I and having read the Bible from cover to cover 15 times I cannot find any false writings in Gods words. I can only find mans inability to understand Gods words.
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Brother John
Wow Larry! It's surprising that you haven't noticed any contradictions/errors (false writings) after 15 complete readings. This should be a breeze after the months that must have taken.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/number.html
How about the all important 10 commandments? Almost everyone quotes Exodus 20. Surely after all those readings you must have noticed the other/real 10 when you got to Exodus 34. It doesn't take much ability to understand Exodus 34:28.
It's likely that the same zeal and enthusiasm that caused you to read the entire bible 15 times (really?) also blinded you to the fact that it contains many errors and contradictions; that it was written by fallible men, not god; and that there are no extant original manuscripts of the Gospels (the heart of Christianity), only copies, of copies, of copies, with many errors and omissions particularly between the oldest copies.
Dr. Bart Herman is a highly respected NT scholar. Through many decades of dedicated research, Dr. Ehrman probably equalled or surpassed your readings. He also read manuscripts in the original Greek, a skill you may or may not possess.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhM5lbVBgkk
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Ellis L Keyes
If Satan is the Lord of hell or the abode of the dead than believers of the blasphemy are following that because by taking up the cross and following the Antichrist master it will take them out of the world and the kingdom of God, those followers will not be seen or heard from anywhere in creation ever again.
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Rob Devlin
Who here has not grown up and knowing the words - live by example. The words in the Bible were interpretations written down by Man. God did not write the Bible. Jesus Christ, however, did live here on earth and lived a life which others can follow as a true example. The Old Testament was written before Jesus was born. The New Testament was written after he died. The only true examples to follow are those that were made when he was alive. He did not cast aside Mary Magdellon, he did not walk away from Lazarus. What he did do was try to counsel thoae who tried to sit on judgement above others to stop doing so. His teachings were about love and acceptance. Those are true examples to love and love by.
I could criticize all of you who recite the Bible verbatim and ask you to live the life of a True Christian - but that would be against the examples Jesus Christ taught us. I will simply say that we are a part of God's Community and that love and acceptance are what makes that community real.
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Gary
Just Read your BIBLE! It's that simple ?
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S G Henderson
Two factors: 1) King James Bible was Interrupted based on how King James wanted it to say. 2). Jesus died on the cross for all the said sins in the old testaments. Moreover, are you pure from eating shrimp and other anomalies in the Old Testament?
This is the kind of compassion that is good in so many Christians today. Many of which are Trump supporters.
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Larry Copeland
Satan wanted to change Gods word to be acceptable to people and God kicked him out of Heaven you think he want do it to you?
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Larry Copeland
Satan is doing a great job of getting people to do what he wants and change Gods words to suit his false teaching!!!
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Brother John
You're doing a great job of turning people away from Christianity, Larry, with your adolescent behaviour. Are you actually an adult or a child parroting back what you learned in Sunday School? As an atheist, I encourage you to make future comments more extreme and ignorant. They're mildly amusing but will certainly help discourage any prospective Christians who wouldn't want to have thoughts and beliefs like yours.
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Larry Copeland
Very good Satan there is no heaven waiting for you or thinkers like. You lack Faith in GOD??
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Nix
I love to see when faiths actually embrace change and desires to accept everyone. Congratulations to a beautiful couple!
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Faith Pigeon
Thank You: Howie, I agree with you wholeheartedly. To me, being a Christian is trying to be Christ-like. That's what all of us should be Striving for, as follows of Jesus. God Bless
Chaplin: Faith Pigeon
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Francis Whitford
Christianity is based upon the life and teachings of Jesus. What did Jesus say about homosexuality? Nothing. He was more into positive support for everyone. He did not comndemn people for it. So, in an attempt to be a Christian, I guess I won't either.
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Larry Copeland
You need to get a Bible and read it. God said col 2-14 all law and ordinance that was against us Gentiles was nailed to the cross with Jesus. Now because he died for us we have HOPE of eternal life Act 2-32 says except you be born of the water and the Spirit You can not enter the Lingdom of Heaven.. You may be saved but you cannot enter the heavenly Gates.
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Rev John
As a Christian either you follow the bible (old and new) or not. If you do then. Read the old testament - Leviticus. Homosexuality is like so many other things punishable by death. So, either you follow the bible or not and if not what doctrine do you follow then? Ask yourself.
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Brother John
I'm sticking with common sense and knowledge rather than belief without credible evidence, Rev John. The biblical God is portrayed as a maniacal, malevolent monster unworthy of worship and certainly not suited to dispensing moral dictates. As a "follower of the bible", do you advocate the killing of homosexuals, adulterers, blasphemers and disobedient children? How about owning other human beings as property?
Leviticus 25:44-46 – Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Some Christians claim that Biblical slaves are supposed to be released after six years, and therefore Biblical slavery is more just than our modern conception of slavery. This is not the case. The passage in question, Exodus 21:1-4, only refers to freeing Hebrew slaves. Foreign slaves are forever your property, to be passed down to your children (in contrast to Israelite slaves)
Leviticus 20:10 - 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
Leviticus 24:13-16 - "Then the LORD said to Moses: "Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him. Say to the Israelites: 'If anyone curses his God, he will be held responsible; anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death."
How do you feel about women posting here? This is the Universal Life CHURCH. "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." (I Corinthians 14:34-35)
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Shantell Gambrill
It is not for us to judge everything that we do so he would outside let them cast the first stone it's not for me to judge only for God to judge when it's time for them to answer for what they done God said love one another who am I to say what kind of love he chose for someone to give each other to just someone else is wrong we can only judge ourourself so I am saying as long as you go to God and ask for repenting when your time comes he will truly accept that because he died for all your son not just one
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Charlene Outt
It is not our place to approve or disapprove. There are TWO Great Commandments. Love God with all your heart and strength and might and love your neighbor as yourself. Anyone who lives by these commandments and helps to bring others to the love and forgiveness of Christ is blessed to me and on the right track. Please note: We are all sinners, and only man measures some graver than others. I don't believe that we can possibly understand God's judgement, forgiveness or depth of His love. We need to compare ourselves only to Christ, not other human beings.
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Chris Harrison
I don't approve nor disapprove. I believe God will judge us all when the time comes and at that time will the truth be known on several issues. As for leading a congregation, bringing people to Christ and teaching what is Gods word is a blessing to us all (provided we teach the truth!). It is not our power nor is it our suffering to judge others but only to pray we all follow the path God has set out for us. I love everybody, God bless you!
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Melissa Quintanilla
I'm very Happy???for this happening LOVE FOR CHRIST LOVE..
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Ps.Alex Bosch
Understand this, we have no right to judge any person!, the command from God is to "Love your neighbour", NOT "judge your neighbour", however what people need to understand is that we need to Live by the Spirit of God, for if we do not live according to the Spirit of God we cannot stand against the evil powers of darkness!! Ephesians 6 (NIV) 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
Now, one of the biggest lies from these evil forces is to take that which God has created and determined to be before we were born, either male or female, of which you have undisputable physical proof when you look at your own body, whether you are a man or woman, satan has in his cunningness managed to convince people through their futile thinking and foolish hearts to believe that what God our Creator has made them, is a mistake and they are different!. This is where vs Romans 1v20 is very clear on this matter ;20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
When looking at the above, God warns mankind that nobody will have an excuse before God, no matter how much people agree or disagree with their views. In actual fact the views of society, laws, constitutions, regulations or any carnal view does under NO circumstances change what is written in God's Word. God's Word cannot change, does not change and is the ultimate authority and guidance for mankind, no matter whether we believe it or not, we will have no excuse when we stand before God!.
Romans 1 New International Version (NIV)
God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Romans 2New International Version (NIV)
God’s Righteous Judgment
2 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?
5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
Galatians 5 New International Version (NIV)
Life by the Spirit
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b] 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
The Word of GOD warns us about the cunningness of satan and that he has come to kill, steal and destroy and has been a liar from the beginning, thus we must be aware of his schemes and trust God to lead us from temptation, for if we believe the lies we are lost and if we judge we are lost. We need to act in Love toward all and by living out the Word of God, show people the TRUTH found in Jesus Christ and the TRUTH will set them free!
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Brother John
Christian beliefs are anchored by the premise that the Bible is the infallible "word of God", Alex. Using a man made ancient text full of errors and contradictions as the basis for moral conduct in today's world is a curious choice.
“The Bible was created during a time where stories were orally passed down over thousands of years. Stories constantly morphed and changed over time, and the Bible is a collection of these. This is why it has the nearly identical flood story from Gilgamesh, and why Jesus has the same characteristics as Dionysus, Osiris, Horus, Mithra, and Krishna. The contradictions and immorality in the stories are not evidence that God is flawed or evil, but rather that humans invented him, just like the thousands of other gods that we used to but no longer believe in.”
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” ― Voltaire, Questions sur les Miracles à M. Claparede, Professeur de Théologie à Genève, par un Proposant: Ou Extrait de Diverses Lettres de M. de Voltaire
“Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.” ― Isaac Asimov
“We can judge our progress by the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers, our willingness to embrace what is true rather than what feels good.” ― Carl Sagan
“Be sure to lie to your kids about the benevolent, all-seeing Santa Claus. It will prepare them for an adulthood of believing in God.” ― Scott Dikkers, You Are Worthless: Depressing Nuggets of Wisdom Sure to Ruin Your Day
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Luis Fernandez
Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor? - James 4:11-12
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Brother John
Luis asked, "who are you to judge your neighbor"? In this forum, with few exceptions, the answer is intolerant, often bigoted, Christians who believe they have all the answers and feel compelled to judge and slander "non-believers" (including threats of eternal damnation) based on what they believe is the infallible "written word" of their chosen god. I seriously doubt that your admonition will open their minds and hearts as you have done.
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Lin Amendt
There ARE NO teachings in the Bible about LGBT etc, relationships. Read it in the original Hebrew Aramaic interpretation. This church did an awesome thing!
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Faith Pigeon
Lin : You are spot on there. There is nothing in the bible, about LGBT Loving heathy Comment Relationships.
God Bless You.
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Minister V
So many people claiming that "homosexuality is a sin. Says so in the bible."
I find it funny how these people don't have an issue with a Labradoodle-owning, permanent-press shirt-wearing, clean-shaven, tattooed man out at a restaurant eating bacon-wrapped scallops for dinner. But suddenly it's an abomination if the person across the table from him is his husband?
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Nix
Minister V, right on! And thanks for the little chuckle as well!
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Faith Pigeon
Minister V : That was very well said!!!
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Brother John
It's funny, but in a sad and disturbing way, MV. Some people have evolved, open and educated minds. Others choose to continue rooting around in what remains of a collection of ancient writings full of errors and contradictions. Incredibly, many in the later group claim their's to be the one and only Truth.
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Larry Copeland
God created man/woman and this world is his. He made his rules not mans. We live by his rules not ours. You have been given the right to choose if you want to be his or Satans follower, Satan or God who's words do you follow?
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Lin Amendt
"GOD" did not write the bible. PERIOD.
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Rev John
He didn't even edit it!
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Rev. Des
Yes, and it took 12 men to keep Jesus happy not a women!!!!! That is why they were kissing in the woods??????
Also where did the women that Adam and Eve's sons have as wifes come from (there was another land) (oh another mistake that is omited just one of the 5000 othe rmistakes in the Bible)?????
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Larry Copeland
If you are a true Christian you would know that God told Adam/Eve to make more be sides themselves. Also the years between Cain & Ables birth and the beginning of man Adam/Eve lived thousands of years making baby's and no pain there's a lot you don't know about Gods word but you sure know how to Say what Satan wants you to
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Larry Copeland
You need to read Genesis again, note that there were many/ many years between. His getting married and Adam /Eve had lots of baby's by Gods will not your lack of understanding his word.
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Brother John
It's stunning how many people continue to claim that the bible is the "word of god" rather than just another re-hashing of ancient mythology. The linked essay focuses on two areas.... the striking similarities between the Genesis flood story and the Epic of Gilgamesh, written hundreds of years beforehand, and the attributes of Jesus, borrowed from other mythical characters. This, no doubt, done to recruit those already believing similar myths to the "one and only Truth".
"The Bible was created during a time where stories were orally passed down over thousands of years. Stories constantly morphed and changed over time, and the Bible is a collection of these. This is why it has the nearly identical flood story from Gilgamesh, and why Jesus has the same characteristics as Dionysus, Osiris, Horus, Mithra, and Krishna. The contradictions and immorality in the stories are not evidence that God is flawed or evil, but rather that humans invented him, just like the thousands of other gods that we used to but no longer believe in."
https://danielmiessler.com/blog/the-bible-is-fiction-a-collection-of-evidence/
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Larry Copeland
Very good Satan what did your superior knowledge get you from GOD . A BBQ bath for eternity ???
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Carol W Waldenburg
Larry, clearly you are operating under the Law and not honoring the gift of Christ's sacrifice.
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Rev. Dee Arianne Rockwood
One of the many reasons I left the Cumberland Presbyterian Ministry and became part of the ULC is to have the freedom in the pulpit to promote social change and officiate such weddings-to care for our fringe citizens.
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Earl Farrell
This isn't a question of changing God's word. It is a question of what does Jesus have to say about these things. This "burning in hell" stuff is like thinking that killing a goat will make things better. It's not up to us to determine who God's children may or may not be. That question has been answered by the New Testament.
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Patty Wilkes
As a minister, I will be officiating at a lesbian marriage ceremony. I havew been asked to write the vows and provide the words for the ceremony. I need help.
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Judy
Hi, Patty. You would be honoring God's Words by declining to perform the ceremony. That's like condoning sin and somehow adding a blessing to it. That "blessing" would not be from God and I think that in your heart of hearts you know that. Your blessing will be in declining. God bless you with the right decision.
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Rob Devlin
Patty,
People are people and true love is true love. If the commitment to marriage and all it entails is there and real - why should what is said be so different? It will still be for rich or poor, better or worse, in sickness and in health. But more importantly. If you truly have two people who are willing to stand before God, as publicly witnessed here on earth by their family and friends, to declare their love and commitment to be together until they part in death - I think that is a pretty darn good thing.
Too many focus on the sex, not the people or the love. Good people are good people - and good exists in every walk of life.
....and so does Bad. Checking all the right boxes only means one thing: You know how to check a box :).
Good luck. Just do it with love.
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Emerson
THE BIBLE WAS BADLY TRANSLATED. FROM GREEK . IT MEANT MAN SHALL NOT LIE WITH BOY MEANING PAEDOPHILIA NOT HOMOSEXUALITY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !
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David Hawkins
Emerson it was written in a very patriarchal society. Which meant women had very little rights or say. That is not the only place it condemns it. Do not forget Soddam and Gamorrah being destroy for their sinful ways including homosexuality. You do not have to believe it, but at least look at all of it not just one little verse.
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Faith Pigeon
Emerson: When we reading the Bible, we must take a look at. When it was written, the Culture in which it was written in. And frankly who wrote it. I agree with you, wholeheartedly. We need to do our very Best, at following the example. That Jesus Christ came here to show us.How to Love one another. Thank You for your Post.
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Larry Copeland
Just as you change words and sentences you don't like in your own mind does not give you the right to change Gods. God says those that do will join Satan in Hell. That's their reward for not believing Gods writings without changing them.
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John Matthews
Larry, so judgmental, oh my, my. So, you are a proponent of those who believe that a man who divorces his wife for anything but adultery is committing sin if he marries again, knowing that even Jesus himself condemned divorce? Where is your judgmental position on this? Most Christian men believe that a wife should forgive her husband for such an offense, as stated in Scripture. I wonder if the Christian women feel the same?
I'm sorry. Life is different now and when Jesus fulfilled the law, the law was changed forever. That's why we eat pork, shellfish, wear mixed material clothing, and don't stone adulterers (divorced and remarried persons) in the secular United States. The stiff-necked are on their way out as is mainstream Christianity because of archaic interpretations of Scripture. Remember Jesus manifests Himself to us in many different guises - the Holy Spirit, through Scripture, through sinners, through LGBT persons and even our pets. I highly doubt that Jesus would be as judgmental as you.
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Nix
Great points Jon. So many people who claim to be "Christian" are so quick to condemn and judge. I don't think they are headed where they think they are headed by contracting the words of Jesus they claim to love and follow. That is not to say all Christians are like that by any means as we see by this article.
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Larry Copeland
Satan did what you want to do to Gods word , what did God do to him? He will do it to all who change his word to suit them!!!!
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Brother John
You make some good points, Jon, but Jesus wasn't a supporter of traditional marriage or family values. Quite to the contrary.
"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life". Matthew 19:29, Mark 10:29-30, Luke 18:29-30 Jesus is clearly promising huge rewards (a hundredfold) for abandoning wives, children and family. I wonder if any Deadbeat Dads have used this passage as a defence in family court?
"They which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage." Luke 20:35 Avoid the whole abandonment issue and skip marriage altogether. Perhaps Heaven is a single's only club.
19“Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked him. “Only God is truly good. Luke 18:19 Yet another indication that God and Jesus are not the same entity.
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Steve Ray
One cannot believe all of gods' word without changing and interpreting, there are too many contradictions.
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jeremy cloward
Im sure you understand that the book of Leviticus is not inspired scripture from god. It was not written by Moses, but by a fanatical bunch of zelots trying to instill a Xenophobic jewish government by inventing all of those laws. It was written roughly in the late 500s BCE. Knowing that, why don’t you just toss Leviticus out the window, it serves little value for human understanding, and bringing one closer to god. In fact, toss 90% of the Books of Moses, as he did not write them, only a few select chapters in Exodus… I fear that most people who justify using the bible in their mistreatment of others, do so by cherry picking what they like and dont like. If people were to actually know the truth ABOUT the bible, before they tried to unload the truth FROM the bible, the world would be a much more educated, and tolerant place. I would suggest that you go learn a few things about the bible, its history, (of the book itself) the authorship, and the full understanding of what was going on when something was said, or written. Without that, you look very foolish, and ignorant. (If I had said what you just did, I would be sorely embarrassed. ) (stated in another part of this thread).
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Sam
The bible was written an interpreted by men. People do choose in it to suit their needs and ignor others. Because sexuality is so intimate and petsonelle. People who seem to have the most difficulty, seem to be those who struggle with sex and intimacy. They use the bible as their excuse to hate. Even the bible has evolved, but people still get stuck on this. As we evelve and become more loving and excepting of ourselves and others, gods love only grows stronger. Those who say it is written in the bible are hypocrites. It's so wonderful to see the lesbians at the pulpit. God loves everyone.
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Rob Devlin
Very well said, Sam.
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Larry Copeland
According to Gods own writings he says "no sinners will enter the kingdom of Heaven" He says they are Sinners. Read Gods words and you come to the same conclusion as God!!
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Brother John
Really, CL? Most Bibles say Jesus died for our sins and we are forgiven. Sally and Maria are both believers and Pastors. Without knowing a thing about you, I'll guess that you're also a sinner by biblical standards. As believers, are the three of you forgiven or not?
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Carol W Waldenburg
Preach it, Brother John!
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Paul R Walsh
We don't have the right to say who is and who isn't fit to give out the word of GOD based on their sexual orientation I think that this is a great step forward.
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Gary
The Bible is the lords word ! We can't pick or choose what suits are needs IT IS WHAT IT IS the lords word. Homosexuality is a sin. This is what i believe.I believe in the LORD and i trust in the LORD and his word .
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Steve Ray
Jesus did not address homosexuality, the apostles did... it's called cristianity, not apostle-anity
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Carol W Waldenburg
Te-he! I like it!!
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Brother John
Gary says, "We can’t pick or choose what suits are needs...." Maybe you're new to this forum, Gary. It happens all the time along with the obvious nonsense that the Bible is "the lords word".
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Ellis L Keyes
With a belief system based on fraud anything is possible. The Rectory is a place for anal sex, the Seminary is a circle of Monks masturbating into a bowl for the Priest to drink and it is obvious what the Lay Ministry is for. That is the thing with a God seperate for nature, a supernatural being seperate from reality. But of course we always have the Common Good with us , all pervasive in Nature so the perversions of AntiChrist Christianity are temporal.
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David Hawkins
Ellis I do not know what Seminary you were in or think you have knowledge of, but your statement shows your ignorance.
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Nix
Yes it does!
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Ellis L Keyes
Thank you David. All things are possible that are possible. If you meditate seeking truth you will find it is always self evident. Have you considered the the Bible is full of fraud and that Jesus is the Antichrist? Of course the truth cannot be suppressed and it is in the Bible too. Pay attention and see how all things work together.
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Pastor Kim
Wow, how would you like to be judged the way you are judging? Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass pass against us.
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Larry Copeland
You are a follower of Satan. God has already told you're going to burn in Hell enjoy the fire dude!!
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Larry Copeland
No man or woman has the right or authority from God to change his word those who God says will burn in hell! God says so in his word not mans.
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Pastor Kim
God also has said that he will judge not you. Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. God will judge you the same way that you judge everyone else. It's not our place to judge. The person without sin may cast the first stone.
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Larry Copeland
God says we will be judged by his laws not ours based own how we obey his laws not ours!!!
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flugo
Kim: You don't know your Bible! Jesus TOLD us to judge rightly in John 7:24. And in Luke l7:3 He told us to rebuke the errant. He expects us to be judgmental, discerning of attitudes, behavior and sin. Your comment is in error!
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jeremy cloward
Bob, do you know your bible? I mean, to quote Luke like that... I do wonder. Luke was written erd hand, by a man who was NEVER THERE, Luke never met Christ, only heard the stories from people had been there, passed down, many many years after the events happened. The same with John. However, the only mentions against homosexuality in the new testament was Christ referring to King Herod as a "Fox" a term used for a flamboyant gluttonous possible bisexual. The rest was from Paul in Romans, etc. Again, to consider those citations as accurate is risky, and you are putting yourself on very thin ice to base any real argument on the gospels. If you want to base your arguments against homosexuality from the scriptures from leviticus, then Im afraid you are on even worse footings. I have posted in this thread the issues with leviticus, but Ill share the bit with you here, IT IS NOT OF GOD AND WAS NOT WRITTEN BY MOSES. Take all but the 16 Chapters he did write in Exodus, and toss the entire first five books of the bible into the fire. If you take leviticus as scripture, or Deuteronomy, Numbers, whatever, you are quoting pseudopygriphal works, written by zealots, trying to create scriptures for their nation to follow. None of it came from god. Good luck standing with those arguments friend, you will do nothing to please god, only make others lives difficult, as a Pharisee.
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Bud
Larry I'm glad that at least someone on this site speaks the absolute truth! Bravo!!!
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PKaz
The Bible is a collection of writings and certainly not the complete collection. There are so many writings not included. Written and rewritten. Chosen and filtered. They are the writings of men and woman and what they perceived and experienced upon their interpretation of the teachings they received from God. The New Testament is a collection of writings inspired but God Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Working together in love and to save mankind while not taking man or woman’s gift of Freewill. That is the only thing you have to barter your way into Heaven. Knowing no man or woman or anything we do or did or can do will save us except love. Love one another... Sodom and Gramorah Was destroyed because of lust. There was no love there. They lusted after one another raping and taking what they wanted. It had nothing to do with love. Whether it was animals or other men it was hate, meaningless. Forsaking women because it was Gods way. The angels offered. If they were unsavable God would not have sent angels to save whoever they could. Their Freewill was tested. Love was forsaken. The Bible also stated tha David loved Jonathan more than he loved himself. Don’t be so obsessed with what goes on between to consenting adults and who are you to say whether they love or not. Don’t try to say that every time you slept with another I was love. I bet lust has entered a heart or two in the laying with another man or woman. I don’t judge. I won’t. It is not my job. I choose love. It can change the world. All this judgmental bullshit only says your heart is hardened and that you don’t see the good or God in people. No one should go past the door of a private room and what two people in love are doing in that room. God is there if love is. He certainly doesn’t need an audience of scoffers ruining the moment. Not in life or in Spirit. Reminds me of Jesus and the Pharisees. Gosipp and hate. Keep in mind Peter denied Christ three times. He knew that he would and told him so. God knows. He is not looking for hall monitors. He’s looking for ushers and apostles.
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Roy L. Patterson
The teaching of the Christian Bible says Homosexuality is a sin. I don't agree with this church letting Lesbians or Gays becoming ministers.
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Rev. Des
No it says a man shall not lay with another man has he would a women, will we all know that is is an impossiblity!!! I am happy to know that your perfact (tho. I learn only God is perface) and we all know that the bible has more than 5000 record mistakes in it. I advoice to think like a Christian and not as a closed minded person. Only God should judge!!!!
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David Hawkins
Rev. Des I would think you know better than to judge but here you are and not even doing a good job at that. Learn to spell. The Bible shows the wrath of God on Soddam and Gamorrah , for their iniquities. Homosexuality was one of them. Like it says in the later days there will be false prophets ( which homosexuals male/female as ministers might be ). One must turn away from sinful things lest they die.
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Marie
The Soddom and Gamorrah verses are dealing with hospitality, not homosexuality. The true meaning of some verses of the bible, well lots of verses in the bible, are left to interpretation. But some are quite clear. I would like to think since Homosexuality has been around even since biblical times, that God would have given Moses 11 commandments and not 10. He must have ran out of stone! He likes even numbers?
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Bud
rev des or dish? you're an idiot :)
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flugo
"Rev' Des: You don't know your Bible!
Jesus instructed us to judge rightly in John 7:24; and to rebuke the errant in 17:3. We are to be discerning about one's attitudes, actions, and practices.
Jesus did! In Matthew 7:6,15-15 and 23:23 He judged people's behavior, as we ,too, are. to do.
Your 'Only God should judge!' is gross error!
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Steve Ray
Then don't go there
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jeremy cloward
Im sure you understand that the book of Leviticus is not inspired scripture from god. It was not written by Moses, but by a fanatical bunch of zelots trying to instill a Xenophobic jewish government by inventing all of those laws. It was written roughly in the late 500s BCE. Knowing that, why don’t you just toss Leviticus out the window, it serves little value for human understanding, and bringing one closer to god. In fact, toss 90% of the Books of Moses, as he did not write them, only a few select chapters in Exodus… I fear that most people who justify using the bible in their mistreatment of others, do so by cherry picking what they like and dont like. If people were to actually know the truth ABOUT the bible, before they tried to unload the truth FROM the bible, the world would be a much more educated, and tolerant place. I would suggest that you go learn a few things about the bible, its history, (of the book itself) the authorship, and the full understanding of what was going on when something was said, or written. Without that, you look very foolish, and ignorant. (If I had said what you just did, I would be sorely embarrassed. ) (stated in another part of this thread).
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Robert
if you believe what the bible says it does say homosexuality is wrong and since i would not attend such a church in the first place hope they reap what they sow!
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Bud
They will Rev. Rob :) The wages of sin is death
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Roy L. Patterson
Agree 100%****
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Francisco
That's totally wonderful‼️ I approve it.
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Jeri
We all take the same breathes and lift our eyes up to the heavens. Aren't our bodies just a vehicle for our spirit?
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michellebeaman
beautiful
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Bud
especially the blond but the brunette ain't bad either :)
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Judy
Yes...God breathed HIS breath in us to give us life. Let's honor the life he gave us by living a life that honors his guidance and principles that the Bible gives us. Our earthly body is carnal and wants all things carnal. Once we say, "Lord, I'm a sinner and I repent and ask you to come into my life", we become a new creature in Christ and old things are passed away. In Jesus' name. Amen (so be it)
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Bud
Remember that when God asks you on judgement day what the heck you were doing in His pulpit. Women can't be pastors :)
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Carol W Waldenburg
Bull. Phoebe was referred to as a leader in the church with the same authority "diakonos" as male leaders. Romans 16:1-2
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Miranda Allison Young
I think this is wonderful. I am a lesbian and I am very glad to know that there are churchs which support the LBGT community. I hope there will be many more churchs that do this.
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Robert L. Wichmann
Absolutely, it doesn't make any difference what your orientation is people are people regardless. If someone or someones are "called" to some "profession" it shouldn't reflect negatively on their lives. If an atheist wants to be a minister of some congregation and the congregants agree then it should be so.
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Rev. Dr. John M Olsen III
How can a gay couple preach the word of God when God's word specifically denounces gay behavior? Leviticus 18:22
Surely this would be looked upon as contradictory, causing great confusion in a congregation.
Shall they excuse their behavior by saying "Do as I say, not as I do."? I think not.
We first must practice the Word of God before we can preach it.
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Pastor. Jason Solak
I have to disagree with your statement. You're quoting the Old Testament and not the finished workings of the cross which forgives all sins present,past and future. Also, it isn't anyone's right to judge but the LORDS. We are saved by faith and grace plus nothing. Ephesians chapter 2 verse eight. Our ascended Lord since the beginning of time knew that these same sex pastors were going to create this church. I fully support them and may God bless them.
Being gay or same sex isn't a sin. We need to have faith and love each other. Also, if it was a sin in afore time the finished working of the cross has made it non affect.
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Nix
Very well said, Pastor Jason. God is love and His son always taught love and compassion. Realizing that and joining hands with others is the true way to live and find eternal salvation.
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Bud
Jason you're an idiot and don't know you're Bible :) I guess that's expected when you get your ordination from a crackerjack box. You may consider reading all of the Bible?
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flugo
How can you call yourself a 'pastor', Solak? You distort/ignore the Scriptures to your own shame and peril.."
" . . . . it isn't anyone's right to judge but the LORDS". is a FALSE statement of yours.
Jesus tells us to judge rightly in John 7:24. And in Luke 17:3 He tells us to rebuke the sinner, (which requires prerequisite evaluation (judgment) It goes without saying that we are to be perceptive, discerning, and judgmental when it come to behavior and attitudes.
It's disappointing when people call themselves a 'pastor' and misuse/abuse the Scriptures.
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Pastor Tina Fessler
Amen! Very well put.
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Larry Copeland
God says it’s a sin yes you can be forgiven but if you do the sin again Gods word is plain your a sinner again and God will use your sin to send you to Hell.
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Hoggdogg
JOSAN SOLAK I wont call you a pastor because of your faith maybe you should read the old testament and the new testament or you Just read the whole the bible and left the parts out about a man or women lays down as as marriage so what you saying jesus is words are wrong if you want too be gay ok well they will have to answer to jesus that they will be put in hell or you dont believe in hell
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Larry Copeland
Satan is doing a good job of getting you into hell You are 100/, against God s teachings. Satan does you like he did Eve and Adam?
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Pablo
What kind of Pastor are you?..You must be sick in the mind..so we must preach some parts of the Bible and discard some parts. Also you misinterpret the reason for Jesus dying on the cross. The bible speaks exactly about your kinds of people in the last days.
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Brother John
I've checked a number of translations of Leviticus 18:22, Dr. John, and they're all similar to this...."'Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable. Looks like these ladies are in the clear, unless you also believe 1 Corinthians 14:34 applies. "Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says." Ahhhhh, the wisdom of the Good Book.
Speaking of biblical contradictions, you do realize that the bible is riddled with them, don't you? Write down the answers to these simple questions, then check your answers against scripture... Although there are many to choose from, let's focus on the namesake of Christianity...
Who carried Jesus' cross to his crucifiction? What were the last words of Jesus on the cross? Who were the first visitors to to Jesus' tomb? Is Jesus the same as God?
Here's a link to the answers (feel free to search "bible contradictions" for more). No wonder there's confusion amongst congregants. Which of the contradictory answers did you choose?
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/page/bible-contradictions
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Ernie Yarbrough
I believe, that the key to this quandry, lies in what is being taught in this church. Obviously, a church teaching from a book other than the Bible would not need to care about such matters. But, if this church IS attempting to teach from the Bible, AND the Bible has a problem with something, then that contradiction must be addressed. However, the main point of the Bible seems to be that God is Love, so if they truly love each other and love their congregation, then who are we to judge them...
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Bud
wrong ernie :) the main point of the Bible is obedience to God.
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Bud
brother john you're an idiot :)
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Marie
Bud really do we have to resort to name calling. That is ridiculous, if you want to hold intelligent conversation about the bible, be considerate of other's opinions and if you disagree then give your reasons. That indeed is not a What would Jesus do? moment.
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Carol W Waldenburg
Bud you're still operating under the Law and Christ freed us from that . . .
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jeremy cloward
Im sure you understand that the book of Leviticus is not inspired scripture from god. It was not written by Moses, but by a fanatical bunch of zelots trying to instill a Xenophobic jewish government by inventing all of those laws. It was written roughly in the late 500s BCE. Knowing that, why don't you just toss Leviticus out the window, it serves little value for human understanding, and bringing one closer to god. In fact, toss 90% of the Books of Moses, as he did not write them, only a few select chapters in Exodus... (If I had said what you just did, I would be sorely embarrassed. )
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Carol W Waldenburg
Thank you for your scholarly input instead of bigoted rhetoric. Also important in this book is the fact that God did not want the ancient Israelites to act in any way like the other people around them in society especially regarding sexual practices and the practice of pederasty which is probably what is meant by what is now translated as homosexuality.
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flugo
Right on, Olsen!
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Roy L. Patterson
Agree 100% homosexuality is a sin in God's eyes. I don't need the Bible to tell me that. Too many churches are lowering there standards to get more people to attend by just telling then what they want to hear instead of what they need to hear
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flugo
Right on, Roy!
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Rev. John D. Partin
"Rev. Dr." John M. Olsen III, if you and other homophobes aren't obeying the other prohibitions in Leviticus against wearing wool and linen together, eating shellfish, and avoiding all other abominations in the Bible, you shouldn't be picking and choosing only homosexuality to condemn. Gay couples have as much right to be ministers of the Gospel as the rest of you do, who also aren't following all of the Bible. Let him who is without sin among you cast the first stone.
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Bud
it's a "calling" not a profession genius :)
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Karen
Indeed it is a calling and we are not here to judge but to follow Jesus and practice the word.
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Bud
You would :)
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What does God say to Christians? The Old Testament was nailed to the cross with Jesus.Mt 1 to Revalation22 is the rule book for Christians..God said that settles it!! Satan has people fooled to think what they say is ok with God