A same-sex couple in Pennsylvania was shocked when they opened a package that was supposed to contain programs they had ordered for their upcoming wedding. Instead, Stephen Heasley and Andrew Borg were treated to roughly 80 copies of a pamphlet titled "Understanding Temptation" that was filled with hateful anti-gay messages.
The couple had custom-ordered these wedding programs online from printing company VistaPrint:
But when they unboxed their order the night before the wedding, they were met with this:
Among other targeted messages, the pamphlets claimed gay relationships were equivalent to a temptation from Satan. "Satan entices your flesh with evil desires and sin is the result of your failure to resist the temptation. It is an act of rebellion against God's holiness," they read.
Return to Sender
It's unclear exactly how the intended order was replaced with homophobic pamphlets, although some reports speculate it was a rogue employee with anti-gay beliefs who made the decision after noticing the wedding program contained two grooms.
The furious couple has filed a lawsuit against VistaPrint, claiming the company could have done more to prevent something like this from happening. "The pamphlets were plainly sent to threaten and attack Mr. Heasley and Mr. Borg because they are gay" says the couple's lawyer.
The Show Must Go On
Without time to make another order, the couple had to rush to print out the programs themselves before the ceremony. But with the jarring experience fresh in their minds, it cast a shadow over their special day. They couple even feared for their safety, as Heasley explained to reporters:
"We realized that whoever had sent this had our personal addresses. We were getting married on a family farm in what we understand to be a fairly conservative and rural part of Pennsylvania. If ill-intentioned people decided to target our wedding and guests, we would have very few options to escape or seek shelter."
Massive Mistake
After learning about the incident, VistaPrint apologized profusely for their mistake, insisting they've always supported the LGBT community wholeheartedly. They promised to get to the bottom of it, and announced an internal investigation to figure out how and why the pamphlets were sent. The investigation is still ongoing, so the couple will likely have to wait to get answers.
A Questionable Strategy
Regardless of who sent the pamphlets, it's interesting to consider the motivations behind it. What was the sender hoping to accomplish? Did they really think by sending anti-gay messages in lieu of wedding programs that the couple would see the error of their ways and call off the wedding? That seems a bit of a stretch. Unfortunately, they did succeed in injecting anxiety into what was intended to be an uplifting and joyous affair.
In our estimation, trying to sabotage the couple's wedding says a lot more about the sender than it does about the supposed "sinners."
193 comments
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John Owens
I hate to think the printers would have done such a thing knowingly. Seems very doubtful to me. I know it may not sound sympathetic, but I rather imagine it is another false flag operation to keep sympathy and anger flowing. Perhaps a gay or homophile employee of Vista Print wanted to hurt Vista Print and get some more publicity for the movement, while giving the couple a really good chance to sue and get a decent settlement. Based on past operations, the couple may have even been involved in setting it up. Just too soon to tell.
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katy wall
Please explain which "past operations" have led you to believe this conspiracy of yours.
I defer to the side of "Occam's Razor". The most simple explanation is usually the correct one.
Your conspiracy theory definitely does not fit that.
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John Owens
William, you and Ramona act as though you don't think conspiracies exist. Ever heard of RICO? Conspiracies ABOUND. The word only means that people got together and made a plan to do something without telling the world. You don't think the DNC CONSPIRED to give the nomination to HRC? You should both think before you dismiss. To me, the most OBVIOUS answer is the theory I have postulated. It is NOT at all likely that the company doing the printing is trying to convert or "save" the gay men, nor that they want to lose all their business due to bad publicity. Statistically, people who are pessimistic (you can read 'paranoid' if it makes you feel superior) are more likely to accurately assess things than those who think optimistically. I know what you are going to say--" give us peer -reviewed scientific articles on that," to which my answer is, "Google it, research it yourselves." If you knew as much as you think you do, you'd already know it, and I don't get paid to re-educate you.
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JASON D BENDER
John, if you do not get the different meaning of conspiracy as it is used between "Conspiracy theories" and criminal conspiracy then not only don't you know as much as you think you do, you are a damn idiot. Ditto for paranoid and pessimistic. Your argument is specious, and the research to which you refer is quite outdated and has been thoroughly nd repeatedly debunked. Google it. Apparently you do not get paid to educate yourself, either.
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JASON D BENDER
Here is some peer reviewed studies that disprove your point re:optimism vs. pessimism, dumbass:
Beck, A.T. (1967). Depression: Clinical, experimental and theoretical aspects. New York: Hoeber.
Bromberger JT, Matthews KA. (1996). A longitudinal study of the effects of pessimism, trait anxiety, and life stress on depressive symptoms in middle-aged women. Psychology & Aging, 11, 001–007.
Buchanan, G. M., & Seligman, M. E. P. (Eds.). (1995). Explanatory style. Hillsdale, NJ: Erlbaum
Carver, C. S., & Gaines, J. G. (1987). Optimism, pessimism, and postpartum depression. Cognitive Therapy and Research, 11, 449-462.
Chang, E. C. (1998a). Dispositional optimism and primary and secondary appraisal of a stressor: Controlling for confounding influences and relations to coping and psychological and physical adjustment. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 74, 1109-1120.
Chang, E. C. (1998b). Distinguishing between optimism and pessimism: A second look at the “optimism-neuroticism hypothesis.” In R. R. Hoffman, M. F. Sherrik, & J. S. Warm (Eds.), Viewing psychology as a whole: The integrative science of William N. Dember (pp. 415-432). Washington, DC: American Psychological Association.
Chang, E. C., Maydeu-Olivares, A., & D’Zurilla, T. J. (1997). Optimism and pessimism as partially independent constructs: Relations to positive and negative affectivity and psychological well-being. Personality and Individual Differences, 23, 433-440.
Ellis, A., & Harper, R. A. (1975).A new guide to rational living. North Hollywood, California: Wilshire Books.
Gillham, J. E., Reivich, K. J., Jaycox, L. H., & Seligman, M. E. P. (1995). Prevention of depressive symptoms in school children: Two-year follow-up. Psychological Science, 6, 343-351.
Peterson, C. (2006). A Primer In Positive Psychology. New York: Oxford University Press.
Reed, G. M., Kemeny, M. E., Taylor, S. E., Wang, H. Y. J., & Visscher, B. R. (1994). Realistic acceptance as predictor of decreased survival time in gay men with AIDS. Health Psychology, 13, 299-307.
Robins, R. W., & John, O. P. (1997). The quest for self-insight: Theory and research on accuracy and bias in self perception. In R. Hogan, J. Johnson, & S. Briggs, Handbook of personality psychology (pp. 649-679). New York: Academic Press.
Scheier, M. F., & Carver, C. S. (1992). Effects of optimism on psychological and physical well-being: Theoretical overview and empirical update. Cognitive Therapy and Research, 16, 201-228.
Scheier, M.F., Carver, C.S., & Bridges, M.W. (2001). Optimism, pessimism, and psychological well-being. In E.C. Chang (ed.), Optimism and pessimism: Implications for theory, research, and practice (pp. 189-216). Washington, DC: American Psychological Association.
Schofield, P., Ball, D., Smith, J. G., Borland, R., O’Brien, P., Davis, S., et al. (2004). Optimism and survival in lung carcinoma patients. Cancer, 100, 1276-1282.
Seligman, M. E. P. (1990). Learned Optimism. New York: Simon & Schuster, Inc
Segerstrom, Suzanne C. (2006). Breaking Murphy’s Law. New York: The Guildford Press.
Taylor, S. E. (1989). Positive Illusions :creative self-deception and the healthy mind. New York: Basic Books.
Tiger, L. (1979). Optimism: the biology of hope. New York, Simon & Schuster, Inc. Tomakowsky, J., Lumley, M. A., Markowitz, N., & Frank, C. (2001). Optimistic explanatory style and dispositional optimism in HIV-infected men. Journal of Psychosomatic Research, 51, 577-587.
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Reverand Vic
Repent ye Sinners !
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John Owens
BULLSHIT TO ALL THAT. If you had a job, you wouldn't have time to copy and paste all that shit. You can find fake science to state anything you want.
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Linda
John, I'm curious what reasoning makes a pessimistic view more accurate than an optimistic one? Innocent until proven guilty seems to be the more accepted approach in civilized societies. Just wondering...
Update: Vista Print's investigation found that the two orders, wedding and anti-gay pamphlets, were done simultaneously and then mistakenly mislabeled. Vista Print has made amends with the LGBTQ community. See more here: http://www.towleroad.com/2018/02/vistaprint-lgbtq/
In this case.... those that sided with the gay couple were correct. Even so, it was a mistake and unintentional.
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biblical scholar
Alex Jones, is that you?
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Chuck
Say all you want about Alex Jones. Ive been following him since the late 90's and he has turned out to be correct at least 90% of the time.
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biblical scholar
I am shocked.
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JASON D BENDER
I am amused, skeptical and nauseated.
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Linda
Chuck, I have to admit, the basis for Alex Jones' immense popularity is baffling to me. However, my son really likes him too, and I am shocked at the high profile guests he has on his show, such as Jessie Ventura. Lots of other very prominent people have been on and / or called the show also. I think Alex Jones goes overboard on the conspiracy theories but maybe we need that to balance all of us that can't imagine anything like that happening... then find out "some" of his ideas have "some" basis. I think he would be more credible if he were more balanced. But who am I to judge when the guy came from very humble beginnings and created an enormous fan base? Amazing.
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Reverand Vic
The Lake of fire will be full of gay couples !
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Chuck
I got introduced to Alex Jones while stationed in Texas in 1996, where Jones is from. Back then he only had a cheap one hour cable access show on local TV. What turned my interest to him was an Air Force memo that went around instructing Airmen NOT to listen to him.....that peaked my interest, because whenever the military says something like that, THAT is the guy you wanna listen to.
Since 1996, I have watched his information turn out to be correct over and over and over and OVER again! Far more accurate than any mainstream journalist. In other words, whatever you think of his personality, statistics talk & BS walks.
Jesse Ventura is very low on the totem pole of who he speaks with. He has on politicians (including Trump), He speaks to military, heads of intelligence, leaders of foreign countries, you name it.
Last night he had on the former head of CIA Technical Intelligence about how the Clintons and all their cronies are about to go bye-bye for a long time, due to their false FISA warrant to spy on Trump.
Do you really think people like this would speak to some fringe nut job??.......Me thinks not.
Incidentally, on any given day he has more viewers/listeners than ANY news host in America.
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Carl Elfstrom
Reverend Vic should go to Fire Island on his way to fire lake. I'm sure they'll give him an extra special welcome.
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Carl Elfstrom
You see Reverend Vic, what happens after death hasn't happened yet. All we ever have is right now, this present moment. You and others like you who condemn others are only bringing condemnation upon yourselvelves. Believe it or not, what goes around comes around, and you will experience hell right here in this dimension, because of it.
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JASON D BENDER
re: " how the Clintons and all their cronies are about to go bye-bye for a long time, due to their false FISA warrant to spy on Trump." Fool, the clintons had nothing to do with the FISA warrant and the warrant was to spy on the russian agents and ambassador that the Trump campaign was in contact with and the lied about... Not Trump! DOOH!
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Chuck
Wrong....they used a fake dossier to try to obtain a FISA warrant in order to spy on Trump Tower, using the premise he was colluding with Russians.
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JASON D BENDER
Alex Jones is far from #1, https://www.similarweb.com/website/infowars.com#overview , HE IS NOT EVEN IN THE TOP 100! His website is the 740th most popular news and information site in the US.
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Chuck
You don't take into account he is listened to WORLDWIDE. Jackasses on CNN, MSNBC, etc are not
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JASON D BENDER
RE: the NSA official AJ interviewed... The guy is now 74, he resigned 7 years ago - and is a nutjob: http://financialsurvivalnetwork.com/2014/09/aw-crap-binney-destroys-his-own-credibility/
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Chuck
Kerry Lutz???....Really!...LOL. No, youre right. A 30 year NSA guy wouldn't know anything about anything.
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JASON D BENDER
You are a fool. The Clintons had nothing to do with this - they are no longer gov officials. the NSA dude retired 17 years ago - he knows nothing about current issues. The dossier is not fake. No one spied on Trump tower.
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Chuck
No man, YOU and every other mouth breather Liberal who wouldn't believe something, even if it was dropped on them from the sky because you are legit cult level brainwashed are the FOOLS. Someone who works for one of the agencies NEVER loses his ties or networking, no matter how long they are retired. The Fusion GPS Firm paid a few journalists to invent it, which is why the House Intelligence Committee wants the bank records of Fusion GPS.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/nov/24/fusion-gps-russian-dossier-firm-paid-journalists-w/
The Clintons are the biggest political criminals in US history! And when this goes down, it will not only make Watergate look like an innocent high school prank, it will expose a floodgate of corruption starting with the Obama administration, and stretching backwards many years.
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Linda
John, you're probably right about it being an employee of Vista Print, but I don't think they tried to manipulate the events to elicit the publicity. Gay people are often discriminated upon and usually say nothing, except to close friends. Let's hope this backfires on the perpetrator of this hurtful event, they are discovered and publicly humiliated, and maybe jail time too.
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John Owens
I DO hope it backfires, regardless of who did it. The act was horrible and cruel (if it was not a conspiracy to win a large settlement), and I would never be a part of anything like that and would disinherit my own children if they did.
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ewfknewk
OMFG DID YOU JUST SAY HOMOPHILE I AM C R Y I N G
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Dave Anderson
I haven't laughed so hard in a long time. Realistically, it's probably a false flag.
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katy wall
Or is it a false false flag?
MY theory goes like this. Some anti-gay people had someone hired by Vista Print. That person then pretended to be gay for the past year while working there and then sent out these pamphlets in hopes they would get caught and could blame it all on a gay person trying to stir up controversy.
Seems just as likely as any other false flag conspiracy, and you can't prove it wrong so it must be true.
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Reverand Vic
God is Anti Gay (sin)
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Rev. Anne
God is also anti - judgemental people so there's that.
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Quasi
No Religion == No Sin! Problem solved.
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Carl Elfstrom
Reverand Vic, your god is a sicko !!! And my God doesn't like him at all.
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John Owens
That's what I said, Dave.
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Linda
John, have you noticed it seems some people have difficulty coping with others that have a different insight or opinion than them? You and I disagree quite often... please tell me if I ever cross that line of remaining respectful. That would actually hurt my debating position, and I wouldn't want that. :-o
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John Owens
Yes, Linda. I have noticed. A lot of them don't know one tenth of what they think they do, either. THAT's why they can't cope with different opinions. The different opinions threaten their fantasy bubble.
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Christopher W. Corleone
Perhaps someone who knows them and is opposed to their actions, ordered those cards for them anonymously in hopes to stir up an already fragile situation, may be? Because I agree with John, I don't think the printers would have done it knowingly. I think a safer bet was someone intentionally ordered those pamphlets and put delivery address as the wedding couples address, which can be done by anyone.
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katy wall
Try re-reading the article there Christopher. It states that the COUPLE ORDERED THE PRODUCT.
If there was an order they didn't know about wouldn't they have received the correct order and the malicious order?
You have abandoned all logic in your assessment of the situation.
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Christopher W. Corleone
I can read my good sir, and thats why I said what I said. I still stand by what I said whether it fits your logic matters not. To answer your response and looking outside of the literal box, not unless the person who knew them had this order replace their order and made contact with vista prints as if they made the change, in that case no the couple wouldn't have gotten notified.
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katy wall
Why don't you go ahead and call up Vista Print and try to change someone elses order for wedding materials to something totally unrelated. Make sure to tell them not to notify the people also.
Go ahead and try and do that and let me know how it goes.
My brain hurts just trying to comprehend your though process.
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Christopher W. Corleone
Sorry your brain hurts, but maybe its because you don't think outside the box enough, But rest assured if someone wants to do something bad enough, they would find away to make it happen whether you think so or not. History has proven such can happen here in the US thats why our judicial system is so screwed. So crawl back under your rock its okay really. Have a nice day.
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katy wall
"Think outside the box"
I don't think that phrase means what you think it does.
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Tom B
Joseph...i agree with you...and they certainly are not "sinners"...peace...Tom
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Clayton Beardmore
The Holy Bible (Leviticus 20:10) says: If a man has sexual intercourse with a male as one has sexual intercourse with a woman, the two of them have committed an abomination. They must be put to death; their blood guilt is on themselves.
So they ARE sinners in the eyes of God. I believe there is no "marriage" without sex and the above says mans are not to have sex with another man.
All this PC stuff has to stop somewhere.
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Linda
Clay, you are going back about 4,000 years and think it still has the same context as today? What about wasting your seed on the ground? Does that have to stop somewhere too? Think about it.
Consider the whole chapter and the point is to be respectful of your body and of others' bodies for the sake of dignity. People commonly offered sexual favors from their wife, children, and their self to pay off debts. Lot offered his daughters to the mob in exchange for refuge for the visiting angels. Noah probably molested Canaan. People were molesting animals. There was a common practice called pederasty, where a poor young boy was mentored by a successful businessman in exchange for sexual favors. It was a different world.
The Jewish nation was a new sect and wanted Jews to multiply to increase their numbers and power, but the world is overpopulated today. Leviticus was condemning a frivolous and demeaning sexual attitude for anyone, heterosexual or gay, because it stole their dignity. This article is about two men that are committed to each other in a respectful and dignified manner. IMO, Clay, you are grasping at straws to equate the two.
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Carl Elfstrom
And besides all that the Bible never mentioned anything about two men having sex in the 69 position, which I've heard is a lot more fun than sodomy.
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JASON D BENDER
dude... the way us gays have sex is DEFINITELY NOT "as one has sexual intercourse with a woman"
ONE DOES NOT SUCK A WOMAN'S D... ONE DOES NOT GIVE A WOMAN A REACH-AROUND!
MIKE DROP!!
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Reverend Alia
Thank you for providing clear example of exactly how undignified your actions are by way of your choice of words regarding the said actions. I am not homophobic, by the way. Nor am I anti-gay. If I heard a heterosexual speak in such an uncouth manner on a public forum that does not apply age restrictions (18+) or ratings (X, XXX, R, R+) to express vulgar content, I'd say the same. If you are as civilised as you claim, please demonstrate this with your words as well as your actions. and FYI... I don't have a problem with gay marriage. I have a problem with ALL marriage. Canon Law is of the Vatican and Catholic Church and is therefore evil. It is funny to me they condemn homosexuality and gay marriage yet will allow you to marry tpir cousin... And are mostly all gay for little boys etc. But they don't want to marry the kid, so it's OK... (Sarcasm). All countries that came from the Commonwealth are under the affect of Canon Law. Even if you think you are a Republic you are still affected by Canon Law (Liens on birth certificates proves this)...And they are all corrupt bastatds. Why any one would want those bastards to oversee their union/marriage, I do not know... What does an organisation who became influential through the use of persecution, genocide and shaming know about love? And why the hell does the catholic church/Vatican need an army? To spread more of their special brand of 'love'... Go for it Gay Friends. Be gay. And get married... Under the law of an establishment that condemns you for your sexuality as they do me for my difference on faith... Let's all pander to our oppressors. Sounds like a great way of creating an equal playing field... God Bless You All, no matter what label you feel you need to give yourself.... we are all still brothers and sisters in His Creation, the same Mother (Earth) sustains us all... We are all part of the All. Equal parts at that. As Sophia requests of us all, with Love... (Yeah that's right, fundamentalists and fanatics, I said Sophia and I referred to Mother. I'm a damned heathen, and I'm PROUD! What are you going to do, condemn me on the grounds of Canon Law? Puh-lease... That got old for people like me yay 1600 years ago... If gays want to know real persecution that is strong as ever today, be part of a non-Abrehemic religion and see how 'they' treat you then! You'll then realise you do not have it so bad... )
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JASON D BENDER
Heretic! Burn the heretic!
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JASON D BENDER
the bible also says the same thing about eating shellfish and wearing clothes made from more than one type of cloth.,. YAWN. You ever eat clam chowder or crab meat? ever worn a cotton / poly blend? of course you have - and so you also have committed an abomination. Enjoy hell, sinner!
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Reverend Alia
I do have to agree... Some of those cotton poly blends are evil to behold and ungodly in the comfort department and hot as hell to wear... New conspiracy theory... The anti perspirant manufacturers are in cahoots with the clothing manufacturers, and they are both in league with the devil. Regarding that last comment, given that dirty big eye that watches over everything from behind the scenes, pulling strings on our cotton poly blend garments, I'm not so sure my joke is a joke...
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JASON D BENDER
One hole in an otherwise perfect conspiracy theory: Most people who wear poly blends do not use deodorant... Good pun with the pulling strings reference!
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John Maher
JOHN BOOGER BUTTERFLY OWINS, WILL YOU PLEASE COME OUT of the CLOSET and ADMIT that ALL YOU WANT is a CAKE, YOU, ROY lick the teens MOORE and DOTAR ORANGUtRUMP the ADORNING FIGURES at the TOP, WHIPPED CREAM JOHNNY !!!
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Dave Anderson
You need to get back on your meds.
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Linda
Dave, I think it's past that. His personal life has to be in shambles. Seriously, he may do better with ongoing therapy, meds, and being closely monitored. Hopefully he has someone checking up on him regularly. I've suspected neurological issues with him and usually meds aren't all that affective for that. I think a lot of us are genuinely concerned about his mental state and welfare. I haven't seen one coherent or age appropriate post from him since I've been on this site. It would be nice to see him become more mentally stable, for his own good.
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John Maher
DEAREST LINDA and DAVE, do YOU MEAN LIKE I ACT and SPEAK LIKE DOTAR ORANGUtRUMP, MOORE VILLAGE IDIOTS LEARN HOW to READ and NOT JUST BABBLE ALONG LIKE JOHN BOOGER BUTTERFLY OWINS, SAME VILLAGE, I GUESS ???
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John Owens
Linda and Dave, I certainly am concerned about him. I know he really likes me a lot because he mentions me so much, but whatever his condition is won't let him be nice very often. Once in a rare while, he will say something cogent, but it is very rare. Then sometimes he won't say anything for days. I truly hope he is warm enough, and well fed, and bathed and cared for but I fear he may not be.
Maher, I know you will read this. I do care, man.
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Sam
For those of you still selecting quotes from the bible stop being hypercritical and homophobic. Look at what you are wearing. Get your head out of the sand and stop hating yourself. It's a sham when you use the bible for your own needs to hate others. Find love and not hate. They did not deserve the hate mail. No one does. Where is your love and empathy. It's discusting to see the hate on this site.
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Jeri
Wow! It amazes me on how many hateful and ignorant comments are on this site! I mean, I know this is a predominantly Christian site. But wow! I guess the word "UNIVERSAL" Life Church doesn't mean much to the CONSERVATIVE Christian EXTREMIST! That's sad. And the rude comments from those of other faiths too! But I have to say, most are from conservative extremist. Well anyway, I just got on this web site to get ordained and more importantly, the statement letter so I can legally marry my gay friends! Goddess Bless!
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JASON D BENDER
LOL - if you think it is bad here - check out the comments @ fox new dot com! It is actually frightening!! I finally realized the reason is that only loser idiots leave comments nowadays! LOL ;)
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Chuck
Im realizing this blog focuses entirely too much on homosexual related stories, and controversy.
How about.......the couple realize somebody spent postage to tell them their thoughts, and throw the pamphlets away like grown ups. End of story. I looked that pamphlet up...it is neither threatening, not "hateful". It is an opinion.
Instead, they chose to make a spectacle of the situation, so that MANY MANY more people get "mailed" a story like this, and have it shoved in our faces.
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katy wall
Are you implying the couple should not be angry because somebody else spent the money for the postage to send the pamphlets?
That is not only a ridiculous assertion, but not even based on the facts. The couple paid the postage because they placed the order for a different item that was replaced by these malicious pamphlets.
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Chuck
Im saying who cares, call the place and make sure they get their order. If someone sent me some homosexual endorsing literature, Id look at it for two seconds and throw it away. I wouldn't make a Federal "Im a victim" case out it......people need to grow the F up.
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Linda
Chuck, the company told the couple they would provide their wedding programs, as they had ordered them. Sending hateful pamphlets "instead" indicates the company is not only untrustworthy, someone from there tried to be maliciously hurtful. It was probably an employee's deed and they don't care or realize how much it hurts the owner. IMO, it's good this story came out because it sends a message to companies that might consider doing something similar. If the employee didn't want to deal with this issue, give the job to another employee. Why be vengeful and malicious? One of my best friends has a gay son... life is already hard enough without people making it harder for no reason. It hurts the whole family and their friends.
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John A Anderson, CD, CIF Mons ON
Did Yeshua not say: Love thine enemy as thyself? People need to stop being concerned about what happens in someone else's bedroom, and BE concerned about things like feeding and clothing the less fortunate, and stopping the raping and pillaging of the planet for personal gain. This blog set DOES seem to concentrate on LGBTQ items, but that is because it is in the news, rather than behind closed doors. Follow the example the man supposedly set (being Pagan, I doubt he existed in quite the same way as he is portrayed modernly), and not the example being shown by the Republicans.
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JASON D BENDER
re: " and stopping the raping and pillaging of the planet for personal gain." Whatever!?! The Earth was totally asking for it!
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Chuck
Victimology is a booming business
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Linda
Chuck, wouldn't it be wonderful if we could end all victimization? Aren't people to be accountable for their actions? If someone is falsely claiming victimization, then that needs to be justly determined and the person has to be held accountable for their fraudulent action as well. Either the gay couple or the business / employee were the victims, and the perpetrator needs to be held accountable. I'm betting it is the employee of the business... and the owner has already apologized, profusely.
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Chuck
In the land of the Modern Adult (America, as framed by Founding Fathers), nobody was actually harmed. Move on with their lives, they should and stop acting as if they were "assaulted"
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Linda
Chuck, the gay people shouldn't report they were defrauded but if you are, you will...right? If it happened one time in their whole life, that's one thing. If it happens over, and over, and over... enough is enough. If people report abuse the first time the perpetrator does it, then it will probably spare future victimizations.
It is mindboggling that Bill Cosby's first victims didn't come forward. If they had, the 50 or so after them would have been spared. Assaulted people need to come out and report injustices.
In this particular couple's case, I'm not so sure it isn't a false flag because of some valid issues Jason Bender pointed out. But I'm sitting on the fence for now.
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Ed
I see so many people starting off with either the outright statement (or at least belief) that this was a set up to embarrass the company and/or net the couple some money. Some even say, with no evidence to back it up, that the couple probably were (or at least may have been) participants in a conspiracy to get the money and/or embarrass the company.
WHATS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?
What's wrong is that anyone would be making judgmental assumptions about the couple prior to the conclusion of the investigation. When did we, as a people, become so self righteous and accusing? WE would never, of course, do anything like what THOSE PEOPLE may have done, but we'll happily gossip about them and discuss how horrible their actions were, IF they did this, or even assume that they did that.
Yes, in the past, SOME PEOPLE have, indeed, deliberately lied about such things or even conspired with others to deliberately defraud companies for money. SOME PEOPLE. Not everyone. Do the past actions of a few give us the right to judge this couple, who were NOT among those few, and who are, presumably NOT GUILTY OF ANYTHING but loving each other? It's not a crime or a sin for them to love each other.
I'll even grant that certainly, it's POSSIBLE that this "conspiracy" or lying happened here. Anything is POSSIBLE. But with no evidence to credit it, who are we to spread distrust, shame, guilt, or ANYTHING other than loving concern, about the two men involved?
Those who are quick to make assumptions of guilt by the allegedly injured parties need to take a long, hard look at themselves and consider just how perfect they are not, rather than being so quick to judge and try to heap guilt on others. Leave that to God and to the courts, please.
Peace out.
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JASON D BENDER
Bull. Common sense says the allegations are false. This type of behavior is rarely encountered. When it is, it almost always is the actions of a bigoted sole proprietor and except chik filet - never a corporation - and, Chick Filet's owners did not attempt to conceal their bigotry, just the opposite. Probabilities are against this incident being real.
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Linda
Jason, after all these passionate anti-gay comments on here.... you are joking, right?
You said you were gay. If you have never experienced malicious discrimination in your life, you are very lucky and the exception. Ask your gay friends and see what they say. A few close gay friends and one of my best friend's son have commented that they felt their job, and some even their life was somewhat threatened because of being gay.
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JASON D BENDER
Linda, I grew up in the 70's... Back then verbal and physical harassment of gay (or gay acting) students was ignored at best and encouraged at worst (as a way to toughen them up and make men out of them, When I was small, scared and insecure I was verbally assaulted probably over 1,000 times and physically assaulted (mild to moderately) well over 100 times.
I have grown larger since then. After several years working with highly aggressive 1,200 lb Thoroughbred race horses at Longacres, then serving my country by doing several tours of duty in Iraq and Kuwait (USACE 426th Engineer Command) and, later, serving some time in the can for charges caught from methamphetamine manufacture and trafficking offenses committed as an associate of the Gypsy Jokers - I learned the skills (and developed the self confidence) necessary to take care of myself. I abhor unnecessary violence and make no claims of being a bad-ass - but, I can and will aggressively defend myself, my family, my country, innocent animals and vulnerable people from any ill intentioned person or persons who do not share my desire for peaceful coexistence.
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Lisa McDaniel
Call
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Lisa McDaniel
Call it whatever you choose, it doesn't change the FACT that it IS SIN, punishable by hell, you can marry who you want and support what you want, but facts are facts, no "SO CALLED" ministry proclaiming to be God fearing and upholding the words of Christ will condone this behavior, only those who represent the kingdom of darkness will do this, you are liars, unbelievers in the truth, and will suffer consequences for misleading the weak.
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JASON D BENDER
Christ said nothing on the issue of homosexuality. He did say quite a bit on the subject of not judging, though.
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JASON D BENDER
Christ said nothing on this issue -but did say quite a bit on the subject of not judging, though
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Linda
Lisa, there is nothing in the NT against being gay. If you think there is a logical reason why it is wrong to be gay, other than how you interpret the Bible, let's hear it in "your own words." I suspect you might be just going by what your pastor said and have no meaningful or logical reason for being anti-gay. That's sad. Did you know a percentage of every species of mammals display gay tendencies? If you are unable to give any logical reason for being anti-gay, why make their lives hell?
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pops
DOES ANYONE REALLY CARE WHO MARRIES WHO?
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JASON D BENDER
Some ignorant bigots do, but that is about it.
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Chuck
The Universe (Creator) does....you know, the old male+female = balance thing
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JASON D BENDER
Prove it Chuck. You are NOT God's spokesbigot.
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Linda
Chuck, what universe creator are you referencing? Do you just type without thinking?
How does male + female equal balance because it seems about every country in the world says only the male + female thing has created over population, gross pollution, global warming, and lots of other problems. There is barely any natural clean water any more. Maybe if we had embraced gay people and let them live like they wanted, along with the male + female thing, then it would have balanced quite nicely. Maybe those problems I've cited are punishments from the Universe (creator) for sinning on the gay people and ruining what would have been perfect balance.
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JASON D BENDER
This is definately a scam I read the lawsuit, a n umber of things stood out. especially "16. Like many couples, Mr. Heasley and Mr. Borg wanted to customize the details of the wedding to their preferences. In particular, Plaintiffs spent weeks designing a wedding program that captured their love for each other and the importance of their wedding day. " WEEKS!?! That 1 page was a 2 hour job at most. see https://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/heasley-and-borg-v-vistaprint.pdf also - they filed suit within under 90 days - that is much faster than most defendants.
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Linda
Jason, what you see on the program looks simple but you don't know what they had to eliminate to get it like that. Maybe they initially wanted to put more but then decided it was too much... on and on... whose parents should be mentioned first... what decoration on the paper was going to be printed (blue hydrangeas). OMG... some of the gay guys I know are fanatics on presentation. Mark Twain said he wish he had more time to write less.
Why not file a suit within 90 days? It is malicious deeds like that which discourage gay people from their respectful pursuit of happiness. They will set a precedence to others that dare to attack innocent people. If it is a false flag, then they are placing themselves in a vulnerable position by filing a law suit. Think about it.
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JASON D BENDER
Linda, the point is not "Why not file a suit within 90 days? " the point is that in practice, compared to most filings, that is exceedingly rare. Incidents like this allegation are rare, and where corporations are involved unheard of... Sure, the COULD have spent 2 weeks on that fairly spartan generic page - but it pushes credulity - likewise the other points I made... All together - taken as a totality of circumstances, it is somewhat dubious. In the end, it is just their word against the printers. They have a huge incentive to lie... The printers had/have ZERO incentive to have done what they are accused of - just the opposite in fact, their business will suffer as a result of the bad publicity.
re"they are placing themselves in a vulnerable position by filing a law suit. " WRONG !! They live in Australia - they face no risk of criminal prosecution and the printers would not profit from filing a civil suit even if they won. Only a corporation has pockets deep enough to make an international lawsuit potentially rewarding financially.
I am gay and have AIDS - so I like it that most people are inclined to believe and defend these guys. A few years back the opposite would have been true. But, this particular case is questionable at best.
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Linda
Jason, I could have spent 2 wks. on a program. Obviously, not 40 hr. weeks. That's just not your thing.
The allegations may be rare because a lot of gay people don't want to come out and announce to the world they are gay, to be further targeted by gay bashers. You said it is only recent times the gay community is finally getting some support from others. The perpetrator is probably an employee, not the business owner. If the allegations are erroneous, then that will come out in court too.
I live about 3-4 miles from the Pulse Nightclub so I know there is discrimination against gay people. It was really touching to see the messages from around the world pour in here after that, letting Orlando know they were with us. I still see signs in people's yards saying "We will not let hate win." People are still bring flowers to what is left of the nightclub.
Sorry to hear you have AIDS. A really good gay friend of mine got HIV and the meds are so good now they can't even find a trace of it in his blood. Take the meds and you will be fine.
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JASON D BENDER
I have been HIV+ since at least '86 and diagnosed w/AIDS in '89... So, I am guessing your assessment " you will be fine" is correct. I will live long enough to die of cancer and heart disease like everyone else. I wrote you re: my experiences with violence and harassment from bigots - it is pending moderation. Was going to say I had never been shot at by a religious fundamentalist with a fully automatic rifle - but, that's not true! LOL But, that was because of the uniform I was wearing not my sexual orientation...
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Rick Williams
Christ did not say anything on this issue? Are you for real? Jesus Christ addressed this issue along with many others in Revelation 21:8 but your kind loves to teach a different Jesus.Your kind teaches a Jesus that loves and supports abominations, a Jesus that loves rapists and murderers. All you FAKE Ministers of Jesus Christ will also get what you got coming to you as well by Jesus Christ and I say your kind absolutely deserves to perish in the Lake of Fire! An abomination will always be an abomination and being gay is an ABOMINATION.
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JASON D BENDER
re Revelation 21:8 "and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. ' Everyone has lied. I guess then we are all screwed by your logic... Revelations was not written by Christ. My point stands. re: ABOMINATION: the bible also says the same thing about eating shellfish and wearing clothes made from more than one type of cloth.,. YAWN. You ever eat clam chowder or crab meat? ever worn a cotton / poly blend? of course you have – and so you also have committed an abomination. Enjoy hell, sinner!
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Linda
Rick, it appears YOU are teaching a different Jesus. No where in the KJV does the verse you referenced say anything at all about being gay. Check again. I prefer the KJV because you can research the original meaning of the word via the Strong Numbers. Maybe you want to check and triple check the facts before trying to make someone's life hell based on your misunderstandings. When you finally get the epiphany you are wrong, you will feel really bad for what you have done.
You would not believe how many of my friends, mostly heterosexual ones too, have turned away from the Christian teachings because of people propagating hatred, especially toward gay people. It is sad... and unfounded.
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flugo
Read your KJV Bible, Linda! Romans 1:26,27 clearly demonstrate God's view on same-gender involvement. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. And Bible commentators are in agreement as to the gist of this passage. There are other references, as well in the Scriptures. (As always, 'love the sinner, hate the sin')
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Linda
Bob, you don't know how to read the Bible. People back then were not as articulate as we are today. That is why I said I prefer the KJV because it seems to be the easiest to research what the original word was, going back to the prime root meaning, in the manuscript the KJV was taken. I typically use www.biblestudytools.com , use KJV, and put the setting on Strong Numbers.
You cited verses that said women gave up their natural use and went against their nature. Mankind gave up the natural use of a woman and lusted after each other, giving themselves over to reprobate minds, became backbiters, and etc.
First you have to read the whole chapter for it to make sense, not cherry pick a verse here and there to spin it the way you want. If you look up the word "woman" in the Greek Lexicon, you will see that it means "a lactating woman." That means she is a NURTURING woman.
Reading the whole chapter, it is obvious the verses you cited are talking about the religious right and NOT gay people. It is saying that the women of the religious right that like to condemn people, gave up their nurturing side of themselves. Mankind gave up their natural use of nurturing people and lusted after each other. Think about it... that is what the pious religious right do in condemning others and lust after each other thinking they are so perfect. The condemning religious right are more appropriately defined by that verse and the whole chapter than the gay people.
Additionally it says in the first verse in chapter 2 that if we judge them, then we are no better than they are. So if I judge / condemn the condemning religious right, then I am no better than they are. How could that make sense about gay people??????
If you look at the Biblical verses about eunuchs, they are probably the gay people in the NT. They have no desire for women, some were born that way and some became that way later on. Why do you think men trusted their harem to the eunuchs to care for them? They knew their harem would remain untouched, and some eunuchs probably helped with their harem's wardrobe, decorating the home, and lots of things.... but they would never molest his harem. Think about it.
Bob, I am totally heterosexual, my immediate family is also, so I have no dog in this fight... I just want to know the truth. Once people who condemn the gay people realize they have hurt a lot of people on a false premise, they will feel very bad if they have a conscience. If they stop it now, they will regret their actions less than if they don't stop now.
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JASON D BENDER
Linda!! OMG! What you wrote above is - hands down - the most F ing BRILLIANT, wonderful and scholarly piece on this subject that I have ever read. And, I have read a lot! You truly are a gentlewoman and a scholar. Respects and love, Jason & Fischer Bender
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Carl Elfstrom
Thanks for mentioning fire lake. That's a really cool song by Bob Seger. You seem to be confused about the ULC. Although many of its ministers are Christians, many are not. ULC is not a christian sect, and does not preach Christianity.You can preach about anything you want, but don't expect us to share your beliefs. They seem very distorted to me.
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Carl Elfstrom
Ms.Ricki, I'd like to know what you think about Jesus and his twelve merry men, who never again had a woman after they met him. Come now girl, don't you think that twelve dicks would be hard even for someone like Jesus to pass up.
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Rev. John D. Partin
Rick R. Williams. many things are called "abominations" in the Bible, not just homosexuality, and "abomination" just basically means any "sin against God", as richardwaynegarganta.com/abomination.htm shows. So, if you are serious and want to be consistent about condemning "abominations", you have to condemn all of these things the same and not pick and choose from among them for greater or lesser condemnation.
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Robert Martinez
ok everyone, lets all be understanding and respectful of one another. in scripture and yes I am talking about the real bible, it does not mention anywhere that it is o.k. for a man to marry a man or a woman to marry a woman. does the bible talk about homosexuality? your darn right it does. read the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. the lord loves everyone, because there is not hate in the lord's heart. the lord loves gay people, what he doesn't approve of is the life style. when a man and a man lay together, or a woman and woman lay together, what comes out of it? NOTHING! it's filth an abomination like someone had mentioned. when a man and a woman lay together, families are created, a blessing from the lord. the lord does not bless the gay life style, but the enemy does. just some food for thought. people.
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Diane
I don’t understand what all this hate is about if you don’t like LGBT community then don’t talk to them.
That being said I am sorry that some short minded person tried to ruin your special day
People are entitled to there opinions but that does not make it right to be mean to people
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Bill Fox
I've had Vista Print print business cards for me for going on twenty years. I've never received any advertising that wasn't printing related, much less religious in nature. It is unfortunate that an employee(s) took it upon his/herself to do this. To paraphrase, "I would not want this done me by a gay person." If I cannot perform a service for people, for whatever reason, I would try to work with them to get a good replacement. However, there is a professional/business aspect to ministry that is legally compelling and outweighs my personal beliefs, and there is scripture to support rendering to the government, if it is legal. I would not marry a man and a ten year old child, because that isn't legal. Same sex marriage is legal nationally, and if I cannot perform a ceremony for religious reasons, I should get out of the ministry.
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Jim D.
First, I am honestly bewildered by how many of you seem to be continuously hitting the snooze button on your social evolution alarm clocks. It's time to get up and evolve already! Do you dinosaurs really need a meteor to hit you to figure this out? Leave the gay people alone. They're not hurting you or anyone else. Live and let live.
Second, all the conspiracy theories! You guys watch too much TV. I have an idea: WAIT FOR SOME EVIDENCE BEFORE JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS! If the evidence suggests a scam was perpetrated by the two men, then you can crow. If not, you just look stupid.
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JASON D BENDER
Jim, I am Gay. I believe this is a scam for reasons unrelated to bigotry.
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Jim D.
I can appreciate the fact that, as a gay man, your opinion should be unbiased towards the couple referred to in the article. Is there evidence that exists that suggests it was a scam? I didn't see anything in this article that would indicate a scam. Perhaps you know something about this case that was not included in the article. If so, what might that be?
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JASON D BENDER
Common sense says the allegations are likely false. This type of behavior is rarely encountered. When it is, it almost always is the actions of a bigoted sole proprietor and except chik filet – never a corporation – and, Chick Filet’s owners did not attempt to conceal their bigotry, just the opposite. Probabilities are against this incident being real. I read the lawsuit, a number of things stood out. especially “16. Like many couples, Mr. Heasley and Mr. Borg wanted to customize the details of the wedding to their preferences. In particular, Plaintiffs spent weeks designing a wedding program that captured their love for each other and the importance of their wedding day. ” WEEKS!?! That single page was a 2 hour job at most. see https://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/heasley-and-borg-v-vistaprint.pdf also – they filed suit within under 90 days, in a court where the minimun case is 75K, that is much faster than most defendants file. They didn’t even wait to see if a settlement offer would be made. The pamphlets were orderd such that they arrived the day before the supposed wedding, they are not from the US.
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Linda
Jason, common sense says these allegations are false?!? Does anyone know you're gay besides the people on this forum? You have never been discriminated on in any way for being gay? I've seen some discriminating comments right here on this forum so your comment is baffling.
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Jim D.
Jason,... common sense? That's what you want to go with, common sense? So, in other words YOU HAVE NO PROOF!!! You are merely speculating that Heasley and Borg committed a fraud to scam Vista-Print out of a big payday. What you have, sir, is an unsubstantiated theory, and I sincerely doubt an attorney would try to float that one in court with his only evidence being "common sense." So clearly, you're not a lawyer.
The fact that Vista-Print profusely apologized and claims to be supportive of the LGBT community definitely leaves them out of the "Chik-fil-A" category. Obviously Vista-Print is going to do an investigation to figure out what happened. If the couple submitted the anti-gay material and tried to claim they submitted something else, that will be discovered. The article states they submitted their order for their wedding programs online. This means Vista-Print will have a record of the transaction with all the details.
Here is a more likely scenario: My guess is an employee with anti-gay sentiments reviewed the order, substituted his anti-gay content for the wedding program, and sent it to print. Anyone in the chain after that employee would not know what the original content looked like.
You seem to be so against these two men, it makes me wonder if you have some self-hating gay issues.
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angel
I'm kind of with Jason only because they decided to sue the company as opposed to contact them and try to work with, unless the programs were made out of solid gold, they literally sued over, maybe 100 dollars worth of paper.... red flags always arise when frivolous lawsuits are done.
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John Owens
All of which lends credence to MY theories for which I was so vehemently condemned
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Rev. John D. Partin
So, Jim, in place of Jason Bender's "lack of evidence", as you say, you offer us yet another scenario and piece of guesswork about this matter! And that really makes you more "reasonable" than him? If all court cases were only based and decided on explicit and eyewitness evidence and testimony, there would only be about 1% or less of them that we actually have because most of them are based and decided on circumstantial evidence, unless we get lucky with a video recording or someone's being in the right place at tbe right time. So, his guesswork is as good as yours, since none of those lucky means of verifying either your or his surmising here about it were present there or we wouldn't need your surmises.
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Carl Elfstrom
And y'all act like the Bible is the only religious book in this world. Quit quoting and misquoting those worthless scriptures (which were mostly written by delusional schizophrenics), and find a different book to read. You'll only be better for it.
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JASON D BENDER
Common sense says the allegations are likely false. This type of behavior is rarely encountered. When it is, it almost always is the actions of a bigoted sole proprietor and except chik filet – never a corporation – and, Chick Filet’s owners did not attempt to conceal their bigotry, just the opposite. Probabilities are against this incident being real. I read the lawsuit, a number of things stood out. especially “16. Like many couples, Mr. Heasley and Mr. Borg wanted to customize the details of the wedding to their preferences. In particular, Plaintiffs spent weeks designing a wedding program that captured their love for each other and the importance of their wedding day. ” WEEKS!?! That single page was a 2 hour job at most. see https://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/heasley-and-borg-v-vistaprint.pdf also – they filed suit within under 90 days, in a court where the minimun case is 75K, that is much faster than most defendants file. They didn't even wait to see if a settlement offer would be made. The pamphlets were orderd such that they arrived the day before the supposed wedding, they are not from the US.
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Timothy Carlstead
When this story said the pamphlets had hateful anti-gay messages in them . I knew right right when I got to that one line I knew they interviewed those to gays <-- (barf).They used "hateful" because what they read was about what had happened to the queer people back in biblical times aka Sodom and Gomorrah. I think those people did the right thing by sending those gays the pamphlets. I think it was smart trying to give those gays a chance to change. Again they used "hateful" because they know that those pamphlets are right and they are wrong. The bible says to love thy neighbor like you love yourself and I love them. But if you hold a gun to my head and try to make me support the queers you might as well just shoot me dead because I know whats right and whats wrong. Minister Timothy Carlstead
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JASON D BENDER
Timothy said: " The bible says to love thy neighbor like you love yourself and I love them." Timothy also said: " to gays <– (barf)" and "if you hold a gun to my head and try to make me support the queers you might as well just shoot me dead" One of those statements is a lie. The bible says Revelation 21:8 “and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur." Unfortunately, Timothy is going to burn in hell.
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Carl Elfstrom
Timmy Carlstead, I bet if you were sodomized in the right way you would truly enjoy it, and realize that you are really gay.
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Timothy Carlstead
Hey thanks for telling where you're heading buddy I'll pray for you. Oh by the way you can say I am going hell when I am not. Because of one word REPENTANCE!!!! Pastors, and Ministers don't have to support it because we know it's sin and we don't side with sin and we don't approve of it. So you can cry because if you were a minister you would know what's wrong. By the way as GOD Once said THALL SHALL NOT JUDGE FOR I WILL JUDGE THEE!!!
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JASON D BENDER
Dude – I was not being serious or literal. I was making a joke of and about you by mocking you, your ignorance, your bigotry, your state of denial, your cartoonish level of anger and hatred, your reactionary and self-caricaturing political beliefs and your lack of self awareness.
So…
Thank you for proving my point, foo! Alas, I cannot compete – the stuff you write is WAY more laugh inducing than what I write! LOL I guess that means you win! The #1 Funniest Lying Clown Award for the Monastery!
DOH!!
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Carl Elfstrom
Hey little Timmy, you sound like your forked tongue is stuck between your teeth. And if that ain't queer I don't know what is.
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Carl Elfstrom
Hey Timothy, I'd like to form a train of men and put you and your dismal god in front, leading the way. Rest assured that I'll be right behind you, showing you my love in a special way. By the way, ULC ministers are not christian ministers. We are far better than that.
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Timothy Carlstead
How am I going to hell when I said gays ⬅ barf and if you hold a gun to my head and try to make me support them you might as well just shoot me dead. Tell me Jason how am I going there ? I said barf because I don't approve of their view of marriage!! And I said I rather be shot then support them because I know as a Minister SAME SEX MARRIAGE IS A SIN!!!!!! So you better think twice about judging someone over what the say because YOUR JUDGEMENT DAY IS COMING TOO!!! Pastors and Ministers do not have to support the Queers and support their marriage!! We say we love them because again LOVE THY NEIGHBOR LIKE YOU LOVE YOURSELF! Just because we don't agree with them doesn't mean we are lying and we are going to hell we are supporting what's right!!!!! Oh one more thing there is a thing us Pastors, Ministers, and Christians do its called Repentance!!!
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JASON D BENDER
Dude - I was not being serious or literal. I was making a joke of and about you by mocking you, your ignorance, your bigotry, your state of denial, your cartoonish level of anger and hatred, your reactionary and self-caricaturing political beliefs and your lack of self awareness.
So...
Thank you for proving my point, foo! Alas, I cannot compete - the stuff you write is WAY more laugh inducing than what I write! LOL I guess that means you win! The #1 Funniest Lying Clown Award for the Monastery!
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Timothy Carlstead
Since you are pointing at me and calling me the clown you should know that while you were pointing at me there were nine pointing back at you. Because you know what you can do you can come kiss my horses rear.
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JASON D BENDER
Wow! Excellent comeback... very retro! have not heard that one since grade school... However, I was/am mocking you - which requires no involvement of any of my digits... PS: The correct number of fingers pointing back at the person pointing is 4, not 9!!
OMFG LOL YOU CANT EVEN COUNT THE FINGERS ON YOUR (OR A) HAND PROPERLY! SO SAD! -
Carl Elfstrom
I knew it! Timothy Carlstead has just admitted to having homosexual desires by saying he wants a man to kiss his rear end. I'm sure he wants to let it all out, but he's apparently homophobic of himself. Pay close attention to the things he says. Closet queens like him inadvertantly hint at their true natures. Deep, down, inside they want to be free of their unsurmountable burden, but can't admit to it. The feeling of being hopelessly trapped in his self-created prison of self denial will probably eventually lead him to commit suicide.
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Carl Elfstrom
I have ten fingers on both of my hands, Timmi Mae. Is one of yours missing? If so I'll lend you one of mine. The middle one. Look, I'm holding it up so you can see it. You can use it for all kinds of things. You can even sit on it, and make it go up and down. And you can even do it in Jesus' name, so it will be a christian act. All things done in his name. Amen.
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angel
By saying gays barf...how is this loving your neighbor again? Sorry, I'm just not feeling the love....
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Dragon Priest
This satan does not exist. It was invented by the religions to blame something for their problems. Being gay makes zero difference on one's path. That is christianity's problems and one of the reasons it will go away.
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Dr. Berry
Love one another as I have loved you!
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Carl Elfstrom
You haven't loved me Dr.Berry, and I'm not sure I want you to. You might not even be my type.
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saludbellezabio
hahaha, this is so awful, I cannot see love, forgiveness, acceptance, empathy in most of the homophobic and full of hatred commentaries, and are these low class infra humans the ones talking in front of the people? So you teach hatred, violence and mental, verbal and physical abuse!!!?? That's why I was and never belong to any of your terrible "churches" full of lies, hatred and nauseating crap!!
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Carl Elfstrom
Trust me Zabio, we're working to put a stop to it. We just have to think of the right spell. It's called protection magick, and is a very good thing. There are some good things in the bible. One of them states "Faith without works is dead". Like with everything else there are some people who say they are Christians,but really are'nt. Some people actually think they are Christians, and lots of other things, but they really aren't. Some of them have even learned scripture well enough to promote their deviant views and beliefs. Another good thing written in that book of which I no longer tout states " Beware the wolf in sheep's clothing". I will not only beware of him, but wait until I think of the right spell. Us Wiccans are not the ones who turn the other cheek. And as I so Will,so mote it be! Blessed Be!!!
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Linda
Carl, Wiccans don't turn the other cheek? Hmmmm... You have read the Wiccan Rede, haven't you? The final words, which are emphasized say "An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will" Harm nothing, ever. Justice in a legal court is another thing.
Please avoid putting Wiccans in a bad light. They are being falsely defined and ignorantly discriminated upon by many. I have Wiccan friends that would cringe at casting any hurtful intentions on anyone. Most believe it will come back 7 fold.
Carl, hope you had a blessed Imbolc and have a blessed Ostara as well.
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flugo
Linda: 15 to 20 times in the New Testament we find the warning 'beware'. The meanings suggest: observe, keep safe from, heed, and regard. The unavoidable conclusion is that one must make a judgement in order to take this cautionary action that the Bible recommends.
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Carl Elfstrom
Next Bob, see if you can figure out how many times the word " The" is mentioned in the bible. Then I'll give you another word to look up and count in another book of fairytales. I can see that you're a big boy now and know how to count. And try to never forget that "Fairytales, can come true, they can happen to you, if you're young at heart." So stay naive Bobby, it means the same the thing. Like having the blind faith of (ignorant and naive) children.I'd like to see some try to preach that worthless biblical BS to me.
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Linda
Bob, apparently I lost my previous post to you and I hope I am not duplicating it.
That conclusion is avoidable. We are to determine what is right or wrong for our self, no one else. Judge not lest ye be judged. Worry about the log in your own eye instead of the speck in someone else's. Jesus only put the pious religious right in their place. His word was like a two edged sword, it cut both ways. The pious and the heathen, and in the midst of these we find the Christ nature.
Even in the old testament, if it were really saying something bad about homosexuality, why doesn't it say anything bad about being lesbian? If you know a verse that makes women exempt from sin, I'd sure like to see it.
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Carl Elfstrom
Linda, women aren't the ones who can cast their seeds upon the ground. Men can't impregnate other men either. With that in mind, does something need to be said about lesbianism. It's self explanatory. There's nothing wrong with it. Only the seed bearers have done wrong, according to the bible. So the gay men who believe in all that biblical nonsense ought to have sex changes so they can become lesbians. But what if they started making ovum omelettes? Would that be cannibalistic? The bible does'nt mention it. So, are Christians lost and confused about everything that can't be reconciled with that silly book?
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Linda
Carl, clearly you mock the Bible so I presume you could care less about the rational of your assertions. I suppose common sense is your way of dealing with what you can not reconcile. Even so, IMO, there are many jewels to be found in the Bible that can clearly make sense and can be very beneficial and transformative, No matter what you think, I suspect you are at least as lost and confused as the rest of us.
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JASON D BENDER
Linda - Agreed 100% Much of Jesus's preaching is words to live by regardless of one's faith or lack thereof... Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, care for the sick, feed the hungry, help the poor, practice mercy, avoid judgmentalism, strive for peace and non violence, let he who is without sin cast the first stone, hypocrisy is super bad, true prayer is done in private - not in public for show, mindless adherence to rules meant to benefit you can harm you, eg 'zero tolerance' is bad, what one says and does is what will defile one - not (for example) pork or shellfish, "you cannot take it with you", achieving great wealth is not worth it if you must sell your soul (violate your conscience) to achieve it. I could go on for 40 days and 40 nights - but will leave it there...
Peace to all, J+F
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Linda
Jason, it is amazing how you have honored Biblical teachings when so many have used them against gay people, and still do... albeit fraudulently. I can see how much of the gay community has turned there back to the Bible and used common sense to realize their lifestyle is harming no one. How did you remain loyal to the Gospels after being battered by the gay nonsense the religious right attributed to Biblical teachings?
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JASON D BENDER
Linda:
My childhood was defined by 1 thing (besides giving lots and lots of adult men BJs... LOL... I mean seriously LOTS and LOTS!!) was the fight for freedom of thought. The church that my parents forced me to go (PHYSICALLY FORCED in teen years) to until I was big enough and brave enough to literally wrassle and fisticuffs effectively enough that dad's 3x a week exercise in shoving me in the car and sitting on me while mom drove was no longer an option.
I was once, literally, beaten by a Sunday school "teacher" for pointing out that male and female skeletons do in fact have the same number of ribs - contradicting her false claim that women and men differ by 1 thereby proving the 'God made Eve from the rib of Adam' story - and then proved it with help from the Sunday edition of The Seattle Times which had run an article about the forensic work being done re; 'The Green River Killer" - this church was so out there that the possession of and reading from a secular newspaper was regarded as a punishable sin as well...
The "pastor" was an angry old uneducated dummy that spewed nonsense so obvious that it would embarrass today's 'earth is 6,000 years old, flat and the dinosaur bones were put there by satan to trick us' tin foil hat types... As example: the Social Security Administration's move from paper records to computers and magnetic tape was part of "The coming of the Anti-Christ and impending government attempts to force the mark of the Beast upon us" type crap...
Whereas I was a deeply nerdy, science loving, bookworm type with a collegiate level of comprehension by the time I was halfway through Jr. high school... (I graduated 2 years early.) And, worst of all for me - I was the type of person that could not keep quiet or go with the flow... When I heard nonsense I was compelled to challenge it vigorously and vociferously!
I became, as a result of these experiences, as animated an advocate and follower of Atheism as Richard Dawkins...For well over a decade...
In my mid 30's I finally became "cool" - self employed as a fairly large scale Medical Cannabis Producer no less - I married an 18 yr old hottie hippie chick (I am not gay, I am bi - she was a fag hag - and we had hundreds of two/three guy threesome/foursome adventures, but I digress.) She occasionally spoke words of deep wisdom that would hit me like a ton of bricks and/or a religious experience... (Linda - some of your writing has had the same effect on me...)
One day she 'shushed' me and said: "Jason - God did not do those things to you - "the church did... you are not angry with God or the concept of God - you are angry with those bigoted, ignorant, angry sacks of shit who went to that building and called it a church... (she added the aside that God, being part of everything in the universe, most certainly did not require people to go around asking for donations so that they can build a little wooden house for him to be in!) Do not let your anger with those assholes poison or prevent a relationship with a loving God, first... And, second, someday you must let go of the anger altogether - not for those assholes, but for your own good...
It took over a decade to fully bloom into the relationship with God that I have now - but that day the scales had been removed from my eyes - and, where I had been blind, I began to slowly see the truth!
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JASON D BENDER
I just answered your question with an >1000 word tome that is currently awaiting moderation - spent > an hour and a lot of energy in that - hope it makes it to 'online.' I sure enjoy your writings - and appreciate your interest in me!
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JASON D BENDER
Linda, half serious / half joking question: When I was but a wee lass (who's head was already full of Gay lust -and lots of it) I never really felt like I was a sinner (nor did I care) especially since the place where I met the largest portion of men who would let me/have me give them BJ's was church camp, church and the YMCA! (totally not kidding!) EXCEPT FOR THIS: Those pictures and carvings of Jesus on the cross... His well defined muscles, torn shirt and "cut" abs an made me so horney!! But, since (1) this was Jesus and (2) be he a man or the literal one and only son of god (*) he was being executed in a horrifically painful manner - which made sexual arousal of any kind highly inappropriate in any event! Was this lusting in my heart a sin or an unavoidable human biological reaction to visual stimuli that I was/am "hard-wired" to respond to in such a manner?
(*) Actually Jesus def was the son of God - as WE ALL are the children of God - but, I digress...
Interested in your thoughts, o wise and kindly sage! Peace, J+F
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Linda
Jason, your post farther down is an amazing testimony to your way back to a faith in spirituality and learning the difference of that to a fraudulent "organized religion."
I am in no way a wise sage, yet I have learned some liberating concepts from intensive studies in the Word. I was never referenced as a genius.
IMO, your reactions as a wee lass to the representations of Jesus on the cross is just that, your honest, spontaneous response. Why? IDK, but I can guess.... The crucifixion is probably the most important representation of the Christian message. From a young age you may have subconsciously correlated a powerful connection between sexual gratification and the "church" atmosphere and / or representations of it. The crucifixion may be a trigger, IDK and am just guessing.
It seems to me, you might want to be concerned of other possible correlations or imposed presuppositions if those that contributed to your early sexual church-related experiences were pedophiles. Your wise girlfriend offered a remarkable insight, yet you might want to seek further counseling from someone more affiliated with the gay community and these matters. Your frank openness suggests you have come a long way.
I can not condemn anyone, and I forgive perpetrators for they know not what they do (grace), but no one needs to condone or excuse inappropriate behaviors that take advantage of someone in a compromised position. You can forgive someone and still hold them accountable and responsible for their actions. If you were all young people exploring... it might be a different matter. I'd talk to someone with much more insight than me.
In my own personal experiences it may be difficult to identify our own suppressed angers because they have been there so long. Resolving our repressed issues can bring us more joy... and sometimes that can be done by reading / discussing / listening to / of stories of others journeys of reconciliation within, to similar circumstances. Isn't being in perfect peace and perfect love our end goal?
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Linda
Jason, I'm sure I've answered this but what happened to it? Anyway, I'm no wise sage, and I'm no expert either. Just guessing, you may have made a subconscious correlation between your early sexual experiences and religion. The crucifixion being one of the most important aspects of the Christian religion may be a trigger. Since you seem to have some concern about it, why don't you talk to someone that has academic training in helping you understand such matters? I wouldn't be surprised if you could get professional insights for free somewhere.
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Carl Elfstrom
The communion wafers aren't very appealing either. Couldn't they at least put a little salt in them?
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Carl Elfstrom
I wouldn't mind the communion wine if they'd give me a lot more of it. How else could I sit through an entire christian sermon without laughing my ass off. Well, they won't let me smoke weed in church, and the bible doesn't even mention it. I'd like to see a show of hands of how many ministers would like to see the prolific Christians run off thi s blog. I bet it wouldn't be hard to do, and we'd have a great time doing it. Then we can get on with much more truly spiritual work. If you have doubts, just follow my lead. I won't bow down to any of their dizzy bull.
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angel
OMG! You couldn't have contacted the company to report this and try to handle this with the company first? It's a major company, they could have found out who did this, fired them and had your programs overnight ed and you would have had them the next day! I'm so sick of people being so over dramatic and doing frivolous lawsuits because one idiot decides he wants to be an idiot! And I'm not saying this because I'm "anti-gay", my oldest daughter is transgender and dating a man before having her surgery, so I don't really care. If people are happy with each other, I say leave them alone and let them be happy. If it's against your beliefs, then don't believe in it, and leave them alone.It does suck, but everyone and their mother has been discriminated against or had mean things done to them for one reason or another, but over the last decade or so people want to throw tantrums in the street and sue companies for stupid reasons all in the name of "they offended me". Everyone is offended over something, so get over it!
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Professor
It is so sad that Christians would become the accuser and still call themselves Christian. They do not see beyond the plank. They support discrimination by getting special benefits, tax and otherwise based on their marital status. They have taken something of God, and have given it to Caesar. Now they are surprised when the people who are discriminated against are asking Caesar to give them equal rights. Christians point out that Gays can not change God's definition of marriage but it was the Christians who gave God's Holy institution to Caesar. This same thing goes on with the Drug War as well. If your heart is still in the wrong place, God will not reveal the truth to you. So Babble all you want it still lands on deaf ears.
Greetings all! I find this posting disgraceful to the gay community. That garbage should not have been sent to the couple. They wish to wed by their own consent and should be left alone to do so without any crap to the contrary. Lets stop the persecution of the gays and just let them live freely in this society. I am gay myself and fully support the gay community. We are people too. As long as we are law abiding and respectable citizens, we deserve equal rights and respect from the overall populace. I love and respect all people. And I deserve the same love and respect from others. Shalom, and have a wonderful and joyous new year!
Shot yourself in the foot when you referred to gays as "respectable."
Clay,upon what are you basing that comment? "Assuming" you are trying to be a respectable person yourself, the foundation for that comment is elusive.
bet they are just making the stuff about the pamphlets up... the last gay couple who sued for something like this got a summary judgement (eg without the expense or time of a trial) of over $139,000!! For an EZ payoff like that I would make up a BS story too!
More respectful than you judging.
Right on!
Excellent observation!
My friend, God Loves you and doesn’t want you to die. Jesus said in Luke 13:3 unless you repent,you will perish. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 makes it clear that you will not get into Gods Kingdom living a homosexual lifestyle. I would recommend you read Romans chapter 1 as well. I hope and pray you will ask the Lord to forgive you. Ask the Lord into your life today. You will never stand at the judgment saying you didn’t know. You have just been told! Jesus would say you can’t serve two masters. So if you’re not serving God, by default , you are serving Satan. It doesn’t matter if you believe this or not. Not believing it just makes it easier for Satan and demons. They don’t have to worry about you, you’re in their hip pocket and no threat to them.
Stop quoting the old testament, foo. Jesus did away with all that crap.
Jason, You're Biblically ignorant! Jesus 'fulfilled' the Old Testament, NOT did away with it! Pull your head out!
Bob the Bullshyter.
RE: "(we are to) judge and evaluate their actions, motives, etc" You pulled that out of your ass, not the bible. Jesus said "mind the plank in your eye" and "judge not" - not the blasphemous crap you just spewed.
RE: "Jesus ‘fulfilled’ the Old Testament, NOT did away with it" Jesus did away with the stupid rules and he fulfilled the promises and prophecies of the OT. The former is the reason we do not have to follow all of the stupid rules (no shellfish, no pork, no clothes woven from 2 types of thread, death for: adultery, disrespectful teens; women must stay outside while they are on the rag)
Please pull your head out of whoever's ass you keep it in.
The thing I dislike most about most 'so-called Christians' is the staggering depth of their ignorance where their own religion is concerned...
Bob, how did Jesus actually "fulfill" the OT, in your own words? No parroting words from the Bible or what your pastor said... in your own words to show you understand what you are saying.
IMO, Jesus didn't "do away with all that crap" but the OT laws were no longer in effect. If you have a testament of beliefs and then you write another one, the first one is no longer relevant and the new one takes priority. Even so, IMO, there are some very good teachings in the OT.
The very first rule in the OT is to never condemn. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil produced the ability to judge, and the forbidden fruit of judgment is condemnation. Eve tasted condemnation when the serpent said she would be like God, a presupposition she wasn't good enough as she was. Wanting to be like the Gods, Eve talked to Adam and their eyes were opened... they knew they were crafty and came from an animal like nature. They hid their genitals, that which showed they were born animals, not perfect like Gods. God asked Adam what happened, he said it was the woman God had given him. God asked Eve, and she said the serpent beguiled her. We've been blaming someone else, God, or the devil made us do it instead of being accountable and responsible for our own actions. Condemnation takes away the will to thrive, which brings death. The rest of the Bible is trying to teach us that we too are Gods, as in the beginning it is said that we were ALL made in the image of God... ALL of us. Jesus said, "what you do to the least of these, you do unto me."
IMO, there are still some good fables in the OT.
re: " in your own words to show you understand what you are saying."
Well, no way that's going to happen, Linda, any more than if you asked him to raise the dead or resolve the debate regarding the doctrine of consubstantiation vs transubstantiation in Latin.
"Well, no way that’s going to happen, Linda, any more than if you asked him to raise the dead or resolve the debate regarding the doctrine of consubstantiation vs transubstantiation in Latin."
Jason, ye of little faith. Anyway, I could not ask him to resolve that debate because I don't have a clue what it is. I'd be lucky to say it right in English.
I use to quote verses and thought I knew what I was saying . Then someone asked me to say it in my own words and I came to realize I was just programmed. The Bible never says to have "blind" faith but to have faith of a mustard seed... IOW, to "consider" something. Once you "reflect on" something, then you can understand.
Researching the manuscript from which the KJV was taken, often reveals things in a different light. You'd be surprised at how many Biblical stories don't say what most people think they say. The common misconception of the Temple of Babel story is laughable, but making other people's lives hell over a misunderstanding is not.
If I can understand what the Bible says more accurately, then so can Bob, better than me. At least research words to their prime root meanings and understand the times it was written before judging anyone based on it.
Stay away from condemning anyone, #1 rule, because that takes away the will to thrive, which brings death. It is far more advantageous to lift each other up, as we are all in this together. It is interesting that Christ only yelled at the judgmental religious right, calling them vipers, claiming they were like a bowl you clean only on the outside, and the harlots would see the kingdom of God before they did. But, if we judge the judgmental religious right, we are no better than they are.
You know being gay has nothing to do with sin because you are in a position to realize this by common sense. I was hoping Bob would answer my questions because it would start him thinking about it instead of responding with a programmed answer like I use to do about other topics.
Linda, Once again your wisdom and skill as a wordsmith has deeply moved and impressed me. And, in this instance - appropriately shamed me... You are so right. I need to treat battles of words the same way I do physical battles... That is, fighting/attack is a last resort that is only employed once no other more constructive alternative exists... I am sure there is a cool Sun Tsu quote that sums up that point much more eloquently than I did... Thank you for contributing to my growth as a human being! J+F PS: The transubstantiation debate is the centuries old controversy (that got many burned at the stake, back in the day) regarding whether communion bread and wine (the Eucharist) literaly becomes the flesh and blood of Christ once consecrated and consumed... PPS: I say no - that is just symbolic and allegorical... I also say: "EWWW! GROSS!!!" lol :)
Jason, thank you for your very gracious and undeserving compliment.
I get the impression you are a really good professional advocate. It seems it would be rather difficult to distinguish between condemnation and putting someone in their place, especially when skilled at protecting someone from another person's very hurtful and misguided ways.
Maybe what is deemed an asset in our careers spills over into other areas of our life? That probably happens a lot in debating forums. It's hard for me to totally compartmentalize my life. I realize we are ALL just doing the best we can, including me.
Jesus said one and only one important thing to give us freedom 1- Destroy the synogogue of satan- means eveyrthing that is not of the blood of Christ is ANTI CHRIST -PERIOD NO INTERPRETATION! thats the diff between fake christians and true Christians which only proclaim the blood of CHrist and nothing else EVERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR DONT BE FOOLED BY THE FAKE DEVILS OF SATAN!!
Dr Mike. I am pretty sure that Jesus said more that 1 important thing...
Dr. Mike, could you cite your sources? I don't think we are reading the same Bible. Could you explain what that means in your own words? What does "not of the blood of Christ" mean? What is a synagogue of Satan? Thanks.
If you believe in God and Satan, Jesus and Holy Ghosts, Angels and Demons, Saints and Sinners, Heaven and Hell, then you believe in a multi-god mythology. It is NOT a "one-god" mythology. It is exactly like the mythologies from ancient Greece, Rome, Scandinavia and China.
Today's religion is tomorrow's mythology.
Thank you for stating the fact they ignore. It is like their Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. They make up some story about how that is only one God, but no way can it be, especially when it I stated He sits at the right hand of the Father.
They are filled with hate and rage based on what they make up and claim to base it in the Bible, but they find most of their defenses in the Ol Testament and not in the Gospels.
Dude.... Look up the meaning of the word allegory. Jesus spoke in parables and metaphors much of the time - so does the Bible. The OT don't mean shyte anymore. There is good reason to consider only the words of Jesus - all the rest is written by humans - and humans are very stupid and very much full of BS.
So Paul didn't like homosexuals, did Jesus actually say anything about them?
James Nusky, why should I or anyone else believe Bible verses or you and your ilk against homosexuality when you have always made "God" say whatever you wanted "Him" to say and used "Him" to "sanction" and "justify" your own prejudices and bigotry? Just as though "He" were a big ventriloquist's dummy sitting on your laps! I wouldn't trust you for directions across town, much less to tell me what God thinks about anything or how to get to Heaven, and neither would any other sensible person! That would be just too gullible and naive!
Gay Marriage is a complete abomination! Read Your Bible
God does not judge who are we to judge he good book said love not heat or judge
Do not judge others hate is not teaching of any true religion love should be spread to all humans God does not judge so who are we to judge. If free of sin throw the first stone.
You don't know the Bible. We're not judge the person, but as Jesus did, judge and evaluate their actions, motives, etc. AND what about the 'judgement seat of Christ' that's in the future?
Bob the Bullshyter.
RE: "(we are to) judge and evaluate their actions, motives, etc" You pulled that out of your ass, not the bible. Jesus said "mind the plank in your eye" and "judge not" - not the blasphemous crap you just spewed.
RE: "Jesus ‘fulfilled’ the Old Testament, NOT did away with it" Jesus did away with the stupid rules and he fulfilled the promises and prophecies of the OT. The former is the reason we do not have to follow all of the stupid rules (no shellfish, no pork, no clothes woven from 2 types of thread, death for: adultery, disrespectful teens; women must stay outside while they are on the rag)
Please pull your head out of whoever's ass you keep it in.
The thing I dislike most about most 'so-called Christians' is the staggering depth of their ignorance where their own religion is concerned...
Bob, where does Jesus or the NT say we are to judge other people's actions? Where does the NT say we are to condemn anyone for anything?
The OT was the "word" of the law, and in the NT we were not made to serve the law but the law is to serve us. More important than the law, mere words on paper, is the "intent" of the law, the purpose of the law.
That's why Jesus questioned the pious religious right when they condemned him for healing someone on the Sabbath... wouldn't the religious right free their own oxen if it were stuck in a ditch on the Sabbath? If not, that would be craziness. Think about it.
Reverend Vic??? Are you really? How inappropriate and unloving. Have YOU read the right Bible? Shame on you!!! You should be embarrassed!
so is shrimp and polyester fabric - don't let me catch you down the shore macking on clams casino ... sinner
Didn't Jesus tell us not to judge Where is the teachings of Jesus does he say - hate gays? When we judge anyone and fail to have love in our hearts we are no longer connected to Jesus. Funny how so many professed Christians ignore the most basic teaching of Jesus.
Religions is the worst of all perversions, addictions, weapons and abominations. -- Captain Gaydar, 2012
There may be some truth in that, Quasi. It's definitely worth pondering.
I understand Christian see homosexuality as a sin, but they act like is THE worst sin while the Bible does not rate it so. 1 Corinthians 6:9–10 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous2 will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,3 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. Are you casting stones?
Judith, the original manuscript the Bible was translated from does NOT say homosexuality. Check your KJV for starters. Plus you have to take the writings as they were written over 2000 years ago. Check the original manuscript from which the KJV was taken and you will see a very different picture. (I tend to use www.biblestudytools.com, select KJV, put the setting on Strong Numbers.)
This is referenced in the KJV as an effeminate, or young male prostitute more commonly known and practiced back then as pederasty. It is when a young male from a poor home is given to a successful businessman to teach him to be successful in business in exchange for sexual favors.
Sin is not because of the act but because of what it does to people. In this case, it steals the dignity from the boy and shows no compassion from the abuser. Intimacy shared between 2 consenting gay adults has nothing to do with stealing dignity or lacking compassion. Being gay does NOTHING to hurt the other person or their self. Think about it.
Anyway, the practice of pederasty was eventually eliminated and most people don't know what it is any more so the word homosexuality replaced it. When you see homosexuality in the NT, it almost always follows prostitution because it is referencing pederasty. Changing it to the word homosexuality was a bad call when the Bible was translated into English.
As I've said before, I am totally heterosexual, so is my immediate family, so I have no dog in this fight... I just want to know the truth... and the truth has to make sense.
Linda . . . . "I just want to know the truth . . . " That's hard to believe! You said in one of your comment: "The 1st rule in the OT is to never condemn . . . . " Now, truthfully, please cite the reference as to where you found this in the OT.
Bob, I just want to know the truth and the truth has to "make sense."
Rule #1, do not eat the forbidden fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Knowing good and evil gave us the ability to judge, and the forbidden fruit of judgment is condemnation. Condemnation takes away the will to thrive, which brings death. Hence the NT says condemnation came unto all men by one man. Equally so, justification unto righteousness came unto all men by one man.
Eve tasted condemnation when the serpent said she could be like God, implying she wasn't good enough as she was. Adam took condemnation to a whole new level, condemning God and the woman God gave him for his fall. Eve then blamed the serpent. We've been blaming / condemning God, someone else, or the devil made us do it ever since, instead of being accountable and responsible for our own actions. I guess we wanted to be seen perfect, like the gods. Yet, God said he made us in His image, so we are already in the image of God and we fell for the lie.
How the forbidden fruit came to be known as an apple is beyond me. It has no Biblical support whatsoever.
Corinthians is only the word of man, not god or Christ, and therefore has no place in the bible or in Christianity at all
YEP!!! Likewise for a whole sh1tload of the books of the Bible!
YEP!!! Likewise for a whole $h1tl0ad of the books of the Bible!
Jesus didn't write the new testament, and wasn't even trying to start a religion. He never condemned homosexuality, and lived with twelve men who gladly left their wives and families to be with him. The Bible didn't mention them having relations with women ever again. I bet if gay marriage was legal then they would have all married each other.
Let's quit paying any attention to Reverend Vic. Everything he says is totally negative.