Manhattan's famed Riverside Church has let Pastor Amy Butler go after she took a group of fellow ministers sex-toy shopping. Pastor Amy was the church's first senior minister in history.
In May, Pastor Amy, two assistant ministers, and a female congregant were in Minneapolis to attend the Festival of Homiletics. During a break in the conference, Pastor Amy sought to see the Minneapolis sights. Apparently not a Mall of America fan, Pastor Amy opted instead to show her companions a different side of the City of Lakes: the Smitten Kitten sex shop. Once inside, the pastor dropped $200 on a bunny-shaped 'Beaded Rabbit' vibrator for the first minister, a single mother celebrating her 40th birthday. She then offered the second - a gay man in a committed relationship - the same. When he politely refused, Pastor Amy settled on purchasing a bounty of pleasure-bringing gadgets for the congregant and herself.
At the checkout counter, Pastor Amy quipped "Is this a church business expense?" to her captive audience as she pulled out the church credit card. However, it is unclear if that was just a joke or if the 'Beaded Rabbit' vibrator was actually charged to the church.
Although Pastor Amy was in high spirits, not everyone was feeling the good vibrations. Both ministers repeatedly expressed how uncomfortable the raunchy outing made them. And sources insist they "felt pressured" to play along, fearing professional retaliation. They eventually filed a formal harassment claim. And church lawyers even hired a third-party investigator to substantiate the various accusations.
More Than Meets the Eye
For Pastor Amy Butler, these harassment charges present particular irony.
Last year, Butler published "From #MeToo to #ChurchToo to #NeverAtChurch." In the article, she claimed a male "lay leader" at Riverside had acted "inappropriately" toward both her and other female staffers. Forbes reported that the church leader Pastor Amy reported was Dr. Ed Lowe. An outside investigation found that he acted inappropriately, gifting Pastor Amy with a bottle of wine and a t-shirt with a vulgar slur printed on it and that he had sent unseemly texts to women in the church.
"Harmful and abusive behavior must be exposed and confronted; this means disciplining employees and community leaders who violate those policies," she wrote.
Still, Pastor Amy's supporters claim Riverside let her go for speaking out against harassment and sexism at the church in the first place.
However, sources close to the investigation maintain that Pastor Amy's position at the church was untenable. They said that the sex-toy incident was just one of "several concerns that the Riverside Church Council had about Amy's judgment."
Misguided Minister?
Butler was the seventh senior minister to serve at Riverside Church, a massive Gothic cathedral renowned for its deep coffers and inter-denominational liberalism. Documents obtained by The Post reveal a cushy five-year contract signed in 2014 and expiring in July. Included were a $250,000 salary, an $8,000 monthly housing allowance and over $55,000 in yearly pension contributions. And now that she's departing, Pastor Amy's severance includes a full year's salary and a number of additional payments for a total nearing $600,000.
Michael Livingston, Riverside's interim minister, broke the news of Pastor Amy's departure during a Sunday sermon on July 7. Several biblical readings, particularly Galatians 6:7, seemed to allude to the incident. "Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap."
Now the church, which has hosted guest speakers as luminous as Martin Luther King, Jr. and Nelson Mandela to preach from their pulpit, is on the look for a new permanent pastor.
Both Pastor Amy and the Riverside Church are being tightlipped on the situation. Was Pastor Amy let go because she crossed the line by taking her assistant pastors sex-toy shopping? Or was it, as her supporters say, because she previously spoke out on sexual harassment within the church?
108 comments
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Liz Dix
True you can be liberal and still liabe. However: FREE WILL. Is also still a prime factor. Average mature adults enter the store. Each had a choice. Even a bad or haphazard choice is still a choice. Even Human slaves have a choice, obey and receive less restrictions or disobey and get beaten. Are the lawyers detractors saying they were force into the story under threat of bodily harm to self or others?
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Liz Dix
I still don't stand by stories half told. We might not ever here the same story twice.
All that being out aside: Our Great Creator endown each and everyone with a Presumptively FREE will. In the United States of America that is still suppose to mean , if you want to or don't. The mature people of that church each individual (or should have) elected to go into the Adult Store for their own reasons. Or perhaps she repurchased fuzzy handcuffs and chained them all up together and March them in by ship lash.
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Liz Dix
First of all My Dear Spiritual Family: I have never in this life said follow me. What I say is walk with me always if our paths like together, as my friend and as a companion. But I have this to say, anyone who speaks out is in fact a leader at one point. If it fact the lady in question is not let her one hand know what the other is doing and doing so under the collar of her church, that is not a good thing to do. I will not set in judgement over partial facts.
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Wayward73
Pastor Amy is a bit two faced. She writes about sexual impropriety in the and then commits an act of sexual impropriety against others. I wonder what her next book is going to be about.
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Wayward73
'sexual impropriety in the Church' that is supposed to say.
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Liz Dix
Perhaps the fault lies in the core beliefs of that particular segment of a UNIVERSAL church. For example my own personal beliefs would only meet with 10% of anyone following my foot prints in the sand. But the the majors belief that some High Authority made everything, and made it became that one LOVES; us, creations and all its diversities. Fits the majority of us. If someone were of the opinion that the universe is all black and white according to whatever Holy Book is on line at the time, believes all apples or red and all grapes are purple. Was this pastor making a point that our Creator gave us good will.and willingness to enjoy sex , and if not anytime I last or present destroyed the will to Love, Cherish and Nourish ourselves and each other and enjoy doing it., or make us with certain naturally according coming into heat season as do all other life forms on this planet.
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Liz Dix
That is true ?. Any way the DIVINE enters your life, and brings you to your FOREVER HOME AND FOREVER LOVER is the Ultimate Bliss in unenlightened life. ??? GOD (DESS) IS LOVE
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Secretary3rd
This opens a new prase in her life. Maybe it is a way for her in saving herself for Jesus. In one hand she reads the words of Jesus in her other hand she feels the pleasure of those words. Guess it is how you feel the word of Jesus that counts.
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chomei
$250,000 salary and all those benefits, what kind of a church is this? I guess there is no poverty, no homeless in NYC.
NY is an expensive place, but this is ridiculous, and so were the pastor's actions!
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Pastor Bob
“Harmful and abusive behavior must be exposed and confronted; this means disciplining employees and community leaders who violate those policies,”
Her own comments after had received what she considered an inappropriate gift from a senior leader, according to the article.
So yes she crossed the line she herself had drawn. It’s Khama.
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Arnie
The real definition of sexual and morality is with intent to do harm. There was nothing immoral about going into the sex shop. Definitely a lack of good judgment on her part with that said. Americans have always been sexually constipated ,
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Mike Hempstead
My only problem with this is the use of the church credit card for a personal purchase.
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Rick
Can't picture Jesus bringing His followers into that shop. Maybe she made a mistake.
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Lori
Since Jesus never wrote anything down we'll never know for sure. It's all hear-say
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Rev. B.H.
Ah, how true! "Jesus' words" are like you writing down your great,great, great,great grandfather's beliefs from memory.
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Oh Mo
Just because YOU can't picture it doesn't make it factual, only wishful on your part.
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Wayward73
I can, he was a pretty wild and crazy guy.
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P. Tantius
The only obscene issue is the salary. More like the pope in Rome?
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steve
If it wasn't for my parent having sex and the grace of God I wouldn't be able to spread His word. Go forth and multiply. If toys help to that end or help alleviate what some would consider bad or sinful behaviour. Great
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Rodney Whitt
Once again as Christians we have allowed Satan to invade our Church's and here is what happens people drop out quit coming then Church it self doors are closed and locked. What a disgrace to our profession and priesthood. Due to where they have no Faith in us. Shame shame on those that profess but doesn't have the goods.
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Francine
Why is a NUN depicted in the lead in for this story?
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Bruce Ryan
there is always more to the story ... but I think that a ministers position includes openly talking about sex and sexuality and encouraging their congregation and the people they influence to explore their sexuality and have fun doing it ... I think it’s awesome to communicate and have that kind a relationship with your congregation and the people around you to be able to go to a sex shop have a little fun buy some toys and encourage people to have fun in their sexual relationships .
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Michelle
It seems to me that purchasing a sex toy is preferable to going out and having sex with someone your not with. Abstaining from fleshly desires makes no sense. We have this need and using sex toys is a safe non-sinful way to satisfy it.
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Karen
Is going into a sex store an appropriate church outing? It appears she was on WORK time. For most of us, being intimidate, either with another human being or a sex toy is private. Putting colleagues in that position was self serving. I think she is working on her own shame related to this topic. This "selfie" generation keeps quantifying how selfish our society has become. Of course she shouldn't have done it.
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Paul barker
Not surprised , I'm a spiritualist pastor we have had same sex marriages for years I have know so called Christian folk who are sexually repressed so sex shops fulfill a need in a person's life , I don't believe in sexual oppression at all and have seen the result in church leaders and other people's lives
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Maurice Slaunwhite
way back in the days of Christ there was no such a thing as sex toys. It tells us fornication to the body of any kind before Marriage is an Abomination to the Lord. When a couple is at a sex shop together that is completely personal and not to be made public when they are Married which is absolutely between the married couple and God unless they are in counseling and the Lord Guiding them. Amen God bless you all and be right with the Lord who created you.
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Dan Atatakai
Maurice - Sorry, but not true. Sex toys have been around for thousands of years. Obviously, they were not battery operated. China, for example, had carved dildos dated back more than 2,000 years ago. Remember, most cultures around the world did not see sex as being anything "forbidden" or "an abomination."
If you were a horny woman or man living in Ancient Greece, you probably didn't have a slew of sex shops downtown, but you did have plenty of bread — which could be fashioned into a perfect bread dildo. Folks living back in those days reportedly didn't identify as heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual — they just indulged whatever pleasure they fancied. Bread dildos were used by men and women as a sexual aid, according to Vicki Leon, author of The Joy of Sexus: Lust, Love & Longing in the Ancient World — a biodegradable sexual aid, which made them responsible sexy people. That, too, was more than 2,000 years ago.
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kimberly
Pagans had no need for sex toys....they used women as sex toys for their temples.
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Dan Atatakai
Kim - Do you know the definition of "pagan"? Somehow, I do not believe you do.
Again, with information supplied, it has been shown that sex toys have been around for at least 2,000 years.
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The Doctor
I was not created I was always and am forever. Your weak cowardly baby killing deity is not worthy of any adoration.
Oh and there have been dildos made of all sorts of materials dating back since long before the writing of the bible.
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kimberly
Karen....you were born. Prior to that you didn't exist. After you die you're dead. And dead is dead.
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Lionheart
Actually, that’s not not true. Objects used for sex have been around for thousands of years Maurice. Here’s just one example.
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/07/27/ancient_phallus/
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Carl Elfstrom
I love the way this blog is teaching me to be so much more spiritual, and better prepared for the ministry. No more tears! It's just a hand in the bush, in the bush, in the bush...
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kimberly
I wouldn't want to rain on your parade but if anything goes in marriage and it is the end-all and be-all of sex, why need counseling?
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The Doctor
While I feel no need to shed a tear nor a worry over this woman, she seems to be very well off and secure atm, and I do have to wonder why do something that sounds worthy of an episode of sex in the city with random associates rather then close friends, I dont think anything she did was wrong, immoral, nor worse then a social flub.
I mean I tend to reserve such trips as more of a bit of shopping foreplay before the nights main events begin.
Really though I think she just mistook people she worked with as more then what they were. Maybe she lacks in actual friends so does not really understand the difference?
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Carl Elfstrom
At least she didn't force them to go in the back room with her. The one where the clerk has to press a buzzer for the door to open. It sounds to me like she was just having fun, and some people took it the wrong way. Ministers don't have to have the morals of Puritans. I damn sure don't, but some backward people think we must. It could have been God's way of telling Amy that she had outgrown that church, and was being called to move on in a different way. Maybe she'll start a church for more open minded people, and give all of her new congregants sex toys to play with during their church services. Right on, Amy! Go for the gusto! Hip hip hooray!
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BRIAN
What she and anybody else does is between her and God. Yes as leaders of the Church we have morals and standards that we must abide by plus you have to remember we have a congregation. (Which I remind you) has kids as well. We MUST conduct ourselves accordingly in the house of God. I know she was not doing this in the Church (The sex shop) was not at the Church but at the same time how many members of the congregation and people in general saw this? Do I think she should be ousted from the Church YES.....as a leader but not as a member.
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Dan Atatakai
Brian - Why should she be ousted from the church as a leader? Is she not allowed to have sexual urges and should be chaste, maybe?
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kimberly
she should be ousted because she's a pervert.
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Dan Atatakai
kimberly - Why do you call her a pervert? What is it about sex which makes you so uncomfortable? Do you think that sex is a perversion of life?
Why is the US, especially, so "up-tight" about sex, instead of realizing that it is part of nature, of which we are all part?
What I would be concerned about is not about her going into a "sex shop" but that of her salary and other forms of income. The amounts she is receiving his horrific, imho. Where is she living? Trump Tower?
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William Waugh
This looks like another example of preaching to the wrong choir. Like the wiccan that was totally clueless why the catholic church wasn't the place to be open about the horned god of the hunt or whatever. ......seems like, it could be a calculated exit strategy.
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Lori
It sounds like a bit of fun was not embraced by the others.....or....the sexual harassment was at the root. The answer was not in the article, so we have no way of knowing.
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Dr. Tinsley Keefe
The sexy shop trip was inappropriate, as a professional....but going to a sex shop in and of itself is totally normal....
This part is what I have a problem with.....religion is such a big business omg!
The Post reveal a cushy five-year contract signed in 2014 and expiring in July. Included were a $250,000 salary, an $8,000 monthly housing allowance and over $55,000 in yearly pension contributions. And now that she's departing, Pastor Amy’s severance includes a full year’s salary and a number of additional payments for a total nearing $600,000.
*Is this what Jesus or any of the spiritual teachers had in mind??!”
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kimberly
Nice women don't go to sex shops. Have you ever been in one? They're seedy and they're mostly along truck routes or in horrific downtown locations. Religion IS big business. Ironically, when Jesus said "I will build my church", he was not speaking of perpetuating innumerable religious organizations. He was speaking of his return when those very few elect would rise to meet him in the air. Men and women recorded in the Bible such as Enoch, Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the OT prophets, the NT apostles, Paul, Ruth, etc. People of faith with whom God dealt with directly during their life. The "elect" are NOT so-called "Christians". Jesus' church will be comprised of members who can no longer know death. Jesus church was never an organization that wouldn't die out. big diff.
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Dan Atatakai
I have visited only two in my life. They were both very reputable and clean, with the proprietors dressed as if they were member of the LDS church.
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Pastor Jane
kimberly, "Nice women don't go into sex shops." My question for you is, have you ever been in a sex shop? And by "sex shop" I mean an establishment dedicated to providing toys, clothing, and accsessories for consenting adults to use in consensual sexual activity. These seedy sex shops along truck routes you describe sound like a different sort of place altogether.
I am a nice woman. I have visited and purchased items from sex shops. None of these shops were seedy. In fact, these shops were tasteful, clean and the employees were professional. It seems to me that your personal hang-ups about sex in general have caused you to judge this situation from an angle that doesn't address the real problem here.
I agree with the earlier post by Jim in which he says that he believes Pastor Amy was fired from her position because she spoke out about sexual harrassment. Even today, even in what is known to be a multi-denominational, liberal congregation, there are people who just can't handle the fact that sexual harrassment is an issue. Sweep it under the rug, remove the people speaking out against it, take consensual sexual activity, hit it with a biblical quote and turn it into something ugly in an effort to control the masses. Sound familiar? It's history, folks.
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Lori
Yes, Pastor Jane, it does sound familiar. Well said.
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Frank Villari
Great point!
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Mark Hannon
I don't know why people want to share every part of their lives. I would rather not know about everyone's secrets.
I am sure, though, that many male ministers have overshared like this.
Doesn't make it better for this fair play turn-around.
I will admit to this behavior as a much younger person but I outgrew the interest.
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Lionheart
Needs must! We obviously don’t know everything about her performance (pun intended) as a Minister. There was perhaps more to it regarding their decision to let her go. Altar candles might have been a better, and cheaper, option.
Priests somehow don’t seem to have that issue.
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Maurice Slaunwhite
Thank God he is going to judge this one. Sex toys yet !
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Dan Atatakai
Maurice - Exactly what kind of a problem do you have with an individual human being purchasing sex toys? There is nothing in the Bible which claims that sex toys are an abomination.
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preacher richard h.
1 john 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.
Galatians 5 :16-17
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
Amen
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Lionheart
"You are protected, in short, by your ability to love!"
Albus Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince
"The ones that love us never really leave us. You can always find them, in here."
Sirius Black, Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
Awomen
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kimberly
Lion....I prefer to quote from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Huge fan
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Lionheart
Go for it! Any is better than a Bible quote.
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kimberly
Lion...……...lets quote from the book of Jasher.
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Carl Elfstrom
I think I'll buy a Satanic Bible, especially so I can quote it on this blog.
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Dan Atatakai
Richard - I happen to disagree with both passages. These are one of the many reasons why western Christianity seems to have a great deal of difficulty with sexuality. Boastful pride of life has nothing to do with sexuality, by the way. If it were not for lust, we would not be able to procreate, thereby ending the human species.
How is expressing love through sex "against the Spirit"? I disagree that they are in opposition, but work together in harmony.
Of course, as you may have already surmised, these, along with many other concepts found in Abrahamic faiths, are why I have not prescribed to any of the three Abrahamic faiths at all. To think that humanity is born flawed, for just one of many examples, his a horrific concept, causing many people to be guilt-ridden.
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kimberly
Atatat....yes....the Bible does not state mankind is born with a "sin nature". If that were so man would not be redeemable. And yes....teaching such a horrible doctrine has led many to be filled with unjustified guilt.
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Lionheart
Sin is a stupid word. The Bible promotes rape, slavery, incest, polygamy, human sacrifice, forced abortion, kidnapping, human trafficking, theft, arson, cattle rustling, oppression, infanticide, and genocide, while condemning sins like non-creative love, wearing blended fabrics, and eating shellfish.
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Dan Atatakai
Kim - Sorry, but the Bible DOES teach that humans are born with a "sin nature."
Bible teaches that we are all born sinners with sinful, selfish natures. Unless we are born again by the Spirit of God, we will never see the kingdom of God (John 3:3).
Humanity is totally depraved; that is, all of us have a sinful nature that affects every part of us (Isaiah 53:6; Romans 7:14).
There are many other issues I have with the teachings of the Bible. The issue of killing apostates, for example, is a horrible concept. Stoning to death unruly or intoxicated children, having two she-bears mauling to death 42 children merely because they were teasing a bald-headed man, etc. Not exactly what I would call a "loving God", let alone understanding.
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kimberly
atatatat…………...Those passages have nothing to do with physical birth dear. Rom 7:14 is Paul saying HE struggles with sin. Not "we". Read verse 22....he delights in the law after the INWARD man. Isa 53:6 is about why Messiah must come....it is about "going astray". Not about being born evil. v1 uses the "arm of the Lord" which is the equivalent to "Son of God". John 3:3 is about the resurrection. Not about physical birth.
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kimberly
Lion...the bible doesn't promote any of that. Quite literally, many of the old testament laws were quite democratic and those exact same laws can be found in great detail in the United States Code of Regulations. It wasn't the law which was repugnant but those who took it and ran with it.
And as troops of robbers wait for a man, so the company of priests murder in the way by consent: for they commit lewdness.
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Dan Atatakai
Kimberly - If it were not about literal birth, why is it that the Bible is so vague so as it could be taken in myriad ways? Notice that even with your interpretation, it is a "definite maybe" and not firm in its meaning.
If it were not relating to birth, at what age do you believe one become "born in sin"?
Regarding your comments to Lion, I big to differ. The Bible DOES promote such issues. You claim that a lot of the bible is about directions which are democratic in nature? How is slavery a democratic system? How is the overtaking and killing everyone (except the young girls in that society to be used as sex slaves) should be killed, and issue of democracy? How is the killing of unruly children democratic? How is it democrating to kill anyone who becomes an apostate anything democratic? Islam's Qur'an does not demand death to an apostate, but the Bible does.
I am looking forward toward reading your responses.
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kimberly
Dan...methinks you've fallen into the Lion's den. Not sure where you get such ideas.
There is no generic "sinful nature" one is born with. That phrase is only found in the NIV. Not in the KJV. And it is Paul saying HIS flesh. Meaning he knew himself to be mortal (flesh). Extrapolating Paul's musings to the generic means that mankind is simply born mortal. John explains this in John 3:6.
The Bible describes how the nation of Israel originated. Much of the law they were given by God isn't democratic but it is where many ideas of democracy originated. And, the story of Israel's origin is the story of how God chose a people and prepared the way for Messiah to come into the world as a sacrificial lamb. Pure enough to save humanity.
Indentured servitude (not racial slavery) was to care for the poor and those who today would be otherwise destitute.
There was no "overtaking and killing everyone except young girls". That is a Muslim directive. There was war and in a few instances, the people whom they went to war with were so perverted that not even the animals were spared. It was a time of displacing trespassers from the land promised to Abraham and his progeny. And, it was a form of manifest destiny just as happened in America in the early days.
Little kids were not killed. Lev 20:2 The law was applied to young people as with anyone else. There was no "juvenile system". Not unusual.
There were no apostates. Simply because there was no religion. It was a theocracy and national law prevailed. It was a political system based on criminality and operated like one. In contrast, apostasy from Islamic fundamentalism is treated as a crime as well as a sin, an act of treason against the religion punishable with the death penalty.
You need to get your head around the fact that God is a God of the living and nobody who has ever lived has yet to actually die. All will stand together at the resurrection from the grave to face God in the day of judgement. Death will only come to any individual when that person has nothing worth saving.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them (Men) which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him (God) which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna fire...not the grave).
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Dan Atatakai
Kimberly - I take it you have not actually read AND studied the KJV1611 and what it says. All you claim is fallacious, to be the least.
Regarding "only Paul talking about himself", then please explain these passages:
Psalms 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Ecclesiastes 7:20 - For [there is] not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.
Psalms 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Notice even Paul's/Saul's writings state "all men", not just himself.
Because a community has concepts of what is moral and is not, making laws to support these concepts, does not mean they are from Christianity, or even Judaism. You might as well say that Buddhism was based on Christianity, too, if you believe that, even though Buddhism came about some 500 years BEFORE the rabbi Jesus.
Yes, there is indentured servitude mentioned in the Bible, but it ALSO talks about slavery. It is not racial slavery, but slavery of anyone taken who was not Jewish and captured in any battle. They were considered property/money to the owners and to be passed down to your children.
Here is where it talks about indentured servitude:
“When you acquire a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years; in the seventh year he shall go free, without payment. If he came single, he shall leave single; if he had a wife, his wife shall leave with him. If his master gave him a wife, and she has borne him children, the wife and her children shall belong to the master, and he shall leave alone.
“But if the slave declares, ‘I love my master, and my wife and children: I do not wish to go free,’ his master shall take him before God. He shall be brought to the door or the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall then remain his slave for life."
This is what you are talking about. Now for NON-Hebrew indentured servants:
Non-Hebrew slaves Leviticus 25:44-46 suggests how Israelites can utilize the full human resources of slaves:
44 As for your male and female slaves whom you may have—you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you. 45 Then, too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they also may become your possession. 46 You may even bequeath them to your sons after you, to receive as a possession; you can use them as permanent slaves. But in respect to your countrymen, the sons of Israel, you shall not rule with severity over one another.
There is clearly no way out for these slaves: they were truly slaves for life. And not just for the life of their owner. They were "property" and would be inherited along with the rest of their deceased owners possessions.
No killing off of societies by the Hebrews? Really?
Let’s take this seriously by quoting a few verses that seem repugnant to me. For example, Deuteronomy 20 contains Yahweh’s instructions about war. If a city does not accept Israel’s offer of peace and open its gates, then “when the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it” (verse13). With regard to other cities, the command is (verse 16), “Do not leave anything that breathes.”
1Kings 1:2
Wherefore his servants said unto him, Let there be sought for my lord the king a young virgin: and let her stand before the king, and let her cherish him, and let her lie in thy bosom, that my lord the king may get heat.
Nothing in the Bible about not killing the virgin girls?
Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man” (Nu.31:15-18)
No apostates, so the Bible does not mention it? Really? How about this?
13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
13:7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
If your brother, son, daughter, wife, or friend asks you to serve another god, one which you haven't known,
13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
Rather, you must kill him.
13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
Sorry, but it does. The Qur'an, on the other hand does not condone any such action. It is forbidden to kill apostates.
The Koran repeatedly mentions freedom of conscience as one of its basic tenets. “There is no compulsion in religion (2:256),” and “Let him who will believe and let him who will disbelieve (18:29).” Belief is mentioned as a matter of personal choice. The next part of the latter verse makes it clear that God - not man - is the sole judge of faith (or the lack thereof) and will reward or punish as He wills in the Hereafter.
You stated:
"You need to get your head around the fact that God is a God of the living and nobody who has ever lived has yet to actually die." Where are they, then? The graveyards are filled with the bodies of many millions of people. I have seen numerous people die in my almost 8 decades of life. My question to you is, "Why do you think nobody has died?"
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kimberly
Dan....Overlaying a presumption onto a passage is not a good way to interpret the Bible. For example you quote Psa 51:5 as "proof" mankind is born with a sinful nature. Such is not the case at all. Read the entire passage to get the crux of the matter...that David is saying he is accountable to God alone and it is to God alone that he asks forgiveness. He is NOT saying that it wasn't his fault because he was born with a "sinful nature". He IS saying that God alone is righteous and he is not. He is NOT making some sort of theological statement.
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Lori
Maurice and Preacher, it appears that yours is a world where the flesh and spirit are divided, according to the biblical writings of men. So I'm guessing you also set yourself apart from the rest of creation because of your beliefs. You see yourself as superior because of your beliefs, and everyone who does not agree with your beliefs is lost, or is to be pitied. Is this what you're saying?
If so, you are also accepting of the destructive energies of God. You're telling us that God is not a God of pure love. God is jealous, vengeful, and has deadly angry outbursts, for these things are also in the bible.
It seems like you're projecting who you are onto the image you perceive as God. There's something wrong with that, don't you think?
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ANTHONY Wayne WILLIAMS
And yet we all sin. Is one sin worse than another? Is it immoral to feel pleasure? If so, then why do we have the ability to feel pleasure? Sins of the flesh are many and we are all sinners. There was but one man that walked this earth who was without sin and He died so that we could be forgiven for ours. It amazes me that there is an issue with the sex toys but not the fact that one of the individuals was a gay man in a relationship. It seems we choose to concentrate on the sin that supports our agenda.
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Paul Rooney
The spirit and the flesh are all one and not separate. We are all working on a balance of both.
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Terrence
Atata.... You are off point. It isn’t that she went to a sex shop, nor that she bought sex toys. The point of consternation, in this instance, it was inappropriate to do so with her work subordinates who felt compelled to accompany her out of fear of retribution in their jobs at the church. To make inferences that this is about western purantinsm is delusional.
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Dan Atatakai
Gary - Did the "subordinates" ever claim that they felt compelled to accompany her out of fear of retribution, or is this your assumption?
To assume is, imho, delusional.
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BOB CLAYTON
I don't think that it was so much a problem that she went too the sex toy store as so much as the people that were with her. Sex has always been part of humanity, but there is an issue of others being "included " unwittingly. Conversely, buying these toys doesn't mean that this woman wanted the unwelcome advances of the other man. In a ever changing world of hypersensitivity people we must accept that the path we walk has become more narrow that it used to be.
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Lionheart
What we don’t know of course is what she purchased at the shop, Everyone is jumping to the conclusion she bought sex toys. I’m sure it didn’t go down too well with the guys when she got back to base with whips, floggers, and handcuffs. ?
Whips and floggers, of course, were very popular around biblical times. Perhaps even Jesus was into it it.
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Pastor William R Larkin
If the sex shop was the real reason for letting Amy go, it's not a immoral. But if she was using church funds is immoral towards the church and all of the perishers.
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Dan Atatakai
It amazes me how "evil" sex seems to be in the west, especially in the US. Why would it be so horrific if a minister, or anyone else, would go into a sex toy store, let alone purchase anything?
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kimberly
We like our leaders to be morally responsible. It's our custom dear.
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Dan Atatakai
Kim - How is it irresponsible to go into a sex shop? What is the specific morality involved? Is it any more irresponsible than eating lobster, wearing polyester, or working on the sabbath?
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kimberly
atata……...you have a whiff of armstrongism about you. In answer to your question.....Acts 21:25
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Dan Atatakai
Kimberly - You referenced Acts 21:25, which reads:
Acts 21:25 New International Version (NIV) 25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.”
How is entering a "sex toy shop" sexually immoral? Do you see sex in general as immoral? If that is the case, why, then, were we designed with such strong sexual urges in order to keep the human animal line going?
Why would you think "sex toys" are immoral? If they bring pleasure, how is that a problem? Are you against chocolate ice cream, too, as that may bring pleasure?
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Lionheart
"Are you against chocolate ice cream, too, as that may bring pleasure?"
Sex with chocolate and ice cream could be a new trend atatakaidanjp. Thanks for the suggestion. ?
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James
Thank you Kimberley for this example of a sanctimonious attitude exemplifying all that is distasteful about so many Christians
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Grand Pastor G
you have a whiff of condescension and self-righteousness about you, ma'am.
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Oh Mo
Kim, good thing you're not a leader.
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Grand Pastor G
Aaaaameeeeeeen Oh Mo, Amen.
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James R.
Morality? If it wasn't for sex you wouldn"t be here! Shed the fear, it is in your DNA to reproduce. Read Virusesof the Mind by Richard Brodie for an eye-opener.
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Frank Villari
It wasn't the trip to the shop inasmuch as it was her making the others uncomfortable with her behavior.
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Dan Atatakai
Frank - In my personal perspective, who on earth cares if it made others uncomfortable? Some people are uncomfortable with red-headed people. Others are with left-handed people. Who cares! Is it not what they do professionally the more important issue?
Regarding the income, so much for the vow of poverty! Good grief! Let me apply for the position!
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Rev. Rene
I am so glad someone also mentioned the income! Is this a calling, or is it just another "career"? If so, let us select the ultimate demagogue, I hear Dr. Trump may be jobless by 2021. As for the rest, no, sex by itself when practiced safely and as a private thing is beautiful and pleasurable. It is a problem, especially as a professional, when it make others uncomfortable and / or is forced in any manner upon any unresponsive recipient.
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Lionheart
Dr Trump isn’t getting paid anyway for his services to this country, but I suspect he’s going to be around for quite a while yet. Thankfully!
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David Williams
I agree with Frank. I think even if an office manager did the same thing, the office manager could be fired. The issue is that Amy made subordinates feel uncomfortable and they felt they had to go along with it for fear of retaliation. People in positions of power abuse that power if they're making their staff feel uncomfortable by taking them to a sex store and trying to buy them gifts.
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Jeff Thompson
No man has dominion over me if you take me to a place where I feel uncomfortable going in I'll just say no thanks I'll wait outside! Something about this story is fishy to me. What we do the actions we take are ours no one can force you to do anything close to this.
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jim
U.S. religious communities, even so-called progressive ones are still puritans at heart. To them, sex is sin.With that said, I believe Pastor Amy was fired for speaking out about sexual harassment and for no other reason.
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Carl Elfstrom
What about those gay, Pagan, nudist colonies in the Redwoods, Jim?
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Joshua
A pastor as I understand has no bounds on sex toys but what she did was inappropriate and inexcusable outside her own home even more so for someone performing God's work
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James Robert Gioielli
It was bringing employees that created the problem. No one would have cared had she gone on her own. You could not do this at IBM or anywhere else without creating an issue.
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Paul Rooney
Our ministers are human beings too and have interests just like all of us. I am talking about people that live without the guilt that has been instilled on them by those that interpret the moral laws to an extreme. Judge not lest you be judged. We are all sisters, brothers, and friends and should instill our beliefs on another spirit. That is not honoring the law of free will.
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Paul Rooney
Correction!! We are all sisters, brothers, and friends and should NOT instill our beliefs on another spirit.
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Crystal Rene blackwood
Also I'd like this ecclesiastical one of the chapters in scripture speaks of evil inventions I called those type of things evil inventions.
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Oh Mo
What makes them evil? You're desire to control others through faux religious "convictions"?
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kimberly
Sounds like a buncha perverts to me. hilarious
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Rev. B.H.
These were adult ministers she took along, not children -- I doubt they caved to "pressure" to play along. I wouldn't have, would you? Not that sex toys, shops, or actual sex bothers me. (Maybe the sex toys were for Dr. Ed Lowe so he could leave her alone?)
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Grand Pastor G
The Smitten Kitten is a fantastic place (being from MN) supporting women's health. Was it a good choice to go WITH folks from this conference? Probably not so much. She could have gone by herself if she really wanted to hit the shop, but not with subordinates. If I was with her, didn't feel comfortable going, then I wouldn't go. I friggin' hate MOA and all malls. UPTOWN and NE are MUCH more fun places to bring folks, even South Mpls. I'm with you Rev. bIGhIG :)
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Liz Dix
When we follow our Creator one Supreme Commandment: TO LOVE AND CARE FOR YOURSELVES AND OTHERS; THEREBY GIVING LOVE AND CARE. TO ME. Loving one's entire self from the dirt that fills the cracks to platinum that coats the sky piercing symbol. By brining light into an area that controls most life on this planet, you care forward as the Creator directs. She did not do wrong. If you took a bunch of well educated folks into a wonderful of books and told them to get a book to enjoy later, you would pay for it. 50% of the people would find a nice cheap book, (they knew you had limited funds) another 30% would get what they want regardless of cost. The remaining 20would get something to show, while they had what they really wanted shipped to them. Morale here being that let those among us without sin build a monument to themselves, And then have it so blessed that the birds of the air did not roost on it.
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Grand Pastor G
Gurrrrrrrrrrrlllll! You are spot on.
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Milanko Djurdjulov
Your right it's interesting that it's getting easier to know the works of darkness. Call it what you want but these people may not enter the narrow road. I just can't stop wondering who they serve. You canbe liberal but not liable. Deacon Milanko
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Sounds like a lady who knows how to negotiate a pretty good contract. Anyone consider she may want to have been let go? The contract is up this year anyway. At worst a case of bad judgement. What's it to ya? What's all the Hub Bub?